The unimportance of time and physical presence with a Master – after the connection has been established

Many times at SN there are those who are drawn back to the apparent securities of Pune 3, Pune 2 and Pune one, and those blissful thoughts one feels are based largely on the then physical presence of the Master. But maturity needs must take one beyond that?

This thirst for what was in the physical presence of the Master is understandable, but certainly Osho in many moods did not let one rest in such securities. For example the refutation below.  (Parmartha) 

Osho is asked a question: Last night you spoke of satsang and the importance of the disciple’s proximity to the guru. Does this mean physical proximity? Is the disciple who lives at a great physical distance from the guru at a loss?

Yes and no! Yes, a physical closeness is necessary in the beginning because you cannot understand anything else right now, as you are. You can understand the body; you can understand the language of the physical. You exist at the physical, so yes, a physical closeness is necessary – in the beginning.

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Osho at age 21

And I say no also because as you grow, as you start learning a different language which is of the non-physical, then physical closeness is not necessary. Then you can go anywhere. Then space doesn’t make any difference. You remain in contact. Not only space, but time also doesn’t make any difference. A Master may be dead, you remain in contact. He may have dropped his physical body, you remain in contact. If a trust happens, then time and space both are transcended.

Trust is the miracle. You can be in closeness with Mohammed or Jesus or Buddha right now if trust is there. But it is difficult! It is difficult because you don’t know how. You cannot trust a living person, how can you trust a dead? If trust happens, then you are close to Buddha right now. And for persons who have faith, Buddha is alive. No Master ever dies for those who can trust. He goes on helping; he is always there. But for you, even Buddha is there physically, standing behind you or in front of you, just sitting by your side, you are not close to him. There may be vast space between you. Love, trust, faith, they destroy space, time, both.

In the beginning, because you cannot understand any other language, you can understand only the language of the physical, physical closeness is necessary – but only in the beginning. A moment will come when the Master himself will send you away. He will force you to go away because that too becomes necessary – you may start clinging to the physical language.

Gurdjieff almost always, all his life, will send his disciples away. He will create such a miserable situation for them, then they will have to leave. It will be impossible to live with him. After a certain point, he will help them to go away. He will force really them to go away, because you should not become too much dependent on the physical. The other, the higher language, must develop. You must start feeling close to him wherever you are, because body has to be transcended. Not yours only, the Master’s body has also to be transcended.

But in the beginning it is a great help. Once the seeds are sown, once they have taken root, then you are strong enough. Then you can go away, and then you can feel. Just going away, the contact is lost – then the contact is not much importance. Trust will grow, further you go away. Trust will grow more, because wherever you are on the earth you will feel the Master’s presence continuously. The trust will grow. He will be helping you now through hidden hands, invisible hands. He will be working upon you through your dreams, and you will feel constantly, like a shadow, he is following you.

But that is a very developed language. Don’t try it from the very beginning because then you can deceive. So I will say, move step by step. Wherever trust happens, then close your eyes and follow blindly. Really, the moment trust happens you have closed your eyes. Then what is the use of thinking, arguing? Trust has happened and trust will not listen to anything now.

Then follow and remain close unless the Master himself sends you away. And when he sends you away then don’t cling. Then follow. Follow his instruction and go away, because he knows better. And what is helpful he knows.

Sometimes, just near the Master, it may become difficult for you to grow – just like under a big tree a new seed will have many difficulties to grow. Under a big tree, a new tree will become crippled. Even trees take care to throw their seed far away so that the seeds can sprout. Trees use many tricks to send the seed away; otherwise they will die, they fall down just under the big tree. There is so much shadow. No sun reaches there, no sun rays reach.

So a Master knows better. If he feels that you should go away, then don’t resist. Then simply follow and go away. This going away will be coming nearer to him. If you can follow, if you can silently follow without any resistance, this going away will be a coming nearer. You will attain a new closeness.

Osho, Yoga: The Alpha and the Omega, Vol 1, Ch 2, Q 5

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101 Responses to The unimportance of time and physical presence with a Master – after the connection has been established

  1. shantam prem says:

    What about those people who are getting initiated after the death of Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Nanak and the phenomenon of 20th century, OSHO?!

  2. Lokesh says:

    I read this article three times and then studied certain paragraphs. I think I attended the discourse from which the quote is extracted.

    The first thing that comes to mind is how much my life has changed since I heard those words. At the time they were moving, full of significance and I could relate to what Oslo was saying 100%. Today, I can still relate to this article, but in a very different way.

    The word trust in relation to the master comes up a lot and I no longer have a need to feel some kind of special trust towards any master, alive or dead. Something the Beedie Wallah said hovers in the back of my mind in relation to how he trusted what his guru told him and how he stuck with that until he became a master in his own right.

    He also said that anyone who tells you the real master is external to one’s self is a deceiver. I believe that and yes, I trust he was telling the truth.

    The idea of somehow trusting Osho now actually feels quite alien to me. I am no longer sure what that actually means or why I would have to trust him. There no longer seems to be any need for such a personified trust in my life. I would be interested to hear from other bloggers why they experience the need to trust Osho today.

    Trust is always present in our lives. You trust the other drivers on the road, the doctor, your friends, the cook in the restaurant and many people in a million and one ways. We are a very trusting species on many levels, if you think about it.

    This morning I went for a swim with a friend. The sea was like an aquarium. Crystal clear with many schools of shiny silver fish darting this way and that. Deeper down poseidon grass swayed gently as barracudas prowled the shadows. Perfect swimming conditions. My friend signalled that he had had enough and was heading back to shore. I gave a thumbs up and headed out into the open sea. At this time of the year I keep my eyes peeled for dolphins, determined to keep my cool next time I meet one. My mind considered the question of trust…

    I thought, here am I out in the big blue with no one else around. If something goes wrong in my body, like a minor stroke or something, I would die out here. I am not sticking to the shoreline because I trust that everything will be all right, even were I to suffer a stroke, drown and sink to the bottom. After all, I am doing what I love, death is one day inevitable, so what better way to go?

    I believe this is trusting in life in a very tangible and fundamental way. Osho says, “You can be in closeness with Mohammed or Jesus or Buddha right now if trust is there.” This might well be true, but I do not experience the need for it. It actually sounds absurd to me. I would much rather feel close to myself.

    Osho concludes, “So a Master knows better. If he feels that you should go away, then don’t resist. Then simply follow and go away. This going away will be coming nearer to him. If you can follow, if you can silently follow without any resistance, this going away will be a coming nearer. You will attain a new closeness.”

    It is not difficult to understand what Osho means by this. I find it questionable. I ask myself, is it not better simply to trust life, without the need of a specific form like a guru or spritual teacher? If trust is so important why not simply trust, full stop?

    The bottom line is that I very much doubt I would have this quality of trust in my life today without having spent all those years trusting Osho. Such is life.

    • Arpana says:

      If you really are above all this, why do you need to keep telling us? This is just another of your lengthy bits of fluff in which you share with us, yet again, how above Sannyas, sannyasins and Osho you are.

      We are convinced. You obviously, given how often you tell us, are not.

      • shantam prem says:

        Arpana, can you see your bitchiness or are you blinded like priests in Pakistan?

        This article is for many days on the wall. Why you have not responded a single sentence over your master´s cut piece? At least, you could have written “Wow, splendid, heavenly.”

        Lokesh has taken the time and expressed his point of view in a well written prose and you, with Satanic attitude, trying to bring master as your protector.

        I feel such reactionary ways very childish.

    • shantam prem says:

      Heartwarming, sincere prose.

    • swamishanti says:

      Yes, the Beedie wallah did say that “anyone that tells you that the real master is external to one’s self is deceiving you”, and he was always banging on about how “you are That”, yet he also kept the ritual of lighting incense and ringing bells in front of a picture of his own master in his puja room, every evening. In a very Indian, devotional way. Or “vay”, as the they would say in Bombay.

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        Thanks, Swamishanti, for letting us know about this small incident (evening rituals) in Beedie Wallah´s life.

        The celebration of a paradox, and how beautiful is that.

        Madhu

    • Parmartha says:

      Thanks for your efforts of reflection on this text of Osho, Lokesh.

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Yes, Lokesh, I joined Kavita with my gratefulness about your ‘breaking through on this thread’ at the first read of your response. And what a – by now – even familiar feeling.

      Could very well relate, I feel, to what you described about your long-term-swimmings, although by now it seems ridiculous facing my very now ´body-state-affairs´.

      About some forty years ago, staying alone on my favourite island of Formentera, I passed through a kind of ´near-death-danger situation, out swimming in the sea, being taken irresistably by the waves, experiencing then in utter clearness, the need to stop fighting – as also that there is something, some energy far beyond my comprehension, to take care of ´me´, either way..My very being heard that counsel, then and there.

      I had not been up to risking anything; that just happened. And there are two, three incidents like that, more before than after.

      Lokesh, I simply love the ´bottom line(s) of your post. And your way of sharing here.

      Madhu

  3. Kavita says:

    Thank you, Lokesh, for sort of a breakthrough on this thread; I too read it many times but then just couldn’t think further every time, but after reading your sharing I can relate to what you say.

    Also think it is mostly not possible to arrive here with such clarity without going through the whole Master-Disciple process. Yes, such is life!

  4. shantam prem says:

    And poor those who have no master will never be able to feel the true taste of Trust.

    Because my sympathy goes mostly for the underdogs, that is why one of the joys is to presume people in the train have no master; maybe that is why they look so smart and up-to-date and also Trustworthy.

    It is almost a well known fact, disciples of Osho have more doubt among each other than Jews and Muslims…

    Meditation, Master, Mama Mia….

  5. Bong says:

    Finally, a consensus.

    You can’t take Ego with you, neither can you take an external Master. The Master is part of you, if you don’t know this, you don’t know Master. Now, help me, help you.

    MOD:
    PLEASE EXPLAIN LAST SENTENCE, Bong.

    • Tan says:

      Bong,
      Baaaannnng!
      You are absolutely right, in my experience and many others’.

      Exactly, the master is part of us, how can we separate? Impossible! It is like separating the sugar of the water, after they merge….

      Cheers!

  6. Arpana says:

    WHY ARE THE ASHRAMITE SANNYASINS NOT ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN ALL THE MEDITATIONS? WHY ARE THEY TOLD TO PARTICIPATE IN ONLY ONE MEDITATION EVERY DAY?

    http://copytaste.com/au8133

    • Parmartha says:

      Have not read the text, Arps.

      I never felt this need myself when I was an ashram/commune worker to formally meditate.

      I always felt it was some kind of misunderstanding. The work simply became my meditation, in fact anything can become a meditation from the right mind-set.
      Was this also your experience?

      • Arpana says:

        I had some wonderful moments working; engaged in what might be called mundane tasks, the way I could be engaged, lost in the mundane as a kid. (I use ‘mundane’ advisedly now).

        While I was there, everything was as it was; but after my return I found out, and eventually faced up to the fact, life would never be the same again.My life as it had been was over, bar the struggling.

  7. Parmartha says:

    If one is connected to Osho in some way, even in the way that Lokesh seems to be simply by being here, then once the connection is made, maybe it can never be broken, even after enlightenment!

    To me, the beauty of this piece from Osho is that it reminds me that the world is wide, and ten acres of land in a suburb of Pune, India is really not special, especially as it now lies in a heavily polluted belt.

    Hence for devotees like Shantam Prem the text here must confuse them becuase their whole conscious life, from dawn to dusk, seems to be directed towards the ‘repossession’ of the ashram..! But clearly, their Master here is saying it does not matter at all.

  8. Simond says:

    I recognise differing levels of trust. As Lokesh mentioned, we trust the drivers on the road and we trust the cook in a restaurant.

    As to the trust required of a disciple to a Master, we are now talking at a different level completely. Today, for me and for many others that I meet, the concept of the all-knowing Master is part of of history. We’ve all seen how such trust is abused and misunderstood, whether it be Oshso’s trust of Sheela, or the misplaced trust of disciples who have been under the thumb of loads of eastern and western teachers or Masters.

    The surrender of disciple to Master, whilst he is alive and you are present with that teacher, is one many of us here on SN have been through. The recognition that the teacher knows something you don’t is part of that trusting process. He teaches, I am the student. It was a valuable process, in the same way that any student must trust the teacher of any subject, if he is to learn anything.

    But as we mature, so the relationship changes. And great teachers allow for this. We must question everything, including the teacher and what he teaches. Is the teacher living what he teaches? Is my trust in him a deflection from my need to become a real authority myself? Is simple trust enough? It can so easily become the stuff of faith and hope.

    In the case of Osho, who was steeped in the mystery of the East, the idea that I should trust Him, as my own understanding developed, gradually faded.

    Futhermore, as I came into contact with other teachers and so-called Masters so I found myself questioning everything they said. Many offered a new or differing understanding, but each had to be questioned thoroughly personally.

    Now, I might say, everyone is my teacher, and I’m discovering the truth as a living experience each moment. It’s not always easy, it would be easier to trust God, Buddha or Osho, but they no longer exist, except as memories in my head.

    • frank says:

      I`m going to follow Osho`s guidelines here.
      I trust Mohammed, Jesus and Buddha.

      Free wine on tap in the Allah Ak-Bar, chilled-out harp music in the background, no more suffering and a truckload of hotties gagging for it and just waiting for me drop by…
      What`s not to trust?

    • Arpana says:

      You can’t help yourself, can you, Rev. Simond?
      This is such a bloody sermon. You’ve been a frocked priest at some time in your life. Must have been.

      As to trust, yes, different levels of trust. I agree; and I don’t trust you or Lokesh at all.

      To me, you are both self-serving and self-deceiving, in a way that is only surpassed by Shantam here at Sannyas News.

      • satyadeva says:

        But Arps, why expect what’s true and right for you to be true and right for everyone else? And why take it so personally, why such anger?

        Your personal way seems fine, as apparently, it works for you, as do those of both Lokesh and Simond. There’s more than one way to scale a mountain – and the view can look very different from various vantage points.

        Look, for instance, at the very differing advice given by Osho to people in darshan, according to their needs and requirements, as he perceived them.

        If you feel somehow personally threatened, perceiving that something profoundly precious to you is being publically undermined, why not look into that and see how and why? Perhaps you might find it’s just a shadow you’re fighting….

  9. shantam prem says:

    Billions of people have the notion they have connection with Buddha, Jesus, Ganesha, Shiva and their trust level is simply superb.

    Parmartha may tell me a single instance where a refugee from Syria who has lost the whole family has lost trust in Prophet or Islam. Single Instance!

    Just during last year, thousands of Yazidi people have preferred to be killed but have not lost their trust in the founder of their religion. They have not converted but died. I will call them martyr of Trust.

    I sometime wonder what are the credentials of Sannyas collective to brag about anything anymore.

    • satyadeva says:

      Perhaps you, Shantam, and the “billions” who you say demonstrate this sort of “trust” need to ask themselves why then the world is in such apparently terminally dire straits.

      I suggest the answer is strongly connected with such “trust” being overwhelmingly born from desperation, lack of intelligence and laziness, plus a key factor, thanks to the world’s vested interests, of never having been told the truth of life and love (and death) by a living Master.

      It’s not genuine trust, it’s clinging to the need for ‘consolation’ in the face of actual and potential suffering.

      You, Shantam, have lived in a Master’s energy field, so I’d say your version is due to one or all of the preceding three factors. Which, of course, is confirmed by the nature of the vast majority of your writings here.

      • anand yogi says:

        Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!

        Again you expound the wisdom of mighty Bhorat directly from the beyond and the behind! And the odour is there for all to imbibe!

        Those Swamis and Mas who are from Queen´s Britain and are enjoying free flow of hospitality there have no idea of trust! You, Shantambhai, holy refugee, have shown yourself to be a veritable martyr of trust!

        Do not be modest, Bhai! You certainly have the credentials to brag about whatever you wish! That is what those free pills from western hospitality do to you!

        You have not fallen at the feet of abc South Indian Ammas but have trusted deeply in a North German Mutti Merkel!

        Your unswerving trust has been rewarded time and time again as you wait in deep meditation every week for your social security payments to go into your account!

        And every week the man who wears the soil of mighty Bhorat on his holy underwear like a badge is rewarded for his superb act of deep religious faith!

        These western baboons and subjects of Her Majesty cannot understand! It is for this reason that when IS (Indian Sannyas) takes over the ashram under the authority of Abu Thakkar and Shantambhai and restore ashram to days when prophet (glory be to his holy name) was still alive and following the diktat of Al Bhagdaddy, the faithless goras will no longer be allowed in but every IS member must marry a Yazidi girl who is ready to die for her master at any moment!

        These untrusting western women who have made your life a misery know nothing of the wisdom of mighty Bhorat such as the discipline of the Five Skandhas!

        They are following the Five Fs!
        Find `em, Fool`em, Fuck `em, Fleece `em and Forget `em!

        The day is coming, Bhai!mAs a result of your superb levels of trust, your vision, which is Osho`s vision, will come to pass!

        The Golden Temple, but with extra shagging!

        Yahoo!
        Thakkar Akbar!

      • shantam prem says:

        I wonder from where SD kind of people get contempt for others. I wonder what kind of creative contribution they have to the world at large other than being the readers of some kind of literature from esoteric bookshops or being in the concert-like atmosphere of some wise men and women.

        It is still very rare to see original thinking or capacity to analyse crisis situation of today with the insights specially tailor-made for today in majority of people who swear by their years and months spent in the company of A, B, C kind of enlightened or awakened beings. Whom we want to befool by living in the castles built with ready-made answers.

        • Arpana says:

          I wonder from where Shantam kind of people get contempt for others. I wonder what kind of creative contribution they have to the world at large other than being the readers of some kind of literature from esoteric bookshops or being in the concert-like atmosphere of some wise men and women.

          It never happens original thinking or capacity to analyse crisis situation of today with the insights specially tailor-made for today from Shantam who swears by months spent in Poona at the end of the eighties. Shantam living in the castles built with ready-made answers.

        • satyadeva says:

          Your second paragraph could hardly fit you more perfectly, Shantam, congratulations!

          You do realise though, that the only “crisis situation of today” that is actually important to you (or anyone) is the one that permeates your own life, which, btw, has nothing whatever to do with what you think, imagine and believe is the problem?

          No? Well, what a surprise!

  10. Tan says:

    Talking about closeness/trust made me remember Osho telling us something about it. I will try to repeat it here, with my own words, and correct me if I am mistaken:
    “When you meet a Master, there are only two ways: you can merge straight away with the Master and the awareness will come, on its own accord, in the end.
    Or:
    You can start being aware and the merging with the Master will come at the end, on its own accord.”

    And I remember Osho saying as well: “In either path, everything can be aborted, depending on you, maybe you won’t reach to the end.”

    Cheers!

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Tan,

      ´Trust´ ?, ´Closeness´? An achievement ??

      We come into this world in the body with very different ´trust-equiment´, I presume. At the core of this invisible essential quality lies a knowing: I am meant to BE (exist) – and humans, as well as other animals – yes, maybe even any other living form – need to be provided with that quality.

      Is not that so?

      Humans come – for quite a time – very, very fragile into this world of bones and flesh, and if not provided by other humans (or wolves…) with touch and nourishment they simply disappear (die).

      Trust and Closeness are not achievements, I would say; it is something we come with into this very body (to a certain amount, I guess) and that essential quality can be either nourished or challenged up to being harmed and destroyed very badly.

      And by that I mean any human inter-actions where individuals or whole societies deny another individual or groups or whole populations the right to exist and to live.

      In some remote African tribes, I have heard, where superstitions are still full on board, they are still into killing, annihilating other human beings by simply outcasting an individual out of ´the group´, without doing any visible bodily harm to him or her, simply declaring him or her dead (in the eyes of the majority). It is said that it takes only a little, little while before this outcast dies.

      We call ourselves civilised, don´t we? We don´t do such a nasty stuff. But that´s a lie. We do. Only covering it up in many ways.

      The more a group, a society, is into sharing and acknowledging ´the other´, the more civilised it is in my eyes.

      We are living – that concerned – in precarious times. Indians say ´Kali Yuga´, a Dark Age.

      At any time, there have been and are happening Humans, rare, but they have been and are happening. Sharing their Being and Light of Conciousness in abundance. In Love to mankind. Osho is one of those.

      And for me, He is one who is reaching this invisible core ´equipment of Trust´. However, to see that, and maybe more important. to feel that and respond, one has to acknowledge beforehand that we have it, that we came with it.

      And I would say, Tan, we are not able to ´abort´ that very essence, how you did put it, making it then into a kind of ´achievement´, like so much other stuff we come to learn while existing in the body.

      That´s how I, at least, interpreted ´Bong´s words….

      Madhu

      • Tan says:

        Madhu,
        I quite agree with you that the human race is one of the weakest races in this world. We really need care when being born and long afterwards.

        My post about trust and closeness is only applied when meeting a Master, and I was talking about individuals.

        About ‘aborting’, I only heard Osho saying it. And if I am not mistaken, it was in the talking that Frank boy freaked out: about a dead baby; and if my memory is right, Osho said,”Don’t bother, it was born dead”. He was talking about love, etc….

        Cheers! X

  11. shantam prem says:

    Someone from the Sannyas scene has written on facebook, “A living master never dies.” My point: Were those idiots who dropped Jesus to follow Osho?

    Let me ask my fellow bloggers, what is their take about this centuries-old myth or mystery now growing around late Shri Osho Ji?

    • Kavita says:

      I don’t know what your point is, frankly!

      The only answer, if I get it, is in reality no one is born into any religion & the only real religion, if at all there is any, is to be your own religion. & that is what the Real Master is pointing out, I guess, not to aspire for followers & create a religion for others to follow.

      If Osho is/was trying to do that, I would like to disassociate with such an Osho!

      • shantam prem says:

        “Osho never aspired for followers, he was interested only in friends.”
        Someone can find out some quotation in this regard.

        About Real Masters:
        General opinion is, “In the crowd of masters, there are only two Real Masters. First one is mine and second one of my girlfriend.”

        If people are really smart they won´t even think about real masters. I don´t think Nature has planned any such relation of institution.

        Teachers, professors, masters seems to be part of the similar profession. Once they die, they die.
        And if someone thinks any one of them is alive post-demise, RELIGION IS BORN.

        • satyadeva says:

          Osho’s either alive in you, or he’s not, Shantam.

          By your comments I take it he isn’t.

          Pretty inevitable really, given how you’ve allowed yourself to be consumed by complaint and associated discontent for so many years. Not to mention the compensatory self-delusion broadcast in almost all of your unintelligent outpourings here.

          But I doubt if you even get the point. How could you, in your condition?

        • Kavita says:

          “If people are really smart they won´t even think about real masters. I don´t think Nature has planned any such relation of institution.”

          Well, seems only unsmart persons can be natural!

      • swamishanti says:

        There is the `way of the heart` and the `way of the head`. Osho talked about both ways, as well as a third aspect, the “vitness”, or guru Shaktshat.

        He put a lot of emphasis on this “vitness” in the last years, and this is similar to Buddha.

        A master like Jesus, I would say, was more interested in connecting in a heart-based way, and I have met a few Christians who still feel a connection to Jesus.

        • swamishanti says:

          I also know a few Hari-Krishnas who also feel connected to Krishna, but the thing with both Hari krishnas and Jesus freaks is, they both usually want to get as many people into their thing as possible.

          The master has been gone physically for a long time, and they are attached to their books.

        • Tan says:

          Thanks, SS.

          Do you reckon that the “vitness” way is just a ‘help’ for both ways or is it a ‘path’ on its own?

          Cheers! XX

          • swamishanti says:

            I think the `vitnessing` is enough on its own, I reckon that the bhakti type does not need the `vitness`, but it can be combined with it.

            And different combinations and cocktails are also possible. For example, Ranjit Maharaj from Mumbai, a fellow-disciple of the same master as the Beedie Wallah, started his life feeling very devotional to Krishna, later to end up as enlightened teacher of Advaita Vedanta.

            The same with Poonjaji, apparently.

            And Shankara, one of India`s famous philosophers, and a more recent exponent of Advaita Vedanta, who was very intellectual in the day, travelled around arguing his thing with people, and in the night he would cry and sing and compose love bhajans in the temple.

            • Arpana says:

              Passive witnessing and active witnessing I would like to add. Passive being that unceasing, accepting awareness of the inner world, and active when deliberately turning awareness in a more focused way to someone or something specific, usually troubling, or something that I judge in myself, in my case.

  12. shantam prem says:

    Satyadeva waits anxiously when Shantam will write something. His brain is incapable to think and write anything on its own.

    It seems there are people in Britain without any sense of dry or wet humour. If someone cannot understand irony, I am sure understanding spirituality too will be a time pass subject. Such people should concentrate on theology.

    • satyadeva says:

      But Shantam, as I’ve said before, your “irony” is so well camouflaged that it’s extremely hard to spot. Indeed, there’s no discernible difference between your self-proclaimed attempts at “irony” and the rest of your posts. Especially as among your chief characteristics as a writer are lack of clarity, self-contradiction and blatant confusion.

      Far from ideal for a man who wants to run the Pune ashram – but perhaps that idea too is just you being ironic? Monumentally misguided as it is, it has to be, I guess.

      I repeat, until you improve your style you need to advise readers of your intentions, eg by writing, as an introduction. preferably in capital letters, ‘PLEASE NOTE: THIS POST IS SUPPOSED TO BE IRONIC’.

      Otherwise, your efforts are doomed to failure, I’m afraid. Rather like the rest of your unsatisfactory life for which you insist on blaming others. Time to be responsible, I suggest.

      • shantam prem says:

        I have very unsatisfactory life, I have no girlfriend rich like Kim Kardashian. I never had a girl friend whose popo was like Pippa´s, because I lived so unsatisfactory life I could not become investment banker!

        SD, do some experiment in London and see with open eyes and write your observations, “What kind of people seems like living very satisfactory life?”

        People who live satisfied never look at calendar, “When will come Some Amma from India to give me a hug?”

        • satyadeva says:

          Ah, but Shantam, there’s a dissatisfaction born of ‘divine discontent’, where basic and more than basic needs have been met, and where the individual takes responsibility for his/her condition and situation.

          And there’s a dissatisfaction that’s simply ‘unhappiness’. where a person is plagued by deficiency in key areas and offloads his/her frustration and anger by continually blaming what’s wrong with his/her life on others and on ‘circumstances’. And as such becomes, largely, a pain in the neck, a crushing bore.

          Compounding the problem, such a person will even discount the free, selfless help offered by a living Master of Love, thinking “that stuff’s only for losers, not ‘satisfied’ people like me.”

          (To clear any arising confusion in you, Shantam, the second category is where you’re at).

          • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

            My question to you, Satyadeva (also to editors or moderators here), this very evening is:
            Why do you feed a troll the way you do?

            And by that I mean share psychological-looking ‘readings’ with a writing entity who (or which?) will never, ever relate to that, let alone respond or relate to the topic?

            Madhu

            • satyadeva says:

              I’d have thought you, Madhu, with all that ‘psychological’ training you’ve done, plus all your life experience, would know why I keep on at Shantam: I simply enjoy it, it makes me feel better!

              As one of the great benefits bestowed by the ongoing presence of, to use Lokesh’s term, a “village idiot”, is that he makes one feel, by comparison, ‘superior’.

              I may not be anything much in the psycho-spiritual sphere, in fact I may well have got absolutely nowhere, wallowing in un-transcended mind and emotion every single day – but at least, coming to SN every day, I’m made aware that there’s someone even more ignorantly stupid than me, someone who clings to that advanced degree of foolishness even more stubbornly than I do.

              I’m rather surprised you seem to have missed that one….

              • swamishanti says:

                Can you two just do a few more rounds? I`ve got a compilation disc coming out soon….

              • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                Did neither miss your arrogance, Satyadeva, nor your diligently composed sarcasm in your responses – also those when you are addressing me in particular.

                Like now. With this one.

                If you – or others – do enjoy this kind of repetitive exchange I was referring to, I simply posted ( addressing you in particular) that´it’s not my ´cup of tea’ (the least to say/write!).

                That´s all.

                And one does not need a university degree to feel that, although I have one.

                Madhu

                P.S:
                No “village idiot” here in that chat, I presume, just a few people who pretend not to be vulnerable or sensitive, or who sometimes give a shit on the whole what is happening here in these virtual realms amongst humans.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Well, Madhu, I appreciate where you’re coming from, but I’m afraid your expectations, like those of all of us, are not necessarily there to be fulfilled. Besides, I suggest you might be over-reacting in this case.

                • Arpana says:

                  “They who speak much are blamed. They who speak a little are blamed. They who are silent are also blamed. In this world there is none who is not blamed.”
                  (Buddha)

                • Arpana says:

                  “There never was, there never will be, nor is there now, a person who is wholly blamed or wholly praised.”

                  (‘The Dhammapada’)

        • satyadeva says:

          “People who live satisfied never look at calendar, “When will come some Amma from India to give me a hug?”

          Apologies, Shantam, for rudely intruding upon your highly satisfying, deeply fulfilling day, but as you’re too happy to bother with the calendar I should inform you that Meera is due to give darshan in Freiburg in a couple of weeks or so, Monday and Tuesday, October 25/26.

          No silly hugging there, but if you can stand two hours of silence, a touch on the head and a deep, impersonal, yet profoundly loving look into your eyes then there are worse ways to spend a morning, afternoon or evening. She might even be able to help your life situation – if you ask…

          (Sorry, I got carried away – you’re fine as you are, I forgot. And, of course, you despise south Indians…and, oh yes, there’s no sex on offer there. Sorry to bother you).

          • shantam prem says:

            Good morning, Satyadeva,

            I don´t know whether it is good intention or missionary mind to offer an ‘Osho Orphan’ like me some consolatory touch of someone´s caring Mom!

            By chance, the other week, I had a lunch in Bio Shop with one young lady who is the organiser of Ms. Meera´s coming visit. There was immense sweetness and sincerity in the voice and energy of this 34 years old woman whose mother is German and father from Morocco.

            I was asking about her life and Meera´s life. I came to know, Meera spends half of the time in India, where she has created a school in her village. Thousands of children are benefited from this. Surely, she is not in the business of education as it is common in India to see Education Barons but in the mission of education.

            The young lady also mentioned, “Mother Meera is Durga in the West and Kali (Ferocious) in India.” She knows very well, staff in India won´t work without the strong head showing them the whip.

            I encouraged her to continue her journey with Meera as it is not an everyday blessing to be with some living spiritual mentor, but not to forget to meet same age right partner and create a family.

            Aware women of the West must not waste their chance to create even a better humanity.

            She said, “It is not easy to meet a man who has brain and inner depth.” We separated with a hug and spontaneously it came from my mouth, “God bless you, my kid.”

            • satyadeva says:

              “I don´t know whether it is good intention or missionary mind to offer an ‘Osho Orphan’ like me some consolatory touch of someone´s caring Mom!”

              It’s good intention, Shantam – and btw, rather more than just mere ‘consolation’ is on offer. You might well be surprised if you could somehow bring yourself to go there. Why not do it as an experiment? What is there to lose? Your preconceived ideas, perhaps?

              And if you do, write and ask for help with your situation. Put it all out, be totally honest, no need to hide or judge anything. In the past, I have received, most mysteriously, significant, life-changing help when I was up against it and so really needed it, with housing, money, work, a legal case and yes, finding a partner.

              Take the chance, it’s at your doorstep….

              • Arpana says:

                SD,
                Was the experience of Darshan with Ma Meera different to with Osho?

                • Arpana says:

                  SD,
                  I attended a concert years ago given by Sri Chinmoy. Was incredibly intense and affected me in the way I associate with such situations, in a way I associate with meditation practices other than Sannyas or Buddhist situations, but I experienced a grating dissonance as well. Uncomfortably so.

                • satyadeva says:

                  That wasn’t in ’84 at, I think, Wembley, was it? I went to that one and, like many of the audience, walked out well before the end, as I found it unenjoyable, turgid even. Would probably feel the same now.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Very different! For a start, it’s done in silence, there’s no dialogue, and each person gets about 10-20 seconds with her, in a structured format: kneeling at her feet, lightly touching them with your hands while she touches the top of your head with gentle movements, then sit in eye contact.

                  Doesn’t sound like much, but it can be challenging enough (including the waiting time) and much can happen, both at the contact time and later. She says in the silent communication each person is given precisely what they can safely work with, no more, no less.

                • Arpana says:

                  Thanks. The last Darshan I had with Bhagwan was like that. I didn’t know what was what for hours after.

                • shantam prem says:

                  Satyadeva, this is a serious question so I won’t take your answer in a sarcastic way.

                  For how many years you are going for Mother Meera’s darshans?
                  Is it always in London, or you visit her in Germany too?
                  Do you go alone or your partner too, and does the impact stay for long time and helps in your overall life quality?
                  Do the pangs of divine discontentment stay or oneness descends?

                • satyadeva says:

                  I first went to Meera in January, 1994, in Germany. Went again in June that year, and several more times during the next 9 or 10 years. For the last few years she’s visited London annually and I’ve been most times.

                  I’ve been alone or with a friend, and once to Germany with a partner.

                  I wouldn’t bother if it wasn’t beneficial, would I?!

                  There are no ‘quick fixes’, of course, and any ‘special experiences’ (eg, ‘oneness descending’) don’t need to be remembered, but having made the connection, which was firmly established in the 90s, especially by the practical help I received, it’s always good to maintain it, to be reminded, refreshed and even challenged by this intimately compassionate yet impersonal reflection.

                  The rest is up to me.

                • shantam prem says:

                  Thank you, Satyadeva, for factual reply.

                  January 1994 till now is a lot of time in any individual’s life. I may ask a further question:
                  During these 22 years, have you opened yourself up only before Mother Meera or there are few others too?

                • Parmartha says:

                  I feel, Shantam, to say, as Meera is coming to Freiburg very soon, you should visit her satsang. After all, she will not be on everyone’s doorstep.

                  I myself have never met her, but I have seen ‘remarkable’ changes, including material changes, for the people who go to see her.

                  I am sure she is ‘giving’ something, so why look a gift horse in the mouth?

                  SD perhaps goes on a bit too much as to what he sees as your loveless and unfulfilling life, going to naturist clubs and driving a van on the Swiss border. Take a chance on some cosmic power that might change your life!

                • shantam prem says:

                  Parmartha, just for your information, only short stories reveal their full story, novels destined to be epic don’t reveal their plot on any virtual site.

                  If someone like you thinks a man who went to Osho in his primitive years and to no one afterwards will have a unfulfilled and unloved life, not only you are mistaken but also showing no fucking trust on the capabilities of the man you call master. One more reason not to go to anyone.

                  If Swamis are beggars they should drop the name from borrowed language. What is the name given by your parents, Parmartha?

                • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                  “Parmartha, just for your information, only short stories reveal their full story, novels destined to be epic don’t reveal their plot on any virtual site.
                  If someone like you thinks a man who went to Osho in his primitive years….” (Shantam Prem)

                  These lines, Shantam Prem, come up (like quite many others under your name) like from a mean and mischievous social bot, sucking the life energy of others (human beings) and their efforts to express, without ever having the intention to respond to the living.

                  Just like a machine of destruction – yet, I presume, a machine, given its start-off still by a human – by a quite heart-distorted human being.

                • shantam prem says:

                  Madhu,
                  How you are financing your life in one of Germany’s most proper cities? Is it Osho Foundation International or everywhere Osho pouring monthly money in your account?

                  Let us face it, Ma, Energy Suckers is an art of sitting silently doing nothing.
                  No need to deny, sannyasins in the real world are living on the collective charity or selling placebos.

                  Once it is accepted, humility will descend and the energy to look inwards, not just one’s own inwards but also the inside working of the cult which grew on the basis of channelling the anger against each and every institution.

                • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                  Your presumptions here are quite ‘off the wall’, Shantam Prem, like:

                  “Is it Osho Foundation International or everywhere Osho pouring monthly money in your account?

                  Let us face it, Ma, Energy Suckers is an art of sitting silently doing nothing…

                  No need to deny, sannyasins in the real world are living on the collective charity or selling placebos.”

                  My mother, before passing away, obliged my brother to pay me a moderate small monthly life-pension out of the family property.

                  With the support of charity, I lived only once for less than a year, when I faced being homeless here in Munich for serveral years. In the Munich Sannyas scene or former Sannyas scene I was a ´pariah’ (social outcast) even before these very difficult times.

                  OIF as an instution I know nothing about and nobody from. Just some few of former members I knew more personally, long, long before that institution was founded. And most of them found their way into what we call ´the world´.

                  I joined the UK caravanserai chat for sharing about issues which are touching me, and I am not able to communicate elsewhere. Nobody asked me to do that and nobody is interested in this of my writing either.

                  I love to connect, also in that virtual chat, Shantam Prem, and nobody pays for it; that would be quite obscene in my eyes.

                  It was and is very difficult for me to connect with you, or respond to you in a healthy way. Mostly, reading you, I felt your rage, or let´s better say ´rage´.
                  Sometimes, I felt deep pain underneath.

                  But all this covered up from your side with so much written roundabout stuff that I simply couldn´t answer (respond to).

                  So, I am taking your contributions and the virtual waves that they are making, as a meditation, if you don´t mind.

                  Madhu

                • Parmartha says:

                  I am no judge of your life, Shantam, and have no wish to be.

                  But you have sometimes posted stuff both here and on facebook in which you self-declare a certain dissatisfaction with your own life, or disclose your way of life, and seem to compare it to Pune 2 or 3 as less nourishing. If I am wrong, forgive me.

                  Though I myself have not ‘been’ to Meera, I would say I have met those who have and seem to have benefited, and think that is worth saying.

                  Back of all this is your wish to recreate Pune 2 or 3. I just feel you would help yourself if you began to realise that is not possible, even if you repossessed the ashram. The closest in vibe and atmosphere to Pune 3 is probably in Mexico….

                • shantam prem says:

                  Parmartha, you can look in this way too: if Osho is a word machine as a master, Shantam is a word machine as disciple. I think, mine are the maximum words written on social media from the perspective of disciples. Sometime it is more compassionate when one describes the collective anguish and ordeal through one’s own example.

                  Matter of the fact is, people who followed living Osho have become the lost tribe of Moses. Every single project promoted by Mr.Jain as self-proclaimed chief representative of Existence has failed and neither he nor his closest disciples have taken any responsibility for fiasco.

                  It is like borrow the money from innocent people and then change the name and claim, “It is not me who borrowed the money.” In the success story of Osho, which is failed now, lies the hopes and shattered lives of thousands of innocent people.

                  The Buddhist or Christian monks and nuns too will feel a heart pang when some asshole among them says, “The one you are searching is everywhere and not just in monasteries. Now you go out in the world, earn your living and feel God/Buddha/Osho whosoever.”

                  Simple thing is, Parmartha, whether you or other British disciples living in England are living on the charity of the collective mind that once you despised very intensely. The great dentist of the master of the masters too is back in the world created by other people to sell his placebos.

                  It is a common fact, lots of once sannyasins have gone for healing touch to others. It means life is fucked up and there is no chance to get cure from the sect they poured their energy into.

                  I write this pain without any bias or denial. If someone asks me about going somewhere, most probably I will also refer Meera, but not a single therapist nor any place connected with Osho.

                  Few months ago, my son asked me, “Papa, can I order some books from your Amazon account?” I was pleased to say yes and inquired what kind of books. It was a nice surprise when he showed the titles, books by Dalai Lama. With one click I ordered his choice of two books and felt thankful he was not asking for Osho’s books.

                  During His lifetime, books by master has seal of authenticity, post-demise his sect has proved, “Words are merely words.” Without the real functioning of the commune as master left, his words have lost the hollow. After all, creation speaks better than oratory.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Shantam, you said in an earlier post today:
                  “If someone like you thinks a man who went to Osho in his primitive years and to no one afterwards will have a unfulfilled and unloved life, not only you are mistaken but also showing no fucking trust on the capabilities of the man you call master.”

                  However, it’s very difficult to square this claim that your life is in fact ok, or more than just ok, with the continuous outpouring of anger, resentment, bitterness against what you term the “failure” of the Sannyas movement. (The word “failure” is completely wrong, by the way, it’s another instance of your lack of clarity, due to extreme emotional bias. But I’m not going into that now).

                  Either you believe you’re living well or you don’t. You can’t have it both ways. The truth, I suspect, is that sometimes you feel your life is pretty good, at other times (perhaps too often for comfort) you’re consumed by rage at your apparently rather mediocre situation, while, even at ‘ok’ times, there’s always at least an undercurrent of negativity churning around and working to undermine your well-being. Which you deal with by thinking and writing about how dreadful things are ‘out there’, thanks to ‘those bastards’.

                  If you were honest with yourself you’d surely have to admit this obsessive, self-righteous negativity certainly qualifies as ‘unhappiness’. And as such, nourishing it as you do, seemingly by the day, or by the hour or even by the minute, is essentially ruining your life. Even if you generate ‘consolation’ and ‘purpose’ by defining yourself as some sort of ‘freedom fighter’, a standard bearer for ‘Osho’s True Vision’.

                  Also, if you’d understood the basic principles of ‘spiritual life’ (as emphasised by Osho and every genuine teacher) you’d have to agree that, in the final analysis, you and you alone are responsible for your life, including how you perceive and respond to external conditions. Which unfortunately for you, leaves no space for indulging your miserable emotions by laying the blame on others or on ‘circumstances’,

                  No doubt you’re hoping against hope that the Courts will rule against ‘The Regime’ and that you’ll then be able to restore things to how they ‘should’ be, ie to suit you and others like you.

                  But, as a few here have taken pains to point out, it won’t and can’t be how it was, at best it’ll be a pale copy of the past, attractive mainly to a load of would-be promiscuous Indians, like yourself (and you’re not the young man you were, are you?!), who think prancing around in a throng of thousands at a few ‘festivals’, singing devotional songs and living a nice, perhaps rather high-status, privileged life in a commune is where it’s at. But, as well as the living Osho, of course, without the one ingredient that made it all worthwhile to you: hordes of attractive foreign women.

                  In that key sense, the ‘Sannyas’ you knew is over, matey. Question for you to ask yourself is, does Sannyas mean anything else – or have you fundamentally misunderstood what it’s all about?

                  I will add one thing in mitigation though. Sannyasins from Europe, the US, Canada and Australasia have at least come from societies that went through the psycho-socio-sexual revolutions of the 60s and 70s (and later). So they probably found it easier to go back ‘home’ and create or resume a life there than, say, Indians did in their countries.

                  As you, Shantam, and other Indians, didn’t have that sort of background of social upheaval and so relied upon Sannyas to provide a similar environment, albeit even more challenging in many ways than those of Europe etc. As such, you might feel, and perhaps are, a misfit, not belonging anywhere, except, in your memory, to the Pune of old, where, overwhelmed by the excitement of the ‘revolution’, you invested all your psycho-sexual hopes, dreams and desires.

                  If that’s an accurate picture then I can more easily understand where you’re coming from (in both senses). But as Parmartha has recently said, if you imagine ‘regime change’ will itself ensure a similarly fulfilling life (beyond the satisfaction of taking pure revenge) then you’re almost certainly in for a major disappointment. And if you think any enhanced status you might possibly enjoy is anything at all to do with Sannyas then you really are well and truly up the proverbial psycho-spiritual shit creek (seemingly without a paddle!).

                • Arpana says:

                  @ satyadeva says:
                  9 October, 2016 at 11:02 am

                  Part of that tour, yes. We walked out. Unpleasant vibe.

                • frank says:

                  I went to see Chinmoy once. It would have helped if he could actually play the flute. I’ve seen homeless drunks on the street playing tin-whistle better than that guy! Lots of them!

                  Most of the audience felt the same and legged it halfway through.

                  What a joker. Talk about the Emperor`s new clothes!

              • Arpana says:

                He’s projecting as usual.

                Suddenly seems so obvious what he’s doing here. He’s acting out Sikh missionary.

                I didn’t realise Sikhs, until now, had that tendency going on.

                http://sikhmissionarysociety.org/

                • shantam prem says:

                  Arpana,
                  In my eyes, you are an emotionally underdeveloped person. Most of such people are the adherent devotees of all kinds of religious service providers.

                  One can look at the collective psychological profile of people who go to wandering satsang-givers and Indian warmth providers. Some kind of bookish knowledge and neediness is obvious.

                  Fortunately, most of people Osho attracted were of different kind.

                • Arpana says:

                  Shantam ,
                  In my eyes, you are an emotionally, spiritually, intellectually underdeveloped person. Most of such people are the adherent devotees of all kinds of religious service providers.

              • shantam prem says:

                Most probably not.
                And if someone had told me, take the chance with Osho, I would have missed the deepest connection with His work and His people.

                I have so much repulsion and allergy for direct marketing people, whether they sell Amway, Herbal-Life kind of products or go on singing the benefits to be with this or that spiritual master/teacher to inspire you to visit at least once and see how beneficial it becomes for your life.

                In a way, every sensible person avoids such good intention parasites.

                • Arpana says:

                  Shantam says, “I have so much repulsion and allergy for direct marketing people.”

                  This from Shantam who regularly refers to “Osho brand”.

                  Does your left hand even know your right hand exists?

                • satyadeva says:

                  Well, freedom is freedom to choose and reject opportunities, so fair enough.

                  But I know from experience that one can easily miss good stuff by convincing oneself it’s ‘no good’, ‘inferior’, ‘not for people like me’, or, as you say you’re doing, Shantam, by allowing oneself to be offended by how it’s presented, or ‘marketed’, whether formally or, in this case, informally, as a friendly suggestion. I’m also no fan of sales/marketing bullshine, by the way.

                  At the considerable risk, I imagine, of turning you off more, it’s possible (and, given what we’ve seen here at SN of your quite extraordinary stubbornness, even highly likely) that you are simply rationalising ‘resistance’, finding what seems to you (or rather, your ‘mind’) a perfectly valid reason to avoid a situation that might threaten your (or rather, its) ‘comfort zone’, the precious ‘status quo’ – even though your current situation, from all present and past evidence, is hardly ideal (is it?).

                  One last thing:
                  Forget any idea that going there is akin to ‘joining’ another group, belief system, etc. It’s nothing like that at all, there’s no ‘religion’ or ‘cult’ element going on, just a simple gift of presence, peace, in-sight and, dare I say it, ‘divine love’.

                  Plus practical help, if you really need it – especially if you’re not too proud, or egoistic, or too attached to what you think is your ‘inner strength’, your ‘independence’, your lack of “neediness”, to ask for it.

  13. shantam prem says:

    Satyadeva,
    In any case you are intending to visit Meera ji, please be my guest. I hope you will also enjoy autumn walk in Black Forest.

  14. shantam prem says:

    When we are in desperate situations of life, placebos work too. More or less, we human beings are helpless many times in lives.

    It is tragic that great people have to maintain a facade not to be helpless but always strong. Maybe this is the reason many remain celibate. Partners and children have the knack to bring great men and women on their knees.

  15. shantam prem says:

    “The closest in vibe and atmosphere to Pune 3 is probably in Mexico.”

    I think Parmartha has given a nice compliment to Rajneesh, the man who was booed by the super- intelligent bloggers at sannyasnews! His creation is now speaking louder than any work of any other disciples.

    Mr. Editor, you have not seen Pune 3 in its glory. Pune 3 was designed by Osho to continue expansion after his demise. The closest disciples screwed it to the level of gangbang.

    In my observation, Rajneesh’s work is very similar to Pune 1. Master is alive and there are limited number of disciples for personal interactions.

  16. Parmartha says:

    Not sure what you mean, Shantam:

    “Simple thing is, Parmartha, whether you or other British disciples living in England are living on the charity of the collective mind that once you despised very intensely.”

    For your information:
    At the ripe old age of 71 I continue to work and make a living. And that work has nothing to do with the sannyas disapora. Not sure what fantasies you have about the British.

    • frank says:

      Big P says of Shantam: “Not sure what fantasies you have about the British.” Pretty twisted by the sound of it.

      One consolation:
      They`re not the ones he has about the Japanese!
      Although evidently, they both involve worthless ejaculations in front of a computer screen!

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