How did the Gurdjieff Movements come into the Sannyas world ?
“Osho saw the movie ‘Meetings with Remarkable Men’ and, as far as I heard, he did not like the movie much; but liked the 10 minutes of the Movements at the end. He apparently said, “We should do them here.” He gave the project to Amiyo and Yogendra, I believe. As they knew very little, they wrote to many Gurdjieff groups asking for assistance but they got mostly negative replies. Amiyo learned the movements just from watching the movie over and over again.
https://vimeo.com/67525221
“Many might not know that ‘Meetings with Remarkable Men’ was filmed with the blessings of the Gurdjieff Foundation, directed by Peter Brook, himself a member of the Gurdjieff Foundation, with Jeanne de Salzmann as a consultant. So the dances were authentic, shortened versions of the movements, but accurately done. The people doing the parts were actors but the people doing the movements were Gurdjieff pupils. So that was all we had in the beginning.
“After about 2 years, in 1991, some ex-Gurdjieff people came to the commune and they gave us some notes and showed us various postures, but they were very incomplete. But shortly afterwards there was a breakthrough! We got that film which you saw the other night. It was secretly filmed in a Japanese movie theatre at a convention of the Gurdjieff Foundation. When I first saw it I was enthralled! At that time I was leading the intensive together with Sangati and so it was our turn to sit in front of the video player, watching, rewinding, watching…until we had understood the movements. And then we taught them.”
Jivan
How did the Gurdjieff Movements come into the Sannyas world? How did products come in Aldi and Lidl? Do some modification in the original and sell them with the seal of quality.
Sannyas world is basically a Lidl for 20 kind of massages, 10 kind of Hypnosis, 15 kind of Tantras, 5 type of Reiki and innumerable paths leading to the Town Hall called Love.
Sannyas world is basically a superstore where sales persons are more in number than the customers.
It is really leela, leela, life is just a play!
Shantam, very beautifully soothing piece of writing from you. Probably you should explore this more!
“Very beautifully soothing piece of writing” – Kavita, are you sarcastic to say satire as “soothing”?
No, Shantam, I didn’t take the entire post to be satirical at all. Except for the “leela” part.
Your comment is spot on. The truth.
Take anything and just put an Osho label on it, and resell it at a higher price.
Take Reiki, put Osho on it, now you have ‘Osho Reiki’.
Take Gurdjieff movements, stick the word Osho on it, now you have ‘Osho Gurdjieff Movements’.
Take tennis, put Zen on it, now you have ‘Zennis’.
It’s all about branding.
So funny… “a superstore where sales persons are more in number than the customers.” So true.
I’ve always had the feeling in Osho centres that everyone is trying to sell you something…either sessions, or a massage….
Some people in London lead advertised active meditations, without acknowledging Osho. I don’t feel good about that myself.
So I can understand some people from the Gurdjieff Institute not liking the movements nicked by Poona. However, at least in Sannyas they were acknowledged as coming from Gurdjieff.
Some people have the laugh of Leela on their face even when they nick things! Now is Leela a defence of stealing?
If some people have advised active meditations without mentioning Osho it means Osho books and his youtube clips have not made inroads in the British society.
What I am saying time and again is that when the root of a tree gets corrupted, branches cannot exist green for long time.
In almost every western city all the Indian cults have more space and people to meditate together than the cult of Osho, whereas we all know Osho meditations are far superior and finer in their effect.
“So I can understand some people from the Gurdjieff Institute not liking the movements nicked by Poona. However, at least in Sannyas they were acknowledged as coming from Gurdjieff.” –
Gurdjieff himself took it from the Sarmoung Brotherhood and I remember reading in one of his books something on the lines of: ‘if one takes anything from anyone then it is their responsibility to acknowledge that openly’, which he evidently did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmoung_Brotherhood
In essence, although Osho borrowed a lot from Gurdjieff’s Work and integrated it into his own, a lot of what Sannyas is about lies in a completely different internal direction from that of Gurdjieff’s work.
There are many instances of this, the first one coming to mind being the importance Osho laid on catharsis. Gurdjieff was dead against such practices. His emphasis being on internal observation as opposed to expression.
Sannyasins in general would agree on the importance of getting one’s shit out. Whereas Gurdjieff’s people would observe their shit, acknowledge its existence and enquire as to how this shit came to be and what is sustaining it and then proceed in an internal direction that would lead to the dissolution of the aforementioned shit by cutting off that which gives vital sustenance to it: part of a Gurdjieffan technique that shows how to identify the negative ‘I’s that are part and parcel of the human machine.
“Sannyasins in general would agree on the importance of getting one’s shit out. Whereas Gurdjieff’s people would observe their shit, acknowledge its existence and enquire as to how this shit came to be and what is sustaining it and then proceed in an internal direction that would lead to the dissolution of the aforementioned shit by cutting off that which gives vital sustenance to it: part of a Gurdjieffan technique that shows how to identify the negative ‘I’s that are part and parcel of the human machine.”
Very good.
‘Shit Happens’…and its religious definitions:
TAOISM ————- Shit Happens.
BUDDHISM ———– Shit happening is an illusion.
CONFUCIANISM ——- Confucius says, “Shit happens”.
ZEN —————- What is the sound of shit happening?
ADVAITA ———— To whom does this shit happen?
ISLAM ————– Shit happening is the will of Allah.
CATHOLICISM ——– If shit happens, you deserve it.
PROTESTANTISM —— Let shit happen to someone else.
ORTHODOX ———– Our shit is very special.
JUDAISM ———— Why does this shit always happen to us?
JEHOVAH’S WITNESS — Let us in and we’ll tell you why shit happens.
CALVINISM ———- Shit happens because you don’t work hard enough.
CHRISTIAN SCIENCE — If shit happens, pray and it will go away.
MORMONISM ———- If shit happens…Fuck it!
HINDUISM ———– This shit has happened before.
HARE KRISHNA ——- Shit Happens, Shit Happens, Shit Shit, Happens Happens.
ATHEISM ———— Shit happens for no reason at all.
AGNOSTIC ———– Maybe shit happens, maybe it doesn’t.
STOICISM ———– So shit happens…I can take it.
PAGANISM ———– Shit is a part of the Goddess too.
SCIENTOLOGY ——– Join a course and you’ll know why shit happens.
RASTAFARIANISM —– Let’s smoke this shit and see what happens.
LAOTSEISM ———- The shit that can be described is not the absolute shit.
OSHOISM ———— If you don’t see shit in my eyes, in my gesture and in my silence, you will never find it in my words.
BYRONKATIESM ——- What would you be without that shit?
BACHISM ———— If you give a few drops of this shit in a bottle and take it four times daily, you are able to better bear all the other shit.
YOGANANDAISM ——- Always concentrate on the shit on the top of your head.
RUMIISM ———— Love that shit.
FREUDISM ———– Let’s talk about your shit since childhood.
PAPAJISM ———– There is no shit.
SATSANGISM ——— Damned, why don’t shit understand that shit already is that shit?!
TANTRISM ———– Breathe deeply into the shit.
AVATARISM ———- I am the source of all this shit.
ASTROLOGISM ——– Tell me your birthdate and I tell you the exact second when your mother’s aunt will have her next shit.
SANNYASISM ——— The shit of my master tastes better then yours.
YOGISM ————- Press your ass and keep it inside.
VIPASSANAISM ——- Watch that shit…passing your body…as it naturally flows….
“ASTROLOGISM ——– Tell me your birthdate and I tell you the exact second when your mother’s aunt will have her next shit.”
LMAO.
Sayings of the Jewish Buddha, submitted by Mark:
If there is no self, whose arthritis is this?
Be here now. Be someplace else later. Is that so complicated?
Drink tea and nourish life; with the first sip, joy; with the second sip, satisfaction; with the third sip, peace; with the fourth, a Danish.
Wherever you go, there you are. Your luggage is another story.
Accept misfortune as a blessing. Do not wish for perfect health, or a life without problems. What would you talk about?
The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single Oy.
There is no escaping karma. In a previous life, you never called, you never wrote, you never visited. And whose fault was that?
Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.
The Tao does not speak. The Tao does not blame. The Tao does not take sides. The Tao has no expectations. The Tao demands nothing of others. The Tao is not Jewish.
Breathe in. Breathe out. Breathe in. Breathe out. Forget this and attaining Enlightenment will be the least of your problems.
Let your mind be as a floating cloud. Let your stillness be as a wooded glen. And sit up straight. You’ll never meet the Buddha with such rounded shoulders.
Deep inside you are ten thousand flowers. Each flower blossoms ten thousand times. Each blossom has ten thousand petals. You might want to see a specialist.
Be aware of your body. Be aware of your perceptions. Keep in mind that not every physical sensation is a symptom of a terminal illness.
Thanx, SS, nice.
LOKESHISM…Who gives a shit?
Well, seems everything boils down to shit!
To me, all shit is an illusion until it hits my own fan!
That is Kavitaism.
OFI is drowning master´s creation in a pond of shit. Shantam is putting himself in the shit for the rescue misson.
Ok, if you say so!
SS, isn’t Taoism & Laotseism the same? If so, then how come:
TAOISM ————- Shit Happens.
&
LAOTSEISM ———- The shit that can be described is not the absolute shit?
Does it mean shit happens but shit that can be described is not the absolute shit?
Don’t sweat the big shit, it will take care of itself.
Thank you for pointing that out, I tend to go overboard at times
Someone once told me that Osho had once said that “ninety-nine per cent of my words are just bull-shit, and only one per cent is important”, and I believed him.
But, as Laotzu states, “the shit that can be described is not the Absolute shit”.
Aaaaah yes, Swamishanti, Laotze…
But I´d like to mention also what our good old friend, Sigmund Freud, described about the harsh and sometimes very fatal consequences if people don´t surpass the ´Anal Age´ in a sane way.
If they don´t pass it they either tend to shit on anything, without ever really digesting the food given – or they don´t know how to shit at all and develop all kind of symptoms of everything in between. Worth to meditate on it. As this issue became kind of a ´shit-exploration´ – it just happened, didn’t it?
Madhu – sleepless in Munich
Whilst on paper the world of awareness looks very similar, that even on websites one may be forgiven for thinking many people are only wanting to share themselves in the expression of a camaraderie-type joy, or even care-free, disinvested mutual awareness.
In this imperfect world, awareness itself (unless you are having an aware orgasm) is and probably always has been an utterly self-absorbed modality, like dying has to be…(at least, that’s the defensive mechanism religious anti-dependents put out in their attempts to make you dependent on them – in your – but not their – ahemm, allllonnessssss)…By keeping oneself company on a long evening, thus allowing many otherwise hearthless idiots to enter into areas of what were once known as mutual masturbation societies, with entrances in alleyways off the main street.
Over time, these became confessionals, churches and lately in the 20th and 21st century they became oases of crap music evenings interspersed with diva type action, with a whole load of presumption going on, in looks, hugs, mms and ohh, have you seen my growth recently? Understandable. People are fragile.
This would apply to the conscious-raising activity of people who wouldn’t know how to take a dog for a walk, whether they are Gurdjieffians, Oshoans, Vegans or Lidlers. Trust is nothing to do with others. At all.
There are people whom you have zero interest in ever assessing their consciousness with or yours because it’s all good; and there are people who would love to master bait with you. I wouldn’t touch the second lot with the proverbial bargepole. And I don’t need their ‘action man’ games either, whatever flag or group they want to pretend they belong to.
I’ll take being alive for a short while…as time rolls bye…it’s less trouble and more empathic and a spade remains a spade.
I’ve never wanted anyone else to be more love or less love. Honesty is plenty good enough
Love as you are is also plenty, warts an’ all. In fact, it’s too much already, which is why I’m personally always wanting to use the day well, because then it’s gone. And it’s count-down time, if only we knew it.
Sometimes that works. Sometimes it’s not enough…because sometimes evil people are vile. The last few days in Paris reminds me of that.
Let me repeat, may all religious groupies stick a bargepole up their arse.
Love is your heritage – you either have it or you don’t. Don’t believe anyone who tells you you are a beggar or that love looks and sounds a certain way.
Like Rik Mayall said, “no-one is superior to you” – neither today or tomorrow or ever. You don’t need anyone to tell you that, of course…but just by the way, casual like, like a glance. Not a full evening of sincerity with a spoon sitting with a finger up the arse…or whatever…with corporate behaviour patterns.
Enough.
Today I saw a sweat-shirt with the logo…
Inspire Someone.
If you would walk just a couple of days in my moccasins, here, where I am living, Prem Martyn, and as a woman too, and alone, your fiery speech, “and there are people who would love to master bait with you. I wouldn’t touch the second lot with the proverbial bargepole. And I don’t need their ‘action man’ games either, whatever flag or group they want to pretend they belong to”, would be realistically more down to earth. More complete.
And otherwise, there is no doubt about it that, like pretty much always, I am impressed by covering issues, the way you tend to do. Still Mallorca? Or Switzerland? Or Slovakia?
Anyway, I scream in pain about what´s happening in Munich for years to go, more so the last days after the Paris Terror attack, and I have to cope with it.
In my moccasins. Alone.
And spare me, if you can, your also ever available contempt.
Madhu
Madhu,
It’s my form of anti-contempt. If I may be so bold, the contempt itself is always institutional, that is its very definition: learnt, rote effetism, bland, ineffectual, self-congratulatory, pointless, passionless. And when challenged prefers sabotage to transparency. This has happened, does happen, it’s not rocket science – in relationship, in society, amongst religionists and whether sociopaths or benignly arrogant emotive saboteurs.
Transparency is key. Therefore elicit contempt; don’t spare it or waste it on those who have no interest in actual connecting…unconditionally.
Trust yourself.
Cheers.
Okay so far, thanks, Prem Martyn. Will take your response with me inside;
the need, ever fresh, to find my own answer to ongoing inconveniences, the least to say.
See you later? Who knows?
Madhu
“In essence, although Osho borrowed a lot from Gurdjieff’s Work and integrated it into his own, a lot of what Sannyas is about lies in a completely different internal direction from that of Gurdjieff’s work.”
And now I am wondering what direction could that be!
You are not the only one wondering about that, Kavita.
I am glad I came across such wondering kind, including yourself, & that wondering touched me in a non-touching way!
Shantam declares, “What I am saying time and again is that when the root of a tree gets corrupted, branches cannot exist green for long time.”
Deep. Who else but Shantam could have figured this out? I had no idea his gardening acumen is so extensive.
The wise one concludes, “We all know Osho meditations are far superior and finer in their effect.”
We? Count me out of this absolutely stupid assumption from a man who, to all intents and purposes, is not much of a meditator himself.
Shantam and Lokesh are the Dumb and Dumber of sannyasnews. Unintentional slapstick humour.
Only Lokesh is much dumber than Shantam. Much, much dumber. Because it seems to me Shantam is simply expressing his views and Lokesh is constantly picking on him.
Does your life have any meaning if you don’t pick on Shantam?
What you are doing appears much dumber than any ‘unmeditative’ things Shantam is saying.
Prem, aren’t you the dumbest for making such a statement?!
Prem, whosoever,
There is enough space for meditative expressions too at sannyasnews. No need for anyone to suffer dumb and dumber prose from others. Please bring the wisdom out here instead of hoping for the day when you can sell that in groups and seminars.
Prem, it is a threesome: Lokesh, Satyadeva and Shantam. And we really enjoy it. It is fun! Dumb? So what! What is the problem?
So, leave them alone!
(MOD: NOT TO FORGET Arpana, Frank AND Anand Yogi!)
And you might be interested in a collection of some of the best arguments ever aired on SN over the last year, Prem:
A bestseller for sure.
Prem, as one believes so the world will appear. So, where does that leave you?
*If you think others are not meditative then you are like a belly who throws out everything in bout of diarrhea.
* If you think others are not meditative enough then you are like a pot who has hole in the bottom.
* If you think others are not meditative enough then your eyesight is of the person who is colour- blind.
* If you think others are not meditative enough then your being is suffering from Inner Premature ejaculation.
P.S:
Dedicated to my friend Lokesh for his valuable inspiration.
The full interview by Jivan can be read here: http://www.oshonews.com/2011/01/gurdjieff-movements-jivan/
The thing about Gurdjieff’s teaching is that it is in many ways incomplete…take the best and forget the rest applies to Mr G as it does for most teachers, because there nearly always is a rest that is of little or no value other than to see that you do not need it in your life.
The first people who proclaimed to ‘do Gurdijeff work´, I happened to meet in Germany some forty years ago and felt them mostly as people being attracted to live out cruelty in interpersonal affairs. At that time I have been more repelled than attracted.
Experiencing the ancient kind of documentary movie then changed a lot for me as I was in kind of awe about the very solitary Being of this Master who had at his time a small gathering and a famous and also controversial (not only) French school. Also I began to read more.
The Human behind all these stories and history is hardly to be comprehended (like it always is). To come into contact with the Gurdijeff ´Movements´ showed me my disintegration stronger than any other meditation, so it was and is really a symptom ´cracker´ (exposer) which hinders me to be available in the present moment.
Yet – up to now and frankly, as I know Amyio and (Hungarian) Chetan offering it – I have not been able to join this dance amongst all the numerous other dances in the name of ´truth´. But I am in deep respect for people who face this special kind of pressure-cooker challenge to body-mind-soul.
More so one may be able to say that almost always something of the human-kind-spiritual gifts survive in a transformed state over ´Time´?
In spite of my mind and also sometimes apparently despite my mental-emotional and also bodily constitution, there is still something unnameable in me, which keeps me being attracted like a moth to a flame.
To keep going on responding here, in spite of back-before-and-underground views about information tools, techniques and characters of onlookers with other intention structure than mine seems to belong into the same category: ´moth and flame´.
Although it is virtual here it is not so virtual too. As anybody knows, I guess.
Soon the dawn will arise here; the traffic starts into the rush hour.
Bread, butter, milk is delivered, later other luxury stuff. Then the house building industry will pass by. Then the buses will carry the children to school.
And on and on it goes…
Yesterday, the tobacco-selling lady here said to me, “Please don’t be in the way of all these hard-working men.” That was a new (old) tone. Very German, in a way.
I am very happy to have been able to meet other kinds of people throughout my lifetime and I just like to cherish (refresh) some of these memories. The luxury of what you, Lokesh, may call amongst other topics ´Mr. G. stories’ also belongs to these cherished memories.
Sheer Luxury, isn´t it?
Madhu
Interesting post from Madhu.
How old are you, Madhu?
The way I have read from your posts, you were present in all the phases of Osho´s work, whether in India or America.
Can you shed some light on your personal biography?
“How old are you, Madhu?”
Shantam Prem,
I am old or young enough to tell you that if one loses the inner ´telephone-connection’ to one´s own heart and to the HEART in hearts one is in a pretty bad state and eyes and ears don´t function in a way that´s good for oneself as good for others.
(My body age is approximately 12 years older than yours).
And yes, your estimation is right, concerning the phases, you mention, although I have not been in permanence there and above all, quit Ashram visits outside Germany in the nineties.
Otherwise, I am sorry to say that your questions show that you are not that much into reading posts shared, at least the last two years; I can talk about in this context by own experience of exchange.
However, you are not the only miser this way, just more easy to recognize.
Madhu
So, Madhu, your body age is 64. Not much in this age when average life span is touching 90.
When Osho left the body you were only 39, one can say in the prime of your youth.
I have not seen your face anywhere but once I see, it won´t be impossible to remember your walks on the Ashram streets.
More or less, i read each and every post of everyone; thoroughly or casually depends upon the contents. So be sure, i know you are living a solitary life, and during last two years you have never mentioned about your marriage(s), divorce etc., though one can imagine like many bubble women of that era, you too had series of affairs.
“Sometime the other broke my heart, sometime I broke the emotions of others and in this way, we gathered immense life experiences.”
So…Shantam Prem,
Wrong guesses on both our sides; you can add almost 4 years more, I can subtract almost 4 years, and what that all has to do with essentials, I don´t know…but just in case you ask your astrology books….
Madhu
It is not about years anyway but to touch the mundane essentials is equally important.
During most of my Pune years I was very curious about the astrology of the Osho seekers.
There must be some common point which was taking us away from careers and professions into the world of monks and nuns of 20th century. Other than openness for emotional and physical side of love; thousands of people have lived for years with possessions packed in one suitcase and a handbag.
Astrologically speaking, most of long-term disciples have active 11th/12th house and personal planets in certain kind of bindings with Uranus/Neptune.
As time has shown, neither master nor disciples had solid ground underneath their feet!
The planet Saturn, the great taskmaster, is the ruthless god who does not hesitate to make holes in Noah´s Ark, if Uranus and Neptune boast too much about New Ship made with the New Stuff!
Lokesh, I thought Yılmaz Erdoğan resembles Gurdjieff, thanx.
http://www.people.com/article/husband-paris-attack-victim-letter
Merci, infiniment, merci..