(What follows are not the views of the Editors, but worthy of debate)
Beloveds,
As promised (now ages ago), my version of a new look at Sheela. The concern is not for Sheela’s personal suffering — I’m sure she has dealt with that on her own — but rather about cleaning out an unnecessary piece of debris in our collective sannyas iconography, such as it may be. She was made into a scapegoat (yes, by Osho) and that designation now serves none of us well, if it ever did, diminishing everyone really.
To relieve Sheela of some of the blame that has been heaped on her over the years means that Osho will have to be assigned some responsibility for at least some of the actions attributed to her. This need not be a big stretch. In fact, Osho has himself taken the responsibility for goings-on at the Ranch in a global way, declaring that we were all asleep and he is awake, so he shouldn’t have gone into such a long siilence and left an asleep person in charge, etc . . . (sorry, can’t find the quote). But that bland generalization is easy to brush aside, while specifics still have a way of eddying stubbornly in our collective unexamined crapstream, so . . . It will require a bit of attention span but I believe it is worthwhile.
The most significant source material in this shifting of responsibility will be Osho’s own words, but first a few organizing thoughts, what this tract below is and isn’t: Not under consideration in this is her personality, nor any dictatorial or whatever way she treated anybody, nor the already explored aspect of our own complicity in sheepishly carrying out her orders. Though that acts in a parallel way to relieve her of some of her burden of responsibility, it is nothing new, so it is not a concern today. And in general, the famous dictum, “Power corrupts,” applies here. Thus, it could have been any of us had we been thrust into that position. And the actual physical harm resulting from her actions may not have been great . . . no one died in the salmonella episode for example, so I am prepared to cut her a little slack.
An important question here regards “surrender”: How much was Sheela doing what Osho indicated he wanted, and how much was she acting out of her own ego? Not that the Adolf Eichmann defense of “I was only following orders” will get her off all hooks, or indeed ANY personal hooks in terms of living with herself, but that’s really only her own business. I am considering the collective hook that WE have put her on by selecting her as a particularly blame-worthy person who did the well-known awful things that made everything harder for us, made the Ranch collapse and so on.
I was impressed by an interview she gave to Swiss media in 1994, in the aftermath of the Solar Temple flame-out, when she declared that such a thing could never happen in sannyas since Osho is basically life-affirmative. She HAS said some spiteful and likely untrue things about Osho, mostly I assume out of being hurt by and in reaction to the untrue things he was saying about her. But dwelling on them, making a life story out of them like eg Shiva/Hugh Milne? – I don’t think so.
We can never know anywhere near the whole story of her complex dance with Osho, but some hints can be found in his words. There is a not often visited analysis of how she became disaffected. There is evidence from Osho’s words that he knew about a proposed AIDS home in Antelope, hinting slyly in Aug 85 about a wonderfully dangerous project to be unveiled in Sept. The Press Conference that was to be the big unveiling was scheduled for Sept 5 but got cancelled the day before. Then came this discussion about it at a Press Conference on Sept 16, 85:
> INTERVIEW WITH STEVE DAVIS, KGO-TV, SAN FRANCISCO (CHANNEL 7)
> Q: ON THE MATTER OF THE AIDS CLINIC OR AIDS HOME IN THE ANTELOPE
> HOUSING PROJECT, YOU MENTIONED HERE THIS EVENING THAT YOU LEARNED THE
> DAY BEFORE THE NEWS CONFERENCE THAT THAT WAS WHAT WAS TO BE ANNOUNCED
> AT THE BIG NEWS CONFERENCE. YOU AND I SPOKE A WEEK OR TEN DAYS BEFORE
> THE NEWS CONFERENCE, AND YOU ALLUDED TO THAT PROJECT IN A TAPED
> INTERVIEW WITH ME, IN WHICH YOU CHARACTERIZED IT BY THE SAME PHRASE
> YOU USED TONIGHT, THAT BEING SOMETHING EXTREMELY DANGEROUS, AND SAID
> THAT YOU WOULDN’T HAVE THE STREET PEOPLE PROGRAM AGAIN BECAUSE YOU HAD
> DONE THAT, BUT THAT YOU WERE GOING TO DO SOMETHING THAT WOULD SHOCK
> AMERICA AND THAT WAS EVEN MORE DANGEROUS, AS YOU CHARACTERIZED IT.
>
> A: I am doing it. This is more dangerous.
>
> Q: AND YOU WEREN’T AT THAT TIME ALLUDING TO THE AIDS CLINIC IN ANY WAY
> ? THAT WAS NOT ON YOUR MIND ?
>
> A: No. I was not alluding. I was alluding to this press conference.
So here he is denying that the AIDS Home was the reason for cancelling the Sept 5 Press Conference, and supplying a different reason. Four days later (cognitively dissonant quote below), he says, yes, that WAS why it was cancelled, but he was out of the loop.
Just for fun, and leaving aside his famous inconsistency, let’s consider Osho’s words above from the point of view that there might be at least some truth in them. What could that be? What could possibly be “more dangerous” about THIS press conference, about THIS, than the whole street people program?
Well, it could be that he is risking looking like a liar, with this Steve Davis exposing his false statements.
Meanwhile, Sheela: The Press conference above was shortly after Sheela and “her gang” left. Why did they leave? Many suggestions have been made. One big reason according to Osho was that Sheela couldn’t handle being a second-in-command, when he resumed speaking after 3 1/2 years of silence. Whatever the truth of that, I venture here that there was another good reason, which has not been much discussed, and that is that she (and Puja and possibly others, eg Krishnadeva) became aware that Osho was going to shift his story a bit, as it suited him, and they might be left in an untenable position, eg to take legal and moral responsibility — let’s not quibble too much about that loaded phrase for the moment — for what they knew had been some shady deals.
The aforementioned four days later, Osho referred to a conversation he had had with Sheela and possibly Puja about cancelling the Sept 5 AIDS home Press Conference:
“They created a home, a complex of homes, in Antelope and they wanted to make it an AIDS home just to create nuisance for Oregonians, because it will become a danger to everybody around. Hospitals are refusing, families are refusing, people are committing suicide. So from all over America AIDS people will start moving to Antelope. And to me they said they are making a beautiful housing colony for sannyasins, particularly for Festival purposes.
“I said, ‘That’s okay.’
“Only the last day when they were going to inaugurate it, they wanted me to be present. I inquired what exactly it is. Then they told me that, ‘We are going to make a AIDS home.’
“I refused and I said, ‘This cannot be done. You are not only risking Oregonians, you are risking your own commune too. Your doctors will have to go there, your nurses will have to go there. And those people, if they want to come to listen to me, you cannot prevent. You are risking your own people. This I will not allow. So cancel the press conference.’
“That day it became clear to me, looking at Sheela’s eyes, that the bridge between us is broken.”
Well, I guess so. Whatever actually happened in that conversation with Sheela, we might well understand that she felt undermined. In various respects, she was way out on a (legal and moral) limb for lots of actions she had taken. Some, such as the AIDS home, Osho was demonstrably in on, and some maybe/likely not (your guess is as good as mine). Very likely she sensed with some queasiness that Osho would not be with her out on that limb, never mind that he had likely asked her to engage in at least some of the shenanigans. She likely in her own mind thought, or at least rationalized, that what she was doing was what he wanted. Whether he actually requested something or she intuited/imagined it may have been a distinction not worth making for her. Seen from this angle, it is no wonder she and her cohort left ten days later.
And their leaving led to a tremendous can of worms being exposed, including the salmonella fiasco and ultimately Osho’s arrest and poisoning in jail and the collapse of the ranch. So yes, you bet this denial business (re the AIDS home) is dangerous! It may also be worth mentioning here that the official investigation of the salmonella episode had long been finished and had more or less settled it as an accidental contamination, so Osho was kicking a soundly sleeping dog by ever mentioning it again. He did not have to do that if he wanted that to stay hidden.
Osho told yet another AIDS home story back in Pune after the World Tour. From The Messiah, Vol 1, Chapter 16, 16 January 1987:
“And we had made a big campus where three thousand people could have been accommodated. We wanted to open the first nursing home for people who are suffering from AIDS, but we were prevented. The commune was destroyed.”
Oh well. And now it’s 3000 people, not just 500.
These words of Osho show clearly that, at least regarding the AIDS home, he is prepared to shuffle facts and responsibility around to suit his purpose. What one does with seeing this is another matter. Satya Bharti and those she influenced used it as a reason to jump ship. I am proposing to use it as a way to re-examine the scapegoating of Sheela. Not to make Osho look bad, since I accept that the Master has to act sometimes in a way that might be thought of as harshly in order to shock the disciple into some wakefulness. Ma Tzu famously threw his disciple out of a window. Osho does it more subtly, but it is the same.
Love, Sarlo
(This email letter has been sub- edited and shortened – Ed. )
yet again another rehashing of history from almost 30 years ago – more opinions and surmises about an episode long gone – why bother with all this endless rewriting of history – what is the point of it all ?
i remember the story osho once told of the man he knew who was writing a history of the world – he devoted many years to his project – a huge volume of history –
one day there was an incident on the street outside his home – some crime had been committed and the police were called –
he saw that out of ten people who had been present at the incident ten different witness reports were taken – ten different stories of what had happened contradicting each other
he realised that if this is so about something that happened that he knew himself today, what was the value of his history – all made up stories of the past with no way of knowing what is true and what is not – he threw his volume of history and abandoned his project
there are events and people acting in the sannyas world today – i dont understand this obsession with sheela – are old sannyasins stuck in the past ? – the damage being done to the sannyas movement today by the resort managers who have sucked the life out of it for their own benefit is of no concern here – only sheela sheela sheela sheela sheela ad infinitum
Well, DR, let’s say you, like, I imagine, most devotee types (and certainly all of a, shall we say, ‘fundamentalist’ persuasion), have a pretty strong vested interest in not wanting to to be reminded of Osho’s possible errors and/or possibly devious ways.
It would be fair to say that such qualms would tend to fuel your particular emotional bias regarding this period of sannyas history, would it not?
An honest, self-aware answer, free from personal bias, would be refreshing (and certainly unexpected).
satyadeva – as i understand it sheela was mostly following oshos directions as to how to act and behave – and was the fall girl who took some of the heat off osho when he was under attack – out of love for bhagwan –
i dont know this for sure as i was not personally involved in oshos household or the power group in rajneeshpuram
im sure osho made many mistakes – its easy to know what is a mistake after the event isnt it ? –
but he was someone who acted in the world in an attempt to transform peoples consciousness and expose the lies of the vested interests who have been enslaving humanity since so long – lies that prevent people from rising in consciousness
yes osho may have been devious at times and made errors – see the world he was dealing with – the politicians and ignorant fools who wanted to kill him were against him – he had to be clever and devious at times to protect the commune inspired by him – to fight for the truth in this world is not an easy job and usually leads to the crucifixion
for those who do nothing to help the world and take no risks to sit in judgement and criticism of osho – who stood up and acted totally for the highest good even knowing what the result was likely to be for himself – well – as far as i am concerned i would rather support the buddhas than add my voice in negative judgement – judgement of one who was of the highest consciousness that humanity is capable of just now – by those who have not risen yet to those heights and seek to pull down those who have and seek to help them
osho died young from his mistakes – perhaps some would say his biggest mistake was in leaving his room and speaking out – he could have remained a proffessor his whole life and become well off writing a few books commenting on hindu mystics, living long
instead he embarked on a journey which touched the lives of millions – and made an experiment of creating a commune and buddhafield in oregon for the transformation and growth of his people and an example to the world of a different way of organising life – which in this world was not tolerated
and today the history books are being written to paint it in a wholly negative light ignoring the positive that was happening – and nobody died from these “errors” – unlike the errors of the politicians that kill millions and ruin the lives of millions more
its a crying shame as far as i am concerned that sannyasins put their energies to do down osho and his people – only those who never acted are the ones who never made errors –
and what communes have you created satyadeva ? eh ?
As I said, I wonder at your apparently rock-solid conviction that people who write at SN are somehow committed to opposing Osho and his efforts to create a more conscious humanity.
This is certainly not true of myself, nor of anyone else here, as far as I can judge. So enough of that, thanks, DR; there’s no need to imagine ‘enemies of Osho’ where none exist. That’s where your perhaps admirable committment to your cause (although I’m still very sceptical re Swami R) becomes a brand of flawed fanaticism, and therefore deeply suspect.
Apart from that, it’s refreshing to hear that you accept Osho was far from ‘infallible’, and I wouldn’t argue with much of what else you say about him in your above post.
Oh SD, they are not especially Osho’ enemies, those are the enemies of Humanity at whole. Since they have started interfering into humanities psychology according their interests. That structure will always destroy what is good and create separations, psychological or walls. When ever somebody rises above, they will destroy or making it useable for the common. To bring light in that plot is the credit of many brave people, not compromising that structure, since they destroyed the Vedic Society.
I don’t like if S.R. tries to put himself into a position where he is not belonging to. What he is doing at the moment is nothing than instigate against other Sannyasins and not creating harmony, such he is doing the job of the liars. Giving people the impression being the only person who discovered truth after Osho, not sharing and making people fight instead celebrating, is the wrong way, its my impression.
Behind are no politicians, it’s a structure controlled by people you don’t normally know, all is kept secretly. The problem is not a hijacked Ashram. Our real problem is that because of false ideologies and religions people will again and again rushed at each other like dogs.
Possible that Sheela had to defend Osho and the Commune; just perhaps it went out of control, because of a to little background knowledge.
mm – yes satyadeva – im glad to hear you dont oppose oshos efforts create a conscious humanity
swami rajneesh has made a promise to osho to continue those efforts –
its not a job he asked for or he needs – he was very happy for those years he spent in manali alone sleeping and meditating –
he had made enough money from the watch design and sales business in hong kong to support himself for the rest of his life
people ridicule him and say he is an idiot – he is not – he was a top designer and made a fortune out of one of his designs alone – the once famous guitar shaped watch sold a million to all the rock stars and rock fans
one year he won the design award in hongkong for his watch designs in competition with top design companies
the chinese judges loved him especially as he was also a master of tai chi
there is an entity called the jewellery council of china – if i remember correctly there are four members – a position on it only becomes available when one member dies – one member had died – and the chinese authorities offered the position to rajneesh
the post is for life and brings with it great wealth and power – the power to approve or disapprove contracts for trade with china – big money in bribes are paid by large companies
those people who think rajneesh is doing what he is doing out of self interest are completely wrong – if he was self interested he would have accepted the post – and all the most beautiful chinese women you can handle also come with the job as is the chinese way
he already had enough money to support his simple life of meditation in manali – and turned the once in a lifetime opportunity to become very wealthy down to return there, leaving hong kong –
i know he would be very happy to return to his simple life and not bother with rejuvenating the sannyas movement and making it in a better form for the present and future sannyasins – he certainly doesnt need the headache and stress that has come with it
but the truth is he is the only one amongst oshos sannyasins who is capable of doing the job –
if he doesnt help osho turn it around then oshos sannyas movement basically is fucked as it is and will go on being so – and likely soon will disappear altogether with the deaths of all those who were with osho in the body
for me seeing this, attacks on rajneesh are attacks on osho and the sannyas movement
rajneesh absolutely does not deserve attack – or the regular ugly pisstakes from some of the sannyas news regulars – he deserves our support – a support that is a support for osho and the coming buddhas of the future
well there you are satyadeva – make of that what you will – i have told you the truth
“Swami Rajneesh has made a promise to Osho to continue those efforts –
its not a job he asked for or he needs”
Please clarify, DR:
When was the “promise” made?
Are you saying Osho told him to do it?
Dhyanraj, reading your above comment strikes me as something written by someone who might view themself as an underachiever. The way you are going on about SR you’d think you wished him nominated for sainthood. Sounds like you love the guy. Bully for you. Love can make one blind, as we all know, and therefore just because you don’t see eye to eye with someone and how they view SR does not mean they are wrong.
As for Osho’s efforts to create a conscious humanity….I find that questionable. You claim to be with and I quote, ‘ the only one amongst oshos sannyasins who is capable of doing the job.’ The mind bogles. But apart from that, do you really see yourself as being in the vanguard of creating a conscious humanity? I daresay you do and are completely identified with your illusions of grandeur. But most of us regulars here on SN know you are probably one of the least conscious people writing on here and very uptight and nasty to boot. Before you attempt getting humanity on the right foot I reckon you siting down and doing a wee bit of homewrk might be in order.
The truth is he is the only one amongst oshos sannyasins who is capable of doing the job….unbelievable!
swami satyam dhyanraj says:
“he was a top designer and made a fortune out of one of his designs alone –
the once famous guitar shaped watch sold a million to all the rock stars and rock fans”
you mean like these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/guitar-watch
And next on SR’s ‘To Do’ list is to carry Osho’s burden and save humanity???
(My ‘promise’ to you DR is that i will not make any silly “he’s just a wind up” joke’s)
Hey, man, I want one of those.
Again, the evil ex-sannyasins and perverted therapriests who are exploiting and raping all the innocent genuine sannyasins,and whose only joy is to drag our beloved leader and the greatest christmas cracker content maker in the history of Hong Kong …
Brian (and Osho who are the same thing) down to the same retarded level as themselves and their egoic egotistical negative,ugly minds.
hahahahaha
Be careful Anubodh,you are not doing the work that the master told you to.
Remember there is no Brian but Brian and Brian is his only representative who can do the job.
And having been a very important person in Hong Kong,Brian knows everything there is to know about making cheap imitations.
hahahahahaha
The Chinese even offered him lots of girls but he turned it down.
See what a great saint he is?
hahahahahaha.
Soon the gloves will come off and we are working very hard to create a new humanity that looks ,sounds and acts just like us.
When the time is right we will send some very capable people who we will train in several communes around the world who love Osho l round to your place with his chuddies crammed full of full of fertilizer and press the button…
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
the filthy,drunken,perverted rapist kaffars and red-bottomed baboons will see the error of their ways….
Nobody can resist the enlightenment of Oshama Brian Laden who has suffered all manner of torture and beatings from the destroyers of Osho`s vision,such as being pushed into the Blue Diamond swimming pool and being laughed at……
As His right hand man.I, Mullahahahahaha Omar cannot tolerate this level of abuse against the imitation master of masters and must speak out and tell the world the truth:
That truth is truth and lies is lies.
And I am the truth and you are the lies.
Nobody can stop the coming lineage of cloned Buddhas…
In my heightened state of consciousness resulting from living with a real Buddha who once had a real job , I see myself as the parrot sitting on Captain Brians` shoulder as the heroic internet pirates of the carribean burn and pillage the sinking ships of the evil empire…
and announcing the coming of a better humanity..
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
make of it what you will.
I have told you the truth.
Well impressed. He’s not just a Punatic, but a Punatic tock!
Not a timewaster either, but a “coming buddha”, with dr in the missionary position trying to give him a good time.
Have to say dr, it takes balls to say what you do….as in “load of…”
The new messiah?…Wishfool thinking. He’s one hand short of a clock. (Should have taken the money and chinky chicks…)
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha – well that set you guys off didnt it ?
light the blue touch paper and stand back – ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
For someone on a self-proclaimed profoundly devotional path, this guy DR has a hide often resembling that of a rhino.
Can’t help smelling something psychically ‘fishy’ there….
The smell of politics and a subtle – or not-so-subtle – ambition….
Poor old roadrage. Ego mi amigo….trying to look smarter than you is, by pretending it’s a wind up with imitation watchfulness and the trademark “ha ha ha” line polly(parrot)filla.
Grazi-ass for being such an over-ripe cheesy target and source of fun. (A not so guilty pleasure.)
You appear to have negative attention syndrome I fear, and might need a therapriest to sort it out.
@SD….. ” I wonder at your apparently rock-solid conviction that people who write at SN are somehow committed to opposing Osho and his efforts to create a more conscious humanity….This is certainly not true of myself, nor of anyone else here, as far as I can judge.”
I dunno, SD. There is so much anti-Osho bias on this site, that sometimes I wonder if some contributors are working for MI5 or the CIA, with an agenda to damage Osho’s work.
Perhaps in the past one or two might have fitted such a description, although how can anyone be certain? But, AJ, to say that of current contributors is bordering on paranoia, as far as I can see anyway.
Oh Sheela
Do a favour, keep at least two three beds in your old people´s home for the sannyasins of Rajneeshpuram time.
They can gossip about the past, you can wash some guilt in this way; if there is some.
Galen’s hugely mistaken ideas about anatomy lasted for a thousand years or more. Leonardo corrected many of them, but no one published his revisions. Thousands continued to die on the operating tables. History buried those mistakes and only a few insightful and brave souls took on the anatomical “wisdoms” of the time. Even when finally shown as mistaken a hundred years after Leonardo, it still took many Doctors many years to accept them and introduce them into surgery. So this history is bunk idea is simply rubbish.
Whilst I do not agree with Sarlo’s particular analysis, he is raising by way of extension a very valuable point. In fact, this is not about Sheela, but about us all, including our Master. In particular those 1500 or so “full commune members” such as myself at that time, Osho’s household, Sheela’s coterie, and Osho himself. Mistakes were made, and even now pasted over. There can be no real moving on in sannyas until they are fully acknowledged.
We were all responsible, and those who were not directly involved then, but ignore it now, are also being equally irresponsible.
Thoee like DR and Shantem who abhore the Resort Managers might consider that these same people were part of the Ranch experience, and part of Osho’s household, which could prove illuminating if they think hard enough about it, and the presently closeted lessons of that time.
the facts of anatomy and science are one thing – history of human relations is another – his story is only that – someones story – there can be as many stories as there are people
focusing on the mistakes of osho made in another century – when he faced his challenges moment to moment – who can say now what was wrong and what was right for him and us in those moments ?
we are the alive consciousness of humanity today – and we have our own challenges to face and our own mistakes to make – its impossible to do anything without making mistakes – and what may look like a mistake today may prove the blessing of tomorrow and vice versa
swami rajneesh today is making an attempt to correct the mistakes osho made in the past through positive action now – mistakes such as the emphasis on therapy and money and riches which prove to have degraded his movement and are not right for sannyasins now
and let me tell you creating a commune and buddhafield for the growth and nourishment of the future buddhas is no easy job and necessarily involves many what look like mistakes – you find out what is a mistake only after you have made it – and sometimes what seems like a mistake today turns out to be a blessing tomorrow, and vice versa –
it would be a lot easier and more comfortable life not to bother – but if no one bothers to act for the good of the sannyas movement then what will be the result ?
the perversion of oshos words to suit the vested interests, the loss of the buddhafield garden and the loss of some of the future buddhas who are in need of the nourishment of the garden
From my reading I have discovered that historically ppl NEVER* change their minds. Basically you have to wait until they die and then new ppl with fresh minds will step in. Fighting the old minds is a waste of energy which can be saved for the new coming era.
*Some pretend to, for political reasons
Agree with Parmartha.
The fruit does not fall far from the tree.
There is a difference in accountability between a ‘mistake’ and malicious, unethical, selfserving or criminal behaviour, depending on the intention behind it.
Stepping on someone’s foot by accident and deliberately doing so are two different things.
The average commune member was there in good faith and were not privy to the nefarious goings on at management level. They are more innocent victims with lessons to be learned about blind devotion and ‘surrender’.
In some sense Sheela is also a victim as well as a perpetrator. She was put into a position by osho above her intellectual and psychosocial abilities, already for some time. I only met her once at a public meeting and was utterly put off by her.
Osho was negligent for sure and then covering up. But anyone lavishly spending money on himself as he did, when the commune needed funds, sends up a red flag about his ethical radar and integrity.
I’m not really surprised about the goings on at resort hq. There have always been funny goings on around osho. He cultivated an authoritarian style of leadership that was role modelled to his inner circle and trickled down to lower tiers in the organisation.
People seemed to be used, tossed, demoted and banned as needed, easily masked behind the general sophistry of words like device, surrender and the mythos of the perfect, selfless master.
I could see few signs of vehicles for providing ‘safe’ feedback and for dealing with conflict in the organisations. Things were just the way they were. Like it or lump it.
It is good to think of this history so as to avoid repeating it, and let the younger generation know.
It is not just osho’s corner that needs a good shake up.
The rest of the spiritual world is also so rife with abuse, that profound cynicism with the whole enterprise would seem a legitimate response.
Fortunately today, the internet is a gamechanger, and makes it harder to hide and carry on with business as usual.
Best export quality post, Dom. Well put, by jingo.
None of us will ever have to deal with that scale of interpretation of events ever again, in the presence of someone who charmed the pants off us, Osho.
I’m only talking to those who were aligned with the whole sannyas story here, not mere onlookers or dilettantes. And that is not for me to measure either in its quantity or quality.
What I took from the external shenanigans of sannyas was the ability to meet things head on and to do it with intensity. The polarity of everyone’s various experiencing and reflections was unrepeatable en masse, without committing to that experiment. It still remains a choice of how to live. The fuel that was added was intensity and direct consequences. You will never get that kind of living unless you yourself like to take risks. That percolates all the way up and down to eventually even telling The Master et al to go fuck himself in the nicest possible way. And that does not necessarily take anything away from the process.Even in it. In fact were it to be done more conspicuously even now in the hallowed halls of searchingdom, then the cakes available at most seekers gatherings would be used as missiles for a decent bun fight, instead of for scoffing with an ‘I told you so’ hindsight.
Personally I lived it out as much as I could, managing to learn how giving two fingers is a form of Namaste. That’s my learning curve and I can tell you it doesn’t affect my abilities to live love or laugh and be utterly in thrall to the energy, in my still whirring body/ mind memory banks, by the name of Osho. Anything less or piss weak in the mortal moral self wrestling match of life just palls by comparison.
And I’m no trapeze artist, I just know that you pays your money and you takes your choice, and you can change tunes anytime you want. The main thing is in making friends along the way who understand that, without explanation but with a lot of hell for leather fun about them.
If anyone wants to extrapolate that to defining a sannyas mania, just exclude me from that bias or reduced lowest common denominator equation here, ta.
I’m grateful that for some years now something quite different from that possibility has been my modus operandi, complete though with utter cock ups too. I know that, because of that , any idea of being in thrall to anything less than divine catalepsy even as a road sign ahead, as a pointer, just isn’t worth one’s or loved one’s precious time. And if one hasn’t known just exactly what is one’s own internal inner religious gob smacked cosmic playful nutter, then mucking about trying to tie up the loose ends in a court of juridical judgement is never gonna help anyway.
It’s always the deep end . And the lovely thing is you can do it all arse upwards, and it makes no difference to the particular conundrum of self wrestling anyway. Whatever is in the wash , has to come out. Now where else would you have got that level of intersocial troublemaking amongst ourselves , let alone any other poor souls who got railroaded, if it wasn’t for wanting more, not less from each and everyone of us …..in this thing which fails to live up to our most profound longing suspicions otherwise, called life ….with a small (he)ll.
Good honest writing.
Sheela had been planning to leave the Ranch at least at the beginning of the preparations for that 1985 summer festival. I know this as she discussed this with me in Koln when she dropped me off supposedly to allow a member of the Koln crew to attend the festival. Vetraugh was sent to Munich. That was our reward for our refusal to help carry out her illegal actions. Both of us refused to murder any of Osho’s disciples and additionally for Vetraugh not wanting to bombing the Dallas, so I am told.
The commune was desperate for funds and one of the bright sic ideas that was evolved at that time was to utilize the housing created for homeless folks in Antelope into a AIDS clinic and charge for it. You may recall that no sannyasin wanted to live in “Antelope” and the housing complex created for the homeless, which had cost multiple millions of dollars to purchase and transport and set up was not being used.
Sheela was very stressed out from the pressures of running the ranch, keeping all of her stories straight and running, maintaining control of all aspects of the sannyasin world to fit her goals. She was not sleeping very well, a understatement.
Osho seemingly got wind of it and prevented it as he clear states this in the interview.
hey John , i mean Jay- whatever, weren’t you partly responsible for getting that $6 million loan secured to buy the ranch? You had connections with various banking officials.. just wondering what “story” your then “wife” laid on you, for you to naively go out and wrestle up the money…. just wondering…. btw, at least some of the time at the ranch you put in some hard work- saw you many a time on a front end loader or backhoe
I have read most the documents here …
Rajneesh Documents
http://www.oregonlive.com/rajneesh/index.ssf/documents.html
… and to me once ‘a group’ agreed to start hiding important information from Osho the rot had began.
* * *
On the other hand … there is a whole group of new sannyasins that do not know or care about the old stories. They just meditate and listen to the discourses. In a way, they have already began to separate the teaching from the personality (which incidentally was the subject matter of another recent thread). The old stories and the ppl in them are becoming just as incidental as the nitrous to the creation of the final construct.
Patton’s (and probably Osho’s) old favourite “Tell ppl what to do but not how to do it and they will surprise you” is happening by itself. Proof that “freedom from the known”, actually works. Try it.
One demon kills the city of angles.
Hero of world war Z came a bit late.
He could save only the Massiah.
Peace and harmony was restored again,
not in the city of angles
but in a refugee camp somewhere in India.
To celebrate this great struggle
Hero of world war Z
has started Mansoon Festival.
The subject matter of this thread is far from my heart, in truth I find it tedious to the point of speed reading and skipping the dross which to my mind is most of it. Nonetheless, there is much worth commenting on and I can get my fangs into some of my fellow contributor’s comments.
First the main topic. If any sannyasin believes that Osho wasn’t behind a lot of the madness that went down on the ranch they are living in denile. Osho was far too savvy to not see what was going on and said as much in the past. In Poona One he claimed to be completely aware of everything that was going on in the commune. Years pass and suddenly he don’t know nothing, Officer. Sarlo declares that the famous dictum ‘Power corrupts’ applies to the situation, which it probably does, more so if it is delivered in its full form. Lord Acton’s famous quotation runs: “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.” I believe the historian and moralist’s comment was directed at the politicians and emperors of the time and that it still holds true today. As far as the commune goes, Sheela held power but it was Osho who wielded absolute power. Was he corrupted by it? I think there is a strong possibility that he was, or else just became bored with his creation, like a jaded emperor.
I recall Osho saying that when an Indian guru goes to the United States it signals his downfall. I don’t see that as true in general, but it could certainly apply to Osho himself. Paramahansa Yogananda did not have a downfall due to his setting up an ashram in the hills of Los Angeles, in fact he went from strength to strength and was, in my opinion, uncorruptable. Whether or not Osho was ‘bad’ is another question, ‘bad’ belonging in this case to a dualistic mindset that is not worth exploring for my purposes today.
Sarlo declares, ‘That no one died during the salmonella episode, so he’s prepared to cut Sheela a little slack.’ That’s very magnimonious of him and it certainly succeeds in making him sound like a conceited fool. I wonder if his attitude might be different had it been his mother, father, brother, sister or children who had been victims of such an insane prank. Let’s call a spade a spade. It was an outrageous and callous thing to do. Full stop. I’ll leave it there in regards the topic in fear of becoming how I view this subject matter…tedious.
God forbid, I actually found myself agreeing with much of what Dhyanraj said, but not all. Take for instance the following: ‘to fight for the truth in this world is not an easy job and usually leads to the crucifixion.’ This is parrot-like rhetoric and it is not entirely true by a long shot. I suspect this ties in with the Swami Rajneesh mindset currently on offer and that of certain groups within the sannyas global community. Why fight for the truth in the first place, why not simply live it like countless saints and sages down through the ages? The idea that there is something to be fought for lies at the heart of the problem and it is significant that Dhyanraj has repeated this kind of rhetoric previously, because he is someone who believes he has to fight to the point of creating imaginary enemies if there aren’t any real ones around, which is generally the case. As a man believes so the world appears. Guru Nanak, Lao tzu, Ramana Maharshi were not crucified, along with many other enlightened people. I don’t think Osho was crucified either. Osho loved to over-dramatize and exagerrated his importance in terms of being a big time figure on the global stage, even taking into account that he was judged by The Times to be in the top 100 influential people in the Twentieth Century. It gives certain sannyasins a buzz believing their master was a martyr to the cause of truth, a very Christian/Islamic way of viewing things and in my mind completely untrue. It is a much more bitter pill to swallow that Osho seriously damaged his health all by hmself, getting high on nitrous oxide and tranqs, coupled with lack of exercise and sedantory lifestyle. He always said that he would blow people’s preconceptions about how an enlightened man should behave clean out of maya’s swirling waters and he must certainly succeeded in that.
Parmartha says, ‘We were all responsible, and those who were not directly involved then, but ignore it now, are also being equally irresponsible.’ I don’t see myself in either of those camps. At the end of Poona One I began a rapid decent into seventh hell in the form of a horrible disease that almost succeeded in ending my life at the tender age of 31. By the time I learned to walk again the ranch was beginning to grow and mutate into something I did not feel attracted to. When photos of lilac- clad guards in fascistic-looking peaked caps, carrying semi-automatic weapons, began to surface I suspected something unsavoury was brewing. When I heard what Sheela was saying in Osho’s name I knew I wanted no part of it. Towards the end of the ranch days I watched vids and could not help but notice that less and less of my soul brothers and sisters were showing up and more and more dumbed-down types were laughing nervously at Osho’s bizaare comments. It wasn’t so much over for me, but rather due to my intense struggle to hold on to life and where I found myself when I succeeded I realised I’d moved on and had learned to walk again on my own in more ways than one. Therefore, Parmartha, I don’t feel responsible for any of that nonsense that went on, from 1981 on. In retrospect, I do feel responsible for not taking a stronger stance against certain issues that took place in Poona One. I was young and inexperienced and like everyone else too afraid of being tossed out on my ear for standing up and proclaiming that some things just were not right by any standard. As the song runs, I won’t be fooled again.
Best export quality post, Baba.
BS detector deemed in good working order.
As in life, the buck stops with the Big Paneer.
Most everyone else just working on the jain gang.
At times I feel so ignorant and apathetic about it all.
What’s the difference?
I don’t know and I don’t care.
Thanks Lokesh for taking the trouble to write all that. Unfortunately by the time I arrived, all the games of getting close to HIM have all been played, so out here in the perimeter we remained stoned immaculate.
My father was very powerful … and I have also been in positions where I can control the information “going upwards” … so I know that the one/ones at the top ALWAYS KNOW THE LEAST. For that very reason I have always resisted positions of power, because I would rather ‘know’ than ego-play. Whenever given the option, I would rather be the power behind the throne, than have the throne itself.
For me the poisonings and the share-a-home were, insane acts and totally unforgivable at all levels. I feel that we will never know what had Osho in mind because we did not give him the right facilities and people. We know he did not particularly like the Ranch location … perhaps he should have stuck to his guns and given them a bit more time to find a better place.
None of this makes any difference but it is good to ponder. Pondering is as divine as everything else.
As PM said above, “None of us will ever have to deal with that scale of interpretation of events ever again, in the presence of someone who charmed the pants off us, Osho.” To which I would say, thank god.
Just to be clear Lokesh, I dont consider someone such as yourself “responsible”, you never were on the Ranch or involved in the European communes, 1981 to 1985. My point was one of self criticism.
“Full commune members” as we were called at the time, such as myself did guess a little of what was going on, and also even more were mystified. According to some statistics there were many tens of thousands of sannyasins who lived out the 1981 to 1985 period, and avoided the Ranch and any commune involvement like the plague. Clearly they were not responsible.
Right them PM, thanks for taking the time to clarify that wee point.
Time to stop beating yourself up about all that.
Time to forgive that man who was thirty years younger, for not living up to your now ideas of perfect.
You, of all people, seem to have learned something from those times, are still willing to look and learn some more.
You seem to me one of the good guys.
Give yourself a break.
osho stood up and fought the vested interests of the priests and politicians of the world who have enslaved humanity – the enemies of consciousness and freedom – he exposed all the lies and worked to dehypnotise us –
the ideas and insights he shared are filtering through the common consciousness of humanity as people become more aware of how they have been fooled for so long
sometimes truth does have to be fought for – and to pretend there are no enemies of truth and freedom is only possible if one is sitting with closed eyes ignoring the reality of the world around us
ramana and paramahamsa didnt bother with any of that in their day and didnt make powerful enemies as a result since they never challenged anyone
neither is rajneesh bothering with it – its obviously a losing game – and osho organisations are proving to be not much better than the old establishment
the ones he challenges are oshos own people – there is no need to repeat the work osho courageously undertook last century
as far as salmonella goes – lokesh it seems views it as seriously as the american anti osho propaganda machine, who call it americas first bio terrorist attack – it was a bellyache for a day or two which killed no one nor did them any permanent harm –
the designation terror attack is pretty hypocritical from the power group running america who think nothing of invading countres and murdering millions – sending drones over pakistan and other places to bomb and murder innocent children and their parents
i saw a video a couple of months ago on yandex – osho was telling how he had instructed sheela to give a little taste of fascism to the commune in america – that we could all have the experience while he was around to put an end to it – which he did put an end to it – poona two was nothing like rajneeshpuram – so that we would not make the same mistakes again when he was no longer around
“i saw a video a couple of months ago on yandex – osho was telling how he had instructed sheela to give a little taste of fascism to the commune in america – that we could all have the experience while he was around to put an end to it – which he did put an end to it – poona two was nothing like rajneeshpuram – so that we would not make the same mistakes again when he was no longer around”
So Osho deliberately created a commune almost guaranteed to self-destruct? Rather than wanting a revolutionary experiment – on both outer and inner levels – that could be a shining example to the world as well as hugely promoting the growth in consciousness of sannyasins?
That takes one hell of a lot of swallowing, DR.
If Sheela was following his orders in this respect, isn’t it more likely that it all went much further than he envisaged, that the “little taste” became a whacking great overdose?
My feeling is he simply took on more than he could handle, he was like a fish out of water in the west, but perfectly at home back home in India.
And of course Poona 2 was nothing like Rajneeshpuram, they were two entirely different situations, different environments, therefore structured very differently.
i dont know satyadeva – i remember osho telling us while he was on the ranch that those who thought he was infallible were obviously wrong as he had made a big mistake coming there
rajneesh once brought up the point to me that it was a big mistake for osho to go west in the first place and build his sannyas movement around westerners – the western mind isnt capable of understanding –
that if he had gone east instead he would have have been much more successful and perhaps many more people would have been benefited – he would have been loved – seeing those sannyasins in vietnam today i can see his point – they are people of the heart – and you see the way western sannyasins here often talk of osho – no hearts
when osho was driving at the back of buddha hall one night after white robe not long before leaving the body the sannyasins were singing a devotional song – we love you, yes we do -o – something like that – osho remarked to the woman in the car with him – ” if only it were true”
On the other hand though, DR, the west was arguably where a man like Osho was most needed – and still is.
Swami R says the western mind can’t understand adequately, yet he’s the one that denigrates the therapies and groups that are meant to help to break through significant resistance, the product of past social and familial forces, to help make it easier to open the mind and heart.
Is he up to the job? One has to wonder…
From what I’ve seen and heard up to now, I’d say that his ‘pure devotee’ teaching is still simply unsuited to the vast majority of westerners. Not that no good can come out of his efforts, especially for beginners, but that after a certain point, he just won’t be able to get through to us lot.
what pure devotee teaching ? – you have some distorted ideas of rajneesh teachings satyadeva – there is no teaching really -
ive been with rajneesh in some of his meditation camps
the main method he uses is simply this – talk a while to relax the atmosphere –
those talks which he thought were just rubbish blah blah blah turned out to be quite interesting when i transcribed them and we made them into six or seven books that are well worth reading
anyway everyone sitting and relaxing
then put the music on – everybody dancing – rajneesh moving totally – energy levels rise – music stronger and stronger – we dissolve into the dance – rajneesh is of the highest energy and we are pulled up with him, mind is not used and we lose ourselves in the dance
fnally we stop and sit quietly – rajneesh talks a bit more – the end go to sleep
there is no teaching, rather a dissolving into energy – you must have experienced with bhagwan – the darshan, the white robe, the music group – its simple – and has nothing to do with teachings
“then put the music on – everybody dancing – rajneesh moving totally – energy levels rise – music stronger and stronger – we dissolve into the dance – rajneesh is of the highest energy and we are pulled up with him, mind is not used and we lose ourselves in the dance
fnally we stop and sit quietly – rajneesh talks a bit more – the end go to sleep
there is no teaching, rather a dissolving into energy – you must have experienced with bhagwan – the darshan, the white robe, the music group – its simple – and has nothing to do with teachings”
Sounds fine, I used to enjoy stuff like that and probably still would.
Yet the question arises (rather like after sex with a prospective partner), ‘Is that all you got?’ If so, what’s on offer is limited.
And as I said, all very well, esp for beginners, but only up to a point.
its fine for any sannyasin sataydeva – beginner or not – its very fine for me – and i have been oshos disciple since i connected with him in 1980
the whole journey is to raise the energy up to no mind, then allow it to settle, bringing it back into the body
- however it is done – it is enough and all that is needed
you ask “is that all youve got” and say what is on offer is limited – but what more do you want ? a simple process that anyone can do needs no more
in former times vipassana or just sitting was used by the schools of zen and buddhism -
simple stuff satyadeva – its the mind that looks for more than is needed for the result of an awake consciousness to arise
I have nothing against simple methods, having used many for decades, and I don’t disbelieve it might be most enjoyable, DR, but to say it’s all that’s required for everyone is too simplistic, naive beyond belief in fact. Are you seriously suggesting that people go on doing just that stuff for decades, or what?
Great therapy, sure, wonderful for body/mind well-being, glimpses of meditation too, no doubt…But a complete, ‘one-size-fits-all’ means for psycho-spiritual growth? Do me a favour!
That’s overwhelmingly for young people and for beginners, who make up, to my mind, Swami R’s actual ‘constituency’ (if indeed he has one at all).
swami satyam dhyanraj says:
>> rajneesh once brought up the point to me that it was a big mistake for osho to go west in the first place and build his sannyas movement around westerners – the western mind isnt capable of understanding –
Of course your Indian friend would say that. I take DR that you are a westerner… Do you understand?
Osho loved westerners. (I am a middle-easterner and I love westerners too) He spent his whole life amongst them, because they gave him a good argument and some pretty girls too. As time goes by I will be showing you more and more on how much he loved the westerners but I don’t want to jump the gun.
If there was mistake made on the Ranch was to have an Indian mystic represented by an Indian secretary. In the west he should have been represented solely by westerners … and dress us all as nuns and monks.
Dhanraj most of this sounds like doublethink.
Osho got seriously messed up on drugs during ranch time. Man, the poor guy was doing whole canisters of laughing gas. I doubt you’ve every tried the jumpin jack flash, Dhyanraj. You ain’t missing much. I took nitrous dozens of times way back in my Dead Head days. Anyone doing whole big cannisters of the stuff stands a good chance of blowing a hole in their neuro circuitry. Osho got into barbituates also. Somehing else I doubt you know much about. Again you are not missing anything. Never liked them myself. Good for people with nervous disorders, I suppose. Point is Dhyanraj, I suspect that you are pretty naive in regards these matters. Taking barbituates coupled with laughing gas is for people who enjoy to get out of it, not for people who claim to be living in superconsciousness. Now if Osho was simply a presence, tell me who was getting high.
someone who wasnt there is telling me all this about whole big canisters ?
i have experienced laughing gas once when i was young – at the dentists while he was fixing my teeth – yes i got stoned – enjoyable i thought at the time
i dont know why you keep on harping on about osho liking laughing gas – obviously he had a bodymind that could get stoned like the rest of us – ive read notes of a madman – dictated while in the dental chair under the influence – its one of oshos best books and certainly shows another side to the buddha from his discourses in buddha hall – he liked it – but why are you bothered about it ? has he harmed you in some way ? i dont think so –
the way you blather on lokesh judging someone you have no right to judge for doing as he pleased rather than conforming to your daddijis moral code – are you oshos mummy ?
“he liked it – but why are you bothered about it ? has he harmed you in some way ? i dont think so –
the way you blather on lokesh judging someone you have no right to judge for doing as he pleased rather than conforming to your daddijis moral code – are you Osho’s mummy?”
One of the main points about Osho’s use of laughing gas is the effect it’s likely to have had on his health. Some like to make out he died prematurely due to poisoning by the US government, but it’s possible (or even probable) he contributed to his passing by over-indulgence in this area. Like anyone who takes a lot of drugs, in fact.
I wonder how you’d feel if it were revealed that Buddha enjoyed regular drug sessions for a few years…
Or even if Swami R decided he could do with some similar stuff himself, to ease the stress of it all…
Would you perhaps be a tiny bit ‘disappointed’?
as im not “disappointed” with my master osho why would i be “disappointed” with gautam or rajneesh ?
repeating propaganda about someone doesnt make it true – it just makes it into the history books and everyone then believes it is true
im sure you have no idea as to oshos body or what effects this or that had on it – but if lokesh and american agents who want to paint him in a bad light keep on saying something then it must be true eh?
I think you overlook the weight of evidence regarding Osho’s consumption of nitrous oxide, DR.
You just can’t stomach the idea that Osho might well have been his own worst enemy (in a physical sense) rather than being purely a victim of the Big Bad Guys.
I don’t think Osho was ever mentally messed up. From my experience I can say that the brain has amazing powers of recovery. Even if there is a ‘fuck up’, it can be seen and worked through.
On the final rung, drugs are just pathology and of no actual value as the experience contains no information that can be exchanged. Osho was probably just plain bored.
Yes, my whole point is, if Osho was a presence, was never born and never died, who was getting high? The holy ghost?
Personally I don’t give a damn, even had Osho been doing speedballs. I do find it totally contradictory that Osho, who never advocated drug use, saying that it moves one away from meditation, ended up with a wee drug habit himself for some time. Then again, he was full of surprises, wasn’t he? Part of his legacy, one could say.
If other people, who are functionaries and have built their reputation around Osho remain in denial, I can under stand, But Parmartha; he does not seem to have some kind of vested interests, yet he is also not reconstructing the crime scene in a scientific and unbiased manner.
If putting all the burden of guilt on Sheela and her close aids was the right approach, he would have become free from the past ghosts, nobody talks about any more.
I think, he needs to watch some police reports Tv Serial or read some crime thrillers or talk with some criminal psychologist.
and may be his racial bias, makes him bend his convictions. There is one famous case, where one American cold angle, Amanda knox was accused for a sex related murder of a fellow British student in Italy.
It was impossible to convince US media and people that this foxy knoxy can knock down another girl, and this is one of the rare cases, where British press and people took the stand as more often big mouth Britain follows the US as blindly as possible.
Here too, it is almost impossible to convince the whiter than white disciples of Osho that their shadow sides don´t distinguish between the colours.
My observation says, ” Osho was kept in darkness by two main groups around Osho who were in competition like siblings to have complete access on Mama´s milk.
And it is very much possible, Osho´s doctor was playing the same role as MJ´s doctor to ease the pain through all kind of drug cocktails.
Fact is other than Osho nobody can invest all his energy into the success of his project. For lives and lives Osho was preparing himself for the right timings, old books say that he has spend 3 or 7 hundred years as bodiless soul for the right opportunity to come and change the business of religiosity.
Professor Shantam, our resident historial/ehm….archieologist declares,’Old books say that Osho spent 3 or 7 hundred years as bodiless soul for the right opportunity to come and change the business of religiosity.’ Fascinating research I’m sure you will agree. So Professor Shamytam, what are the titles of these books and where are they available?
By saying, and I quote; ‘He came to change the business of religiosity’, do you mean that Osho wanted to make it more profitable?
I think Shantam’s referring to ‘I Am the Gate’, which was one of his first books published in English. I came across it in ’73 and was highly impressed, to put it mildly.
Not at all sure now re claims of waiting 700 years for his ‘final birth’…But what do I know about such matters, especially where they relate to a man whose previous life ended at ‘around 90% enlightened’ (or similar)?
Yes, I Am the Gate was quite groundbreaking at the time, who’d have guessed where that gate would lead us? But come now, Shantam did not mean OLD Osho books surely. And if he did it simply could be some of Osho’s nonsense. He claimed to be an ordinary man. Tell me, what is ordinary about someone spending 3 or 7 hundred years as bodiless soul for the right opportunity to come and change the business of religiosity?
And Lokesh, the way he is using his amateur knowledge without any emotional connection with Osho and his work, I think many times, he was an opportunist to spend so many years around Bhagwan.
By nature he seems to be traditional Hindu gurus type; paramhansa Yogananda and punja ji type.
There are many people who don´t buy anything from Macdoland, it is too below their pride, but will not hesitate to use free toilet facilities.
Your emotional connection, Shantam, if that is what’s at play here, appears to making you incapable of making an objective comment. You never actually met Osho yet your statement more or less implies that you do have some kind of emotional connection with Osho, which I find highly suspect,,,,it could all be in your head, man. What emotional connection is required to make a comment on this thread? It is a very dry topic and dealing with facts. Go change your chuddies and don’t knock what you are not equiped to understand.
Sometime I wonder, there must be some past life relation between Rajneesh and Dhyanraj and their Rajneesh the senior.
It is impossible for me to read his posts. May be computer sticks was invented after observing such minds.
Any criminal lawyer will tell him, if you want to built any rapport with jury and judge, please shave your beard, have proper hair cut and before you say Hahaha haha, get certificate from clinical psychologist.
The moral of this post is 99.999% of sanyyasins were AOK people and basically the ones that needed Him the most were very close to him. It makes total sense. Some of them were (and still are) very dangerous people.
Almost ever spiritual scene has its borderliners. Sannyas always had a few nutters in the mix. Gurus attract all kinds of people, including lunatics. Yes, I’ve met a few who might be dangerous, not many.
I don’t mean nutters and lunatics. I mean real dangerous. As in top-level psychic vampires. You never know they are there until they have their fangs in you. If Osho was mishandled, he was mishandled in Pune2, probably by the same people who are mishandling his legacy and the ashram/resort money.
A while back I read somewhere that the way the movement was set up, he was bound to get killed, it was only a matter of where and by whom …
… even if the killing was being done by himself through bad living and drugs.
BV, top-level psychic vampires don’t pose a threat for me. I wear a garland of garlic 24/7 and say Hail Marys every night before I sleep.
The presentation of Rajneesh as someone representing for sannyaisns “the only path” seems to be most wayward. I never met the guy, and do not judge. But clearly a variety of paths is good that spans the whole range of the human condition. To me one of Jesus’ greatest mistakes was saying (if he did say) that “no-one comes to the father save through me”. It leads to fanaticism and reinforced dogmatism amongst followers, some of which seems to be a regular feature of this board!
Absolutely correct, Parmartha.
That sort of claim – “the only path” – is typical of the fundamentalist fanatic, who is unwilling or unable to perceive more than one side of an issue, who sees just one colour of a multi-coloured canvas and takes it for the whole spectrum.
(Re the Jesus quote, the best explanation I’ve heard is that the whole quote, starting with “I and the father are one”, is a simple model of our inner nature, symbolising the ‘inner path’: ‘I’ being the ever-living consciousness, ‘the father’ being God or Life, ‘me’ referring, in the first instance, to one’s immediate feeling of life within the body, reached by simple awareness, simple feeling, expanding as one consciously enters that space. Whether or not Jesus said all that and whether or not the explanation given is what he was actually getting at, it’s nevertheless a pretty good one).
Don’t you see Parmartha, that this whole non-judgemental thing is part and parcel of this whole warped story. Oh, Osho, was a drug addict who got a fixation about collecting Rolls Royces, put a neo fascist in charge of his commune and got upset when she would not allow him to buy a watch that cost over a million bucks. Golly look, some of my fellow communards poisoned some locals, including children, while dear Osho was in silence, busy watching telly and necking pills, and throwing shoes at his sexy girlfriend but hey what’s the problem I’ve been told to develop a non-judgementañ attitude. While we have on the other hand a major judgement about Jesus Christ of all people who, according to PM, ‘made one of his greatest mistakes saying, “no-one comes to the father save through me”. What other mistakes Christ made would be interesting to hear about seeing as how those mistakes only happened 2000 years ago. And what exactly did Christ mean by saying that really? The Bible is a massively escoteric book that is open to interpretation. What really leads to fanaticism and reinforced dogmatism amongst followers is basic stupidity and, as PM says, a regular feature of this board!
parmartha – “the only path” are your words not mine or rajneeshs – clearly there are as many paths as there are people to walk them
i was saying earlier that rajneesh is the only one amongst oshos sannyasins who is capable of doing the job of rejuvenating oshos sannyas movement – something very different –
but this is how misunderstanding arises – the mind filters what is said and arrives at its own conclusions which were never meant
Point taken re “only path”, DR. Although whether the Osho movement needs “rejuvenating” – especially by the likes of Swami R and yourself – is another matter entirely.
Indeed, I’d say that from current evidence the strong possibility would be that you two having any significant influence would be tantamount to transferring the whole of ‘sannyas’ from one frying pan into another, or even into the fire (and by “fire” I don’t mean what you’d like it to mean).
By the way, are you going to reply to my earlier question?
Here it is again:
“Swami Rajneesh has made a promise to Osho to continue those efforts –
its not a job he asked for or he needs”
Please clarify, DR:
When was the “promise” made?
Are you saying Osho told him to do it?
@ Anand Yogi
As always you said everything that has to be said with a wonderful joke and I am quite sure you are a real sannyasin. Cheers
satyadeva – i dont know the date and time – and rajneesh is elsewhere right now and working day and night on the latest phase of our project – i dont want to bother him by asking – do you really think when is important ?
as i understand it osho after a lot of resistance from rajneesh who wanted to continue blissfully sleeping finally got him out of bed
osho would not allow him to disappear totally – he pulled him back at the last moment
osho is connected with rajneesh and needs him to carry out his work – the work of a buddha –
i asked rajneesh once – why do you bother? they are all idiots, they dont understand and will only do you harm –
he told me – its like this dhyanraj – i am sitting at a banquet enjoying all the best food – but all around there are those who are starving even though they could also be enjoying – after a while i start feeling guilty if i dont try and help them enjoy what i am enjoying – like i am a criminal to ignore the starving while eating rich food
all i know satyadeva is rajneesh has told me he has made a promise to osho to try his best to renew the sannyas movement – i cant give you more details than that
“as i understand it Osho after a lot of resistance from Rajneesh who wanted to continue blissfully sleeping finally got him out of bed
Osho would not allow him to disappear totally – he pulled him back at the last moment
Osho is connected with Rajneesh and needs him to carry out his work – the work of a buddha”
So, as I suspected, this ‘request’ was a purely psychic transmission, not one made in ‘real time’, ie while Osho was alive.
Sorry, but as such I regard it with deep scepticism, especially given the impression I have of the Swami.
And by the way, what makes you think you are any less of an ‘idiot’ than all the others you happily label as such?
You know, I’d say you are the last person ‘qualified’ to pass judgment on and particularly to take any significant role in ‘overhauling’ the sannyas movement. Just as so often in politics, where the ones that desperately want to rise to the top are the very ones that ideally shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near it, so in our would-be rarified circles.
Not that I doubt your sincerity, nor that I disagree with you on everything you’ve ever said here, but you’re too much the righteous one, too cocksure, too ‘superior’, too ‘unbalanced’ somehow, too one-dimensional even, to be entrusted with such a mission. In short, you’re too much the missionary to be entrusted with the ‘missionary position’.
SD, Dhyanraj, declared himself to me mad the other day on SN.
MAD….Adjective
Mentally ill; insane:
For once I totally agree with him.
its not me whos “overhauling the sannyas movement” satyadeva or having a “mission” – im just an old fool who became a disciple of osho
the job of renewing the sannyas movement is oshos and rajneeshs and gautam buddhas – of course i love them and like to help them if i can
Osho’s and Buddha’s, eh?
As the bishop said to the actress, “Well, well, well….”
“of course i love them and like to help them if i can”
Er, yes – of course….
Oh, Gautam the Buddha is joining the ranks to renew the sannyas movement. That comes as a bit of a surprise, seeing as how much of the sannyasin creedo lies in direct contradiction to Buddha’s teaching, especially in regards to sex. Please keep us updated on this latest unexpected devolopment.
Shaman on you sd for doubting the transmission of knob-mind between dear leader and his Mass-tah.
What osho actually said was “Rajneesh bring me more watches” (not watchfulness).
Hey, swami satyam dhyanraj
Is this one of swami R’s designs as well?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=buddy+watch&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.Xbuddha+watch&_nkw=buddha+watch&_sacat=0
Too many cooks spoil the broth, too many mini gurus over shadow the original.
I have really not seen a single mini guru who has enhanced the brand value of Osho.
When so many reality singers sing the Titanic song in Voice of India, Voice of Germany, UK, USA it is normal but when they think they are helping the fading song to revive, then I doubt their mental capacity.
Shantam I asked you earlier about the name of the old books you referred to about Osho being in astro zone waiting for 700 years before the time was right to be a baby. You made it up, right?
The book was Dimensions Beyond the Known, ch 2, talk given on Mar 7, 1971
Thanks Sarlo, that explains everything. Could this be ketamine related?
I think there are many books printed during Poona one where Osho talks about his past life. What I have written is from the memory, as sound as elephant memory but many titles I cannot remember other than the classic Hindi Book, ” Main Kehta Ankhan Dekhi”.
Three to four discourses I try to listen every week, but books I have not read for many years. Therefore sorry.
Shantam has went from’old books say that he has spend 3 or 7 hundred years as bodiless soul for the right opportunity to come and change the business of religiosity.’ to ‘many books printed during Poona one where Osho talks about his past life’
My point is that Shantam was creating a bit of hype, because it wasn’t old books that said this but it was Osho, which is a big differance.
I can recall that Osho had a period where he talked about such things. I don’t believe he was too fond of talking about such things but realised a bit of sensationalism was good for drawing in a crowd. We only have his word for it afterall. And as time has shown the old boy was prone to telling a wee porkie pie to embellish his stor.ies, especially where the cops were concerned.
If people like Lokesh think, Osho was using such stories about his past life to create sensationalism, it is their right.
why i should confront.
In Buddissm, every body knows about Buddha´s last birth as an elephant who died while protecting a rabbit.
Surely, some Christian or others such people can say, ” Hot air. There is no past life.”
I have really no interest in projecting Osho as allmighty, all knowing god. Also i don´t believe, packing and rapping off of Rajneeshpuram was just a Leela, a play. It was as real as sinking of Titanic.
And here, i will modify the storyline too. Puram did not sink because of the iceberg but through bullet holes of friendly firing.
Shantam, I’d say you are prone to a wee bit of sensationalism yourself, talking about ‘old’ books when in fact it was Osho books. Old books sounds like some old Tibetan manuscripts secretly hidden from the Chinese etc, Buddha and Osho are two extremely different cups of tea. Osho liked to spark our imaginations up comparing himself to Buddha and Christ and it worked. Back in 76 I sat listening to Osho say the following: ‘I am not here to give you the truth. Nobody can give you the truth. Truth you already have, but somehow you have tricked yourself into lies. Now you will need bigger, stronger lies to crush your lies. All philosophies are lies, devices, to help you to come out of your lies.’
Shantam the only thing you need to confront here is that every once in a while your master told a lie, because he saw it as necessary, or else why state the above? Anyone who takes everything that Osho said as God’s honest truth has to be stupid. How do you know that Osho’s story about waiting 700 years in preparation for the right moment to be born wasn’t just a device to add gravity to what he was saying that day? If you don’t lie you must answer that you have no way of knowing that what Osho said was an actual truth or not. This brings it all home to the fact that we must find our own truth in life not somebody elses.
To conclude. The other day Shantam you described me as being, ‘By nature Lokesh seems to be traditional Hindu gurus type; paramhansa Yogananda and punja ji type.’
In respect to your believing Osho’s 700 years in the astral waiting lounge story, I’d say you sound much more of the Paramahansa ilk than I do. That said, I believe Paramahansa Yogananada was an absolutely beautiful human being. Osho, of course, said that no real yogi can write an autobiography. Of course, Osho said this before authoring Glimpses of a Golden Childhood etc, which is a book best described as autobiographical.
Paramahasa is not trustable. He has a conflict of interests, like many ordinary authorities, he is Freemason. I’m not sure If he was although initiated in Mexico like Crowley.
lokesh is totally obsessed with his mission to bring osho down – an endless drivel of negative propaganda telling us all how bad he was –
guru locoji the clever knows the truth (all the imagination of one who cannot see roses but only thorns) and has a compulsion to paint osho as merely a lying drug addict who fooled him for a while – until he had the fortune to meet his saintly moralist guru daddyji – another anti osho propagandist who taught him it was okay to do the same – whos master was the even more saintly cow guru ramarshitji, worshiped by millions for dressing in a nappy and trampling through the holy cow dung
when will lokesh get over this obsession with osho the evil one – who can tell – its been thirty two years now since he stopped thinking of himself as oshos sannyasin – but couldnt stop thinking of osho
he was young then, now he is old – there is every possibility now he will never get over it – the cracked record of his mind playing the same groove over and over for ever -
(ED: THIS POST HAS BEEN SLIGHTLY EDITED)
Not hard to press your buttons, is it, DR? Eh?!
But there’s not a lot of difference really between what you accuse Lokesh of and your defamatory remarks about Papaji and Ramana, is there?
Reminds me of the way football fans go on about their team and other clubs. Same sort of drivel, just different objects of emotional attachment.
When it comes down to it, I don’t recall writing anything about Osho that was not based on fact, unless, of course, I was obviously joking. So, come on Dhyanrage what exactly have I said about Osho that is not true, taking into account something I said in jest.
Your master, Swami Rajneesh, was slagging me off big time when I wrote about young sannyasin women in the seventies being press-ganged into having irreversible steralizations performed on them down at the clinic in Deccan Gynkhana. I think the Swami had not previously been well informed about this period in ashram life. Yet he called me a lunatic and a liar.
So, Dhyanrage, lets hear from you and that third rate impersonator you call your master on this subject. If you do not give an intelligent response to my request I will just take it as another indication that you are all talk and bluster with very little of substance to back up your claims. You actually believe you will help change the consciousness of humanity while all the time displaying that you are simply an unconscious blowhard who blurts out any old crappola as long as it fits in the picture of you and Brian saving the world and maintaining Osho’s legacy, whatever you imagine that to be.
yes guru locoji – a cracked record – the same negative groove over and over – exaggerating the thorns and ignoring the rose –
why are you doing it ?
isnt it time to put on your nappy and buy a cow ? – to make a cave in your garden and silently radiate your “truth” ?
but you cant help yourself can you ?
you must open the wounds in your mental groove again and again and again – calling it “truth”
I repeat, Your master, Swami Rajneesh, was slagging me off big time when I wrote about young sannyasin women in the seventies being press-ganged into having irreversible steralizations performed on them down at the clinic in Deccan Gynkhana. I think the Swami had not previously been well informed about this period in ashram life. Yet he called me a lunatic and a liar.
So, Dhyanrage, lets hear from you and that third rate impersonator you call your master on this subject. If you do not give an intelligent response to my request I will just take it as another indication that you are all talk and bluster with very little of substance to back up your claims.
I’m reminded of one or two east European women at SN disbelieving the tales of extremely er, ‘loose’ (!) sexual goings-on at the Poona ashram during its heyday, after complaining at the unwanted attention they had got there during a recent visit. They had clearly been unprepared for this, so God only knows what sort of picture Swami R & co. had painted of the place and its resident ‘old hands’, of the general sannyasin ethos around that area….
to say women were “press ganged” to be sterilized is a typical exaggeration and lying propaganda from the anti osho guru locoji – press ganged means they were forced against their will – a lie
if some women saw the merit in having themselves sterilized, enjoying life for themselves and focusing on the journey of sannyas alone rather than wasting another life bringing up children then i dont see anything wrong in it –
ive known many women who have spent their lives worrying about their sons and daughters and struggling through to ensure their survival and completely neglecting their own growth to do so – by the time the children are settled in ther own lives they are in their fifties and are burnt out, too late for them to embark on a sannyas journey, which needs the energy of youth
no sannyasin woman has ever complained to me that they really wanted to have children and regret having themselves sterilised –
in contrast several women have complained to me that if they had known what they were getting into in having children they would have avoided it
SD- one of the perils of having “followers” without the master present.. those eastern european women are generally repressed sexually, almost as bad as the Indian women.. Idealizing the past, in denial of how it actually was and what types of people hung out and took sannyas… Painting a rosy picture , just because they can’t take the truth, maybe its because they don’t want to believe that their personal spiritual journey has led them to an organization that has many stains on its clothing.. they want purity at any cost, even to go so far has to keeping their heads up their arses.
Light the blue touch paper and off goes the rajaholic…
(ED: THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED)
I find DeRage’s reponse to the steralization programme to be appaling. Utterly brainwashed crap!
Take the following as an example…’if some women saw the merit in having themselves sterilized, enjoying life for themselves and focusing on the journey of sannyas alone rather than wasting another life bringing up children then i dont see anything wrong in it –
‘wasting another life bringing up children’ This just sounds utterly negative. As I sit writing this, my 8 year old grandson is quietly eating his scrambled eggs, like the beautiful little angel he is. I brought up my son for some years in Poona One and it was one of the best parts of the whole story…he really did have a golden childhood, partly because of all the wonderful aunties and uncles he had there. And what of your mother, DeRage? Did she also waste another life bringing you up? Going by your above comment I feel that she may well have done so bringing such an ungrateful wretch into the world.
One preliminary question psychiatrists ask to determine the depth of a patient’s mental illness is ‘do you feel uncomfortable around children?’ With a fucked-up attitude like yours I would expect to hear an answer of ‘yes’.
One of the most spiritual journeys many people embark on is bringing up children. Many enlightened people had children.
In essence I find your response, Dhyanraj, despicable.
The steralizations took place when you were not involved with sannyas. It had faded out by the time latecomers like you showed up in the eighties. I was there from beginning to end during this particular episode and I am not lying as you self-righteously claim.
There was great psychological pressure and guilt laid upon sannyasins to get steralised. No exaggeration. Young women in their teens underwent, what was to be discovered later, almost irreversible surgical procedures. A few years back one of those young women decided she would like to have children. She underwent corrective surgery in Australia and forfeited her life as a direct result of that surgery.
All in the name of spiritual growth. Reading some of your insane comments, Dhyanraj, I wonder what you imagine spiritual growth and where your sannyas journey has taken you. Dancing around with Swami Rajneesh and feeling the energy seems to be about the extent of it. This requires little intelligence, and besides what stops fathers and mothers doing that? And you are one of the sad cases who think they are raising humanity’s consciousness. What a sick joke.
I can’treally say why Bhagwan dreamt up the steralization programme, but I do know that thousands of young men and women underwent it. The adults, well it was ultimately their responsibility. As for the teenagers, I see it as a piece of lunacy. Thankfully that period drew to a close relatively quickly. Yes, I heard Osho’s rap live on the steralization trip. To some it made sense, to others not. Apart from the spiritual growth aspects, Osho was also talking about the need for population control, which might be true for India, but certainly not western society, where there are not enough young people around to support the social support time- bomb, set in motion by the baby boomers, that is going off right about now.
As Osho reminded us often enough, he was human just like us and therefore capable of making a mistake. In my opinion the steralization programme was one of his greatest.
Why do you think that at a recent gathering of Poona One somebodies Diksha, the great zen mistress of Poona One, had the guts to stand up and beg forgiveness for any damage she may have caused to other’s lives during Poona One times?
Those were crazy times, Dhyanraj and you were not there to witness it and I was, much to your obvious resentment and in spite of your spurious connection to Osho. Crazy times indeed, most of it was a blast, but there were some very dark shadows cast in Osho’s masterpiece. You can view that how ever you want…as a contrast to the fantastically bright colours or representitive of our shadow self etc.
When you speak about raising humanities consciousness I see it as a sad joke, because you are obviously operating from a very blinkered vision in terms of expanded consciousness.
Me? I’ve learned my lessons well and in regards to the more unsavoury aspects of sannyas life I certainly hope I’ve grown beyond that because the world is a better place without them. So off you go, Dhyanrage, continue to play gurus and disciples with your new master and continue to do what you’ve always done…learn nothing from your mistakes and the people you are ever so deeply connected with, including Osho.
A strong and even absolute understandable allegation. However I know many woman and they are not Sannyasins, whom not feel to bringing up their Childs in that world. It is their standpoint also absolute understandable. Kids are not a commodity to keep the society running as it does. Surely even Congo children will have nice moments; any Moment is worth living. The West only decides with arrogance if they like to support that construct and ask for more Kids to safe the old age pension.
I recall a sannyasin friend of mine in London who was so outraged by the sterilisation programme that it was a major factor leading to her dropping sannyas altogether.
I first walked into the med centre, Lonsdale Square, in 1975. I was only 18 and had never heard of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.
(I found my way there via a meditation course advertisement)
I have seen the huge changes that have taken place over all these years some close-up, some from a distance.
I got involved at an age before I had any family commitments and have never acquired any.
I know the advantage of being totally free.
But I am not sure I would proclaim that’s right for everyone.
I remember the days when children were to be the stars of the ashram.
A young woman I knew was very excited and proud to be taking her young son to meet Bhagwan.
Poonam’s two little girls were always around. (I used to babysit for her so that I
could read the books at the centre without buying them)
It was always my understanding that the new commune was to be a place
where everybody shared responsibility for the children so that the parents
could find some space if they needed to – knowing that their children were being cared for.
If that changed – for whatever reason – then like most things in the crazy world of ‘sannyas’
for those involved – I assume – it seemed a good idea at the time.
There are many photos of Osho happily with children – I cannot say the same for swami R.
Reading the online brochure for Ozen Cocom I see no mention or space for them.
Strange for what is described as an “eco village project”
Anubodh, I remember your name from the 70′s in London…Were you the Anubodh who played a few games for the sannyas football team around that time? Maybe not, as I recall you looked a bit older than 19 or 20!
Yes SD you remember my name because hundreds of Ma’s used to chant it from the sidelines.
I played a couple games in the Chalk
Farm era Vs the cast from the musical ‘Ipi tombi’ (I’ll always
remember that game as my third goal was never offside!)
and RADA (Royal Academy of Dramatic Art)
I decided to quit before getting injured and risking the decent standard I was playing on Saturdays.
I remember from the earlier Kalptaru days
when – Rajneesh sannyasins – were part of the
‘Mind Body Spirit Festival’ and the organisers
(in their infinite wisdom) put us next to the Hari Krishna.
It was probably my fault for starting the slanging match
(nothing changes) by goading one of the Krishna guys
to ‘defect’ with the promise of
“loads of booze and much better looking women”
This emerging ‘old boys network’ is bound to fuel
DR’s suspicion of a conspiracy.
it seems you think my comment is threatening the existence of your grandchild lokesh – really i hope he has a long and happy future
my mother who you bring into it was not a sannyasin – she had many children, grandchildren and great grandchildren – and loved them all – as we loved her
not everyone in the world has to live a life devoted to bringing up children – there are more than enough doing that – in my own small family there are today 15 people alive who trace their ancestry to the union between my mother and father
to live a life of freedom and dive deeply within oneself i dont see it is helpful to always be worried what the children are up to – transformation of energy requires one to have energy freely available in the first place – if that energy is constantly engaged with a child there is no time for such things as sannyas other than as a secondary matter – the primary one is the children
i see lokesh you find anyone leading a sannyas life is despicable, rudely labelling them as haters of children
i have had a child myself lokesh and spent a couple of years of my youth changing nappies, pushing prams and giving the feeding bottle – yes there is great love for the child and a bondage to that child which continues through life
what a joke you are lokesh with your assumptions and ridiculous outrage, and continual focusing of attention narrowly on the “dark shadows” of sannyas, ignoring all the benefits osho brought into our lives
and blaming osho because someone chose themselves to go into an unnecessary surgery and died of it is ridiculous yet typical of the warped mindset you display every day
nice one Lokes-also the guys were told to get sterilized too and let us not forget that many a sannyasin ma also worked as prostitutes in India, and if a ma got pregnant- off they went to get an abortion… a nice and tight ship was being run
Lokesh wrote: “There was great psychological pressure and guilt laid upon sannyasins to get steralised. No exaggeration. Young women in their teens underwent, what was to be discovered later, almost irreversible surgical procedures. A few years back one of those young women decided she would like to have children. She underwent corrective surgery in Australia and forfeited her life as a direct result of that surgery.
All in the name of spiritual growth.”
However great was the “psychological pressure and guilt laid upon sannyasins to get steralised [sic],” and i was there too and i don’t think it was SO great, it was not a “press-gang,” as you were writing earlier. Thus you are already guilty of exaggerating. Many sannyasins felt liberated, as DR claimed, from the (to them) onerous possibility of creating children. It’s okay for them to feel that way. There are more than enough children in the world.
A few had later regrets, as happens also with “normal people” outside of sannyas, and wanted their sterilizations reversed. So it goes. Disha, the woman you mention who died as a result of her tubal pregnancy, ran into a most unfortunate combination of circumstances. It would be irresponsible in the extreme to attribute her death solely to her sterilization and the alleged pressure put on her. The largest factor in her death, which cannot be ignored, is the incompetence, amounting to malpractice, of the doctor she consulted when she was experiencing the abdominal pains that preceded her death. Any competent doctor would have investigated the possibility of a tubal pregnancy and taken appropriate measures when it was found. Tubal pregnancies do not cause deaths in modern medicine except when undiagnosed, and diagnosis is not difficult.
Good post, Sarlo. I’m afraid I do not agree with you about how much pressure was being applied. I worked in the groups department at the time and I underwent a lot of presure because of my resistance to getting steralised. Mexican Rupesh, RIP, was one of my mates at the time and after surgery he experienced a lot of pain for about a year. I was labelled unsurrendered, resistant and all that shit, just because I said no, I don’t want to do that. Yes, press-ganged is exaggerated…coerced is more accurate(I forgot the right word and just chucked press-ganged in because I was too lazy to come up with something more accurate). Thanks for correcting me, you are right to do so. I am correct in saying teenagers as young as fourteen underwent the procedure. Sarlo, can you honestly say that was a good idea?
Mysteriously, there is no “reply” button below Lokesh’s post below, so this apparent reply to my own post is really to his below. Perhaps this is another way he arranges to have the last word …
(ED: PLEASE CHECK YOUR COMPUTER, SARLO!)
If you’re asking about the teenagers getting sterilized, i can honestly say i don’t know. Life is too short to bother having opinions on everything, and this issue is not simple. If you’re asking about sterilization in general, i can easily say that it’s a good idea, having undergone the procedure myself before i ever heard of Osho.
The thing worth discussing here imo is peer pressure, and i wouldn’t call it coercion either fwiw, that being another no-options deal. Peer pressure is tough, yes, and is one of the many things we have to learn to deal with in life. That it should be generated among sannyasins, who “should” know better … ha ha! Of course it was generated, just like the proto/crypto-fascism that happened at the ranch. These unseemly things happened because they need to happen in RL. We cannot process our unconscious tendencies just by listening to Osho speak about them. We listen, nod sagely and … nothing happens! So peer pressure happens, and sometimes it’s misguided, sannyasins as a group fuck up. Just like at the ranch. So what! Learn from it. Grow from it.
About the teenagers, they wanted to experiment with sex. There’s nothing wrong with that. Period. Except … Quite possibly in a number of cases, they did not get adequate guidance, mentoring, whatever you want to call it, especially in the atmosphere of anything goes (on the one hand) and everyone is your aunt and uncle (so no one takes responsibility otoh). So a few kids fell between the cracks in “the system” and couldn’t cope with pedophiles, a few of whom showed up and took advantage of the situation. Some kids were abused and plied with drugs and their lives spun out of control. (I have heard.) Such casualties exist also in the mainstream society but they were imo largely avoidable if parents and we collectively had been more proactive, not in laying a trip on them but just being available.
Measured against that, a few “inappropriate” sterilizations don’t look so bad imo, given that no one should ever die from a tubal pregnancy in this day and age, but i wouldn’t want to say it was a good idea either. I don’t know, and teenagers will have the hardest time resisting peer pressure and shouldn’t have to in such “important” decisions. IMO probably the biggest factor if any teenage sterilization was inappropriate was parental neglect, rather than some folks’ zealotry.
they were adults Sarlo, quite capable of making rational decisions for themselves- so blame no one(if there is any blame) except themselves.. that’s life- no laying trips on others because the supposedly “forced” their way upon them.. they aren’t 7 year olds, nor 15 year olds.
Okay, i am replying to Honeysucklerose but the reply button is way up above, after my first post in this sub-thread, so let’s see where this ends up. The point is only that Lokesh raised the issue of 14-year-olds being sterilized, so that is what i was addressing. That sub-sub-thread is not about adults. It is about teenagers being pressured.
Evil white-skin Sarlo is trying to undermine Lokesh’s work by stating the following,,,,” Perhaps this is another way he arranges to have the last word …’
I don’t need to arrange anything to have the last word because I already have it.
Say three hail Marys and look in the mirror and all will be forgiven. My compassion is infinite.
no chance mate.
zygote.
FWIW, the reply button last night was supplied as i said, so i wrote what i did, but when my comment (any reply to that?) was “posted,” ie up in place but still awaiting moderation and uneditable, it appeared in the right place after Lokesh’s post. So Parmartha is right but somewhere in the communication between SN and my computer, it displayed weirdly
Too late, Sarlo. The duck is out! We all know you are working for Amrito.
Lokesh, to be honest, every disciple knows, Osho was also a bluff master, but over all, intention was good, it was helpful and was out of compassion.
He had grand plans. He wanted to compete with big super markets, it is a known fact, religious super markets are the most brutal ones; almost in the same league as Maxican drug loards, when someone tries to snatch their customer base.
Surely thousands of Indian priests are surviving and growing in USA. From my own religion, Yogi Bhajan did a marvellous job.Snatan Kaur is one such finest musician from his school.
PS_ Yes i am part of a religion. If it pisses off those who think they have droped their conditionings, well and good!
Shantam, how dare you insult our beloved master by calling him a bluff master. You are obviously an ex-sannyasin in league with the therapriests at OIF. If you need to insult our master why come to a sannyas website? Why not go to Golden Temple? I’ve been there several times and free chappatis and dahl served by Sikh wallahs are excellent. Jai Nanuk!
Lols and i am sure Osho is laughing too.
Neither by sitting on a chair by having one leg above the other, nor by walking with Namaste or by by long beard or by talking about Jesus, Buddha, Kabir Nanak or by salting this all through bluff spices; one can become OSHO Like.
On any given date, i think few hundred Charlie Chaplins are entertaining the people around the world. One i see every other year in Europa Park!
I’d choose Charlie Chaplin’s company over Swami Rajneesh’s eight days a week. Charlie made the whole world laugh and helped make the world a better place, and he didn’t need Gautam the Buddha’s help. He just got out there and did it. Jai Charlie Baba!
rather its gautam buddha and osho who need rajneeshs help –
rajneesh is in the body and able to act in the world today –
they can only act through him or someone like him –
but people like rajneesh capable of dissolving themselves are not widely available
of course i know this of no interest to guru locoji – who only wants to have a laugh – preferably at osho and rajneesh – and to spread negative propaganda about them – loosely based on fact of course to give his bullshit an appearance of credibility
he was saying earlier on how gautam could never be allied with osho and the sannyas movement as credo about sex would prevent him – showing his utter ignorance of the buddhas –
they are not fixed on any dogma or credo – they are conscious beings who work in their own way in their own times – dogma or form is not their thing – consciousness is
buddha entered oshos body for a few days – merging with osho – i saw oshos eyes on the video – so big – much bigger than usual
“rather its gautam buddha and osho who need rajneeshs help –
rajneesh is in the body and able to act in the world today –
they can only act through him or someone like him –
but people like rajneesh capable of dissolving themselves are not widely available”
Sorry, DR, but this is sheer delusion – laughably so, in fact.
Buddha and Osho, if they were/are anything, are one with Life itself, they don’t require anyone’s help, let alone Swami R’s!
Perhaps you simply spent too many years in India, ending up stuck with all sorts of bullshine in your head masquerading as ‘higher Truth’?
Often, there’s little more absurd than a westerner pretending to be an Indian and I suspect you might have fallen into that ‘endarkened’ condition….
its not osho or gautam themselves who need rajneeshs help satyadeva – as you say they need no help for themselves – and neither does rajneesh – they already have attained to consciousness and their transformation
its the sannyasins who need the help – and who gautam, osho and rajneesh want to help to come to the state where they are
and as rajneesh is the living buddha who can act in the world, gautam and osho need him not for themselves but to help their people
“and as rajneesh is the living buddha who can act in the world…”
I don’t think I can stand this sort of stuff much longer…
You have no idea how stupidly mistaken this whole idea is. It’s based on what one might term ‘the hubris of the disciple over-attached and over-identified with the teacher’.
If he – aided by the likes of you – is our only hope then God help us all!
What a load of misinformed nonsense. DeRage, don’t you know that it took many years of persuasion before Buddha allowed women to join the Sangha? You think Buddhist monks want to hang out at the Boozeria in the hope of getting a one night stand with Ma Shakti and her spanking new hairbrush?
DeRage, you poclaim, ‘of course i know this of no interest to guru locoji – who only wants to have a laugh.’
For a start I’ve no interest in being a guru….unless I’m offered a lot of money. And second, what exactly is wrong with having a laugh? Your master, Osho, told me that laughter is the very essence of Zen. Was I wrong to take his word on that?
yes laughter is the best way to reach to no mind lokesh – laughing and thinking at the same time is difficult – and a total laughter wipes the mind completely
yet your jokes and laughter are gained only by putting down others lokesh and demonstrate a desire to enhance your mind rather than rise above it – using a clever mind to feed your ego – an ego that can only be strong by pulling down such as osho – the threat to your mind
a genuine hearty laugh needs no victim or cleverness – but an innocent and open heart
i have heard the history of women and buddhas commune lokesh and am as informed as you are – you take the outer forms the sannyas movement and mystery schools have taken through time to be what they were about – ignorant of the inner truth of the transformation of consciousness they were really about which is common to all forms and dependant on none
and your other point lokesh – you are a guru – a teacher of others –
your whole teaching can be summed up as no one should be involved with osho or his disciples, they are terrible people to be avoided -
i guru lokeshji know what is right and osho is misleading you as is his devotee rajneesh
a negative teaching from someone who only sees the triviality of the outer forms and has no knowing of the inner mystery
“a genuine hearty laugh needs no victim or cleverness – but an innocent and open heart”
In which case, DR, the vast majority, if not all, of your hahaha’s here have been completely and utterly false, just a defence mechanism of one who knows he’s been cornered.
Judging by the pompous, sermonising manner of many of your contributions here, including the above, I’d say you’re suffering from a quite acute case of ‘guru-itis’, a common enough affliction among those who’ve been around a spiritual teacher for long enough to imagine they actually ‘know something’ themselves rather than simply having borrowed it from their teacher.
I said it when DeRage first showed up on SN. Here’s a chappie who fell out his pram and cracked his helmet. I was right again. Whopee! Mind you, he’s sticking to his gattling gun. Only two toes left.
perhaps its sheela in disguise, trying to re-write the osho/sannyas history.. show me your legs sweetie….
Why don´t you and your generation( including me), get it like this that rajneesh or Stayarthi, Samdarshi or few othwe names are fullfiling an existantial need.
New people have also the inspirations to meet and surrunder to some one divine.
To be true, if i have not lived in the ashram in the presence of Osho or His alive energyfield, i would also have the hunger to find someone.
Why people should eat the left over of the last generation. Why they should listen Lokesh or Shantam, that how good and high energy it was, and master was playing tricks and so on.
Humanity should never be this much humble to listen the stories from those, who have seen the movie.
Nobody should be contented just by watching posters.
Shantaam asks, ‘Why they should listen Lokesh or Shantam?’
I’ve no idea. How about some clues.
@ swami satyam dhyanraj
Your an odd character.
You see straight through Lokesh, yet have absolutely no insight into
Swami Rajneesh.
Personally I have far more respect for you than S.R.
The other thing is, I do admire the way you have stood your ground against this lot.
Your all as bad as each other really.
Absolutely determined to have the last word, but you have stood your ground against the four of them, and shown some insight at the same time.
Kudos to you.
Namaste.
Arpana
Dhyanrage can only see through me because I am invisible. As far as his insight goes…ehm…haven’t seen much evidence of that. Still, it looks like you’ve found a pal. Do you know that old Roy Orbison song, >Only the Lonely. Well you can stop playing it every night, Arps, because you’re obviously in love. Note the spelling of you’re. It’s all in the details.
If you had waited a little while I would have thought you don’t give a shit, but you reacted instantly, as I expected you to.
Arps, babe, pure coincidence I assure you. Admiring Dhyanrage is a bad sign. Sticking to his guns, which are always blazing as time after time he shoots himself in the foot. Snuggling up to him you better order lots of gunshot wound bandages from army surplus.
Well, Arpana, standing one’s ground is not necessarily a virtue in itself, it might be down to being foolish enough to believe totally in something that could be dubious, highly suspect or even plain evil.
All fully paid-up, properly qualified fanatics stand their ground, stubbornly clinging to their concepts, beliefs and causes, even against all apparent odds, until the very last.
A good question to ask anyone in that situation is what would be the imagined ‘cost’ to him of giving up, capitulating, admitting he’d got it wrong. Except that such a person would be unlikely to give a straight answer.
You are all trying to have the last word and you know it,
although I have felt you are a little more aware of that than the others.
I’m amazed you don’t see through Lokesh.
You strike me as insightful.
Arpana, I’m wallowing in ignorance, please don’t be fooled.
And that is why I have some respect for you.
Me too, although I would have said comfortable about not being sure about anything any more.
The invisible man is the new man, an evolution from Zorba the Buddha. Osho from the Astro Lounge.
PS…the last word is all mine. Mine I tell you!
kalptaru…..
http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/communication-en-b51bfe3ab487240e05a26d0851db225d.html
Told you.
according to a “People” magazine article dated October 7th 1985, Sheela ordered a pilot to load a plane with explosives and aim it at the county courthouse before bailing out.. now that allegation is something new to me..WOW!!!
HSL, the last word is mine all mine. I have to prove that Arps is right about something or he’ll end up developing a massive inferiority complex like his best mate, DeRage.
Now, Honey, please let me continue with what I see as an act of infinite compassion.