RADHA is said to be a tantric teacher. We are not sure what this means.
However this link shows her answering a question about Osho’s physical presence which SN thought worthy.
Radha says in replying to a question about experiencing Osho as an ordinary man and describing this:
I wish I could, and I have tried. But even in the times when I have been lucky enough to be close to him physically, I never felt – he was always talking about and also said, ‘I am an ordinary man’, I know it is true – I just cannot bring myself to describe… because whenever I went close to him all I could feel was an ocean of light and love.
Any time I have been close and touched him, I could not even fathom the depth of the void that I felt: an enormous emptiness in a body, laughter, very funny, and very dangerous – you would never know what was coming next. That’s the only thing that I can tell you.
“RADHA is said to be a tantric teacher. We are not sure what this means.”
Please, ask “Bodhisattva” Sartia. Maybe she can explain in better English what this profession means.
Is it something to do with Mahassattva mahabanana badassattva Eddie Griffin`s sutra that Prem mentioned:
“There is somebody trying to stick a dick in you, and they need some money.”?
But seriously, I don`t want to sound cynical or nothing, but when someone bigs up a story from their spiritual journey whilst simultaneously flogging their latest workshop I do tend to wonder whether I am reading, for example, a straightforward account of an independent traveller who has visited and spent time on a certain beach, or a marketing brochure promoting a newly built hotel/holiday complex on that beach!
As I remember, Radha was every year for few months in Pune and continued like diehard regulars during few years of Resort too.
This was really a USP of Osho that so many graceful people, mostly women, from around the world made Pune, India their home even when master was no more but his work was happening as if he was there.
As per my understanding, for long Osho dropped traditional master/disciple concept; he was more busy to create a system which shines like a star among the cults and religions.
Osho was a system developer, the way Mark Zuckerberg or Jeff Bezos or Steve Jobs are in their chosen field. To revolutionise an industry is a mammoth task, to bring newness in religions is even rare.
“Osho was a system developer, the way Mark Zuckerberg or Jeff Bezos or Steve Jobs are in their chosen field. To revolutionise an industry is a mammoth task, to bring newness in religions is even rare.”
Thus Spoke Shantamustra!
“RADHA is said to be a tantric teacher. We are not sure what this means.”
I wonder why many of Osho sannyasins, of all people, have a of sort of stigma about Tantra. To me, tantra means simply connecting deeply with one’s partner/loved ones, not just physically but also towards their spiritual growth.
The House of the Divine has many windows.
People move around the house and look into the inner.
From one window they sense ordinariness; from another, emptiness; from another, love and light; from another playfulness.
“To me, tantra means simply connecting deeply with one’s partner/loved ones, not just physically but also towards their spiritual growth.”
This is a sincere interpretation of Tantra. I am sure Kavita did not hire services of any teacher to learn this.
“I did not need to hire any teacher but I have no problem if someone needs to hire one.” “Miyaa biwi raazi toh kya kare kaazi?”
If a woman & man want to marry then the priest has no say!
Truth is most ordinary – always available – before the first and after the last star.
My understanding is the word ‘tantra’ just means method, as in ‘Vigyan Bhairav Tantra: Index of 112 Meditation techniques’.
Etymology:
Tantra (Sanskrit: तन्त्र) literally means ‘loom, warp, weave’. The connotation of the word tantra to mean an esoteric practice or religious ritualism is a colonial era European invention…The word appears in the hymns of the Rigveda such as in 10.71, with the meaning of ‘warp (weaving)’.
Warp and weft of existence, interdependence, one whole.
Full wiki:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantra
“Warp and weft” – does it make a net from Varuna’s gold? Meditation maybe is the loom. Perhaps it ordinarily carries truth and holds its companions together.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_and_weft
I was not a member of the elite physically around Osho. But I was around and about him, and don’t consider him to have been an ‘ordinary’ man, in the normal way.
There was a field of light and quite forceful around him, if you were open to it, or attuned to it, which I wasn’t always. But it was there.
Not met it myself elsewhere in a long life. But not to say it isn’t there in others.
Tantra has a very mixed reputation in London, people like Aleister Crowley claimed to be a tantric master and quite a number of women ended up dead, suicided, or in mental hospitals because of him.
I would myself consider the various forms of yoga much safer paths.
“But I was around and about him, and don’t consider him to have been an ‘ordinary’ man, in the normal way.”
No, it was not in the normal way. In the normal way ‘ordinary’ is related to comparison. But there is also an ordinariness in tune with oneness.
“The other is hell”! Yoga certainly brings oneness.
Lonely people can be benefited by tantra though!
Married Indian couples living in the West can be benefited by going to naturists lakes though!
Shantam, Naturists lakes & nudist beaches are not new to me. But I do not enjoy looking at or being around ugly old bodies without clothes. Even I can’t stand old, fat, smelling nude women in gym’s locker rooms.
“The other is hell”!
Kusum Ma, you married or single after realising the other is hell?
An ordinary man?
I remember one time in darshan, while Osho was waiting for the next devotee to make their way forward, seeing him having a very sneaky, crafty peek at his watch.
In that moment he had a very ordinary interest.
(I cannot recall ever seeing him glowing like an empty light bulb).
Anubodh, do you think enlightened ones are not human? Are enlightened ones beyond the laws of society? Are enlightened ones without any dreams? Enlightened ones don’t enjoy worldly pleasures??
According to Osho, he did not dream:
Question – Does an Enlightened Person ever dream? Can you tell us something about the quality and nature of an Enlightened Person’s sleep?
Osho – “No, an enlightened person cannot dream. And if you like dreams very much, never become enlightened. Beware! Dreaming is part of sleep. The first thing is that for dreaming to happen you have to move into sleep. For ordinary dreams you have to move into sleep. In sleep you become unconscious. When you are unconscious, dreams can happen. They happen only in your unconsciousness.”
“An enlightened person is conscious even while asleep. He cannot become unconscious. Even if you give him an anaesthetic – chloroform or something like that – only his periphery goes to sleep. He remains conscious; his consciousness cannot be disturbed. Krishna says in the Gita that while everyone is asleep the yogi is awake. It is not that yogis are not going to sleep in the night; they also sleep, but their sleep has a different quality. Only their bodies sleep, and then their sleep is beautiful. It is a rest.”
SS,
Remember Bong? The innocent guy who you mistakenly announced to the whole world was a jailbird in the recent ‘Philanthropy in Sannyas’ topic?
He claims enlightenment, he said he realised it at the age of 34 after 30 years of meditation, so anyone who has been meditating since the age of four must be worth listening to.
So come on, Bong, step forward and settle this burning question once and for all:
Do you dream at night or are you a total blank?
And, Kusum, everyone is always human, Osho ended up behind bars (best Bong answers that one) and Osho had a taste for a Rolls Royce.
Just finished watching ‘I Leave You My Dream’.
So that settles all the kwieries en kwestjuns about laughing gas, except for the one if it is ordinary or not….
I remember Osho speaking about how someone had got to see J. Krishnamurti but been put off by Krishnamurti reading a detective novel. This was seen to be too `ordinary` for that person, who had gone to Bhagwan.
Apparently, Hugh Milne states in his book he ran into Deeksha, after her departure from the Ranch, and she had been to see J. Krishnamurti, who had called Osho a criminal, and put him down for calling himself Bhagwan’.
Many people thought that J. Krishnamurti was purer than Osho but they they were oblivious to the fact that Krishnamurti was actually banging the wife of his secretary, Rosalind Rajagopal. And had asked her to have abortions.
http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/200806/tt00112.html
What an unconceivable rubbish comes here (chat-viral) together re the ´Tantra-Issue´.
And I hope that the songs of Tilopa that Osho shared about in 1975, February, that the essence of suchness will be saved by Arpana and given to people who take care of wisdom-speaking.
Madhu
Thanks, Madhu.
As you will know, Tilopa was a mendicant and a monk. When on the road, for a while, he is said to have worked in a brothel as a bouncer for his living. That doesn’t make him a tantra fellow, does it?
Does sound like quite a guy, but as he lived something like a thousand years ago who can say?
I don’t know what Osho said about him.
Yes, you don´t know, Parmartha. The lecture sharing about the song of Mahamudra though, about Tilopa, His disciples Naropa and Milarepa then (as a kind of lineage), is edited and available, if you want to know.
And yes, some thousand years ago stuff – and yes – in its essence contemporary too.
The source, wherefrom you picked up Tilopa´s ´working´ in a brothel, and why that found your special interest, I don´t know, and you didn´t mention the source.
I need to add (for you in particular), that I´ve never ever belonged to any ´elite´ ever; neither in our Sangha, nor at any other place.
But ever so often in deep awe about the Master´s Sharing.
Madhu
Thanks, Madhu, when I have time I will have a look at your reference. My source reference for Tilopa’s life is the wikipedia one.
As Tilopa lived both the life of a mendicant and a monk, he would have become acquainted with tantric practices, if he did, whilst on the road, and his seeming familiarity with brothels might be indicative.
I am not atatcking Tilopa, but I want to encourage scepticism towards tantra. I would say that only really very mature people could adopt it as a path, whether male or female, and clearly it has had its abusers.
Actually, Osho makes everything look/sound so beautiful that even the worst seems interesting; that is the beauty of such people.
Parmartha, you say, “I would say that only really very mature people could adopt it as a path, whether male or female, and clearly it has had its abusers.”
Somehow, I think if one is mature enough one will not abuse/get abused, but generally speaking, mostly all paths have abusers, though the ratios may differ.
Indian guys were good in calling themselves “tantra teacher by nature” to seduce Western girls to their beds.
Anyway, it was and still is a spiritual circus. Morality is not always the right tool to handle with life.
Satchit,
“Morality is not always the right tool to handle with life. Handle my tool and you will handle eternal life.”
Is that one of the chat-up lines that these DIY tantrics use?
Or is it one of yours?
Any good?
Howdy, Frankie,
No, it’s the teaching of a sex guru.
Many of the girls I have seen around such Indian sannyasins who call themselves Tantra Masters are not that innocent, they are open towards such guys.
I had not heard the word Tantra before coming to Poona commune. But when such Tantra Masters would approach me openly I could very nicely tell them to piss off! They have kept their distance from then.
Anyway, I heard that in the Pune Resort they have an orientation programme to warn the Western travellers. Maybe all Western countries should give such orientations to their travelling youngsters.
‘Tantra’ is a very familiar word for all Indians as lots of Indians use these so-called tantrics for some of their spiritual rituals. Western women have different attitude towards sex as they are not looking for husbands but sex.
” ‘Tantra’ is a very familiar word for all Indians as lots of Indians use these so-called tantrics for some of their spiritual rituals.”
So according to this statement, I am not an Indian – well, I accept that!
Btw, it’s like saying all Indians are Bharatnatyam dancers!
People abuse people,
words don`t abuse people!
Words are tools that can be used for anything people want to use them for.
The feeding ground for abuse is the major disparity in power between therapist/therapee, teacher/pupil, master/slave/disciple, adult/child.
The words they use are incidental.
Tantra, yoga, Catholicism, occultism, whatever.
Anyone who bangs on about themselves in terms of metaphysical constructions with a view to shagging you or getting your money is suspect, whatever the details of the ‘philosophy’.
It`s not rocket surgery.
Good post Faceless frank
As most of thought provoking and intelligent posts get ignored so i must show Thumbs Up.
Today´s post of lokesh too has thumbs up quality as well as post of morally superior lady!
Yes, Kavita, it´s as you say it: Abuse happens; so simply said as that, and for this time´s lifetime it may be part of what we call ´the life´s -pilgrimage´ then.
The myths, also those about Tilopa or tantric paths, or the myth about Milarepa, who was said to have indulged in ´black magic´ before coming to his senses: all these myths pointing to the moon (the unconscious) aren’t they?
And it’s not that I can´t understand what Parmartha points at when he is kind of warning…
We are living in a time where quite very sexually distorted, unerotic, loveless, insensitive manners are happening and executed and made a business market out of.
That´s paining Me.
To sell ´tantra´ as a ´better fuck-method´ is insulting and sometimes really diminishing and distorting a cultural heritage of something much bigger on the plane of the consciousness-growths-issues in my eyes.
And sure enough, this path in its old meaning is not a path for everyone, as Parmartha is stating it. (He spoke about that too.)
Otherwise, nowadays in Information Age, most ancient ´paths´ or schools are mixing and merging as the ´traditions too´ where such is rooted in.
Quite a challenge that is…
With Love and gratitude to the wisdom-whisperers of ALL Times – reminding us of our roots and wings.
Such a beautiful sky, when I look out of the window today….
Madhu
We are living in a time where quite very sexually distorted, unerotic, loveless, insensitive manners are happening and executed and made a business market out of. – Madhu , I guess if one has even a glimpse of a little life which those wisdom whisperers whishper , I wouldn’t be too bothered !
There is some fear from Indians towards those Hindu ascetics who perform tantric rituals in cremation grounds but people also respect those babas and go to them for help.
I remember being in a small Indian village and being told of a potter, who no-one in the village would speak to. Apparently, he used to go and sit in the cremation ground on the full-moon nights and meditate the whole night.
“Black magic” does not necessarily have negative connotations in those circles, it is seen as a power that can be used to create problems for others or to help, heal or perform miracles. Indians fear those tantric sadhus as they are thought to have to be able to use black magic to harm others or create problems for them, but they also go to them to ask for help and healing.
Obviously, anyone who has any type of power can abuse it, even if they think they are trying to help people.
Those sadhus who are trying to use powers to harm others are obviously the less mature type.
The more mature tantrics would refrain from trying to scare others with the threat of black magic and only use any black magic or power to help others or perform miracles such as producing infinite chapatis, impossible foods out of pots to feed the masses.
I think Tantra as a word has different connotations to different people & so it is the most misunderstood word.
As I understood from Osho’s discourses, maybe he is talking about transparent, colourless magic!
‘Black Magic’ is a western, Christian term that has been absorbed in the last couple of centuries by Indians as part of the Western influence.
It was Madame Blavatsky, who founded the Theosophical Society, who first coined the term ‘Left-hand Path’ and ‘Right-hand Path’.
She associated ‘Left-hand Path’ with tantrics who were said to be breaking Hindu societal taboos by having sexual intercourse in rituals, drinking alcohol and eating meat, living in cremation grounds and generally questioning taboos.
Somehow, I have not been interested in these colourful kinds of magic, so not inclined towards it.
Perhaps everything that exists in these realms is human creation.
For me, it’s better to spend my time on things I am inclined towards; these days I like to live in my own clean world, as what I am not interested is in a way garbage for me!
Thank you for sharing, Madhu.
I just feel that whatever the real meaning of Tantra and the real practice of it, it can be dangerous in a way other paths are not. That is because even if we posit that there is a genuine practice of tantra, it can be misused very easily.
I can say from experience I have met people who ‘speak’ of tantra, but it is really some kind of chat-line, and a deceptive one, to bring others to their beds.
“I can say from experience I have met people who ‘speak’ of tantra, but it is really some kind of chat-line, and a deceptive one, to bring others to their beds.”
Now, this is really dangerous, a path that brings others to their beds. Maybe the path should be forbidden?
Some people sleep in their bed with even their cat or dog…Loneliness has all the solutions!
You are right. Most tantrics just want to give a spiritual edge to their sex life.
From my experience, Love is beyond sex, and sometimes you need to give sex a break in order to really flower in love. Ultimately, as love flowers, any interest in sex disappears.
Tantra easily takes you down into the mud of sexual obsession – and you can spiritualise it with beautiful words…but it still is too centred on the genitals.
Love has nothing to do with sex or genitals.
But if you repress sex, you will never experience Love. If you fall into the mud of sex obsession, you will never experience Love.
Tantra is good for beginners, but it has to be balanced with long periods of celibacy, a time to give sex a break so you can flower in Love.
Usually, Tantra attracts sex-obsessed people who want to spiritualise their sex drive.
Parmartha,
I remember Ma Anand Margot being involved in a group I did in the 70s (with Poonam), she’s a player on the tantra scene – although I don’t know if she is ‘purest’ or ‘home brew’.
Google her name for links to wikip & youtube.
Recently I have been considering the group leader/therapist scene that grew out of Osho’s ideas. I listened to a few seconds of Radha’s vid. All good, although I’m not really interested in such things. I’d rather read ‘Trainspotting’. One thing I’ve noticed is that a lot off these sannyasin therapists waffle on about what an ocean of love it was being around Osho. It’s true to a certain extent. Other things are also true.
Although Osho described himself as an ordinary man, that certainly wasn’t all that he was. When Sheela asked Osho to confess on a live TV debate that he was just an ordinary man he refused to do so. Really, when you think about it, on a public level at least, there was little about Osho that could be described as ordinary. He was a very special man.
That said, just because someone spent years around Osho, especially in the early days, that does not make them special, although certain people in the therapy group scene behave as if it does.
The heart of the matter is that one person may spend decades with a master and basically remain the same person they’ve always been, while another person can meet a master for a few minutes and their life is transformed in a supremely positive way. What it all depends on is a person’s commitment to the pursuit of truth.
There is something that appears hypocritical to me about praising Osho as a way of drawing attention to oneself, although I’m not saying that is what Radha is doing, constantly speaking about their past experiences on one hand, and talking about being here now on the other.
Bottom line…think for yourself and question all authorities, because if you do not you leave yourself open to being duped.
What I see is that there are many like Radha who probably don’t have / find anything worthwhile to do & this the best they can with their life .
Take myself , I come here to discuss matters which many of my friends think is waste of time , but I enjoy it , otherwise I wouldn’t be here .
I guess each one of us has found a way of whiling away ones time to its best use !
Time is money!
Thanks for the post, Lokesh. Involved some work and considerations done carefully.
Tantra master = organises meditation groups centered on sex.
Even in the times when I have been lucky enough to be close to him physically = I was close to Osho and you weren’t. Now pay me money for my wisdom.
Osho was an ocean of light and love = I am so profound, I only saw discarnate love and light when I looked at Osho.
Radha, pixels on a screen (movie), seen on another screen (computer) utters certain thoughts, that are seen and interpreted by another screen (thoughts, feelings) of this body-mind. Then these thoughts say “Is that all?? This is boring, I wanted to seduce you into really believing what Radha says, and instigate and remember all the wonderful experiences and feelings you had in the past when Osho was alive, I want to seduce you in believing that the past was much, much better than this moment. This moment is not for me, hardly noticeable, I cannot move in it, I disappear…Oh no, thanks God, I haven’t disappeared, I exist in pixels on a screen, and hopefully other thoughts are going to see me and are going to type on this screen lots of thoughts about these thoughts,” says thought…”What a thoughty thought”, says thought, “I could not have thought that, I could have such a thought about this thought, thought about this thought, thought about this thought, thought about this….”