I notice that the Dalai Lama met with Deepak Chopra recently in Dharamsala, HP. This is reported in Osho News as presumably good news for the evolution of consciousness.
But is it?
What is so attractive about an old-time religion that is run in essentially a feudal manner?
For example, the men and women are still separated in the monasteries with all the predictably depressing results of closet homosexual activity and heterosexual power abuse. All hushed up with an efficiency that would make a Catholic bishop jealous! This is not just in the in the westernised scenes such as Shambhala and Sogyal Rinpoche, it’s across the board, and also rampant in the Dalai Lama`s own monastery, where the meeting took place.
Despite all this, sympathetic westerners, who include a lot of Osho sannyasins, have an idea, as reported in the article, that this man and his org have some special kudos or validity in saying how the world should be run and how kids should be brought up!
DL comes over as a nice ond buffer, for sure, and he trots out stuff like:
“So, my brothers and sisters, now we should be active to bring [about a] happy world, peaceful century, step by step” and “I think India should be more active regarding promotion [of] religious harmony.”
But then again, so do the Pope and his cronies.
I remember, back in `83, Osho sent a couple of female therapists to some world religious meeting where they stood up (on Osho`s orders) and confronted the Dalai Lama about the inequality of women in the religious orders and addressed him as “Your Phoniness” as opposed to “Your Holiness”.
Does that kind of yippy/encounter kick-ass stuff not apply now we are all in the nuage together, happily singing our mantras ?
I wonder what the SN punters think of all this (if anything)?
The Dalai Lama touches people in a feeling way I guess. Enables them to set aside intellectualising, which always leads to ‘the glass is half-empty, completely empty.’
He’s like a kind relative who is on your side, who has your best interests at heart and won’t bully you into behaving as he thinks you should. I doubt his fans know about all the other stuff.
Rather like Eckhart Tolle in that friendly, non-confrontational manner. That certainly pulls in the punters, no doubt about that.
Spiritually, humanity is living in Middle Ages, and these gentlemen plus Pope Francis are the lamp bearers of those mass movements which are full with big blah blah…5th class lessons for moral science students.
Many times to see such meetings, I feel China has done the best, what it could do, simply to delete so-called spirituality from their land.
Cosmos is Blessing China.
Religion in China is to believe in the communist party.
If life quality of the citizens gets improved, then Communist party too is a good religion.
In 21st century, humans are the gods.
Hitler also improved life quality of the citizens. Does this mean he created a good religion? Better thinking before writing!
What an idiotic comparison, Satchit. Cannot you use the example of living being among 8.25 billion people?
China is doing wonderfully, whether white people like it not.
China is doing great compared to India, where I don´t know how many gurus and masters are living.
If I have to choose, Shantam,
I would rather live in India than in China.
In China you have more executions than in the rest of the world.
Shantam Prem declares:
“China is doing wonderfully, whether white people like it not.”
Well, the people of Hong Kong don’t seem to like it – would you describe them as white?
Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!
Your keen grasp of international politics is indeed as impressive as the keen grasp you have of own vital organ whilst watching latest Chinese Chan Porn XXX vids!
Certainly Tibet and Hong Kong should be ethnically cleansed as per your diktat, as should Whiteskin enclave in Koregaon Park!
Your logic is impeccable: Every brownskin in Goraland should support Donald Trump who considers all gobby brownskins “Stone cold losers”!
Only one steeped and sodden with the wisdom that pours from the bowels of mighty Bhorat could come to such a conclusion!
Continue the work of mighty Bhorat, bhai, and your attacks on snowflake whiteskin lefties without whose help mighty lingam would never have been oiled and balls tickled by female of the gora species!
Your self-awareness is exemplary!
Yahoo!
Hari Om!
That incredible social commentator Satchit says, “Better thinking before writing!”
Makes me wonder if he is advising himself with some badly needed advice.
He declares, “Hitler also improved life quality of the citizens.”
Obviously he never visited post-war Berlin or Dresden or any number of ruined cities in the Fatherland.
“Better thinking before writing!”
Really, man, how can anyone get it together to write such utter bullshit? I suggest that we put those two great no mind-minds, Shantam and Satchit, in a new coalition and call them ‘The SS’ for short.
Loco, I am slowly worried about you that you go into dementia.
Certainly I did not talk about post-war. I talk about before war.
Ever heard of things like Volkswagen or German Autobahn?
For both the gentlemen, “Lols”.
Ever heard of Achtung Babe?
Yes, Lokesh, hear it from the neo-Nazi skinheads here when they´re into stalking-terror – with or without their girls.
It’s quite some other area here than that you are accustomed to.
Madhu
Perfectly correct, Madhu!
Neo-Nazi skinheads like Lokesh and sexist mysogynists like Frank are certainly committing war crimes and terrorism by calling you a catholic sannyasin and moving and hiding the reply button on SN Chat realities in the here and now!
Certainly, it is time to contact the White Coat Brotherhood!
Yahoo!
Madhu, you know very little about my life and have therefore zero idea about what I am accustomed to.
Yes, if you ignore virtually destroying the entire country in the second half of the match, I mean war, Hitler certainly improved material conditions (except, unfortunately, for a few million Jews – but who cares about them anyway?) for er, about, er, 6 or 7 years.
So to state he “improved the quality of life of the citizens” is a misleading semi-truth that would only appeal to those for whom “better thinking” holds no attraction.
There’s a job waiting for the likes of you at Donald Trump’s HQ, Satchit; with thoroughly specious claptrap like that you’d be a fine fit indeed!
To make it clear, the point was:
Is a system good if it improves material conditions of its citizens? (Shantam thought so about China).
My example with Hitler was an argument AGAINST his idea, nothing more.
Seems some of you didn’t get it.
So it was also not a question of the whole war story at all.
Reading helps and understanding helps even more!
Satchit, I understood your point but I was arguing against the example you provide, which is flawed.
What is flawed in the example?
Certainly it is a semi-truth. I never pretended that it is the whole truth.
And it was also not the subject to write the whole truth.
That’s precisely why it’s flawed!
No, it’s not flawed.
Want to play the ‘hook-game’ once more?
Choosing Hitler’s extremely brief period of economic success to make your point wasn’t ideal. Better to cite another example.
Tonight’s homework: Please find one.
Ideal or not.
Old habits die hard?
Is it true that you were a teacher in past
life?
Old habits die hard.
Write out 500 times: ‘I must try harder to be less deficient in the humour department.’
Aha…
This is a contribution article from faceless Frank aka Dentist Divinegeet!
Faceless frank must know, when trees are uprooted, grass and mushrooms grow on their own.
This is the dilemma of those youths now moving towards care homes, who were hanging around Osho and His commune; now neither commune is nor the master, and these people feel envious with the old shops doing brisk business.
I have always liked and appreciated the Dalai Lama. He is a wonderful man, handed a very difficult job and his intelligence and humour always shine through.
I have occasionally contemplated the Dalai Lama’s refusal to back an armed struggle against the Chinese invaders. I think he has embraced such a stance because he knows that in the long run violence is bad for people, no matter the injustices heaped upon Tibetans. He understands that there exists a bigger picture and he is sticking to his prayer flag and giving the world a great example by doing so.
Of course, we will always have cretins like Shantam giving voice to their ignorance, as in, “I feel that China has done the best what it could do, simply to delete so-called spirituality from their land.”
How utterly awful that a so-called sannyasin should have adopted such a flippant, pea-brained attitude, filled with the human atrocities that go with it. A plague upon his ignorance.
Yes, the old Tibet was ruled by feudalism. The thing is, it worked and allowed some of the greatest spiritual seekers in history to have the space to explore the inner world and bring back their discoveries for the benefit of not just Tibetans but mankind as a whole. ‘The Tibetan Book of The Dead’ being just one small example of this.
As for Deepak Chopra, I see him as a sign of the times, jumping on the bandwagon with his pop culture version of spirituality, and in the process gaining fame and fortune. Sound familiar? It should. Nothing new there.
The separation of men and women in spiritual societies is also nothing new. Osho moved in the opposite direction by putting the men and women together and creating one of the most promiscuous societies in modern history. There is a common denominator. Both of these social constructs make it difficult to form strong emotional bonds and instead the emotional energy that normally is directed towards creating a meaningful relationship and perhaps a family is instead directed towards the guru or the Buddha.
Personally, I do not see anything wrong with that, but I do see something wrong with not understanding that is how it works.
Lokesh,
The Dalai Lama – bloody hell. Not a critical word.
Did he take sannyas from you or something?
What an endorsement. Does he know?
Nelson Mandela is dead now, so the other man I would love to meet is..? Guess who.
Mike Tyson?
No, my oldest Scottish friend, who lives in Amsterdam, and I have known since I was 5, and I have not been with physically in 8 years.
Thanks, Lokesh, coming up at the end of this day with such a considerable down-to-earth comment re the topic and more so re Shantam´s unbearable reactions on his keyboard.
“A plague on his ignorance” you say and I second that, knowing though in the course of quite a long time here, that he and comparables are in a monstroeus way totally immune to any correctional input. They just don´t care ….
Before you distributed some oxygen for the chat-climate re today´s given topic I was busy for hours recapturing the essence of Bob Dylan´s ‘Ballad of a Thin Man’ (1965!)…feeling that also these quite essential lyrics of this ballad might not be of any help meanwhile – as these kind of ´Mister Joneses´ have been becoming quite a lot in these times! Haven’t they?!
Madhu
Indeed they have, Madhu.
Just read this article, which I find relative to Frank’s topic:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/06/has-tibet-finally-lost-out-to-china/?fbclid=IwAR02HsUUw2o9kqZ0BUGT8ZHtVlkJ4jJuyYmWAhAL8EjYgygFHdCO-o9vwOU
Lokesh is quite a clever chap, like many other Sagittarius people.
He can use logic in any form.
I don´t like such foxy people who play to the gallery.
“Both of these social constructs make it difficult to form strong emotional bonds and instead the emotional energy that normally is directed towards creating a meaningful relationship and perhaps a family is instead directed towards the guru or the Buddha.”
Ah, now I understand, Lokesh.
You killed the Buddha on the road to have a meaningful relationship.
Say ‘hello’ from me to your German wife!
The image of Tibetans all being super-spiritual could be like, for example, expecting all Irish people to be writers, singers and dancing riverdance at the drop of a hat!
What I`m addressing, I think, is idealisations by westerners. Based on something, of course, but hugely imaginary.
Imaginary is not a bad thing.
The other evening I watched a movie, ‘Van Gogh and Japan’. It was fascinating. Through recently discovered letters written by Van Gogh, art historians have found out that Van Gogh was obsessed with Japanese art. The letters reveal that not only did Japanese art have have an influence on his style, but that for him it became an ideal guiding light and something follow and to aspire to.
He imagined that their art came from a kind of ideal place and he wanted to bring this through. He idealised what he knew about Japan to cast it as a kind of artistic paradise. He judged his own work on how `Japanese` it was in his mind. His self-portrait of 1888 is him with shaved head and even slightly slanted eyes as a Japanese artist-monk. He never went to Japan but this vision pulled him on and was instrumental in him producing some of the great and unique work that he is remembered for.
Of course, what he created was really what came through him, or his own unique thing, but he managed it by `othering` it with his idiosyncratic dream of Japanese artistic and cultural perfection, which was largely, mostly his own creation, too.
Maybe Tibet has been something like that for us 20th century seekers. Starting from the books of Lobasng Rampa and Alexandra David Neel and deliberately alluded to and played on by those myth-makers and sly men and women of the path, Blavatsky and Gurdjieff.
Of course there is some historical kernel of truth but it is mostly a kind of guiding light structured from an imaginary interpretation of which the true significance is in the present…
It could be a mistake to imagine that our dream, valid, worthy and necessary as it may be, is the reality for present day Tibetans, any more than 19th century Japan could really have been as ideal as Van Gogh imagined it.
But the dream facilitates a change in reality.
Btw, the idea of Tibetan non-violence is misguided . Historically, those guys were hard as nails and they gave the Chinese a good kicking on more than one occasion. If they hadn`t they would already have been part of China anyway.
I think I mentioned it once here on SN that I personally knew one of the Dalai Lama’s 12 bodyguards who escorted him out of Tibet. The guy was build like a brick outhouse, had one eye, a huge scar down his cheek and I would wager that not one who ever met him thought, “Here`s a non-violent sort of chap!”
And Loke, I do get that free love and celibacy can both be used to channel attention away from personal relationships and onto God/guru. Nevertheless, the repression of sex and women is a global phenomenon, not just monastic.
And it is true that the Tibetan word for woman is kyemän, meaning ‘low birth’, which also reflects badly on one of the functions of the reincarnation theory. Ie, “Better luck next time, now where`s me dinner?!”
Common phenomenon, Frank.
Demonisation or idealisation.
Variation of glass is half-full, half-empty.
Absolutely right. Absolutely wrong.
Black-and-white thinking.
It`s maybe relevant that a large proportion of people were introduced to Tibet and Buddhism through utterly fantastical accounts in the first place. Lobsang Rampa, the occult sci-fi writer is a biggie. His books still sell. Also Herge’s Tintin in Tibet, the kids cartoon which the DL recently honoured.
What about Tibetan Pulsing? Did they really do that stuff in ancient monasteries? Or was it just made up like most nuage stuff?. Osho said his Nadabrahma meditation was from Tibet. The Tibetan monks do mumbling and throaty mantra chanting and so on, but no one has found that they ever did just straight humming. Of course its all occult so the fact that it isn`t mentioned anywhere just shows that it’s occult. Checkmate!
All this stuff comes from meditation, which is silence. But out of the silence seems to come an avalanche and torrent of imaginative mythical creativity and invention. In the same way as God dreams the universe, I suppose.
Maybe people who were perplexed by Osho`s statement, “I leave you my dream”, saying that he always wanted to wake people up, so would never have said such a thing, might consider that on the pilgrimage from here to here, to pass the time before we slip into timelessness, what we want/need is to hear and dream some rollicking good yarns.
Check this out, Frank.
Interesting.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Storytelling-Animal-Stories-Make-Human/dp/0544002342
The storytelling animal: Jonathan Gottschall at TEDxFurmanU
https://youtu.be/Vhd0XdedLpY
I love rollicking good yarns.
Yeah, right, Nadabrahma is an old Tibetan meditation. I always wondered how the Tibetans managed to get their hands on a stroboscope.
Ah well, live is mystery to be lived….
“Ah well, life is a mystery to be lived…( not a problem to be solved…).”
Good quote (!), btw, Lokesh, and good to be reminded every now and then, when the swordmanship educational congregations are throwing lots of ´babies out with the bath water´…(for purifying reasons or whatsoever other ideological, biased reasons).
Madhu
Yes, Frank boy, when individuals romanticize the ugly, it’s to make money, very understandable. What is not understandable is why people believe it – only using the imagination? How fucking gullible are we?
You say, “out of silence seems to come an avalanche and torrent of imaginative mystical creativity and invention”. If out of silence comes imagination, then Osho is mistaken, which I don’t agree with. Subjectively speaking, Osho was or is quite right.
Maybe imagination comes from a quietened mind? And a quietened mind is as dull as an active mind, subjectively speaking, of course.
By the way, great article, and well timed, old Devil!
Cheers and thanks!
Thanks, Tan.
In reply to your query, I like what that old sexist misogynist Mr Right baccy addict Bidi Baba said:
“It is in the nature of being to seek adventure in becoming, as it is in the nature of becoming to seek peace in being. This alternation of being and becoming is inevitable.”
If being is silence and becoming is going somewhere, which needs imagination, then they dovetail in and out of each other ad infinitum. I get that.
Bidi Baba goes on to say “but my home is beyond.”
I don`t get that bit.
I probably need some of God’s grace, a flash of lightning in the clown chakra, a boot up the kundalini or a shot of toad serum before I get to that.
Cheers.
Thanks, Frank boy.
Bidi Baba says: ”This alternation of being and becoming is inevitable.”
And Osho said and I quote by memory: “Becoming is just a thought because there is no future, just the here and now. Drop the mind.”
So, pass me the toad!
P.S:
First time I come across the word “dovetail”. Love it! XX
Dheeraj, the Tibetan Pulsing guy.
He was a biker who drank a lot in his youth, became spiritual and hung out with H.H. the Karmapa lama who happened to be living around the L.A. area around 1983. The Karmapa sent him to Osho who was in the city of Rajneeshpuram at the time, where he took sannyas. Dheeraj also met the Dalai Lama.
Late Dheeraj – Swamishanti – the Founder of what once was called ´Tibetan Pulsing´- does not deserve to be added here with obvious no own experiential knowing at all from your side to the demeaning, defaming wave, which came here into its gears.
Attending pulsing-workshops (long, long ago), I´ve been scared of his power and yet need to say that he had a mind-blowing and exclusive knowledge about the mind-body-spirit structures.
The female facilitators of this former ´Pulsing Brigade´ I could much better cope with, and some of them I knew personnally.
Anyway, it’s all snow from yesterday and many previous yesterdays…
He (Dheeraj) died in Italy, times ago.
This whole movement in the sannyas movement (re health care) went through all transformative happenings like anything, what in seemingly ancient times once was visible as a strong ‘filter bubble’ as one would say nowadays.
I lost contact with any of those I knew, even his long and beautiful Lover and co-facilitator, whom I met by chance and surprisingly in the nineties on a buddhist retreat.
Not only for her, I feel to send to you these lines, Swamishanti, re your shortcut with that strange pic into this thread topic.
Madhu
Yes, I am aware who Dheeraj was. I did not participate in Tibetan Pulsing although I do have friends who have.
As it happens I used to live next door to a biker for many years, a member of the Outlaws, but we got along just fine.
The only time we had any issue was one night when I was playing around on my computer and creating some music and he came around at around one’ o clock in the morning and complained that I was keeping him and his missus awake. I apologised for that and after then we became friendly. Those flats had very thin walls and we could hear everything.
I do not see how the picture of Dheeraj with the Dalai Lama is out of place here, after all he did have a connection with Tibetan Lamas. And , I was in no way meaning to demean him.
Thanks for sharing your story, Swamishanti.
You – me – most of us do not know much, if anything, about late Dheeraj´s Tibetan Lama connection. Deva Kalpa (whom I mentioned) and some very few more might know more, but what I loved about Kalpa in particular: she wasn´t into gossiping at all, at least when I met her – or comparables from that so-called ´inner circle´.
My own impression was/is that the whole stuff dissolved into transforming for the more sensitive and better, I hope – AND before that, late Dheeraj anyway and maybe some others paid their debts for their karmic trial-and- error stuff, what may have induced harm or maybe not.
So – it’s a closed chapter in a way and I didn´t like it used here in that utterly shortened way by you as an author.
Your story, on the other hand, with neighbours, felt kind of known by me, from times ago of your writing, btw.
And that story tells about the insight, what good a communication and sharing can do if the effort is undertaken.
Always good to have some context. And thank you for that.
Madhu
Tibetan pulsing was pretty powerful stuff.
But I have to be honest here and say that compared to Mongolian Pumping, it was pretty lightweight. Tame, even.
On my last trip to Inner Mongolia I was staying in a yurt with some nomads in a site on the outskirts of Ulan Bator, when by a series of extraordinary synchronicities, I happened to meet a Mongolian shaman who was part of a lineage that could be traced all the way back to the time when Kubla Khan built his legendary Pleasuredome.
Oddly enough, like Dheeraj, he was a heavy drinker and, over a few jars of the local firewater, he revealed that he also had Scottish ancestry. His name was Ghengis McEwan. He told me some extraordinary stories about his mindblowing and extensive experiences of black and white magic.
Most extraordinary of all, he had even once been called to Pune to extract some pretty nasty entities from Osho`s aura which had been put there by some rogue lamas, sannyasins and German cultists by shooting them through the roof of the pyramids with some powerful black magic mantras sung to the tune of the marching song from Stanley Kubrick`s ‘Full Metal Jacket’.
I don`t really want to say too much about it all, because, like Madhu says, it`s probably better to avoid gossiping in these matters. Maybe I will write an article about it some day, or maybe not. It`s not really up to me, it`s up to them.
Well, Tibetan Pulsing chapter isn’t entirely closed yet, there are still several facilitators around the world.
Pyramids or no pyramids.
Seems it’s still drawing seekers in for a fix.
Not sure if it still happens in Pune these days.
Good and educational post, Frank. I have not visited Tibet, but I have been close to the border and met many Tibetans of all sorts. In general I found them to be cheery and hearty folk.
Hi Frank,
I´ve been prefering watching your dicussion-starter myself before then following your lines (and the discussion if one is able to call it a discussion).
Saw the DL slapping Deepak Chopra on his right-side cheek (quite strongly) before the other greeting ceremonials took place (the nose-to-nose stuff). It was an exhausting watch all in all (for me).
Most of the questions (some were ´quests´) from the audience of the Chopra group have not been responded by the DL, who pointed out the importance that the now happening 21st century should be urgently switched into an Century of Dialogue (instead of committing war-crimes on and on!).
I can relate to the latter. Very much so.
The vid I saw is just one of the innumerable examples of the fact how difficult that is. And how often we all fail.
Back to our SN/UK Chat ´realities´ in the here-now:
I feel the need to share with you (you are one of the very early ‘birds’ here in this Chat) that your way to play the Female´s Advocate (rarely but every now and then) obviously more belongs to one of your dream-identities; I cannot confirm that as a woman and female sannyasin, sorry to say.
Being targeted by you and other buddhies, called “a catholic sannyasin” and whateve variations of other pretty sexist or mysogynistic variations has not been fun, the least to say.
In the recent thread, where some of our regulars honoured our late editor, you made a remarkable ´remark´ about C.G.Jung’s “synchronicity” theorems. You even spoke of a ´White Coat Brotherhood´. A good spark of Light in my eyes.
And then you said: “Whereas in reality it seems to be more like an artistic, poetic, existentual ´right-brained´ wyred´ attitude towards Life.” ( It was one of those pretty closed-for-others exchanges here, this time with Arpana).
When I wanted to respond, this Chat thread had been closed.
But anyway; maybe it’s also good to have it here?
To let a question mark BE, when the right-brain wyred attitudes of Mister Rights become just too exhausting. And worse….
Madhu
Dear Madhu,
In your uniquely convoluted but unmistakably niggly style, it`s often hard to decipher what you are actually saying. In this case it seems to be that I`m a sexist, misogynistic, faux-feminist Mr Right who doesn`t pay you, representative of sannyas womanhood, enough attention.
Can you confirm this?
Yeah, Frank, just read Madhu’s comment. I could hear Eric Clapton singing ‘Rambling On My Mind’.
No, Frank (and Lokesh too), I cannot confirm your way to put it!
Madhu
What I have loved the most about Dalai Lama is his denial that he is enlightened.
When every 10th Tom Dick and Honey in the sannyas world craves to be Enlightened or declare themselves Enlightened masters, I love utter humility of High Priest of Tibetan Buddhism.
MOD:
Post edited. Second paragraph your ongoing agenda, Shantam, irrelevant to the topic.
Deepak Chopra is one of those few Indians who have created success story in the western civilization by teaching and preaching everyday wisdom of Indian grandmothers.
Nothing wrong in it. Success surely matters in the world.
I have heard numerous times Indians talking in their sermons, “Nothing goes with us when we die, neither the big houses nor the shops”, but not a single one has mentioned that ashrams also don´t go with us. If money does not go, books too do not go!
After audition with Dalai Lama, Mr. Chopra also has the similar video of audience with India´s most successful guru till now, Shri jaggi Vasudev!
“I remember, back in `83, Osho sent a couple of female therapists to some world religious meeting where they stood up (on Osho`s orders) and confronted the Dalai Lama about the inequality of women in the religious orders and addressed him as “Your Phoniness” as opposed to “Your Holiness”.”
The above paragraph gave me the thought to check various quotations and maxims about Pride. In school, we had one such, “Pride has its fall.”
Time, through people´s perception, shows where lies the phoniness and where is the substance.
As I have heard or read somewhere, Dalai Lama has accepted that Chinese invasion has done wonders for the spreading of Tibetan Buddhism in the western world.
One can ask, why western society accepted a monk from the alien belief with reverence but didn’t give a toss for someone who was claiming to be on the same footing as Buddha, so much so, “After every 2500 centuries someone of that height is born, and here is the one, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh!”
Many of my friends have told me many times during last 20 years, “Shantam, don´t be disheartened, Buddha´s work also took 25 centuries to spread in the world.”
When we look at the speed of vehicles and thoughts and population demography, it seems every year few centuries get passed.
One of the common facts among sannyasins I have observed is that they rarely read something else, or simply the leftist liberal propaganda, with this simplified logic: Barrack Obama is an angel, Donald Trump is a demon.
@ Anand Yogi ( 19 June at 10.12pm)
As usual, Anand Yogi, you did fuel the fire herewith, giving the two buddhies, Lokesh and ´Frank´, even more opportunities for even more deliberate misunderstandings and perversions on behalf of my contributions (not only re this topic).
One cannot say that you don´t know what you are doing; sometimes as quite a mean ´clown´, I´d say!
Madhu
Perfectly correct, Madhu!
Your posts are written so clearly, concisely and to the point (possibly even challenging the rarified levels that your compatriot Shantambhai reaches) that only a spiritual terrorist or war criminal such as these vile neo-Nazi skinhead baboons could or would possibly imply or create any misunderstandings around them!
Yahoo!
You’re a very naughty boy, Anand Yogi. Stop trying to rationalise your naughtiness.
@ Friends (& re the topic),
Quite very recently I found in Oshonews the following excerpt and quote. *
As a ´HOT Chillies´** section it could be valuable to read it here again:
“Power – in the hands of ignorant, retarded crowds is self destructive…
Existence does not support those who are nothing but living lies.
They may have much power, but their own power will destroy them….”
And in this lecture series part, the Master is then presenting lots of historical examples for theses concerning calamities in regard to Humankind at large.
Question is, who DID/DOES listen, hear, read what was/is talked about?!
Good morning, Friends of Meditation and more….
Madhu
* Quote is taken from ‘Om Mane Padme Hum’, CH 25, Q1
** “Hot Chillies” can be a good medicine if taken with awareness and in good measures…it even can heal obsessions and ambitions.
Sometimes….
@ Frank (in general)
You know, Frank, what I loved re late Parmartha (our last editor) the most?
It was his integrity to stick to that which I would call the ‘Shadow-Work’, and in particular I loved that a part of his social work was dedicated to victims of Torture.
Kept me going here in this Chat.
There are enough people, I suggest, who mix up ‘Shadow-Work’ (inner) with what I would call ´shadowing ambitional undertakings´ (manipulations). The latter, in my experience, do much harm upon harm upon harm.
To differenciate the one from the other is an ongoing effort, hopefully taken at heart! Never ending, I guess.
Madhu
Quite right, Madhu. Like I said, Mongolian Plumbing is a powerful technique. Even talking about it can produce extraordinary effects. All things considered, I really don`t think that I will say any more on the matter as many just aren`t yet ready for the extraordinary release of blocked energy it can bring about.
Nevertheless, rest assured that the potent Mongolian pumping shamanic tool that Ghengis McCann passed down to me is in safe hands and on the ready for whenever it may come in useful.
Nothing quite like a Mongolian plunger for loosening up sludge blocked in the shadowing ambitional undertakings. Must not be used unless a winged eel fingerling donkey mask is worn to protect against inhalations of laser bean gas.
@ Swamishanti (20 June at 9.08 pm)
The few occasions in the early nineties where I came a little bit closer experientially to the Pulsing community IN the sannyas community, I met facilitators who were rooted (before) in the Neo-Reichian Bodywork and the sannyasin-participators, like me too, didn´t come for a “fix”, as you put it, but to get more in a flow and in peace in regards to feeling stuck or in pain in some way, and wanted to get over it, so to say.
I neither know (even now) by your latest contribution what may be your own concern of going mentally into that matter, nor your motivations, fantasising about what is happening nowadays in regard to the wherever happening Tibetan Pulsing.
To feel the Pulse of Life is a deep experience of our life in the body with all its connections to consciousness issues.
I´m sick in the body at the moment unfortunately and really would love a good treat and more awareness, which can be indeed be helped by a good and sensitive session, with a facilitator who doesn´t misuse power, btw.
And to relax into the fact that I´m not able at the moment to give that to me (financially) is truly a challenge on its own accord.
But what I can give to me is an ongoing meditative effort to accept.
To accept what is. In the present moment.
And such is good for the (a) Pulse of Life anyway.
Madhu
Ah, the nineties, the naughty nineties.
When Glastonbury was still a decent festival and a meeting place of the tribes, with its big, black Pyramid stage, lit up at the top, various sound systems , several other stages, sometimes featuring quite excellent lineups , green fields , comedy tents, stone circles and lots of geodesic earth domes and a tipi field. One could get in for free if one knew people in the right places. Or work in various on- site cafe’s with their own live music acts . Or failing that , just jump over the fence. All night pumping parties with a psychedelic skyline as a backdrop.
Before it became an over-commercialised, televised event with a large police presence and lots of beer tents. Lines of Rastas and other folks would be standing along the main drag at night, shouting out and selling their wares openly, and the Hari Krishnas had their own tent smelling of incense where they gave out a tasteless crappy dahl with rice on paper plates to the revellers, complete with complementary ‘Bhagavad Gitas’.
Meanwhile, lots of men and women drove their buses and coaches around the British countryside to various free events and festivals.
Thatcher’s government had decided to put an end to the large annual free festival at the summer solstice at Stonehenge , which had been growing bigger each year and attracting more people from the inner cities since the early seventies. Roadblocks around the area where set up in 1985 and violent police action ensued. After that , in 1986, with the Public Order Act, the government had granted the police more powers to break up free events and gatherings, involving more than twelve vehicles, but certain other criteria were meant to be met by the police , in order to be able to enforce an end to a free festival. But after this the travellers who were traditionally organising and meeting at these events, found themselves under more pressure from police.
In 1992, after being unable to hold the Avon Free Festival , which had been a regular yearly event since the eighties ,because of the police refusing to allow the travellers to hold their event at various traditional locations , as well as one generous landowner who happened to be the owner of Rodborough Fort in Stroud who was more than happy to allow the travellers to hold the festival on her land, ( as she told the tv reporters) and being moved around from one place to another ,and stuck in a convoy by the side of a road in Gloucestershire, it was decided in a meeting to move to the Malvern Hills, to Castlemorton . (Although another story is that it was West Mercia Police decided to confine the convoy to Castlemorton Common). But after 20,000- 40,000 people unexpectedly turned up and partied and raved for a week at Castlemorton Common , the numbers growing daily as ravers heard about the event through word of mouth ,an answerphone message giving away the location and the tv news reports of the gathering and after the week long all night rave and the shanty-town of travellers and the complaints of local residents, it gave the Tories the chance to put a stop to the free festival culture once and for all, and , the growing underground rave scene at the same time , killing two birds with one stone, and they brought out some draconian legislation, the Criminal Justice Act and Public Order Act 1994 , which effectively made large outdoor free parties illegal , even going to far as to target specific music genres: Section 63 of the 1994 Act giving police the power to shut down events featuring music that’s “characterised by the emission of a succession of repetitive beats”.
It wasn’t only the party scene that would be affected by the bill – the council’s duty to provide permanent sites for travellers would be repealed; police would have new powers of unsupervised stop and search; the right to silence would be impinged; and the criminalisation of “disruptive trespass” would have far-reaching consequences for squatters, travellers and protesters alike.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_uk/article/vd8gbj/anti-rave-act-protests-20th-anniversary-204
The new legislation made it increasingly difficult for travelers to continue their nomadic lifestyle and the organising of the free festivals that were such a large part of their culture.
The Tories hated the idea of people being able to gather and party for free…and attempts at ‘alternative living’ . Maggie Thatcher had actually said that “we are only too delighted to do anything we can to make life difficult for such things as hippie convoys” (1986)
“New age travellers? Not in this age. Not in any age.” (John Major 1992)
Happy Summer Solstice today…
Meanwhile, over in India the full-moon parties continued and the Goa trance scene was just taking off. The parties also flourished up in the mountains , in areas such as the Parvati Valley.
Scores of wannabe gurus emerged who had been popped out of their minds from their visits to Poonja, who had helped them to have some sense of freedom but apparently he later said none of them were enlightened.
The satsang scene was born and started touring Europe and lots of them didn`t have anything like Osho`s presence, but one or two of them are of a high calibre.
Meanwhile, back in Poona, wannabe gurus from other traditions were visiting Poona and trying to cash in on the booming scene there after Osho had left the body. Some of them held satsangs in the pyramids for a while.
And a few homegrown Sannyas teachers popped up who were still completely immersed in the energy of the master.
Poona was booming in those years. Do you feel as if you benefited from your Tibetan Pulsing sessions, Madhu, do you recommend them? Or do you rate other practices more highly?
Thanks, Swamishanti, for your response yesterday (at 3.51 pm). And your questions.
I left Pune and the Ashram in mid-1990, and no, I didn´t take any Tibetan Pulsing indivudual sessions or some few groups with Dheeraj or other facilitaors there, but shortly afterwards in Munich. (Never have been to Glastonbury, btw).
In the Ashram in India, around 1990 it had felt at that time a bit awkward (to me) seeing and feeling the strong energy around and about the ‘Pulsing Brigade’, as I called it. Especially when they appeared quite military-looking with their eyepads (left or right blind-folds) and sometimes with Dheeraj, who was holding a Tibetan flag.
As I said, I knew some friends from before that time, who´d been deeply involved with that kind of energy and body-mind-spirit-work.
You´re asking if I would recommend the work? I wouldn´t say that I would recommend anything to others, at least for the reason that I don´t know at all where and what it has meanwhile transformed into.
What I wouldn´t like to miss out of my own experience is the energetically strong ‘encounter’, to be all linked in a kind of energetic mandala, so to say. NO ESCAPE!
In the group called ´Fresh Air´, for instnace, quite a very heavy body-buddhie was sitting on me, pumping on my chest and ribs (while I was linked with feet and arms into the big round circle) this pumping rousing deep anxiety that he would break my rips doing so.
There and then, I experienced Dheeraj as a skilful group leader, running from very far (as we were a very large circle and energetic mandala!) and helping with just one strong touch to ease the utter pain, and that without (!) changing a bit the structure of that heavy pulsing-pumping mandala at all. Unforgettable, amazing.
Like other – much more pleasurable – experiences I had (of just becoming ´just one particle in the whole´ and how that feels like) especially in the women´s group.
So there were strong ´lessons´ – and then also, as I had friends at that time who were committed (some over many years) and they shared with me lots of contextual stuff (like literature, music, organ-times…and what not, from what they had been learning about…trying to combine ancient Tibetan medicine with modern western culture and science, so to say).
For me (not the latter East-West aspects of approaches in general) the connection to this former recognisable (in-) group is a long closed chapter.
Your other parts of your report, ie about the “wave” of wannabe gurus, touches me, Swamishanti, but I´m anxious about falling into some traps of my bitterness…and there are quite some….
So – have a nice day today, Swamishanti – and I ll try my best to open up to same-same, today in the here-now.
Madhu
And a P.S. for Swamishanti:
To learn to cope with the fact: “NO ESCAPE” realities in sensible and skilfully led group intalled situation and to get needed help (!) if you are in danger to get lost into traumata is very valuable stuff.
What you also can learn there and then, that ‘your’ trauma is coming from a ‘context’ and that resolving trauma is not only good for ‘you’ but for the so-called ‘whole’ as well.
The ways dealing with those contextual experiences are mostly dealt in very inhuman ways. Like when a group majority of unconscious people are just looking for a ‘scapegoat’, so to say.
Thanks, Madhu.
The free festival at Castlemorton in 1992 became a huge event which attracted an estimated 20,000 to 40,000 people, the biggest of its kind since the Stonehenge Free Festival in the mid-1980s.
Although it was originally set up and organised at the last minute by travellers, because Avon and Somerset Police tried to end the annual Avon Free Festival, which had been held in the Bristol area around the May Bank Holiday for several years. As a result, hundreds of travellers en route to the area for the expected festival were shunted into neighbouring counties by Avon and Somerset’s ‘Operation Nomad’ .
Ending up stuck by the side of the road in a large convoy in Gloucestershire,
they had made a last minute choice to move to the Malvern Hills in Worcestershire to Castelmorton Common , expecting a festival of perhaps no more than 600 people, unexpectedly 20,000 – 40,000 people turned up, mostly young ravers, attracted by an answerphone message giving away the location of the party and word of mouth , as well as tv news reports of a massive free party and a large collection of hippies.
Many of the large sound systems of the time where there such as Bedlam, Circus Warp, Spiral Tribe and DiY Sound System, and bands such as Back To The Planet.
This massive mother of all raves which lasted for days led to the Tory goverment of the time bringing out some draconian legislation, the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, effectively making large outdoor free raves and festivals illegal, especially where a group of more than twelve vehicles were gathered.
There were reports of a very good time and a positive vibe by the revellers who attended the party, which began during a sunny May bank holiday weekend and lasted a week, but it was the travellers who had originally organised the event, not expecting such a large gathering, who were left to clean up the mess – and who largely took the blame.
Thirteen members of the Spiral Tribe sound system who were also involved in organisation were arrested after the event, and charged with public order offences. But after a lengthy and costly trial, they were acquitted.
Tory government’s since Thatcher have always hated the idea of people having a good time for free.
https://youtu.be/C7IHkSeKBpM
Re article:
Basically, there is nothing wrong if spiritual leaders from the West and the East are meeting and shaking hands or rubbing their noses.
Maybe it gives hope to the world that the New Man is coming soon.
No, no, Lokesh.
You’re a pundit.
A pundit is an expert in a particular subject or field who is frequently called upon to give their opinions to the public.
Arpana, I do not really see myself like that, but if you say I am a pundit it must be true.
Congratulations on your brief moment of self-awareness, Lokesh.
Lokesh is a pundit. In which category you will put yourself, Arpana?
Mirror must be telling you something about yourself too, or it reflects only others?
I don’t like to put others in the corner so about me I have s clear opinion to be a misfit sannyasin who thinks ‘sannyasin’ is as retro a concept as ‘Bhagwan’!
You really want to get a word game about who mirrors who, Shantam.
Seriously.
Fact is, Shantam, you made a big ego out of your misfitness: “Look at me, how misfit I am!”
I don´t make big ego. I simply show how square people infiltrated Neo-Sannyas and created honey trap around Osho.
Yes, liberal leftist people too are square in their desire to fit with their collective.
Satchit
Do you think Shantam has a bigger ego than
Lokesh?
Is that possible?
Arpana,
The difference is clear:
Lokesh has the ego of an ant, Shantam has the ego of an elephant.
Succinctly expressed, Satchit.
Elephant is my archetype animal.
Does someone think alive Osho was a queen ant?
In my understanding He too comes from the family of big ones.
Arpana, you are also not a donkey but Arabian Horse.
We don’t need to be politically correct to proclaim all animals are one, all humans are one.
MOD:
What about the Dalai Lama and Deepak Chopra then, Shantam?
“MOD:
“What about the Dalai Lama and Deepak Chopra then, Shantam?” ”
Why not a new article where participants talk about their animal archetype? There are animals who like to live away from the sunlight, these in human form live and write undercover!
About the above two names I cannot think of a suitable animal, but it feels, if Osho was a lion or tiger as last animal incarnation, Jaggi Vasudev is a cheetah!
All this imagination is based on Gautam Buddha´s assertion that he was an elephant who sacrificed His life to protect a rabbit sitting under His shadow to feel protected from forest fire.
MOD:
Shantam, you ask, “Why not a new article where participants talk about their animal archetype? There are animals who like to live away from the sunlight, these in human form live and write undercover!”
Sorry, we think this isn’t a good idea as it would quickly almost certainly merely degenerate into another round of name-calling etc., your second sentence above giving an idea of what you’d almost certainly want to make of it!
Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!
You are certainly elephant in the room that SN squares whose squareness you clearly expose would love to ignore, but owing to massive output of droppings splatted regularly on site, it is not possible to ignore! Your self-image is perfectly correct and not at all inflated!
It is indeed heroic that you walk on through the jungle of squawking parrots, rational baboons and cynical dogs with the equanimity of a heavily tranquillised elephant on Prozac, eyes fixed firmly on future, synchronistically trumpeting the name of Trump and never once looking back to notice enormous piles of dung left in wake!
And it is certainly the karma of the rational baboon MOD to have to sift through it all, digging through the productions like a sudra of shit-scraping caste looking through output of great pundit!
Let there be no doubt that you are living embodiment of vision of East meets West! A blend of Zorba and Buddha and a blend of Ganesh and Dumbo!
It is indeed a wonderful idea to consider `archetypes` that you have read about in great vedas such as ‘Linda Goodman`s Sun Signs’!
It is certainly a motley menagerie here at SN!
Parrots in cages squawking “New man! New man!”, running on treadmills and fighting and pecking own image in mirrors whilst managing nothing but to fill up own cages with guano!
Vicious baboons and red-bottomed monkeys prowl ready to attack any newcomers foolish enough to stray into their territory!
Cynical dogs lifting their legs and urinating on the holy shrines of mighty Bhorat and believing that astrology and other great wisdom you offer is simply so much cosmic waste emanating from Uranus!
Yahoo!
Hari Om!
A blend of Ganesh and Dumbo!
That is succinct.
You will love this, Shantam…
https://www.psychologistworld.com/tests/jung-archetype-quiz
Thanks, Arpana,
I will do this test.
Please search some test which finds out whether someone is Enlightened or not.
I am sure many of us who are not courageous enough to open their guru shop will truly be in the league. Women who participate in ‘Miss’ competitions are not the most beautiful women of the world, their main qualification is they showcase their body structure in the competition.
Quite often, will to power decides also who is Enlightened, more than the other.
You obviously know more about enlightenment than I do, Shantam.
Shantam,
Mine are Joker. Fool. Magician. King.
In that order.
Really interesting test, recommendable.
Here are my archetype persona types:
Joker
Light-hearted, sociable and fun to be around.
71.5%
Wise Old Man
Stoic and contemplative – wise but in no hurry.
70.5%
Hero
Strong and persevering with boundless ambition.
70.5%
Innocent Child
Naive but a breath of new life and fresh ideas.
Perfectly correct, Shantambhai,
Your archetype persona types are certainly a window into one of the finest souls ever to be emitted from the bowels of mighty Bhorat!
A light-hearted, sociable and fun to be around Joker!
A wise old stoic and contemplative hero!
An innocent child bringing a breath of new life and fresh ideas!
It is indeed a tragedy that the ignorant western baboons and cynical dogs of SN do not possess the levels of wisdom to recognise these qualities in you!
Yahoo!
Hari Om!
Osho has not left any successor, Buddha also did not, neither Jesus nor Mohammed. These names carry the biggest brand value in the organised religions, without the organisations around them, most probably they would have been ignored by Osho. Hundreds of times one can hear master talking or targeting them.
Dalai Lama is the 14th successor of a long history. His ancestors operated in the name of Buddha but kept themselves always few steps below the Gautama the Buddha.
Without this chain of succession, Dalai lama would have been like us, a boy called George, also like any other British child in the primary school.
Interesting thing to see will be whether Jayesh, the first chairman of sparkling billion dollar property, leaves his successor or simply lets go, trusting Existence.
Same is about Arun and Rajneesh, both enlighteneds in the lineage of Osho are self-made masters in their own right. When the boat comes for the other shore, will they leave behind successor or not?
Who knows, in this successor system, 14th Jayesh, Arun or Rajneesh become worldwide stars in 2569!
Why waste time with such pointless speculation, Shantam? Perhaps you’re secretly envious of these people’s wealth and status, you yourself enjoying none at all, while imagining you deserve far better.
True or false?
Mr. Pacifist, don´t shoot the one who can think out of the box.
Is not Dalai Lama the 14th successor of a certain lineage, yes or no? If yes, it is valid question why Buddha did not choose successor, or why Osho too. These are public figures, one has the right to discuss every motive.
If past is past, irrelevant, then why to talk about them in the first place?
Surely I am envious of a few people, what is wrong in that? I don´t run any conspiracy to undermine their position. Their success is inspiring, though not their so-called complete truth!
Those who think they are beyond such pity feelings prove to be the most untrustworthy people, who dare not to see their own interior.
MOD:
Shantam, what does “beyond such pity feelings” (last paragraph) mean, ie what “pity feelings” are you referring to, please?
SD, I think you speculate too much about Shantam’s reasons. For him, this is just mind-muscle-training because weather is too hot in Europa Park.
WAKE UP, everybody! Shantam has found this highly controversial statement by the Dalai Lama at CBS news. (Would have made this a new thread but technical issues prevented that so it seemed right to simply add it to the current topic).
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dalai-lama-insists-his-female-successor-should-have-an-attractive-face/
Due to tech issues, this discussion continues at the Caravanserai section.
Tests like that are based on questions where you assess your own self.
You are doing the test to find out who you are.
If you don`t know who you are in the first place, which is why you are taking the test to find out, how can the veracity of your answers, on which the outcome rests, be trusted?
Frank,
Tests like that aren’t to find out who you are.
Just to maybe give you something to consider.
You’re taking it as seriously as the people you’re criticising for taking it seriously, methinks. Bit of fun, you know!!!
Archetypes are an interesting notion. Given your interest in tarot imagery, you have to be tuned in to that to a degree.
OSHO: ‘How Can You Be Yourself if You Don’t Know Yourself?’
https://youtu.be/MSdqVpcg3MI
Unlike Arpana, I would never describe Satchit’s above comment as succinct. Juvenile for sure. My six-year-old grandaughter could come away with better than that. Besides, the whole ‘you have a big ego’ number is so Seventies.
The fact that Arpana wants to use Satchit’s comment to somehow try and get at me contains a lesson for us all. It’s not only love that makes people blind.
Let us go into these sutras.
“Besides, the whole ‘you have a big ego’ number is so Seventies.”
Your head is stuck in the 70s, Lokesh. You have a big ego about not having an ego.
Hilarious the way Lokesh tries to give the impression he doesn’t care, that he’s above all this.
Your acolyte Frank wouldn’t have risen to the bait, Lokesh.
Think about that.
MOD:
Post edited (one word!).
Which word????
Dilettante.
You said yesterday, Lokesh: “It´s not only love that makes people blind.”
Fair enough, if sometimes – like yesterday – you drop a gold nugget like this in particular here, it has to be seconded!
As always, I would like you to be included (!) (as all of us regulars (!) or peeping Toms and Marys who ‘just’ peep and read in spy-versions or use their facebook acounts then, to keep the madness going…
Anyway, it was very good to see this nugget fall in slow chat-motion, and thank you for that!
Madhu
P.S:
A hello to your grand-daughter – may she have a very nice day on a very nice island….
Lokesh, you should consider the fact that an ‘ego of an ant’ is almost nothing, very small. Means very easy to drop.
So just one small step to take and you are enlightened!
Satchit, you are talking rubbish.
You say it is a fact that the ego of an ant is very small. Where did you dig up this fact? Fairy Tales for Adults volume 8?
Really, man, do you get a kick out of advertising the fact that you are completely stupid?
Re article.
Satchit, Deepak Chopra isn’t a spiritual leader. He is a pundit.
Pundit? Seems you don’t like him, Lokesh.
Some like him and call him spiritual teacher.
Caption:
Uf ye dinnae storp loookin’ at me wi` tha` daf` grun on ye feyce, ahm gonnae stuck thus on ye, pal!
Or how about, “Git oot eh yer heid, pal.”
I reckon it’s “Listen Choppers, I’m No.3 on the ‘Watkins’ Spiritual 100 List for 2019′, where are you?”
Ok, seems no one else is going to, so I will…
“No kidding, Chop, Buddhist nuns go frickin’ crazy for a long thin one.”
Satchit, Is this the same ‘New Man’ that is always coming soon?
Anubodh, your New Man is waiting inside you.
As long as you choose to be cynical he will not come.
Satchit, are you an example of the ‘New Man’?
Careful, Satchit, Anubodh the devious is settling a trap.
Anubodh, that’s a silly question. Of course Satchit is an example of the new man. That’s why the world is in such a mess.
It is a secret, Anubodh.
Enjoy your ordinariness, and you are
the New man.
“Ordinariness”, Satchit?
You said it was my ‘cynicism’ that was preventing me joining the ‘New Man’ club, now overnight it has become much easier.
If I wait another night, will you be paying me to join?
What is not a secret is that it was your freedom to make a fool of yourself.
Do you think it affects me if you call me a fool?
People are good here in provoking others.
If they are provoked themselves, they behave like a mimosa.
Satchit,
I never see you as making a fool of yourself.
You can be a bit pig-headed, but not a fool in that most negative sense of the word. (Nor wise fool, by the way ✌(-‿-)✌).
Yes, Satchit. I do think it affects you if I call you a fool.
And Satchit, foolishness is in the eyes of the beholder.
Very kind of you, Arpana.
Btw, I like your paintings.
Anubodh,
If you think that it affects me that you call me a fool, then you think wrong. It affects my ego, my self-image – not me.
But anyway, maybe you are right: there are only fools around me here on this Ship of Fools called SN. So the probability is great that I am also fool. Must be the case.
Btw, does it affect you if I call you cynic?
No, Satchit, you calling me a ‘cynic’ does not affect: My ego, my self-image, the silent watcher – I know to be my true self, or my judgment of you.
And here is why…
Definitions from Google:
Cynic: “a person who believes that people are motivated purely by self-interest rather than acting for honourable or unselfish reasons.”
Sceptic: “a person inclined to question or doubt accepted opinions.”
I challenged the notion of a ‘saviour’ – so what does that make me?
A football fan?
The Dalai Lama is a Bradford City fan.
Hanging out with a bunch of burly geezers with shaven heads who are decked out in maroon and yellow gear and chanting mindlessly?
He must feel right at home.
In fact, it`s also well known that the DL loves a full English breakfast and, according to the Akashik records, he is meditating hard for a rebirth in Yorkshire using the specially designed mantra:
Om mani padme hum
Ee ba gum.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-21314212
Anubodh,
I wonder if you also have been a teacher in past life?
So you are not cynical, you are sceptical about the New Man coming, right?
Satchit, surely the only “New Man” (male or female) that anyone needs to be concerned about (if that’s the right phrase) is the one potentially residing in one’s own body?
If that remains ‘still-born’ then “all the rest is propaganda” (as Britsh actor Albert Finney once declared).
That reminds me of one of the sickest jokes Osho came up with.
(Altho` it may have been a symbolical treatise on the reality of the new man, of course)
A man is late for his son’s birth and when he arrives at the hospital the doctor calls him. The doctor picks the babe out of his cot and then suddenly and violently hurls the baby at the ceiling. The kid bounces heavily off the ceiling and when it bangs down hard on the floor the doctor proceeds to viciously stamp both of his feet into the head of the child as he jumps up and down on it.
Paralysed by this astonishing scene, the father mumbles, “But…what are you doing…my baby…”
The doctor then picks the baby up, smiles at the father and says:
“Come on, can`t you take a joke? He was stillborn.”
I take care of hundreds of trees.
Osho’s ‘New Man’ concept was lifted from Mr O and Mr G. It was a good headliner for Osho and the new man eventually turned into Zorba the Buddha. Sounds great, easy to remember, but where is Zorba the Buddha? Maybe I am not hanging out with the right crowd, but I have not met anyone who I would describe as a prototype for the New Man.
I do wish he would hurry up and put in an appearance because the old man is on the point of bringing our species to the point of extinction. On a planetary scale, Gaia now finds itself host to an invasive species hell bent on destroying the very atmosphere it needs to live. How stupid is that? So, New Man, where are you? The hour is getting late.
Lokesh: “but I have not met anyone who I would describe as a prototype for the New Man.”‘
You included, Lokesh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Man_(utopian_concept)
“Our” version is probably mostly the Nietzschean version descended via Mr G, Ouspensky and then Osho.
There`s also the Kevin Ayers version which could have some historical and philosophical significance, too:
Stranger In Blue Suede Shoes
By Kevin Ayers
I walked into this bar
And the man refused;
He said, “We don’t serve strangers
In blue suede shoes;
We don’t give credit, and
We don’t give way
We have to think about what the people might say..
Uh, you know what I mean.”
I said, “Sure, man.”
Oh, he gave me a smile that was sickly and wet,
And I offered him one of my cigarettes.
He took it, afraid that he might appear rude,
Then proceeded to sell me some second-class food.
Nice guy, meet ‘em everywhere.
He said, “My, oh, my, I have suffered too long,
And this cigarette seems to be very strong;
I don’t make the rules
I just get what I take
And I guess every rule was made to break.
You can take what you like, it won’t hurt me
Cause I’m just working for the company.”
From the green cigarette, he took a long drag,
And said, “I think I’ll pick my travelling bag.
I’m tired of cheating, and wasting my head
And filling the boss’s bags with bread.
I want to get out in the sun and rain,
And feel the wind on my skin again;
The world is large, and I’ve got time yet.
And, by the way, thanks for that cigarette”.
“You know, I feel like a New Man
Yes I do, I don’t know why;
I’d just like to say
Thank you very much (indeed)
It’s a beautiful day
I think I’ll be on my way (right away)
I’d just like to say
Thank you very much.
Yes, I’m getting the hell out of here
Yes, I am – bye, bye.
That’s the end of the message
Thank you very much.
Bye bye.
https://youtu.be/Xc9w_7OhmwI
Enjoyed that, thanks, Frank. KA passed me by, I’m afraid, but, thanks to youtube…
This one too: https://youtu.be/7DPqfcN9eSY
Why are you shouting for the New man, Lokesh?
The New man is not somebody else – you are the New man.
So the question is: What can you do that Gaia can survive?
SD, He had his moments, for sure.
You must`ve heard this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7a8mYe-k4Q
Not that I recall…
Btw, interestingly (for me, at least) I see that Kevin Ayers died (and presumably, lived) in Montolieu, a village in sw France, which happens to be where I’ve spent a lot of time over the last 3 or 4 years, as my partner lives there. I’ve asked her to enquire whether he’s remembered, where his place was, whether his family are still there. Quelle synchronicite!
Lucky you. Nice neck o` the woods.
You could ask down at the local “cave”, they would be sure to know him there!
Happy teenage memories at the Orange Sunshine OF Home, for me!
This was a good one…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Kfu5N65zsk
Found it! Will make a point of sitting at ‘his’ table at the cafe, in about a month from now…
http://www.kevinayers.org/places/in-kevins-footsteps-part-2
Nice one!
Sounds like fun….
Hello Satchit,
I’m not sure whether to be amused or disappointed that you have associated someone you now know to be a ‘sceptic’ with having a ‘past life’. But, let’s let that one go.
I am as sceptical about the ‘New Man’ coming as I am about Santa Claus bringing me a, stripped and ready for action, Teal Swan on Christmas morning.
It was you who brought your friend, the ‘NM’, to the SN party, and then found yourself in difficulty because he got drunk and started puking everywhere, and instead of helping to clean up the mess you decided to change tack and shift the onus to the individual.
In which case, for me, a ‘NM’ would have outgrown backward, worthless, mediaeval superstitions that the Dalai Lama represents, and the likes of Deepak Chopra thrive on.
So, I am proud to say: “Yes, I’m a ‘New Man” – can you?
Hi Anubodh,
Teal Swan on Christmas morning? This is not totally impossible. Is she not an alien from Arcturus? For an alien everything is possible.
So you are the New Man? Fine for you.
Reminds me of the Mourinho story, he saying he is “the special one.”
And then came, Klopp, Liverpool trainer, saying “I am the normal one.”
I guess I’m more the normal one.
Satchit,
“Maybe it gives hope to the world that the New Man is coming soon.” These were your words.
And therein lies the problem: As soon as such a man announces himself, a little smarty will get cute and try to score a few cheap points.
I have asked an old friend of mine to take an objective look at SN and to summarise his conclusions….
You missed it, Anubodh.
With this sentence I was just joking.
Do you think I believe because two spiritual fools from the West and the East meet and rub their noses, something will change in the world?
Satchit,
Please don’t blame me for you satisfying Einstein’s equation.
The equation is wrong anyway, Einstein or not, because our conversation has nothing to do with Shantam.
Or should I suspect that you are one of these Loco’ groupies here who think S&S is the same?
MOD:
“S&S” wasn’t clear, Satchit. If that’s correct, what does it refer to, please?
Satchit,
Now that I am a fully-fledged ‘New Man’, I have a responsibility to help those still struggling on the path.
So let me give you a one-liner to help guide you through the darkness:
‘Stop doubling down’.
MOD:
“double down”: See https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/double-down/
Keep your good advices for yourself, Anubodh!
Your “new man blah blah” does not convince me. You need attention from the crowd.
Yes, Satchit, I do enjoy attention from the crowd, and I thank you for giving me all this free publicity.
I enjoy your playful, light-hearted bringing a Being into play, Anand Anubodh – not only ´cause he stuck His tongue out so nicely and in particullar even though we women came to know that He didn´t treat His wife not soooo nicely.
But what to do?
But to accept and have a smile…after all?
A universal Kid -
The Heart Sutra………………………………… :
Moments when eternity penetrates time. Rare….
Madhu
Madhu,
It may interest you to know that Einstein had help with his difficult mathematics from a woman…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmy_Noether
“She not only solved the problem for general relativity, but also determined the conserved quantities for every system of physical laws that possesses some continuous symmetry…Blah, Blah, Blah.”
Einstein´s wife, Anand Anubodh, was a poet. So I didn´t speak of any other levelled ´competitive’ stuff, like you seemingly think of?
I´m off for a meditation retreat today and tomorrow…and so on…
May we all have a beautiful day, hours, minutes and more…of the timeless….
Madhu
Seeing as how it`s well-known that I`m a full-blown sexist, misogynist, woman-torturer around here, I can`t pass up this opportunity:
Q: What is the smartest thing ever to come out of a woman`s mouth?
A: Einstein`s dick.
Frank boy, you are very naughty! But I have to laugh…
Does it mean, then, that Marilyn Monroe was the smartest woman around?
Doesn’t look like it!
Behave and send us another intelligent thread for discussion.
Sorry, Frank, I have to agree with Madhu’s tirade against you @7:10 pm. You have clearly overstepped the invisible line you didn’t know was there.
And as a shining example of a ‘New Man’, I am authorised by myself to serve the following punishment on you:
You are to re-watch, for as long as it takes, every moment, so far, of the ‘Women’s World Cup’, in slow motion.
And may God have mercy on your soul – if there is a God (which there isn’t).
Marilyn and Albert?
I think that`s another joke which I can`t quite remember, something along the lines of someone wishing for the mind of Einstein and the body of Marilyn but ending up with the mind of Marilyn and the body of Einstein….
Swami Anand Anubodh, majority of humanity thought about your Acharya also in the same way: a man of common sense, blah blah!
Or was it different?
SP,
The majority of humanity have never even heard of ‘my Acharya’, so make that silly post 1001.
“We must learn that humanity is one big family. We are all brothers and sisters: physically, mentally and emotionally. But we are still focusing far too much on our differences instead of our commonalities. After all, every one of us is born the same way and dies the same way.” (The DL).
“It happened that Mulla Nasruddin used to have a ferryboat, and when times were not good he would carry passengers from one bank to the other.
One day, a great scholar, a grammarian, a pundit, was crossing in his ferryboat to the other shore. The pundit asked Nasruddin, “Do you know the Koran? Have you learned the scriptures?”
Nasruddin said, “No, no time.”
The scholar said, “Half your life has been wasted.”
Then suddenly there arose a storm and the small boat was far from the shore. At any moment it would sink. Asked Nasruddin, “Schoolmaster, do you know how to swim?”
The man was very afraid, perspiring. He said, “No.”
Said Nasruddin, “Then your WHOLE life has been wasted. I am going!”
Osho
The Empty Boat
Chapter 10: Wholeness
Maybe, someone should whisper in the DL’s ear, that the problem is we don’t all live the same way.
Anand Anubodh,
Reading your yesterday lines (at 4. 57 pm), I feel to respond with one of my own experiences in Munich 1983, when the DL was visiting town and was the guest of a Christian (ev) priest and we all were invited to go to a great meeting in one of the big churches here.
I went there with a very few sannyasin friends, all of us in orange/red and with our malas…
When the DL stood there in His Presence, I´d say, he started His approach to this massive audience by talking long and at great lenghth about the cat of his Munich host and how He had enjoyed that.
You could even feel in the body that wave of relaxation, friendliness and ordinariness (!) which took its space in the whole audience. And even we ´in red´ had been seen and acknowlegded by Him, in the most friendly way imaginable…
So far re your words about the need of some whisperer to ´teach´ Him that we all are so different and don´t live the ´same way´. (Only much later I came to know some of the inner (political) struggles inside Tibetan communities and among religious Leaders).
.
But anyway – I have less than more personal experience re these matters.
Like to add that here – especially – recalling Frank´s comments, those I wouldn´t deny at all about false romanticising and false hagiographic ambitions, which, wherever such happens, it´s mostly fuelled by very specific (personal and/or collectice) spiritual immaturities, which indeed are asking strongly to be investigated with awareness.
Yes – you´re right, we don´t all live the ´same´ way.
But such is as well of value to look at with my Turkish neighbours here next door as well as with any of those I knew as sannyasin friends, in former as in present times. Then and there, there is no guarantee about a friendly, peaceful getting together, besides our efforts to establish that or not.
But the way, to deal with such is quite different, isn´t it?
But as far as the DL is concerned, I wouldn´t say that He needs a whispering counsel in these matters as you propose. He seems to be in a knowing about a collectice climate of big or small gatherings and a capacity how to orchestrate that in the direction of more peace and more ordinariness of practising peace.
In turbulent times.
Madhu
Hello Madhu,
Very interesting post, much appreciated.
Perhaps…whispering can sometimes be more effective than shouting.
Madhu,
The saddest thing about being a perfectionist is that everything is always imperfect and not good enough.
Arpana?
What, please, did you want herewith to pass over to me (at 12.15 pm)?
Besides ripping some contributions off, you didn´t like (?), but didn´t feel to respond to in an understandable way?
The message of Dalai Lama: “We are social animals, we need compassion, we are all a oneness of 7 billion human beings, all individuals, equal brothers and sisters, no matter what religion…” Excellent, plaudits.
“India has made some contribution to humanity. I mean ancient India, not modern India, hahaha…”
Deepak Chopra brings out a paper bag: “We have some gifts for you…” The camera fades out.
Deepak was sitting through at the DL’s right hand silently (which is good), sometimes playing a role of an interviewer, and not a good one. His accent was actually much worse than that of Dalai’s, and his idea of “inflamation” he was propelling, didn’t seem quite clear.
I liked the way the DL laughed, showing his tongue, and his sense of humour.
Frank, if the good news for evolution would probably be meetings then maybe the so-called terrorists declared by all socio-political organisations should meet these religious heads like DL/Pope.
Somehow I think if at all evolution exists it is never-ending!
I think Darwin was really creative in coming up with this evolution principle!
These days I see we tend to call anything that keeps us busy as an evolution!
“It seems the great advantage of people who annoy us is motivation to engage in reflection.” (Auliq Ice).
Perfectly correct, Lokesh. But I assume this little message is for everyone else. In your eyes you are above such considerations.
Back to the thread…
Dalai Lama is the 14th successor. He is not the creator of an institution but the beneficiary, the way boy called George will be the king of Daily Mail readers!
To have wisdom is as common as cooking, one can even sell books like hotcakes, the way Jamie Oliver does.
To create institutions is like creating restaurants. It was in the news, chain of Jamie Oliver restaurants has gone bankrupt!
It reminds me of something else too.
I always thought that ”new man” stuff was Osho playing on our perfectionist trips; especially as he so often said, you are enough as you are; or maybe he was just saying that to me.
┐(‘～`；)┌ ✌
No, Arpana (yesterday at 4.26 pm), that was not said just to you, but for everybody who dared to be present, and to listen, I suggest.
Thanks for bringing that up here. You made a point!
Madhu
Satchit,
Does the English expression ‘tongue in cheek’ translate into German? And if so, to what?
Arps, I don’t think we have similar expression like ‘tongue in cheek’ here.
Maybe being ironic is enough.
Anyway, on this writing medium it is almost impossible to detect if somebody is ironic or serious.
Failed attempts to resolve that…
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Irony_punctuation
“Philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche’s concept of an Übermensch (‘Overman’) was that of a New Man who would be a leader by example to humanity through an existentialist will to power that was vitalist and irrationalist in nature. Nietzsche developed the concept in response to his view of the herd mentality of and inherent nihilism of Christianity, and the void in existential meaning that is realized with the death of God.
The Übermensch emerges as the new meaning of the Earth, a norm-repudiating individual who overcomes himself and is the master in control of his impulses and passions.”
Osho was very optimistic when he declared, “My sannyasins, my people, are the first rays of that new man, of that homo novus.”
Homo novus (or: novus homo, Latin for ‘new man’) was the term in ancient Rome for a man who was the first in his family to serve in the Roman Senate or, more specifically, to be elected as consul.
Did Osho think his sannyasins would one day enter politics?
Did Osho think his sannyasins would one day enter politics? –
Now Iam wondering if New man is/was a dangling carrot for the politically inclined!
“You gotta make way for the Homo Superior”
(David Bowie, ‘Oh, You Pretty Things’, Chapter 1, Verse 3)
“You gotta make way for the Homo Superior”
(David Bowie, ‘Oh, You Pretty Things’, Chapter 1, Verse 3).
Thank you, Frankie, now that brings in a lot more clarity for me!
Lokesh, you said yesterday (at 4.52 pm):
“Osho was very optimistic when he declared, “My sannyasins, my people, are the first rays of that new man, of that homo novus.” ”
I stick to the words of Yogini Bharati here, Lokesh, when she said (June 8 ): “…about to this very moment, I have no idea how he (Osho) managed to generate what I would decribe as a universal vibration of loving compassion.”
In other words, he loved the humans who happened to come and the mandala of Love in their Inner. That´s what happened, and as any group it is quite more than its particles.
Your approach (at least here in that Chat, Lokesh) is not the approach of a Lover like this.
However and sure enough though, you are right when stating quite recently (to put me into place (?)… whatsoever (?) ) that I don´t know much, if anything, about your life.
You also said you feel a kind of mission to keep the quality of the Chat high – I don´t feel that this way.
And wouldn´t deny at all that from the very beginning, I always read your posts with much interest and sometimes with joy.
´Love´ – a Thich Nah Thanie said – is to deeply acknowledge “the other” to EXIST (and not to be a byproduct of somebody else’s existence).
There are quite some sannyasins I knew, who – after getting whatsoever Satori meeeting Punjaji – didn´t come down again in terms of extraordinary-ordinariness. Just talking about the latter and lecturing from a high pedestral sometimes. Painful for those who come for Love and Togetherness and Sharing. Ordinary.
Would have loved to talk to Yogini about that and other stuff, but quite understandable, I guess, she won´t come up again so soon. If ever.
Madhu
Madhu, I said that because of some of the crap people write on SN…they might believe themselves to be Osho lovers etc..but some of the local waiters in my neighbourhood could teach them a few things about love, awareness, meditation etc.
Just because someone had some contact with Osho in one form or another does not automatically make them a better person, or more likely to become a buddha. I can’t hear dummies talking about enlightenment, dropping the ego and so forth without thinking they have little or no idea what they are talking about.
Osho was a wonderful man, which does not mean to say you have to use him like a crutch for the rest of your life, propping oneself up with what he left behind. Remember, wise men leave behind what they can’t take with them.
Call me what you wish, but all that ‘I am an Osho lover’ identity trip makes me cringe. Reminds me of a song by Living Colour, ‘The Cult of Personality’. Osho, quite rightly, laid a lot of emphasis on letting go. Which leaves me wondering why people have such difficulty letting go of Osho.
Currently I have a big clean-out at home. I just dumped 1000 cds in the recycling. I loved some of that music, but what a relief just to let it go. Same goes for Osho. He was recycled long ago, as I will be one day soon also. You too.
What a long, strange trip it’s been.
Aaaah, Lokesh (at 12.31 am), thanks, sigh…
And?
That´s what I meant, and I didn´t speak of an identity of “an Osho Lover”, “this Lover” or “that Lover”.
There´s nothing that has to be dropped then, when loving is happening; it’s a verb, not an identity.
Not a product for rating, which needs public relations.
You´re right, one day I will disappear/die, and you too; and I can assure you that in course of a longer lifetime, dying processing is already happening IN our lifetime; the Tibetans call that a Bardo of life and know to differentiate this processing from the Bardo of final disappearing.
So – you and me and everybody is already practising, whether we know it – or not. Osho had His way to talk about it, other wisdom whisperers like Thich uses other words. We are fortunate to have met some, or are meeting some, aren´t we?
So – the let-go you are speaking of already happens anyway, moment to moment, and I´d say, from the first breath on that we take….
Thanks for responding.
Madhu
Lokesh,
In 1983 I gave away a 1000 vinyl LPs. Two and a half thousand books, the contents of a three bedroom flat, and relocated.
Yes! Liberating is exactly the word; and left so much else behind, was liberated from so much else.
Yup…it’s the clothes cupboard today. Amazing how much junk you accumulate by staying in one place.
In Poona One I went through a couple of years where 10 rupees seemed like a lot of money to me…two rice plates down at the railway station, with maybe enough left for kulfi faluda. Great to have those times to fall back on, because I had almost nothing in the way of material possessions, yet I was a very happy and carefree young man. Great lesson.
“Those were the days, my friend, we thought they’d never end. We’d sing and dance forever and a day.”
I learned to play ‘Those Were The Days’ when I was 40, so I tuned into the lyrics and realised that song was not meant to be sung by a seventeen year-old.
The original was written by a Russian at the turn of the 20th century, who died at 48, and who suffered for years from tuberculosis.
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Boris_Fomin
@ Frank
Yes, Frank, you´re quite right: you didn´t want to (couldn’t?) pass up a further convincing opportunity in your contribution today (at 1:12 pm) to indeed show up here “as a retarded, full-blown sexist, misogynist, women torturer etc.”
There´s just the question how you managed (as a middle aged (?) Briton (?)) to cover this up, mostly done here chat-wise with loads and loads of an elite class intellectual Briton?
And why and what for? Yes, what for?!
What is sick and sickening and poisonous in such a stance like yours today around lunchtime – even a child can realise, not to speak of all of us other contributors here.
Too bad, sorry about it!
Madhu
P.S:
Just watched the news about a right wing German murderer, who had neighbours where he lived, talking of a ´nice citizen´, well known and so-called nice neighbour. Also some pub owner there, where he lived, could probably only say the ´best´. Who knows?
P.P.S:
What about to wake up, Frank? Coming to your senses, I mean!
Madhu
Madhu,
“Life is not a series of problems, it is a network of mysteries.” (Gabriel Marcel)
Madhu,
You call me: “An elite class intellectual Briton”
Thank you.
Recognition at last.