The Ranch’s Medical Director

SN Notes on Ma Anand Puja

(Sheela’s right hand woman)

Was born in Manila in 1947 as Diane Ivonne Onang, and grew up in California. She became a registered nurse in California in 1976 and trained at the LA County Hospital. In the years following her certification, Puja claims to have worked in clinics around Asia including the Philippines and Indonesia from 1977-1979, but in other interviews she claims to have been the director of Kern Country Medical Centre for several years during the same period. Whatever the case, she was in India in 1979 where she came into contact with sannyasins and the Pune one ashram.  After becoming a sannyasin,  astonishingly quick,  she became Director of the Rajneesh Health Centre in 1980,  until she fled with Sheela from Rajneeshpuram in September, 1985.

Puja was one of the inner circle around Sheela on the Ranch between 1982 to 1985.   Arguably she held a great deal of power,  including full control over all medical facilities.   Puja was feared and disliked by many in Rajneeshpuram, who later described her as a tyrant and compared her to Nazi concentration camp doctor, Josef Mengele.   Her one close contact was Sheela. For some reason this close contact between the two women has been lost in relevant biographies, and histories of the Ranch, but it is very important in any seasoned analysis.

One sannyasin recalled that Puja “delighted in death, poisons, and the idea of carrying out various plots.”
Puja was able to legally order the bacteria and equipment she needed to poison the 10 restaurants in  the town of the Dalles,  as legitimate medical supplies for the clinic/laboratory she managed on the Ranch.

Unknown

Sheela and Puja in chains (Puja left)

In addition to the salmonella used in the plot against the ten restaurants in the Dalles, Puja acquired a number of other more serious agents including Fransicella tularensis which could have caused a significant death toll if disseminated. These agents, and other equipment like a lyophilizer, were not necessary for RMC’s work as a diagnostic laboratory, but could, it is argued,  have had possible biological weapons use.

Sheela and Puja were arrested in West Germany on October 28, 1985.  They were extradited to the United States, reaching Portland on February 6, 1986. They were charged with attempting to murder Amrito,  Osho’s personal physician, first-degree assault for poisoning Judge William Hulse, second-degree assault for poisoning The Dalles Commissioner Raymond Matthews, and product tampering for the poisonings in The Dalles, as well as wiretapping and immigration offenses.

On July 22, 1986, both women entered Alford pleas for the salmonella poisoning and the other charges, and received sentences ranging from three to twenty years, to be served concurrently.  Both Sheela and Puja were released on parole early for good behaviour, after serving twenty-nine months of their sentences in a minimum-security federal prison.

It has been argued by some commentators that Sheela was always under the direction of Osho. We would say it is self-evident that she was actually under the control and influence of Puja.

Any SN reader know of Puja’s whereabouts now,  or what she is up to if still alive?

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84 Responses to The Ranch’s Medical Director

  1. simond says:

    Why is it self-evident that “she (Sheela) was actually under the control and influence of Puja?”
    Have I missed something?

    • dharmen says:

      I agree it is not self-evident at all; seems to me, such speculation depends on your viewpoint: mine sees it the other way round. But with a clear lack of evidence or corroboration from someone else, I think both really are, just speculation.

    • Parmartha says:

      The evidence I would quote are the transcipts of the trials, which were first published 25 years after the event. If you read them all, which is quite a task, then it sort of becomes self-evident. But very few people seem to have read them. The most telling I read was the testimony of the person knwn by some as the Secretary’s Secretary, Ava.
      Transcipts at
      https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/73830-01-ava-avalos-fbi-statement.html#document/p14/a14390

      In the Ava testimony she speifically says that Sheela and her cabal were extremely keen to make sure there were no leaks, and that Osho should never get to know of their strange games. These testimonies were given on oath.

      I think that it is important whatsoever to have at least an open mind about what went down. The speculations around Osho’s involvement have no evidence as far as I can see.
      Whether Puja influenced Sheela, or the other way round, well, maybe they were a sort of team. Certainly, Sheela could not have done almost all those things designated as crimes without Puja, or in my view devised them.

      The FBI took away loads of taped conversations from the Ranch between Osho and Sheela, and also Savita, etc. and must still have them. Had there been anything incriminating Osho, they would certainly have used them rather than simply prosecuting Sheela, Savita, Puja et al.

      • dharmen says:

        The transcript you link to makes pretty grim reading and just seems to validate the old adage of power corrupting absolutely. Some of this stuff must match the covert operations of nation states! Incredible! Some of the players a few years before, were probably, skipping around Buddha Hall singing Sufi songs!

        • Parmartha says:

          What also surprises me is that at the same time as all this was going down many sannyasins were also skipping around doing groups, meditaions, etc. which rightly, I think, if done properly inoculate against fascism.

          Also, at the same time, people like myself were fully engaged as commune members in devoted work, sustaining everything that had to be sustained to keep Osho’s presence on the planet very fully in the eye.

          Had someone interviewed me on Sept 14th, 1985 I would have had no idea anything like this was going down, and I think it fair to say that applied to at least 95 per cent of commune members. The next day, Sheela left and the following day we all began to hear of her and her cohort’s crimes.

          Some say we should have known, but for the life of me I can’t see how. The transcipts show how tight and controlled the conspiracy was.

  2. Amrito says:

    Isn’t it strange Puja and Sheela were released after 29 months in a ‘minimum security’ prison facility? It seems like they had one hell of a deal cut out to them by the feds to bring Rajneeshpuram down. This “bio- terrorism attack” still reeks on news media outlets staining Osho’s name.

    Osho has mentioned once that Ma Laxmi had been approached by the CIA to become an informant in Rajneeshpuram, and even offered her Sheela’s position. This indicates the feds had quite a bit of influence within Rajneeshpuram a while before it self-combusted.

    • frank says:

      Sheela as a double-agent trying to play all sides, a kind of ‘Homeland’ for enlightenment seekers?
      It`s possible.

      Btw, execrable as the ‘Rajneeshee’ bio-terror attack was, it was not “the first on American soil”. If you check your history you will find that the Yanks and the Spanish handed out smallpox and other disease-infected blankets to native peoples on a regular basis with horrendous and genocidal consequences.

    • Parmartha says:

      This examination above of Puja’s character, history and interests show to me that all this strange stuff re poisoning was hatched in the very close relationship between Sheela and Puja, and that Puja was the ‘man’ in the relationship, and conceived the plots and how to accomplish them.

      Why they both went to the same prison for the same amount of time, and as far as indicated in the research material, left together, does seem somewhat strange.

      And as Amrito says, the time they actually served does seem really small compared with the twenty year tariff on some of their crimes.

  3. shantam prem says:

    Parmartha,
    Tell one thing:
    Can you be objective in analysing the events of Rajneeshpuram?
    Surely, as a disciple you have to be like defence attorney and put the blame on the usual characters and redeem the others.

    • Parmartha says:

      Osho welcomed everybody to disciplehood. That doesn’t mean they were, through thick and thin, disciples. I would say 50 percent of people were not there for Osho or spiritual growth even, but all sorts of other agendas. Many were there for the society of the commune, and not for Osho. Many others were there to exercise the power they never had outside the communes. Osho simply decided to accept everybody. It proved a major risk, and certainly differed, for example, from Sufi masters.

      I come from a family of detectives, from some time back, Shantam. In that sense, one is always objective. There is quite a lot of evidence to plough through – and it seems to me very few have ploughed through it in the small hours – which was published 25 years after the events, the transcipts of the trials, etc.
      Ava’s for example at:
      https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/73830-01-ava-avalos-fbi-statement.html#document/p14/a14390

      I myself after such a read put the blame on the Sheela/Puja cabal. The only moot point is the fact that Osho himself seemed so switched off to the Jesus Grove people and what they were up to. In ordinary terms, he took ‘delegation’ of responsibility much too far.

  4. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    I loved what Krishna Prem gave as an offer and for practising, as the Buddhists say, I also loved, what Unmani, whom I never saw or experienced, contributed as a sharing.

    But I have to say, I do have to digest much discomfort with groping in the past the way it is done here, every now and then, on quite a regular basis. Like a yo-yo.

    That a lot of advocate deals were made at the time spoken of is not in question, as well as it is clear that such deals are totally untransparent for most of us, like any deals of lawyers at any time are, to cope with an unbearable situation.

    Peace though, is ever within, and that´s what Meditation is all about, I feel.

    And quite an individual affair, to open up for it.

    Madhu

    (MOD: THIS IS AN EDITED POST)

  5. Parmartha says:

    For the record, some have accused me of being one of those who consider Osho totally blameless in all this stuff.

    I don’t consider him guilty (like some others, of instigating crimes, etc.). Also, as soon as he realised that something was going down late in 1984 he began to speak, and this immediately undermined the power of the Sheela/Puja gang.

    Nonetheless, before that, it does seem he was living in his own world in Lao Tzu, in quite a big way. A sort of nitrous haze. This created a power vacuum which the Jesus Grove people were very happy to fill.

    Also, there does seem to be some evidence that he himself did not much care for the commune, or for its situation in America, and switched off from much awareness of even being on American soil.
    This allowed Sheela et al to assume more or less total power for some three years.

  6. Parmartha says:

    Alford pleas of guilty are among some of the most paradoxical in the American legal system:
    Someone admits there is clear evidence of guilt that will convict them, but says they are innocent…

    I see that The U.S. Attorneys’ Manual states that in the federal system, Alford pleas “should be avoided except in the most unusual circumstances, even if no plea agreement is involved and the plea would cover all pending charges.” U.S. Attorneys are required to obtain the approval of the Assistant Attorney General with supervisory responsibility over the subject matter before accepting such a plea.

    So allowance of such a plea from Puja and Sheela would have been approved at a very high level; one wonders, with Amrito (the one writing here), as to why?

  7. Lokesh says:

    Some more sulphurous-smelling muck dredged up from the bottomless depths of that endless resource of scandal and intrigue, the Ranch. I daresay it provides a platform for comment, albeit a little threadbare after all these years.

    Personally, I find the topic somewhat uninspirational and covered previously by various threads on this site. None of it holds a strong element of fascination for me. It is all so far away from what Osho was really originally about and I have already said my bit about such matters in the past.

    In essence, it all boils down to how aware was Osho in regards these shenanigans? That is quite an important question in many respects. The answer is, we will never really know. I am cool with that, because the Osho I knew was a transformative energy phenomenon, not a personality.

    Somehow, many seem to believe that being enlightened means the death of personality, when the truth of it has more to do with death of attachment to personality. Osho was not a saint and his personality would appear to have been rather unholy on certain levels; some might even go so far as to say that he could at times behave in an almost diabolical way.

    I suspect he was aware of this but felt unattached to it. If he was unattached to his personality’s behaviour patterns how come people get so attached to them? Because they are attached to their personality and therefore cannot comprehend an inner state of non-attachment. Nothing is as it appears.

    The lotus may well grow out of the mud. Going by the above article there is no shortage of mud. My question is, where are the lotuses?

    • satyadeva says:

      “If he was unattached to his personality’s behaviour patterns how come people get so attached to them? Because they are attached to their personality and therefore cannot comprehend an inner state of non-attachment. Nothing is as it appears.”

      I think you’ve nailed it, Lokesh.

    • shantam prem says:

      Lokesh has added some spice to the stale soup.

      • frank says:

        Pikey Pete was up court in Scunthorpe on a charge of GBH. In his defence he addressed the judge:
        “What ye don’t understand, yer onnerr, is that I`m totally unattached to me personality’s behaviour pattern dues to the fact that I wuz dronk as a judge at the time…”

        “The correct expression is drunk as a lord, my man,” interrupted the judge.

        “Oh right,sorry me lord. Now, if ye don`t mind me sayin’ so, ye don`t seem to be comprehendin’ an inner state of unattachment which is probably cos you’re attached to yer own personality, like. And yer coming across as rather judgmental, too…so if ye don`t mind, I`d like an unconditional discharge an’ a bit of unconditional love, too.”

        • frank says:

          After he did his time, Pikey Pete went to India.

          I met him years later in a chai shop on the hippy trail. He was wearing flowing orange robes,had a couple of wild-looking chicks with him, which is something that he never managed in Scunny, or even Grimsby for that matter.

          He had met some godman, who had given him a new name: Swami Pikananda.
          “I am God” he informed me in his unforgettable accent.
          “You are God, too,” he continued.
          “The only difference is that I know that I am God and you don`t know that you are God.
          That`s because you`re still attached to your personality`s behaviour pattern. I`m well beyond that.
          If you accept me as God, then you accept the God in yourself.
          If you deny that I am God, then you are denying the God in yourself.
          I accept myself as I am
          You don’t accept yourself as you are.
          It might be difficult for you to accept yourself as you are, so until you can disidentify from your personality pattern your path will be to accept me as I am.
          Oh, and we`re moving on today, could you just settle up the bill with the manager and thanks for that half-kilo, I`ll send you the money for it just as soon as my money comes through.
          Taraa, Bom Shankar and Yahoo….”

        • Lokesh says:

          Pikey Pete is labouring under a misconception. Unconditional love is conditional in that it must be unconditional.

    • Tan says:

      Lokesh, are you taking the piss again?

      • Prem Martyn says:

        Tan,

        Please stop discussing your ancient tantric secrets online.

      • Prem Martyn says:

        Tan.

        Frank is…Lokesh isn’t.

        Frank is apparently flushed with himself and floats his own boat, not getting off the blog here because its publicly convenient for him to remain occupied and relieved with being disengaged by apparently standing up for the idea of taking a back seat.

        Much piss-taking follows.

        Lokesh this time reveals how to closet yourself inwards by ruminating on Osho’s energy and whether ‘you’re in’ – thus acknowledging the core of life as a fountain of energy too. An act of birth and death at the same time.

        The two approaches have differing outcomes though both can leave you feeling ‘in the pink’ in different ways.

        I cannot write more here as I have run out of paper.

      • Lokesh says:

        That is something better left to the Moraji Desais of this world. I take coffee.

  8. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Glad, that you came out with this, Lokesh:
    “Somehow many seem to believe that being enlightened means the death of personality, when the truth of it has more to do with death of attachment to personality.”…

    And you´re asking:
    “My question is, where are the lotuses?”

    Right next door, maybe. Probably. As a potential.

    And for me, that was what His presence and Sharing was all about.

    Love,

    Madhu

  9. shantam prem says:

    When millions of people will touch the state of enlightenment in some not so distinct future, legal and constitutional experts will have the task cut for them.

    These rules and sections don´t apply to the people with 100% awareness.

    Psychologist’s opinion will be sought, as in the case of abnormal deviations!

  10. shantam prem says:

    This photo feature article is cool.
    It reminds of Rajneeshpuram; the settlement of seekers in a funny way.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3043400/Inside-largest-Buddhist-settlement-world.html

  11. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    What a nice joke you found, Frank, like a small version of the Gourishankar meditation – light shots in intervals – not convenient for everybody though.

    Be compassionate, will you?

    Madhu

  12. samarpan says:

    Parmartha: “Also, as soon as he realised that something was going down late in 1984 he began to speak…”

    Someone involved in a criminal conspiracy usually does not call law enforcement agencies and invite an investigation. Osho, not being involved in sannyasin criminal activity, had nothing to fear. Osho was surprised that sannyasins had bugged his room.

  13. Parmartha says:

    Nothing I disagree with here, Samarpan.

    I have said in several places in the past that the fact Osho’s room was bugged was conclusive for me in terms of who were the criminals, and also that Osho did not know of the conspiracies of the Sheela/Puja gang activities. I continue to be suprised, especially after the publishing of the transcipts alluded to above, that there are any doubts about this.

    However, I am sympathetic to the argument that the organisation around Osho was ultimately ‘his’, as he started it, and seemed to want it in the way it developed. He did not want some non-organisation, like Krishnamurti or even Barry Long.

    Given that, and as he himself said in one famous lecture I attended shortly after Sheela left, he was in the last analysis, “Responsible”.

    • frank says:

      The last time I saw Pikananda was in Amsterdam`s red-light area. He was in a coffee shop dressed in leathers from head to toe, hair dyed black, face craggy as Iggy Pop, with a beautiful oriental girl on his arm.

      I asked him: “Man, what about all those girls’ hearts you broke, all the guys’ money you never paid back – and hey, where`s my half kilo?”

      He looked at me, took a long drag on a sputnik-laden doobie, and holding a straighter straight face than a poker champion, said:
      “I take full responsibility”

  14. shantam prem says:

    Parmartha: “Also, as soon as he realised that something was going down late in 1984 he began to speak…”

    And who was reading the questions?

    Quite often, Truth does not follow the cultist lines. Truth is neither patriot nor anti-national. Truth is quite often in the middle, emotionlessly in the middle.

    • satyadeva says:

      “Truth is quite often in the middle, emotionlessly in the middle.”

      I suggest, Shantam, you copy that onto several pieces of paper, put them up in prominent places in your home, especially visible when you’re at the computer, and carry one around with you at all times.

      If you really were to absorb that statement it would transform the quality of your posts here – and perhaps even your entire life.

      But I expect you’ll just go blundering on, fine ideas in one very small part of your brain, emotion-saturated bullshine dominating the major regions.

      (P.S: Don’t worry, you’re in the majority of the human race, present company included).

    • Parmartha says:

      Not sure of your drift, Shantam.
      It did not matter who was asking the questions, it was the answers that counted. For example, on one occasion during the period November, 1984 to June, 1985, when he mentioned fascism in relation to what was going on at the Ranch, Sheela had the tape of that lecture conveniently “lost”, and lost to all posterity. That strikes me as something of a crime.

      My experience was that as soon as Osho started speaking again, the cabal panicked in a big way. Sheela herself was rarely at the Ranch from then on, and was travelling around communes in Europe, Australia, etc. where she could still be the Queen bee.

  15. shantam prem says:

    Satyadeva, when you are so wise why don´t you write something original, something which mirrors your being?

    Come out from the security blanket of uninvited psychoanalysis and contribute something worthwhile.

    A man efficient in pickpocketing was complaining, “I have spent so many years in refining my art. People are so stupid nowadays they don´t carry the cash. Just some coins and a credit card.”

    • satyadeva says:

      Well, you can lead a dog to water, but you can not make it drink – the truth of the old saying is clearly demonstrated whenever anyone attempts to give you, Shantam, honest feedback.

      You really are a hopeless case, because apparently you have absolutely zero capacity for anything but the most primitive self-reflection. And less than zero interest in developing that capacity.

      In defending yourself against what you so foolishly term ‘psychoanalysis’ you’re like some throwback to a bygone age, a typical product of the psycho-social mores of a backward religion (in your case, Sikhism).

      In UK terms, you’d qualify as a typical, backward-looking, conservative Daily Mail reader, ‘philistine’ to the core, all too eager to defend yourself against anything that might threaten to upset your little personal comfort zone.

      Apart from all that, the joke is that you haven’t noticed or understood the last paragraph of my earlier post. So read it now, before you make an even greater fool of yourself.

  16. sannyasnews says:

    Someone called Prem Avinashi sent SN this:

    Ranch was Device of Osho.

    An enlightened master like Osho can use any situation whatsoever for his advantage and as a device for the growth of his disciples.That is what Osho did in Rajneeshpuram, Oregon.

    As per my understanding after 40 years of exhaustive and repeated Hindi/English Osho books reading, listening to his Hindi/English discourses, personal meditation experiences and in his presence some unbelievable experiences of his amazing esoteric powers.

    I want to share my understanding, especially to Osho lovers all around the world who had the same experiences as I had, because I know that most of the SN readers are not going to appreciate this, which is natural and sincere on their part.

    Osho was well aware of everything whatsoever was happening around him to the minutest detail, it is really a child’s play for the master like Osho.

    On our unconscious actions he did not interfere directly. He exposed everybody’s growth or unconsciousness. All our crimes, violence, illegal acts, Rolls Royces, sex freedom was used by him as a boon so that the whole world media (which is only interested in violence, sex scandals, sensationalism) gave unprecedented attention to him and unknowingly to his message. All the man made laws or illegalities does’nt matter at all, what matters is the matter he produced out of the situation.

    If we all would have behaved meditatively and everything would have been smooth and successful then too he was able to use that situation to the advantage of all. There is no situation that a master like Osho cannot use for positive results. That is what he was doing from the very beginning where ever he was.

    By: Swami Prem Avinashi

    • Lokesh says:

      I know a number of Avinashis and suspect this is the one who was dropped on his head as an infant. If not, it might be the one who did a frontal labotomy on himself with a Black & Decker drill. Possibly, it is the one who did too much acid and was rejected by the Hare Krishnas and then was accepted into the Sannyas herd by way of a postal application. A la this will be your new name, it means indestructible love, because your love is made of reinforced concrete.

      The indestructible lover says, “As per my understanding after 40 years of exhaustive and repeated Hindi/English Osho books reading, listening to his Hindi/English discourses, personal meditation experiences and in his presence some unbelievable experiences of his amazing esoteric powers.”

      Golly, those are some really heavy-duty credentials…impressive! Which leaves one wondering how they left the man so utterly stupid. Must have been either the brain damage as an infant, the hole in his head or being rejected by the Hare Krishnas, which, as one can easily imagine, must have been a very traumatic experience.

  17. Parmartha says:

    Avinashi,
    You share this view with a number of other commentators. However, clearly Osho himself stated that he did not know everything that was going on around him. For example, that his room was bugged!

    Like others, you seem to want Osho to be not only illumined, but beyond human. A silly business indeed, and something from the past consciousness of man. Treating someone as omnipresent, omni-whatever, and even more so, someone who never makes mistakes is a need that arise from your own feelings of frailty:
    “Ah, thank God there is someone like Osho who is free of the human condition…and not like me at all.”

    How can you ever become mature with those sort of beliefs?

      • sannyasnews says:

        For those who dont know the Latin: a phrase of Tertullian (who was at first a lawyer before becoming a Christian author), meaning ‘I believe because it is absurd’.

        In a religious context, the Resurrection of Christ might be seen as meeting that criteria!

        How about a bit of Sanskrit, Frank, for our Indian diaspora…?

        • frank says:

          Unfortunately my knowledge of Sanskrit is quite limited – a small smattering of rhyming slang… shiva shanker and stuff like that.

        • shantam prem says:

          Credo quia absurdum. Something like this does not exist in any of the Indian languages.

          We are basically a culture of believers. Howsoever Osho tried to raise the level of thinking and beyond, He has become one of the Avataras now.

          A kind of omnipresent butler who knows, Swami ji wants one and half teaspoons of sugar in bed tea!

          • satyadeva says:

            “We are basically a culture of believers.”

            And unfortunately, belief is for fools – isn’t it?

            Take a look at the ‘established’, State-supported (exoteric) religions, and at their terrorist versions: I mean, what utter baloney – and what world-shattering hatred, what fascistic violence, the very quintessence of ‘evil’.

            What a state – or State – to be in, eh?!

            In a way, this links with another topic, with the sort of beliefs Avinashi expounded earlier as ‘personal experience’, but that, as Parmartha pointed out, are merely a product of wish-fulfilment, in that they happen to suit his particular personal mental ‘requirements’, and as such, clearly driven by personal emotional need.

            I mean, come on, what’s the point of all that meditation – we’re not that stupid, surely?

            And Shantam, where exactly did you say the truth exists?

            • shantam prem says:

              Truth has no fixed address. It changes, the way we change, the way cosmos changes.
              But for a spiritual seeker Truth is a mixture of facts and fictions, sentiments and intellect, belief and doubt.

              One needs to be aware not to use toothpick stick for ears!

              • satyadeva says:

                Well, Shantam, there’s ‘relative truth’ and what we’re informed by the masters is ‘absolute truth’.

                And for you to say, “But for a spiritual seeker Truth is a mixture of facts and fictions, sentiments and intellect, belief and doubt” indicates that you hopelessly confuse the two. Which is hardly surprising, given the evidence of hundreds of your SN posts over the years.

                Despite your years with Osho, your statement is so typically mainstream ultra-conventional Indian religious hogwash that one wonders what you’ve been up to all these years. Too much sex on the brain, perhaps? It can make you psycho-spiritually blind, y’know….

                • shantam prem says:

                  It means I am not a bastard, if my statement is so “typically mainstream ultra-conventional Indian religious hogwash” that one wonders.

                  I will die thousand deaths than to learn spirituality from western dodos, the contaminated Ego bags like you.

                  (Except Christianity: I love their clean energy and glorious civilisation).

                • satyadeva says:

                  There, it’s spelt out, as clear as daylight:
                  Blissfully unaware that his very own master recommended the ‘death’ of these pseudo-spiritual dinosaurs that, far from being responsible for creating a “glorious civilisation”, have in fact imprisoned the brains and lives of countless millions over millennia, you, Shantam, actually accord them supreme value – you even think they’re worth preserving!

                  Enslaved by your own backward-looking, sentimentalist conservatism (while masquerading as some sort of ‘radical’!), you, a basically utterly conventional mediocrity, for whom ‘going inside’ is only a synonym for sex, even confidently demand the Sannyas movement be cast in similar ‘religious institution’ mould.

                  Thus a great master’s work is threatened to be undermined by fools who are too blind to see the wood for the trees.

                  Still, at least you don’t lack company in this respect, Shantam, as over the ages there have been countless other well-meaning ignoramuses that have done their bit to screw up humanity.

                  You’re never alone with stupidity, it would seem….

            • frank says:

              I don`t think that credo quia absurdum is just about believing.

              If believing was like sport then credo quia absurdum would be like an extreme sport – unapologetic in its craziness- like assboarding.

              The sheer nuttiness of it gives the extreme believer a great buzz.

              Plus it`s an unassailable position that no kind of orthodox thinking will ever be able to challenge on its own terms. It gives an unchallengable identity.

              Avinashi doesn`t berate those on SN who don`t understand, like a regular fanatic would. He welcomes it. It is validating for him: “My craziness is beyond anything that could possibly invalidate it.”

              It`s quite an ultra-cool place in an odd sort of way. No one can touch you.

                • frank says:

                  The Bible has got some fascinating stuff in it:

                  12. Deut. 25:11

                  When two men are fighting and the wife of one of them intervenes to drag her husband clear of his opponent, if she puts out her hand and catches hold of the man by his privates, you must cut off her hand and show her no mercy.

                  Genesis 19:8

                  “Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.”

                  Deut. 23:1

                  No man whose testicles have been crushed or whose organ has been cut off may become a member of the Assembly of God.

                  Leviticus 24:16

                  Whoever utters the name of the Lord must be put to death. The whole community must stone him, whether alien or native. If he utters the name, he must be put to death.

                  Ezekiel 23:19

                  Yet she increased her prostitution, remembering the days of her youth when she engaged in prostitution in the land of Egypt. She lusted after their genitals – as large as those of donkeys, and their seminal emission was as strong as that of stallions

                  Genesis 38:9

                  Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also.

  18. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Drear Frank,

    Is your new logo (the dog) some logo for the kind of enterprise: WAG THE DOG?
    You know, that fabulous movie about an agent and a firm to design ´information´ to formate flash-mobbing flashmobs to style ´reality´ or whatever then might be left of real stuff?

    In the movie though, the manager of this enterprise took a bad end after his obedient and shrill delivery of a trixter and manipulator.

    It´s worth watching the movie. And quite often I am reminded of the plot therein too, when trying to cope with verbal stuff in the virtual realms.

    Madhu

    • frank says:

      Maddie,
      That`s Diogenes.
      He`s mostly pretty friendly, but typically he doesn`t like people in uniforms, especially religious ones. He`s not so keen on philosophers either. Just recently, he overheard someone saying: “Dogs are simply an appearance in awareness.”

      And Diogenes convincingly challenged the epistemological basis of the assertion by sinking his teeth into the guy`s ass.

  19. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Frank,

    If this would be Diogenes, he would never ever give his selfie for a UK chat;
    too lazy and also too intelligent for such kind of crap.

    It´s not witty either.
    You have to choose another option or leave it.

    Madhu

    P.S:
    Quite demoralizing how good joking went also down the drain, it seems.

  20. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    P.P.S (to Frank):

    Dogs, by the way, have very good ears also – so they can differ between ´Maddie´ and Madhu, and the latter is my name.

    ¥ou just don´t get it, obviously.

  21. madhu dagmar fratzen says:

    Frank,
    One of your many personality identity virtual costumes I have come to know is that you don´t only know how to spell names rightly when you like to do so, but that you also have quite some knowledge of this and that on the so- called esoteric lines.

    Some of your virtual stuff though could come right from my neighborhood here in Bavaria, Munich. Sitting on one of the balconies here, sipping the beer in company, playing on their computers as IT hackers and looking ahead, what other fascistic fun factors can be presented next? Also as street work.

    You, Frank, may not be fond of uniforms, but your expression is one of mental uniform stuff and from the sort of people who love to torture as a game.

    Your way of addressing me fits all in all to what I experience in the corner I am living in here, as so-called IT-perpetrator games of fun- loving criminals.

    England so near ? Could be. Is it?

    People here would love your way of male chauvinistic, shitty expression.
    Most of the women here would love it too and will give you strong support, because they forgot as well that a woman is not an algorithm and not a ´thing´.

    You may move to Bavaria if you are not here yet. Lots of fun waiting for you. Nice available majority for this kind of shit. Friends of all family games of this kind. Real Team Players. A coach like you are they simply would very much appreciate. You have so many ideas, don´t you?

    From the Advaita, they simply got one sentence they like best and turned it into a ´California’ approach of instant advaita – a short cut – so as not to spend too much time, you know, as time is money and business, and one is always so short of time here.

    They say: “Nothing ever happens.”

    Any psychopath loves it and sees it the same way. As ´alpha and omega´ full house of playing cards. A real ´quickie’ – and a ‘quickie’ with a fun factor. No risk, much fun.

    No perspective of humanness though.

    Madhu

    P.S:
    Have a deeper look into your mental and psychological uniformed standards of treating the female. Inside-outside, I would propose.

  22. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Well,

    Satyadeva and Shantam, both of you, I would like to address here, in your short exchange about the terminus of ´belief stuff´.

    Recently, I have been very occupied with the literary opus of a famous jewish writer (who should get the Nobel Prize, I would say). His latest book is called ‘JUDAS’ as I told it to you all the other day.
    A very much to recommend ´read for everybody, I feel.

    Therein the figure of Judas was described as the ONE real believer of the human, Jesus, and a very smart one too, to get proof of his beliefs. And the main point in it all, that the human Jesus would survive all barbarian tortures anyway, as the son of God.

    Others were doubting, the hordes and the mob, which happens any time and any place, as well as his so-called friends.

    The author goes so far in his approach to the figure ‘Judas’ (the most intelligent and also the richest of his disciples), a traitor then with a lot of vitamin B connections to the historical powers of the land. that he coloured the figure of the traitor as the ONLY believer. That was indeed strong stuff to read in any perspective, also comparable ones, so to say.

    The author goes so far that he painted Judas as the first Christ, unfolding the message that Jesus himself didn´t want to establish a church and institution.

    I lay that to your Heart of Hearts, Friends, and also to their hearts, to maybe be concerned to open up for other versions of Truth, like the ´autobahn-versions´.

    Makes it not easier to deal with stuff we have to deal with; but makes it more human and truthful, which indeed always is an approach, never ending.

    With the Love of a woman,

    Madhu

  23. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    “I will die thousand deaths than to learn spirituality from western dodos” (Shantam Prem)

    Don´t promise such stuff too easily, Shantam; Life is a gift, not to put at stake for sheer madness.

    Otherwise, more than less, we all come to know by your contentless exaggerations that you seem to mean not a thing – just throwing words. In that quite a long time reading you, I am ever trying to sense what is really moving you, in the true meaning of the word.

    I didn´t get it so far.

    But what I get is that you obviously give a shit on most others in the caravanserai (except Kavita, maybe), and I am asking myself again and again, why the hell are you posting here at all, to those you hold in contempt?

    Madhu

    • shantam prem says:

      “I will die a thousand deaths, than…”
      It’s not a typical western factual art but Indian communicative art of magnifying the impact.

      Even though Osho talks are in easy to understand prose, still it is a fact two people understand in their own way, two people from two cultural backgrounds will understand in their own way.

      I don´t think Canadian and British high priests want to be unjust to Osho´s legacy, in their best intentions they are pouring the Bio petrol in the Diesel car! Results are obvious!

      Madhu, it is not fair to say, “But what I get is that you obviously give a shit on most others in the caravanserai.”
      With more than half contributors I have good rapport. They know, to play boxing is not like monkey scratching the back of other monkey. There is a humour and comradeship even in the hard-hitting posts. That has the purpose to sharpen oneself and others.

      Surely, I am not on this site to find next Mrs.Singh!

  24. Parmartha says:

    Guess we are discussing Judas here because he betrayed Jesus, and some say that Sheela et al betrayed Osho.

    In Judas’s case he was chosen out of many who wanted to be intimate disciples of Jesus when he whittled down the core disciples to twelve. Could be Jesus, like many enlightened people, did not have very good judgement of his fellow men.

    Judas must have felt very ‘left out’ in some way from the fraternity of the 12 to betray him just for a handful of silver.

    • frank says:

      Judas is the most vital part of the Jesus story because without a bad guy, bad luck, a fatal error, a stab in the back, an insurmountable obstacle, what kind of story do you have?

      ‘Once upon a time, they all lived happily ever after.’
      Not much, is it?

      Any enlightened master worth his salt should be involved in a bloody good ripping yarn. Sitting on your ass listening to a guy droning on about enlightenment is ok for a while but there’s got to be some action somewhere along the way or..?

      As the Hassidic saying goes: “God made man because he loves stories.”

  25. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Dear Parmartha,
    There is no ‘WE’ in the discussion of a ´JUDAS´ figure here. Sadly, my response to Satyadeva about that jewish author and his work was bugged – or de-edited like some other by the ´admin-team´, I don´t know. (MOD: THAT POST WAS NOT EDITED, MADHU).

    Want to share at this point that I don´t see Sheela comparable to what I tried to confer here concerning stuff. I see it like this: that the obsession to ever again open up ´new´ threads about what happened some thirty years ago has to to with individual as collective unresolved traumata; at least that is the case with me.

    And my issues have been and are up to nowadays more connected with a climate of fascism and also crimes; and I don´t share at all what Frank this evening has been posting:
    “Any enlightened master worth his salt should be involved in a bloody good ripping yarn.”
    The latter is for me as obnoxious rubbish as most of Shantam´s posts, bit more intellectual-intelligent though and more blending.

    Amos Oz, the author of ‘JUDAS’, is in my eyes a very mature human being, gifted with the talent to write about some ´fatal dreamings´ (beliefs).
    If more understanding replaces ´belief´, we have more ability to respond in a way that we can experience as a responsible way to deal with stuff and therefore less danger of a fatal misuse of power.

    Some have yet to speak up – like Savita did, I feel. That was better for me, although very painful, than being part of fooling around and bashing each other.

    I knew Sannyas as a Love Affair, a love affair with more than our petty little wishes or ambitions.

    And I am truly grateful to the Master, who, in my eyes, pointed at THIS.
    And I am truly grateful when I feel that spirit around sometimes in contributions or sharings.

    Madhu

  26. prem martyn says:

    History Lessons and Story Telling Session..

    In her documentary, ‘The Bible – A History: The Daughters of Eve’, Bettany Hughes reveals that the Canaanites worshipped the feminine via the tree of life, at the root of which was the vulva as seen in ancient clay images. (There’s much more but I can’t reference it here with any useful links).

    The Jews absorbed and co-existed with these beliefs in their early history, as their sephiroth, she claims, was a representation of that tree. From what I remember of the doc (it’s no longer online anywhere I can find) the jewish priests eliminated any worship of the feminine that had seeped into their belief after their exile and slavery into modern-day Iraq (Babylon). Having thus failed them, they deleted reference to ‘her’ as their god, but invented ‘him’ instead. He was thereafter more revengeful and warrior-like. Bit Freudian really.

    Good docs by Ms. Hughes, here are some others:

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzs4tj_divine-women-handmaids-of-the-gods_shortfilms

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzrlkv_divine-women-when-god-was-a-girl_shortfilms

    Bettany Hughes:

    “The original, Proto-Indo-European root for wisdom, wid, means to witness, see, spark an idea. Sophia, too, comes from a root that means clear and visible. I think we need to assess this new evidence with clarity – and realise it offers an unhelpfully tenacious 3,400-year-long precedent for our modern lives.

    Consider this: the prehistoric word for mind – manu – which gives us our word man – originally did not mean a male thing, but instead a thinking thing. I think and therefore I am, a man. As we debate the role of women in society today it is worth reminding ourselves that wisdom – in all its forms – was originally recognised as defining our species, not our sex.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/26/women-wisdom-papyrus-female-belief-ancient-geopolitics

  27. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Thanks, Frank (22 April, 2015 at 11:00 am).

    You are an ´elder´ here at this web-surfing place, as most of the others.
    Believe it or not, I did and do bow down to that too, as to my best capacities of the moment(s).

    My Question: Why do ´we´ need a “village idiot”, and what for??

    Madhu

    • satyadeva says:

      Well, Madhu, if I may speak from long personal experience, the major purposes he serves are first, to make one feel ‘knowledgeable’, even ‘wise’, possibly even ‘a true seeker’, in comparison.

      And then, equally important, there’s the sheer comedy of it all, of course, the perfectly ludicrous sight of a grown man continually, but unintentionally, making a fool of himself, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year.

      So you see, the guy’s a real diamond, 24 carat, a great servant of the club, and a fantastic role model for the younger players – you know, someone they can have a good laugh about and genuinely look down upon.

      • frank says:

        “Why do we need a village idiot, and what for?”

        Well, what else do you suggest we can we do?
        Stick him in an oven?

        • Lokesh says:

          “Why do we need a village idiot,and what for?”
          So that we have a psychological yardstick, of course. As long as you know El Chudo is an idiot, you know you are doing all right. The moment you begin to relate to what he says in the slightest, seek professional psychiatric assistance without a moment’s delay or risk permanent psychological damage.

          • shantam prem says:

            You wise guys and girls, your wisdom seems to be as padded as the…
            In your place I will think about Euthanasia.

            Surely young people can learn from Madhu, SD and co. No need to feel hyper longing to be with some living Bhagwan Shree or husky Avatara!

            • Lokesh says:

              What does this have to do with the youth in Asia? Ali G.

              Chudo, it is about time you woke up to the fact that the East/West duality you are so fond of went out the door when Ravi Shanker and Yehudi Menuin got together and made whoopee. Anyone here familiar wih their groundbreaking album? A veritable masterpiece.

        • karima says:

          The only idiot is the one who thinks her/himself separate from Existence, may it be the village idiot, the one commenting on the village idiot, the one commenting on the commenting of the village idiot.

          Me, commenting on the commenting, on the commenting on the commenting of the: who am I supposed to be commenting on again? Never mind, I just like commenting, keeps me busy, busy, busy. And as long as I am busy I’m safe from this horrible emptiness, innit?

  28. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    There again, Frank (22 April, 2015 at 4:14 pm),
    you perform again – that – which you project on others!

    Who, you THINK, you are?

    As a feedback, I say, you own fascist´s tendencies sometimes to go boot-wise over any limits!

    No fun factor in this.

    Madhu

  29. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Not the first time, Lokesh, that you are playing/cheating in the POKER here – with wrong cards. (Sometimes all the same, so they look quite rotten, easy to discover).

    Seems that you need it.

    Madhu

  30. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Satyadeva (22 April, 2015 at 3:36 pm),

    I have zero fun concerning all the options you are here proposing. More so, as growing older in the body I see such as a waste of time and life energy to intentionally behave like that.

    There are games which are nice and there are simply games which are off the wall.

    Madhu

  31. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    “The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.”

    No computer mouse and no thumbs up (or down) can or could ever bite into the truth of that – your quote, Frank. And no space left in between sarcasm and cynicism.

    Yes, Bernard Shaw, was indeed a so-called Great Writer. About how it was to live in this man´s company, I mean, everyday life here, nothing much good is known.

    Or do you know something of Beauty and Love and Friendship and all this kind…from this side? Or is that too ordinary?

    When yes, please share.

    Madhu

  32. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Thank you, Karima (23 April, 2015 at 7:21 am)

    You hit the spot! And the time above only added for the reason that we all are not any more the ´same´, by now-here-there, hours passing.

    Fortunately and/or unfortunately, whosoever knows it?
    And thank you for coming in that way. This morning.

    April´s cloud watching here
    Trees and bushes are blossoming all over the places
    Sun is setting just now.
    Next rain is in the air.
    Will not shower yet

    But soon.

    Madhu

  33. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    And P.S. for Karima:

    There is no shortcut to really feel the pain, to dissolve it; and that´s also inside your contribution this morning: As also the way out – to get some fresh air for a present moment; the past is dead – but not for everybody.

    And…it´s very fortunate, when being deeply entangled, obsessed to dead stuff, if a friend comes the way in a compassionate way, for a reminder or two…
    and what I really loved about your post, is the (witty) modesty in it.

    Madhu

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