The Context of Osho’s Birth

The Culture and Sociology of Osho’s Birth

Osho was born in the hamlet of Kuchwada, in the state of Madyha Pradesh in central India. Some biographers have left the actual date of Osho’s birth open to question, saying his mother could not  really remember the exact day, or even year of his birth, so astrologers beware!  The nearest big town is Bhopul,  112 km distant. It looks like really in the middle of nowhere on goggle maps. There is a Japanese Sannyasin settlement there now where apparently visitors can pay to stay.

Disciples and lovers of Osho could be a little more aware of the cultural and sociological circumstances of his birth as they may help to even “understand” Osho as a teacher, just as the background to Luther might help us understand that other great and brave man at the time of the reformation.

Osho was the first born (there were to follow 10 siblings)  into a family of Digambar Jains of the Taranpanthi sect.   The Jain religion  as a whole was and still is a very minority religion in India, (Said to be less than one per cent of the population as a whole). Osho was therefore born into a small minority, and within Jainism was part of a distinct sect, the Taranpanthis,  that were very aligned to Mahavira, the last famous historical teacher of the Jains, who insisted on nakedness amongst his sannyasins. The Taranpathi were the wing of Jainism which believed this tradition should continue within its monk fraterity as a rigid rule, other Jains are less preoccupied by this.

Naked Jain Statues

The origins of Jainism are unclear but thought to arise from early criticisms of Hinduism in the way that Buddhism also arose from later criticisms of Hinduism. Historians say that it arose within the context of the so-called Indus Valley Civilisation.  Certainly  Osho was brought up without the handicap of the cultural conditioning of the Hindu caste system, but he would have been aware of being very much in a minority. It is known that Jainism predated Buddhism by several hundred years.

Some commentators say that Osho was born into rural poverty. As far as I can see from my research this is not true. His father owned a cloth shop, and was known as an entrepreneur, and the family did not live in poverty.  However it was a pretty remote place at that time.   Literacy amongst Jains far outstrips other Indian religions, including Christian and Buddhist.  Commentators say that the Jains are the best educated and most successful business class in India.   I do not pretend some academic preeminence in knowing about Jainism and happy for others in this forum to add to it,  but feel that the above facts do give a background sketch that may be valuable for discussion.

Unlike some commentators I myself see the paradigm of “enlightenment” that arose from Hinduism, whilst it used different vocabulary and carried over in further different vocabularies into Buddhism and Jainism,  as unhelpful. However it was part of the the very cultural and sociological  soil into which Osho was born, and he did not think outside of it.  But the concept would not have arisen for many spiritual traditions, and those as far apart as Rumi, Gurdjieff and Jesus (amongst many others) would not have had it within their cultural presuppositions.  In addition at the time when Osho was teaching Zen Buddhism was all the rage in the west, and many hankered for the indelible security which enlightenment seemed to offer.  My point is that even “enlightenment” is a culturally bound concept and cannot hold the whole truth of the human condition.

This short entry is to highlight the fact that even the “enlightened” are culturally and sociologically bound, and it is not possible to simply ignore such factors. In fact by looking at these sort of considerations it will even increase our understanding, and also our discrimination and critical awareness – and without malice or prejudice.

Parmartha

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126 Responses to The Context of Osho’s Birth

  1. Preetam says:

    Just yesterday and the day before I thought about the matter Enlightenment, and how it was invented, perhaps. Guess, Enlightenment is invented by unenlightened people, for their own purpose. Maybe it is one of the biggest impacts unto Humanities awareness. With the invention of Enlightenment the act of oblation was brought to the outside, away of our self.

    I have read often pages of the Vedas and couldn’t find “Enlightenment”. The Veda speaks about a Hotri and a victorious reward. I would say, the Hotri is leading the oblation for the service. He is leading the inner oblation at the dwelling place of the folk. All is an inner realization, nothing at the outside. It is a doxology unto the self, not encomia to the outside world.

    Yes, it must be spin-offs from Hinduisms/Vedas, Jainism and Buddhism are incurred, possibly due to dissatisfaction with authorities of the former Hinduisms or in case of greed the motive power and money will have to distance themselves. Being already King of a country but to make the citizens easier controllable, create a Religion onto your Idea. Empire by King and Priest one Family as it was in the time of Buddha’s so called enlightenment. It works till today, and even better with New Age, because those people mostly do not know much about the History and satisfied with what they learned in schools.

    • satyadeva says:

      Well, yes, Preetam, it’s no secret that Church and State have been in an ‘unholy alliance’ for millennia.

      After the original master dies, the trouble, the corruption starts, former disciples disagree, form sects, often ‘at war’ with each other, followed, apparently inexorably, by the powers-that-be eventually ‘co-opting’ a version of the master’s teachings, deliberately watered-down and made into a sort of system of rules of conduct, aka as an ‘official’ religion, a ‘church’. All in the interests of social stability and the preservation of the status quo.

      But it’s not that the ‘religionists’ create the concept of enlightenment, they just use it, embroider it for their own ends.

      We have a front row seat at the start of such a process. Early days yet, but something like that is happening…

      Have a read of DR’s pronouncements, for example….

    • Lokesh says:

      Enlightenment is a word and in this case it is up to the user to add meaning to it. Almost everyone writing on SN shares an approximate idea about what enlightenment means. Enlightenment was not invented by anyone. It is a state of being, or non-being, depending on what school you attended, that exists and has been verified by the pioneers of human consciousness who, for one reason or another, went where so few go. As far as words go I find it a pretty good one.

      • Parmartha says:

        I think Osho wanted to debunk the “enlightenment” concept later in life. For example what do you make of the volume from the Nepal period called “Beyond Enlightenment”?
        Even if enlightenment is a genuine and universally achievable state it is a dangerous presentation, and best kept in the private world, as many Sufi Masters have done.
        This is because the concept divides the world into those who are enlightened and those who are not – with the inevitable hero worship, throwing away of the ego on another’s behalf instead of one’s own, and all the problems associated with “unequal” relationships in any field.

        • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

          the sufi masters kept their knowing private because they were killed if they were discovered

          osho did not declare any of his disciples enlightened unless they had died due to the jealousy of the unenlightened who would – far from hero worship them as parmartha mistakenly says – try to kill them one way or another – that an enlightened person should not exist while i am unenlightened – and the vast majority of humanity is unenlightened and the alone individual is very vulnerable in an ordinary way
          yet very strong in another way

          the idea of parmarthas that buddhas should not mix with the rest of humanity because they make trouble for people is ridiculous in a sannyasin –

          osho would have lived a long life had he not out of compassion made the attempt to awaken humanity a little – and suffered the consequences in the betrayal and misunderstanding of his sannyasins –
          who now demonise and blame him
          for his attention and love once showered on them and now missed

          • satyadeva says:

            But it’s not true that such ‘enlightened’ people are always resented and/or persecuted. Quite a few examples exist of former sannyasins becoming spiritual teachers, without having too many such difficulties.

            It’s as if you’re claiming that as Swami R is ridiculed and not accepted by a large number of his fellow-sannyasins, it therefore must follow that he is ‘enlightened’.

            You miss the blindingly obvious point that he’s basically brought such problems on himself by deciding to imitate Osho’s persona – ie he’s NOT ORIGINAL! For long-term sannyasins, after the vastness of Osho, he simply comes across as a very limited ‘pretender’, a pale shadow of the Master himself. And so not to be taken seriously, except by ‘beginners’ who, however sincere, know no better (which, btw, is not to say they can’t be helped by him, to some extent).

            As for:
            ” …and suffered the consequences in the betrayal and misunderstanding of his sannyasins –
            who now demonise and blame him
            for his attention and love once showered on them and now missed.”

            This is wildly inaccurate, preposterous nonsense. Absurd, in fact. “Demonise and blame him for his attention and love”? Evidence, please!

            Seems to me you’re doing the ‘demonising’ and ‘blaming’, DR. Dividing us all into ‘good’ and ‘bad’, according to what happens to suit your priestly mentality.

        • Lokesh says:

          Truth be told, Parmartha, enlightenment does not figure very much in my life. Golden carrot about sums it up. Nonetheless, Osho and Punjaji were, I suppose, pretty enlightened guys and I enjoyed their company to the max. Everyday life is my prefered path.

        • Preetam says:

          Yes Parmartha, but mostly dividing the world in two pieces does the spiritual seeker and thus he maintains fascism and creates unknowingly insuperable boundaries. Within such distorted irritation as Karma and Enlightenment, Egoism and Fascism is possible, because of the separations from inner and the outer.

  2. Fresch says:

    Who is DR. What pronouncements?

    Preetam, i like your “spinnoff story” .. That is so true, the companies could just so much more innovative..hahhaa, and pay taxes

    • satyadeva says:

      You’ve never heard of DR? I can’t believe it!

      He’s extremely important, both now and in the whole future of ‘real’ sannyas. He knows where it’s really at, and knows that he knows.

      Stick around, he should be popping in later.

      Beware though, he’s easily provoked…

      And when he ‘laughs’ it means he’s actually exploding with rage!

      • Lokesh says:

        Yes, I am shocked that Fresch doesn’t know about the DR, and no it is not a holiday destination in the Caribbean. DR’s way is the way of the new sannyasin….a hotline to Osho in Astral Towers with plenty of secrets tossed in for good measure not to mention Osho’s numero uno sucksessor. All very excitng if you happen to be…ehm…lost.

      • dominic says:

        Be afraid. Be very very little afraid….hahahahaha.

    • Preetam says:

      Yes, sure tax… lots of tax and cleaning Fukushima… now after the companies hijacked countries (Neo Colonialism) they now jack Religions as the Vatican fully proofs.

  3. Preetam says:

    What I mean, if “Enlightenment” would be an invention of unenlightened people, it’s worth not one letter? Wouldn’t people than seek something wrong interpreted, a lie?

    Of course, if there is something like New Age – they idealize and fill missing gaps of understanding with virtue ideas.

    • satyadeva says:

      Preetam:
      Wouldn’t people than seek something wrong interpreted, a lie?
      SD:
      Depends what quality of teacher they have, I suppose.

      • Preetam says:

        Yes; “the quality of the teacher”… his “magic” Quality making it an Upanishad again. “Enlightenment” would have received true content again by the master.

        But… how accurate Enlightenment is if culturally and sociologically it is bound, isn’t it then more asocial according all the societies of present and past?

        Osho must have been seen something unacceptable and worth to challenge? Did he really seek Enlightenment; I guess he was looking for Truth as motive.

  4. Lokesh says:

    Parmartha declares, ‘ Some biographers have left the actual date of Osho’s birth open to question, saying his mother could not really remember the exact day, or even year of his birth, so astrologers beware! ‘
    I was born on 11 December and I know on a deeply existential level that Osho and I share much in common. Love driving big cars, well endowed females, funny hats, sharing our infinite wisdom etc. Yes, I’m pretty sure Osho was born on the 11 of December. Now then, I wonder what the Daily Mirror’s astrooger has to say about today’s Sagitarian prospects.

    • Parmartha says:

      A nephew of Osho told a contributor of SN that the actual date of Osho’s birth was 5th Jan, 1931.

    • bodhi vartan says:

      I share a common interest with the old man that very few have. Watches. One day I might write about his watches. You can tell a lot about a man from his watches. In the late ’60s he wore a tungsten plated Rado Diastar on an NSA bracelet. In the early 2000s I saw a Taliban chief wearing the same watch … what is the connection? None. The way the Swiss industry works is that they concentrate sales of brand names to particular parts of world, and Rado was a name used in India (by the way Felca was used in Cyprus when I was growing up). If you came from that part of world you would think that Rado were good because they didn’t scratch easily. Todays Rado is gold coloured plated PVD on tungsten and it is virtually scratch proof. In ’83 he wanted a VC Kalla but Sheela said no and that was when they started making him those quartz monstrosities and everything went downhill from there.

      • dominic says:

        Watch pornography. What’s it all about?
        Don’t like wearing anything on my body (being a nuddhist). Gave up wristwatches yonks ago, an encumbrence. Sometimes wear a clipwatch on my belt for work, and my iphone aah.. One device to rule them all, who needs more.
        Ok military watch, sounds kinda macho.
        But those jewel encrusted mj and osho watches…yuk. Just look tacky, effeminate and status driven to me.
        Revulsion to anything ‘designer’, might as well throw in those rollers then. If he wasn’t a ‘master’, he’d be one of the first to go come the revolution.
        Guess I’m just a fwee spiwit.

        • Lokesh says:

          Its true, in general Osho had awful taste in watches that cost a platinum arm and a golden leg. Were they also a device to drive the unfit away¿ Or was his watch collecting simply an expensive passtime?

          • dominic says:

            Well some of it’s cultural. People from poorer countries seem to like to bling and glam up, as a status symbol first chance they get. Or subcultures like rap, ‘gold chains and no brains’, again african heritage.
            You can generally spot east europeans too with a certain flashy but cheap dress sense and chavs of course.
            Which to a post hippy generation looks tacky and screams, ‘look at me’ & ‘there goes the egoes’.

            Osho’s bling and rollers a device ? I don’t think so.
            He liked collecting shit and to him it looked good, made him feel good I suppose.
            He seems to have started as a child, collecting stones from the river then books, then disciples.
            He was ‘abandoned’ by his parents and handed to his grandparents.
            I mean they couldn’t remember his birth day or year. So no birthday Parties?
            Maybe some compensatory not so simple “passtime” going on to protect against all this.
            But what do I know? Correct me if I’m wrong.
            ~ Dr. Ophelia Payne

            • Parmartha says:

              I always thought that Osho choose to dress in a totally “Regal” way from about 1981. It confused me at the time as I was used to the simple white robe, and until then apparently fairly hermit like way he used to live, even if he was in the heart of his commune.
              But when you think about it, even going around in even an ordinary robe the whole time – was hardly “ordinary”. Frankly I only ever once wore a robe outside of a meditation centre in the west, to see how it was, traveling from East Finchley to Hampstead in 1978 by tube where there was a sannyas disco going on…. One thing I did notice was that most people did not even “see” me. A few that did jeered!

              • Arpana says:

                Our psychology is very connected to clothes and appearance, certainly for a time in our lives. We read status in clothes. ‘Tribe’ an individual might belong to etc, and I guess, by and large, people wouldn’t have known how to behave towards us because they could read us. The way we dressed sent out very confusing signals.

            • bodhi vartan says:

              In the 3rd world it is very common for kids to be farmed out to relatives and the kid wouldn’t suffer the same as in the west. If you ask me, Osho as a kid didn’t have any friends and as his grandparents were too old to interact with him, he got stuck into books. It happened to many.

              As for the rest, it just has to be accepted that different cultures have different tastes and leave it at that. But everybody knows that a Mercedes is a good car and a Rolex is a good watch. Those two brands are the top two in the world. Yes above coca cola. Don’t look at the lists, products from those two brands can be exchanged for cash, instantly, anywhere in the world.

              • dominic says:

                Crikey BV, you could have been a contender. Advisor to the royal wrist.

                BV:We wants it, we needs it. Must have the precioussss, Mass-tah. (Showing osho the latest diamond encrusted rolex worth 50 million Squindoodlies).
                So bright… so beautiful… ah, Precioussss.
                And mercedesesesss for offroad and fast getawaysesesss.
                And more gamblingsesesss master.
                Only wish to serve mass-tah.
                Osho: Sheela says we can’t afford anymore.
                BV: “Not listening… Not listening…Mass-tah she betrays us, wicked, tricksy, false…nasty, sneaky orc. She wants the preciousss.
                It’s your birthday, you deserves it…
                Put it on…go on…go on…my love…myyy preccccc-iiii-ooo-uu-sss!”

                • Lokesh says:

                  Ah, come of it Dhyanraj, you’re just jealous of Dom because he’s much more witty and funny than you are. Talking about writing rubbish about Osho. Your description of Osho as a special, extraordinary, ordinary man sounds very much like absolute……

                • Lokesh says:

                  Ho-hum. It’s the jealousy you want to study not who or what you project your jealousy and em….er…superiority onto.
                  Of course, DR, you are perhaps the only one who truely understands Osho. Now that is funny.

                • Arpana says:

                  What
                  Do sad people have in
                  Common?

                  It seems
                  They have all built a shrine
                  To the past

                  And often go there
                  And do a strange wail and
                  Worship.

                  What is the beginning of
                  Happiness?

                  It is to stop being
                  So religious

                  Like that.

                  ~Hafiz.~

                • dominic says:

                  DR, We’re just monkeying around.
                  But you are a performing monkey chained to your ‘organ’ grinder.
                  Sure there’s a banana in it for you somewhere.

                • dominic says:

                  You can go off people you know jackboots.
                  Even if you have achieved fooly realised Nutterhood.
                  As God’s representative on earth, you must be a masochrist to inflict all this self-torture on yourself. But hey whatever rocks your Reich!
                  It’s a widdle wrapped in a misery inside of a dogma.

                  Actually seems you managed to fill the emptiness inside with an authoritarian idolatry, that gives a sense of meaning, purpose, and certainty to your life.
                  Easy quick fix. No need to think for yourself anymore, or feel unsure, or trust your instincts, or find the guru within.
                  All comes as an off the shelf, flat packed, easy to assemble kit. Why even a holzkopf like you should be able to manage it. ;)

                • dominic says:

                  SS Die an’ Rage: “Achtung Achtung, Sannyas papers please!…
                  Scheisse! Gott in himmel! Zey are not in ordnung!
                  Zecure ze badassnews area!
                  You vill be punished very zeverely.
                  Wir Gehen zu mir!
                  Ich habe ein Fass Achsenschmiere und eine grosse Fahrradpumpe.”
                  (We go to my place.
                  I have a tub of axle grease and a large bicycle pump.)

                • frank says:

                  watch out,dom

                  open letter from brian clone, 2nd in line in forthcoming lineage of masters of the human race and chief loonitenant of the EDL(enlightenment defence league)

                  our great lunghen-fuhrer brian doppelganger von rajniesche spits on
                  ex-sannyasins and homosexuals who suggests that members of the waffle SS (sanyasins in sarongs)or are members of the muslin brotherhood, will be “hammered” until they are “sore” by an irony-free ordinary 80s freddie mercury lookalike

                • dominic says:

                  Thx vor die hedds up frank.
                  Ich bin ein Berliner.
                  Operation mercury has been mounted.
                  I have my own weapons,
                  including a death ray ‘black magic woman’ mantra c.1989.

                  If he tries it on, I shall evacuate my base chakra on the Grand Poo-bah’s military helmet, and hammer on his rock,
                  before I surrender to Brian von Munchausen(a wellknown fantasist) and the Klewless Klucking Klan.
                  Semperfi

            • Preetam says:

              Do you mean that the rich countries are more humble than poor countries?

              Red Carpets, Royal shows, impressive Trojans (Cars), expensive Brilliants it is the same bling and glam, just more money available, stolen from the poor. Perhaps, I misunderstood?

  5. swami satyam dhyanraj says:

    parmartha is saying
    “My point is that even “enlightenment” is a culturally bound concept and cannot hold the whole truth of the human condition.”

    parmartha – enlightenment s not a concept other than to the unenlightened who create their own ideas about it

    enlightenment is not a concept or an idea at all
    it is a state beyond the mind – when the mind stops and its energy is transformed into an awake consciousness

    such a thing happens to someone he sees clearly and feels he is reborn a new man entirely – free and without fear
    most people die in the intensity of the explosion
    very few come back to living in the bodymind machine -

    usually they keep quiet – or their relatives may give them electro shock treatment as happened to a friend of mine – that you are no more the same man – you have gone mad and need the hospital

    occasionally a strong and courageous individual like osho or rajneesh shows up and feels compassionate – they have to help the miserables all around them toward the state that they experience – they know it is everyones true nature and the sleep has to be broken to allow consciousness – the buddha – to arise

    and look how people behave with these courageous pioneers of human transformation who reveal themselves in order to help others come to the same state

    • satyadeva says:

      DR:
      and look how people behave with these courageous pioneers of human transformation who reveal themselves in order to help others come to the same state

      SD:
      Absolutely, DR, many such suffer from guru-itis and begin new careers as priests-cum-missionaries, determined to inform all the ignorants of where it’s all really at – even when the ‘ignorants’ have heard it all scores of times before.

      Born to bore, I suppose….

    • Arpana says:

      Dyanraj said
      parmartha – enlightenment s not a concept other than to the unenlightened who create their own ideas about it.

      How can you possibly know that? Your not enlightened.

      • satyadeva says:

        He’s a parrot-priest, Arpana – it’s just what they do….

      • bodhi vartan says:

        Enlightenment is wonderful to seek and stupid to find. But if found, one should stop being a disciple and start looking for his own disciples or whatever it is that enlightened ppl do.

        So if anyone is enlightened he should stay away from here because we are already somebody else’s disciples.

        • Kavita says:

          ‘Enlightenment is wonderful to seek and stupid to find. ….. So if anyone is enlightened he should stay away from here because we are already somebody else’s disciples.’ – does this mean stupid persons should not be allowed here & Iam not a stupid seeker ? how wonderful is that !

          • bodhi vartan says:

            When I said that enlightenment is stupid to find, I meant it in the context where ppl go around saying that they have found god, or jesus, and all that.

            Psssst … the next big-ting is going to be expanded consciousness. None of that narrow ordinary stuff. You will be able to look in and out at the same time.

            • Kavita says:

              could you further explain the context for ‘ Psssst … the next big-ting is going to be expanded consciousness. None of that narrow ordinary stuff. You will be able to look in and out at the same time.’ ? , you sound enlightened to me , as mostly these days when I don’t understand a context , I tell myself , perhaps that’s an enlightened one’s statement .

              • Arpana says:

                Careful Varts. Kavita is getting the hang of this blokey leg pulling.

              • bodhi vartan says:

                You must have been reading Osho because it’s an Osho quote paraphrased. I have no idea what it means … but as you can see, it works.

                • Kavita says:

                  I have not been reading Osho , probably its a Greek translation stored in the back of your mind or some place else . tfn

              • bodhi vartan says:

                Kavita says:
                >> I have not been reading Osho , probably its a Greek translation stored in the back of your mind or some place else . tfn

                Let’s start again.

                >> does this mean stupid persons should not be allowed here & Iam not a stupid seeker ? how wonderful is that !

                What does that actually mean in English?

                What I said was, that if anyone is enlightened he/she shouldn’t come here because in general those who DECLARE enlightenment they tend to do it for a reason, and that reason is an attempt to impress others. Otherwise, why bother to say anything?

                >> & Iam not a stupid seeker ? how wonderful is that !

                Perhaps what you meant to say was: “& Iam a stupid seeker ? how wonderful is that !” Kavita, we are all stupid seekers, looking for a cat, that we think Osho had. So the presentation of any expanded consciousness should presented in action and not words because the verbiage has already been extensively covered by Osho.

                • Kavita says:

                  No BV , I meant it Iam not a stupid seeker , in context to ‘Enlightenment is wonderful to seek and stupid to find.’ . as I even though may have found that which I seek ( please no comparisons to anyone’s ) and further go on seeking but this time with no intention to reach anywhere , just to be in the company of least fanatic co-disciples of the same physical master perhaps .

  6. Fresch says:

    Ok, now i got who is DN. This site is manifestation of The compassion.

    DN.. You mean well, but, but…

  7. Lokesh says:

    DR declares, ‘give them electro shock treatment as happened to a friend of mine’.
    Another of Swami Rajneesh’s secrets revealed and DR wonders why his electric bill is so high.

    • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

      what good does your lying spin do you lokesh ?
      do you think you are elevated in your attempts to put others down ?

      i know one friend who this happened to – his family gave him electro shock treatment to stop him laughing and dancing all the day after his “satori” he called it – how can he laugh? – he makes us look stupid
      get the doctor in and force him to the asylum

      rajneesh has suffered many abuses including the regular abuse from you lokesh – but this experience happened to another friend

      • satyadeva says:

        DR:
        what good does your lying spin do you lokesh ?
        do you think you are elevated in your attempts to put others down ?

        SD:
        You sound just like my old headmaster…
        He was something of a preacher too…
        He thought he knew it all…
        And, of course, was absolutely humourless.
        Laughter was and remains the best weapon against this type.
        Because whatever they say – even if approximating the truth – their overwhelmingly righteous self-importance just cries out for a bloody good puncturing.
        Ahahahahahahahahahaaaah!

        • Lokesh says:

          Dhyanraj, you are just like the proverbial bull with a red rag. I can’t resist the occassional urge to wind you up, because you are such an obvious sucker for it. You just go for it time after time and it is tragi-comic to behold. I see you as one of those dummies that likes to dish it out and cries foul every time somebody gives you a taste of your own medicine. Sorry to say that you don’t come across as very bright with such a dumb-ass attitude. You appear to be delusional enough to actually believe that you are a representitive of modern-day sannyas. If that were in fact true it would definitely signal the death throes of a movement that was originally grounded in some of man’s highest aspirations. Go take your hahahahaha mantra and shove it up your yahoo, for it is only a fool who laughs at his own jokes or experiences the need to emphasize the fact that what he/she is writing is supposed to be funny by adding hahahahaha. Even my 8 year-old grandson knows that so where does that leave you, DR? The jokes on you, man.

          • satyadeva says:

            The reason why DR likes to write his haha etc. mantra is simply because it’s a habit of Swami R, so he thinks it makes him appear, er, ‘liberated’, er, ‘spiritually wise’ – you know, the would-be ‘Laughing Buddha’ syndrome.

            The funny thing is, he appears to be rather deficient in both wisdom and humour!

            Oh well, I guess one copycat deserves another.

      • frank says:

        DR.says
        “rajneesh has suffered many abuses including regular abuse from lokesh”

        when swami rajneesh first wrote on sn,he was extremely abusive to the other contributors who refused to swallow his own inflated representation of himself and told him honestly what they thought of his ludicrous osho-imitation guru trip..
        you can check the back pages.
        he didn’t like that,and he was ranting about how he would “chop peoples heads and dicks” ,he tried to make out he was not angry for being called out as a wally ,of course,but that he was a zen master acting compassionately to dispel delusion!

        delusionary spoilt-brat kind of stuff that
        maybe works when you are a posh indian brought up with servants, or a guru performing a method-acting osho role surrounded by a bunch of confused people much younger than him.
        but that kind of paddy-throwing just didn’t work with the contributors here, and the poor chap couldn’t take being answered back to and just continued to pretend that he was being a “master” in his twisted imagination . even desperately pretending that he was joking at one point when his “jokes” were totally unfunny..

        of course,you frame all this resistance as “people crucifying the enlightened ones”
        sounds more like
        inflated delusion
        followed by passive aggressive self pity.

        if you think that’s enlightenment.
        good luck to you,you`ll need it.

        and now hes trying to pull the
        “I know the secret truth about the black magic story.stick with me and all will be revealed” number

        just how retarded needy and unable to live,think and be for themselves do you suppose people to be to mistake this for “spiritual” or “enlightenment”?

        • Lokesh says:

          Yeah, I can dig it. It’s Rajneesh’s own fault if he is a delusional master-bator. It has nothing to do with me. I’m innocent, m’lawd.

        • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

          yes frank – i read those exchanges when rajneesh was commenting here before years ago with those fools of sannyas news regulars – was one of them you ? – it let me know rajneesh was still alive and shouting about it for those who could hear – and i went to meet him again after twenty years not knowing anything what had become of him since our last meeting outside buddha hall in 1989

          ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha – still sore after all these years frank? – did rajneesh hammer you ?
          ex sannyasins will never forget osho no matter how hard they try to belittle him into insignificance in their lives
          and it seems the old farts – “punters” here will never forget rajneesh either

          • satyadeva says:

            DR:
            and it seems the old farts – “punters” here will never forget rajneesh either
            SD:
            Delusions of grandeur playing up again, eh, DR?

            Don’t kid yourself, he barely gets a moment’s thought unless he’s dragged on here as an ‘issue’ by the likes of an irritable old missionary priest like yourself.

    • dominic says:

      As a renewable energy source if DR’s Enragenment could be wired up to the grid, he could be powering his own est therapy, in one endless convulsive loop with plenty to spare. Couple it with his mouth foam for some self-sufficient hydroponics and bingo, green instead of red missed energy. Who says he’s a waste of carbon? Hahaha etcerananda.

  8. shantam Prem says:

    Enlightenment means now a days that someone has the mind power to convince atleast few about his soul power!

  9. shantam Prem says:

    Parmartha says:
    A nephew of Osho told a contributor of SN that the actual date of Osho’s birth was 5th Jan, 1931.

    It shows simply one thing, never trust the people who claim to be close to Osho; Osho in the body or invisible Osho. Point

  10. shantam Prem says:

    I was contemplating what is the reason this shantam prem writes so much about Osho’s commune, whereas other high profile sannyasins simply mention it on the side lines, one of the reason can be, majority of such people came to Osho when life was already fucked up. Osho and his ashram entered in my life, when i was still a virgin!

    Even Master’s strokes simply get lost on the wall full of Graffiti!

  11. bodhi vartan says:

    Some 20 years ago there was some world religion conference and they tried to match the various rhetorics. In the western esoteric tradition the equivalent to ‘enlightenment’ would be the term ‘mystical attainment’, the acquisition of a mystical (as opposed to a religious or secular) viewpoint. Looking at the world and the self using different gestalt parameters …

    Much confusion arose because many felt that enlightenment contained a religious component. Is there such a thing as a religious experience? Is there a change in consciousness? Can it be transmitted?

    Many seekers who went to Osho were not clear with what they wanted. They thought they wanted enlightenment when in fact what they wanted was what Osho had, and you can’t buy (or sell) charisma.

    • Arpana says:

      A lot of us went to Osho because we just wanted to be more at ease in our lives, have better relationships, although we probably didn’t know then, that is what we wanted.

      • Parmartha says:

        Osho often said people came to him for all sorts of reasons, including the chance to simply meet the opposite sex, or those who were a bit more like them than they met in their professions, etc. BUT, he was frying other fish….

        • Arpana says:

          Maybe he was working on those of us who needed that, to make us aware of what it was we wanted and accept that, finish with it and move on. (I meant relationships in the widest sense as well.)

      • Lokesh says:

        For me it was a case of curiosity killing the cat and then I was hooked, lined and sinkered…jolly good fun, I might add, with plenty of scary bits thrown in for good measure.

  12. Parmartha says:

    It is clear that the word enlightenment, and the “non experience” that this word tries to convey was limited to the Ganges civilisations in history.
    As Vartan half alludes, mystical “union” was the vocabulary of Christian and Jewish mysticism, and “being constantly in love without any object” that of the Sufis. And I am sure the Shamens and other spiritual greats had their own vocabulary, etc.
    I myself prefer the later traditions because they feel less dogmatic and less “me, and the rest who are not like me”.
    The moot point remains as to whether in ANY tradition that union with God can be a “permanent” feature of human existence, or that enlightenment can be a state from which people do not return. Does this exist? If it does exist the assumption follows that it leads to infallability, simply because others, rightly or wrongly, consider one is actually “God” and how can God be wrong?!
    Such mistaken infallabilities are extremely dangerous in human affairs.

    • satyadeva says:

      Whatever might not be clear, there would seem to be a difference between ‘perfect’ consciousness (‘God’, if you like) and what is basically of the mind and of training and/or experience, ie a person’s ‘ordinary’ worldly dealings, including assessments of others and situations etc.

      So being ‘at one’ with God/Life/Love definitely doesn’t imply ‘infallibility’ in all other matters.

      And apparently, it also doesn’t imply that it would necessarily be 100% ‘wonderful’ to actually live in close proximity to such an individual. IE they’re probably as likely to get on your nerves as much – or more – as anyone else. Devotee-types would doubtless call that a ‘device’, but as someone here has recently said, it’s only life pursuing its inexorable course….

    • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

      looking for infallible gods seems rather old fashioned doesnt it?
      - osho went out of his way to make it clear to all that he was not infallible and was an ordinary man

      most people dont return from enlightenment – they die as a body mind at the time of enlightenment
      those who survive to return have to live with the same bodymind and invent ways to keep it going – if they have a purpose in staying around – for example to help transform the consciousness of people – if a buddha cant help then who can ?

      people may say – well we never wanted any transformation anyway all we wanted was a girlfriend or several girlfriends and a good party –
      and osho’s efforts to cook us and wake us up were the selfish unwanted interference of a madman in our lives -
      and who he thought he was bringing eastern concepts of enlightenment and enlightened master into western cultural tradition – oh how dangerous of him –
      oh osho was just a stupid conning us so he could get a better watch they may say

      ah well – we live in an ex sannyasin world these days here on sannyas news – those who could not go with the buddha all the way and retreated back to their “everyday life” so cosy and old identity so nice – where’s the party man ?

      • bodhi vartan says:

        swami satyam dhyanraj says:
        >> ah well – we live in an ex sannyasin world these days here on sannyas news

        Stop judging. You are making yourself look stupid. Probably on purpose. You should convert to Xtianity and martyr yourself.

      • Lokesh says:

        Dhyanraj declares, ‘osho went out of his way to make it clear to all that he was not infallible and was an ordinary man’. If that were in fact true it would be easy to describe in what forms Osho went out of his way to make himself appear ordnary. So come on, Dyanraj please cite a few examples of this.
        The truth would appear that there was little that was ordinary about Osho, even though he often declared that he was just an ordinary man. He had a wicked sense of humour. On the other hand, when I write things on SN describing situations where Osho appeared confused, warped or downright crazy, in other words utterly fallible, Dhyanraj and his cronies behave as if I am some kind of heretic who should be burned at the stake.
        Dhyanraj spouts baloney about enlightenment as if he were in a position to know, but as is glaringly obvious by some of his comments he does not actually have a clue. In general I see his attitude more akin to some Muslim fundamentalist, wishing to impose Sharia law and return us all to the stone age.
        I began this comment by asking Dhyanraj to give a few examples of how Osho illustrated his ordinartness. I doubt he will for a number of reasons. Apart from personal reasons, Osho himself is a big one. There was almost nothing ordinary about the man….authoring hundreds of books, delivering amazing spontaneous discourses, founding a global alternative society, the darling of the international gutter press, guru to the rich and famous, 99 rolls royces, banned from almost every country in the world….the list of the extraordinary is endless.
        So come on, Dhyanraj, tell us all about how ordinary Osho was. you being an authority on the subject, or are you just an empty barrel trying to make the most noise?

        • Preetam says:

          Pardon Lokesh for interfering, please explain the ordinary nappies?

          Two reason of a Master saying he is ordinary. That disciple does not idealize or declares the Master as infallible, and that the disciple has the same potential. People of Christian countries or other religions, have easy tendencies, idealizing what ever possible, a left over from Chris cross. Ask the other way round what would be for you ordinariness?

          • Lokesh says:

            Ordinary used as an adjective, which I believe to be the case here, implies with no special or distinctive features; normal. Doesn’t quite sum up Osho now does it?

            • Preetam says:

              Osho poverty alleviation program, against any kind of small thinking or poorness. Provoking a bit that fu….. Structure and managed provoking them.

              What is happening perhaps in Britain today? Till 2015 more than 500.000 people will need food parcels to survive. Have a look at the data around food banks, a result of humble and ordinary people with lots of civic duty. On the other hand the Taxpayer as Fresch pay per year 57 Million $ on the royal family.

              What is Ordinary, who would listen if not put oneself into the right light? Even a napkin user is far beyond ordinary, putting him in a special light.

            • Preetam says:

              Yes, I have found, common, simple, service, methodic, decent and more at the most according Ordinary he is extra Ordinary, perhaps AAA?

              Is your definition a little screwed, or I turned it up side down?

              • Lokesh says:

                Ehm…I ‘ll have to lie down and think about.
                Notice DR has nothing to say on the matter…ehm..er…bit of a windbag that chap.

                • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

                  well lokesh – ordinary is eating drinking sleeping and going to the toilet being born and dying like any other ordinary human being – of course he was an extraordinary individual – if you look at his acts as you outline – and even if he had remained silent and not bothered with others as he did he would still be an extraordinary consciousness – just you would never have heard of him

        • dominic says:

          SS Dhyanraj, ‘whatever floats his U-boat’, is more akin to muslim brotherhood than white robe. In another life he would be torturing and killing others for their imagined heresies and self-righteously enjoying it.
          One has to guard against this unquestioning mindset throughout history or humanity cannot evolve. Which is clearly the case in the middle east.
          The search is for truth and intelligence, even if it gets uncomfortable and debunks your cherished illusions.
          The trap of Osho was not the words, ‘I’m an ordinary man’, but more the body language and the machinery of, ‘look how special I am’.
          And so it was a huge relief and attraction for many sanyassins when they went to papaji, ramana et al, and a lot of the barriers and hype got reduced and stripped away again. But that’s another story.

          • Lokesh says:

            Dhyanraj, when Dominic says, ‘ it was a huge relief and attraction for many sanyassins when they went to papaji, ramana et al, and a lot of the barriers and hype got reduced and stripped away again.’, he does not sound in the least idiotic but rather he sounds like a man making a relevant point.
            Meanwhile we have you speaking about, lets see, ah yes, Osho the ‘special’, ‘extraordinary’, ‘ordinary’ man. Ehm, Dhyanraj, ever heard of a rock band called Talking Heads? The once cut an album called stop making sense.

    • bodhi vartan says:

      Parmartha says:
      >> The moot point remains as to whether in ANY tradition that union with God can be a “permanent” feature of human existence, or that enlightenment can be a state from which people do not return. Does this exist? If it does exist the assumption follows that it leads to infallability,

      God is a strange word to work with. Existence is easier. Union with existence means there are no more questions, but there are answers (when answers are required). And that is where the problem arises. As time passes existence creates new questions, for which the old Union has no answers.

      • satyadeva says:

        ” As time passes existence creates new questions, for which the old Union has no answers.”

        Evidence, please, for this?

        • bodhi vartan says:

          satyadeva says:
          >> Evidence, please, for this?

          http://andrewcohen.org/blog/apology

          That’s your evidence but when I was talking, I was talking about myself. Not that have anything to apologise about but I know when the world has moved on.

          • satyadeva says:

            Well, I’ve never rated Andrew Cohen myself so this doesn’t necessarily surprise me. He always appeared as a rather typically ‘ambitious Jewish boy’ to me, who, energetically speaking, left me ‘cold’, uninspired.

            And how can what you said be about yourself – unless you yourself have already ‘died’ as it were?!

            Also, I trust that by ‘Existence’ you include non-Existence as well, ie what doesn’t depend upon physical form? Aka ‘Life’ (with a capital L).

            If Life (with a capital L) has created All, then how can ‘union with Life’ ever be ‘outdated’ by changing conditions at its periphery?

            Are you truly a Great Croupier in the Grand Casino of Life (with a capital L), or are you just another punter (who may or may not have ‘had his chips’)?

            • bodhi vartan says:

              satyadeva says:
              >> Are you truly a Great Croupier in the Grand Casino of Life (with a capital L), or are you just another punter (who may or may not have ‘had his chips’)?

              Too esoteric for me. Place your bets, if you have any money left. If not, wanna sell a kidney?

              • satyadeva says:

                Hardly “too esoteric” for you, surely, bearing in mind your original post?

                Besides, essentially my point is in my penultimate paragraph.

                • bodhi vartan says:

                  satyadeva says:
                  >> Besides, essentially my point is in my penultimate paragraph.

                  Life with capital L doesn’t make sense to me. In greek, life is zoe. The zo part comes from zoon (zo-on). The on is from onton which means being. So zoe is an environment which contain beings of zo-on. Zo-ons are simple but through complex interaction with each other they might appear willful but the superficial intelligence is an ‘apparent’ byproduct of the complexity.

                  Clever ppl are worse gamblers than stupid ppl because clever ppl think they should be able to figure out what cannot be figured out.

                • satyadeva says:

                  You don’t understand this sentence?

                  “If Life (with a capital L) has created All, then how can ‘union with Life’ ever be ‘outdated’ by changing conditions at its periphery?”

                  What do you understand then, by “union with Existence” (your phrase)?

                  (Or were you being too “clever” for even yourself?).

    • Preetam says:

      I would say the Hindus call it Kamaloka – House of Love.

      The Atharva Veda describes “Love” as a primordial power. How it can be otherwise than permanent, even Existence contracted its vein? Comprehensible that embodied “It” the Avatar is vulnerable and not infallible or absolute, yet it is “whole”.

  13. shantam prem says:

    Once I read some manufacturer mentioning something like, ” It is only 5 per cent which is toothpaste, rest is all water and marketing.”
    More or less, similar is the case with the enlightened people who are always on the hunting trip for the disciples.
    and why not, they provide all in one service of being father, psychologist, priest, sooth sayer and yes friend too.

  14. shantam prem says:

    If apple Inc. ships me an I pad free of cost, I won´t mind to accept, “Steve Jobs was an enlightened and is working for the research, development and marketing of apple products from every where.”

    Somehow it is a childish game full of fantasy to go on thinking, who is enlightened and who is not, as if it is going to add some value to the life.

    • dominic says:

      “If existence makes me enlightened, if apple sends me an iPad…”
      You’re certainly stretching the laws of manifestation to breaking point there shants.
      Just act as if you’re enlightened and you’re crotch is a touch-sensitive device. Seems to work for you know who…

  15. shantam prem says:

    “Osho has awful tastes in watches.”
    Lokesh
    “Osho has awful taste in cars.”
    Lokesh

    When you chose a master born and raised in small central Indian village, it also shows awful lack of spiritual masters back home in Scotland, Sweden or Switzerland.

  16. shantam prem says:

    ” As time passes existence creates new questions, for which the old Union has no answers.”

    Once there was a school master, who was teaching 2 plus 2 are 4, 3 plus 3 are 6.
    Existence changed the questions. It was asking what is 2.2 plus 3.2?
    So the search went. Someone came to tell it is 5.5
    In between dependency over the others was killing the self esteem. Finally, a new brand of teacher came. He said, he won´t teach basic maths but how to operate calculator.
    People were standing in line to have the private audience. Finally, master of the masters has given the ultimate tool in the hands..
    Unfortunately, nature did not stop to be creative.
    question was, what is
    a plus b squared!

  17. shantam prem says:

    “Sannyasins, once a flourishing sect around an Indian guru famous for his Rolls Royces were the deserted children of second world war generation. Mothers were busy working at cash counters of super stores and purchasing cheap milk powder, therefore these children did not get enough love and warmth from the mothers
    fathers were uneducated dumbs, who used to extend their happy hours till late evenings, therefore these children started reading esoteric books and finally came in trap of a clever Indian man who promised them Nirvana if you enrol into two expansive groups.”
    Dr. Oedipus Pyane.

    PS- Seems like dominic is some Royal from Saudi Arabia living in Hyde Park 1.

  18. shantam prem says:

    Wife finally drags her husband to doctor. Seems like he has got some serious problem down there.
    Doctor wants to check up. Husband opens his mouth with the expectation of thermometer!

    I am thinking whether husband was initiated into sannyas 30, 35 years ago?

  19. shantam prem says:

    “Swami ji, would you describe some experience about Sannyas?”
    “yes, there are many”, swami ji similingly said while scratching surf white beard.
    ” But something, which is very lovely to your memories”, new disciple from the facebook asked.
    “Well..it was in 1979. I spoke with her first time after Dynamic. Subsequently we got married, though we could not stay life long yet she is the most remarkable experience of my sannyas life.”, swami ji answered.

  20. anand yogi says:

    Don’t listen to these these sick ex-sannyasins and master-haters,Dhyanraj.
    Keep up the good work.

    I would like to share an idea for Rajneesh`s next book title.

    “Enlightenment.The Final Solution”

    What do you think?

  21. Fresch says:

    I just read interesting article about research about brain and meditation. They found out that one of the places meditation affects the most is insula. In insula there is also feeling of empathy, if it’s damaged a person cannot relate to other people’s feelings. Also when insula’s activity ceases (but empathy rises), person looses the desire to posses (if i read it correct). So that must be the reason when you start meditate you do not care about the money at all. That is also very good reason for religions to make money best possible way; charity (and groups also sell best for new comers). I suspect if you continue and your consciousness increases, you are more grounded and you do not have to for example walk bare foot on the streets begging your food.I would really be interested in understanding Gyrification or cortical folding because that is the other big thing happening. But I think it’s some kind of general expansion and thickening of the brain..These days they show a lot of positive impact about meditations, but I am sure there is a lot of shadow to it too. At least when your actions and brain are in dysfunction. Also these studies do not focus on meditation AND emotions.

  22. Fresch says:

    so SD perhaps if you if you continue meditation and your consciousness increases, you will get more grounded..

    • satyadeva says:

      Hello Fresch, thanks for the tip.
      I’ve only been meditating, in one form and another, since January 1969, ie for the last 44 and a half years, so I guess I’d better just carry on and see what happens, eh?

  23. Fresch says:

    SD,
    For me it works to stay grounded is just to do ordinary work in the world also.
    Osho meditations are very intense.

    To stay grounded and “in the middle” osho insisted people go back and make their own money. Also perhaps for the same reason it’s good to ask money from meditations (reasonable amount), so that all participants have been grounded enough to earn the money to participate (even the 5,- or meditations or just anything, also for the mystic rose). I have noticed that most people who’s parents, partner or somebody else pays for the his/her groups are always really not supposed to be there…so please do not do these “free” groups any more. you are not doing a favour to these people. it’s an other thing to give osho books for free, that i can understand, even i am not really sure about that eather..

    And few more things. Hysterical behavior; hysterical laughing or not being able to stop it (laughing on the streets etc) is not meditation.. It’s either acting out or not being balanced. Please do not courage people for that kind of behavior.

    Why do you SD not enjoy your shop for a while, just doing ordinary things for a change and meeting ordinary people in a balanced way.

  24. Fresch says:

    Satyadeva, I am sorry, you are right; I got confused with the names. Of course I am worried about swami satyam dhyanraj not you. I make a lot of mistakes with names, never with faces because I use heavily my right side of the brain. In addition I am also in the position to ground my self, it’s true..even I do not act out on the streets or support other people do so.

    Satyadeva, can you do the science the favour and go scan your brain?

  25. Fresch says:

    And with my only 22 years of meditation, of course I am a toddler like kavita put it..however you do not know from where I started.so.

  26. Fresch says:

    One friend (of 20 years of intense meditation experience) just came out of the group where there was a “leader” who took sanyas only 7 years (or so) ago. She really loved his way of leading the group even she normally likes “the star leaders”, especially she was surprised he was sharing the same way like every body else about what was going on in his, good and bad (!) life, not giving paticipants advice or try to solve their life, but simply instructions. I suspect its end of an era of the gurus (or guru therapists). It’s just so old to be above other, even to make money. That is simply boring.

  27. Fresch says:

    Yes, DR, i would like to hear what you share. Do you share personal experience.. And with a woman?

    • satyadeva says:

      Gist of any answer (either literal or implied) bound to be along the lines of:

      “I am a so-called ‘ordinary’ person – but I’m doing very important, out-of-the-ordinary work. I am a very important part of the whole future of world spirituality. The future of the Earth depends upon the success or failure of what I’m doing. I know who Osho is and what he wanted. . You don’t. I love Osho. You don’t. I have a right to be very righteously angry with you lot. You are totally misguided if you think there’s anything laughable about me. I am right. You are wrong. (Etc.).

    • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

      yes love – from your comments addressed to SD i gather you imagine i need more grounding, minding the shop, meditation and chats with ordinary people
      the shop i closed years ago and retired from business – as far as grounding goes yesterday i spent the day rescuing plants from the jungle we are clearing for the ashram which involved getting my hands into the earth and planting them all in pots
      today on the land i was building a split log floor for our mosquito netted rest area which is pretty heavy work for a 62 year old in this heat – as you can see i am very in touch with the ground these days
      - a meditative space is just normal and nothing special to do to be here
      oh and as far as meeting people and chatting goes i meet plenty dont worry i just got back from pizza dinner with a beautiful mexican girl and we chatted ordinary things

      you assume many things about me and make silly recomendations how i should live my life but the truth is you have no idea who i am or how i live or what i do and neither is it any of your business is it?- i also dont know you and why should i tell you how to live ?

      - i have been winding up these fools here because they are clever guys who like to disrespect osho and rajneesh and thats not clever its idiotic

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