Osho and Guru Nanak (Founder of Sikhism)

 

Osho comments on the Sikh prayer of Japuji
When the Japuji was conceived, Nanak was thirty years, six months and fifteen days old.The Japuji was his first proclamation after the union with the beloved. The Japuji are the very first words uttered by Nanak after self-realization; therefore they hold a very special place in the sayings of Nanak. They are the latest news brought back from the kingdom of heaven.
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The incident preceding the birth of the Japuji needs to be understood also. Nanak sat on the bank of the river in total darkness with his friend and follower, Mardana. Suddenly, without saying a word, he removed his clothes and walked into the river. Mardana called after him, “Where are you going? The night is so dark and cold!” Nanak went further and further; he plunged into the depths of the river. Mardana waited, thinking he would be out soon, but Nanak did not return.Mardana waited for five minutes; when ten minutes had passed he became anxious. Where could he be? There was no sign of him. Mardana began to run along the shore calling to him, “Where are you? Answer me! Where are you?” He felt he heard a voice saying, “Be patient, be patient!” but there was no sign of Nanak.Mardana ran back to the village and woke up everyone. It was the middle of the night, but a crowd collected at the riverside because everyone in the village loved Nanak. They all had some sense, a glimpse, of what Nanak was going to be. They had felt the fragrance of his presence, just as the bud gives off its fragrance before the flower has opened. All the village wept. They ran back and forth the whole length of the river bank but to no avail.

Three days passed. By now it was certain that Nanak had drowned. The people imagined that his body must have been carried away by the swift current and perhaps eaten by wild animals. The village was drowned in sorrow. Though everyone thought him dead, on the third night Nanak appeared from the river. The first words he spoke became the Japuji.

So goes the story — and a story means that which is true and yet not true. It is true because it gives the essential truth; it is false in the sense that it is only symbolic. And it is evident that the more profound the subject matter, the greater the need for symbols.

When Nanak disappeared in the river, the story goes that he stood before the gate of God. He experienced God. There before his eyes stood the beloved he pined for, for whom he sang night and day. He who had become the thirst of his every heartbeat stood revealed before Nanak! All his desires were fulfilled. Then God spoke to him, “Now go back and give unto others what I have given unto you.” The Japuji is Nanak’s first offering after he returned from God.

Now, this is a story; what it symbolizes must be understood. First, unless you lose yourself completely, until you die, you cannot hope to meet God. Whether you lose yourself in a river or on a mountaintop is of little consequence; but you must die. Your annihilation becomes his being. As long as you are, he cannot be. You are the obstacle, the wall that separates you. This is the symbolic meaning of drowning in the river.

You too will have to lose yourself; you too will have to drown. Death is only completed after three days, because the ego does not give up easily. The three days in Nanak’s story represent the time required for his ego to dissolve completely. Since the people could only see the ego and not the soul, they thought Nanak was dead.

Whenever a person becomes a sannyasin and sets out on the quest for God, the family members understand and give him up for dead. Now he is no longer the same person; the old links are broken, the past is no more, and the new has dawned. Between the old and the new is a vast gap; hence this symbol of three days before Nanak’s reappearance.

The one who is lost invariably returns, but he returns as new. He who treads the path most certainly returns. While he was on the path he was thirsty, but when he returns he is a benefactor; he has left a beggar, he returns a king. Whoever follows the path carries his begging bowl; when he comes back he possesses infinite treasures.

The Japuji is the first gift from Nanak to the world.

To appear before God, to attain the beloved, are purely symbolic terms and not to be taken literally. There is no God sitting somewhere on high before whom you appear. But to speak of it, how else can it be expressed? When the ego is eradicated, when you disappear, whatever is before your eyes is God himself. God is not a person — God is an energy beyond form.

To stand before this formless energy means to see Him wherever you look, whatever you see. When the eyes open, everything is He. It only requires that you should cease to be and that your eyes be opened. Ego is like the mote in your eye; the minute it is removed, God stands revealed before you. And no sooner does God manifest, than you also become God, because there is nothing besides Him.

Nanak returned, but the Nanak who returned was also God Himself. Then each word uttered became so invaluable as to be beyond price, each word equal to the words of the Vedas.
OSHO                 Translation From the Hindi

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82 Responses to Osho and Guru Nanak (Founder of Sikhism)

  1. Parmartha says:

    I never understood why Sikhs, even when they became sannyasins…well, some continued with their tribal religion and all that hair and turbans.

    And all those swords. What on earth is that about? Where is the peace and love in that?

    Sannyasins who wore the mala were a mixed bunch. Many sort of retained and then returned to their mainstream religions when it suited them, and that included Christians, Jews, Moslems and Hindus that I knew later, as well as Sikhs.

    I never understood it, but I must say those I first met and hung out with all those years ago back in 1974/5 were not of that ilk.

  2. shantam prem says:

    Parmartha,
    May I request you to visit nearby Sikh Gurudwara (the gateway to the guru) during next Sunday. I am not requesting some kind of prayer but taste of hospitality.

    Eat the food there and then any Indian restaurant of your choice. Let the taste buds decide: if restaurant food has given better satisfaction level I owe you the bill.

    Be sure, no one compels you or even hints indirectly for some donation.

    • avinashi says:

      Not everywhere, I have seen in one very famous gurudwara donation place, just near the eating place, and there is direct intention so that any person after eating if he/she does not donate will feel guilty. And even poor little children who are regular visitors for eating are treated badly by servers.

  3. swamishanti says:

    “You too will have to lose yourself; you too will have to drown. Death is only completed after three days, because the ego does not give up easily. The three days in Nanak’s story represent the time required for his ego to dissolve completely.”

    Did it take Osho three days for his ego to dissolve completely?
    Is he projecting his own experience onto this story of Nanak here?
    Or is he talking about something esoteric, ie the “three stages of enlightenment, from the fifth, to the sixth , to the seventh?”

    Hang on a minute, I`ll just given Maitreya a call in Bardo, to see if he can provide any clues here:

    Aha! Maitreya commented:
    “I just asked Source your question and he gave me this cosmic information: There are at present sixteen fully enlightened ones alive on the earth today.
    There are fifty-six enlightened ones in the second stage of realisation.
    And there are approximately three hundred and seventy-eight enlightened ones in the first stage of realisation. With love from Source.”

  4. Kavita says:

    I remember in my early sannyas days Osho saying something on the lines of (only don’t remember the discourse) an enlightened one’s energy lasts for seven years and in that period a chain reaction happens for his disciples who are on the path towards the pathless.

  5. shantam prem says:

    “There are at present sixteen fully enlightened ones alive on the earth today.
    There are fifty-six enlightened ones in the second stage of realization.
    And there are approximately three hundred and seventy-eight enlightened ones in the first stage of realization.”

    20 of mixed bunch of three categories are on Sannyasnews!

  6. Kapil says:

    For months, I have been feeling an irrepressible longing to die the meditative death. Feeding the longing-fire with moment-to-moment awareness. The post has added quite a bit of fuel to it.

    Parmartha, taking care of SN must absorb you completely. It reminds me of Shabri, a passionate devotee of the Hindu King Ram. Waiting for him, she lived in a forest. Every morning she would pluck plum berries, taste them, and would keep the sweetest and juiciest for Ram. You also pluck such sweet berries from Osho’s vast tree of wisdom for us. In addition, going through scores of comments, editing them, posting them every day must cost real labour. Do let me know if I can assist you in any way.

    • Parmartha says:

      There is a small team of SN workers in London, Kapil, and there always has been. I also manage a small day job, and have done so for many years. But thanks for thinking of the work that is involved with the site. Yes, between us it can be much more than it seems.

      Maybe you let us know a bit of your background and where you live, Kapil? Are you a sannaysin?

      • Kapil says:

        Dear Parmartha,

        I met Osho through one of his articles. (He had been referred to me by one of my professors, who happened to be His junior at Sagar University). At once, His words penetrated me. Something stirred inside! A moment of awakening! From that very moment, the pilgrimage towards the Ultimate started that has continued till date. Endless challenges, countless ups and downs; but no stepping back…

        Then unimaginable dimensions of beauty and bliss began to open.

        When the music of love was poured into the poetry of meditation, the whole life became a sheer melody. Love taught how to disappear, and meditation taught how to witness this painful process of disappearing. Both Osho and my beloved acted as catalysts. The journey still continues…am being absorbed into deeper and deeper nothingness. And I am no more scared of this void.

        I am not a sannyasin in the formal sense of the word; at heart I am, indeed.

        (I come from a small town, Katni, India. It is quite close to Osho’s birthplace. Presently, I am teaching English at an Indian University.

        I have done my PhD on Abraham Lincoln’s speeches. Am fond of reading; apart from literature and philosophy, I enjoy astro-physics, quantum mechanics, and string theory. These days, I am trying to combine the spiritual theory of Aum and string theory to understand the mystery of creation. Besides, I know a bit of Indian classical music, which is an essential component of the above research. Moreover, I have written a couple of short stories and Hindi and Urdu poems.

        All these things have been born out of the search for the Ultimate and have, in turn, nourished this search).

    • swami anand anubodh says:

      Kapil,

      What of your assertion (of only a day ago) that you could not recommend SN to anyone, and for its own good would benefit from dictatorship?

      • Kapil says:

        Swamiji,

        Few can know a master from his disciples. Mohammed is a case in point. To me, Talibanis and Bin Ladens projected him as a most murderous beast and the Quran as a bloodthirsty book. Having explored Mohammed’s life and the Quran, my opinions about them changed completely.

        I learnt two things:
        First, to see things in their real time context; second, not to approach a master through his disciples.

        Above all, meditation helped me tremendously. Now I am mature and can sort out the wheat from the chaff. But my fellow-meditators are still tender-hearted and may be wounded by intellectual/irrelevant warfare that often takes place in SN. Hence, SN is not referred to them.

        As long as Parmartha, or anybody with the same samyak drishti, is leading SN, I would keep visiting it.

        • Arpana says:

          I take it you consider Osho can be known through you?

        • anand yogi says:

          Kapil,

          If your students wish to, as you put it, “wade through thick filth” of “toxic, nasty, vicious” Sannyasnews, how do you know that this is not their rightful karma?

          You yourself have trudged heroically through the revolting mess of sannyasnews, which is not unlike wading through a public toilet near a holy shrine during a huge mela where there is an outbreak of dysentery, without leaving any footprints!

          And look! You have become even more enlightened from the experience!
          Why would you deny your students the same opportunity?
          Are you scared that even tho` caked with the excrement of baboons, cynics, women and homosexual-tolerators, they would come off better than you?

          My guru, Swami Bhorat, who is seldom wrong in these matter, tells me that it is time for you to transcend and go beyond, to forget about the others and die the meditative death you so long for,
          time to bite the big one, to kick the holy bucket, to fall off your perch, to check out of the Hari Om hotel, to rest in peace, to become an ex-dictator….

          Yahoo!
          Hari Om!

    • swamishanti says:

      I`d be interested to read some of what Osho spoke on Bhagwan Mahavira, his home guru. I guess the talks are in Hindi.

  7. anand yogi says:

    Perfectly correct, Kapil!

    I am also longing to die meditative death!
    But out of pure compassion one should strive to take as many with us as possible!
    For this reason, I have joined IS (Indian Sannyas)!
    By joining in such conscious dictatorship then certainly our path to the ultimate is clear-cut with no unclarity and confusion caused by unconscious democrats, vicious, nasty, filthy western baboons, women, cynics, homosexuals etc!

    Yahoo!
    Hari Om!

    • Tan says:

      Yogi,
      You are the best! XX

    • Kapil says:

      Dear Yogi,

      You can join me. But make haste! I will soon disappear into the unknown without a trace, as Osho says, “The birds that fly into the unknown leave no footprints behind.”

      • anand yogi says:

        Kapil, you say:
        “I will soon disappear into the unknown without a trace.”

        With all sincerity, from my heart I can say: that marvellous moment cannot come a moment too soon!

        Yahoo!
        Hari Om!

        • Lokesh says:

          Kapil says, “I will soon disappear into the unknown without a trace.”

          What a load of shite. Kapil, you have already disappeared into the unknown (nobody knows where you are), but not without a trace. There is a great hum of bullshit arising from most of what you say.
          Instead of the usual worldly ego trips, ‘my car is bigger than yours’, you have adapted the tired old spiritual ego trip. Your ego actually believing it has a choice or not about entering nothingness etc.

          Your great spiritual yearning rap sounds like something Paramahansa Yogananda might have come away with. The big difference is you do not actually have a living master to bounce off and steer you away from the pitfalls of the path, instead you blow your cracked trumpet declaring how close you are to Nirvana.

          Kapil declares, “Few can know a master from his disciples.” Well, that certainly is not true as far as Osho’s people go. We no longer wear orange and malas, but our distinct brand of individualism can still be seen a mile off. SN is a good representation of that individuality. Very little censorship and almost everyone is welcome, even you, Kapil, who only know Osho through his books and in my wee book that ranks as almost not at all.

          “Everyone is welcome” is very sannyasin in that Osho saw it in his heart to accept almost everyone. Look, he even let Shantam through the door. Shantam never actually met Osho and is so delusional he actually believes he is a torch bearer for the future of the Sannyas movement. How daft is that? Everyone round here knows Shantam is a clown, which does not mean we do not love and accept him…well, as far as I am concerned. He is a lovely guy.

          Now you, Kapil, come along with all your holy, holy cliches. You’ve been reading Osho for 20 years, that is impressive in the sense that it appears you have learned little from all that eye strain. If your yearning for freedom was in earnest you would have found a discipline, master, technique, path to bring you on the way to that which you say you are yearning for. Believe me, if you really are earnest you can do it. But you have not.

          Content to wallow in the mire of your own personal style of sleep, that includes looking down your nose and passing all sorts of corny judgements on people you actually know nothing about. And your self-righteous rap about democracy not working, mob rule etc. (very old argument, by the way). As if you have it all worked out. Not even a brilliant man like Osho had all that worked out, so what about a wally like you?

          You can remain the dictator of your virtual ashram if you wish, but I doubt any person round here will be interested in such nonsense, being familiar with a real ashram and teacher who was dead against people indulging in their head trips, which is how I would describe running a virtual ashram.

          Yes, Osho would have accepted you and sprinkled some bliss upon your thick head. Then he would have tossed you back in the tank with all the other fish, which is where you are now. Welcome to the club, you tadpole. Me? I am a guppy. Do not be taken in by Shantam, he is a blowfish…Talking of which I better blow. Have a nice swim.

          • Arpana says:

            ‘kin hell. Glad I’ve never really pissed you off.

          • shantam prem says:

            What a mental arrogance by the westerns who think they got jackpot by knowing personally an Indian guru, maybe first time in their family tree.

            I think Lokesh should meet Dr. Amrito, another gentleman who was hundred times closer to late Osho Jain, and discuss each other´s spiritual growth which has gone to two different stars which exist only on the mind.

            First generation Osho disciples have broken centuries-old myth of being with a living master and to have personal chit-chat with him. They prove no substance. That is why most of them go to this and that master to fill their mind.

            Even if you stitch your clothes for Osho your final salvation will be still in some Chinese monastery where they have never seen some western before.

            Being with living Osho, let the history remember what happened to the closest woman closer to Him! Life´s mathematics is not that easy, uncle Lokesh!

            • Lokesh says:

              MC Blowfish says, “I think Lokesh should meet Dr. Amrito.”

              But old chap, I have already, back in the old days. I remember him well and I liked the man. Of course, many moons have passed and I have no idea about who he is today and the one who liked him is just a bio-memory.

              That’s the thing, none of us are who we think we are. Such is the extent of our identification with the false. Unless you understand that we are not a unified being in our inner world, but rather a multiplicity, you are utterly lost. The witnessing consciousness watches on and recognizes our ephemeral nature. Here today, gone tomorrow. You too, Blowfish.

              Blowfish concludes, “Being with living Osho, let the history remember what happened to the closest woman closer to Him! Life´s mathematics is not that easy, uncle Lokesh!”

              This is an extremely negative and very cynical statement that shows how low this particular fishy fellow will go in an effort to score points. He is referring to Vivek, who just so happened to be bi-polar and a depressive. This is a clinical condition. Osho did perform the occasional miracle, but unfortunately was unable to heal the neuro receptor fault in his consort’s brain. Now, to use such a scenario to create some sort of warped general reflection of what is what with Osho’s early disciples is really scraping the bottom of the shite pot.

              Osho affected thousands of people’s lives in a very positive way, to the extent they will remain grateful for that for the rest of their lives. This is obviously not the case with Shantam. Poor chap, better luck next time.

              • shantam prem says:

                Lokesh has a typical clever Sagittarius mind: if benefit comes through playing good cop, play good cop, if it comes through playing bad cop, play bad cop. Main thing is, “I want to be the winner. If it is to lose the game, I will, because me want to be the winner.”

                Screwed personality in his own way; few people cannot sleep without sleeping pill, he cannot sleep without getting borrowed knowledge from books. When other use the same device it hurts his polished ego.

                I just cannot imagine, how this guy Kapil has created the class war among the oldies. Their collective scolding proves individual mind is as real as group mind.

  8. shantam prem says:

    What a coincidence. This string is about Sikhism, and here I want to share a 100 seconds talk of one of most admired Sikh preachers, late Sant Singh Maskeen. Maskeen´s videos are listened in Sikh circles as we listen Osho videos.

    Difference is surely great, Osho has established his identity, his own brand as one in the exclusive clubs who create religion instead of following, whereas Mr. Maskeen remained a preacher.

    In this video, incidentally recorded in his UK visit, he sheds light how someone who knows Osho from the time he was Acharya Rajneesh. Both have shared the stage.

    I think Kapil can translate this video for Parmartha and others.

    It is always said, if you want to create a complete sketch of someone´s profile, ask friends and foes both.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cHRsYiMYBY

    • satyadeva says:

      “Difference is surely great, Osho has established his identity, his own brand as one in the exclusive clubs who create religion instead of following…”

      Really, Shantam?

      Once again, you expose your fundamental misunderstanding, the one you use to rationalise your discontent, what’s wrong in your life. confusing what would suit you with what is actually the case.

      A classic instance of a totally emotionally-driven, conditioned preference undermining your intelligence, to the extent that you become just stupid, just a propagandising fool.

      • frank says:

        In this story Osho ends by saying: “Then each word uttered became so invaluable as to be beyond price, each word equal to the words of the Vedas.”

        Osho is saying, “Yes, Guru Grant Sahib is the biz, it`s in the same league as the Vedas.” Then all the guys with turbans and holy kit on murmur and nod their collective head in sage agreement.

        But if he had said, “It`s got some good stuff in it, but all in all it`s pretty past its sell-by-date” – which if Freddie N was his favourite philosopher, is probably was what he really thought, the same guys would have lynched him!

        He played them like a violin!
        He always did.

        The moral of the story is that religion is for utter morons who just want to hear what they`ve already been brainwashed to believe.

        It keeps them in control. Their idea of fun on this planet is getting control over people who are even more stupid than they are.

        Religion, eh?
        Bloody `ell!

        • swamishanti says:

          “Jainas say their tirthankara, their prophet, their messiah is omniscient. He knows everything – past, present and future, so whatsoever he says is the absolute truth. Buddha has joked about Mahavira, the Jaina messiah. They were contemporaries twenty-five centuries ago. Mahavira was getting old, but Buddha was young and was still capable of joking and laughing. He was still young and alive – he was not yet established. 

          Once you become an established religion, then you have your vested interests. Mahavira had an established religion thousands of years old, perhaps the oldest religion of the world – because Hindus say, and say rightly, that they have the oldest book in the world, the Rig Veda. Certainly it is now scientifically proved that the Rig Veda is the oldest scripture that has survived. But in the Rig Veda, the first Jaina messiah is mentioned; that is proof enough that the Jaina messiah has preceded the Rig Veda. And he is mentioned: his name is Rishabhadeva. 

           
          He is mentioned with a respect that it is impossible to have towards a contemporary. It is just human weakness, but it is very difficult to be respectful towards somebody who is contemporary and alive, just like you. It is easy to be respectful to somebody who has died long ago. The way the Rig Veda remembers Rishabhadeva is so respectful that it seems that he must have been dead for at least a thousand years, not less that that, so Jainism is a long-established religion. 

          Buddhism was just starting with Buddha. He could afford to joke and laugh, so he jokes against Mahavira and his omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. He says, “I have seen Mahavira standing before a house begging” – because Mahavira lived naked and used to beg just with his hands. Buddha says, “I have seen him standing before a house which was empty. There was nobody in the house – and yet this man, Jainas say, is a knower, not only of the present, but of the past and the future.” 

          Buddha says, “I saw Mahavira walking just ahead of me, and he stepped on a dog’s tail. It was early morning and it was not yet light. Only when the dog jumped, barking, did Mahavira come to know that he had stepped on his tail. This man is omniscient, and he does not know that a dog is sleeping right in his way, and he is going to step on his tail.” 

           But the same happened with Buddha when he became established.

          After three hundred years, when his sayings and statements were collected for the first time, the disciples made it absolutely clear that “everything written here is absolutely true, and it is going to remain true forever.” 

          ‘From Ignorance to Innocence’

      • shantam prem says:

        It is you, Satyadeva, who is blinded by the latest western fashion to impose their colour on everything.

        Let me say it very clearly:
        Your Meera is an Hindu and Ramana Maharshi, the deity of western spiritual orphans too has never been other than Hindu.

        During last centuries of Indian mystics, only J. krishnamurti and UG have not exploited religious sentiments, everybody else for sure.

        All these others can be classified those British MILF`s whose specialisation is Interactive porn: “Come to Mammy…You naughty boy…Mammy will make you the man. Come follow me.”

        • satyadeva says:

          Is Meera promoting a new religion, did Maharshi promote a new religion? Did anyone of any genuine worth ever promote a new religion? No. Who did then? The stupid ones like you, Shantam, after such people died.

          More to the point of this argument:
          Is Sannyas a new religion, promoted by Osho?

          Shantam, as I said, this is right at the heart of your entire misplaced stance, that’s causing you a great deal of suffering, a waste of your precious life-energy – dressed up, in your own mind, of course, as a ‘noble crusade’.

          To put it bluntly, notwithstanding rare exceptional cases of individual people, religion, as created and promoted after the original masters exit the stage, is, or pretty quickly becomes, untruth dressed up as the real deal; it’s basically consolation and community for mediocrities.

          Perhaps that’s why you yearn for it all, as that would make you feel ‘comfortable’, so it might well be where you ‘belong’ (or think you belong).

          And as we can all see, it can also potentially be extremely dangerous psychic poison that can attract the terminally discontented and threaten, in our times, the entire world.

          You expected something from Sannyas that’s not – and probably never has been – on the agenda. And you’re too blinded by personal emotion to even see that. Instead, each criticism spurs you on to dig yourself an even deeper trench.

          It wouldn’t be a surprise that if you were ever to really see this whole situation for what it is, you’d very likely break down, realising how much time and energy, how much life you’ve wasted, chasing a purely personal (ie basically self-ish, created by your self for your own personal convenience) dream.

  9. shantam prem says:

    I think we need to discuss once in a clear terms, what is basically Sannyas in the eyes of patrons and its founder.

    Is Sannyas nameless religion with very flexible entrance and leaving rules. It is a cult, a correspondence course about self-relaxation?

    People changed their names for what?

    Wearing malas of a man just because he has beard is never heard of unless there is some kind of religious ceremony behind. Anyway, mala was given after some kind of ceremony.

    All these points and more need to be discussed because people like Satyadeva remind me of a Romanian saying, “One must respect every man in the village, who knows, he may be the father.”

    When people read so much, visit so many different thought providers, it is natural to mix their identity, their style, their presentation.

  10. samarpan says:

    “More to the point of this argument: Is Sannyas a new religion, promoted by Osho?” (Satyadeva)

    You are joking, right? This must be a rhetorical question. For anyone with even a superficial knowledge of Osho’s NEO-SANNYAS…the answer would be a resounding “NO!” (It doesn’t matter whether knowledge of Osho is from being present in discourses or from only having read books – it doesn’t matter at all).

    Osho was consistent about not creating any religion. Osho was consistent that his concern was with the individual, not the collective, with the organism, not the organization. Osho was intentionally inconsistent at times with the stated intention of wanting to drive anyone crazy who tried to create a religion out of his song.

    Except as a joke, or a temporary legal strategy, “Rajneeshism” has never existed. No “Rajneeshism” exists today. Osho himself refused to identify as “Rajneeshee” and openly made fun of those who did identify as such.

    Osho’s NEO-SANNYAS is misunderstood by anyone who thinks it is in any way a religion, resembles a religion, functions as a religion, is a substitute for religion, can be rationally thought to be a religion, contains religious elements (beliefs, commandments, scriptures, missionaries, places of worship, religious “leaders”), etc.

    As Satyadeva famously and repeatedly states, if you believe NEO-SANNYAS is in any way remotely a “religion”…you might be deceiving yourself.

    • satyadeva says:

      Well said, Samarpan.

      Just to clarify (although your last paragraph indicates you get where I’m coming from) re your first few lines above, I was responding to Shantam’s:
      “Difference is surely great, Osho has established his identity, his own brand as one in the exclusive clubs who create religion instead of following…” (July 6, 3.54pm). And my post can also be taken as a response to Shantam’s of July 6, 6.15pm (although I hadn’t seen that one before I wrote it).

      I do wonder, though, why you chose to address me rather than Shantam himself. Perhaps you regard him as some sort of endangered species, who might wither and perish if you so much as look him in the eye.

      It’s been blindingly clear for years that Shantam’s version of what Sannyas is supposed to be is way out of kilter. If one or two of his stubbornly held beliefs are in danger of crumbling as a result of such posts then so much the better, it’ll be a relief for 99% of SN readers.

      Hopefully now, with the reality being repeatedly stressed by several contributors, notably yourself and Lokesh today, he might possibly begin to question his standpoint.

      Although bearing in mind the internal price, the loss of ‘psychic armour’ he might well have to pay for facing even the basic truths put out today I wouldn’t bet on it, not at all. Look out for conveniently swerving the key issues as if they don’t exist, plus, if under undue pressure, the’race card’, would be my prediction….

      • swamishanti says:

        Satyadeva, you are wasting your time, you are like Wile e Coyote trying to catch Roadrunner: He keeps trying but can never get him.

        You have tried to express the same arguments to Shantam in multiple attempts of thousand different ways, but I doubt he will ever want to agree with you.

        In fact, your attempts will probably make him more likely to stick to his guns. He is a Sikh, after all, is he not, and I expect Sikhs have some kind of warrior mentality type of conditioning. Perhaps that’s why they are carrying the dagger.

        MOD: WHO ARE Wile e Coyote AND Roadrunner, SS?

        • satyadeva says:

          Yes, you’re almost certainly right of course, SS. But I did write this earlier:

          “Although bearing in mind the internal price, the loss of ‘psychic armour’ he might well have to pay for facing even the basic truths put out today I wouldn’t bet on it, not at all. Look out for conveniently swerving the key issues as if they don’t exist, plus, if under undue pressure, the’race card’, would be my prediction…”

          To which I’ll add, look out for the outraged counter-attack….

        • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

          You’ve posted beautiful songs, Swamishanti, and just very recently a song of prayer which is dedicated: ´Don´t break anybody’s heart as God just resides there´(as I read the meaning just now).

          Would like to ask you:
          How come – what is your insight about in your ordinary words, if you please – that the happenings of responding chat-wise here are so far astray from this beautiful intention?

          You are a longtime contributor here, maybe you can share a response?

          Madhu

          • satyadeva says:

            “Would like to ask you:
            How come – what is your insight about in your ordinary words, if you please – that the happenings of responding chat-wise here are so far astray from this beautiful intention?”

            Apart from the sheer stupidity of certain posts, which receive deserved put-downs, it might well be connected to the medium itself, Madhu.

            I suggested this the other day when implying that online communication is essentially unbalanced, flawed even, given only one sense (ok, two if we include touching the keyboard!) is operating (plus various parts of the brain). Reminds me a bit of the telephone – from which, I believe, the word ‘phoney’ comes…

            Not only that, of course; the very fact of being on one’s own, relating directly to just one dimension of others’ being, cutting out ‘normal’ factors in human relations where people are in close physical proximity (not in the ‘illicit’ Muslim sense!) eliminates those elements that can tend to ‘contain’ or modify our behaviour (unless drunk, drugged, in some encounter group or pushed beyond our habitual threshold of stress by some perceived outrage!). Hence allowing us to feel ‘free-er’ than usual, very often free-er to pour out negativity on those we disapprove of.

            Not too surprising, perhaps, also given any restrictive, even repressive conditions of our daily lives in the outside world, surrounded by incipient insanity as seems to be often enough the case for some of us (all of us if we take too much notice of the official ‘News’).

            Anyway, a few thoughts to maybe help open up the discussion….

            • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

              For me, Satyadeva, the chat is one thing, and my very private diary is another.

              In the chat here, I try my best to relate, (still) presuming that there is someone (in a body, a sentient being) floating in that virtual fish tank, as Lokesh called it, who also likes to share and to relate.

              Maybe the latter is delusionary?
              What do you mean?

              Madhu

              P.S:
              Maybe Swamishanti answered my quest…his way? By repeating with another of the same prayer-songs?

              Well – quite often I felt/feel, when trying to understand what´s passed over – like ´Alice in Wonderland´, with quite a bunch of ´kings´ and a few ´queens´…and/or like the animated figures on a virtual playground.

              But I don´t speak of that nice L. Carroll novel here, more of experiencing the ways to deal response-wise with one another like in secret societies and war zones.

              Not only untransparent but also hostile.

              I spoke about that every now and then (got the ´hit, I would seem to be a paranoid character). Fact is, though – I ve never been far from your description of the conditions/the medium, nor I am now.

              • swamishanti says:

                “Maybe Swamishanti answered my quest…his way? By repeating with another of the same prayer-songs?”

                Actually, I just posted the same song, viewed live in the studio.
                What I have seen, as in that recording, is in recent years Sufi music is becoming popular in places like Pakistan and India with the younger generation and younger musicians and djs, and there is some fusion of Sufi music with modern styles.

                I am reminded of the collaboration between trip-hop group Massive Attack and another Pakistani quawwilli maestro, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan: ‘Musta Must’

                MOD: IS THAT LAST BIT OK?

                • swamishanti says:

                  I was talking about Massive Attack`s remix of ‘Mustt Mustt’:
                  https://youtu.be/HJQooj11zjU

                  Actually I had thought it was a collaboration but just found out that the remix is from a track that was originally from a collaboration between Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan and guitarist and producer Michael Brook.

          • swamishanti says:

            The lyrics she sings in that song are based on some of the poetry of Baba Bulleh Shah, a Sufi poet who lived hundreds of years ago.

            The lyrics to the qawalli are here:

            http://www.koolmuzone.pk/forum/lyrics-and-guitar-tabs/lyrics-abida-parveen-nigah-e-darwaishaan-(coke-studio-season-3-episode-3)/

            Bulleh states:

            “Tear down the mosque and temple too, break all that divides
            But do not break the human heart as it is there that God resides.”

            http://onetruename.com/bullehshah.htm

            I don’t see how these lyrics really apply to Sannyasnews. I don’t take it too seriously.
            From what Shantam has written before, I guess he is rather a devotional type who likes to sit in churches and cries. Nothing wrong with that, perhaps that is his ‘path’. I have met a few people like that.

            But who I am I to judge such a thing? I have never even met him.

            • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

              Thank you, Swamishanti, for sharing some context and the lyrics too.

              In times of terror and war of terror and war against the terror ideologists of ISIS for example, it´s very good to keep in awareness that young people of Europe, whose brains, so to say, are still on the verge of ripening and in the turmoil of finding their way to grow up in precarious times, are kind of brainwashed in and with the misuse of such Sufi poetry to join a devastating terror fight. That is simply a very well known fact (here), and very shocking too, to what extent the misuse of such poetry has developed in the course of the very last decades.

              That´s a sad story! And good to know about it. Sad, as when we really go into the lyrics of some centuries ago, we truly can understand the rebelliousness of hearts to resist some crusted political and politico-religious means to enslave the minds of men.

              In the 21st century though, we also have to face the fact how so-called purity and freedom fighters are having more than a tendency to destroy the cultural heritage of their homelands by misusing it in a mad and maddening and utterly destructive way.

              Sheding some light on this, including reading some of the lyrics of ancient times and acknowledging its wisdom and taking care not to fall hostage in a trap of some insane shortcut version of misunderstandings or even insane actions is quite a device and worth any effort.

              And yes, Swamishanti, in the realms of music fusions and crossover culture meetings of musicians there have been many remarkable and beautiful sharings. Always, btw.

              If this all belongs here, you ask, on Sannyas News Caravanserai? Yes, it does, I guess, as it is happening anyway.

              However, I am reminded day by day of some counsel from ancient LaoTzu, who is said to have said:
              “A meditator goes step by step – as in winter, crossing a stream, taking care of every step on a very slippery ground.” (My version of the metaphor).

              You seem to be quite relaxed, Swamishanti, skilled in graphic compilations too, and rarely, almost never loo]se your balance (at least verbally here).

              Congratulations.

              Have a nice day, wherever.

              Madhu

          • Tan says:

            Madhu,
            What do you mean? That you are “heartbroken”, here in SN, sometimes? Could you elaborate more? XXX

            • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

              Tan, thanks for asking.

              If we want/agree on such as “heartbroken”, I´d rather say I joined the sharing here, knowing about the one or other “heartbreaks” in my life and especially while moving in the ´fish-tank´ (thanks, Lokesh, for your vivid metaphor) in the neo-Sannyas realms and meanwhile, histories.

              The UK SN chat dealt and still is dealing with some crucial points I didn´t feel a space elsewhere to communicate about amongst sannyasins in the open and also honest way I find here.

              I joined, as I have been reading it anyway, and decided that – although I am in despair about the tone sometimes – I´d better join and contribute and share, as one of the fragmented souls being present.

              I know Lokesh is ever again hitting the target with his elaborations, that he sometimes pours out energetically with hot steam, and one of his ´counterparts, Satyadeva, with his cool, sometimes icy (psycho)analyst´s views , hitting some other targets, and I could go on trying to describe my inner experiencing here, while chatting, reading, responding as to my best capacity.

              No, Tan, I am not “heartbroken” because of an SN chat, I have been”heartbroken” before. However, I am sometimes in despair about the war-issues in verbal actions amongst a bunch of humans in a heart-break- caravanserai-hostel, so to say, where everybody is stuck in his or her unique way and fighting in his or her very, very unique way, and if it gets into being very stupid, when it´s going nowhere at all, but into getting worse in circles, and also under heavy “armour”, as Satyadeva pointed out.

              A late German artist dedicated his work as a ´Social Sculpture´, saying: “Everybody is an Artist.”
              And what he was also up to was to encourage: “Show your Wound.”

              Much ‘life-liness’ and fresh air was born out of it.

              Madhu

              P.S:
              To understand what the HEART-SUTRA says needs – needs in a heartbreak-hostel-caravanserai – quite some patience of the ´patient´, I would say.

  11. Lokesh says:

    Shantam postulates, “I think we need to discuss once in a clear terms, what is basically Sannyas in the eyes of patrons and its founder.”

    That is an easy one. Sannyas is a return to old time religion, the one true religion that has existed down through the ages. There is nothing new about it because it is as old as man himself. This religion marks out as a foundation that the only religion that works has to do solely with what takes place in one’s inner world. It has nothing to do with the outside world of name and form.

    This religion takes place in the privacy and solitude of one’s inner temple, where you alone worship in the sense that you have an inner drive to change and make right all that is damaged in your inner world. You have the right not to be negative and this right guides you on the path.

    As you are, so the world outside will appear. The mass of humanity believes that changing what is external to them will bring them peace and happiness, and so the world turns. This is, of course, not how it works. “Seek ye first the kingdom of God” is the only real commandment of this ancient religion. The idea being that the deeper you go the higher is your state of consciousness, increasing one’s understanding of how life works. And it does work, because the deeper one moves the more signs appear that say you are on the right path.

    There is no need for an external teacher after you pass a certain point in inner development, because our real teacher is actually who we really are. We are not who we think we are. This ancient understanding/religion, is not for everyone, because it was never meant to be. Osho was well aware of this, hence his insistence on developing a meditative quality in one’s daily life. The beauty of it is that this can be done in the marketplace, without the need of retreating to a cave or monastery.

    All outward forms of the Sannyas movement are for beginners. Those who understand Osho’s essential message, the only way is in, live their lives accordingly. in the sense that they put effort into being present as much as possible, wherever they find themselves. This might sound simple and easy, but if you understand what I am saying, you will know that it is extremely difficult and no place for the faint-hearted.

    • Tan says:

      What a post!
      MC Blowmymind, on the spot! Cheers! XXX

    • shantam prem says:

      Sannyas is not like old religions where you hire a carpenter like priest. It is based on the concept of Ikea.
      Sannyas is also like KFC. Chickens cooked with spices is as old a recipe as discovery of fire. Founder of KFC marketed his own style.
      Sannyas is also like ALDI. Founders have the vision to bring affordable luxury to the masses.

      Founder of Sannyas has the similar vision, simply the religious scriptures, bend them like Bhagwan and sell them in the mass market of Buddhahood at discounted price.

      Sannyas being a religious product offers no guarantee. Many people have the idea, if you sing adoring poetry for the founder of Sannyas, luxury flat in heaven will be given at affordable price!

  12. shantam prem says:

    May I request you, Lokesh, being an intelligent and down-to-earth person, do one exercise:
    Delete the word Sannyas from your above posted draft and write, Buddhism/Sanatan Dharma/ Christianity/Jain Path/Sikhism.

    After all that, you can even sell the above draft to the Arabian Monarchy. They can propagate all around the world, true meaning of Islam.

    Maybe you can do past life sessions. Who knows, like many of us you too have long chain of lives as priest of this or that religion and their sects.

    • Lokesh says:

      Shantam, you are not in the least interested in inner development, this is made clear by almost everything you post on SN. You are no different from those who think if they get this and that then they will be happy. That is normal.

      There exists something beautiful right in front of your eyes that you are completely blind to. That is also normal.

      You believe in change on the outside. Really, it is none of my business. Good luck to you.

      All your efforts to make yourself appear intelligent and erudite on SN are very transparent and underneath it all lies the simple fact that you are very stupid in certain respects. Once again, none of my business.

      Maybe the same thing will one day happen to you that happened to me. A massive shock happened and I was knocked out of my daydream and awoken to the fact that for most of my life I had been wasting my time on things that did not nurture anything worthwhile, to the extent that it was all a bit destructive.

      At first, when that process kicks in, it is horrifying, because you see that you have been a complete fool in the past. As time passes you start to acknowledge that it was the greatest thing that ever happened in your life.

      You either understand what I am expressing, or you do not. There is nothing to argue about or be proven. That is the thing about truth, it always comes true.

      • shantam prem says:

        Again you come on the level of your stupid Smugness.

        Can you learn something new in your remaining years, Lokesh, that writing about inner development has nothing to do with inner development?

        If that was the case, priests around the world can describe google map of inner development better than any of us.

        Inner development and the work of that is so subjective, even one´s own self is not able to grasp. It is not size of the penis, sleeping one 3 cms., developed one 6.5 cms and those who hang Mystical Roses can develop it to the level of 7.5 cms. If roses are fresh and hands are soft, it can even become 9.5 cms.

        Alas, it is not so.

        Your consciousness and your awareness coming from your own posts is so lopsided, someone like Kapil has posted only about his inner development and you freaked out.

        I am willing to do an open Skype Discussion with you on Inner Development. Just imagine hundred people are asked to give their opinion based on that video discussion. You think it will matter in the long run other than the usual humility, “I am humbled by your support. It will encourage me even deeper to go even deeper.”

        Judging about Inner Development is Nonsense unless some master is teaching the pupils.

        • Lokesh says:

          Shantam, you appear to have missed my conclusion, so I repeat it:
          “You either understand what I am expressing, or you do not. There is nothing to argue about or be proven.”

          Then you write, “I am willing to do an open Skype Discussion.”

          That comes across like you did not even bother to read what I wrote, which I suspect you did not, simply looking for an excuse to argue the point. The fundamental error that underlies much of what you say here on SN is that you mistakenly believe everyone else is just like you. They are not. You are a stubborn fool and it takes a stubborn fool to get overly involved with your stupid comments. Sorry to disappoint, but I cannot fulfil such a role. I said what I had to say and took the time to respond how I saw fit. That is enough. I have better things to do than argue. Arguing is a negative activity and a complete waste of time. End of story.

      • shantam prem says:

        Lokesh, read your post again.

        If you start a communication by hitting at the other, communication stops, attack provokes attack.

        Heading of any post is the most important; if the first sentence is aggressive, every wise sentence that follows won´t have the desired effect.

        MOD: PLEASE SPECIFY WHICH POST YOU MEAN HERE, Shantam.

        • shantam prem says:

          Mr. Editor,
          When it is end of the story then you can delete the whole discussion based on Lokesh/Shantam communication.

          MOD:
          IT WILL REMAIN AS IT STANDS, Shantam, UNLESS Lokesh ALSO WANTS IT ALL DELETED.

          ALSO, WE NOTE THAT YOUR RECENT POST TO Lokesh (July 7, 2.14pm) STARTS IN THE SORT OF “aggressive” WAY YOU HAVE JUST CONDEMNED. MAY WE SUGGEST YOU’RE MORE CAREFUL?

          • shantam prem says:

            Parmartha, it is true. That post of mine is aggressive because it was a reaction. I will surely modify the contents of that post.

            I cannot say about the others but many times I have asked you to delete some of my posts when I feel I have punched under the belt.

            Overall I have not much regret as others jump like a mob. Coming from the same seed, flowers smell similar, the collective mind is ghetto mind. When 100 people agree in unison, “Our inner voice is our Osho, won´t it be termed as collective belief?

            In any situation, to hurt someone intentionally is not my intention and I am sure none of us has that brutal mind. In the flow, when I have hit under the belt, I regret and say “Sorry”.

            • satyadeva says:

              Fair enough, Shantam. And no doubt in person you’re as Lokesh has favourably described you.

              Online, however, it’s a different matter. Eg, you say:
              “Overall I have not much regret as others jump like a mob. Coming from the same seed, flowers smell similar, the collective mind is ghetto mind. When 100 people agree in unison, “Our inner voice is our Osho, won´t it be termed as collective belief?”

              Just because you are generally in a minority of one here, Shantam, doesn’t mean you’re up against “a mob”. It might FEEL like it, but I suggest it’s more a matter of individuals disagreeing with you on various levels on practically every issue. And getting fed up with what comes across too many times as sheer stupidity.

              Let me remind you of the old ‘growth movement’ adage:
              If one person calls you a horse, you can pretty safely ignore him. If two people do likewise, it might be worth just checking…If three people say the same, it could become a bit more worrying…If four all agree, it’s a problem…Any more, and you’d better get a saddle!

              Writing here and elsewhere online seems to be a sort of much-needed ‘therapy’ for you, but while it might relieve you of some emotional stress and make you think you’re ‘doing something’, I reckon you might be a lot better off reducing how much you post and increasing its quality.

              Then you might – possibly – have a chance to recover some, at least, of the intelligence you appear to have lost through allowing yourself to be run, apparently almost totally, by your aberrant personal emotions, notably outrage at being a ‘victim’ of others’ mistreatment and ‘wrong’ actions.

              There are few, if any, better ways to personal disempowerment than that. I and, I’m sure, many others who frequent SN, will assure you of this, which is pretty basic stuff to grasp, actually.

  13. shantam prem says:

    “That is the thing about truth, it always comes true.”

    What is that truth, Lokesh? Truth which Osho was preaching or Mooji is preaching? Can the truth of two people be the same guy? Is the truth of Jayesh and Shantam the same?

    Quotations which sound very good need to be looked at ironically once in a while?

    While writing this, I remember Osho saying, “In Silence is the truth.” So when thousands sit together, one can feel that presence of truth.

    After this comment, I try to post a comment with Silence.

  14. shantam prem says:

    I wanted to post an empty post depicting Silence.

    Software answered, “ERROR: please type a comment”!
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    After every dot there is a silence.

    • satyadeva says:

      You’re so filled with noise you wouldn’t know silence even if you were in a desert at night, hundreds of miles from anywhere or anyone.

      The same never-ending din inside your head prevents you understanding – or even bothering to read – much of what others say to you here.

      Do yourself a big favour, Shantam:

      Just shut the f—k up.

  15. shantam prem says:

    Osho And Guru Nanak

    Being a Sikh sannyasin, let me share one small incident…

    I never purchased Osho´s book on Guru Nanak´s epic poem praising nameless, faceless, fearless, self-contained “The One” in different verses and then in the end talking about the different inner stages of human evolution.

    From time to time I have listened these twenty discourses but did not purchase them also. After reading and feeling so many Osho books it was easy to feel that Master is talking less about Japji and more about his own style of mixing His wisdom to win friends by influencing others.

    1988-89, when he dropped Bhagwan Shree, I think we all have heard his loving confession, something like, “I was gathering my people, i was hanging my coat on their hangers” etc. etc.

    Exactly this was my feeling and not buying his only book on Sikhism was my way of saying, “I know your trick. You cannot hang your coat on Guru Nanak´s hanger.”

    In any case, among all the Indian sects and cults, Sikhs were mostly very supportive towards him and offered him Sikh temple mikes without any reservation. Osho appreciated too and called this small community the bravest and the salt of India.

    • frank says:

      Absolutely.
      In one of his most famous Dohas (rhyming couplets), the legendary mystic poet Kabab opined:
      “Punjabi born and Punjabi bred,
      Strong in the arm but thick in the `ead.”

      It`s pretty easy to manipulate a Sikh – you just have to call him brave.
      The British Raj guys did it and got them to do most of their dirty work, including slaughtering their own countrymen.

      “Sikhs were mostly very supportive towards him and offered him Sikh temple mikes without any reservation.”

      What about the time when he was assaulted by an angry mob when he got off the train in Amritsar in the Acharya days?

      Selective memory is a wonderful thing.

      • shantam prem says:

        Frank, it seems you have passionately spent every single day of your adult life around Osho.
        I am sure Iust have seen you around in the commune and around, in white robe, maroon robe, street clothes, taking some girl or guy on the scooter, buying cigarettes and other stuff, changing currency in black market etc. etc.

        One fundamental thing I am sure you have not learnt from Osho, “Don´t say anything hiding behind the bush.”

        As an Osho historian, no one can blame for selective memories. It is only me who writes, master of meditation has given free run to His disciples to try every conceivable variation of ’69 to 00′.

        As far as mob in Amritsar is concerned during Acharya days, I am not sure whether it was a Sikh mob or the Arya Samaj mob, a militant and reformative Hindu sect.

  16. shantam prem says:

    I also must say, I have deep appreciation for Lokesh, Satyadeva and many more western disciples who have shared their similar views after reading somehow my militant version of Sannyas Inc.

    I know intentions of all these people are pious, they are not professional group leaders and helpers but will go out of the way to help someone if the person comes across their way.
    So I have never doubted their sincerity and honesty and integrity on their path.

    I am sure, not almost but everyone on the sannyasnews has not misused their power or are the reasons for tremendous fall of Sannyas as a close-knit spiritual movement, they are not to blame for any kind of internal sabotage.

    So keeping in mind this, I will go on playing my harp for the regime change in Pune. What happened in Rajneeshpuram is nothing compared to the power games and one man´s iron grip control.

    In a way, I don´t need to be reminded again and again that I am an Indian sentimentalist who wants to have religion around Osho. It is misunderstanding. One can build the religion around someone who is perfect as Messiah. Osho is not. He did not play this role and I have no vested interests to make him one.

    First generation disciples, we are well aware about the human follies of Mr. Zorba Jain! Osho is a spiritual and social scientist who created a complete science of Inner by plucking best of the best from everywhere.

    I have no intention to accept Crown Prince´s version of Osho and my transiting Uranus in 9th house won´t accept skeletons in the cupboards.

    P.S:
    Those who have no basic knowledge of astrology, please google 9th and 12th houses of Astrology. These two houses are consigned to organised religions and mystical tendencies.

    MOD:
    Shantam, WE HOPE YOU KEEP TO YOUR RESOLUTION AS SN POLICY IS NOT TO LET THE SITE BE OVER-USED AS A VEHICLE FOR THE REPETITION OF ONE PERSON’S VIEWS!

  17. shantam prem says:

    P.P.S:
    And from now onwards, at sannyasnews I will reduce my political part by up to 90% and also steep reduction in reacting at others with scornful sarcasm.

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