Friendship, the Indelible mark of Sannyas

The only way sannyas can move forward will have to be through friendships – Vartan

In ancient Greece friendship was held to be the highest form of relationship that any two humans could participate in. Higher than the alligence to race, religion, and even blood. In Aristotle’s words, friendship is a single soul living in two bodies. It was however the story of “Damon and Pythias” that gave expression and example for “true friendship”, and in modern psychology we find such a topic called the “Damon/Pythias Complex”.

“Around the 4th century BC, Pythias and his friend Damon, both followers of the philosopher Pythagoras, traveled to Syracuse. Pythias was accused of plotting against the tyrant of Syracuse, Dionysius I. As punishment for this crime, Pythias was sentenced to death. Accepting his sentence, Pythias asked to be allowed to return home one last time, to settle his affairs and see his dying mother. Not wanting to be taken for a fool, the king refused, believing that once released, Pythias would flee and never return. Damon asked the king to take his spot while he went. The king agreed, on the condition that, should Pythias not return when promised, Damon would be put to death in his place. Damon agreed, and Pythias was released. Dionysius was convinced that Pythias would never return, and as the day Pythias promised to return came and went, Dionysius prepared to execute Damon. But just as the executioner was about to kill Damon, Pythias returned. Apologizing to his friend for his delay, Pythias told of how pirates had captured his ship on the passage back to Syracuse and thrown him overboard. Dionysius listened to Pythias as he described how he swam to shore and made his way back to Syracuse as quickly as possible, arriving just in time to save his friend. Dionysius was so pleased and astonished with their friendship that he pardoned them both.”

Friendship is the most sacred of relationships because when it begins it is unconditional. Two people happen to meet through a shared concern and decide that they like each other enough, to walk together for a while. As time passes a friendship develops and grows. It takes time. If you were handcuffed to somebody and forced to climb a mountain together, it would take about an hour,  but in general-life circumstances it may take months or years.

The only way sannyas can move forward will have to be through friendships. The “I am better than you” model doesn’t work anymore. The only reason you felt you were better than me was because you were closer to Him but now He is no longer in the body you look like the dog that caught the car it was chasing… now what?

People who cannot form relationships come under the Autism Spectrum. The Aut part of Autism is short for Auto (automatic) which means The Self. For the autistic individual nothing much exists outside The Self. But for us less fortunate ones, we like to feel that the sunrise (or even a good movie) is always better when viewed with someone else.

Friendship in Sannyas is an unusual phenomenon. I’d say that 50% of those who came to sannyas came because they met sannyasins and liked what they saw, and the other 50% just fell in love with Osho and more often than not, found other sannyasins somehow “in the way”. For the first group life was easier but for the second less so. And there were and are many gray areas in-between.

Osho first started out as our Teacher, and then he became our Master, but he finished the journey as our Friend. And that is a great honor. In his words: “Love tends to be possessive; friendship is non-possessive love. Friendship is all that is good in love minus that which is not good. Friendship is the very essential core of love. To rise to friendship is really a great spiritual growth.

 

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97 Responses to Friendship, the Indelible mark of Sannyas

  1. Parmartha says:

    I appreciated this post Vartan, very heart felt. The story was very inspiring, I had not read it before. Those disciples of Pythagoras were really something! He was a lucky master in that respect!
    I hope that Contributors to SN will respond in an equally open and loving way to your post.
    Parmartha

  2. shantam prem says:

    Bodhi Vartan, this is the thread, the topic..you have dealt with utmost sensitivity and love….
    in Sannyas lingo, this is Osho Energy!

    Ps- I hope to see minimum 200 comments regarding this article and from new participants too, who have tasted even just a spoon full of friendliness and friendship during their adventure with Sannyas.

  3. Prem says:

    I have seen some Indian swami’s say “these therepaists know nothing but business and making money from innocent people on the name of spirituality”. Also seen some Westren therapists say ” these Indian guru’s stinck and will never grow out of their dogma’s”. I see both sides have some truth but they need to open up so they can gain what they are missing by embracing other’s point of view.

    I don’t think friends on SN needs more explanantion on this. We Osho friends can make meaningful impact on ourselves and others around us by coming together.

  4. Kavita says:

    this post is a breath of fresh air on sn , this moment i feel gratitude towards all the co- bloggers / sannyassins :)

  5. shantam prem says:

    Two or three times a month i open the pages of Oshonews.
    After a quick scan of headlines, my attention goes to the regular column Voyages, tribute to the sannyasins who died; the Q towards the other shore is moving really fast.
    When i entered Osho Ashram. i was 23,24. During last 20 years, images of thousands of people got saved in my bio memory chip. Have i ever spoken with all these people, went for some coffee or some meaningful chat?
    No.
    But still there is some bonding, which is much more compared to those thousands who work in the same office block for years.
    Atmosphere of meditation, open display of love, happiness, pain, misery, batch of silence or some group together, builds a feeling of friendliness. Without knowing personally, one still gets warm vibes..
    Death of any such known face leaves a trail of emptiness behind, and a smile…one day my photo will be in that column!
    PS- will expect some obituary from snews writers too. The friends i may never meet face to face.
    Reason?
    Our common meeting ground Pune is now B&B.

  6. Lokesh says:

    Great story. I have lots of sannyasin friends, although I use the term ‘friends’ loosely. I also have lots of people who aren’t sannyasins and I call them friends also.
    I am still friends with people I’ve known since I was five years old. The important thing I note about friendship is that it is a living thing and in most instances it will slowly die if left unnourished. I had a very rude awakening as to the true reality of many of my sannyasin friends back in the seventies…most of them disappeared when I really needed them. Perhaps says something about the sannyasin creedo, maybe says something about me…the jury is still out on that one.
    Over the years I’ve noticed that sannyasins were often viewed by non-sanyassins as a particularly selfish and self-serving group of individuals and there is no smoke without fire.
    I must say that being with people who spent some decent time round Osho does build a certain foundation from which it can be easier to form some kind of working relationship, simply because certain parameters have been agreed upon or that it is agreed upon that some parameters are simply not necessary, which in a way is also a parameter.
    Friendship has always been important to me. When it comes down to it I have very few real friends. I often describe Osho as having been a good friend to me during a difficult time in my life. He gave and asked nothing for his genorosity.
    I also meet sanyassins who I feel little in common with and just because they are sanyassins means nothing to me. I can’t relate to them on any important level and their Osho gibberish is just that.
    Take Vartan’s statement….’The only way sannyas can move forward will have to be through friendships. The “I am better than you” model doesn’t work anymore. The only reason you felt you were better than me was because you were closer to Him but now He is no longer in the body you look like the dog that caught the car it was chasing… now what?’ I simply can’t relate to any of it. I never lived with a I am better than you model. I’m not in the least concerned with sannyas moving forward or backward and am not actually sure of what that implies. I always thought the essence of sannyas was rooted in the present, the past being gone and the future not yet and very capable of taking care of itself.

    • bodhi vartan says:

      Lokesh says:
      >> I’m not in the least concerned with sannyas moving forward or backward and am not actually sure of what that implies.

      I can appreciate your opinion but I get to meet a lot of people and many of them new and somehow some ground rules need to be said and my first rule is, if you are going to be around me you better be ready to be my friend. That’s what that implies.

      >> I always thought the essence of sannyas was rooted in the present, the past being gone and the future not yet and very capable of taking care of itself.

      I disagree. What makes the human brain different to any other brain on the planet is the ability to project into the future and anticipate consequences. It doesn’t mean you are going to win, but it’s worth a bet. For me, sannyas, is going all-in. The future will constructed out the now and all that needs to be dropped is the past.

  7. Arpana says:

    Recall a remark Osho made to an individual, to the effect many weren’t at the ashram for enlightenment, although trying to tell themselves they were, believing they should be; they came for other things, and in this instance the individual wanted material wealth, ( She may have made a remark about the rollers. ) but was in denial, as people are; (He stressed he wasn’t condemning this. ) and I realized in that moment that what I wanted from Sannyas, and what I thought I would get from meditation, enlightenment, sannyas, a connection with Osho, what ever, (Unconsciously.) was quality relationships, in the widest sense; and I did; (Without getting enlightened in the way that has appeared to mean something very specific. ) which seems to go hand in glove with developing, because of Osho, Sannyas, meditation; trust in my perceptions about who to trust, connect to, and a developing clarity about when to draw lines in the sand.

    Before Osho, meditation. Sannyas. Quantity.
    After Osho, meditation. Sannyas. Quality.

  8. shantam prem says:

    If you blew off a building.
    Only the past stays intact in the foundation and debris of future remain the present.

    Is this the essence of Sannyas?

    Stay in the present!

    This stay in the present becomes jolly,when the parner from the past seems like fullfilling the promise of staying till the end of the future.

    • Lokesh says:

      I believe that living in the present is the best way to enjoy life, which is the very least we can do if enjoying health. The future is uncertain, therefore why not take the risk of living now? So far, so very good.

      • bodhi vartan says:

        Lokesh says:
        I believe that living in the present is the best …

        Selling ‘the present’ must be the biggest rip-off in history. I wonder who first thought of that one. Remember ‘the long now’? We have to invent something like that …

        • Lokesh says:

          Selling implies gaining something in exchange for a commodity. Therefore I’m not selling anything and nobody is being ripped off.
          Selling can also mean promoting something. Yes, I am promoting living a lifestyle centred in the present. To many here that is kid’s stuff, but out in the world many don’t understand what it means to live here and now. That is because most people believe themselves to be their mind, are completely identified with the mind. As most here will at least know, although perhaps not fully understanding the circumstance and live it, anyone who lives through their mind cannot be living in the present, because the mind cannot exist in the atomic moment. The mind is always somewhere else…never here….never now.

  9. prem martyn says:

    bedazzled by the search for the Grail, arcane religious proofs are tested for failing the humour test…. see here


    The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

    • prem martyn says:

      Friendship,
      not privilege or esoteric privileged authority in the land of the Grail…twas ever so amongst religious confraternities..

      my favourite are the veggy egalitarian Cathars or their predecessors the veggy Bogomils… here’s an ancient video clip of Divine Royalty meeting self determination…


      The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

      It’s always the absurd which defines worth.. Osho’s giggling is so much more memorable than all the power entrancing growth training stuff…..and absurdity can hardly be sold or promoted as a venerable aspirational commodity… it’s not bottleable because it resists therapeutic packaging….yet it stays fresh and disturbs and invites to play ….when left free to roam….

      • bodhi vartan says:

        prem martyn says:
        >> Osho’s giggling is so much more memorable than all the power entrancing growth training stuff….

        Osho giggling with the girlies just about tops it for me too. I still would have liked to have seen him shaved, in a pair of jeans, and a shirt tho.

  10. chetna says:

    Vartan, this is a beautiful story and a very deep understanding you have shared. I have noticed myself how much friendship can be shattered by jealousy and the game of “I am closer to Osho because I cleaned his toilets or ironed his socks” certainly does not work on a new generation of sannyasins. It makes me laugh in fact. Some have managed to make money on it but now I feel it will stop. The same applies to Pune, if you are a therapist from Pune you are more powerful etc.

    I think the reason the sannys movement is hardly alive is because the first generation of sannyasins are still playing this game. Most of those who have learnt anything from Osho are desperate to be teachers now and forget they are disciples. So many bitter comments are flying around between Indian vs Western approach.

    However, some friendships carry on and how beautiful to be around such people (sannaysins or not). So yes, I agree with you. Friendship is such a special form of love. I have experienced it first hand with Osho sannaysins. I have probably never experienced so much love and care for no reason at all from anyone else to such extend as from sannyasins…

    • Arpana says:

      Chetna said,

      ‘I think the reason the Sannyas movement is hardly alive is because the first generation of Sannyassins are still playing this game. Most of those who have learned anything from Osho are desperate to be teachers now and forget they are disciples.’

      This is not true Chetna.

      The moderators of this board are first generation Osho Sannyassins,
      and show no sign to me of playing guru, or demanding special
      privileges because they have been with Osho so long.

      Many of the long standing Sannyassins I have met have been amongst the most decent down to earth individuals have met in my life, not all, but many.

      How you can say the Sannyas movement is not alive is beyond me.
      Its a seething cauldron of everything, on a larger scale than ever. Across a wide spectrum of dark and light.

      • Swaram says:

        “The Osho movement is not alive” – this is a fact! Yes loads of “Osho things” are going on every where in the world but nothing compared to an Osho movement similar to when Osho was in the body. In the UK there was Medina and plenty of Osho centres around the country…. and today? Yes lots of groups, therapies, etc using Osho’s name and techniques but not a single meditation centre entirely and purely dedicated to Osho.

        • Arpana says:

          That’s a bit like saying a cats not alive because its not a dog.

          • Lokesh says:

            Good post. Arpana. I know many first generation sannyasins and most of them are pretty cool people, who are not in the least bit interested in being spiritual teachers, which isn’t to say there is nothing to be learned from being in their company.
            Yes, a few of my old Poona One pals became mini gurus, some have done a good job of it others not. Good luck to them. There are many worse occupations.
            I think its a good thing the communes dissolved. Good for their time they are now obsolete. I don’t know much about the resort, simply not interested.
            I think many sannyasins have something worthwhile to share on a grass roots level. Time to get disorganized and merge into global society.

  11. shantam prem says:

    Living in the present is the best…..
    Not falling sick in winter is the best.
    Not going for heart transplant after 50 is the best.
    Marrying a person and staying loyal the whole life is the best.
    Not to allow a lawyer single time in your life is the best.
    Having a house without mortgage is the best…….
    Billions of people are engaged in million kind of works because life is not the best all the time, most of the time with most of the people.
    I remember Osho saying in one of Hindi discourse, a really wise teacher in class will speak in a way that the student with least understanding can understand him. Intelligent ones don´t need teacher´ instructions, they can follow the lesson on their own too.
    I think with this kind of attitude in heart, Osho opened His shop.
    Now few customers are running a online campaign, ” Why you waster your money at Starbucks…making cofee at home is soooooo easy.”

  12. chetna says:

    Arpana, I live in the UK and sannays movement is close to zero here, at least in the way I personally see.

    There are few groups of people here and there, one commune which is not purely Osho and a lot of laziness for meditation.

    Other countries probably do better and that’s great. There are a lot of people reading Osho but I do not feel often the support by teh Sangha here. For that I go to India, Nepal and even Germany (Cologne of instance)

    Love
    Chetna

    • Arpana says:

      I also live in the UK, and from the top of my head I could name half a dozen Osho sannyassins who still go into meditation, but do so on their own.
      Osho people come in a vast array of types. Not just catholic, anti catholic and quietly or noisily into.

    • alokjohn says:

      Suspect sannyas will not flourish in the UK or the US. America murdered Osho and the UK is America’s closest ally. Both countries have some national karma to deal with in terms of their empires, to say the least!

      • Lokesh says:

        ‘UK or the US. America murdered Osho.’ Alok you don’t know that for certain and it might be an interesting exercise for you to ask why you choose to believe that.

        • alokjohn says:

          And it might be an interesting exercise for you, Lokesh, to ask why you choose to believe that Osho wasn’t murdered by the Americans.

          • Lokesh says:

            I don’t really know this way or that, Alok. As the old man was fond of saying, belief and doubt are two aspects of the same coin.
            Osho was quite radical, but not radical enough to qualify for assassination. The whole thalium story simply does not ring true. Immediate effects cause hair loss etc. Osho enjoyed relatively good health for some time after being tossed out of USA. He was quite unwell for some time before he went stateside. It’s far more likely that prolonged use of Nitrous and prescription drugs had something to do with his unfortunate death.
            My heart is not really in writing about this particular subject. It’s played out and makes no differance to my life whatsoever.

            • bodhi vartan says:

              Indians think that he was killed in Poona 2 by the white people.

              • Lokesh says:

                Coud be closer to the truth.

                • Arpana says:

                  Q:* THE PEOPLE HERE ADORE YOU. I MEAN, YOU ARE THEIR WORLD. THIS HAS BEEN AN HORRENDOUS PERIOD FOR ALL OF THEM, INDIVIDUALLY, AND CERTAINLY FOR YOU. BUT DO YOU ALMOST FEEL AS IF YOU, BY HAVING TAKEN THAT VOW OF SILENCE, THAT WAS THE CATALYST THAT BROUGHT THIS ON EVERYONE, ALL OF YOU?

                  (Tape side B)A:* No. It helped. You see only one side. You don’t see the other side. And everything has two sides.

                  My being silent helped the commune to settle, because I am an unpredictable man. Every day I can say something which can disturb the politicians, which can disturb the state, the government. The commune will never be settled if I had continued to speak.

                  Now the commune is settled, I can start speaking again. So this is the other side of it. My silence helped the commune. Now I will be speaking everything the way I have always spoken. Whatsoever is truth to me, I cannot compromise on it.

                  For example, just this morning I told them that the holy Bible is the most pornographic book. And I am going to take out all the pornographic portions, which are near about five hundred pages, and we are going to publish colored pictures of pornography, glossy with Bible quotations, and prove to everybody that “This is your holy book. And your courts are carrying it for taking oath. The Playboy is far more sensible.”

                  So it was good. My silence helped the commune to settle. My silence certainly helped Sheela to have a power trip.

                  Q:* BUT YOU HAVE NO REGRETS.

                  A:* But what harm she has done? She has simply destroyed herself and her whole gang. Now they are
                  hiding in Black Forest in Germany like criminals.

                  Q:* WHAT ABOUT THE ACCUSATIONS OF THE HOBO WHO HAD BEEN KILLED, AND I UNDERSTAND NOW THAT THERE WAS A LABORATORY FOUND WHERE THERE WERE BOMBS BEING MADE….

                  A:* So everything we are delivering to the police. Any criminal should be punished, should be brought to the court. We are helping. The police is here, FBI is here, state police is here. Our police is working, and we are discovering everything that she did.

                  And this could happen because of my silence. This is the other side.

                  But one has to remember that you cannot make me responsible for Adolf Hitler, because why I was not
                  born in Germany at that time? Otherwise I should have fought against him. You cannot make me responsible for Josef Stalin. Why I was not born in Russia at that time?
                  You cannot blame me for my silence. It is my birthright to speak or not to speak.

                  And I had come to America in silence. I did not begin it here. I began it in India. I had no idea of coming to America when I began silence. I came into silence.

                  But both the things happen, the good things happened, the bad things happened. And both will have
                  their effects.

                  Whoever is responsible for bad things will be sooner or later caught, and whoever is responsible for all the good things will be rewarded. Existence is very fair.

                  As far as my silence is concerned, it is absolutely out of both. Neither it has done good nor it has done bad. I was simply silent and absent and in isolation.

                  And I have the right. When I am asleep, if something happens you cannot make me responsible for it, that, “If You had not been asleep then this murder would not have happened.”

                  My silence has done good for me. My health was bad. Thirty year continuously in India traveling from one place to another place, talking to millions of people, fighting against every dogma and every stupidity.

                  And India is so full of it that no other country can be compared with it. Naturally I lost my health. I was never sick. I was so healthy that people used to say that my body seems to be made of marble.

                  And then slowly slowly these thirty years of continuous traveling and continuous fighting destroyed it.

                  I needed a rest, and those three years have immensely helped me. Now whatsoever crimes she has done, she will be punished for them. And in America, where twenty percent presidents are killed, you think one hobo is killed is much of a crime?

                  Q:* DO YOU?

                  A:* Just I am asking you. Where twenty percent presidents are killed who have all kinds of security, the most sophisticated security in the whole world. If a hobo is killed, I don’t think there is much to brag about it. She should be punished for it. She tried to poison three other people but fortunately they have survived. She has bugged hundreds of houses. My own room she has bugged.

                  Q:* WILL NORMALCY EVER RETURN TO RAJNEESHPURAM?
                  A:* It has returned.

                  Osho.

                  The Last Testament, Vol 3
                  Chapter #8

              • alokjohn says:

                Well I don’t think Keerti or any of the Indians who were in the Inner Circle have said such a thing.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Q:* WILL NORMALCY EVER RETURN TO RAJNEESHPURAM?
                  A:* It has returned.

                  Osho had a very well developed sense of humour.
                  Normalacy has retrurned. Ha ha ha!

      • bodhi vartan says:

        Alokjohn, I cannot speak about the US, but in the UK, at least at the level at which sannyas operates, I find the English to be very open minded and I don’t think many of the ordinary people in the street are aware of ‘empire issues’.

        If you ask me, the reason Osho is not as known (as perhaps some others in the field) is because he is not being put in front of people’s faces. At the moment I am still trying to identify the current nature of the field and how to best approach it. We are currently looking for a bigger meditation space in London and once that is sorted, I ‘ll start looking at advertising and generally raising the profile.

  13. Arpana says:

    Maybe it is, but because not following the growth pattern of a hierarchical model of development, which is what we know, is the norm, we cant recognise the development as such.

    Maybe that’s a good thing.

    Maybe best at an early stage to be invisible. !?!?!?!

  14. shantam prem says:

    The Last two comments of Alok John and Arpana show one aspect very clearly, ” Denial is one of the most potent emotion.”
    It is not me, it is not us, it is not our leadership failure…it is those third rate criminals who sabotaged my guru´s Taj Mahal!
    Seeds in the early stage remain invisble, but not those who have road building material poured over them!

    • Arpana says:

      The Last comment of Shantam show one aspect very clearly, ” Denial is one of the most potent emotion.”
      It is not me, it is not us, it is not our leadership failure…it is those third rate criminals who sabotaged my guru´s Taj Mahal!

  15. Arpana says:

    A Couple of interesting passages from Gurdgieff remembered by Fritz Peters.
    Thanks for the Heads up Parmartha. Excellent book. £19.95 from Amazon.

    Quote. The First.

    He said, however, that he had been
    studying the American language recently and had learned
    many new and useful terms; that he now wanted to change
    the term “fertilizer” to “shit” because the latter word was a
    “real” word . . . an honestly expressive word that gave the
    proper flavour of that particular human condition. He went
    on to say that I, like most young people—particularly
    Americans—always looked at the world upside down. For
    example, I assumed that anyone I met was good, honest,
    upright, etc., etc., and only learned the truth about people
    through disillusion. This attitude was a long, slow and
    improper process. “You must learn to look right side up,” he
    said. “Every person you see, including yourself, is shit. You
    learn this and then when you find something good in such
    shit people—some possibility not to be shit—you will have
    two things: you will feel good inside when you learn this
    person better than you think, and you will also have made
    proper observation. Just so, when you can observe self, if
    you already think self is all shit then when see something
    good in self will be able to recognize at once and will also
    feel joy. Important that you think about this.”

    The immediate association in my mind was with the
    Chicago group members and it did have the effect of
    changing my attitude about and towards them. Instead of
    feeling disappointment with them for not manifesting some
    sort of worthiness because of their association with Gurd-
    jieff’s work, I began to look for something else. It did seem a
    great deal more honest and realistic to look at people,
    including myself, as worthless—or shit, as he put it—and
    then discern some small, valid element in them. And, to my
    surprise, it amounted to a more compassionate view of
    humanity as well. Instead of watching with a critical eye for
    signs of failure, I began to watch for signs of success—as one
    might be delighted when a dog learned a trick—rather than
    berating it whenever it failed to learn something.

    Quote. The Second.

    When we began to talk about the Chicago group, however,
    I made a rather impertinent remark about what I called
    their “phony” attitude towards his work, and particularly
    towards their so-called morality.
    Gurdjieff, who did not usually—in my experience—have
    any particular taste for opinions or “gossip” about his groups
    or his disciples, seemed very much interested in my remark
    and pressed me for details. I went on to say, with a good
    deal of self-righteousness, that I was leery of his group in
    Chicago on at least two counts: their phony reverence, as I
    called it, and their tendency to use his work as an excuse for
    sexual promiscuity or at least a good deal of talk about
    sexual promiscuity. Being further prodded by him, I went on
    about their conception of morality seeming to me to be based
    almost entirely on sex and not on other customs.

    He smiled at this and then said, to my surprise, that he
    found this completely understandable. “In fact, this is
    perhaps even good thing you tell me about group people.
    America is still very young, strong country. Like young
    people everywhere, all Americans very interested, very
    preoccupied with sex things. So very natural for them talk
    and act this way. And not bad thing they do. I tell many
    times that all work must start with body; like I tell many
    times that if wish observe self must start from outside, by
    observing movements of body. Only much later can learn
    how observe emotional and mental centres. Young people
    not have very much inside, so not much to observe yet. And
    this is also good thing, one of reason I come to America and
    have many American students. Europeans already blase,
    know everything, or think know about philosophy, religion,
    other such things. This not true. They only have already
    formed inner self that makes them rotten inside because
    formed with unconsciousness. Americans more receptive
    because not closed up inside yet; they naive, stupid,
    perhaps, but still real. Americans, particularly, have more
    chance grow properly as men because have not yet become—
    like you say—’phony” men. For yourself, I tell always
    remember look for reasons that eye cannot see. You already
    notice difference between American and European morality,
    but when make judgment must observe deeper if wish
    understand.”

    I then asked him why it was that I felt so many of his
    students to be insincere in their interpretations of him and
    of his work. He asked me to give him an example and I said
    that they never seemed to me to listen to what he said—that
    is, the actual words — but that they almost always
    immediately placed an interpretation on such words which
    was, to me, manifestly untrue.

    “What you say is true,” he said, “but if you see this then
    you must already begin to see how difficult this work. Other
    evening when I tell that you learn differently from others, I
    tell truth. When you come Prieure first time you not yet
    spoiled, have not learn to lie to self. Already even then you
    can maybe lie to mother or father, but not to self. So you
    fortunate. But these people very unfortunate. Like you,
    when child, they learn lie to parents, but as they grow up
    also learn lie to self and once learn this is very difficult to
    change. Lying, like all other things, become habit for them.
    So when I say even ordinary thing, because they wish have
    reverence for their teacher—this reverence can be very bad
    thing, but is necessary for their good feeling—and because
    also wish not disturb their inside sleep, they find other
    meaning for what I say.”

    “In that case,” I asked, “how can they ever learn anything
    from you—or from anyone else?”
    “Maybe they not learn anything ever.”
    “Then why bother to try and teach them?”
    He smiled, indulgently. “Because is possibility, even if
    very small, may learn.”

    My Journey with a Mystic. Fritz Peters. CH. 3

  16. shantam prem says:

    Since i got my wife, my loving wife, i feel no need of any body else. She is my all in all.
    Running behind masters and esoteric books is for those who have some missing in their life.
    My wife is my center and also center of the cyclon!
    I understand Buddha, why he run away..He got no good wife!
    We are blessed..our centerless center is just entuned!

    From the diary of a UK seeker!

  17. chetna says:

     “Suspect sannyas will not flourish in the UK or the US. America murdered Osho and the UK is America’s closest ally. Both countries have some national karma to deal with in terms of their empires, to say the least!”
    I think this is a very interesting comment and I have heard it before in different circumstances. I think Yogananda specifically talked about this possibility.
    Arpana, your comment “Yep, but wrong about ALL first generation sannyasins being Catholic or anti Catholic” is really out of the blue. This language is not applicable to sannyasins and this is not what I meant at all. If you read my comment fully you will see that I certainly see another part of sanyasins flourishing as individuals and having beautiful friendships.
    So you think “half a dozen Osho sannyassins” sitting at home meditating make it an Osho movement in the UK?!-ha ha ha.
    To compare, I went to a retreat of a zen Master Thích Nhat Hanh in the UK last year and there were 800 people from all over the UK who committed to 5 days retreat which wasn’t cheap. Now, can you tell where in the UK I can do a regular Dynamic and White robe at least with 100 people? 50? 20? Maybe 10, 20 but not regularly.
    I know talking about numbers may sound like nonsense but let’s not forget that Osho is a master of meditation first of all and his techniques work more powerfully in a group. Let’s imagine you are a newcomer interested in Osho-doing Dynamic with another 2-5 people or with 100 will have a totally different impact if we generalize for a moment.
    Thích Nhat Hanh and Osho talk a lot about sangha, collective consciousness and the impact of group meditation. I saw it with my eyes how a large group of people changed through the retreat with Thay.
    Of course many old sannayisn do not have a need to meditate in a group and I am perfectly ok with my meditation alone (in fact I love it), but a group of like-minde people is a massive help and therefore I see a lot of benefit in “Catholic Sannays”:):) , oops I mean a real sannyas movement.
    Those who came to Osho were helped by Osho and his sannyasins and now it is no different, but where can we find them? Knock on their doors?
    And I am not even bothered with old sannaysins, I guess new people need a place to start with when they get interested. Otherwise it is a waste of Osho teachings if one cannot apply it in practise.

    • Arpana says:

      Chetna said.

      ‘Arpana, your comment “Yep, but wrong about ALL first generation sannyassins being Catholic or anti Catholic” is really out of the blue.
      This language is not applicable to sannyassins and this is not what I meant at all. If you read my comment fully you will see that I certainly see another part of sannyassins flourishing as individuals and having beautiful friendships. ‘

      Well I’ve re-read your comments and you said, which sounds a great big fat dismissive sweeping statement to me, (See below. ) which leads me to ask how have you managed to meet all the first generation sannyassins so you are in the position to make such a value judgment.

      “I am closer to Osho because I cleaned his toilets or ironed his socks”
      ‘I think the reason the Sannyas movement is hardly alive is because the first generation of Sannyassins are still playing this game. Most of those who have learned anything from Osho are desperate to be teachers now and forget they are disciples.’

      *************************************************************

      Chetna said.

      ‘So you think “half a dozen Osho sannyassins” sitting at home meditating make it an Osho movement in the UK?!-ha ha ha.’

      No I don’t. I am suggesting that things go on around Osho that are not particularly extrovert and hence not seen by carpers who have a very one dimensional outlook on what Osho sannyas is about.

      **************************************************************

      Chetna said.

      ‘And I am not even bothered with old sannyassins, ‘

      Remarks like the following gives the lie to that.
      If you are not bothered why mention them at all.

      “I am closer to Osho because I cleaned his toilets or ironed his socks”
      ‘I think the reason the Sannyas movement is hardly alive is because the first generation of Sannyassins are still playing this game. Most of those who have learned anything from Osho are desperate to be teachers now and forget they are disciples.’

    • alokjohn says:

      Chetna wrote : “Now, can you tell where in the UK I can do a regular Dynamic and White robe at least with 100 people? 50? 20? Maybe 10, 20 but not regularly.” I miss that as well.

  18. Lokesh says:

    Shantam says, ‘Ps- I hope to see minimum 200 comments regarding this article.’ Abandon hope all ye who enter here. It will depend if anyone comes up with a new thread and boredom levels amongst the enlightened ones.

  19. shantam prem says:

    Thanks God..for five years i am writing on these pages; my negative comments against the well oiled PR campaign about “flourshing Osho´s work.”
    I was thinking Sannyas movement has gone through forceful vasectomy, we need a reverse surgery, but finllay it is coming from the faithful folks that sannyas movement is hardly alive…
    Great
    Let us find the right doctor to give the certificate of death.
    Cause of death..Natural
    Suicide or murder are too nasty things, don´t fit with the sannyas senstivity!

  20. chetna says:

    Hey Arpana, now I can see you’ve read my comments but mixed them all up to prove some point. Sorry, I have no time to go into this further. Give me a call if you want, if you are interested to know about some exciting projects we have for the UK. Everyone is welcome to contribute. Oshooooo

    • Arpana says:

      How exactly have I mixed your remarks up.
      Clarify this for me.

      You said in essence, all first generation sannyasins see themselves in the following terms.

      “I am closer to Osho because I cleaned his toilets or ironed his socks”

      and then
      ‘I think the reason the Sannyas movement is hardly alive is because the first generation of Sannyassins are still playing this game. Most of those who have learned anything from Osho are desperate to be teachers now and forget they are disciples.’

      • prem martyn says:

        Hey guys remember.. Friends ! ok !

        Anyways..Chetna You cleaned Osho’s toilets… !!!? You mean Osho had to dump as well as not being celibate ? Blimey.
        Look Chets hun, I know there’s a ding dong going on with our copy and paster chief ding dong here , but hey we’re all friends now. And even Arps might be more than interested in the advanced shit stirring which I’m offering……Thing is when unpartnered couples did shit together in the Tantra groups back to back in a sown together sheet (technique from the old tantra civilization of khajuraho ,true..)to overcome deep worrisome conditioning it was a bit tricky with the water pots… the question is, did Osh have paper or……water jets or did he use fingers like the rest of us ?

        anyway I’m all for the new centre.. I’ve dug out some sixties posters that could be airbrush adapted for gender free advertising to please everyone

        http://moneydick.com/2007/05/15/flirty-fishing/

        and here is news of when a friend becomes more than a friend, in spiritual class.

        http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/15/john-friend-anusara-scandal-inside-the-wiccan-sex-coven.html

        Lets go for it . yeahhhhh.

        • prem martyn says:

          the explosive mix of religion, personal hygiene and shared communal living revealed :


          The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

  21. prem martyn says:

    ”Doubt helps your intelligence, sharpens it. Questioning makes you aware of many possibilities of which you may not have been aware before.”

    …first one to google who said that correctly gets to fire off a loaded judgement or receives an ff love-bomb by members of the Sunnyarse News readers, writers and censors committee.

  22. shantam prem says:

    alokjohn says:
    Chetna wrote : “Now, can you tell where in the UK I can do a regular Dynamic and White robe at least with 100 people? 50? 20? Maybe 10, 20 but not regularly.” I miss that as well.

    Why to miss Alokjohn, Cannot you request fellow Britisher and only authority on Osho, Dr. Amrito about this urgent matter. He can further talk with Jayesh; the St. Peter of Osho to have business talk with CEO of Sodexo man power company. They can surely arrange ten 20 people.
    I am willing to work for Sodexo even at three fourth of the minimum wage, if to do Dynamic Kundalini is part of the work!

  23. shantam prem says:

    Bodhi Vartan, Don´t worry, soon you will see digitally modified osho saved in a pair of jeans, and a shirt too.
    I think photoshop is no big deal. I have already suggested to St. Peter of Osho´s Church. Create better version of Osho, simply take his Indian-ity away.
    Look at the business potentials too. Same books with new titles. Writer´s name is Oliver, graduated not from some Jabalpur University but MIT!
    unless and until new guru is from United States of America, there is no chance for new wave of spirituality.
    USA is the path breaker..it is the leader, world like bunch of masses simply follow. Few follow reluctantly!

  24. prem martyn says:

    pretty advaita-ista , t shirt , possibly jeans, definitely shaved….


    The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

  25. shantam prem says:

    Lokesh says:
    15 March, 2013 at 1:23 pm
    I always thought that White Robe number was a lot of bullshit…

    It shows your constipated mind Lokesh, to term one of the finest departure strokes of Osho in such a way.
    There are people so full with high dose of self esteem, if they fart, they scream, it is a new perfume from Dolce and Gabbana!

    • Lokesh says:

      Shantam, if it shows anything it shows that I have always thought the White Robe Brotherhood is something for idiots to amuse themselves with. I agree with what you say about it being a masterstroke of Osho’s… it was. It illustrates perfectly how utterly lost many sannyasins are. He was a great teacher and don’t be worried everything he did was a device to wake his disciples from the eternal sleep of igorance. Unfortunately clowns like you will keep snoring through life for….er…uhm…eternity. Go worship your empty chair. Simple things amuse simple minds.

      • prem martyn says:

        There is one word of caution which I hardly ever make in spiritual matters in fact , rarely, no actually I’m going to correct myself…never. But there is an exception…
        Shantam..ahemmm…..
        DO NOT WATCH YOUR THOUGHTS….especially when driving as you may become drowsy…and suffer premature narcoleption.STAY AS CONSCIOUS OF EVERYTHING ELSE..AS POSSIBLE… BUT AVOID YOUR OWN IDEASzzzzzzzz….

  26. prem martyn says:

    Could someone pretend to be Frank, as he is currently on a charge relating to abandoning his posts and going awol. Personally I miss how he described his meeting with a remarkable man from Balokistan, by whom he was deeply influenced, and from whom he learnt his main teaching skill here on SN of minding someone else’s business.

    Some writers here hold up the mirage of reflection, so that we may humbly see the thirst for our original farce. So much so, that in the desert sands of the near east these remarkable men or women have been historically infamous for their sacred ability to make you feel completely wholly, at one with your own….. inadequacy ….or even to boil an egg watchfully , or even with an egg timer. If you too have realised this inability to grasp the immediacy of reality and still clutchingly cling onto flimsy furniture which is not bolted to the sacred ground in the face of an oncoming howling gale then join my campaign to have someone pretend they are Frank. Frank, fearless and full of desperate allusions, like sand in the third eye.

    The small print of sannyas news actually provides for one or other of the reader/ moderator commitee to write in the style of anyone else, thereby maintaining circulation, especially to the thousands in Oshodom who wake everyday for their daily dose of silencing media-titillation and letters bearing legal threats of a non-judgemental kind.

    Hugs

  27. shantam prem says:

    I was born to be non confirmist.
    During last 18 years of my sannyas life, i was keeping silent, swallowing my pride, when some asshole in the grab of therapist was commenting on my girl friend´s boobs. They were really beautuful. I have tried with many other people´s girl friends but mine had really something in them!
    Now i am mature, i can take my life in my hands..Now i can say fuck off you cultists. I will never cofirm your beliefs, rotten beliefs.
    Walk alone dear friends walk alone.

    PS- i have now a new girl friend at the twilight zone of my life. Her boobs have also something. Should i say thankyou to existance?
    No…never, for what?
    I have found her during my last trip tp Czech Republic!

    (from the diary of an Oliver who was once called Swami Om)

    • prem martyn says:

      Is she a bouncing Czech ?
      Shantam , you surreptitious individualist… I knew all along of course that your desire to run the Thunderbirds HQ in India, communally, holding the old empire team to account, was but a ruse. Secretly you have been using these column inches of yours, to get free ‘stand up for yourself ‘ advice from others further up the path and waiting at the bus stop for you. Well good luck to you, Czechs are intelligent educated people, with revolutionary history, who won’t need to eat advaice from an old duellist like you. Just let life swing and prepare to make your own mystiques or booboos.
      Apparently you have a hold on those things now.

      Pune … where’s that .. who cares……congrats.. and big it up(metaphorically) for Shant-I-am…

    • Lokesh says:

      Now i am mature, i can take my life in my hands, says Swami Shantam.
      Is he joking?

  28. Prem says:

    I dedicate this post to the eternal fight between Shantum and Lowkesh.

    Shiva means ” that which is beyond five elements” and Parvati means ” that which is of five elements”. Shiva is incomplete without Parvati. Thats why he is called Artha Narishwar which means half masculine and half feminine energy. The unviverse is a play , a leela of these two energies the black-hole and the milkyway , the destroyer and the creator.

    Got it Shantum and Lowkesh.

    • Lokesh says:

      Wow, Prem, that is deep. Shantam better watch out. You stand a chance of taking the deepless deep title, Prem.
      I’ m not in an eternal fight with Shantam. I just find him to be completely stupid, which doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy his comments, I do. It takes guts to be the SN village idiot. Where’s my rotten eggs?

  29. shantam prem says:

    Prem, i don´t see any fight between me and Lokesh..it is like playing Badminton..Different archs make the world complete.
    When Lokesh takes me as village idiot, i take it as compliment.
    We all project!
    Osho´s Ashram has gone in the coma for the simple reason, people who were different than the image of Jayesh have to go. What is left is more or less plastic..
    Am i projecting?

    • Lokesh says:

      Plastic people reminds me ofFrank Zappa….’Look here brother don’t you bug me with that cosmic debris.’
      Plastic people melt into the void when the sun comes up and the moon goes down and shakers start to shake around.
      Sorry folks, it’s Saturday night on Ibiza.

      • prem martyn says:

        Lokesh, You existential dancetrancist….Ibiza…not a legacy religion in sight or an opinion to censor….. i’d feel homeless…and Parmartha and Dharmen would be left jobless without a mouthpiece for respecting the true memory of our master’s efforts and neo neo neo insanyassins looking for a liberating state via texan goons or german neo-royalty…. this could start people living amongst themselves…with or without conditions or judgements…..i feel desperate already and in need of a centre…..just thinking about it… cojones de mi madre.. aieeeee..

        • Lokesh says:

          Typical Frank. Bit of truth there. He was a gifted man. Last time I saw him perform I left before the show ended because it was perfect.

          • prem martyn says:

            Lokesh . in the way of the what have we met-here-for.. I see you have answered many questions before we could freely post , email or even phone-in and dilemma.

            1) Is this ‘ leaving before the end because it was perfect ‘ also redolent of the other time when you met a remarkable person and left, before the end of the show.

            2) Have we now found our Frank’s last message on this board, as per my previous note ?

            3) Are Plastic People of the Universe knowingly filled with the empty source of emptiness, which is always playing the final tune.

            Am I overpunning, in mourning the absence of our punner in chief dear ol Frank ?

            Does Parmartha…….. make sense or….. ?

            • Lokesh says:

              1) Is this ‘ leaving before the end because it was perfect ‘ also redolent of the other time when you met a remarkable person and left, before the end of the show.
              Yes, it is just like bingo without a card. All the 8s, 108 and don’t be late.

              2) Have we now found our Frank’s last message on this board, as per my previous note ?
              Gone to Hollywood…as in, relax don’t do it when you’re going to….

              3) Are Plastic People of the Universe knowingly filled with the empty source of emptiness, which is always playing the final tune.
              Most definitely. Call any vegetable and the chances are good that the vegetable will respond to you. Who are the brain police?

              Am I overpunning, in mourning the absence of our punner in chief dear ol Frank ?
              Much in life is relative. Think of your dear old Uncle Joe.

              Does Parmartha…….. make sense or….. ? I believe Talking Heads have already stopped making sense.

              • prem martyn says:

                http://www.gemueseorchester.org/videos.php

                @Lokesh writes
                ” Most definitely. Call any vegetable and the chances are good that the vegetable will respond to you.”

                …..Which makes me think of this….From a Genevan friend of a friend… he was brought up a veggy and practises Zen .. as they say, if you can’t beat them then join in and blow them…

                He…after a few years of weirdnesses doing this stuff domestically (I was shown the photos a few years back I thought ‘ le nutter ‘ ! ) …But last year on telly, Migros the supermarket gave him an ad…


                The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

  30. prem martyn says:

    this week’s free gift ……opening comment about osho by lisa cairns….

    from 1.28 on vid time…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaYKY0yX03M&NR=1&feature=endscreen

  31. Arpana says:

    Not friendship!!!!!
    More friendship/enmity.
    The way teenagers are;
    and less fluid.

  32. shantam prem says:

    News reports are saying, 1,50000(One hundred fifty thousand) people came for Pope Frances first public mass. Not a bad number when few hundred people around the world are preaching, no organised religion!
    Amazing is the life, how game changes. just few years ago, Osho was saying so proudly, ” In the churches you see only old people, and then admiring his youthful audience.”
    Now in his own ashram one sees same old kind of people, but with a difference, instead of chanting Hail Mary, they wait for the eveneing. In pub, they can find easy to handle Olgas from Russia!

    • bodhi vartan says:

      shantam, it’s a growth thing … Transhumanism wants to be Scientology when it grows up, Scientology wants to be Mormonism when it grows up, Mormonism wants to be Catholicism when it grows up, Catholicism wants to be the Empire when it grows up.

  33. Prem says:

    Friends,

    This is amazing.. a must watch , very thought provoking. What if we apply this to spiritual education..may be there is a way the whole earth be transformed soon for better..

    http://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_build_a_school_in_the_cloud.html

    • prem martyn says:

      http://selfdirectedlearning.com/teaching-with-technology.html

      Prem, thanks, i’ve been using it here as also part of sdl…

      am currently watching, listening to Osho’s Language of Existence via the free streaming service link on my site…. wonderful SDL… on the inside….

    • satyadeva says:

      Enormous benefits, yes – but anything online always lacks one vital factor: the live, in-the-room presence and interaction of living human beings.

      As for “spiritual education”, well, there are so many often conflicting ‘paths’, points of view, teachings (just look at the posts here, for example!) that who would or could ever decide what and how to present it?
      It could well lead to even more disputes, more ill feeling, more conflict than ever.

      And btw, what is “spiritual education” anyway?

      Prem, if you truly believe “the whole earth” can “be transformed soon for better” then you must be a very naive dreamer. I mean, for a start, how close are you yourself to such a transformation?

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