Osho’s Best Joke?

Nitya Prem suggests…President Jimmy Carter, former President Ford, Henry Kissinger, a priest and a hippy were in a plane together. There was a storm, and the pilot rushes into the passenger cabin. He says, “We’ve been hit by a lightning bolt and the plane is going down. The co-pilot and crew are dead. Here are four parachutes, sort out among yourselves who gets them.” With that he bails out. Jimmy Carter speaks first: “As President the fate of the free world is on my shoulders. I’m sure you’ll agree I should survive”, and he dons a parachute and jumps. Ford speaks next: “Well, I never did anyone any harm, and I have a golf date next week,” and he bails out with a parachute. Then Kissinger says, “I am the smartest man in the world, I should live”, and he jumps out. The priest then says to the hippy,  “I have had a fulfilled life and am not afraid to meet my maker, go ahead my son”, to which the hippy replies, “But Father, there are two parachutes left, because the smartest man in the world just jumped with my rucksack.”

I’ve always thought Osho’s jokes were a great way to wake up the people who had fallen asleep.
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181 Responses to Osho’s Best Joke?

  1. I find this funny and think that this could also have been said by Osho in a given situation:

    “I don’t give a flying flamingo what your view is…” – John Bercow
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNk8ii00IXk

    Just imagine how he could have delivered it – and to whom….

  2. satchit says:

    Interesting topic:

    Why did Osho use jokes for his teaching?

    One needs a very high developed intelligence to explain this.
    Maybe Dominic can do?!

    • Nityaprem says:

      Well, I think it certainly livened up the discourses, it folded a few surprises into the lectures and got people to wake up, it energised people. Maybe in a way it’s like enlightenment, the punch line in a joke, when you “get it”, could be like the moment of enlightenment.

      But I think also jokes are a source of joy, and Osho was big on joy. It’s an art to make people laugh, and he was pretty good at getting his timing right. I think the discourses would have been rather dry without the jokes.

    • dominic says:

      I see you offering the banana of flattery to the ‘speaker’ (best Krishnamurti impersonation) and his monkey mind.

      Don’t be a broken Haiku, Satchit.
      Have a go yourself, with your highly developed clown chakra!
      Don’t worry, nobody will eat you, because you’ll taste funny!

      • satchit says:

        You know. Dom, I’m not a native speaker.
        I tried hard to be funny, but I always failed.
        This is my destiny here.

        • dominic says:

          You “always failed”. Hey, that’s no joke!

          Well, here at the Osho Comedy Club, laughter is the best medicine, after opiates and sex of course, for a healthy immune system.

          You must have tried translating, still no luck? You may have bad karmady, or it could be genetic, or you might be German!

          • Lokesh says:

            On the subject of genetics

            New discoveries within our DNA:

            The surprising discovery by the Russians explains many “paranormal” phenomena…Russian scientists reprogrammed human DNA using words and frequencies. Genetics has finally explained previously mysterious phenomena like clairvoyance…intuition…recovery…the “supernatural” light…Aura… and so on.

            The discovery was made by Russian scientists who dared to enter DNA territory that Western researchers couldn’t explore. Western scientists have limited their research to 10% of our DNA, the part responsible for building proteins. They considered the remaining 90% of DNA as genetic “waste”.

            On the contrary, a group of Russian scientists, led by biophysicist and molecular biologist Pyotr Garyaev, decided that so much of DNA could only contain valuable information. To explore the mysteries of this unexplored continent, they teamed up with linguists and geneticists to conduct an unusual study aimed at testing the effects of vibration and words on human DNA.

            They discovered something completely unexpected: Data is stored in our DNA the same way it is stored in a computer’s memory. Furthermore, it turns out that our genetic code uses grammar and syntax rules in a way that is very close to human language! They also discovered that even DNA base pairs structures follow rules of grammar and syntax. Seems like all our human languages are just verbalizations of our DNA.

            Changing DNA with spoken words and phrases!:

            The most surprising discovery a group of scientists has made is that living human DNA can be modified and rearranged by spoken words and phrases. The key to changing DNA with words and phrases lies in using the right frequency. Using modulated radio frequencies and light frequencies, the Russians have been able to influence cellular metabolism and even correct genetic defects. Using frequencies and language the group did amazing results. For example, they have succeeded in transferring patterns of information from one DNA set to another. Eventually, they were even able to reprogram cells for a different genome, without scalpel, without making a single cut, they turned frog embryos into salamander embryos.

            The work of Russian scientists provides a scientific explanation for why suggestion and hypnosis have such a powerful effect on people. Our DNA is naturally programmed to “respond” to words. Esoterists and spiritual leaders have always known this. All forms of suggestion and “thinking energy” are largely based on this phenomenon.

            The study conducted by Russian scientists also helps explain why these mysterious methods do not work equally well for all who use them. Because a good ‘communication’ with DNA requires the right frequency, people with developed internal processes are more able to consciously create a ‘communication’ channel with DNA.

            People with developed consciousness will need fewer devices (for using radio or light frequencies). Scientists believe that with the development of consciousness, people will be able to achieve results merely by using their words and thoughts.

            DNA and intuition: How intuition works and why humans can now use it:

            Russian scientists also discovered the genetic basis of intuition — or, as it’s also known, “hypercommunication.” Hypercommunication is a term used to describe a situation where a person suddenly receives information from an external source, not from their personal knowledge base. Nowadays, this phenomenon has become increasingly rare. This is probably due to the fact that the three major factors that inhibit hypercommunication (tension, anxiety and brain hyperactivity) have become extremely common.

            For some living beings, like ants, hypercommunication is closely “woven” into their daily existence. Did you know that when the “Queen” of ants is physically removed from the colony, her “subjects” continue to work and build according to plan? However, if she is killed, all work stops immediately. Obviously, as long as the “Queen” of ants is alive, she has access to the consciousness of her colony members through hypercommunication.

            Now that Russian scientists have discovered the biological foundations of hypercommunication, people will likely be able to make up the lost skill, they can learn how to use it again. Scientists have discovered that our DNA can create what’s called “magnetic worm holes”. These “wormholes” are miniature versions of the bridges that form near-extinct stars (they’re called the Einstein-Rosen Bridges).

            The Einstein-Rosen bridges connect different regions of the universe and allow for the transmission of information beyond space and time. If we could consciously activate and manage these connections, then we could use our DNA to transmit and receive information from the universe’s data network. We could also reach out to other members of the network.

            The results of Russian scientists and researchers are so revolutionary that it is simply impossible to believe. At present we already have isolated examples of people using certain methods, at least to some extent. For example, those who excel in healing or telepathy. According to many scientists who are actively interested in Russian DNA research, the results of these studies reflect important changes occurring with our Earth, Sun and Galaxy. These changes affect human DNA and the development of human consciousness in ways we can only fully understand in a distant future.

          • satchit says:

            Dom, there are different kinds of laughter. There is the laughter of the herd. Do you belong to the herd?

            And there is the laughter of the depth. Do you have depth?

    • Nityaprem says:

      From Quora…I quote:

      “When you segregate the joke from the other content of the discourse, you are missing something more valuable and just settling on jokes…Jokes were a desert after the meal. Jokes were to bring back people from the silent peaks/valleys/mountains/oceans and bring them to the mundane world again, so that they don’t become egoistic personality again. They remain earthly, and grounded.”

      Maybe worth considering?

  3. What kind of humourist was Osho?
    The one with the funny jokes that made everyone laugh or the one who made fun of Nivedano?

    Although rumours describe me as too witty and light-hearted, I am aware of the centrality of suffering in spiritual research, certainly as I was born a stone’s throw from the Vatican State, with all those crosses and almost no guitar, but also because I am aware that a Buddha, at least in two cases, was born out of Zorba’s pain.

    If in the first case described by history, of such human flourishing, the definitive existential outcome is enclosed in the phrase “Appo Deepo Bhava”, in the second case, 2500 years later, understanding seems to have taken a further step, not understanding for the sake of understanding but understanding for the sake of the fun that process itself can give: “Be a Joke into yourself.”

    I have a subtle perception that the latter could trigger hermeneutic controversies, making a comedian tourist from the Iberian islands very passionate, nothing to do with John Cleese, different humour, other islands.

    When the comedian is faced with an audience that is caring inside a hypocritically inverted representation of reality, affiliative humor, designed to strengthen social bonds, simply isn’t possible, unless the comedian decides to help reinforce the lies of that representation. Better exile.

    But luckily there are other types of humoir, and not all of them have positive effects on the immune system.

    For example, in an upside-down society where a minority of “successful people” are justified in laughing at the “failures” of the majority, aggressive humour is absolutely welcome, with its
    depressive effects on the immune system, quite the opposite of what is claimed by those who think that words/names we use in communication have no personal effects.

    Recently I have demonstrated enough, I hope, as a measurable phenomenon, that if laughing is good, being laughed at is bad. I think also that Parmartha would have understood my very pure intentions.

    I’m not sure that the solution to avoiding the negative personal effects of aggressive humour is to respond to it with self-defeating humour; I don’t think it would be funny, at least for the one who is forced to defend himself …no, better use the hammer, imvhv.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULfqhCNHQPA

  4. dominic says:

    Above the Gateless Gate at the Ashram, if your chuckle chakra was open, you might have read the inscription, “Abandon All Seriousness Ye Who Enter Here”.

    Now Osho was the OG dealer for happy hormones.
    Dopamine, Serotonin, Endorphins, Oxytocin.
    You want it, we got it!

    Passing through the gates you would soon be swimming in a cocktail of neurochemicals, no ashram has ever seen, I think.

    Laughter, dancing, singing, moving, expressing, playing, creating, hugging, bonding, sexing, meditating, groups, relaxing, etc. every activity had the potential to deliver a packet of natural highs.

    The jokes, although fed to him by a team of researchers, were delivered with great timing, a little sweet reward and release, after sitting through a long discourse meal.

    I don’t remember any jokes except that they were often racy, except for the fuck tape, which was uber cool to share with non-Sannyas friends, for the shock value.
    A Guru, blowing up the image, of how a ‘holy man’ is supposed to behave.

    Joke telling is a bit corny and dated these days to my ears, I wouldn’t want to relive it, comedy has moved on, and being in a large group of devotees made all the difference at the time.

    Eckhart Tolle can be quite funny, when he’s on form, but it’s more observational humour about the ego, that is woven into his talks, and warms the audience to him.

    • Nityaprem says:

      Dominic says, “joke telling is a bit corny and dated these days to my ears.”

      Oh, I don’t know, I still mine Osho’s talks for good jokes. Whenever I come across one I lift it and send it to a bunch of friends and girlfriends via whatsapp. Even people who don’t know Osho’s discourses can appreciate his jokes.

      • dominic says:

        Who would have thought, NP? You have a “bunch of girlfriends”, how Sannyas is that! Don’t worry, I won’t tell Buddha ;)

        • Nityaprem says:

          Yeah, we men do sometimes need a dose of feminine energy. The whole male-female thing is a kind of social conditioning, roles which people take on. One of my uncles loves to fix things, show his manliness in that way, it’s become well-known that whenever he comes around you need to give him some odd jobs around the house. I learned a lot from him.

  5. Nityaprem says:

    I was just reading some of the past history of sannyasnews.org, and came across this post, which I very much enjoyed…

    On reading Osho’s ‘Last Testament’
    http://sannyasnews.org/now/archives/7922

    “To conclude. I had a visit from an old sannyasin friend the other day. I first met Anand in Kandahar in 1972. He was headed for Goa…on a horse. A true rebel, he was always in trouble with the ashram administration in Poona One. I think he got away with his wild celebrations at Laxmi Villas because Osho saw him as a true representative of the rebellious spirit of sannyas. Rock and roll! I asked Anand, who has a very down-to-earth approach to life, how he viewed his seven years in Poona One. He laughed and said, “It’s history now and I am glad that I was a part of it.” A view all of my old sannyasin friends share.

    I mentioned reading ‘The Last Testament’ and some of the bullshit Osho was coming out with at the time. Anand laughed again and said, “Man, I remember going to Buddha Hall for a discourse. Sometimes there would be a couple of thousand people there. When the talk was over I listened to what people were saying. Nobody saw or heard the same thing, man…everybody is different and sees things they way they see it…not one person the same. People are too hung up on words, man. Osho always said his message lay in the space and silence between his words. Most people don´t want to hear that and instead go around talking in their sleep, repeating what Osho said, blah, blah, blah!”

    Anand tugged at one of his dreadlocks and added, “This whole life is a school, man. You come here to learn something and, when you learned it, it´s time to move on. Osho was a great teacher of how to go about doing just that in the best way possible. Celebration, man! He even wanted us to celebrate death. How cool is that, man?”

    Amen.”

    Well said, Lokesh, a feather in your cap. Thought it was a good summary of Osho’s discourses at the time, he was a bit full of mind I think in that time. But still that’s why I enjoy listening to the discourses, to hear the sound of his voice and maybe a bit of the quality of the silence between the words. It takes me back to the Buddha Hall.

    And I didn’t know you wrote fiction, I might have a look, although I did notice you are not the only Luke Mitchell as an author on goodreads.com.

  6. samarpan says:

    Collecting 93 Rolls Royces to one-up materialistic America. I still laugh about that.

  7. There also were the jokes about “Father Murphy’s Ass” – the ass being a donkey in race.

    • “Father Murphy’s ass shows.”
      “Father Murphy’s ass out front.”

      • Nityaprem says:

        The full joke (worthy mention as one of the funniest):

        Father Murphy, an excellent horse trainer, was pastor of a remarkably poor parish. Deciding that he might as well apply his skill to the parish, he decided to train and race a horse so as to acquire some money for the church. The Church, however, being poor, had no money for a horse, so instead, Father Murphy settled for a donkey.

        So excellent, however, were Father Murphy’s horse-training skills that he was able to get the donkey in third place, leading the next day to the racing-page headline,

        FR. MURPHY’S ASS SHOWS.

        The next race, what’s more, Father Murphy’s donkey was able to land first place, provoking the headline,

        FR. MURPHY’S ASS OUT IN FRONT.

        At this point, the Archbishop grew involved. “Father Murphy,“ he declared upon summoning the poor pastor, “something needs to be done about this donkey!”

        “But, your Grace,” he replied, “it’s winning so much money for the parish! Next race we can have him win, again, and think what that will do for our finances.” Father Murphy, however, was wrong on this point, for the next race saw the donkey in merely second place, with the suitable headline following,

        FR. MURPHY’S ASS BACK IN PLACE.

        At this, the Archbishop was enraged. “Father Murphy,“ he thundered, summoning the priest again, “I will not stand for this! It’s a disgrace to the entire archdiocese, and I want that donkey out of your hands!”

        “Yes, your Grace,” responded a dejected Father Murphy. “After today, I’ll deal with him.“

        “Very good,” answered a soothed Archbishop, “I’m glad to— what do you mean ‘after today’?”

        “Well,” explained Father Murphy, “you see, I have him in a race this afternoon, so—”

        “Then cancel the race! Get your infernal donkey out of it!” interjected the Archbishop.

        “Very well, your Grace,” replied Father Murphy, leading the next day to the racing headline,

        ARCHBISHOP SCRATCHES FATHER MURPHY’S ASS.

        Father Murphy was as good as his word, however, and the same day he sold the donkey to Sister Agatha. This choice, however, did little to pacify the Archbishop, as it involved the headline,

        SISTER AGATHA HAS BEST ASS IN TOWN.

        “Okay, all right,” fumed and incensed Archbishop to Father Murphy, “tell Sister Agatha she has to get rid of that donkey. Not shuffle it around, not vend it to someone else in the archdiocese, just get rid of it.”

        So Sister Agatha sent in an ad for the donkey to the newspaper, leading to a big headline on the front page,

        SISTER AGATHA PEDDLES HER ASS.

        Another, less amusing headline announced the Archbishop’s funeral three days later.

  8. VeetTom says:

    Weird content?
    Just a great Bollywood movie (“PK”) with depth. Enjoy!

    This funny alien can’t understand human language yet. He tries to communicate by holding hands and reading the mind of the partner – preferably women for some reason…

    They all think he is nuts and trys to abuse women somehow, so they will send him to a prostitute – later on. There he learns to talh Hindi!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd4wsdUMorY

  9. The hunt for the idiot who never laughs seems to have begun.

    After the last dialectical battle about the quality of laughter, “laughing at” vs. “laughing with”, now here begins to thicken a mainstream sentiment about the quantity of laughter, imagining a dichotomy that does not exist in nature, but perhaps only in psychopathology, who “always laughs” and who “never laughs”.

    Maybe it’s coincidence, but I’ve read stories of many professional comedians worn down by the obsession with making people laugh, mostly with aggressive comedy, as Will Smith could testify, finding nothing funny about his wife’s alopecia.

    I hope no one here is foolish enough to use alcohol and drugs to get their 5 minutes of fame as a comedian.

    In my opinion Osho didn’t use drugs to entertain his audience, the fact that in a 2 hour show he dedicates 5 minutes to jokes doesn’t make him a comedian.

    In my opinion, if laughter is the flower of awareness, suffering is its root. Without awareness of the tragic human condition, laughter is more of a sneer, perhaps the sign of a process of avoidance, typical of a certain humour.

    • Nityaprem says:

      Veet, it seems to me you’re making the scientist’s mistake, of trying to take laughter apart into “sneers” and “laughing at”. Is it not better to just accept laughter as the moment of surprise of the mind, where suddenly the joy of the heart shows and we get a glimpse of the core of being?

      Yes, tragi-comedy can be fun at times. There are quite a few movies based on this, like Stanley Kubrick’s Dr. Strangelove. It’s a fine art form, but I prefer the clean feel of the tragic over some of the other shadings. Laughing at can also carry an edge of ill-will, ridicule which I don’t like and find unsympathetic.

      • Nityaprem, given that making people laugh is more of an art than a science, I’m not sure which scientist’s mistake you’re referring to, because from my point of view a science that knows how to unite the elements is the same one that knows how to analyze, then separate them. There is no implicit error in science, but possibly only in its applications, methods or intentions.

        If it is true that one way to turn off laughter is to analyze and explain what generated it, then it is possible to analyze and understand why not everyone likes to laugh at the expense of others.

        I like to celebrate existence, of which laughter occupies the right space, contrasting the aspects that prevent it, that is, which prevent the flow of energy within myself and therefore towards the outside.

        For example, I like toxic things like coffee, wine, sweets, tobacco, etc. I could observe and analyze these toxic elements to defuse their centrifugal force, if I still have superior things in my heart to celebrate, or I could choose to linger in their pleasure because that’s all I have or can aspire to.

  10. Nityaprem says:

    Simond said, “In the case of Osho, who was steeped in the mystery of the East, the idea that I should trust Him, as my own understanding developed, gradually faded.”
    http://sannyasnews.org/now/archives/6318

    More of my wanderings through the sannyasnews archives, this time a topic on “the unimportance of time and physical presence with a master — after the initial link has been established.”

    This article raised up some different thoughts in me, because a while ago on the edge of sleep I had a vision, of finding Osho’s hands opening wide in a gesture of welcome when I was looking at my hara. I do believe his presence is still out there, and that we will encounter him again, if we trust.

    I do think trust, a deep trust, is a good thing. It is a heart quality, unlike doubt, which is of the head. If you want to deepen your experience of your heart, explore your capacity to trust. It was said by Osho that as long as we trust, things will take care of us. A trust relationship with a master, that is a beautiful thing.

    I came across a beautiful story, I was reading ayahuasca experience reports, where a man had a vision of all the traumas of his past lives, and he was told by a voice in the vision to approach them with trust and forgiveness in order to bring healing.

    Its worthwhile I think to live close to the heart…generosity, sympathetic joy, friendliness, all these things we can raise up, hold in esteem and when we chose to bring them out, heartfulness arises and you find yourself getting warm inside and perhaps wiping away a tear.

    • simond says:

      “I do believe his presence is still out there, and that we will encounter him again, if we trust.”
      This is exactly what fundamentalist Christians also believe, too.
      Except they claim it’s Jesus.

      I wonder why you feel the need to believe his presence is still out there? You either know it is out there or you don’t know whether it is. There’s no need to believe in anything. Or you can if you’re a fool believe the world is flat. And if it’s out there, where is it? In the sky, in the seas, where?

      As to encountering him if we trust? Why the need for a trust? You either have encountered him
      (imagination) or you haven’t.

      Trust and belief are in this sense just the same thing. Another form of believing, or hoping, or wishing, or needing .

      • swamishanti says:

        Simond writes:

        “I do believe his presence is still out there, and that we will encounter him again, if we trust.”
        This is exactly what fundamentalist Christians also believe, too.
        Except they claim it’s Jesus.”

        What makes you believe that you know better than Christians, Simond? Have you had any experience of Christian mysticism?
        Have you ever read anything about the Gnostics?

        Christ- consciousness?

        “As to encountering him if we trust? Why the need for a trust? You either have encountered him
        (imagination) or you haven’t.”

        So here, because Simond never had a connection to Osho, other sannyasins who have a connection to Osho are imagining?
        Does Simond know better than other sannyasins?

        And if they are ‘imagining’, then according to Simond, Osho was also lying, right? When he spoke about the connection.

        I feel you are a little narrow-minded and out of your depth here, Simond.

        • simond says:

          Yes, I do know something better than some sanyassins – and I do know something better than Christians who talk about a presence and belief in Jesus.

          Belief is simply an idea, and all ideas are false.

          Osho knew that, he demonstrated time and time again, but he too was somewhat confused by ideas of connection. Yes, you might have strong feelings of connection but ultimately they are part of your imagination.

          I too felt a love for Osho, which at the time I most likely also interpreted as a connection; I certainly had a trust in him as well. I still honour him, am humbled by him, but there is no trust or connection any more. I have no need for him, so no need for an emotional connection.

          I don’t think Osho was lying, but he was uninformed about connection.

          • swamishanti says:

            Simond: “I too felt a love for Osho, which at the time I most likely also interpreted as a connection; I certainly had a trust in him as well. I still honour him, am humbled by him, but there is no trust or connection any more. I have no need for him, so no need for an emotional connection.”

            You felt that you loved him, and you trusted him, but you never developed a connection with him.
            Otherwise you would still have a connection with him now.

            It is not a question of belief or doubt, or imagination. In this case it is something you don’t really know what you are talking about. An experience you haven’t had, that’s all.

            Osho knew exactly what he was talking about, was not confused at all.

      • dominic says:

        Hello…can I help?
        Shanti is free to trust me if he wants.
        Donations are welcome, go to my Holy Ghost patreon page.
        Be blessed, not stressed!

      • Nityaprem says:

        Simond says, “I wonder why you feel the need to believe his presence is still out there?”

        I don’t feel the need, Simond. I am merely reporting that I encountered him in the realms between waking and sleep, and that I know he is still out there.

        In these places the heart is more important than the head, whether your heart is true and you can still trust, or whether the head is so encrusted with traumas and scars, and has grown cynical. Personally I am neutral in this, not entirely undamaged by the world but in touch with my inner child.

        Trust is a special quality, which allows you to be open to things that your defences would otherwise dismiss. My experience is that if you trust, good things will happen.

        • dominic says:

          There is a fundamental problem here with all forms of bhakti yoga, devotion to a guru or anything else, whether for or against.

          It is inherently dualistic, identifying with a separate self, a ‘me’, and thus projecting a world of subject and object, of multiplicity of forms and beings.

          It needs balance.

          Using the metaphor of the ocean, you believe yourself to be a separate wave, having or not having a connection to another, perhaps bigger more ‘special’ wave.
          Whereas waves are just the activity of the ocean, and everything is wet in the Osheean.

          “Realms”, “Visions”, “connections”, “trust” is all mind stuff really or states of consciousness, like dreams are, passing waves happening in consciousness.

          When sannyasins went to Papaji or Ramana or Nisargadatta or others, they got the missing piece of the puzzle. It was a paradigm shift, not just another experience.

          • swamishanti says:

            It can be easily misunderstood as a form of duality, especially by those who have become familiar with advaita teachings.

            The reality is that it is actually a merger, of consciousness, between the Master and the disciple.

            The Master begins to merge with the consciousness of the sannyasin. Then they are together, day in, day out, wherever the sannyasin may be.

            The presence of the Master nourishes and fully supports the spiritual journey of the disciple. His consciousness also uplifts the consciousness of the disciple, massively. What could happen through consciousness meditating alone is multiplied many times more after being to merge with the consciousness of a Master. What would take four years of meditation alone can happen in two days.

            Eventually, if combined with meditation, this leads to the transcendance of the mind and of duality.

            The consciousness of the Master is actually also the consciousness of the Whole, the Ocean, of Source itself.

            Dominic wrote: “When sannyasins went to Papaji or Ramana or Nisargadatta or others, they got the missing piece of the puzzle. It was a paradigm shift, not just another experience.” That was only for those sannyasins who had not been already connected to Osho, or felt the need for a living master.

            • satchit says:

              Yeah, right.

              It’s not dualistic and it’s not a connection.

              If you look into the mirror, do you have a connection to the mirror? No.

              It’s like the saying of Jesus:
              “Me and my father are one.”

            • dominic says:

              Yes, devotion to a teacher, guru or deity, can be a doorway I suppose, to their own inner guru. The way you describe it sounds a bit theoretical: “What would take four years of meditation alone can happen in two days” – something hyperbolic, heard or read in a book for devotees, rather than your actual experience.

              Your needle seems stuck on the finger, rather than the moon it’s pointing to, imho, as it is for most of the ‘true believers’ that come here.

              Nor do they seem a very happy or thoughtful bunch really, just getting identified with an ideology or guru like a drug, which can happen in advaita circles too, or any other ‘faith’ bubble.

              If it was really working for you, you wouldn’t need to get so fired up and defensive, like Lokesh says, it belies an insecurity.

              ‘Meditation’ is important but can be over-emphasised as it’s not a ‘doing’, trying to ‘merge’ or
              get somewhere.

              You “know” so many things, which are impossible for you to know, like “Osho knew exactly what he was talking about, was not confused at all.” Or Veeresh being ‘enlightened’, which undermines your arguments and makes you look like a fanatic, who if born in the ME, might end up as a jihadi listening to the words of the prophet.

              • Lokesh says:

                Good post Dominic. I could not agree more.

                Coincidentally enough, in my spare time I have returned to editing and tweaking the manuscript to ‘The Best and Worst of Sannyas News’. It is shaping up nicely for a fully revised edition. It deserves that.

                I have been reading through some of Shanti’s comments and I have to be honest and say that some of them are excellent, thoughtful and well-written. I can only conclude that he has taken a wrong turn of late by becoming a bit fanatical and holier-than-thou. Hopefully, he sorts himself out and lightens up.

              • swamishanti says:

                Dominic wrote : “ Yes, devotion to a teacher, guru or deity, can be a doorway I suppose, to their own inner guru.
The way you describe it sounds a bit theoretical: “What would take four years of meditation alone can happen in two days” – something hyperbolic, heard or read in a book for devotees, rather than your actual experience. “

                You completely misunderstand where I am coming from, Dominic. I have never suggested that ‘devotion to a teacher, guru or diety, can be a doorway I suppose to their own inner guru.’

                Although it is true, ‘devotion frees’, one of the sutras from the Vigyana Bhairava Tantra, what I wrote was that with an authentic Master such as Osho, a merger can happen with consciousness as I wrote above.

                To me, this did not happen because of any particular outer devotional rituals or attitude. I did feel that Osho was beautiful to behold, and occasionally enjoyed watching his videos or writing about him. I had also come into contact with enlightened sannyasins , after his death, who I became aware were very much with his Presence, as it were. Perhaps this gave me more trust in Osho than others.

                You also suggest that I am being a bit theoretical: “What would take four years alone can happen in two days” – yourself imagining, or projecting, perhaps, that this I read in a book.

                No, what I wrote comes from my own experience of coming into contact with Masters.
                It was never a outwardly ‘devotional’ approach, as you theorise.

                More a case of coming into contact with the right being , at the right time.

                I had been meditating, a lot, without a master, everyday, celibate most of the time , for several years.
                Consciousness was gradually increasing, I already thought my consciousness was strong but then I came into contact with a Master and my consciousness grew rapidly and massively, completely effortlessly. And this has been a permanent thing.
                Then it was a different ballgame, much stronger, all the time, even without needing to sit and meditate. After a while one gets used to this but, as Osho once said, when you become used to it the consciousness actually keeps expanding. And there are more expansions as the journey continues.
                This was before my more recent experience with Osho. The heart connection with Osho, has shown to me how Osho was working with people, for example at the Ranch, when sannyasins had little time for meditation and work was worship, they were still connecting with Osho who was lifting them up.

                You put:

                “Your needle seems stuck on the finger, rather than the moon it’s pointing to, imho, as it is for most of the ‘true believers’ that come here.
                Nor do they seem a very happy or thoughtful bunch really, just getting identified with an ideology or guru like a drug, which can happen in advaita circles too, or any other ‘faith’ bubble.
                If it was really working for you, you wouldn’t need to get so fired up and defensive, like Lokesh says, it belies an insecurity.”

                Not really sure what you’re coming from here, but arguing with Lokesh or expressing more positive views on here is not being “fired up and defensive”. What do you expect on a ‘Sannyas’ site carrying Osho’s photo? ‘Welcoming all sannyasins’?

                If I wasn’t grateful for working with Osho, why would I bother?

                Well, I guess there is also the case of historical accuracy.

                “You “know” so many things, which are impossible for you to know, like “Osho knew exactly what he was talking about, was not confused at all.”

                I have verified that Osho , knew what he was talking about from my own experience. It is not impossible to know at all. It is exactly as he said, when talking in spiritual terms. And this has also been the case with other masters I have come into contact with.

                • swamishanti says:

                  The other assumption is that the inner connection with the Master is a form of ‘Bhakti yoga’, which implies outward rituals of devotion and blind yea-saying.

                  I think for some Westerners, feeling ‘bhaktified’ (a phrase recently used by Klaus), where from outward group actions, trust and beliefs that they participated in, went along with, perhaps from a time when they were taking part in Sannyas ashram activities, much younger, more open and trusting.

                  Later perhaps they spent hours sitting on the cold marble floor of Buddha Hall in Pune Two but did not feel the connection that some had.

                  If the connection with Osho never happened, which of course, naturally, this is not going to happen for many, in later years, if one becomes more cynical, starts doubting more, perhaps a little bitter, then one may look back and feel as if they have grown out of those actions of their youth.

                  If they are foolish, the ego will attempt to assert itself by believing it is superior to other sannyasins who still trust or who are deemed as ‘devotees’.

                  Thousands of years of spiritual search have placed the master at the top of the pyramid in India, the outer actions result in garlands of flowers being placed around the guru’s necks, or on the photos, in the eyes of the Indian society the guru is closest to the Truth and has reached the highest stage of life, enlightened or not.

                  By the way, Advaita Vedanta gurus Nisargaddata Maharaj and Ranjit Maharaj were both very devotional to their Master, Siddharameshwar Maharaj.

                  In fact, Nisargaddata said that he has started teaching only because his Master had asked him to – years after he had departed his body. And I think Ranjit Maharaj also claimed to still have a connection with his Master in his seventies, long after the death of Siddharameshwar Maharaj.

                  However, if real connection with Master happens it does not have to have anything nothing to do with whether any of these outer devotional symbolic acts happened first or not. Only then can you say “fuck you” to your master and not care about the consequences. His presence is still beating in your heart.

                  “Between the master and the disciple – if the rule of the game is followed rightly – devotion arises. That is the fragrance, the river that flows between the two banks of the master and the disciple. That’s why it is so difficult for the outsider to understand. But I am not interested at all in the outsider understanding it, it is a very esoteric game. It is only for the insiders, it is only for mad people. That is why I am not interested even in answering people who are not insiders, because they will not understand. They do not have that attitude of being in which understanding becomes possible.”

                  Osho: ‘The Art of Dying’

                • dominic says:

                  Shanti,
                  Again, you make assertions with little or no back-up. I don’t think you realize it.
                  I don’t mean to be mean, but are you educated, did you go to college?

                  You say, “What I wrote was that with an authentic Master such as Osho, a merger can happen with consciousness as I wrote above.”
                  How do you know he was an “authentic Master”?
                  Apart from “occasionally watching his videos”, how much time did you spend with him, up close and personal, and for how long?
                  Or is it enough to watch a few videos and have some kind of astral connection?

                  Given all the eye-openers on SN and elsewhere about the man behind the podium persona, one would have cause to temper these simple idealized snapshot portrayals.

                  You say, “What would take four years alone can happen in two days.” Do you have an enlightometer that tells you this? How can you compare or know?

                  You say, “I came into contact with a Master and my consciousness grew very high, very quickly, completely effortlessly.”

                  Are you talking about Osho or someone else, as you seem to have ‘connections’ with several or many masters?

                  Then you say, “This was before my more recent experience with Osho.” And later, “I know Osho knew what he was talking about from my own experience. It was exactly as he said, when talking in spiritual terms.”

                  What experience? When, how, what, where? Vagueness heaped upon vagueness.

                  You say, “I had also come into contact with enlightened sannyasins who I became aware were very much with his Presence, as it were.”
                  Which “enlightened sannyasins”? How do you know if anyone is enlightened, without at least being enlightened yourself, and even then?

                  You say, “It is true, I do have a lot of certain knowledge.”
                  A little doubt, humility and critical thinking never seems to enter your mind, just a lot of wishful thinking, vague experiences we never learn about, and Shanti saying, “It’s true because I say it is.”

                • Re Swamishanti says:
                  15 January, 2023 at 6:33 pm

                  Swamishanti,

                  Just a short throw in…

                  I put ‘bhaktified’ in quotes as I did in no way mean it as a judgement ‘better or worse’.

                  It might be due to my life’s circumstances that I feel more ‘sober’: child of now 10 yrs. at school, health and years fading etc.

                  More in a sense of ‘It’ happens to everyone in a different (with or withouth bhakti, with the master teacher near or far, under a tree or no tree) way. Methinks, this is important to keep in mind. Know yourself.

                  So I do cannot say that I fully understand what’s happening in my process….

                  The book titled ‘I am not as thunk as you drink I am’ comes to my mind: hint to soberness. And Osho said: “Spaghetti always come first.”

                  Keep the spirit.

                • swamishanti says:

                  Yes, I was educated.
                  But quite a rebellious teenager, spent summers with hippies camping outside, and living in buses, tipi’s, tents and geodesic earth domes, and I did not go to university, choosing instead to drop out for a while and work travel the world which then I decided would be my way of life. Well actually, it was a bit more complicated than that, I’d already fathered a child by then..

                  You’re asking me a lot of questions, Dominic, and I’m not going to give you my life story.

                  Spiritual experiences I will not go into detail about much in this environment.

                  It is your prerogative to continue your doubts.
                  Many people will not want not to share their intimate experiences with their Master online and that also leads to more negative portrayals and misunderstandings in the media, from disenchanted as well as innacurate reports.

                  Although those with genuine interest in Osho can find first hand stories here and there.

                  “How do you know he was an “authentic Master?”

                  You know. Either you get it or you don’t.

                  “Apart from “occasionally watching his videos”, how much time did you spend with him, up close and personal, and for how long?
                  Or is it enough to watch a few videos and have some kind of astral connection?”

                  I visited his communes whist he was in the body, and have been close enough to him,very close to him, to appreciate him. His presence is beating in my heart.

                • Oh, so the JA have been suffering from wandering mind too!

                  Even artists are not saved….

                • To be fair, regarding the JA ‘arguing with a German’:

                  On that level it would have been hard for the German, too!

                • swamishanti says:

                  Ah, Bark, by JA. Now we’re talking.
                  One of my favourite albums of all time.

                  ‘Thunk’ is more like an interlude before the last song of the album ‘War Movie’.

                  If you’ve never listened to Bark, please do. Everyone should at least once in their lifetime. Before the ‘Earth Moves Again’:

                  https://youtu.be/KnnXKsZbTUo

                • Uhhhhh, just listened.
                  Straight to my heart.
                  Thanks!

                • Lokesh says:

                  I wonder how Shanti can take his supposed connection to Osho so seriously when Osho himself said that he didn’t believe in Oriental guru systems. In fact, he disavowed any connection to guruhood, saying that the very notion of a guru-disciple relationship is an affront to human dignity.

                  He explained that since his emphasis had always been on just being oneself, the act of refusing to be anybody’s disciple is precisely what being a disciple of Osho is all about.

                • dominic says:

                  Nice one, Lokesh. Checkmate!
                  Get out of that, Shantipoos!

                • swamishanti says:

                  I don`t take it `seriously`, at all, Lokesh. In fact I would have preferred to keep quiet about it.

                  But, there have been comentators here who were writing for years, and are ignorant and have convinced themselves that sannyasins are `delusional`, `imagining`, etc., simply due to lack of any experience on their part.

                  I like a historically accurate version of Osho, therefore from what I write is a simple statement of fact.
                  Is has not only been verified by my own experience but by many others.

                  “…the act of refusing to be anybody’s disciple is precisely what being a disciple of Osho is all about.”

                  You can refuse to be anyone`s disciple but this has nothing to do with sannyas or being Osho`s disciple, which is a very intimate affair.

          • Nityaprem says:

            I am fairly familiar with Advaita and the writings of Ramana, Nisargadatta and Poonjaji, I’m a bit of a fan actually. But my experiences on the edges of sleep have shown me that the reasoning thinking mind is in many ways incomplete without the heart. My intuition says, the heart is more important for me to explore.

            The Advaita metaphor of the waves and the ocean is beautiful, and the corresponding thinking around the atman and the brahman is quite elegant. But it hasn’t resulted in any great revelations, for me it is just thinking, new concepts added to the mind’s store. Even there I recall a saying of Nisargadatta, where he answered the question of how he had achieved, and he said “by trusting my guru.”

            I think Osho’s discourses show that different sannyasins had different paths, and he gave advice for different directions as appropriate to the questioner.

            • dominic says:

              Perfectly correct (Anand Yogi, where are you?).
              My impression, NP, is you are a bookish fellow, always quoting or outsourcing to what somebody else said.

              You can get stuck there, and it’s the booby prize. Your intuition with the heart sounds wholesome. Advaita can be dry and heady, and we don’t want clones. Remember, we are explorers not followers, it’s your unique journey, your unique mash-up of wisdom and inspiration, especially today with so much available.

              You say:
              “The Advaita metaphor of the waves and the ocean is beautiful, and the corresponding thinking around the atman and the brahman is quite elegant. But it hasn’t resulted in any great revelations, for me it is just thinking, new concepts added to the mind’s store. Even there I recall a saying of Nisargadatta, where he answered the question of how he had achieved, and he said “by trusting my guru.”

              A basic understanding is useful, but how to realise it, you’re saying?
              Indeed, a challenge for all.

              Nis didn’t achieve just by trusting his guru. It was by trusting what he told him to do, to focus on the “I Am”.
              I’m not suggesting you do that, as you say it’s different strokes for different folks.

              There was a group around Osho that pointed to this core question “Who am I?”, the enlightenment intensive, otherwise this didn’t really happen much around him, in my experience.

              Frankly, I don’t read Ram, Nis, Poonja, or Osho. There’s more modern, down-to-earth stuff, if I’m looking for inspiration, especially on youtube.

              I find the oldies are a bit too high falutin’ and dated for my taste, talking from a very high absolutist perspective that comes with asian cultural baggage. Osho bridged the gap and offered a more integrated approach, but still wanted us all focused on him, maybe some remnants of ego still there. Oh dear, I shall get some hits for that….

              • Nityaprem says:

                The reason I like to use quotes is because often someone else came up with it first, or said it better. Your own thoughts are just as worthwhile, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t give credits to those who came before.

                I’ll gladly own up to the title of ‘a bookish fellow’. One of my most treasured moments on the Ranch was sitting in one of the big yellow buses near Magdalena and having a friend recommend to me The Lord of the Rings by Tolkien as a book I should read. At night I snuck into the library trailer and obtained the three volumes, which had a big impact on my life and mind….

                I must admit, I am drawn to the bhakti type like Ram Dass. It is somewhat at odds with my independent upbringing and mind. The Buddhist teacher Ajahn Chah once said, “The heart is the only book worth reading”, which struck me as wise.

                • dominic says:

                  That made me laugh.
                  A typical example of your writing. In one short piece you manage to reference Tolkien, Ram Das and Ajahn Chah.

                  Quite right, why do any of these gurus bother to speak, they could simply reference the Dhammapada, the Gita, the Upanishads etc?

                  Why has existence bothered to create a Nityaprem?

                  Everything has already been said, the same songs sung, but the moment is always fresh and unique.
                  If I compared myself to the greats all the time, I’d be mute, and my guitar would be firewood.

                  I suspect that deep down there might be a negative belief of “I am not worth it, others are better than me”, driving it all. Most of us have it to some extent, compensated for in different ways. Should we buy into it?

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Well, I don’t talk entirely in quotes, and that is just as well. When I have something genuine to say I come out and say it, and I’ve been told that I’m quite good at capturing exact meanings.

                  Perhaps you have a point about negative beliefs, but it’s more often the case that I want to pass on the things that made an impact on me, and I use quotes and references to do that. Maybe I’m a bit of a name-dropper, aha.

                  It’s like a shortcut. I give you a quote of Ajahn Chah, you might get interested and download the 850-page pdf of his Complete Talks, and find yourself motivated and benefited.

                  But I can write quite flexibly, I have been known to indulge in an odd bit of freeform verse. It’s just that my creative juices don’t always flow as freely as I would like them to. Clarity seems to be more my thing, without the exuberant protrudences which motivate most real creatives.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  And why has existence created a Nityaprem? Obviously existence would be incomplete without my incomparable Being. I think it was Nisargadatta who said, existence could not be without even one of the human beings alive today. We all have a role in completing All That Is.

                • dominic says:

                  NP,
                  You say, “I’ve been told that I’m quite good at capturing exact meanings…Maybe I’m a bit of a name-dropper, aha.
                  It’s like a shortcut. I give you a quote of Ajahn Chah, you might get interested and download the 850-page pdf of his Complete Talks, and find yourself motivated and benefited.”

                  That’s a humblebrag with name-dropping, both afflictions of status anxiety, combined with quote peddling and sects trafficking, luring unsuspecting people with quotes, with the hope of full blown “Complete Talks” addiction!

                  Do these ploys of the ego to boost self-esteem work, or turn people off?
                  You go on to say, “And why has existence created a Nityaprem? Obviously existence would be incomplete without my incomparable Being.”

                  Lovely, finally some humour coming through, but then, oh no! “I think it was Nisargadatta who said…” and the name-dropping, quote dependency and peddling returns, so that I will be hooked into reading all 558 pages of ‘I Am That’!

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Dominic says “have you no shame?”

                  I never pretended to be a spiritual teacher, all I do is point at what worked for me. My small contribution to the Great Late Sannyas potluck.

                  But it seems to me everyone here has some sort of an axe to grind, we’re all talking at cross-purposes. Which is fine, as long as there are some lessons resulting from the frictions.

                  I don’t think a quote dependency is indicative of status anxiety, after all even Osho would quote at great length and tell ancient stories of dubious provenance. It’s just a way of spicing up what would otherwise be a dull recitation of opinions.

                  But thanks for giving me a different look at what motivates my writing style, that kind of alternative to self-inquiry is valuable.

                • dominic says:

                  I was joking with you, NP, maybe it didn’t come across very clearly. Riffing off what you said, “I give you a quote of Ajahn Chah, you might get interested and download the 850-page pdf of his Complete Talks”, as an image of a spiritual dope dealer, giving you a little taste, in the hope of getting you hooked.

                  Don’t take it personal.

                  I know for myself, when I ‘name-drop’ there’s ego and insecurity behind it, maybe I’m hoping to impress someone, embellish my personality a bit. It feels different energetically to something just coming up naturally in a relaxed way in conversation.

                  If I was to do it habitually, it would be a red flag. When people try to impress you with anything, it means they are looking for likes, for validation, that’s natural. We all do it to some extent, as we are social creatures but the exaggerated use of it suggests they are not getting the bulk of it from their own being, imo, if that makes sense.
                  Is it an attractive behaviour? Not for me, not in myself, or others, underneath I pick up insecurity aka ‘status anxiety’.

                  When a teacher does it, it’s contextual, you have come to them to learn and listen, although in general quotes will be a tiny percentage of what they have to offer.

                  If it’s 50% of someone’s postings on social media, it’s a red flag to me.

                  A test of anything you’ve learned and assimilated, is the ability to communicate it in your own words. It will resonate with authenticity and not just vicarious knowledge or parroting.

                  When meeting people in 3D, they will be impressed by your Being ultimately, even at an unconscious level.

                  That’s why I think Osho said somewhere that he didn’t want “his people” to go out and proselytise, but just to share their Being, and others will notice something has happened, and be drawn or not.
                  In any case, carry on doing you, (how could you not?), just a little reflection on my part.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  I did get the joke…honest…I do have a sense of humour! I do!

                  Maybe I will try writing some comedy, just to build up my funny muscle, which will obviously be required around here….

                • dominic says:

                  Ah no, NP, don’t try…be a hollow fruitcake and bring offerings to Dionysus, god of fun. Nietzsche was a fan.

                  I’ve seen flashes, you have potential, and neuroplasticity is real!
                  Just put some Dutch clogs on and clomp around the place, gets me laughing.

                  He didn’t get the joke, had to pull his beard.

        • satchit says:

          @ NP

          For me “trust” means, trusting my energy.
          Can also happen that I trust my doubt.

          What else shall it be?

          • Nityaprem says:

            Now, now, Satchit, you’re trying to slip out of the issue at hand. Do you want to be an Osho disciple or not? If you go on trusting in your energy instead of in Osho, who knows what happens to you, you may end up popping like a firecracker….

  11. dominic says:

    Haiku Satoris #3

    Sannyas News Welcomes
    All Sannyasins And Exes
    For A Brouhaha

    Haiku Poetry
    Just Count It On Your Fingers
    (Unless You Can’t Count)

    Who Wrote This Rubbish?
    Oh I Did. Actually,
    It’s A Masterpiece!

    Buddha’s Dead, Osho Too
    Time And Life Kills Everyone
    Tea And Toast And Jam

    White Robe Sexisthood
    Metal Detector, Sniff Test
    Zen, Like Cold Marble

    Help Me! I Am Trapped
    On Social Media. In
    A Wild Wild Country

  12. Nityaprem says:

    This joke I recall:

    An old lady was talking to her priest about her pair of parrots. “It’s terrible, Father, the things they say. I can’t show them in polite company.” The Father thought for a second, then said, “I may have a solution for your problem, I too have a pair of parrots, they are very religious, why don’t we put them together for a while?” The old lady thought this was a wonderful idea, and readily agreed.

    The two pairs of parrots were put together in a cage, the priest’s parrots with little rosaries. “Hello, we’re hookers,” said one of the old lady’s parrots. One of the priest’s parrots said to the other, “Time to put away the prayer beads, Frank, our prayers have been answered!”

  13. Nityaprem said:
    “We had a chance to spend time with him in this life, ask our questions, enjoy his presence, love his being. It was a question of saying yes to Osho and to sannyas, a question of feeling.
    A connection with Osho now is very much a personal matter. Those who know just know and smile.”

    Lokesh said:
    “I mentioned reading ‘The Last Testament’ and some of the bullshit Osho was coming out with at the time. Anand laughed again and said, “Man, I remember going to Buddha Hall for a discourse. Sometimes there would be a couple of thousand people there. When the talk was over I listened to what people were saying. Nobody saw or heard the same thing, man….”

    It would seem that the relationship with Osho has always been personal, as the dewdrops on different flowers can release different essences into the air by evaporating in the heat of the sun.

  14. Nityaprem says:

    Lokesh said, “Osho explained that since his emphasis had always been on just being oneself, the act of refusing to be anybody’s disciple is precisely what being a disciple of Osho is all about.”

    Osho often spoke about uniqueness and the futility of trying to walk in other people’s shoes. After my long wanderings in Buddhism I agree with him on that, and the most valuable advice I have gotten on the path have been about what parts of myself to explore, and to heed the advice of the inner teacher.

    I find it difficult to relate myself to anyone calling themselves a Master or a guru, this is a cultural thing I think. I prefer teachers or spiritual friends. But I have come to realise that a stubborn independence is also not beneficial, it is pride, ego, unforgivingness, sheer pig-headedness. It is a very male thing, and it means that one is far away from qualities of trust, surrender, from the female principle.

    It is another thing that society wants to imprint on you, that atomic, singular existence of which that feeling of proud independence is a result. The Advaita approach to this is quite beautiful, we are all waves on the ocean, and there is ultimately no separateness. The thing to remember is not to do yourself, your own expression, a violence by trying to be someone else.

    I think that is where Osho was heading — that in this life, we are our own unique expression of the whole, and we should develop that with love, joy, creativity, celebration. There is no need to sit next to a guru and chant bhajans all day long.

    • Lokesh says:

      Yes, NP, the word ‘master’ is a tricky one. Mastering oneself is commendable. Being the master of others is something I am not sure about. I only had a brief period in Poona One where I referred to Osho as my master, and that was it. I understand that being a master with disciples is not a negative thing, just as a master carpenter might take on an apprentice.

      • Nityaprem says:

        I’m not so sure that being a Master is not negative, it raises my intuitive hackles. It puts me in mind of authoritarianism, power trips, and too many bad fantasy fiction novels. At best it is a poor choice of word. If one is going to object to the Guru-Disciple relationship as below the dignity of man, then I personally think the Master-Disciple relationship is just as bad.

        I think of Osho as ‘the wise old fellow in the robe up on podium’, a teacher, a spiritual friend. That to me is a far more respectful position than that of Master, which carries too many negative and hierarchical connotations.

        • Lokesh says:

          All things considered, Osho was in many ways an authoritarian figure, albeit a benevolent one.

        • dominic says:

          Yes, I find that word ‘Master’ ugly and creepy, when used in a Guru context, unless I’m using both words, master and guru’, a little tongue-in-cheek.

          It’s a visceral reaction that makes me want to shake someone using it and wake them up, or get the hell out of Dodge. I’m picturing ‘zombies’ who have have had their brains eaten and want to munch on others.

          There have been just too many scandals and abuse, for it not to be tainted, which is clearly reflected now, to me, in how contemporary teachers present themselves, who keep those honorifics at arms length.

          Whereas, I have no problem calling someone with a particular skill, a master carpenter or musician etc.
          Although any humble genius would probably not call themselves that, and say they still had much to learn.

          In Osholand, like in other cults that went awry, in last century’s golden age of cults, people were controlled and did foolish things, in the name of ‘surrender’ and being in a state of mindless ‘no-mind’.

          Jumping from the frying pan of conventional society into the fire of pyramidical ‘enlightened spirituality’ wasn’t a rescue mission, as it turned out.

          As always, buyer beware.

          • Nityaprem says:

            I think it depends, relatively few modern westerners will connect to the Master-Disciple relationship, but maybe Indians will. Osho talked about many flavours and approaches, this was one more in the mix. The danger was that people would every other week try and shoehorn themselves into a mode of mind that didn’t suit them, thinking I’ve got to be a great bhakti, I’ve got to be like a Zen master! It was all 35 years ago now though, the world has moved on.

            You’re spot on, Dominic, about modern Western teachers avoiding titles like ‘master’. People like Eckhart Tolle, Rupert Spira and Adyashanti are more quiet-spoken and humble. I appreciate that about them, they don’t put themselves on a pedestal so much.

            The question is, have western disciples proved themselves ready for spiritual independence? If you think you don’t need a master, you will have to cope on your own with your negative impulses, without someone to call a halt to your excesses.

            • dominic says:

              Good points.

              For sure, devotion is alive and well in India and elsewhere.
              In every village, in every town, there are temples and shrines, burning with candles and incense, and the sound of chanting, that has been reverberating for thousands of years to Krishna, Shiva, Kali etc with no sign of that slowing up. It is woven into the fabric of life there, as is the the Guru tradition.

              I enjoy singing along to bhajans and kirtans, as I did in Buddha Hall. The way of devotion is the way of the heart and of communion with others, bypassing the mind and releasing joy and celebration.

              Although, as a more sophisticated westernised middle class grows in India, so does guru scepticism, with all the scandals there we don’t even hear about.
              When Amma comes to town in London, there is no shortage of westerners yearning for a hug.
              In Tiru every evening westerners go to Ramana’s ashram for Puja and to perambulate his shrine.
              During the day you might climb the mountain to sit in Ramana’s caves for hours, if you survive the aggressive monkeys trying to steal your bag for bananas.
              They overlook the large ancient Temple compound of Tiru, where you might go, with a million other people, to celebrate Shivratri through the night, with colour, lights, smells, music, theatre, food and poor elephants.

              Eventually, under this devotional onslaught on your heart and senses, as was in Poona, you will cave in and roll over, to emerge a Bhakti, bowing and namaste-ing your way to the infinite…at least for a while.

              In the West now, devotional singing has become popular in yoga centres too. And Someone like Mooji and others encourage a devotional set-up.

              So I guess it will continue in the mix in the spiritual supermarket, this wanting to worship something bigger than ourselves.

              The only problem being that it is easily exploited, and has been throughout history.
              Modern teachers like “Eckhart Tolle, Rupert Spira, Adyashanti” and others, are more my cup of tea now, without all the razzmatazz of old-style gurus, who are “quiet-spoken and humble”, and practical and contemporary. You can also comment on their youtube channels and forums. ‘Masters’ tend to create slaves, spiritual or otherwise, as they never stop being human, oddly enough. A bit more freedom of speech in Oshoville might have saved the day.

              Also, I think, once you’ve caught the nondual bug, your devotion becomes more equally directed to the ‘Ocean of Being’ rather than any special big wave, offering salvation or hypnosis!
              You can do both, of course, if so moved.

              As for your last comment re “western disciples”, it’s very generalised. Everyone is on a unique journey, and one’s ‘school of life’ is the main gig imho.

              If you want individual help, there’s plenty of it online now.
              Since Covid it has spiralled, so that most teachers offer it in different formats, which is how they make money too, and some are psychotherapists.
              So there’s no shortage of help as far as I can see.

              I don’t know about “spiritual independence”, sounds like an oxymoron to me, since ‘Brahman’ is running the show!

              If you feel you need a ‘master’ or a drawn physically to be with someone, sure, why not? You might gain benefit or need to live out some illusions and delusions ;)
              Osho had no master, nor did Buddha, nor did Ramana, and Papaji saw him only very briefly. There as many ways as people, no?

              I enjoy listening to Swami Sarvapriyananda, a brilliant mind, humorous, humble and joyful and he’s in a lineage, as are some others I like.

              In fact I’ll listen to anyone I like, philosopher, musician, neuroscientist, therapist, comedian, the person at the checkout, the trees, the flowers, the sky etc, and during that time they are my guru!

              You say, “If you think you don’t need a master, you will have to cope on your own with your negative impulses, without someone to call a halt to your excesses.”
              Sounds like Mara, sending you a worry demon, or search for a parent for a wayward adolescent!

              You’re going to have to do that anyway, master or not.
              When you’re away from a teacher, or a retreat, or the structure of an ashram carrying you, you tend to fall back on your default conditioning anyway.

              After the ecstasy the laundry.
              You’ll have to figure it out by yourself eventually, I mean, ‘how to be happy’. Everything else is dependency and, you guessed it…impermanent.

              • Nityaprem says:

                I have to admit, devotion is still a mystery to me. I feel it, but I don’t know why. It sometimes puts me at odds between mind and being.

              • Nityaprem says:

                The spiritual path for me has been a search for being better than merely well. I’ve always been a reasonable and happy person, and seem to have lived my life by many of the guiding principles of the Buddha without even knowing it!

                Maybe I will just take a step back from learning from teachers, opening myself up to all these differing teachings is something I have found tiring and lately confusing at a deep level beyond the mind, where I feel my intuition rests.

                I agree with you that Advaita Vedanta has important things to say, the metaphor of the waves and the ocean is a good way of pointing. Getting used to being part of a larger Whole, as we are inevitably part of this Planet Earth as well feels very right to me.

              • Nityaprem says:

                Dominic said, “If you feel you need a master or are drawn to physically be with someone, sure, why not?”

                What’s easy is just to read the books, or watch the YouTube videos. And I tend to take things easy whenever possible.

                But I also keep in mind Lokesh’s comments where he was talking about the time he visited H. W. L. Poonja, that he felt he was the real deal, as good as Osho, and that the other teachers he met were poor imitations by comparison to those two.

                At the moment I don’t feel anything unfinished when I think about spiritual teachers. If I were to continue to listen to Osho it would be more for the familiarity than to learn anything. I feel more of a creative impulse right now.

                • dominic says:

                  So far, my most powerful ‘spiritual’ experience, outside of psychedelics, was in Lucknow, which was confirmation of what all the advaita talk was about.

                  Personally, I found it very helpful to have at least one or two experiences like that, otherwise I might still be running on faith to some extent.

                  Nor can you beat the real deal of being together with other seekers and finders and teachers, and for many years I frequented the Satsang scene when it was at its peak.

                  It seems to have tailed off in the last years, and covid or the post-covid we have now, seems to have habituated people into staying at home and going online much more for their spiritual fix, though it’s not the same.

                  Still, whatever you frequent, without continuing personal practice and understanding, any group, retreat, or teacher is only going to help temporarily, before the mind’s power of endarkenment returns, imho.

                  I think Osho had more of a Buddhist perspective on life, I believe the Jain tradition he grew up in does too. Whereas Papaji, who met Ramana, was a Krishna devotee from a Hindu family, and perhaps Vedanta came more naturally to him. I’m no scholar though.

                  In Vipassana, you watch ‘objects’, mind, body, breath etc. In advaita, the emphasis is on turning attention back on itself, to the watcher, to the ‘I Am’, not so much to the flow of experience, but to the knower of them.

                  This is radical, because it brings into question our normal view of ourselves, as a separate person, located in a body, and a world out there, into an awareness or field of being, in which the universe or Maya happens. Very similar to a dream, in which the movie and all the characters are happening in the dreamer’s mind. Both approaches can complement each other, of course.

                  In Lucknow, there were plenty of Buddhists and Sannyasins. It seems the Vipassana community, curious and frustrated with the shortcomings of their own practice, came there simultaneously as the Osho one, which brought a lot of liveliness that I think Papaji enjoyed.

                  Similar to Osho, he liked to laugh and giggle a lot. The clarity that comes with an undivided mind must make life seem quite comical and people’s trips more transparent.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  The closest I’ve been to Poonjaji has been through the poems in the Satsang book ‘The Truth Is’ (which you can download as a pdf), but he is one of my favourites. I especially like his directness and his clarity, and he has a certain jolly energy, for sure.

                  The part of his teaching where he says, if you give me just a few seconds…one second…half a second…of your undivided attention, then there is a glimpse there. It doesn’t take long.

                  It’s a contrast with Osho, who gives long talks and destroys your questions, but seems to be engaged in hypnotising you to wash clean your energy.

                  You could argue both men were in the business of transforming people, but they did it in very different ways. Osho’s transformation was caught up in the commune, in the discourses, in therapy, in meditation. Maybe that’s more lasting.

                  I really enjoyed this docu, ‘Call Off The Search’, about Papaji:
                  https://youtu.be/dBIK-VFvDhA

                • dominic says:

                  Well, nothing lasts, NP.

                  Everybody’s journey is unique. We wore uniforms and malas to identify ourselves, but underneath we were heterogenous individuals, even more so after Osho passed.

                  In the last years, as the world became more polarised, I realised what different and often opposite views sannyas-related people all shared on hot topics like Trump, Covid, vaccines, global warming, Islam, open borders, racism, globalism, socialism, etc., not to mention all the other spiritual teachers.

                  I wonder if Osho had still been alive, if he would have picked up on the post-90s non-dual trend.
                  It’s not as if his work and communes didn’t or couldn’t evolve, whilst just outside the Poona ashram, satsangs were being held after he died.

                  Even though Osho embraced western humanistic psychotherapy, which was very lucrative for the communes, his main emphasis was on the perennial philosophies of eastern thought, as was Papaji, going back to the Upanishads and Vedas.

                  I only compare them as examples of the progressive path and the direct path, vipassana and non-dual enquiry.

                  As far as “long-lasting”, for all intents and purposes, Osho’s communes are in the minor leagues now. They still exist to some extent, but who goes to Poona anymore?

                  But yes, his work goes on in the form of meditations, groups, books etc.
                  So does Papaji’s, and his influence on subsequent teachers, and all the cross-fertilisation between the two.

                • swamishanti says:

                  I have woken in recent years to the fact that Osho’s popularity has grown massively in certain areas of the world since he left the body.

                  Yes, there are not as many communes worldwide as there were back in the 80s, yet the movement is still very much alive, yet not at all centred in Pune, spread out, sannyasins with a diverse selection of views and walks of life as you suggest, and various teachers.

                  There are as many, likely more sannyasins than when Osho was in the body, more people taking sannyas every year, and although sannyasnews in its little bubble is certainly no longer in touch with it, there are ‘sannyas’ communities spread around the globe.

                  Who knows, perhaps in the next life you may be again drawn into Osho Sannyas and don the orange/maroon and the mala.

                  Just over the last few days I have noticed some videos popping up on YouTube, Indians protesting outside the Pune Resort regarding issues such as the lack of MahaParinirvana celebration, wearing of mala, entrance to the Samadhi etc., on the BSR media tv channel:

                  https://youtu.be/Yl4fNijkDA8

                • Nityaprem says:

                  In ‘The Truth Is’ Papaji repeatedly says things like “beware a teacher who asks you for money” and it strikes me that Osho was less than perfect in this. I really like Papaji’s approach of stay a week or two for satsang, hear what is there, experience it and go. It’s super direct and clean.

                  Whether Osho’s way to create an impact through many books which last beyond his death will work out into a long-lasting movement is anyone’s guess.

                • dominic:
                  21 January, 2023 at 7:32 pm

                  and Nityaprem:
                  22 January, 2023 at 8:05 am

                  Your posts gave me a lot of things to ponder and reflect upon. Already did so in the last few days…
                  David Crosby died and I listened to songs of my youth….got quite a bit swept away.

                  My spiritual journey started in practice in a meditation centre in Rangoon. No guru trip at that time. Just intense practice day in, day out. Reporting to the teachers 10 minutes per day and listening to 1 hour evening talk daily.

                  So, the chance of ‘going forth’ in the times coming is always there. Be it as a sannyasin, a Sufi student, a meditator in this or that style. Or even joining a meditation order. In the next life.

                  Keep up the spirit.

                • swamishanti says:

                  NP said:
                  “In ‘The Truth Is’ Papaji repeatedly says things like “beware a teacher who asks you for money” and it strikes me that Osho was less than perfect in this.”

                  The truth is, bald-headed Pappaji was simply parroting from a traditional Hindu mindset, he could never really move out of that comfort zone.

                  Osho, like Gurdjieff, knew that if you ask for a charge, then only those who are most authentically interested in your work and ready for transformation are going to bother coming to you – and that’s the people you want if you are an authentic Master.

                  Gurdjieff used to ask for silly sums of money to purchase one of his own written, unpublished books – say $100.

                  Osho always attracted large crowds through his talks and magnetism, and he had to find ways to separate the wheat from the chaff.

                  If Osho’s whole ashram would have been completely for free in his lifetime, it would have attracted all kinds of idiots, millions of people.

                  Plus, Osho knew that those charges could be used for his future commune projects and to make really beautiful and luxurious environments, which reflected his vision; he needed big money.

                  NP:
                  “I really like Papaji’s approach of stay a week or two for satsang, hear what is there, experience it and go. It’s super direct.”

                  It appeals to those with a more Christian mindset, but resulted in a lot of people having quick breakthroughs, which were not permanent enlightenments.
                  Experiences of the Atman, but not the Paramatman.

                • dominic says:

                  Perfectly on the money, Shantibhai, those 99 Rollers and bling are not simply going to pay for themselves! Ridiculous!

                  As you say the Atman is not where it’s at, man. Whilst the luminous light of the Bra man (large D cup) is clearly reflected in your Caravanserai posts.
                  Only the enslaved mindset of a Christian could say otherwise.

                  Certainly you have chosen the perfect authentic Master, who is not totally “bald-headed”, to have facilitated your Paramatman and permanent enlightenment, and victory is yours!
                  Jai Bolo Osho ki jai!

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Swamishanti said: “It appeals to those with a more Christian mindset, but resulted in a lot of people having quick breakthroughs, which were not permanent enlightenments.
                  Experiences of the Atman, but not the Paramatman.”

                  So what would you say of Osho’s success rate? There are a lot of therapists out there who are kind of “enlightened for commercial reasons” but really in terms of people with their own voice and their own message I haven’t come across anyone yet.

                  Papaji didn’t do too badly I think, he gave people something they could work with and develop.

                • swamishanti says:

                  NP said:

                  “So what would you say of Osho’s success rate? There are a lot of therapists out there who are kind of “enlightened for commercial reasons” but really in terms of people with their own voice and their own message I haven’t come across anyone yet.“

                  I think Osho actually did exceptionally well, much better than many people realise.
                  Several of his earliest Indian disciples became enlightened, and out of the thousands of people who came later, yes, there have been many success cases, sannyasins became enlightened in Pune One, at the Ranch, and also later. There were sannyasins who were intimately connected to Osho before the Ranch, during the Ranch, and after he left the body. Some of the Indian enlightened sannyasins used the seven bodies system, which Osho explained in several talks, and grew beyond their original awakening.

                  The majority of them kept quiet about their experience, with only a few sharing with others while Osho was in the body.
                  And others have become enlightened later after he left his body.

                  Often those who are teaching are keen to keep quite a low profile, and prefer working with people who they feel are ready. Osho on the other hand seemed to fulfil a particular, larger purpose, a worldwide work, helping to work towards a global transformation.

                  I feel he may have appeared on the earth at the right particular moment in time, a fully enlightened being of rare attainment, with also the capacity to communicate exceptionally well, his popular books and talks a testament to that.

                  You say, “There are a lot of therapists out there who are kind of “enlightened for commercial reasons” but really in terms of people with their own voice and their own message I haven’t come across anyone yet.”

                  I don’t know of any therapists who are “enlightened for commercial reasons” – I recently realised that there was some negativity on SN directed at the Humaniversity from one of two disgruntled people who participated, that may have given some readers a bad impression of Veeresh or the Humaniversity.

                  That is the power of the media, it can easily influence people one way or another.
                  With therapy, there will always be a few people who had an unhappy experience, yet I personally have known quite a few people who have spent time and even lived with Veeresh and thought he was a special guy, and I know people who spent time at the Humaniversity and were transformed by the processes they took and were grateful.

                  I don’t know if Veeresh was fully enlightened, but obviously somewhere and he had transcended the mind.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Swamishanti, you seem to talk a lot of stuff from vague sources and hearsay.

                  Aside from Veeresh and the Humaniversity, can we come up with one acknowledged sannyasin who is enlightened and teaches?

                  I think Papaji actually did rather better than Osho, giving rise to quite a few disciples who had an experiences of varying depth and went out to teach. Mooji is probably the most successful but there are a number of others (Gangaji, Mudhakar, Dolano and more).

                • swamishanti says:

                  NP:
                  “Swamishanti, you seem to talk a lot of stuff from vague sources and hearsay.”

                  No, not at all. I talk from people I have met, my experiences and the experiences others ha veshared with me.

                  “Aside from Veeresh and the Humaniversity, can we come up with one acknowledged sannyasin who is enlightened and teaches?

                  Yes, there are many. But one has to be really interested to find them.

                  “I think Papaji actually did rather better than Osho, giving rise to quite a few disciples who had an experiences of varying depth and went out to teach. Mooji is probably the most successful but there are a number of others (Gangaji, Mudhakar, Dolano and more).”

                  Not really. Papaji was lucky to find himself with quite a few sannyasins in the early ‘90s, who he could give a satori to. That’s all. Many of them prematurely believed they were enlightened.

                  Apparently (from what I’ve read from Lokesh at least), he wasn’t interested in people staying around him much. Lokesh seems to think that is a good quality, but if you do that, then you are not really taking responsibility for the disciple. Obviously if you were to talk to others around Papaji, you would get other stories and probably find people who stayed for years. I know that one sannyasin married Papaji’s daughter, as I read from his obituary on Oshonews last year.

                  Anyhow, no doubt he helped some get enlightened, for sure.

                  The thing is it’s all Source, really, working through Osho and Papaji, awakening people in its own time, and its own way.

                  I’m glad you replied tonight as I’ll be away from the Swamishanti SN desk a few days.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Swamishanti said, “it’s all just Source, awakening people in its own time.”

                  I agree, and I don’t think Osho particularly took responsibility for the people he gave sannyas to either.

                  At least Papaji said, “You should acknowledge the guru, the lineage you come from.” Unfortunately, a lot of western disciples aren’t very comfortable with that and don’t display photos.

                  I’ve seen huge pictures of Ramana Maharshi displayed prominently in Papaji’s satsang hall. That seems to me more respectful, more appropriate.

  15. Lokesh says:

    Shanti says, “I don`t take it `seriously`, at all.”
    That may be true. We only have Shanti’s word for it. I know that appearances can be deceptive. Nonetheless, after reading many of Shanti’s comments over the past few months they did come across as being overly serious in terms of what he was saying and how he was representing himself. End of story.

    Then Shanti goes on to say the following: “I would have preferred to keep quiet about it.” This begs the question: then why didn’t he? Nobody is forcing him to write on SN. It is his choice. That is, unless he somehow feels compelled to write, because he believes something wrong is going on and he can make it right by saying what he does. Beats me.

    Shanti concludes with the following: “You can refuse to be anyone`s disciple but this has nothing to do with sannyas or being Osho`s disciple, which is a very intimate affair.”
    What has to do with Sannyas and or being Osho’s disciple is surely a matter of personal opinion. After all, this is what Shanti is doing, expressing his personal opinion, yet I can’t help but feel he wants his opinion to be ‘THE OPINION’.

    Being in an intimate affair with Osho today has to be personal, taking into consideration the man has been dead for over thirty years. It’s that alive presence again. The holy ghost. Talking of ghosts I distinctly remember Osho telling me that any relationship with him would be one-sided, him being a hollow bamboo…a pure enlightened nobodyness.

    Maybe there is a difference between having a relationship with Osho or having an affair with him. I’ve really no idea about that. I have enough of a job relating in my life without bringing in holy ghosts with a special spiritual presence that wants to be with me all the time.

    Okay, tea break over. Back to work.

    • Nityaprem says:

      The holy ghost…tee hee…you have a gift for wordplay, Lokesh. Because in a way that’s exactly what we are talking about.

      But if in a near-death experience you are going to see all your loved ones again, and once you really loved Osho, don’t you think you’ll see him there again standing amongst ex-lovers and family members? It makes perfect sense to me.

      If death (or near-death) can summon these people from the Whole to guide you to your after-life, then why not Osho?

  16. Just read obituary of Ronald Blythe in ‘The Guardian’:

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/jan/15/ronald-blythe-obituary

    He wrote about the countrylife in old times. He lived to be 100 years old.

    It is not very far-fetched to compare one’s own life to his: my grandfather and grandmother on my father’s side grew up in small villages in a tough place. They met as farmhands for a local farmer. They gave their first daughter for adoption as they could not afford to raise her themselves.

    After marrying they moved to a city (now 35,000 inhabitants) where my father and his elder sister were born. My grandfather delivered coal to the households in this city on his own 2 horse carriage.

    Today, we are discussing here the (possibly) last few steps before enlightenment. And listen to our favourite music pieces of the 60s or whenever.

    We have come a long way.

  17. I wonder what those who talk about a paradigm shift are referring to, maybe to just leaving the Osho wave to surf the wave of Papaji, Ramana or Sarvapriyananda?

    Is parroting the Indian sages with “All is One” enough to end conflict and polarization, when the waves disappear and the ocean remains flat calm?

    What would stop a surfer from feeling gratitude, devotion or trust for the Papaji wave?
    And what would prevent an Osho surfer from having an intellectual and detached approach to his wave?

    Is it so true that the advaita approach solves the ethical problem of behaviour, simply because it declares the victim and perpetrator are the same thing?

    Is Osho really associated more with devotional Yoga than with Jñāna Yoga (knowledge)? And why not Raja or Karma Yoga?
    Were the advaita masters, referred to by former sannyasins here, all waveforms with sensitivity, intellect and knowledge superior to that of Osho?

    It appears to me that Bhakti Yoga does not require a great intellectual commitment, for Being it is enough to know that everything is Brahma, precisely as an advaita black belt would say.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSbTaIDYTb0

  18. Lokesh says:

    Shanti says, “The truth is, bald-headed Pappaji was simply parroting from a traditional Hindu mindset, he could never really move out of that comfort zone.”
    Thus says someone who never actually met Poonjaji.

    The truth is that Poonjaji was not really a traditional Hindu at all, and neither was his mindset. He tended to wear Muslim-style clothes and was well travelled. His comfort zone was quite a humble one by most standards, both physically and psychologically speaking.

    He settled in Lucknow for two reasons: He was unwell and Lucknow was kind to him after he was forced to leave Pakistan in 1947.

    During the early nineties, when I was in Lucknow, there was quite an influx of sannyasins travelling up from Poona to check out what was happening around Poonjaji. I can remember one morning he got out of a car to enter the satsang house. Due to the influx of sannyasins many were namasteing him with joined hands like they were accustomed to doing with Osho, a very Hinduistic practice. Papaji paused for a moment and studied the scene. He appeared slightly puzzled by this new development. He gave a quick namaste and then went inside.

    I have a close friend who lived for several years with Poonjaji. According to him, Papaji was not at all interested in accumulating money. Rich seekers offered donations to build an ashram, which he refused. The small pension he received from the army was what he lived on. He was quite frugal.

    The other day, I read something Shanti wrote about how Osho is more popular than ever. I don’t know if that is true or not. It’s not important. What’s important is to realise that a guru having a lot of followers equates to very little. Lots of fake gurus gathered many followers. Some truly enlightened people had a handful of followers.

    That Shanti believes having a lot of followers is important, and he does or why else proclaim such a thing on SN, it’s surely an indication that his take on things is quite superficial.
    When someone asked the beedie wallah how to recognise enlightened people he said that often they live quiet and peaceful lives. He did not mention anything about gathering a lot of followers, other than to say that it might be a good idea to avoid such a person.

    The idea that people do not appreciate a thing unless they pay for it was very much promoted by Osho. That is understandable. I do not think it is an absolute truth by a long shot. To take it as the absolute truth is an indication of stupidity, or in Shanti’s case self-inflicted brainwashing.

    I’ve no idea if Poonjaji was enlightened or not. The same goes for Osho. I am certain that I learned a lot from both of them. I’m grateful for that and paying or not paying for it had nothing to do with it.

    • swamishanti says:

      Lokesh chirped:
      -“The truth is that Poonjaji was not really a traditional Hindu at all, and neither was his mindset. He tended to wear Muslim-style clothes and was well travelled. His comfort zone was quite a humble one by most standards, both physically and psychologically speaking.”

      He was absolutely a traditional householder Hindu guru, Lokesh. His master was Ramana Maharshi, the traditional Hindu sage, whose picture was on his wall along with the Hindu symbol of Om, and Ramana’s methods he followed. Wearing Kurta doesn’t mean anything in an area with a strong Muslim influence such as Lucknow. Although I have seen photos of Poonja in jumper and jeans and trainers.

      “I have a close friend who lived for several years with Poonjaji. According to him, Papaji was not at all interested in accumulating money. Rich seekers offered donations to build an ashram, which he refused. The small pension he received from the army was what he lived on. He was quite frugal.”

      Oh goody. So what? So he is more appealing to those with a Christian conditioning that only the poor can enter the temple of God?

      Poonja wasn’t interested in larger projects such as building large communes for meditators with luxury facilities. He wasn’t interested in presenting a new vision, such as Osho’s ‘new man’ or ‘Zorba the Buddha’. That’s why he remains conventional, acceptable to the status quo, unthreatening and a traditional Indian Hindu householder guru.

      “The other day, I read something Shanti wrote about how Osho is more popular than ever. I don’t know if that is true or not. It’s not important. What’s important is to realise that a guru having a lot of followers equates to very little. Lots of fake gurus gathered many followers. Some truly enlightened people had a handful of followers.”

      Well, yes it is true. I have become aware that Osho’s popularity has increased manyfold since he left the body.

      Lokesh carries on: “That Shanti believes having a lot of followers is important, and he does or why else proclaim such a thing on SN, it’s surely an indication that his take on things is quite superficial.
When someone asked the beedie wallah how to recognise enlightened people he said that often they live quiet and peaceful lives. He did not mention anything about gathering a lot of followers, other than to say that it might be a good idea to avoid such a person.”

      Here there may be a misunderstanding, I never indicated that I believe that a guru having a lot of followers is important.

      In fact, I believe that gurus who have a lot of followers, such as the founder of ISKCON, Sri Prabhupada, were extremely low-grade, crappy and unenlightened. He gave a certain dogma for his followers to parrot, and encourage as many other people to get into as possible – the result is a large group of largely unintelligent fanatics who also are deluded into believing that they are very special and above all other groups. Well, a lot of what they have been taught is a load of old rubbish. It’s not really their fault, just how they’ve been trained.

      Buddha had ‘buddhi’ – intelligence- his statues depict him with long ear lobes which is a sign of ‘buddhi’- I also have quite long earlobes- yet many Buddhists have become fanatical and dogmatic, and lost their intelligence.

      I appreciate that Osho also wasn’t concerned with having a lot of ‘followers’, which he could have very easily done if he hadn’t pushed people out of their comfort zone.

      Osho’s growing popularity I do not see at all as a bad thing as far as the planet is concerned.
      Reading Osho generally results in people meditating, which ultimately means more people becoming enlightened, as well as a sharpening of intelligence. He was also careful not to leave a dogma.

      • Lokesh says:

        Shanti is constantly harping on about Osho’s ‘New Man’ or ‘Zorba the Buddha’, while being a perfect incarnation of an old man and absorba the bullshit.

        • swamishanti says:

          ‘Zorba the Buddha’ and the ‘New Man’ meant that it was no longer necessary to hammer nails into your penis, to struggle with the body to get enlightened – unless you want to, of course. It didn’t matter whether you lived in a cardboard box or enjoyed driving a Ferrari.
          It was ok for your girlfriend to be a Jamaican dancehall queen such as Lady Saw who sang
          ‘I want to fuck you with my heels on’ https://youtu.be/o8KDsSHVSnk, just as much as a Tibetan Buddhist nun who preferred celibacy most of the time.

        • Nityaprem says:

          Lokesh said, “Osho is constantly harping on about Osho’s ‘New Man’ or ‘Zorba the Buddha’, while being a perfect incarnation of an old man and absorba the bullshit.”

          It’s interesting, when the New Man came he took a different form than most were expecting. The Woke movement, indigo children, trans inclusiveness, a softer form of malehood, these are all things I’ve come across more lately.

          I think every era has its own New Man, it seems to change every 20-40 years or so. If you look back in history, the 1910’s generation had a different character than the 1920-1930 generation, which was different from the post WW2-generation.

          Certainly there seems to be a trend that the patriarchy is disappearing in the West, that is a good thing I think. Technology is also having tremendous impacts on education. And if you look at things like ChatGPT and Stable Diffusion, the role of AI is only set to increase. I was having a talk about philosophy with a chatbot called YouChat, and it was like talking to an oracle, and an incredibly knowledgeable and occasionally quite developed person.

          • dominic says:

            At the risk of straying into politically charged territory there’s a lot of woke brainwashing going on, and a lot of anti-male, anti-white, anti-patriarchy nonsense, which is not a good thing.

            And Osho had some really rubbish ideas too which he never practised. For example…
            “The world, the whole earth is ours. Wherever we want to be, it is nobody’s business to prevent us. Let there be freedom of movement. Let all the races, all the nations get mixed. And once the boundaries are not there, they will get mixed, they will spread all over the world – all kinds of races – and it will be a great experiment in crossbreeding. We will have better generations to come.”

            This is la la kumbaya land. Good fences make good neighbours.

            A bit like a multi-millionaire singing from his mansion, “Imagine no possessions…” or “All you need is love…” while being violent at home.

          • Lokesh says:

            “Lokesh said, “Shanti is constantly harping on about Osho’s ‘New Man’ or ‘Zorba the Buddha’….” ”

            The ‘New Man’ concept harks back to the time of Christ, and perhaps even further back.
            During the 20th century, Mr G and Mr O were talking about the New Man but had no qualms about saying that the idea came from The Gospels. As in…“Truly I tell you, unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

            It’s maybe a step up from being a born-again Christian to being a born-again sannyasin. I really don’t know. I’m more interested in who or what it is that was born in the first place. The Beedie Wallah pleaded “Not guilty” to being born. That’s a good one.

            • Nityaprem says:

              Lokesh said, “I’m more interested in who or what it was that was born in the first place.”

              There are a few people who talk about that, a guy called Michael Newton wrote a book called ‘Journey of Souls’ where he uses past life regression techniques to peer into the spaces between lives.

              In Buddhism there is a koan which goes, what is your face before your parents were born? Raises a few interesting questions, you were the glint in the glint in your four grandparents’ eyes.

              Personally, it makes me wonder whether the arising of a new wave on the ocean of consciousness is just a new expression of water that existed all along…nothing is created, nothing is destroyed.

              Now for a short musical interlude… something a bit more modern than Jefferson Airplane which the old fogeys around here seem to favour. The track is called ‘The Calling’ and has distinct spiritual overtones.
              https://youtu.be/4vxQ-ROStfU

            • Nityaprem says:

              If consciousness is neither created nor destroyed, then that which we are is also neither born nor dies. So the Beedie Wallah saying he wasn’t born makes a kind of sense.

              It goes back to what we are. We are not the body, we are not the senses, we are not the mind… Papaji says we are sat-chit-anand, Truth-Consciousness-Bliss. And he may well be right. Certainly the mind does its best to give us what we want, so be careful what you wish for.

              Just experiencing that we are not the body is a pretty big step. We are usually so bound to experiencing everything from the viewpoint of the body, so used to thinking of our head as the seat of our being, that it gets to be a habit.

              • satchit says:

                “If consciousness is neither created nor destroyed…”

                An experience is needed, otherwise it remains something like mathematics with a lot of ifs.

                • dominic says:

                  “An experience is needed”. You’re right about that, Satchit, except that it’s the ‘space’ in which all experience happens.

                  Your experience is always changing, whether ‘external’, through the senses, or subtle and internal, your thoughts and feelings.

                  What knows all those changing experiences? What doesn’t change, even as the body and mind change?
                  It’s not an object, so it can’t be grasped or understood, but all objects appear in it. The eye can’t see itself.
                  Attention is normally locked onto form and thinking, so we give some back to Being, the ‘I Am’, as medicine, with the least amount of effort. It’s never not here.
                  ~ Thus Spake Domthustra

                • satchit says:

                  “The eye can’t see itself.”

                  That’s wrong.

                  The experiencer can be experienced.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  By all means, Satchit, tell us how the experiencer can be experienced, if that which senses cannot be sensed.

                • satchit says:

                  But, NP, you have read so many books.

                  You must know what a spiritual experience is, don’t you?

                • Nityaprem says:

                  I know what a spiritual experience is, and plenty of info comes in through the senses. But about the experiencer I know nothing.

                • dominic says:

                  Your “wrong” is right, Satchit!

                  I can see from your avatar that your eyes are crossed in Shambhavi Mudra, and able to see each other, as your third eye opens, and you go into bliss.

                  I tried it, but it gives me a headache, and they got a little stuck!

              • dominic says:

                It’s rare to see this being expressed in a Hollywood movie. Well, here it is, the blanket truth, the big picture…
                https://youtu.be/hSdrwqLUpD0

              • dominic says:

                In popular song form, Leonard Cohen comes closest imo. He spent time as a zen monk and visited Ramesh in Bombay. Parmartha chose one of his songs for his funeral.
                https://youtu.be/2AMMb9CiScI

      • Nityaprem says:

        Let me put it this way: no book of Osho’s has ever inspired me to read it more than once. I’m now on my third reading of Papaji’s ‘The Truth Is’, and I’ve read Nisargadatta’s ‘I Am That’ at least twice, and I don’t feel I’ve exhausted either of those books.

        I’m still fairly new to non-duality, think I read my first book about two years ago, never yet made it to a satsang. But I will definitely try it out when a teacher I like comes visiting the neighbourhood.

        • dominic says:

          Excellent, you’re on the Highway to Hell…I mean the Self.
          If I may be so bold, to take a turn at being the dope dealer.

          There are hundreds of books and teachers, my current YouTube hit list includes the teachers you already mentioned, like Eckhart, Rupert, Adyashanti, plus Sarvapriyananda, Sunny Sharma, Simply Always Awake, Alex Shailer, Your Higher Self, Batgap, and…better stop there.
          You’ll find your own way. There’s never been a better time to awaken, at no expense, from the comfort of your own home.

          It’s good to balance understanding with practice, otherwise it stays stuck in the head, and all these people have excellent guided meditations.

          Remember, they’re all just waves, like yourself, in the Ocean of Being, and all characters in a movie, playing on the screen of your Awareness.

          Tat Tvam Asi.

          • Nityaprem says:

            I know Batgap, they do excellent interviews. I will check out some of the others once I’ve finished re-reading Papaji.

            I find it interesting how Osho seemed to pull people in, give them sannyas, and keep them in the movement while sending them back out in the world. To be dressed in red was a real statement for a while, it made clear what you stood for.

            The Advaita movement doesn’t do anything of the sort, it just allows people to come together in satsang, meetings in truth. There is no real outward sign of their feeling.

            • Lokesh says:

              NP, you are incorrect in drawing the following conclusion:
              “The Advaita movement doesn’t do anything of the sort, it just allows people to come together in satsang, meetings in truth. There is no real outward sign of their feeling.”

              1991 in Lucknow was one of my last great experiences in a gathering of spiritual people. So was the 50th anniversary of Woodstock bash in Las Dalias, Ibiza. But that was different.

              In Lucknow there were hundreds of wonderful people attending Poonjaji’s satsangs. A real gathering of the spirits. One morning, Poonjaji was reading out a six-page letter from someone in California. The old boy was a slow reader and the letter was full of spiritual cliches. It was tedious listening to it. Halfway through the letter, Poonjaji removed his reading specs and addressed the congregation seated before him. He said something along the lines of, “This is the great difficulty of the master. Trying to wake people out of their sleep of ignorance. It is so difficult.”

              He fell silent and a tear ran down his cheek. A tsunami of emotional energy washed over the satsang. It brought me to tears. It was so human, so real. And deeply moving. Everyone present felt this.

              Therefore to say, “There is no real outward sign of their feeling” in relation to the Advaita movement is a clear indicator that you have no idea what you are talking about, because it is simply untrue.

              • swamishanti says:

                Let’s face it, bald-headed Papaji with his small satsangs in his living room is a thing of the past.

                One of the best things to come out of Papaji may have been helping to create Mooji, who has developed a commune in Portugal, helped to get set up by some(one or two?) Osho sannyasins, if I remember correctly.
                I’ve heard some good reports.

                Of course, large communes need money to help set them up. Osho spoke about a futuristic vision of living in communes without money, but that was after they were already well established.

                By the way, for issues of hair thinning, I reccomend using Jamaican Black Castor Oil mixed with coconut oil.

              • The first one who tries to bully Lokesh’s devotional, emotional, Italian side will have to pass over my dead body.

            • dominic says:

              NP, when you say “the advaita movement” you’re referring to the neo-advaita gatherings in the West, I believe.

              Advaita Vedanta is as old as the hills and draws from the Vedas, Gita, Upanishads. There are several different schools in it, and they don’t all agree, just like Buddhism, so that you get duelling non-dualists.

              There are Sannyasin orders like Vivekanda’s who wear orange robes.
              It didn’t start with Papaji or Ramana or Nisargadatta, who helped popularise it to westerners.
              I think the robes was more of a marketing angle for Osho, and people grew tired of it eventually.

              Remember, after Oregon, when for a short period he told followers they could wear what they liked, and everybody cheered. He felt offended by that, and returned to a halfway house position, robes in the ashram, civvies outside.

              Who now wants to be bothered with all that malarkey, except for Indians and a few nutters (not mentioning any names!).

              The advaita scene is very varied, and there are gatherings where people do the ‘holy white’ dress code, and Mooji has malas I believe.
              You say, “It made clear what you stood for” – did it? Superficially, perhaps, to the outside world.

              Sannyas was a broad church, some folks were serious spiritual seekers, others were there more for the ‘Zorba’ aspect, the sex, drugs and partying, and everything in between.

              Dividing people up into in-groups and out-groups is passé for me, unless you’re in a monastic order.

              Some like to do it, I don’t have a problem with that, but advaita is looking at something deeper and more universal, so that a uniform wouldn’t really fit its ethos.

              Plus, the internet, rather than streetwear, markets everything to us these days, so there’s little need to be sashaying down Camden high street in orange togs, to get attention.

              • Nityaprem says:

                Dominic said, “I think the orange was more a marketing angle for Osho.”

                Maybe it was, but at the same time it also put a group of visible spiritual seekers out there on the streets in the West. That is not a small thing, and hasn’t been repeated since. It was a sign of those times, an opening up of spirituality and making it clear that it was good to discuss it.

                Interesting that there used to be orders of sannyasins, I was not aware of that, although I did know that Advaita Vedanta was quite old.

                I’m in two minds about monastic orders: on the one hand they allow spiritual seekers to congregate and seek solitude, and quite a few seekers even from America and England go to places like Thailand to become monks for a while. On the other hand, there’s vows and all that, of which I think, “If it doesn’t come from within, what is it worth to impose it?”

                • Nityaprem says:

                  It’s true that I tend to avoid big cities and certainly don’t sit in the Starbucks on Oxford Street to enjoy the chanting. But even then, I have seen an Osho sannyasin on the trains here more recently than I have a Thai Forest Order monk or any of the others. Could be chance I suppose ;)

                  I’m generally in favour of the new forms of spirituality, think it’s a good thing to shake the secular societies up a bit. LSD and mushrooms definitely have their part to play.

                  I don’t see monastic robes as a uniform, more as a statement of intent and commitment. Same with the sannyasins in red or orange.

                • dominic says:

                  Shocker, NP, are members of the Osho tribe still conspicuous in the wild in the West? Didn’t know that.
                  Are you also doing your bit then to “shake the secular societies up a bit” by dressing up?

                  It’s a fair point, “robes as a statement of intent and commitment. Same with the sannyasins in red or orange.”
                  From the inner perspective, it’s meant to symbolise that, from the outer view it will mean different things to different people: interesting, colourful, inspiring, traditional, brainwashed, groupthink, that cult from ‘Wild Wild Country’, or I’m-too-busy-with-my-life-to-even-notice. It will be a spectrum.

                  Still a uniform though, imo, which is, “an identifying outfit or style of dress worn by the members of a given profession, organization, or rank.”

                  Recently, The Hare Krishnas have had a bit of a makeover and are reaching out and hosting regular events like kirtans, in their ‘civvies’. This is clearly working for them, imo, and is less alienating than the shaved head and robes look.

                  In general, not looking like a ‘weirdo’ to western eyes will create less of a barrier to getting your message across, imo. Mindfulness didn’t really catch on until it got secularised.

                  But it’s all good, I don’t have any skin in the game, and also….

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Dominic said, “Shocker, NP, are Osho sannyasins still conspicuous in the wild..?”

                  Well, she was wearing a mala so it was a pretty safe bet. We had a fun conversation on the train from Leiden to Haarlem. I don’t wear orange myself (neither did she) so I made the contact.

                  But it’s interesting that the Hare Krishnas have also taken a step back from public wearing of robes. I know they have a centre in Amsterdam, but I’ve never visited there.

                • swamishanti says:

                  Well, the Hari Krishnas who preach in the street, trying to push copies of the ‘Bhagavad Gita As It Is’ – not an intelligent interpretation – are hardly inconspicuous. They are still shaven with the recognisable tuft of hair at the back.

                  I see them regularly, just the other day in fact, and avoid engaging in conversation with them.

                  Remember, if you choose to drive them over, grand theft auto style, you will likely get chased by the police. “If you can`t do the time, don`t do the crime.”

  19. VeetTom says:

    I don’t even know if all of my comments have survived the “awaiting moderation” because I can’t find them anymore in this chaotic mess…so I can’t see if anyone cares at all and reacted…I am lost in this jungle and give up again…maybe this is the set-up DEVICE… ;-) ?

    Rewind:
    Does anyone of you comment or reply on that small window at Caravanserai ? (That’s here for me – now). Or do you only (re-) act directly on that special chapter, thread, main article? How do you search for newest postings? How to comment or reply with the best flow? The routines here are weird … and I am confused as always – technically speaking.

    Today:
    I guess again one just follows the latest group-thread or topic always opended by Satyadeva – no matter if it might fit there or not…
    Replyng means your words will pop up somewhere in the middle of the thread and no one finds it – just the writer above?

    I tried to post an event, it simply disappeared…

    I commented on something like ‘Wild Wild Country’ – not to be found anymore…

    I am too stupid / or just moderated / or the board is heavily broken…

    House Of Mirrors….

    MOD:
    Veet Tom, the SN site is certainly in a poor technical condition, mostly, I’m told, due to using an outdated Word Press model that we have no means of repairing or updating. Eg, at the list of articles Satyadeva is credited as being responsible for every one despite having written none of them – impossible to rectify, apparently, and I hear SN is living on borrowed time, with more such dysfunction bound to occur.

    If you have trouble finding the latest posts check the time written at the top of each post.

    If you reply to a post it should be automatically placed directly below the one you’re responding to.

    No point trying to put something in a current topic if it’s not relevant to that topic or to what’s been said before, unless it’s particularly interesting.

    Certain posts of yours have been deleted, eg the two you sent today, as they weren’t considered relevant or interesting.

  20. VeetTom says:

    About psychedelic era content you may (again) dive into this one:
    Psych-Out 1968 (Director’s Cut 2015 Blu-Ray Edition) [HD] 1080p
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHcNjetHydM

  21. VeetTom says:

    As comments have been deleted I will leave this board for ever.

    Sannyas here again as an old-fashioned powered system by some mod and his followers is so old-school – no tear remains left.

    By head-oriented writiers who don’t care enough about their freedom.
    We had this before…Bye bye….

    Veet Thomas

    MOD:
    Veet Tom, your posts were left out as they weren’t relevant to the topic, and such music only posts are restricted anyway unless directly relevant to the discussion.

  22. How is it that other paths are dismissed squarely as ‘religious nuttery’?

    Swami Videha is a versatile meditation teacher of different paths and offers his teachings all under Osho’s guidance:
    https://www.oshonews.com/2023/01/25/atisha-the-seven-doors-to-meditation/

    Swami Nirodh before meeting Osho had blissful experiences when chanting Hare Krishna Mantras:
    https://www.oshonews.com/2023/01/23/nirodh/

    Note: I do not personally know any of these above guys and did not participate in any of the courses offered.

    ….

    • Nityaprem says:

      Are they really, Klaus? Osho talked in a positive way about many religious paths, like the Sufis, the Tao, Zen and others. I don’t see any need to talk about them derogatorily. There are even aspects of what he did not talk positively about, such as Christianity, which I have experienced in a good way: look at Anthony de Mello.

      One of my favourite Osho sayings is, “Learn from the Buddha, but don’t be a buddhist.” I think you can extend that to many religions, they left us many great teachers but you don’t have to get involved with the orthodox power structures and priests that have congregated around their legacies. You don’t have to fit in, and you certainly don’t have to give them authority over you. In a way, all organised religion is religious nuttery.

      I think the greatest responsibility we have is to our own evolution. For some people that starts with doing the Dynamic and throwing out all the rubbish. For others it is to live the one-ness, to realise that we are water as well as waves on the ocean of consciousness. The thing to watch out for is when you stop being creative.

      I like Swami Videha’s approach, it seems many-sided from the short write-up of his event on Osho News. It’s nice to see that people haven’t stood still in the time after Osho’s death.

      • NP,

        Could not have summed it up more nicely. ::))

        I also would quote Lokesh here:
        “Take the best. And forget the rest.”

        • Nityaprem says:

          The problem with “taking the best” is that it requires you to survey the whole field — knowing what is the best is not always easy. Which is why I’d say just absorb what resonates, whether that is Chuang Tzu or Zen; when you come across it accept it and see what your inner wisdom has to say about it.

          • Lokesh says:

            When I said, “Take the best. And forget the rest”, it was said in the context of relating to gurus and spiritual teachers.

            Taking the best means to extract what nourishes and casts light upon that which one needs to understand. To forget the rest implies that there are often elements around such people that one certainly does not need and are therefore best forgotten. This is not always the case, I was speaking in general.

            Osho provides a good example. He spoke about sex and how it should be taken as something sacred. Yes, that makes good sense. Then we hear about his behind-the-scenes hanky-panky with his female disciples. Forget it, other than to realize that gurus do not always practiSe what they preach.

            On that line we can move into Osho’s take on using drugs. He was basically anti-drug in his public stance and told people to drop drug use and start meditating. Good advice. Then Osho develops a taste for nitrous oxide and prescription tranquillizers, for whatever reasons he may have had. Forget it, other than to remember that talk is cheap and silence is golden. You can’t believe everything you see and hear, now can you?

            • satchit says:

              In my opinion, first one has to know something, so that one can forget it.

              Myself when I was at school I did know how to speak French.
              Now I have forgotten.

              So the question for me is:

              What do we know?

              As a result I must say, we don’t know.

              We don’t know about enlightenment, how it functions. And we don’t know if Osho or somebody else was enlightened, if enlightenment exists at all.

              We don’t know what happened behind the scenes and why he took drugs.

              So forgetting only makes sense if I know.

              If I don’t know, it makes no sense at all, at least for me.

              • dominic says:

                Let’s see I’ve got this.

                “There are known knowns, things we know that we know; and there are known unknowns, things that we know we don’t know. But there are also unknown unknowns, things we do not know we don’t know.” Then there are the forgotten known knowns, the forgotten known unknowns etc. As for enlightenment, we don’t know what it is….
                https://youtu.be/pOUilsuZj1E

                • Nityaprem says:

                  The best of Donald Rumsfeld…

                • Plus a Tibetan saying:

                  There are things that can never be known.

                  Ergo: We strive for the things that can be known.

                  No use striving for things that cannot be known.

                  @Lokesh

                  Great clarification here.
                  However, that is – more or less – how I took it.

                  When we find out about things one did not know before, it is better to stick with the positive experience one has got.
                  And not burden oneself.

                • To balance the yin and the yang a bit:

                  The best of Condi Rice.

            • dominic says:

              The era of gurus behaving badly seems to have peaked last century.
              In the digital age it’s hard to imagine such egregious behaviour not being outed for very long.

              But some still like to keep it old school.
              John de Ruiter, who drew sannyasins into his orbit, is back in the news.
              “Take the best and forget the molest?”
              Don’t think so, your Stariness.
              True to form, it’s the old, “I was shagging them for their enlightenment” defence.
              Karma’s a beatch!

              https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11679911/The-staring-cult-leader-charged-sex-attacks-four-female-followers.html

              • John de Ruiter has come free on bail:

                https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/john-de-ruiter-makes-first-court-appearance-book-author-says-women-in-oasis-have-been-traumatized-1.6249935

                I would say that he seems, imo, to be very lucky that ‘the ghost is making this kind of suggestion’. And is not challenging him with, mmmmhhh; beautiful guys and/or ‘ladymen’…

                Would he still do ‘it’ with the latter? If not, why not?

              • swamishanti says:

                God, reading the ‘Daily Mail’…no wonder Dominic’s moved back into the sheep herd.

                Those poor women have got it into their heads that it was something ‘bad’ just for having it off with him – and afterwards.

                It’s difficult when you are surrounded by the collective unconscious expectations of the herd mentality of the society, news propaganda machine, fake news, the old skool religious expectations of either celibacy or monagamy which are well out of date.

                Good to see that spiritual teachers are experimenting more with tantric energy experiments, polygamy, group sex, the wife included.

                • dominic says:

                  Now, now, SS, calm down, all that ranting can’t be good for your blood pressure.

                  It seems the topic of sex abuse (which may have contributed to one woman’s suicide) gets you quite aroused, and fantasising about every which way to get it on.

                  It’s a mystery why Osho called you Shanti, or was he having a laugh? Maybe it was a typo for Shag-ti.

                  Hopefully, it’s all working out for you, at least in your mind, and women are tearing your door down, for those “tantric energy experiments”.

            • Nityaprem says:

              Lokesh said, “He spoke about sex and how it should be taken as something sacred…”

              The best I’ve heard it said is that sex is the energy of life.

              Lokesh said, “…and then he developed a taste for nitrous oxide and prescription tranquillizers.”

              It seems to me that maybe the example worth following was that of the Vedas and its mystery ‘Soma’, or the reference to light-filled herbs as a path to enlightenment. Certainly psychedelics are much talked about but seem to be largely beneficial, if you take them as a teaching substance with proper preparation and aftercare.

              • swamishanti says:

                NP said:
                “Lokesh said, “…and then he developed a taste for nitrous oxide and prescription tranquillizers.” It seems to me that maybe the example worth following was that of the Vedas and its mystery ‘Soma’, or the reference to light-filled herbs as a path to enlightenment. Certainly psychedelics are much talked about but seem to be largely beneficial, if you take them as a teaching substance with proper preparation and aftercare.”

                Sure, psychedelics , and the legendary soma, have been used or experimented with historically on the path to enlightenment, and indeed, by some masters, such as Osho, even afterwards.

                But in Osho’s case, it appears to have happened spontaneously by his introduction to nitrous oxide from his dentist – a highly addictive drug.

                And it wasn’t what Osho was doing to attain enlightenment.

                Osho was already enlightened some 30 years before, already ‘dead’, as it were, before he decided to create his books dictated on nitrous oxide- which were originally intended to shock sannyasins with included photos of himself sitting in the dental chair. Sheela and the management managed to block the publication of the books for several years as he was officially meant to be in silence at that time, and perhaps for PR reasons.

                But Osho had no qualms about his reputation at that time. There was no ego which wanted to big itself up. On the contrary, he appears to have been doing the opposite.

                Not only was Osho fully enlightened before his arrival at the Ranch, he had actually merged with and helped several sannyasins to become enlightened before he even arrived at Rajneeshpuram.

                As he later said of those enlightened sannyasins, “their energies will be used.”

                As far as tranquillisers are concerned I believe he already had been introduced to those before Rajneeshpuram – for medical reasons.

                I think that was one of the most beautiful things about the story of Osho’s life, the way he came out and spoke under the influence of drugs at the Ranch now and again.

                Personally, I believe think he did end up overdoing it a bit with drugs at the Ranch, especially during the last couple of years. I don’t blame his doctor or dentist. Perhaps it was unfortunate it happened, it may have made him a bit complacent at the Ranch and caused many too doubt, but it appears to have been the way Existence wanted it to play the story out, as it were.

                And on the positive side, the nitrous books may have helped his movement not to become an organised religion; he didn’t want that, he didn’t want to be too respectable. Although his work continues through some of his enlightened disciples in their own way and that’s how I expect he would have wanted to it to be.

                I think that was one of the most beautiful things about the story of Osho’s life, the way he came out and spoke under the influence of drugs at the Ranch now and again.

      • dominic says:

        I think all paths and religions are an attempt to put the great unknown, the ocean, into a bucket.
        It cannot be contained, and is prior and beyond any formulations.

        The nature of human culture and wandering is to mix and cross-fertilise with other cultures.
        Osho hybridised Eastern spirituality with the western human potential movement, then sannyasins interbreed with neo-advaitins, bhaktas and other groups.

        There may be superficiality in all of this, but also good fruits, with the internet pushing this evolution into warp drive.

        Seeing the good, the bad and the ugly in all paths is legitimate.
        Osho did that with others, it’s also legitimate to do that with the Sannyas movement.

        Bhakti Yoga or devotion to a Guru appeals to some, perhaps it is the simplest way, but if you mistake a wave for the ocean, you might get stuck surfing only that wave, unable to enjoy the energy of other waves, pushing you forward, when that one is gone.

        • Nityaprem says:

          It seems to me that sannyasins have a kind of quiet within, a mixture of Osho’s silence with celebration, creativity, joy and love. There was something kind of blissful over those years.

          Even in Papaji’s book, ‘The Truth Is’, there is a long chapter about the satguru where he explains about the guru within, and the need for a physical guru if you feel you are the body (which most of us do).

          Sometimes I think that meeting Osho, even so early in life, was a lucky chance. To meet a living guru and to be initiated by him was special, even if his teaching was another attempt to put the ocean in a bucket.

          In a way, I think Osho’s discourses on the world’s religions were almost like a new starting point for religious thought, a clearing out of the old, a fresh take. Those times in the Buddha Hall, sitting on the cold floor waiting for him to come in….

        • satchit says:

          “Wanderer, there is no path.
          The path is made by walking.”

  23. Nityaprem says:

    Dominic said: “Osho hybridised Eastern spirituality with the western human potential movement, then sannyasins interbreed with neo-advaitins, bhaktas and other groups.”

    It’s a melting pot, where all kinds of Indian and eastern influences mix with western thinking. It still goes on, one of my cousins has been getting into spirituality and she has found a teacher who has been to Poona but never took sannyas, and who now teaches “personal coaching with consciousness learning”, which is very close to teaching non-duality. It’s a kind of merger of teaching spirituality with personal coaching, which you can charge money for, a bit of teaching the teachers if you will.

    The interviews at BatGap are a kind of cutting edge of evolution here, but the question is, is it going to concentrate or diffuse? There is a need to make a living, and not everyone can be a group leader or a therapist, and I can see some people not being really pure about it, treating spirituality as a side gig.

    • dominic says:

      It’s all good, evolution is picking up speed.

      5 years ago, in the dark ages, we thought there were only 2 genders, now there’s a 100 plus to choose from! Who knew?

      Have you noticed, how non-duality teachers on YouTube are getting younger?
      Soon they will be throwing a tiktok tantrum that Brahman, in the form of their mommy, is restricting their livestream, until they’ve done their homework. Mommy will have to back down of course, knowing her little enlightened one has hit 200,000 subscribers, and making a nice income from her Satsang.

      It’s an amazing time to be alive, where everything is everywhere, all at once, for the price of a click.

      • Nityaprem says:

        I’ve heard good things about that movie, I may spend the 10 euros to add it to my collection. Such is the price of a click, indeed.

        But I am taking a bit of a break from non-duality in particular and spirituality in general. It makes my head ache too much, which is not a good sign. Instead today I have been reading a few Ayahuasca trip reports, it’s a fascinating substance which seems to be a great way of working with your buried stuff.

        • dominic says:

          Even though it looks like Osho had a penchant for certain questionable drugs, he was quite positive about their mind expanding benefits, unlike other gurus like Krishnamurti who disapproved.
          Most of those, I suspect had little or no experience, and were/are talking through their butt cheeks.

          Psychedelics and plant medicine use is happening under the radar in the West, but with enough research and data, it could get legalised in the near future and benefit more people.

          Pari, who ran this site with Parmartha, before he also died, wrote his second book about his trip reports.

          https://o-meditation.com/2012/06/12/the-attraction-for-drugs-is-spiritual-osho/

          • swamishanti says:

            Yes, it appears he got well into the properties of nitrous oxide, as it were. Whatever the downers, I expect he just enjoyed the high and probably binged on them now and again, more than he needed to, and asked for high doses just for fun around that time.

      • Lokesh says:

        I tried watching that movie but could not get into it. Is it any good?

        • dominic says:

          I suspect not, the bad reviews on imdb have put me off bothering for now. It’s free to watch on amazon prime, or elsewhere if you’re a buccaneer. I just liked the scifi multiverse concept and the title which sums up our new global digital interconnectedness, and the relative nature of space/time, according to nondual thinking, and ‘quantum mechanics’, which I’m sure we’re all familiar with ;)

          Last thing I’ve been watching is ‘The Lotus Eaters’ which is a clever dark comedy series set in a luxury hotel spa in Hawaii. At one point a guest gets a healing which involves chanting the Gayatri Mantra, which shows how this stuff is percolating into the general culture.

  24. Nityaprem says:

    I’ve recently come across a condition they call “la claridad” in South America, which translates as ‘the clarity’. It seems to be a special kind of ego inflation related to the feeling of knowing the truth, it manifests as a conviction that you have special knowledge. These are some hallmarks…

    * Messianic discourses, sermons from the mount, guru-downloads
    * A sense of knowing it all, having seen it all, everyone else’s words seem inferior
    * a sense of having a deeper knowledge and wisdom than others, usually without being able to express it clearly
    * Judgement toward others’ experiences or methods of self-expression when actually not having understood the depth or value of the communication (clipping the signal).
    * Conviction of having gone through experiences ‘deeper’, ‘greater’, ‘more powerful’ than anyone else
    * Having been confronted with an ‘unveiling’ which separates one from the crowd
    * A flighty employment of various concepts to bludgeon other people into conceptual submission (this can be ‘logic’, ‘reason’, the gospels, or often a kind of airy, lofty ‘spiritual sophisticate’ slant on things…).

    It made me wonder if perhaps a lot of gurus suffer from this. It might well be associated with a lot of spiritual revelations? Some of these things even Osho exhibited….

    • dominic says:

      “Some of these things even Osho exhibited.”

      I think you’re onto something, NP. Gurus and their enlightened egos, or even their followers getting inflated egos, from being so special for picking the bestest and most sexually free guru that has walked the earth (in their minds).

      Can’t think of anybody like that here though, can you?

      • swamishanti says:

        Arpana sent me this: “Nityaprem unwittingly describes Lokesh:”

        “* Messianic discourses, sermons from the mount, guru-downloads
        * A sense of knowing it all, having seen it all, everyone else’s words seem inferior
        * a sense of having a deeper knowledge and wisdom than others, usually without being able to express it clearly
        * Judgement toward others’ experiences or methods of self-expression when actually not having understood the depth or value of the communication (clipping the signal).
        * Conviction of having gone through experiences ‘deeper’, ‘greater’, ‘more powerful’ than anyone else
        * Having been confronted with an ‘unveiling’ which separates one from the crowd
        * A flighty employment of various concepts to bludgeon other people into conceptual submission (this can be ‘logic’, ‘reason’, the gospels, or often a kind of airy, lofty ‘spiritual sophisticate’ slant on things…).”

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