Freeing Osho from sannyasins & communes? Kranti’s asks the questions
I am writing this to understand better in what way Osho can reach more people..What is stopping / slowing down Osho from reaching everyone who need him IF that is the case . I am not concluding anything here .. Just throwing open this topic and inviting people to share ..
Forget about society at large , Forget about all these doom sayers , Forget all these people who want to get a minimum number of people meditating to save the world, Forget about forming communes and keeping Osho as the exclusive privilege of groups of people whom we call sannyasins.
I am not touching anything relevant to Trademark here which is altogether a different topic . In this age of internet and corruption there is some need for protection.. I am talking about the spiritual structure / framework. And there is a load of ‘ negative ‘ past to carry as sannyasins. Huge Positives are there .But they seem to be more relevant in a living master-disciple scenario not to the individual of today,not to a young guy stepping in to the world of Osho.
The ‘ Individual ‘ in the society is in bad shape.. He needs help.. Urgent help.. There is no one better than Osho to save individual Human beings. He has the right mix of Discourses , Meditations and Therapies which a individual needs. In my opinion there is no one better than Osho to give self respect & dignity back to an Individual.
I don’t see any need for any Individual to look beyond the below
Osho active meditations / catharsis
Osho therapies like Mystic rose & N-Mind
His discourses for understanding life from a larger perspective
Leave the celebration aspect to Individuals..let them celebrate where they are in whatever way they want based on their growth..
The more we try to keep Osho within the collective group of sannyasins, the more larger world is going to stay away from Osho. So I am asking myself “are we restricting Osho by keeping him within sannyas / commune framework? ” I may be completely wrong and this may not be the case.. Please do share with me what you think ”
“Forget about all these doom sayers”
“The ‘ Individual ‘ in the society is in bad shape.. He needs help.. Urgent help..”
Confused, i am.
good question Kranti. That is what the resort is all about: not to keep osho restricted to sannyasins.. and seeing the ones in this forum, god… take him out!
Neo Vivek.. I didnt say anything different. Iuse the term individual ‘ in the context of what Osho refer to an individual. Someone whose self respect and dignity had been taken away and who is walking with so much suppresions.. One who needs help but not interested in moving to some commune somewhere or taking sannyas type of things.. An individual who just needs Osho without a string of conditions / environment attached to it..
Just to add little more. I am refering to the commune / sannyasins set ups.. not sannyas as such.. for example i have taken sannyas and that is my individual way of connecting to Osho and life.. But it doesnt mean that i need to depend outside communes / sannyasins as way of relating to Osho. So all efforts by people to make Osho reach to people within the commune / sannyasins structure is what i am questioning..
I also dont dent the advantage of such a set up.. But it seems its relevance is not that great in the absense of a living Master
Correction.. ” I also dont deny the advantage “
Neo Vivek..On the point of ‘ doom sayers ‘ i am referring to this ‘ views ‘ floating around that unless certain minimum of people come together and meditate the world will come to an end type of things…
Kranti,
This is the right idea coming to you, at right time,
First need is to gather all like minded at one place and consider broadbased discussion, analyse the situation. pin point the problem, and let the pracitcal suggestions for solution be implemented in priority and Time frame.
Also the office bearers Needs to be recycled, relocated so that the lethargic and take it easy attitude developed over the years is shaken out from the roots.
if you see, osho had a vision of creating a new man. but lots of ‘inputs are needed for creating new man’
and why this rotten man is surviving? The support system is existing. and how long one wil be able to fight the rotten system. it is upto the ‘man in trouble to see’ and this ‘seeing by troubled man’ is blocked by lot of hierarchical filtering. there has to be dynamic way of addressing the issue. and redressal mechanism.
if you take the Hindi Lovers of Osho. nothing is touching them. as if Osho has happened outside India.
for this How much Hindi world is throbbing with togetherness, love and unity. After all Osho roots are in Hindi, India and for that even OshoLibrary Online is failing to attract users the way it is now. Lots of search problems.
many Indians are loving osho, but when it comes to do meditation and discourses. they have no approach to costly downloads and computers. So on a massive scale Osho discourses to spread, a system of marketing without returns needs to be devised. But again the volume of osho discourses is so huge, that a really dedicated team has to be prepared for this.
Now I recall the word of one old sannyasin of osho, in Pune I, ‘This man is going to divide the world in two, either we will be with him or against him.’ This will the logical end of the massive scale osho presentation.
As the osho’s name from Rajneesh, Bhagwan is changed, but not the words of Fire, words of controversy carry the same impact.
so there has to be a team of those who will work like managers who will show how the work is to be done. in same way the meditation, processes, and why meditation , what is meditation and how meditation..
And this will need 24x7x365 effort. Then only the loosing ground can be reclaimed. if you feel it has not happened so far.
If you guys are done with this topic please do post in the new thread which i started more as a open question.. I would like to see a discussion how much communes and sannyasins are relevant & significant today ..from an individual point of view.. Whether Osho will do well without those boundaries..Is there a essential Osho who can reach everywhere without any reference to communes and sannyasins..? Lookig forward to some discussion there.. Thanks for everyone.. This thread saw deep thinking..
Oops.. That post was supposed to go in the previous thread.. Sorry about it..
Kranti, this seems a pretty fair idea to me, at first glance…
But you need to keep the Osho part, ie the discourses and books, an important aspect; otherwise it could all just degenerate into yet another ‘New Age’ therapy enterprise.
And before you start recommending ‘Osho stuff’ to others, please realise that it’s not necessarily for ‘everyone’ and not all therapies do good, some can damage as well, if taken by the wrong people at the wrong time. As has been the experience of various people I know.
But maybe things have changed and these things are run with greater responsibility now?
Osho can never start with a clean sheet again Kranti!! I figure that is what you unconsciously want.
Actually Osho only wanted to reach quite a small section of those who choose this human form. Many are called but few are choosen. And that is how he operated. i knew many who came through his gates which were for the most part deliberately open, he was fishing just for a few. It’s quite possible that some of those never took sannyas as such. But sannyas was a device of Osho’s to keep on sorting the sheep from the goats. You got past one hurdle, but the next one was waiting. Many gave up. the Ranch was an excellent device for getting rid of people who had come for the wrong reasons.
These things you mention will never get you or anyone else anywhere really. Enlightenment is not an incremental thing as it stands in the books of the Yogis –
A tidy life – listen to an Osho discourse, do a dynamic, live a “straight” life … all just nonsense in the eyes of God.
Heraclitus…I certainly didnt want Osho to start with clean sheet again .. What i mean is not that.. I was only questioning whether Osho can be without those sannyas / commune aspects which you also accept as tools Osho used.. I am extending it further by saying those things may not be very relevant in his abcense..
Dear Kranti
My view is that you simply cannot me against one form of doom saying and for another form of doom saying.
When you say something like :”The ‘ Individual ‘ in the society is in bad shape.. He needs help.. Urgent help..”
it reflects a very negative view of the world. Many will find that way of looking at the world questionable and flimsy. You simply cannot ask us ignore one form of doom saying and embrace another form.
As for “the individual *needs* help” … osho’s message *must* reach everyone who needs it. Its a very devotional statement and i respect your love and respect for osho’s message.
But you cannot make a sustainable snowman in sahara desert!
This field of inner growth is not for those who need it, but for those who want it. There is a subtle but a very relevant distinction between this need and want.
And hey, messages/ ideas have intelligence and life in themselves. They reach every place and every heart they are supposed to reach.
Also, how is anyone restricting osho on the first place? Given that now osho’s videos are official free for the world, all forms of restrictions seem to be gone
Dear Kranti,
I will try to answer your questions. Osho’s books have now been translated into 58 languages. We get emails and inquiries from all over the world, from people who are interested in Osho but are not connected to sannyasins, centers, or India.
OIF’s strategy of marketing Osho to the mainstream has found many new interested people all over the world.
From my center in california, man such people contact me for goods and information.
Didn’t Osho say that it would take 50 years before the world would understand him?
Love,
Dhanyam
Neo Vivek and Dhanyam
Thanks for sharing the understanding..
I dont have closed mind here.. I tried exploring Osho from another angle.. Onething where I will be greatful to Osho is a kind of freedom to look from different perspectives.. share in other people experience and grow.. In the last few months I had been here in this forum there has been so much understanding about various views.
Beloved Kranti
After his coming back to Pune in 1987, some poets had come to recite their poetry…famous poet like Neeraj, and they had photo opportunity with Osho. Osho told them: “Take me to the masses, become a bridge. ” Masses may not be able to understand Osho directly, so poets, writers and other artists were needed. And they all came between 1987 and until now, and their coming to persform in the commune was a major opening towards masses, as masses follow their particular artists, such as South Indians
worship Rajnikant as their God, India worships Sachin as their cricketar God. So within 2-3 years, this device worked, and the media also became very positive towards Osho.
Osho never thought or considered his sannyasins as barrier to reach out to masses–after all the sannyasins have drunk their master by being in His presence. There may be some who may be on drugs or posing as Gurus and exploiting the public in the name of Osho, but most of the sannyasins are functiong as a beautiful bridge.
Osho answered Prem Vanya, “remember one thing: that each of my sannyasins carries something of me, each of my sannyasins becomes a part of me, spiritually, physically, in every possible way. My sannyasins are not believers, my sannyasins are in a love affair. It is a MAD phenomenon! So wherever my sannyasins meet, my presence will be felt. Wherever my sannyasins celebrate, my message is realized, because celebration is my message.
Rejoice! Sing! Dance!
Dance so totally that your egos melt and disappear.
Dance so totally that the dancer is no longer there, but only the dance remains. Then you will find me wherever you are.”
(Come Come Yet Again Come # 4 Question 3.)
Osho sannyasins have done a wonderful job of reaching out to new people–at least in India–they have made his magazines, books, CD’s and cassettes, even his sannyas initiation available every where. Osho is loved everywhere in India. Mainstream Newspapers like Times of India keep calling me about writing articles based on Osho vision for them on regular basis. This is not happening in any other country where demands Osho articles on such a large scale. I am always busy responding to newspapers, TV channels. Osho is pulsating, vibrating everywhere in India. And I know this persoanlly as I keep travelling all over India, and some times out of India.
There’s nothing to worry. Message is reaching very effectively by his own sannysins with zest and enthusiasm. And each sannysin presents it in his own way–that’s the beauty!
Thank you Sw Keerthi
You quote Osho as ” my sannyasins are in a love affair. It is a MAD phenomenon! ‘
At the same time i was typing this in a blog
” In Love with Osho the most beautiful and intelligent human being to have walked on earth..”
Beautiful co-incidence..
Thats why I said in one of the posts above i am in love with Osho and sannyas..I relate to Osho individually..
My post was more on whether Osho being restricted in anyway..You explained it beautifully..
Thanks & Love
Kranti
Message is reaching very effectively by his own sannysins with zest and enthusiasm. And each sannysin presents it in his own way–that’s the beauty!
“Take me to the masses, become a bridge. ”
Can someone ask the resort authorites why they are not inviting the singers, dancers poets anymore.
With Osho´s aknowledgement ” Friends of Osho” banner was created, and the top most artists like Zakir Hussian and Pandit Hari Parsad and Shiv Kumar Sharma etc. have performed so many times in the ashram and that too without their usual fee.
Who stoped that tradition?
The Brand Osho and the power of His work has decreased significantly.
keerti and his team at Delhi have tried to revive this in their Osho Galleria shop and Osho world, but every one with little brain knows, broken house has no power. The exiled refugees may try to show the laughing face but people know, the vision of His words is not being lived by His own people.
Those who wanted to preach United nations are unable to manage their joint property of their few acres campus.
Osho has not just taught us the art of silence but also the art of raising questions. and the best questions are those which are pointed towards one´s own belief and the Church.
A snake which could bit one person has lived his life more effectively than that snake in a snake charmer´s basket who could entertain thousands.
but than existential laws and laws of market economy always go in different ways.
I’m not sure I agree totally with Heraclitus on the ‘numbers’ issue, ie that Osho was really only looking for “a few”.
After all, how many is that anyway – 12, 21, 50, 500, 1000, 10,000, 100,000, 1,000,000?!!
Even a million is less than 0.0002 of the world’s population.
Wasn’t he both searching for those with large potential and also spreading his net far and wide, accepting everyone, at least to begin with, in order to reach as far into the human psyche as possible?
I recall him saying that even with a relatively ‘small’ experience of being touched by his energy, we would never be the same again…(Even ‘hopeless cases like myself)….
My feeling is that, perhaps slightly contrary to my earlier response to Kranti’s idea here, that ‘Osho’s message’ has been well and truly implanted into the human psyche by his having already reached so many, and will now grow and blossom in its own good time. Whatever efforts may or may not be made on his behalf.
So, in a sense, the work is already done.
What might happen though, I suppose, in a future time, is that people will come up with ideas and teachings similar to his and that he may not be recognised as their source and inspiration.
But so what? What counts is the transformation of the human being, not any individual Master, however great – isn’t it?
Osho apparently said he wished to be remembered as “a nobody”…
So what, actually, if he’s not remembered at all?!
Kranti… with a lot of love…who cares?
If it is not osho will be somebody else.
I do not think we need to get any torch with the flame of osho in our hands.
At least i do not
Shantam, sorry I disagree. maybe from Freiburg the view is different as is here from the US. But Osho’s sannyasins are flying all over to the world spreading Osho’s meditations and love- from Israel to Brazil, from Mexico to Taiwan, from Russia to China. You can see it yourself on their facebook entries.
Osho’s books are wonderfully distributed worldwide, so are his meditations and also now more and more his audio talks through MP’s and free downloads. Videos to follow next.
At the end his little campus in Koregaon Park is not any more very significant and if Jayesh decides to close it down, it would only be a minor disturbance for some old sannyasins. Osho is free, flying through the air, available everywhere, from within.
I think sannyasins and friends have done and are doing a wonderful job!
Satya Deva
I certainly didnt see a situation where everyone needs complicated therapy.. When i mentioned therapy i meant only the Mystic rose and No mind and not complicated ones at that.. I also included all discourses.. ( didnt exclude books )
Infact my point is not those ‘ already concious individuals ‘ choosing various therapies to deepen their growth.. I meant the normal individual who will do well just by doing Dynamic and mystic rose..
And you got a great point on the numbers and what osho wanted.. I reccaled a beautiful and relevant quote
” My function is very different from the function of Gautam Buddha. His function is only a small part of my philosophy. I want individuals to become enlightened, but I want also the whole of humanity to rise with the enlightened people. They may not become enlightened, but at least become conscious enough so that nations disappear, religions disappear, races disappear, and we can live as one humanity, as one earth.”
PremVivek
Thanks for a wonderful post.. You touched few points which never came up for discussion on this forum..
I dont understand Hindi..But i still listen to His Hindi discourses as that is his natural language and the flow is awesome..
Few weeks i posted a message after listening to one of His old video from youtube.. The FIRE was there very much.. The fire we saw until He left the body..
You say ” Now I recall the word of one old sannyasin of osho, in Pune I, ‘This man is going to divide the world in two, either we will be with him or against him.’ ”
Infact Osho himself said this explicitly.. that either you can follow him or hate him..No one can stand in the middle..It is beautiful..
Prem Vivek you say ” a system of marketing without returns needs to be devised. But again the volume of osho discourses is so huge, that a really dedicated team has to be prepared for this.”
As fas Pune is concerned they have done well on the marketing side.. Can you please elaborate what you have in mind here?
Prem Vivek, that team exists. It is called Osho International and has its headquarters in London.
Anand
First of all, what name you will give to the organisational structure running the Osho show.
Is it a democratic setup, dictatorial rule, collective responsibility, joint family structure, Mom and Dad`s corner shop, a private limited company.
Feel free to say It is a finer work of Meritocracy, i will accept it too, if you honestly think so. There must be a name for an organisational base, exactly 35 times price increase in 20 years cannot happen without any intelligent system working behind.
Secondly, just one paragraph in their support from Osho´s discourses of 30 years. After all, Osho was not confining himself with para psychological stuff.
Brutally and mercilessly but with a compassionate enlightenment, he was criticising each and every institution around the world, tell me one example, where one can say, yes…people running His empire are doing better than the others.
I will even accept this, when you say resort is the only organisation devoted to the human evolution where salt and pepper are served in paper packing as in the airplanes.
Shantam, not sure what the problem really is.
My answer is OSHO.
I check it out every year in Pune and value my time and experience, which is different every year, since it is always in the NOW the presence of the people
there.
Sure, there are always could be things to be improved and better. But then…
I have to deal and live with the situation there and it is still valuable to me – after all these years.
Globally: the Osho distribution of his work seems to be in good shape and all his messengers doing a great job. Could it be better? Maybe….
But you really seem to have a big itch about the Pune organsation, to spend such an extra ordinary amount of time on this website rampaging against it.
Will I see you In Pune in January?
Dhanyam have you not heard of the boy who cried wolf? Yes OIF’s mass marketing strategy, with all its problems, has this single advantage. However, just like OIF’s problems, the problems within Pune and the Inner-Circle are also similarly evident. If people hearing of Osho come to find out that the ‘official’ centres and political institutions emerging in the wake of the Master not being around are riddled with serious problems, then they will turn away from Osho and likely not listen next time around. Just see the effort that was involved with trying to pick up the pieces after the “Rajneesh Orange people cult” disaster. This is why for example more people may be doing kundalini today in the auditorium than in the last few years of the Master being in the body. That says nothing positive about the current situation. It simply reflects the historic mess – that is repeating itself.
Dhanyam gets some traffic from the movement that has banned him. Yes it has advantages, but see the absurd contradiction.
Keerti, what you have created simply by being yourself and not part of the organized institution left by Osho is startling. Still, the official line – even in India – is that the Osho movement is run by the Inner-Circle and the main centre is in Pune. Other centres and movements are outgrowths, splinter groups, or nut-cases (the official line).
Osho invited all types of therapies, same has Keerti says all types of people are helping share Osho’s message. The trouble now with therapies is that Osho is not left to guide the process. Garimo (Inner-Circle) has expounded the greatness of the evolution of therapies in Pune, and elsewhere I suppose. The trouble is this is not an intrinsic part of Osho’s legacy. Yes Osho left his discourse and a few physical structures. Aside from this he left his (active) meditations, and his meditative therapies. These therapies do not require a great wise therapist to guide the process and help the seekers to share their feelings and talk about wishy washy feel-good mish-mash. Osho’s meditative therapies, like his meditations and discourse, are in themselves clearly defined, complete, and not open to addition or refinement. This idea of refining and integrating therapies as part of Osho is a debacle based on the endless spiritual trip of power abusing idiotic the-rapists.
Kranti your starting thread is very defining. It makes us all aware of the clear demarcation between Osho’s legacy – that should be preserved, protected, and shared – and the muck of new-age fantasy that is unhelpfully being woven into Osho’s legacy (including his books).
If you cut out all the crap – from the Orange people till today – what you have is so simple: Osho’s discourses, his meditations, his meditative therapies, and some structures like the Samadhi. Aside from this all that is needed is a few intelligent people to manage the sharing of this in an uncorrupted manner. The trouble is in a commune, or when a group of so-called sannyasins get together, their personal trips get thrown in the mix and we end up with things like the Pune Resort. There is no reason why Osho’s legacy cannot be adequately made available in the context of a community, a resort, or whatever. All that is needed is a common-sense organisational process – the kind like Kranti suggested in a previous article.
Satya Deva I also disagree with Heraclitus. Everyone is on the same journey. It is just that some people need more help than others, and some people have more distance to travel than others. Osho helped more those in need and those with a light veil covering them. Still he spoke to, and gave sannyas to, all that came to him. He tried to share his message with all that had the ears to listen, however so slightly.
Yahoo
Abhay
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Audience-riveted-by-Rekhas-Sufi-rendition/articleshow/5233622.cms
“Equally at ease with classical, folk and Sufi melodies, Rekha who has sung for films like Maachis (1996), Maqbool (2003), Omkara (2006), this year’s Dilli 6 and Kaminey is a diehard Sufi at heart. Having done a course in Sufism from the Osho commune in Pune in 2002 and a 10-day Sufi camp in Taiwan in 2008, she claims to have undergone a life-changing transformation. ”
Do things like that still happen at pune?
Beloved Abhay Your following statement makes me think—
(Keerti, what you have created simply by being yourself and not part of the organized institution left by Osho is startling. Still, the official line – even in India – is that the Osho movement is run by the Inner-Circle and the main centre is in Pune. Other centres and movements are outgrowths, splinter groups, or nut-cases (the official line).
When the new people ask me about our main centre, I tell them in Pune. And i tell them how to contact etc. No other centre can be compared to centre in Pune. I do not talk to new people about any problem with Pune. I send them there without carrying any prejudice in their head.
What is really amazing that when the new people go to welcome centre in Pune, people ask about any centre in Delhi. Nobody is informed about Osho World or Oshodham. We don’t exist for Pune people. We are just Maya. I laugh about it. There’s so much happening in the north–as never before. If you check the activities of meditation camps, the listing published in Osho World is about 4 pages of the magazine. Osho Times only showed the listing only in half page. Osho World gives complete picture of what is happening around India, including the meditation activities permitted by by Pune.
And this magazine is loved by all Osho lovers around India and has 3 times more circulaltion than Osho Times which closed down in August.
So the work continues without bothering about Pune. And Osho World is inspiring hundreds of Osho lovers to continue spreading the message in their own unique way.
People in Pune cannot claim that what they do or order others to do is the work. That monopoly is shattered forever. And it is ridiculous when 2-3 people claim that what they decide is right and all others are wrong. This is the real mystery that work is being done by the hundreds of faceless people who are not being recognised by Pune and they don’t bother to be recognised. This work itself is real Joy by itself. And this is the real unending support that does not need any organisation. It is growing like an organism.
“This is the real mystery that work is being done by the hundreds of faceless people who are not being recognised by Pune and they don’t bother to be recognised. This work itself is real Joy by itself. And this is the real unending support that does not need any organisation. It is growing like an organism.”
Swami Keerti,
For my own understanding, i wish your response about this post.
When you think Pune´s gateless gate will be again open for such people who were and are with Osho because of their passion rather than the syndrome called “whitemen´s burden.”
See, with people like you and the other many, i have spend 17 years in Pune. I don´t remember a single time even to sit with you on the same table for food. There was no need for personal friendship, but one by one i have seen such Osho lovers simply chopped off like the old trees.
To see people getting ex communicated for no reason at all, has hurt ed my sensibilities and i know just for this reason, many many people simply stoped coming to Pune.
Even when people don´t condemn the injustice loudly, the sense of fair play, the higher self in us definitely nudges us.
So out of this reason, i created a self imposed exile from the ashram.
Kitne Ujale Andar Aaye, Jab Ghar ki Diwar Giri….
still it will be a joy to see and feel that symbolically, Osho ashram in Poona and OS ho Ashram in Delhi are part of the same chain, an extension counter of each other. When this thick wall between India and Pakistan will fall? Simply it is not poetic, not aesthetic.
shantam
” All that is needed is a common-sense organisational process – the kind like Kranti suggested in a previous article.
Abhay.. Thanks for a post . We didnt exchange good posts like this for too long..
Yes.. I did suggest a model.. But whether we create a new one or tweak the ex0siting one is not very relevant..
But will it get a buy-in from all concerned.. If so what will make people accept such a set up.. After understanding more about everyone’s views , I sincerly feel it may not work out again because it is going to present us the same issues which we have now
Mind you, the differences of opinions are not restricted to approach * Head Vs Heart )… People will want to run different centers with lot of autonamy..No one will like that ‘ new ‘ set up which we talk about imposing any condition or haing trademark rights etc etc.. then we will be back to square one..
let me know what should be the role fo such a set up… just administrative? If you are restricting Osho lovers who manage the show to just being administrators you are cutting their wings..
If you want such a purely administrative set up ‘ corporatization ‘ will be a solution ..Will that be acceptable.. ?
Moreeover this particular thread of mine is more a question on whether Osho will be more effective without the framework of communes and sannyasins..
It is easy for older sannyasins & not so old sannyasins to have a open mind and accept such a structure as they have seen the beautiful side of it. But a new comer may not be comfortable if you ask him to take sannyas or ask him to be part of a commune etc etc.. I have seen this happening with my own friends.. I am just exploring things from this perspective
Ofcourse Sw keerthi and Dhanyam explained beautifully that this is happening..
Just to elobarate one point
” If you are restricting Osho lovers who manage the show to just being administrators you are cutting their wings”
Imagine a situation where a Jayesh or Amrito or Keerthi or Neelam’s role being restricted to administration alone.. I am not sure whether they will be happy & fulfilled.. they are not mamagers looking for a career..they personify pure passion & love for Osho .. It is like cutting their wings and freedom and individuality on the manner in which they want to express Osho.. So asking them to play pure administrative role is highly unfair .. After all they lived and breathed Osho..they lived through the ups and downs and travelled their journey with Osho.. Osho is very much part of them and they are very much part of Osho..
One thing about Pune is that there is no feeling there that it is wrong just to go there looking for dates.
My guess is that in the Indian and Nepali centres this would be discouraged.
Given that Osho teaches non judgement, I would have thought Pune is right about this.
Isn’t there a certain moralism in the Indian and Nepali centres?
” Given that Osho teaches non judgement, I would have thought Pune is right about this.”
Yes interms of moral freedom Pune scores high..atleast in my experience.. I dont know about Sw Keerthi’s place
It will be interesting if Sw Keerthi shares with us what kind of restrictions we have in Oshoworld? i am not suggesting the place had to be resort like ( which anyway the is the issue we debate ) But more from a individual freedom & behavioural restrictions angle..
” Yes interms of moral freedom Pune scores high..atleast in my experience.. I dont know about Sw Keerthi’s place
It will be interesting if Sw Keerthi shares with us what kind of restrictions we have in Oshoworld? i am not suggesting the place had to be resort like ( which anyway the is the issue we debate ) But more from a individual freedom & behavioural restrictions angle..”
Sorry Kranti , lam not after you , but lam glad Bhagwan is not around to see his people discuss about morality
“But you really seem to have a big itch about the Pune organsation, to spend such an extra ordinary amount of time on this website rampaging against it.”
During the sleep the paragraph above was playing in my mind. Am i rampaging against the organisation, just to play non conformist for the sake of it or is because of the famous proverb,” Too much familiarity breeds contempt”.
When the web of lies and more lies are spread by the people to defend their actions, where stand the individual among this.
Few months before, the spokeswoman of the resort, who was also the editor of Osho Times, gave the reason of its closure, because of the environmental reasons paper edition of the magazine will not be published anymore.
Sounds very far sighted.
But it was just a white wash, a pure lie. Common readers who buy their copy at Railway Kiosks have rejected the official copy.
And those idiots who think new people does not like to see the dead Old man´s face should dip their head in a glass of water.
Osho World has always Osho´s photo on the cover as it was instructed by the master himself. Hindi readres and English readers, and most of them are not sannyasins, both have given a clear signal to the extra smart asses.
Even animals know where the grass is greener.
Will they accept this knock out blow with dignity and humility and will learn about the people´s inspirations.
No.
There are many examples like this where the truth is molested as per the convenience, and that too where the search of truth is the main subject.
If someone teaches in the monastery about the etiquette of an escort service, it is not such a big thing but to cover the Master´s truth with one´s own selfish motives…what word one can use?
Those who can swallow the stones in the food at a five star restaurant, please enjoy the hospitality, but for the sake of your own dignity at least accpet that stones are not Zen sticks.
Regarding the issue of morality, I do not remember ever being considered a derogatory thing that someone went to get a date at pune. people who were thrown out, or dis encouraged from coming back were the ones who forced themselves into others… not the flirting ones.
regarding shantam´s motivation to turn pune yo what it used to be, is understandable… but… hard to ever see the light.
I am still upset about you throwing the marble I sent to you to a lake…. it was 200 U$. I just hope you did not just throw it, but did a nice ritual with it. ha, ha
” Sorry Kranti , lam not after you , but lam glad Bhagwan is not around to see his people discuss about morality ”
Sorry Pavitro.. It is from the angle what you say..I just responded to Alok and it is more about freedom , morally or otherwise.. If Osho communes / meditation centers also become like other manostries with rules and regulations then what is the point?
I meant ” It is NOT from the angle what you say “
200 U$ is big money for an Indian
By the way Shantam..you could have autioned it .. People who want to build a temple for Osho would have bought it..
Nice thread Kranti.
Even if we try to restrict “Osho within the collective group of sannyasins”, we will not be able to. His vision is too huge to be restricted. People will find him eventually.
Nevertheless, communes are needed where you can be away from all of the mundane-ness of the world and just be in a pure space of meditation, oasis in a dry world. But this does not mean that Communes are restricting Osho’s vision.
I wish we could have a Osho commune in USA. (people are thinking along this line already). I live in Ohio and trying my best to share Osho with friends (with success to some degree) and you know sometimes I miss the energy of a commune. We are trying to build a community of people who read Osho and are interested in Meditation – and believe me it works. And it would be really frustrating at this time if someone comes along and says “Osho Meditations are Copyrighted – you cannot share with folks”
There are always people out there who need meditation. Spread the word out – (I did it through public libraries) – and people will reach you. Its worked magic for me and the joy of sharing is so blissful. What can be more fulfilling than someone who comes to you and says – “Meditation changed my day!”
Kranti, I think Osho is free like a bird and everyone interested in Osho has many ways to get in contact with him, his energy, his words, his videos, his meditations and meditative therapies.
In India he is a household name and so in Italy, Taiwan, and many other countries.
In the seventies his sannyasins needed to run around the world in orange with his picture around the neck. I tell you that was not easy!
Now we have the Internet and all modern technology. Who is there to stop Osho?
” His vision is too huge to be restricted. People will find him eventually.”
How True!!!.. Thanks for the sharing
Yes I understand Communes and sannyas have great role to play..The collective energy from them is not comparable.. I myseff long to be part of a greater Osho commune ..
I see people around me whose life will be transformed if they JUST do Dynamic or Gibberrish.. All they need is to know there is a possibility of throwing the junk out and becpme lighter.. I try my best to share Osho with all the people around me in small ways… Thats the reason I posted this question and looked beyond the collective
Yes.. Ananad.. What he gave us is a life affirmative and joyful journey..Anyone who can open up a little will abosrb him easily..
Yes.. Anand.. What he gave us is a life affirmative and joyful journey..Anyone who can open up a little will absorb him easily..
Just a related Quote
” “I am not going to give you a destination. I can only give you a direction – awake, throbbing with life, unknown, always surprising, unpredictable. I’m not going to give you a map. I can give you only a great passion to discover. Yes, a map is not needed; great passion, great desire to discover is needed. Then I leave you alone. Then you go on your own. Move into the vast, into the infinite, and by and by, learn to trust it. Leave yourself in the hands of life.”
I tried to first introduce people to Kundalini Meditation and then talked about Osho. The Meditation worked wonders. And obviously people started talking about Osho and went ahead and bought some of his books.
I love what Sw Arun said once during his trip to US
“If you meditate you will need more meditation but if you do not meditate you will not need any meditation”. And it makes sense.
Anthony, i was not aware that marble was of 200 dollers, was it so precious as Shakira´s bra!
When you visit Germany, i will take you to the lake, it belongs to one of the best spot of this city. You will feel happy that Osho´s podium stone is submerged in that lake, where people come for sun bathing, and there is no conflict between the naturists and swim suit people.
Pune comes back to its old glory or not, life will go on moving. Thanks heaven Google is not developed by the people who swear by Dynamic and neither Infosys was conceived after reading Osho.
This i am saying because a little bit of silence and we jump as if it is a hug from Lady Diana, and the way we throw the words like Meritocracy, Organisum etc.
My protest is the way, few people imposed their interptation, their will, their psychological drawbacks into the whole movement.
Simple point is that part should create their own tuning. whole should stay as whole.
If J&A open their Osho meditation resort in US or Canada, they are definately free to adjust their product as per the reality.
Not to celebrate 11th December or 19th January there is quite understandable, not to display Osho photo is also intelligent, but Poona was and will be a complete market place of spiritual products.
Osho´s cutting edge creation should not turn into a vegetable knife.
The way it is now, Osho isprojected as a J krishnamurti with beard.
we definitely need a well trained group of laughter therapists to get the world laughing and relaxed,then send in some zen master cum therapists to finish the “job”.
what do you reckon?
Very Good idea Frank,
cum therapists to finish the “job”.
Here Osho´s people have the proficiency, and to give the sanctity cover of zen master “cum” therapists, world is craving for this.
For this work, nobody will complain about 700 Rupees day pass at Pune, thousands of people will be on the way.
Dear Abhay,
As book sales are in the millions we all know that now many of those people ever visit the Resort. They enjoy and are satisfied just reading Osho books, know nothing about problems with OIF and don’t care about OIF.
I am banned, but the Viha Center is growing and the Viha Connection http://www.oshoviha.org/connection continues to be read worldwide. We hope to offer an online version in the near future.
There is a lot going on beyond the Resort, but you don’t get the Viha Connection. From here we have moved on and the roses smell so beautiful.
I see things much differently from you, but I respect your point of view.
Love,
Dhanyam
700 Rs is less then $ 20.00 a day and about 13 Euros. Who said spiritual growth comes cheap? And the people who think they cannot afford this, have made up their minds already and booked their tickets for Lovebabas Osho beach in Goa.
Live and let live.
Keerti I am of the view that some buddhas like to stand out the front of class and teach. Others like to sit in the front row and sometimes hang out with the teacher. Others like to sit in the back corner and keep quiet. Of course buddhas like Osho just get kicked out.
I am of the view that sending people to Pune Resort can be a positive for the reason that there are hidden buddhas offering a helping hand. Obviously their ability to help people will be offset by the ability of others at Pune Resort to destroy this. Here I am not talking about non-devotional Western style managers who do not care for pictures of old dead people. The basic concept of Pune Resort is to me sound. I agree that the remaining few in charge had no right to pursue this concept at the expense of all other aspects of Osho – primarily because Pune is the space that Osho left to all his people.
I am firmly of the view that the concept is in itself being so poorly developed that it is harming people – mentally, emotionally, and physically. This is a partly intangible and partly tangible conclusion. Subtly it is for example in the energy and control exhibited by a lot of the managers (and managers to be) in Pune. More overtly it is in the health and safety and negligence issues that have arisen since Pune 2 Ashram became Pune Resort.
Have you for example not heard about what I have talked about with respect to drinking water contamination? Have you simply dismissed it as nonsensical? For many years, if you sent people to the Pune Resort during the monsoon, you would have been sending them to a place where the drinking water was seriously contaminated. This I know for a fact. You may say that this is the harsh reality of India. I know different. I know that with relatively little expense the water could have been considerably improved in quality. Yet the Resort continues to expand its vision with vast financial investment based on the dubious list of things to do left by Osho.
To me the well-meaning people in Pune have little chance to help people because of the control and corruption of the entire process – the reason in large part you left I suppose. This control has lead to the practical inefficiencies and problems that I embrace under health and safety and negligence issues. This is what happened in the great communes of Russia and China. Such a climate is one of grave infringement on peoples mental, emotional, and physical well-being. How in such an environment can you still send people to Pune, even if there are hidden buddhas there? Yes one can get enlightened in a gulag. However for every enlightened one there will be thousands that carry deep scarring in their unconscious.
Keerti I can understand that you create a nice public face by having an inclusive approach, and this has benefits: that bad guy kicked out of Pune looks not so bad after all. I myself find this to be deeply hypocritical.
OIF still owns the copyrights, and the argument about lack of credibility proving the transference of ownership rights to successive foundations and trusts and private companies will not work.
Yahoo
Abhay
http://oshobuddhism.blogspot.com
Dhanyam do you not see the simple fact that though many who read Osho’s mass marketed (addition and subtraction) edited and corrupted words do not go to the Resort, many will. Many will also visit affiliated centres and affiliated the-rapists.
Yahoo
Abhay
Beloved Abhay,
You say
“OIF still owns the copyrights, and the argument about lack of credibility proving the transference of ownership rights to successive foundations and trusts and private companies will not work.”
Osho is going to speak thru millions of hearts that he is free. 4 people of OIF are not going to be able to contain them. They will stop one and see that another erupts from somewhere. They are wasting their energies unnecessarily against MAD game of Master disciples. Master is at work thru his disciples as he is throbbing in their hearts. Those who are chopping editing his books are essentially cowards that’s why they are doing it. they are not strong enough to declare courageously: “This is what our master said and we stand by it.” So they try to make Osho presentable to the people as somebody harmless, good christian, believing in the staus quo. So they wud publish only those excerpts, publish compilations, which are not offensive to the powers to be in the West and feel safe. While their master declared so loudly and so many times: Sannyas means to live in insecurity. Live dangerously.
> Master is at work thru his disciples as he is throbbing in their hearts.
and some of those disciples, are even therapists… still.
Live dangerously is repeated many times in the sannyas world, but to annoy the managers is beyond the danger zones, they can ban the entry from the resort.
Live dangerously means to have a sticker on the back of the car, Free Tibet.
Abhay, what to do. I have to agree with your points in the last post, though the path of non confirmists is never easy, but it is better than the path of the blind.
(Just to avoid musunderstanding, i am not saying “Blind” for the people who agree with the present structure of the ashram or of their respective churches).
As when Osho was in the body and our ego was on the sky, everybody who goes to temples and churches and to Sai Baba´s were looking pigmys.
Just 20 years, and we as a group are no more than a kiosk in a big city. For sure, those who were unemployed, it is still a good luck sign to be part of that Kiosk.
In the meanwhile
——————————
http://www.zopag.com/news/headley-visited-osho-ashram-in-pune-twice-police/9919.html
Headley visited Osho Ashram in Pune twice: Police
Pune, November 17:
American terror suspect David Headley visited the ‘Osho Ashram’ in Pune twice during 2008-2009, a top police official said.
“Headley stayed in the city for a day in June 2008 and March 2009 and visited the Ashram, frequented by foreigners,” Ravindra Sengaonkar, DCP, Crime, said.
According to Ashram officials, he visited the establishment at Koregaon Park for meditation, he said.
Headley, accused of masterminding terror attacks in India at the behest of Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT), is believed to have visited Pune on a business visa and left for Mumbai later, police sources said.
A team of National Investigation Agency (NIA) sleuths which recently visited the city in connection with the probe has provided details of Headley’s visit to Pune, they added.
A spokesperson of Osho Ashram Amirt Sadhna said the Ashram was open to all and visited by thousands of people for meditation.
“4 people of OIF are not going to be able to contain them.”
The game will become interesting when they get the power to contain 4 people.
Status quo in the ashram needs a change, without a bit of chaos, our Master also can feel bored.
http://www.indianexpress.com/comments/headley-visited-osho-ashram-twice-during-200809/542670/
Headley visited Osho Ashram twice during 2008-09
David Headley, accused of masterminding terror attacks in India at the behest of LeT is believed to have visited Pune on a business visa and left for Mumbai later.
After many years, ashram is back in the news but for the wrong reasons.
and iteresting thing is newspapers and Tv channels are refereing the place as “Osho Ashram”.
May be resort authorities can hire a PR agency to tell people, it is not ashram, it is a resort, Sir.
Why this news need to be highlighted in sannyasnews ? What is the purpose behind that ? Just information ?
If Indian Govt thinks he is good enough to be given a VISA why a meditation ceter shoyld make a fuss about it.. ? What about people and their purpose of visit when it comes to 1000s of meditation centers and monastries and temples in India.. Who is highlighting them?
Yes Kranti, just infornation the way family shares the information, what is happening in the street, town, city when siblings are spread all around the globe.
And whether we people like it or not, Sannyasnews is may be the only medium in the world of Osho, just like a dining table in the house, where feelings, programmes, and advenutres are discussed and shared.
Dangerous only, if he came to check out the situation with terrorist plans in his mind…
Hope he did Dynamic
Just an extra snippet…..
Later on July 10, 2009, LeT Member A responded to Individual A’s email, stating, in part, that: “There are some investment plans with me, not exactly at Rahul’s city but near that. Rest we can decide when we meet according to your ease,” the FBI investigator says in his complaint.
When the FBI investigator quotes Headley having said that he had some “investment plans” (read targets) “not exactly at Rahul’s city (read Mumbai) but near that”, the target is definitely not Delhi and it was all likelihood Pune.
I am out of this topic.. I am not comfortable.. and i am not going to allow my mind to amuck .. Sorry guys.. i am back discussing meditation & celebration..
The way these mercenaries are looking for the soft targets, specially frequented by the western population, soon it will be a necessity to install again the metal detectors as it was during Osho´s discourses, moreover meditations or prayers, communities, countries or societes, which stay united in their diversity are more resilient, more alert and aware.
Don´t you think Kranti that in alchemy meditation and celebration have to pass through the gutters of darkness and filth.
How one can have the heaven without hell in the packet.
With my friends in Pune, i have joked many times that ashram can operate beautifully with Osho but will be difficult without Dhyanesh, the guy seekers of love and beauty hate the most, the guy who is one of the finest expert in street management.
“Yea, though i walk through the valley of the shadow of death, i will fear no evil.” (23rd Paslm)
I understand Shantam.. i am not afraid of discussing darker aspects.. BUt I also realize how that easily slip into unwanted publicity..and we play a negative role.. Thats why sometime is stay away especially when i dont know facts..
And your suggestion of using metal detectors is anyway good suggestion.. Not only pune even other centers should think aboutit..It has become a necessity considering the safety of people..
This guy Headley’s most probably a CIA operative, working in collusion with the Pakistan/India agencies.
Cover:
Paki ‘terrorist’
American naturalized citizen
Purpose:
Generate fear through government/media controlled bogus “terrorist events”, ala Osama Bin Laden’s MO.
Create false link between ‘terrorists’ and Osho and his main Commune through pre-planned visits and subsequent media “leakages”. Result: Increased outside police control over Osho Resort, decreased numbers of people coming to the Resort, and world-wide negative impression of Osho and his meditations through “guilt by association”.
Standard tactics with these agencies. They are professionals at this type of thing. Control of the media is the main power strategy here.
This Paki gets to cut a good paycheck in the States, travel the world, and chill at the poolside at the Osho Resort after shaking a bit with Kundalini Meditation in the Pyramid. Maybe even pick up a Western chick in the process, sip a little chai, and fly out to get “arrested” back in the US. Sure beats a grinding job selling insurance policies or working the swing shift at the local factory in Chicago or Lahore, if you can ignore all the slimey ethical things involved…..
OshoBob,
>Create false link between ‘terrorists’ and Osho and his main Commune through
False link? Seems to me and wikipedia, Osho sannyasins have a long standing link to terrorism. Besides the bio attacks in oregon, For years Osho enjoyed claims of being a spiritual terrorist.
I can understand the “resort” having an eye kept on it to see what’s being taught.
-g
garimo,
no doubt about it, all the government agencies have the Osho phenomenon on their radar screen — always have. If people lived according to Osho’s views of life, there would be no nations, what to say about their undercover agencies. Security is the name of the game here, and job security takes top priority…
as to the salmonella salad bar fiasco at The Dalles restaurant, and any of the other so-called cute tricks thunk up by The Pope of Rajneeshpuram herself, and the Phillipino Ma Puja, aka Nurse Mengele, including the needling that Shanti B. gave Doc Amrito at Osho Mandir — all these “events” may well need to be reviewed with a more discerning retrospective perspective, now after 25 years, and a helleva lot of water under the bridge…
Also,
Wikipedia is basically second-hand information, all based on news items, that in themselves have no verifiable references, other than the people that created them. I sure wouldn’t base my life on the “facts” of a Wikipedia article. They are about as true as some of the “certified stories” that Professor A.Thompson lays out to bolster his overinflated claim of being the most knowledgable person alive relating to the history of the Osho movement—mostly gossip and heresay it seems to me.
And Osho himself, “spritual terrorist”…? Probably is…, though, along with being a man of great wisdom, Osho was also a confirmed braggadacio, public relations wizard, inveterate liar, and spontaneous story-teller extrordinaire. One-off for sure…
oshobob,
a friend of mine always said sheela was a cia plant.
i would say,more probably,she tried to be a double agent,who finally couldnt deliver to either side and in the end had to run from both.
the “spiritual terrorist” moniker was unfortunate.
then came oshama bin laden with his turban and beard — even more negative synchronicity.
i said at the ranch that osho should have ditched all religious crap,robes and all,shaved his head and beard,kept the moustache,had “truth” and “lies” tattooed on his knuckles.
then folks would have believed the “resort” name.
now its just another “ashram” full of what ashrams are full of.
what a bummer
Osgo bob you say:”They are about as true as some of the “certified stories” that Professor A.Thompson lays out to bolster his overinflated claim of being the most knowledgable person alive relating to the history of the Osho movement—mostly gossip and heresay it seems to me.”
I am sure now you can proceed to back up such claim with something called proofs. If you do not know The sources of my information. all you have to do is lay the story, and I will tell you from where i got it.
I know very little myself. I am just a researcher who interviews the people directly involved.
come on bob.
tony is the undisputed world heavy weight champion of oshology.
there is simply no other oshologist who can touch him.
you know that.
he`s right up there,in a paradigm of his own.
frank,
hey…that description of Osho with the shaved head and beard, moustache remaining, no robes….truth and lies tatooed…of course that is none other than the Golden Greek himself, Gurdjieff…someone should do a Photoshop image of it, Osho as G. …. that would be something to see….
and Sheela, she is quite a character, what her real story is, is unknown — I’m sure a lot of people would like to know, maybe Tony can do a biography on her…
which leads me, Professor, to you, and this “source” generated research that you do. All organizations are replete with people that rise in that group basically by being willing to back the group’s “story.” Osho’s group seems to be no different in that respect. If any of the big shots tell you something, it doesn’t mean it is true or not true. These people are not neutral by any stretch of the imagination. They would lose their position, whether it’s Ma Maneesha or Barack Obama — their truth is based on the usefulness of the information that they are leaking out — useful to their group! That’s another way of defining propaganda. “Source” material in any reasearch is always circumspect — from inside it’s positive to the group, and from outside it’s usually negative. The truth of any of it rarely enters into the equation, as far as I can glean.
Or, as my father used to say, “Don’t believe anyone!”
I’m still thinking Tony, that you and C. Calder are one and the same — the thesis and the antithesis— maybe both identities created by a third party.
I will not reveal my Source for this, let’s just say it is beyond Deep Throat…..!
my friend oshobob. it is understanding what you say,if what I have said has been only positive and in accordance with the Official story. But if you have read what i have said, you will see that I contradict the official story many times and i have expressed my criticism to Osho, the resort, the master disciple relationship, etc
regarding my being Calder, it is almost offensive.i think i am way more handsome and charming than that man. also I think i am more educated and probably a better lover.
right Tony, but your criticisms are your personal opinions, and that’s not neutral research by a long shot.
when you compare yourself to Calder (always better, I don’t fail to notice), you are now being more honest, since your ‘source’ is yourself, you make no bones about being academically neutral here….
but i wonder, conjuring up this pictoral paradigm of your being more handsome than Crispus Calder, I have never seen a photo of the guy anywhere. You must have…could you post a link to it, so we can all see….i’m sure Shantam would be thrilled, he is always pressing everyone for their photos it seems…
“I know very little myself. I am just a researcher who interviews the people directly involved.”
And most probably Anthony, you research those people, who fit with your comfort Zone.
Have you interviewd Neelam Or Keerti, the most vocal critics of Jayesh and co.
These two people did not go with the silent dignity but were dragged out.
Tha paragraph below from Bob-
All organizations are replete with people that rise in that group basically by being willing to back the group’s “story.” Osho’s group seems to be no different in that respect. If any of the big shots tell you something, it doesn’t mean it is true or not true. These people are not neutral by any stretch of the imagination. They would lose their position, whether it’s Ma Maneesha or Barack Obama — their truth is based on the usefulness of the information that they are leaking out — useful to their group! That’s another way of defining propaganda. “Source” material in any reasearch is always circumspect — from inside it’s positive to the group, and from outside it’s usually negative.”
When politicians lie it is understandbale, when the lovers lie, it is also life. When my 14 years old son lies about his smoking habits, it is adoloscent, i also lie about hundred euros per month, it is basic survival but when as seekers of truth, we compromise over the existantial truths, that may be goes too far.
Shantam i talked to Neelam a number of times, so, i did with her daughter Priya.
The thing is shantam, in the ashram resort, if you want to officially interview someone you have to ask permission to do so and be explicit about the fact that you are doing research, In that way you will only get the official story. I did that a few times, but most of the time I was another guy around talking informally to people… and that is the way i got most of the information.
Oshobob, I never saw a picture of Christopher calder… I was just bragging. the man has taken good care not to have left any around.
I am sure if I put some energy into it, I could get some of his in the mount abhu time as sw. krishna christ, but honestly , i was not so into that.
Finally, there is no neutral research… I always get a personal idea of things. What has some level of neutrality is the collection of facts. and that is done by cross checking different versions, but even that is never a 100 % sure.
Dear o Dear
when I searched google for ‘ sw. krishna christ, ”
Guess what .. I got Anthony’s picture first
Oshobob..you got your man..
http://images.google.co.in/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=sw.+krishna+christ%2C&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=
I also searched and got my picture… is from my blog and article against calder…ha, ha irony of life…
You have found yourself Anthony..Arrived
Good article Anthony, response to Calder. Respect.
Thank you Anand
Yes Anand..calders article was pain inside me for years as i didnt have any way of knowing whether someone has responded to him.. When Anthony did a major heaviness fell off me.. I am greatful to him as he replied on behalf of all Osho lovers..
I started this thread asking whether Osho is being restricted by sannyasins.. Now the restrictions seem to come from unexpected corner..too bad..Didnt even imagine..
I wonder with all the research Anthony does, did he ever researched the past of Jayesh. Where does the man come from? His background before sannyasins.
Ever talked to his ex-girlfriends? His sudden appearing might suggest some implanting from whom and which organization?
Think it is that Women with Hollywood connections…I forgot her name.. There is a detailed info available in the web about Jayesh and how he came to Osho in search of spirituality.. I dont remember the link..
Served!!
here is his complete story
http://www.n0by.de/2/rst/jayesh.htm
Tony, you do look quite handsome in that photo…the country of Chile and all Latinos should feel very proud…
go to the next thread — we need some neutral verification of Resort entrance numbers/month — Ma Sadhana says 20,000 foreigners pass through the Gateless Gate every month. Is it true, professor?
If I search for Jayesh in google images..Guess what
Our own Shantam Prem image comes.. So Jayesh and Shantam are one..New twist
yes oshobob,
tony looks a bit like sean connery,dont you think?
i always imagine him as sean connery playing william of baskerville in “the name of the (mystic) rose”
—conducting his logical enquiries into the bizarre goings on of a dodgy religious institution……
pitting his wits against the inquisition….
but seriously tony….
“i am a better lover than calder..”?
surely that is taking this “researcher” thing too far?
where did you get that gem of information?
oysters,candlelight and chilean wine,at your place…..
did you have to complete the research first hand,or did you get your girl to test drive him?
ha, ha Frank you make me laugh.
Well… I guess I was bragging again. I would like to think I am a better lover… but I do not know for sure.
I mean, if his real name was Walter Pfuetze. No one can be a good lover with that name. Pfuetze means MUDDY PUDDLE.
Can you imagine some woman saying “hey muddy puddle, do me”! no way..
Oshobob. 20.000 each month? no way.
7.000 perhaps. you know people around osho have always have the tendency to inflate figures. the 10.000 Buddhas were more like 3500. the 800.000 sannaysins back in ´85 were in reality like 250.000.
you know like big fish.
Calder’s a cry baby just like Hugh Milne. They had an “ideal” Osho, what a true buddha should be like. Osho frustrated that ideal view, so now they are so bitter, so resentful…. this is the result. Swami Crybaby Calder is his new sannyas name… Any ideas on Hugh Milne’s new name???
Thanks Anthony.
your very welcome anand
If I search for Jayesh in google images..Guess what
Our own Shantam Prem image comes.. So Jayesh and Shantam are one..New twist
I cann´t imagine. I have tried Jayesh in google images, i could not find this shantam prem.
When i wrote shantam prem, there were few shantam´s and one has the prefix Osho before him. Don´t like such Chappatis calling themselves Garlic Butter Nan!
mmmh. shantam, good memories. garlic butter nan … the best
Shantam
Link for you
http://images.google.co.in/images?hl=en&um=1&q=jayesh%2Bosho&sa=N&start=20&ndsp=20
Kranti
there is no such a thing as ´the sannyasins´
sannyas is not a sect
it is the first step toward the Master
who can guide you to your own masterhood..
once you are in tune with the master
you can see that this world
is a madhouse
because of priests and politicians…..
I was personally present
when Osho returned from America
and gave the following speach…
again I´m in tears when I `m reading this.:
maybe now you can understand my rage
and I´m not going to give up
until we have changed this world into a paradies..
once we get rid of these parasites
priests and politicians
Osho:
My beloved ones,
I have been away from you much too long. It has been a very painful absence for me. For seven weeks continuously I have been only filled with your love, your patience, your thirst, your longing.
These days were remarkable in many ways. Seven weeks before, I was infected in the ear. It was a simple thing; according to the best expert available here, Dr. Jog, it cures in four days at the most — but it continued for seven weeks. He has never come across such a case in his life. He could not believe it, because no medicine was working. He tried all kinds of medicines, all kinds of ointments. Finally he had to do an operation, but then the wound of the operation was not healing. Doctor Devageet thought perhaps it was something to do with my teeth — he is my dental surgeon — but nothing was found.
My personal physician, Dr. Amrito, immediately informed all sannyasin doctors around the world and asked them to contact the best experts about poisoning, because his own analysis was that unless I have been poisoned there is no possibility to explain why my body has lost all resistance.
And as this idea became stronger in his mind, step by step he started searching into the matter and he found all the symptoms that can happen only if some kind of poison has been given to me.
I myself had been suspicious about it, but I have never mentioned the fact to anybody. The day I was arrested in America for no valid or even invalid reason, they refused to bail me out — although the United States attorney argued for three days and concluded in the end by saying, “I have not been able to prove anything against him, but neither has the other party been able to prove anything.”
It was hilarious, because the innocent cannot prove his innocence by any means, and no law in the whole world requires that an innocent person should prove his innocence. The burden was on the government of America, which had arrested me, to prove the reason for my arrest.
And even though the United States attorney himself accepted the defeat, still the magistrate denied me bail. I had immediately an intuitive flash — what could be the reason? We offered to the government our own jet plane so that their pilot, their officers, could take me to Oregon because that was where the court had to take the case. The journey was only five or six hours at the most, but the government refused that offer. They said, “Only our airplane will take you.” And their airplane took me to Oregon — a six-hour flight was completed in twelve days.
I was taken from one jail to another jail. In twelve days I had to pass through six jails, all over America.
In Oklahoma my suspicion became a certainty, because I landed in the middle of the night at a silent airport, and the U.S. Marshal himself was there to take charge of me. He himself was driving the car, I was sitting behind him. The man who was giving the charge to him whispered in his ear — which I could hear without any effort, I was just behind him. He said, “This guy is world-famous and all the world news media is focused on him, so don’t do anything directly. Be very careful.”
I started thinking, What is their intention? What do they want to do indirectly? And as I reached the jail their intention became very clear to me.
The U.S. Marshal asked me not to fill in the form with my own name. I should write instead, “David Washington” as my name. I said, “According to what law or constitution are you asking me to do such a stupid thing? I simply refuse, because I am not David Washington.”
He insisted, and he said, “If you don’t sign the name `Washington’ you will have to sit in this cold night on this hard steel bench.”
I asked him, “You are a reasonable man, well educated; can’t you see that it is a stupid thing you are asking me to do?”
He said, “I cannot answer anything. I’m simply fulfilling the orders from above.” And `above’ certainly means Washington, the White House, Ronald Reagan. Seeing the situation — I was tired — I told him, “Let us compromise. You fill in the form, you write whatever name you want to write. I will sign it.”
He filled in the form. David Washington was my name, and I signed my own signature in Hindi. He asked me, “What have you signed?”
I said, “It must be David Washington.” I said, “This will be a reminder to you that anything that you want to do — directly or indirectly — you will be caught. It is with your handwriting that you have written David Washington and it is my signature, which is world-famous and can be recognized without any difficulty. Your whole conspiracy has failed. I can see it clearly in your eyes, in your nervousness, in your trembling hands.”
The idea was that if I write David Washington and sign David Washington, I can be killed, poisoned, shot and there will be no proof that I ever entered the jail. I was brought from the back door of the airport, I entered the jail also from the back door, in the middle of the night so that nobody can be ever aware — and only the U.S. Marshal was present in the office, nobody else.
He took me to the cell and told me to take one of the mattresses, utterly dirty, full of cockroaches. I said to him, “I am not a prisoner. You should behave a little more humanly. And I will need a blanket and a pillow.”
And he simply refused: “No blanket, no pillow. This is all you will get.” And he locked the door of that small, dirty cabin.
Strangely enough, in the early morning at five o’clock he opened the door and he was a completely changed man. I could not believe my eyes, because he had brought a new mattress, a blanket, a pillow. I said, “But in the night you were behaving in such a primitive way. Suddenly you have become so civilized.”
And he offered me breakfast early in the morning — five o’clock. In no other jail I was offered breakfast before nine o’clock. I said, “It is too early — and why are you paying so much attention?”
But he said, “You have to eat it quick, because within five minutes we have to leave for the airport.”
I said, “Then what is the purpose of the mattress and the blanket and the pillow?”
He said nothing and simply closed the door. The breakfast was not much: just two slices of bread soaked in a certain sauce — I could not figure out what it was — tasteless, odorless.
Now, Dr. Amrito feels I was poisoned. Perhaps they poisoned me in all the six jails; that was the purpose of not giving me bail and that was the purpose in taking twelve days to complete a journey of six hours. A slow poisoning which will not kill me immediately, but in the long run it will make me weak — and it has made me weak.
Since those twelve days in the American prisons, all sleep has disappeared. Many things started to happen in the body which were not happening before: disappearance of all appetite, food seeming to be absolutely without taste, a churning feeling in the stomach, nausea, a desire to vomit… no feeling of thirst, but a tremendous sense as if one is uprooted.
Something in the nervous system also seems to have been affected. At times there has been a sensation of tingling all over the body which was very strong — particularly in both my hands — and a twitching of the eyelids.
The day I entered the jail I was one hundred and fifty pounds; today I am only one hundred and thirty pounds. My food is the same, but I have been losing weight for no reason at all. And a subtle weakness… And just three months ago, the bone in my right hand started hurting tremendously.
These are all symptoms of certain poisons. My hair has fallen, my eyesight has become weaker, my beard has become as white as my father’s beard was when he was seventy-five. They have taken away almost twenty years of my life.
Dr. Amrito immediately informed all the doctors who are my sannyasins to approach all the best poison experts in the world. And one of the doctors, Dr. Dhyan Yogi, immediately took my blood samples, urine samples, samples of my hair, and went to England, to Germany, to the best experts. The European experts suggest that after two years there is no poison which can be detected in the body, but all the symptoms show that a certain poison has been given.
No resistance against disease, falling weight without any reason, hair becoming white before its time, hair falling out without any reason, tingling sensations in the extremities, loss of appetite, tastelessness, nausea, the bone pain in my right hand… One of the experts, a doctor from Germany had come twice to check my bone; he could not figure out what kind of disease it is — because there is no disease. The expert here — Dr. Hardikar, a man who loves me — has been here continuously watching for three months and has not been able to figure out why this pain should be there.
The European experts in England and Germany have suggested a name of a certain poison, thallium. It is a poison of a family of poisons of heavy metals. It disappears from the body in eight weeks’ time, but leaves its effects and destroys the body’s resistance against diseases. And all the symptoms that I have told you are part of thallium poisoning.
The American experts have suggested a different poison which they think has been used by governments against rebellious individuals. The name of the poison is synthetic heroin. It is one thousand times more dangerous than ordinary heroin. All the symptoms are the same as with thallium, but the poison is more dangerous and after two years there is no possibility to find any trace of it in the body.
The Japanese experts, who have been working in Hiroshima and Nagasaki on atomic radioactivity, have suggested that these symptoms can also be created in a more sophisticated way by radioactive exposure — either while I was asleep, or food can be exposed to radioactivity and there is no way to find any trace of it.
One of the scientists who is immensely interested in me is coming within a week or two. He has been working for twenty years only on radioactivity. His suggestion is that the Americans, the bureaucracy in America, must have used the most sophisticated poisoning which leaves no trace.
Dr. Amrito’s own research…and he is a genius as far as medical science is concerned. He is a fellow of the Royal Society of Physicians in England, and he is a rare individual in the sense that he is the youngest man ever accepted by the Royal Society of Physicians as a member. He has all the highest qualifications. His own research is about a fourth, very uncommonly used poison. The name of the poison is fluorocarbon. This poison disappears immediately. Even within minutes, you cannot find any trace in the blood, in the urine, but all these symptoms indicate towards it.
It does not matter which poison has been given to me, but it is certain that I have been poisoned by Ronald Reagan’s American government.
There is other circumstantial evidence for it. Because they had no evidence against me — I have not committed any crime — they blackmailed my attorneys, the best in America. The United States attorneys told my attorneys, “If you are interested in Bhagwan’s life, it is better not to go for trial, because you know and we know that he has not committed anything, that all thirty-four charges are false. But in no case will the government of America be willing to be defeated in the court by a single individual.”
They had named the case United States of America versus Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. Now the greatest nation in the world, the greatest power in history, naturally would not like to be defeated in the court by a powerless individual.
My attorneys came to me with tears in their eyes. They said, “We are here to protect you, but it seems impossible. We cannot take the risk to go for trial, because we have been told very directly that your life is at risk. So we have agreed on your behalf to accept two nominal charges, just to give the American government a face-saving device, so that they can fine you and deport you.”
This was just ten minutes before the court was to start, and in the Federal Court, Judge Leavy asked me just about those two charges that had been chosen by my attorneys to be accepted because they were just formalities. It was strange that out of thirty-four charges, Judge Leavy immediately asked me only about those two: “Are you guilty of those two crimes or not?” It is clear that Judge Leavy was also part of the whole conspiracy.
But I am a crazy man of my own type. I simply said, “I am.” And my attorney, Jack Ransom immediately added — he was standing by my side — “guilty.” So on the court record it has become the full sentence, “I am guilty.” I have not said that at all. I would rather be crucified than to accept a false charge.
Outside of the court Jack Ransom told me, “You created such a strange situation. It is good that Judge Leavy has not taken note of it.”
He immediately pronounced his judgment. That too is a strange thing. The judgment has to be written after my acceptance or denial, but the judgment was ready-made. It was there on the table, he simply read it out. Perhaps the judgment was not even written by him. Perhaps it was just given to him.
The judgment was that I was to be fined four hundred thousand dollars. My attorneys were shocked; they could not believe that for those two formal charges, which are false, more than half a crore rupees are fined; deportation from America, for five years no entry, and if I should enter then ten years suspended jail sentence would have to be served. And I was told that I had to take my clothes from the jail immediately and my plane is waiting at the airport. I have to leave American immediately, so that I caonot appeal in a higher court.
I was taken to the jail. The Portland jail is the most sophisticated kind of jail facility. It was recently built; only three months before it had been opened. It is very sophisticated, with all the latest security measures. As I entered the jail, the ground floor was absolutely empty. There were all kinds of offices but there was nobody in those offices.
I asked the man who had taken me to the jail, “What is the reason why the whole ground floor is empty?”
He said, “I don’t know.”
But I looked into his eyes and I could see — he knows.
As I was taken inside there was only one man in one room. The other man immediately left and the man in the room told me to sit on a particular chair. That was also strange because there were so many chairs; I could have chosen any. But he indicated to me that I had to sit on this chair. And he said, “I have to go to get the signature of my boss, so you will have to wait for at least ten, fifteen minutes.”
Later on I came to know that there was no need of any signature of any boss. I myself could see on the form, and I asked the man, “Where is the signature of your boss? There is no need; the only need is my signature that I have received my clothes. No other boss is needed to sign it.”
He was so nervous he was perspiring — in an air-conditioned room. And because he was holding the form in his hand… the form was trembling, the hand was trembling.
As I reached the airport the rumor reached immediately to me that a bomb had been found underneath my chair where I was sitting for fifteen minutes. Perhaps this was the arrangement, that if I insist for trial and don’t accept that I have committed two crimes then it is better to finish me by exploding the bomb. That’s why the whole ground floor was empty. And even the man in the room who was to give me my clothes disappeared in the name of taking the signature of his boss, and locked the room from outside. But because I had accepted the guilt and I had been fined, I had been told to leave America immediately, the bomb was not exploded. He must have gone to enquire what he was supposed to do, because he was not aware what had happened in the court.
One of my attorneys — and also my sannyasin — Swami Prem Niren is present here. I had left him two years before in tears in America, and he is still in tears — tears of love and trust and immense helplessness against the primitive, brutal, and violent heritage of man.
Only such tears give a hope that one day man will be out of the clutches of animality. Niren knows the inside story of what happened to me and my beautiful commune, how brutally they were destroyed because of religious persecution by the fundamentalist, fanatic and bigoted Christians and politicians just because they could not tolerate a beautiful thing happening. They were aware that this was the beginning of the new man and the end of the old, of which they are the representatives. These parasites of the society completely forgot all democratic values and humanitarian concepts when it was a question of their own vested interests being in danger. The commune in Rancho Rajneesh of five thousand sannyasins had exposed the priests and politicians and their conspiracy against humanity as such.
Another one of my attorneys — Bob McCrea, a beautiful man with some understanding of what was happening — told Vivek, my caretaker, after my last appearance in court, “It seems and feels to me that they have done it again. They have crucified Jesus again. I’m sorry and I feel so helpless.”
It is absolutely certain that I had been poisoned, and these seven weeks I have been in an immense struggle.
I don’t have any reason to live in the world. I have experienced, I have realized the very essence of eternal life, but something else forces me to linger on a little more on this shore before leaving for the further shore beyond.
It is you, it is your love.
It is your eyes, it is your hearts.
And when I say `you’ I don’t mean only those who are present here; I also mean all those who are spread all over the earth — my people.
I would like these small sprouts to become trees. I would like to see the spring come to you all, the flowering of your ultimate being, the blissfulness and the ecstasy of enlightenment, the taste of the beyond.
These seven weeks you were not aware… you were simply thinking I was sick. Doctor Premda, my eye surgeon, had immediately rushed from Germany with the recentmost medications, but nothing helped against the poisons except my meditations — the only medicine that can transcend all that belongs to matter.
These seven weeks I have been lying in darkness almost the whole day and night, silently witnessing the body and keeping my consciousness unshadowed by anything.
I was struggling with death.
It was a fight between death and your love.
And you should celebrate that your love has been victorious.
This time Jesus has been crucified in America by Christians themselves.
But there is a strange story that Christians go on hiding from the world. They say that Jesus was crucified and after three days there was resurrection, but they don’t say what happened after resurrection, where Jesus disappeared, whether he died after resurrection or not. If he has not died then he must be around somewhere. But the reality is, after Jesus was taken down from the cross — and he was taken down from the cross only after six hours. The Jewish cross does not kill anybody in six hours; it takes forty-eight hours for any healthy man to die on a Jewish cross. And Jesus was a young man, thirty-three years old; six hours could not kill him, there is no possibility.
It was a certain arrangement between the disciples of Jesus and Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea where the Jews insisted that Jesus should be crucified. Pontius Pilate was not willing, because the man was innocent. But politicians are politicians. They cannot annoy the masses; they depend on the masses. Unwillingly, he gave the orders for Jesus’ crucifixion but he made arrangements that the crucifixion should be on Friday and should be delayed for as long as possible. So in the afternoon Jesus was crucified.
Jews stop all work by the evening as the sun sets on Friday for their sabbath. Saturday they don’t work at all. Because of this tradition Pontius Pilate and Jesus’ disciples took advantage of the situation. Jesus had to be brought down from the cross because it was against the Jewish idea of sabbath; he would have to be crucified again after the sabbath was over.
He was kept in a cave which was guarded by a Roman soldier, not by a Jew, and in the night he was taken out from the cave. He was not dead… and the most surprising thing is that he escaped from Judea and he died in India. His grave is in Kashmir in a small village, Pahalgam. I have been to his grave. It is the only grave in India on which there is an inscription in Hebrew. The inscription says, “Joshua, the prophet of the Jews lies here in eternal sleep.” Joshua is Jesus’ real name, his Hebrew name. Jesus is his Greek name.
He lived a long life in India, one hundred and twelve years. And pahalgam in Kashmiri means “the village of the shepherd.” Jesus used to call himself the shepherd, and he had gone there with his disciples — because of him, the village became known as Pahalgam.
The story is repeated again. I was crucified-this time in America… and these seven weeks I have been struggling against the poison.
And I am happy to declare to you that the crucifixion is over and I am resurrected.
It is symbolic that Jesus is crucified this time in America and is resurrected in India. It is symbolic in many dimensions. It is the victory of love over hate. It is the victory of life over death. It is the victory of East over West. It is the victory of truth over criminals like Ronald Reagan. It is the victory of consciousness over body.
These seven weeks I have been only thinking of you.
It would have been immensely painful for me to leave you in this beautiful state when you have started growing upwards.
My garden is still a nursery.
I would leave the body rejoicingly the day I see you all have blossomed and you have released your fragrance and you have attained your destiny. The day I see the great pilgrimage — from here to here, from crucifixion to resurrection — is over for you all then I can go with a dancing heart and melt into the universal consciousness.
And I will be waiting there for you still.
It is certainly of tremendous importance that even after twenty centuries a man like Jesus will be crucified by Christians themselves. It was a conspiracy of the fundamentalist Christians of America and Ronald Reagan.
Perhaps civilization is still an idea — it has not happened in reality.
I would like my people to transform themselves and through them I would like to bring authentic civilization and humanity to this beautiful planet.
There is only one religion, and that is the religion of love.
There is only one God, and that is the God of celebration, of life, of rejoicing.
This whole earth is one and the whole humanity is one. We are parts of each other.
I have no complaint against those who have poisoned me. I can forgive them easily. They certainly do not know what they go on doing.
It is said that history repeats itself. It is not history that repeats itself; it is the unconsciousness of man, the blindness of man that repeats itself. The day man will be conscious, alert and aware, there will not be any repetition anymore. Socrates will not be poisoned, Jesus will not be crucified, Al-Hillaj Mansoor will not be murdered and butchered. And these are our best flowers, they are our highest peaks. They are our destinies, they are our future. They are our intrinsic potential which has become actual.
I am sure you will not have any anger in your hearts or any hatred for anyone, but just an understanding and a loving forgiveness.
That is the only authentic prayer. And only this kind of prayerfulness can raise humanity to higher levels of consciousness.
I have absolute inner certainty: they may have been able to poison my body, my nervous system, but they cannot destroy my consciousness, they cannot poison my being. And it was good that they have given me a chance to see myself beyond my body, beyond my mind.
These seven weeks have been a fire test. Without your knowing you have always, each moment of these seven weeks, been a tremendous help to me. Without your love it would not have been possible for me to overcome the poison, because without your love there would be no need for me even to struggle. I am fulfilled and absolutely contented; I have arrived home. But I see you are stumbling, groping, and it will be very heartless and uncompassionate for me to leave you in this situation. I would like in all your lives a sunrise, the birds singing and the flowers opening. Other than that, I don’t have any reason to be here at all.
Remember it: I am here for you.
That remembrance will help you not to go astray. That remembrance will help you to be aware of the uncivilized world in which we are living, in this madhouse that we call humanity. It will go on reminding you that we have to give birth to a new man and to a new humanity.
This is the tremendous challenge. Those who have guts and intelligence and a desire and a longing to touch the farthest stars… only those very few people have been able to understand me, have been able to become my fellow travelers. I don’t have any followers — I have only lovers and friends and fellow travelers.
I would like you all to reach to the same beatitude, to the same blissfulness, to the same ecstasy that has become my very heartbeat. It is also the heartbeat of the whole universe.
Osho, Jesus Crucified, This Time in Ronald Reagan’s America
“This is the tremendous challenge. Those who have guts and intelligence and a desire and a longing to touch the farthest stars… only those very few people have been able to understand me, have been able to become my fellow travelers. I don’t have any followers — I have only lovers and friends and fellow travelers.
I would like you all to reach to the same beatitude, to the same blissfulness, to the same ecstasy that has become my very heartbeat. It is also the heartbeat of the whole universe.”
Fellow travelers to readers, ashram to resort….. it must be a valley after the peak and most probably it must be the winter before the spring comes again.
Titel of this link is
Is Osho being restricted by Sannyas?
Is it not like asking, whether pea cock is being restricted by his feathers, whether Rose is being restricted by its throans!
Osho without sannyasins & communes, sannyasins without passion and meditations….Hey Ram Hey Ram Hey Ram*
” This is the tremendous challenge. Those who have guts and intelligence and a desire and a longing to touch the farthest stars… only those very few people have been able to understand me, have been able to become my fellow travelers. I don’t have any followers — I have only lovers and friends and fellow travelers ”
Meera.. May I ask you something
When Osho said this.. he knew what he was talking and He knew who those people are .. Didnt he ? Do we accept Osho’s intelligence ?
Hi,
How you all get time to type your views..
dont you anything else to do….
Wish you happy Gibrish….
What’s your excuse Deepak?
” Hi,
How you all get time to type your views..
dont you anything else to do….
Wish you happy Gibrish….”
We find time Deepak.. Osho asked to do Gibberish everyday..Let it out ..dont keep the junk inside..
Deepak, what a smart ass you are!
“I would like you all to reach to the same beatitude, to the same blissfulness, to the same ecstasy that has become my very heartbeat. It is also the heartbeat of the whole universe.”
What a compassion, what a challenge from our coach.
Osho as a master as an entrepreneur wants as many people to enjoy the flight experience as possible but the new owner cum CFO wants only the executive class.
The result, airline is inching towards bankruptcy because of clashes in philosophy.