Unconditional Giving – an Osho-Inspired Experiment, by Prem Ritvik

Prem Ritvik explains…

This article/discussion is for beloved Kavita, who invited me on behalf of SN to discuss experiments of Osho I had done. I am sharing this so anyone may be inspired to put anectodes shared by Osho into his or her life or share with us their experience, so we may learn of an opportunity for study.

In this series of experiments, I gave things for no reason and unconditionally.

First experiment:
A friend of mine has many basketball shoes and is a great player. He can juggle a ball with rattling feet and is “ultra cool” in street slang. At one time I asked him his shoe size and planned to give him the best basketball shoes there were. But I did it much later, after he’d forgotten and even the shoe model had been discontinued.

I had to receive my salary in about two days time and thought I should give him the shoes then. But “tomorrow never comes”. So I paid for the shoes, a somewhat hefty amount (but I also obtained a heavy discount since I was an employee) and straightaway gave them to him, saying “I am giving them to you for no reason”.

His logical mind had a breakdown. “What! These are awesome! For no reason! Why? There must be some reason!” He jumped and smiled and screamed. In my observation, logical mind breaks down mostly when someone dies. And at that time one screams, is startled and cries.

He took them home and told his mother the story. His mother, in his words, “gave him bullshit”. The following were my messages:

“Accept the shoes totally so that there is no story to tell about them when you pass them on.
The fact that you received them for no reason will hurt any political mind. Your mom thinks that some time in the future you might get exploited. This is insecurity. Do not mind her. Tell her that all is solved, I am taking them back.
But can you pass them on to someone? For any reason, can you gift them? The ability to receive is equal to the ability to give. Give them away lightly.
Political mind is not a simple mind.”

(The idea of not taking the gift back but to have it passed on was taken in relation to a story shared by Ma Dharm Jyoti, where Osho passes a sweet to her in her book , ‘One Hundred Stories for Ten Thousand Buddhas‘.)

My friend still is one of the simplest people I know. He only had a simple mind. Simple mind is not a political mind! His mother’s mind could not accept! She must have thought I was playing a deep conspiracy with her simple child! He could later find someone to pass the shoes to.

Second experiment:
A friend of mine calls himself a control freak, and is proud of it. I put it to the test. He all of a sudden showed up, coincidentally, during my lunch break hour. As we sat for lunch I congratulated him that his business start-up was about to make money and create some value. He added that the money was little and he needed some investment like 3-4000 rupees. The whole investment he would require was about 16 lakhs. And we continued to have food.

I told him I would invest, so after food we would go to the bank. He nodded and thought I was kidding, but we went and I put 3000 in his hand. He said, “Now?!” I told him, “Tomorrow never comes.”

He asked, “What about the paperwork of the investor, etc.” I told him that this investment on my side was on no terms and he could mail me whatever he likes, plus, I was investing a bare minimum of just 3000.

He said he could take it on his terms. I said, “But I have no terms, you can put whatever you want in!” His reply was, “But those are your terms.”

This is hollow word-play. His controlling, logical mind could not accept unconditional offering, and I could verify his state of being directly

Conclusion:
Through these experiments I could see through the kind of mind a person possessed and its subsequent breakdown.
Studying other minds also contributes to studying my own mind; the experiments are helpful and indicate towards the supreme state of no-mind.

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236 Responses to Unconditional Giving – an Osho-Inspired Experiment, by Prem Ritvik

  1. Lokesh says:

    Pretty pedestrian at best.

    Ritvik says, “In this series of experiments, I gave things for no reason and unconditionally.” Then he says to his friend, “I am giving these shoes to you for no reason.” No Reason? But there was a reason, a pretty obvious one. The reason he gave the shoes was part of an experiment.

    This is really kids’ stuff. That is fine…if you are a kid. Otherwise, it is mundane. Ritvik is just playing around with new ideas, which are not that new. Of course the giver should be thankful, because it helps you feel jacked into the current of life.

    I suppose we all start somewhere and it is quite clear, although well intentioned, Ritvik is just a beginner. The biggest giving that takes part in life has nothing at all to do with money and material things.

    • Arpana says:

      Something really elevating and spiritual about an old man telling a lad he’s inferior.

      Lokesh,
      You came out of the starting box like a greyhound after a fake rabbit. You need a hobby over and above crapping on youngsters.

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        You also, Arpana, come out of the starting box “like a greyhound” and what “fake rabbits” are concerned in a Chat like this, we´d probably would do better with more information about the editing…and the sources.

        What you´re doing, and did (at 1.34 pm), Arpana, is just refuelling your longtime animosity re Lokesh, and nothing more – at least at that side of Sannyas News Caravanserai.

        In your ´updates in that corner, you have your own agenda, same as Frank…
        That´s exhausting…also suffocating…not very inviting to go into the topic as such.

        Madhu

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      When I gave the shoes, I gave them in an instant.

      The model which my friend wanted was discontinued, the time when he wanted it was this far away. I one day just got reminded and acted on that instant. It was not a planned, well laid out, dates confirmed experiment, it was done instantly.

      I speak for putting words into experiment. So “Take a jump, then think” this was done by sending 10 articles directly and then see whatever happens.

      Experiments go on, but they are instantaneous.

      Also, Lokesh, I recently saw a movie, ‘Grave of The Fireflies’. It is a very sensitive movie. A boy searching for food for his sister but no one gives them anything, ultimately they starve to death. It takes, indeed, something invisible to give and that which is visible is a vehicle to that which is invisible.

      I have given these friends what they asked for. It is confusing indeed when I say I gave not out of love, I just gave and I gave the reason for “no reason”. You are right in saying that giving has happened for the reason of no reason. This is at subtlest an effort and has not happened on its own. These were the devices, intentions, and situation I had and instantaneously I have decided to give. The happening is not there, but doing.

      But a pedestrian has to experiment, and move on.

      • Lokesh says:

        Pedestrian…lacking inspiration or excitement; dull.
        That is how I see your writing, Ritvik.

        Age has nothing to do with it. I have met plenty of young people who inspire me perhaps more than elderly people. I am always happy when a young person comes to visit me.

        It’s none of my business, but just for the record, I think you would be better off dropping words like enlightenment and no mind from your vocabulary, because they are just concepts you are fannying about with in your mind and that is not how one reaches such lofty peaks. Perhaps you should try giving a cool pair of trainers to some sexy chick in the ‘hood*. Might be more rewarding in the long term, for a very good reason.

        Try introducing words like “sexy”, “I am hot for her” etc. into your daily language. Funny you should become interested in Osho, who was once known globally as ‘The Sex Guru’, and not without reason. Yet I get the feeling you have never had sex with another human being. You need to start at the bottom and work your way up, not the other way round.

        *hood: slang for ‘neighbourhood’!

        • Prem Ritvik says:

          Lokesh,
          I admire your insight many times, but I must remind you that you yourself have declined to be my living master. I have also come to respect your own understanding about yourself.

          In one story of Chuang Tzu a very wise man says that he cannot teach and forwards the man to a man who can. Since you cannot be my master, and have no living name to recommend, let me ask you what to do and then you tell me. Don’t hurry so much with advice.

          I appreciate your company, stick to dem boyz from da hood.

          As for my articles, it is only up to you how much effort you want to put into what you call dull. I write only what I experience. My writing certainly can only go to depth of my understanding. And I have read writers with deeper meaning, sharper words. So, better exists and you can choose that.

          • Lokesh says:

            Well, Ritvik, if you can swim, you can come and join me in a deep sea swim. I head along the coast most mornings. As the summer progresses the swims become longer. Two kilometres this morning. Most days I am accompanied by my better half and others by a few friends. It is deep, beautiful and blue out there and the sea has no friends, so I treat her with great respect.

            Every day is different. Today I met a curious seagull. He hung out with me for five minutes, approaching within half a metre, He was perfect. Before he flew off he squawked twice. The message of the meeting was that he too loved his life. I watched him fly over the bay and I am certain he did this for the sheer joy of flying.

            If you wish to go deeper, check out my son Tim. He is a very meditative man and he knows how to dive deep. He could teach you a thing or two.

            Here is a link to an info page on his website:
            https://www.trueblueexperiences.com/your-guide

  2. kavita says:

    PR, I so agree with Lokesh’s “The biggest giving that takes part in life has nothing at all to do with money and material things.”

    We tend to take a lot of pride in letting anyone/someone know that we are a ‘giving person’.

    Experiment # 1 – I think your friend’s mother is a well-weathered person!

    Experiment # 2 – PR, you are lucky you have such aware friends!

    Now, finally, this makes a lot of sense when you say, “Studying other minds also contributes to studying my own mind; the experiments are helpful and indicate towards the supreme state of no-mind.”

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      I contradict, Kavita, your rating Prem Ritvik´s “conclusion” as something that makes sense. The lines as “conclusion” he wrote are showing signs of quite shocking emotional, spiritual immaturity.

      To abuse somebody else (a friend) for an “experiment” is nothing to be proud of. Not the least reason to brag about “no-mind” procedures if one behaves like a chess player…or similiar…or taking advantage with what one calls ‘a wicked sense of humour’ (not rare at all, as we know).

      Madhu

      P.S:
      Waiting for Frank…who is already probably sitting in his start hole as well….
      P.P.S:
      About “fake rabbits”, “fake greyhound” to meditate about?
      And in the depths (of investigation) may even be appearing (a hidden) topic of martyrdom if we only grab deeper in the dark…
      Yes – lots of aspects?
      P.P.P.S:
      And yes, the common sense Lokesh offered about “Giving” as such cannot be denied!

      • kavita says:

        Madhu I agree to your contradiction but only about half of it – maybe you are referring to use of “the supreme state of no-mind”. Thank you for pointing it out.

        “To abuse somebody else (a friend) for an “experiment” is nothing to be proud of. Not the least reason to brag about “no-mind” procedures if one behaves like a chess player…or similiar…or taking advantage with what one calls ‘a wicked sense of humour’ (not rare at all, as we know).”

        Now that’s making a mountain out of a molehill! I think “abuse” is a bit too extreme a word for this situation, as the friend was in need of that money.

        About Frank’s response, which did pass my mind too after writing my first post here!

        MOD:
        What “about Frank’s response”, Kavita?!

        KAVITA:
        MOD, a thought about what could be Frank’s take on this did cross my mind.

      • Prem Ritvik says:

        Hello Madhu,
        I agree that “Conclusion” looks very bound and there can be a more open way to present the same.

        Second,
        I have only given to my friends what they at some time expressed wish for. A chess game is played with motive, here I gave without motive, and I could see that it revealed many layers of mind. I have done major mistakes with motive and also repented. These actions were carried out without knowing what would happen.

        Whether I do something or not, it is bound to happen that all characters involved will not be there anymore one day. I gave them what they wanted, without a condition.

        • Prem Ritvik says:

          Also, Madhu, I respect what you have to say as treating people like chess players and harm done to others.

          Because of your comment those who will read this any time in future will not replicate and may be directed to more mature sources – Osho.

          • anand yogi says:

            Perfectly correct, Madhu!

            This vile, abusive, friend-abuser and murderously hateful torturer Ritvik is showing shocking emotional and spiritual immaturity with his wicked sense of humour which is nothing to be proud of!

            Viciously torturing his friends like Swami Hannibal Lecter and maybe even be appearing (a hidden) topic of martyrdom if we only grab deeper in the dark..!

            And, as you say, this revolting, abusive, misogynistic, algorithm hater Frank is probably sitting in his hole also waiting to pounce on peaceful meditators who are minding their own business!

            He has one clear agenda which is to exhaust, suffocate and torture innocent people who sit quietly drinking cup of tea at home and never complain or moan at all!

            Certainly, you will have to meditate very much harder in order to stop his agenda from being successful!

            Yahoo!
            Hari Om!

          • Prem Ritvik says:

            But at the same time, I would suggest this willing to experiment to go on, with a healthy inspiration (reference to Osho) and no use at the end, it can yield some interesting observations.

        • satchit says:

          Certainly you had a motive, Ritvik:
          You wanted to check how the minds of your friends work!

          Giving without reason would be giving – and then finished.

          • anand yogi says:

            Perfectly correct, Satchit!

            Certainly you are now certainly parroting Anand Yogi with your use of the word “certainly” in every post!

            Certainly it is a great day in the history of consciousness that such a communion and osmosis, so typical of master and disciple relationship has taken place between you and Swami Bhorat!

            The good swami is immensely happy that the words of wisdom of mighty Bhorat are beginning flow through you with the fluency of a man with prostate complaints in toilets of bierkeller after heavy session on Alzheimer pilsner!

            Yahoo!
            Prost!

            • satchit says:

              I did not know that you were so over-sensitive, Yogi!

              I knew that you were over-qualified for this group, but now also over-sensitive? This is really heavy and a dramatic conglomerate.

              I suggest you go to the British Council where you live, in Sheffield or Nottingham, and claim copyright for “certainly”. Maybe they can help you!

              Prost and Cheers!

              • anand yogi says:

                Utterly correct, Satchit!

                By remarkable synchronicity, Swami Bhorat`s cousin’s brother lives in nearby Derby, so he will make further enquiries, as it is certainly necessary for any spiritual org involved with ushering in New Man to copyright and trademark a few random words that have been around for centuries in order to act as device for egos of disciples!

                Certainly, Swami sees you as a major tool in the implementation of the new man, and as such he has renamed chief parrot who leads morning meditation at Bungabungalore ashram Scratchit, as reminder!

                It is certainly great honour!

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VwM9vX_1a0

          • Prem Ritvik says:

            I did not want to see into minds, I just gave in an instant what they desired, and continued to observe. There is no motive of using any person.

            “They want this. Let’s give it without a condition. Then observe.”
            This observation, if you want, can call the only motive. Observation after the desires are fulfilled with unconditional manifestations.

  3. Arpana says:

    “One can meditate and can become enlightened in any colour. I am giving you something irrational just to test whether you are ready to go with me.
    I put a mala around your neck just to make a fool of you. People laugh at you — they think you have gone crazy. That’s what I want because if you can go with me, even while I am making you almost mad, then I know that when the real crisis comes, you will have trust. These are crises artificially created around you. They are tremendously significant, with no reason. Their significance is deeper than reason.”

    Osho
    ‘Get Out of Your Own Way’
    Chapter 12: ‘None’

    • shantam prem says:

      If it is so, why the boss took the mala away?

      • kavita says:

        Perhaps, to test whether even after taking off the mala they could supposedly get a deeper significance on their own!

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Yes, Atpana, not unexpected but also ever again surprising: your Artist´s instinct and intelligence – (moving a search machine of a huge Heritage) finding an excerpt of an excerpt of a fabulous Osho quote.

      And thank you for This.

      My own experience re induced ´crises´ by paradoxical interventions is that the waymind works on it is as ineffective as when the mind is trying to solve a KOAN in the mystery of ZEN. Not gettinfg anywhere this way.

      In other words: Life itself is providing us all in abundance with ´crises and paradoxes.
      I don´t know, I confess, what ´my own´ way is/might be…
      feeling deeply inter-dependent, even if I live as a kind of hermit.

      Yet – sometimes – there happen moments of deep contentment, ephemeral as a summer breeze. ( Visiting what I call ´Home´, that´s the best I can express it in words).

      Madhu

      P.S:
      You know what? I never grasped that male buddhies of the Sangha have been/are so much involved with `Enlightenment´ ´Issues´.
      I don´t have a clue….

      • Arpana says:

        ”In other words: Life itself is providing us all in abundance with ´crises and paradoxes.
        I don´t know, I confess, what ´my own´ way is/might be…feeling deeply inter-dependent, even if I live as a kind of hermit.”

        I can relate to that, Madhu.

  4. Lokesh says:

    “Infinitely more important than sharing one’s material wealth is sharing the wealth of ourselves – our time and energy, our passion and commitment, and, above all, our love.” (William E. Simon)

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      Love me then! :D

      P.S.:
      I have once read you mention about a better half. It’s so good to know you are blessed by a mate, which is a different experience! You are a rich man in this way.

      I had a girlfriend, and a long relationship. Both long distance and long time. After 4 years we had same problems as married couples, a loss of interest. This led to break-up as she, being very alive, was in love with another person. I let her go. It was then when I discovered sorrow, met Nietzsche and began finding ways to stop taking birth again, if there are any rebirths.

      I cannot say about relationship, I have found that relations decay over time. But if you are in love, whether in relationship or not, it is so holy. You live a rich life! Love is so beautiful!

      • satchit says:

        Ritvik, you are too young to become a philosopher because of the breakdown of a relationship.

        Distance relations are difficult to live.
        Why not a close relation?

        • Arpana says:

          I’m suprised at you, Satchit. A man of your age thinking the young want advice from anyone.

        • Prem Ritvik says:

          You are very old now, but there is still time, Satchit, to realise that I do not matter.

          I am just a random guy from a random point of earth with a random situation beforehand. And there are 6.7 million minus 1 other random people on earth for you. Why go on worrying about them? Maybe somebody else should have presented something else, and you still could have felt, “Oh, this lad is taking it all too seriously”, but I am saying that it is not about the lad, but about you, who would have worried for some reason for some random outside person. This can go on.

          Look after yourself. I know that you genuinely wish my goodwill, but at the same time, with little insight, you will find there is no guarantee with close relationship either. With insight, it will be easy to see that you do not know. But you can only be certain of yourself, and that is where I want to take your attention.

          • satchit says:

            “Very old”? You are funny, Ritvik.
            Did you not write this famous article here, “Forever Young”?

            And don’t worry, I do also experiments with you. Seems you have a problem answering innocent questions?

            Btw, Mods: You can have your policy, but you miss the flow!

            MOD:
            Yes, we do realise this, Satchit, but, as has just happened, introducing another, unrelated issue, straying radically from and then even taking over from the current topic, doesn’t encourage further thoughts on the original one and is also rather disrespectful to its author.

            So one or two days extra time (or more, if enough posts are coming in) seems the best solution. Besides, currently deleted previous posts will be republished at the new article.

  5. anand yogi says:

    Perfectly correct, Ritvik!

    Whilst all the other baboons on SN waste their lives master-debating, you have been conducting experiments in training programme to become true master in own right!

    Experimenting on dim-witted friends is perfectly correct and certainly time-honoured way of training for ultimate selfless and unconditional task of perpetrating devices on disciples whose minds need to be shredded for their own good in order to usher in New Man!

    Swami Bhorat feels your work has great potential, which reminds him of his own humble, youthful beginnings! He sends his blessings with loving reminder that he also started with a few simple tricks on a few simple minds with trainers and 100 rupee bills, but with practice, it escalated into declaring family dog enlightened, realigning chakras of hot disciples, forcing friends to have sex in heavy-duty binbags and gumboots, telling neighbours that world was going to end tomorrow, threatening to commit sati, putting friends in hotseat to be attacked by psychotic psychopaths masquerading as therapists whilst driving around in drugged haze in limo and other vital, tried and tested means of saving humanity from unconsciousness and disabusing deluded friends of their absurd ideas of how an enlightened one should behave!

    And do not be worried about these aging baboons who come out of their blocks to attack you as quickly as past-it three-legged greyhounds desperately trying to escape the knackers yard by chasing imaginary rabbits which are simply their own projections!

    You are the future! Carry on with your unconditional experiments on your fellow humans and with application and dedication, Bhorat feels that you will certainly find final solution!

    Yahoo!
    Hari Om!

    • Lokesh says:

      Forcing friends to have sex in heavy-duty binbags and gumboots.
      Love the imagery. Had a good chuckle about it.
      I wonder if Ritvik knows what the final solution refers to.

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      Hello Anand Yogi,
      Cannot say if I can reach heights of Swami Bhorat, very happy that he sees the potential.

      As for the experiments, my next one is “response of aqua regia on skull of an unenlightened living man: games of instant enlightenment, Volume 1″.

  6. shantam prem says:

    “We each come by the gifts we have to offer by an infinite series of influences and lucky breaks we can never fully understand. In addition to whatever assets life has nurtured in me, I have a disproportionate amount of money to share. My approach to philanthropy will continue to be thoughtful. It will take time and effort and care. But I won’t wait. And I will keep at it until the safe is empty.” (MacKenzie Bezos)

    P.S:
    It is grace of life that best brains of the West are not influenced by Indian masters or western Satsang Givers!

    There is a kind of organic innocence in their deeds and not cultivated behaviour as one sees in the above article.

  7. shantam prem says:

    Prem Ritvik,
    How many times you have “experimented” with Dynamic or Kundalini meditation?

    • kavita says:

      Ritvik, also ONLY if this Dynamic or Kundalini meditation is experienced ONLY @ OIMR Pune, you will be allowed to write here on SN!

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      Hi Shantam,
      Dynamic Meditation is the only experiment I have missed out on….

  8. shantam prem says:

    To be true, the choice of this boyish article shows, change of guard!
    Osho´s legacy is in the hands of those who know how to scroll words, how to make fonts big, how to create mountains out of mole.

    MOD:
    Rather more interesting though, we feel, than your almost incessant, repetitious (and useless) rants over the last 10 years or more about how bad you think the Pune regime is, Shantam!

    • kavita says:

      Shantam, please, if possible can you elaborate on your post of today, 9 July, 2019 at 11:05 am?

      • shantam prem says:

        Instead of asking others, why not you, Lokesh, create an article based on your version of Osho´s legacy? Be sure, with the good spirit I will make the leftover dots complete.

        Nowadays, it is joy for me to create video posts for my facebook page. It is enough when just 150 people see them and 10,15 leave behind like love clicks and a few comments.

        Most probably I will create one video over this theme, ‘What is Osho´s legacy, in my opinion?’ I am not that intellectually retarded as the people living in His residential compound, who know 100% what is the Legacy of their great one and do their best to offer synthetic, non-controversial version.

        MOD:
        Shantam, this is way off-topic. But when this topic has run its course (in a day or two?) there’ll be a new one on ‘Osho’s Legacy’, based on Lokesh’s recent post where the comments from you and others will be included.

        • Levina says:

          Ahh, Madhu, so lovely to hear your respons, I’ve just come back from sitting in the park, under a tree, watching the ducklings. Then I went to sit in the coffee lounge of the hospital nearby, watching meself and the people sitting around me, all eating their disgustingly tasty unhealthy snacks.

          The weather here is also very, very, very grey, however the birds are singing, and the sound of running water (from the computer) gives a nice illusion that I’m sitting in nature.

  9. Prem Ritvik says:

    There are a few things I would like to clarify with regard to nature of experiments.

    One is, why do them, or any experiment at all? Because you are alive and you can. There is always risk associated with exploration.

    Second, is this is treating people like chess players? No, there is no fight to dominate, only observation on completion of their desire.

    Third is, then I can carry out more dangerous experiments?
    The only danger involved here was breaking a pattern of mind which had not assumed such a thing would happen. Even this I did not know would happen. But it is not dangerous at all. These experiments are simple and have come at my expense. Mind breaks down when something unexpected happens, when somebody dies, or when a dreaming sequence of desired object comes to an end suddenly. Such is the nature, and I have my own first-hand inquiry in this regard, I need not believe.

    I agree that there can be some dangers, but mostly they are on me since I take on the expense, and I find it worthwhile. Every experiment ends belief. Yes, I can carry out more dangerous experiments, but the danger will always be directed towards me. The other will have no harm. At the same time, I am aware of this and knowingly not going to sacrifice the observer of the experiment for the experiment, that would be foolish.

    Fourth, should we experiment?
    You have your liberty. They may be helpful or not, but they arrive with authenticity, which comes at an expense. If you can risk the expense, you can try. At the same time, let me repeat that these experiments are inspired by Osho, and not taken from a murderer. They come from the advice of a Buddha.

    One can go on talking about what has been said, and one can go on criticizing and appreciating that, but it takes blood to drip out of your veins and irrigate the fields of experience. Why save blood? You will die anyway.

    Let’s put to the test, then, what has been said. And maybe some experience will irrigate you post-death when your body will inevitably be bloodless. The risk is worth it and you are independent.

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      I would also cite an important example to support the benefits of what I have said. This is example of none other but the great living enlightened master of our age, Swami Bhorat…

      It was a rainy night when Swami Bhorat, then known simply as Bhorat, met his perfect disciple, Anand Yogi. It was an immediate, one-sided love on Yogi’s side and instant identification of experiment subject on Bhorat’s side. Thereafter, Yogi was subjected to many things which he mentions, but he was never in dangerous enough position, proof of which is his being with us on SN.

      But Bhorat would not have attained enlightenment had he not done all that to Yogi. Swami Bhorat was actually lucky to have him.

      • anand yogi says:

        Beloved Dipstik!
        Again, you are showing levels of intelligence that are only to be expected from a youthful pretender to VIP (Village Idiot Punjab) Shantambhai`s coveted crown!

        The true facts of the matter need to be clarified: Swami Bhorat`s enlightenment was secured many years before meeting Yogi, on that fateful day of spring equinox 1973,when he fell out of rickshaw on Doolali highway and into path of oncoming All-India permit truck!

        Everything that Swami Bhorat has done to me since then has been for my own good and he has never gained anything!

        In the early years of my discipleship, out of pure compassion Swami Bhorat buggered me senseless every morning for 7 years, leaving me paralysed from waist down, thus ushering me through the gateless gate as the clear inheritor of his legless legacy!

        And don`t be worried about this Scratchit fellow, he is simply a device created by Swami Bhorat to show the pitfalls of path!
        “New man, new man! Squawk! Transmission of the lamp, transmission of the lamp.Squawk! The mind,the mind. Squawk! New man,new man! Squawk!”

        It is an important teaching to be aware, beloved Dipstik, not to end up in the same kind of guano-filled cage!

        Yahoo!
        Hari Om!

        • Prem Ritvik says:

          Beloved Anand Yogi,
          Thanks for revealing the story.
          Now I can be in Bhorat’s love more than ever.

    • Arpana says:

      @ Ritvik, who said,
      ”Fourth, should we experiment?”

      I have long thought of my life since I took sannyas as a life of trial and error, which was going on before sannyas, but since that happened has become even more difficult and much easier.

      • shantam prem says:

        “I have long thought of my life since I took sannyas as a life of trial and error, which was going on before sannyas, but since that happened has become even more difficult and much easier.”

        Thanks, Arpana, for writing such a profound wisdom born out of life´s churning on the path of O. In my opinion, this is the best sentence of this whole thread.

      • Prem Ritvik says:

        I cannot understand what you want to convey here, Arpana.

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      You speak at length (10 July 2019 at 7:50 am), Prem Ritvik, about ´your´ liberty and authenticity re your experiments. And you claim that your experiments were inspired by a Buddha, you even spoke literally of a Buddha´s “advice” you got.

      You probably won´t believe it, how many fundamentalists have been, are, on the same line as you; and sannyasins did or do (?) not make an exception of the otherwise so-called spiritual realms.

      As far as the Buddha and Masters who are worth their salt are concerned, they try their best, over and over again, to invite for an investigation, so that their disciples and devotees learn to differentiate between ´Freedom and Licentiousness´.

      Licentiousness, in my experience, comes into play when ´authenticity´ is mixed up with the issue of imitation.
      Imitation and authenticity are far, far apart. And their mixing up is very costly, one can say, even though that might not be recognized so easily.

      So far, to your very last chapters of your response in question and re your words, “the risk is worth it and you are independent” (your last sentence), I´d say you don´t really know what you are talking about here!

      Madhu

      • Arpana says:

        Without exploring, Madhu; along with meditating, which is also exploring, how can anyone know the difference between licentiousness and freedom?

        Although I agree that a lot of people mistake licentiousness for freedom, and then licentiousness is always at the expense of others.

      • Lokesh says:

        Madhu says about Ritvik, “I´d say you don´t really know what you are talking about here!”
        I would say that is a major understatement. The poor guy is really confused. He mistakes the pedestrian for the profound every step of the way. He talks about enlightenment and no mind without having a clue about what those states are about. He gives expensive shoes to his pal, thinking he is doing it for no reason after stating his reason for doing it. The list goes on.

        Madhu, don’t you get the feeling you are wasting your time trying to communicate anything to Ritvik? I certainly do. He’s worse than Shantam on that level.

      • Prem Ritvik says:

        Hello Madhu,
        On my path, really I have made many mistakes, and that of mixing up and imitating is one of them. As soon as I recognised this, I became aware whenever it happened. So it will come to an end.

        As for an imitation in the case of experiments, I wanted to check in the water myself and they are the ways which work with me.

        As far as having an idea or not of No mind or enlightenment is concerned, anybody who has discovered any of them is invited to share it with us in reply to this comment.

        Let’s see, even if anyone has an idea, if it can be of any use.

    • satchit says:

      I have an experiment for you, Ritvik:

      Put a purse with 1000 rupees on the street and watch from a distance what will happen!

  10. Lokesh says:

    Yes, Shantam, no more off-topic. This is very important. We need to pay attention to Ritvik’s social experimentation, heralding the arrival of the no mind new man. A new day is dawning and everyone is yawning. Next time some kid offers you a pair of brand new trainers for no reason look twice, pay attention. Nothing is what it appears to be.

    MOD:
    Perfectly correct, Lokesh.

  11. Arpana says:

    You always strike me as courageous and adventurous, Ritvik, if somewhat uncentred. Admirable the way you put yourself on the line with these lengthy, if rather muddled articles.

    You need to make gibberish meditation, ten minutes a day, followed by ten minutes sitting, part of your daily life.

    • frank says:

      But how old is Ritvik?
      20s?

      I think in your 20s it`s perfectly acceptable to have no clue what you`re on about. In fact,that`s at least half the fun of it all.

      I`m sure I would have a good laugh if I could see some video/tape recording of me at that age and to hear some of the shit that I must have come out with! I mean, I used to believe in guys who looked like Father Xmas having superpowers and stuff!

      Of course, now, like all of us here on SN very centered and balanced senior citizens, I only talk and write absolute sense at all times.

      MOD:
      Ritvik’s 23, Frank.

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        I agree, Frank.
        AND I say in this time as we´re streaming into ´Digital Age´ and are talking here in a virtual Chat (SN/UK), being open to all kinds of varying trolling manoeuvres, which may as well be taken then (by readers) as a further ´inspiration´ or even taken as ´advice’ to go into whatsoever action, the situation (of real life), so to say, is very different from times some 30/40 years ago!

        I´ve been hooked and inner-called to respond the way I did, living in a city here, where some filter bubbles of quite cybercriminal budhies are “experimenting” as streetwork in any obnoxious ways whatsoever.

        Btw, at ANY age, as there happen to ´develop´ areas where juvenile adventurousness (you mentioned) take courses of stupidity and cruelty and in experimental actions. (If you get a chance to ask the perpetrators!/ if ever).

        It´s valuable that Prem Ritvik´s take on what he called “unconditional giving” is appearing here. And it is valuable that Arpana just quite very recently looked for a long quote, and I´m grateful for that one.

        And I know that all ´we´ here, who are real humans and not trolls, are in unique and quite different life situations, challenges and/or whatsoever.

        Madhu

        P.S:
        Love it, when the words of the Master are not taken – just like this – for an egotistical approach, and as long as there are people here who have been present over time, and take the effort to share – and yes, sometimes to find a quote too…to get stuff balanced, so to say….

        Madhu

      • Lokesh says:

        Frank says, “I`m sure I would have a good laugh if I could see some video/tape recording of me in my 20s.”

        I recently watched a docu about the second Glastonbury Festival back in ’72. I was there for two weeks, taking sips from a bottle of water with fifty hits of California Sunshine in it. To be honest, I can’t remember much about those two weeks except that Traffic were brilliant, watching Hendrix’s Rainbow Bridge in a field was out of this world and seeing UFOs was really groovy, man. I was really flying myself and that acid was fantastic. Oh, Yeah, and I was totally crazy.

        I was 24 when I took sannyas in Poona, early ’75, I recently discovered, and I had a few months wherein I went through what was probably a nervous breakdown. I heard Om all the time and some people I looked at had faces running down the sides of their head like a Hindu godhead poster. I went completely nuts for a while, like stark raving mad. I went through hell in a bucket and came out the other side with a stupid grin on my face.

        Arpana thinks Ritvik is courageous and adventurous. Poor Arpana obviously lives a pretty tame and sheltered life if he thinks that.

        In the old days we had the hippy trail and lots of LSD to play with. I am 67 and still do shit that most people would baulk at. Always been a gambler and, in my experience, it’s best not to lose your marbles, because you need them for playing with.

        Nowadays, the kids get a buzz out of how many ‘likes’ they get on Facebook, just like Shantam. Ritvik thinks he’s going out on a limb giving away a pair of trainers. Really, man, that kind of shite is just plain fucking boring!

        • frank says:

          Aye aye. We`ve started early at the Orange Sunshine Old Folks Home today.

        • satyadeva says:

          Lokesh, was that “nervous breakdown” period at the start of your sannyas career due to previous drug-taking, do you think? Or a mixture of that and other things? Or just other things? Or unrelated to anything you knew about?

          • Lokesh says:

            SD, it was a combination of things. I ended up down at Nikash, the river house, going through a kind of schizoid hell bardo. Nikash is a stone used for testing the purity of gold.

            About twenty or so sannyasins lived there, some wonderful people, some nutters like me. I shaved my head from my long hair and as my hair and beard grew back so the Lokesh personna formed. Six months down the twisting track I had sorted myself out, with a lot of help from Bhagwan. I became a serious, non-serious meditator and embarked on lots of adventures, eventually becoming an individual therapist in the ashram. I kinda believed my life would continue along those lines, but life had other plans for me.

            I have always appreciated Ramana’s koan-like statement about one only having two choices in life, whether or not to accept that everything in life is preordained.

        • satchit says:

          Lokesh, people are different.

          Not everybody can be a gambler. Life would be a chaos and even boring if everybody would be a gambler. Who would do normal work?

          But I agree with you: escaping from life is not a good idea. And it is not Osho’s idea either. Avoiding life because a relationship has failed, becoming so-called expert in the other world, is not what Sannyas is.

          Old lions have to speak the truth.

          • anand yogi says:

            Perfectly correct!

            “If you don`t have a girlfriend/boyfriend, you certainly need a philosophy.”

            (Swami Bhorat, ‘Bang your way to God’, Chapter 69)

          • Arpana says:

            Lokesh has been living on the small, conservative island of Ibiza for the last thirty-five years.

            People living in Glasgow during the same period have led more adventurous lives.

            • satyadeva says:

              I think you’ve got the number of years quite a bit wrong there, Arps. And Ibiza, of course, is famous for being, at least in certain areas, a ‘party island’, with a fairly considerable number of radical-minded, artistic and ‘seeker’ types.

              Also, of course, your point depends on how you define ‘adventure’. One person’s ‘adventure’ might be another’s ‘seen that, done that, got the t-shirt’, while another’s seemingly unexciting, unchallenging life might in fact be exactly the opposite. Appearances can be deceptive, as you must surely know…

              Anyway, perhaps Lokesh will, er, enlighten you (now, no need to ‘take the bait’!) further on these matters.

              • Arpana says:

                I’m only treating Lokesh with the same disrespect he treats everyone, apart from yourself and Frank.

                There are other ways to live a life, not just his.

                You never try to defend anyone else but Lokesh, SD. Think about that.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Arps, your previous comment, short on facts, was simply a rather gratuitous put-down, wasn’t it?

                  And while we’re speaking about facts, your last sentence is a false statement. Food for thought?

            • Lokesh says:

              Get it on, bang a gong. Conservative island! That’s a good one. Arpana, you need to read more Vogue. Get out more and drop those dilettantish paintings of yours in the trash, because nobody wants to buy them. Join a healing group and get your chakras realigned. Do more Oms etc. Namaste.
              https://www.vogue.com/article/ibiza-spain-healing-retreats

          • Lokesh says:

            Satchit delivers a stunning revelation…people are different.

            The radical nature of this statement has shocked me to the very core of my being. I think I need a mug of hot chocolate and read my 1969 Beano Annual to bring me back down to earth.

            I think the moderator might take the sensibilities of some of SN readers into consideration. Someone like Shantam or Arpana might have a stroke or a heart attack being informed that people are different. Perhaps parental guidance or age limits should be tagged when such radical ideas are published on this site.

      • Prem Ritvik says:

        Frank,
        cI ask you to see the biography of the man you have accepted Sannyas from. I don’t mean to say that you have a wrong point, but even right point based on age here is wrong.

        It is double standard that sannyasins of a 21 year-old enlightened man tell me I am too young. I can be wrong, maybe for some reason, but don’t give reason of age, I cannot do anything about it.

        MOD:
        “It is to go too back and watch your videos in your 20s” – What do you mean here, please, Ritvik, it’s not clear.

  12. Arpana says:

    “A really rebellious person is one who is neither for society nor against society, who simply lives his life according to his own understanding. Whether it goes against society or it goes with society is not a consideration, it is irrelevant. Sometimes it may go with the society, sometimes it may not go with the society, but that is not the point to be considered. He lives according to his understanding, according to his small light. And I am not saying that he becomes very egoistic about it. No, he is very humble. He knows that his light is very small, but that is all the light that there is. He is not adamant, he’s very humble. He says, ‘I may be wrong, but please allow me to be wrong according to myself.’

    That is the only way to learn. To commit mistakes is the only way to learn. To move according to one’s own understanding is the only way to grow and become mature. If you are always looking at somebody to dictate to you, whether you obey or disobey makes no difference. If you are looking at somebody else to dictate to you, to decide for or against, you will never be able to know what your life is. It has to be lived, and you have to follow your own small light.

    It is not always certain what to do. You are very confused. Let it be so. But find a way out of your confusion. It is very cheap and easy to listen to others because they can hand over dead dog mas to you, they can give you commandments — do this, don’t do that. And they are very certain about their commandments. Certainty should not be sought; understanding should be sought. If you are seeking certainty you will become a victim of some trap or other. Don’t seek certainty, seek understanding. Certainty can be given to you cheap, anybody can give it to you. But in the final analysis you will be a loser. You lost your life just to remain secure and certain, and life is not certain, life is not secure.

    Life is insecurity. Each moment is a move into more and more insecurity. It is a gamble. One never knows what is going to happen. And it is beautiful that one never knows. If it was predictable, life would not be worth living. If everything was as you would like it to be, and everything was certain, you would not be a man at all, you would be a machine. Only for machines is everything secure and certain.

    Man lives in freedom. Freedom needs insecurity and uncertainty. A real man of intelligence is always hesitant because he has no dogma to rely upon, to lean upon. He has to look and respond.
    Lao Tzu says, ‘I am hesitant, and I move alertly in life because I don’t know what is going to happen. And I don’t have.any principle to follow. I have to decide every moment. I never decide beforehand. I have to decide when the moment comes!’

    Then one has to be very responsive. That’s what responsibility is. Responsibility is not an obligation, responsibility is not a duty — it is a capacity to respond. A man who wants to know what life is has to be responsive. That is missing. Centuries of conditioning have made you more like machines. You have lost your manhood, you have bargained for security. You are secure and comfortable and everything has been planned by others. And they have put everything on the map, they have measured everything. This is all absolutely foolish because life cannot be measured, it is immeasurable. And no map is possible because life is in constant flux. Everything goes on changing. Nothing is permanent except change. Says Heraclitus, ‘You cannot step in the same river twice.’

    And the ways of life are very zig-zag. The ways of life are not like the tracks of a railway train. No, it does not run on tracks. And that’s the beauty of it, the glory of it,.the poetry of it, the music of it — that it is always a surprise.
    If you are seeking for security, certainty, your eyes will become closed. And you will be less and less surprised and you will lose the capacity to wonder. Once you lose the capacity to wonder, you have lost religion. Religion is the opening of your wondering heart. Religion is a receptivity for the mysterious that surrounds us.

    Don’t seek security; don’t seek advice on how to live your life. People come to me and they say, ‘Osho, tell us how we should live our life.’ You are not interested in knowing what life is, you are more interested in making a fixed pattern. You are more interested in killing life than in living it. You want a discipline to be imposed on you.

    There are, of course, priests and politicians all over the world who are ready, just sitting waiting for you. Come to them and they are ready to impose their disciplines on you. They enjoy the power that comes through imposing their own ideas upon others.

    I’m not here for that. I am here to help you to become free. And when I say that I am here to help you to become free, I am included. I am to help you to become free of me also. My sannyas is a very paradoxical thing. You surrender to me in order to become free. I accept you and initiate you into.sannyas to help you to become absolutely free of every dogma, of every scripture, of every philosophy — and I am included in it. Sannyas is as paradoxical — it should be — as life itself is. Then it is alive.

    So the first thing is: don’t ask anybody how you should live your life. Life is so precious. Live it. I am not saying that you will not make mistakes, you will. Remember only one thing — don’t make the same mistake again and again. That’s enough. If you can find a new mistake every day, make it. But don’t repeat mistakes, that is foolish. A man who can find new mistakes to make will be growing continuously — that is the only way to learn, that is the only way to come to your own inner light.”

    Osho,
    ‘The Art of Dying’
    Chapter 1, ‘The Art of Dying’

    • swamishanti says:

      That is a beautiful picture, Lokesh, and I have to say, regarding `Orange Sunshine`, one of the most powerful acids on the market, was actually developed by one of our own wee sannyasins, Swami Pravasi, who was well known in the `60′s for producing massive quantities of the purest acid on the market. Timothy Leary reportedly said that Orange Sunshine was the best acid available.

      Now this was powerful shit. Not like the microdots and brown acid that I`ve known people to take several at once at the old Glastonbury festivals, and necked a few myself, those were the days when people used to stand by the roadside openly shouting out their wares and selling `trips` or strawberry double dips, planets etc. which were just pieces of cardboard separated into little squares that had been dipped in a bathtub of lsd mixed with water.

      I once had some Ganesha trips that were pretty good over twenty five years ago but this kind of acid is nothing to what folks were dropping, along with their clothes, in the sixties and seventies, such as Pravasi`s Orange Sunshine.

      That stuff will make you hear the Om and see a thousand heads just like those Indian pictures, man.

      Now Pravasi is dead, the supply of good quality lsd and ecstasy in the United States is said to have decreased.

      But sannyasins have done more than just spread a lot of love, hugs, meditation and parties and enlightenment around the earth. We also have produced several enlightened ones who made some money during their own journeys out of selling their psychedelic toys to trippers the world over.

      Satyam Nadeen mass-produced ecstasy on his mountain lab until he got caught by the feds and spent time in prison, during which time he awakened with some help by a book by Ramesh Balsekar, who Nisargaddata had personally asked to continue his teaching in 1981.

      Bhaskar made a living at one point selling MDMA after it became illegal in the USA. Later he got seriously into meditation, and with a little help with some ketamine, and spending hours in totality, moving inside and spending time with some enlightened sannyasins, became enlightened himself, became known as Maitreya Ishwara and brought out a crazy book.
      Check out his bio in book two:
      https://www.jetzt-tv.net/fileadmin/pdf/Maitreya_Unity06.pdf

      Parmartha used to have access to lots of addresses and I used to get leaflets sent through my door promoting satsangs from Samdarshi, Maitreya and others who were visiting the UK.

      God Diuex was another sannyasin who ended up being busted for smuggling a block of hash into Japan, and spend years meditating on top of a crate in solitary confinement in prison. He also claims enlightenment after being released from prison.

      Yahoo.

      MOD:
      Swamishanti, we’re going to put this up at the next topic, which is on ‘Osho’s Legacy’, as it will fit better there. New article due in a day or two.

      • Lokesh says:

        Hi SS, good post.

        Haven’t done acid myself in any serious doses in yonks. No longer inclined that way. Just could not handle tripping out of my mind for hours on end…did all that in excess and by getting into it I got out of it. Haven’t even smoked a joint in a couple of years and I never drink alcohol, except if I need to sweat out a cold.

        That does not mean I never break on through to the other side anymore. I do, with more benign soul medicine. If you ever happen to be in my neck of the woods let’s hook up and we can enjoy a teddy bear’s picnic together. I am sure you will enjoy it immensely. The sky is not the limit.

        MOD:
        Lokesh, we’ll be transferring Swamishanti’s post to the new topic re ‘Osho’s Legacy’, which should be up in a day or two. So we’ll add this one of yours to that.

  13. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    This is ” Kindergarden*-stuff” the very last few hours.
    Maybe that those involved, too the wrong ´Bang´out of Anand Ygi´s basket and swallowed it ?
    Could well be.
    As far es the very loads of conditional – ´unconditional´-verbal or graphic designed ´givings ( back to the topic´s thread ) are concerned, I just these last few hours imagined the young author of the topic rubbing his hands ?
    Or something similiar… ? Or even feeling ´at home´? Who knows ?

    I do not ( feel at home).

    But amazing as amazingly can be, it´s happening quite often, does it not ? :
    That almost any ´treating a topic´ takes turns like this, either for a small while or even konger , or even devellops so strong a ´wave , that nothing anymore can be done about it.

    And then – a new chance – a new topic – ( mostly).

    Fresh (?) beginning ?

    Madhu

    • Arpana says:

      Its is not our responsibility to make you feel at home, Madhu.
      You don’t feel at home here because of you.

    • Levina says:

      Madhu, S.N:
      Minds, minding about minds, funny minds, busybody minds, spritually correct minds, stupid minds, clever minds, I am cleverer than you minds, feeling inferior minds, pretendingsuperiorbutfeelinginferior minds, knowing it all minds, schoolteachers minds, aggressive minds, blaming minds, proving costwhatcosttoberight minds, nowlet’sgetthisclearonceandforall minds, homely minds, integrated minds, compulsive minds, Iknowbetterthanyouwhatyou’reupto minds, Iamtotallyconfusedminds, mindyouIknowwhatyouareallyabout minds, sarcasticallyfunnyminds, Iamdowntoearthandyouhaven’tgotaclue minds, pfffwhythefuckamIdoingthisminds, and last but not least, Iwanttostopthiss.n.addictionbutIcan’tdoit minds.

      • Arpana says:

        This is more of the same, you know, Levina.
        Embrace your/our imperfection.

        • Levina says:

          Arpana, embracing is just another piece (desire) of mind; I rather stick to facts.

          • anand yogi says:

            Perfectly correct, Levina!

            Yet, Swami Bhorat says:
            “Who is the “I” that “sticks” to the “facts”? The desire to stick to anything is simply another craving of the mind!”

            Certainly, the baboons at Sannyasnews speak only from the mind which is nothing but mind!
            “Minds are as stupid as the people who have them.”
            This is what Swami Bhorat has been saying for yugas!

            It seems you have fallen into a deep synchronicity with Bhorat!
            Therefore, seeing your enormous potential as famous therapist, he extends to you an invitation to ashram in Bungabungalore – we need disciples of your calibre!

            Yahoo!
            Hari Om!

            • Arpana says:

              Here’s a list of questions those of you who are in a permanent hissy fit about Sannyas News might like to answer:

              What have I received from Sannyas News?
              What have I given to Sannyas News?
              What troubles and difficulties have I caused Sannyas News?
              What troubles and difficulties has Sannyas News caused me?

              My answers are:

              1. Ongoing laughter. Freaking out. stimulation. Defensiveness. Annoyance. Goodwill. Food for thought. Respect. Disrespect. Warmth. Regard. Connection. I’ve grown, although I detest that expression.

              2. Constantly put myself on the line as honestly and succinctly as I am capable of doing.

              3. ‘Got on one’ and been reactive.

              4. I get so much more from Sannyas News than I lose. Vastly more.

            • Levina says:

              Frankly, Anand Yogi, Isticktothefactmind agrees with your first paragraph. Very ok stickyfactmind observation indeed!

              2nd paragraph, baboons not so stickymindfact, more of criticalcynicalmind of AY!

              2nd sentence, stickyfactmind says should be definately other way round.

              3rd sentence, Swami Bhorat is fantasy figure not factual figure from wishfulthinkingmind of AY, alias franklyfrank.

              3rd paragraph, 3x very, very much Bhoratfantasymind pretendingtobeverynicebutnotreallymeanit!

              Greetings from stickymatteroffact mind.

      • Arpana says:

        Levina, here’s a thought:

        Why don’t you write an article and list all of Sannyas News faults, everything that is wrong with all the individuals who post here; and then at the end, sum up by telling us how it should be, how we should behave, and why it would be better if the site functioned as you believe it should.

        Madhu, you write one as well.

        In fact, I invite all the lurkers who check on the site every day and disapprove of what goes on here to write articles on the subject.

        • Arpana says:

          A good title would be ‘Sannyas News: The Naughty Years’.

        • Levina says:

          Deal already done, Arpana, without mentioning names!

          • Arpana says:

            Good for you. Name names. Me included. List all our faults.
            Don’t hold back :)

            MOD:
            Including, of course, any of yours you’d care to share, Levina.

            • frank says:

              It`s better to leave them open-ended, so that people can choose the ones that they think fit them. This makes it easier for the writer as they don`t need to be that accurate.

              It`s an old gambit much used by ‘psychics’, astrologers, crystal-gazers, tarot readers, enneagrammers, human designers etc. etc. Barnum statements they are called.

            • Levina says:

              Ok, Arpana, here we go, starting with myself:

              Levina: critical, trying to be spiritually correct, dogmatic, impersonal, staying on the sidelines, feeling superior/inferior, defensive, wanting to be right, resistant, too serious.

              Arpana: dogmatic, critical, one track pony, always barking at the same tree (Lokesh), ad nauseum quoting Osho, wanting to be right, always wanting the last word.

              Frank: cynical, wanting to be top dog, not caring, flaunting ego by being funny at the expense of others and not knowing where to stop, hostile.

              Satya Deva: too much explaining and analyzing, not to the point.

              Lokesh: wanting to be top dog, critical to the point of obliterating the other, cynical, disapproving, always knows best, always wants to be right, dismissive.

              Shantam: boring, repetitive, never giving up, resistant, hostile.

              Madhu: too many lengthy, incomprehensible explanations, too intellectual, feeling a victim, giving too much power to a so-called ‘bad world’.

              Satchit: Too much trying to prove that you are one with Existence and getting very defensive when you think you are attacked about that. Too spiritually correct, always wanting the last word.

              Veet: Trying to be too intellectual, saying simple things in a mumbo-jumbo way.

              Well, this is it for now, there are some more SN contributors but I can’t think of them at the moment. When writing down these traits I can recognize them all in myself, some more than others. The resentment I often feel on SN is that we all have more or less similar mind traits, and we all know that, but then invariably it results into the game of: “your mind is wrong, and mine is right.”

              I guess it would be all right if it was said in that way, but what usually happens is that it results in endlessly cynical, snidey, contemptuous, hostile remarks instead of positive criticism!

              • frank says:

                Levina,
                Obviously I agree with most of what you say. Bang on. Those guys are real jerks.
                Except Frank…you`ve got that well wrong.
                He strikes me as compassiuonate, funny, loving, caring and an all-round great guy.

                I can`t see how you could make such a mistake there.
                I guess it must just be a case of your mind is wrong and mine is right.

                • Levina says:

                  Yezzzz, Frank, the positive trademarks come in the next round, when do you want me to start?

                  However, I don’t have to mention you in it, since you have eleborated already yourself on your positive traits and, to be honest, although I don’t know you from Adam I suspect that indeed you are a loving, compasionate, caring and an all-round extremely funny sense of humour-having nice guy and that your ‘negative’ trademarks are only masking an extremely sensitive soul, completely in tune with Himself!

              • Arpana says:

                Bravo Levina.
                Good for you. (-‿-)✌

                • Arpana says:

                  Levina.
                  I would be interested in your answers to the four questions.

                • Levina says:

                  Well, Arpana, SN mirrors back to me:
                  1) Entertainment, irritation, recognition, laughter, to distinguish what’s real or not, criticism, being touched.

                  2) My experience how I see things, humour, understanding.

                  3) There are interesting and valid exchanges on SN, but the bitching and backstabbing is like a virus that most of the time starts creeping in.

                  4) I don’t know.

                • Levina says:

                  Arpana, 4 should be 3….

                  MOD:
                  Do you mean there should be just 3 questions, not 4, Levina?

                • Arpana says:

                  Thanks, Levina. ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

                  Just a thought: If what you don’t like here had happened at the Ranch, instead of all that displacing out and kicking down, the Ranch would not have collapsed.

                  MOD:
                  Arpana, what do you mean by “displacing out and kicking down”, please?

                  ARPANA:
                  I meant punching.
                  ‘Punching down’ is finding someone weaker, or ‘lower status’ to pick on, rather than taking the risk of giving back, giving as good as you get.

                  ‘Displacing out’ is seeing wrong in everyone else. Us and them.

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      You are a gambler, Lokesh, that´s easy to understand meanwhile.

      But take care, I´d say, not to play that much in certain situations with other human´s marbles !

      They are not your own in this case !

      Madhu

    • Arpana says:

      Oh dear, Satchit. I do believe Lokesh is not entirely sure we are convinced how far above us he is.

      • satchit says:

        He is not really above us, Arpana.

        He is just a tool of Mighty Bhorat to show us our minority complex. But sorry, I have looked this morning and I have found none.

  14. Prem Ritvik says:

    Namaste all the sannyasins who have commented so far. A little note for all:

    Those who have responded with grace I respect.

    Those who have made joke of me I love.

    Those who have not commented love me.

    Now I have to be more exclusive in my responses, but I am here.

    • Levina says:

      Prem Ritvik, I appreciate the fact that you never get defensive, unlike most of us here on S.N!

      • Prem Ritvik says:

        Dear Levina,
        I am ordinary, therefore vulnerable.

        • Prem Ritvik says:

          Many times I see blank stupidity proposed to me but once in a while comes such insight that the wisest I know did not tell me.

          If the insight is greater than me, then I bow. To protect myself will be not to grow. On one moment I have had much gratitude for Lokesh when he pointed out that the quality of my speech was not good. I am handy with all arguments and can defeat (maybe) anyone, but that will be protecting a wall with more and more bricks, I myself will not be able to venture out. Therefore I stay vulnerable.

          I love myself.

          • satyadeva says:

            And Ritvik, from what you’ve just said about ‘bowing’ to a greater insight instead of resisting, defending a fixed position, you’ve also acknowledged that your “self” isn’t necessarily always worth ‘loving’.

            It seems that this is not quite understood when people go on about ‘loving themselves’. Do they love worry, self-made pain, holding on to crippling fears, reacting in rage, ie all those and other areas of unconsciousness?

            How much of this problematic ‘self’ is worth loving anyway?

            Perhaps we need to be crystal clear what we understand by ‘self’ when we say things like, “I love myself”?

            • Prem Ritvik says:

              When I say that, I meant that I love my vulnerability. I love the fact that I can come so clear with my mistakes without protection, I can lead my own individual growth.

              There is another pleasure I know that one feels that, when one can, knowing one is wrong, defend oneself, and go on defending. Then at the end one likes that one could prove the other wrong; but this way, they will not come to see that which they are at that moment clearly enough.

              To change, first, a clear picture has to be seen, and when faults become visible, they can be administered.

              I love myself, because seeing I am not fighting, my choice is more mature than before.

        • Lokesh says:

          Ritvik, reading through the current comments I came to this one.

          Just because someone is ordinary it does not need to be the case that they will be vulnerable as a direct consequence. That is just plain daft to think you are ordinary and therefore humble.

          There are plenty of ordinary, run-of-the-mill people who are definitely not humble.
          I suspect you have came away with this piece of bullshit after reading an Osho book, wherein he tells what an ordinary guy he is and therefore you play copycat and start telling people how ordinary you are and ever so humble. Very inauthentic.

          I sat in front of Osho listening to him blether about what an ordinary guy he was, when there was nothing at all that appeared ordinary about him. Years later, in a televised debate between Osho and Sheela, Sheela challenged Osho to admit he was an ordinary man. He would not admit it. He went on to say that Sheela would one day either commit suicide or go insane. So far, he was wrong on both counts. One thing that nobody can deny is that Sheela had balls. Maybe, tough titties also.

          • shantam prem says:

            Lokesh, three times I have met Sheela during last 18 months. I agree with your last sentence, I cannot imagine a single obedient one facing direct tv debate with Sheela.

            If anyone is ready from the cult around memory of Osho, I am sure she would like to face them any time anywhere.

          • satyadeva says:

            Lokesh, you write, “He went on to say that Sheela would one day either commit suicide or go insane. So far, he was wrong on both counts.”

            Maybe it depends on one’s definition of “insane”, but if mental health is viewed as a multi-faceted continuum rather than a matter of black-and-white categories, from the interviews with her I’ve seen over the last few years, where she’s in complete denial of her considerable share of personal responsibility for the Ranch collapse, she doesn’t exactly appear to be ‘in her right mind’, especially when dealing with Ranch/Osho controversies.

            To me, despite her being able to function ok on other levels, eg running her care home business, that seems to have pushed at least part of her well over the edge, into the ‘unbalanced-veering-towards-insanity’ spectrum.

            • swamishanti says:

              I’d agree. She certainly was already insane and psychopathic during the last few years of the Ranch.

              Perhaps being in prison helped to calm her down a bit.

              But she has never admitted many things or taken any responsibiliy for her actions or her insane plans which almost killed so many people.

              • shantam prem says:

                Swamishanti,
                Show some civil courage to write to CNN to investigate poison given to the master of millions in American prison.

                People like you who believe the story as facts owe the onus too, otherwise it is too much burden on the chest.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Master of millions? That is hype. Osho never had millions of disciples.

                • swamishanti says:

                  I don’t know what you are insinuating here. I have not mentioned whether Osho was poisoned (or irradiated, or both) in prison, or whether I believe that is what happened or not.

                  Sheela and her group were also experimenting with different forms of poison.

                  The fact is I don’t know what happened.

                  But I know that it is certainly a possibility, given the stupid minds of those people and that William Casey, the head of the CIA whilst Osho was in America, was a conservative Catholic who made regular secret visits to the Vatican and was said to be very influenced by Cardinal Ratzinger, the second most powerful man in the Vatican, who is said by some to have been working behind the scenes trying to secure Osho’s expulsion from the U.S.

                  Cardinal Ratzinger once said that “Buddhism was a greater threat to America than Communism”, and called it an “auto-erotic spirituality”. Ratzinger was concerned that ‘the Christian faithful’ would be lured away by Buddhism and other oriental religions and what he termed “Satanic new age cults” in 1982 (widely thought to a reference to Rajneeshpuram).

                  The US also was uncomfortable with the idea of Osho having his commune in Uruguay and interfered there when he was offered permanent residence.

                  They threatened to cancel all future loans to Uruguay as well as demanding that all current loans were paid immiediatly if Osho was allowed to stay in the country.

                  It is known that the US ambassador also said to a Uruguayan head of state that “He is extremely intelligent, an anarchist and very dangerous, because he can change men’s minds. He will destroy your whole society.”

                • anand yogi says:

                  Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!

                  One should certainly follow your very shining moral example of civic responsibility by hanging out with and supporting convicted murderess and serial poisoner of whiteskin that you have political designs against!

                  Most wholesome!

                  Again you prove yourself to be as upright as vital organ of man with multiple organ failure when Viagra has worn off after marathon session of watching Zen porn!

                  Yahoo!

            • shantam prem says:

              In the above post, you are doing injustice to one person by sheltering other players who are equally and even more responsible and have never accepted their blunders. A few of them are still occupying collective property turned pvt. Ltd.

              It is easier to aim at soft targets, to beat with shoes the broken statues.

              • satyadeva says:

                Shantam, you’ve over-reacted (no doubt due to your determination to stand up for Sheela). The purpose of my post was to make a point about Sheela’s mental health, not to consider wider aspects of responsibility for the Ranch collapse.

                (Moreover, note that I said “her considerable share of personal responsibility”, which implies others too were culpable).

              • swamishanti says:

                Not really.

                The “other players” that you despise were pretty much just surrendered disciples who were living in Osho’s household. They were not psychopathic and not keen on murdering anyone who got in their way.

                Whatever you feel about how the management is running the place in Pune and their own power games doesn’t bare any relationship to Sheela’s own madness and abuse of power in Rajneeshpuram.

                Why Osho tolerated the fascist set-up for so long remains unanswered. However, I have heard he was planning to move the commune back to India and had also Laxmi to return to India to find a site.

                Apparently, he had also sent Sheela and a few members of her group back to India in January, 1985, to search for the new commune site but she returned after just three days in Bombay.

                And another point: According to people close to Sheela he had told her to inform Laxmi that Laxmi would be the secretary for the new commune in India, and this was obviously a major problem for Sheela and she put Laxmi on her hit-list of people she wanted out of the way.

                • anand yogi says:

                  Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!

                  Certainly responsibility for blunders must be taken by other players!

                  For example, the blunder of Amrito, standing with his buttocks in a place where innocent psychotic nurse trying to fulfil Osho`s vision by plunging poison syringe at that very moment!

                  Has Amrito ever taken responsibility for this?

                  Have residents of The Dalles ever taken responsibility for visiting salad bar after forcing Sheela to put poison there by their unconsciousness?

                  Has Amrito the whiteskin ever taken responsibility for stealing Shantambhai`s beloved brownskin religion and causing him to lose status as super stud VIP and take reduced status of sadguru in sad bedsit sitting at computer master-debating whilst watching Japanese Zen porn?

                  Not at all!

                  Certainly the fact that Shantambhai has, in his crusade against Amrito, teamed up with the person who has actually been convicted of attempting to murder Amrito and never offered even an apology speaks volumes of the intelligence and integrity of beloved Shantambhai!

                  Yahoo!
                  Hari Om!

            • Lokesh says:

              Yes, SD, I agree. Thing is, when you say, “She’s in complete denial of her considerable share of personal responsibility for the Ranch collapse”, don’t you think the same could be said of Osho? He went from claiming he knew everything that was going on in his commune, to saying he did not know what was going on behind his back on the Ranch.

              • satyadeva says:

                I don’t know, Lokesh. Didn’t his retiring from the scene, as it were, mean that he was no longer in touch with how things were going? He wasn’t aware of his house being bugged, although I wouldn’t expect him to have known about that.

                Perhaps he just let it all unfold, not anticipating just how bad it would get.

                • swamishanti says:

                  I have heard him say somewhere that he did expect that he was bugged at one point, but when she asked Sheela about it she denied it.

                  Also, Vivek I think suspected they were bugged.

                • frank says:

                  Well, the tapes from the bugging will be on general release in 2036 (1986+50). We could get them played over the tannoy at the Orange Sunshine retirement home one rainy Tuesday afternoon.

                  Looking forward to that.

                • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                  I second that, Satyadeva, in particular your very last lines (at 10:07am).

                  It would be another of another and, I guess, numerous topics, to work out a sharing re more understanding about Master-Disciples Relations, and the throbbing organism of a ‘Sangha’
                  (a community) as such, and its evolutionary movements – as well as immaturities and atrocities on this way…

                  What´s difficult for me is quite often, when people who have not been present at all in the times in question post in abundance their imaginations about it.

                  I loved Levina coming up these very last days with her “Isticktothefactmind” contributions, which I enjoyed very much I can say.

                  Madhu

                • Lokesh says:

                  No further comment along these lines. The whole ‘What did Osho know?’ topic has been flogged to death and has now gone stale.

                • swamishanti says:

                  I doubt the tapes will expose much if they are ever released. Just because it was actually Osho, in the first press conference he gave after Sheela had left the Ranch, who first mentioned the tapes, that he had been informed that Sheela had bugged the commune and the rest of his room, and that apparently she had taken some tapes with her to Germany.

                  Therefore he cannot have been concerned about anything exposing him on those tapes.

                • Arpana says:

                  ”Perhaps he just let it all unfold…”

                  Always struck me this is a huge part of Osho’s approach.

                  ”…not anticipating just how bad it would get.”

                  Yep. Looks that way to me.

          • Prem Ritvik says:

            Lokesh, through your comment, I would like to bring Madhu here.

            Madhu, Lokesh is right here, as without intention, I have come to give a statement which is imitation, not an exact copy. Here I am at fault, but now aware of it. While the experiments are of a different nature than this imitation of costume or words, they are experiments of walking for a person who crawls, and like a child we can continue, imitating a person who walks, falling down several times.

            I noticed after the release of ‘Wild Wild Country’, several have taken photos of themselves as Osho and Sheela and put them up on their Instagram accounts. That is imitation, useless. While if someone experiments, another example:

            In one of the talks Osho mentions that people depreciate themselves so you appreciate them. It is easy to agree with depreciation of people; when someone says, “I have a small, poor home”, you agree they have instead of consoling them, then they will immediately hate you for agreement. This reveals complexity.

            This imitation, I call it experiment, which is a more accurate word, is useful, revealing that what has been said is right, from first-hand experience.

            • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

              Hi Prem Ritvik,
              Better not “to bring me here”, as you say, via “Lokesh´s comments.”

              Mind, our all minds are so utterly cunning, aren´t they?

              You know, I´ve been happy, when reading that Anand Anubodh´s personal story of long, lomg ago, reached your heart and made you happy. And (but) then, sure enough – a minute later – in your same response to him, you started again with your mind´s ´number´/diversification: “lab-rats” vs. “wild rats” and so on…

              I don´t take it (anymore) that you are not defensive; but you are your way more invisible in that trait (pattern) than others here.

              And don´t get me wrong – we all (me included) are struggling with it, in particular on a Chat website, which is a virtual play ´unembodied´, so to say.

              What you are sharing about some Instagramm-happenings you came across after crowd-consuming ´Wild Wild (Netflix) Country´ makes me sad, believe it ir not. However, it’s not unimportant, that you shared that. As we all are energetically linked to each other, if we are aware of it – or not.

              Prem Ritvik, why not take the warm approach of an Anand Anubodh – to your heart instead of into your mind? As it may be fairly the only response by a so-called ´elder´ that reached your heart? Most others, including me, may not have been so useful, I suggest.

              It’s amazing how much stirring up the (mind-)waves did happen via your topic contribution, and – as it is – we are all touched by it.

              Outside the ´clinic´- and that´s the beauty of the virtual realms – we all can fly ´over the cuckoo´s nest´ and there is no need at all to be tortured by some ´health-care´, whatsoever.

              Yes, Prem Ritvik, mind is very cunning, but there is a way out!
              (Ever, now and then, and ever – now and then and again and again).

              With Love,

              Madhu

              • frank says:

                Reading your post, Madhu, and how you use the word “mind”, I notice that if you substituted ‘Satan’ or ‘The evil one’ for “mind” you would have classic born-again, fundamentalist Xian literature.

                “Mind/Satan is so cunning.”

                “Mind, all our minds are so utterly cunning, aren´t they?”
                Yes, we are all sinners.

                “Mind/Satan is very cunning, but there is a way out!
                (Ever, now and then, and ever – now and then and again and again).”

                Jesus is the way for ever and ever, alleluia!

                Madhu, do you not consider that such a dualistic/split mind attitude may predispose you to see “evil” everywhere like the fundamentalist Xians do?

                Can you be sure this viewpoint doesn`t just ever widen the rift in the mind without ever solving or resolving it?

                • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                  I spoke, Frank, of taking refuge in the present moment; some call it meditation.

                  The way you like to distort my words in your first chapters is well known for me to view it, over the length of time since I joined the SN/UK Chat here.

                  As far as your two questions at the end are concerned:
                  The first one:
                  Yes, I do consider as to my best capacity – the ´mind’ I’m refering to is dualistic as such.
                  Second one:
                  No, I cannot be sure that a verbally uttered viewpoint doesn´t ever widen the rift in the mind, without ever solving or resolving.

                  Your words here, btw, included bringing (again) Xtian fundamentalists into play.

                  Well – as your being stalked testimony is concerned about such people – I also came to know those or people of other fundamentalist sects as stalkers here and as a target re their stalking!

                  Yes, you´re right, as known meanwhile, your special approach of ‘leading an imagined clinic’ is not that much appreciated by me.

                  Anyway, have a nice day too – as peace(?)-maker – military-style, I´d say.

                  Madhu

                • frank says:

                  Madhu,
                  Thanks for the reply.
                  Enjoy the sunshine.

  15. Jivan Alok says:

    The audience was questioning Mulla Nasrudin who had just spoken on big game hunting in Africa.
    ”Is it true,” asked one, ”that wild beasts in the jungle won’t harm you if you carry a torch?”
    ”THAT ALL DEPENDS,” said Nasrudin ”ON HOW FAST YOU CARRY IT.”

    That’s an EXPERIMENT Mulla was inviting us to make, supposedly having made it himself first.
    Secondly, it’s an ANECDOTE from Osho.

    The two cases mentioned by the author in the article are neither experiments nor anecdotes they were meant to be.
    The first case: “So I paid for the shoes, a somewhat hefty amount…”
    This must be underlined and typed in bold font.
    An experiment to see what the reaction will be? Failed. Anecdote? If you had further exposed what amount of mega bucks it cost, it could have been fun, but you had enjoyed a heavy discount, and that killed the claimed joke in the bud.

    The second case: “I told him that this investment on my side was on no terms”.
    Just before you said that, you had engraved your name in gold on the plate of the most modest men on the silver mountain. The experiment failed, because your friend had declined your hidden terms. Does it sound like an anecdote? Yes. And the joke is on you.

  16. Lokesh says:

    I read Arpana and Levina’s back and forth with each other. I do not feel inclined to write anything along the lines of what I think people on SN’s personal positive and negative traits are. I have already been doing that for some time on SN to a greater and lesser extent, and I think…Well, what do I really think?

    I think Mister G got it right when he said, “If you tell people the truth about themselves, they will either not believe it or resent you for it.” If someone asks me to be brutally honest with them I will not do it, for the very reasons Mister G gives.

    I believe what the sages say, in the sense that the world, including its people, somehow act as a reflection. It just comes down to one’s personal karma. What people say to you, how they act towards you etc. is their karma. How you act, react, respond to them etc. is your karma. Yes, perhaps that might sound simplistic, but if everyone took such a concept to heart the world would be a lot more peaceful place to live in.

    When I first met my wife, she used to freak me out by making it obvious that she didn’t give a shit about what anyone thought about her. She was just completely unconcerned about other people’s opinions of her, because she understood that opinions are like arseholes, everybody has one. I used to be one of those clowns who want everyone to like them. Decades down the line, I have come round to my wife’s perception and embraced it. Who said you can’t learn an old dog new tricks? Woof, woof!

    Parlour games? No thanks. Mind games. Good song.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6G2s6LNQQY

    • Levina says:

      Lokesh, makes me think of a quote of A. de Mello: “I’m an ass, you’re an ass, now let’s get on with living!”

      • satchit says:

        Life is too short to care about what others think of oneself.

        • Arpana says:

          Hannibal Lector doesn’t care what people think.
          Caring/not caring requires a degree of balance.

          • satchit says:

            Hannibal Lector wants that people think of him as a famous criminal.

          • Lokesh says:

            Obviously scraping the bottom of the barrel to come up with a piece of shite like that, Arpana.

            • Arpana says:

              Phew!!!
              Thank God you don’t care about the views of others, Lokesh.

              • satchit says:

                Arpana, what is the difference between a Hannibal Lector and someone who is not attached to others’ opinions?

                The difference is empathy.

                The first one killed his empathy. The second one has his empathy for others but walks on his own way.

            • Arpana says:

              What is the Psychology term for a person who doesn’t care about what others think?

              There’s a number of traits that you’re describing and a number of behaviours that emerge from it. (I’ll assume that you’re asking for yourself for the sake of shorthand: if not, then “you” will be the impersonal “you”).

              After all, those with anti-social disorders or behaviours, folks like narcissists and sociopaths, absolutely don’t care about what others think and they absolutely do unconventional things. That includes emotional sabotage, gaslighting, hurting people for the sake of it, and so forth.

              As others have noted, such a person could also be viewed as an egoist, a solipsist or a self-reliant. It depends on exactly what you mean when you say you don’t care what other people think, which is why I’ve learned to really hate that terminology even if it’s a useful shorthand.

              Do you not care if someone thinks what you did was hurtful, emotionally torturous, deceitful, or harmed them in some deep way? Do you not care if someone thinks that they are in pain because you are at present inflicting physical pain on them? If so, that sounds sociopathic or somewhere on the anti-social trajectory.

              Do you not care if someone thinks that what you’re doing is factually incorrect or based on bad assumptions? If so, you might have an extreme sense of certitude about what you’re doing based on a reasoned assessment, or you might just be grossly ignorant and suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect. Intellectual and personal honesty is tough to develop and not automatic.

              Do you not care if someone thinks that you are violating social mores or rules? If so, you may have a rebellious personality.

              Moreover, you could be somewhere on the autistic spectrum if you tend to like the unconventional or specific and dislike others getting in the way of that, and tend to not really understand others.

              And that’s before we get into the intricacies of social psychology, wherein I have to ask if you really don’t care about others’ thoughts, or if it’s just specific people you don’t care about. Do you ignore authority figures? Do you ignore racial or sexual minorities?

              From a Big Five personality perspective, there are lots of ways one could not care about others. One could be such an extreme extrovert that one basically implicitly views others as a means to satisfy that personal need and trample over others; on the flipside, a person could be such an extreme introvert that one generally disregards social niceties and emotional needs as trivial or petty. One could be so conscientious as to simply not care when others feel that a situation that (at least seems to be) out of whack is in fact tolerable, and the same could apply for someone so easy-going that they don’t care about the conscientious person. Someone who is incredibly open may not care about what others think if they disagree with an open-minded exploration; someone who is incredibly closed may not care what others think if it disagrees with one’s sense of a foundational experience. One could be so agreeable as to care less about what people think and more about the circumstances of co-operation with them, or so competitive as to not care about the other competitors in one’s circumstances. And of course, confidence could lead one to not care about others. Being neurotic seems to be the only pole of each of these continuua that really means you have to care about others’ thoughts.

              Heck, sometimes even borderlines are so deep into their own emotional storm and dynamic that they simply can’t process others’ needs or feelings: it’s just too much signal.

              The question would be why you value unconventional things. Do you like the unconventional because it explores the frontiers of knowledge? Because it itches that primal desire for curiosity? Because they satisfy control, or give you power? Because you like to stick it to self-assured people and busybodies? Because you want to show those at the academy who thought you were mad, mad, mad?

              MOD:
              Who wrote this, Arpana?

            • frank says:

              Herewego herewego herewego…
              It looks like the bovverboys at the OS Retirement home are kicking off again.
              Levina, quick! Get your therapeutic skills down here and give these lads the right diagnosis so we can get them on their correct medications….

              • Arpana says:

                You’re such a card, Frank.
                LMAO (✌゚∀゚)☞

                • Lokesh says:

                  Here’s a wee quote from Osho that you somehow managed to overlook, Arpana:
                  “Whenever you are self-conscious you are simply showing that you are not conscious of the self at all. You don’t know who you are. If you had known, then there would have been no problem — then you are not seeking opinions. Then you are not worried about what others say about you — it is irrelevant!”

                  Which pretty much sums up everything you have to say on the matter. Tell me your honest opinion about me and I’ll do the same for you. Gimme a fuckin’ break, man.

                • Arpana says:

                  Are you serious, Lokesh?
                  You actually don’t know what my opinion of you is; my opinion of you which you don’t care about.
                  You can be so comical sometimes, Lokesh.

                  “Whenever you are self-conscious, Lokesh, you are simply showing that you are not conscious of the self at all. You don’t know who you are. If you had known, then there would have been no problem — then you are not seeking opinions. Then you are not worried about what others say about you — it is irrelevant!”

                • Lokesh says:

                  Thus spoke Hannibal Lector.
                  Arpana, I think you should try and find yourself a girlfriend, or boyfriend if so inclined.

                  Here’s a link that might inspire you and also let you see what it looks like when someone actually knows how to paint:
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_tW8LbTnBY

                • Arpana says:

                  You can be so harsh sometimes, Lokesh.

                  ┐(‘~`;)┌

                • Lokesh says:

                  STALKER: A person who harasses or persecutes someone with unwanted and obsessive attention.

                • shantam prem says:

                  Wise people can be sometimes harsh but also mean and cheap!

                • Arpana says:

                  Your indifference to me, Lokesh, is so undermining.

              • Levina says:

                Nurse Ratchet’s advice is:
                All the troublesome boys go separately in isolation cells, so they have only the walls to spit on!

                • Lokesh says:

                  Nurse Ratchet, I quite understand where you are coming from. Perhaps you do not understand my point of view. I have never been stalked in my life before, until I ran into Arpana. The poor man is obsessed with me. I can’t say a word on SN without him pouncing on it.

                  Few years back he was talking about putting me in my place for some time…totally weird…like some online PC Plod. The lengths he goes to in order to put me down knows no bounds…to the point of cutting off his big nose to spite his face. This has nothing to do with adopting a victim role and everything to do with wanting the guy to bug off…I see him as a bothersome fly.

                  For all his talk of meditation, being a great artist, pulling up Osho quotes etc., he has fallen into a very warped pattern. Being on the receiving end of his bombardment is tiresome. Occasionally I will fire something back, but truth be told I just see this as something that feeds his obsession and I would rather not get into it.

                  You have put in your tuppence worth and therefore I give a response. Arpana is without doubt a stalker…a person who harasses or persecutes someone with unwanted and obsessive attention. I really do not think anyone on SN finds that entertaining, enlightening, funny, inspiring etc.

                  Of course, there will always be a few idiots around who have nothing much to say for themselves and therefore back Arpana up. But really, Levina, you ain’t stupid and must see the man’s warped game. End of story. I am being stalked by Arpana and I would prefer if he directed his creepy attentions elsewhere.

                • frank says:

                  Meditation time!

                • shantam prem says:

                  Comments are getting more interesting and insightful.
                  Finally, Arpana and Lokesh are getting their dues from each other.
                  It happens when one remains obedient to the cult, another drops out; their perceptions clash.

                • frank says:

                  As someone who has actually had the misfortune of being stalked by a stalker in real life (the police`s opinion as well as mine) I think that the idea that Arpana is stalking Lokesh is a little exaggerated.

                  Having said that, Nurse Levina did, in her SN personality appraisals, say this about Arps: “one track pony, always barking at the same tree (Lokesh)”, so there`s something in it.

                  On the other side, sure, Lokesh can come across as a bit dismissive, a guy who`s seen it all before and got a wardrobe full of the t-shirts… There again, I suspect my style isn`t to everyone`s taste, either.

                  It all goes with the territory of fighting about rights of way on the pathless path, I guess.
                  When push comes to shove everybody`s got to be somebody.

                  Well, that`s my attempt at peace-keeping.
                  If that doesn`t work, I`m sending in Nurse Ratchet.

                  Have a nice day!

                • Levina says:

                  Thank you, Lokesh, for permitting me to read your honest, heartrending and seemingly almost hopeless story about persecution by a being who, if I have read it correctly, pesters and stalks you in a virtual way, meaning you do not actually really know the person?

                  Nevertheless, real or not, if you are genuinely affected by it, then I can imagine it must be hell for you!

                  My advice therefore is:

                  1) Don’t react anymore when you feel offended by this virtual person, just sit still, feel the intensity of the emotions and let them disperse.

                  2) If the above seems absolutely beyond your capacity, then instead of watching your emotions you can just let them explode ( in your private quarters of course) and project them on this virtual person.

                  3) If that also is too difficult then you can always continue of course what you so far have been doing, ie to tell the virtual person to fuck off in various ways and try to offend and humiliate him even more as he is offending and humiliating you. But from what I have understood from your story, is this not working to your satisfaction?

                  4) Do not ever visit this site again where you would meet this virtual person; this might be difficult at first since there could be some addictive behaviour in this!

                  These are my suggestions, dear Lokesh; if you have any more questions you can always reach me at:
                  c/o Nurse Ratchet,
                  Virtual Sunshine Home (Home for the debilitated, who, after God knows how many years searching for themselves, and still running in circles, finally can rest their head in the
                  lap of beloved mother Ratchet).

                • Lokesh says:

                  Hi Nurse Ratchet and co.,

                  I don’t feel persecuted by Arpana. I just view him as a creep, who I have told a few times to go bark somewhere else.

                  It’s weird to be on the receiving end of such a persistent bombardment from a person I have no interest in other than to tell him to fuck off. I have no idea why he has such a bug up his ass about me. He just does not seem to be aware of what he is doing. If someone told me I was stalking them, I would check myself out a bit. It is a strange thing to be accused of.

                  Levina, thanks for your advice. Without going into details I just let you know I have had to travel through some very heavy situations in life…as in industrial heavy. You really can’t imagine. So, though I appreciate you taking time to lend advice I really don’t need it.

                  I think Arpana is a bit of a frustrated weirdo and all I am requesting is that he focus his attention elsewhere. It is the easiest thing in the world to leave someone alone.

                  I find the whole scenario really dumb. I feel dumb if I allow myself to go for Arpana’s trip. Fuck knows how he feels. Maybe just one of those strange people who just seek a reaction…even if it is being told to fuck off. Very strange.

                • Arpana says:

                  Thank you for acknowledging my existence again, Lokesh. I am not worthy.

                • frank says:

                  Nurse,

                  The matter of stalking raises interesting concerns vis-a-vis therapy-type ideas and interventions of the type you have attempted.

                  I found that one of the main gambits of the stalker is to use the victim`s attempt to ignore or get rid of the stalker as proof that the victim actually feels what the stalker claims they feel but will not admit.

                  Psychologically, it is an abuse of the basic idea of ‘the shadow’, which posits that everything you dislike in others is really something you don`t like about yourself.

                  It`s a kind of psychological black magic that blanks the possibility of a rational psychological intervention as that will simply be further incorporated and co-opted by the stalker.

                  I would propose some irrational counter-magic:
                  As they are both painters, Arpana and Lokesh should paint an image of their nemesis and themselves together on some paper, using a lot of red and black, screw it up and flush it down the bog or put into the recycling while listening to Nico`s version of ‘The End’.

                • Arpana says:

                  Frank,

                  Put that fcuking petrol back in the garage.

                  (((p(>o<)q))) Boo!

                • satchit says:

                  Things are simple:

                  Already Jesus said:
                  “Love your enemy!”

                  So the one shall say, “I love you, Arpana” and the other, “I love you, Lokesh.”

                • satyadeva says:

                  I trust this is irony, Satchit?

                • Lokesh says:

                  Doctor Frank, the reasons that someone becomes a stalker are numerous. Here is a wee list with some of the psychological traits that can lead to this mental illness. A number of which could possibly fit Arpana’s disorder.

                  These are characteristics of the stalker that are important to understand in order to prescribe the correct medications:

                  Narcissistic behaviours
                  Selfishness
                  History of domestic violence
                  Inability to cope with rejection
                  Obsessive, controlling, and compulsive
                  Impulsivity
                  Suffering from delusions or a severe mental illness that interferes with perception of reality
                  Jealousy
                  Manipulative behaviours
                  Sexually maladaptive behaviours
                  Deceptiveness
                  Socially awkward, uncomfortable, or isolated
                  Has a history of falling in love instantly…(I doubt that one fits)
                  Depends on others for a sense of self-worth
                  Low self-esteem
                  Tempermentalness.

                  I suggest a regime of Prozac and daily shots of Elephant tranquillizer. Keep your stethoscope handy and monitor the patient hourly.

                • Arpana says:

                  Lokesh, you don’t understand what projection means, do you?

                  Narcissistic behaviours
                  Selfishness
                  History of domestic violence
                  Inability to cope with rejection
                  Obsessive, controlling, and compulsive
                  Impulsivity
                  Suffering from delusions or a severe mental illness that interferes with perception of reality
                  Jealousy
                  Manipulative behaviours
                  Sexually maladaptive behaviours
                  Deceptiveness
                  Socially awkward, uncomfortable, or isolated
                  Has a history of falling in love instantly
                  Depends on others for a sense of self-worth
                  Low self-esteem
                  Tempermentalness.

                • satchit says:

                  Irony? Not really, SD.

                  It’s an invitation for online-speed-therapy.

                • satyadeva says:

                  That Christian “love thy enemy” stuff is pure bullshine – probably the original saying was lost in translation and/or misunderstood from the start. I suspect “turn the other cheek” (for your enemy to hit) actually meant ‘let it go, let go your enemy’, don’t hang on to him/her for dear life (ie living death, as it were).

                  I don’t recall whether Osho referred to this in ‘The Mustard Seed’ or ‘Come Follow Me’, but I’ve certainly heard this from somewhere, ie it’s not my original interpretation (believe it or not). Might be from BL, who I do recall having a good go at such impossible-to-practise-hence-guilt-creating Christian nonsense.

                • Arpana says:

                  @ SD, 15 July, 2019 at 7:43 pm

                  “A new monk arrives at the monastery. He is assigned to help the other monks in copying the old texts by hand. He notices, however, that they are copying copies, and not the original books.

                  So, the new monk goes to the head monk to ask him about this. He points out that if there was an error in the first copy, that error would be continued in all of the other copies. The head monk says, “We have been copying from the copies for centuries, but you make a good point, my son.”

                  So, he goes down into the cellar with one of the copies to check it against the original. Hours later, nobody has seen him. So, one of the monks goes downstairs to look for him. He hears sobbing coming from the back of the cellar and finds the old monk leaning over one of the original books crying. He asks what’s wrong.

                  “The word is celebrate not celibate”, says the old monk, with tears in his eyes.”

                • frank says:

                  SD,
                  I think that “turn the other cheek” could well have been an exaggeration, a rhetorical device, a turn of phrase to drive the point home.

                  As always, trouble set in when people started to take things literally.

                • satchit says:

                  SD, maybe “Love thy enemy” is Christian.

                  But the idea behind it is to create a distance to the mind by choosing the opposite.

                  Then you are no more identified with the hostile mind.

                • satyadeva says:

                  However, Satchit, as to love one’s enemy is not only extremely difficult but nigh on impossible, the injunction misses the point which you ascribe to it by tending to engender frustration, guilt and/or self-delusion (imagining you “love” when the truth is you don’t because you can’t).

                  Thus becoming, not free of the mind’s identification with powerful, destructive emotion, but even more entwined in similarly life-sapping inner slime.

                  Are these desirable outcomes? Surely not. It’s just bullshine, as is your comment, frankly.

                • satchit says:

                  You are free to call my comment how you want it, SD.

                  But frankly, I have the feeling that you are still a victim of your Christian heritage.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Well, if so, at least we have that much in common, Satchit.

                  Although I don’t see how that relates to the matter we’re actually discussing, it seems more like a diversion from not being able to respond adequately to the point I’ve made. (Typical politician-type strategy, quintessentially egoic).

                • frank says:

                  SD,
                  All injunctions are similarly problematic.

                  Do good.
                  Love thy neighbour.
                  Love God.
                  Be spontaneous.
                  Act natural.
                  Love your family.
                  etc. etc.

                  Really, you either do or you don`t.
                  Trying to do all these kind of things just splits you and, as you say, introduces guilt and so on.

                  I wouldn`t completely rule out, either, that JC was into some hard-core BDSM scene where loving what thine enemy was dishing out was a major turn-on.
                  That would explain a lot.

                • satchit says:

                  Seems you don’t get it.

                  Because I have fun with an old Christian saying in the context with Loco and Arps, this does not mean that I want to discuss Christianity with you.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Satchit, please don’t obscure the point of this little debate (another common political ploy). We’re not discussing Christianity here, we’re discussing the merits of one particular saying that you originally quoted.

                  You wrote (8.25pm):
                  “SD, maybe “Love thy enemy” is Christian. But the idea behind it is to create a distance to the mind by choosing the opposite. Then you are no more identified with the hostile mind.”

                  This hardly seems like mere “fun with an old Christian saying”, it seems a pretty straightforward point, with no trace of irony. That you now choose to claim you weren’t being ‘serious’ appears suspiciously like trying to slide away from the fact that you have no adequate response, in order to ‘save face’. As I said, just like a tricky, ‘slippery’ politician.

                • satchit says:

                  I see, SD, you want to play your famous “now I have him on the hook game” again with me. I predict: you will fail again!

                  Life is multi-dimensional, so am I.

                  Certainly Arps and Loco are not enemies. So the saying does not fit really. But it was fun to use it, at least for me. It is simply a game they play to give fuel to SN. Some kind of background drum rhythm.

                  And then comes Mr. SD and wants explanations and makes big fuss, talks about being political and all this bullshine.

                  More questions?

                • satyadeva says:

                  “Life is multi-dimensional, so am I.” Laughable really that you seek to rationalise your confused, self-contradictory statements by this sort of self-grandiosity.

                  If your purpose was as you say then I suggest you make more of an effort at clarity. Although I suspect you might be fooling yourself on various levels.

                  Perhaps this is what can happen when a ‘normally’ self-satisfied, complacent-seeming chap comes under pressure and crosses the fine line between that level of mediocrity and self-important delusion.

                  As for Arpana and Lokesh being “enemies”, it depends how you define ‘enemy’. Here, of course, it’s not ‘life and death’ (“it’s more important than that”*) but if you think they’re not strongly antagonistic towards each other then I suggest you misjudge the situation, and rather badly at that. This has been going on for years; re-read their recent exchanges, or ask them yourself (or, as you’re a “multi-dimensional” sort of bloke, do both).

                  *Former Liverpool FC manager Bill Shankly’s classic words about football!

                • satchit says:

                  I like it that you found something to laugh about me, SD.

                  How says Swami Bhorat?
                  “If it is not something to laugh about, then it is not Tao.”

                  From: ‘The Book of 1001 Laughters’.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Very gooooodddd, Satchit…

                  Now, for the next stage in your journey, you do this…

                  Watch the video carefully…then you do similar in Germany – with one more thing…While greeting the people on the main road, repeat the mantra “Aussehen!* Ich bin multi-dimensional” – loudly, ok? Just transmit this multi-dimensional flame…And everyone will just laugh!

                  Remember, every day, for 6 hours, start very early. Just be a fool – you will do well!

                  Ok, Satchit? Very goooooddd!

                  *”Aussehen!” German for “Look!”

                  https://uplift.tv/2019/mr-happy-man/?utm_source=UPLIFT&utm_campaign=7db0dd3d0f-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_07_15_11_38&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_19c1fc07c2-7db0dd3d0f-108473969

                • satchit says:

                  At least you tried to be funny, SD.

                  Okay for the beginning. The teacher says: “befriedigend”*

                  *”befriedigend”: “satisfactory”

                • satyadeva says:

                  Well, praise indeed from the multi-dimensional-just-like-Life-itself master…So a humble vielen dank* to you, Satchit!

                  *”vielen dank” – thanks very much.

                • anand yogi says:

                  Perfectly correct, Satchit!

                  You seem to have fallen into a deep synchronicity with the master and now channelling one-liners through the ether from the spirit of Bhorat himself!

                  By an extraordinary synchronicity, Bhorat has been at the dentist recently, where he had a vision of three old people travelling from town to town, as in ancient Chinese times, igniting the flame of bliss, joy and hilarity amongst the masses wherever they go!

                  Through consultations with Dalai Lama, and with my putting in a good word for you, it has been divined that Satchit, Madhu and Satya Deva are the ones to fulfil!

                  First, it will be necessary to come to Bungabunga Ashram to do Bhorat`s new intensive:
                  ‘The Avatar Avalaugh Training!’ to make sure that you are all fully certified.

                  Then, Bhorat`s vision and legless legacy can certainly spread like a multi-dimensional wildfire in a firework factory!

                  Yahoo!
                  Hari Om!

  17. swami anand anubodh says:

    Prem Ritvik,

    I’ll take up your invitation to share what you interestingly refer to as “experiments of Osho”, as I was in Poona 1 when I was a few years younger than you, at a time when access to Osho was relatively routine.

    There was one occasion I had forgotten until reading your suggestion, where Osho told me specifically to do the up-and-coming meditation camp “totally”. I remember being agreeable to the idea at the time, and then doubts creeping in when I thought about the implications of “totally”.

    I am not an early morning person, and used to spend many hours sitting till about 4am in one or other of the cafes down by the railway station, under horrible fluorescent strip lights, drinking Nescafe. So I decided to give the early morning meditations part of the camp a total miss, and instead attended the total number of much later morning discourses.

    In the afternoons, I have a total loss of memory as to what I did, or did not do. It’s only the evening meditations I remember making an effort with.

    So, I was filled with genuine trepidation at what the consequences would be for me for having disobeyed ‘The Master’ as I entered the post-camp Darshan. Much to my relief there were no consequences as Bhagwan seemed happy enough with me. (On reflection, I would be flattering myself if I believed he had even remembered what he had told me to do).

    What I did gain was an insight into the ‘your own inner voice’ vs. ‘someone else’s’. And in this case the ‘else’ was someone who mattered.

    Maybe, Ritvik, you have gone as far as you can by using your friends and others as ‘lab rats’ and need to get out and find yourself a living ‘Master’ to test yourself against.

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      Swami Anand Anubodh,
      Your experience, which is deeply personal, makes me happy.

      On lab rats are done experiments where they are used. I used not friends but situation, in which they and their desire was part. Situations cannot be lab rats as they are untamed and consisting of freedom, especially when they are uncreated by me.

      This situation is a wild rat. I am an organ of freewill inside body of this wild rat, which spontaneously decides to give what other organs desire to whole extent and then observe this wild rat.

    • Levina says:

      Frank,

      Excellent suggestion! As an aftermath they could both do the “judge your neighbour worksheet” from Byron Katie. Lokesh could use the belief: Arpana is a creep, a weirdo, he is not aware of what he is doing, he should leave me alone!

      For Arpana the belief could be: Lokesh is arrogant, always knows best. I feel he doesn’t see me. Through constantly condemning him and making him ridiculous I will force him to acknowledge me!

      • Arpana says:

        For Levina, the belief could be:
        Frank is just so cool. If I put Arpana and that other bod down, Frank willthink I’m really cool too.

        • frank says:

          Arpana,
          Don`t talk nonsense. You are completely off-beam here.
          Just because Levina has been camping outside my house, chanting anti-Arpana and anti-Lokesh slogans and refusing to move until I put her in charge of my UK fan club is totally irrelevant.

          • Levina says:

            Frank, OMG, the beliefs some people have…can only stomach the funny ones these days….

        • Levina says:

          Arpana, could be, but it isn’t! What do you mean by “bod”?

      • Lokesh says:

        Is Byron Katie some kind of chocolate cake?

        • Levina says:

          No, Lokesh, it isn’t. Apparently you don’t know her? What exactly do you mean by your comment?

          • Lokesh says:

            Levina, it was a joke.

            I know who Byron Katie is. I have an old Poona One friend who is very much into her.

            Apart from having the same surname I do not feel I share anything much in common with her. I am sure she does good work and maybe helps people. Can’t knock that.

            Anyway, Levina, do you have some investment in Byron Katie?

            • Levina says:

              Lokesh, Katie is a chocolate cake, I’m a chocolate cake, you’re a chocolate cake, now let’s get on with It!

              • Lokesh says:

                Levina, to be honest, I never eat chocolate cake…too much sugar.

                Madhu, what about all that guff you wrote about me swallowing “stuff”? Giving me the silent treatment, or what? Or maybe you are entering the sleepy time with a cup of camomile tea.

                • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                  Lokesh,
                  “all that guff” I wrote? Why do you bother then?

                  No – “no silent treatment, or what?”

                  And no, I´m not entering sleeping times with a cup of camomile tea; but I´m thinking these times of a ´lavender one´as a good rest at night is far from my reach for a very long time.

                  And as far as a controlled or uncontrolled use/experience with psychedelic substances goes, I don´t know a thing.

                  Sometimes there’s happening just a strong impression about the different phases of the sannyas sangha , especially in Pune I, and that I´ve been blissfully unaware at that time about the differences re our ´filter bubbles´ (where we came from), as one would call it today.

                  Dancing the Sufi Dances or attending the famous Music Group – not knowing a ´thing´, feeling united, one can say.

                  Same about some group-settings – even the shocking ones – like former encounter…I cherish these memories too.

                  Won´t be able (not willing now) to be a sparring partner about what you like to
                  trigger by your response (at 2:05 pm).

                  Madhu

                • Lokesh says:

                  Madhu, you ask, “Why do you bother then?”
                  That is a pretty dumb question that shows a lack of imagination.

                  Let me help you out. This is a public blog. Were I to write something totally untrue about you, like, “Madhu and her constant intake of barbiturates and alcohol”, don’t tell me you would not find that a bit weird and probably have something to say in response to such a ridiculous accusation. Or how about, “here is a recent photo of Madhu at the SN convention”?

        • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

          Yes, Lokesh, could be like cacao 70% upwards.
          Bitter-sweet!

          No cake, taste the purest you can afford and get, and you may be surprised.
          After a while or so…

          Or not (not that costly stuff after all as some of the other stuff you swallow sporadically to get into ‘the other world’, which does not exist).

          Madhu

          • Lokesh says:

            “The other stuff you swallow sporadically to get into ‘the other world’, which does not exist.”
            Ehm…Sorry, Madhu, you’ve lost me there. I don’t swallow any “stuff” sporadically. You are mistaken in believing that other worlds do not exist. I can assure you they do. You will probably have to wait until you physically die to discover that what I am saying is true.

            Funny what this brings up for me. When I was a young lad, I was very otherworldly. Space cowboy. Then Bhagwan named me ‘The Lord of This World’. It was like a koan I had to work on for some years. By the time I got around to asking about the meaning of my name it was forbidden to ask such things. I’ve never been much for the rules, so I thought, fuck it, I’m going to ask him anyway.

            Bhagwan did not seem to mind in the slightest. He said to me, “Lokesh, the world gives you your body.” I nodded, very aware of my physical presence. He continued, “The world gives you your mind.” I nodded again, seeing my mind as the incredible instrument it is. Then he concluded, “And God gives you consciousness.” And in that moment I entered an exalted state I cannot describe.

            • shantam prem says:

              “…and then people read about this and got exalted state indescribable!”

              Placebos work too but there must be the right atmosphere and right doctor to create that effect.

              • Lokesh says:

                Is that you talking from experience, Shantam?

                I mean to say, your first ‘darshan’ with Osho was in an Indian airport. I have seen film footage of the occasion. That was not a darshan. It was a chaotic mess. Definitely not the right atmosphere, so it most have been the right doctor, you know the one they call Doctor Feelgood.

                • shantam prem says:

                  This string has got too much stuff. Being a rational spiritualist, I would surely like to create an article about Psychology of Euphoria in Master/Disciples circles or in Concerts!

                  MOD:
                  Go ahead then, Shantam, join the queue!

                  (P.S: I reckon some might dispute that self-definition..).

                • Lokesh says:

                  Quite so, MOD.

                  Rational means based on or in accordance with reason or logic.
                  A spiritualist is a person who believes that the spirits of the dead can communicate with living people.

                  As Guru Spock would say, does not compute.

        • frank says:

          Nurse Levina,
          Those kind of techniques are too logical. Way too superficial. Just words. We need to speak to the ‘unconscious’ or ‘big you’ in a language it understands.
          Action. Symbolic action.

          I would say the kind of technique that I would prescribe here would be to go down to Leicester Square or some similar very busy place on a Saturday night, wearing only a dinner jacket, bow-tie and no trousers, busking with an out-of-tune ukulele with a couple of broken strings, with “Stalker” or “Stalker victim” emblazoned on the forehead with lipstick, singing “I am what I am”.

          And for all the nay-sayers, doubters, negos, sceptic critics, scoffers and quitters out there…I say…don`t knock it till you`ve tried it.

          • Levina says:

            Yeah, Frank, great advice; did you actually try it yourself? If I were younger and living in London I would certainly want to experiment it out, but alas, the days of promoting the ‘I am’ in Its most ridiculous, humiliating, vulnerable but at the same time painfully funny disguise are over!

            The disguise I use nowadays is ‘therapeutic referee’, I specialise in cases when two seemingly opposite parties have the belief that in order to be loved they have to constantly bark, stalk each other and tear each other’s clothes. Thank God, we are only talking about clothes here.

            • frank says:

              Levina,
              Try it myself?
              Don`t be daft.
              I`m the therapist and guru here.
              So I tell others what to do, I don`t do it myself!

              • frank says:

                Plus…
                “Advice is what we give when we become too old to set a bad example.”
                Francois De La Rochefoucault

                Have you ever read his ‘Maxims’?

                • Levina says:

                  Frank Offhisrockers, was he an ancestor of yours? If so, I can well imagine that you turned out to be how you turned out to be!

                  No, I didn’t read Maxims, but I’m on first names with Maxim’s (Maxima) the queen here! She’s toppie-top! But that’s because of the extremely high heels she’s wearing.

                • Arpana says:

                  “Advice is what we give when we become too old to set a bad example.”
                  (Francois De La Rochefoucault)

                  I love this. Hilariously true.
                  Kudos for posting.

              • satchit says:

                I would not be so certain in this case, Frankie.

                Maybe you are the slave.
                Have you ever thought about the possibility that she is a dominatrix?

              • Levina says:

                Thanx for your stark honesty, Frank, not many therapissing and guruburu bods would admit to that!

                • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                  Very much seconded, Levina (at 10:45 am) – and I adress it to you because, besides Frank (9:44 am), it´s you who also really lightened up my day so far (when reading).

                  At my (geo-)place here, climate-wise, it feels like ‘Schafskälte’ – the English translation I found is ‘the spell of June 11.

                  Re the current topic, I feel that we might have been crossing the zenith so far?

                  Unending, never-endings journeys though…of story-tellers…

                  Nobody knows, and it’s nice to feel such a bit or much more ´light-hearted´.

                  Good for health.

                  Madhu

                • shantam prem says:

                  There is an element of honesty in the world of anonymous, faceless writers! Good to know the facts of virtual world.

  18. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    @ Lokesh ( at 9:13 am)

    Lokesh, there is no need to ´help me out´ about the devastating effects of public rumours* so far, and there is no need with the graphic design you added with the rolling pin as a warning/blackmailing or whatsoever.

    Sure enough, you´re sometimes looking for a target for your performance as raging bull – and you imagined to have found one.

    What I wrote about myself you didn´t and don´t relate to at all!
    Nothing can be done about it, more so as your aggressive, creative stances are mostly not moderated at all over the time, I´m experiencing, writing here. But often even appeciated by the MODs and others who like to rage too…

    You know, Lokesh, as in real life being harassed for a very long time by gang stalking perpetrators, I really loved to reaf Frank´s diversifications about the utter misuse of ‘Shadow-Work’ as a psychic black magic and as I would say, an obnoxious weapon to de-personalise a human being, and the unconciously raging stuff also for groups – is just one in its following. Sometimes even a collective riot!

    And I know that, Lokesh, having been targeted that way since quite an unbearable long time.

    So – I really loved to read what Frank did contribute recently re that aspect.
    And can only recommend it also to others.
    And there may be certainly – also for you – something in it, I suggest

    That´s where I´ve been looking inside mostly these days, amongst trying my best to get my everyday life together, so to say.

    As this kind of Black Magic, one can say, is part of so many so-called chats, also of our SN/UK one, I´d say.

    Madhu!