Parmartha reflects: When I was first in Poona in 1974 there was always the whisper of Osho’s occult powers. But frankly, I never looked for them, and never thought that was Osho’s “way”. I found him fastidious the other way. Okay Jesus raised people from the dead, etc, but that was for an audience over 2,000 years ago. And in India which sometimes seems a 1000 years behind, still many “believe” in Occult powers, just look at all those who used to go to Satya Sai Baba – but all that stuff about the ash seemed like a magic trick for children to me… ..
I am glad that Osho never indulged disciples with the wonderment of Occult Powers. Full maturity of any kind never walks on water. Below is a parable of Ramakrishna from 1884 – but it still seems to ring true for me today, 140 years later…
“Once upon a time a sadhu acquired great occult powers. He was vain about them. . One day the Lord, disguised as a holy man, came to him and said, ‘Revered sir, I have heard that you have great occult powers.’ The sadhu received the Lord cordially and offered him a seat. Just then an elephant passed by. The Lord, in the disguise of the holy man, said to the sadhu, ‘Revered sir, can you kill this elephant if you like?’
The sadhu said, ‘Yes, it is possible.’ So saying, he took a pinch of dust, muttered some mantras over it, and threw it at the elephant. The beast struggled awhile in pain and then dropped dead. The Lord said: ‘What power you have! You have killed the elephant!’ The sadhu laughed. Again the Lord spoke: ‘Now can you revive the elephant?’ ‘That too is possible’, replied the sadhu. He threw another pinch of charmed dust at the beast. The elephant writhed about a litle and came back to life.
Then the Lord said: ‘Wonderful is your power. But may I ask you one thing? You have killed the elephant and you have revived it. But what has that done for you? Has it enabled you to realize God?’ Saying this the Lord vanished. “Subtle are the ways of dharma. One cannot realize God if one has even the least trace of desire.
It is not just in India people believe in occult powers, it is almost every where though in a more subtle form.
What is Reiki? What is Aura Soma?
Channeling is a big market.
In India it is still a one of the best business option.
Please check, Shri Shri Radhe Ma, in google images.
This gorgeous woman is a rag to riches story.
As far as Osho is concerned, He has given the cleanest possible religion.
Ups.. no religion but religiousness, a way of life. No, not way of life, just finger pointing to the moon!
‘I have pain here,’ said the man prodding his knee. ‘And here, and here,’ he continued, prodding his left shoulder and chest.
‘Ah, ‘ said the doctor knowingly. ‘I know what you have…a broken finger.’
shantam prem says:
>> Please check, Shri Shri Radhe Ma, in google images.
I did. Congrats. Even better than Martyn’s psychobitch … where do I sign on?
Is this the elephant..?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_in_the_room
^^ Fans of cognitive dissonance will tell you that this is why people forced to defend a particular position – say because it is their job – are likely to end up believing it. It can also suggest a reason for why military services, high school sports teams and college societies have bizarre and punishing initiation rituals. If you’ve been through the ritual, dissonance theory predicts, you’re much more likely to believe the group is a valuable one to be a part of (the initiation hurt, and you’re not a fool, so it must have been worth it right?) –^^ (see bbc page for more)
Some of Osho’s early books even pomoted magic occultism which became refined into simple cultism as the years went by. Did you ever read Osho on putting a floating cork with a needle into a glass of water and oil to see how to convince the needle to move round with mind focusing? How St Thomas was buried in Goa and his body had not disintegrated for 2000 years because of yoga breathing embalming him into death, only disintegrating with the coming of the end of the world, as in the 20th century.. (O said it had started to fragment.. although does anyone actually know where Thomas is to this day, as his bones are in Ortona cathedral ?? ).And testing the power of….Staring at someone’s back in a crowd and waiting for them to turn round, re: the power of the eyes and consciousness.? I think some of that stuff was rehashed from theosophy books, and unverified unless someone knows the source of these things which I recall.
Further…
We all were led to unquestioningly ‘believe’ that building a new commune in Oregon led by a revolutionary earth moving hierarchy fresh from booting out the old guard of Teertha, Michael Barnett, and Shiva meant that we could trust Sheela’s occult powers of fighting fascism, without her or us becoming one. That the people of goodness and their time had come to pass, en masse.We had the embodiment of love and the search for consciousness plus group cohesion through merriment on our side. Trust was the new occult power. This trust abuse was part and parcel of why Amrito got a needle up his bum.
Now he and many of us drew our own conclusions , but to this day collective identification remains a major issue amongst sannyassins because we promote group manifestations of our validity. It’s a social skill we as humans thrive on. We can even justify it.Is even pleasurable and rewarding.Sometimes it even reminds me of a religion.
But unfortunately despite best efforts, we haven’t fully modelled how to include the dark side into the duality of experience via collective intentional living. In the nature of a neutral universe there is no unfound, waiting to be discovered, preferential paradise. Even if we made one , we could be run over by an approaching bus, which we hadn’t seen. The universe is like that. Full of surprises which refute positioning. So the magic trick is to finally seek out someone who isn’t here , and ask for some tips. Because to be solely identified with the magic miracle of this manifestation is attachment to the world, not the origin of it. We then listen to this happily reminding us that consciousness IS , whilst hitting ones thumb with a hammer, isn’t (unless this awareness or transfiguring hammer on rock moment occurs). And being human this pleases us to hear and be carried away with in the hope, feeling, desire,presence that yes we too understand that, and are approaching the train now standing on platform 1, and it is approaching us too, inexorably.
In the face of obliteration anything goes right ? And LSD proved to those rooted in the world that even the world has glimpses to offer, with a smile. And love will show the way. Because even in adversity things have a redemptive habit of evening out. Like a sufi said once.. ‘what disappears from one window comes in through another’… so why try and force things ? That’s magic Baba. The magic of repose in equanimity whilst being fully engaged. Now throw the dice and test it out, whilst here and getting on board that train.
For further reading the Chasm of Fire by Irene Tweedie sorts out ritual, magic, testing, belief and consciousness.. if you can plough through it. Only ever went to one of her gatherings. Did anyone else ?
ttfn
I agree that in the early days, especially when he was talking to Hindu audiences, Osho was frequently playing the occult card. I can go as far as to say that even today some Indians are promoting the occult angle in reference to Osho. I was watching something on You Tube and they were talking about advice, that Osho gave to somebody, and it cured them …
Occult means secret. Many of the techniques practiced in Oshoism could be described as occult if you don’t know what they do. They would be a secret to you.
I only practise what he preaches… it’s an age old formula requiring much hard work. On the other hand if I try to practise what I preach, it results in severely reduced blogging, which is a civil offence in the webosphere, although possibly welcomed by others who wished I would preach what they would like to practise, leading to the preaching of who-the hell-knows-what, practices.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Thomas
http://www.tjresearch.info/legends.htm#II
prem martyn, if you are into this kinda stuff, she rocks. I have all three of her books:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Thiering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_the_Man_(book)
ta ,BV ..i did most of my reading on those things years ago—-my very first gnostic book was the nag hammadi texts by Elaine Pagels..
Thiering has it and so has Tim Freke, and others…
i’m only passing on the info, don’t do any thing else with it these days… i blame it all on my youthful acid trips ….
prem martyn says:
>> i’m only passing on the info, don’t do any thing else with it these days… i blame it all on my youthful acid trips ….
It’s all good stuff. You just never know when you might need it. I have a very nice Eritrean friend (Orthodox Copt) and occasionally we chat about such matters. Now she is watching “Meetings with remarkable men” and it wasn’t even me that suggested it. For ten years I used Abraxas as my online moniker. We can wear many many hats.
pm, you’ve just send me on a tailspin. I was just checking Elaine Pagels on Wikipedia and it jumped to here:
Buddhism and Gnosticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Gnosticism
On the Gnostic way = from Gnosis, to Logos, to Praxis … I can see the ‘Praxis’ element matching to the (Buddhist) Taoist ‘Practice’ path (of Zen) as a method to enlightenment, instead of just sitting there and doing nothing. It is the practical side of Zen the interests me the most. Let’s call it ‘Zen Praxis’ … hehe
http://www.friesian.com/images/zen-4.gif
http://www.friesian.com/divebomb.htm
she could go off to meet Amiyo and Chetan then.. who do original dances from the movie and more as told to Amiyo,from the movie’s dance advisor the gurdjieffs fontainbleau dance school doyenne.. (forget her name )..I’m not a fan of disciplined moves and don’t know what any of it’s about, though one day I hope to meet Amiyo again…and I did my stuff with Zahira who now lives in New Zealand.
Did I ever mention the time I was in Istanbul…..
prem martyn says:
>> Did I ever mention the time I was in Istanbul…..
Was that in 1453?
It is interesting you have brought this up. Recently, for entertainment I was watching a Russian programme “Battle of Healers” (probably not the best translation) where people on national television show off their spiritual/abnormal/healing etc powers. I have to admit some of it is pure rubbish but some makes you wonder. And in the last series Veet Mano from Pune was participating (http://veetmanoprograms.com/). At first I had a judgemental attitude but then I could see he can genuinely help by seeing what “normal” people cannot see (what is the pain inside, the cause, how to help etc.) so he said in that programme that through meditation his abilities grew.
I am also glad that Osho never indulged disciples with the wonderment of Occult Powers. Ultimately it is a waste of energy in my opinion, a deviation from meditation. Although if it is helpful, who am I to judge-mind my own business..
Answering one’s own questions, calls upon creativity….
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/582153_601999229829539_1255057927_n.jpg
“We are critical only of religions that perform no miracles.”
A Mahikari teacher
BELOVED MASTER,
AM I WASTING ENERGY BY LOOKING TO OCCULTISM AS A WAY TO EXPLORE INNER SPACE?
Mark, occultism is for stupid people. God is not hidden; God is very much manifested. He is all over the place: singing in the birds, flowering in the flowers. He is green in the trees, red in the roses. He is breathing in you. He is talking through me and listening through you right this very moment. But you don’t want to see the obvious.
Man has a very pathological interest in the occult. Occult means that which is hidden. Man wants to be interested in the hidden — and there is nothing hidden! As far as God is concerned nothing is hidden. Just open your eyes and he is standing before you. Be silent and you will hear the still, small voice within yourself. Why go into occultism to explore inner space?
Why not go directly into inner space? Occultism isso much nonsense, and there is no end to it because it is all invention. It is religious fiction. Just as there is science fiction, occultism is religious fiction. If you love fictions, it is perfectly okay. But then don’t think that by reading science fiction you are studying science. And don’t believe in science fiction, and don’t act out of that belief; otherwise you will end up in a madhouse.
Occultism is exactly like science fiction. People love fiction; there is nothing wrong in it, but you should know that it is fiction. Enjoy, but don’t take it seriously.
Osho.
The Dhammapada: The Way of the Buddha, Vol 10
Chapter #8
Chapter title: Not gospels but gossips
Towards the end of 1989 as I recall, an incident occurred which I might have connected to occult matters, although have never been drawn to such things and so didn’t.
Had become really agitated about Sannyas is the best way to put this, and I didn’t know why, as nothing had occurred that immediately seemed to have caused the state I was in. Hadn’t read anything, had contact with anyone who was connected to Sannyas.
Doorbell rang one afternoon and the caller was a Swami friend, who was up on a visit, and he took one look at me and said you haven’t heard have you, and then went on to tell me Nirvano had committed suicide.
My feelings of agitation fell away instantly, and doesn’t seem unreasonable; even now, to consider that I must have picked up the collective paranoia about the incident, despite no direct contact with anyone who had heard about what happened; and I’ve had other experiences, that have no rational explanation, but nothing else quite like that.
Such things certainly happen, Arpana, to all kinds of people, not just ones in a large spiritual community. But they’re not what I understand by the word ‘occult’, which to me has connotations of ‘magic’ rather than this sort of relatively common, spontaneous psychic phenomenon.
For me, a preoccupation with the occult represents just another escape from the humdrum everyday to the more obviously ‘entertaining’, seductively ‘glamorous’. As such, often probably another sort of addiction for many adherents.
Yes.
Such things are not uncommon, but certainly in the early days seemed to have a magical quality, but I’ve a feeling I might be using the word as a lighter rather than darker phenomenon than you.
(Spontaneous psychic phenomenon. Yes good phrase. Big difference between that and occult. )
Hundreds of people have gone through “occult” experiences inside the premises of the Osho Ashram. I mean all these transcontinental love affairs and most of them have this feeling, ” We know each other from the past life.”
What is occult?
here is the head paragrph from wikki.
The occult (from the Latin word occultus “clandestine, hidden, secret”) is “knowledge of the hidden”.[1] In common English usage, occult refers to “knowledge of the paranormal”, as opposed to “knowledge of the measurable”,[2][3] usually referred to as science. The term is sometimes taken to mean knowledge that “is meant only for certain people” or that “must be kept hidden”, but for most practicing occultists it is simply the study of a deeper spiritual reality that extends beyond pure reason and the physical sciences.[4] The terms esoteric and arcane have very similar meanings, and the three terms are interchangeable
MAy be it is Numerology or Astrology, Three women who came very close to Osho share the same date of birth…19th March 1949.
Neelam, Sheela and Vivek..
Call it another coincidence..one man Jayesh has seen them all going away from the main stage. Sheela´s downfall and Jayesh´s enterance into the personal circle of Osho is in the same year. Veevak´s mysterious death and then disgraceful banning of Neelam from the main ashram…
Is it not a victory of Alpha male, the Aquarious male?
Occult actually means ‘not apprehended by the mind, beyond the range of understanding’. Which means to me that Osho was very much involved with the occult. Take Sheela as a prime example. Why did Osho put her in charge of the ranch. Surely such a question moves us into a realm whch could quite justifiyably be termed ‘beyond the range of understanding’.
I think it is not quite true that Osho never used occult powers. In Krishna Prem’s ‘Osho, India and Me’ there is a description of a ‘psychic visit’ by Osho to Krishna Prem and his friends. If I recall correctly they had asked Laxmi to ask Osho for the visit, and He obliged. It sounds like it was a bit more than just imagining that He visited. There is a similar story in Devika’s “Love Song for Osho.’
I get the impression that Osho will often raise certain subjects just to get the attention of a ‘type’, if you will, and then having got that attention says what comes next, and that any suggestion of magical powers, occult powers is just bait.
(He does the same with book titles. Calling them books about Zen or Tao is just a hook. )
Lokesh says:
>> … Why did Osho put her in charge of the ranch. Surely such a question moves us into a realm whch could quite justifiyably be termed ‘beyond the range of understanding’.
Good one Lokesh but no cigar. Beyond logic does not mean beyond the laws of physics which is what is implied in the title by ‘occult powers’. If Sheela was successful … now ‘that’ would have been occult.
http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/graphique-en-df09c246c1331753e12a5f5292bbb5f9.html
Osho actually did have occult powers and from time to time he used them and did in fact talk about it.
Loading up on chappatis after astral travels was one episode and it happened that I had a couple of close encounters first hand when the old boy was out for a midnight float. I also have credble witnesses to back me up. Osho was also pretty good at reading minds.
During some powerful psychedelic sessions I experimented with mind reading and sending thoughts etc. I reached a stage of being able to send thoughts to another person and they would act upon them and vice versa. Hearing others thoughts is a bit like tuning into a radio broadcast. I witnessed Osho reading others thoughts on quite a number of occassions. Today such things appear a bit mundane. I’d rather read the local newspaper and check out the page three girlie over a cigarette and cafe con leche. Osho used to describe siddhis as being like cufflinks to a real master. How many masters wear cufflinks?
Osho seemed to run out of psychic powers for a time and then called in a PR expert to give advice on how to attract more potential disciples. Perhaps this goes to illustrate that having and using occult powers can be cost effective.
Right then, I’m off t gaze into my crystal ball in search of next week’s euromillions winning numbers.
I suppose what I was driving at is about using “miracles” to impress, or make people feel that the state the teacher is in, is totally different from one’s own…. for example the whole story of Jesus rings true to me “EXCEPT” for the miracles and the resurrection.
Maybe people like Gurdjieff (who it was reputed could kill a sheep at 150 yards just by looking in the poor creature’s direction!) just are not my type!
Let’s say even if one allows for the possibility of such powers ( a big question mark to someone like me) then the public exercise of such powers is a disrespectful nonsense.
Parmartha if you read the jesus miracles as literate, you may well get exoteric information without esoteric insight….
it may well be that lazarus, maybe, was in a catatonic state from some wacky exercises he’d been doing, or that virgin births were metaphors for tantric sex events that were emptied of carnality and filled with meditativeness.. there’s loads of this stuff to get your head round in tim freke’s jesus researches .. but why bother…
personally i am a fan osho because of his taste in hats.
Do you worry that someone with siddhis can pull one over on you, or go to places that liberate the soul, and then be smug about it, like everything else humans do ? The arshram was filled with those with airs and graces real or pretend. Tell you what though, kow-towing to even considering that stuff as valid in anyone let alone your loving guru gives away your own self respecting siddhi quicker than you can say abracadabra or voodoo.
My gf thinks its a miracle someone like me can talk at length from both orifices….
If you want to get ahead, get a hat. I always dug Osho’s throwaway line, ‘Be realistic, plan for a miracle.
Parmartha says:
>> the whole story of Jesus rings true to me “EXCEPT” for the miracles and the resurrection.
The ‘Jesus personae’ was a Roman construct …
Caesar’s Messiah, The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
Let’s put it this way, miracles are bollox. One thing definite about the physical medium is its stability, and the only element that is unstable is the human mind, and that is where miracles happen. Delusion is necessary. People need religion. Without the possibility of a miracle most cannot see a way out of their problems. Osho was right to allow miracles into the mix.
To my eyes Osho was much more of a philosopher than a magician but he was a magician too. I saw many things around him that I couldn’t explain but I have to accept. One of those was/is my (and other’s) response to him.
Parmartha , what i gather is if Osho had siddhis (acc to wiki : may be any unusual skill or faculty or capability ) then he didnt want to waste his siddhis on the ‘ miracle ‘ bit , probably wanted to explore / highlight the meditation bit .
martyn , i watched that Sugata Mitra video the other day and i felt just like Sugata wants every child to have a computer , Osho wanted all to have meditation .
Kavita says:
>> he didnt want to waste his siddhis on the ‘ miracle ‘ bit , probably wanted to explore / highlight the meditation bit .
To start with, Osho was an opportunist looking for a crowd, to step in front of. Once he found a crowd then he would adjust himself to that particular crowd. “That last particular crowd” happened to be westerners who preferred fiction to fantasy … and that is what they got. Innit?
BV , well guess there are more angles than one .
in fact many of the indians / westerns i have met personally are /were not the fantasy/ fiction mongers , probably just newness mongers .
yes Kavita .. meditative-ness… although as I don’t like the word i’d prefer something else as a common word for use… it reminds me too much of sitting like a buddhist statue….
and one word can’t dominate our literature or exchanges, that would be nuts, as if we all go ‘oh yes i know exactly what you mean’….literally we don’t…and nor should we take it with a spoon.
its up to us how fresh that stays…..
martyn , yes it is upto us , i guess freshness is very fragile so we need to keep on looking for fresh freshness .
prem martyn says:
>> meditative-ness… although as I don’t like the word i’d prefer something else as a common word for use… it reminds me too much of sitting like a buddhist statue…
How about: Entering into consideration, or to militate?
BV …spookily enough I use exactly those terms when absorbed in the constancy of change in ongoing fluidity..
or
….having a shower….
won’t be a minute luv, i’m having a quick militate.
prem martyn says:
I use exactly those terms when absorbed in the constancy of change in ongoing fluidity..
or
….having a shower….
What, no singing? (shocked)
Parmartha, have you thought about the fact, between us and Jesus there are two thousand years of myth. OSho belongs to our time. Just in 23 years after His death, myth machine is working full time.
Just look at the punch line, “Never born never died, Only visited this planet earth”, is this not the last push to create occult and mystery…
Should UN pass a resolution to aknowledge Osho as first and the only one, never born never died..
Point is hundred kinds of spins will take place, but with a difference, vast world will simply ignore him and his followers; sorry he has no followers!
Shantam Prem says:
>> “Never born never died, Only visited this planet earth”
‘Osho’ was a discarnate spirit that entered Chandra Mohan Jain and done its deed …
Very suspect that, Vartan. Since when has ‘the Truth’ (or whatever you want to call it) been a separate entity, residing in some mysterious realm outside us?
Perhaps it’s time to stop attending those spiritualist meetings…?
its the Greek orthodox Osho, ‘possessed by demons version’ , cleaned up for use… still The Exorcist Osho Meditation and Kebab Centre could work…..
Agananaaayya abubble sqauawk noggy woooo wooo ectoplasm.. nearghhh…
You want chilli sauce ?..eh ees £4.99 . Have a nice occult day.
Never born and never died isn’t exactly an original line.
I have been thinking lately about spiritual experiences, miracles , whatever we name it and then I heard an Osho discourse explaining this topic in quite a detail. Basically the message I hear from Osho is that all experiences in meditation are illusions/hallucinations etc and they are the real obstacles to mediators and in particular those who are close to zen, approach meditation through the mind. However he said (still implying is it all imagination) there are those approaching meditation through the heart-to those people seeing your master in the sky and angels for instance will be very helpful.
Vartan says “Delusion is necessary. People need religion. Without the possibility of a miracle most cannot see a way out of their problems. Osho was right to allow miracles into the mix.” – where I come from religion was an opium, and it is so right? I tend to agree with it.
It is also interesting to note what we classify as miracles. Some sannnyains are in physical, mental and spiritual connection with Osho and other masters, beings etc. and they talk about it like we talk about facts in the newspapers. For example in the programme I mentioned earlier Veet Mano could look at the reverse side of the picture of a number of people and tell their gender,age, alive or dead, how they died and so on. Some of the Russian magicians would have a dialog with the dead ones and give such details that would shock everyone. It happened to me personally elsewhere.
Other sannaysins/people having not experienced anything, ether from jealousy or from the simple fact they have not seen anything absolutely deny anything extraordinary.
To me personally meditation + Osho are part of the miracle world. Rest is proper boring, innit?
chetna:
Some sannnyasins are in physical, mental and spiritual connection with Osho and other masters, beings etc.
SD:
Physical connection with a dead person or discarnate “being”? Come on, Chetna, let the self-deluded say and believe what they want, but you’re surely not stupid enough to accept that, are you?!
I’m not denying there are people gifted with extraordinary insight, nor that a spiritual connection is very much possible, but to claim a live mental connection with a dead Master is surely further delusion.
Never Born Never died
Visited the planet earth
between such and such date..
If osho has dictated these words, it is sure, man wanted to be in the league of Massiahs, this is utter crap to think then, he wanted to be forgotten.
Surely analyticallly devloped brains find it tricky to propagte this occult truth of never born never died.
Question is why J Krishnamurti did not leave such mysterious sentence behind, neither Punja ji..
Basically i find it utterly hilarious in Sannyas circles, when some one dies, it has become a trend to say, ” He left the body”; as if there is some element of choice
No..i will prefer a simple death..
I always thought the leaving the body thing was pretty twee. Nonetheless, it is a reminder that who we really are is beyond the body. Easily said, but not easily lived. Facebook is full of such and such left the body type comments for sanyasins who have died. Fly on etc. Truth is most go into an unconscious swoon when death comes a knocking and don’t know anything about it. Next thing they know they are sucking on a nipple.
Always loved Ramana’s words not long before he died when his disciples were freaking out about him splitting the scene. ‘Where am I going to go? I am here.’
I reckon the Tibetan Book of the Dead is a good way to go. I think it is better if you delve into who it is that is going to die before you die. I reckon I’m nobody special.
SatyaDeva you have just proven exactly my point: “I’m not denying there are people gifted with extraordinary insight, nor that a spiritual connection is very much possible, but to claim a live mental connection with a dead Master is surely further delusion.” What is the spiritual connection for you then? that is in my opinion the highest form of art possible for humans. You might be that type of people who think that the reality they live in is the only one possible, a human mind/body is a supermen in the galaxy and rest just bullshit. Only because you cannot see? Look at Tibet (what’s all that nonsense about the book of dead then?), books by Yoganada (who covers physical materialisation of amsters) and other records. Even Lokesh covered his example of seeing Osho whilst Osho was physically elsewhere.
I wouldn’t claim to be sure of anything as one day you might have an experience , quite a mind-blowing one too.
No need to put me in that sort of pigeon-hole, thanks, Chetna, I’m open to quite a lot of things actually, you’d probably be surprised.
But I hardly think the Tibetan Book of the Dead gives credibility to ongoing ‘mental connection’ to a dead Master, especially nearly a quarter century after his physical death.
And “even Lokesh” (he’ll enjoy that!) ‘saw’ Osho while Osho was alive, not dead, right? Which is a different matter entirely to a ‘physical connection’ with a dead person, isn’t it?
As for materialising hamsters (thanks for cheering me up this cold, gloomy early evening, btw) – well, please enlighten us all how that relates to the ongoing ‘mental connection’ that I’m doubting.
Yes, no doubt ‘there are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in my philosophy’, Chetna, but as there’s a rather large amount of utter bullshine swirling around in the minds of many so-called ‘spiritual’ people – probably more than in most human groups or communities, it would seem – seasoning one’s open-ness with a liberal amount of rationality and common sense is pretty much an imperative, imho.
Do you not have any sense of connection to Osho, in any way?
I’m asking because you appear to, and wonder how you might express that connection, non connection. !!!!
“even Lokesh” (he’ll enjoy that!)
SD, you are right. I did. Made me chuckle.
Arpana. Most people I know who have moved on are more interested in having a sense of connection with something that does not change within themselves. Some may experience the need to call that certain something Osho. That is their business. Others do not. That is their business.
Osho was instrumental in setting me in a direction that has brought me to certain understandings about the human drama etc, but I have no need to have a sense of connectedness with Osho. Osho might have played it like he would one day be pulling astral strings, but for sure he knew that was bullshit. Osho loved ZEN above all else and therfore having a sense of connection with someone called Osho would have been seen for what it is…holy baloney.
Lokesh says:
>> Osho loved ZEN above all else and therfore having a sense of connection with someone called Osho would have been seen for what it is…holy baloney.
If we take Osho out of the equation, all the people who have made me who I am were dead. My sense of connection was total. They had something to say and I was ready to listen. With Osho it was something different. The connection was made when he was alive … wow … and now him being alive or dead is irrelevant. It was always ME anyway.
And Chetna, further re these claimed physical and mental connections with (the physically dead) Osho, you must know how powerful is our mind and its imagination?
Eg the placebo effect, where ill people can improve when given an innocuous substance if they believe it to be a powerful medicine that’ll be a great help to them?
Or, at another extreme, the destructive nature of worry, which is simply negative imagination?
Only this evening I was sitting in this very room, feeling cold at first, until ‘remembering’ that I’d just put on the central heating, I began to feel comfortably warmer. But when I left the room after about 20 mins. I found the heating switch was off after all, so I’d simply imagined myself warm, the heating I’d thought was on was a self-created illusion!
People believe what suits them, don’t they, which I think is almost certainly the case in the ‘connection’ matters under discussion.
Moreover, a short while ago, I heard from a ‘Poona veteran’, there when Osho died/left his body, that he’d specifically stated there’d be no such communication from him, and that there were to be no ‘mediums’.
In my experience, one exalted group leader sometimes used to say he was passing on verbal messages to us from ‘Bhagwan’, which I suppose might have been possible while he was alive, but which in retrospect, for various reasons, I’m sure was utter delusion.
Shantam , words and meaning are two different things.. this should keep you busy.. tell me if you get beyond the first sentence then lend it to Chetna….she’s busy with Vartan making something from nothing.
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Philosophical/Silence_and_Words.html
and here for our Greek viewers..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology#Parmenides_and_monism
what is never ? ..what is born ?… what is died ? what is lsd ?
what is the sufi heart of ‘fna, what is Zen nothingness, what is Tatwamasi Swetketu
. Tea anyone ?
Yes, please, no sugar.
prem martyn says:
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Philosophical/Silence_and_Words.html
. Tea anyone ?
That zensite.com is very good … I was plowing through this the other day. Fascinating stuff.
“Zen Has No Morals!” – The Latent Potential for Corruption and Abuse inZen Buddhism
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/Zen_Has_No_Morals.pdf
A Reply to Christopher Hamacher’s “Zen Has No Morals!”
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/A_Reply_to_Christopher_Hammacher.html
@BV…Well there you go….my remedy for all that would be doing the Harlem Shake regularly, plus joining Michael Palin’s anarcho syndicalist revolting peasants on a re-education program for all aspirants.
and do not allow robes….
fancy dress obligatory, with clothing hire shop attached to the cafe for all disciples, teachers etc. I especially enjoyed Osho’s pantheon of the new hindu gods.
Did I ever tell you about the time I………
prem martyn says:
>> Well there you go….my remedy for all that would be doing the Harlem Shake regularly
>> and do not allow robes….
Now you are talking! The Suicide Girls cult. Shantam will be running to join them …
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“Osho loved ZEN above all else and therfore having a sense of connection with someone called Osho would have been seen for what it is…holy baloney.”-I think you are wrong Lokesh because in Zen “there is no birth; there is no death; there is no coming; there is no going; there is no same; there is no different; there is no permanent self; there is no annihilation.”. There is no question of dead or alive Osho! Osho only changed his form…
in zen, language is used for absorbtion and dissolution so as to promote non linear loops, think of the number 8.
similar to rumi’s poetry…..
if we think and label , think that it is causing itself as we do it, not that the thought is the conclusion of something identifiable.As soon as the identified arises , think that it is the cause of something not the result of a process. Curtains are curtain-ing, tea is tea-ing, reasoning is reasoninging…
On the Ning Nang Nong
On the Ning Nang Nong
Where the Cows go Bong!
and the monkeys all say BOO!
There’s a Nong Nang Ning
Where the trees go Ping!
And the tea pots jibber jabber joo.
On the Nong Ning Nang
All the mice go Clang
And you just can’t catch ‘em when they do!
So its Ning Nang Nong
Cows go Bong!
Nong Nang Ning
Trees go ping
Nong Ning Nang
The mice go Clang
What a noisy place to belong
is the Ning Nang Ning Nang Nong!!
Spike Milligan
Now that’s what I call illustrating the point – post of the day, pm!
( i’m singing it faster and faster for fun )
this is wonderful martynness !
Chetna says, ‘there is no birth; there is no death; there is no coming; there is no going; there is no same; there is no different; there is no permanent self; there is no annihilation.’
Methinks she read that in a book.
Strange experiences happen to people all the time. And if you do weird things like meditations and encounter groups you are more likely to have unusual feelings BUT NONE OF THAT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH SPIRITUALITY OR GIVE ANY CLUES AS TO WHY WE ARE HERE. The connection is illusory and part of the maya.
And the kebab version, ‘consciousness’ in Greek is συνείδηση (syneidesis) which implies ‘an awareness of two’ … if the self (as in self-awareness) is the one, then what or who is the other? The other is ‘the world’. So consciousness which is the modern world for enlightenment is a constant awareness of the self within the world. We have been created to experience the world. Doh.
The shft is into the experiencer, which simplyfies the matter. Take the ayahuasca movement…big down here on Ibiza. I know people who have been drinking jungle juice weekly for twenty years. I’ve watched this. My conclussion is that they become comforable with the experience or experiences. They report all manner of visions, yet they remain basically the same after seeing them. I wonder if they are missing something and that is who or what is it that entertains those visions. Donovan sang,’ you can just sit their thinking on your velvet throne about all those rainbows you can have for your own’ and so they do, and so do you if experiencing a sense of connectiveness with Osho today.
Osho gave me great advice on the matter of psychedelics when I was 23. That’s 38 years ago now and that advice still rings true. In essence I believe that our job is to simplyfy our lives and really get down to who we really are. You may well experience a connection with Osho today but I ask you what good does it really do you. Your guru may simply be a boo-hoo because you are afraid of being alone. That which is afraid of being alone is a false self. Apart from that, if you really examine the situation, you are a fiction, a whiff of smoke that will one day dissolve in the fresh breeze. If Osho was who he truely claimed to be he no longer exists as a conscious seperate entity and therefore all connectivity with him is just the working of the limited ego self’s imagination. Gurdieff was very adament about being aware of the power of imagination. Coupled with that one can question who or what is it that imagines. So, all you who are enjoying connectivity with Osho, you are missing something very important and that is….if you enter into who it is that believes they are enjoying a connection with Osho you will find that this is simply a dream.
I’ve always enjoyed Osho’s No Water, No moon discourses. They had a powerful impact when sitting listening to them being delivered at the old boy’s well manicured tootsies and they still do even today, because that was Osho speaking about that which he loved so much. No need for a clipboard with notes because he really knew what he was talking about…straight from his passionate heart. No water, no mon sums it all up perfectly.
Unless I am mistaken, this is enlightenment day. Back in the day that was a big boo-boom event. Recalling it now feels like a recollection from another lifetime. Those were fantastic times. I reckon the indication of a great master is not how many disciples he or she has but how many people they have assisted in the process of becoming masters themselves and thus doing away with the whole need to worship a personified entity, for you have become a manifestation of that which taught so many years ago. Otherwise what’s the point?
auto tea maker
robust 1970′s pot
bubbling tea
What taste !
(Ning Nong 2013)
biscuit ?
Lokesh says:
>> Take the ayahuasca movement…
(Excellent post, thanks)
Many of the ayahuasca practitioners you speak-of are just discovering the inner landscape and are probably also a bit lost in it. Twenty years or twenty days makes no difference. It’s not until one stops that context can be found. They need to stop taking poisons and start merging the inscape into the landscape.
I recently watched Vismayas half hour, talking about her ayahuasca experiences (quite sad really), but I can see that one can believe whatever one wants to be believe. As John Lennon said, whatever gets you through the night …
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
All drugs, on the final rung are (just) pathology. Being in love is probably the best drug. It doesn’t last very long but when its on, it’s the mutts.
>> You may well experience a connection with Osho today but I ask you what good does it really do you. Your guru may simply be a boo-hoo because you are afraid of being alone.
I loved being alone. I am my best friend. But since starting on this new road of being born-again, I am doing totally different things, studying new subjects, and meeting new ppl and old friends. I met you, didn’t I? I think you are good enough for now.
Let us plant the leaves if we want trees to grow in a speedy way.
Osho Management Sutra developed after a life long research by the Anglo Saxon disciples of an Indian Mystic!
21st March, 2013
Osho Enlightenment day.
What’s the hurry?
Shantam Prem says:
>> Let us plant the leaves
Plant leaves???
What are you making, compost?
Îs compost politespeak for bullshit?
All herbivores give good compost. I was confused with Shantan planting leaves … he gave me a mind-lock. Now I’m thinking bullshit …
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/483800_10200689745222976_1421747688_n.jpg
Morning view
Mountain Peeks
Sound of … Boo !
Cheeky Mountain !
I think it was during the early college years, while sitting in Physics, Chemistry, Mathematics class, my heart was asking , Where is India’s contribution into the development of contemporary civilisation. Is there a single sphere of human life, where india(n) are the leaders, they decide the agenda and world follows. If to become Engineer is the sole purpose of my life, why i have to be born In India and not in the west?
Naturally such answers that once India was a golden sparrow that we had First university of the World in Nalanda that we gave the zero etc. were not satisfying me.
Where ever we look around, all this prosperity and its companions are brought in our life because of the West’s inquisitive mind. Somehow Christian belief that God wants to create replica of His kingdom on the earth has transformed the face of life.
It was in 1983, when Osho first entered in my life that i found my purpose of being born in India. His innovative approach towards the inner exploration is legendary, one of its kind. i still remember sentence of a famous journalist, ” By giving Osho to the world, India has repaid its debt.”
30 years later i am saddened by the fact that unique Ashram of Osho has become just any other Ashram, any other resort because of those disciples who will protect their turf at the cost of anything. their pick and chose version of Osho makes them sustain their survival but at what a cost`!
Fast changing world will never realise that Osho’s Ashram was not just any other ashram the way Google is not just any other IT company.
Any way, 21st March is the day when Osho became like Buddha, like Mahavira. It is His enlightenment day.
Shantam Prem says:
Where is India’s contribution into the development of contemporary civilisation. Is there a single sphere of human life, where india(n) are the leaders, they decide the agenda and world follows.
India has given the world … curry. Don’t underestimate the contribution because the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach. Curry is Britain’s favourite dish.
Osho like Buddha had to leave India because Indians can’t count. As soon as Indians start educating their people then they might invent something.
Can we all talk about the power bit now that we’ve done the occult part.
I’ll start it off.. Osho …No Power ? You must be joking….
Well it was power but like a windmill or solar battery, user friendly and left very little mess compared to usual social methods.
It, the lived communal full-on Sannyas and being a Sannyasin, probably scared the shit out of my family when I came back from Pune, and continues to do so with my alienated siblings, which is symptomatic of all the unexpressed sentiment Osho addresses to pull us out of stupor. If you can call suburban post war emotive trauma from a middle class, lawn grass-cutting and car washing nuclear set up, the basis of emotively reciprocal ‘ family ‘.
Osho did a great job in shaking that up, and I of course made my own ‘mistakes’ in due course, but coming back to face head on , the recidivists of suburbia with all the incestuous neuroses, was a godsend. I can heartily thank Osho for that and for never having looked back on the freed ability to match like with like, after the emotional terrorism of ‘dysfunctional family’ and of the public school paedophile spiteful teachers, for whom teaching was nothing more than fascist coercion. England in the sixties and seventies was just a battle ground, and thank fuck Osho and primal and waving cocks around, and shagging naked in group rooms was there. There was a fight to be had and we were going to be armed to the teeth with our testicles in our hands. Of course all of this was happening in someone (me ) who hardly comprehended the release from bondage let alone the heart-peace (meditation) ensuing, but energy darshan with wonderful crazy Osho proved that there was more than lawn mowing to be had and enjoyed in youth.
My generation ? …. we had been robbed by the post war black and white film, emotively anal unspeaking fascists and we were going to hit the streets. Nobody warned us of the trouble we could make for ourselves, but the wonderful thing is that despite the fuck ups or possibly because of them , authenticity came shining through and still does. For that I can truly say Me and Osho…. what a team….. !
I hope this puts paid to the idea that to be with Osho and grateful too, one has to talk gobbledegook, have an opinion on all things spiritual or develop one’s emptiness along any ready made lines. Frankly there aren’t any, and any door one uses to approach Oshoness in , is thanks to the big disneyland he offered and we made happen, or possibly still do.
The authority or power one accrues from any of that is generally likely to be clean enough for use, certainly a hugely more authentic one than that offered by social democracy’s punishment schools for acquiescence etc, although as many have noted from my previous tirades, my main focus has been on our own creations first, without constant reference to the malady of society as an excuse for our own muck ups.Today I chose to write differently, though for anyone who knows me this is no contradiction but admittedly a knowingly overdue public compliment to all those , especially Osho, who mucked in and got smelly, without lasting damage to anyone but oneself, in fact quite the opposite, one has actually enormously expanded through the sannyas deep end.
Thanks Osh,
and all the best to you fellows and fellowesses.
M
Happy Enlightenment Day everyone.. it certainly feels like it here..
PM, most enjoyable post.
Lokesh, thanks for the up…glad you enjoyed.
St Martyn, you must be one of them Rajneeshees …
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/556722_309225935869740_1519603118_n.jpg
I am offended that would even consider that I might be offended.
is that a first offence or have you been judged before ?
Osho’s enlightenment day co – incides with the northward / spring equinox , that sure rings a bell !
At facebook group, Save Osho Pune and Samdhi, i have changed the cover photo with latest of Samdhi.
Please have the Darshan!
Who’s this Samdhi chap, Shantam?
It’s Jesus’ Indian name.
Movie INCEPTION
The whole meaning of the ending was not to argue about whether or not he was dreaming or if it was reality, the meaning of the ending was a message saying that it doesn’t matter whether he was dreaming or not he was happy and that’s all that matters. For ever theory backing up the fact that he was dreaming there’s a another theory to back up the fact that he wasn’t dreaming !!!!
I guess i didnt see this response lol but yes your right. when you dream your mind teleports to another physical dimension, this new physical world is created by small doses of DMT. When you die your pineal gland (which stores DMT) literally explodes and all your DMT you have built up presents itself to your concious mind in a way creating a whole new phyical dimension/whole new life. A dream feels like 2 hours but in reality its 5 sec. now imagine all
your DMT being used. Years…..
I once saw my life go past my eyes as I was flying through the air during a bike accident. I also had on various occasions an adrenaline rush when narrowly missing potential accidents. It’s amazing what the body can do in milliseconds.
When you roll Jesus and Elvis into one, what is the creation?
It is me, claimed Bikram Chaudhary founder of Bikram Yoga..
Some time i think, if by chance i am born in the west next life, i just wish Not even the shadow of Indian yoga or religious preachers in my life.
I think west needs to be self reliant in this matter..
Moses, Jesus and who is the Next, when is the next?
Fillers have filled too much time and space.
Shantam Prem says:
>> Some time i think, if by chance i am born in the west next life, i just wish Not even the shadow of Indian yoga or religious preachers in my life.
Plastic Jesus is your man
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“People were asking me, why the whole world is against you. The world is not against me. I am against the world because i have chosen truth. And i will say only that which is absolutely my experience. I will not compromise in any way, for any reason what so ever.” OSHO
Beloved Osho, there is no need for you to compromise. We your people will do this dirty work for you. We will make your work compatible with the expectaions of the world. You just relax now. Your managers are quite capable to protect the investment!
Fact is disciples on the top of the pyramid need to keep intact the spirit of Master’s work, if they are really of the feeling; master has left the body instead of dying.
This is another story, most of the people involved in priestly work, know quite well, those who have gone have no say in the worldly matters. Who so ever they may be.
Well, if ‘everyone has their own Osho’, as one or two here have observed, it’s just a free-for-all really, isn’t it: ‘your’ Osho against ‘mine’ against ‘his’, against ‘hers’, against ‘theirs’..?
Rather like so-called “spiritual education” that Prem was recently advocating at this place, which version is the ‘truest’, the ‘most authentic’? One, some, all, or even none?
So it becomes a political power game, in which, Shantam, you’re most certainly a ‘have not’, who desperately wants to be one of the ‘haves’. Well, we all think we know best, so what’s so special about you and your point of view?
PS: You do realise you’re a ‘machine’, I trust?
I can be a machine, because Satya deva has found out his spiritual coach is an I pad!
So you haven’t realised you’re a machine then, Shantam? A purely mechanical set of robotic reactions that you take for a ‘real self’?
No need to feel offended, btw, it’s only the human condition, you’re part of a vaaaaaassssst community.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say that being mechanical is the only human condition. Unfortunately for most it is.
Gurdieff taught much about the mechanics of the human condition. To not recognise that you behave like a machine means you have not even begun to lay the foundation for breaking free from one’s mechanical nature.
Good luck.
plastic jesus ?
mechanical life ?
Do we need to LEGO more ?
Well, Shantam almost certainly requires his LEGOver to er, ‘move on’….
http://www.jesusdressup.com/
Humans are not mechanical, they are organic. Part of the organism is mechanical but the mechanics are controlled by the organism. The robot behaviour arises with societal living. You really have to be a non-sannyasin to see the sannyasin robot behaviour in its full glory. It’s like watching ants trying to be individual … oops, sorry … unique.
Conditioning is like fart, it stinks when others have it…
Freedom from conditioning is a big business without knowing the fact, a time comes by itself when “periods” stop by themselves!
Do religious preachers and spiritual shotguns also have conditioning?
No, if you beleive doctors don’t fall sick.
Most of the humanity is ruled by their conditioning, but not me; i am always in miniority.
(Common sannyas illusion but very much in high light in the ex. Oshoites)
Btw, Shantam, please don’t imagine I think myself an ‘exception’, but I do try to be ‘mechanic’ as well as ‘machine’. Occasionally, I even get to be manager of the factory’s repairs workshop…
Why, one day I might even meet the, er, ‘Owner’…
You never know your luck in a universe of infinite possibilities (or even in a small town)….
Shantam shantam… where oh where did you learn about psychological insight ?Which part of India do they have psychological introspective motivational collaborative feeling to feeling exchanges…or the history of psychological confidence and language to back it up? That which westerners have been forced to develop, just to make some sense and warmth out of our mechanistic lives. Why try even to meet or match westerners in psychotherapeutic terms when its not part of your social mechanisms ? Indians per se are materialist of this or that world and have to cycle very fast to develop a middle class that will be free enough to invent new forms of interaction to manage their ancient society.But it won’t happen because they have religion without a single piece of linguistic emotive analysis. I’m not saying either side is better, but surely you notice the difference in the way you feel amongst your own and the way you feel amongst westerners who have years of rationalist analytical rebellion behind them ? I can’t play the sitar, but I can sing you any number of folksy popular liberation or relationship love songs of enquiry. Name me one artist in India who is popularly famous for challenging social mores, in a song or ever.
prem martyn says:
>> Name me one artist in India who is popularly famous for challenging social mores, in a song or ever.
One whose name begins with an O and ends with an O? I will never get over the fact that he was Indian. He should have been Greek. He’d be broke now. Good analysis of the East/West middle-class psycho-culture differentiation there prem martyn.
I am coming late to this thread, but talking about psychic and occult, I would like to know what you think of this man’s lectures and ideas.
this is one link
http://vimeo.com/61765960
the rest of them are in the website
http://www.sanctusgermanus.net
It is a dualistic, light versus darkness opposition, lightbearers against dark forces, etc., but I was touched by a couple of things, the idea that people interested in spirituality are necessarily misfits, which reminds me of similar words from Osho. And another thing is that time is speeding up because of the end of the old cycle and beginning of the new one (I feel that, but of course this could be only my personal rush to the final destination).
Hello Martyn, hello hello Frank
Diane ,
This is really all about absent healing….
Please ring the SN esoteric premium rate number given on the next page, and I guarantee there won’t be anyone in to help.
PS.
Frank has been kidnapped by aliens in Sherlock Holmes outfits, and taken to Conan Doyle’s spacecase ship, according to my understanding of Dr Mau’s video. Thanks for the lead.
Once Doyle kicked-in couldn’t watch any more.
The weirdest thing that ever happened to me … I had a girlfriend who had an old lady friend. During my only visit to the old lady (who was lying in bed) she asked me to hold her hand, after a few secs I felt a shock on my hand and it felt as if the light blinked. I asked her what it was and she said that sensitive people can feel her faulty heart valve …
They are still at it! hehe
Bible blockbuster’s producer claims MIRACLES took place on set …
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2291441/The-Bible-Blockbusters-producer-claims-miracles-took-place-set.html
Great for publicity, eh?!