Inspired by an ancient Buddhist meditation on death, Nityaprem contemplates the one certainty of our lives and asks some searching questions.
While I was studying Buddhism I came across this short meditation by the tenth century teacher Atisha, called the “nine point contemplation on death” which has stayed with me and provided an important piece of life direction:
1. All of us will die eventually
2. Your life span is decreasing continuously
3. Death will come whether you are prepared or not
4. Your life span is not fixed, death can come at any moment
5. Death has many causes
6. Your body is fragile and vulnerable
7. Your loved ones cannot keep you from death
8. Your material possessions cannot help you when death comes
9. Your body cannot help you when death comes
Atisha ends this contemplation by saying that there is nothing you can take with you, except what you have achieved on the spiritual path. To me, this was a wake up call, because what I had been doing with my life was just focused on having fun and material things. Nothing like a bit of death to give you a jolt, eh?
It reaffirmed for me that I was doing the right thing by pursuing a spiritual path, dropping for a good long while the ideas of career, goals, fun and games. Of course, just because it feels right doesn’t necessarily mean it will turn out as you wish.
Atisha’s contemplation leaves you with the question what you can actually achieve in this life that you can take with you. Osho wasn’t very forthcoming about this or about the afterlife, he once said he purposely didn’t talk about that topic because he wanted you to focus on the here and now.
A quote from Osho…
“First know life; do not ask what death is. Know life, and by knowing life you will come to know death also. What you are transcends both. You are neither life nor death. You have been living, you will be dying – your being transcends both. Do not identify yourself with life. If you identify yourself with life then you will think of death as your enemy. Know life and then you know that you are beyond – unidentified, someone who has come to life. And you will know death too – as a door going back, returning to the source. Life comes, death comes, but the source remains beyond both.”
(Osho, ‘The Eternal Quest’)
But we are tempted, dear Osho. There is one source of information which has potential to give us a peek, there have been a number of people exploring near-death experiences or NDEs. Some famous books on this subject range from Raymond Moody’s ‘Life After Life’ (1975) to Eben Alexander’s ‘Proof of Heaven’ (2012).
From those sources it seems to me very likely that there is some sort of afterlife, but also that the mind and spirit are probably altered in the process. Without the anchor of a body and a brain, who knows what might survive from our instincts, drives and thoughts? At the very least you will want to feel happy about how you spent your time on Earth, and that is about resolving blockages, traumas and karmic imprints, the stuff that follows you.
If you think of all the events that bring up negative emotions in you, the times when people wronged you, didn’t give you your due, falsely accused you. Those moments which mattered to you. Are there any that you wouldn’t want to forgive?
More to the point, do you think your spirituality has brought you something worthwhile that you can take with you into the beyond? Or do you think Osho’s love, life and laughter has brought you a more beautiful life, and that was enough? Or have you left Osho behind and are you now struggling on your own with the questions of life and death?
Nice topic and nice wording from you to invite us to share something of one’s journey!
For quite many friends and followers of Bhagwan/Osho he seems to have been the first entry to spirituality. The people I met before and on my trip to India mostly had already completed their professional studies and worked some time in their field. Then the message was spread and many found ‘it’ appealing.
Whereas, myself, I’d just finished high school at the age of 19 and I hadn’t heard anything about ‘it’ or even India or Bhagwan. Only when I sat on the plane to Bombay I could see like around a hundred red people in heyho mood on it!
My neighbour was in red, too, and he told me a little bit of the story.
As I had appointments in India elsewhere and wasn’t travelling alone, I forgot about spirituality altogether.
Later on, I travelled on my own and got my first strong impression of spirituality on the premises of the #JagannathTemple in Puri…what an atmosphere…then Konarak and Bubaneshwar.
Long story short:
I ended up at the Mahasi Meditation Centre in Rangoon, where I gained some insight into the meditation process and the strictly organised meditation and monk’s life. This gave me the perspective and centering I still have today.
Only after my return to Europe I joined the Sannyas scene in Southern Germany, although mostly as an outsider.
Only after falling ill and being parachuted out of my job, I found out that I still had a lot of therapeutic work to go through regarding some traumatic epxeriences in my early childhood – which actually shaped my outsider position.
In the last thread I described a Sannyas dream I had some 3 weeks ago. That is my current perspective on Sannyas. So, I am not into communal living and singing Gayatri Mantra etc. My view on Osho is that he is a very profound teacher of meditation, that is how I read the texts and find inspiration.
About ‘the body’ there is a stage in meditation where one experiences so-called ‘banga gnana’ – knowledge of the non-existence of the body as a concept or of the dissolution of the body: only sensations, coming and going, sensations even without a fixed location, always changing, always moving. My guess is that quite a few sannyasins have had this experience out of bliss and letting go and transcendental experiences (with picture stories). However, one must have developed wisdom out of observing mental-physical phenomena to be free and not to fall back.
Which might be the case if such experiences were induced by outside powers and/or PTSD still having its effects (which may not have been healed by doing xyz groups and therapies).
Today, I am experiencing some Covid19-sensations: tested positive this afternoon. Finally, after 2 years more or less taking good care. Symptoms are pretty mild – throat ache like from a cold, sometimes stinging and a light pressure on the left side of my head, tension in the shoulder and back muscles on the left. Is it time to go? Nononono.
So far, so good!
It’s an interesting story, Klaus, almost as if you experience spirituality as something on top of ordinary life, not the usual rituals and altars and incense added on in small drips but instead dreams and red robes and meditation woven throughout and always present. Very nice!
I came across someone who had visited the Pune ashram in the seventies on another forum, a therapist whose wife suffered from a sensitivity to psychosis and who had come looking for an answer as to why these things happen. He ended up having a life-changing experience and doing a series of groups, met Osho, but he didn’t take sannyas and ended up going back to his wife and two kids.
So you see, sannyas had quite a few positive effects on the world as well. All kinds of people came and experienced the commune and took a little bit of the energy back with them. That’s still working its way through.
I feel I should write something on the influence of Osho/Sannyas in my life…
Most of all, the positivity of the message, the person and the movement kept me ‘egging on’. I tended to be a bit despondent and found it hard to keep going positively on anything. Returning to the Sannyas impetus always raised my action spirits: gave me new impulses for a workshop or a retreat, taking care of trainings and money business. Thus, biggly important!
When looking at the last few threads here and the discussions we had on ‘the sinner side’ of Sannyas I now feel this made it complete. Again: thanks to Osho for his straightforwardness, thanks to all participants for the energy raised and invested…
‘Complete’ also in the sense of C.G. Jung: if you get caught up in the positive side only you will (might with a high percentage! Haha) fall prey to the hypostasis of things – and remain divided.
Only when experiencing, exploring and inviting the negative (unconscious) side of the phenomenon there may be wholeness.
Remember: that is what @Frank has been pointing to and insisting on all the way – there is the SAINT and The SINNER!
Dreams can be the communicators of ‘the other side’; dreams can be the signposts of your individuation process. Vast works of CG Jung recommended reading.
That is where mysticism, psychoanalysis, exploration of the inner (meditation, psychonauts etc.) – and the normal world – collide
I have to isolate at home for at least 5 days due to the positive PCR test…symptoms are light, luckily. I am a vaxxer, so.
“So you see, Sannyas had quite a few positive effects on the world as well. All kinds of people came and experienced the commune and took a little bit of the energy back with them. That’s still working its way through.”
Certainly with social media there is the possibility for Osho’s words to spread even wider. You still come across his thought in many places, but his lectures weren’t really meant to be quotable… often one piece of text carries on into the next, and it doesn’t come to a punchline.
Interesting topic, NP, death.
There are two possibilities:
Either something survives after death or nothing survives. In the second there will be nobody who worries that nothing survives.
The idea that one can take something with seems a bit strange for me. People realized that it doesn’t function in the worldly way, now they try it in the spiritual way.
Same mind, different colour.
Maybe it helps for consolation.
yes – something survives
no – nothing survives
How about ‘mu’ (Japanese):
neither something nor nothing survives
Woah. These Zen guys & girls are hitting it over the roof.
The fitting koan would be:
Thats true, though Satchit, if you are looking to take something with you it’s just a slightly different kind of materialism. It’s still the old accumulation mindset. Well spotted!
Maybe it would be more right to say it was an evolution of being? I always thought in Nature everything is reused, the tree when it falls and decomposes becomes the hummus of the forest floor. Maybe something similar happens to the spirits of human beings on death, transformed and become something else useful in the hereafter.
Yes, NP, we can speculate in different directions.
Searching for meaning? Maybe there is no meaning.
We don’t know what’s after death.
Maybe the show is over. The lights are out.
Didn’t Osho ever speak in detail about dying and death?
If not, then I recommend Barry Long’s talk, ‘Seeing Through Death (Facing the Fact Without Fear)’:
Reminds me of a story:
Somebody asked the Master, “What is beyond death?”
The Master answered: “How can I know? I am an alive Master.”
Well, Satchit, to paraphrase Shakespeare’s immortal words, maybe there are more things in heaven and earth, life and death, than even you or that Master can be bothered to dream of!
Basically it was a hint:
Don’t dream of the future!
Death or life happens now!
Yes, Satchit, but the problem is that we know virtually nothing about the inevitable event that represents our greatest fear (which, of course, is why we’re so afraid of it) so it seems sensible to receive ‘enlightenment’ on that mysterious process instead of blocking it out of our awareness, pushing it down out of sight and suffering the consequences.
If you listen to the talk you’ll understand the grave (!) implications of our having been kept so ignorant for so long.
I listened to that talk some time ago and thought it sounded not too far out. I could find myself in what he said.
But I thought what was interesting about Osho’s approach to talking about death was that he didn’t make any claims about it. He talked about various different ways it could go, but he didn’t make any categorical statements saying what will happen, as far as I can remember anyway.
I did listen to the half of his talk.
Seems he takes near-death experiences as a proof that we are not our body. Science has another explanation for this.
I recommend you listen to the rest, Satchit. BL doesn’t merely rely on reports of near-death experiences for his insight into the realities of death and whether we are our body or not.
But as always in these matters, it comes down to whether one is prepared to accept a master’s report of his own profound realisations. BL wasn’t someone who gratuitously peddled fanciful ideas and mystical concepts in order to impress his audience, he dealt in truth, grounded in his own hard-won experience.
A master’s report? It’s your master, not mine.
He says one finds death only in dead bodies and as a proof he comes up with a near-death scene.
This does not impress me. Anyway he is too dry for my taste.
“A master’s report? It’s your master, not mine!”
“A” master doesn’t imply “your” master, Satchit. No need to distort what I wrote.
“He says one finds death only in dead bodies and as a proof he comes up with a near-death scene.
This does not impress me.”
Have you yourself found death anywhere other than in a dead body?
Seems you still haven’t listened to the whole talk, nor to have listened with attention and without prejudice, otherwise you wouldn’t have written the above comment (unless you’re too dull, too full of your own preconceptions, or simply too lazy to be bothered anyway).
What do you think profound realisations about death are – entertainment?!
In the second half, Satchit (if you stopped listening at exactly halfway through), you’d have found how to introduce children to the fact of death, advice to the bereaved on how to cope with feeling devastating loss, and, which I particularly recommend, about 8 minutes (from 1 hour 11 minutes to the end) addressed specifically to the dying and to those facing death in the near future, where the various processes they (and you and I and everyone) will face are compassionately described in detail.
The talk is ok, very educational, much “must” and “have to”.
“Have you yourself found death anywhere other than in a dead body?”
Yes, I have found death inside myself and it is very much alive and growing each day.
Sounds very good, Satchit. To help this topic along, could you possibly share one or two of your ‘inner corpses’ with us, please?
I don’t talk of corpses, SD.
Anyway one could ask:
Is it a real experience that we are not our body or is it only a mental suggestion?
Some kind of positive thinking?
Ok, let’s have more clarity:
What exactly do you mean by “I have found death inside myself and it is very much alive and growing each day.”?
I assumed you were referring to renouncing certain aspects of your self that needed to ‘die’, ie to be starved of nourishment.
On whether we’re a body or not, listen to the masters, what do they say? Personally, and I’m pretty sure this applies to most of us, including you, I’ve experienced being separate from my body very occasionally, by far the strongest time being during intense ecstatic dancing when I was amazed to watch my body doing its thing.
It was just a poetic way of saying that death is coming closer.
Yes, out-of-body experiences did always exist.
I see – I’d taken it to mean that you were referring to a spiritual process where you were consciously choosing to die to aspects of your self and were experiencing profound joy as a result!
But then you’re not actually experiencing death itself, you’re experiencing the thought that “death is coming closer”, and thought isn’t reality, although we might often be tempted to choose to live there and so construct our personal version of reality, a sort of pseudo-reality.
“Your life span is decreasing continuously”
Is not a thought.
It is reality.
If you imagine that death is growing inside you, you make death a friend, which is maybe not bad for the final curtain….
Yes, I suppose that’s practising non-resistance to the inevitable. Although imagination is limited, it can’t exactly replicate what you’ve never experienced, so the test will be when the time comes….
Best advice is to make the most of one’s life. That’ll mean different things to different people, but I recall Parmartha (co-founder and editor of this site) saying, after he’d realised he hadn’t much longer to live, that he was glad he hadn’t wasted his life.
“The most of one’s life”?
Uh, this can be a stress factor.
Better relax and watch the clouds moving in the sky!
But Satchit, I did add “that’ll mean different things to different people.”
Came across this remarkable account by chance tonight. Well worth a 12 minutes watch…
Yes, good advice from Satyadeva.
“Best advice is to make the most of one’s life.”
” “The most of one’s life”?
Uh, this can be a stress factor. Better relax and watch the clouds moving in the sky!”
Relax and listen to some music. Jean Morning Star ‘Voices of the Nation’:
I think one should at some point in life spend serious time on being totally relaxed. No goals, aims, ambitions, nothing but being relaxed and doing just the minimum. You’ll find all kinds of things come to the surface, conditioning, imperatives, habits. It is actually quite difficult to shed all this stuff, it takes years of doing nothing to reach total relaxation.
SD, watched the NDE vid. Lovely man. Inspirational.
Yeah, watched it too. Very inspiring, the way he tells of being inspired to give expression to what had happened to him. Painting and music, very good!
I agree, Lokesh, that it is a fascinating account, not unlike many that I’ve seen of these NDEs.
He was very measured, calm, not too much woo woo.
I wonder how you find it inspiring? Was it the fact that he provides some reassurance to those who may fear death, or hope in some way for an after-life?
Other accounts often suggest meeting family and friends in a wonderful, peaceful place, and find reassurance in that. I don’t feel the need to meet my family again, so such an idea isn’t attractive to me.
In all cases, by default, the NDE subject returns to earth, sometimes finding a new purpose to show others what they have learned but I don’t see the evidence for how these accounts truly aid others, except to provide a second-hand account of the after-life. That may be inspiring in its own way, reassuring for some.
In a way, Simond, what you believe about death is key to shaping your spirituality. There are an awful lot of religions which are formed around the belief of an after-life: Buddhists and karma and reincarnation, Christians and sin and heaven and hell, the Norse mythology and Valhalla, Islam and its paradise and rivers of wine and its forty virgins for martyrs.
The first step is to believe in an after-life at all, and NDEs help you there, but they also show hints of an after-life that isn’t anything like the usual religions. It’s much more freeform, much more customised to the individual. The spirituality that comes from NDEs is very beautiful, I find, a hint of the other world brought back into this one.
The key word you use here is “ belief”. To believe is to wish for, hope, think, imagine , dream, all of which are projections from within your Mind. You can “believe” what you like, as we all do to one degree or another – in any form of religion or teacher or idea, or that the earth is flat. It’s up to you.
I don’t believe in an after-life. I don’t know.
I can speculate and I can read the runes from my own life experience, that show me one thing, – that the mystery of consciousness lives on. But meeting parents, or reaching some everlasting heaven? No, that makes no sense to me at all.
I have seen other reports from those who have had an NDE where they report many of the same observations this guy did. And they provide a new sense of inspiration to many who have experienced them. Don’t forget though – they all came back, even if they died or their heart stopped, they returned to earth.
It was in their minds alone. No one has ever returned from the dead. And before Satchit or some other nitwit refers to the Tibetan llamas or the Indian yogis who he has read did come back from the other side…They didn’t. Death is the end, from which there can be no return.
But Simond, take a look at what came to my inbox yesterday (which I’ve only just read this morning)!
Wayne Dyer was a very well known American teacher of ‘personal transformation’, a good, courageous guy who’d overcome huge early disadvantages to reach ‘the top’. He’d come a long way and no doubt helped many people improve their lives – but did he know ‘the Truth’? I very much doubt that.
“Today LIVE at 5pm Pacific/Los Angeles time, in about 30 minutes!
There is a video event that proves there is life after death.
That death really is merely a transition and not an end.
These messages are coming from the other side from none other than personal Development pioneer Wayne Dyer himself, who passed in 2015.
Wayne’s daughters are working with a renowned Medium to bring forward the next clearest wisdom of Wayne.
(This medium has a 2-year waiting list she is THAT good!)
Prepare to apply to your life today the wisdom from your loved ones who have already transitioned.
The breath of freedom and inspiration you will receive will help you live a more fruitful, productive, and love-filled life while you are still here.
Messages From the Afterlife: Dr. Wayne Dyer and the Secret to Communicating with the Other Side
This is a never-before-presented FREE Online Video Program with Dr. Wayne Dyer’s Daughters, Saje Dyer & Serena Dyer Pisoni, and Renowned Spiritual Medium Karen Noé
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NOTE: This video presentation is then followed by a 30-minute LIVE Q&A session with Karen, Serena, and Steve Farrell.
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When you watch the program, you’ll learn the extraordinary story of what happened to New York Times bestselling author and motivational speaker Dr. Wayne Dyer after he died.
And you’ll experience for yourself how he continues to provide teachings and messages filled with wisdom and guidance through his daughters, Saje and Serena, and spiritual medium Karen Noé.
Plus there will be a profound lifting of the veil, proving that our world and the afterlife exist side by side.
They will also be sharing that by using certain techniques, you can communicate with the other side in a way that will inform your life in hopeful and exciting ways.
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But that’s a belief too, the idea that there is nothing to come, that death is “the end”. I think NDEs are the best source of information we have about the after-life, the only one that might contain some fragments of truth.
The thing is, who are you going to trust, some schoolteacher from long ago who told you the brain was purely material, or people who have actually had first-hand experiences showing that that isn’t so?
There are all sorts of mediums proclaiming evidence of life after death and communicating with those in the “after-life”. Many are bogus, some are deluded by the their so-called channelling, some are probably very sincere.
If there is life after death, ask yourself: “Where were you before you were born?”
Yes, there are also those who remember past lives, and what a mystery that is; but no one comes back or has ever lived who is Me. I, SimonD, don’t survive and have never been born before….
‘SimonD’ is a role you play.
And certainly your role will not survive.
There will be a new show going on.
So, Satchit, you doubt that NDEs reflect reality yet you have no problem rattling off a cliche about (presumably) ‘reincarnation’! How have you managed to convince yourself about this “new show”, this ‘after-life’?
SD, maybe NDEs reflect reality, who knows? I am not all-knowing, I am not God.
You should not distract yourself because of the little doubt I share.
Doubt is needed for the meeting of the opposites.
(Old wisdom of the Master of the Masters).
But you haven’t answered my question, Satchit:
How come you can accept ‘reincarnation’ but doubt NDEs? NDEs occur before death, and are very well documented, reincarnation is post-death, with far less first-hand evidence.
I did not accept ‘reincarnation’.
Not in this case that a soul enters a new body and has memories of his past
I did not write: “There will be a new show going on for you”.
Seems this is your interpretation.
So, Satchit, please tell us exactly what you meant by telling SimonD, “There will be a new show going on” after his death, as what you wrote invites misunderstanding.
And btw, ‘reincarnation’ doesn’t necessariuly imply that “a soul” (whatever that is, perhaps you can clarify?) “has memories of his past lives”. Thankfully, Nature/Life has ensured we’re protected from that sort of overwhelm as otherwise, this world would be even more of a madhouse than it is!
If a player is sold to another club and gone, the team is still playing in the league?
Are you channelling Eric Cantona now, Satchit (LOL)?!
Not if they’ve meanwhile been promoted or relegated, or gone out of business altogether due to maladministration!
I see you did not solve the koan, SD. Maybe you get another chance….
Seems you haven’t understood my responses, Satchit!
Haha???? So Satchit is talking in football koans? And we are expected to solve them; seems a little excessively obscure…
Let’s remember that NDEs aren’t describing death itself but circumstances where death was approached but, apparently ‘miraculously’, didn’t happen, presumably as it wasn’t yet the right time for the individual concerned.
So I think “after-life” isn’t the right term for the context of these extraordinary experiences although the details do suggest ‘the wonder of it all’, reminding us that we’re all part of something unimaginably superb.
Apart from the refreshingly unegoistic manner of the guy in the video (who, strangely enough, I seem to have a vague memory of having come across before, although I’ve no idea in what context) I found the details of his experience induced sheer wonder in me, incredulity that such things could actually have happenened.
Likewise and much more so, of course, for the man himself, who has, almost literally and certainly spiritually, not only been reborn but has also found ways to communicate and celebrate his transformative experience. All that is inspiring to me (especially, perhaps, as I haven’t had the best of times these last couple of months, or even couple of years) and as such carries great value; although I don’t know how exactly it will help me, I’m sure something very beneficial will come from it. (As long as I’m not given anything like what the guy in the video had to go through to break through to a new level, please, Life!).
Also, to speculate a little, influenced by teachings I’ve come across over the years (and not, I must add, by my own experience, although it has the ‘ring of truth’ for me) it’s occurred to me that as our experience is necessarily filtered via our incredible human brains to literally make sense to us, these extraordinary psychic visitations from beings and visions of the mystery and majesty of the universe, Light etc. may well be not only ‘true’ records reported by those who have experienced them, but also versions rendered understandable to us creatures of the senses of various levels of the invisible, the formless, ultimate Truth that is Life (including Death) itself, in and behind everything, our origins and ultimate destination.
Like, for example, the Power behind the ‘Big Bang’, still unknown to scientists, that gave rise to the various forms of visible Existence, the earliest stages of which science has made so much progress towards discovering, notably very recently.
And, indeed, the existence of a genuine Master, whom we can see, hear, touch, smell (if we ever get close enough) but whose message and realised inner reality is essentially Silence, Being, Love, Meditation, the domain of the invisible, the formless, beyond the senses.
In other words, a portion of Divine Consciousmess itself.
If you are an Indian, Simon, deities will pick you up, not family. This studies show.
So it depends on the culture you live in what you see. Seems all a bit mind-created.
The other day I dreamed I was driving with my car on an icy road. When I did wake up it was in the middle of summer.
I think that’s because before we die these psychic processes are necessarily communicated to us through our brains that are conditioned by experience, memories, beliefs (as I suggested yesterday, 5.56pm, 3rd paragraph). It doesn’t follow that the invisible energies behind them are invalid.
Can also be that the unconsciousness interprets the situation.
Certainly healing happens in a hospital. The two healers can be two nurses beside him. And full with endorphins the mind creates a beautiful reality.
Similar things can happen while you take an acid trip.
I think this kind of scepticism is a barrier to fully experiencing the after-life. If you fill your mind with these doubts then instead of ‘going high’ and absorbing what the process has to teach you, you will end up falling back down to have another earthbound life.
NP, we don’t talk here about after-life.
We talk about near-death, this is something else.
Does ‘going high’ mean for you ‘entering heaven’?
Where is the hell?
I don’t think there is such a thing as heaven and hell. At most there is where the light is, and away from the light in the shadows. My own experience is that the more time you spend analysing and working as a mechanic on the realising of things, the more you head into the shadows.
That’s one of the things I found beautiful about Paul Ditchfield’s NDE story, that afterwards he got really creative.
It’s one of Osho’s things as well, creativity and intelligence, not logic and engineering and science. I admit, I made some not-so-great choices in this area.
NP, I think you understood something wrong.
Osho was never against logic or science. Science is very creative, you can have a look into the centre of the
universe because of science.
Also, on the matter of the NDEs you can look from science or from the heart.
And they both can exist together.
Science is a wonder but it has limits, while “the heart” is too vague a term, giving too much room for possible emotional interference and prejudice to be trusted.
Re NDEs and beyond, I suggest the best option is to listen to what genuine spiritual teachers have to say, ie those who know from intimate experience the ‘secrets’ of birth, life and death.
Everybody has his own language, SD.
I would call Ditchfield’s NDE a heart-experience.
In my world emotions are part of the mind.
“Genuine spiritual teachers”?
Is there a reliable list?
I prefer to be a light to myself.
Has your very own personal “light” illuminated the difference between emotion and feeling, Satchit? If not, then you’ll be likely to be deceived by what you apparently recognise as the symbiosis of emotions and the mind.
Perhaps you could do with a spiritual teacher who can teach you about this? If you find one (and they seem to be pretty rare) they’re likely to be the genuine article.
Did your genuine spiritual teacher tell you that there is a difference between emotions and feelings?
Well, yes, Satchit, shocking, isn’t it, he clearly needs crucifying…
Make what you will of this, for instance:
“Emotion is past”
Good for believers.
It’s a device, not the reality.
If I am angry because of the bad weather, then I am angry Now!
But what makes you think you have a ‘right’ to be angry about bad weather? How did you take on board such a self-ish belief?!
BL says: “I was the first one who introduced this to the public”. Haha.
More than 40 years back it was already the proof: If you have emotions you are not in the Here and Now!
Not quite, Satchit. BL’s main point is to distinguish between emotion and feeling, which are invariably mixed up, viewed as identical by almost everyone (even, perhaps, by you!).
Maybe you need to re-read the extract and consider it more deeply, including, in the light of my question to you in my last post, your (in my view, flawed) example of being angry because of bad weather (which I note you haven’t dealt with yet).
Why ‘right’? I am free to be angry about anything.
But certainly it is not intelligent to be angry about bad weather because you cannot change it.
Better accept it.
But this is another matter.
Perhaps it might be worth applying the same criterion to almost everything that ‘makes’ us angry, Satchit?
This ‘other matter’ is only a question of seeing things clearly before one goes off and indulges in various levels of angry dissatisfaction, invariably based upon thwarted expectations, self-created senses of ‘entitlement’ that one has ‘collected’ in the past, maybe from an early age, ie major components of the ‘egoic self’. Having the will to perceive our compulsive reactivity with clarity might well be a key to living a more peaceful, integrated, conscious life instead of a reactive, unconscious one.
But the question is, do you or I or anyone really want to look at these challenenging facts? How conscious are we actually prepared to be? Because the truth is we love our righteous anger, don’t we?
Everyone, on an individual and collective level, thinking they’ve a ‘right’ to be angry about anything goes a fair way to explaining why we the human race and therefore our world is in such a God-forsaken state.
I think it is our animal nature.
We want it our way or we want it differently, our way.
So certainly fight is part of the game, in relationships or politics.
Perhaps then, it’s up to us who have some awareness of the bigger picture, to aim to be more conscious of our own ‘mechanical’ tendencies and be responsible for them instead of viewing them as ‘natural’, even ‘desirable’, ‘precious’ to our sense of ‘self’, hence determined to resist any criticism of them?
Satchit…on animal nature, if you relax and meditate enough, the tiger becomes a pussycat, and there is no need to keep playing the game.
Resistance of criticism is needed.
How else shall your emotion be triggered?
I was referring to criticism of our mechanical, robotic, reactive tendencies, as opposed to our tendency to value them, regard them as precious parts of our ‘self’.
As in: “It’s my opinion” (although more than likely derived from the media and/or fitting with some other borrowed attitudes and beliefs) “and nothing and nobody’s going to make me look a fool and admit I might be wrong.”
NP…seems your tiger is a vegetarian.
I came across a YouTube channel which did NDE interviews which seemed good, called ‘Love Covered Life’. One NDE there that I found good to listen to was from a man called Robert Aho, who had been dead for only five minutes but who had experienced a subjective several hundred years of being part of the Light. Beautiful story.
But one thing that was interesting was that he had been a Buddhist following the tradition of Dzogchen, which teaches that we are all part of the Light.
The existential theme of death, that is, as far as I am concerned, what is suggested by the anguish due to no longer having the opportunity to satisfy my dreams, needs and desires (the very desire to continue living, when one senses that there is already a promising scenario of exciting experiences awaiting me in this dimension) was a fairly early occurrence in my childhood.
The theme, among my thoughts, over the years has been waning with the relative anguish, or perhaps it is more correct to say that the thought has followed the trend of my first existential anguish.
The specific group made with SW. Veetman was the ultimate integration to the spiritual growth process inspired by Osho’s vision.
I believe that even in my case the anguish of death was a jolt, renewed every time, with different intensity, that I saw a human being or an animal die.
Osho, in my opinion, was very explicit in giving little space to the consolation of possible ultra-earthly life, giving all the space to what dissolves the anguish of death.
The Egyptian or Etruscan idea of carrying something with you is the symptom of an unresolved existential anguish, I personally believe that if I had not learned in life how to transcend the space-time dimension I do not see what could help me to be able to do it when I am dead.
I have no idea what will become of my instincts, drives and thoughts, it does not cause me any anguish not to know, and no intellectual curiosity to want to find out.
As for the wrongs done and suffered, before dying I would like to have the opportunity to remedy the former and give the same opportunity, if requested, to the authors of the latter, otherwise some sense of guilt or revenge will remain pending, but also that it would be part of this incredible adventure.
Death is all around.
Parents die, friends die, relationships die.
Dreams die, hopes die.
Where you are right now, many died before.
Veet Francesco, I think you are right to think that aspects of death and transcendence are with us in life. Various things teach us some of what happens…you hear stories about what people have found while taking psychedelics, for instance, or during rebirthing therapy, even if you haven’t experienced an NDE.
I think it helps you mature. The immature vision of death is like a lucid dream, where you can have anything you can want and imagine. But I think we leave that behind eventually, recognising it as fantasies, and the desires that fuel them as ultimately pointless. Then more maturity comes, and the vision shifts to other things.
The spiritual question, who am I? Some say freedom is the highest desire, and it is a good intermediate station, but beyond lie the questions that turn within, like truth, forgiveness, love and acceptance.
Sex, good food, fine drinks, beautiful clothes…all of that is incidental. It’s nice, but you have to learn to accept it in the moment and not cling to it, not crave but just let it go when the moment passes. It’s this life’s limited temptations, and coming to terms with them is a big step forwards.
Nityaprem, “Freedom as the highest desire” seems to me an oxymoron.
But in these chaotic times dominated by Newspeak there are those who can do better:
“The vaccine is freedom and this word, freedom, which has been used inappropriately too many times, is the freedom to go to school, work, earn, travel. Anyone who does not want to vaccinate is against other people’s freedom and cannot be rewarded. Anyone who is ambiguous about the Green Pass and vaccinations is against the health of Italians and against businesses and workers.” (Enrico Letta, Leader of the PD, party born on the rubble of the Berlin Wall, where Utopia’s funeral was celebrated).
Well, what about freedom as not being restrained? We are not incarcerated so we are ‘free’, but at the same time we may be limited by not having a car or the money to buy one, or limited from getting the job we want by not having the right qualifying pieces of paper, or we may be limited by our upbringing as Christians, our very mind and conditioning may limit our freedom to follow our dreams and inclinations. There are many ways to be more free than you were.
But I think even if you have achieved most of these freedoms, there is only so much you can do with them. Ultimately, I feel the real frontier is within, not out exploring the wildernesses of the world.
NP, imo, there are limits that we impose on others or limits that are imposed on us, limits chosen democratically or not, each of these options is not indifferent to my inner state.
The place of contact between inner and outer freedom is the physical place where we meditate; I would not assume that it will always be possible to find a place where the outer world cannot interfere / disturb our meditation session.
There is also to take into account the trend of the moment: it seems that the very body of human beings has become a place of conquest for sellers of nanotechnologies.
No, I do not believe that freedom is an acquired fact, one can regress socially, economically and spiritually. But I don’t think there will be a taste of Sheela’s explicit fascism that will make us discover the structure that limits and directs our lives.
I believe instead that the essence of the limiting / self-limiting power structure should be sought in the plots of the politically correct that have made human relations soporific and passionless.
In the video below, eight years ago the one who would become Minister of Ecological Transition in the Italian government (led by “the vile businessman of the Britannia ship”) was enthusiastically talking about these remotely controllable structures that could also be implanted in the bodies of spiritual seekers like you:
I think that a lot of these concepts, nanotechnologies and the fears they raise, the so-called “conspiracy theories”, just bind you more to the mind. It makes you think these things are so important, and the spectre of them in your thoughts actually causes more problems than are in reality present.
Relax, a lot of these technologies are 100 years away from being realized, if ever. The same thing with politics: our actual area of actions we can take is extremely limited, so it’s better to take as little knowledge of these kind of speakers as possible.
Thanks, NP, I will follow your advice about relaxation, on Amazon I have already bought a cubic metre of sand with a hole in the middle where I can meditate.
However, I would softly point out that as with the word ‘freedom’ associated with ‘vaccines’ the Newspeak associates ‘conspiracy’ with those who report plots and not with those who plan them.
Regarding your assessment of the technical times for the development of nanotechnologies that could turn into tools of control or oppression, I do not think that certain scientific research, for commercial, political and military implications, is so transparent (see gain of virus function).
I don’t know how you manage not to listen to politicians and scientists these days. In the first place it is no longer possible to distinguish between the public and private functions of the two categories and then because scientists become increasingly popular in Italy in the so-called government of technicians, as if they were neutral with respect to the political choices they will make.
I suppose if everyone was like you there would be no herd effect… wait…but if you don’t listen to politicians, scientists or virologists how did you work, shop or travel? Did you find it reasonable to undergo experimental gene therapy in order not to bind your mind?
I read the news once a day. I read the front page of The Guardian and the NOS (Dutch national news) website.
News is a largely unnecessary form of edutainment, outside of the Covid news announcements I can’t think of another instance where news has actually affected what I did during the day.
In your intro you quoted Osho from ‘The Eternal Quest’. Here are subsequent quotes from:
‘Unconsciousness to Consciousnes.
Chapter 2: Don’t follow me because I am lost myself. (31 Oct 1984 pm, Lao Tzu Grove)
Question 2: BELOVED OSHO, DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD?
“So man has been searching for meaning. He created God as a fiction to fulfil his need for meaning. Without God, the world becomes accidental. It is no more a creation of a wise God who creates it for your growth, for your development, or for something. Without God – remove God and the world is accidental, meaningless. And the mind has an intrinsic incapacity to live with meaninglessness, so it creates all kinds of fictions – God, nirvana, heaven, paradise, other life beyond death – and makes a whole system. But it is a fiction, to fulfil a certain psychological need.”
“I cannot say, ‘There is God.’ I cannot say, ‘There is not God.’ To me the question is irrelevant. It is a fictitious phenomenon.”
“My work is totally different. My work is to make your mind so mature that you can live with meaningless life, and yet beautifully.”.
To me, these are unambiguous statements from Osho.
Swami Anand Anubodh, though, living a beautiful life is still a meaning, a value.
I think that Osho was referring to the non-essential meaning that faithful believers attribute to life on the basis of a psychological need.
Isn’t it enough that it’s possible for a man like Osho (and others similarly evolved in consciousness) to actually be/have been amongst us, and did his utmost to help us towards realising (making real) in ourselves what he himself had realised (made real): Intimate knowledge, living awareness of the incredible Truth of Birth, Life, Love and Death?
Doesn’t that in itself, life forms inspired to become ever more conscious of their origins, represent meaning, value, a reason for being? However ultimately inscrutable the purpose behind the cosmic mystery might be?
“ As far as my people are concerned, we declare that we will live freedom, love, humanity. We will grow into our individuality and we will help anybody who is inviting and welcoming us. The only basic right is to become god. And unless you have found god within yourself, everything else is mundane. Finding godliness within you, everything else is found simultaneously.”
Osho, ‘Sermons in Stones’, Ch 26 (1986)
NP, I live six days on the truck and I no longer have catharsis in front of the TV, I inquire on the web, now I write because I am on vacation, one week.
I understand, not even in your geographical area has there been a real debate, in institutions or in the media, only announcements, for a single thesis.
Probably, even there when the media give space to a non-mainstream thesis, they use some character with bizarre ideas or a balanced person to provoke to the point of making him react in a bizarre way.
Those who didn’t vaccinate were left out of many things, like public events where you had to show proof of vaccination. It’s all been annulled by now, though.
Seems you have chosen a life on the road, Veet.
“ A life in your pocket is a life behind bars..but out here by my fire I can see all the stars..”
(I choose the road) :
It would be interesting to know how the Osho sannyasins behaved during the so-called health emergency:
If they have responded positively to the principle of authority (ipse dixit) or if they have questioned it, applying the logical principle of the demonstration of the theses in question.
Was the wine of the paradox offered by Osho perhaps intended to numb consciences and make us docile with respect to the principle of authority, starting with his?
Or was the purpose to familiarise us with the fog that stands between us and reality, refining the ability to distinguish between what is authentic and therefore essential and what is false and therefore ephemeral, food for the ego?
I thought the most compassionate and sensible thing to do was to get vaccinated as soon as availability allowed. I don’t believe it is harmful to do so, unless you are very unlucky. I also didn’t make a big deal out of wearing a mask when requested to do so.
I am back from a 12 days camping holiday in the Southern Alps – and also back from 11 days of Covid just before the camping.
The camping was lovely, Covid was 50% light and 50% not so light.
My theory is that I caught it while shopping in the supermarket – and being careless enough not to wear a mask (although I thought about it a few days before).
So. Fair enough. I care or I do not care about catching an illness. Authority or no authority.
Hi, Klaus, if I understand correctly, the four doses of experimental gene therapy that you wanted to be inoculated by the authorities does not protect you from the ‘flu, so you just have to hope / pray that a mask will be able to stop the virus.
No vaccine guarantees 100% protection against an infection. As I understand it.
However, it may have prevented a more serious progression of the illness after infection. That’s what I was aiming at as I am having preconditions.
In that sense I came away well.
If that is the correct expression.
Each to his own.
It is the personal choice of every single person.
I am not judging anyone for going this way or that way.
I would not even try to quote so-called facts as they might appear different to each individual. And there might be a counter-fact anyway.
In this sense I am fully with Aleister Crowley: “Do as you wish.”
Ah, good, NP, I thought you had undergone a gene experiment (the “vaccine” trials will end in 2023) because you were terrified of a virus that kills over-80s with 3/4 serious previous diseases.
Instead, on reflection, the reason should be that you have read many books on Buddhist ethics. It will not have been difficult for you to understand what was the right thing to do, sensing the authenticity of the spiritual message of the pandemic narrative, led by philanthropists like Gates or virus researchers like Fauci.
In my case selfishness prevailed, not having 3/4 serious previous pathologies, and not having even 60 years of age yet. But freedom has its price and without the green pass I could not do many things, such as working, going to the restaurant or to the gym…I also received a fine of 100 euros.
The social climate unleashed by people like me is well described by this short collection of compassionate thoughts:
“EXTERMINATION FIELDS FOR THOSE WHO ARE NOT VACCINATED” – GIUSEPPE GIGANTINO, CARDIOLOGIST
“I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THEM DIE LIKE FLIES” – ANDREA SCANZI, JOURNALIST
“IF IT WERE FOR ME, I WOULD ALSO BUILD TWO GAS CHAMBERS” – MARIANNA RUBINO, DOCTOR
“DOGS CAN ALWAYS ENTER. ONLY YOU, AS RIGHT, WILL REMAIN OUTSIDE “- SEBASTIANO MESSINA, JOURNALIST
“SEPARATE WAGONS FOR NON-VACCINATED” – MAURO FELICORI, COUNCILOR
“NO VAX OUTSIDE PUBLIC PLACES” – EUGENIO GIANI, PRESIDENT OF THE TUSCANY REGION
“IT COULD BE USEFUL FOR THOSE WHO CHOOSE NOT TO BE VACCINATED TO GO AROUND WITH A SIGN ON THE NECK” – ANGELO GIOVANNINI, MAYOR OF BOMPORTO
“WE ARE WAITING FOR THE NO VAX TO EXTINGUISH BY ITSELF” – PAOLO GUZZANTI, JOURNALIST
“THEY WILL BE ARRESTED AT HOME, CLOSED IN THE HOUSE LIKE RATS – ROBERTO BURIONI, VIROLOGIST
“DON’T CALL THEM NO VAX, CALL THEM BY THEIR NAME: DELINQUENTS” – ALESSIA MORANI, DEPUTY
“I WOULD LIKE A VIRUS THAT EATS YOUR ORGANS IN TEN MINUTES, REDUCING YOU TO A GREENISH MUSH THAT IS IN A GLASS TO SEE HOW MANY INFLESSIBLE NOVAX REMAIN IN THE WORLD” – SELVAGGIA LUCARELLI, INFLUENCER
“RIDERS MUST SPIT IN THEIR FOOD” – DAVID PARENZO, JOURNALIST
“THEIR INVITATIONS NOT TO BE VACCINATED ARE INVITATIONS TO DIE” – MARIO DRAGHI, PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL
“I WILL PUT THE NECESSARY PROBES IN THE USUAL PLACES, I WILL DO IT WITH A BIT MORE PLEASURE” – CESARE MANZINI, NURSE
“I WILL BUCH IT A TEN TIMES THE USUAL VEIN, PRETENDING NOT TO TAKE IT” – FRANCESCA BERTELLOTTI, NURSE
“I HAVE A HEAVY HATE OF NOVAX” – J-AX, SINGER
“IF THE INTENSIVE CARE WILL BE FILLED UP, I WILL WORK TO UNPLUGGET” – CARLOTTA SAPORETTI, NURSE
“NOT VACCINATED? GET AWAY FROM THE COCK! ” – STEFANO BONACCINI, PRESIDENT OF THE EMILIA ROMAGNA REGION
“ONE DAY WE WILL DO AN ETHNIC CLEANING OF NON-VACCINATES, AS THE RWANDAN GOVERNMENT EXTERMINATED EVERYONE” – ALFREDO FAIETA, JOURNALIST
“THE GREEN PASS HAS THE OBJECTIVE OF CRUSHING OPPORTUNISTS AT THE MINIMUM LEVELS” – RENATO BRUNETTA, MINISTER
“IT IS RIGHT TO LET THEM DIE ON THE STREET” – UMBERTO TOGNOLLI, DOCTOR
“PLEASE GOD SO THAT THE NON-VACCINATED MAY INFECT EACH OTHER AND DIE QUICKLY” – GIOVANNI SPANO, DEPUTY MAYOR
“YOU MUST BE HARD AND DISCRIMINATE THOSE WHO DO NOT VACCINATE, IN HOSPITALS, SCHOOLS, WORKPLACES” – FILIPPO MAIOLI, DOCTOR
“BAVA BECCARIS IS NEEDED, THEY SHOULD BE FEED WITH LEAD” – GIULIANO CAZZOLA, JOURNALIST
“SEND THE CARABINIERI TO THEIR HOME” – LUCA TELESE, JOURNALIST
“WE WILL MAKE HIS LIFE DIFFICULT, THEY ARE DANGEROUS” – PIEPAOLO SILERI, HEALTH ADMINISTER
“IT IS POSSIBLE TO CHARGE A PART OF THE MEDICAL EXPENSES, BECAUSE THEY ARE GUILTY OF NOT BEING VACCINATED” – SABINO CASSESE, CONSTITUTIONALIST
“IT WILL NOT BE BEAUTIFUL TO WISH DEATH, BUT SOMEONE WILL FEEL THE LACK OF NOVAX?” – LAURA CESARETTI, JOURNALIST
“IF YOU ARRIVE IN A POSITIVE HOSPITAL, COVID WILL LOOK LIKE A SPA COMPARED TO WHAT I WILL DO” – VANIA ZAVATER, NURSE
“THE NOVAX ARE OUR TALEBANS” – GIOVANNI TOTI, PRESIDENT OF THE LIGURIA REGION
“THEY ARE CRIMINALS, THEY SHOULD BE PERSECUTED AS YOU DO WITH THE MAFIOSIS” – MATTEO BASSETTI, INFECTIVOLOGIST
I would never say something like this.
It is inhumane, imo.
Actually, I enjoyed these 2.5 years of relative silence and peace.
Having nowhere to go but the essential shopping. No need to meet talkative people etc.
That’s how I came to spend quality time on SN. Positively speaking.
No, I agree, Klaus, those kind of utterances are inhumane, and if people don’t want to vaccinate they should be given that freedom. But it’s difficult, what do you do when the unvaccinated mix, or come together with vaccinated at social events? In the end the system of vaccination passports worked quite well.
I still take it as an individual choice.
There will always be people who won’t follow any proposed way of action.
If this is intelligent or not depends on the individual and collective situation one is in, I guess.
As long as other people are not hurt I would not “send the police after them.”
The other side of the anti-maskers and -vaxxers used similar tones of expression.
Behaviour towards others has gone down a lot.
Look at the US (of Violence) A – sheer hatred and aggression.
The ignorance is unbelievable.
That doesn’t seem like a big deal to me, NP.
If people are terrified of a virus, either from monkeys or from military labs, they could stay home and wait for big pharma to sell them the vaccine.
No, I know that because of your religious beliefs you were not afraid of death and you were only worried about the elderly or frail people, targets of the pandemic…but are you sure that an elderly person, in good health or not, who has chosen not to get vaccinated and fought for the right to stay outdoors, in the sun, meeting friends, instead of staying home and being distressed by the tv, can appreciate your Buddhist compassion?
I am a little surprised at the derision I sense in your comment.
Possibly you are ‘knocking on the bush’ to raise some awareness you sense may not be there.
We all have a certain level of compassion which we are sending out, I guess.
As to me, I would appreciate joyfully any improvement people may feel from their confinements.
May everyone be enhanced in their ability to pick up the compassion available in this universe. At home or being outside.
Funny song here:
Las Ketchup – ‘Ketchup Song’
Oh, was that derision? I didn’t notice.
I don’t have particularly strong feelings about the vaxx/non-vaxx debate, I just think it makes sense to help protect your fellow citizens by vaccinating. But it’s a free choice, with some pros and cons.
Well, NP, maybe it wasn’t and it is just me in the dark. Possible!
Back on truck. I’ll answer you when possible, Klaus.
Back to ‘headlights, white lines and black tar rivers’ for Veet.
Levellers, ‘The Road’
Well, I guess he’s a ‘Ramblin Man’…
Lemon Jelly: https://youtu.be/IfU1aorHVQg
I have already written that I normally prefer to “laugh with” rather than “laugh at”, it is a limitation dictated by my inability to feel myself separate from my interlocutor.
It is also true that sometimes the passion of each one in affirming love for life, and its most exciting manifestation, human beings, having no other type of feedback than words and concepts written in a forum, can create rhetorical effects that are not wanted, superimposing the words on its author.
I do not know any of the people with whom I exchange points of view in this forum, I believe that communicating in person would be much easier.
The words of NP (and others) that sometimes sound to me steeped in politically correctness, which seems to be the ideological cause that has allowed a few Nazi oligarchs to plot against humanity in the way of recent years.
Yeah, the limitations of words…I get it.
Maybe I overrated the impression I got.
Also, we can surely face up to a little bit of challenge everynowandthen!
Thumbs up and take good care.
Wish you the best.
Veet old chum, dunno what I’d think about being labelled politically correct. Maybe I don’t have as many weird, outrageous and insulting thoughts as others of your acquaintance. Sorry to be normal.
It strikes me that a lot of religions try to motivate you to follow their beliefs by offering an explanation of what happens beyond death.
The Christians with heaven and hell and purgatory. The buddhists with endless reincarnation and the six realms. Islam with its paradise and rivers of wine and forty virgins for those who died as martyrs. The Norse gods with their Valhalla.
In the end, we cannot truly know, and all these promises which are really based just on what we experience on this world don’t make very much sense.
Perhaps while living we should concern ourselves with being alive totally, by looking to laugh, celebrate, enjoy, be creative, and not spend too much time looking at death.
Do not stand at my grave and weep.
I am not there. I do not sleep.
I am a thousand winds that blow,
I am the diamond glints on snow.
I am the sunlight on ripened grain,
I am the gentle autumn rain.
When you awaken in the morning hush
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circled flight,
I am the soft stars that shine at night.
Do not stand at my grave and cry,
I am not there. I did not die.
Beautiful, NP, thanks.
Was this Clare Harner’s one and only major poem, I wonder, as I can find little or nothing about her online.
I found this when looking for a poem for a Buddhist friend who had recently lost his mother, it is popular for eulogies and funerals though I had not come across it before. Clare Harner wrote it in 1934 and had it published in a magazine. She did not write many other poems, and was employed as a journalist.