Osho disciple files PIL in High Court against ‘fund mismanagement’ in commune : Dec 23
Actually it is strange to hear of “Commune” mismanagement. Without bowing either way, the Resort in Pune is not a commune, though it may have been historically. A commune is where those involved actually also do all the work. Even in Pune one this was not the case, and “Indian workers” were seen around and about doing jobs which presumably Laxmi felt could not be seen as an avenue to meditation. In that she was wrong!
Some readers have asked what is a PIL: here is the definition:
Public-Interest Litigation (PIL, or जनहित याचिका) - litigation for the protection of the public interest. In Indian law, Article 32 of the Indian constitution contains a tool which directly joints the public with the judiciary. A PIL may be introduced in a court of law by the court itself (suo motu), rather than the aggrieved party or another third party. For the exercise of the court’s jurisdiction, it is not necessary for the victim of the violation of his or her rights to personally approach the court. In a PIL, the right to file suit is given to a member of the public by the courts through judicial activism. The member of the public may be a non-governmental organization (NGO), an institution or an individual. (SN reporters)
Within days of the Pune Police registering an FIR against six of the present management committee members of the Osho Commune for allegedly forging Osho’s will, Sandeep Kulkarni aka Zorba — an Osho disciple and member of the commune — has filed a PIL in Bombay High Court alleging mismanagement of funds by its present management committee by forming private companies. It also alleged that the committee has been biased towards Indians and bans people from entering the ashram in Koregaon Park — which is against Osho’s teaching.
The PIL, which was filed on October 10, has nine of the present management committee members as respondents — Ma Gatha, head of Welcome Center; Ma Vatayana, Global Connection Department; Swami Jayesh aka Michel O’Brian; Swami Amrito aka George Meredith; Swami Yogendra aka D’arcy O’Brian; Swami Dhyanesh Bharti; Swami Mukesh Sarda; Ma Sadhana and Swami Devendra Deol.
The PIL, has alleged that the management has formed private limited companies in London, New York and Zurich, and royalty from Osho’s books, audios and videos are siphoned off through them. The PIL has attached a list of 15 such companies from which, the applicant claims, at least three members of the present management committee are benefiting.
It may be noted that one Osho International Foundation (OIF) registered in Zurich, the parent body of the commune, claims to hold copyrights of Osho’s published works, and legal battles have been fought, such as the Oshoworld.com case and trademark case in the US, challenging the claims of the Foundation.
“The Foundation, however, continues to challenge those who make use of the word Osho or his works on the Internet without its approval,” said a former member of the commune.
The PIL alleged that the management is acting contrary to Osho’s teachings, who said his words should reach the world as soon as possible. “Ma Gatha, Ma Vatayana and Swami Dhyanesh are restricting the entry of many seekers around the world. Now maximum sanyasins do not come to India and even Indian sanyasins keep away from the ashram. Slowly, the Rajneesh Ashram is becoming a private affair for 8-10 people,” the PIL stated.
Kulkarni said, “Osho is the Master of Masters and his work should reach maximum people. The present management is acting contrary to Osho’s teachings and thus not letting his work reach people. In my PIL, I have prayed for immediate dissolution of the management committee and appointment of new trustees. Nobody should be banned from the ashram except those who have committed serious offences. The fundamental right to enter the ashram should be protected.”
Ma Amrit Sadhna, spokesperson of the Osho Commune, said: “The matter is sub judice. We cannot comment.”
Let me say it at the amusement of lizards who will write me after my post.
It is in the interest of Osho Resorts Managers to ask for my mediation to solve the emotionally complex issues. I know the people on both sides of the fence and have no personal affiliation with any particular group.
No judge or consultant or path of love kind of practitioner can do justice with the finer nerves behind the hard skull.
Without out of the court settlement, insurgency will starve the main seat.
Shantam, is this an April Fool’s Day message that somehow got delayed?
In the pic that man in the middle looks like Santa Claus with a false beard. Another April fool on Yuletide day!
Repeating Osho is “Master of the masters” kind of nonsense is one of the reason, helicopter crashed on the vineyards!
What can I say, if all this is true..You cannot escape your self even with meditation. Karma seems to follow Russian young woman; in spite of what ever you try to do, you end up with an old mafioso man with if not vodka, then gin tonic. Well, gin tonic is better.. I hope amrito is able to keep to the decent bottle when/if events evolve and the girl goes.
and dominic you were so on the spot, but that is an other story. And turkey was delicious. I hope yours as well..
“Kulkarni said, “Osho is the Master of Masters and his work should reach maximum people. The present management is acting contrary to Osho’s teachings and thus not letting his work reach people.”
See https://www.osho.com/user/register
I would have thought this is quite a good way to ensure His work should reach maximum people.
I agree Alok.
That is a bad sign, Alok.
Before death comes, I wish to see one more change in the world.
True Master(sadguru) is an Anglo Saxon, disciples are Indians (too)!
My heartily wish is entrepreneur west becoming self reliant in this field of Guru Inc.
You’re decades behind, Shantam, there have already been /are at least two that would pretty well fit your specific bill, although they’re sort of ‘honorary’ Anglo-Saxons rather than strictly by birth:
John de Ruiter (Canada and still very much alive) and Barry Long (Australia, left body 10 years ago).
However, I very much doubt whether you’d resonate to either of them.
But there again, I guess you’re thinking – so very unselfishly (haha) – of others’ requirements (or rather, your personal requirements for others), whereby you’d then hopefully be left alone, to get on with your pseudo-religio/politico fantasies in peace (or rot in the process)?!
‘(or rather, your personal requirements for others)’
That is so succinct.
Wow, you really are irritated with Indian conditioning. We all have some, so why so much?
ED: EKANTAM, ONLY ONE OF THE FOUR EXTRACTS FROM OSHO TALKS THAT YOU SUBMITTED HERE HAS BEEN INCLUDED AS IT’S THE POLICY OF SANNYAS NEWS TO NOT PUBLISH MORE THAN ONE LENGTHY QUOTE IN ANY SINGLE POST.
Osho said
A commune is always around a living Master!
Minus a living master, commune is reduced to Spirtual Entertainment!
So what is presently there is Spiritual Entertainment Resort!
Jayesh a phony disciple is the Manager of Spiritual Entertainment Resort Pune!
So Commune mismanagement means
turning a commune into Spiritual Entertainment Resort!
In these few beautiful talks,
Osho hits hard at phony disciples (Pune & elsewhere),
no devotion towards Master – is a Phony disciple.
Osho says it was his device to expose phony disciples,
when he said that Master Disciple relationship is outdated and bogus.
Osho says devotion towards Master
is the hall mark of real disciples,
whether they be of Zen or Upanishad!
Osho reveals devotion of Mahakashyap, founder of Zen,
Mahakashyap was a real disciple of Gautam the Buddha,
Buddha worked on him to make him a living Master himself,
Buddha needed living masters like Mahakashyap to spread his work!
Osho says a living master is a must in a true religion
whether it be zen or Upanishad.
And all living master work very hard on their real disciples,
to make them living mystics and living masters,
so that these disciple-master can spread their work!
Osho says without a living master
everything else is reduced to just spiritual entertainment,
and spiritual entertainment is a money minting business!
So when phony disciples of Osho Resort Pune and elsewhere,
are saying that Osho was against devotion (for Zen),
and saying Osho was against living masters and mystics in future,
It is their cunningness to misinterpret Osho on Zen,
to ban the real disciples (living mystics and living masters) full of devotion,
to ban the true religion which will have devotion,
they are just running their spiritual entertainment business,
they are just making money out of new disciples
they are betraying their master Osho,
they are exploiting the new disciples of their master Osho!
BELOVED OSHO,
MANY OF YOUR SANNYASINS WERE HAPPY TO HEAR FROM YOU
THAT YOU ARE OUR FRIEND,
BUT IT WAS A GREAT SHOCK FOR ME.
MY BELOVED MASTER,
WILL YOU SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THE MASTER-DISCIPLE RELATIONSHIP?
It is a little complex.
You will have to be very attentive to understand it.
The master can say, ”I am your friend.”
The disciple cannot say it.
The disciple will say, ”No, you are my master.”
But there are people who are disciples unwillingly,
they would rather be masters.
In fact, they have accepted being disciples as a bridge,
so that one day they can become masters – but their goal is to be a master.
So when I declared that I am your friend,
these people who were unwillingly disciples were immensely happy,
and the real disciples were shocked.
Nirvano came crying to me, ”No, Osho, don’t say such things.
I cannot conceive myself as being your friend.
Just to be your disciple is too much.”
And this was happening to many – the authentic disciples were shocked.
The phony disciples enjoyed it very much;
in fact they wanted it,
they were waiting for it.
If I had said to them, ”I am your disciple, you are the master,”
they would have rejoiced even more.
That’s what they really want.
Because to be a disciple means to drop your ego,
and it is the most difficult thing.
So people at the most hide it.
Instead of dropping, they simply hide it;
and whenever there is a chance it comes up again.
If the master says, ”I am holier than you” he is not a master.
He is still in the same ego trip which you are in.
He is a politician, not a religious man.
A religious man cannot conceive himself as holier or higher.
The religious man has simply disappeared;
there is nothing but pure emptiness.
It cannot be compared.
The real master can only say, ”I am your friend – just to hold your hand, to pull you
out of your darkness, to bring you on the path.”
The real disciple, even though he becomes enlightened, remains a disciple.
It is said about Mahakashyap,
the first patriarch of the great tradition of Zen Buddhism….
He was a disciple of Gautam Buddha,
and when he became enlightened Buddha sent him to wander,
to go to those who are thirsty, who are in need – ”Spread the word, share what you have gained.”
Mahakashyap said, ”You tricked me.
If you had said it before,
that after enlightenment I would have to leave you,
I would have left enlightenment!
Because enlightenment is my nature;
I can attain it any time I want.
But this is your last life,
and I will not find these feet again.
For enlightenment the whole eternity is there,
but once you disappear then there is no way to find you.
Where am I going to see you, to hear you, to touch you?
You tricked me badly.”
Gautam Buddha said, ”But I have to do it.
I cannot reach every thirsty person.
You are my hands,
you are my eyes.
Now you are my being.
Go – I will be with you.”
Mahakashyap said, ”With one condition:
that you will not die without me.
I have to be present.
Secondly,
I have to be kept informed of which direction you are moving in
so that every day I can bow down in that direction.
Although you will be far away – I will not be able to see you –
perhaps you may be able to see me.
And it does not matter whether I see you or not;
what matters is that you have not forgotten me.
It does not matter whether you are in my eyes or not;
what matters is that I am in your eyes.
Give me these two promises and I will go.”
Buddha said, ”You are asking strange things,
because it will be difficult to keep you completely informed
every day of where I am, where I am going.
Secondly, about death –
to promise you that I will die only when you are present,
I will have to make certain arrangements with death too –
that death has to wait.
You are putting me in a strange business!
I have never asked anybody anything,
and now you are forcing me to ask death,
‘Wait a little, let Mahakashyap come.’”
But Mahakashyap was very adamant.
He said, ”Then I am not going.”
He went, because Buddha promised him; but it was a trouble.
Every day he had to be informed of what direction Buddha was in.
And morning and evening he would bow down on the earth,
tears of joy in his eyes –
just dust in his hands,
but he would touch it as if he were touching the feet of Buddha.
And people would say to him,
”Mahakashyap, you yourself are now a master.
It doesn’t seem right for you to behave like a disciple.”
Mahakashyap’s answer was,
”As long as Gautam Buddha is alive I cannot be the master,
I can only be the disciple.
Because to be disciple is so beautiful;
under the shade of the master it is so cool,
it is so protected.
When Buddha dies, of course I will be a master –
under the hot sun, there will no longer be any shade over me.
”Don’t prevent me, and don’t ask this question again and again –
because you don’t understand that
being a disciple is not in any way less than being a master.
The whole question is of being total.
If you are totally a disciple,
you have all the glories and all the blessings and all the benediction
that a master has;
there is no difference at all.
It is a question of totality.
And how can I forget even for a single moment
my gratitude to this man Gautam the Buddha,
without whom I would have been still groping in the dark.
He came into my life as a song, as a dance, as a light.
He transformed me,
he gave me a new birth,
he made me eternal.”
And the day Gautam Buddha died,
the first thing was to call Mahakashyap.
He told his disciple, Ananda,
”Find Mahakashyap immediately,
because I don’t want to ask death –
I have never asked anybody.
But this Mahakashyap…
if he does not come before the sunrise tomorrow
I will have to ask death to wait.”
Many followers rushed in all directions to find Mahakashyap.
He was found, he came in the right time.
And Buddha smiled and he said,
”I knew it, that you would not let me down,
that you would not force me to ask death to wait.
Now death can come. Mahakashyap has come.”
Buddha died in Mahakashyap’s lap;
his head was in Mahakashyap’s lap.
That was a rare phenomenon,
because Buddha had ten thousand disciples present at that moment.
Amongst those ten thousand at least one hundred were enlightened.
Why was Mahakashyap chosen?
The question went around,
”Why has Mahakashyap been chosen?”
Sariputta,
another enlightened disciple of Gautam Buddha, said,
”He is the only one who has become a master but has not left his discipleship.
The remaining ninety-nine have become masters and forgotten about discipleship.
He is richer;
he is a disciple
and he is a master.
He has much more than anybody else present here.”
And it is not surprising that
Mahakashyap became the source of one of the greatest traditions,
which is still alive –
Zen,
which has given to the world more enlightened people than anything else!
Bodh,
you are firing bricks at a false target. There is no commune, and except for a short time, and actually under Sheela, (and that’s a contradiction for you), there really never was.. … … I dont think that is a controversial statement – except under Sheela sannyasins never did all the work. But any work or any situation can be converted to meditation, and here we missed.
It is often not said but Mandela changed himself in that prison for 27 years, just doing his daily exercises, and with his intellectual companionship and reading.
See pictures of him before prison, he was simply another confrontational and very angry young man. Where did he garner such qualities, such as forgiveness and wisdom…. strange paradox, but in the prison of his enemies.
I don’t think any member of commune management is diverting the funds into their private companies. I also strongly believe that they challenge if any one tries to misuse/exploit Osho’s name or his literature on the internet.
But, it does seem like planets are not in good alignment for them? I don’t know what it is, but some major shift seems to be imminent.
I agree. But I myself do not see any shift in power.
Yes, the Indians and Sw Arun seem to be building up a bit of head of steam. I am afraid my respect for them has fallen. It seems to be a matter of the ‘Indian spiritual ego’….they assume they know better than everyone else. I expect it will all come to nothing. It is fortunate that Osho found some smart tough guys to look after his heritage.
Excellent summation.
AJ , Iam quite sure this time , it is our choices that lead us to a state / non – state , of choicelessness !
People initiated by Osho´s school are collectively known under the brand name Sannyas. And here we have sannyasnews.
People initiated by Berry Long are known under what brand name?
SD; if you don´t know, then visit or create
http://www.berryverylong.com
Unless you’re attempting a slice of humour here, Shantam, his name isn’t Berry (or even Beery) at all! (Glasses can help in these cases, you know…Are yours in their case in this case? In that case, I suggest you take them out and use them…In case you get it wrong again…Or would you prefer to lose face – and seem a bit of a nut-case?).
Anyway, as I said, I hardly think you’d be in the slightest interested as there’s no comparable “brand name”, hype, commune, or related bullshine involved.
Better forget all about him and the other guy, you’re bound not to ‘get’ either of them (guaranteed). So, my advice: close the case!
PS: Merry Christmas, by the way!
I love religious atmosphere. Yesterday evening in nearby town during the late evening mass, I took 5 Euros from my pocket and put in a box. I know Church has more money than me, but it was for the atmosphere, which brought tears in my eyes.
When your city is passing through a drought like situation, water from nearby village must cost money.
So merry Christmas to one and all.
May we fight but not hate.
Happy Yuletide, one and all posters here, I love you.. .. … ..
I remember Yuletide’s in the old Pune one days, very beautiful they passed just like any other day, but those days sure were special, each and every one of them.
And so pleased I was to escape those ritual routine family events… .. my family was okay, but not sure at all whether it fitted with me at all. Love
Cor blimey guv’nor! Steady on!
You love Shantypants and Eggbantam (aka Cloneji) ?
That both melts my scroogetastic heart and scares me like the ghost of xmas past!
You must be enlightened! Can I score some darshan and sign up for your next workshop?
“Osho says without a living master
everything else is reduced to just spiritual entertainment,
and spiritual entertainment is a money minting business! ”
These are interesting lines?
May be someone or the writer can explain when “clinically” a living master is declared dead?
Earlier in this string Bodh Ekantram speaks like a guru, is he actually one speaking with a false name?
Who is he to pontificate on who is a phony disciple or not? That is solely between the Master and the disciple, it is a private thing.
Another thing, please dont quote Osho so lengthily, for almost everything Osho said you will find an opposite if you look carefully, so quoting Osho can never offer an argument.
Osho himself made a few mistakes, for example Sheela was never a disciple. She fell asleep on a daily basis when she got herself to lecture and was totally uninterested in meditation.. … . she called Osho “that old gasbag”. And all this before she ascended the throne of power.
I dont think Bodh has read some prevous posts, including ones from me. I never for example viewed Osho as a “friend”, and suspect no-one here did.
Osho himself had guides and teachers, but he was never “devoted” to any of them, though he much appreciated them. So what is so different. He himself by your own lights gained the “final realisation” by following his own paths, and in a very undevotional way.
The Mahakashyaps of this world are really great, and gained their ‘final realisation’ through devotion, and so are the Osho’s of this world who gained their “final realisation” along non devotional paths.
Remember P, those who can do, those who (e)kant-am teach.
Ekantam/cloneji is a plonker, to use the correct technical term.
And yes Osho was at times a gasbag, and I regularly dropped off listening to him go on and on about some mythical zen master, on a large video screen that is. He got more soporific as he got older (or took more nitrous and valium, not sure which).
“Final Realisation” is the enlightened guru bollocks that ought to really by now be consigned to history. It’s all spin and myth-making.
The more identified with a “final realisation” they are, the more uh-oh their unconscious stuff gets to act out.
I think it’s been obvious for some time now that Ekantam is being used as a mouthpiece by Swami R, directly, ie Swami R doing the writing, and/or indirectly, Ekantam parroting his mentor’s views, probably even submitting them to him for prior approval!
And we’re supposed to be taken in by such blatant deviousness?! Do they truly believe we’re a bunch of morons, incapable of seeing through such garbage?
I don’t think either of these two are particularly bright. Notwithstanding ‘realisation(s)’ or claimed medical expertise, at some level they’re both complete fools.
Brian, Eckantam. Shantam.
Messiah complexes.
If you ignore them that feeds the complex.
If you challenge them that feeds the complex.
If you submit to them that feeds the complex.
My God,
what a triple bind.
Any lateral thinking to avoid all three?!
I wish. Watch and wait.
Failed Messiah complexes.
Well we know how that ends.
New Poona guards take resort banning to next level for Brian & co…
http://cdn.denofgeek.us/sites/denofgeekus/files/life_of_brian.png
Brian Shantam Eckantam, that’s BSE or mad cow disease I’m afraid, and it’s fatal.
In other words, it’s complex.
To Dom:
But I suspect you meditated one way or the other, maybe not so obviously, nearly every day of your sannyas life!
Forget about the Master, you applied yourself. Some of those so-called disciples certainly did not.
Parmartha, ok. I get the point why.
about what?
Parmartha, do you see any shift in Power in North Korea or in Syria?
It should be a matter of shame, utter shame when people involved cannot see any shift in power in their organisations, religions, cults resorts, countries etc. etc.
In India, PM will change in 6 months. In USA, in two or three years time, shift in power happen too.
Any way, my rough idea is till the end of 2014, unwillingly Resort bosses will accept shift in power is unavoidable.
This is a temporal organisation Shantam, that you seem to want to take over. However it isn’t a nation state and your comparisons are just so much wonky thinking.
I remain unconvinced that anyone can do any better than the present incumbents, and they were left in charge by Osho, and knew him more intimately than anyone of the pretenders.
Anyway Shantam, if we are both still alive next Yuletide day, then please accept my gentleman’s bet that things will be as they were, and we can both agree to write here to gently tease the other that our prediction was wrong.
Heres another prediction.
Well, known fact.
Shantam will never take over running the ashram
PM but History proves, most often especially the most intimate are the traitor. If the facts do not come on the table, it leaves lots of space for speculations.
I mean also Jackson’s Doctor is Freemason…
http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.de/2011/10/michael-jacksons-doctor-conrad-murrays.html
what makes such a story conspirative… may be in evenings our Authorities wearing that same collar.
I mean, I asked why all of you seem so irritated about Indian conditioning, then when I looked this discussion again Ekatam was just right back here…it was not really personally for you Parmartha, to be precise.
In Sheela’s case one learning for many was to speak up against authority and question their decisions. Now it seems (to personally for me) also to know to be aware how NOT “speak up”. So I hope I will not for example make all kinds of personal nuisance remarks behind somebody’s back. Of course it’s more boring that way.
However, many feel that some shift is happening. Me too, let’s see which direction. In?
Shantam, do you know the Spike lee movie “Do the Right Thing”?
How about scriptwriting an Indian version of it?
Are people deaf and dumb in their intellectual capacities and memory storage? Or they are so dazed by the state media run propaganda.
Let me write it thousandth time, Osho has not left any successor but group of twenty people; not to decide about the spiritual matters but take care of the day to day functioning.
It is unprecedented in the history of Master disciple bonding, be it Zen, Buddhists, Sufi, Bhakti, Advaita or “church-ish”.
With time I will say it was a gentleman´s idea which have been proved unpractical and bit foolish.
My feeling is Osho relied too much on the devotion shown by people when in body. He has not visualised that people bowing their head in synchronicity will kick on each others head once He is absent for ever.
Only a very sick perverted and low mind worth to be in the psychiatrist couch can think about that, any kind of Shantam will take over running the resort. Surely it will be the heart and soul of the disciples which will operate through their 20 chosen representatives and ratio of the racial and country participation will be in the same proportions as in Osho´s times. (Yes..we have to accommodate Russians too)
It is a common disciples resolve that they won´t allow some chosen few pissing on the delicate hints left by the master.
Only a very sick perverted and low mind like Shantams, worth to be in the psychiatrist couch, can think about any kind of Shantam take over running the resort.
No-Thought for the Day ®
Man needs exposures on every point wherever politics has entered in ?
and it has entered everywhere, in every relationship.
It has contaminated the whole life of man and it is contaminating continuously.
No thought of the day at osho .com is my start of the internet day. And in a way, Sannyasnews has become Osho´s disciples only media where inner politics is discussed.
Those who think politics is a game of lower mind, please show your equal interest in other two three famous sannyas portals or better is to sit at the feet of some living master. There one does not need to think, write or communicate anything.
Shantam, I think politics, ie ‘sannyas politics’, has become so very important in your mind because it’s really all very much on a similar ‘outer’ level to what seems to be your version of ‘the spiritual life’, ie focused largely on externals, on the collective, rather than on your own ‘internality’.
Politics being fundamentally about power, it also fits that you, a man with little or no power to speak of in conventional terms, eg no ‘career’, an Asian immigrant in the West with little stake in your adopted country, are very much drawn to this issue of temporal power struggle in the Poona ashram. Because the fact is, it makes you feel like ‘someone’, doesn’t it?
You can righteously argue, try to squirm your way out of this, to me, blindingly obvious proposition, but that would only indicate you yourself see nothing more than the ripples on your surface, basically little more than ‘personality stuff’.
Politics attracts the mediocre – didn’t Osho continuously repeat such a view? Why then are you so content with this mediocrity of being?
An interesting spot of understanding about harmony between spiritual and world of matter. About what medium we express our spiritual inspiration into matter? Seems not optimal till now.
I do agree with Shantam that Osho’s wide enough inner circle is needed. I just cannot see one person or group of people dependent on each other’s to be the only ones to decide over Osho’s words. It was not Osho’s guidance. And how it’s now, it does not seem how it was supposed to be. This issue we should be able to interact and communicate.
This is personal, because at the moment for example I do not feel like visiting any of these places (pune, uta, nisarga, delhi, nepal miasto, Creek or any osho theraphy sub cults). Also, I do not feel like reading any of their editing versions of Osho. So, if many places and people who are interested in this “spreading the Osho’s words” in their way (books or meditations), I kind of at the moment feel like reading books published perhaps before -89. However, if they manage to become independent from each other’s and financially individually independent, that would be a shift. For me.
Truth is we don’t know what (mis)management are up to, though seems entirely possible it’s at least partly nefarious.
The problem lies in a vacuum of information and communication from the resort in general, in which people are likely to speculate the worst.
I was there a few years ago for a short stay in April. I remember bumping into someone I had known in the heyday of Poona 2, and we both looked at eachother with the same wordless expression of “WTF happened here?”
They called it zen, It seemed to me a ghost town with tumbleweed blowing through…
Certainly Indians (lets say indian males) seemed favoured as never before. I was paying double their entrance fee, however rich they were. There were banal discos every night, but obviously a good hunting ground for young indian turks.
I left the place feeling that the dream was over. I also had to factor in, that Poona and Koregaon Park had changed beyond recognition and no longer the cosy affordable sannyas enclave it once was.
So I was done. The retirement home gone.
I suspect whoever runs it, it will never return to it’s former bustling and creative heydays, and remain a short-stay place for primarily newbies and a long-stay for hard-core fans of the regime and well-off indians.
Times have changed too.
There’s more competition, as unique as Osho was, and most of it is homegrown.
There are literally 100′s if not 1000′s of living teachers of ‘awakening’ (that’s the new word in case you’re not up to speed) these days, and it’s all accessible on the internet.
They all have their lovers and haters, and with all the discussion forums going on, people ought to be more discerning about sprituality in general.
Personally I think most of it is bollocks.
It’s the same old snakepit of narcissistic theatre feeding off people’s money, adulation and projections.
But for sannyasins still buying into the old guru superdaddy/mommy paradigm, and mythical enlightenment jackpot, osho just got swopped for the next devotional mood making narcotic.
But even without that people want the certainty of being told what to think and believe (it’s so much easier)… and to belong and suck on a big tit, however adulterated the milk.
Look at Shantam all he wants is the ‘booby’ prize.
Dominic, it is a ghost town and much worse than you can ever imagine. My friend is there now (doing actually something else in Puna, but visited the resort) and there is nobody. I looked in face book and they do not have any pictures of people (how would they since there aro not any), only some pictures that are from more than a year ago (I happen to know people in those pictures)..Perhaps their intention is to be a kind of publishing house…and they will sell the place.
A ghost town yes… though even the spirits are only to be found in a bottle apparently…
The real estate in Poona would be the equivalent of selling that acreage in Mayfair or Manhattan in the west.
This is about your expectations Fresch.
Who says the ashram should be as you think it should be?
‘And you are becoming responsible, but responsibility means the ability to respond. It is not a duty that has to be fulfilled in the ordinary sense. It is a responsiveness, a sensitivity. But the
more sensitive you become, the more you will find that many people think that you are becoming irresponsible – and you have to accept that – because their interests, their investments will not be
satisfied. Many times you will not fulfill their expectations, but nobody is here to fulfill anybody else’s expectations.’
Osho.
Chapter 11.
A Rose is a Rose is Rose.
Personally like others here, I’m not so attached to poona anymore, though feel it’s a shame it’s gone to the dogs (my interpretation) so quickly. Seems to me a failure to empathise, not to see it still has meaning for some like Freschie.
If Ibiza dropped into the ocean I wouldn’t be that bothered, but I’m sure Lokeshji might be a little put out. Hopefully I’d empathize rather than belittling his ‘pathetic’ expectations and shock that it happened.
Then I’d lay into him, with “Get over it swami… Just let go… Osho said blah blah blah…”
Just a friendly ‘boxing’ day example
‘If the sun refuse to shine,
I don’t mind, I don’t mind,
If the mountains fell in the sea,
let it be, it ain’t me.
Alright, ‘cos I got my own world to look through,
And I ain’t gonna copy you.’
Jimi Hendrix
My bad lokesh. Haven’t yet mastered the wish-I-hadn’t-said-that delete post function.
A toast to your health sir!
I,m here (and now).There are certainly fewer people than last year.
Less people ‘hanging out’ . Its all quiet on the eastern ‘front’ (although,things arent always what they seem!.)
So, if they manage to get 5 western (or Russian) woman and 50 Indian men trying to get” free Rajneesh one night stand sex” for new year party. That is just embarrassing in so many ways.
Arpana, it’s true, one of my worst trips is to react, not respond.
In spite of my personal hardships and inability to communicate, all this can be osho’s firecrackers or what ever change (that I do not want), but the fact seems that pune really is empty. And the situation looks like it will be empty forever like woodlands and ranch.. (so, even that can be for something new) When I was there, not so long ago, I felt kind of deep sadness like ever before and still tried to avoid that feeling.. Can be separation pain, and I do not want to blame somebody else for that.
But also, like dominic said transparency would be healthy. Also this (copyright and (mis?) management) involves so many other issues than if some individual (like my self) likes it or not.. but what is your standpoint here?
Don’t be down on yourself Fresch.
You come across as honest and reflective.
Glad you contribute here.
Certainly wasn’t trying to give you a hard time.
Just making a point I knew you were big enough to
take as such.
The Resort, Poona, Osho’s will…gimme a break, Jimmy. These subjects don’t even cause a bleep on my interest meter.
I enjoy SN because it can be fun. Of late I find most of the threads boring. This current one is a good example. Shantam seems to get into such uninspiring topics and the regulars chug along and add a bit of humour etc. Surely some of you can come up with a topic that might actually provoke an interesting debate. When I see a thread begining with Commune Mismanagement? I get a feeling like a baloon who just sat on a tack.
Thats bullshit.You constantly contribute on SN.No interest my arse…ha ha .Love.
You and Shakti share your life with a donkey Atmo
F*****g ace.
Arpana, I “go down to my self” to save my back; I am not perfect (far from it) and I am not interested to be any role model, but to have a right to express my self anyway. Dominic I did suggest something like that for Lokesh to do it in ibiza together with some other people some years ago. He seems to be stuck with this couple swimming in the see and his own dj career, not risking it any more with sanyas nutcases.:)
Dominic, i mean for lokesh to do something with meditation in ibiza.. Hahhaa.. It’s just fanny how over positive i am about people.
Fresch, there are plenty of sannyasins doing meditation projects on Ibiza. I’d go so far a to say that Ibiza is close to becoming the meditation capital of Europe. It is also beoming increasingly expensive. The problem is finding locations. A five bedroom house is up for rent about half a kilometre away from my home. The owners want 8000 euros a month.
The way I see it there is no point in complaining about somethig unless willing to do something to better it. I’m off into my cave to see what I can come up with. Something along the lines of Osho: The Man, The Myth and his Sannyasins.
A good idea senor, would be a breath of fresh air!
Some titles I’m working on…
-Write more good and fanny inglisch
-What would osho say? for Dummies
-The idiots guide to Cloning: Indian subcontinent.
-My life in Orange. A dysfunksional journey, before during and after.
-The Disciple who sat at the computer complaining and playing with himself.
-You Saturn Uranus: Chuddie Charts, Horrorscopes & Indian sexual Asstrology
-From Boobs to Manboobs, the Path of No Love
-White girls “radiate grace and glamour”. Jump on them!
-Zen and now. Meditation, not what it used to be.
-Zen of avoiding work.
Shantam Prem!
Here is Osho hitting at phony disciples
who have stopped reading and listening osho,
who have stopped long ago,
Here osho is saying how real disciples
listen to Osho!
BELOVED OSHO,
THE MASTER SPEAKS, AND THE DISCIPLES LISTEN.
WHAT IS IT THAT HAPPENS, AND REMAINS UNSAID?
Yoga Chinmaya, the master speaks, the disciple listens –
yet there is much which the master does not speak,
and the disciple listens.
In fact, that is the whole secret of disciplehood.
If you only listen to that which is said, you are a student.
You listen to the words, you miss the wordless.
The moment you start listening to the wordless,
you are initiated into disciplehood.
The master is speaking.
Naturally he has to use words,
but he is also leaving gaps in between.
He is also using wordlessness.
He is saying something,
and he is also meaning something
which cannot be said –
but it can be heard.
If the disciple is silent,
he will hear the words and he will also hear the wordlessness;
he will hear what is being said,
and he will hear also what is not being said and yet is transferred.
You are asking what it is.
It is the presence of the master,
it is his heart.
It is his heartbeat,
it is his very being.
Words are just toys that he plays with to keep you engaged,
but the real happening is that he wants to have a communion with your being.
And if you are silent, just a listening, that communion happens.
It is the master’s enlightenment, his light, his delight –
it is his treasure that he wants to share.
Of all the great masters in the past,
only Mahavira has recognized the beauty of hearing.
That is his great contribution.
The world knows very little about Mahavira –
it needs to know much more about him.
Unfortunately, he was a contemporary of Gautam the Buddha,
and because Gautam the Buddha was so charismatic
and his impact was so great,
Mahavira has fallen into the shadow.
But Mahavira has his own contribution.
He was not so charismatic a personality;
that’s why his influence has remained very limited.
Even today, after twenty-five centuries,
there are not more than three and a half million Jainas.
If he had converted a single couple
– particularly Indian – in twenty-five centuries
they would have created three and a half million people without any difficulty.
He was a totally different kind of man, unique in his own way.
Because his impact on the people was not great,
his contributions have not received the praise from the world that they deserve.
One of his great contributions was the value of hearing.
He said that there are two ways to reach to the ultimate:
one is the way of the shravaka,
and the other of the sadhu.
Shravaka means one who knows how to listen,
and sadhu means one who disciplines himself in austerities.
The path of the sadhu is long, tedious.
The path of the shravaka, the listener,
is simple,
a shortcut –
all that is needed is that
he should not only hear,
he should listen.
Hearing is simple: because you have ears, you can hear.
Why are there two words, ‘hearing’ and ‘listening’? – one is enough.
No, it is not enough.
Hearing is possible for everybody;
listening is possible only for those who are silent.
You can hear with your mind chattering inside; it will not be listening.
But if your mind is silent, calm and quiet,
everything is still within you and the master’s word reaches you,
it brings with it something more –
something that is not in the word but around it –
the wordlessness.
The word is coming from the very heart of the master.
It is not coming from his head,
it is coming from his very being;
and if you are open and available,
it will reach your being.
This bridging,
this communion is what transpires
between the master and the disciple.
THE OSHO UPANISHAD
CHAPTER 18. DO NOT COME DOWN GO HIGHER
‘That’s why you go on living without knowing yourself. And how can one live without knowing oneself? And you go on projecting things on others which have nothing to do with others; they may be just hidden inside you. But you project them on others. Somebody looks like an egoist to you — you may be the egoist, and it is you projecting. Somebody looks very angry. The anger may be inside you and the other is just like a screen — it is you projecting.’
Osho.
Ancient Music in the Pines
Chapter #5
Chapter title: The Ultimate Secrets of Swordsmanship
Real disciples neither listen or not listen to Osho, they are simply in a transmission with him beyond words. That is a private space, and cannot be defined and cannot be commented on in another. To condemn others as phoney is a false preoccupation, all that matters is your own growth. Judging others, etc you are already on the wrong path and a long way from a proper discipleship.
Have just recalled a moment I heard on the radio last year.
A famous economist, on his 80Th. birthday said,
by the end of his first his term studying economics at Oxford University, at the age of nineteen, he knew the answer to the ten economic issues that drive economies, and now, after a lifetimes study, he didnt know the answer to any of them
I wonder why Ekantam/Swami R never mentions that, in his last two years, Osho often made a point of advising, “Be a Light unto Yourself”, the very same injunction that Buddha left his disciples in his own final words, it is said.
One doesn’t need to be a fully qualified ‘spiritual detective’ to conclude that, aware his time here was running out, he was consciously preparing his people for life without his physical presence.
In other words, he was helping us become healthily spiritually self-reliant, rather than over-dependent upon any self-made images of a dead Master, with all the pitfalls of sentimentality and personal imagination, personal preference, that are involved in that perilous situation.
If the ‘devotee fundamentalists’ are truly serious about taking him word-for-word, then I strongly suggest they examine this significant aspect of Osho’s final days and meditate on it at some length, rather than instantly indulging themselves in any negative, ‘knee-jerk’ reactions (or even premature ejaculations). (Some hope, eh?!).
They don’t strike me as particularly literate.
They will remember anything that fits their preconceived notions, but don’t have any ability to do more than that. That’s the fundamentalist mind set.
Doubt they have reached the stage of understanding how Osho contradicts himself yet.
‘You cannot change the mind of a fundamentalist. And to me, the fundamentalist is equivalent to the madman. A reasonable man, an intelligent man, is never fundamentalist. He is always ready and available to change anything if he can find a better argument, a better idea, a better solution. He is flexible, he is not adamant and stubborn. He is ready to bend, to change, to transform.
I want you never to be a fundamentalist. Always remain vulnerable. To be vulnerable to existence is the most beautiful experience.’
Osho.
The Buddha: The Emptiness of the Heart
Chapter #6
Chapter title: To take up a koan
Mind you closet fundamentalists are the worse.
So many of Oshos people are so serious about not being serious.
Arpana, how about your own words..
On account of how is so much easier to say it this way,
and in this instance, using such a quote seems an appropriate
way to respond to the would be messiah.
The clone of The Clone just isn’t interested in a discussion, for quite a while now he’s simply degenerated into the SN mouthpiece of The Clone himself (that’s Swami R, for the uninitiated, btw). He’s churning out such transparent ‘spiritual propaganda’ that frankly I wonder how long he’s going to be allowed to use this place.
‘Interesting’ that at times he likes to make great play of the supreme importance of a living Master, when the Master he’s always quoting is Osho, who’s been ‘away’ now for nearly 24 years…
Well, one doesn’t need to be a detective to figure out where this is leading…
All par for the political course, certainly so for the unedifying world of ‘spiritual politics’.
Your sporting metaphors rock.
Hows about a rugby metaphor.
Credit to Anubodh for that last one, Arpana, the best yet, I reckon.
Have tried, but can’t manage anything from the world of rugby, I’m afraid.
Although, come to think of it, I guess Shantam’s attempting to run with the ball, with his eyes on the faraway try-line, ambitious for ‘international honours’, or at least some recognition from ‘the selectors’, getting some support from his dodgy manager (shortly due in Court for fraud, of course), but precious little otherwise – but he keeps getting tackled, doesn’t he, keeps getting his shorts practically ripped to shreds…In fact, the game’s degenerated into a perpetual ruck and maul!
You know what, I believe he actually gets off on the controlled violence of this sort of game, loves it in fact. Will he ever score (anywhere, with anyone)? The pundits are saying “no chance” – but he just ploughs on regardless, a rather foolish, rather lonely gentleman playing the game of a spiritually half-educated hooligan, aka the game of his life!
Excellent.
(Individuals with Messiah complexes usually have a martyr complex as well. That’s shanty pants. Brian and Iccy.)
The Golfing Nun
A nun is sitting with her Mother Superior chatting. “I used some horrible language this week and feel absolutely terrible about it.”
“When did you use this awful language?” asks the elder.
“Well, I was golfing and hit an incredible drive that looked like it was going to go over 280 yards, but it struck a phone line that is hanging over the fairway and fell straight down to the ground after going only about 100 yards.”
“Is that when you swore?”
“No, Mother,” says the nun. “After that, a squirrel ran out of the bushes and grabbed my ball in its mouth and began to run away.”
“Is THAT when you swore?” asks the Mother Superior again.
“Well, no.” says the nun. “You see, as the squirrel was running, an eagle came down out of the sky, grabbed the squirrel in his talons and began to fly away!”
“Is THAT when you swore?” asks the amazed elder nun.
“No, not yet. As the eagle carried the squirrel away in its claws, it flew near the green and the squirrel dropped my ball.”
“Did you swear THEN?” asked Mother Superior, becoming impatient.
“No, because the ball fell on a big rock, bounced over the sand trap, rolled onto the green, and stopped about six inches from the hole.”
The two nuns were silent for a moment.
Then Mother Superior sighed and asked, “You missed the fucking putt, didn’t you?”
Pls all of you, use your own words and own experience. It’s just more interesting.
But easier for lazy oshobots to just copy and paste.
As if existence gave you a unique brain and take on the world and you simply refused to use it.
“Oh no please don’t make me think and express myself. It’s….. so….. hard…”
For you Shanty pants.
‘My way has been described as that of the heart, but it is not true. The heart will give you all kinds of imaginings, hallucinations, illusions, sweet dreams — but it cannot give you the truth. The truth is behind both; it is in your consciousness, which is neither head nor heart. Just because the consciousness is separate from both, it can use both in harmony. The head is dangerous in certain fields, because it has eyes but it has no legs — it is crippled.
The heart can function in certain dimensions. It has no eyes but it has legs; it is blind but it can move tremendously, with great speed — of course, not knowing where it is going. It is not just a coincidence that in all the languages of the world love is called blind. It is not love that is blind, it is the heart that has no eyes. As your meditation becomes deeper, as your identification with the head and the heart starts falling, you find yourself becoming a triangle. And your reality is in the third force in you: the consciousness. Consciousness can manage very easily, because the heart and the head both belong to it.’
Osho.
From the False to the Truth
Chapter #31
Chapter title: No religions, no nations, no governments
No religions, no nations, no governments…
But my foundation, my resort, my management team…
Bravo!
People only shame their master by quoting decades old words, which have nothing to do with the reality of the situation.
It will be a great achievement of human evolution when people don´t offer tooth pick when one needs an ear bud!
But shanty pants, life is so rich and full
and enjoyable when one is not a proper disciple.
I mean, why would anyone choose to be a whiny misery.,
always sulking like a nine year old because you cant
have your own way.
No one here will ever run the ashram.
Guess what poppy pants, nobody here,
apart from you, wants to.
Shantam only shames his master by living on centuries old words, which have nothing to do with the reality of the situation.
Hallo Oshonews,
Please add responses to your articles.
Please give the space to those non political 100% spiritual beings who are feeling suffocated in discussions much below their level.
And here I can even recommend one of Puna one buddy Lokesh whose prose is much more classy than many of the Delhi based Swamis. Please invite him to write on Osho´s Essence!
Love
Shantam
PS- Once in a week I open oshonews for your top of the list column, Voyages. It is hearting to see some site remembering those citizens of the earth who joined Osho and contributed in the empire building!
” As your meditation becomes deeper, as your identification with the head and the heart starts falling, you find yourself becoming a triangle. And your reality is in the third force in you: the consciousness. Consciousness can manage very easily, because the heart and the head both belong to it.’
In hindsight, above kind of words and collective meditation becoming the central point of Osho´s final discourses will be the guiding spirit at least for Osho´s work. Osho has emphasised clearly that all the decisions will be taken after meditating at Samadhi.
For few years it was like this but then it seems chairman and vice chairman felt, decisions can be taken easily with Johnny walker whisky!
You mean if they meditated,
or did what you think is meditation,
they would be clones of you.
just an update , these days they have changed their brand to a local one , its Mcdowell’s Signature Whisky !
Arpana, what is your own point in this ( in spite of shantam or osho)?
What post are you referring to?
You say anything and new priestly mind will find the relevant paragraph. Osho priests will beat all other priests. So many Bibles!
One quality will remain the same in priests of all kinds.
High priests ass will always enthral them as taste of Lindt Choclate!
Samadhi is, by all means, ”the flowers”, but it becomes meaningless if you have to meditate in samadhi weather to take garbage bin out. Shantam, your information about those old OIF practices was interesting and makes me understand a bit more why they wanted to cool down with all religious stuff there. And meditation is everybody’s individual process. Any way also, when I have been to Poona I always saw OIF people to go for evening meditation, always, every evening. Shantam, you could also invite friends to meditate to your home, many people do so. We organize meditations together at a yoga place, easy and fun. Lokesh, I could easily see you adding a special flavour as dj at Ibiza meditation events..Atmo, can you be our correspondent in pune and inform how things evolve there?
Ha Ha Ha!
The phony disciples on SN!
How they get irritated by
words of Osho!
They are desperately praying
that words of Osho
should not be allowed on SN!
Editors and Moderators of SN
please have mercy on your contributors (phony disciples)
do not allow words of Osho
just stop it
why you go on publishing my post
God
forgive me for i do not know what i am doing
posting dirty words of Osho
on sacred SN!
Ha Ha Ha!
Force field up, Cling-on vessel sighted!
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
“Star Trekkin’”
by The Firm (Lister/John O’Connor)
Bark (UK) single #TREK 1, 5/87 (4:14) on Disc Two Track 2, Dr. Demento 20th Anniversary Collection Rhino compilation #R2 70743, 1991. Reference material from liner notes by Dr. Demento (Barry Hansen), lyrics transcribed by Robert Muratore.
Star Trekkin’ across the universe,
On the Starship Enterprise under Captain Kirk.
Star Trekkin’ across the universe,
Only going forward ’cause we can’t find reverse.
Lt. Uhura, report.
There’s Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow;
there’s Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, Jim.
Analysis, Mr. Spock.
It’s life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it;
it’s life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, Captain.
There’s Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow;
there’s Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, Jim.
Star Trekkin’ across the universe,
On the Starship Enterprise under Captain Kirk.
Star Trekkin’ across the universe,
Only going forward, still can’t find reverse.
Medical update, Dr. McCoy.
It’s worse than that, he’s dead, Jim, dead, Jim, dead, Jim;
it’s worse than that, he’s dead, Jim, dead, Jim, dead.
It’s life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it;
it’s life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, Captain.
There’s Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow;
there’s Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, Jim.
Starship Captain, James T. Kirk:
Ah! We come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, shoot to kill;
we come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, men.
It’s worse than that, he’s dead, Jim, dead, Jim, dead, Jim;
it’s worse than that, he’s dead, Jim, dead, Jim, dead.
Well, it’s life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it;
it’s life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, Captain.
There’s Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow;
there’s Klingons on the starboard bow, scrape ‘em off, Jim.
Star Trekkin’ across the universe,
On the Starship Enterprise under Captain Kirk.
Star Trekkin’ across the universe,
Only going forward, and things are getting worse!
Engineer, Mr. Scott:
Ye cannot change the laws of physics, laws of physics, laws of physics;
ye cannot cahnge the laws of physics, laws of physics, Jim.
Ah! We come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, shoot to kill;
we come in peace, shoot to kill; Scotty, beam me up!
It’s worse than that, he’s dead, Jim, dead, Jim, dead, Jim;
it’s worse than that, he’s dead, Jim, dead, Jim, dead.
Well, it’s life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it;
it’s life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, Captain.
There’s Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow;
there’s Klingons on the starboard bow, better calm down!
Ye cannot change the script Jim.
Och, #!*& Jimmy.
It’s worse than that, it’s physics, Jim.
Bridge to engine room, warp factor 9.
Och, if I give it any more she’ll blow, Cap’n!
Star Trekkin’ across the universe,
On the Starship Enterprise under Captain Kirk.
Star Trekkin’ across the universe,
Only going forward ’cause we can’t find reverse.
Star Trekkin’ across the universe,
On the Starship Enterprise under Captain Kirk.
Star Trekkin’ across the universe,
Only going forward, still can’t find reverse.
In response to ‘Ekantam’s’ post of 10.02am today…
There we have it, The Unholy Trinity, the Three-in-One:
DRage (Father), Ekantam (Son) and a little touch of the Holy Spit-it-out himself, Swami R – such luvverly, oh-so-spiritual jubberly!
Talk about seeing what you want to see, talk about the Belief-Bias Effect..
Talk about knee-jerk reactions, talk about premature ejaculations (Shantam’s just woken up!)…
Eyes have they,
Yet
They do not
See!
Game’s up, chaps, the con is over. Prepare for a visit from the Fraud Squad!
PS: Can’t you lot read? This place doesn’t accept extremely long Osho quotes, except in single doses. Guidelines are for you as well as everyone else, even though you’re so very ‘special’.
And, in case this one’s been ‘lost’…
I wonder why Ekantam/Swami R never mentions that, in his last two years, Osho often made a point of advising, “Be a Light unto Yourself”, the very same injunction that Buddha left his disciples in his own final words, it is said.
One doesn’t need to be a fully qualified ‘spiritual detective’ to conclude that, aware his time here was running out, he was consciously preparing his people for life without his physical presence.
In other words, he was helping us become healthily spiritually self-reliant, rather than over-dependent upon any self-made images of a dead Master, with all the pitfalls of sentimentality and personal imagination, personal preference, that are involved in that perilous situation.
If the ‘devotee fundamentalists’ are truly serious about taking him word-for-word, then I strongly suggest they examine this significant aspect of Osho’s final days and meditate on it at some length, rather than instantly indulging themselves in any negative, ‘knee-jerk’ reactions (or even premature ejaculations). (Some hope, eh?!).
Alokjohn says
“Yes, the Indians and Sw Arun seem to be building up a bit of head of steam. I am afraid my respect for them has fallen. It seems to be a matter of the ‘Indian spiritual ego’….they assume they know better than everyone else. I expect it will all come to nothing.
Why don’t you take it as a healthy competition. A modest but happening place vs five star resort but deserted.
Alokjohn says “It is fortunate that Osho found some smart tough guys to look after his heritage.”
Problem is select few sons get all the heritage and kick out the rest. Is that what you mean by tough?
“Is that what you mean by tough?”
Dr Amrito is over 70. Jayesh is not young. It cannot be much fun to be constantly fighting law suits. I would guess the two Indian guys who started the current lawsuit were never in Pune when Osho was in the body, so what do they know about anything?
Doing meditation as ritual, as part of the job, as part of a monastic practises cannot be and will never be more beneficial than doing daily rounds in a fitness club!
Fitness and wellness club business is booming like never before. I think it is more or less in all the developed countries.
Fresch, if you are not enrolled into one such, please try one in your city. You may feel surprised to see more than 20, 30 women doing meditations too!
Sauna after meditation and then coffee, who will ever go to India?
PS- If one is not into the traditional religions, then every thing new in this line needs more marketing budget than coke or potato chips or one should built a brand value around one´s personality. Then it nourishes people´s emotional need to be in the company of a elder brother/friend or North Indian daddy, South Indian Amma.
Shantam, you vastly underrate the value of relatively small, or even very small groups of meditators meeting and meditating together, whether it’s for Osho’s or other processes.
I suspect you’re simply looking for an excuse, a reason to avoid meditation yourself and certainly one to just not bother starting up a similar small enterprise, running it down in your head before even thinking of giving it a try.
I wouldn’t be surprised to find you’re rather lazy, frankly – except in the matter of churning out your views at SN, of course…
And, just curious…
When was the last time you practised an Osho meditation, for example?
Face it, you’re only in it for the sex (well, there’s still hope, I suppose), the politics (ie the self-importance and the power, or rather the proximity to it, albeit many steps removed) and the imagined ‘life insurance’.
Same old, same old mind!
Someone can spend hundreds of lives doing meditation.
In my opinion, mediation will touch the soul only when this kind of questions will not arise any more, ” Tell me, when you have meditated last time?”
Few kind of questions one simply does not ask. Not even the persons with whom one shares life, has the right to ask, ” Tell me, when you have masturbated last time? Do you use dildo or carrot?”
Few things are personal, solitary, intimate.
MEDITATION is one such.
I hope other than pig heads all will agree!
Oh, so terribly sorry, Mr Holier-than-Thou! How dare I or anyone intrude on your precious personal space (or what there is of it).
Ok, so clearly you don’t bother with Osho meditations (and almost certainly haven’t for many years). So I wonder what ‘meditation’ actually is for you? If it’s hanging around a Christian church at Christmas, with tears in your eyes, then I suspect you’ve got the wrong idea somehow…
And how telling that you should both use a masturbation analogy, and yet be so totally misguided with your ‘never ask your partner about masturbation’ so-called ‘imperative’! (Perhaps you’d be afraid at your partner’s possible response as well as of revealing your own clandestine habit and her response to that? Intimacy must be a wonderful thing in your world, eh?!).
I’m afraid you do sound rather like a pig-headed wanker yourself, Shantam, you really do.
Unfortunately – and I accept you’re the ‘devotee-type’ – you come across as someone who could benefit greatly from meditation – and plenty of it – and I don’t mean just ‘formal’ meditation, I mean it as a way of being, in the first instance of looking at and into yourself with the clarity of honesty. But I guess that just sounds like masturbation to your apparently cloth-like, devotional ears…
And this, ladies and gents, is a man who thinks he’s somehow ‘qualified’ to help decide the ‘future of Sannyas’!
Perfectly and utterly laughable.
Those who seem to speak for Rajneesh here often quote a book called
“The Way of the Upanishad”.
This ‘book’ is not available on Amazon UK. Most Osho books are.
Maybe someone can enlighten us, just a guess but I suspect a recent translation (possibly unauthorised) from the Hindi early lectures, when Osho was addressing mainly an Indian audience ?
dear arpana,
quite an idealistic concept
of “a reasonable man” (human being
i like especially on this virtual “autobahn” to include both of the materialized “sexes”
i would like to add
that a reasonable human being
how you “quoted” it
is not a masochist either
to put strings of words out in an idealizing way
has coursed as far as i experienced ist
also a lot of harm
the dance ist not perfect
as is life
and patience is not just a word
love
madhu
Replying to an earlier comment on this thread by Dom:
Personally I think the debate around “Final Realisation” a little tiresome. The idea is strictly Buddhist and started (and arguably should end) with the Buddha.
In all other traditions spiritual attainment has been variously described, but its permanent or non permanent state is not even discussed in many traditions. Of course it has been adopted outside of Buddhism, often by the disciples of certain Masters, rather than the Masters themselves!
The main thing is if one meets someone along the way, whether it is a Rumi or a Jesus, or a Mansoor, and feel attracted to their energy field, and for want of a better word, their love, then be with them.
Human beings are a very varied lot, and there are many ladders to climb and many rivers to cross out of the valleys of personal evil and tyranny.
If someone offers help and you trust them, then surely that is enough, there is plenty to be getting on with to evolve into the spirituality of the truly ordinary.
If there is no-one one can trust, then of course the hobbit’s way has also some credence, and should be respected.
I have wondered occasionally if the ultimate realization is that there
isn’t one.
Maybe a topic for a thread. I think we’ve all been handed this mythical idea of a final and full realisation, of the permanently “enlightened” guru or Buddha. It’s a seductive idea, providing certainty and security, hence our attraction and addiction to these belief systems.
We also blindly accept hearsay and lineage as factual, when past masters are largely mythical and fictionalized composites.
The force of numbers and tradition adds so much weight, that it’s not even questioned.
One billion catholics, muslims, or hindus can’t be wrong can they?
In this way Osho was very traditional, reinforcing the primarily Indian thousands year old tradition of the all-knowing master and his devotees.
I think it’s a very simplistic but alluring model.
Seems to me all gurus are capable of getting re-identified with their “stuff” at any time, however expanded their awareness has been.
In fact the elevated dynamic probably makes it more likely.
There is no end-point or finality, as far as I can see, for anyone.
By setting gurus up on a pedestal or being their follower we are belittling ourselves and blocking our own way and discoveries.
Better to relax into not-knowing and discovering, and forego the illusory and unsatisfying certainties of “belief”.
But isn’t that what any proper Master teaches, Dominic, ie that belief is for fools?
The thing is, surely, to test whatever’s being said in one’s own experience, rather than to automatically take it as ‘gospel’.
Which can be difficult when surrounded by many others who are into total belief, worship, devotion etc. Not that I wish to belittle pure devotion as such, rather the sort of ‘unthinking’, fundamentalist, ‘this is the only way of a true disciple’ devotion that often tends to appear here these days, usually, but not always, through Indians apparently trying to assert what they like to regard as their ‘natural superiority’ in such matters (while in fact invariably portraying in themselves rather different qualities than those they profess to hold dear).
I wonder why few seem to really take on board the great teachers’ oft-repeated claim that they are simply ‘ordinary’ people…Perhaps, as you say, due to their “elevated” status, including speaking from ‘on high’ on platforms, including, in Osho’s case, what amounted to a ‘showbiz’ style of presentation…
But also, I suspect, due to our overwhelming need to place them on such a pedestal, to willingly submit to them as benevolent authority figures, teachers of the basics not yet mastered, as well as the mysteries of life, ideal parent-substitutes indeed…
But, paradoxically, let’s face it, theirs is/was also an undeniable natural authority, derived from their profound inner journeys, realisations, it would seem, of ever-increasing depth and breadth. I know what you’re saying and I readily empathise/resonate with it, yet I know that I’m nowhere near to any such level of being, so, along with healthy discrimination and trusting my instincts, I think deep respect and gratitude is the appropriate attitude towards such rare people.
Personally, for example, I might well not be here writing this if I hadn’t come across Osho, over 40 uears ago, so I count myself indeed very fortunate, as I believe you do, Dominic (albeit belief being “for fools”, of course!).
Yes SD, devotion seems to be masking blind unthinking belief here. Perhaps it represents a cultural divide too.
Yet I am also suggesting that “proper masters”, gurus et al have been promulgating a false belief of final and perfect realisation, and that it has been especially, but not only, Indian to do so, and that this is no longer tenable or helpful… at least for me.
A pre-occupation with “enlightenment” also keeps the dog chasing it’s own tail and the donkey forever reaching for the carrot.
Yes indeed there are all kinds of levels of awareness or frequencies within consciousness, from the most violent and pathological to the most loving and sublime. Ultimately there is only consciousness and gurus/teachers (well some!) may represent expanded awareness within that spectrum, rather than standing outside of it.
But they might be savvy in one way and complete klutzes in another, and I submit that at any time their awareness can get hijacked by their “ego”. I don’t believe they ever get rid of or dissolve it’s tendencies, for better or worse.
Then there are teachers who are self-deluded or con artists or part mixture of it all.
Another myth is that it takes one to know one. Well, I see them happily disparaging eachother so that seems subjective too.
Blind beliefs we can agree, are foolish, yet we may be holding onto some unconsciously without examination and as part of groupthink.
It’s also challenging to stay with not-knowing and even better… not caring or needing to know.
“Final realisation”, even if it should exist, is dangerously presented, because men and women love the protections of the fathers and mothers they never really had, and the security that gives.
Sufi teachers often go to great lengths to “disguise” themselves, and I have some admiration for that.
I think Dom you miss my main point which was more clear before our generation that to “be” with a teacher, for example those who were with Gurdjieff, never talked about his enlightenment. But they knew they were in touch with someone “further on” than them, and who was willing to share his life and experience, in my view, very unselfishly, and one can be around such a person and even in an at atmosphere of trust such that they enhance one’s own growth. The latter should always be the total and main preoccupation, and not judgements about whether someone is enlightened or not, etc.
I totally respect the way of the acolyte also, but gaining clarity as to which path one is on could be said to be of primary significance.
People like Alan Watts and others did not help. “Psychotherapy East and West”, a seminal book for many of our generation, held up the zen model of enlightenment, etc to a very wide audience, and very articulately. But for example none of the Christian mystics, including Jesus himself would have recognised the paradigm of “final realisation” proffered there.
Perhaps for sufi teachers, given their persecution, it was partly a survival strategy to go under the radar.
Stories about people who are long gone and who I never knew, may be entertaining but are essentially mental projections and belief based.
There is an authoritarian undercurrent in most cultures and teachings from which gurus spring from.
Sure you might grow under a teacher’s tutelage, but ultimately your life is your own guru and bible to read from, which is what makes it so idiosyncratic and unamenable to any cookie cutter approach.
The preoccupation with enlightenment has become part of the problem rather than the solution. But it is a lock and key situation, that gurus and traditions have spun, even if it’s bad form for them to claim it.
It’s mainly a theatrical nonverbal message anyway.
Osho claiming ordinariness and dressing and behaving like a star wars emperor is disingenuous.
In the age of youtube and the internet, I wonder what you’d make of gurdjieff today. I dread to think.
But Dominic, isn’t the concept of enlightenment, of ‘realisation’ or rather, multiple ‘realisations’ along the way – and, more important, the example of the enlightened – vital for the context of spirituality as we now know it? (My God, apologies for sounding like one of those American ‘New Age’ philosophers!).
Otherwise, all that some or many of us will have been doing might merely be placed under the heading ‘radical psychotherapy’ and some or many of us might be fairly content (or not!) with how we’ve done so far, rather than knowing in our very being that there’s still a looooonng way to go!
Speaking for myself here, of course…Am I the only one? I doubt it.
There’s only one…
(Couldn’t resist!)
Oh dear, I feared as much…
Never mind, there’s always football….
Interesting points, Dominic. Whereas it’s blindingly clear now that masters retain their everyday ‘ordinariness’, including some seemingly very odd quirks, it’s worth noting that apparently, once a certain level of realisation is reached it’s not so easy for it to be ‘renounced’ as it were, for the individual to regress to a less evolved level, simply because of the joy of his/her inner commitment to honesty, love and truth. Not my insight of course, but funnily enough I was listening to John de Ruiter answering a question on this very matter just the other day.
Also, unless I’m reading you wrongly, I think you might be tending to impose a limit on the capacity of human consciousness. Again, not that I’d know, but according to ancient and modern esoteric teachings it’s really rather simple, ie that enlightenment never actually ‘ends’, it simply goes on deepening, expanding…which is why a true master will always be changing his approach, revealing different aspects of Truth as his own realisation expands and deepens.
(Such teachings also say that eventually he is able to communicate directly with ‘Cosmic Intelligence’, including beings many light years away in terms of material Space. Mind-blowing stuff indeed, which also accounts for the UFO phenomenon, ie they are visitations from cosmic intelligence, “us in another time”!).
And why shouldn’t ‘enlightenment’ be unlimited? If consciousness – another word for Life-with-a-capital-L – “is all there is”, is the source of everything, including us human beings, including the very space we behold, a minutely tiny part of which we inhabit, then why should it necessarily be limited? Somehow, even what might be termed intuitive logic would seem to indicate consciousness is both infinite and eternal, also, but perhaps not so obvious, that what’s ‘out there’ (Earth and Universe) is a direct reflection of what’s ‘in here’ (psyche and consciousness). (Now ‘who’ or what does that remind me of? Could it be that 3 letter word beginning with G?!).
As for spiritual teachers disparaging each other, well, one key reason for this is surely that they’re taking good care that they only attract the particular segment of humanity that can benefit from their energy and specific teachings, methods. And btw, thank ‘God’ for their differences, how dreadful it would be if all prescribed precisely the same for everyone (the error made by all narrow-minded, insecure fundamentalist bigots). Every teacher, however great, transparently isn’t for everyone (and may well not be right for certain of his people at different times in their lives).
“Quirks and ordinariness”, seems polite to me in many cases, where one is talking abuse and cover-up. Causing suffering to oneself or others does not sit well with notions of realisation.
I would include jean de ruiter here, not a fan.
Of course Consciousness is Unlimited PLC.
As for teachers disparaging eachother, I’m glad that they do and are as vain and conflictual and judging as everyone else.
The information age like everything else, is a game changer for gurudom.
Time for people to grow up.
Latest of course is gail tredwell’s book “holy hell” on amma, which her acolytes are doing everything to suppress.
What’s the lowdown on John de Ruiter, please, Dominic? Is it re his wife, multiple partners, hunting wild animals?
I’ve just started hearing and reading a few extracts from his sessions, having only been to two public meetings a long time ago and I rate him ‘energetically’ and also as a man of apparently profound integrity.
The reservation I have at present is that he seems to tend not to get down to specifics as much as other teachers, speaking in general terms rather than grounding his advice etc. in the details of living, so that I often find I have to sort of ‘translate’ his words into the context of my own life, leaving me somewhat at a loss whether I’ve understood his precise meaning.
Whatever, he’s certainly a radical teacher who pretty convincingly blows away a number of what might be called common myths of spiritual materialism’ and who is, I’d say, plenty ‘enlightened’ enough. Not sure if he’s quite for me though, but certainly a few things to ponder over. And apart from any beneficial ‘energetic’ resonance even if one is struck by just a single thing a teacher (or anyone) says – and crucially, puts it into practice – then there’s value there, isn’t there?
As my guru larry david, from curb your enthusiasm says…
“Whatever works”
alokjohn says:
27 December, 2013 at 4:09 pm
“Is that what you mean by tough?”
Dr Amrito is over 70. Jayesh is not young. It cannot be much fun to be constantly fighting law suits. I would guess the two Indian guys who started the current lawsuit were never in Pune when Osho was in the body, so what do they know about anything?
When people guess, they can guess anything. To support the foot of clays of their icons, they won´t mind to buy uggs, as boots could be too heavy.
So Alok John for your information, those two guys Anandi and Premgeet I have seen first time in Pune in 1983. They were the ashrmites, I was a visitor.
From then till now, I think most of the time they were in Pune. Thousands of people can give evidence that they have seen them during all these years in the Ashram and around.
It is another fact, in the papers submitted to the court, resort authorities have not accepted their identity even as Osho disciples.
Osho was in US in ’83. Pune was almost empty then. You were there then with the two guys?
I was in thePoona ashram in 83. There were two friends taking care of Osho’s house and a skeleton crew of emaciated Indian workers taking care of the ashram’s grounds. I have a few photos from Osho’s garden. It was very quiet and peaceful wth not a trace of Osho’s legacy in sight.
Its been noted on SN how the ‘Fire in the belly’ brigade seem to be hardline fundamentalists totally devoid of any sense of humor whatsoever.
Well, now is your chance to ask swami R’s latest recruit if this is actually true?…
http://i.imgur.com/ZSb3woQ.jpg
I’m starting to wonder if they’re even human or grown in a petridish in a laboratory or worse… Welcome to the “New Man”…
http://trekcore.com/gallery/albums/borgdrones/Drone_FC.jpg
Alok John,
After Osho´s departure from India, Surely Pune Ashram lost the glamour. Still the property was kept intact, it became an Indian chapter of Osho´s work. All the meditation activities were taking place and around 40, 50 people were living as commune and few hundred people used to visit during festivals.
One correction from my side, in October 1983, I have come in contact with Osho´s essence through His books. It was in December 1984, I have visited Pune first time. I would have never gone back to Pune again if it was not because of Osho´s second home coming.
The two guys fighting court battles were part of the commune.
secondly, Prem geet and Anadi are just the tip of the iceberg. The front people of a long chain of Indian and western disciples who are supporting them. You must be aware that court battles are quite expansive. To hire legal mercenaries need deep and big pockets.
YES dominik (27.12.13- 10.37pm)
the kaleidoskop has many broken mirrors
and some of them you are have been mentioning far from above it seems to me
YET
i ve been missing the flavor of
YOU yourself by as to my best capacity digesting your lines
it is one thing to look in a kaleidoscope
another to BE it
and there is sometimes no fun in THAT
and also no reason to be proud of looking
if the seer and the seen are realized to be one
and by that i mean
it is nowadays so very easy to suck as from above (IT-technical progress…) other peoples struggling – especially failures
and quite another aspect is
to give a hand
also IN between the virtual realms
stubburn is me , isn t it (störrisch , stur (in german language) i don t want the dictionary just now..
so you have other deep looks into others
into facets …of broken mirrors
and many more could be added for sure
but don t you please forget yourself
madhu -
and i wish i could sense your flavour in between your lines
and i promise that i will train “my nose” – or better said
i cannot do otherwise
so thank you for this – dominic
A little tricky to “verstehen” you sometimes.
I suggest my title “write more good and fanny inglisch”.
But A+ for trying!
On the contrary I am suggesting that all this looking, listening and frankly worshipping others, is potentially a huge distraction from the essentially solitary inner journey, that nobody else, or their realisation or wisdom and ‘glow,’ can do for you.
Also if you can look deeply into others and their facades, you must have looked deeply into yourself it seems to me.
Perhaps then, Dominic, you (and others here) might appreciate this rather lovely little number, which captures at least some of the essence of the point you’re making about ‘aloneness’ (best via headphones – the song, not ‘aloneness’!)…
PS: Any resemblance to Rajneeshpuram in some of the photos is purely coincidental!
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
Sorry to be off-topic, but just in case anyone’s interested, here’s one response to this artist…
“Just seen Ron Sexsmith last night and he is like man’s cry to the Almighty for peace, love, mercy & justice NOW and forever! God Bless him and please may this world be filled with such heartbreaking depth.”
I have met blacksmiths,silversmiths, goldsmiths,locksmiths ,wordsmiths and songsmiths,
but what does a sexsmith actually get up to?
Er, good question, frank…I think it’s something to do with organising ‘tantra’ groups in the West – practical, ‘hands on’ stuff, you know the sort of er, ‘drill’ – but I’m honestly not too sure….
One very good thing what have happened because of this split is of course other, new centre, for example Nisarga and Delhi would not be so big and beautiful if Neelam and Keerti had stayed in Pune. I am actually expecting some kind of collapse of current management, they just have gone too far and any way they have the ”deserted resort” at their hands. Also I do expect it be a relief on big scale at sanyas network all over the world.
If there is need to be a central place like Pune, I would like their role, instead of sucking and regulating, to be giving. For example they could just give all this technological expertise to all other centres as well (even to the smallest ones) and why not give all their Osho’s books for other’s to distribute as well. For free for other centre everywhere, then they can sell them to people at reasonable price.
And instead of trying to turn their fellow traveller’s (they do not need to be competitors) face book pages down, they could just advertise all of them in Osho face book. Would not that be more interesting for new people and all of us?
You know, if you have a lot, if you are overflowing, then you can afford to give. It has been a decade of miserly money making, so it’s time to turn it around.
And I mean for any management there just give, without conditions, just trust that most of the people (at grass root level who are connected with people meditating (they are not any more), would just really spread the word. It would be also one way to pay back that thousands of sanyasins have been part of building Pune resort. They did NOT do it alone.
We can dream can’t we fresch…
thank you – parmartha (28.12.13 at 9.15 am)
the yesterday s sky of grey turned into sapphire blue this morning had bread with honey and fruit
and lots of espresso
i will now take care of my wounds and have a long shower
may be washing my lang hairs too to get finally started
your contribution
i would not have liked to miss to that everyday-to-day-today !
love and gratitude
madhu
Yes dominic, some of the dreams come true on the spot like here and now.
arpana, arpana ! 829.12.13 – 6.18 PM)
YOU ARE THE GOLFING CHAMPION
of your moment
reminding as elegant as mischievous
as one we sometimes remember to do so (and even more mischievous)to get a fresh breeze energetically
for the whole tribe as large
yet
golfing in the virtual areas
never end
don t they ??
i m glad i ve been sitting here
alone when i ve been looking at this amazing golf turner from unknown sources
may be unknowable
but the laughter this time
here
for me
was so refreshing
so
thank you for this !
madhu
\(^o\) (/o^)/