Why Boddhidarma went to China

It has been a few days since we had a really passionate discussion so I asked the Editors for this extract from Osho to be presented: Shahriar

“Ego takes itself very seriously. Now, there is a problem: egoistic people become very much interested in religion. And in fact, they are almost incapable of being religious. Only people who are non-serious can become religious, but they are not too interested in religion. So a paradox, a problem exists in the world. Serious people, ill people, sad people — uptight, hung-up in their heads — they become very much interested in religion because religion gives them their greatest ego-trip. They are doing something otherworldly, and the whole world is just worldly — materialists, condemned. Everybody is going to hell; only these religious people are going to heaven. They feel very, very strengthened in their egos. But these are the people who cannot become religious. These are the people who have destroyed all the religions of the world.

Whenever a Buddha arises, these people start gathering. While he is alive he does not allow them to become powerful. But when he is gone, by and by, the serious people start manipulating the non-serious people. That’s how all the religions become organized, and all religions become dead. While Buddha is there, he goes on spreading his smile, and he goes on helping people. So many times I have told the story: that Buddha comes one day with a flower in his hand, and sits silently. Minutes pass; then the hour is passing and everybody is worried, uncomfortable, uneasy: “Why is he not speaking?” He has never done that before. And he goes on looking at the flower as if he has completely forgotten the thousands of people who have gathered to listen to him. And then one disciple, Mahakashyap, starts laughing, a belly laugh. Amidst that hushed silence his laughter spreads. Buddha looks at him. He calls him close, gives him the flower and says, “Whatsoever I could say through words I have told to you, and whatsoever I cannot say through the words, I transfer it to Mahakashyap” — to a laughing Mahakashyap. To laughter Buddha gives his heritage? But Mahakashyap disappears. Those serious people who could not understand became the manipulators. When Buddha is gone, nobody hears anything about Mahakashyap. But what happened to Mahakashyap, to whom Buddha had given the most secret message: that which cannot be delivered through words, that which can only be delivered and received in silence and laughter, that which can only be given by tremendous silence to tremendous laughter? What happened to Mahakashyap? In Buddhist scriptures, nothing is mentioned — only this solitary anecdote, that’s all. When Buddha is gone, Mahakashyap is forgotten; then serious long-faces start organizing. Who will listen to the laughter? And Mahakashyap will recede back. Why bother? — these serious people are fighting so much that a man who loves laughing will get out of this mad mob of competitors: “Who is going to be the head of the Buddha sangha, of the Order of Buddha?” — and politics enters, and fighting, and voting, and everything. Mahakashyap is simply lost. Where did he die? — nobody knows. Nobody knows the real heir of Buddha.

Many centuries, almost six centuries pass; then another man, Bodhidharma, reaches China. Again Mahakashyap’s name is heard, because Bodhidharma says, “I’m not a follower of the organized Buddhist religion. I have received my message through a direct line of Masters. It started with Buddha giving a flower to Mahakashyapa, and I am the sixth.” Who were the other four in between? — but it became a secret thing. When mad people become too ambitious and politics becomes strong, laughter goes secret. It becomes a private, intimate relationship. Silently, Mahakashyap must have delivered his message to somebody, and then he to somebody else, and he to Bodhidharma.

Why did Bodhidharma go to China? Zen Buddhists have been asking for centuries, “Why? Why did this Bodhidharma go to China?” I know; there is a reason: the Chinese are more joyous people than Indians, more delighted with life and small things, more colorful. It must be the reason why Bodhidharma traveled so long, crossed the whole of the Himalayas to seek and search for people who could laugh with him, and who were not serious, not great scholars and philosophers, and this and that. No, China has not created great philosophers like India has. It has created a few great mystics like Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu, but they all are laughing Buddhas. It must be that Bodhidharma’s search towards China was a search for people who were non-serious, light.

My whole effort here is to make you light, non-serious, laughing. People come to me, particularly Indians, to complain that: “What type of sannyasins are you creating? They don’t look like sannyasins. A sannyasin, has to be a serious person, almost dead, a corpse. These people laugh and dance and hug each other. This is unbelievable! Sannyasins doing this?” And I tell them, “Who else? Who else can do that? — only sannyasins can laugh.”

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60 Responses to Why Boddhidarma went to China

  1. Heraclitus says:

    Silly boy. In Osho’s lifetime all sorts of serious people surrounded him who had very little humour like Sheela and her gang. His alive presence did nothing to act as an antidote to that.

    So Osho’s own argument above is mistaken. There is no protection from idiots, and it is not only Osho’s life that proves this. Look at Gurdjieff, look at Rumi, look at Jesus. Surrounded by jealous serious idiots who betrayed them in different ways.
    Much better to have no followers and remain unknown.

  2. Shahriar says:

    How about when there are still rebellious mystics alive? As far as organization is concerned it might have some use so you cannot totally disregard it and throw it away. So I will not say that organization is totally useless, although in the hands of unconscious people, much wrong and harm happens. That is why transfoming your consciousness is so important. Leaving religion aside, let us look at how the untrasformed consciousness, has done much wrong in other areas of human life. The communist revolution. The communist revolutionaries were very good intentioned, if fact it would be difficult to find more dedicated, more self-sacrificing individuals than communists. The communist revolution considered the society to be the primary thing, the main cause of the problem. Because of this, communists did not bother to transform their own consciousness and the result was that power fell into the hands of someone like joseph stalin and the same good-intentioned, dedicated, self-sacrificing people became monsters. In fact, the became worse than the monsters which they were trying to overthrow. No czar has been as oppressive and cruel as joseph stalin. No czar has been as murderous as joseph stalin. How did this calamity come about? Communists did not know that the most essential thing is the transformation of consciousness. Otherwise what is preventing people from being joyous and ecstatic? Their unconsciousness is preventing them. The same unconsciousness which creates misery, which prevents them from being joyous and ecstatic, created one of the most totalitarian and oppresive regimes in the history of the world. It is amazing to see how forgetting something essential and primary like the trasformation of consciousness can lead to things like totalitarianism, mass murder, slavery, oppression, all the things which constitue hell for human beings. The problem with organizations is their unconsciousness. And to be unconscious is very easy for individuals and organizations, but to be conscious requires effort, and then people ask why things go wrong. People ask why the communist revolution went wrong. The reason is really very simple. Unconsciousness, lack of awareness. This is the fundamental cause of the failure of every outer change. Because if the consciousness is the same, the body will change itself to reflect the consciousness. No matter what changes you bring to the body, if those changes are removed you will fall back into the same hell that you were trying to avoid, and this time it will be more painful. It is something akin to taking drugs. But reality cannot be avoided.

  3. Shahriar says:

    I think that this is very fitting here since Osho’s message is primarily one of consciousness, and before doing anything, whether it is starting a movement for democratic change or any other action, the real thing that has to be done is to become aware. Harri Om is not interested in awareness and meditation, his primary interest is in politics. Meditation does not need politics and those things which Harri Om calls democracy, elections and voting. Elections and voting are the blind leading the blind. Osho’s message is a message of truth, and this politician wants to destroy that truth for his own ambitions. The fire of truth is needed again and again to burn and to expose the false to the eyes of human beings until they have become aware and alert. Now that politicians like Harri Om are so interested in destroying Osho’s truth, meditation and rebelliousness have become even more primary. Rebellion has nothing to do with politics, society and reaction. It is an individual process. Harri Om is not interested in rebellion, he is purely political. Truth is not a concern for him, that when he looks at Osho he does not see truth, but rather an opportunity to serve and fulfill his own ambitions. Democracy is a false coin, it deceives, it promises much but it does not bring results. Osho was poisoned by a democracy. It is a very strange thing because Socrates was also poisoned by a democracy. People often think that if democracy comes everything will be alright, but they are deceived. The problem is not coming from dictatorship, communism, fascism, Nazism, democracy, capitalism, these are all byproducts of unawareness. The society is not the primary cause of the situation, it is the individual who is the primary cause. Therefore any change which has something to do with the outer will deceive and will fail in delivering the goods. The real problem is man and his unconsciousness and the real change that needs to happen is in his consciousness, not in the form of the society. Whatever form is given to the society, the ultimate result will be that it will change to reflect human beings. Harri Om is not interested in truth. Democracy and Truth have nothing to do with one another. You Harri Om are not a sannyasin. You are a politician. It is evident from your words that you have no understanding of Osho or Osho’s work. Otherwise you would not talk of democracy and democratic change. In fact you would be concerned with individual change not with social change. Osho is concerned with the individual and his transformation because the individual is the reality, not the society. You are a hypocrite and a cheat. You are also a politician, you are cunning. The cunningness is evident from your unwillingness to reveal your identity. Your political nature, your blindness and unconsciousness are evident from the fact that you are concerned with social change and not individual transformation. Pune is a Buddha field and while Jayesh and Amrito may have been disrespectful, this does not mean that they cannot go back to the right path again and respect sannyasins and become caretakers of Pune once more, as they should be. You on the other hand, do not understand Osho. You only see a good opportunity to serve yourself and your own ambitions. You are not concerned with Osho or his work. You would not mind distorting his words here and there just to serve your own ends. You would not mind compromising with the unconscious people just to gain honor and cheers. You are interested in politics, in elections and in votes, everything that is opposed to the truth. Socrates was poisoned by a democracy, you idiot. By a democracy. That means by voting and elections Socrates was given hemlock and you, idiot, want to degenerate Osho’s Buddhafield and turn it into a campaign ground and into an election ground. Fool. Ignorant man. Harri Om has to be remembered. We have to beware of him. If Harri Om is forgotten, then we will make many mistakes out of unconsciousness and ignorance. He is unconscious so he does not understand what he is doing, but we who do understand what he is doing have to make sure that all sannyasins become aware of the danger posed by Harri Om and his movement for democratic change to Osho’s Buddhafield and Osho’s truth. Harri Om is a politician, he is not a sannyasin. One does not become a sannyasin by wearing a robe and a mala, otherwise Osama bin ladin would be a Muslim, and Ronald Reagan would be democratic and fair. Osama bin ladin is a terrorist, Ronald Reagan is a fascist and only a person is a sannyasin who is working to become aware, and awareness has nothing to do with a robe and a mala because fools can wear a robe, politicians can wear a robe. In fact, politicians have worn many robes. Politicians have worn the robe of a priest, of a bishop, of a cardinal, of a pope, and recently they are wearing the clothes of democratic, freedom-loving people. Politicians are deceivers. Therefore beware, Socrates was poisoned in a democracy. Osho was also poisoned in a democracy. Be aware, otherwise history will repeat itself. History does not have to repeat itself, but as long as human beings are unconscious and mechanical, as long as they exist habitually, and not consciously, they will make mistakes and go wrong. The only way to go right is to become aware. Awareness is the most primary thing in Osho’s work. Becoming aware is the most essential thing, and everything else is secondary and superficial. Awareness is the most important thing. Osho’s work is becoming aware, that is what has to be done. We have to become aware. That is our job. And nothing else, otherwise it does not matter. Without awareness everything will fail, therefore be concerned with awareness and not with social change etc. etc. etc. Harri Om is trying to degenerate and destroy Osho’s Buddhafield. He is trying to turn Pune into an election ground. Osho’s work is concerned with truth. Enlightened persons cannot be elected on the basis of elections, politics, democracy, etc. etc. etc. Elections, votes, democracy have nothing to do with truth and meditation. And these are the real things. Truth, Meditation, Awareness. Not politics. Harri Om is a fool and he is an idiot and he is a politician and he is ignorant and he is unconscious and he is blind. He is not concerned with Truth but with ambition and self-aggrandizement. We need to beware of him. Socrates was poisoned in a democracy. Osho was poisoned in a democracy. Socrates was poisoned in a democracy. Osho was poisoned in a democracy. Socrates was poisoned in a democracy. Osho was poisoned in a democracy. Let this become a mantra. Socrates was poisoned in a democracy. Osho was poisoned in a democracy. The transormation of consciousness is the most important thing, the transformation of consciousness is the most essential thing. In fact, it is the only thing that is needed to transform the world, because awareness solves the most fundamental problem. it changes the consciousness of the one who is creating problems. It makes him aware so that he can see how he is creating problems so that he can stop creating them.

  4. shantam prem says:

    These people laugh and dance and hug each other. This is unbelievable! Sannyasins doing this?” And I tell them, “Who else? Who else can do that? — only sannyasins can laugh.”

    Above statement from our master lost its relevance in His very own place after 2000.

    The cry is to bring the laughter back.

  5. shantam prem says:

    ……. is trying to degenerate and destroy Osho’s Buddhafield….

    Osho’s Buddhafield….????

    Beloved Shahriar,
    Please go through all the Osho publications from Pune, print edition and online version and let us know…

    when was the last time, the pharse, “Osho’s Buddhafield” was used.

    If you find ten times in last ten years, i send you fifty dollers for your research through Paypal.
    For a student, i think this amount is fair! (lol)

  6. Shahriar says:

    Lol,

    Shantam Prem, I did not say that the managers are spiritual. I said that this is the purpose of the buddha field. To help seekers on the path. As far as pune managers are concerned, their only job “should” be to create the space where meditation and the spiritual search will be easier but they have turned it into a resort as it can be seen. They are materialists as far as I see it. Otherwise why would politicians be attracted to religion and spirituality? What does Harri Om see in Osho and his religion? An opportunity to make money, profit, become powerful etc. etc. etc. All the attractions of the ego. So I would like to coin a new word, Egofield. Egofield is where people’s only purpose is to become more powerful, wealthy, honored, respected, everything having to do with ego and nothing to do with religion and spirituality. For example, the catholic church is an Egofield, although it’s original purpose was to be a buddhafield (or christfield, if that is how they prefer it.)

    Harri Om is trying to throw out the orthodox, that is why he is revolutionary. When he become powerful and established, he will become orthodox, just like the fools he is trying to throw out. And in the process much harm will have come to Osho’s work. Harri Om can be compared to Martin Luther, the started of the Protestant denomination. Since he could not become pope, he has decided to overthrow the orthodox and become the pope. The managers in Pune have turned Pune into an Egofield and Harri Om is interested in further degenerating Osho’s Buddhafield by bringing in politics, voting, elections etc. etc. etc. Both of these efforts are foolish. Pune is supposed to be a buddhafield, where people put aside the egoistic drives for power, wealth, fame etc. etc. etc. That is it’s purpose. Pune is not supposed to be a place where people gather to make money, become powerful, gather votes etc. etc. etc.

  7. Harri Om says:

    Shahriar, you say that I am trying to destroy Osho and his movement. You are not aware that it has already been destroyed by Jayesh, Amrito, and the rest of the New Team. You may be right that the peoples voice (democracy) is not the correct path. After all it is a contradiction in terms. The Master is only consciousness, and the sangha is half awake and half asleep. Therefore it is obviously possibly the sleeping sangha may get things wrong and poison the Master or Socrates or millions of Jews.

    Unfortunately Shahriar there is a little problem which you may not have noticed. The Master is dead. Call it what you like but the reality is Osho is no longer with us, and he did not leave a successor. Also he made it absolutely clear that the Inner-Circle was not to function as a collective spiritual successor. It was to have no spiritual role whatsoever. It was to administer Osho’s affairs, to caretake his legacy, but not to interpret his vision.

    So what to do you want to do Shahriar? It is fine to criticise me, but the reality is that a criminal gang has destroyed the Maroon people, just like Sheela and her gang destroyed the Orange people. The thing is that most people do not yet know it, and you are one of them. You have never met Osho (Bhagwan Rajneesh); you have never been to one of his communes; you have never been to Pune; you have never even been to the swank new resort that is the epitome of religious hypocrisy. Also it is clear that you would make a good Teacher, hence why not take over Inner-Circle, Pune resort and OIF from Jayesh. Anyhow Jayesh has already provided about as much entertainment as any decent legal authority can bear. Why don’t you become the third great tyrant? I just have one question as I want to go out and by some material to start making my new robes. Which colour do you want me to wear Shahriar my greater Teacher?

    In Tibet the lineage of the buddhas was done through novel means – finding the young buddha and having him (perhaps one day her) choose the correct personal affects. Also, the belief system was that the same buddha reincarnated to the next life, hence it is literally the same being carrying on a particular lineage.

    There are simpler ways. Just prior to leaving the body a Master may simply call all the close disciples together, and then choose some unknown person who has spent the last twenty years washing the rice for the sangha.

    Both ways have advantages and disadvantages. The main problem with the latter way is that the Master is stuck if there are no worthy disciples. This was the case with Osho. That is also not to say he did not leave many enlightened disciples. It is just that they were not big enough to fit into his shoes.

    Many belief systems take a different viewpoint than the Tibetans on the point of final reincarnation. It is often held that if a being attains to buddhahood, then there will be no more re-birth. Osho also held this view. So if Osho is not around, and the movement has been trashed for a second time round, what do you propose? Your winding story of well read ignorance is an unconscious empty spiel. Your words reek of hypocrisy. The unconscious preaching consciousness, just as all the priests and saints have done through the ages in the name of all the mass religions of the world. Who is the fool? If there are elections and you run for office (as CEO) I hope that the sangha has the capacity to see through your lies. If not, then I will reverse my efforts and destroy the democratic process.

    When I say sangha the issue is confusing. There are many Osho sannyasins that have a living person as their master: Baba Purnanand, Samdarshi, Chaitanya Keerti, Swami Rajneesh, or Arun for example. These people claim to be Masters in their own right. They have disciples who are with them based on their own free choice. Of course these people have a direct connection with Osho, though they may make it more or less obvious.

    When we are talking about Osho’s legacy and sangha (community), it is a multi-coloured collective of all this and much more, including many Westerners that have never been with Osho, now regularly visit the Pune resort, and probably have never even met Jayesh.

    Shahriar what we are discussing is not the unfolding of Osho’s vision through more or less wise interpretations of his word (whether or not it was or was not whispered in his ear just prior to leaving the body). Osho’s legacy was his discourses, his transcribed words, his paintings, his books, his beautiful robes, his Samadhi, and his Pagoda. To be the caretaker (take care) of this is to preserve in as much as is practically possible everything in its original state – this is Osho’s legacy, and the role of the Inner-Circle. They have failed dismally.

    If someone wants to interpret his word and build a temple, a pyramid, or make devotees wear pink and yellow striped robes than go and enjoy. However be clear that this is on your own authority. It may be that Osho is your Master and inspiration. You may even tell your disciples that you are channelling Osho’s word. Great, but leave Osho and his legacy out of your trip.

    Yahoo and lol

    http://oshodemocracy.blogspot.com

  8. Shahriar says:

    Harri Om,

    I will leave Osho and his legacy out of my trip. As far as Osho is concerned it is not his words, but his being. And as far as succesors are concerned, Buddha gave his authority to Mahakashyapa. So why couldn’t have Osho given his authority to some one similar to Mahakashyapa. Please do not assume that Osho had no worthy disciples. And a succesor to Osho does not inherit anything material. Look at Zen. It is not even recognized by the majority of buddhists. But it has received the flame of Osho. It is the same with Osho’s succesor. That person does not become extraordinary. Zen masters, sufis, none of them are extraordinary. But they are the succesors of Buddha and Mohammad. The same with Osho. Mahakashyapa may not look like he is Buddha’s successor. After all, do you think that if Mahakashyapa declared himself Buddha’s successor, people would have accepted him? They would have laughed at him and called him a fool.

    “Osho’s legacy was his discourses, his transcribed words, his paintings, his books, his beautiful robes, his Samadhi, and his Pagoda”

    We can call this the ashes which are left after a flame has burnt. But they are just ashes, they are not wisdom. They are beautiful, and tremendously meaningful. But this does not mean that they are Osho’s consciousness.

    The managers certainly have failed dismally, but this does not mean that you are spiritual, or that the movement for democratic change is spiritual. Organizations are materialistic, democratic organizations included. In fact, democracies are some of the worst abusers of human rights on earth. More than dictatorship. Democracies are opposed to the truth, because the person’s in the democracy are politicians, they are ambitious for power just as much as dictators. Democracy does not exist on this earth. It exists in name only. Politicians are not concerned with Truth. Nowhere is this more clear than in Islam. Islam is one of the clearest examples of religion which has fallen into the hands of politicians. The saudi arabian kings for example, are muslims only in name. In spirit, they are materialistic, money worshipers. Their body worships the kaaba, but their soul worships washington D.C. and Dollar. Do you think that sannyasins are any different? Do you think that the saudi arabian kings are spiritual? Sannyas is something inner, not something outer. The outer may help or hinder, that is true. But the inner is the real thing.

    So sannyasins should understand that just because someone wears the mala and the robe does not make that person a sannyasin. Zen monks have burned buddha’s statue to warm themselves. But this does not mean that they are not Buddha’s succesors. Words and actions deceive. Only the being is true.

    This is the reason why democracy fails. Democracy has nothing to do with the trasformation of consciousness. And the people in democracies are not spiritual, their concern is with becoming the CEO. The catholic church is one very clear example. The catholic church, the popes, the bishops and the cardinals look perfectly christian as far as words and rituals are concerned but their being is not spiritual. Of course they have not been able to cover up their crimes the way American politicians have succeeded in doing. So spirituality has nothing to do with these things. Understand it. Spirituality is not in words and actions, because Mohammad forbids music but Sufis play music in their gatherings. Does this mean that Sufis are not spiritual?

  9. Shahriar says:

    “Look at Zen. It is not even recognized by the majority of buddhists. But it has received the flame of Osho”

    I meant to say that it has received the flame of Buddha.

  10. Shahriar says:

    Harri Om, I have a cousin by the name of Babak Jafari.

  11. prem bubbie says:

    Heraclitus, It is true that is no protection from idiots, but when you have something so incredible to share, one has to use the hand you’ve been dealt. As I stated in previous posts, Osho used whatever means that were necessary to bring as many people to their true nature. By ALL MEANS NECESSARY, plain simple, a “go for broke” method. The state of human consciousness at this point of “time” demanded that approach. He cast a net far and wide and caught many “fish”, a few that were mature and ready and many immature and incapable of understanding, yet that had to be done, we are on the brink of self-annihilation , there is nothing to lose!! Most who do not understand have turned against him including Sheela, jackasses like those running “the resort” are just that, jackasses, they can fuck up a free lunch, which Osho gave out by they way. Some of the characters who post on this site are so hung up on stupid shit, and minutiae you wonder why we need to get the laughter back. Stop your petty bickering and Shariar, I think you posted today mainly to slam Harri Om under false pretenses with the Bodhidharma’s trip to China story. Frankly, I don’t give a shit if Harri Om is real or not. Your fucking obsessions……..!!!!!!!

  12. Shahriar says:

    This is kind of complicated. Part of my post was originally supposed to be published along with the article, but the editors were not willing to publish it because I asked them not to edit anything and they said that they would not publish anything without the right to edit. So I asked them to reconsider and they said I can send my article again etc. etc. So I sent it without the piece on Harri Om, which I decided to post. Which gets us here.

  13. prem bubbie says:

    “…Gave his authority… why couldn’t have Osho given…” You missed the meaning completely. It’s a metaphor!!!! “Authority”? What authority? There IS no authority except each of us,,, our true nature. None of this passing the baton nonsense!!! There is no kingdom to leave, no inheritance to leave and no crown to give. How do you know Osho didn’t pass his “authority” already, not to just one but to many…done so quietly, silently. No fan fare, no ceremony, no parades. When Consciousness happens….that’s Authority!!!!

  14. Shahriar says:

    What I meant by authority is Osho’s flame. Of course it is not something material, it is something invisible, so you cannot decide anything about it based on outward signs and symbols.

    Harri Om, I do not see what relevance my cousins name has to any of this.

  15. shantam prem says:

    Shahriar,
    May be you can look in this way too, that Harri Om, a fictitous name for a real sannyasin is bringing his voice out, when most of the people on his path have taken the approach of deafning silance.
    May be his utterly radical approach is to shake a bit that crowd, who sees the rape happening yet believing there must be some shooting going on for a movie!

    it is wondeful to add a new word in the dictionary coined by you, ” EGOFIELD”

    This word summarises all what is going on in the Buddhafied.
    May be in this way autonmy, THE TAO has become complete.
    In a layman’s term, Buddhafield is like a Shiva temple. Meeting of Shivalinga with Yoni; and creation happens.
    One of the most beautiful symbol, depicting creation.

    “Egofield” is a backdoor neighbour. Good for eliminating the unuseable stuff and for many a source of pleasure too.
    But It will create and evolute something further ??’
    yes…it can happen…..everythig can happen… even Elton John can become pregnent!

  16. Harri Om says:

    Shahriar you say “We can call this the ashes which are left after a flame has burnt. But they are just ashes, they are not wisdom. They are beautiful, and tremendously meaningful. But this does not mean that they are Osho’s consciousness”.

    This is the joke, and congratulations for getting it. Perhaps one day you will be the new Mahakashyapa. Also I have no interest in whether or not anyone actually succeeds Osho. I agree with Prem Bubbie on this matter. It is just that the disrespect towards his ‘ashes’ by the so-called visionary de-oshoizing Zen business people towards Him is disgusting.

    You see Osho created this immensely prestigious entity called the Inner-Circle. Sounds so profound doesn’t it. Yet the truth is that though the task of taking care of his ‘ashes’ is immeasurably precious, it is also very ordinary – too ordinary in fact. That is why in truth if the Inner-Circle were to stay within their mandate they would have little of importance to do. Hence they have to make out that they are the wisest disciples endeavouring to ‘provide insight’ into Osho’s vision. What a joke.

    Shahriar if you convince me that you are Osho’s successor I shall immediately take down the site and denounce the Osho Movement for Democratic Change. Of course I consider this possibility remote.

    The Inner-Circle has a simple earthly non-spiritual function. Hence I do not understand the resistance to Osho sannyasins electing people to take care of his ‘ashes’. We are after all not choosing a successor. I agree in general with your argument of successors. However do you think if Osho was to have a successor such a person would be interested in spending much time caring for ‘ashes’? Such a Master would be busy setting the world on fire with consciousness. Jayesh and Amrito have made the mundane job into some sort of special spiritual endeavour. The irony is that in practice they have destroyed much of the simple things they were supposed to protect. They have done this dictatorially and against the will of the majority of Osho sannyasins.

    So many people, especially Westerners, are totally supportive of the removal of the Pagoda. They can see the logic in preventing excessive devotion. However what right does anyone have to prevent Osho sannyasins who want to visit the Pagoda to do so? (Of course this line of reasoning is retrospective). They are not in any position (the Inner-Circle included) to deny Osho sannyasins from connecting with whatever part of Osho’s legacy they so choose. Hence all the Westerners that group together and denounce so called excessive religious fervour are themselves utterly arrogant. They have no right to interfere in something they know nothing about. Sure some people may come with the sort of religious devotion that Osho always denounced, but what about all the other authentic seekers?

    What has happened is destruction of Osho’s legacy by a dictatorship, plain and simple. Now you might not like what I am proposing, however do you agree with what I am saying is the current status quo? Osho’s legacy needs to be protected and the tyrants are in entrenched in their power. What would you like to do about it? Nice theory about a successor not needing a signed authority from Osho, but where is the saviour? Is it you? How long do we wait for you to come forward, and for us to feel your presence and see your light…and for you to kick out OIF, Pune resort management, and the Inner-Circle?

    The democracy I am talking about is not engaging in spiritual activity. It is engaging in the protection of spiritual property. I do not care if it is a non-sannyasin that performs this role, so long as they protect and preserve Osho’s ‘ashes’.

    Shantam says the crowd “sees the rape happening yet believing there must be some shooting going on for a movie!” It is true, and what I say is that the Inner-Circle are busy directing the amazing must see movie that will attract millions of maroon morons, when they should be trying to protect and preserve Osho’s legacy. That is the reality movie. What a joke.

    http://oshodemocracy.blogspot.com

  17. shantam prem says:

    “So many people, especially Westerners, are totally supportive of the removal of the Pagoda. They can see the logic in preventing excessive devotion”

    Harri Om,
    it is not true.
    Western sannyasins sensibilites are hurt too. There are thousands of western sannyasins, who deposited their trunks in Pune, stopped coming to Ashram, once the shit started flying all around.
    I have seen hundreds of such trunks being broken by the firm in my neighbourhood after 2to 3 years of their deposit.
    The people i was looking with Awe in 1987-1999, the tall educated, dignified man and woman with solid backgrounds, are not coming to the ashram.
    Are they hit by the recession. Not at all.
    These people as many of them did not have the children but rich parents, would have left their property for Osho’s work, will now prefer to go this to the state than 17, Koregaon Park.
    Oh My God…Why the ego centric yet good intended people don’t see the longing in the human heart!

  18. shantam prem says:

    Solution of our spiritual legacy is very simple.
    It is in the old ad line of a soft drink,
    ” Coca Cola- The only One.”

    Let the original Coca Cola remains Coca Cola. Yet for the changing habits and market trends company has launched, Coca cola Light, Coca Cola Zero, Coca Cola vanilla other than Fanta, Sprite, Thumbs Up and Limca for Indian tastes.

    Original Osho taste should nver be taken away from shelves.
    What is this original Osho taste?
    One can see all this in the videos and still photogrpahy and the thousands of hours of recording.
    and hundred thousands who have tasted the hugs and smiles and a fellow traveler feeling in the original 6 acres of Ashram campus.

    When Mitan and Milarepa rocks us all with their music and songs in the ashram campus…one will see than how the market responds..till than it is a black out, though the electricity bill is still in millions.

  19. shantam prem says:

    What is the similartiy between Oral sex and Egofield?

    just a slip of tounge and one is in deep Shit.

    can someone remember when was the last house full stand up comedy in the ashram?

  20. Shahriar says:

    Harri Om,

    One of the things is that how can you be certain that the person who you elect has integrity? How do you know that he is not corrupt? How do you know that he does not have ulterior motives? All these are legitimate questions. How do you know that he/she will not harm osho’s work? Especially if this person is a non-sannyasin, he/she would not mind taking bribes to change and distort Osho’s words. That would be acceptable to him, since he has nothing personal to do with Osho.

    As fas as his words are concerned, is Pune the only source of his words available? Is there any other group/organization which preserves his words?

  21. Shahriar says:

    Very nice shantam. Lol.

  22. Shahriar says:

    I wonder why Osho did not set up some secret underground library with his words recorded, and secretly give somone the task of taking care of it. This seems like a very intelligent thing to do, and I would have done it, were I in such a position. So I certainly wonder why Osho has not done it. Someone like the tibetans for example. Or some other group.

    The main problem is that your democratically elected management might distort Osho’s words. So if ever such a thing happens, they CANNOT be caretakers of his words.

    I really wonder why Osho did not give his recorded words into the hands of some secret group to take care of it. It is certainly a very intelligent to do.

    I am opposed to democracy because I still think that the inner-circle is the right way. My main argument is that the inner-circle are groups of sannyasins and they elect members unanimously, so they will not give Osho’s work into the hands of any fool, but into the hands of persons which they consider worthy to be caretakers. Democracy does not have this limitation, and who has the right to vote? People who have never lived with Osho and simply have a maroon robe? Maroon robes can be mass produced. The only way is for the inner-circle to elect replacements unanimously. And Jayesh and Amrito have been disrespectful and their actions have been ugly.

  23. shantam prem says:

    in the context of Osho’s work- Pepsi is the right choice baby!

    I still think that the inner-circle is the right way. My main argument is that the inner-circle are groups of sannyasins and they elect members unanimously, so they will not give Osho’s work into the hands of any fool, but into the hands of persons which they consider worthy to be caretakers. Democracy does not have this limitation, and who has the right to vote? People who have never lived with Osho and simply have a maroon robe? Maroon robes can be mass produced. The only way is for the inner-circle to elect replacements unanimously. And Jayesh and Amrito have been disrespectful and their actions have been ugly.

  24. shantam prem says:

    “so they will not give Osho’s work into the hands of any fool, but into the hands of persons which they consider worthy to be caretakers…”

    Let us see how the future unflods in the world of Osho.
    Collective age of The two men’s politbüro is 60+
    May their Dead God bless them with healthy and long l life…but how long, even football match ends in 90+ minutes, let us see who will be their successors.
    If their mind doesnot change..most probably it will be “their” disciples, some mid level businessmen from New York and LA!
    and than these businessmen in Maroon robe will call themselves, INNER CIRCLE.

  25. Shahriar says:

    “The democracy I am talking about is not engaging in spiritual activity. It is engaging in the protection of spiritual property. I do not care if it is a non-sannyasin that performs this role, so long as they protect and preserve Osho’s ‘ashes’.”

    Do you think that such people will be able to take care of his words? Will a non-sannyasin be able to protect and preserve Osho’s ashes? Do you think the roman empire was interested in preserving the ashes of Jesus Christ? What about the jews and the rabbis?

    VERY IMPORTANT:

    You assume that the people who are elected democratically have integrity. There is nothing which supports this assumption. There is nothing which gives any support to the idea that human beings become different when existing in a democracy rather than in a dictatorship or some other form of government. Misuse of power, which we know is possible, happens in democracy just as it happens everywhere else. Otherwise Osho would not have been refused by 10 or however many countries it was. His commune in america would not have been destroyed. He would not have been arrested unjustly. American politicians crucified an innocent man because they wanted the support of the catholic church. All of this happened in a democracy. The most undemocratic things happened in a democracy. You would like the same sort of ugliness and hypocricy to be brought into Osho’s movement?

  26. Kranti says:

    Why no one is talking about Bodhidharma in any of the posts? Thread name should have been ‘” Why Harri Om likes democracy ? “

  27. Kranti says:

    Better thread name will be

    ” Will Harri Om go to China if given an opportunity to spread Oshoism there ? – as it is a communist country “

  28. shantam prem says:

    Kranti—good stroke. deserve four runs on a no ball.

  29. Kranti says:

    Good to see cricket blood running in you Shantam..inspite of living in europe for so long..

  30. Heraclitus says:

    My main argument has not been refuted. It is basically that Osho was mistaken in the view that when the master is alive by some alchemy the movement is protected. His own life is evidence against that, as many other “great” teachers.
    Now bahkti people here find this difficult. How can “our” master be mistaken?? He’s infallible !!
    Now this is really a silly sort of relationship. Why in any case have a relationship with anyone, however much one admires them that includes the infalliblility of one party.
    This has always been compounded in the case of those who say or are said to be “enlightened”.
    The most enlightening thing to be said about this is that everyone without exception can be mistaken, and that includes the enlightened, and is what makes us all human. The quick recognition of mistakes was almost certainly why in evolutionary terms we as a species made such rapid strides (comparatively) to other monkeys! .

  31. prem bubbie says:

    Question: What’s the difference between Osho, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Krishnamurti, and all other “enlightened” masters? When you figure that one out and actually understand it, then you’re half way there to understanding life on this dimensional plane of existence. Osho contradicts himself constantly, We are supposed to figure things out ourselves, it’s pretty obvious. See for your self, don’t hang on his words. See if one thing he says is true or not. The “new” man is one that doesn’t follow like sheep, has intelligence, doesn’t act like a retard that follows every command. The followers of the old religions are like that and look how much violence and devastation has occurred. Live life with awareness and eyes open. Not only question authority, but challenge authority. But noooo!!!! Still too many fools and retards hovering around Osho’s banner. Too many still holding on to the past, afraid to let go. Let go of your fear and live!!! Even if you have to let go of the good old days of Pune and the Ranch. I personally favor democracy. Look, we had the Ranch which was a totalitarian regime and definitely not a commune or democracy and look how that failed. If humans are going to fail, well, fuck it, let’s vote on it and be done with it. Stupid people will vote for stupid people. It’s called SURRENDER!!!!!!

  32. shantam prem says:

    Now bahkti people here find this difficult. How can “our” master be mistaken?? He’s infallible !!

    Heraclitus, for simplicity sake you can put me with Bhakti people, I don’t think my master is infallible that he is omni potent, omni present, that he cannot commit mistakes like people do.

    neither it is a attachment with the past as bubbie thinks, matter of the fact is even if Osho is just an ordinary writer, still nobody has the right to change his manuscripts after his death,
    May be you can look at the famous sculpture,David by Michael Angelo. it is as it is for the last 500 years.
    Imagine Amrito and Jayesh as a inheritor of that sculpture, i a sure, these little people will atleast make his panis big!
    How dare they can do this, arts lover will scream all over the world.
    Life brought us closer to Osho, it was illusion or vision, a relation was formed, therefore atleast for me it has become a question of my inner calling to oppose the arbitarary decisions of those few, who think they can see better, they can hear better etc.
    If we look at the tradition of the disciples, these choosen few should have gone to their native countries to share their master, in this process they could have opened a meditative casino in collabration with Donald Trump. The new age Mahakashyaps are free to create their own version, own interptation.

  33. oshobob says:

    A fine picture painted by Osho of why Bodhidharma went to China — it can be added to the vast collection of varied answers to one of the most asked questions in the world of Zen, “Why did Bodhidharma come from the West?”

    But also, Heraclitus has a damn good point in this regard — the master can be off the mark. Although Osho has the capacity to explain his ‘view of the moment’ with a never hesitating confidence, the notion that Bodhidharma came to China to find a more lighthearted spiritual environment than India just doesn’t mesh with the known story very well. Osho has the well known capacity to make up his own story on the spot, to fit his particular broad-brush image he is wanting to portray at that particular moment.

    But, the traditional movie goes something more like this…

    Bodhidharma meets Emperor Wu, and dimisses the ruler of the entire country with a few gruff and distinctly non-lighthearted put-downs. Then the great Zen master turns away and leaves Wu, goes to a nearby monastery and sits in a cave for 9 years by himself with his back to everyone else, not saying a word. Not your typical image of a laughing, joke-cracking life of the cocktail party man, this Bodhidharma.

    Then he basically ignores even the Chinese disciples who seem to be genuinely interested in this new pure Zen stuff, until one of them, in desparation has to cut off his arm in a snowstorm and throw it at Bodhidharma just to convince the man that he’s serious about this real Indian meditation. The scowling Zen master says, “Ok, ok — you are my marrow.”

    In fact, Bodhidharma has the rep of being one bad dude. No smiles, no chit-chat, no grace at all in the sense of normal social etiquette, to say nothing of being being any kind of fun-loving kind of guy who can roll easily with punches.

    Osho though, has that finely honed skill of making it all seem right, as his excerpt above shows. Bravo Osho! How do you do it? You are truely a master at that art…

    Here is photo that all you readers may want to see, which touches on a number of appropriate points related to this thread. It is a photo from my website, and shows Bodhidharma’s actual pagoda, or what the Chinese call his “ta”. It is one of the first photos to be seen in the West of this site. And pertaining to all the requests for identity transparency here at Sannyasnews, that is a true bonafide photo of ‘oshobob’ standing with a Chinese man right in front of Bodhidharma’s stupa. So there — you finally have a photo of me. Here’s the link:

    http://www.livingworkshop.net/kx1.html

    Also, to correct a mistake on this post forum by a few writers who are decrying the demolition of Osho’s “pagoda” at the Pune Resort, I think you mean his “podium.” “Pagoda” is a Portuguese based word for the structure that houses the remains — usually ashes, bone bits, and teeth — of a revered Zen master. It is also a shrine of sorts. Osho’s word for it is his “samadhi”, which I don’t think was ever messed with at the resort, though they did do a name change — it being referred to now as Chuang Tzu meditation hall, or something like that.

    Also, for editor Parmartha…see if you can spot the two misspellings you have of Bodhidharma’s name in the title of this thread at the top here…a ruler slap on your knuckles, as this would never pass in the classrooms of Eton or Oxford, as you well know…

    I enjoyed reading all your posts for the past few months boys — keep the passion for the truth aflame!

    Cheers.

  34. Shahriar says:

    “Why no one is talking about Bodhidharma in any of the posts? Thread name should have been ‘” Why Harri Om likes democracy ?”

    We are going to stop talking about Bodhidharma and get back to Harri Om and democracy. What does Bodhidharma have to do with the topic of the posts? That is just the title, the real discussion is something else.

    Heraclitus, you say that people think when the master is alive, by some miracle the movement is protected. When the master is alive, people are in contact with the living word, and no misinterpretations are possible, in the sense that the master does not live according to your ideas, the master lives according to his truth. When the master dies, there are two groups. One who is interested in his body, ashes etc. which while they have their own importance, are secondary to the truth of the master, which can only be preserved in living individuals.

    The current managers in pune have turned pune into a resort, not a meditation center, there is no spirituality there. Harri Om’s suggestion is to create democratic change. The problem is that there is nothing which shows that democracy will be the right change. Democracy will take Pune lower than it is right now. Pune will become political. Right now it is just business, no politics involved. But through his movement for democratic change, politics will come in, and voting and elections and fools. Jayesh and Amrito understand that they will not be able to survive in this world unless they do business. Otherwise, people with spiritual thirst will go find a living source of water, so the only thing which will disappear is their resort. Pune is nothing more than a business organization. But politics will destroy Osho’s truth. Business will simply help it to spread. Of course Jayesh and Amrito should be more respectful towards sannyasins and not use their power illigitimately. But politics, elections, voting etc. have nothing to do with meditation. The real thing is meditation. And it is very difficult to say whether what they are doing is right or wrong, ultimately helpful or harmful. I remember a story about a chinese man, whatever happened, he would say do not judge, do not move beyond the facts, do not interpret.

    VERY IMPORTANT:

    Not everyone is a seeker of truth. A real, life and death, seeker of truth, so it is very difficult to talk about such things to people who are just beginning. You have to draw them in slowly, you have to throw out a net to catch the fish. What they are doing is introducing people to the very beginning of sannyas. Nothing heavy, nothing ultimate. They are setting traps for people to awaken their thirst, to catch them. Of course, they cannot give people the ultimate truth, but they can take them one step closer. And when people become thirsty, they will start searching for a real living master. So in that sense, they are doing right. Of couse, for people who are beginning spirituality, it is difficult to talk to them about god and truth and the ultimate and enlightenment. Especially in the west, where people have never heard of such things. So you have to approach them in some way. So their way is right, perfectly good. But this does not mean that people cannot have their own understanding of Osho.

    For example: devotion. If your desire is authentic and intense, you can create a temple anywhere and worship. Because worship and devotion are not in the temple, although the temple can and is a great help, the real thing is in you. Your totality.

  35. Harri Om says:

    Shahriar it took just few years for the original Inner-Circle to be reduced to half. Then another battle spilled out around ten years after he left the body. Many more people left, quietly and otherwise. The Inner-Circle had just few members then, and so Jayesh quickly employed a few people that would say yes to everything he said. So this is the current Inner-Circle. Would you like this current Inner-Circle to elect new representatives? A more practical solution to your suggestion is the original Inner-Circle getting together and electing new representatives, and the tradition can follow on from there?

    A lot of the old Inner-Circle disciples left because though the task be precious, the work load became overwhelming. They did not realise at the time that it was Jayesh who was pushing them into that space. It is a little like all the people who liked to work 2 hours a day. They had to work 6 hours a day or pay to come in to the resort. If other Inner-Circle members did not keep up the excessive workload Jayesh and others would simply run over them. If you do not use your power you lose it, in the field of battle that is.

    The problem with your suggestion is that it may end up being a protracted version of what has happened in just a few short years. Even if it takes hundreds of years, if in the end we have a future Inner-Circle like the current one, it may take a thousand years to get out of it. Hence I do not support your idea in totality. Perhaps I may concede to a partially democratically elected and partially unanimously selected model. Of course do you think that there will be any unanimity in the Inner-Circle? Perhaps if those seats be vacant democracy can pick up the tab.

    Shahriar you seem to think only Osho sannyasins can look after Osho’s ‘ashes’, and that non-sannyasins cannot be trusted. History has so far shown us that Osho sannyasins can only not be trusted. Also, if a non-sannyasin was asked to perform the work they would be in the position not to be attached to Osho in some way. You worry that they would abuse Osho’s words for example. Firstly this has been happening through OIF for however many years. Secondly, obviously they would be employed with strict guidelines that for example do not permit such decisions. Thirdly did I say I think a Catholic Bishop should take care of Osho’s ‘ashes’? Have a bit of common sense. Where to you get support for your position?

    VERY IMPORTANT:

    You think American politicians crucified Bhagwan Rajneesh. The only logical explanation for Osho’s crucifixion is at the hands of one or more close disciples.

    Many people equate George W. Bush with Osama bin Laden or perhaps a tyrant like Suddam Hussein. Sure he managed to just scrape in a second term in office. However shortly afterwards he had an abysmal approval rating. If he overthrew the democratic process and created his own dictatorship, it would have been that most of the people in America would wanted him out, but would not have been able to do it. In the recent presidential election the Democrats did not have to try and win, they just had to let Bush and the Republicans lose, which is what happened. Again, have a bit of common sense.

    Kranti you say “Why no one is talking about Bodhidharma in any of the posts?” In your next post you say…Then you go on to say ” Will Harri Om go to China if given an opportunity to spread Oshoism there ? – as it is a communist country “

    If you want to talk about Bodhidharma and not me than you should lead by example.

    Heraclitus your argument has not been refuted. Also, if such terrible things happen when the Master is in the body, I just wonder what type of things happen when he is gone. I accept extremist devotees will find it hard to accept such a position. You wonder why. It is because they desire to be the false perfection they imagine to be in their God or Master. Perhaps if we suggest to them that the Master had a body which was not immune to the world of aging and disease. In the same way may we suggest that the Master did not live just in a world of disease, but also of diseased minds. Hence as Prem Bubbie argues, though he welcomed all and tried hard, a Master has limitations due to the physical world and the nutcases that live on it.

    OshoBob you write with remarkable clarity. However as far as the Pagoda is concerned we are not in Portugal nor China nor Japan, and we know where the Samadhi is, the Podium is, and where the structure that was demolished used to be. We call it the Pagoda, so for the sake of linguistic accuracy keep up with the times.

    And anyhow on what basis to you include me as one of the boys? Perhaps look up one of your dictionaries for the answer.

    Cheers.

    Shahriar says…Jayesh and Amrito understand that they will not be able to survive in this world unless they do business. Otherwise, people with spiritual thirst will go find a living source of water, so the only thing which will disappear is their resort. Pune is nothing more than a business organization.

    Well said Shahriar. Have you read my analysis of Jayesh and Turiya’s correspondence?

    http://oshodemocracy.blogspot.com/2009/09/jayesh-turiya-response.html

    Yes he is in the business…of religion. There was nearly a major revolt by the crowd and Jayesh managed to shut them up, for a little while atleast.

    Shahriar you say… But politics will destroy Osho’s truth. Business will simply help it to spread.

    Shahriar have you not read the news lately? Have you not heard what a global pandemic is? OIF appeased the big publishing houses by acceding to their editing approach. This is an interesting methodology for editing the truth. What do you think is the basis for big publishing houses editing Osho’s words. Do you think it has anything to do with truth? Have a bit of common sense.

    Shahriar you say that “politics, elections, voting etc. have nothing to do with meditation”. Well said but some common sense is again missing. You are locked into the idea that Jayesh and Amrito have created about the Inner-Circle. The job is not as special as they would have you think. It is not about having insight into His vision. In the same way it is not about meditation. It is about preservation and protection of Osho’s legacy (ashes). Osho always used to say that some people were not ready for meditation. Do you think that some of Osho’s writings also reflect this position? No, you would rather do a trip like Jayesh and Amrito and wrongly assume that all Osho’s words, edited or not, are trying to get people to meditate (or be Zen). Have a bit of common sense.

    Shahriar VERY IMPORTANT:

    You say the business model is about giving many fish a little taste rather than catching and scaling few really tasty fish. That is a nice idea. Have you not read what Prem Abhay has been saying about the state of negligence at the Pune resort. They are catching fish, making them sick, and then sending them home. The same is with those infected books from OIF. It is not a net of awareness they are casting, it is a slimy web of deception. You even use the term thirsty as a metaphor. Yes tell them to go and drink the contaminated drinking water during the monsoon (and otherwise) at the 5-star slum.

    Shahriar do you think that the world got a nice visual impression from the Orange people. The same is with the latest colour change. Would you call this a nice taste of what it would be like to be a hard core Osho sannyasin where you can get murdered or poisoned?

    Again have a bit of common sense.

    http://oshodemocracy.blogspot.com

  36. shantam prem says:

    Shahriyar,
    Jayesh Amrito reality and Harri Om’s democratic ideas, both are two sides of the same coin. It has no legitimacy and sanccity as far as Osho’s guideliness and way of working is concerned.
    20 Intelligent people on the path with Osho take care of day to day working, manage finance in a leak proof way, publish His books the way they were published in his life time though they shoud have this much brain to open a shop at Amazon and use the modren way of communication.For example, whiterobe meeting from the ashram can be telecasted live via internet. It will create warmth, feeling of belonging.

    Every single leaf on the tree is unique yet they all are interrelated by a living organism. They all make tree. Tree is just a barren widow without them.
    This is what Osho looks like right now. A tree without leaves.
    Was it some sickness? Was some invader came from Iran and Afganistan to brutalise the delicacy of Indian soil as it was for more than two thousand years.

    No…In Hindi/Urdu poetry it is said,” Es ghar ko aag lag gayi es ghar ke chirag se”( This home got burnt by the lamp of this home i.e. son )

  37. Harri Om says:

    I get the joke now. There is an ideological divide. Shahriar has just spoken as if it was Osho himself. Osho sannyasins are drawn to a certain perspective that will cause them to continue to commit grave ethical atrocities until they are either disbanded or conscious enough to stop harming other people in the name of so-called freedom. Osho said that all the people he despised had actually just been hooked by him, and he would haunt them till the end of time. Happy travelling and although I may come from a fundamentally different metaphysics, I am also in many ways very similar to Osho. Hence I say that I have cast my net wide and I also will haunt those who ignore their responsibility in the name of freedom…till the end of time. Caio.

    Harri Om

    PS I am not going to China.

  38. shantam prem says:

    two years ago i got the chance to speak with a Pakistani cook in a small restaurant in Berlin.
    Naturally the talk went to the than dictator of
    Pakistan, General Paves Mussharf.

    This man said,” It does not matter whether we have dictator or democratic leader. Corruption disorder, nepotism will be the same, because people get what they deserve. Leaders are simply the shadow of the society.
    In the west, system works on the top because people on the bottom to are aware about other people’s rights.
    Ours is a snatch what you can kind of society.

    I always rememebr this discussion and somehow find it quite fitting in context with Osho after his death.
    it looks like in His life time, like children we were sitting on Elephant’s top. Whole world was looking small.
    Elephant’s commentary about the world, and we were thinking it is our reality.
    Now Elephant is dead, we are on the earth, yet still giving the commentary as if we are the elephant.

    Yes.. for sure we have learnt one thing from Elephant.
    That is, there are two set of teeth. One for chewing, one for public display!

  39. shantam prem says:

    Shahriar, the paragraph mentioned below is a academic jargon…..a cliche—you are good, they are good we are good all is good….kind of feeling-

    Not everyone is a seeker of truth. A real, life and death, seeker of truth, so it is very difficult to talk about such things to people who are just beginning. You have to draw them in slowly, you have to throw out a net to catch the fish. What they are doing is introducing people to the very beginning of sannyas. Nothing heavy, nothing ultimate. They are setting traps for people to awaken their thirst, to catch them. Of course, they cannot give people the ultimate truth, but they can take them one step closer. And when people become thirsty, they will start searching for a real living master. So in that sense, they are doing right. Of couse, for people who are beginning spirituality, it is difficult to talk to them about god and truth and the ultimate and enlightenment. Especially in the west, where people have never heard of such things. So you have to approach them in some way. So their way is right, perfectly good. But this does not mean that people cannot have their own understanding of Osho.

  40. Kranti says:

    I totally agree with Shariar on the below.. Very good understanding.

    ‘ Not everyone is a seeker of truth. A real, life and death, seeker of truth, so it is very difficult to talk about such things to people who are just beginning. You have to draw them in slowly, you have to throw out a net to catch the fish. What they are doing is introducing people to the very beginning of sannyas. Nothing heavy, nothing ultimate. They are setting traps for people to awaken their thirst, to catch them. Of course, they cannot give people the ultimate truth, but they can take them one step closer ”

    With all the new age look books and compilations the net is thrown wider certainly.

    So many people will be interested in Osho..But they are not greatly concerned about getting enlightened.. But certainly trying to understand life more deeply and becoming aware.. We should not stop that kind of effort of spreading awareness.. Of all the people who lived close to Osho how many got awakened and how many meditate now? You can count using fingers…

  41. Kranti says:

    Sorry Shantam.. I differ with you on the above point..

    Look around the misery of people.. any help to create a little more awareness will do.. To me the greatest thing you can do on earth is sharing / helping people to become more aware..

    I hae friends who were suffering like hell..Just one book of Osho titled ‘Joy ‘ transformed their life.. It is one those new age titles..These books have tremondous reach and effect on people..More than any other effort these books have completely changed the negative image of Osho ..

  42. shantam prem says:

    So it means Osho was not doint this?
    Osho’s whole effort fromth every bigining was to accept all kind of people.

    Was Osho not doing this- “You have to draw them in slowly, you have to throw out a net to catch the fish. What they are doing is introducing people to the very beginning of sannyas. Nothing heavy, nothing ultimate”

    What a falsity that-”They” are setting traps for people to awaken their thirst, to catch them. Of course, they cannot give people the ultimate truth, but they can take them one step closer.

    It was OSHO, osho. Osho….. who was setting the trap…
    these people, including Satya vedant, And Neelam are eating the fishes trapped by Osho….

    I can still give you the benefit fo doubt to you and Shahriar,as most of the names from the world of Osho or from Buddism are just the names…few of us have seen them walking, talking and picking up the woman and leaving them on the footpaths too.

    When i started reading Osho..because of the conditioning every name, every character in the book was looking like an angle.
    When i came just for seven days to Pune and saw the long term people their, i wanted to be like them….and as it is said,” familarity breeds contempt.”

    So it is always good to put every shining thing in the fire. 99% times, gold like substance will show their black reality.

    The simple fact is…all these people, who are selling books wh are selling meditation camps, they cannot trap the thirst of even a fraction of a percentage, what osho’s Buddhafield can do…if we allow the Buddhafield as it was drawn by HIM.
    Rest is scented Piss in the TETRA PACK.

  43. shantam prem says:

    And anyway… i am mentioning again and again and giving the example of Coca cola and cola light.
    Books you can sell, half, books you can sell full. create the quotation books or compilations but go on providing full discourses too, as He has mentioned Books at cost price and His photo on the cover.

    People can choose…whether they need .5 mg, 1mg, 2 mg or higher dose.

    BUT for God Sake…don’t reduce the inventary in the ashram. Their resort is a Fedral castro Cuba…shops with the empty shelves or the shops full with just salt, bread and Tomato sauce….

  44. Kranti says:

    Shantam..No one is denying the significance of a buddhafield.. And no one is saying Osho didnt do that.. How can we say that..after all we are sharing these here because of him. The argument in support of proving these new age books is something different.

    Just because someone likes this concept of new age books does not mean they dont like or not in support of a Buddhafield. It is one more way of reaching out to people.. Not everyone can come and spent time in a buddhafield.. Reading a newly packaged book like ‘ Maturity ‘ or ‘Joy’ or ‘awareness’ can be a significant first step towards coming to a Buddhafield..

    Infact if someone gets impressed by reading the book ‘ awareness ‘ he need not even come to osho ..he can do some other teacher also.. But thats ok as long he gets interested in awareness

  45. Kranti says:

    To me if a somone who is not aware of Osho , Buddhafield and all walks into a bookstore and he sees book titled ‘ JOY ‘ and also a book tiled ‘walking in Zen ‘ he will in all probability choose ‘ JOY ‘..because of the simplicity of title and smart packaging. Nothing wrong in catching a fish like that..

    We talk so much about Buddha and his teachings. how do we know whatever is being attributed to Buddha is actually said by Bhuddha? I am not jutifying editinh here . Please dont misunderstand me.. I am only supporting an effort to reach out to people.

    The most stressful people are todays corporate executives ..Imagine a top executive picking up a Osho book from airport bookstore and reading it in the flight.. It helps.. he will certainly not choose complicated original titles..

  46. Kranti says:

    The whole effort is raise the level of awareness of people in general. Not about trying to make everyone enlightened with a target date in mind… If that is possible the whole world would have become enlightened centuries ago..

    In Whatever way you can spread awareness is fine..

  47. Kranti says:

    ” Books you can sell, half, books you can sell full. create the quotation books or compilations but go on providing full discourses too ”

    Thats is right.. We were saying new age books also can be there.. In that sense we are on same page only ..

  48. Shahriar says:

    “I get the joke now. There is an ideological divide. Shahriar has just spoken as if it was Osho himself. Osho sannyasins are drawn to a certain perspective that will cause them to continue to commit grave ethical atrocities until they are either disbanded or conscious enough to stop harming other people in the name of so-called freedom. Osho said that all the people he despised had actually just been hooked by him, and he would haunt them till the end of time. Happy travelling and although I may come from a fundamentally different metaphysics, I am also in many ways very similar to Osho. Hence I say that I have cast my net wide and I also will haunt those who ignore their responsibility in the name of freedom…till the end of time. Caio.”

    Harri Om, there is no ideological divide. But I think that it is possible to see things from different standpoint. For example, we do not know whether Jayesh and Amrito are doing something right, we can only give our opinions. But, there are other viewpoints also. You say that they have failed dismally. This is not true. They have not failed dismally, they are doing certain things right. Of course, there are somethings which I disagree with them on, for instance, the banning of sannyasins. But this does not mean that they cannot go back to the right path. This does not mean that they cannot return. Your suggestions are too radical. Sometimes, something small may be needed. In those times, you don’t have destroy the whole house and build another one from scatch. At other times, a death and resurrection is needed. For instance, Osho often talks about the new man, for that new man, a break from the past is needed, a discontinuity. Right now Pune needs a small change, nothing big or radical. They need to stop disrespecting sannyasins, I am not familiar with the rest of the problem so right now this is all I can suggest.

  49. Kranti says:

    While googling i saw few websites referring to Osho’s life after his college lecturer work as ‘ his speaking career ‘..Interesting..

    Man.. Did he speak that much ?

  50. shantam prem says:

    Kranti, if you could read Hindi or in that sense If all His lovers could read Hindi…
    There was no big organisation, there was no big publishers and Osho was shaking the sleepiness of His country before thousands of people.

    If India has changed and is now no more the land of snake charmers but an elephant on the move, one can see these seeds in the discourses given in +-1968.

    Amrito Jayesh etc. were may be in the university when one of the top industrialist Mr.G. D. Birla gave Osho a blank cheqe but he dared to ask, few minutes later,” Acharya Shri, may i ask, how you are going to use this money for the development of our religion.”
    One can imagine what Osho did. He tore the cheque in pieces saying, ” I am for truth and not for your religion or any religion.”

    It makes me faint when i see His disciples clapping after selling few books of a world’s formost spiritual master, without bothering that master has a possibilty to have half the country behind Him, just a very little compromise was needed.

  51. Chinmaya says:

    Shantam’s statement is absolutely correct that one of the richest man of the time, GD Birla presented the cheque with specific condition, whereas Osho was/is always for truth and truth only. I joined with Osho thinking/philosophy/lecturers or say TRUTH since 1973/1974 when cost of the book use to be just Rs.Three with five or six discourses. How they pierce the heart, it could be known thru communion with the Master. And now, all Tom, Dick and Harry has become a Guru, after reading Osho books or listening his discourses, coz it has become an easy profession – Gurudom – than to remain Un-employed. These dummy Guru, as soon as sit in their car start listening the discourses of Osho for preparing to speak or say, vomit to the pubblic as to what they have listened Osho within their cars, for the next station for any so-called Parvachan, to the innocent people and for making money. Osho, being enlightened could offer so much to the public at large, otherwise with the conditioning of mind to speak for any particular religion with rotten Katha (antique stories) is easy. Rotten stories does not lead the soul achieving enlightenment, they are good for body and telling and showing each other, about certain type of group of people at the social life level. There is not a single Guru of the day, who is not listening/or has not listened Osho, and making bucks with insignia and many types of bluffs to speak, as to what people around them, need and command them to speak. Of their own, they cannot speak more than one hour, whereas one I listened Osho in Lao Tse Hall for Three hours and 40 minutes at a stretch. Osho….my Master……..Luv

  52. Prem Abhay says:

    Isn’t this very interesting indeed. Shahriar and Kranti and Shantam present such a wonderful case in support of Jayesh and the gangs holy abridged gospel. It is an argument which makes perfect sense. Cast the net wide with a soft touch and gently bring humanity into the fold of consciousness, hence saving the planet and the universe. Of course by logical deduction we have it that those who have tasted the divine shall in time be drawn to the source. Unfortunately a few fish will taste Osho and go to another well. Jayesh and the gang will no doubt be full of best wishes towards them that got away.

    If you go to the source of Osho what do you think I may find? What do you find at the Osho International Meditation Resort, Pune, INDIA, for example? My logical mind leads me to conclude that I will find all of Osho’s original discourses and transcriptions – in Hindi and otherwise. Surely the sacred book store shall be filled with all the unedited truth, afterall I am no longer just interested in a taste. I am looking for the real thing. Also, since reading all his cheap, pleasure filling fictions, I still do not even know what the great Master looks like. At least when I go to the Osho International Meditation Resort, Pune, INDIA, I will be able to see what he looked like. I am myself a professional painter and would therefore like, with special permission, to view all his paintings, signature and otherwise.

    What you will really find when you go to the well is water contamination (literally) and criminality (literally). Do you see the absolute stupidity, lack of common sense, and insanity? Shahriar and Kranti and Shantam, you go on and on about superfical arguments, have been shown what lies in the depths of the basement, yet still carry on with meaningless crap.

    Yahoo
    Abhay

    http://oshobuddhism.blogspot.com

    click on “osho resort” for some details of what lies at the bottom of the well!!!

    yes go to the source like me, get banned, received threatening emails, get verbally threatened, physically threatened with a broom, sticks, metal rods, get pushed and punched, get threatened with a knife, get told to leave Pune (as I was told not to come)…

    I know what lies at the source for I have been there. One year in silence I spent working in Osho’s Samadhi. Two years I spent in silence in his sacred Lao Tzu garden. I perhaps was the last one to have a chance to come close to the source, before the lid finally be closed by Jayesh and his gang.

    If you are so stupid as to not see the brazenly obvious then I agree that you are asking for cold water to be splashed upon your face.However what about all the innocent people that do come to Osho International Meditation Resort, Pune, INDIA, after reading a cheap fiction? What about all the Osho sannyasins that have had the integrity to leave, quietly or otherwise?
    VERY VERY IMPORTANT:

    What about so many other Osho sannyasins that know how ugly things have got, yet they feel there is nowhere else on this planet to go? This is perhaps the most ugly thing of all. There are so many of these people. They no how ugly the resort has become, yet lonely they still come. Isn’t this so sad.

    There are so many centres all over the world, yet still so many feel lost. In part this is because most, if not all, of the centres are a close circle of friends. It is therefore difficult to integrate into this cosy situation. (Nothing wrong with this mind you, but the point is there is little else). The irony is that those in need are by definition not in the most open and positive social space. Hence they do not fulfil the requirement of being happy and friendly and therefore able to integrate into the closely knit community. Therefore many of the lost souls of this world who do not fit with any of the mainstream religions either travel the path alone, or come to Pune despite knowing the tragedy of the place.

    What do the real seekers need? They need safe and affordable accommodation – nowhere to be seen in Koregaon Park as the locals rip everyone off. They also need cheap and healthy food – nowhere to be seen in Koregaon Park, especially at the resort. They also need an affordable space to meditate – the only one I find was down at the burning ghats, but it has its limitations. They also need safe means of getting there and a safe environment upon arrival – no chance of that…have you taken a taxi from Mumbai to Pune…or have you walked the back streets of Koregaon Park alone (day or night)?

    If an authentic space for seekers were to be, I could go there, have a chai, see a picture of Osho, perhaps talk to a stranger or an old friend, listen to a discourse, or maybe do some dynamic meditation. The crazy thing is these type of basic ingredients do not cost that much. We have lost the way. Not a space exists on this planet for souls like me that love crazy people like Osho. You may say I am wrong, and invite me to your place with welcome arms. You may say come and sit down and have a chat and meet my friends. I may say that I am looking for Osho’s hidden truth and am not in the mood. Do you see how something essential is missing? An authentic friend may start out as a friendly stranger. The resort is an absurd indictment on all the powers that be. Cannot we do a little better?

    Yahoo
    Abhay

    http://oshobuddhism.blogspot.com

    click on “osho resort” for the antithesis of Osho

  53. Kranti says:

    ” And now, all Tom, Dick and Harry has become a Guru, after reading Osho books or listening his discourses :”

    this may be true.. But what we were discussing is the reach of these books to a notmal huamn being struggling to free himself from conditionings..the more we speak against new style of publication the more we degrade numorous ordinary people who need help on awareness.

    Talking about how great my master is and how cheap other teachers are not very concious approach.. Osho is Osho.. true.. No one deny it..But saying things like my master can speak for 3 hours and other can speak for 1 hour only is very childish , school boyish approach..

  54. Kranti says:

    ” Kranti, if you could read Hindi or in that sense If all His lovers could read Hindi…”

    Very very true.. people who cant understand Hindi surely missed out a lot of fire power in the early days of Osho.. But thats life.. I am atleast greatful that i was receptive to Osho later on and that has freed me from conditionings to a large extent..

    ” It makes me faint when i see His disciples clapping after selling few books of a world’s formost spiritual master”

    Disciples are disciples ..They are proud of whatever they are doing.. If someone can reach out to ten people and be satisfied then the why not the organization shouldnt feel proud for reaching out to millions using internet and new age books?

    ” without bothering that master has a possibilty to have half the country behind Him”

    By this i understand you mean large number of people.. But thats what they are reching out to..aren’t they? Ofcourse interms of how they should do it is a point where idealogical differences are there and thats why we are all here in this forum expressing various views.

  55. Prem Abhay says:

    I did not appreciate the suggestion that I and Harri Om are the same person…I do not know why I just said that. ATLEAST here is another theory…Harrhi Om and Sharhiar hare the saim people.

    VERY VERY VERY IMPORTANT:

    Straight and not to the point…there are some pretty smart people here engaged in a linguistic game.

    If you change the style, change the grammar, or even fix up spelling errorrrs, than you MayBee destroying the most important part of this game. An editor does not know when a misspelling is forrr eggsample intentiaonal or an mizzztake. There is know way of knowing. Also, if it is written by a Master than it is very likely that it is not a mistake. The subtle use of a particular word or style is for an essential reason. Also, if people mayke mizzztakes it can also help reveal something about them. THIS IS WHY YOU CANNOT EDIT OHSO’S wORDS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    YAHOO, LOTS OF LOVE, LAUGH OUT LOUD, CHEERS, AND LUV

    perhaps what i said about intentional linguistic patterns does not apply to the current SITUATION

    YEHAA
    Aboy

  56. shantam prem says:

    Kranti..
    The point is His books were always available to people. This is what chinmaya was saying, one could buy the book in 3 Rupees.
    OFI is not doing something extra ordinary in this context.
    On the contrary they have turned the pilgrimage into the market experience. Their Osho books are few of the escort girls in a big company. Not only girl, the middle age woman, the experienced one but sorry, cannot show her face.
    Books Books Books—

    Ask any street book seller in India. People buy ten thousand times more books of Paulo Coelho than all the combined gurus, other than Echhart Tolle.
    These two writers don’t have a channel of dedicated disciples who boast about the impact of their books. But Life has given an inbuilt intelligence, people know what they want to buy.
    J Krishnamurti was churning out the books and they were and they are published as per his teachings.
    Osho was not just churning out the books but had dared to create a Ashram, far beyond all the ashrams. The whole process was chosen and developed by Him.
    It was attracting not just masses but the educated one, who were looking for a radical new approach.

    He was living amongst his people.

    To turn the whole process into a book distribution channel…and yes books create a longing, a understanding the way pornos create surge of libido!

    Can they replace the real experience. Can the real physical experience replace the experience of love , can arrange marriage replace the marriage?

    If books could have turned the sick relations, sick being into healthy creatures, world would have already turned into heaven.

    Osho had the clue–books, discourses, meditation techniques, groups and therapies and an atmosphere of the ashram, which one could trust….
    I bow down before this master (sorry, i cannot say master of the masters), who not only wrote the chemistry books but created a best equipped laboratory of all times.
    Osho gave to the earth, what a human being could give. If we fuck this all off…it is not His problem, but problem of those mouses, who think they have become the scientists!

  57. shantam prem says:

    PS_ and it is my problem, being part of the vision. Like a poor share holder, i may have only 10 shares in a multi billion doller company, but still get a legal right to sue the directors if instead of producing life saving medicines, they use the resources to produce tobacco products.
    OFI is doing this and few small share holders will protest till the company charter is not implimanted in words and in spirit.

  58. Prem Abhay says:

    Shantam you say that “whiterobe meeting from the ashram can be telecasted live via internet.”

    Where did you get such a crazy idea? It is a nice idea if the Master is in the body. Adi Da (‘Bubba’ Daa Free John) used the internet in this way, and to much benefit. However what is the point telecasting a live streaming of a recording? Sounds a bit weird to me. Have you not gotten over the fact that Osho has moved on?

    Yahoo
    Abhay

  59. Prem Abhay says:

    Shantam what you are saying about Paulo Coelho and Eckhart Tolle is critical for understanding the conduct of Osho International Foundation (OIF). Amrito is fond of saying how hard it was to attract publishers for Osho’s books. Now, after all the hard work there seems to be some degree of success on a global platform. However see how just one book by Paulo Coelho or Eckhart Tolle takes the planet by storm. There writings are immeasurably spiritual uplifting to so many. Why is this so? The reason is known only to each of the millions of people that simply choose to purchase these authors few books. It remains a mystery why with ease these authors – without going for cut-outs or abridgements or compilations – have had extensive world-wide success. What OIF have had to do for decades is push and push Osho’s books into the market. In the end heavily edited compilations was the only way to achieve some degree of success.

    The apparent success of Osho books by OIF has occurred through heavy editing and pushing of the product. OIF unsuccessfully tried to sell Osho’s books. In selling the core idea is to make the customer buy what you have. In marketing the core idea is to provide what the customer wants or needs. If the customers don’t like what you have and you want to stay in business then you will need to change the product. OIF have done this and to some extent this is working – though it is not clear that it is working as much as they would like to make out. However the extent to which the product has had to be changed and the effort gone into pushing the product makes for some very pertinent questions. It seems to me offensive that a person like Osho has been involved in this process of changing the product to suit the customer.

    The intense need of Osho disciples within OIF to make the publication a global success tells more about their only psychological deficiencies rather than the popularity or not of Osho books. Every disciple has to have their Master be the greatest Master of all time because their Master is the reflection of their own ego. It is the same with publication of the Masters books. If the books enjoy world-wide success, the disciples become intimately part of this success: the status, the power and influence, and the financial wealth. OIF may say that through there hard work success is finally being achieved. However I am of the view that this very need for such hard work reveals a different truth. There is an unhealthy excess drive to push Osho books to global status.

    Of course you may say it is an interesting psychological theory, where is your evidence. The evidence is in the level and type of editing that have been needed for what appears to be only a limited success. The evidence is in the seemingly effortless success of other spiritual authors. The evidence is in the type of person Osho was. I simply cannot imagine Osho ever being part of this process: the process of more and more editing to find the right mixture of words that people would like to read. How absurd it is to think that Osho was trying to feed people words that they liked to read.

    Paulo Coelho and Eckhart Tolle have a style and content that a global audience has instantly been drawn to. Osho on the other hand, despite the number of publications, has historically not enjoyed anywhere near the success. In order to try and change the situation OIF has crucified Osho’s words. One never knows the ebb and flow of popularity that Osho may enjoy over the coming centuries. However the current spike in popularity is a temporal success that endeavours to destroy Osho’s timeless message.

    Yahoo
    Abhay

    http://oshobuddhism.blogspot.com

  60. Shahriar says:

    Agreed Prem Abhay.