Will this Ashram become the Head Office of a New Business?

Sannyasnews publish this question from Osho’s book “Philosophia Perennis” at the request of a reader as having relevance to current debates in sannyas.

QUESTION TO OSHO FROM JAMES P.THOMAS …

BUDDHA, MAHAVIRA, MOHAMMED AND CHRIST WERE ENLIGHTENED MAN. THEY TRIED TO TEACH THEIR DISCIPLES THE METHODS TO BECOME ENLIGHTENED. THEY WANTED TO FORM AN ENDLESS CHAIN OF ENLIGHTENED PEOPLE, AND, INSTEAD OF BECOMING ENLIGHTENED, ALMOST ALL OF THEM TRIED TO BE CUNNING ENOUGH TO CHEAT THE COMMON PEOPLE BY MAKING LARGE SCALE BUSINESS FIRMS BEHIND THESE GREAT MEN. WILL YOU EXPLAIN THE REASON FOR THIS? WILL THIS ASHRAM BECOME THE HEAD OFFICE OF SUCH A NEW BUSINESS?

OSHO’S ANSWER

James P. Thomas,
Everything that is born dies… The flower that is in the morning, full of life and juice, by the evening will be gone. It is a natural law: nothing can live for ever. In time, things appear and disappear. In time, everything is just a soap-bubble. You don’t condemn the morning flower just because by the evening the petals will have withered away, or do you? You don’t condemn the sunrise because once the sunrise has happened the sunset is coming closer.

When there is a Buddha, a flower blooms. But it cannot remain for ever — that is not the way of time. The flower will disappear. And man is cunning, and man is calculating. A few cunning and calculating people will gather around; they will make a business out of it — that too is natural. When a Buddha is not there, whatsoever he has done is bound to become a business. But that is NO reason for a Buddha to stop doing whatsoever he is doing. Even knowing perfectly well that things will deteriorate, a Buddha tries with all his heart — he lives his light, he shares his light, he lives his love, he shares his love. And
those who are receptive enough become enlightened. Those who are intelligent absorb the energy of the Buddha, and are transformed through it. They don’t bother about what is going to happen later on; there is no question of bothering.

James P. Thomas, you are here — rather than becoming a sannyasin you are worried about what will happen later on: Will the ashram become the head office a new business? It is bound to become. It has always been so, it will always be so. Before it becomes one, you become a sannyasin. While I am here, let me transform you. And why should you be worried about the future? There will be future Buddhas too. They always go on happening.

So those who want to become enlightened, seek and search for a living Buddha. And they are always around; the earth has never lacked them. Sometimes a Jesus, sometimes a Mahavira, sometimes a Mohammed, sometimes a Pythagoras — they are always there. Those who are thirsty, they always find them. But there are millions who are not thirsty. Those millions who are not thirsty, they also want to pretend that they are thirsty. It is these millions who are not thirsty and yet want to pretend that they are religious, seekers of truth — they become the victims of the cunning and the clever people, of the priests.

The priests succeed in exploiting because there are people who want to be exploited. It is a perfect arrangement. The priest cannot make a business out of religion if there are real seekers — they will see through it; they cannot be deceived. But in fact there are millions of people who don’t want to know the truth and yet are not ready to accept that they don’t want to know the truth. That hurts. For these people, plastic truths are needed. For these people, plastic flowers are needed. And plastic flowers have one thing about them: they never wither away.

This is something to be understood: the false has a longer life than truth, because the false adjusts to the process of time; it is part of it. The true comes from the beyond; it is not part of time, it is part of eternity. It does not belong to time. It enters into time, but it is a foreigner. Time cannot absorb it, and it cannot adjust itself to time. So it is only for a moment that you see the light of a Buddha… and then it disappears. It is only for a rare moment that eternity gives a glimpse into the world of time.

That’s how a real flower dies. But the plastic flower remains. In fact, now scientists, particularly those who are interested in NOT polluting nature, those who are ecology oriented, are very much worried about plastic — because plastic is something that never dies. It cannot be absorbed back by the earth; it will remain for ever and ever. You throw away a plastic bag or anything that is made of plastic — it will remain. The earth cannot reabsorb it, the sea cannot reabsorb it. It is SO unreal that it will persist. Lies persist for thousands of years; lies have their own ways of remaining, because they adjust to time, they are part of time. But truth is something strange in the world of time. It is timelessness. It is a miracle that once in a while it expresses itself in the dimension of time — it is a miracle. The Buddha, the Christ — these are miracles… something that should not be, something that is going against the law of necessity; something that follows the law of power, of grace, and comes from the beyond. That ray comes and goes.

Millions of people want to pretend to be religious. These are the people who go to the churches and to the mosques and to the temples and the guruwadas. These are the people who want religion cheap. They want only a formal kind of religion — a Sunday religion. They don’t really want to become committed; they are playing a game. And the game seems to pay in their mundane life — the churchgoer is respected, and the person who is respected can cheat better than anybody else. The churchgoer is thought to be religious; nobody thinks that he will deceive, hence he can deceive more easily. The church fits with the marketplace perfectly well; it is part of the market-place. Jesus was always a misfit; otherwise, why did people crucify him? People have never crucified priests; they have always crucified Buddhas. A Socrates is dangerous, disturbing, shocking; but the priest is perfectly good — consoling, helping to make your life easier through his lies. His lies function as buffers, shock-absorbers. He helps you in every possible way to live the false, pseudo life that you are living. He helps you to forget all about truth, and he gives you truth and God in such cheap ways that you need not risk
anything at all.

By being a Christian you don’t risk, by being a Hindu you don’t risk. By being a follower of Jesus, you were risking. To be with me is a risk! To be with the Shankaracharya is not a risk. To be with me is costly, it will create a thousand and one problems for you. Unless one is REALLY committed to truth, REALLY involved, REALLY thirsty and hungry for God, one cannot be here around me.

But millions of people want plastic flowers. Plastic flowers are very convenient; you need not grow them; you need not take the trouble of growing them. To grow real flowers is troublesome: think of the soil, prepare the ground, bring the manure and the fertilizers and water, and then protect. And then too it always remains unpredictable what is going to happen.

Plastic flowers are perfectly convenient; ready-made you get them. No soil is needed, no preparation, no gardening — nothing of the sort. And they don’t fade away. Once in a while you can give them a good bath, and they will be again as fresh as ever. They only collect dust, that’s all; dust can be washed away.

That’s how beliefs are — plastic flowers. But millions of people want plastic flowers, hence the priest can exploit you. Remember always one of the most fundamental laws of economics: wherever there is a demand, there will be a supply. Because the false is demanded, there are falsifiers.

And this is a natural process. I am not saying, I cannot say, that my place will not become a business one day — it is going to become. Meanwhile, Thomas, if you are really interested, use the opportunity that I AM and don’t bother about these things. You must have been around Jesus too — there WAS a Thomas… he is known as doubting Thomas. His name has become a symbol of doubt. You must have been around Buddhas and you must have been asking the same question! And you are again asking the same question.

What is YOUR worry? A few people want to be cheated, and a few people want to cheat — so it is perfectly okay! What is wrong in it? If there is nobody to cheat you, what will happen to those who want to be cheated? They will feel very miserable. They will not be able to live their lives as they want to live them. So nothing is wrong; they play a game of hide-and-seek. If you want to play the game of hide-and-seek, then there are many businesses around. And you must be part of some church, of some religion, of some creed.

Every truth, sooner or later, will be organized. And the moment it is organized, it dies.
There is a famous story:

A disciple of the Devil came running to him and said, “What are you doing here? One man — look down on the earth, sitting under that tree — has become enlightened! He has found the truth. Our whole business is at stake, and what are you doing here? We have to DO something!”
Certainly, if somebody finds truth, then the Devil’s whole existence is at stake — he lives on lies. But the disciple must have been a new disciple, just a learner. The old Devil laughed and he said, “Don’t you be worried. Let him find it — we will organize, and once a truth is organized, it dies.”

And all truths will be organized. There is no way to protect them, there is no way to make safeguards; there is no possibility. Every truth will be organized. Every truth will become a religion.

So the only way for the perceptive is: while the Buddha is there, drink of him as much as you can, and forget all about what is going to happen later on. This is the only intelligent way.

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727 Responses to Will this Ashram become the Head Office of a New Business?

  1. shantam prem says:

    “While the Buddha is there, drink of him as much as you can, and forget all about what is going to happen later on. This is the only intelligent way.”

    When Osho was there, we(roughly half million) have drunk as much as we could.
    Now what to do with the situation when only handful claims that they got the real wine, rest had only the apple juice!

  2. frank says:

    sure,everyone drunk as much as much as we could.
    and jackassnews is the rehab!!

  3. Kranti says:

    Perhaps the answer for the question you asked is here in this thread Shantam..

    ” And all truths will be organized. There is no way to protect them, there is no way to make safeguards; there is no possibility. Every truth will be organized. Every truth will become a religion”

    Having said the discussion can again go in the same patterns quoting Osho in a context..

  4. sam.ba. says:

    Just one thing i want to add:
    this answer has been gived in 1978!! Before Oregon,Rolls Royce,ecc…
    So already at the beginning he know the end!

  5. Kranti says:

    What about ‘ After Oregon , Rolls.. ‘ There was beautiful Pune 2.. Wasnt it?

  6. prem bubbie says:

    What about pre-1978,then he drove around in a mercedes- so what?!!!! A “Luxury” automobile is still a “Luxury” auto. How about if it were a Ferrari? A Lamborghini?? Would a rickshaw even be too much?? Give me a break!!!!!!

  7. shantam prem says:

    ” And all truths will be organized. There is no way to protect them, there is no way to make safeguards; there is no possibility. Every truth will be organized. Every truth will become a religion”

    When the reality is like this, than as a disciples it becomes our sacred calling to organize the structure in a way, that many many branches are interwoven together in a harmony.

    When every truth is going to become a religion, at least we can allow the process in its most aesthetic form.

    and we should not forget the fact that Osho has an advantage to be born in a technically smart age. Every word and day to day happenings around him are on record.

    People like to bow down before some higher force. Even if it is a imaginary thing, it brings strength to the human heart.
    People who don’t understand this vital psychological need are like fuckers who don’t know what love is all about.

    I feel with Osho we have grown enough intelligence and sensitivity that chances of His work becoming a seat of exploitation are minimum.
    In that sense J&A team is doing a tremendous service, they may seem hard and dry but at least they are not using Osho as a tool of self gratification.

    This hard and dry attitude needs a bit of oiling, bit of understanding for human heart and its complexities, and we have a first world class spiritual play ground where flowers can blossom years long.

  8. Kranti says:

    ” When every truth is going to become a religion, at least we can allow the process in its most aesthetic form”

    How is the question?

    ” In that sense J&A team is doing a tremendous service, they may seem hard and dry but at least they are not using Osho as a tool of self gratification.”

    Agree on this..

  9. shantam prem says:

    “How” is the question?
    J&A team needs to soften their stand, their complete control over the affairs of Osho is alinating the intelligentia developed under His presence. The middle level business buddies of Jayesh from New york and LA can never NEVER replace the people who were hanging around with Osho for decades.
    They must understand that they are not the only inheritors of Osho.
    They need to understand the involvement of His people in day to day affairs and in decision making body.
    J&A need to look at their psychological flaws. When was the last time they ever participated in therapy group.
    I am not sure, during the last 22 years of Mystic Rose, Jayesh or Amrito have ever participated.

    As it happens the burden of heavy responsibilities make people dry and control freak. If just these two gentlemen remember for a second the love and strength of His people, face of 17 koregaon park will be totally different. Right now it is a rich man’s castle but without the child like flavour and its playfulness.

  10. Heraclitus says:

    You miss the point that your Master is making, Shantam Prem. The only thing that matters is your enlightenment. What is happening in Koregaon Park is totally irrelevant to that.
    Make that your priority and everything else will fall into place, and the temporal matter of the present ashram will become irrelevant.

  11. shantam prem says:

    The only thing that matters is your enlightenment….

    I think most of us are trying full heartily almost like a women in late 30′s, early 40′s, who want to be mothers and nothing else….

    May God opens his flood gates of love to impregnate all of us, who are looking for this to happen.
    Amen!!

  12. Satya Deva says:

    Have to support Heraclitus’s view here…

    So much waste of time and energy on what are now reduced to essentially ‘political’ matters…(including the role of the obvious charlatan, ‘Osho Rajneesh’).

    And on debating ‘what Osho would have wanted’…

    Osho’s gone and in a way, that’s that, folks!
    To go on and on about what he would have wanted, questioning who ‘really understood’ him is a total cul-de-sac, equivalent to thinking there has to be a ‘successor’, a completely hopeless, fruitless struggle.

  13. Satya Deva says:

    PS: Substitute ‘futile’ for ‘fruit;ess’ above.

  14. Satya Deva says:

    Or even for ‘fruitless’!

  15. Kranti says:

    Yes.. I am agreeing with Heraclitus and Satya Deva on this point as far as ultimate growth of an individual is concerned .. It is irrelevant for the Individual what is happening in Pune . He should be flowing towards the place where he can grow rather than focusing on one place or even one master for that purpose..

    But seeing Shantam post here for the last few months what I understand is , he wants PUNE to be THE place for that Individual to go and express himself freely and He doesnt want to see any restrictions there.. The attachment and Love for the master makes him say that he wants to see PUNE to be more like PUNE 2.

    To be honest i started off in the same way..But seeing the futility of such efforts and waste of energy which otherwise can be directed towards Inner i am relaxing now and sometiems beginning to even see that ‘ things are kind alright as they are ‘

  16. meera says:

    Poona resort is the best and only place
    to get away from your old and rotten society

    and to feel free
    to
    work on yourself

    nowhere in the world
    you can find a space like this

    only the people inside
    don´t contribute much to
    the growth of osho´s vision
    and to their own growth

    most people are childish and selfish

    the therapy business … most of it.. is just stupid

    there are no encounter -and leela groups
    as it used to be in the 70th

    no energy at all

    never ever anything comes out of this socalled therapy
    only more dependency ..no freedom at all

    people rermain the same..horizontal…..

    the managament should go into the hands of an enlightened leadership.
    . they should watch over it
    that no inhuman act happens inside
    and contribute
    their love and benediction
    to suffering humanity

  17. Satya Deva says:

    So, Meera, who would be ‘enlightened enough’ for you then?!

    You wouldn’t be on an utterly futile quest for ‘perfection’, would you?!

  18. Kranti says:

    Meera.. Enlightened people will drop Osho and deliver their message..So you will not see anything Osho. Are you ok with it?

  19. meera says:

    englightenment is beyond your conception

    unless yourself becomes enlightened

    you will never know what it is..

  20. Kranti says:

    There is no such thing as enlightenment

  21. meera says:

    kranti
    you are a new sannyasin

    you hardly know anything from osho

    you are looking for a master
    and you wanna start teaching
    US here?”
    thats totally rediculous

  22. shantam prem says:

    “the managament should go into the hands of an enlightened leadership.”

    This is ridiculous. If someone thinks he is enlightend should make his own contribution in his way.

    For sure, he must take care that after his death his legacy is not going the dog’s way.

    Osho’s work should be taken care by His 20 people from different countries and back grounds and atleas future blood must make the way that no single individual or group have the complete control over the affairs.

    Satya deva, as you have written-
    And on debating ‘what Osho would have wanted’…

    There is no need for such debate. He was not speaking in telegraphic language but in very graphic way and if disciples are still in doubt after thousands of spoken talks, than it was a useless task form his side.
    Conformists have their way, non confirmists have their way.
    But to see confirmist energy in the school of Osho is as surprising as to see a monk getting born in the family of mafia boss.

    You miss the point that your Master is making, Shantam Prem. The only thing that matters is your enlightenment.

    Thanks for reminding this my dear Heraclitus.
    what i am writing here is a part of the thesis for the exam of enlightenment.

    what to do, Mantra singing is not my subject.

  23. Kranti says:

    ‘ what i am writing here is a part of the thesis for the exam of enlightenment. ”

    For exam results and enlightenment degree certificate please log on to http://www.oshodhara.com and print for yourself.. You can take as many prints you want in as many names as possible.. No legal constraints..

  24. Anthony thompson says:

    Fellows. enlightenment is a metaphor.
    An abstraction in language, that becomes a reality by shared understanding. That is, you are as enlightened as people believe you to be.

    Rajneesh was not enlightened last year… more over he was angry when people said he was enlightened… but this year… well, so many people believing so… then it must be true!!
    That is the way it happens. In the same way that the prettiest girl in town is decided… shared understanding.

    Enlightenment is a Buddhist term, that it is used as eastern propaganda.
    the problem with enlightened leadership is that who is going to decide?
    For instance meera thinks she is enlightened. But no one here thinks so…. therefore she is not enlightened as far we are concerned.

    Enlightenment is a deficiency trip… you think something is lacking.

  25. Kranti says:

    Even if you accept that there is a enlightenment Osho and other Buddhas clearly said it is not something whch happens to an individual mind.. So technically also there is no one who is enlightened.. It is just complete dis-identification from forms by awareness itself.. So no one can go bragging about his enlightenment… How complete it can be seems to be subjective ..Thats is we have so many theories about what it is ..Otherwise every enlightened body-mind has to talk and share in the same way..But that is not the case… Oops!! All theory..

  26. shantam prem says:

    Anthony, let us make the logic complete. Enlightenment is a deficiancy trip, you think aquaring a degree from the uninversity is not a deficiancy trip, don’t you see that Bill Gates fullfilled a certain deficiancy by creating a record of a kind.
    What you will be without having the degree in Psychology, or where pope the Benedict will stand without the authority bestowed by his system.

    For Osho it was used million and one times, ” self appointed Godman”.
    Atleast such people dare to break the norms of the established patterns and in the process create history for themselves and self esteem and employment opportunites for many.

  27. Kranti says:

    Anyone keen on the subject , this is an interesting website..eliminating jargons and explaining it in simple terms & logically also.. Very honest approach..

    http://www.kiloby.com/

  28. Kranti says:

    ” don’t you see that Bill Gates fullfilled a certain deficiancy by creating a record of a kind.”

    It certainly is a deficiency trip ..Any trip where you ask for more or move an inch outwards is a deficiency trip..

    ” Atleast such people dare to break the norms of the established patterns and in the process create history for themselves ”

    They dont create history..they just drop out of the RAT race anf time

  29. Kranti says:

    Thats why we refer to Osho in the present tense and also say ‘ Never born , never died ‘.. So there is no history as far as they are concerned.. Ofcourse from the eyes of others there is a history

  30. Kranti says:

    Talking about rat race i quote the famous saying

    ‘ The trouble with the rat race is that even if you win, you’re still a rat.’ — Lily Tomlin

  31. shantam prem says:

    Kranti,

    If i pass the exam of enlighenment it will be also a self proclaimed degree. to get degree from oshodhara or someone else is too simple a process, it is like seeker of love goes to a pro and after half an hour and 100 Euro thinks to find the love experience.

    Osho has fullfilled this much gas in the deficiancy of his disciples that many of us are daring to walk alone on the uncharted paths.

    And from Osho i mean not the man, not His discourses but the whole package he offered to us, one of its kind package full with his magnificant photos, songs, hugs, dance, love, betrayal, jealousy new love, power struggle, groups, esoteric hoch pouch, meditations, surrunder and so many other such spices shared by the people of the earth in a mystery school at a time when information technology was million times slower.

  32. frank says:

    tony,
    expounding one`s thoughts on jackassnews.

    is that a “deficiency trip”?

  33. shantam prem says:

    Deficiancy trip?

    what a nice word.

    I wonder who on the earth was/is free from this Vitamin Deficiancy?

    Anthony, just three names from any branch of human history who were born without this thing called “deficiancy trip” from the countless billions who died or are living.

  34. Anthony thompson says:

    getting a degree or anything you do not have is a deficiency trip in one way or another. If you go get a degree is because you feel “degreeless”, so to speak.

    The problem with enlightenment is that you want to get…

    what?

    You feel enlightenmentless?

    What is enlightenment?

    the lack of the feeling of deficiency?

    So you develop a deficiency for the lack of deficiency?

    …see the catch?

    So perhpas is the lack of ego you feel deficient?
    so you want to get enlightened so you do not feel you have too much ego?

    So you develop a deficiency for the lack of ego deficiency?
    there is no answer to this.

    to desire enlightenment is to desire to be desireless?
    but ins´t desire a desire?

    Eastern propaganda… that is all. you can become more and more aware, you can awake to levels of unawareness… but that is all. You never reach a summit called enlightenment… there is no such thing.

  35. shantam prem says:

    Eastern propaganda?

    Do you mean, Anthony, Osho was the poster boy of this Eastern Propaganda?

  36. Anthony thompson says:

    In a way, yes, he was. A perfect poster boy. dressed in a science fiction drag queen robe.
    … and I think he knew it Very well.
    He once said. “master is not one who has achieved anything. A master is someone who knows that there is nothing to achieve”

  37. shantam prem says:

    and do you think, will it be again that someone from the east will allure the intelligentia not just high school drop out sweeties of the west with this illusiory product, or the sons and daughters of the west will rise to the occasion and create their own market for this thing called enlightenment.

    I think it is much more nicer to be raped/cheated/lootedby the boy next door than to face the same situation in the hands of Mr. Brownies!

  38. shantam prem says:

    Anthony and also Why Dr. Amrito kind of well educated and Jayesh kind of businessmen devote their life to promote/protect the legacy of this poster boy, who was selling the eastern propaganda.

    What is that which is lacking in the western civilization that people sit at the feet of Mr. Brownies and fullfill all their worldly wishes?
    There must be some inbuilt deficiancy?

  39. Anthony thompson says:

    Osho´s legacy and scope is way beyond getting to a place called enlightenment.
    It is about awareness,
    it is about growth, about living life fully,
    about having a good time,
    about not denying ones own nature,
    about rejoicing in being alive,
    about understanding the workings of your own mind,
    about developing your potentialities,
    about about having great sex… or a lot of it,
    about dancing,
    about going in,
    about taking risks.,
    about dropping ready made answers,
    about not looking for absolute truths,
    . About living life as it is,
    about being present moment to moment,
    about making your life a beautiful trip…
    about being REALLY ALIVE!!

    enlightenment was just the carrot hanging in from of the sannysins faces. the real deal was the journey. the experiment he put us all through!

  40. Anthony thompson says:

    AND WHAT AN EXPERIMENT!!
    EVEN AN OLD THICK MINDED PROFESSOR LIKE ME GOT A SHOT AT IT.

  41. prem bubbie says:

    About great sex…or a lot of it” Tony thompson … how about a lot of not so great herpes…. hiv, …. hepatitis b…… too much unconscious sex…. fucking anything that moves has help spread theses plagues. Time for practicality and common sense… hey? Finding one’s true nature is the only thing that matters. The rest is chump change.

  42. Shanti says:

    hey…girl.. we were both at the ranch! lets not complain about it!
    Fucking anything that moves also can give you a nice smile… do not be so miser… we had a good time!

  43. shantam prem says:

    You have described very very nicely Anthony, about the legacy of Osho.
    It will be again a matter of discussion whether the Apple corporation working in his name is keeping that tradition of innovation alive or they have gone side track…

    enlightenment was just the carrot hanging in from of the sannysins faces. the real deal was the journey. the experiment he put us all through!…

    Who will put the generation next into the experiments..?”

    Some one like Samdarshi, Samarpan or rajneesh or the world famous resort where in high season one is blessed enough to do Kundalini with approximately 425 people.

  44. Shanti says:

    Shantamy… who cares? those who are thirsty will find a well. we found ours… drunk from it… if it gets dry… so be it!
    But ours is still pouring…

  45. shantam prem says:

    Shanti.. i hope we His people will continue the tradition of nice smiles; commune, ashram, resort, airport or any villaege or city anywhere in the world.

    Looking forward to see you smiling, Pune 2010!!

  46. frank says:

    sounds good,tony.
    but what about brian?
    he ticks all the boxes too.

    having a good time….
    lots of sex( hot-dogger)
    taking risks…..
    dancing…
    living life……
    brian`s been to some cool places,too…
    etc etc etc…..

    maybe brian is just another guy sitting on the back of donkeys waving carrots in front of their noses,too…….

    those donkeys will get to have a shot at it a wild life as well!
    have you ever surrendered to a dodgy guru in a lunghi,tony?
    see,they will experience something you dont know anything about at all…..

    if there`s no enlightenment,then any guy who waves a carrot and gets people off their ass will do.
    so how could anyone be a fraud?
    even oshodada will do…..

    and what about psychotherapy?
    self-actualisation
    growth
    increased awareness
    etc
    those carrots are expensive also.
    more than lidl for sure…..

  47. Anthony thompson says:

    lovely to have you as the devil´s advocate… Frank.
    But, it is the first time said that counts…
    Edison, turned on the first light bulb… I turn it also on everyday… but no one will remember me for that… mmmh
    besides, the rajneesh fellow is just cheesy to the maximum. That could be tolerated with Osho´s robes beacuse of what he was saying and the originality of all the approach
    But rajneesh…ha, ha. I just love it. I recently saw a video of his slow walk with a bunch of Russians behind…it was so funny the way he moved and everybody else behind it.
    Even my girlfriend likes him now!

  48. frank says:

    tony,
    careful,your girlfriend might be dreaming about hot-dogs!
    but those russians are having the time of their life.
    how daft did sannyasins look in 70s and 80s?
    very daft indeed.
    i`m sure that there was no shortage of psychology professors and experts of all sorts,lining up to laugh at and ridicule then,……
    who gave a toss?
    not me.

  49. Anthony thompson says:

    well, Frank, to be frank.. rhetoric is one thing…
    but Brianness is another. I am not laughing at rajneesh for proclaiming himself enlightened or having a following. I laugh at him for doing it through imitation.
    I have been to other so called enlightened sannysins… and i have nothing negative to say about that… their own trip, I suppose…
    as far as my girlfriend… well, you only dream of hot-dogs when you are hungry…

  50. frank says:

    “you only dream of hot dogs when you are hungry…”
    i knew it…
    you are a freudian….
    i hope he was right……..

  51. Satya Deva says:

    Anthony thompson // Nov 3, 2009 at 9:26 pm

    Osho´s legacy and scope is way beyond getting to a place called enlightenment.
    It is about awareness,
    it is about growth, about living life fully,
    about having a good time,
    about not denying ones own nature,
    about rejoicing in being alive,
    about understanding the workings of your own mind,
    about developing your potentialities,
    about about having great sex… or a lot of it,
    about dancing,
    about going in,
    about taking risks.,
    about dropping ready made answers,
    about not looking for absolute truths,
    . About living life as it is,
    about being present moment to moment,
    about making your life a beautiful trip…
    about being REALLY ALIVE!!

    enlightenment was just the carrot hanging in from of the sannysins faces. the real deal was the journey. the experiment he put us all through!

    But this doesn’t sound a lot different from the ‘normal’ propaganda of what used to be termed the ‘human potential movement’, Anthony.

    Apart from the communal (in the broadest sense) aspect of sannyas, surely Osho was offering something else…?

    Demystify ‘enlightenment’, yes, by all means…But I think this can be taken too far so we end up imagining we’re really pretty spiritual, when we’re actually not….

    I well recall, for example, Ma Yoga Sudha, an absolutely outstanding therapist and group leader, who inspired many (including myself) with her insight, aliveness, compassion and humour, before she took sannyas in its early days (and remained one of the ‘big names’ until her premature death last year)…I well recall her saying that before coming across ‘Bhagwan’ she’d thought she’d gone very deep and was therefore pretty ‘special’, but that in front of him she’d realised she’d been merely “wading in the shallows”….

    Perhaps it’s hard for us to accept that, as in fields of worldly expertise, spiritual evolution is not a democracy, it’s an aristocracy, meaning that a Master is actually in a qualitatively different inner space than the rest of us:

    never unhappy, never ‘run’ by aberrant emotions, never afraid, for a start….

    It’s all very well for us to talk of being ‘nothing’, but these people have realised it, every moment.

    As Prem Bubbie (I think) pointed out (above) that list of sensual and other delights can easily become a menu of more suffering, an excuse for even more unconsciousness…

    And I notice that list doesn’t include meditation either….

  52. Satya Deva says:

    Anthony Thompson wrote:
    Fellows. enlightenment is a metaphor.
    An abstraction in language, that becomes a reality by shared understanding. That is, you are as enlightened as people believe you to be.

    Anthony, I’m as ignorant as the next man, but I think that statement is sheer, unadulterated nonsense.

    Convenient nonsense, maybe, but still nonsense!

    I suggest you read, for example, Barry Long’s ‘Origins of Man and the Universe’ for further clarification.

  53. Satya Deva says:

    Just one more note:
    It seems to me that the only true witness and judge of a person’s ‘enlightenment’ is that person, no one else.

    Inconvenient perhaps, but seems the case to me…

    Of course, others will have their opinions of the person….

  54. Anthony thompson says:

    what is the essence of meditation if it is not awareness?
    it was top of my list. Actually i could have just kept that… but I went as it came… and then I thought of more.
    Osho had something unexplainable for me. A presence, a vibe, i do not know. I understand what sudha said… I knew her too.
    May be that is what is called enlightenment… I do not know…
    But in my own experience in life everything is a flux, so the possibility of getting somewhere, seems like a metaphor. Osho despite that presence was a manipulative fellow, who twisted facts, invented stories and denied facts.
    However I do not judge him for that… I do that too sometimes.
    I have been to many masters and not one of them was who he said he was… what to do!
    By the way. the questions you asked me I answered them in the previous thread.

  55. Satya Deva says:

    And what about ‘impersonal love’, while on the qualities of ‘higher consciousness’…?

    With Osho, we sensed something just, well, qualitatively different from anyone we’d ever come across before…

    Silence, vastness, infinite compassion, wisdom, total restfulness…

    But he had to pass through ‘death’ (emotional and psychological death, Barry Long calls it), it’s not merely all ‘beer and skittles’, as some seem to like to present it as, is it?!

  56. Anthony thompson says:

    Buy… do not quote larry bong. What is your own personal experience with the matter?
    because this is what i have been speaking about.

  57. Anthony thompson says:

    ok. gotta go. continue tomorrow

  58. Satya Deva says:

    Anthony Thompson:
    Osho despite that presence was a manipulative fellow, who twisted facts, invented stories and denied facts.
    However I do not judge him for that… I do that too sometimes.
    I have been to many masters and not one of them was who he said he was… what to do!

    Prerogative of a Master, isn’t it, Anthony? Say, do whatever it takes to wake us up!

    If a Master is anything then he/she has to be absolute inner freedom, doesn’t he/she? Why restrict them to our petty standards of so-called ‘identity’?

    Might be hard to accept, but they’re not ‘just like us’ , simply because they’ve REAL-ised the truth, we (or should I say I) haven’t, they are FREE (of fear, fear of death, for example, because they’ve REAL-ised death is an illusion – so I’m told) we’re (or rather I’m) not.

    No need to worship one, of course, but

  59. Satya Deva says:

    Anthony thompson // Nov 3, 2009 at 11:42 pm

    Buy… do not quote larry bong. What is your own personal experience with the matter?
    because this is what i have been speaking about.

    What’s the problem with quoting that point, Anthony?

    It’s simply taking on board what BOTH Masters have actually described, that’s all.

    Of course, neither you (I presume) nor I has personal experience of such profound upheaval, but so what?

    Are we supposed to just ignore such teachings simply because we’re not at that point yet?

    Thing is, trotting out a list of ‘goodies’ can give a sort of somewhat shallow impression. As if it’s all just “such a ‘breeze’, man”…

    I was trying to bring in another aspect of it all.

    Btw, I take exception to your flippant little play with the guy’s name. Not impressed by that, Mr Professor, not at all.
    Is it tough for the old ‘professorial ego’ to come across a western Master, perhaps?!
    Maybe you’re beyond that though, hope so anyway.

  60. Anand says:

    Meera insults Kranti as a new sannaysin. I feel Kranti as a’new sannyasin’ has added more wisdom to this forum, then Meera ever did. Meera actually shows
    that Jayesh and boys have a point in sending old sannyasins into the woodworks. And Meera following your logic, you can’t teach me anything either, since you only arrived in 1981. Stupid logic.
    Enlightenment was the big carrot Osho gave us in Pune 1 and maybe the term
    ‘Awakening’ would fit our situations better, we just need to wake up from deep
    slumber.

  61. prem bubbie says:

    To me it’s obvious, osho twisted facts and contradicted himself simply for us to find out the “truth” or the “facts” ourselves. I don’t understand why so many people have a tough time seeing that. Yet, over and over again people get stuck on Osho’s latest opinion on a subject and make it gospel. If a person decides to actually live life with sincerity and honesty, and with one’s eyes open you’ll discover things, amazing things at that. When i mean sincerity and honesty, I mean with one’s self. We lie and deceive ourselves so much, that includes being in denial. Seems we can’t accept the “negative” side of one’s self -the “mistakes” that we make.. We think life should always be positive and to deny the negative. There are many ways to channel negativity. My ranch days allowed me to do just that, and when I did a brand new world was discovered. As for his other controversial and alleged things that he did, and also keeping things hidden is because most people would not or could not understand. Look, people still can’t get over the fact he drove Rolls Royces.

  62. Kranti says:

    Joining late..so many posts

    his caught my attention straighaway

    ” So you develop a deficiency for the lack of deficiency?

    …see the catch?

    I did.. And from that point i made good progress in reversing that ‘ trip’ … Will share more

  63. meera says:

    Anand

    you are faaaaaaaaaast asleep

    I don´t think
    you will ever get up from your grave…

    OSHO has not reached you in your slumber

  64. shantam prem says:

    Just an hour ago, one of the Indian sannyasin living in Switzerland has phoned me. As he reads sannyasnews thouroughly and shares his insights and points.
    He told me that in the latest issue of German Osho Times, Garimo has written a big piece about the present day resort and the esoterica behind the swiming pool etc.

    And Meera…this is for you.

    As a reader, he feels repulsed by your aggresive tone.
    Somehow i feel the same as if you are not communicating with the fellow seekers but with your husband!
    Please convey my regards to him, if you have one.

  65. garimo says:

    >>Garimo has written a big piece about the present day resort and the >>esoterica behind the swiming pool etc.

    But Shantam Prem! what’s the gossip about the pool?!
    A box of rocks has more esoterica than Meera… But a pool?
    Please tell us/me more!

    -g

  66. Kranti says:

    Good and thoughtful posts from everyone.. Let me also share my understanding.. Oflate I have been listening to lot ofinspite of how much I love him.. teachers to understand what this awakening is.. I didn’t want to rely on Osho’s words alone.. The more we listen the more understanding happens that everyone is talking about the same process in different ways.. That kind of understanding helps..Then we can again stick to Osho alone..

    The following is my understanding from the efforts I took of late …

    The Key understanding seems to be ‘ Everything happens in Awareness ‘ Including the search for awakening..

    That is the difficulty.. So the effort to search for awakening is doomed to fail from the word go as that also happens inside the Awakening which is already the case..

    So essentially the search is for something which is already the case.. every thought , every emotion and every experience happens in awareness.. Not only that, the most stunning thing is there is an awakening / true nature at the end of every thought , Every emotion and every experience.. What we typically attribute as Fulfillment ( as a RESULT of our effort ) is already sitting there to find us all the time….

    The Awareness which identifies with the mental process and derives an identity as Kranti or Anthony or Anand for convenience gets caught up in its own effort and awakening is nothing but a reversal of that process..There is NO ONE sitting there trying to become enlightened or Awakened

    It is just a process .. Initially Identification and then Dis-Identification ..

    We can roll on the floor , weep and cry..if that is what happening then That’s what happens
    If realization happens and one becomes a Master , then That’s what happens
    Someone tries hard and dies without realizing.. That’s what happens
    Someone keeps searching , keeps searching.. then That’s what happens
    Rajneesh happens
    Osho happens
    Anthony happens
    Anthony not taking sannyas happens
    Kranti happens
    Sannyasnews happens
    Dog happens
    Tree happens
    Anger happens
    Meera happens
    Shantam happens
    If Shantam becomes a great ZEN master then That’s what happens
    If later Rajneesh becomes a disciple of Shantam or Anthony then That’s what happens

    So the individual sitting there trying to achieve anything including awakening is just part of the identification / dis-identification happens..

  67. Kranti says:

    Small correction .. words got jumbled up at the beginning of the post…

    ” Oflate I have been listening to lot of other teachers apart from Osho to understand what this awakening is.. “

  68. shantam prem says:

    Garîmo,
    Your name sake has written a piece.
    Sometime, it is a question of perspective. Half glass full, half glass empty.

    http://www.oshotimes.de/seiten_php/feature.php

    Below is a google translation.

    Feature for the thematic focus of the Month
    The art of loving changes

    From 1974, grew up in Pune, at a commune Osho, from which emerged the present-day Osho International Meditation Resort, meeting place and sanctuary for thousands of spiritual seekers from almost every country on earth.
    In the spring of this year and met Vira Garimo to an interview in this beautiful campus, located in the green residential area in Koregaon Park. Garimo is for 35 years with Osho, and has worked many years in the Osho Multiversity. Now, she co-coordinates the multimedia department. She tells us about news and changes at the resort.

    Like people today find their way to Osho and his place here in India?
    I think there is no difference from before. It may still be that they have a book to read Osho, which makes them curious, or they come on the recommendation of someone who was here before. New is the world of the Internet. It’s really great to receive emails from people who surf the net and came across on Youtube video clips with Osho osho.com or the website, where among other things, Osho meditations are shown and explained. In fact, we get e-mails that read something like this: “Dear Osho. Thank you for this meditation. It works fantastic. I have already tried once to meditate, but I could never concentrate long enough … This technique works well for me and I’ll go with it … “This phenomenon explains why Osho was just born in our time. Through the new media can be achieved in principle, every person around the globe easily and directly. But overall, people are coming now, the same as before. Unlike, of course, that each younger generation once again has a unique way of expressing himself. As Center Director, we are very aware of what it is for a change in art of loving, that is: How do we make the meditation resort and everything that Osho is, is really? Of course, in the language of today! Finally, our language is changing so constantly, and we want to reach everyone. Just Osho believes it so whatever: He adapts his language is always in that generation that sits in each case before him.

    Critics say that in the Meditation Resort, it was very “wellnessmäßig become”, whether because the mood was not very superficially, if you spend a few days relaxing by the pool lay meditating next to cappuccino sipping a bit and then goes back departs? How do you see? There are now no longer about the burning, perhaps even painful longing for inner change?
    Well, you know, I’m really a very long time here. If you think that some people reinspazieren here to consume a bit of meditation, then I can guarantee you that it was always like that. At least since I’ve cruisings. When I came here the first time, it was much easier in some way than today. Back then you could still walk in here without any restrictions. At that time we did not need an AIDS test and do not wear white or red robe, as it has Osho set for today. At the very beginning, there was not even an admission fee to Osho made it clear to us that people who want to meditate, but should pay the same as for everything else in their lives. And that this is a place here must finance itself and should not have to rely on a few benevolent donations.
    Is it really so easy today to meet all the requirements imposed? I think not. And I also think nothing of saying that one must suffer until right before herfindet. No, the way to here need not be rocky. But I’m hundred percent sure that anyone who has started to look at itself, it not only easy! The fact is: In the same moment when you look inside, you’ll have to take your conditioning under the microscope. Then you discover you’ve tried with what defenses you, make yourself comfortable in this life. Little by little, then get your fixed beliefs shaken. No matter how easy or difficult it may be today, for a walk through the door to look inside the lines need to be correct. And so it has always been. At the wellness and recreation thought I would say that Osho has been announced in the United States a place that can make people on the way to light a kind of meditation holiday.
    At that time, also fell for the first time the word “resort” and then we began to have it, build it. Immediately after his return to Pune, he comes back to this project (see for example The Hidden Splendor, # 21). And a year before Osho left his body, he has led a lot of special things, wearing the robes of the day at the resort, for example, or the nightly meetings of the White Robe Brotherhood. There is a very funny video with Ananda, as it then appeared on the list before us.
    The list came from Osho, which stood on it, everything he intend and what we should do next. The list begins with the construction of a olympiagroßen pools! The video is so funny because we kept all sides with laughter, as that idea sounded so absolutely amazing – really, we could not imagine that. But in fact, are all targets of the next steps of Osho, who told us exactly what, how and why things should happen. And we went and go for it. Until today.

    Osho has also personally drafted a list, with the advancements of this place required by him after leaving his body. And this list is still the basis for everything that happens here, and his people work it off, point by point … but at some point one will have reached the end of the list. What happens then?
    I quote Osho’s words: “I will be contemporary in 200 years – I will be timely in 200 years.” He also says: “Do not think that, when you have heard my words, they’ve really heard.” I think But, more important than the work out there is to take care of their own transformation. Again and again jump into this pool of consciousness and to make our meditation to the highest priority. Only then, and I’m sure we will have the necessary intelligence to continue this wonderful legacy of Osho. And this is so alive and always works again so new that we previously might have not even scratched the surface. Really, if you look into how and what he has said and done, you can always and everywhere recognize Osho’s vision.

    But as for the practical things will eventually all be constructed and implemented. What next?
    Come back in ten years and watch it out! I can imagine that we will never come to an end. But I can always see only the next step, and who can plan the next twenty? But every change or not: Basically, I do not feel any difference from before. The shape has changed, but the process that Osho set in motion is the same.

    How does your program of Osho Multiversity the constantly changing needs of visitors. Decide ye for certain trends in the therapy or relaxation techniques? And as is compatible with all the new Osho’s work?

    Osho has some nice guidelines on this issue. The most important thing is that all offers should be linked with his meditations. He also says that we should provide everything that people ask, so they have nowhere else to go in order to satisfy their needs. The slogan reads: “Built the new methods, because with them come the new people. And do not evaluate the methods! ” Completely irrelevant is any work that serves the deconditioning – that the cleanup of societal imprints – such as breathing and body work, addressing the issues about family problems and of course, increasingly the Osho meditative therapies that work directly with our energies.
    What do we have an eye is that Osho is not abused. This means that no one copied his words or work and daruntersetzt his own name. This is called copyright. The other issue revolves around the trademark of his meditations. As people go forth and say, “Well, the Dynamic Meditation is great, but this man is now dead for twenty years and I think we should do in the third phase, something different, after all that jumping is no longer modern. How about here with a round of Pilates? “Believe me: There are people who do such a thing. Osho says: “Take my meditation is not easy on the shoulder. If you can not make it, as it is, then you seek out a different technique. Who wants to change something in it that set his own name underneath. ”
    I heard a story about a woman who was here at the resort, as they had received payment from her boss a relaxing holiday. When someone asked her: “And, do you like Osho?”, The woman had replied in astonishment: “Osho? Who’s that? “What do you think? Do you feel that Osho himself appears more and more into the background?
    I think Osho is infinitely more than we can imagine. He speaks so beautifully about how he started all alone and then more and more people came. At some point he says: “I release myself to my people.” And “It will spread through all your ideas out.” The word “Osho” stands not only for him as a person but also for its methodology and a certain lifestyle . And yet for much more. So if someone is sitting by the pool and the word “Osho” so do not yet know, he may go to some evening meditation, where it meets the person who started it all here. If he goes to the bookstore, he sees the author, who wrote all those wonderful lyrics. Thus comes about by itself to connect. And we let people find their own path. I think this is the smartest form. It’s just like with you in Cologne. Someone goes into the restaurant Osho’s Place and will drink a cup of coffee, and he gets it. When he is curious and asks what’s happening behind the door that leads to the UTA Institute, you just say: “Come, I’ll show you.”
    And so can begin a journey. That is freedom. Then it may happen that someone goes out in the middle of a meditation, to smoke a cigarette. And we then have the task to go and say, “Hey, it does not mean” Therefore we also give the “Welcome Morning” is a wonderfully detailed introduction, including the meditation. This small program along with tour of the Meditation Resort will be held separately for those who come here for the first time. So we bring our energy, but always look with great respect for those on their way.
    Just last week I read a Hindi translation, in which someone asks Osho on Enlightenment. In this context, he speaks about the respect that he brings to every man who sets out on the road. This is the highest value that we want to maintain. And the same goes for the tourists, here times two weeks of “just want to” relax by the pool.
    http://www.osho.com

  69. Kranti says:

    The Google translation is not that great.. is that article published in english version also .. is there a way to get for mal translation and create a new thread .. It will be terrific.. May be we should ask garimo herself..

  70. Kranti says:

    There is a high quality to the posts in this thread

    Seems like we have done so much arguing / debating as a chartic release in other threads, now awakening is happening in this thread..

  71. garimo says:

    >>Garîmo,
    >>Your name sake has written a piece.

    Shantam Prem, I was garimo 6-7 years before Arup had a name change.

  72. shantam prem says:

    Kranti,
    Try to ask Garimo herself.
    May be she has the mailing address in the form everybody in the resort has-
    garimo@osho.net

    It will be also interesting whether the main church, aknowledge the existance of sannyasnews.

  73. garimo says:

    I think her name change was Poona 2?
    Maybe we need a historian?

  74. shantam prem says:

    “If Shantam becomes a great ZEN master then That’s what happens
    If later Rajneesh becomes a disciple of Shantam or Anthony then That’s what happens….”

    One should clear the road before it leads to somewhere else.

    Osho has given enough gas to small town middle class people like me to be on the trail of this exotic product.

    Anthony may call it a carrot but i feel enchanted by His words, when Osho says something like, in eternity even the ants are on the way to enlighenment…..

    So.. Kranti

    Shantam is not impressed with the idea of Zen Master.

    Osho may have spoken in the last about Zen, does not mean it becomes the fashion trend of everybody.
    Classic is always in fashion.
    Simply to be an “Indian Master” will be fine with me.

    Rajneesh may become disciple of Anthony to learn how to sharpen the tricks of the trade with psyhcological vocaboulary.

    For shantam, this can be too complex a surgery.

  75. Kranti says:

    ” Maybe we need a historian? ‘

    You meant Anthony?

  76. Kranti says:

    “Shantam is not impressed with the idea of Zen Master.”

    Thats what happening now..

    ” Rajneesh may become disciple of Anthony to learn how to sharpen the tricks of the trade with psyhcological vocaboulary.”

    Nothing like this.. I will become enlightened on just seeing Rajneesh becoming a disciple of Anthony… What fun it will be..

  77. Kranti says:

    One more beautiful site on the subject..Very good writings are available.. Especially the ones on what is ‘ conciouness ? What happens when we fall asleep rather what falls asleep , subject , object etc..

    http://www.rupertspira.com/

  78. shantam prem says:

    Blue light against suicide on tracks- Last year in Japan killed nearly 2,000 people by throwing himself under a train.

    http://de.news.yahoo.com/1/20091104/twl-blaues-licht-gegen-selbstmord-auf-ba-1be00ca.html

    After reading this news,i was wondering what happened to the great Zen Masters of Japan. Have they disappered from the earth and why or they look quite nice when Osho hangs his coat over them.

    2000 people in a country commit suicide just through the train method….
    I really wonder, how many Oshos still exist in that country to show them the carots of enlightenment to avoid the desperation.

  79. Kranti says:

    ” After reading this news,i was wondering what happened to the great Zen Masters of Japan”

    Think Osho somewhere referred to japan losing that spiritual maturity..he said they are more hypocritic now..

  80. Kranti says:

    I mailed garimo at that address.. But not sure whether an English translation is available..

  81. Anand says:

    Amrito was Devaraj, Arup became Garimo, Vivek became Nirvano, Chetna became Shunyo. Anando refused Osho’s suggestion of the name Aurobindo and stayed Anando. This was all done at the time when India’s authorities were harassing incoming sannyasins at the borders. As far as I remember that was during the time, when Osho stayed in Bombay in 1986 after his arrest in Greece and after the world tour.

  82. Kranti says:

    So those name changes were done for obivious reasons? Nothing to do with sannyas..

  83. Satya Deva says:

    Having viewed a few short Osho Rajneesh videos this morning, I can say, without the slightest hesitation or doubt, that this character is definitely NOT the ‘real deal’, no way!

    Just transparent imitation and a load of psychic mumbo-jumbo…

    On a sex and power trip, I expect…

    His nasty little note to Anthony T and remarks re the Prof.’s partner (just came across that today) rather strong pointers, I’d say…

    Still, I guess there are enough idiots around who’ll be taken in by this ‘plastic fake’…

    Some on here, of course…(No names mentioned, Meera)….

  84. Anthony thompson says:

    Regarding rajneesh
    When I was on Pune there were a huge quantity of crazy people. Actually, I never saw so many in a social environment that was not a psychiatric institution.

    My guess is that Indian psychotics were much less aggressive and violent than western ones. Therefore, they were tolerated.

    The reason was that largely they remained untreated so they were not altered by anti-psychotic pharmaceutical products.

    I remember many mad people when osho was around. I remember rajneesh walking slowly, a guy who used to do kundalini the whole day outside buddha hall; a guy who used to walk blindfolded around the ashram… and knock his head off a couple of times against trees. I remember “the animal lover” who had looong conversations with the swan,; the laughter swami that in his delirium was laughing all the time; many who came to the welcome center saying they were enlightened now and wanted to lead white robe or sit in Osho s chair.etc. I do not think any of them had pharmaceutical treatment.

    Madness is part of the Indian culture. Specially religious psychosis, and it has been accepted for milenia. They have had their place is society. If in the west a person enters a town saying he is god, he will be send to the psychiatric hospital. If that happens in India, he may even earn a living and following.

    On the other side, western psychotics have had to face a strong social discrimination and endure a lot of drugs. This turns them more violent and resentful. Therefore, they tended to be expelled from the ashram more often.

    Rajneesh was expelled in 1990 probably because he did not only walked slowly, but his megalomaniac tendencies begun to manifest and wanted some appraisal from the establishment. The Indian sannyasins who managed those things, I think Neelam,Vedant and Manu sent Rajneesh back to the streets.

  85. Anand says:

    The name changes had to do with the Indian Government, which did not wanted sannyasins entering the country and had found out the names of the closest disciples of Osho, Trying to catch them when entering India. That was after the ranch time, when Osho was very unpopular in India. Even ordinary sannyasins were grilled and harassed at border entry points and Indian embassies.
    Then at the beginning of 1987 when Osho was back in Pune after a short stunt
    in Bombay, the Pune authorities still hassled the ashram.

  86. Kranti says:

    ” If that happens in India, he may even earn a living and following.”

    On the dot.

  87. Kranti says:

    Talking about name change Anand..heard that Osho wanted to remain nameless before he left the body and people had tough time convincing him to have a name atleast for publishing purposes..that is some adamancy i will say..

  88. Anand says:

    I am against the banning specially for political reasons. It creates a lot of bitter people out there and adds to the division among Osho sannyasins.
    Rajneesh as I remember was harmless and just one of the many exotic characters inside the ashram compound.

  89. Anand says:

    Osho dropped all names, which for us created a dilemma: how to address him?
    You can find those on some of the discourses of that time with the questions of Maneesha: beloved master, beloved maitreya, beloved buddha etc. It was specially hard for the publishers of Osho books.

  90. Kranti says:

    I remember reading an article about Osho in an Indian magazine ( Name of the magazine is ‘ Life Positive ‘ if i remember right ) with a title ‘ Roller coaster ride to enlightenment ‘ ..

    He did have a Roller coaster ride …

  91. Kranti says:

    The title was not very meaningful though as it suggests he had a ride before enlightenment …

  92. oshobob says:

    I find floating the idea that those name changes for the well known sannyasins to be due to trying to circumvent the Indian Consulate workers in the Pune 2 era to be a highly and very dubious explanation at best.

    I mean, first, they (Devaraj, Vivek, Arup, Chetna…) were probably all in India anyway, with Osho in Bombay or Pune. Second, consulate workers that have a list of people they want to strain out and deny access to are not that stupid. This is their job — they do it every day, years on end. They are professionals. They have photos, aliases, fingerprints, DNA samples maybe, etc….in the US they now embed your Social Security # in the magnetic stripe of the US Passport. And these are just the techniques that are made available to the general public. The Governments have other ways too, of quick identification, not so well known to Mr.Joe Blow or Miss Maureen Johnson.

    If a person’s legal name for example is Christine Wolfe, and she has been known by her sannyas name of Vivek, by changing it to “Nirvano”, do you think the immigration officials charged to ferret out that person would be hoodwinked by some junior high school tactic like changing her sannyas name, when her passport reads “Christine Wolfe”, and these people are on an Interpol list of “Be on the lookout for…”? Even if they haven’t committed any crime.

    Come on boyz, get real. Anando didn’t change her name, Devageet didn’t change his, Maneesha didn’t change hers, and they seemed to exist in India in the Pune 2 era just fine, at least in regards to getting through Indian Visa procedures.

    There are most likely other reasons, not known to the general sannyasin people, for the name changes. Osho probably knows — no doubt about that.

  93. Kranti says:

    Yes..Oshobob..It is not that easy..Agree.

  94. oshobob says:

    For Shantam…

    Osho rarely talked about any Japanese Zen masters — 19 out of 20 of them where Chinese, mostly from the Tang and Song Dynasties (roughly 500-1200 CE). Zen did not enter into Japan until about 1300, and started to decline rapidly in the 1800′s. The main ones he ever mentioned were Dogen, Ikkyu, and Hakuin, and Bankei — and of course all the haiku poets, though many of these guys were not actually connected to any formal Zen tradition as such.

    The only reason most people think of Zen as Japanese is that the translations of the major books were done in the 20th century from Japanese sources, with Western Judaeo/Christian funding for the projects — actually the original purpose was to demean Buddhism in general for the Western readership, as a way to trash the Eastern cultures and their indigenous religions. Osho has talked on this subject — in fact, he was one of the first to do so.

  95. Anthony thompson says:

    Oshobob. a Clarification. The people close to Osho did not only change their sannyas names but their legal names as well. Maneesha herself tolf me this. Her name Juliet Formann was changed to Juliette James. When I inquired she told me the whole story. that is why George Meredith changed to John Andrews. The level of harassment was very big. In the early 87-88 days they were many times traveling abroad for different reasons.
    I know you like conspiracy theories Oshobob… but this story i can give it to you certified.

  96. oshobob says:

    Well, Anthony, you’re a bit naive here…
    Anthony,

    Certified story? From the mouth of an Osho sannyasin? That’s a laugh….

    Example:
    If Doc Amrito’s real original name was George Meredith (doubtful, in my opinion…there was a British socialist/progressive writer in the 19th century by the same name, you can search engine him — the “doc” probably just pinched it for fun) — when you legally change your name, you have to do it through legal certified channels, i.e. the government agencies that handle those things in your native country — that would be England in the doc’s case, from his own account of his citizenship. Or maybe he had a dual citizenship in India. Same thing. Those government agencies that certify legal name changes are also the government agencies that handle immigration matters, visas, consulates, etc. — or at least very directly connected to them. I think you can see the problem here quite easily.

    The file on the doc at all the consulates (if in fact they were trying to filter him out) would read something like this:

    George Meredith (b. 1942)
    male
    caucasian

    aliases:
    John Andrews (legal name change, England, 1987)
    Swami Devaraj (“sannyasin” name given by Indian guru Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh)
    Swami Amrito (“sannyasin” name change give by above named guru Rajneesh)
    other names possible

    MO: new age spiritual cult member based in Poona, India, pawns himself off as a certified physician from London St. Thomas, but may actually be just a horse vet from Wales; fancies himself as a sort of modern day Doctor Zhivago, critic, social progressive, ladies man, etc. Smokes, drinks, lies consistently.

    Be on the alert for this man. He is considered to be somewhat of a suave desperado, flim-flam man.

  97. meera says:

    Satya Deva
    your comment about Rajneesh shows
    something about you :

    ´On a sex and power trip, I expect…´

    shows.. that you are jealous.. and sexually repressed…

    next comment of you :

    ´ Still, I guess there are enough idiots around who’ll be taken in by this ‘plastic fake’…´

    shows
    that you are
    not human
    but a

    fake

    made of plastic

    a toy boy so to say…..

  98. Shanti says:

    meerita. . you are just so, so hurt, so damaged, that poison is just coming out of you
    Who did this to you?

  99. frank says:

    oshobob,
    changing your name by “deed poll” in the uk (still)costs 15gb pounds.
    all you need is to fill in a form from a solicitor.
    the doc and those guys(all british) easily did this and went back to india and avoided detectionat the airport in late eighties.
    then later,baksheesh,i would say.
    indian policing in those days was not miami vice or james bond,or whatever.

    about the changed sannyas names.i dont know.

    india and visas.
    hohoho.
    bribery,corruption and matrimony.
    and the old commonwealth member passports up till 1984,used to be allowed unlimited stay in india.
    altho`.i always heard that officially,it was for 49 years,then you had to go out of india for a week,then you could get another 49 years.

    bob you are assuming that india was(is?) some kind of place running on logic or something.
    some of us hippies never even had a passport at all.
    “shiva is my passport”
    hahahaha

    them was the days…..

  100. Anthony thompson says:

    Oshobob. Frank is right… you have been watching way too many James Bond movies. Back then the system was not even computerized in India. It was hand made.
    Once you crossed bombay´s airport the official tiered down a piece of paper where he wrote a number you gave to a guard standing outside. that was the security system

    Those guys could have easily avoid detection bay changing names. The sannyas name change was the same thing, but this time it was osho who gave it to them.

  101. oshobob says:

    well, ok, frank and anthony, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, you were there, i wasn’t, you have the personal experience…

    but your points are actually what gets me to wondering — if everything was so lackadaisical, banana-republic efficiency, primitive, and bribe-laden….then why the big fuss and to-do about the great danger of allowing Osho sannyasins to enter India…just give the poor border guard a handful of rupees, and go on through.

    Sometimes I think the sannyasin group actually enjoyed changing their identities, maybe multiple times…what else was the whole new sannyas name thing in the first place for….?

    A little ‘let’s outwit the officials’, role playing, the adrenaline rush of getting through that “green door…” I wonder what Pari’s take on this would be…?

  102. Anthony thompson says:

    I´ll tell you how it worked. the ambassy had the legal name of the person in case they came to ask for a visa. And the airports had a listing of those legal names in case they showed up over there.

  103. Anand says:

    This for our beloved Meera, karmatically locked up in Germany. One question:
    do you think, that if you shout loud enough no one will notice you have nothing to say?

  104. Anand says:

    About the visas etc. True there were no computers at that time, but you needed to get your visa for India outside of India to be able to enter.
    At the border at Bombay airport you could not just show up rupee notes and get in. But once in India you could pay for extensions. Remember Moses in Pune 1?

  105. Satya Deva says:

    Meera, hopefully one day you’ll open your eyes and see clearly.

    I’m absolutely nobody special, but I’d stake my life that Rajneesh is a self-deluded fake and that those who believe otherwise are likewise deluded.

    And by the way, it really doesn’t matter to me what silly names you call me.

    Read Shanti’s compassionate post again and reflect on that would be my only further comment.

  106. garimo says:

    I had always the impression the name changes had something to do with forgiveness and a fresh start of breaking from the past history of Rajneeshpuram.

  107. oshobob says:

    just to let you guys know, that i’m not getting my views out of some James Bond movie — you know the last one i saw was with Sean Connery, the original series, Goldfinger, Dr. No, From Russia With Love, …..a long time ago…

    but, in the States, after 9/11, the airport and immigration entry and exit security is massive, and very high-tech. To say nothing of the interconnected databases of the government agencies at all levels, in conjuction with the corresponding agencies of other countries. Along with the normal metal detectors, pat searches, etc. , I have gone through chemical “puff booths” — like a telephone booth, that blasts a certain air gust all over you and then instantly detects anything out of the ordinary, like drugs, or explosive material. That’s in addition to all the Homeland Security armed guards, undercover police, overt and covert security cameras, etc. It ain’t like the early 80′s anymore, when some of you were flying in and out of the Ranch.

    If you tell airport customs that “Shiva is my passport” you will end up in some lock-up room with a trained interrogator with a distinctly negative attitude exuding from his very being….you will be thinking “Ah, the Ranch….them were the days, those golden sweet days with Sheela and the Gang….!”

  108. meera says:

    `meerita. . you are just so, so hurt, so damaged, that poison is just coming out of you
    Who did this to you?´

    shanti
    the poison is in YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    thats why you are blind dump and deaf………….

    otherwise you would recognise that I´m not hurting anything or anybody..

    THATS ALL YOUR PROJECTION

    FROM YOUR
    UNCONSCIOUS MIND

    get rid of your accumulated poison
    and change it into honey , honey

    you need a deep katharsis..
    a cleaning of all this hate and bitching…
    otherwise you will never be able to become a
    MEDITATOR

    Psychopharmaca won´t help to get into a relaxed state
    also ALCOHOL makes your state of mind WORSE

    you will only drown more into
    unconsciousness
    avoiding reality…
    insisting that you have any clarity whatsoever…

    NO -MIND IS A STATE OF BEING

    not a philosophy

    freaking out in Barcelona slowly slowly ?

    what your you doing there?

    (except bozzing and party? giggle)

  109. meera says:

    the same is true
    for
    Satya Deva
    and Anand

  110. meera says:

    ………..western AlcoholiX……….

    no further comment

    enough for today……………….

  111. Kranti says:

    ‘ “Shiva is my passport ”

    This is really goo thought.. You guys know better about all this passport stuff

    But i can assure you as an Indian , everything is possible here . It is not actually James Bond Movie.. you guys got the movie wrong.. It is clint Eastwood style ” for few rupees more ”

    So much so , People who go to hospital ( mainly government ) for emergency medical attention also need to pay before getting medical attention..Otherwise there is no chance of survival

    Now things are changing becasue of media attention..

    Oshobob you said ‘ just give the poor border guard a handful of rupees, and go on through. ”

    Not only border guard , anywhere in India for any formality to be gone through BIG Fuss is made only with the intention of getting few rupees more..

  112. Kranti says:

    Oshobob.. one question

    You said ‘ Zen did not enter into Japan until about 1300, and started to decline rapidly in the 1800’s ”

    Osho always talks about this ZEN flowering in Japan.. Is that really the case ?.. Seed shown in India , Tree grew in China and Flowers bloomed in Japan kind of thing..Or it is another one of His poetic twists ?

  113. Kranti says:

    ” Seed shown in India ”

    Typed ‘shown’ instead of ‘ sown ‘ by mistake..Buddha did more than just showing…

  114. Satya Deva says:

    meera // Nov 5, 2009 at 7:35 am

    the same is true
    for
    Satya Deva
    and Anand

    meera // Nov 5, 2009 at 7:36 am

    ………..western AlcoholiX……….

    Ever tried AA, Meera?!!

  115. frank says:

    oshobob,
    well,you gotta hand it to the ol` doc,
    doc holiday,burgess meredith,amrito,eamonn andrews,general gordon,general dyer,johnny walker…whatever….
    he`s been around,seen a bit….
    he`s survived sheela and a poison dart up his arse,being busted by the paranoid pistol packing feds,got more passports than james bond,gone thru the green channel etc
    and at his stage of his life,he`s still got the fight left in him to wave his empty gin bottles at the hard-core hindu sannyasins,
    like a muslim dropping his pants at the kumbha mela…
    wicked…
    and he `s managed to wind up plenty of past-their-sell-by-date “old”sannyasins something chronic.

    respect where respect is due…..

    he could just have been a quiet suburban MD in some leafy suburb battling for control of the local church hall…

    instead he`s issuing banning orders like confetti.
    which are fast becoming the highest possible accolade in the sannyas world.
    being banned is an absolute must-have on the cv of any serious contender for an enlightened follower of a rebel master….

    it`s a generous gesture,when you think about it.

  116. Kranti says:

    Good post Frank..

  117. Kranti says:

    ” it`s a generous gesture,when you think about it ”

    Rajneesh will vouche for it ..

  118. Anthony thompson says:

    I am absolutely stunned by the persistence of this Woman called Meera. It reminds me of patients in Psychiatric hospitals screaming to the nurses ” You are all crazy… crazy, crazy!!! Can you see?!!! I am the only one sane here!!!?”

    I quote the saying at the top of this page ” I will be known by my disciples” I think this refers to Sw. Rajneesh disciples too. If the man is seriously psychotic what do we expect from his followers.

    According to the little information I have got from my research She is 52 years old and lives in a town near cologne.She was in Pune one where she got gonorrhea and did not like the rules of the ashram , so she preferred to hang out with the local population.
    Now she thinks herself a master… but has the problem that not many people are buying into that… therefore she poures her anger resentment towards alcohol-meat eater sannyasins whom, she thinks, will doom the world.
    Therefore she is in an internet battle to bring back the right sannyas faith.

    As the old Doc would say: cheers!

  119. Kranti says:

    This is for you Anthony.. Not sure whether you had read this before

    http://oshana.org/articles/failure_western_enlightenment_teachers.html

  120. Kranti says:

    This is also interesting with even a small reference to Osho also..

    http://oshana.org/articles/truth_no_concepts.html

  121. garimo says:

    kranti,
    after reading that last posted link…
    I thought to myself “I’m glad I’m not on this guys mailing list”.

  122. oshobob says:

    frank,

    you’re right there, Doc Amrito deserves respect.

    most of us who punch him up a bit at jackassnews are probably just jealous of him.
    he got his foot in the door in the early days, got the old man’s attention, did what he had to do to rise in the system, and has hung tough through thick and thin.

    respect given.

    the only thing i really don’t like about him is that he is so obedient. whatever Osho tells him to do, he does.
    Devoted to the cause. Not really the rebel quality at all, more of a career military man mentality. but he seems to be intelligent and a good-hearted man.

    but then again, osho needed these types, and in a big way.

    respect to the Doc.

    Bravo Osho.

  123. frank says:

    garimo.
    i notice that he is wearing a whitecoat…
    the lunatics are taking over the asylum.
    quick,call anthony…..

  124. frank says:

    oshobob,
    oh yeah,
    he`s what the british call a “good egg”
    “a thoroughly decent sort”
    the sort of chap you could rely on to score the winning try in a jolly good game of rugger,what ho!

    on the other hand,that new friend of kranti`s with the white coat on is ,in his native london(rhyming slang),known by many as a “merchant banker”

  125. frank says:

    not to be confused with ramesh,the “enlightened banker” of mumbai..he is a real banker.

  126. oshobob says:

    “enlightened banker” ?

    never heard of the species.

    more probably a ravi shankar, or a sri lankar at best…

  127. Kranti says:

    Frank.. He is not a new friend of mine..Just came across that stuff and posted because there was some discussion on enlightenment..

    Anyway it is interesting to see he is known as merchant banker..because thats close to my career .. I hold a qualification in that line..

  128. Kranti says:

    Yes Ramesh Balsekar was President of Bank Of India and I tink adter retirement he met Nisardata and became enlightened..

    You guys would have known that He left the body last month

  129. Kranti says:

    Thanks for the posts on Amrito..Thats what i also feel..Do you guys hold Jayesh also in the same league? more or less.. He had a role to play and i think he stuck to it nicely.

  130. oshobob says:

    right, Kranti, the Mick is in the same league. little different MO though — hides in the shadows, never seen, business cover, drinks whiskey, Johnnie Walker Black Label most probably, does his job well, — at the end of the day, Osho says, “Good boy, Jayesh.”

    The Doc drinks gin, Bombay Gin most probably,…puts on a good public face, well spoken, witty, professional veneer, able to give a good bald-faced whopper of a lie when he has to, and at the end of the day Osho says, “Good boy, Amrito.”

    give them both respect. i could never do it….

    and that ramesh guy, “Balkasar” is it… ? is that the same guy who used to post here, Amrit Balskasar — the Cuckoo…? ABC we used to call him…most probably just an oil tanker….

  131. oshobob says:

    or are you guys talking about the guy who calls himself “Oshana”? That really ticks me off when people use Osho’s name as part of theirs, like hey, can’t they make it on their own? That guy’s a right oil tanker.

    Cheers
    oshobob

  132. meera says:

    Satya Deva

    I don´t drink alcohol

    alcohol is a dangerous drug

    and just going to AA dosen´t help very much

    one has to understand the rootcause

    OSHO has a simple formula :

    create communes
    where therapy happens natural

    a COMMUNE OF THE MASTER

    is a SANGHA

    a gathering
    where people support each other
    where space
    is created
    which
    helps
    your
    growth

    living in this society
    is often so troubelsome
    alone you is helpless
    so you might take to alcohol
    which disturbs your growth
    you remain
    unconscious

  133. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    Ma Meera you need a good **** maybe , l cant imagine, these guys are still tolerating you , HOLY ****

  134. oshobob says:

    meera, you have got to lighten up a bit on the alcohol agenda…

    it seems that it is always hard core religious fanatics that take up this cause.

    in America in the early 20th century we had the Women’s Temperance Society, an anti-alkie bunch of tight-assed lunatics that went around handing out brochures and picketing the taverns and liquor stores. Led to immoral behavior and other social evils, they said.

    Then there are the hard-core Muslims who, following the religious precept against alcohol, will not even eat any food that has vinegar in it, or soy sauce, as they both contain a minute amout of the dreaded substance.

    And these are the people that seem to be against music and dancing too. From my own experience, I have never in my life met a musician that did not use some kind of drug or alcohol in their lives. Not one. And oddly enough, it seems to be that the best musicians are the ones that use and abuse these substances the most. Strange, isn’t it…. Even the wild dancing and bhajans of the Punjab and Sikh culture may have more than an indirect connection with the opium fields of the area….maybe even the legendary Meera of Rajasthan took a toke or two…

  135. garimo says:

    OshoBob,

    I’m sure that’s all just your projection.

    “FROM YOUR
    UNCONSCIOUS MIND”

    or something like that…

    -g

  136. frank says:

    a toke or two?
    i`ll wager that she`s smoked more chillums than you`ve had hot dinners

    i always said that hippes who never stop smoking dope turn into psychological muslims eventually.

    strange but true.

  137. meera says:

    oshobob

    I´m not against alcohol during parties or on certain occasions

    but if alcohol becomes part of your daily life
    then it will ruin you

    and thats what is happening to many people
    esp in the west

    they drink regulary
    instead of
    meditiating

    it has become a lifestyle of fun n games

  138. oshobob says:

    you are right there meera,

    too much of anything can ruin you,

    eating a whole pot of sauerkraut at one sitting can produce some very negative effects.

    even Osho has said that too much addiction to meditation can be deleterious to your health.

    life is short, the options are huge, so take advantage of what’s out there, it’s a vast landscape….

  139. Satya Deva says:

    But, Meera, the joke is that you haven’t got the joke…

    Why should I ask you about/suggest AA , do you think, eh?!

    Don’t know? Let me help…

    It was a response, in your very own vein, to your haranguing me and others here about the evil of alcohol…

    Do you now get it?!

    No? Ok, here’s more help:

    You very much like to accuse others of ‘projecting’ their own issues on to you, when you’re being criticised, don’t you?

    Got it now, perhaps, yes?!

    Really rather funny…

    Not the original joke but your blindness to it!

    In the immortal words of ‘The Sun’s famous headline: “Gotcha!”

  140. Satya Deva says:

    PS:
    Anyway, I’m more or less teetotal and have been for many years!

    So swallow that, ok?!!

  141. Kranti says:

    “and that ramesh guy, “Balkasar” is it… ? ”

    No Oshobob.. Ramesh Basekar is much respect name on the Advaita circle.. Not that guy who used to post here.. He dies last month at the age of 92

    See his website..

    http://www.rameshbalsekar.com/

  142. Kranti says:

    ” From my own experience, I have never in my life met a musician that did not use some kind of drug or alcohol in their lives.”

    Osho always talks about this link between creativity and chaos.. He says chaos is pre condition for creativity.. So anyone creative must be very indisciplned or immoral ..something like that.. They can not have a controlled life and creative also..

  143. Kranti says:

    This alcohol topic is very interesting.. The purpose of alcohol is to realx you and if you are meditative enough you shouldnt be needing that..

    I am not able to understand why people who have got majorly into spirituality ( true spirituality I mean ) has any need for drink..

    In my own cas the more I am connected to my center and silent the less I need alcohol ..I never had regular habit anyway.. Infact alcohol has become a hindrance for me to be in touch with reality and I dont prefer that except for a occasional beer..

  144. Kranti says:

    One more thing the meditative / silent state sharpens our senses whereas alcohol dulls the same.. So obiviously both are not giving you the same experience..Diametrically opposite infact..

  145. garimo says:

    >>So anyone creative must be very indisciplned or immoral .>>.something like that.. They can not have a controlled life and >>creative also..

    So Kranti, Are you’re thinking a Zorba the Buddha is a impossibility?

  146. Kranti says:

    Garimo

    I was quoting Osho there.. That is more from the view point that creative people are chaotic in their life which makes them think and act in creative ways. Think and act out of the box..

    I think any creative person is Zorba the Buddha by that logic.. He has both sides..

    The Zorba the Buddha is more a term used for Seekers who can be chaotic and creative ..Is it not?

    Osho also said Buddha is the highest form of creativity..

  147. prem bubbie says:

    Regarding Meera—-Was it an alcohol meat eater sannyasin who gave her the clap while she was in Pune 1that caused her to turn into a basket case? Let’s pass the hat around and see if we can collect enough money to buy her some thorazine. Poor girl.

  148. prem bubbie says:

    The ranch had discos some with a pub and casino. Dance floor, pub, casino—what more can you ask , for a great time– oh yeah- getting laid!!!! Now meera, lighten up– go out, dance, drink, gamble and if you’re lucky you’ll get laid!!!! Call us after you’ve done those 4 meditations. But will we recognize the “new” Meera? Bon Voyage!!!!

  149. garimo says:

    When speaking about the idea of Zorba the Buddha, Osho also said
    “Buddha cannot laugh, cannot dance, cannot sing, cannot love. Now what kind of life will it be? Hollow!”

  150. garimo says:

    here’s a cut & paste Zorba the Buddha picture story:
    http://www.osho.com/Topics/TopicsEng/Zorba1.HTM

  151. meera says:

    Zorba was not an american alcoholaddict..

    if you wanna know who Zorba is .. go to Greece…

    Zorba is a DANCER

    he has nothing to do with AMERICANS or Spanish people
    sitting and boozing…

    if you never happen to go to Greece..
    get up from your sofa and and your comfortable
    lifesyles of steaks and whiskey

    and take a trip to Krete island…
    in the wild
    sitt at the ocean under a fullmoon
    and enjoy
    incredible nature all around…

  152. meera says:

    all these people here shouting in an angry tone
    are poisend by society..
    trained to hate others
    who are not like them..mediocre…

    and the ones who shout the most
    accusing others are those
    who regular drink alcohol
    wich gives them a
    SUPERIORITY-COMPLEX
    they are not anymore in their proper senses…

    Alcohol has taken over….
    and that is the case with all politicinas worldwide

    boozing has become their very lifestyle…

    it makes them cruel
    keeps them in ignorance..
    makes them greedy to the extent
    that they are willing to butcher other countries and deprive them from their homes…

    this world is a MADHOUSE

    if the women don´t get up
    from their centruries
    of living a
    SHADOWLIFE
    as carboncopies of men…
    the world will be doomed by stupid aggressive men…

  153. Kranti says:

    Garimo

    My understanding is , His whole approach is that of ‘ Going beyond’ . So to him unless you have seen through Zorbahood you can not be a Buddha..The experience of seeing through the metrial life culminates in Buddhahood as you just open the eyes and see Zorba for What he is..

    But he said lot of things in certain context and angles..

    For example he says a buddha is creative..he need not paint or laugh or dance..But his very existence is creative

    In another angle he says Buddha is trancendental..So he has to be beyond duality .. Thats what we understand enlightenment as ..

    But If a Buddha is beyond duality then where is the question of Buddha being lopsided ?

    All in ‘ His’ game

  154. meera says:

    HERE you seeeeeeeee

    ZORBA THE BUDDHA

    IN ACTION


    The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

  155. Kranti says:

    Anything said enters the realm of duality..

    Garimo… If you are interested read this article..

    http://www.kiloby.com/writings.php?offset=0&writingid=117

    I quote one relevant part from the full article on having a view .. This is an amazing insight as it indicates the view or one position or one angle of seeing creates a person which doesnt exist.. Once you become capable of not having a view you can not be a person..you can only be a awreness at any given point of time..

    ” Only awareness itself (actual awareness, not a description of it) can see itself in every view. A person can never do that, especially one clinging tightly to his or her dualistic idea of love or awareness or God or whatever. The “person” is a fictitious entity created through identification with a single point of view.’ _ Kiloby

  156. meera says:

    ZORBA THE BUDDHA II


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  157. meera says:

    ZORBA THE BUDDHA III


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  158. meera says:

    ZORBA THE BUDDHA IV


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  159. meera says:

    ZORBA THE BUDDHA V


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  160. meera says:

    OSHO MADNESS


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  161. garimo says:

    Kranti,
    Can a building transend or “go beyond” the foundation it is built on?

    Really it’s hard for me to discuss when a fragment from one concept is held up and I’m told “it mean this and this” and then it’s compared to another fragment from another time and then told “so this means that”…
    I can’t say that I’m sharing the understanding you seem to be having.

    I posted bits of Osho trying to explain *His* idea of Zorba the Buddha, which he spoke much about over many years. It seemed a important idea for Him.

  162. meera says:

    AH THIS !!!

    I call Zorba…


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  163. meera says:

    here you see a drunken sannyasins
    on alcohol
    in America


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    ps. Im not judging

    I´M JUST A WATCHER ON THE HILL

  164. garimo says:

    Kranti,
    I was reading Alan Watts eariler this evening. Something he said that stuck home with me was.
    “When you’ve gotten the message, hang up the phone.”

  165. Kranti says:

    Just one more thing before I start overdoing this stuff and attract Frank to come with a Zen stick

    When it is said ‘ a buddha is creative..he need not paint or laugh or dance..But his very existence is creative ” … It is s pointer.

    When it is said ‘ Buddha is trancendental..& beyond duality ..: It is a pointer

    So every view or saying , is a pointer to the whole..the pointers are always limited..

    Oops!!..

  166. Kranti says:

    ” “When you’ve gotten the message, hang up the phone.”

    Awesome Garimo..

    Think this is more like what i tried to say in my last post.. When you get the message then there is no point hanging on to the phone ( pointer )

  167. Kranti says:

    ” Really it’s hard for me to discuss when a fragment from one concept is held up and I’m told “it mean this and this” and then it’s compared to another fragment from another time and then told “so this means that”…

    I feel we both are on the same page.. I tried to say the same as ‘When you’ve gotten the message, hang up the phone “..All are poniters.. So you are right it is not possible to compare a fragment to another ..

  168. Kranti says:

    ” Can a building transend or “go beyond” the foundation it is built on ”

    Not sure what you mean by this.. When a Zorba goes beyond and becomes a Buddha then the foundation is still there… isnt it? Only now Buddha part is lived..

  169. garimo says:

    Meera,

    >>ps. Im not judging

    Shame on you.
    At least be honesty and total in your crazy bigotry.
    What kind of sannyasin are you?

  170. garimo says:

    >>Not sure what you mean by this.. When a Zorba goes beyond and becomes a Buddha then the foundation is still there… isnt it? Only now >>Buddha part is lived..

    It sounds to me Kranti like you have an idea of Zorba the Greek, and you have an idea of Buddha… But do not have Osho’s idea of Zorba the Buddha.

  171. meera says:

    THE NEW OSHO


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  172. garimo says:

    >Meera,

    >>>ps. Im not judging

    >Shame on you.
    >At least be honesty and total in your crazy bigotry.
    >What kind of sannyasin are you?

    Don’t let the little bit of guilt for not being rational hold you back from being completely disconected.

  173. meera says:

    GARIMO


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  174. frank says:

    funnily enough,if you actually read the book “zorba the greek” by nic the greek,you will realise that alcohol plays quite a large part in it.
    zorba eulogises the grape beautifully,and being zorba,backs his words with action and drinks.a lot.
    more than his recommended alcohol units per week,for sure.

    and as for these idiots who think that “zorba” means a bunch of wet-fart post hippie newage nuagers trying to do freaky dancing to computer generated dustbin-lid noises,well…….
    they are,what is known in sanskrit rhyming slang, as just a bunch of complete shiva shankers

  175. meera says:

    garimo

    SHAME
    is for the shamless christian crippled drunken religion

  176. meera says:

    frank

    you have never been to Greece

    you know only
    drunken HYPOCRITES
    SOLDIERS AND SLAVES
    of this society…

    you have never danced under the open sky….

  177. meera says:

    here is another of you western hypocrites….


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  178. meera says:

    so you drunken westerners

    wanna dictate and dominate and redicule
    indian sannyasins?!

    you suffer from too much boozing and eating meat…

    you are the same british COMMON-WEALTH IDIOTS

    suffering from a SUPERIORITYCOMPLEX


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  179. frank says:

    again,you will find that zorba himself was a soldier.
    he had fought the turks.
    suffered gunshot wounds.
    “only in the front,”
    and murdered innocent villagers.

    if you want to maintain a fantasy version zorba as a groovy yoghurt-weaving nuager ,don`t read the original book and find out for yourself.

    i`ve never been to greece
    and danced under the open sky?

    hahahaha
    i like your sense of humour.

  180. Kranti says:

    Possible Garimo.. It looks like I have not got what He means by Zorba the Buddha .. I am anot able to see a Buddha drinking to relax himself..

    I see Zorba more as someone not escaping the meterial world to search for spirituality ..So a Zorba the buddha is just somone who becomes spiritual in daily lif .. Right where he is.. I dont see him as a combination of some irreconcilable extremes..

  181. meera says:

    Zorba was a laborer

    and he is not everything…

    without becoming a
    BUDDHA
    ZORBA
    remains very poor..

    here you can watch a real
    ZORBA THE BUDDHA

    LOVE LIFE LAUGHTER AND MEDITATION


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  182. frank says:

    but i have to admit.
    being a complete asshole
    does get you a lot of attention.
    well done,meera.
    it`s working.

  183. meera says:

    all of you ´white race´

    have butcherd indeginous people

    AFRICANS INDIANS NATIVE AMERICANS

    and others

    and now you have started with the middle east…

    this is not Zorba
    but CRIMINAL

  184. meera says:

    frank
    I´m not a patriot

    nor is OSHO

    the f*cking drunken assholes
    are those criminals
    who behave in an inhuman way

  185. Kranti says:

    Show compassion to all Meera , as you are a awakened Master ..atleast awakened master’s awakened disciple..

  186. frank says:

    kranti,
    gurdjieff,whom osho was very fond of,was also a collossal boozer.
    he pretty much based his whole approach on it with his “toasting of the idiots”
    heavy drinking sessions with his disciples,calling each of them a certain kind of idiot,at a certain level of idiocy.
    ouspenski ended up heavily reliant on booze,too.
    alan watts was also a man putting away a bottle of vodka or more a day…..
    chogyam trungpa or was it drunkpa?drank himself to death.
    if you go back it`s endless.
    blavatsky was a hash-head.
    william james was a fullon nitrous guy.
    the upanishads guys were on “soma”
    shiva liked a chillum
    krishna was a sex-addict
    the 20 th entury
    acid,E,nitrous oxide….and some booze to bring you down to the planet again.

    if it wasn`t for all those trippers,piss-heads and freakout merchants,we probably wouldn`t have heard about meditation except from some strict celibate buddist guy with a face like he`s got a prickly pear stuck up his ass.

    again,respect where respect is due….

  187. Satya Deva says:

    meera // Nov 6, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    all of you ´white race´

    have butcherd indeginous people

    AFRICANS INDIANS NATIVE AMERICANS

    and others

    and now you have started with the middle east…

    You’re no longer “white” then, Meera?!

  188. meera says:

    THE
    POLITICIANS BECOME AFRAID
    only when something really significant is happening –
    and they are becoming afraid all around the world.
    IT IS A GOOD SIGN.
    It is
    immensely beautiful that my sannyasins are not being ignored, that’s the ugliest
    thing that can happen to anybody.

    What the German Chancellor has
    said is right:
    SANNYASINS ARE VERY DANGEROUS PEOPLE!
    Religion is always
    dangerous.
    The moment it is not dangerous it is no more religion at all. Jesus
    is dangerous, Christianity is not dangerous — hence Christianity has nothing to
    do with Jesus. Buddha is dangerous, Buddhists are not dangerous. They have
    turned against their Master, they have compromised with the society — with all
    that is rotten, dead, traditional.

    It is bound to be so. If you are
    trying to live a life authentically, lovingly,
    THEN THE POLITICIANS ARE BOUND TO
    BE AGAINST.
    They have created a society which is based on hatred, violence,
    division, distrust, cunningness, hypocrisy.
    And to be religious simply means to
    be against all these things.

    TO BE RELIGIOUS MEANS to live a
    life full of love, joy, innocence, freedom, individuality… to the extent that
    EVEN IF LIFE HAS TO BE SACRIFICED
    for the higher values of freedom, love, truth,
    then one sacrifices it joyously.
    It is worth!
    FREEDOM CANNOT BE SACRIFICED,
    bliss cannot be sacrificed,
    love cannot be sacrificed.
    And life is significant
    only
    if these things are flowering,
    blossoming.
    The moment these things are
    sacrificed there is no point in living,
    then life is simply
    vegetating.

    SOCRATES WAS GIVEN THE OPTION
    that if he stops talking
    to people about
    his philosophy
    of truth,
    then he can be
    released from the court
    and he can save his life.
    He laughed, and he simply
    rejected the very idea.
    What he said is something worth remembering.
    He said:
    “TO SAY THE TRUTH,
    TO LIVE THE TRUTH,
    IS MY LIFE!
    If I cannot say the truth,
    if
    I cannot live the truth,
    then for what I am supposed to live?”

    A LIFE IS LIFE ONLY
    WHEN THERE
    IS SOMETHING HIGHER IN IT
    — higher than life itself.
    Remember,
    only that which
    is higher than life
    brings significance to life,
    brings meaning to life.
    If life
    has nothing higher than itself,
    then it is empty, utterly futile
    – then it is
    absurd.

    I AM GIVING YOU SOMETHING
    TO
    LIVE
    AND
    SOMETHING TO DIE FOR!

    And the greatest joy in life is
    to have something
    to die for.
    Only when you have something to die for,
    you have something
    to live
    for.

    THIS KIND OF THREAT
    IS GOING TO
    HAPPEN ALL OVER THE WORLD…
    but is should be accepted -
    - not only accepted,
    welcomed.
    It is a good news!
    It is immensely satisfying
    that my sannyasins are
    making themselves felt.

    OSHO
    The Wild
    Geese
    and the Water

    #2: Religion is Rebellion

  189. Kranti says:

    Frankk..thats great info.. for a moment I thought it was posted by meera and shocked.. then I realized it is your post..

    Yes..what you are saying is right.. It also puts this whole enlightenment business in a different perspective

    And the guys who didnt drink were not that great either.. They made people worship them , falling at the feet etc.. thats is worse than drinking.. they created religions & followers..

  190. garimo says:

    >>gurdjieff,whom osho was very fond of,was also a collossal boozer.

    As was Alan Watts rumored to be… That’s why I was reminded of him today. Even so I used to love listening to his radio programs here in the bay area… But I don’t think he drank while doing talks.

  191. Kranti says:

    ” chogyam trungpa or was it drunkpa ”

    Thats is Frank’s post. Anytime I can identify..

  192. Kranti says:

    ” krishna was a sex-addict ‘

    21st century description of

    Glorified ” Krishna playing flute aurrounded by Gopikas ‘ description of old times..

  193. garimo says:

    Some guy prefered turning water into wine…

  194. Kranti says:

    ‘ Some guy prefered turning water into wine…’

    So the focus of people was on the miracle not the content..

  195. Kranti says:

    That reminds me of a death of one priest during my collge days..

    At a old age he was burned to death..The rumour was he was so old and weak he put the cigaratte on his own bed and couldnt move away.. just a rumour..But possibble..

    Whenever i go to those hostel of priests i was lovingly asked whether i need some home ( hostel ) made drugs..

  196. garimo says:

    > So the focus of people was on the miracle not the content..

    He didn’t choose cola or orange juice.

  197. Kranti says:

    Frank your friend drunkpa was real master..I got this from wikipedia..

    ” Trungpa’s sexuality has been one of the sources of controversy, as he cultivated relations with a number of his female students….
    Trungpa was also known for smoking tobacco and for his liberal use of alcohol…… Before his coming to America, Trungpa drove a sports car into a joke shop in Dumfries, Scotland….. Later he described this event as a pivotal moment which inspired the course of his teachings….. He often combined drinking with teaching ”

    I think most of these Buddhist monks never got awakened and all if there is something called awakening exists.. they were there by accident and continued the in the line as a’ career ‘ option..

    I also read / hear that they also bullshit a lot about ‘ Incarnations ‘ type of stuff.. Holy shit… they cant even remember themselves while driving..

    With the advent of internet we come to know about so many things.. So the pure images of old masters must be mostly imagination..

  198. Kranti says:

    ” He didn’t choose cola or orange juice.”

    Must have been a techical / chemical problem in performing the miracle..

  199. Anthony thompson says:

    Meera. Your ignorance feels your youtube fight in this forum.

    The character of Kazantzakis book, Zorba was a heavy drinker who danced drunk under the sky and frequented hookers. That was the character. He was not a new age organic eater vegan who got intoxicated by the moon. he was a drunk who liked payed women and getting wasted under the Greek sky.
    Please Read the BOOK!!!

    I have been to Greece and what you are suggesting is highly dangerous. If you go dance in the night to the beach you run a serious risk to get raped in if you are a woman or mugged if you are a man.

    I would suggest you do that in a group.. never by yourself..

  200. meera says:

    Anthony
    one can make out that you are a scotchcdrinker
    sitting whole day in your library
    reading books

    you never danced under the fullmoon

    Crete
    you visited as a tourist
    with a rented guestroom

    I spent one year in Crete
    before I returned to India

    living in an oldhouse up in the mountains

    many night I came down to the beach
    even in lonely winternights
    I went to the disco
    to dance
    with hardly anyone except a few locals
    the policeofficer of the village
    came specially everytime
    to see me dancing….

    this is not a fantasy story of mine…

    it all happend in 1982 when Osho went to America

    in 1983 I took permanent residence in Goa
    in an old portuguese villa until
    osho left his body in 1990

    I became famous as the
    ´goa -technoparty-queen´

    1001 nights
    under starry indian skys…

    my whole trip I have done alone
    travelling through India without any money

    GURDJEFF also
    was a crazy guy
    he used to drink so much .. just to finish these men..

    his whole life he devoted for his crazy trip
    creating houses for people
    and develope all kind of crazy methods for them

    at one time he was dragging dead stinking corpes
    through the Taiga of Russia..

    just to create a scene

    master have to use strange methods at times
    to wake the sleepy people up

  201. Anthony thompson says:

    I have danced enough under the moon… and also been to Crete in the late nineties to tell you that if you go dance in the night alone to the beach you are looking for trouble.

    Child, your behavior shows a serious personality problem. You have reality judgment impediment. Perhpas it was too much MDM in goa, or the side effects of gonorrhea… but seriously… get a lover or something. I know it is not that easy in our ages, but, lady… it will make you feel much better.

    I only drink Chilean red wine.

  202. meera says:

    and thompson

    if you have nothing else to say about
    these videos ..
    just calling them a fight of mine

    i can see YOUR IGNORANCE towards existence

    all these beautiful lovers of
    OSHO
    who managed to create such loving celebrative events…

    and since most of them are indians
    I can see your
    jealous racists inclinations towards them

    you remind me of the british colonels

    you must be a reborn colonel
    of the former british empire

    thats it
    if you deal with a
    SEERESS LOL

  203. meera says:

    in the late ninetieth you have danced hahahaaa

    just before jumping off into your grave it seems

    lover… hahahaaa there are no lovers …

    only total nutcases like you…. thompson…

    keep on drinking the wine
    of a poor thirld world country…
    back in your old england
    or wherever you might be…

  204. Anthony thompson says:

    “keep on drinking the wine
    of a poor thirld world country…
    back in your old england
    or wherever you might be…”

    See, this is what I call “reality judgment impediment”.
    I am not a Brit drinking southamerican wine. I am Chilean. I am not white, I am a latino. Chile is not a poor third world country.
    I live and work in Chile. And I have traveled around the world for my research projects. i am not a library researcher, i am an experiential researcher.

    Seriously,… get a lover… you will feel better.

  205. meera says:

    good anthony
    after all
    i came to know you little better…

    what do you believe of yourself..
    are you a good lover?

    here something from indian wisdom for your collection:

    Moving from temples to mosque I didn’t found you,

    But having a jump within I disappeared in you.

    We light candles and lamps for celebration and feel the joy of festivity.
    But when your inner self gets kindled,
    life becomes a celebration.
    Seek for a master and he will guide you on the path,
    then only can you know bliss, benediction.

  206. Anthony thompson says:

    am i a good lover?
    sorry lady, I like younger girls…
    nothing personal… but no thanks

  207. Shanti says:

    Really… Anthony?
    how young?

  208. Anthony thompson says:

    Well it depends on the taxidermist … but rarely below forty.
    I am 64.In Chile we have a saying ” Old bulls prefer young grass”… I kind of feel like that….

  209. Shanti says:

    …shame. I am 44

  210. Anthony thompson says:

    As i said before.. it all depends on the taxidermist…

  211. frank says:

    garimo,
    excuse me i forgot all about that jewish mobile wine-shop guy.
    also moses.i cant remember the story,but it involved some heavy tablets ,burning bush and seeing god or something…

    also alan watts did drink during lectures.his alcoholism was not a rumour.it is corroborated by everyone who knew him.
    still,those talks you mentioned were and are still great…
    no wonder osho dedicated his nitrous oxide books to him.

    watts and trungpa were a little similar in that they came from very strict backgrounds,watts with his church of england public school thing and trungpa with his monastic training.both quite spartan,uptight and violent.
    when these guys hit the trips andthe booze and the the crazy young people who went with it,i think it was just too far to leap in one lifetime–futureshock.

    but i love the story about trungpa seeing the light after he crashed into the jokeshop–cosmic joke or what?
    that`s when he took his robes off and got in trouble with his superiors.

  212. meera says:

    hahaha I knew that thompson is an old horny greenhorn
    who can´t get it up anymore
    and is running after young chicks

    these kind of people were also attracted to osho..
    not to him personally when he was in his body.. no…
    after he left his body all these old dirty dicks came sniffing around HAHAHAHAHAAAAA

  213. meera says:

    thompson.. you missed the train….

    ´ Only the chosen ones,
    those who search on the path know the Omkar.´

    There is a saying in china:
    if 100 go on the path only one finds him.

    If you have the quest, you start doing efforts for it. ´

  214. meera says:

    frank
    you seem to be worried about this alcoholproblem

    alcohol was even served in ´meera´at the ashram

    once in while there is no harm in drinking alcohol

    if you drink everyday
    you are already considered as an alcoholic

    I´m talking about alcoholism..
    which is one of the most horrible diseases
    I ever came across

    it happens for all kinds of people
    rich and poor

  215. frank says:

    the MDMA mahatma is preaching again….

    goa burnout stuck in koln with a bunch of kolsch beer drinkers.

    hahahaha

    thats what i call karma.

    enjoy the come-down,love.

  216. Kranti says:

    Meera..It is good to hear you have danced so much..I really felt jealous when you talk about dancing under the open sky for 1001 nights…

    But the dancer has not disappeared..rather dancing seems to have disappeared now.. leaving behind a angry dancer..

  217. Kranti says:

    Shanti , Are you really 44 or you mentioned your age like that to impress the Pshychology lecturer?

  218. meera says:

    angry… yes …because humanity is cruel …

    human beings damaging the earth and themselfes

    as long as I´m here
    I keep on hammering on rocks

    let me be angry with these idiots

    at least there is a chance
    that few people might wake up

    we cannot leave everything to the mean and greedy

  219. meera says:

    frank
    on what other drugs are you usally
    except alcohol?
    where do you live?
    and what are you doing?
    what is your connection to osho and sannyasins?

  220. Kranti says:

    ” what is your connection to osho and sannyasins?”

    Frank..This is a real punch.. You have to come up wth something to reclaim your space..

  221. Kranti says:

    It is a long time since Shantam posted..He would have become a Zen Master i think..or may be joined Rajneesh camp..

  222. shantam prem says:

    One Ma is Sagitarious another Gemini, just opposite to each other, so it is an astrology at work to see two cats scratching each other.

    And Anthony, is it a new thing that Old men prefer young chick? This was always so, thousands years before the Vigara was discoverd.
    It is pity, Osho was born before his time*

    I think for this reason people become successful so that they yield the power over the opposite sex.

    Look at Madonna?
    The Arche type man in the woman´s body.

    Shanti dear, i am sure you are not a woman of low self esteem looking for a daddy to cross the road and to buy the ice cream.
    It is always nicer to be with the same age group people, not just physically but inwardly too.

  223. shantam prem says:

    Kranti,
    When i read your posts, it motivates me to push the British Irish Empire out of Poona, because than human warmth can again enter the ashram.

    for years and in every season one could walk on the same roads without saying Hallo and than you miss the person if next season he/she is not there.

    Meditation techniques and discourses are good but the real work happens in the attraction and friction of the people. Even the STAR among the stars was living His whole life in the jungle with His people.

    The high level names you mention sometimes may have achieved the last kick but they sound like fiction writers, specially in the catagory erotica. Just bliss ……

  224. prem bubbie says:

    Hey everyone… how’s the collection plate for meera coming along? She’s busting another gasket and she needs a mechanic soon!!!! As for Alan Watts, from what I remember, Osho loved this guy because he spoke from his many satori’s he had and lived almost like Zorba. A rare flower indeed!!! Since we are all Buddhas anyway but don’t know it and we continually live like Zorba-Osho is just trying to help for us to merge both while we are living on this earth. Alan Watts definitely enjoyed his booze, but loved to fuck those bohemian chicks, he chained smoked cigars(inhaled), and liked to party. That’s pretty fucking close to a Zorba the Buddha as one can get. Meera: are you actually Herman Goerhig in drag? Man, you’re a fucking Nazi big time!!!!! —with a twist!!!!

  225. prem bubbie says:

    Alan Watt’s autobiography called: “In My Own Way” orange cover paperback– how fitting. Great read!!!

  226. prem bubbie says:

    I remember reading about one of the earlier Dalai Lamas from the middle ages… He supposedly hung out in saloons and places of “ill” repute. It got so that the Mongol dictators could not stand that the “holiest” person was doing that, so one evening soldiers came and dragged the Dalai Lama away not to be heard from again. Too bad, now more than ever Tibet needs a character like that, unlike the big fraud and failure the current Dalai Lama that theTibetans have. I used to admire the current guy, but since China’s rise to power, it just shows what kind of clown this guy is along with his closest monk advisers. i better stop now, don’t want to go off on a tangent with this loser.

  227. meera says:

    prem bubbie
    you missed SATSANG:::::::::

  228. shantam prem says:

    Meera.
    Why you sponser all these gurus and their satsangs.

    In India it is a common saying that wives who are unhappy in their married life, find solace in Satsangs. it is surely a healthy way of energy transformation.

    Is Mr. Premananda an ex. sannyasin? I think i have seen him few times in Pune.

  229. meera says:

    yes shantam prem he is…..

    are you married ?

    osho talked about the family
    being the rootcause of all evil

  230. Anthony thompson says:

    Bubbie. I am highly interested in your criticism of the current dalai lama. please continue…

  231. shantam prem says:

    osho talked about the family
    being the rootcause of all evil….

    And what is the root cause of all
    goodness?

    (May be the Satsangs with the thugs)

    I think it is a time to be grown up. Osho talked this Osho talked that…so what. Where are the results?

    Guinea pigs got all the injection of wierd thoughts in their brain and now they are playing like the broken records.

    Listen the thoughts of Osho, use them as weapons to cover one´s own sicknesses but follow your Irish, American, German or Indian conditioning.

    When Osho says something it has some gravity but when most of the sannyasins quote Him to settle their scores is like a little child with box of tampons* thinking how cool these ear buds are!

  232. Satya Deva says:

    Meera, your stock answer to your many critics here is that they’re merely “projecting” their own stuff on to you, right?

    Why not apply a similar criterion to your own continual whining about the state of the world and the men, politicians and others, who made it?

    Do you understand?

    Let me help you…

    Your bitterly angry outpourings about ‘the world’ are just metaphors for your own unhappy condition…

    It’s YOUR world you really mean, it’s essentially the men who haven’t loved you, the men you’ve never loved…

    And on top of all that failure, whatever traumas you went through long ago, from when you were just a little girl (and onwards)…

    You don’t fool me or anyone else here, I imagine…You’re just a very sad, angry – and desperate – woman…

    Taking refuge in these total delusions of ‘spiritual grandeur’…

    As I said yesterday, admit it to yourself, at least, even if you can’t, daren’t or won’t admit it at this public place.

    Your personal disappointment in love is behind all this poison

  233. garimo says:

    So it seems we can take to heart Satya Deva that there’s someone more miserible than we are.

  234. prem bubbie says:

    Ok I’ll do a little more ranting about Mr. Wonderman, the dalai lama. Since his escape from Tibet some 50 years ago, mr. lama has been seeking allies, supporters for his free tibet, anti-communist cause. He found many in the west, particularly in the U.S. ready to give “support”. First, he was counseled by his “oracle”, shocking as it may be “oracles” still exist, they didn’t die off in ancient greece. this “oracle” is an elder monk who sits next to His Numbness during their “mass”. He goes into a trance and gives “holy” advice to the dalai, even foreign policy and long term policy advice. Back then and up until the the early 2000′s the policy of the lama was a more adversarial and confrontational one towards China. Gathering strong political allies to squeeze China into leaving Tibet, either by economic means or even by military means. Many of the lama’s friends in the U.S. were right-wing extremists and so-called anti-communists. One of those was a senator in congress named Jesse Helmes. He’s been dead for about 8 years but those of you americans knew him to be a fanatic. Many also think that this guy was the closet thing to a neo-nazi the federal government ever had. Kind of an Augusto Pinochet with a southern drawl. The lama also in 1999 insisted that Great Britian not turn over Pinochet to Spain to stand trial for murder. I do believe the lama was even friends with Pinochet. Well the lama supposedly had many such friends, back then. These people were actually not anti- communists and pro-freedom loving/pro-democratists but pro-corporatists/capitalists. It actually looks better if you wave the flag of pro-democracy than to say you believe in a few rich people ruling the world. Hopefully many reading this know that capitalists will do business with ANYBODY. Kings/Queens, military dictators, socialists and even “communists”, as long as they get to keep a big chuck of the money. Now this is what happened to China, it turned from a “communist” proletariat state to a communist -for profit state starting in around 1993. What happened to the democracy part of the revolutuion? What happened to the freedom for Tibet part of the change in China? What happened to all of The lama’s supporters? They bailed out, they abandoned the lama and free tibeters. All for the greed, all for the profit, all for the big businesses. Damn the democracy, it’s crimping the profits!!!!. The lama who? This is what the lama gets for taking advice from an old fart called the oracle!!! Now the oracle tells the lama to have a policy of appeasement and cooperation with the commie- pinko Chinese. So, what a failure both those clown prince monks are. For the last 50 years that oracle has been giving his Dumbness the wrong advice. He trusted the wrong people to help him win Tibet’s freedom. Now we are to believe this demented old oracle’s new advice??!! China is still a totalitarian regime, they were under Mao tse-”dung” and are now under the corporations/military. All this wealth has gone to a select few in China. All the companies both local and foreign are 50% owned by the military and the communist party hierarchy. This wealth has only empowered these slimeballs. The western anti communists really screwed the tibetan people with the Dalai Lama as the middle man. So what, that this crooked clown knows occult parlor tricks. Anyone can learn them. Parlor tricks they are. Easy to learn. Common sense and street wiseness are a bit more difficult to master. maybe the next Dali lama should come from an urban area where mental toughness and common sense are taught on a daily level. that with some True compassion and a western boycott of chinese products may help get tibet the freedom it desperately needs. Hit China in the pocketbook. Or is it too late?

  235. prem bubbie says:

    maybe the lama needed some sort of banner to fly, to protect his position as head of the Tibetan government. A free Tibet, anti communist chinese banner is a pretty good one to fly. What else is he good for? To practice parlor tricks? In this modern day of age, that would be worn out rather quickly. A politician needs a cause to stay in business.

  236. Kranti says:

    Prem Bubbie

    Thanks for info on lama.. I had always wondered what this guy is up to..given his involvemenet in political dramas.. Recently I was invited by a friend of mine to a celebration in India which this lama may attend & inaugarate.. I was thinking whether it was worthwhile to go..

  237. shantam prem says:

    Prem Bubbie, nice piece.
    Thanks God, every American is not feeling teary for the underdog and mystfied by his holiness kind of door to door sellers, who travel without any winter jacket.
    Those who could not see Jesus walking on water feel enchanted by the people who walk with bare arms when most are freezing in their
    Jack wolfskins.

    This is true for Meera´s full moon too.

    How beautiful it will be if our Meera appreciate the beauty of half moon too.

  238. meera says:

    quote shantam :

    ´I think it is a time to be grown up. Osho talked this Osho talked that…so what. Where are the results?

    Guinea pigs got all the injection of wierd thoughts in their brain and now they are playing like the broken records.

    Listen the thoughts of Osho, use them as weapons to cover one´s own sicknesses but follow your Irish, American, German or Indian conditioning.

    When Osho says something it has some gravity but when most of the sannyasins quote Him to settle their scores is like a little child with box of tampons* thinking how cool these ear buds are!´

    Shantam
    if you believe that osho is an old chrack-pot
    then what is the point of you calling yourself sannyasin??!!

    if you have not noticed what the rootcause of all evil is
    thats not osho´s fault
    its your own unawareness…

    because of families
    there are priests and politicians..
    dominating enslaving humanity……….

    CAN´T YOU SEEEEEE?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  239. meera says:

    Satya >Deva

    you cannot even help yourself what to say about others…

    this world is dominated by priests and politicians

    there is no need to love them

    they don´t love you either
    they only suck your money and lifeenergy
    with the purpose to destroy the planet with their war-machinerIe

    you are part of this insane society…

    I AM NOT

    I AM A WAKEUP CALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  240. meera says:

    If you are uncreative it simply means that you must have practised your religion, you must have forced yourself into a certain pattern, and you have got blocked, frozen in that pattern.

    A religious person is flowing, streaming, river-like; seeking, exploring, always seeking and exploring the unknown, always dropping the known and going into the unknown, always choosing the unknown for the known, sacrificing the known for the unknown. And always ready.

    A religious man is a wanderer, a vagabond; into the innermost world he goes on wandering moving from one place to another. He wants to know all the spaces that are involved in his being.

    Be more creative. Dance, and don’t bother whether somebody likes your dance or not — that is not the question. If you can get dissolved into it, you are a dancer.

    Write poetry. There is no need even to show it to anybody. If you enjoy it, write it and burn it. Play on your flute or guitar or sitar. You must see our tabla-player, Bodhi. How meditatively he plays on his tabla! That’s his meditation. He is growing: going into it, dissolving, melting.

    The subjective is the realm of all art and creativity.

    OSHO

  241. Satya Deva says:

    Meera, you are simply hiding your own utter unhappiness behind all this grandiose stuff about ‘the state of the world’ (all borrowed from Osho and others, of course).

    These ‘analyses’ may or may not be accurate, but the point is that the person presenting them, ie you, is coming from personal misery, a very unclear space. Obvious to all by your random, misplaced attacks on others here, the whole way you present yourself in fact.

    So these borrowed pronouncements have no power, they’re merely the outpourings of unhappiness.

    So at the moment, from present evidence, you’re nothing ‘special’ at all, Meera, you’re just another mediocrity, another ‘little person’ desperately trying to be ‘big’!

    (And, btw, no need to turn it back on to me, I already know I’m mediocre, probably terminally flawed, my own worst enemy etc. etc.

    And Fuck ‘enlightenment’ – even I can see through your rubbish!)

  242. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    ”Be more creative. Dance, and don’t bother whether somebody likes your dance or not — that is not the question. If you can get dissolved into it, you are a dancer.

    Write poetry. There is no need even to show it to anybody. If you enjoy it, write it and burn it. Play on your flute or guitar or sitar. ”

    then why are you telling us all about your dancing stories Dearie !

  243. meera says:

    you are another one
    who is not in love with Osho Pavitro

    ´ And Fuck ‘enlightenment’ – even I can see through your rubbish!)´

    Satya Deva you cannot see anything

    and there is no point in explaining to a blind man

    what LIGHT IS

    you just wanna be ´special´
    that is you EGO GAME
    your unhappiness is suppressed
    under a thick layer
    of rationalisations…
    so that you cannot become vurnable

    you cannot weep…

    you can only argue about nothing

    it won´t lead you anywhere….

    I´m not arguing with blind people about what light is..

    there is no point in arguing…

    open your eyes
    and

    seeeeeeeeee YOURSELF

  244. meera says:

    Communion is a totally different phenomenon from communication. Communication is from intellect to intellect. For that, the physical presence is helpful. But communion is a totally different phenomenon — it is a love affair.

    The hearts can beat in the same rhythm thousands of miles apart. Even if you are on another planet, it doesn’t matter; the hearts can dance in the same rhythm with the Master, and then there is communion. You can be here physically with me, but if your heart is not beating with me, if you are not attuned with me, then communication is happening — I am talking to you, you are listening to me — but communion is not happening. And the relationship between a disciple and a master is that of communion, it is a love affair.

    Trungpa knows nothing about it. He is not a master, just a teacher. And remember the difference between a teacher and a master: A teacher is one who can inform you, the master is one who can transform you. The teacher teaches you, the master gives you a new birth. The master is like a midwife: he helps you come out of the cocoon of your mind, he makes you twice born.

    There is no question of physical communication, so “directly and thoroughly” does not mean physically. Yes, “directly and thoroughly” means something different. According to me, if your ego is completely put aside, if the disciple is ready to trust, then there is a direct communication — direct, immediate. Even words are not needed, nothing is needed. And it is thorough communion too — total. It is an immersion.

    It is like two lovers getting into a deep orgasmic state; that is a physical orgasm. The same thing happens on a higher plane with the Master; it is a spiritual orgasm. Your soul and the soul of the master meet and merge, melt, lose their boundaries. And there is tremendous joy — a great bliss surrounds you, a great grace descends in you.

    James, Buddha had forty thousand disciples. Do you think it was possible for him to physically communicate “directly and thoroughly” with each one? Mahavira also had forty thousand disciples; it would have been impossible. But buddha helped many more people to become enlightened than anybody else on the whole earth and in the whole history of man. How he helped? Yes, there was a direct and thorough communion, but it was a silent phenomenon….

    Communion is possible. Two hundred thousand or twenty hundred thousand… it makes no difference. As far as I am concerned, to commune with one person or to commune with one hundred million persons is the same — because communion from my side is a simple phenomenon. I am just a zero. All that is needed is a preparation on your part: if you are also a zero, then two zeros become one zero. And thousands of zeros can go on meeting and disappearing into one zero.

    Neither fame should be decisive nor your expectations, but only your heart. If your heart says take the jump, then take the jump; then risk, then be adventurous.

    And i will become more and more inaccessible. As the new commune arrives, I will become more and more inaccessible to you physically, so that I can become more accessible spiritually. I am going to be silent sooner or later, I am not going to speak at all. So be quick — get out of your kindergarten classes. Be fast! Don’t waste time and don’t postpone.

    Osho
    Come, Come, Yet Again Come
    Ch #8: Silence and song meet
    am in Buddha Hall
    [part 3 of 3]

  245. Satya Deva says:

    garimo Nov 7, 2009 at 2:40 am

    So it seems we can take to heart Satya Deva that there’s someone more miserible than we are

    Yes, Garimo, that’s always one of the great benefits of people like Meera, isn’t it…that one can feel more or less ‘ok’ in comparison!

    Thanks for pointing that out, btw, it’s good to bring it in to keep things in perspective.

  246. Kranti says:

    Meera..Just one straight question

    Are you posting these on your own or because Rajneesh asked you to use these posts as a Zen stick against all the mediocre people who are posting here… Atleast let me understand what the person / intention behind the posts.. I don’t see it as a ‘ sharing ‘.. It is more preaching / reactions / outbursts etc etc.. a though you are hell bent on making people understand something but failing miserably in that process..

  247. Satya Deva says:

    Meera wrote:

    Satya Deva you cannot see anything

    and there is no point in explaining to a blind man

    what LIGHT IS

    you just wanna be ´special´
    that is you EGO GAME
    your unhappiness is suppressed
    under a thick layer
    of rationalisations…
    so that you cannot become vurnable

    you cannot weep…

    you can only argue about nothing

    it won´t lead you anywhere….

    I´m not arguing with blind people about what light is..

    there is no point in arguing…

    open your eyes
    and

    seeeeeeeeee YOURSELF

    Meera, again you describe yourself.

    See that and then hop[efully take your own advice, please.

  248. Satya Deva says:

    Meera reminds me of some sort of fundamentalist preacher, ranting and raving about the error of others’ (almost everyone’s, it seems) ways, more or less implying we’re bound for hell, as we’re all ‘miserable sinners’!

    No real well-being, peace, compassion communicated…And certainly no love…

    Just self-righteous anger, hatred, judgment…

    Using the words of a Master to hide her reality – from others and from herself…

    Utterly dishonest, utterly unconscious.

    Wouldn’t trust her if she had a gun or grenade in her hand (or in her pocket)….

  249. Anthony thompson says:

    Meera. child. If you can get three people to write in this forum saying that they love you, I will begin to pay attention to what you say. otherwise it just looks like a sad, lonely angry old woman rationalizing her pain by telling everybody how wrong they are.
    I am waiting… and I have access to check the IP numbers, so do not do it yourself.
    And yes Garimo there are people more fucked up than we are.
    Bubbie thanks for the piece on the old lama.

  250. Kranti says:

    ” Wouldn’t trust her if she had a gun or grenade in her hand (or in her pocket)….”

    If Meera is Rajneesh i was wondering where will he keep the gun..as he does not wear shirts / pants.. May be he will use his Zen guns

  251. meera says:

    Satya Deva
    reminds me of some sort of HATE-preacher,
    ranting and raving about the error of others’
    No real well-being, peace, compassion communicated…And certainly no love…

    Just self-righteous anger, hatred, judgment…

    Using the words of a Master to hide hIS reality – from others and from hIMself…

    Utterly dishonest, utterly unconscious.

    Wouldn’t trust her if HE had a gun or grenade in hIS hand (or in her pocket)….

    (almost everyone’s, it seems) ways, more or less implying we’re bound for hell, as we’re all ‘miserable sinners’!

    SATYA DEVA

    the only SIN is FORGETFULNEES

    you are indulged in this
    insane society…
    which has nothing to do with life

    WHICH IS AGAINST LIFE

    SAMMASATI

    REMEMBER WHO YOU ARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  252. meera says:

    ANTHONY

    you are a childish immature person who depends in the judgement of other childish loveless immature people..

    there is no point in being in love with idiots..

  253. meera says:

    kranti wrote:

    ´ Are you posting these on your own or because Rajneesh asked you to use these posts as a Zen stick against all the mediocre people who are posting here…´

    kranti
    what nonsense are you talking..

    you indian men have no regards for women
    you look at women as if they are plastic dolls without a brain…

    kranti pls. start listening to Osho .. read osho

    maybe then you will come to know whats all about…

    DO YOU KNOW
    HOW MUCH OSHO TALKED AGAINST
    PRIESTS AND POLITICIANS??!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    JUST TO HELP YOU
    TO GET OUT OF YOUR PRISON AND SLAVERY
    GIVEN TO YOU BY SOCIETY:::

  254. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    Hey Dearie (meera) , thanks for your certificate , you right lam not in love with your osho , lam in love with Bhagwan

  255. Satya Deva says:

    Satya Deva // Nov 7, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    garimo Nov 7, 2009 at 2:40 am

    So it seems we can take to heart Satya Deva that there’s someone more miserible than we are

    Yes, Garimo, that’s always one of the great benefits of people like Meera, isn’t it…that one can feel more or less ‘ok’ in comparison!

    Thanks for pointing that out, btw, it’s good to bring it in to keep things in perspective.

    But challenging Meera’s ruibbish doesn’t negate the possiblity of compassion for her, no matter how our minds might, at some level, somehow even perversely ‘enjoy’ her obvious disturbance.

    After all, what a state to be in, my God!

    But her rubbish has to be challenged first, we can’t let it go, as it’s also potentially dangerous rubbish, and not only to her.

    Further evidence that the roots of religious fanaticism and violence lie in unhappiness.

    What Meera is blind to is that the source of what she sees as threatening the future of the world is right there, inside her, not outside her….

  256. Anthony thompson says:

    Meera you say: “there is no point in being in love with idiots.”

    I´m sorry i did not know you were that lonely. I did not mean tio hurt you
    You need help… and love… but the way you attract attention will not get you there…
    I feel sorry for you

  257. Anand says:

    Reading Meera’s insanities, I understand the point of ‘banning’. She is trashing this forum, which had a certain kind of civilized exchange between different opinions until her arrival on the scene.
    People like this consider themselves masters in their own right and have a fixed opinion about everything and attack the whole world. She also shows me, that therapies in Osho’s places did a lot of good to a lot of people, who particpated.
    Meera decided to spend her years away from where growth was happening to Osho’s sannaysins and to repeat like a parrot certain Osho phrases.
    I hope she and swami rajneesh disappear from this forum soon and there are more friendly discussions happening again, beside her lunatic attacks.
    And Meera, I have been also with Osho for 35 years, eat no meat and drink no alcohol. Your mind set is an insult to vegetarians.

  258. Kranti says:

    Meera All I asked is whether you are posting on your own or at the request of Rajneesh.. What it has got do with respecting women or not.. How did you see me not respecting women from that post..

    I think you have projected that on me..

    Infact the very fact i respect and love you i am replying to your messages.. Why dont you see that.. Infact everyone in this forum seems to be very concerned about you

  259. Kranti says:

    This thread has become a therapy session

  260. Kranti says:

    I am also worried whether Meera or someone in the name of Meera is making a fool of everyone..

  261. frank says:

    regarding bag-lady she rajneesh.
    well,everyone could ignore her.
    you know thats how tribes in the bush used to do it.
    the lack of attention would probably lead to an increased destructive outburst followed by exhaustion and ego-death.

    just the job!

  262. frank says:

    bubbie`s right about dalai lama.
    even without the oracle,he had some seriously bad advice from his advisers.

    i,myself wrote to him several times and advised him to grow his hair a bit and get himself a girlfriend.
    he could have easily pulled himself a california girl (or two).
    did he take my advice?
    i never even got a call back.

    he listens to the wrong people.

  263. frank says:

    i guess that,all in all,the tibetan boozists are a lot better at boozing than politics.

    i`ve raised my wrist a few times with some of those guys.
    they know how to put it away,for sure.
    filthy stuff,tho`,that chang.

  264. garimo says:

    I think the most useful lesson I learned in doing a encounter group was that misery is a decision, that it’s a choice.

    It was in the winter of ’81/82′. people were coming to the US. And Teertha was having a group in Miami, in the Discovery Room
    of the Columbus Hotel. I was 25 yrs. old in a place I will never forget.
    There were about 60 of us. After a full day of dancing, ripping off clothes, screaming and tears and laughter… Everyone was pretty
    much exhausted, dressed and ready to go home, and Teertha had us all gather together in a large circle. He talked for a bit and then gave us a assignment for the night. He told up to look around the room and if we saw someone we wanted to be with that night to be with them, and if they were already with someone… be with them anyway.

    So we looked around and eventually eleven of us decided to go home together. It was a scary time of pushing boundaries, taking risks and breaking conditionings. It was magical and I don’t know how it all came together, it just happened. (In those days Teertha was still Bhagwans medium and I’m sure at one point that day I saw a white misty face of Bhagwan hovering about two feet in front of Teertha’s face… But then I was a bliss ninny swiring in energy in those days.)

    Anyway, on the way to the boathouse we were staying that night on the Miami river… I have no idea how it was decided… I was just in the flow… someone picked up a little rum, we made light dinner… and eventually we nervously drifted off to the bedroom and became a group a naked people trying to make sex happen, but after a bit we just ended up a naked group of people laughing and cuddling… and then we went off to our bedding and to sleep for the night.

    The next morning back in the discovery room our group was ecstatic and full of energy as were many others who had taken risks. But then there were also people who were not. It was a very clear dynamic. The people who had gone through their fears were happy and alive and the people who had not risked and listened to their fear were in their misery.

    Theerta separated the ecstatic people on one side of the room and the miserable on the other side of the room, and that’s when he gave his little talk on misery being a decision.
    Existence presents us with situations and it’s our choice of how we choose to respond. But what made it so memorable was not just the words but the demonstration that was happening in that moment. The reality that there are consequences for the choices I make became very real for me. I am responsible for how I experience my world regardless of what is being presented to me.

    Oh Meera, the song you sing “see me beautiful, see me lovely” is not being heard over the energy barrier you create with your words.
    Communication is also a responsiility and there are so many ways to sing “See me beautiful, see me lovely…” It’s what we all sing but so often the words are getting lost under so many things.

  265. Anthony thompson says:

    Thank you Garimo. For the story. I am touched. I did many groups with Teertha as Paul Lowe and had similar experiences to yours… thank you for bringing those memories back.

    Frank… A pleasure to read you….
    Meera. no need to be so sad and angry… just let it go…

  266. frank says:

    right on garimo
    and anthony
    cue….group cyberhug!

  267. garimo says:

    >>cue….group cyberhug!

    first the drinking and the fighting and now the hugging…

    Seems natural.

  268. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    Yes Bhagwan is the only master who dared , humanity will never see another one , he created this experiment , and the ones who jump into the fire & who continue to jump into the fire will know it ! yes a group hug to all !

  269. meera says:

    MOSKOWITZ, HOROWITZ AND SHAPIRO go on safari, where they are captured by a large tribe of fierce and hostile savages.
    Bound and helpless, they are brought before the chief. Pointing to Moskowitz, he says, “You have a choice: death or chi-chi?”
    “What could be worse than death?” cries Moskowitz, “I’ll take chi-chi!”
    There is a loud cheer, and he is seized and viciously sodomized by the entire tribe.
    The next day, the chief says to Horowitz, “Death or chi-chi?”
    Horowitz trembles and says, “Chi-chi!” and he too is abused by the whole tribe.
    The next morning, Shapiro is summoned to the chief and is asked the same question: “Death or chi-chi?”
    Shapiro, who has watched the fate of his friends, looks the chief right in the eyes, and says, “Death!”
    “Terrific!” says the chief, and turning to the assembled tribe, yells, “Death by chi-chi!”

    JUST BE SILENT and you will discover an immense laughter that is going on all around the earth. Trees are laughing, birds are laughing. Except man, there seems to be nobody who is sad. This sadness is because of your clinging to the words.

    LET YOUR LIFE BE A LIFE OF A DANCING AND LAUGHING SILENCE, and you have entered into the only authentic temple of godliness.

    I am not interested in what kind of ideologies you are carrying in your head, they are all bullshit. I want you to drop them all, irrespective of what they are. LET YOUR WHOLE BEING BE FILLED WITH LAUGHTER. Let yourself be singing, let each fiber of your being be a part of the universal dance. To me, this is the only revolution, the only transformation which can bring this earth millions of joys.

    IT IS OUR OWN STUPIDITY THAT WE HAVE BEEN LISTENING TO IDIOTS OF ALL KINDS. And their whole purpose is to make us sad. Because if they succeed in making humanity sad and serious, they have taken away the possibility of your being in tune with the tremendous festivity that surrounds you. And now that you are taken away from the universal festival, you can be exploited, enslaved, oppressed. Every kind of crime can be done to you, and you will not revolt.

    ONLY LAUGHTER CAN BE A REVOLT, A REVOLUTION, A TRANSFORMATION. Start laughing against your so-called “religious” pretenders, hypocrites. Start laughing about your politicians, who have been deceiving mankind for centuries. Don’t pay any attention to this whole gang of criminals, and we can enter into an absolutely new era, where everybody is joyful, loving, laughing. And everybody is carrying his own guitar — no need to carry any crosses. I want to change every cross into a guitar. Right?

    Okay, Maneesha?
    Yes, Beloved Master.

    OSHO
    Om Mani Padme Hum
    Ch #22: This is my secret: This silence

  270. meera says:

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

  271. Shanti says:

    Dear Meera… i´ m sure you get get some use of the old good chi-chi… As anthony said it will do a lot of good to you!
    Ok, group hug… and meera is sent to see Laxmi…

  272. Shanti says:

    Darling was that a chi-chi scream?

  273. shantam prem says:

    Darling that was a Chi-chi scream?

    Meera, please answer Shanti in a friendly way. She has asked you in such a loving way!

  274. shantam prem says:

    “The people who had gone through their fears were happy and alive and the people who had not risked and listened to their fear were in their misery…”

    Garimo, it was a very nice sharing from your side.

    And again it remindes me the utility of the Sahgha, the commune the meeting place of Old and new.

    We as human beings are always in the need of a trustworhty structure which provokes us for the higher and new challange.
    After Osho, it should have been the gathering of His people who go on creating this inspiring energy in a non formal way.
    As Pavitro wrote-
    And the ones who jump into the fire & who continue to jump into the fire will know it !

  275. prem bubbie says:

    http://www.illuminati-news.com is a web site that I just found, interesting site. There is article about His Dumbness the dalai Lama on that site. Just have to look for it. I’m going to dig even deeper on the Web to see what else I can find. I was surprised to hear positive feedback regarding my not-so schmaltz-like posting. I know there are many sannyasins who like the poseur. Way back in the 70′s Osho had some heavy criticism for the Dalai dude, then later in the 80′s he totally contradicted himself. Gotta find out for yourself what the truth is. The use of the word Occult I think has been misused. What I think is more accurate is the phrase: Ancient Mystical Techniques and Practices. Those techniques are useful for higher consciousness seekers, but for practical and day to day use- no way. It does kind of figure that His Numbness would be attracted to fascist dictators and monarchs and other types of control freaks. His title is equivalent to the Emperor of Japan, the god/king. Anyone who wants to share power would be a threat to him and his ideals. He has done a wonderful PR job to cloak his true intentions. As Bugs Bunny would say: What a Morooooooon!!!!!!

  276. Kranti says:

    Me Me too.. late hug..

    Shantam..

    Have you been in those encounter groups / Therapy sessions..?

  277. shantam prem says:

    Encounter groups/therapy sessions

    There were financial reasons, business sense and different psyhcological needs of east and west. Till his life time, in the ashram western to Indian ratio was around 90 to 10.
    and than you count gender wise it was even more imbalance, almost 85 Indian men and only 15 women.
    In such atmosphere how even uni sex showers could survive.

    India of today is different. Young people have deep pockets and urge to play with the fire has taken birth, so much so that in every sphere “Mr. and Ms. Brown” want to be in a competitive spirit with “Family White”.

    But Poona has lost its fiery edge. Instead of feeling the jungle of Cobras you see the snakes in the basket.

    That is why my instance is again and again on the revival of Poona as it was till 31st December 1999.
    The computer industry has survived the data clash of changing the century, but one of its kind mystery school where you were playing with fire every day has turned into a chain smokers paradise, fire in its perverse and cowardly form.

  278. shantam prem says:

    PS-first two sentences of the above post-
    Kranti, this is an interesting question from the prospective of our Indian background.
    The way India was till Osho´s life time, it was a valid ground not to allow Indians in such groups.

  279. meera says:

    shantam prem

    what is a chi-chi
    you pls figure out by yourself…

    and let shanti also find out….

    AHAHAJAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

  280. shantam prem says:

    I don`t know, whether it is true but one of my friend mentioned that there is again a price rise in the entry fee of resort.
    Western 700 Rupees, Indians 300 rupees per day.

    It means world leaders of G 20 nations have done a tremendous job to take the world economy out of recession.

    Before the air travel industry increase the ticket charges, resort has done this.
    This is called always one step ahead from the others*

  281. meera says:

    “The people who had gone through their fears were happy and alive
    and the people who had not risked and listened to their fear were in their misery…”

    love these words………

    what about you people .??!!
    .have you gone through your fears
    or are you still sitting
    comfortable at home in your familiar miseries?

  282. Kranti says:

    First

    ” price rise in the entry fee of resort.
    Western 700 Rupees, Indians 300 rupees per day ”

    If this is true it will be a real killer… So you need Rs.10000 for a month to visit . This is the monthly salary of majority of young Indians except people working in IT Industry

    ” The way India was till Osho´s life time, it was a valid ground not to allow Indians in such groups.”

    To me that is even more reason why Indians should have been allowed in such groups.. Indians need encounter / therapy than any other

  283. meera says:

    what about YOU ::::::@ ALL

    coming out

    under the ´open sky´

    and reveal
    how YOU live

    OSHO´S VISION
    THE SANGHA
    of the
    MASTER????!!!!

  284. shantam prem says:

    Meera,
    Follow your porposal. Tell us about yourself without censoring eros and Id.
    For sure, you have an interesting story like most of the sannyasins who went into the unchartered sea.

  285. meera says:

    KRANTI

    Indians don´t need to go to these foolish expensive groups at the resort
    these idiotic groups cost a fortune and is meant only for people
    who work as slaves in the west
    so they can get away for sometimes
    from this maddening society
    and they don´t know
    how to meditate peacefully in Nalapark
    or enjoy peace and quiet at the resort…
    they need groups
    because they
    are lonely isolated beings..

    have you ever been to the west?
    west is not like east
    here everyone is isolated .
    . the only gatherings are on footballgrounds
    and in bars and discos .
    . which suck your energy amnd money
    and makes you feel sick with alcohol

    India is an alive country
    where youth meets everywhere on the street ,
    in neighborhood etc…

    not here..
    people are closed and depressed
    or loud violent and drunk…

    India is far more civilised then the west

    infact India is 3000 years ahead of the barbarious west…

    India used to be a free country
    when the
    Jainas were still an alive tantric society…
    5000years ago or so…
    very loving very open very sexy..
    not vulgar like these christians suppressed countries perverted with pornography

    India was damaged first by arab countries
    who wanted India ..
    they were coming from the desert and very violent and barbarious
    and had women degraded to subhuman life

    these people wanted India
    which has the perfect climate
    and beautiful nature
    and all the fruits and vegeatbles
    like paradies…

    these were the first people to damage India

    the british christian commonwealth gave India its final..
    ensalved the locals and started to rule
    they are also womenoppressive

    so whole India has become a slum
    because of these invaders
    politicians and priests…

  286. meera says:

    shantam
    what to tell you..
    I spent 10 years in India..and Greece
    you know India .. nothing new for you…

    what I´m doing here….?! since 20 years I´m waiting for sannyasins who wanna start a commune in Germany…

    I have beautiful place in countryside
    but no people..

    these socalled sannysins are all bogus

    they continue living their christian conditioned lifestyles

    working as slaves for the governement..

    full of fear an misery……

  287. shantam prem says:

    Meera,
    As you have analysied west, why than 20 years to waste in Germany with the idea of commune, why not in India?

    I have never met a farmer in Germany, who wants to grow a Mango Garden?

    Your beautiful place in scenic German countryside; how you could purchase this as German land and construction work
    is one of the most expansive in the world.

  288. meera says:

    shantam
    you yourself live in Germany

    I never worked in my life
    I have no money
    and no husband..

    I have responsibility for my old mother who has nobody
    and I have a fatherless daughter of 17 going to college…

  289. meera says:

    I need 5 people
    who can pay rent of 350 euro monthly

    to start a small commune
    and work together
    to convert the big place we have got in Cologne
    into a creative arts center

    I have all concepts sponsors and financers

    but not even 5 people who can work it out toghether

    alone its impossible

    I want to have fair-traid import from India in this place as well

    and create an enterprise from here.. rich country..
    to support indian sannaysin villages with
    solarenergy and organic farming….

    http://www.mysticvillage.in

  290. meera says:

    350 euro each………rent

    Germany

    the place can serve as a center for sessions as well

    it is very comfortable
    with fireplace
    livingroom
    diningroom
    big meditationroom can be constructed under the loft..
    two cellarrooms with carpet and centralheating for guests.. big garden with old trees..
    beautiful countryside
    with forest fields and lively streams of running water….

  291. frank says:

    back to alan watts.
    i always struggled with what an “ego” actually might be.
    some kind of unpleasant substance that had to be crystalised,destroyed,dropped,killed,transcended,hammered,beaten into nothingness by “compassionate” gurus or therapists – like they are thrashing you for your own good….like “the devils”or something,and even “witnessed” at the same time–like going to watch your own crucifixion.
    .
    being a rather lazy “ego” and being worried about self-harming,i steered clear of the whole thing.
    i felt like a hindu at a bull fight.

    then i heard(on audio)alan watts said something like:

    “the ego is an image of yourself that doesn`t fit the facts,coupled with a chronic and futile muscular tension.
    an illusion married to a futility”

    simple.
    he had a knack for that.

  292. meera says:

    Tantra is the natural way, the loose and the natural is the goal. You need not fight with the current; simply move with it, float with it. The river is going to the sea, so why fight? Move with the river, become one with the river, surrender. “Surrender” is the keyword for tantra, “will” is the keyword for yoga. Yoga is the path of will, tantra is the path of surrender.

    That’s why tantra is the path of love — love is surrender. This is the first thing to understand, then Tilopa’s words will become very very crystal-clear. The different dimension of tantra has to be understood — The vertical dimension, the dimension of surrender, of not fighting, of being loose and natural, relaxed — what Chuang Tzu says, “Easy is right.” With yoga, difficult is right; with tantra, easy is right.

    Relax and be at ease, there is no hurry. The whole itself is taking you on its own accord, you need not make an individual striving. You are not asked to reach before your time, you will reach when the time is ripe — You simply wait. The whole is moving — why you are in a hurry? Why you want to reach before others?

    There is a beautiful story about Buddha:
    He reached the gate of heaven. Of course, the people there were waiting. They opened the door, they welcomed him. But he turned his back towards the door, looked at the samsara — the world — millions of souls on the same path, struggling, in misery, in anguish, striving to reach this gate of heaven and bliss. The door-keeper said, “You come in please! We have been waiting for you.”

    And Buddha said, “How i can come when others have not reached? It doesn’t seem to be the right time. How I can enter when the whole has not entered into it? I will have to wait. It is just like my hand has reached into the door, and my feet have not reached yet. I will have to wait. Just the hand cannot enter alone.”

    This is one of the most profound insights of tantra. Tantra says Nobody can, in fact, become enlightened alone. We are parts of each other, we are members of each other. We are a whole! One person may become the peak, may become a very great wave — but the great wave remains connected with the small waves all around. It is not alone, it remains one with the ocean, and all the waves there. How a wave can become enlightened alone?

    It is said in this beautiful story that Buddha is still waiting. He has to wait. Nobody is an island — we make a continent, we are together. I may have stepped a little further than you, but I cannot be separate.

    And now I know it deeply, now it is not a story for me — Iam waiting for you. Now it is not just a parable. Now I know that There is no individual enlightenment. Individuals can step a little ahead, that’s all — but they remain joined together with the whole.

    And if an Enlightened person is not aware that he is part of others, one with the others, then who will know this? We move as one being, and Tantra says, “So don’t be in a hurry, and don’t try, and don’t push others, and don’t try to be first in the queue — Be loose and natural. everything is going towards enlightenment, it is going to happen. You don’t create an anguish about it.” If you can understand this, already you are near it — one relaxes. Otherwise, religious people become very very tense. Even ordinary worldly people are not as tense as religious people become tense.

    Ordinary worldly people are for worldly goals. Of course they are tense, but not so much as religious people — because they are tense for the other world. And their world is very far away, invisible; and they are always in doubt whether it is there or not. And then a new misery arises: maybe they are losing this world and the other doesn’t exist. They are always in anguish, mentally very much disturbed. Don’t become that type of religious man.

    To me a religious man is loose and natural. He’s not worried about this world or the other world. He is not worried at all, he simply lives and enjoys. This moment is the only moment for him, the next moment will take care of itself. When the next moment comes, he will receive it also enjoying, blissful. A religious man is not goal-oriented. To be goal-oriented is to be worldly.

    Osho
    Tantra: The Supreme Understanding
    Ch #6: The Great Teaching

  293. shantam prem says:

    I never worked in my life
    I have no money…

    It means, Meera, you got this porperty from your ancestors, may be from your mother´s side.

    Your old mother, you and young daughter…how you sustain the daily life?

    Coming from a sound background, i have also never worked in India for money but was pouring my energy into the “luxury” issue of life. it creates a certain ego centric attitude towards 9 to 5 kind of humanity.
    But Being in Germany and living with humble resources and doing survival work for half day is quite an eye opener, only luxury and a motivation to be here is that being a man from third world i am sharing the growth of two children with the mothers of first world, and as a sannyasin i could avail the possibilty of multi cultural children and the challanges in this journey.

    If someone ask me today, what are the most beautiful parts in female anatomy, my answer will be The Womb!

  294. Anthony thompson says:

    Kranti. The encounter groups in the ´70s, ´80s were highly relational and people were naked in the room throughout the whole 7 days process. there is no way Indians were going to be allowed in those groups. Their sexual hang ups were too much, they were just interested in grabbing women.
    Indians are not allowed , even today, to psychodynamic groups like primal, and relational groups like tantra. The reason: The indian conditioning of worshiping parents prevents them to see the psychological damage they have as a result of their parents behaviour. therefore the healthy phase of validating your resentment towards the parents is too much for Indians. .Asian are not allowed to those grpoups neither, becasue of this.
    And relational groups, forget it. the very few times that it was tried was a disaster. the sexual conditioning is too much.
    There is vast secret ( not open for everyone but group leaders) guidance from osho about these issues. I saw the folder when i worked in the Mutiversity plaza.

    Meera. I would not go to a commune with you even for free, You are too bitter to be around.

  295. Kranti says:

    Anthony.. Thanks for that info.. But my point if Indians struggle in those aspects what kind of therapies / method will suit them / what will bring them out of those conditionings..?

    It sound to me that Indians denied methods which they need most.. I am not sure here.. Let me know what you think..

  296. shantam prem says:

    Anthony,
    when you explain things about India, many times i see a white chauvanestic´s intellectual arrogance behind and a superficial attitude.
    Osho has mentioned very clearly, where east is lacking something and where west is lacking something.
    It is a strange coincidence of life that east has understood their leakages but west still is lacking the quality of self analysis.

    And as a psycho analysist, you must have seen, that first time Meera was sharing her life story, and you come with an unnecssary and sarcastic comment.

  297. Kranti says:

    Anthony.. One more question

    And Indians only discovered methods like Tantra to go beyond sexual condiionings.. If that is true what and when things went wrong?

  298. meera says:

    you are sound and save in a ´womb´in germany with a german mother who has 2 kids…shantam.. good choice

    very safe…

    my mothers house is in the same village
    like the property I´m talking about..

    still I receive money from governement…
    in the same time trying to build up my enterprise…
    and you know how it is
    with german beerdrinkers

    they don´t get anything in their stoneheads..

    all sannyasins sitting somewhere save in their small livingrooms.. afraid to come out… HAHAHAHAHAH

    THE REBELIOUS SPIRIT

  299. meera says:

    as I told kranti

    first came the moslems and then the british imperialism

    that was what went wrong….

  300. meera says:

    Anthony

    I would never invite you near me…

    I don´t want judgmental people

    who cannot even surrender to
    OUR MASTER
    thats why you never became a sannyasin

    you are stuck in your head,….and dick.. it seems LOL

    childish….

  301. meera says:

    Kranti
    you don´t need all these stupid childish groups done by western arrogant neurotics….
    and they are extremly expensive..#
    they pay only the
    cunning priesthood( therapists)
    and politicians ( management)

    thats why I´m in love with rajneesh

    everybody can join… and CELEBRATE TOGHETHER
    that is the best therapy
    instead of doing psychotherapy

    let these idiots go to groups….

    rather i suggest
    to join rajneesh
    who always has a very nice circle of western and indian friends.. men and women
    who come to meet and celebrate

    instead of boozing

    CELEBRATION IS MY WHOLE MESSAGE .. OSHO

  302. frank says:

    tony.
    to be frank.
    you sound a lot like like a racist,who is using the
    “science” of psychotherapy to back up his prejudices.

    you might think that being called thompson allows you access the some kind of british supremacy.
    but,remember,you are just a jumped-up johnny-foreigner greasy dago with an out of control hot dog as far as englishmen like me are concerned.
    way down the leagues of supremacy,i can assure you,old boy.

  303. frank says:

    chilean psychotherapist?
    just below drunken ricksha puller,i would say.

  304. frank says:

    and nothing like as useful.

  305. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    Meera why dont you start the commune Sw .Rajneesh , and lam not being sarcastic but practical, if you havent given him an offer , give it Dearie

  306. Kranti says:

    Meera.. It is not that easy.. dancing alone will not help… the conditionings are far deep rooted than that..

    I am alright with Rajneesh makin people dance..It is not bad at all

    But i dont like the way he is topping people from going to therapies completely..By that logic he should also stop people from going to Osho No-mind and Mystic rose therapies..

    His very book is named after a Osho therapy..

  307. Kranti says:

    Correction ” the way he is stopping people “

  308. Anthony thompson says:

    Frank You say: “but,remember,you are just a jumped-up johnny-foreigner greasy dago with an out of control hot dog as far as englishmen like me are concerned.
    way down the leagues of supremacy,i can assure you,old boy.”

    I could not agree more… I would think the same about me if I were you.

    Regarding groups… hey, i did not make that guideline. It was YOUR master who did not want Indians in groups… not me.
    In public Osho said they did not need groups. When when i saw the folder with His specific instructions , then i knew what he really thought.
    As far as I am concerned… I do not care… it is not my ashram or my groups… even it is not my world.I just go there as a client.
    So, get angry at Osho, not me. I am just saying what I saw, read, and was told by them. If you do not believe me ask Karuna, or Satya Vedant who were in charge of the groups back then

  309. meera says:

    you old chilene still being a client at the resort? hahahahaha

    you will never grow up….

    kranti ..nobody is stopping anyone to do foolish groups

    if that is what you want .. go ahead.. and ask yourself if this is bringing you fulfillment hahahahahha

    what do you think pavitro .. I´m not in contact with rajneesh?

    Rajneesh dosen´t like germany and germans

    and I
    cannot leave germany
    because of familyresponsibilities….

  310. shantam prem says:

    I never worked in my life
    I have no money…

    and I
    cannot leave germany
    because of familyresponsibilities….

    Getting money from govt. enjoying first class health system being run by the beer drinker, meat eater people and never feeling thankful to the roots*

    Those who think Mr. Browns from India are better, are living in a fool`s paradise. Show them pussy and purse…and in return get Mantras…. Om Shanti Om Om Shanti Om…

  311. Kranti says:

    “and ask yourself if this is bringing you fulfillment hahahahahha ”

    I didnt say doing groups will bring you fulfillment.. It is cleaning work and Indians need them as any other..Even more than others.. They are like a ticking time bomb.. with so much suppressed inside.. You must see the way they go off the handle everywhere ..

  312. Kranti says:

    I dont know what happened when Osho was there.. I think in todays world denying someone a therapy based on race is arrogance..

  313. Anthony thompson says:

    I do not pretend to know for sure. But the access to therapy was not based on race, but conditioning. I will tell you Kranti, what i read that Osho said.

    Japanese were not allowed into encounter because the whole concept of ” acting out” your aggression was foreign to them… therefore they broke a bone or two in the group.

    People from muslim countries had to do one month of dynamic before any access to relational groups.

    Nowadays Indians can do all the meditative therapies, but unless they have been raised in england or abroad, and then Neelam had to decide… because those cases were sent to her, no relational groups for Indians.

    I know of a Indian girl who wanted to do Primal and when it was explained in detail that she will have to “act out” her anger against her father, she was shocked… and decided not to do that.

    During the soviet time Russians were not allowed into psycho dynamic groups either.

    Even there were recommendations related to Chilean conditioning from Osho. He said “we suffered from inferiority complex and felt resentful towards Argentinians, and also superior to Bolivians and Peruvians” I do not know where he got that, but he was right.

    I do not know enough about cultural conditioning and therapy to make my mind about that.
    But to some extent it seems to make sense to me. although I agree that times have changed.

  314. shantam prem says:

    Just listening Osho in Hindi.
    He explains the difference between Moorh, Pandit and Jagrook.

    moorh is an Idiot who knows nothing.
    Pandit is a scholar who knows more than it is needed.
    Jagrook is a simple man in the middle, neither this nor that.

    The observers of Osho movement were watching curiosly, who of the above three will inherit His kingdom.

    Interestingly enough the above two kind of persons are wearing the tailor made clothes of the third….The wheel of truth have again gone stuck in the mud of disciples bürocracy.

    “I dont know what happened when Osho was there?”

    it was a life on move with all the shades including truth and lies, facts and fcitions..

    Now it is all clean and vacumm packed like pre cut meat but no live Stock.

  315. Kranti says:

    Thanks a lot Anthony..for putting things in right perspective

    Yes Times have chnaged..

    They do have introductory advice session for all Indians telling them to keep away from women / dont stare type of stuff.. To certain extent i can understand that..

    But deciding a therapy based on general behavioural / conditioning may not be very intelligent way of approaching the same…It will be generalization and denying someone a genuine therapy requirement… and it looks very high handed to me. May be they can group people from similar background..

  316. Kranti says:

    And i was surprised by Osho’s ‘ Chilean conditioning’ knowledge.. Although we know what he is capable of the depth of his knowledge never seizes to amaze me

  317. shantam prem says:

    Anthony,
    What Osho was saying about the groups during His time, was totally relevant.
    As you say-although I agree that times have changed.

    Is the Osho movement stearing according to the changed times?

    It is more than, half full or half empty glass, question.

  318. Anthony thompson says:

    I remember in the last years there were family constelation specifically and only for Taiwanese… who knows Kranti… get a bunch of “nationals” and go talk to garimo about having a group for you guys.
    although I would not bet for tantra, unless you can convince 10 Indians women to go do a group with ten Indian men where they will be required to take their clothes off and sit on the men´s lap and breath through their Yoni… good luck!!

  319. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    Ya everyone is not a tailor , whats the harm if there are persons who can afford to buy the clothes from the tailor , after all the tailor wants to sell his clothes ,why would anyone complain unless one is a competetor – tailor without buyers

  320. Kranti says:

    ” unless you can convince 10 Indians women… ”

    Thats some idea.. I will break my bones even before i attempt to convince..

  321. Kranti says:

    I come from a remote place of south India which is known for extreme violence..( it has changed a lot though , i come from a community which is know for its softness not violence..)

    There bones are broken even if someone stares at a women for 3 second more than normal..

    Just wondering how far removed Osho’s place is from such a place..

  322. frank says:

    re…osho`s instructions about therapy.
    that was a stroke of luck that the ones who were ok with “acting out” were the ones with the most money to pay for the groups!

    what i wondered about catharthis is that when you throw out “vomit” the “negative stuff”,where does it go?
    does it just disappear,or what?
    is it just like throwing out your garbage into the street?
    who picks it up?
    or does some other guy have to deal with it somewhere?
    is this catharthis psychically ecological or are we as liberated westerners,just turning the world into a psychic landfill?
    maybe we need to try recycling……

  323. frank says:

    pavitro,
    you are right.
    and if people want to buy some new clothes for an emperor.
    no problem,again.

  324. shantam prem says:

    Good Point Anthony-
    “unless you can convince 10 Indians women to go do a group with ten Indian men where they will be required to take their clothes off and sit on the men´s lap and breath through their Yoni… ”

    One can imagine hundred thousands Mercedes or BMW´s on Indian roads but 10 women 10 men from the population of 1.25 billion people doing Tantra…. almost Impossible.

    One and only true possibility is revival of the Osho Ashram out of the ashes of “J&A Osho Resorts Pvt. Ltd.”

    Osho Ashram has the brand value and the prestige in this special branch and India is ready with their money and tolerance to accept Osho´s sex to super consciousness vision.
    But Sannyasins have to be the trend setters. Nobody plucks the fruits from a “Lunjh-Punjh” looking tree.

  325. Anthony thompson says:

    still… Shantam, even in Osho´s ashram that was Inconceivable. Unless the ones sitting on the lap were Western women… and even like that quite difficult.

    regarding, your question Frank… where does it go? How am i supposed to know that? first i do not dp cathartic therapy, second, why do you think it goes anywhere?
    where do your tears go, frank? your laughter? your frustration. they are simply emotional states… they do not go anywhere… they are not trains.

  326. garimo says:

    >but one of its kind mystery school where you were playing with fire >every day has turned into a chain smokers paradise, fire in its >perverse and cowardly form.

    Yes shantam prem,
    This does sound to be the case. But how could it be different? With the aging the fire doesn’t burn to so any more. Now it’s just warm and comfortable for the less driven and less inspired management.
    But to again bring in someone who’s on fire… like most were when Osho was there… Who would provide the guidance and the fuel?
    I just see no way to go back to 1999.

    It’s just us. This is it.
    Either we’re on our own, matured and self reliant tending our own flame with the tools we have, able to share moments with those able to share moments. Or, we need to seek out what is missing. If it’s a living teacher and master that is needed to add fuel to our fire, then it seems to me the struggle is getting up the courage to seek where it can be found.

    There’s just no way to go back to 1999.

    I’m thinking the resort is now just another option in a world full of options. What’s required is self examination and looking for what is missing,

    Kranti, if what is missing and longing for is experience discovering human sexuality then a option is the HAI community. The Human Awareness Institute. Stan Dale who created the program was a man of love. Anne Watts (alan’s daughter) leads some of the programs. It’s a educational, experiential, motivational, and inspirational program.

    The world if full of options.
    Even one can join Meera’s community and build her a commune. There are invitations available now.

    I’m just thinking it’s a disservice for “old” sannyasins lamenting with the new sannyasins “If only you could have it like the old Osho days”… I’m thinking as the “more matured” our obligation is to remain educated as to what the present options are and share those paths to those in need. (and that’s not done screaming from a soap box)

    Sarlo has been working many years on his navigational guide to all things gurudom. It’s informative. http://www.globalserve.net/~Sarlo/Ratings.htm

    So shantam prem, even though I am not sharing agreement with your idea of a future resort going back to the past commune as a good use of my energy… I don’t wish to take that wish or anything away from you, I’m just wanting to add my own notions to the mix… so please understand – all is well.

    -garimo

  327. garimo says:

    >“unless you can convince 10 Indians women to go do a group with >ten Indian men where they will be required to take their clothes off >and sit on the men´s lap and breath through their Yoni… ”

    To do a HAI group… If you’re a guy, you only need to convince one woman to join with you to keep a balance in gender, and there are no race restrictions.

  328. garimo says:

    >>“The people who had gone through their fears were happy and alive and the people who had not risked and listened to their fear >>were in their misery…”

    >love these words………

    >what about you people .??!!
    >.have you gone through your fears
    >or are you still sitting
    >comfortable at home in your familiar miseries?

    Yuck, it feels kind of ugly seeing something I’ve written used by Meera.

  329. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    Frank , ya you right even an emperor ,anyway why should there be any distinction , affordability is the same for all guys , as this affordability does not depend on money , it is the gas one has for one to jump to into the fire

  330. shantam prem says:

    Garimo,
    One cannot go back, even one wishes. This i think, most of us are aware of.
    So it is not a question of turning the clock back to 1999.
    But like the seasons, organisations have also their springs and autumns.
    The management has at least left this much space open that everybody who is in charge can put his kind of interpretation.

    Even if the Jayesh Amrito team white wash their successor as per their vision and understanding, it is not going to be the same.
    SO when the change comes, it comes in an unprecedented way…

    The present chapter in the history of Osho movement has already taken many years… change we can believe in, is the next chapter.
    Let us see whether dynasty rule continues or common sense prevails and involvement of the seekers becomes integral again.

  331. meera says:

    ´ Getting money from govt. enjoying first class health system being run by the beer drinker, meat eater people and never feeling thankful to the roots*

    Those who think Mr. Browns from India are better, are living in a fool`s paradise. Show them pussy and purse…and in return get Mantras…. Om Shanti Om Om Shanti Om…´

    shantam prem
    and shanti om…
    you are yourself a mr brown from India….
    who got pussys and purse in return for mantrachanting…

    and who said that I´m not gratful to my fellowmen
    who have created an Alice in Wonderland syndrom….??!!

  332. meera says:

    ´I didnt say doing groups will bring you fulfillment.. It is cleaning work and Indians need them as any other..Even more than others.. They are like a ticking time bomb.. with so much suppressed inside.. You must see the way they go off the handle everywhere ..´

    kranti
    the only thing you need is a ´katharsis´
    do ´dynamic meditation´
    and you will seeeeeeeeeeee

    nothing else is needed…
    no expensive groups where you walk along
    with your teddybear…

  333. meera says:

    ´Yuck, it feels kind of ugly seeing something I’ve written used by Meera.´

    you know garimo ..you are a person full of SHIT
    thats ugly indeed

  334. Anthony thompson says:

    NOW I UNDERSTAND YOU MEERA…
    this is your catharsis treatment…. now I get it…

  335. shantam prem says:

    Without doubt Meera is a gutsy Ma.
    Fighting with courage and taking stand for what she believs in.
    I am sure, soon we will read more colorful four letter words.
    To create and select abusive langauge is also an art, and Meera has quite an efficiency in this branch.

  336. garimo says:

    >you know garimo ..you are a person full of SHIT
    thats ugly indeed

    That’s not all that I am!

  337. meera says:

    good anthony… before death knocks on your door
    you should GET IT

    garimo gets what he gives..
    don´t you get it? shantam
    and if not
    then <i have wasted my time here long enough …

  338. shantam prem says:

    Meera dear,
    Enlightenment or Endarkenment….the joy is in treating people as the equals yet unique in their own ways.

    People with different opinions does not become enemies or inferior beings, on the contrary they make the puzzle of life complete.

    I hope you will mend your militant approach and fixed opinions.

  339. garimo says:

    >>>garimo gets what he gives..
    don´t you get it? shantam
    and if not
    then <i have wasted my time here long enough …

    garimo gave a report about what he felt being used by meera… only to receive abuse.

    It’s also his impression meera has wasted more than just her time.

  340. shantam prem says:

    “Every truth, sooner or later, will be organized. And the moment it is organized, it dies.”

    Oh No…….

    What was the need to organize so early. Just twenty years.

    At least this crucifiction work we should have left for the generations to come.

  341. While some friends in Pune are busy Organising Truth or whatever , a press photographer in Pune has thought of inviting Swami Chaitanya Keerti to facilitate Laughter Meditation and some other Osho meditations on 31st December evening 8-12pm. There’s so much seriousness in our discussions and laughter seems to be missing. So it may happen that the new year starts with hundreds of Osho lovers laughing together in Pune.
    Happy New Year–Happy Now Here!

  342. shantam prem says:

    May be Swami Keerti can shed the light when new year was used to be celebrated with the laughter meditation in Buddha Hall.
    I think it was one of the new “add ons” after His departure.

    May be few people felt later on that, why to share laughter as free. This should also be institutionalized.

  343. Kranti says:

    garimo

    You say ‘ It’s just us. This is it.
    Either we’re on our own, matured and self reliant tending our own flame with the tools we have, able to share moments with those able to share moments. Or, we need to seek out what is missing. If it’s a living teacher and master that is needed to add fuel to our fire, then it seems to me the struggle is getting up the courage to seek where it can be found.”

    It is great point

    somehow we are not able to accept that the master is no longer there.. While people like Amrito and Sw keerthi were blessed and they had grown when Osho was in the body and thus continue to walk their walk it may not be the case with all others.. So anyone who still needs a living master should have the courage to look elsewhere..

    Osho always says ‘ the master is always there available ‘ .. So it is a question of courage to move on.. IF you at a stage where you need a living master..IF you can grow with the help of meditations given by Osho then there is no problem

  344. Kranti says:

    Sw Keerthi.. Tht is wonderful news.. YES we all in this forum can help ourselves some laughter..

    Happy Now Here!

    That is a great statement.. Perhaps they should re name the celebrations at Pune also as Happy Now Here!

  345. Kranti says:

    Garimo

    Pardon me for this ‘ somehow we are not able to accept that the master is no longer there ”

    I am not actually speaking for others.. Again limitation in expressing words..

  346. Kranti says:

    Meera

    ” kranti
    the only thing you need is a ´katharsis´
    do ´dynamic meditation´
    and you will seeeeeeeeeeee ‘

    Very true.. Dynamic itself is very big help..and therapies are cotsly and not everyone can afford..

    But there are people out there who need personal help / guidance when they are thrown into inner space.. That is why they even have very specific ‘ assistance ‘ program for people who are doing 21 days dynamic ..

  347. Kranti says:

    Garimo

    Thanks for Human Awareness Institute info. Personally I didnt think about attending something like that as a need. I may have to explore myself from that angle..

    Not sure wherther anything of that quality is available in India.. It doesn’t seem so.. That itself is an indication where we indians are as a society when it comes to sexual conditionings…Long long way to go..

    It seems being in India and looking to get out of deep rooted condiotionings especially sexual is itself a ‘ abnormality ‘ and help is not available..

    I also think this failure to open up has allowed people set up tantric centers / open gurudoms and exploit people majorly

  348. meera says:

    kranti

    you just give everything in dynamic meditation…
    thats all
    nothing else is needed

    I was thinking sw chaitanya keerti is also banned from the resort?!

  349. meera says:

    “Crawling in the Dark”
    by Hoobastank

    Watch here:

    The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

    I will dedicate
    And sacrifice my everything for just a second’s worth
    Of how my story’s ending
    I wish I could know if the directions that I take
    And all the choices that I make won’t end up all for nothing

    Show me what it’s for
    Make me understand it
    I’ve been crawling in the dark looking for the answer
    Is there something more than what I’ve been handed?
    I’ve been crawling in the dark looking for the answer

    Help me carry on
    And show me it’s okay to use my heart and not my eyes
    To navigate the darkness
    Will the ending be ever coming suddenly?
    Will I ever get to see the ending to my story

    Show me what it’s for
    Make me understand it
    I’ve been crawling in the dark looking for the answer
    Is there something more than what I’ve been handed?
    I’ve been crawling in the dark looking for the answer

    So when and how will I know?

    How much further do I have to go? (Have to go)
    And how much longer ’til I finally know? (Finally know)
    Cuz I’m looking and I just can’t see what’s in front of me
    In front of me

    Show me what it’s for
    Make me understand it
    I’ve been crawling in the dark looking for the answer
    Is there something more than what I’ve been handed?
    I’ve been crawling in the dark looking for the answer
    __._,_.___

  350. meera says:

    sho,
    Why do people criticize you as a self-styled and self-appointed god?

    Chaitanya Keerti,
    There are many things to be understood. IT IS ONE OF THE ANCIENT-MOST REACTIONS OF THE PEOPLE, it is not anything new. It happened with Krishna, with Moses, with Christ, with Mahavira, with Buddha, with Mohammed, with Al-Hillaj Mansur. As far back as one can see, it has been happening all along, .

    THE PEOPLE LIVE IN MISERY, and they cannot accept anybody who is not miserable just like themselves. To accept that somebody has become blissful is humiliating to them, it wounds their ego. They would NOT like a Jesus, a Buddha, a Krishna, to be at all — because the height of the Everest suddenly makes them aware of where they are.

    It is said that THE CAMELS DON’T WANT TO GO NEAR MOUNTAINS, they are very much against mountains. Perhaps that’s why they live in the deserts where THEY are the mountains.

    IT IS EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO LIVE IN MISERY knowing that this is how life is — because everybody else is also miserable just like them. But to see somebody flowering, and they are only thorns; to see somebody fragrant, and they are only stinking; to see somebody enlightened, and they are nothing but a dark night of the soul… makes them feel really miserable. It multiplies their misery. THE ONLY WAY IS TO DENY, TO REJECT, to say that something like Christ-consciousness, Buddhahood, is not possible at all.

    So it is not only with me that they are reacting that way. That is their old tradition, always they have done the same thing. THEY LIVE IN MISERY, AND MISERY IS ALWAYS NEGATIVE. Remember it as one of the most fundamental laws of life.

    Misery is an indication of a negative mind, NEGATIVITY CREATES MISERY. You can see the misery, you cannot see their negativity. Misery is visible, it is the circumference; but the center is always NO, negativity. BLISS HAPPENS WITH YES: the center is YES, then on the circumference there is bliss. Bliss is visible, but the YES is invisible….

    THE ‘NO’ IS VERY DEEP IN PEOPLE’S HEART, a vast NO — NO to everything that surpasses them, that is transcendental to their consciousness; NO to everything that they have not been able to achieve; NO to all the stars, NO to the sky; NO to all possibilities, potentials; NO to every mirror — because every mirror makes them feel very sad, they look so ugly….

    WHEN YOU HAVE AN UGLY FACE, it is better to avoid the mirrors. Without the mirrors, you can go on believing how beautiful you are. Without the mirrors there is no trouble, the mirror immediately creates the trouble. Suddenly you can see that this is how you look. And naturally the first reaction is to destroy the mirror. That is easier than transforming your face; that’s a hard task, arduous, uphill.

    People crucified Jesus; that is destroying a mirror. They poisoned Socrates; that is destroying a mirror. They murdered Al-Hillaj; that is destroying a mirror. ONCE THE MIRROR IS DESTROYED, they can again relapse back into that dream that they are beautiful — there is nothing to disturb their idea.

    OSHO
    Zen: Zest, Zip, Zap and Zing
    Ch #6: Bhagwan: Perfectly at ease, totally at home
    am in Buddha Hall
    [part 1 of 6]

  351. frank says:

    institutionalised laughter meditations?

    that will kill sense of humour completely.

    mark my words.

  352. meera says:

    Now, these people… Chaitanya Keerti, you ask: “Why do people criticize you as a self-styled and self-appointed god?”

    NOBODY ELSE CAN BE A WITNESS TO MY INNER BLISS. If I have a headache, only I know about it — nobody else can know it. When the headache disappears, I have to declare that it has disappeared — nobody else can declare it. Do you think a committee is needed to decide whether I am having a headache or not? Do you think that voting is needed — that the country has to vote whether I am having a headache or not? ONLY I CAN DECLARE WHETHER I HAVE COME HOME OR NOT — no committee can do it, no voting can decide. It is an absolutely individual affair, it is nobody else’s business at all. If I do not have a headache, should not I declare that I don’t need any aspirins anymore?

    THAT’S ALL THAT I HAVE DONE BY DECLARING THAT I AM A BHAGWAN: that all the headaches have disappeared; that there is no anxiety in me, no anguish, no desire, no longing for anything; THAT I AM PERFECTLY AT EASE, relaxed with existence, totally at home.

    AND THESE PEOPLE GO ON CRITICIZING that I am a self-styled Bhagwan… But so was Krishna! Hindus don’t now criticize Krishna. Who appointed Krishna? He himself declared!

    THE UPANISHADIC SEERS DECLARED THEMSELVES. Do you think there was a committee to appoint that: ‘Yes, this man can declare, “Aham brahmasmi”, that “I am the ultimate truth”‘?

    WHO APPOINTED JESUS CHRIST? Do you think that a committee of the great rabbis of Jerusalem decided, voted in favor that Jesus was the only-begotten son of God, that he is Christ? They were against his declaration. They thought he is a charlatan, that he is a deceiver — and they punished him for that.

    WHO DECLARED BUDDHA TO BE A GOD? And it is such simple arithmetic! Do you think ignorant people can declare Gautam Siddhartha a Buddha? Do you think blind people can decide about the man, whether he has eyes or not? How the blind can decide? They don’t have eyes themselves, so how they can see whether anybody else has got the eyes or not?

    It has always been a self-styled phenomenon. ONE HAS TO DECLARE ONESELF, NOBODY ELSE CAN DO IT. It cannot be done on my behalf by anybody else. So I say it again, that I am Bhagwan. But ‘Bhagwan’ does not mean God — or, if you love the word ‘god’, then ‘Bhagwan’ simply means godliness.

    Obviously, when you have become absolutely blissful, that blissfulness is divine, it is godly. THERE IS NOTHING MORE GODLY THAN BLISSFULNESS. Because out of that blissfulness many flowers blossom: love, freedom, deathlessness. It becomes the source of all the values, of all that is good. It is the summum bonum, the ultimate good.

    OSHO
    Zen: Zest, Zip, Zap and Zing
    Ch #6: Bhagwan: Perfectly at ease, totally at home
    am in Buddha Hall

  353. meera says:

    Chaitanya Keerti, the second thing to remember is that ‘BHAGWAN’ DOES NOT MEAN GOD AT ALL. That’s a strange misunderstanding.

    It is understandable if people from the West take them to be synonymous, but even Indian fools do the same. IT SEEMS FOOLS HAVE THE SAME QUALITY ALL OVER THE WORLD! The wise men may differ, but the fools are absolutely agreed with each other.

    ‘Bhagwan’ does not mean God, ‘BHAGWAN’ SIMPLY MEANS THE BLESSED ONE. Hence we have called Buddha, ‘Bhagwan’, although he does not believe in any God. If ‘Bhagwan’ means God, then Buddha cannot be called ‘Bhagwan’. It is so clear! He does not believe in the existence of God — still we have called him ‘Bhagwan’. In front of him, for forty-two years continuously, people called him ‘Bhagwan’. He never objected — for the simple reason that the word ‘Bhagwan’ is not synonymous with the word ‘God’.

    We have called Mahavira and all the twenty-four teerthankaras of the Jainas, ‘Bhagwan’. And Jainas are atheists: they don’t believe in God, they don’t believe in any creator. WHY WE HAVE CALLED THE TEERTHANKARAS, ‘BHAGWAN’? — for the simple reason that they have attained to the ultimate bliss, they are the Blessed One.

    ‘GOD’ MEANS CREATOR — one who has made the world. Certainly I am not God. I don’t take any responsibility for making this world — not me!…

    You can exclude me out! I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE AT ALL FOR CREATING THIS WORLD, and I don’t think there is anybody who will take the responsibility. I am as much an atheist as Mahavira, as Buddha, as Lao Tzu. I DON’T BELIEVE IN ANY GOD WHO HAS CREATED THE WORLD. The world is a self-creative process — no creator is needed. THE WORLD IS CREATIVITY. There is no division between the creator and the created, there is no need at all for a God.

    But ‘Bhagwan’ is a totally different dimension, it has nothing to do with creating the world. ‘Bhagwan’ means your ultimate state of bliss.

    OSHO
    Zen: Zest, Zip, Zap and Zing
    Ch #6: Bhagwan: Perfectly at ease, totally at home
    am in Buddha Hall

  354. frank says:

    keerti.
    “you say there is so much seriousness in our discussions,laughter seems to be missing”

    speak for yourself.
    reading what you write,you sound like a deadly serious chap to me.
    much more interested in your,from what i can make out,quite political “work” than in having a laugh.

    if you want to laugh,you dont have to organise a meditation for it.
    it can be easily arranged.
    what do you like?
    i can see you as a benny hill fan….
    or mr bean….
    just whatever tickles your fancy…..

  355. frank says:

    that should be: you say :”there is ..etc,,

  356. Kranti says:

    ” institutionalised laughter meditations ‘

    In a way that is right Frank.. It does look artificial & forced to startwith..I had been in laughter meditation only one time before..But sometimes the effort to laugh together may break some tight patterns / seriouness and result in genuine laughter.. Even in Dynamic or Mystic rose the initial effort to break out is always forced one ..isnt it? Later it may actually result in you letting go..

  357. frank says:

    re happy new year.

    here`s a catchphrase for you

    happy new year.
    if you`re not happy now here.
    you`re not happy nowhere

  358. Kranti says:

    Just came across this in a blogger template

    ‘ Nice to be Here ‘

  359. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    on the dot Frank

  360. frank says:

    kranti,
    at my age,it`s nice to be anywhere!

  361. Kranti says:

    If it is ‘ it`s nice to be anywhere’ you have arrived..Havent you?

  362. Shanti says:

    Sorry. to change the subject. But everywhere I go in the net i get this wierd stuff about sw. rajneesh. this is the late stuff i found in http://oshoteachings.blogspot.com/2009/09/very-rare-photo-of-swami-rajneesh.html
    “Lately some pictures of Swami Rajneesh have been showing huge bright light balls around him. This is one such rare photo of Swami Rajneesh. The photo shows a big bright sphere of light around him.

    Such large and bright sphere have been seen around enlightened masters like Buddha, Mahavir, Guru Nanak Dev and are found in all paintings depicting enlightened masters.

    Note : Swami Rajneesh is an Enlightened Osho Sannyasin and He has shared his journey from a seeker to Buddhahood in his book “Tears of the Mystic Rose”. Official website of Swami Rajneesh is OshoRajneesh.net”

    We have to give credit to the bozzo for the self advertising

  363. Shanti says:

    …By the way. Have you guys noticed that Anurag, amitabh, prem abhay and harri-om … they all disappeared at the same time anurag went to Brazil… and they are all rajneesh supporters…
    strange…

  364. meera says:

    very sweet picture.. thanks shanti

  365. Kranti says:

    “Anurag, amitabh, prem abhay and harri-om ”

    if they are all one and the same it is easy to disappear like that.. isnt it?

    Or may be it is the name ‘ Meera ‘ which is used to post now ..

    What do you think Meera?

  366. meera says:

    all ver Y strange and MYSTERIOUS

    thats why::::::::::::::: MYSTIC ROSE:::::

  367. Kranti says:

    Meera.. I just cant belive you waiting for 20 years with big space to create a community.. 20 years seems to be too long a time .. You could have got hold of few people atleast and ran a meditation center of sorts..

  368. meera says:

    believe me Kranti
    german sannyasins are stone heads

  369. Shanti says:

    Perhaps they just do not want to live with you…

  370. Kranti says:

    Osho used to comment about germans.. But i never knew they take 20 years to come together

    Believe me if you had owned a place like that in India by now 5 other people would have created legal documents showing their title to that space..

    One of the tragedies / criminalization in India is what can happen to you when you buy a real estate property / land..

  371. meera says:

    you know kranti

    the place is a little bit outside of the next bigger city
    where all the osho white sheep
    are cramping in the osho-restaurant..
    they are too lazy to go anywhere anymore
    they enjoy the coziness of the crowd..
    they are not interested in meditation
    only in money…
    the leadership is homosexual ..
    most of the sannyasinmen are homosexuals…
    the women are working inside
    they don´t get any of these men .. still..
    they seem to be happy with this setup..
    they are looking for boyfriends outside of osho´s place

    the don´t have the rebelious spirit of Osho
    they live and work like an organised christian religion
    only the name has changed and the rituals..

    there is no transformation happening
    and nobody wants it
    as long as they sit fatted in an industrial country
    sucking the energy from thirld-world-countries

    also it seems that nobody believes
    there is a future anymore
    big cities here have all become like american ghettos

    mostly people are paralized with fear…
    the 2nd worldwar under Adolf Hitler
    has become their boons a marrow..

    they only look for enjoyment
    a fast life
    good food
    what they call good ….
    swineflu…

    and alcohol…
    most of them are addicts without knowing

    german heads are very hard…

  372. meera says:

    I´m waiting for the ´right´people
    not for anybody

    for example Rajneesh is a good friend of mine..
    still… he dosen´t like Germany

    they are looking for place in Mother >India

  373. meera says:

    Cologne has the the bones in their DOM (huge curch)
    of the highest saints of christianity
    the 3 kings…
    they were given to them by the church of Milano Italy
    to create a good business connection
    they were both very rich cities

    the vatican the bishops and archebishops had dominated humanity…
    they were all homosexuals abusing small boys…

    so one should not be suprised that these socalled osholeaders
    are acting like bishops
    and all the stupid women going to church
    ( oshocenter)
    listenting to these idiots….

  374. Kranti says:

    I am not sure about India also Meera .. India is moving towards economic affluence and all the young population are interested in making the most of it.. Only time can tell

  375. Shanti says:

    Meera… with that attitude no wonder no one wants to live wit you. You know what. get your ass off your property and go volunteer at the osho center… you will be much happy there.
    ..Even of the leadership is homosexual…

  376. Kranti says:

    Meera .. Who has interest in moving to ‘ Nothingness ‘? You can attain to nothingness in old age.. It can wait ….. meanwhile drinking and partying cant wait..

  377. meera says:

    shanti
    I don´t belong to these idiotic women
    who cannot be alone
    and even accept the company of homosexuals
    who are really perverted in their attitude towards women

    I know that you are person who compromises
    with the stupid masses

    I AM NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

  378. Shanti says:

    Ok.so you are angry at these “homosexuals” beacuse they do not want to get laid with you?
    With the attitude you have probably you would have trouble convincing a straight guy!

    lady… you are destroying yourself. Go out… better gay than dead… and you a beginning to stink

  379. meera says:

    get laid with a homosexual?

    AAAHHHHHHHHHHHH

    no shanti this I leave to you…

    are you convincing people ? HAHAHAHAHAHAH

    you poor soul….

    are you destroying yourself?!

    better gay then dead… you are stinking….

  380. shantam prem says:

    Shanti beloved,
    Thanks for showing the photo of this enlightend man with hollow around him.
    Unfortunately man is not woman otherwise i would have thought about dating.

    Heart oriented woman, intelligent woman are in abundance so my target has gone to screw some satsang giver woman.
    It will fullfill my “ego” and will give the awakened soul also some grounding!
    But what a pity, most of the woman in the spiritual business because of too much bio bread look like ice cream shop in winter!
    How holy men look like….. May be Meera knows better. She seems to be fan of such people.

  381. shantam prem says:

    As far as facts are concerned Osho is one of the most photographed (self appointed) Master of our time.

    Most of us have not seen a single photo of Him with such sunny aura.

    So it seems like disciple has covered the miles which Master could not do.

    I have always maintained that it is a very personal business to get adult, all the living creatures wait for this spring to come.
    My criticism is only for those dogies, who think they have become Mr. Lion.
    For sure, Mr. And Mrs. Dog can enjoy this great feeling, they can pamper each other with sweet compliments, My lion… My Tigress , but when they go this far to believe it is a news worth breaking, few will definately say, STOP

  382. meera says:

    tstststssss

    mr shantam that sounds very jealous
    all these projections…

    try some OSHO lectures for a change…..

    http://www.homeoflife.com/page1/maina.html

  383. meera says:

    wann remind you for SATSANG
    MR DOGOD

    PREMANANDA

    HERE AND NOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWW

    WWWOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW

    http://www.zaplive.tv/web/premananda-satsang-tv?streamId=premananda-satsang-tv%2F7a6ba75b-8f57-4004-80cf-d3dd519d7b06

  384. prem bubbie says:

    As I see it, all of theses groups and meditations are for people who can’t take themselves lightly in their daily lives. Either, too afraid or just lazy. I agree with you frank n’ furter and pavitro, it’s nice to have a laughter group on new year’s eve but is that all someone can manage- to only laugh on new year’s eve? The idea was, to take that what you discovered in the group or meditation or read in osho’s books then carry into one’s daily life. Also one can find work that suits one’s own “energy”. If catharsis is needed, then get a job digging ditches, working on a farm, a bicycle messenger. etc etc( I did those jobs and others) Just be honest and in tune with one’s self and the rest will follow…. Great ideas from osho, then take them and apply them to yourself and see what happens. I find it sad that humans can regress as well as progress with regards to living “spiritually”. I guess that primal trait that all living things have, called FEAR is that strong. Come on what have you got to lose? Just your insane mind!!!!!! P.S. Sw. Keerti, this site is excellent for expressing anything that comes to “mind”, what’s the big deal??

  385. garimo says:

    Is that light emanating from his pancreas?

    >Most of us have not seen a single photo of Him with such sunny aura.

    Osho was filmed mostly with film, the orbs are a digital camera creation. Most often a reflection of the flash on a particle of dust.

    But ghost hunters like to claim they are spirit orbs.
    I had a friend who claimed orbs followed him everywhere… but then they only showed in his new digital camera…

  386. prem bubbie says:

    Meera, A year digging ditches will clear out that “homosexual” energy of yours. What is the word for “man hater”. You are so far off the south pole that another step you’ll be complaining on the moon. 20 years you’ve been sitting on that fat ass on yours. you must of rejoiced when the internet was invented…it just let you whine and complain from afar and allowed your fat ass to grow even fatter. You and You tube are a match made in hell!!!! When is your birthday? We’ll send you a cake with a muscled up guy in it to pop out. Please take advantage of this gift, or do you know what to do after all of these years?

  387. shantam prem says:

    Ma Meera,

    I have looked enough in me, whether there is some jealousy in me for Jayesh, Amrito, Keerti, Neelam, Shailandra, Samdarshi, Smarpan, Dolano,”Meera”, Premananda etc. including the latest ones.

    Jealousy or envy for what??

    May be some sibling revelry, it will be dishonest to rule this out.

    One thing i can say with my half opened eyes that if with the grace of the master like Osho, one can adore the complexity and simplicity of us all, irreverence attitude grows by itself towards those, who think they are smarter than the street dogs.
    And as you know, very few people in India have pets, most of us have grown with street dogs, who belong to the whole neighbourhood.

    One can miss these simple creatures.

  388. Shanti says:

    Meera… thank you for being here. otherwise we would be totally bored now that the rajneeesh gang in gone to Brazil…

    Imagine… all of us agreeing with each other… how boring…

    And you are getting more attention that you have got in 20 years.

    I can imagine the picture of you going to the UTA center, going to juicy, happy ( gay?) people and ask them if they rather go live with you instead… I would pay for a picture of their faces when you popped that question.

    It is like going to a beach in Brazil and suggest someone to better go live in Siberia in winter.

    The most amazing part of it all is that you really think … all this has nothing to do with you. You are not a wining and bitter old woman who hates people…and your project does not work because of the German mentality… and the homosexual leadership. ha, ha. I am laughing as I write this.

    You are like Sheela on crack!!

  389. meera says:

    yes shanti

    you are full of bitterness and hatred for people

    just like prem bubbi
    sitting on his fatted ars bitching about others in the internet…

    both of you make a pair of bloody rednecks….

  390. meera says:

    shantam
    I got the feeling you were talking about our friend rajneesh… maybe I was wrong
    you were talking about the resort managmenet
    then you are right..

  391. meera says:

    shanti is well experienced with all kinds of dangerous drugs down there in Barcelona..
    have you noticed.. ??!!!!she goes on and on about drugs…

    so she must be facing those experiences daily…

    and cannot cope with it…

    can any of you indian swamis
    take her home to India
    where she can stay peacefully
    without all these negative effects
    which drive her insane
    like a
    clu clux clan racist christian fundamentalists

  392. meera says:

    osho has stated very clear that homosexuals can have their games…
    but far away from HIS PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    there is nothing juicy about hunky -punky -men

    no tantric experience possible

    you don´t ever seem to come across
    real people shanti…
    can´t you see thats all YOUR MAKE-UP
    just a fassade

    behind it
    is a a lot of crap accumulated from the past

    get rid of all that SHIT which is INSIDE OF YOU!!!!

    it is your responsibility … got nothing to do with me…

  393. shantam prem says:

    I am damn clear, resort management is one extreme, man with hallow picture is another.

    and my heartbeats are for the people who are in the middle or who are not part of any religious cult or group or call this by the stupid name, Organisum.

    And Meera, if you don´t find it rude, i wish to know, when was the last time, you were sharing few intimate moments with someone in bed/ in the shower/in the woods?

  394. Shanti says:

    let me rephrase it for you in plain English, meera…
    when was the last time you got laid?… because gosh you need it!

    let me repeat my self dear:
    I can imagine the picture of you going to the UTA center, going to juicy, happy ( gay?) people and ask them if they rather go live with you instead… I would pay for a picture of their faces when you popped that question.

    It is like going to a beach in Brazil and suggest someone to better go live in Siberia in winter.

    do you honestly think that anyone would like to live with you?

  395. meera says:

    why are you asking shantam prem?

    can you talk about your intimate relationship?
    where is this person you are having sex with?
    how much sex do you have with her?
    where do you prefer to have it?

    and how much satisfaction does it give you….?

    after all
    first you have to reveal your intimate life
    before asking others to reveal theirs in public…

    and honest to god
    you want me to reveal anything personal here .. which is full of crack-pots and womenhaters?

  396. meera says:

    yes I know shanti ..
    you always want to repeat the crap you had written before…

    you are full of EGO and stupid as hell…
    you always miss the point
    thats why you repeat your old crap over and over again

  397. Shanti says:

    you did not answer my question…

    DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THAT ANYONE WOULD LIKE TO LIVE WITH YOU?

  398. meera says:

    you talk about YOURSELF shanti

    I have no intention inviting you to come here ..
    thats all your silly fantasies

    what am i going to do with you .. listen to your constant bitching and complaining?

    even a good fucker won´t be able to help you…
    thats another illusion you are trapped in…
    all kind sof pornographic stuff
    stuck in your silly mind

    first you have to be able to LOVE YOURSELF
    before you can love others

  399. Anthony thompson says:

    Come on guys, shanti. Show some compassion.

    You can see the woman is severely damaged.

    Probably to get the attention here is the best thing that has happened to her in 20 years.

    There is no use to keep on discussing with her.
    Part of pain defense has to do with just not seeing herself.
    Just ignore her… and she´ll go away

  400. garimo says:

    Meera, where did Osho say such a thing?

    >osho has stated very clear that homosexuals can have their games…
    but far away from HIS PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    One of Osho’s gay lovers has compiled a blog of what He has said.
    http://swamipremarpana.blogspot.com/

    google is a usefull tool.

  401. meera says:

    garimom
    many people were present when osho ´hammerd´the homosexuals

    many people left him because of this comments

    and many new people don´t know what he said

    here for example here
    you come across a lecture
    where he mentiones that all california should fo to hell with all its homosexuals.. http://www.homeoflife.com/page1/maina.html

  402. meera says:

    it was just a joke..homosexuality is not a problem

    it is just not fit for a tantric society thats all

    and that is why
    he dosen´t want them to be in our commune

    they can have their own communes
    because these people
    never transcend their sexuality
    they are stuck on a very low level ..
    the first chakra

    most of them are womenhaters

    they have no chance to live in a
    loving
    tanric society
    if they remain like this

    and we want to undergo a tranfromation prozess
    in a healthy heterosexual community

    and not get stuck in foolish games… leading nowhere

  403. garimo says:

    >>many people left him because of this comments

    I don’t think people left because of what Osho said,

    They left because of how stupid bigoted sannyasins behaved toward them.

  404. Thanks Frank for the following insigt–
    “if you want to laugh,you dont have to organise a meditation for it.
    it can be easily arranged.
    what do you like?
    i can see you as a benny hill fan….
    or mr bean….
    just whatever tickles your fancy…”

    What is the difference between “organising” and “easily arranged”? It can be “easily organsied” also.
    I don’t know Benny hill? Who is he?
    I do get tickled. You will also get easily tickled if you are alive.
    Now this is becoming a bit serious and political again.

    I came to know through Sannyasworld how the laughter is organised in New York:

    Osho Laughter Meditation
    with Jordan & Kairava

    When:
    Friday, November 18
    8:15pm-9:45pm

    Where:
    Essential Therapy
    122 E. 25th St., NYC (btwn Park Ave. & Lexington)

    Description:
    Laugh your stress off!

    Laughter is a powerful meditative tool. When you laugh, tension disappears and you can feel deep pleasure and relaxation. Consciously laughing for a period of time brings you back, clean and luminous, to the here and now.

    The evening will include dance, laughter and deep silence. The inter-connected group environment will be very comfortable and supportive, and some basic approaches to help you with your laughter will be shared so that anyone can come participate and receive all of the benefits.

    “…nothing makes you stop your thinking as laughter does. Just for a moment you are no more a mind. Just for a moment you are no more in time. Just for a moment you have entered into another space where you are total and whole and healed.”-Osho

    **Bring a change of soft, comfortable clothing and a bottle of water

    Cost: $15

    For more info. and on-line pre-payment, visit: TranceBreath.com
    Contact: Jordan@TranceBreath.com or call 914-693-4820
    =======================================================

  405. prem bubbie says:

    Thanks for saying that Garimo, Osho contradicts himself again, this time regarding being gay. One of his earlier discourses he said to a sannyasin…” being a homosexual is not the problem, being Catholic is”…. that’s pretty close to being exact as
    I can remember. i mentioned in earlier posts how sannyasins latch on to Osho’s latest statement and think it’s final gospel. When I lived in Seattle in 1989-1991 there were a group of extremists sannyasins, more like puritanical who practically drove out most gay sannyasins and not only that but those who drank alcohol or smoked pot on occasion. Also, Meera, for most gays, it genetic. Whether it’s karma, that can be debated. Sure Meera is more than likely brain damaged, is that also karma? or genetic?

  406. prem bubbie says:

    Meera, I heard that Bollywood is producing a remake of Gene Kelly’s “I’m Singin’ in The Rain”. It’s caled “I’m Complain’ In The Rain”. Since you are a dancer and you love to complain, you’d be a shoe in for the part. Sing along Meera: I’m complain’ in the rain, complain’ in the rain, What a glorious feelin’ I’m complain’ again……. I’m complain’, just complain’ in the rain..

  407. prem bubbie says:

    This is the correct posting: Thanks for saying that garimo, Osho contradicts himself again, this time regarding being gay. One of his earlier discourse he said to a sannyasin, “… being homosexual is not the problem, being catholic is.” That’s pretty close to a quote from osho. I mentioned on earlier posts how sannyasins latch on to Osho’s latest statement and think it’s final gospel. When I lived in Seattle in 1989-1991 there were a group of extremists sannyasins, more like puritanical who practically drove out most gays sannyasins along with those who drank alcohol or smoked pot on occasion. Also Meera, for most gays it’s genetic. whether it’s karma, that can be debated. Sure Meera is more than likely brain damaged,.is that also karma? or genetic?

  408. prem bubbie says:

    Meera, i hear Bollywood is producing a remake of Gene Kelly’s “I’m singin’ in the Rain” It’s called “I’m complain’ in the Rain”. Since you’re a dancer and love to complain, you’ll be a shoe-in for the part. Sing along Meera: I’m complainin’ the rain, just complainin’ in the rain,…. what a glorious feeling I’m complainin’ again… just complainin’ just complainin’ in the rain….

  409. Kranti says:

    Shantam..

    Trust you would have read ‘ The Book of Secrets ‘.

    Yesterday I was reading a question regarding a topic which you love . Heart orieneted approach..

    Osho was explaining how all enlightened people are centred at the naval but the way they express can be using eiether mind or heart.. While a Buddha expresses his teaching using mind , a Ramakrishna does so using his heart. He also talks about how he switches between these two ways and puts people in trouble. He also talks about people who only like to listen to his talks and people who like to dance ..

    It was a wonderful stuff and what you always talk about all approaches being available is right there in his talk.. ( I will give you the page number by tonight as i couldnt recollect now )

    If you have not read so far please dont miss out..

  410. Kranti says:

    The reason why i posted the above is because Osho talks about how people who are head oriented / who just want to listen to him talk didnt like the heart oriented approach of dancing when He allowed it .. Someone couldnt stand the dancing and so left Osho onlty to come back quickly to listen to Him.

    So the conflict had always been there even when He was in the body..He explicitly talks about this conflict and it is a nice read…Birds eye view..

  411. shantam prem says:

    Now Keerti is back, and Kranti has read something beautiful about heart and head in Book of Secrets.

    More than thirty years, Osho was hammering on us all the different aspects of mind, heart, being, conditioning and the way beyond.

    We have thousand times more stuff to read and listen than most of the humanity and all too in a very graphic and simple language,

    But than why…just 20 of His long time people could not find a workable way after his departure. It is one of the most humiliating expereince when someone like Rajneessh calls them 21 Baboons, and i am sure, most of the people agree that a way of life called “OSHO” has gone fragmanted.
    The beeds of the broken Mala are running all over the globe to sell the dancing and jumping meditations; developed by him long ago in early 70´s, by claiming oneself enlightend or simply as brand ambassodors.
    Naturally the beeds who have become the custodians of THE WELL, go no where. They are happy to count shoes, During His lifetime maximum people in Kundalini 327, Now 438!

    How people in the commanding position can face these realites in their silence, in their sleep?
    May be i know the answer,” Existance wants it like this. So is the Osho wish.”

  412. Kranti says:

    ” The beeds of the broken Mala are running all over the globe …. ”

    That is really very creative expression..

  413. Shanti says:

    Shantamy ,beloved. let it go… the past is past. we enjoyed it we grew… no need to be like old people longing for it to come back. Those who are thirsty will find the well.
    Times have changed, people have changed, even you and me have changed…
    “The beeds of the broken Mala are running all over the globe.”
    So far so good… it is not even mala time. It stopped in `88 remember?

    Let the light the shine through us… shine on.
    let us find the places where our heart thrills… NOW.
    Give it a try to meera´s place… she is in germany too, ha, ha…
    I love you
    shanti

  414. shantam prem says:

    Shanti Beloved,
    I was expecting someone will write like you did above. This i was feeling in my guts and was contemplating while standing in the cold with the info. stand of the Indian guru in down town.
    “His Anando” reminded me to distribute the fliers .
    I said, ” Listen, as a paid worker, i can take care that no drunkard spits on your stand, no dig pisses under the table´s legs, but to give fliers is a work of disciples who believe in the man.”
    So here are my points why i am insisting on the same point again and again. And where is the difference, when Rajneesh or Meera say the same thing and Shantam too.

    First of all without Letting go, i would not have the courage to speak.
    In my opinion thousands feel the same but don´t want to bear the wrath of the management. They may not go to the resort but keep it as a safe heaven. In case any kind of breakdown, they may need the shelter of 17, Koregaon Park.

    Time has changed and we must flow with the river, but sometime changes are imposed by the powerful without due consideration from all sides but under the influence of their power. Power is without doubt the biggest Aphrodisiac.
    When the changes have grown from within, it has beauty, some ripeness. When they are imposed, they have a quality of rape.
    And than their is a difference between the changes brought forward by the Medicares or by the intelligent ones.
    Team Bush and Team Obama are the perfect examples of our time and this is a personal discretion to think, which kind of team is leading the show at Osho´s world.( Osho´s world is not Osho world).

    This website has a caption-” I will be known through my sannyasins.”
    One can never find such sentences anymore in the main organisation and in their publications.

    Why?

    Because they have side tracked the main track. Such sentences, the soulful sentences cannot be the flavour with the business oriented attitude.

    So when i write in my way of ” Lest we forget”, it is not a old man´s nostalgia with the past, but representation of that master, who dared to raise His hand against the vested interests of His time. He punched the priests and politicians of His time, with our not so strong fists, we can do in our times.”

    And when someone like me writes against the present system, it is as a disciple. When Rajneesh says the same, he is in the process of glorifying his self gratification.

    There is a difference when John Kerry criticised the Bush administration and when Bin Ladan criticised the same through Al Jajeera.

    And still, the differences of approaches should not turn us into the enemies. Can you foresee.. the team Jayesh giving the hug to Keerti or Neelam.

    Simple fact, the universal fact is that if you are not able to live the teachings of your holy book, holy man but still you propagate them, then you are only the Pundit, the scholar, the priest.
    And these people in our master´s eyes, as said in common language are the hairs around the ass. They need Gillette!

    And Shanti, Love for Meera or for others will also be there but to someone like you, i can surely say, Love you babe!

    Shantam

  415. Kranti says:

    Shantam

    The page numbers are 142 & 143 of the big book.
    The chapter is ‘ Self Actualization: The Basic Need ‘

  416. frank says:

    shantam,the disciples will be “best of enemies”,
    of course.
    the “enlightened ones” ere also best of enemies.
    remember,what krishnamurti said about osho.
    “lost enlightenment,criminal etc..”
    osh said k had wasted his life.
    UG K then said K was greatest fraud in 20th century,osho was a pimp.
    what to say about the rest of them(gurus)
    as much badmouthing that you will find in any playground in the bad side of town.

    bitch bitch bitch.

    forgive and forget.

  417. frank says:

    keerti,

    benny hill was a comedian,in whose show,the most famous gag was him and other lecherous older men chasing scantily clad nubile young women.
    i thought you might be familiar with it.
    very popular in india.

    btw.
    can you use the catchphrase?

  418. Anand says:

    I came across this site today:
    http://www.antiprashantam.org
    I wonder what friends here have to say about. I also find this an interesting topic, since therapists and also Osho therapists often engaged in sex with group participants, which in Western guidelines is absolutely unethical.

  419. Kranti says:

    Thanks Anand for the news item.. Better to know these kind of guys and keep ourselves and friends away

  420. frank says:

    psycho-the-rapist
    meets
    benny hill

    i dont know whether to laugh or phone the police……

  421. frank says:

    anand,
    ask anthony,
    he`s got some interesting theories about why therapists can have sex with their clients.

  422. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    ”And when someone like me writes against the present system, it is as a disciple. When Rajneesh says the same, he is in the process of glorifying his self gratification.”

    very good justification Sw . Shantam

  423. frank says:

    btw.anand,
    that`s amazing.
    me talking about benny hill,
    and you finding that site on the same day!

    jackassnews is a synchronistic coincidence generator…

  424. Kranti says:

    It is better to become a disciple of Mr.Bean rather than dealing with fake gurus and fake therapists..

  425. frank says:

    psychotherapy suffers from an imbalance of power between the therapist and the client at the best of times.
    mix in the blindfolded freaky dancing nuage stuff
    and then top it off with the total and complete power of a “zen” “master” and well,
    surprise,surprise…
    you end up with an old guy poking young chicks with his zen stick…..

  426. meera says:

    western psychotherapy???!!!

    their ethic are psychopharmaca

    to suppress your sexual energy

  427. prem bubbie says:

    At today’s Yahoo news web site , there’s an article about Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and that there is concrete evidence of physical changes to the neurons in the brain. Since, most of sannyasins and osho lovers have PTSD- (that’s why we’re sannyasins) please read it. It’s from the AP, titled: ” Scanning Invisible Damage of PTSD, Brain Blasts” No wonder why it’s so difficult to move onward and upward!!!

  428. shantam prem says:

    PTSD
    Pray to God for forgivenness and mercy.
    Breath In breath out for ten minutes everyday,
    Do Dynamic or Kundalini.
    But for God sake don`t be..like that camel Jockey Psychiatrist or like a famous caretaker of a famous master.

    Still no one knows. We are all brave as long as system in us and around us works as per our wishes*

  429. Anthony thompson says:

    Fraqnk has asked me a question about therapists having sex with clients.
    I do not know Prashantam very well, or his story… but this invites a reflection.

    Ethics basically mean a standardized shared behavior agreement common to a group of people ( a culture) within a certain period of time and within a certain context. There is no such thing as “ ethics” in a general form. Unless ,of course , you are unconscious about the fact that the way you operate is within these behavior agreements. That is why ethics change with time and from culture to culture.

    To ask someone to behave in a way that he/she has not agreed and to make him/ her accountable for that is simple stupid and ignorant…

    Most sannyasin therapists do not work within a clinical model of therapy, based on the doctor –patient paradigm, but within a personal development, experiential-educational model of humanistic-transpersonal therapy.

    Within this model the patient is called client and is regarded as a fully self-responsible, free choosing, individual seeking a service: Therapy, or personal development.

    Within this model, the therapist and the client are on an equal bases where the restrictions of transference and counter transference classical of a clinical model do not apply.
    That means that the therapist and the client can engage in any kind of activity common to any horizontal service exchange, including sex, if both are consenting adults, love affair, money lending or friendship.

    Most people, do not know that in the therapeutic world people work within different conceptual models, and try to apply the psychoanalytic or cognitive models to every kind of therapy.

    Will schutz, Fritz perls, Selver, Rogers, Lowen, Kelley, Stevens, Barnett, Lowe, Price, Murphy, Gunther, Pierrakos and many many others worked within this model. And that was the model that they took to Pune when they met Osho. Now, people may not agree with this conceptual model of working with people… but that is their problem. You can not ask sannyasin therapists to be accountable for a way of working they never subscribed to.

    Nowadays within the Osho meditation resort and other sannyas places offering therapy
    have implemented some aspects of the clinical model to the personal development model they have always used. Specially in relation to love affair and sex. But that is a later development and still as nothing to do with the original humanistic model that the therapists brought to Pune.

  430. shantam prem says:

    Similar story as Anand has posted about group leaders and sex.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1166086/How-I-raped-bogus-guru-suburbia-dancer.html

    I came to know this man in Poona around 1993. He and his girls were all praise for late Shyam Singha, the man who was not allowed in Ashram but in humanversity. I always wonder how the policy of banning works. Bad apple of one market fetch premium price in another.

  431. shantam prem says:

    Anthony, 4.5 out of 5 stars for the above post.

  432. Anand says:

    Anthony, the personal model you describe sounds good (from the therapists point of view), but is dangerous in reality. The therapist and client are not on equal base in most group situations, where the therapist often uses hypnotic techniques and through meditations etc. puts clients in altered states, where they loose their rational sense of life. The problem is transference and I have seen that happening a lot. The therapist becomes the predator of his own desires.
    In Pune 1 therapists and sannyasin clients were experimenting together in a closed environment under the guidance of Osho and we were all in similar age groups. Now ‘in the world’ people like Prashantam are probably in the sixties (male), in Russia with young 25 year old innocent Russian women in their groups – at least that is the accusation.
    In the US that would lead to instant lawsuits. Even as far as I am informed in Pune a verbal agreement has been reached, that therapists stay away from group participants for a certain amount of weeks.
    I personally think it is unethical.

  433. garimo says:

    For a minute I was thinking “Hey! he’s the guy who grabbed my crotch one evening in ’81…” but then after thinking about it, I remembered “no, it was some other horney Italian…”

  434. prem bubbie says:

    shantam prem, i can’t tell from your response regarding PTSD. Don’t you value the latest scientific discoveries? Are you still walking in the Dark Ages? The rest of you are hung up whether or not it’s ok or ethical for a therapist to sleep with their patients. If they are both adults , who cares? Unless the person seeking therapy is severely brain damaged. You guys must have lived your past lives in Victoria era England. Enough with the petty ante crap and move on to more substantial things to discuss. All of you puritans, move over to the next line, Meera’s waiting for you.

  435. shantam prem says:

    Anand,
    You have raised very intelligent point and picturised the situation quite clearly.
    One of the top honcho in Resort has been shifted back to New York, because he shocked the quite young Indian girl out of the blue.
    Bubbie,
    It is a fact, that many of the sannyas population specially those who drooped out from their profession to join this and that commune has passed through the PTSD. I am sure, i am one of them.
    May be it is not as obvious as in the situation of a war veterans but similar with the Ponzi scheme joiners. Investment will get double in five years, new man will be born in five years. put your energy totally and relax!

  436. shantam prem says:

    Germany is in Shock as the national goal keeper Mr. Robert Enke, of the football team has commited suicide.
    In the link below, there is one photo of him with the AURA, even nicer than the photo Shanti has shown the other day of neo guru in the market.

    http://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/fussball/topics/robert-enke/tot-selbstmord-hannover-96.html

  437. prem bubbie says:

    So you’re one of those who still believes the world is flat– no matter what proof is given you including seeing it for yourself, you are stuck in the past, clinging to ancient and superstitious ways. So, is this the “New Man” Osho was talking about? To remain stupid and paranoid, suspicious of everyone, afraid to embrace the new, and being intelligent for a change. How sad, though not surprising.. Please keep quoting Osho, it wouldn’t do you any good. Parrots can learn to quote too, but they have an excuse, they’re just parrots.

  438. shantam prem says:

    afraid to embrace the new, and being intelligent for a change….

    I hope for a change, the homo in you will embrace the new…
    may be a daddy will be born out of this*

  439. Kranti says:

    ” I always wonder how the policy of banning works. Bad apple of one market fetch premium price in another.”

    This is significant point for me.. Yesterday somone posted about another guy getting re-admitted in pune after a gap.. Are we talking about some sort of ‘ forgiveness ‘ here and in that process giving another opportunity for the idiot to exploit people again ?

    It is very very common in India for spiritual gurus to cheat / exploit women and have sex with them..Lot of Indian women who dont even look at other man get caught when it is mentioned as ‘ spirituality ‘

  440. Kranti says:

    Although we restrict ourselves to therapist-patient issues , similar exploitation is there in every field .. It is easy to talk about ethics in a smaller context but what about larger areas..

    To me a CEO who allows advertisements for products which prompts teenagers to ride their bike fast is bigger criminal than one therapist who misbehaves with few people..

    A father who drives his children mad by constantly comparing him with others & forcing him to succeed is a bigger criminal.. I know a father who didnt allow any of his 4 children to get married or have relationships because he believed in bramacharia..

    End of the day it is INSANITY of individuals..Both the exploiters and exploited… People are not healthy enough pshychologically… to look at life from a larger perspective and take responsibility for their life…. If we people get an opportunity to throw away 25% of the junk inside the world will be better place

  441. Kranti says:

    In this context what A&J are doing is terrific work..To take Osho mainstream instead of keeping him as a exclusive previllage of few people.. Let us drop all this commune / sannyas nonsense and take Dynamic meditation / Osho discourses everywhere and to every human being possible..

  442. garimo says:

    So what’s a parrot to do?… repost things.

    this is todays mySamasati email from Osho.

    garimo,
    Remember, only that which you can take with you when you leave the body is important. That means, except meditation, nothing is important. Except awareness, nothing is important, because only awareness cannot be taken away by death. Everything else will be snatched away, because everything else comes from without.

    Only awareness wells up within. That cannot be taken away. And the shadows of awareness – compassion, love – they cannot be taken away. They are intrinsic parts of awareness. You will be taking with you only whatsoever awareness you have attained. That is your only real wealth.
    Osho

  443. Kranti says:

    Common Garimo

    Didnt you hear about the parrot who has ability to coin new words according to requirement..It was recently in the news.. I think we are insulting parrots..they have evolved..

  444. Kranti says:

    I come across a ‘ Professor Parots speaks spanish’ in google.. Does that refers to our pshychology professor?

  445. chetna says:

    “I came across this site today:
    http://www.antiprashantam.org
    I wonder what friends here have to say about.”

    Interesting!

    And I thought why he was sh..ing his pans when we came to his kingdom in Italy last spring with Arun from Nepal. He behaved like a cowered.

    I am glad this kind of news is coming out at least for the general awareness of Russians.

    I met Prashantam in Pune. 2 of my friends did a private session with him and both were prescribed sex with him.

    I know one beautiful couple who he managed to screw up. He pushed the wife to have sex with another man (and believe me he did push) so the marriage was nearly broken.

    This guy stinks!

  446. Anthony thompson says:

    No mariage can be broken unless one of the partners want to. You can be prescribed sex or apples, but unless you are willing to do both, nothing will happen. Your are responsible for what you do if you are en adult, even if someone pushes you. no one can push you without your permission, unless you are 12.

    Some one says it is still not ethical.
    Ethics is part of norm it is a subproduct. Unless, of course, you are a fundamentalist catholic and think there is a universal ethics.. which is the idea they promote.

    Ethics is a behavior regulator within the paradigms of a specific group. We have thousands of examples of how this is changed according to context, even by the same people who agreed to this. Sorry sir, there is no universal ethics, because it is behavior agreement and that changes according to what a society describes as Good and bad.and both this concepts are social constructions of reality ( please read Berger).

    What we call reality or norm is a social construction of a group of people. sorry, but it is just like that.

    Regarding sannysing therapists, It is understandable that tyou do not understand. You have a basic ethical model which you unconsciously think it is, or should be universal.

    Getting sexually or emotionally involved with a client was not sanctioned within the humanistic model , simply because it did not see the therapist as a higher authority, but as a facilitator on a horizontal line of relating. and it did not see the client as ” victim”, but as a self responsible adult who freely chooses his/ her own “behavior”.

    Personally, as a psychotherapist I think it is not an easy subject. I personally prefer to refrain from that type of contact with my clients because I do not want trouble, but
    that seems to be of no concern to Prashantam.

    I know that nowadays the regulation in pune is quite strict. there is a 5 weeks window where no contact should happen if someone has been in a group… but you know humans beings tend to have sex in the environments where they develop…so, I do not know how mush that is respected.

  447. shantam prem says:

    “Let us drop all this commune / sannyas nonsense and take Dynamic meditation / Osho discourses everywhere and to every human being possible….”

    Kranti.. Do this.

    May be you can share the everyday report of your efforts to bring Dynamic meditation/Osho discourses to everyone and every where, as far and near, as you think is possible.

  448. Shanti says:

    What is all this morality- ethics issue?
    Since when we sannyasins turned onto moralists.
    People have sex. that is fact. and mostly they do it in the place they work.
    So, if it is consenting adults between therapists and clients, I see no problem.
    If a therapists pushes you or touches you without your consent all you have to do is say no, if he insist kick in the balls. that is all…
    But play victim… like “he seduced me” or or “took advantage of me”… come on!!
    I knew of a friend who said that her therapist abused her for 6 years… six years!! she was 45 at the time.
    I told her to go tell that story to her mother. that is simply not taking acre of oneself. not owning decisions that is all.

    I do not why we women like to play victims.
    and now to get prude about it…

  449. meera says:

    prem bubbie

    ´there’s an article about Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and that there is concrete evidence of physical changes to the neurons in the brain. Since, most of sannyasins and osho lovers have PTSD- (that’s why we’re sannyasins)::::::::´

    talk about YOURSELF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  450. meera says:

    Anthony

    you said : ´Fraqnk has asked me a question about therapists having sex with clients.´

    yes thats absolutly true

    thats why we call them

    Therapists = Rapist

  451. Anand says:

    So Shanti, when you go to your dentist, it is fine for you to have sex with the dentist in the dentist chair? Interesting. Not everyone agrees with you though,
    not everyone went through the Pune 1 experience having sex with everyone.
    Remember: From Sex to Super Consciousness. That is a path and not to be stuck at the beginning.

  452. Shanti says:

    If the dentist is cute enough… no problem. For me it does not matter 2hat is the profession, but weather I feel attracted. why should I play prude?

  453. Shanti says:

    What is all this Victorian thing with sex? I thought we were liberated from all that crap.
    To say ” having sex with everyone” is just stupid. I am talking about having sex with whom you feel attracted.

  454. Kranti says:

    I do agree with Anthony and Shanti to a large extent especially in the context of sannyasins … One expect Osho sannyasins to have minimum awareness and courage for what they are doing and i dont think anyone can force people to have sex in the name of therapy..

    Those kind of people are always there in any profession.. Be it Popes , Priests or School teachers

    Most often the people who get caught with a priest or teacher or a religious guru are in far more vulnerable posiition and weakness than a sannyasin..

  455. Kranti says:

    Shantam.. I said that out of frustration..never mind

  456. frank says:

    i can see it now:

    a psychotherapist cum zen master therapist bluffs his way into tony`s apartment.
    seduces his girlfriend with threats and promises of enlightenment.
    he even bills her for it.
    tony arrives back unexpectedly.
    he walks into the living room to find the master excercising his “droit de seigneur”(and his hot dog)on the couch with tony`s girl.
    tony is shocked.
    but the master looks around at tony,and while carrying on on humping says:

    “sorry sir,there is no universal ethics,because ethics are a behavioural agreement that changes according to what a society calls good and bad.and both these subjects are social constructions of reality(please read berger)…”

    tony replies:
    “i see,you are basing your paradigm in the personal development,experiential model of humanistic transpersonal psychotherapy model”

    and goes into the kitchen to make himself a cup of tea.

  457. frank says:

    tony,you say that
    “the(sannyasin) therapist and client are are on equal basis”
    when the client pays the therapist that`s firstly,financially impossible.
    what you say is nonsense.
    also there is an inequality of power between a 60 year old therapist and a woman in her twenties,when the therapists work is to prescribe activities for the client to do,and the client to trust his (paid for and psychologically)invested in”wisdom”

    to portray that as “equality” is really mad.

  458. Anthony thompson says:

    Frank…. finally you see the point.
    The way you explained ( with the allegory of my girlfriend) it is exactly the way I see it and have somehow lived it… well

    sometimes is my girlfriend the one who goes into the kitchen…
    but you know fair y fair…

    regarding your second post. adults are responsible for their behavior weather they want to be conscious of it or not. In this context there is no such thing as a victim.

    You have to be really naive ( not older than 13) to think that sex is part of a mandatory treatment of any sort.

    Perhaps the woman has issues with setting limits, but she is an adult… therefore self- responsible for her choices.

    A horizontal relationship is defined by the supply of any good that is payed for. To think that therapy is higher because it involved ” help” is childish and ignorant.

  459. frank says:

    that “horizontal relationship”,”not a higher authority” guff
    with the therapist as an equal
    is just so false.

    its like politicians are “servants of the people”

    even a used car dealer might shy away from such embarrasing nonsense.

    of course,”the horizontal relationship” could just be a freudian slip…….

  460. Anthony thompson says:

    It is…
    However, when you get payed for a service you are accountable for that service.
    If you think power resides in “knowledge of the human psyche”"… probably you are psychoanalyst, which is not the paradigm we are talking about here.
    Personal development is different from Clinical psychotherapy… and it involves a different set of values.

    People are accountable for the values they have agreed to share
    You can not accuse Osho of being immoral if the man himself said to be amoral.

    You can not condemn someone for sleeping with his clients, if he/she said to subscribe a model where that behavior is not sanctioned

    Now, you may not agree, that is another matter. and absolutely respectable.

  461. Shanti says:

    What´s wrong with you Frank?
    Too much time in England turned you into a prude Victorian?
    What Anthony says makes complete sense.
    It is like accusing someone of cheating if they have decided to have an open couple.
    lighten up man!!
    no one is a victim… we CHOOSE the actions we take.. even if we do it out f fear… then we are just stupid.
    When I was 19 and was at the ranch I had a lot of people jumping on me… including therapists and my putting limits and saying no was enough.

    And anthony is right… you have to be mentally retarded to believe that having any man inside you is part of “official” treatment. Even if you are a 25 year old Russian…

  462. Anand says:

    Therapists are using techniques, very often hypnosis and NLP. They also play the enlightened pseudo master. They are often older in their fifties and sixties and then pick up from their more innocent young participants and in countries like Russia.
    I agree with you Shanti on consensual sex, but this about misuse of a power position in a group environment of Osho therapists. Please read the witness statements on the website. People were blindfolded and then allegedly sexually abused. Against their own will.
    And this is not the only case. It is a kind of sportsmanship.

  463. frank says:

    i am not condemning anyone for sleeping with anyone.
    just pointing out that to claim that there is no imbalance of power in basic human terms in this so-called paradigm of yours is just disingenuous rubbish.

    to you,it may be a matter of
    ethics
    morality…bla bla bla….

    it looks to me like simple knowledge of the human animal

    from the jungle to the street, bro`

  464. Anthony thompson says:

    Anand. I am a psychotherapist and i can tell you that no one can hypnotize you against your will. any hypnotist will tell you that. regarding NLP is the same.
    If anyone touches anyone who does not want to be to touched is a human right to set limits… or complain to the organization, but if you had consensual sex…
    and then complain of low ethics… please…
    These are two different matters.
    Frank. people are accountable for the values they say to subscribe… weather you like it or not.
    Unless, of course, you think universal ethics is part of “Human nature”.

  465. Anthony thompson says:

    you can not go to a freak show and then complain the Smuts spit blood on your face..

  466. frank says:

    you are ignoring what i actually said

    to claim that there is no imbalance in basic human terms in this so-called paradigm of yours is disingenuous rubbish.

    theres plenty of imbalance.
    why deny it?

  467. meera says:

    innocent young girls were abused
    by socalled psychotherapists
    who worked with sannyasins..

    these psychotheapist were not sannysins

    there is a famous book of a german sannyasin kid
    she discribes what happend to her…
    when she was a teenager

  468. shantam prem says:

    Anthony,

    If everything was so fine on the relating level, why the present administration has made it so tough, though the tradition was to take the robes off at the split of the second?

    And don´t you think with so much freedom available, people were using it for their licentiousness too.
    If not all but a big percentage of people in any kind of authority have used the freedom with minimum accountability.

    And Meera, don´t just blame therapists, people behind your mystic village have also taken the undue advantage of the visiting women seekers.

  469. garimo says:

    Prem Bubbie,
    It looks like you personalize anger and dump it on others or is being the agent provocateur your intention?

    >>>afraid to embrace the new, and being intelligent for a change….

    >I hope for a change, the homo in you will embrace the new…
    may be a daddy will be born out of this

    Shantam Prem,
    I’m thinking you saying this to PremBubbie must be a contagious reaction from feeling angry, because I’m not remembering that breeding more children was ever part of Osho’s message for the New Man. I had the impression he thought the world needed a break from baby making.

    I somehow think when Osho spoke on our having “freedom to our stupidities” he had placed “autosexual, homosexual and heterosexual” all in the same group of people who need to transform their sexual energy into spiritual. I don’t think… or actually what I heard from Him was that it was never His intention for any one group of sannyasins to hurt another because of something he was saying.

    I still think because of our levels of inter connectedness… when we hurt another, we hurt ourselves.

    One of the things I love about Marshal Rosenbergs Nonviolent Communication is learning, remembering and practicing to hear that the core being is always singing “see me beautiful” even when the words are screaming “You’re a fucking asshole.” It’s just a matter of choice and awareness between listening to the being or the pain and choosing which you want to connect with.

    -g

  470. shantam prem says:

    “When I was 19 and was at the ranch I had a lot of people jumping on me… including therapists and my putting limits and saying no was enough.”

    Shanti, it means till Osho was there as a director of the show and house was full, you were in the middle of your youth, ripe as a peach.

    Was it a sense of empowerment that high profile therapists and other celebreties are willing to take you to the Blue Diamond and than the rooms inside of the ashram.

    I am sure you were not prude from your very begining, but how you were maintaining the balance between the power of your youth and power of their wisdom.

  471. Anthony thompson says:

    you say:
    theres plenty of imbalance.
    why deny it?
    Well Frank that is a moral judgment within your own paradigm.
    Not within the paradigm I am exposing.
    Shantam in pune the rules changed because the shared values of the place changed…obviously

  472. garimo says:

    To me, it’s not a matter of sex… it’s a matter of respect and that takes into account the power imbalance which some individuals abuse.

    I don’t care who’s who. Don’t just grab, ask first, in all day to day situations. “I’d like to touch you here, is that okay with you?”

    It’s not so difficult. yes mean yes, no means no… and silence does not mean yes, it means more discussion is required.

  473. shantam prem says:

    shared values of the place changed…

    Do these shared values changed the way seasons change, the way leaves change the color or the values were changed the way board of directors wanted them to change?

    Just read no thought of the day-

    The moment innocence disappears, the soul of intelligence is gone,
    it is a corpse. It is better to call it simply “intellect.”
    It can make you a great intellectual, but it will not transform your life and it will not make you open to the mysteries of existence.

    Osho is giving us a simple question for the self contemplation as an individual and as a part of the shared value system.

  474. shantam prem says:

    Garimo,
    YOu have pointed rightly about my words written to Bubbie during the day.
    It was a sudden reaction, uncalulaed.
    When i was thinking after wards i realised that from my four years in college as a physics student, i remember only the Newton´s third laws of motion, ” Actions and reactions are equal and opposite.”

  475. frank says:

    tony says
    “that`s a moral judgement within your own paradigm.not the paradigm i`m exposing.”

    a pathetic cop-out.
    complete hogwash
    its not a moral judgement at all.

    this “equal basis” claim is completely faudulent

    you know there`s a power imbalance.
    even someone in the “thick as shit paradigm” can see that.

    why do you deny the power imbalance ?

    looking out for your position of power?

  476. frank says:

    that should be `fraudulent`

  477. Anthony thompson says:

    Shantam. shared values changed because mostly the context changed and the assigned values to certain behaviors changed… as always.

    In pune 1 most, if not all, therapists slept with the participants of the groups… Why? because that was the paradigm they worked with. If they would have been doing classical psychoanalysis that would have not been possible or accepted. But they came out of the human potential movement where that practice was part of the model.

    Someone says… well it was because we were same age group… well that was not the reason. Jan Foudrain was 60 then, and many therapist were on the late or mid fifties, and the participants were in the mid twenties.

    So the paradigm of “same age group” is part of the mind set of the person who says it, not of those times.

    frank says, there is a clear power imbalance… meaning adults in personal development environment are not self- responsible, free choosing individuals… well that is Frank´s paradigm, weather he is aware or not. But it was not the paradigm then, in pune.

    Some one says “ask before grabbing”… that person´s paradigm ( I personally agree with that).

    However, Fritz Perls, the creatror of gestalt therapy, used to grab women without asking in the hot baths at Esalen ( he was 70 then). His paradigm was that it was the person´s responsibility to set limits, not his to imagine them for them.

    I personally do not agree with that… but that is my conceptual model… I can not ask Perls for accountability of my model… I can only do that to what he says to subscribe.

    That is my whole point.

  478. Anthony thompson says:

    … and frank I have no more power than the one anyone want consciously or unconsciously assign to me and my position.

  479. Anthony thompson says:

    … and a proof of that. .. you yourself have placed no value on my Ph. D. while in different contexts and shared values that is considered… powerfull…

  480. Anthony thompson says:

    … if you place value in a ph. D., then it becomes important. But it is YOU the one who constructs that reality..not the letters PH. D.

  481. frank says:

    tony,

    you can use the word “paradigm” as many times as you like ,if you think it sounds impressive,
    but it doesn`t mask the fact,
    so transparent,t
    hat the concept that there isequal power between therapist and client is a self-serving falsehood.

  482. shantam prem says:

    what so ever the Academic research of Prof. Thompson says, the correction in the sex energy market of ashram was in the urgent need of adjustment as in the name of love and meditation it was becoming like a fish market.

    Thanks heaven, that the bosses realised that not only they but most of the spoiled souls are also touching sixty, it is the right time to curb the narcissistic way of self indulgence.
    Get one less than 20 year younger and meditate. Doll er starved Russians and obedient far Eastern girls are the right tools to give the final push to inner blocks, after all Osho has made it very clear, God dead or alive, we have to fight our case without any external lawyer, and one does not know whether the Saint Peter or YAM RAJ, understands the round about language of sannyas English!

  483. Anthony thompson says:

    Frank… you are just unaware of the way you work as far as criteria is concerned. .. and unconsciously just repeating the psychological model of your particular environment.

    when we speak of psychological work with people;
    “ people “ are, what you consider them to be. And then you relate to them “ through” those considerations.

    That is why it is so important to understand the conceptual model of how the client or patient is seen in terms of the particular therapy or personal development work

    If you consider people who go to therapy needy, patients, non-responsible for their choices or behavior, then i will have to agree with you.

    BUt if you consider people who go to therapy, clients who PAY for a service… actually employers of the therapist and are self-responsible free choosing adults , your model is jut out of place.

  484. shantam prem says:

    What about the transformatory needs of the new generation.

    Thanks to Internet, joy of auto eroticism has increased multi fold. Open the site of your choice, choose the girl/boy of your choice, Do the Tratak meditation at the body parts of your choice, breath in Breath out…. This is Tantra. in time of Aids and recession.

    Than why one should go to Poona?
    May be for a Pizza with a glass of red wine facing Swiming pool and after wards a cigratte of Marlboro, made in Nepal!

  485. prem bubbie says:

    Garimo, I’m mostly a provocateur, with a little anger. the anger is not from what i think trivial things, but just from watching stupidity in action, from all of humanity and especially from sannyasins, the ones who think they are superior to others because they follow osho, yet act like a bunch of spoiled 5 year olds.. What was it osho said… “it’s easy to destroy, a child can destroy, but it takes intelligence and awareness to create”. (As close as I can remember) Garimo—-What you posted was beautifully said.

  486. Shanti says:

    I think what anthony is saying is one of the most intelligent things I have read here.
    He is explaining how we all work with conceptual models of the world and that affects how we see and value things.
    thank you for reminding me… that meaning is not outside myself.

  487. shantam prem says:

    Around 5 year old boy in Germany is called Bubbie!!!

  488. prem bubbie says:

    Shantam Prem You say to do dynamic and kundalini meditation every day.. as it were going to solve everyone’s problems. If that were true the sannyasin community would not be the basket case that it is today and was for the last 35 years. There is no one method to fit all and you should know that, even osho repeatedly said to experiment and find what works for you… not just to relieve stress, but to put you in a meditative state… as Garimo posted his letter from osho….. awareness and meditativeness is what counts- the discovery of one’s true nature, nothing else matters… if therapy helps you, then do it, if doing one of Buddha’s meditations, then do it, if dynamic, do it…. if digging ditches, do it ….get it?????? I believe that for most people osho’s meditations are only a ,a start… these are, as he said, meditations for the lazy… Lazy Man’s Guide to Enlightenment. we are thick headed egoists….. We need lots of work to wake up… don’t stop until you discover your true nature, BY WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY

  489. prem bubbie says:

    Shantam Prem You say to do Dynamic and kundalini meditation every day.. as it were going to solve everyone’s problems. If that were true the sannyasin community would not be the basket case that it is today and was for the last 35 years. There is no one method to fit all and you should know that, even osho repeatedly said to experiment and find what works for you… not just to relieve stress, but to put you in a meditative state… as Garimo posted his letter from osho….. awareness is what counts- the discovery of one’s true nature, nothing else matters… if therapy helps you, then do it, if doing one of Buddha’s meditations, then do it, if dynamic, do it…. if digging ditches, do it ….get it?????? I believe that for most people osho’s meditations are only a ,a start… these are, as he said, meditations for the lazy… Lazy Man’s Guide to Enlightenment. we are thick headed egoists….. We need lots of work to wake up… don’t stop until you discover your true nature, BY WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY

  490. prem bubbie says:

    Thanks Shanti, for being intelligent and practical. So many fucking puritans. What an oxymoron!!! A sannyasin puritan!!!! Meera, I’d respond to you, but you’re brain damaged and can’t understand.

  491. Anand says:

    Anthony, the seventies in Pune were different, as much as they were different all over the world then. And I was also participating in Pune 1 groups at that time, so I know what was all happening in Koregaon Park. That was the time of the sexual revolution.
    I know about hypnosis as well. But in a group process using hypnosis, you put people in altered states and you should not misuse this power. At least that is my opinion. I am not talking about sex between two consenting adults.
    We talk about abuse in a group situation (see the reference to the website).
    Here in the US, where I live you would put your house in danger.

  492. garimo says:

    >when we speak of psychological work with people;
    >“ people “ are, what you consider them to be. And then you relate t>o them “ through” those considerations.

    >That is why it is so important to understand the conceptual model >>of how the client or patient is seen in terms of the particular therapy or personal development work

    Anthony,
    Can we share agreement in this instance that Prashantam the “therapist” did not share the same “conceptual model” as his clients and failed to relate to them in a responsible considered manner?

  493. garimo says:

    Anand,
    >We talk about abuse in a group situation (see the reference to the website).

    Let’s also acknowledge the first hand accusations on that website are gibberish.

  494. shantam prem says:

    You say to do dynamic and kundalini meditation every day.. as it were going to solve everyone’s problems…..

    Prem Bubbie

    If you see the context, i was saying the above as a satire.

    About rest of your post, there is not a word to disagree about.

    When you read your own posts, this one is one full with wisdom and understanding-
    “There is no one method to fit all and you should know that, even osho repeatedly said to experiment and find what works for you… not just to relieve stress, but to put you in a meditative state… as Garimo posted his letter from osho….. awareness is what counts- the discovery of one’s true nature, nothing else matters… if therapy helps you, then do it, if doing one of Buddha’s meditations, then do it, if dynamic, do it…. if digging ditches, do it ….get it?????? I believe that for most people osho’s meditations are only a ,a start… these are, as he said, meditations for the lazy… Lazy Man’s Guide to Enlightenment. we are thick headed egoists….. We need lots of work to wake up… don’t stop until you discover your true nature, BY WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY”

  495. chetna says:

    Anthony, I am deeply disappointed with your last posts. And if it is your girlfriend that has to go to the kitchen and “make some tea” I am surprised she is still with you, unless you have taught her some of your concepts.

    What you are saying is like to blame a raped victim that she has provoked it in man by her clothes, laughter etc. So many women in Russia could not report rapes because of these stupid concepts.

    I have wondered for long why sannyasins are so f..cked up. The number of sick people one can meet around Osho is scary. Now we are even saying that it is ok for someone like Prasham\ntam to sexually abuse women as we are all adults and must be responsible for it. I find most of the posts above idiotic.

    Some people are vulnerable and good psychotherapists can abuse their power very easily.

    I am sick that those rapists represent Osho. Innocent people read Osho and look for Him in those therapists and centre leaders who are obsessed with sex STILL being in their 60s.

    It is a painful time to see what people make of the enlightened being’s message…..

  496. shantam prem says:

    Bravo Chetna

    It is a painful time to see what people make of the enlightened being’s message…..

  497. garimo says:

    Chetna, Just for clarity, I wonder who is saying this? Are you? I know I didn’t.

    >Now we are even saying that it is ok for someone like Prasham\ntam to sexually abuse women as we are all adults and must be responsible for it.

  498. Kranti says:

    ” BUt if you consider people who go to therapy, clients who PAY for a service… actually employers of the therapist and are self-responsible free choosing adults , your model is jut out of place.”

    This is the main point.. What Anthony is stating seem to be in the context of people who are mature & aware enough to see that they have ‘ problems ‘ and going to a therapist for a solution..

    We are talking about ‘ Pshycholigically ‘ healthy people here.. If we are not then the danger is there is every filed..

    Secondly most of you seem to accept ‘ sex’ is integral part of the treatment and the ‘ client ‘ has no choice except to accept that . I dont think that is correct.. If someone is not willing to obey what the therapist says they always have a choice to drop out of it.. What was the need to go through it and come back and say ‘ I was a victim ‘

    My current understanding is you can not be hypnotized without your willingness.. Hypnosis is just ‘ allowing ‘ someone to guide you to a reaxed state .. I have attened hypnosis sessions and I couldnt be hynotized because i was not ready to let go..I was damn mind oriented..

    Abuse is there in every field.. It is not restricted to therapy and sannyasins.. We can not narrow down on sannyasins going thru therapy and say therapists are rapists.

    Even while choosing a Osho meditation we choose what suits us..Not the meditation forced on us..

    So it depends on the context..My undersatnding Anthony is being very specific about the context and he is not suggesting anything in general..

  499. Kranti says:

    In general..Yes..Exploitation is always there ..

    Exploiters are there , Victims are there.. And it is not restricted to therapy / sannyasins community alone

    Just take a look at Indian newspapaers..Women getting illtreated / sexually getting abused by doctors , governtment officials , police and gurus are happening everyday .. People who go to police for protection get raped.. Look at all those situations and you will see a great imbalance of power.. Even there it is always ‘ force’ not ‘ with consent ‘ ..

  500. garimo says:

    Again for clarity

    Kranti, for where do you get this conclusion?

    >Secondly most of you seem to accept ‘ sex’ is integral part of the treatment and the ‘ client ‘ has no choice except to accept that

  501. Kranti says:

    ” Can we share agreement in this instance that Prashantam the “therapist” did not share the same “conceptual model” as his clients and failed to relate to them in a responsible considered manner?”

    Garimo has got a point here.. Prashantam is ‘ an individual ‘ who didnt give a damn to the ‘ ethics ‘. But the clients always had choice ..didnt they ? On what ‘ model & ethics ‘ they agree to get abused ? ‘ Victim ‘ model ?

  502. garimo says:

    oops… from where

  503. Kranti says:

    Garimo.. I used the word ‘ most of you ‘ and ‘seem ‘ to be on the safer side

    Because Therapy is vast filed and it is not restricted to sex alone.. How are we restricting ourselves to ‘ sexual treatment ‘ alone and categorizing therapists as ‘ rapists ‘.. In my opinion that is too big a judgement about therapists as a group..It is the same as saying all enlightened masters ‘ are bogus just because bogus people are out there exploting people..

    All I was saying is I look at what Anthony saying a specific context..

    Let me know if my understanding is incorrect

  504. garimo says:

    My impression is more like:

    Secondly *some* of you seem to accept ‘ sex’ is *somtimes* integral part of *some* treatment(s) and the ‘ client ‘ has *to be informed that their participation is a choice that they are responsible for.

  505. garimo says:

    There is not a sannyasin police force to enforce behavior policy on rogue enlightened therapists. No one represents Osho more than anyone else, so it’s better to hold individuals responsible their actions as individuals, not as extentions of Osho.

  506. Kranti says:

    What about this Garimo?

    “Secondly *some* of you seem to accept ‘ sex’ is *mostly* integral part of *most* treatment(s) and the ‘ client ‘ has *to be informed that their participation is a choice that they are responsible for.”

    Thats the impression i get with all these ‘ rapists’ remarks.. If sex is not part of the equation then there is no question of talking about sexual exploitation ..But ofcourse other forms of abuse can still be there..

  507. Kranti says:

    ” so it’s better to hold individuals responsible their actions as individuals, not as extentions of Osho.”

    thats the point i am also sharing .. Infact that is the point i highlight even in the context of someone like Andreas when he attributed every that went wrong to Osho..

    But I also agree that lot of people thrown in to the ‘ system ‘ may not be ready for evevrything.. While it is beautiful to talk about Osho , Freedom and openess etc the other side of Freedom & Choice presents major challenge

    I will not ask my sister who is struggling due to ‘ domestic ‘ abuse for 10 years to go to a therapist because she is not aware and not ready enough to handle a free community.. When I took her a Psychiatrist for help the Psychiatrist got angry because she was not ready to see what she is doing to herself..

    There are millions of people in India who need help..But they are not ready for the help we are talking about..unless there is some sort of ‘ sannyasin police force “

  508. garimo says:

    When its always a issue of being at choice and responsibility. I don’t see how abuse is possible. it’s just consenquence… and then the next choice is made… and then the next.

  509. Kranti says:

    Even from this context only i personally got frustrated and said

    ‘ Let us drop all this commune / sannyas nonsense and take Dynamic meditation / Osho discourses everywhere and to every human being possible….”

    that made Shantam react by asking for a daily report on how many people i reached out to…

    I was trying to look at what Osho gave us and see whether that can be segragated from the sannyas / commune system as such and take it to masses..

    An individual struggling with so much junk inside just need ‘ Dynamic meditation ‘ and ‘ No-mind ‘ therapy …But he can dance and celebrate where he is..

  510. Shanti says:

    My god. chetna… you are so conditioned that you can not see that we are not talking about adults taking advantage of children.
    But of healthy adults relating to each other.
    Prashantam did not force anyone to have sex with him. That is nowhere in the story. If that would have been the case I would agree with you.
    Why a therapist should be above what he teaches his participants? If he tells the clients to” live your truth”… he is also doing the same.
    A different matter would be if he would have raped someone… but that is not the case. The story says he is a therapist and told the woman ( a poor, innocent 25 YEARS OLD russian) to have sex with him… AND SHE THOUGHT IT WAS PART OF THE TREATMENT… are you joking?

    come on!! are we more stupid than before the sexual revolution!!??

  511. Shanti says:

    The poor 25 TEAR OLD innocent girl said:
    “I had not enough time to grasp the happening he ordered me to undress and the next moment he was inside of me and it all ended. I was surprised he did not use condom. I was shocked and indignant.”

    It is a joke? no time to grasp? undressed and then inside… and no condom?

    Ok, lets see. did she think she went for a gynecological exam?

    It all ended too soon? no foreplay?.-
    This is called bad sex, if we believe the story, not abuse or rape.
    This woman is simply playing the victim… and refuses to take responsibility for her choices. that´s it… then she thought it over … and said wait a minute!.. that was bad sex… and i actually did not feel like… my god he abused me!!

    Women like this one are a disgrace to womanhood. If you do not want to do something just say no. If he forces you, report to the police. but own your choices.

    Even with NLP and hypnosis… anand makes its sound like some powerful witchcraft that makes innocent people do things they do not want… that is sheer stupidity.

    As a woman I have had to faced many times unwanted approaches from men. and I know if i do not dare to put limits is my responsibility.. it does not matter weather is the pope or god. Unless someone psychically forces me… I am my own master of my choices.

  512. Kranti says:

    Going off topic here..

    Thought Europeans are civilized..take a look at the link

    http://puertogaleradive.com/blog/index.php?title=a_barbaric_whale_and_dolphin_killing_in_&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

  513. shantam prem says:

    First of all, why suddenly all the therapists and meditation teachers are going to Russia?
    For 25 years they were active in central Europe, selling dreams and visions till the point people became disillusioned.
    To be disillusioned in itself is a great achievement.
    But the sellers, the cheaters of any kind rarely get disheartened. they change the cities and countries to sell their expired products and schemes.
    It is a pure Ponzi scheme that we teach you to breath from your Yoni and Lingam and in this way you will have a lift from first to seventh Chakra and up there in the seventh sits the CEO, he will give the promotion with a medal; now you are awake, go and teach other people how to breath from their Tantra organs.
    in a simplified version of the journey some accidents can happen, let people take this in a sportive way, specially when the jurisdiction is not of UK or USA.

  514. Shanti says:

    one last remark on the subject
    the Russian girl says:
    “I had not enough time to grasp the happening he ordered me to undress and the next moment he was inside of me and it all ended. I was surprised he did not use condom. I was shocked and indignant.”

    She was surprised he did not wear a condom and not by the fact that she was penetrated?
    strange ah?

  515. frank says:

    the guy is probably not guilty of anything more than sticking his dick where he shouldn`t have.
    it`s an easy mistake to make when everyone is blindfolded.

    of course,these days,gurusex is simply a lifestyle choice like being straight,gay,bi,s and m,swinging,open relationships,dogging,into donkeys etc..
    but it is extremely popular and gaining pop every day.

    i had an email discussion with sarlo about it some time ago.

    i suggested that he added to his “gururatings” a “sexguru-rating”.
    – a star rating system,like the original “gururatings” that relates to each guru`s performance in the sack:

    5***** the real deal.genuine mahamudra.dissolves duality.you wont know whether you `re coming or going
    4**** high-energy tantric all-nighter.you probably wont be able to walk straight for a couple of days.
    3*** nice eyes,but tongue hangs out a bit..benefit of the doubt
    2** dubious philosophy,dubious hygene,and what was that red rash?
    1* all over before you could say `limp biscuit`-maybe consider celibacy
    -1 * backdoor man.
    definitely time for celibacy

  516. Kranti says:

    Yes Shanti..You are right..Strange way of explaining..If sex itself is forced what is the point of talking about a condom? Does that mean it would have been alright if that guy has used a condom?

  517. Kranti says:

    Yes frank..that would certainly help.. People can atleast know what to expect from a particular guru..

    We have this credit rating agencies for rating financial instruments on their strength / weakness.

    What to do.. We have come to a stage where a guru has to be rated like that..Time will come when before someone becomes a disciple they will ask the guru what is his rating and then decide..

    Then pressure will be on the gurus to ‘buy ‘ a certain rating and market themselves rightly. Media will play a role in promoting certain gurus etc etc..We can go on…

    Where is enlightenment in all of these?

  518. shantam prem says:

    God and Love took thousands of years before they lost their appeal. So much exploitation in the name of Thee.
    Enlighenment and Masters, these two words did not took much time to loose their shine.
    Ego´s hunger for recognition in this unorganised sector and the craving of fresh and young skin whether in this life or above, it will be a great age when instead of egolessness, spiritual field will have the healthy egos, the wholesome (wo)men.

  519. meera says:

    shantam said :

    ´ And Meera, don´t just blame therapists, people behind your mystic village have also taken the undue advantage of the visiting women seekers.´

    shantam

    I´m talking about teenagegirls raped by therapists

    thats totally differnet….

    here again we have the example of
    ´authorities banning others…
    becauseof jealousy discrimination and powertrip…..

    osho was and is known as SEX guru………….

    SEX GROUPS were given by westerners to westerners

    Indians had no sex
    because hardly any indian women

    and were not allowed in the groups

    so what do you expect from poor indian chaps?

    what is wrong with a westerner having sex with an indian?

    still people in power..
    this time the indians
    were jealous
    with other indians…

    this stupid white women
    loged a complain against these people from ´mysticvillage
    because she is a
    RACISTS

    not a loving sannyasin…

  520. shantam prem says:

    Can some one tell, whether Osho has answerd a similar question?
    Beloved Bhagwan/Osho,
    I am in my early sixties and have so much urge to be with much younger women. Would you like to say something about December May attraction?

  521. meera says:

    one thing is certain………..

    WE DON´T NEED PSYCHOTHERAPISTS

    because these gyus are more insane then anybody else…

    what we need are

    MASTERS

    not shrinks..

    the western-world is already overloaded with madhouses

  522. shantam prem says:

    Meera,
    Since few days i was thinking to say or not to say, that i hope, you don´t impose your values on your daughter.
    Just now when i have read your above comment, i have simply said this.

    I am sure you are a good daughter and good mother, who fullfills her responsibilty so much so that you live among the beer drinker, cow eater, gays and pre mature cum-ers and so on.

    May be in reality you are diferent but from your writings and the throw of the words, it all point towards an obsessive compulsive behaviour.
    But it is nothing unusual in the world of Osho, most of us have this strong likes and dislikes which blinded us to many other finer shades of life.

    Any way, may i ask, who of my good friends at mystic village have shared the memorable moments with you?

  523. meera says:

    shantam

    ´mysticvillage ´is part of my project `W:E: west-east

    THE COMMUNE OF THE NEW MAN NEW WOMAN NEW CHILD

    WE are NOT part of this old and rotten society

    THE NEW MAN IS THE ONLY HOPE FOR HUMANITY ::OSHO

  524. Anand says:

    Garomo, why do you think these testimonials are gibberish? Because these are Russians, not speaking proper English?
    Chetna: I agree with your letter.

  525. garimo says:

    >Garomo, why do you think these testimonials are gibberish? Because these are Russians, not speaking proper English?

    In order for me to feel like I’m not appearing as gullible and foolish as some of the people making the accusations appear to be, YES!
    I want the evidence that is presented to collaborate the accusations be communicated as clearly as the intentions of the website and the list of itemized accusations.

    Just because I read some mish/mash claims posted on a internet website, I’m not going to automatically get all of my emotional ga ga buttons pushed. I’d prefer to be able
    to view the evidence or lack of evidence from a place of not knowing, rather than from some illusion – thinking I do know who did what to whom because it’s written online. (Not all internet spam comes from Nigeria)

    And yes, if someone was to make a claim that I was responsible for them catching a cold because they were too intimidated to put socks on… I’d likely
    dismiss anything else they’d have to say as well.

    If I were charged to investigate these allegations, the first thing I’d ask is: Who and Where are the event promoters… and Why did they allow for
    any abuse of their customers by the freaky Italian they were pimping?
    What were they thinking when they invited this guy to their country. He was the product they were selling. The liability is theirs to share for selling a inferior product.

    If as published the goal is to educate others that Prashatam is a “Moral Criminal” (which sounds a bit like gibberish) then the only thing I can possibly find “Spiritually or Morally Abusive” would be nonconsensual groping of someone who is blindfolded. If actual crimes have been committed, “eating people and spits out, because to it it is pleasant” or “beats men and banishes as contenders, young girls – fucks without relations,”(or condoms) then they should be taken to a judge… or settle out out court with the big cash payoff… but not a hookey website of unsubstantiated rumors and gossip, because the result from such will be more meaningless chatter on other websites.

    My name is *garimo* and this is what I thought about that.

  526. garimo says:

    settle out out court = settle out of court

  527. chetna says:

    I was not talking about adults having sex. I have nothing against sex and all that comes with it when people are happy to do it together. None of my business.

    But I have met people who have done groups with Prashntam and a close of mine for some reason trusted him. Thankfully, she was not so stupid and ran away form his extraordinarily expensive “massage” training.

    In fact, I do not even care about Prashantam, but what I care about that people like him do it under umbrella of Osho.

    Russia has become the second India. I have very little contact with authentic Russians, but when I do I am shocked.

    They have so many satsang teachers who claim to be enlightened masters. They have read so much and have been to so many schools. It is great but it looks like they’ve just come out of Gulag and so hungry that anything will do.

  528. chetna says:

    I was not talking about adults having sex. I have nothing against sex and all that comes with it when people are happy to do it together. None of my business.

    But I have met people who have done groups with Prashntam and a close friend of mine for some reason trusted him. Thankfully, she was not so stupid and ran away form his extraordinarily expensive “massage” training.

    In fact, I do not even care about Prashantam, but what I care about that people like him do it under umbrella of Osho.

    Russia has become the second India. I have very little contact with authentic Russians, but when I do I am shocked.

    They have so many satsang teachers who claim to be enlightened masters. They have read so much and have been to so many schools. It is great but it looks like they’ve just come out of Gulag and so hungry that anything will do.

  529. chetna says:

    No idea why it has come out twicce. Sorry!

  530. chetna says:

    “What Anthony is stating seem to be in the context of people who are mature & aware enough to see that they have ‘ problems ‘ and going to a therapist for a solution..
    Kranti, in my view, mature and aware person will never go to a therapist.
    “We are talking about ‘ Pshycholigically ‘ healthy people here.. If we are not then the danger is there is every filed.”
    Kranti, this is even funny. Why would a psychologically healthy person go to a psychotherapist? Or to Prashantam’s group? Or any other group. To me for 2 reasons: own vulnerability or to use another’s vulnerability.
    Osho said as well as professionals that psychotherapists are the sickest people. We are all mad, no doubt here, but psychotherapists are slightly more cause on top they believe they can help others with their mind gibberish.

    The world is mad!

  531. meera says:

    THE HELP WILL COME FROM RUSSIAN PEOPLE ::OSHO

    western people are mad because of the cap-it-all-system

    western has an outgoing mind and lost its way back….

    what psychology is doing is scratching on the surface…

    moreover psychotherapists
    are more mad then anybody else…

    their whole business of the psychotherapist
    is to make people again fit
    for the
    ´ratrace´of cap-it all-ism

    russians don´t belong to this system…
    they have a totally different lifestyle
    their mentality is different

    and the Russia is vast
    so they have to cope with a totally different life
    without all the socalled comfort….

    this ´comfort´of the west has become a calamity…

    big cities are hatchingplaces for paranoia
    too many cars and factories polluting the air…
    out of greed they cut the forest in thirdworld countries
    which is creating the ozon….
    they pollute cottonfields with chemicals
    of thirld worldcountries where many people are poisend
    and die
    only to produce more useless clothes
    made by millions of poor factoryworkers
    in thirld worldcountries
    only to contribute to more piles of clothes
    thrown out in the rubbish
    people have too much..
    and throwing and bying more
    because the don´t know what to do with their lifes
    except SHOPPING
    and working 8 hours a day for greedy companies
    who use the money to create more atombombs and war-material

    THE NEW MAN
    is s. o who goes totally discontinues with the past…
    he will create communes
    and TOGETHER people will work
    independent from governements…

    alone one is not able

    it needs THE INTELLIGENZIA to change the world

    ´200 enlightened people are enough
    to change this world into a paradies´ osho

  532. meera says:

    From their very childhood we start teaching children what is right and what is wrong, what should be done and what should not be done.

    And they become conditioned so much that they forget completely that this is not their own voice.

    They start thinking this is their conscience — it is not.

    It is a strategy of the priests and the politicians, a conspiracy against man.

    They have created a conscience in you and because they have created a conscience in you they have prevented the growth of your own conscience.

    Your own conscience comes out of your own consciousness; it can’t come from the outside. Nobody can give it to you, it has to happen to you in your deep aloneness.

    The moment that authentic insight has arisen in you, your consciousness is born, YOU are born. This is a rebirth. You are born anew. You have reached the end of the way, there is nowhere else to go. You have arrived home.

    OSHO

  533. Kranti says:

    Chetna

    ” Kranti, this is even funny. Why would a psychologically healthy person go to a psychotherapist? ”

    Sorry.. I didnt use the right words.. What i wanted to communicate by stating ‘ psychologically healthy person ” is a person who is aware of his mental / emotional struggles.. I didnt mean people who have no need for any therapy.. I mean people who are aware enough to do know what they are doing…

    In simple terms think about a sannyasin ..me or you .. We have needs to meditate and become aware , we may even prefer to do some therapy because we want to to get rid of deep rooted emotional patterns and so we seek help..But that doesnt mean we are psychologically sick or mad , that we will allow any nonsense…I feel those kind of aware people will not get caught in sexual abuse.. I dont see a Chetna or Shanti as people who can be exploited by therapists.. they have independednt thinking and awareness..

    Ofcourse someone young and not aware enough can be thrown into the hands of therapist because someone else brough them to him / introduced them..Even then i dont see why that person should allow a therapist to blindfold them and go inside them later to come back and say ‘ Oh I was victim ..I was not aware what was getting inserted in me ‘ kind of excuses..

  534. Neo Vivek says:

    At regards to this (im)balance of power and adults behaving as adults and *always* setting proper boundaries cause they come from perfect childhood.. BS.. people rarely have perfect childhood where they are taught all basic life skills .. Totally agree with frank, imbalance of power is usually there.
    many adults ( past-me included) are not even aware that there is such a thing called setting boundaries!!!!

    And hey?! It is really news that people; adults-drop-their-guard once the trust relationship has been established?!
    You want example??? Imagine how hitler managed to get so many *educated* *adult* germans to elect him. Some form of trust was established and once that was done, people, adult-people dropped their reasoning mind.

    Anthony thompson, world is not ideal; adults are children.

  535. Anthony thompson says:

    There seems to be an enormous conceptual misunderstanding here.
    First. Prahsnatam is not therapist, he is a group leader, a facilitator. He has no training to deal with clinical processes, what he offers and his training are to deal with a self-experiential education within a personal development model.
    This kind of work has been called therapy in the world of Osho, but that is a wrong word. mostly because Osho himself could not tell the difference.

    Therapy belongs to the clinical model where there is an obvious power imbalance because it is based on diagnosis-treatment -cure. And that is done by the therapist… of course he retains the power to develop and implement that.

    Osho therapists are not really therapists they are facilitators or group leaders who function under the humanistic psychology paradigm.

    I think this is a source of the misunderstanding.

    People who do groups in pune or with pune therapists are not supposed to be psychologically sick, but normal neurotic seeking self awareness and personal development.

    Most Osho ” therapists”, are not clinical psychologists, so they can not offer therapy, only personal development… and within that conceptual model, the relationship is considered horizontal. Therefore sex, friendships are as part of the relationship you can have with your lawyer, doctor, or shop keeper.

  536. Kranti says:

    Prem Bubbie shared with me a news item on children’s behavious & brain conditioning..somewhat relevant topic althought not directly..

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/20091112/ts_usnews/yourkidscantsaynotocandyblameitontheirbrains

  537. Kranti says:

    Thanks anthony…I found it really enlightening ..

  538. Shanti says:

    I just hate women who can not say NO and then blame men for abusing them.
    I feel embarrassed by that female behavior. really disgraceful to all of us who have understood that we create our realities by the choices we make or we do not want allow ourselves to realize that we make.
    Neo vivek… what a name!!. Adults are adults… therefore they create their lives… NO, babe, they are not children… that is a patriarchal- patronizing attitude. Everyone is responsible for him/ herself.

  539. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    Anthony , you really want to prove that you know it all , conveniently
    using Bhagwan (Osho), its amazing , that his people , not only do they tolerate, Ma . Meera but you , this is an amazing community , l must say they really are living in ”Choiceless Awareness” !

  540. Kranti says:

    ” Everyone is responsible for him/ herself ‘

    Thats is right.. You cant come to Osho and talk about freedom and awareness all the time and then get deceived by a guy like Prashantam and put all the blame on him.. Yes.. I do agree people like may be cunning enough and people can fall for few tricks..But at the end of the day who is responsible? If i get deceived by someone i am responsible..

    even in office i trsuted my boss blindly and he stabbed me from back to support somone close to him.. I am not blaming him as i am responsible for not being careful.. My responsibility increases many times when i am thrown into a more freer world / community like sannyas..

  541. Kranti says:

    Swami Pavitro (Hawai)

    With due respect to you i do feel Anthony is one guy who is very honest & direct .. not emotional about anything… who sticks to facts and that too based on his extensive research ..Normally I see him sticking to his own area of pshychotherapy and facts he came across about Osho / sannyas world

    He certainly brought lot of balance to this forum which otherwise was only seeing mostly emotional outbursts

  542. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    Yes Sw. Kranti , he is surely providing all the knowledge , for knowledge hungry people , like yourself (With due respect to you) , lam sure even Ma Meera will also agree to this

  543. Kranti says:

    I do understand what you are saying Swami Pavitro.. Knowledge / facts have their place Dont they? I personally find Anthony’s insights and knowledge very helpful in appreciating certain topis..

  544. Anand says:

    I agree *Garimo* and his name is *Prashantam*, sorry for the spelling error.
    I found the all of the feedback and reactions very interesting. I have no personal investment in this and anyway would not book any group with Prashantam.

  545. Shanti says:

    again this stupid thing of applying osho´s saying without considering the context he said the thing. he said knowledge was not useful in the search for an inner space, But he did not say knowledge was not useful.
    In fact osho was very knowledgeable.. otherwise he could have not speak for 35 years in all the topics he spoke. Anthony has the facts, the intelligence the research and the knowledge… it is juts like that. what to say…
    these stupid , ignorant, uneducated sannysins… it is a shame and embarrassment to us all.

  546. Shanti says:

    pavitro. do you think osho spoke so wonderfully and knew so much about so many subjects because he was enlightened?
    He was an educated man with Ms. ph.. University professor who read 14 books a week. If that is not getting knowledge I do not know what it is.
    Otherwise enlightened and all he would have been another baba, speaking like all the gurujies in India.

  547. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    Shanti , l think that Bhagwan, does not need guys like Anthony or for that matter any gay to say ” This kind of work has been called therapy in the world of Osho, but that is a wrong word. mostly because Osho himself could not tell the difference.” these gays how do they dare to say he (Bhagwan) is using a wrong word , when he (Anthony) does not understand the basic sense of ” Sannyas ” , thinks by giving his collected knowledge about pychology , he is welcome here or anywhere but that does not mean anything , l cannot express more than this

  548. Shanti says:

    Come on!! Pavitro. do you think Osho was god?!! he could not make mistakes?
    Osho made a lot of mistakes. If you are a little educated you can see that osho made comments about things he did not know much about… mu god.!!!

    Of course anthony knows more about psychology than osho… it is his profession.
    I know more about design than osho…

  549. Kranti says:

    Yes. Sometimes I am not sure where he gets lot of info from.. I am not saying he is untrue.. But he will go ahead and say things anyway ..

    What mattered to Him was the Schmuck who was sitting in the front..

    Infact the key differentiator for Osho had always been his extensive knowledge.. Otherwise like Shanti said he would have been one more saint from India..Nothing more… He knew how to keep us occupied for so long due to His knowledge and delivery style..

    I need to live with that fact and love Osho for the way he used the info..Not because he was accurate or true everytime..

  550. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    Yes my dear REMEMBER Bhagwan was also earning his bread by being ” Professor of Philosophy ”

  551. frank says:

    look guys
    anthony has made it pretty clear..
    osho therapists can shag anyone they want to,because they are not really therapists at all
    despite their activities being advertised as therapy.

    simple.

  552. frank says:

    according to you,tony,
    in the personal development paradigm,
    “the client is regarded as a fully self-responsible,free-choosing individual seeking a service.”

    then,later:
    people seeking(these kind of activities)are “normal neurotics”

    that definitly puts you squarely in the
    “make it up as you go along” “paradigm”

    half-assed gobbledygook semi-pseudo-science bent snake-oil salesman mumbo-jumbo.

    and that`s a generous appraisal.

  553. garimo says:

    Frank,
    if you want – we can call whatever it is you’re doing “therapy”.

    and if you would, would’ya please ‘splain the difference to me between “normal neurotics” and someone who is a “fully self-responsible,free-choosing individual”.

    I see different words describing the same thing. Maybe it’s because I’m just a uneducated street merchant in need of your service.

  554. Kranti says:

    ” the difference to me between “normal neurotics” and someone who is a “fully self-responsible,free-choosing individual”.

    I think Osho also referred to the normal people as ‘ normally insane ‘

  555. garimo says:

    Swami Pavitro,

    I see you are saving time by combining complaints about the Anthony’s and the gays into one? Very wise.

    I thinks thats why Osho created the gibberish meditation ‘therapy’… So we could cram all our complaining into one complaint and get it over with.

  556. frank says:

    garimo.
    to be honest,i haven`t got a clue.
    its all psychotherapeutic jabberwocky to me.

    i just like the rough and tumble of a good mental punch-up.
    that`s all.

    if you think what i am doing is “therapy”
    remember,
    firstly .it`s free
    second.you can bend over,and even wear a blindfold. whilst reading me with no risk whatsoever.

    you may be in need,but i will not “service” you,i promise

  557. garimo says:

    What?!
    no happy endings?

    It must really be therapeutic.

  558. Anthony thompson says:

    Frank. Garimo is right.
    People discribed as: “the client is regarded as a fully self-responsible,free-choosing individual seeking a service.”
    and
    people seeking(these kind of activities)are “normal neurotics”

    Is the same. I just rephrased myself in two different ways. that is all.
    Humanistic psychology in general does not deal with psychiatric of sick people. it deals with personal development, expansion of consciousness, inner growth etc.
    I am actually surprised by your ignorance… i might say.

    Therefore, a clarification:
    Normal people who do not suffer from psychological problems are called neurotics.
    Sick people are called psychotics
    and the ones who can function efficiently in society but are inefficient in dealing with other aspects of themselves are called borderline.

    Of course all these are conceptualizations and things are not black and white… but it is a good definition to start with and enlighten you a bit Frank

  559. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    yes Garimo , l made spelling mistake , l wanted to write guys , anyway lam not so good at elaboration, l do like to keep it short

  560. garimo says:

    All’s well Pavitro, I was jut playing around to amuse myself. I got your point and a smile from the twist at the same time… my spelling is so embarrassingly poor that almost always write where I have a spell checker and then cut&paste in the comment box. I’m neurotic in that way…

  561. Neo Vivek says:

    Shanti, “Neo vivek… what a name!!. Adults are adults… therefore they create their lives…”

    Yes, a poor choice, done the mistake once, dont want to do it twice by changing it ;)

    Getting back to the point. yes adults are adults and ofcourse they create their lives… but that is not the underlying issue here.
    Issue is, when adults, consciously or unconsciously find some skill missing in them; dont find themselves fitting in society … have read osho for years- more or less hypnotized by his words; take the leap to have a feel of his people, sannyasins… sometimes the ones like Prashantam; they get a rude, undesirable zen hit by getting exactly the attack they were trying to fix or learn to avoid on the first place!

    Yeah, they do get the message, you are on your own, but than why the deception of therapy and the illusion of sannyas community being there for them!!!

    Anthony, you of all the people know that one can justify anything and everything (mis)quoting osho or bible or bush or “to save the world” or “for the greater good philosophy” or in some cases ” i am a serial abuser, I AM JUST TRYING TO LIVE MY OWN TRUTH, NOTHING WRONG IN THAT, YOU GOT TO AGREE WITH ME, EVEN JUSTIFY MY ACTIONS philosophy~!”

  562. Prem Abhay says:

    Anthony you are in a psychosis and are demonstrating “reality judgement impediment”.

    Earlier on in the posts Meera says to Anthony:

    “keep on drinking the wine
    of a poor thirld world country…
    back in your old england
    or wherever you might be…”

    In the last line Meera is acknowledging that she does not know where you are from, and is not concerned about your current location or origin. However Anthony the brilliant professor follows with this:

    See, this is what I call “reality judgment impediment”.
    I am not a Brit drinking southamerican wine. I am Chilean. I am not white, I am a latino.

    Anthony this is called “reality judgment impediment”.

    Anthony also argues that the desire for enlightenment is just another desire. This is in tune with his nihilist approach to everything. This line of reasoning means that the desire to do good is no different to the desire to torture and murder. He also does not understand that the fundamental teaching of the Buddhas is that the desire to remove desire is the desire that burns all desire. Of course Anthony argues that ethics is a mental construct and therefore there is no difference between Osho and Hitler.

    Anthony also argues that because he attaches an incidental name to an approach to improving personal well-being, this means that the power dynamic is horizontal. If the relationship was simply of friend meeting and helping friend, then the helping friend would have by definition no specific and relevant conceptual framework to bring to the meeting. The very act of a person going to another for help who is offering a particular conceptual framework, and that conceptual framework is the reason for the two people meeting, means that by definition there is an inherent power imbalance.

    Why does Anthony argue the way he does? He is very intellectual, and this means that he can argue a point of view quite well, even to the point that many people of lesser intellectual capacity can be fooled by him. Others know that he is wrong, and that his views may be harmful, yet they can not argue with him on an intellectual level. This is also reinforced by the forceful and arrogant manner in which he debates. All this is well and good, but the essential motive is missing. Anthony is an intellectual whose only sense of reality is the endless reams of thoughts running around in is mind. Also, he is quite mature in age, and has therefore formed a cohesive (to him) belief system that is now deeply entrenched. He is not open to having his mind changed.

    Anthony also enjoys being in the position of intellectual superiority. Now he claims that because he is a professor – and therefore a therapist – his relating with clients carries an imbalance of power. Osho therapists, he argues, have not gone to the same type of educational institution as him, and therefore what they (believe they) have learned does not qualify for entering into a power imbalanced relationship. Anthony, do you think that these Osho therapists agree with you? They believe they have some sort of superior understand of psychological issues – whether through training or otherwise – and they are offering there services because of this. Most importantly, people seeking help go to Osho therapists in the same way that they would go to a clinical psychiatrist. There is no difference between you and Osho therapists in this regard. Of course there is a similarity: an arrogant and incorrect claim to intellectual superiority.

    Anthony your argument about psychological definitions also are unconvincing, yet you state them as if they reflect a simple fact, and if one disagrees they are either naïve or simply obviously wrong. If a person comes to another for help, then by definition that person is seeking help from the other person. The other person is presumably offering to help the person in need. Theoretically speaking, the helping person has the capacity and willingness to offer a service to a person who is currently needy in this regard. This difference is the essential reason for the relationship, and this difference means that the relationship is not horizontal. At the level of the issue in question (psychological well-being), the helper is saying that they are at a higher level than the person needing help. The same is with a physical imbalance of power. Man is strong than women and so until recently man has dominated women (as they still do in the Middle-East). Anthony would of course argue that the difference in physical strength is just a passing mental construct in a paradigm. Anthony you are out of touch with reality. This is called psychosis. There is little chance of you coming out of this delusion, so my suggestion is you go to somewhere like Iran or Afghanistan. There you will find lots of male chauvinists in power who may be willing to adopt you archaic and destructive view of the world. That way you can retain your precious and deluded mental constructs that are to you the whole world.

    Yahoo
    Abhay

    http://oshobuddhism.blogspot.com

  563. garimo says:

    ewhuuu… what’s that smell?

  564. chetna says:

    “Come on!! Pavitro. do you think Osho was god?!! he could not make mistakes?
    Osho made a lot of mistakes. If you are a little educated you can see that osho made comments about things he did not know much about… mu god.!!!”

    This must be making you feel so good, Shanti!

    Prem Abhay, you are right. Often comes a point when one sees no point in arguing one’s point.

  565. frank says:

    tony,
    you are just stung because you know that you got caught trying to propound the faudulent,self-serving claimthat the therapist has no power imbalance with the client.
    you know this is bogus and now you are just tryingt o bring the argument back to arguments about your spurious psycho-terminology that yourpeople have invented to try to make me look ignorant.

    you dont fool me at all.

  566. Kranti says:

    ” Anthony also argues that the desire for enlightenment is just another desire. This is in tune with his nihilist approach to everything. This line of reasoning means that the desire to do good is no different to the desire to torture and murder. He also does not understand that the fundamental teaching of the Buddhas is that the desire to remove desire is the desire that burns all desire. Of course Anthony argues that ethics is a mental construct and therefore there is no difference between Osho and Hitler. ”

    What Anthony said is absolutely right… The desire to get enlightened is another desire.. Buddha became enlightened when he dropped that final desire .. That is ineffect the disapperance of the individual

    People who want to play the game of spirituality and enlightenment only will convince themselves in the way Prem abhay is convincing himself

    Few people here are huirt by the insights Anthony has and not able to take it.. Infactit is no anthony who is arguing.. But others.. anthony made it clear what he said is within the context of a model..he never said it is apllicable to all contexts and situaions..People especially Frank seem to conveniently ignore that and generalising the arguement

  567. shantam prem says:

    THE NEW MAN
    is s. o who goes totally discontinues with the past…
    he will create communes
    and TOGETHER people will work
    independent from governements…

    alone one is not able

    it needs THE INTELLIGENZIA to change the world

    ´200 enlightened people are enough
    to change this world into a paradies´ osho

    Such thoughts are not even utopians any more. These thoughts are like wooden pots, once on the fire and dal and rice is cooked.
    Those who want to live with these 200 enlightend people´s communes, if they will ever exist, please leave your children with their grand parents, otherwise they will be exploited as Mormons used to do, this time not in the name of God and holy book but in the name of humanistic therapies and meditation.

  568. shantam prem says:

    Sometime people forget the fact that osho was using all these theapies as one uses the spices.
    His grace and also ambition was big enough to accomodate all kind of styles, techniques, methods and receipes.
    Tantra to Aura Soma, Shamanic healing to the Tibetran Pulsating healing, every thing was provided to enhance the experience of senses, mind or no mind.

    Now after His departure, everything is falling like the make belive world created by the Domino chips yet the vested interests born out of the effort of last 35 years are still pointing at the foundations built by His words.

  569. Kranti says:

    ” If a person comes to another for help, then by definition that person is seeking help from the other person ”

    I dont think we are talking about a ‘ help ‘ here.. Thats is simplifying the whole issue to suit the arguement..

    What we are concerned here is typical Therapist – Client relationship and the awareness of the client in the context of what we have is high.. There is no imbalance in those kind of situations as far as the model is concerned.. One bad apple does not make the all apples bad.

    If you see in India inspite of all requirements for therapy people dont even think about getting such solution and they live with the misery..They are not even aware what they are doing to themselves..

    In the west people are aware more as far as their issues & solutions are concerned.. They went thru required clean up and that is why west was more willing to embrace Osho than Indians..

    Indians simply imitated the west after Osho became popolur..Before that people were falling at Osho’s feet in the same manner they did with any saint / spiritual person guru.. I dont think Indians adopted to Osho the way the did later… But that is a by product of Osho produced with the help of westerners / westerner like Indians mainly

    So what Anthony talkig about is an aware individual..That awareness also includes knowing the limitations, weaknesses whatever it is ( male / female ) and choosing therapy / solutions which are not harmful..

    One doesnt go to therapist and then realise ” Ah! I am a female and i am weak infront of this male therapist and thats why he inserted his organ into me .. People who are aware dont wait until a Prashantam inserts his penis ..Thats ridiculous arguement..

    He was not talking about people who are desparet to throw some junk outside and who will do anything to get that.. even it means allowing the terapist to insert ..

    Anthony also made it clear that most of the so called people are NOt therapists.. It is general term used by outsiders not therapists themselves..

    I am very very surprised by the impatience shown by few to listen to what Anthony was trying to communicate and in what context.. Such a desparation to have general arguement & debate

  570. Anand says:

    Very good responses Abhay.

  571. frank says:

    also tony,
    you boasted earlier on the thread about having seen the “only for therapists” file in the therapy department of the resort.
    secret dossiers,only for the eyes of a special few.
    is this the way of open,horizontal,equal relationships?
    this sounds more like freemasonry than equal relations.

    the pro therapy types here remind me of cannabis and psychedelics users and dealers i have met,who stick feverishly to their belief that their drugs are a positive force for the world and dismiss and decry as ignorant,prudish and stupid any reminder of the not so pleasant possibilities of their drug of choice.
    they are just blinded by their own idenity and/or financial needs.

    pune 1.
    “horizontal relationships”and “equal” “humanistic”paradigms bla bla led to the therapist becoming ittle gods and sheela,the despot and her very un-horizontal gang takig over.

    just co-incidence?

  572. frank says:

    all animals are equal
    but some are more equal than others

  573. frank says:

    kranti,
    one moment you are saying
    “i don`t think it(therapy)is a matter of help here”
    then in your new article,you are saying “man needs help…urgent help”
    come on man.
    make up your mind.
    you dont seem to be able to decide whether you are a
    “fully self-responsible,free-choosing individual”
    or a
    “normal neurotic”

  574. Anthony thompson says:

    Wow. Ok. I do not intent to ” teach” here, but if people are ignorant, I need to create a frame where ideas can be understood, otherwise it is useless.

    Human beings, psychologists, therapists, counselors included work with conceptual models where they define they relation to what they call reality.
    Under these models, they use criteria to evaluate “pshomenay”. therefore reality is a representation of the evaluation of phenomena made by their conceptual models.

    we all work like this. and in this way we define good, bad, benefit, damage, pleasure, pain, agreeable, disagreeable, etc.

    What i have been saying is that nothing is universal and people should be compelled to be accountable by the conceptual models that they say to ascribe to.

    we can not judge osho with other guru´models. we can not say he was immoral for sleeping with his disciples and therefore abusing them , due to the obvious power imbalance due to the fact that disciples were looking for help; If osho himself admitted to do so and within his operational model that was considered appropiate.

    There is no universal ethics. ethics is a behavior regulator through agreement of a group of people within a certain context and moment in time.

    Humanist psychology produced something called facilitators, group leaders and counselors who did not use a clinical model based on the vertical medical model of relation, But a horizontal one where the “client”not patient was a free choosing- self responsible individual “employing” the service of the counselor. This has been called psychotherapy in osho´s world, but actually it is not.

    It was Osho who by mistake used the word therapy.
    The “osho therapists” in the beginning used the word counselling to describe their work. they called themselves group leaders, not therapists. in fact the first counsellor´s training offered in the ashram in 1977 was advertised using that name.
    But with time they begun also to use the word therapy specialty once they moved to then US- But technically speaking it is not

    why is not psychotherapy?
    first osho therapists in their majority have no degrees in psychology and are not psychologists. and you can only do psychotherapy if you are a certified psychologist.

    Of the famous osho therapist very few were psychologists. Only siddha, sudha amitabh, vasumati, krishnananda, wadud and waduda and Dutch amrito.

    teertha, somendra, rajen, turiya, karuna, kaveesha, veeresh, rafia, devapath, dhiren, radha, divya, kabir, parasad, anam, gambira, parashantam, ganga, poonam, sujan, sathiarthy, leela, aneesha, shakura. etc, etc.. and most of them are, were not psychologists.
    They were counsellors.

    second. They do not do diagnosis, or prescribe a treatment, or intent to ” cure” any psychological illness .

    they offer a growth group.

    i do not pretendt to make a blunt defense of any so called Osho “therapist”, but to supply the background information to understand that it is not about ruthless abuse, but about a different conceptual model.

  575. frank says:

    if those terms are equivalent……..
    then…
    “fully self-serving,freeloading individual”
    can be equivalent to
    “normal humanistic psychotherapist”

    with no problem at all.

  576. Anthony thompson says:

    frank please…
    “fully self-responsible,free-choosing individual”
    or a
    “normal neurotic”

    they are the same!! two different ways to explain the same…

  577. Kranti says:

    Frank..

    The point i was trying to make is , if anyone goes to therapy he / she is making a mature choice and they know where to draw the lines.. The very fact that someone recognizes the need for therapy indicates they understand the misery , the root cause.. The only thing is they need some methods to remove that misery / conditionings… I dont think people who cant think for themselves go to therapy

    The other category , In the name being heart oriented or devoted they avoids facing the inner. I dont call them aware people

    In the other article i am not talking about this group of people.. That is for larger mass.. They may not be aware of their unconcious patterns .. They may not even accept the need for therapy.. But if a cathartic method or meditation can reach them without the need for taking sannyas or being part of any commune it will be a great ‘ help ‘ for them..

    I am not talking about therapy-client relationship in my new thread..I am keeping in mind real life people while writing this.. people whom i see around in y daily life

  578. Shanti says:

    another intelligent post by anthony.
    There is nothing to say, so far he seems to be the clever one here… the rest just reacting from their own conditioning without realizing so. the guy explains things so well… it is true… what we call reality is an evaluation through our conditiongs…
    thanks anthony again.

  579. frank says:

    tony,
    you say:
    “humanistic psychology produced something called “facilitators”who subscribed the the horizontal model.”

    all just words,amigo.

    like politicians saying they are “servants of the people”
    just a new spiel to catch a new trend to meet new market trends.

    the power imbalancewas never, in truth, dismantled,just hidden.

    now you are close to admitting it.

    a good teacher learns from his students
    rather than berating them for their ignorance.

  580. Neo Vivek says:

    what Anthony thompson is doing is trivializing the complex.
    Sounds good to ears, relaxes the mind but is basically amnesia.

    Seems to me that Anthony is using his academic conditioning to escape reality or to acknowledge the complex nature of the topic and probably his own past.

  581. Shanti says:

    cone on guys! Anthony explained it well… I think i understood:

    Clinical psychology= Medical model. power in psychotherapist

    Personal development model= power in client

    clinical psychology= psychotherapy

    personal envelopment= counselling.

    it makes sense. we all knew they were not psychologists , they were human potential movement group leaders… come on prude ones! tear your cloths off!”!

  582. frank says:

    tony ,
    you say these,let`s call them people,for the sake of agreement,like veeresh are “technically”"counsellors”

    getting a bunch of people to jump about pretending to be rabbits, strip off and have an orgy or having a group masturbation is part of “counselling”?

    this is crazy stuff,like tripping on drugs.
    i did both.
    if you do it and find it positive or do it or not enjoy it,and find it negative,it is still predicated on the authority-based group psychology of the moment.

    you followed the leader.

    all that non-vertical stuff you are saying is just not how it was or is.

    that`s all i have been saying all along.

    you seem to constantly want to rationalise control all this with terminology and intellectuality.

    that`s your paradigm,i suppose.
    not mine.

  583. Shanti says:

    MY Frank. You follow the leader that YOU want to follow… or not?
    leaders have the power we give to them. no one can force you to follow anyone!
    Be a man!! you make your choices.!

  584. Anthony thompson says:

    Shanti is right. Leaders have the power given by the following. they have no other power.
    therefore choice remains with the individual.
    Veeresh is not a psychologist. he is a counsellor. although I could call him a therapist depending on the context. But technically he is not.

    Now the event you describe, calling it Crazy thing, could be argued to be method to deal with sexual repression. I do not know… but you do not seem to have been forced to do it, therefore it remains your individual choice. even if you have group pressure, still, it was you the one who gave in to the pressure. Therefore you made the choice to give in.
    You remnain fully responsible for yourself.
    Now, you may chicken out afterward and sat… That was crazy”!! they made me do it… but that is not assuming your responsibility for your elections.

  585. Shanti says:

    I did a group with Rajen at the ranch when i was 19. he asked me sleep with him after one session. i said no. and that was it.
    I am responsible for my choices. He was a hot shot “therapist” and I was someone in need and help, abhay,,, in need of self knowledge and needed help with that.

    and still I said no. why? because I am a free-choosing individual.
    next session he touched my breasts, I said no, he did not touched them again.
    Why did i say no? because I did not want to.
    am I a gifted, special girl? no, I just know how to put limits.
    did he have any power apart from the one I wanted to give to him… no.
    see… that is all the trip.

    Frank. there is no power besides the one I want to give… or not.
    You´ve been way too long in England… come to Barcelona… we are more relaxed here.

  586. Anand says:

    It is right and interesting Anthony that Osho group leaders. among them your list of all the ‘famous’ ones had no specific training or background in psychology, psychotherapy etc. I think that is why their standards are so low and they are not able to always act ‘professionally’.
    The professional standard at Osho Resort is even lower now. People running groups or giving sessions have very little training of any kind at all, with some exceptions.
    For these reasons the black sheeps can play master, abuse women etc. in a group situation without any repercussions. For Shanti all fair play, put down your robes and if not you are a puritan stuck in the middle ages. I personally find these exploitations disgusting.
    And even though Anthony uses very nice and polished language it sounds his personal positions are very clear and he has some vested interest to defend.

  587. frank says:

    my point,that i am surprised that you have both missed,is that to get such a scene happening,as i have described ,you would need to be not just a man in the street but a therapist or some other kind of guy with authority.
    more authority in the setting than the participants,agreed by all,for the purposes of the group

    humans are generally animals who work in groups with leaders.
    the consensuality/individuality is nothing like as clear cut as you are claiming.
    it cannot be neatly folded in words.
    no one forced me,true.
    also i didnt suggest it.
    i enjoyed but also felt uneasy.
    i never complained,but i didnt boast of it,either.
    so it`s not the same issue of choice as have a cup of coffee or not.
    i felt conflicting feelings about these events during and after,so did others i spoke to about it.altho` not many like to speak about these type of things.
    that was the result of the experiment.
    not all the group leaders were happily in agreement too,but,rank was what counted finally,of course.

    in your haste to have clear-cut truths—
    “leaders only have the power given by followers”
    “it`s all individual choice”
    laudable ideas that they may be,
    you miss many of the subtle shades of human experience.
    the collective side,for one.

    maybe that`s very “western”

    it seems you favour a very limiting kind of simplification of life.

  588. Anthony thompson says:

    Anand. do not put words in my mouth. I did not say they did not have a training in psychology.
    i said they had no degrees in psychology and no training in clinical psychology , which is quite different.
    they all had psychology training, but as counselors, not as clinical psychologists. and I have already made the difference clear.

    Carl rogers was the first one to make space for non psychologists to get training as facilitators or counselors in order to provide personal development environment for other people. This created in the late sixties a wave of people who trained, at esalen, university of Chicago, quaesitor en England and other places as counselors, group leaders.
    They were trained to help or assist people with growth processes and personal development, but not clinical psychological cases.

    Frank. What you say is right. It is more complex and it involves group agreements and social ways of control. However. the individual remains responsible.
    You can see Shanti´s case.

    During Pinochet´s dictatorship as a professor I had to face many decisions that risked not only feeling inadequate within a group, but a bullet to my head and still I made the choices to remain true to myself, which coasted me jail time.
    The group has no more power that the one the individual gives in.

  589. Kranti says:

    Frank you say ” i felt conflicting feelings about these events during and after ”

    While we talk about individuals having the choice to decide to do things it also includes things which they partially wanted to do or not fully inclined to do.. But that still says you decided to go ahead with it and its your decision.. The point here is are you aware enough to take the jump knowing limitations / risks ? Expecting perfect awareness / descions is not possible.. Regretting someting later doesnt mean you didnt take the right aware / right decision ..you decided what was right at the moment.. Am i right?

  590. Kranti says:

    ” The group has no more power that the one the individual gives in.

    Anthony this is where i tried to segragate the situation where a sannyasin choosing a certaion therapy kind of and a political situation where you risked taking a bullet to your head.. But that situation has clear imbalance..majot one at that … Once you include those situations in the current debate then the contextual meaning and the arguement regarding power imbalance loses meaning.. Then we do tilt towards the more general environment frank refers to..

    What do you think?

  591. Anand says:

    Groups at Osho Resort are now often ‘scripted’ and follow a prepared story
    line, exercise 1, 2 etc. People with no background in psychology etc. are handed over scripted group exercises, Self Love etc. and become instant group leaders. It is more like Kindergarten or pre school. Dance and movement exercises.
    Still the most important point is still alive and kicking, since all participants are asked to do Osho Dynamic Meditation, Osho Kundalini and to participate in the evening meditation. This always has been the main point of Osho: you can drop the group exercises and therapy, the important points are Osho meditations.

  592. Anthony thompson says:

    Kranti. i was trying to make a point that always choice is individual. even in cases where you may feel life threatening, as I did, I did not relinquished from my choice and I assumed such consequences.

    If an individual can make that in life threatening situations like I had, more over in the situations related to group experiences in personal development groups. that was my point.

    The main issue I have tried to address is that people can only be judged according to the ethical model they say to subscribe. that is all. And I have presented the conceptual model of humanist psychology and group leaders.

    Now Frank may not agree or believe in that model and that is his prerogative or argue that the model is wrong.

    But that is another matter.

    Anand, simply can not tell the difference between apples and oranges and uses the word ” professional” as an adjective, instead of a description , thinking that is a universal term, which indicates to me a lack of self awareness of his own meaning assigning system… and then we just can not communicate.

    Not because we disagree, like in frank´s case, but beacuse he is thinking in absolute terms… and I say, lets look at the operational model and see what is the value system within that model to judge what the person is subscribing to.

    I use the case of Osho´s sexual life because from a agreed model of sexual behaviors related to enlightened masters, they are not supposed to have sex with the disciples. But Osho did so, and admitted it bluntly…
    he never said to be a celibate… and he did not go a pub to get girls… so he shagged his disciples…

    Morality, ethics are social constructions. and they should be judged within the person´s model.
    Otherwise we become totalitarians… and that is bad in my personal model.

  593. Shanti says:

    My gosh, this guy Anthony is intelligent!!
    it makes the rest of us look like dummies in this forum.
    Anthony, seriously, thank you for being here with us.
    You bring our conversations to a whole new level.
    Actually, I understand my self better, after all these months of reading you…. and kranti… you are following his steps…

  594. frank says:

    tony,
    so you “chose” to go to jail?
    only in the context of others having power over you at the time.
    without their influence would you choose to go to jail?
    how on earth could you be responsible for all that story of fascism and corruption
    the roots of which will have been sown by other people even long before you were born,whom you never met…?

    your idea of total autonomy of the individual is an abstract idea generated by language,imo.
    this is not reality.
    we are a social animal.
    and part of the whole world.

    as a therapeutic excercise for the individual it is interesting and possibly learning-inducing to play the game of “totally responsible for everything that happens to you”.but as a description of how the world actually “is” and must always be,it is actually very dangerous

    the idea of responsibility for actions,as the whole doctrine of “free will” always has and always will favor the ones in already power,
    they will say those who cannot resist power simply are “asking for it” and creating it by their weakness.
    they deserve to be groped,kicked,stabbed,raped,gassed etc…..
    that`s probably what your man pinochet thought about the guys he got rid of.

  595. Anthony thompson says:

    Frank I did not choose to go to jail. It was a consequence. But I knew that would be a possible outcome of my decisions.
    And certainly I am not responsible for the dictatorship…but what I am responsible for is my attitude and response to it.

    But that is an extreme case. i do not pretend to apply this model to everything. the amount of coercion that happens during a military dictatorship is nothing compared to the peer pressure you describe. So deep down they are not comparable.

    Again, you need not agree with the model. i just explained how it worked.

  596. Anand says:

    Shanti: Anthony is intellectual, not intelligent at all in my opinion, since he could never make the small step of giving up his ego and become a disciple of Osho.
    Instead he choose he chose to keep his ego/ intellect intact and be the Osho scholar. So from my point of view, you are light years ahead in intelligence to him Shanti.

    Anthony writes: Osho shagged his disciples. Now that is a statement to meditate upon. Please give proof to us Anthony! Who did he shag and where and when?

  597. frank says:

    well yes,mindless shagging is definitely not comparable to being in jail.
    i can vouch for that.
    you are right there.

    but back to square one,maybe for the last time….

    your attempt to picture this humanistic psychotherapy,which i assume you yourself practice some form of,professionally,
    is not and never was a “deal amongst equals”,like buying a pizza or something in the manner you claimed.
    this,i have shown,was a misrepresentation on your part.

    like someone said.
    when you`ve got the message,hang up the phone.

  598. Anthony thompson says:

    Following the same line of reasoning..
    I post a question for you sannyasins:

    WAS IT ETHICAL FOR OSHO TO HAVE SEX WITH HIS DISCIPLES?

    IS THERE AN ABSOLUTE ANSWER.?

    DO WE HAVE TO DEFINE ETHICS?

    do we have to set if that ethics applies to an alleged enlightened being?

    Do we need to define it by context?

    He never had sex?

    he lied when he said he did?

    You see, all this questions lead to examining the ethical models we work.
    I still would like to hear the answer to the first question.

  599. Anthony thompson says:

    For Anand you seem to just be returning to this planet.

    A quote of Osho himself speaking about his sex-life. It is in The Last Testament, Vol. 1, 22 July 1985 pm in Jesus Grove, and goes like this:

    Q: HAVE YOU EVER BEEN CELIBATE?
    A: Right now I am celibate, but if my health gets better I am not going to be celibate. I have never been celibate. I do not do anything against nature. Right now I am celibate not because celibacy has any value, but just because I am sick. I don’t have any energy to make love to a woman and do all the gymnastics, no. I have enough energy to talk to my people, to talk to you. If I get healthy again, I promise you, I will not be celibate.

    Personal reports. he had sex with Greek mukta´s daughter, with Vivek, and prem sunshine.
    others are rumors
    so answer the question

    finally frank. it is not my misunderstanding. it is the books these guys wrote.

  600. Anand says:

    Anthony knows the answer to ‘how many angels fit on the top of a needle?’.
    While Shanti you and all of us opened ourselves up to Osho, said ‘Yes’ and allowed Osho pour himself into all of us.
    So Anthony still now cannot let go of his obsession with Osho, because he knows, he missed. He missed, because he choose his mind, his intellect over love.

  601. frank says:

    well forget the books and look around amigo.
    get a new paradigm.

    its a wonderful world

  602. Anthony thompson says:

    do not ridicule me Anand answer my question
    WAS IT ETHICAL FOR SOHO TO SLEEP WITH HIS DISCIPLES?

  603. Anthony thompson says:

    ANAND FOR YOU.
    In the same interview Osho said regarding how the women around him know he was not celibate ” many of them must have loved me. I must have loved them.
    q. Does it mean you had sex with them?
    a. certainly how do you love if you had do not have sex wityh them?
    and later he adds: ” I am really the blessed one: i do not know why, but women are always willing. I have never come across a woman who was not willing”.
    and finally he added: “But there are many women here in my commune, and that proves a very fundamental thing: that although I have loved so many women they are not jealous of each other”

    Last Testament, Vol. 1, 22 July 1985 pm in Jesus Grove,.

    so answer:
    WAS IT ETHICAL FOR OSHO TO SLEEP WITH HIS DISCIPLES?
    and I am a researcher… and a good one.

  604. shantam prem says:

    Personal reports. He had sex with …..Vivek….
    Anthony, you have a good research.

    Who else also has the sex with Vivek(late ma Prem Nirvano) as per your inofrmation and rumors.

  605. Anthony thompson says:

    rafia, jayesh, milarepa, amrito as devaraj… is it really necessary.
    I am the question answer boys. do not avoid it.
    WAS IT ETHICAL FOR OSHO TO SLEEP WITH HIS DISCIPLES?

  606. Shanti says:

    These guys are sissies,
    I will answer
    Yes, it was ethical. because within his ethical model that was OK.
    see.. I am a quick learner!
    these male sannyasins are cowards

  607. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    Ma.Shanti , probably Anthony should open an ashram with Kranti & you & then you all can have a threesome

  608. Anand says:

    Anthony, Vivek (Nirvano) was his partner as you know. Muktas daugher was a drug addict in Pune 1, so I have not talked to her for a quite while.
    The rest of the interview is up to interpretation. In those interviews at Rajneeshpuram Osho liked to poke fun at the questions of the journalists.

    So from my point of view, you would need real proof and then put up the question.

    Maybe send another of your emails to Amrito.

    All there is to know in my opinion is to ‘Know Thyself’.

  609. Shanti says:

    pussy!! you area avoiding the question Anand.

    and what is all that crap with ” if you have not surrendered to the master… you do not see the light” kind of thing? are we in the middle ages?
    answer the question for gods sake!!

  610. Shanti says:

    shantam.. at least you answer the question….

  611. Anthony thompson says:

    I have posted the question to force you to examine your own value system. which is the base of all my previous arguments.

    But apart from Shanti, the reaction is quite expected for people who share a belief system. absolute refusal to examine its own values,
    so, as a final intent..

    WAS IT ETHICAL FOR OSHO TO SLEEP WITH HIS DISCIPLES? ( by the way, vivek was a disciple)

    let as see who dares to self-examine… and give a straight answer… without beating around the bush.

  612. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    WHO CARES Anthony

  613. Shanti says:

    pussyyyy!!!

  614. Anthony thompson says:

    … but you do care if “osho therapists” do…mmmhhh?
    double standard ethics here.

  615. shantam prem says:

    When i have asked the question about Vivek, it was not from the moral point of view but more as a biography.

    I was and i am still utterly happy about all the things happening around Osho as far as experimentation with sex and emotions are concerned.
    There are one or two things which i felt were done in a bad way, and this i am trying to feel from many angles before i spit it out.
    Educated adults were playing with their life, Ashram was more than a Dynamic, Kundalini and kirtan.
    17, Koregaon Park has seen so many relations getting made and broken in the spirit of meditation.

    If i complain it is about the double value system which has entered the main stream in the last few years.

  616. Kranti says:

    I totally agree with Frank on that point that the ‘idea of total autonomy of the individual is an abstract idea ”

    Thats why i restricted myself the context in which the individuals autonomy is not undermined or impacted .. I presume individuals had autonomy in Osho world.. Thats is the basis on which the discussion can happen. If the individual had no autonamy and subjected to coercison then we can not talk about choice

    Think Anthony has also accepted that the situations are not comparable by stating

    ” do not pretend to apply this model to everything. the amount of coercion that happens during a military dictatorship is nothing compared to the peer pressure you describe. So deep down they are not comparable.”

  617. Anthony thompson says:

    I will take that as… it was ok he has sex with disciples.
    ok, not so straight, but an answer… at least

  618. shantam prem says:

    WAS IT ETHICAL FOR OSHO TO SLEEP WITH HIS DISCIPLES?

    OR Do Osho had sex?

    As an Indian i have heard similar question thousands of times. People have stoped me in the buses, in the trains, my professors and fellow students in the university, relatives and when i was taking ashram tours for years.

    With whom so ever Osho had sex or he was saying to provoke people, it does not diminsh his value and his contribution to the spirit of experimentation with life energy.

    I hope this tradition continues.
    For sure, there is always a danger of misuse but over all, rules of the games were maintained by most of us and with this spirit when we run the ashram, it will be positive contribution to the life.

  619. Kranti says:

    Anthony Let me take the right to answer your question although you did not address that to me

    To one part of me it is difficult to accept Osho had sex with disciples. Even if he had , does it take away anything Osho contributed.. I dont think so.. and thats is very important for me. He didnt preach one thing and did another thing

    But to be honest i dont take Osho’s answers at face value.. As i said he often says things to hit the person sitting infront of him.. He always said things which will unsettle people and I sincerely think He would not have done all things he said he did

    One more thing which i am trying to understand is the need for Sex and relationship for a really enlightened master.. In my current understanding since enlightenment is the disappearance of the ‘ person ‘ the need for seeking fulfillment through sex and relationship will also end.. In that context i think Osho would not have such a need assuming he was really enlightened.

    The so called enlightened teachers of today put forward a a view that sex may still continue to happen purely as physical act and not as a pshychological need. I personaly dont accept that. Most of these people had brief awakening or satori kind of thing and they are back to normally insane mode . In that mode they have sex but convince themselves that they are doing it only for physical needs like hunger not psychological needs.

    Somewhere i have heard Osho explain the need for sex as purely psychological / mental . It is something like … Animals have an act which is for re-producion. Humans have converted that into a pleasure trip as and when they want.. It is actually ‘ mental ‘… So a truly enlightened will not have a need for sex.

  620. Anthony thompson says:

    Thank you Kranti for an honest answer. That was exactly what i had expected: an examination of ones own values. you are Indian, an of course the matter of sex and enlightenment is more difficult to accept to due to shared values regarding enlightenment.
    And that is exactly what I was trying to demonstrate. that values are contextual agreements.
    In the west if osho had sex may be a lesser topic of stress because of our own cultural context.

    Personally, due to my research i would think he did have sex… not so much as he bragged about… but he did say he was the first enlightened man to admit that. and he added, “If sex is good before enlightenment, once you are enlightened you enjoy it even more”.

  621. Kranti says:

    ” ith whom so ever Osho had sex or he was saying to provoke people, it does not diminsh his value and his contribution to the spirit of experimentation with life energy.”

    I totally agree with Shantam here.

  622. Kranti says:

    Anthony you say ” that values are contextual agreements.”

    Just to deviate here , i think almost everything in a human – not only sex – is contexual / conditioned.. it is the basis from which unique identity is derived.. Without that conditioning which is not only unique to societies , even more unique to individuals what is left is life energy operating every moment through a body-mind organism.. We hold on to things like ‘ ethics ‘ as they are part of the identity , not because there is inherent value in them or something like that .. There is no such thing as inherent value too..

  623. Kranti says:

    I meant ” Just to deviate here from the topic of sex ..”

  624. shantam prem says:

    There is one more paragraph after the paragraph you agree with me.
    I wish to write it again.

    I hope this tradition continues.
    For sure, there is always a danger of misuse but over all, rules of the games were maintained by most of us and with this spirit when we run the ashram, it will be positive contribution to the life.

    Sex and love exchange still happens in the resort but less with the spirit of exploration and more with the impulse of self gratification.

    I wonder why we are afraid to stand with our legacy in its totality.

  625. Anthony thompson says:

    To end this part of the discussion, the ethics of enlightened Indian cosmo-vision is understandable if you are from Indian conditioning… but trying to apply it to Sweden would be strange , to say the least.
    The same with the psychology stuff…
    no I got tired… so long.

  626. shantam prem says:

    When Osho gave us the tool of sex, love and relating, the hidden challanges were more powerful than the obvious benefits of easy catch.

    I still remember that Chai after that Dynamic was sweeter and tastier, when i have seen a night before “my” girl friend going out with someone else.
    And i think most of us can relate with such everyday happenings, when mystery school was more than a resort.

    As far as just meditation is concerned, in any city there are more meditation centres than the Pizza shops.
    Poona must maintain its distinguish taste, the original Osho style.

  627. Kranti says:

    ” When Osho gave us the tool of sex, love and relating, the hidden challanges were more powerful than the obvious benefits of easy catch ”

    Very true ..The hidden challenge is to enjoy but go beyond.. Which we never come to terms with..

    Recently i read a Buddhist vision which is somewhat of opposite of what Osho said.. That vision says you can never go beyond desire by indulging in desire as it creates more lack. Not sure about it.. But it may have its truth when i see lot of individuals including me struggle to actually go beyond..

  628. Kranti says:

    f you guys are done with this topic please do post in the new thread which i started more as a open question.. I would like to see a discussion how much communes and sannyasins are relevant & significant today ..from an individual point of view.. Whether Osho will do well without those boundaries..Is there a essential Osho who can reach everywhere without any reference to communes and sannyasins..? Lookig forward to some discussion there.. Thanks for everyone.. This thread saw deep thinking..

  629. Satya Deva says:

    Chetna wrote:
    Some people are vulnerable and good psychotherapists can abuse their power very easily.

    For me, Chetna’s nailed it there.

    OK, we’re all responsible for our choices, whether we go to a clinically-trained psychotherapist or a ‘mere’ therapist-cum(!!)-counsellor’…

    But there’s such a thing as a collective ethos, as in Poona 1 and after, together with the ‘alpha male’ high status enjoyed (and exploited) by certain male therapists, which were very powerful forces confronting vulnerable people, who would all the more easily succumb to sexual pressure.

    Basically, it’s a matter of the vulnerable being exploited by the people to whom they looked for help, care and healing.

    Has Anthony or his supporters never heard of ‘transference’, for example?!

    These ‘explanations’ by Prof. Thompson strike me as being little more than rationalisations for what was really a form of abuse – abuse of power and status.

  630. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    ” but you do care if “osho therapists” do…mmmhhh?
    double standard ethics here.” Anthony dont try to act smart by putting words in my mouth , l never said that , this is exactly what
    smart guys do try to outsmart everyone, by the way lam sure have had a good time , thanks to Bhagwan & his people

  631. Anand says:

    Anthony/ Shanti: I have no information about this and cannot answer this question. Although I have lived in Pune all these years, this question never came up. When I arrived in Pune in 1975 Vivek was already by Osho’s side
    and lived in Lao Tzu House.
    My initial question came from the alleged abuse of Osho Therapists of young blind folded Russian women in a group situation. It ended up with your question about Osho.

    Personally I do not care much about this, when two grown up people having consensual sex together, it is not of my business – enlightened or non-enlightened. I grew up in the sixties and our generation started the sexual revolution and we were all part of sex, drugs and rock n’roll.

  632. Prem Abhay says:

    Unlike what Kranti and Anthony like to argue, there is no inherent contradiction in desiring to remove desire. The theory is that after all other desires are removed the one remaining desire need also be dropped. To reach this point a person is virtually egoless and virtually free of desire.

    Kranti you say Frank is generalising and Anthony is applying a specific model to a specific context. What right does Anthony have to chose who is in and out of this model? Does he have the right to say that his model applies to all people that visit Prashantam?

    And since I am talking about Anthony, has anyone noticed and absurd contradiction that he is unknowingly accepted? When Swami Rajneesh played a joke on him pertaining to intelligent debate, and not sex, with his girlfriend, Anthony went of the rails. He completely freaked out, and even if later on when Swami Rajneesh finally explained the joke to him (because he did not get it), Anthony still remained off the rails. He had gone down the wrong road. If he were to accept the obvious situation he would have to look like a fool. This is the same as Frank’s reasoning that Anthony is trying to defend the neutral power argument that is devoid of common sense.

    Now that we know that Anthony likes to have open relationships – which include not telling the beloved about a possible open encounter – one wonders why even if Swami Rajneesh was offering to sexually satisfy his girlfriend, why would Anthony object at all? This all seems very strange, unless I assume that Anthony is insane.

    Kranti your response “Nov 14, 2009 at 10:25 am” is full of inconsistencies, contradictions, and lies.

    Frank have you gone bananas? Is it not obvious that the phrase “normal neurotic” is not obviously an oxymoron, unless you are an insane intellectual who is actually a moron (normally).

    Anthony you do not intend to teach, you intend to tell. Your approach of creating conceptual frameworks for different psychological approaches is simply done to justify your argument. If you have any chance of coming out of this one with any trace of credibility, you need to address the issues rather than framing your position with big words and then saying this is how it is.

    What you really need is a year in a gulag. Then when you come out (assuming of course you survive), I will ask you if you whether you enjoyed the experience, whether you suffered at all, and whether what happened to you was wrong.

    Anthony if I say that I am entering into a horizontal relationship, this does not make it horizontal – unless I am lying down with your girlfriend while you are enjoying your cup of tea. I assume you are not going to go off the rails here?

    Now I understand Anthony entirely. You have to have a degree to have a vertical relationship with someone. This is your intellectually arrogance and blindness Anthony. You would do well to have a good look at this one. It is your primary issue.

    Kranti you say that people who go to therapists are making a “mature” choice. In a previous idiotic thread you referred to these people having the quality of “awareness” to guide them. Now I also understand you. People that go to therapists are mature aware and enlightened, while the therapists are fruit-loops. Although it is probably not quite right, it is closer to the truth than you think.

    Kranti and Anthony should go dig a Gurdjieff ditch with Prem Bubbie whipping them whilst drinking a bottle of cognac.

    Shanti you are a women who is in your power and is also fully comfortable with sexual issues. Obviously if you were to meet Prashantam on a one to one basis the relationship would be either balanced or (more likely) you would be the one in power. What you fail to understand is that most people who come to a therapist (especially a young women to an older man) are not like you.

    Frank have you gone more bananas? Quite obviously the leader is not in authority. The clients to the leading and the group leader is hypnotised into thinking he or she is intelligent. I think I understand now.

    Shanti yes we can choose a leader. What you do not get is that once chosen, the power dynamic can be that we are caught. You do not get this. I will give you a simple German rather than Spanish example. The German crowd elected Hitler. He then created an army and quashed the German peoples freedom. In a group situation, or one to one with a therapist, the situation can very easily lead into a space where the client(s) has little power. They are vulnerable and can be coerced. They may go through a process without seeming to object, and then come out of the process feeling distraught and shocked and manipulated. I remember an old female sannyasin that said to me that it was not that she was raped in all the sexually encounters. It was that she raped herself. Yes Shanti we have individual choice and responsibility and intelligence; yet relationships involve more than one individual, and power imbalances are real and not just physical.

    Anthony is right because he is right. Shanti is right to say Anthony is right. Anthony says Shanti is right in saying she is right that Anthony is right to claim that he is rightfully smart about what is anyhow obviously right to the righteous.

    Shanti you said no to the hot shot therapist because unlike many other people you a firmly in your power. How many women that this hot shot therapist asked were firmly in their power? And remember this Anthony, this hot shot therapist is the leader, the authority figure, the person in power – even if (wrongly) it be said that the clients gave all the power to him. A leader is in their power else they would not be able to lead. Of course if they then attract followers there power then expands. This becomes the drug of choice of the power tripper. The power tripping therapist, especially in group process, becomes very powerful (literally). Then when they ask the clients to have sex with them there is a tremendous power imbalance. This creates an atmosphere of fear, coercion, control, and dependency. This way the client keeps coming back and the therapist becomes not only powerful, but also very rich. Is that you Anthony?

    Yes Anand thankyou for pointing out the only positive to come out of Anthony’s stupidity. Therapists trained at the Osho International Meditation Resort, Pune, INDIA, should not be allowed to therapies anyone for they lack the credibility of training at a reputable institution.

    Yes Ananda it is funny that free love Shanti shall defend mind fucking Anthony.

    Frank you have definitely gone bananas trying to reinforce your basic point. When I come to a group to do a group and there is a person sitting out the front wearing a black robe and telling me about things and to do things, they are actually not in charge. The person beside you is actually the one in authority, and is taking all your money. Frank what you fail to understand is that it is all in the linguistics.

    The very concept of communism is based on the idea of a meeting of hearts: people helping each other and contributing and creating what they best can to the common good. Communism failed – and this includes in all of Osho’s communes – because people failed to understand the will to power of some individuals. People like Sheela and Jayesh used this type of genuine communing to their own gain by pursuing power over the gathering. This is the same with Stalin in communist Russia or Chairman Mao in China.

    Anthony is like Stalin or Mao claiming that they are just the wise shepherd for the betterment of the flock: the real power lies with the ignorant masses. This is the deception that lets those who desire power for their own ends to take charge, ruin peoples lives, and live drunk an all consuming power.

    Anthony you fail to understand the key point about Pinochet. He is the individual that had power of you and your group. In a subtle sense your nation gave him the power. In another sense he took it. While he was in power he was not in a horizontal relationship with either you or your sheep.

    Kranti in your segregation and context argument you fail to understand that the power that people wield over others is the overlapping issue.

    Anthony you exercised your choice. Pinochet exercised his choice to put you in jail and not put a bullet into his head. Do you see the power imbalance?

    Yes Frank, Anthony argues his points, yet by his own examples his theories become quashed. The thing is there a people like Shanti who do not get this, and so the obvious needs to be explained. Of course hopefully not everyone is as self-absorbed as Shanti.

    Anthony, based on you interviews, you come to believe it to be true that Osho slept with lots of his disciples. Other than your intellectual arrogance, you other primary blind spot is your tendency to believe what others tell you. It is here interesting to point out that this tendency one important factor that creates the non-horizontal relationship between ‘therapist’ and client.

    That was my straight answer to your bush hiding stupidity. So funny that Anthony thinks everyone else (other than Shanti) is beating around the bush. What a laugh.

    Anthony in your next post your changed from arrogant surety of Osho’s sexually endeavours to saying ‘personally I think’. This is the kind of contradiction that makes me think you have a serious fissure in your personality.

    Lastly I am a banned Osho sannyasin. I exercised my freedom and the people who are currently in power exercised their authority to kick me out. Of course this is a horizontal relationship isn’t it.

    All this intellectual waffle and the truth is so simple – too simple for self-serving intellectual rapists.

    Yahoo
    Abhay

    http://oshobuddhism.blogspot.com

  633. Anand says:

    Abhay, you sometimes blow my mind. Thanks for your last report.

  634. garimo says:

    Three ants met on the nose of a man who was lying asleep in the sun. And after they had saluted one another, each according to the custom of his tribe, they stood there conversing.
    The first and said, “These hills and plains are the most barren I have known. I have searched all day for a grain of some sort, and there is none to be found.”
    Said the second ant, “I too have found nothing, though I have visited every nook and glade. This is, I believe, what my people call the soft, moving land where nothing grows.”
    Then the third ant raised his head and said, “My friends, we are standing now on the nose of the Supreme Ant, the mighty and infinate Ant, whose body is so great that we cannot see it, whose shadow is so vast that we cannot trace it, whose voice is so loud that we cannot hear it; and He is omnipresent.”
    When the third ant spoke thus the other ants looked at each other and laughed.
    At that moment the man moved and in his sleep raised his hand and scratched his nose, and the three ants were crushed.

    -Khalil Gibran

  635. shantam prem says:

    Oh My God.. Abhay, you have written with a superior command.

    May be we can look in this way too that after coming in contact with Osho, books and meditations and moreover His people, how much sharpened we all have become in our own way.

    As Osho´s branch of action is not connected with gross domestic product (GDP) but certainly gross domestic intelligence(GDI) has increased continuously for the last 4 decades, in spite of the decade long recession due the closed windows policies.
    It means when the policy of minimum interference is imposed and the programming developed and cultivated by Osho is again in the picture, we all can take the next level of development.

  636. Kranti says:

    Anand , Shantam Common.. What did you find in Abhays post.. he didnt even understand what the discussion was.. he jumped in late and started calling people as idiots and mind fucking.. It is not very typical of him.. He used to be more reasonable in his earlier posts.. He lost himself in too much rubbish this time..

    ” To reach this point a person is virtually egoless and virtually free of desire.”

    there is no such thing as one desiring and reaching. even a Buddha did not.. Osho told us 1000 times the individual can not reach with the help of desire and seeking.. Perhaps Abhay things he is more evolved than Osho and Buddha

    ” When Swami Rajneesh played a joke on him…. ”

    This is the most ugliest aspect seen on this forum… the fact was Rajneesh lost control and said something very bad.. Later he justified it..He was all over the place.. It was a pathetic show by Rajneesh and others to defend linen which had already been washed in public..

    This is the example

    ” one wonders why even if Swami Rajneesh was offering to sexually satisfy his girlfriend, why would Anthony object at all? This all seems very strange, unless I assume that Anthony is insane.”

    just because Anthony expressed free views about sex Abhay is suggesting this most disgusting thing… Shame..

    Even more

    ” Yes Ananda it is funny that free love Shanti shall defend mind fucking Anthony.”

    Even more

    ‘ Kranti and Anthony should go dig a Gurdjieff ditch with Prem Bubbie whipping them whilst drinking a bottle of cognac.”

    Yes it was mind blowing Anand.. It was..Ridiculously low level of attack without touching one sensible point

  637. Kranti says:

    If Anthony doesnt accept Rajneesh offer to satisfy his girlfriend then Anthony must be insane.. Ah!!!. Mind blowing …. Really .. Superior command like what Shantam said. Disgusting low quality post we have seen in the last few months

  638. shantam prem says:

    You are also very right Kranti and the same is about Anthony and Shanti too.
    For me it is a sense of joy, when differerent streams, colors, thoughts, points, world views create a jungle of life.
    A botanical park not just a rose garden.

    May be to write “superior command” is quite too much, one can always change the fonts, modify the sentences, one can always bring the festivity back.
    Do someone knows whether resort will celebrate Osho´s birth day or Nirvano´s 20th untimely death annivarsery. I think her celebration is over due.

  639. Satya Deva says:

    Prof. Anthony has continually asked whether it was “ethical” for Osho to have had sex with his “disciples”.

    Simple and blindingly obvious answer is yes – assuming that it was an act of love, not lust.

    Fair chance of that being the case, would you say, Anthony?!

    Using the same criterion for the therapiosts, group leaders, however, might well produce a very different conclusion.

  640. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    Kranti ,l observed (reading your comments , sorry for this judgement ) you dont seem to know whether you are coming or going , l do sincerely hope you do get it , you seem to be one person who gets carried away in all directions , you seriously need to be with a live master .

  641. Kranti says:

    ” you seem to be one person who gets carried away in all directions ‘

    Sw Pavitro..One of my effort here is to understand differenr perspectives rather than sticking to my views only. So I may give you an impression that I am not consistent.. But personally I dont think i have that problem.. I am alright in being judged..We all do that all the time.. Thanks.

  642. Kranti says:

    ” you seriously need to be with a live master ”

    Sw Pavitro.. I do accept this.. I trust Osho when he says it will happen when the time is right.. But When i look at people who lived with Osho I understand what seems to be important in one’s receptivity ..Master can only be a help.. So many people seem to have missed Osho completely inspite of living with him..So i am not unduly worried about it..It is not in my hands

  643. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    Heraclitus & Sw.Abhay amazing insights

  644. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    Sorry , Heraclitus has written beautifully in the next discussion.

  645. chetna says:

    Great show! I really enjoyed reading.

    I agree with Frank and like many points of Prem Abhay.

    Anthony with this Q about Osho’s sexual life you sound like Peter at the gates to heaven.

    I personally hope Osho had sex with women-lucky beings! I would have definitely gotten in the queue if ever was given the chance. If Osho liked tea before enlightenment, would he have to stop drinking tea after enlightenment?

    Kranti, why to have a problem? Krishna is globally excepted for his “behaviour”. So why not Osho. And of course, I also cannot imagine Osho behaving like a teenager or Prashantam who cannot get enough!

    Sex is sex, enlightenment is enlightenment. But the therapist using his tricks to use women for sex in the name of spiritual growth is sad.

    Shanti, sorry, but it seems to me you have very little female/passive energy in you. Hence, no understanding from your side.

    And by the way, all that hard work put out by Anthony I find simply useless. Therapy or counseling is all pile of rubbish that does not work!

  646. shantam prem says:

    Chetna
    Feel lucky you did not have sex with Osho.
    Anthony can tell from the history books of Osho movement, what happened with the women who supposedly slept with Osho.

  647. Anthony thompson says:

    Abhay, your impossibly long posts are a torture to read.
    It would be easier if you would say. ” anthony, I do not like you because you do not like rajneesh and you like the resort”. you would save me a lot of reading. Your points are not even worth discussing.
    To say that because I have an open relationship I should accept rajneesh´s obscene comments about my partner, is ridiculous… to say the least.

    All I did was to give a background information about the humanistic-transpersonal conceptual model and invite reflection on ethics.

    I appreciate a discussion with an intelligent nemesis. So, far since Andreas Roth left the forum , Frank is the only one who comes close to him.

    You may write long posts… and Ii read them in the hope to be stretched and challenged… but I am left with nothing but rhetoric arguments.

    therefore I do not have anything new to say really.

  648. Shanti says:

    Chetna… are you russian?
    You ask such strange questions. who told you that to be a woman means to be passive?
    That is just a patriarchal ideology.
    Should I be soft and submissive?
    come on!

  649. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    You know what Anthony , what is your self (psychological )analysis, if l may ask you , lam sure all here would like to know

  650. Shanti says:

    Pavitro… you can not even answer a straight question from anthony… and now ask a vague question yourself. Don´t be a pussy and ask directly what you want to ask.

    Anthony, sorry, but here anyone can come… you know.

    I almost feel sorry for the amount of knowledge and wisdom that you are wasting here.

  651. shantam prem says:

    Shanti,
    Why to feel sorry for Anthony, one can feel proud too that not even being so called initiated disciple, he takes passionate interest in the work.
    Difference of opinions apart, he is doing a wonderful job of sharing.
    Same is about all of us, when many of the people are just copying and pasting the material from His discourses at facebook.( it takes me five minutes everyday to delete this unwanted wisdom)
    few are daring to bring their understanding how so ever faulty it may be, and that too without proclaiming better and holier than the other.

  652. shantam prem says:

    Just came in mind to Ask Abhay, what is so significant that you as Abhay, the environmental scientist from Australia, find so special in Rajneesh, may be, the desire to have a living master from the lineage of Osho or is some another reason?

  653. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    Shanti , looks like you like this word ” pussy ” , and , it seems you unconciously want him to be a ” pussy ” lam sure he can speak for himself

  654. Anthony thompson says:

    Shanti. Pavitro is right i do not need anyone to defend me or speak for my self. I am my own man.
    However, Pavitro could you be a bit more specific with your question?
    .It is too broad to give you a good answer. So, what would you like to know?

  655. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    Anthony , let us know what is your self analysis on your role in the the whole Osho movement , and l hope this is specific enough

  656. Anthony thompson says:

    More than self analysis i can tell you that It is my passion osho and his disciples. i have dedicated 23 years of research and experimentation.
    I am fascinated by the phenomena.
    More than fulfilling a specific role, I see myself enjoying the journey. I enjoy discussing in forums. i enjoy defending Osho , when is necessary , clarifying mistakes if it is needed.
    I feel proud of my knowledge about this subject and I have put that knowledge to what i consider good use.
    I am the only one who has taken the time and energy to refute Christopher Calder.
    http://truthaboutosho.blogspot.com/

    Therefore I do not know about role, but i can tell you about intrinsic motivation: curiosity, pleasure, entertainment and pride and growth.

  657. Satya Deva says:

    Satya Deva // Nov 15, 2009 at 11:37 am

    Prof. Anthony has continually asked whether it was “ethical” for Osho to have had sex with his “disciples”.

    Simple and blindingly obvious answer is yes – assuming that it was an act of love, not lust.

    Fair chance of that being the case, would you say, Anthony?!

    Using the same criterion for the therapiosts, group leaders, however, might well produce a very different conclusion.

    Prof. Anthony, you might have missed my question (above) as originally it didn’t get through (away from home computer).

    Any thoughts, please?

  658. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    Anthony , lam sure everyone is still awaiting for your reply , you do seem to be a star here !

  659. Satya Deva says:

    Satya Deva // Nov 14, 2009 at 9:50 pm

    Chetna wrote:
    Some people are vulnerable and good psychotherapists can abuse their power very easily.

    For me, Chetna’s nailed it there.

    OK, we’re all responsible for our choices, whether we go to a clinically-trained psychotherapist or a ‘mere’ therapist-cum(!!)-counsellor’…

    But there’s such a thing as a collective ethos, as in Poona 1 and after, together with the ‘alpha male’ high status enjoyed (and exploited) by certain male therapists, which were very powerful forces confronting vulnerable people, who would all the more easily succumb to sexual pressure.

    Basically, it’s a matter of the vulnerable being exploited by the people to whom they looked for help, care and healing.

    Has Anthony or his supporters never heard of ‘transference’, for example?!

    These ‘explanations’ by Prof. Thompson strike me as being little more than rationalisations for what was really a form of abuse – abuse of power and status.

    Again, Anthony, I note you haven’t responded to the above (again, perhaps because the post was passed late).

    So, any comments, please?

  660. shantam prem says:

    May be the paragraph belowtaken from Wapedia fits with the continuous discussion.

    The will to power (German: “der Wille zur Macht”) is a prominent concept in the philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche. The will to power describes what Nietzsche believed to be the main driving force in man; achievement, ambition, the striving to reach the highest possible position in life, these are all manifestations of the will to power.

    Alfred Adler incorporated the will to power into his individual psychology. This can be contrasted to the other Viennese schools of psychotherapy: Sigmund Freud’s pleasure principle (will to pleasure) and Victor Frankl’s logotherapy (will to meaning).

    Somehow, we all can feel thankful to Osho that his presence provided the spiritual umbrella to the three main needs of power, pleasure and meaning.

  661. Anthony thompson says:

    I answered, but for a strange reason it did not get posted. i do not know what happened. perhaps it will appear later. So, there is the answer to Pavitro. so lets wait

    Satya deva. thank you for answering my question about osho and sex.
    We can see with you an interesting paradigm, ” yes – assuming that it was an act of love, not lust.”

    So if there is love, then it is OK. do we mean romantic love? or love for human kind?

    But what if he got horny… say, he looked at Maneeshsa´s breasts and got aroused. will that be ok? will it be ok to sleep with her only because he was sexually aroused? Teertha used to say that osho slept with maneesha. Of course I do not know if that is true.

    what is interesting is to see that all of us, me included, operate with these paradigms or conceptual models. And we are accountable for our behaviors in that way.

    I understand what you say. regarding abuse . it is the psychoanalytical and cognitive-behavioral paradigm in psychology.
    You seem to not make a difference between a clinical psychotherapist and a facilitator or counselor. But the difference is enormous.

    counselors do personal development NOT psychological treatment. They do not work with psychological issues defines in the DSM_III. ( manual of mental disorders)
    tThey are what today is called coaches.
    so vulnerable people. assuming someone with deep emotional issues, should not go to a group leader, but a psychiatrist or psychotherapist.

    Therefore, the work of personal development is addressed to healthy neurotics, or normal neurotic or free-choosing, self responsible individuals… it all means the same.

    Transference is a psychoanalytical term. It does not belong to humanistic psychology.
    Or we could say all relationships are subject to transference, including the master- disciple relationship.

    That is the model. Now, nowadays in pune the rules are quite strict regarding the relationships between facilitators and group participants. why? because the paradigm changed in 17 koregaon park. therefore the shared values changed.
    Is it respected’ does it work? i do not know.

  662. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    ”I answered, but for a strange reason it did not get posted. i do not know what happened. perhaps it will appear later. So, there is the answer to Pavitro. so lets wait”

    Anthony maybe you can write again if its not too much trouble , dont want to force you though , lam going for lunch now

  663. Anthony thompson says:

    I´ll try again…
    It is strange to think of me as with a role in the sannyas movement. Osho and his work is my passion I have researched for 23 years both interviewing people and experimenting myself.
    I am proud to say that i know probably all there is to know about Osho´s life, work and history of the movement. i have interviewed the people personally involved in the stories i have research. Done the groups, visited the communes, done the meditations, etc. actually I did dynamic in the morning and kundalini in the evening for 4 years.

    So, i can not tell you about a role, because that is not my motivation. But i can tell about my intrinsic drive:
    curiosity, admiration, love, enjoyment, entertainment, growth and pride.

  664. garimo says:

    I just had a thought of how uninteresting the mystery school would have been without the “therapists”.

  665. Kranti says:

    ” But i can tell about my intrinsic drive:
    curiosity, admiration, love, enjoyment, entertainment, growth and pride.”

    I think Of all the people Anthony had a more wholesome experience.. He not only plunged into facts and reserach like a acadamecian but also experimented everything thouroughly within / by himself.. He has balance of mind and heart..

  666. Kranti says:

    If Osho meant Zorba the buddha or mind-heart balance then Anthony fits the bill more as a ideal disciple than Rajneesh.. Just a sannyas name for formality alone make people Osho lovers.. 1000s or people take sannyas ad never care to do what Osho taught..

  667. Kranti says:

    ” Just a sannyas name for formality alone do not make people Osho lovers..

  668. shantam prem says:

    This is more precious than anything I’ve sent lately!!! Jeevan

    ——

    AN extract from Osho talk in Hindi with subtitles in English. You can enjoy it at the following link:

    http://dotsub.com/view/9c61180a-7437-4f7d-b936-5b24f76a5708

    Share the link with as many friends as you can
    loving you Jeevan
    jeevan@osho.net

  669. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    ”So, i can not tell you about a role, because that is not my motivation. But i can tell about my intrinsic drive:
    curiosity, admiration, love, enjoyment, entertainment, growth and pride.”

    intrinsic drive is only love , curiosity part is not required for the love , Anthony , my experiance is that facts dont play a part in love

    Kranti , l am wondering if you & Anthony are the same

  670. Kranti says:

    No Swami Pavitro ..

    Anthony is a 60 plus year old Chilean professor who has as much Love for Osho as he has for facts and research.. He spent his life time in the presence of Osho and with all people who were close to Osho..Someone who did a terrific research work and put christopher calder in his place..Thats a great service to humanity..

    I am a 40 year old struggling Indian & a Nobody..Just love Osho..nothing more about me.. Literally Nothing.

    You say ” my experiance is that facts dont play a part in love “.. It seems facts played part in His love for Osho.. Calder case being an example.. ( i didnt mean the impersonal love enlightened people talk about )

  671. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    You know what Kranti , you seem to be just like Sw.Anurag, (Anthony is your Sw. Rajneesh ) you are always defending him , anyway sorry l dont care for facts , the point is we can give each other a cyber whatever

  672. Kranti says:

    Not really Sw pavitro.. I share some similar views with him..thats it..In this thread we seem to have no conflicts on various points..So it looks like I am defending him.. I am a nobody to defend him

  673. Anthony thompson says:

    Pavitro. If you read a few threads back, i used to think that Kranti was a girl.
    Regarding our agreement, it has grown with time. If you read those threads before you will see we started disagreeing practically on every point… back when we were the 7 samurais.
    Actually kranti discussion skills also have been polished by time.
    But our agreeing is just a coincidence.
    I understand that your motivation is not facts or curiosity, but love. But you area a sannyasin and I am not.
    MY love for Osho is immense, as it is my gratitude.
    But I am a researcher and that is how I came to him.
    And, as Kranti pointed out, I have put my research also in service of Osho in the article I wrote refuting Christopher calder… you can see a sumary also few threads back as an article in this very sannyas news.
    but the whole original one is in
    http://truthaboutosho.blogspot.com/

  674. Anthony thompson says:

    Pavitro. If you read a few threads back, i used to think that Kranti was a girl.
    Regarding our agreement, it has grown with time. If you read those threads before you will see we started disagreeing practically on every point… back when we were the 7 samurais.
    Actually kranti discussion skills also have been polished by time.
    But our agreeing is just a coincidence.
    I understand that your motivation is not facts or curiosity, but love. But you area a sannyasin and I am not.
    MY love for Osho is immense, as it is my gratitude.
    But I am a researcher and that is how I came to him.
    And, as Kranti pointed out, I have put my research also in service of Osho in the article I wrote refuting Christopher calder… you can see a sumary also few threads back as an article in this very sannyas news.

  675. Swami Pavitro (Hawai) says:

    thanks for the explaination , Kranti & Anthony , anyway the point is , we are all in here for our own reasons / excuses , ok guys lam off to Hawala valley & will be back soon

  676. Satya Deva says:

    Anthony, who knows the psycho-sexual mechanism operating in Osho? Only him, of course.

    But as he was the most loving and compassionate man that any of us are ever likely to encounter I suggest that selfish lust was highly likely to have been an absolutely minimal characteristic.

    And that an impersonal love, of which I and, I suspect, you and almost everyone else, has very little, if any, experience as an ongoing reality, had long since reigned supreme in him.

    This is not to ‘put him on a pedestal’, as it were, it is simply my understanding, however limited by personal experience, of the nature of such a man.

    To wish to think otherwise might somehow be ‘convenient’, of course, it might even perhaps serve to relieve us of the feeling that lust might just not be ‘all that it’s cracked up to be’, that we are perhaps ‘falling short’ if we’re stuck with that…

    But frankly, if an enlightened Master doesn’t know the difference between and is unable to or doesn’t bother to discriminate between lust and love, between love and sex, then there ain’t a lot of hope for any of us!

    And I’m certainly ‘no angel’, I’m as sexually loaded/flawed as the next person, but I wonder whether sannyasins or fellow-travellers like yourself, Anthony, really know -or care – about the difference?

  677. meera says:

    Anthony thompson has said :

    ´It is strange to think of me as with a role in the sannyas movement. Osho and his work is my passion I have researched for 23 years both interviewing people and experimenting myself.
    I am proud to say that i know probably all there is to know about Osho´s life, work and history of the movement. i have interviewed the people personally involved in the stories i have research. Done the groups, visited the communes, done the meditations, etc. actually I did dynamic in the morning and kundalini in the evening for 4 years.´

    Anthony you have searched
    everywhere

    except IN yourself

    you were scared to jump…
    you perfer to scratch on the surface
    the typical psychiatrists

    all your search and investigation in vain..

    23 years lost in futile outwardly research..

    use your remaining years to attain to source…

    KNOW THYSELF

    good luck

    meera

  678. Satya Deva says:

    Thanks for responding to my notes re the sexual exploitation of the vulnerable in Poona 1 (and beyond).

    However, I believe I’m firmly in the same boat as Frank, for example, here, as I find your distinction between psychotherapists/analysts and therapists/group leaders to be wholly bogus, missing the point completely.

    To claim that ‘transference’ happens in formal psychotherapy but not in other therapeutic contexts is, to me, utterly absurd.

    In both therapy groups and in 1:1 sessions with the same or other Osho and/or ‘humanistic’-type therapists this most certainly goes on, as I know very well from my own personal and others’ experience.

    I also know and know of women who feel their extreme vulnerability, usually at a young age, was exploited by such therapists, especially in Poona.

    One was an ashram cleaner, who was confronted by a naked and obviously aroused and very lustful man, one of the therapy ‘elite’ at the time, someone she looked up to as being an ‘authority’, as he was reputed to be very close to ‘Bhagwan’.

    She felt confused, but felt she somehow “ought” to submit to him. Later realising she’d simply been used and abused and damaged by the experience.

    As had quite a few others by the same guy, in similar situations.

    I just wonder why you seem to have a bit of a blind spot regarding this issue, Anthony.

    And before you start lecturing me about how I really don’t understand the psycholgical complexities you have previously expounded at great length, rest assured that I most certainly have, sir!

    As I, along with many others here, are well able to understand and communicate in such terms.

    But, as another contributor has said, you do sometimes seem to lack a bit of common sense – not unlike a number of intellectual types – and avoid the realities that are staring you in the face (if not in your own life, then in what others report to you).

  679. Satya Deva says:

    Another question, Anthony:

    You say you felt your research on Osho/sannyas would not be taken seriously by your academic peers if you took sannyas.

    And that you could therefore better serve ‘the movement’ by remaining on the outside.

    What, would you say, was (or even is) your primary motivation:

    To ‘serve the movement’ or to retain your academic status and credibility?

    Or, simply to stay ‘independent’?

    Could you be totally honest here, please?

  680. Anand says:

    I personally think that Anthony is a ‘scholar’, in this case an ‘Osho scholar’ and from his point the only person, who understands the whole Osho movement including Osho himself. Unfortunately from outside he is missing the whole mystery of disciplehood. But the mind is clever and will rationalize and his reports here proof this point very clear.
    It is a pity, since he is completely hooked on his subject and still after all these years is writing letters with questions to Amrito. By now he should know.
    The answer is within.

  681. Anthony thompson says:

    satya deva .My motivation is entertainment and pleasure… as everybody else.
    I already told you why i did not take sannyas and I was honest about that.
    I was afraid of loosing credibility with my research. i did not like the adoration attitude that sannyas implied, and I never felt like being anybody´s disciple. I am too independent.
    I have never been the follower type.
    I have been a meditator for over 20years and never saw the need to be initiated.
    People like to put me in boxes here either I am an intellectual scholar and have no direct experience or I am a covered up sannysin, in reality.
    There seems to be a lot of problem to relate to what I am: a non-sannysin lover of osho, meditator, seeker, professor, psychotherapist.

    I am not going to go again into the details of the conversation related to group leader and so on. I think I have taken all the juice out of this lemon. and finally it refers to what is the paradigm we believe in.
    personally, i think people are responsible for their choices and behavior , even if they do not want to be aware of those choices.
    so we finally came to we believe to be the nature of reality.

  682. meera says:

    SANNYAS is not a choice from yourside..
    the MASTER choses you…

    Anthony dosen´t belong to the chosen ones
    he has a big EGO
    and an intellectual mind
    he continues scratching on the surface
    rationalising ..
    afraid to let go..
    holding on to a puffed up rediculous image
    still wannna impress others
    still an old horny man
    with a suppressed sexuality…

    actually a poor character
    not worth debating over
    he is just a ZOMBIE

    and I believe he will cling to
    that phony lifestyle until his death

    such people are too old and hardend

    for them everything
    is already toooooooo late

  683. Kranti says:

    ” But frankly, if an enlightened Master doesn’t know the difference between and is unable to or doesn’t bother to discriminate between lust and love, between love and sex, then there ain’t a lot of hope for any of us!”

    Satya Deva

    This what i also felt / posted.I feel , for a truly enlightened body-mind sex & lust should not be a need as they are stuff required by normally insane human beings as a means to fulfillment..

    After becoming enlightened if somone has lust and he uses the same for fulfillment then there is no hope ..

    The day I understand that after enlightenment i still will have lust and will still seek fulfillment thru it i will stop going after that stupid thing called enlightenment..I will rather live the life which I am already living

    Recently i read a beautiful answer given by Unmani for he question of need for a relationship after awakening.. Thats is the best and most authentic answer I had come across so far.. No jargons , No Zen stick and all.. Simple and plai..

    ( If I get that link I will post here )

  684. Kranti says:

    Satya Deva

    Please find link of that interview

    http://www.not-knowing.com/interview-with-unmani.htm

    Specifically the answer come under ” Relationship to Others ”

    To me it was very beautiful reading & appreciating what she said.. I wrote to her also about it..

  685. Satya Deva says:

    Thanks, Kranti, I will look at that.

    As for Prof. Anthony’s response about himself, let’s remember that when he arrived in Poona Osho was around for only about another 18 months or so before he died, and the Ranch had already collapsed…Perhaps not too surprising, then, that he chose to remain a ‘researcher’.

    But his silence on the other issues I raised speaks volumes.

    Nothing to say on sex/love, love/lust, Anthony? With regard to sannyasins, Osho – or even yourself?!

    Unwilling to comment on my points about ‘transference’, which contradict your own very lengthily expounded views?

    No views about the sexual exploitation of young women by high-status therapists?

    Reckon you’ve ‘said it all’, eh? So these issues are somehow unworthy of your attention?

    Unimpressive, Anthony, you sound more like a politician sliding away from a debate, than a genuinely ‘disinterested researcher’.

    You reckon you ‘know everything’ about Osho, sannyas etc?

    Reckon ‘enlightenment’ is a mere metaphor? (A convenient sort of belief, perhaps?)

    How about love? Another mere figure of speech perhaps?
    (Maybe it is, in a so-called ‘open marriage’?).

    Impersonal love? Impossible to verify, therefore outside your remit?!

    I’m somehow reminded of my old history teacher, a great inspiration even know, who used to warn us against “theories that while seeming to explain everything, explain nothing”.

    As did his of ‘enlightenment’

  686. Satya Deva says:

    Sorry, last line above an error!

  687. Satya Deva says:

    Another point about ‘transference’, Anthony:

    Quite a few years ago I took part of a course in ‘Bodymind Therapy’ with one of its British pioneers, a very gifted man who had also qualified in traditional psychoanalytic therapy (as well as being a Cambridge PhD).

    We were certainly not training to be analysts or psychotherapists, but guess what was the topic of the very first session…

    Transference.

    As I said a couple of posts or so ago, you are utterly and totally wrong to say this is confined to psychotherapy and psychoanalysis.

  688. Anthony thompson says:

    satya deva. give me a break i also get tired of discussing the same thing over and over.

    regarding love and lust, Both for me are expressions of being alive. I do not make a hierarchy out of them, i do not think lust is lower than love. it is just a different expression of life energy. One is driven by “dopamine” and the other by “oxitiocin”, just different chemicals and perform different functions in the organism. one is basic reproduction the other on is bonding to protect the human offspring.
    Personally I have enjoyed both. love is more fun, thou.

    I already answer your question on transference. You may disagree with what I say. But, man, give me a break! just read it again. For your information there are psychotherpies where transference does not even exist in the framework… like janov´s primal. I told you it is a psychoanalaitic concept.
    I also get tired of repeating so much.

  689. Shanti says:

    I find all this discussion of sex and therapist so absolute prude and hypocritical.
    We are all human beings. even the therapists. people have sex with the people they relate to.
    people have sex with what is in front of them.
    Anthony is right. Osho could not go pick up a girl at a bar… he never went out. he just saw his disciples, so of course he has sex with disciples.
    Ma Sita is living in Goa now. I was friends with her. and she was Osho´s lover, in woodlands in bombay before Vivek got into the picture.everybody knew that
    And she was her disciple. what is the big deal here!??

    Therapists have sex with their group participants. With whom do you expect them to have sex with?. they are the people they relate to. Not only in Osho´s world everywhere is the same. It is human.

    I think it is demanding people to stop being who they are. And people who go to therapy are not poor goats. they are adults and take decisions and if they do not dare to say no… well it is their problem and it is their duty to work that out. come on guys!!

    The story you tell of the cleaner and the therapist reminds me of Teertha. He was like that and many women fucked him because he was Osho´s medium. well. that was the women´s problem. it is her trip to work that out. H
    He came to me i did not like him and I said no. and that was it. No big deal.
    There was another therapist who also came to me, Rafia and, he was cute , so i slept with him, and that was it.

    All this story of abhay that I am so special is bullshit , i am a female sannaysin like any other… but I do not play the victim and blame men for my own inability to set limits. and I learned that from My master Osho. That i am responsible for my experiences and the choices I make and if I hope to one day get enlightened I better start owning my feeling, my choices and and my projections.

    All this ethics, prude stuff sounds to me like a socialized conditioning thinking that power is outside ourselves and that we can really be influenced without our permission and that is sheer bullshit… specially if you are interested in your personal growth.

  690. Shanti says:

    one more idea.. we have not spoken about the female therapists who slept with their clients. what about poonam, vismaya, vasumati, mallika, gambira, maitri? mmmh.
    men were also poor vulnerable beings who could not say no, because they were weak?
    Or with men is different, because they are naturally strong?
    see, just patriarchal bullshit, based on the victim model some disgraceful women like to hide behind.

  691. meera says:

    WAKE UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    if you really LOVE OSHO

    take one hour of meditation and listen to THIS

    AAAAHHHHHHHHH THISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

    http://www.oshoradio.nl/ORL05-11-09.mp3

  692. Anand says:

    Shanti is a good example of transference. She slept with Rafia, denied sex with Teertha…all group leaders. Only she does not see it herself and thinks she has free will.
    She is also stuck in the feminist belief system of the sixties.

  693. Kranti says:

    Shanti

    I dont understand this transference so far..

    Whatever it is Shanthi , You simpley blow my mind with your posts.. I have never seen a freedom of expression like this..

    Wish i can grow older and date you..

    If you become enlightened please take me as your first disciple..

  694. Kranti says:

    ” but I do not play the victim and blame men for my own inability to set limits. and I learned that from My master Osho. That i am responsible for my experiences and the choices I make and if I hope to one day get enlightened I better start owning my feeling, my choices and and my projections.”

    How True.. How True.. I am more or less like this..

    Infact this approach has given me a certain peace deep down .. I no longer loog outside to shift the blame.. I am in deep trouble now in all aspects of life .. people stabbed me from back and put me down…But i am standing on my feet only because i am ready to accept responsibility for all my decisions.. Surprisingly there is no guilt or shame or pain associated with things I did once i accepted responsibility

  695. shantam prem says:

    Anand,
    I think Shanti is one fine example, feminine belief system of sixties or seventies and the experience of communes around Osho.
    People were becoming awakened or enlightend all the time and in the name of God people were indulging in the carnal delights but with feeling of shame and guilt.

    With Osho, few people have enjoyed this combination so beautifully that if any one of us, who was loving and meditating peacefully, ever touches the pinacle of truth, the flavour will be much different, it will have the ingredient of Honesty inside, indeed a rare comodity in the make belief world of inner journey.

  696. Anand says:

    We always go back from the original post: group participants blindfolded being sexually abused by therapist (male or female).
    This was not a matter of free choice between grown up people.

    And that is what transference is Kranti. I see Transference happening all the time in Pune and experienced it myself once. It is an interesting phenomen happening in therapy situations. It obviously would not apply to Shanti. She would either slap that guy or ask him out.
    I only mentioned this because of the abuse situation.

  697. Kranti says:

    Anand

    I understand abuses take place.. Please tell me whether the participants couldnt escape / avoid such abuses?

    There was a mention of famous therapist abusing a cleaner in pune. But thats seems to be a clear case of imbalance.

    But someone who is independent enough to travel all the way from another country in search of spirtuality and that too knowing the risks of free community like Osho’s falling prey to such abuse is what i am not able conceive of.. I would think such a person have demostrated enough independence even before they landed in pune..

    Let me know whats your thoughts are.. I really anxious to understand this more as I always think abuse is possible only there is major imbalance or weakness

    When you say transference ..I chceked wikipedia ..
    this is how it is defined

    ‘ Transference is a phenomenon in psychoanalysis characterized by unconscious redirection of feelings for one person to another ‘

    ‘ “During transference, people turn into a ‘biological time machine.’” A nerve is struck when someone says or does something that reminds you of your past. This creates an “emotional time warp” that transfers your emotional past and your psychological needs into the present.”

    Does this applicable to the abused also ?

  698. frank says:

    we forgot “evolutionary psychology.”
    where big monkeys shag little monkeys.
    thats a hierarchy.
    the big monkeys as therapists had the most kudos.
    they could pull the chicks even if they looked like the back end of a bus.
    female therapists never had the luck cos blokes,generally prefer a stupid 8er or 9er even if she`s an airhead to a powerful minger.
    dont ask me why ,i didnt invent the universe.

    chicks like shanti went with big boys.
    she likes to be powerful.
    she`s still impressing people with it now.
    why not?

    poor old repressed english chaps like me who have spent too long battling to keep my upper lip stiff to the detriment of other parts of my anatomy,could never hope to keep up with crazy-wild-liberated-hot-latino-therapist-eating-barcelona scarlet women….

    oh well,time for my cold shower,then get my manservant to give me a good thrashin before i retire to my unheated bed….

  699. Kranti says:

    ” they could pull the chicks even if they looked like the back end of a bus.”

    Therapists or chicks looked like back end of a bus?

  700. Shanti says:

    Sure… a powerful man is attractive… evolutionary psychology, lets ask Anthony.
    But so is a sensible man, so is an intelligent man, and so is a vulnerable man.
    I did not sleep with anyone because he was a therapist or a lao tzu gardener. i slept because I wanted to.
    I was born at the end of the sixties, so i do not live any feminist stuff Anand.
    You area just being a male chauvinist thinking that if a woman is sexually liberated ” must be because of the sixties women´s-lib”.
    I own my choices and my feelings and my decisions. and let me tell you something else. women own it too, but when it hurts, they rather go blame men for their suffering and playing the victim is their favorite game.

    If I am dancing blindfolded and someone touches my breats… first I remove the blind fold and see who it is… if i do not like him I tell him to fuck off… If i do… as Teertha used to say,well “let´s see what wants to happen”,

    If i do not set limits it is my choice… I am ashamed to see my gender partners playing the poor little girl.

    All i care about is hypocrisy. If someone is preaching celibacy and fucking around, i think it is awful, but if someone is honest about his world vision… I have no problem. The therapists I knew were never preaching any sort of celibacy. more over encouraged everybody to live their truth… and they set the example. why do you think that Osho allowed all that?: mh?

    Kranti I am 44…and quite attractive I must say.

  701. Satya Deva says:

    Kranti wrote:
    I understand abuses take place.. Please tell me whether the participants couldnt escape / avoid such abuses?

    There was a mention of famous therapist abusing a cleaner in pune. But thats seems to be a clear case of imbalance.

    But someone who is independent enough to travel all the way from another country in search of spirtuality and that too knowing the risks of free community like Osho’s falling prey to such abuse is what i am not able conceive of.. I would think such a person have demostrated enough independence even before they landed in pune..

    Not much time right now, Kranti, but trust me, there were some very young, impressionable, inexperienced and naive people in Poona, despite having got it together to get over there from Europe or the States or anywhere else far away. (I should know, I was one of them!).

    Maybe that’s hard for you to grasp somehow, as an Indian (no offence intended, btw)?

    Shanti (and Anthony) conveniently ignore this and seem to be extremely and mistakenly judgmental of those who became the prey of the lust of the sexually manipulative and cunning.

    Who were not averse, btw, if rebuffed, to tell the woman she was ‘uptight’ or ‘blocked’ or ‘not a real sannyasin’ or some other such bullshine.

    And you haven’t grasped ‘transference’, I think. It refers to the inner processes of the ‘patient’, not the therapist.

    Anyway, as the man said, “enough for today”, more tomorrow, when I expect I’ll have more to say about this and more to say to the disappointingly evasive Prof. Anthony.

  702. Shanti says:

    Satya. Now I feel offended.
    do you really think that a woman will sleep with a guy because he tells her, even if he is a therapist, that she is ‘uptight’ or ‘blocked’ or ‘not a real sannyasin’ ? are we that stupid?
    You are as gullible as you allow yourself to be.
    It is like saying that we will spleep with someone because he told me I had beautiful eyes, or if i did not sleep with him I was not hip enough… ha, ha. those giorls really sold you the story ah?
    How was it? when they told you they slept with the therapist and you got jealous they said ” but, I did not really want to… I was young, inexperienced… and I looked up to him, you know”.
    ha, ha. are you British? because if you were born in the southern part of europe my female partners will be laughing their guts at you.

  703. Anthony thompson says:

    Transference is a psychoanalytical term that refers to the process by which the ” patient” transfers feelings he retains for authority figures in his life ( parents, teachers, priests, etc), to the therapist. It might involve having “feelings” of love or attraction for the therapist, that actually are reflex feelings he feels or felt for his own parents.

    That in “simple” words.
    Transference is a term used by therapies that have a psychodynamic approach, except for Janov´s Primal Therapy.

    In Therapies that have an existential-phenomenological approach this terms is rarely used, and actually it is considered a rationalization of the “client´s” neurotic need to hold on to his past.

    Co-counselling, existential therapy, Victor Frank´s Logo therapy and some forms of gestalt do not consider transference at all or do not give importance to the phenomena.

    In the works that evolved out of schutz encounter groups ( most groups in pune were based on this), transference is a phenomena that is believed to be present in any kind of social interaction, therefore the transference between the group leader and the participant is no more significant that the one the participant may hold for his fiance, spiritual master, or an officer of the law.

    Those are the models.

    Now believe in what you feel is more right to your own paradigm… good night!

  704. Anand says:

    Shanti, you made your point clear. Enjoy Barcelona.

    For me this topic is finished, interesting responses.

  705. swami prem vimalgit says:

    …..has anyone had any experience (inner experience)….of the Beloved??

    …if so…please explain……if not keep all this nonsense…or rather watch all of this blah, blah…..yourselves…

  706. Anand says:

    Wish i can grow older and date you..

    If you become enlightened please take me as your first disciple..

    >>>Kranti…you completely lost it!

  707. Kranti says:

    “Kranti I am 44…and quite attractive I must say.”

    Thats good news.. I am 40.. I dont have grow too old to catch up

    Anand

    What did i lose? I dont understand ..

    Anand / Anthony – Thanks for the posts on ‘ Transference ‘.. learning for me.. But my first impression is it is more ike what Anthony said ” rationalization of the “client´s” neurotic need to hold on to his past ” Let me see what more i learn..

  708. Kranti says:

    ” Not much time right now, Kranti, but trust me, there were some very young, impressionable, inexperienced and naive people in Poona, despite having got it together to get over there from Europe or the States or anywhere else far away. (I should know, I was one of them!).”

    Satya Deva.. I understand . I was refering to more mature individuals choosing their path and methods not the kind ‘ young ones ‘ thrown into the system due to adrenaline alone..

    I do accept my point of people being mature & making choices is very idealistic.. Most of the snnyasins would got into the flow due to various reasons..not always out of choice..End of the day everyone is taken with the flow of life. Whether we do it conciously or unconciously or out of force.. I used to feel i am making concious decisions..But those have turned out to be disasters affecting others in ways i didnt conceive of..

    One thing I agree with shanthi is the ‘ victim ‘ role played by people especially women.. Trust me ..as an indian i know how every Indian women play that role perfectly .. i am not saying i am holier because i am a man.. I had been even more foolish & selfish..But nowdays i do try to accept consequences & take responsibility and athst has given me peace of mind..

    Now I feel it is better to keep things simple.. take one key issue at a time and resolve / live it..and allow rest to life kind approach

  709. Satya Deva says:

    You don’t get it, Shanti, I’m afraid.

    More later!

  710. Kranti says:

    For a change..browse this site

    http://www.interprettheworld.in/

  711. Shanti says:

    …”Most of the snnyasins would got into the flow due to various reasons..not always out of choice..End of the day everyone is taken with the flow of life. Whether we do it conciously or unconciously or out of force.. I used to feel i am making concious decisions..But those have turned out to be disasters affecting others in ways i didnt conceive of..”

    Kranti , dear. you are always responsible. You make your choices… even if you do not see that you are choosing, you are choosing.

    Not only a conscious choice is the one you are responsible for… you are also responsible for your unconscious choices… that is what our master taught us. You may not have foreseen the result of your choices… but that is something else. You are still responsible for the life you choose t ( aware or not) to live. This I think is maturity.

  712. Kranti says:

    Shanti

    ” Kranti , dear. you are always responsible. You make your choices… even if you do not see that you are choosing, you are choosing ”

    Sure.. thats what i mean and do now..Whether the decision is concious or not the responsibility is ours. Tha slso gives the present moment as the staring point to respond and not the past ..

    ” But nowdays i do try to accept consequences & take responsibility and athst has given me peace of mind..

  713. Kranti says:

    Anthony / Shanti

    I was stunned reading this .. Dont know whether you have read already..You would have most probably

    I dont even know what to feel..

    http://www.satrakshita.be/interview_with_vivek.htm

  714. Shanti says:

    oh, yes it was in a darshan diary.

  715. Kranti says:

    Her relationship , expriences and language of description are beyond my belief.. I havent experienced anything about this type of past life and all..As of now i dont even know what to say ..Whether those things are just illusions or real.. Infact the more i understand Osho the more i lose interest in those kind of things and start loving the ordinariness of present moment.. Paradoxical..

  716. prem bubbie says:

    Choosing and being judgmental are one in the same. I hear constantly, “don’t be judgmental”,,Sorry but we judge all the time if we didn’t judge(make choices) we’d die, simple; wither away and die. it’s HOW we judge-make choices, you can be stupid and make stupid judgments, or use all of your ability and do the best and see what happens. As long as you do the best you can. With life on this planet being the way it is, it seems most are stupid. Some things you can’t escape. That’s life on this planet, now, to go inward, to go to your true nature, to empty the head, well that’s a whole ‘nother ball game. Judging will just get in your way on your way to wonderland!!!!

  717. Kranti says:

    Yes Prem Bubbie..We judge all the time

    But even here the issue SEEMS to be one of definition .. What exactly we mean by judgement.? Judging someone based on personal opinions that are not backed by solid evidence seems to be very different from judging someone in the present moment thru what is happening . Ihave been thinking and trying to understand about this ‘ Judge not ‘ from a more deeper angle..

  718. prem bubbie says:

    Whether if it’s judging one way or another, it’s of the mind, it’s learned! For the person who is not brain damaged and is of ordinary ability, if you haven’t learned to judge from being aware, living in the present , use all of one’s faculties, then a person repeats the same mistakes, screws up, prejudice exists. Yet if one lives with eyes open, a person can grow. This is using the mind for positive purposes, we remember our mistakes and use them to grow. As opposed to forgetting everything that has ever happened and living a so called” moment to moment” existence. I think this is where many people err, they think this is the true meaning of moment to moment or living in the present. I think it’s a cop out, an avoidance of taking responsibility of one’s actions. This approach is the stupid way of living. i see this in particular amongst pot heads, drug abusers, born again christians and other “religious” groups including Sannnyasins!! It’s sad to see. It’s not very difficult to live a life with at least some awareness, even that is asking too much for many people.

  719. Kranti says:

    It all boils down to living without an identity.. doesnt it?

  720. prem bubbie says:

    Bulls eye!!!!

  721. Ciso says:

    Men is not perfect, even Sannyasins! This is so simple, but yet so hard to understand

  722. Ciso says:

    I mean, isn’t the subject of this chat if meditation should or not become business?