An Appeal from Swami Narendra Bodhisatva for the Resurrection of the worldwide Osho-Movement
The History
At the foothills of the eternal Himalayas from Sept.26 to Oct.5, 1970 Osho held a Meditation Camp in Kulu-Manali (Himachal Pradesh). On September 26, He initiated His first group of disciples, which he calls “neo-sannyas.” His version of this ancient Hindu institution is radically different from the tradition, where the seeker renounces all possessions, is celibate, and lives on what he or she is given by those who remain engaged in society. As Osho begins to define “neo-sannyas”, His challenge to the historical tradition becomes increasingly clear.
1970: A New Definition of Sannyas
Osho’s sannyasins were asked to wear shades of red and orange. They also receive a necklace from Osho, known as a mala, which consists of one hundred and eight beads plus a locket with Osho’s picture. In addition, Osho gives each sannyasin a new name. The new name includes a prefix, common to all—“swami” for men and “ma” for women.
“When I give you a name, I give a name for certain reasons, for certain qualities that I see in you, for certain possibilities that I see in you, for certain characteristics that are already there – and all these become associated.”
Osho has given us a new identity, individuality and freedom through wearing red or orange dresses/robes. But we have lost it in due course by the wrong propaganda of our own priests and politicians. We could regain our lost identity, individuality and freedom by wearing maroon dresses and robes. We could make a conscious decision to devote at least one hour each day for an Osho meditation (whichever technique you like most) or you could sit silently for one hour, if you feel so. You must be remembering how friendly and homely we felt whenever and wherever we met in those years.
September26th, 1985
To save the city of Rajneeshpuram (Oregon, USA) in certain unavoidable circumstances Our Beloved Master Osho said:
“And that is, from today, you are free to use any colour of clothes. If you feel like using red clothes that is up to you.”
“The second thing: you return your malas – unless you wish otherwise.
October 8th, 1985
Osho said in discourse:
“… You have been clapping because I have dropped red clothes, malas. And when you clap, you don’t know how it hurts me. That means you have been a hypocrite!
Why have you been wearing red clothes if dropping them brings you so much joy? Why have you wearing the mala? The moment I say, you rejoice. And people rushed to the boutique to change their clothes, they have dropped their malas.
“But you don’t know how much you have wounded me by your clapping and by your changing.
“Now, I have to say one thing more, and I would like to see whether you have guts to clap or not: that is, now there is no Buddhafield. So if you want enlightenment, you have to work for it individually, the Buddhafield exists no more. You cannot depend on the energy of the Buddhafield to become enlightened.
“Now clap as loudly as you can, CLAP! …
“Now you are completely free: even for enlightenment only you are responsible. And I am completely free from you.
“You have been behaving like idiots!…
“And this has given a good chance to see how many people are really with me…
Before leaving His body Osho suggests that maroon robes help us in meditations. It is the search of ten thousand years of Tibetans that the Maroon color is immensely helpful in meditation.
It is a rare phenomenon in the whole history of consciousness that Master of Masters Osho gave us a simplest device/way to contact Him exactly at 7.00 p.m. by wearing white robe wherever we are through “Osho White Robe Brotherhood.” Even if the Osho-sannyasin is alone then too it is possible to contact Osho exactly at 7 p.m. through Osho White Robe Brotherhood.”
On 10th April 1989, Osho gives His last discourse: “This moment you are the most blessed people on the earth. Remembering yourself as a Buddha is the most precious experience, because it is your eternity, it is your immortality.
It is not you; it is your very existence. You are one with the stars and the trees and the sky and the ocean. You are no longer separate.
The last word of Buddha was Sammasati. “Remember that you are a Buddha – Sammasati.”
Our Beloved Master Osho Left His body on 19th Jan.1990 but He did not leave any instructions regarding Maroon robe/dresses or White Robe. But some powerful section of so-called Osho-sannyasins have completely changed His Sannyas Movement by saying that wearing mala and maroon dresses are not necessary now at any time.
Ninety-nine percent of so-called neo-sannyasins have dropped completely malas and sannyas names. In the West so-called sannyasins and group-leaders have dropped malas and sannyas-names! Group leaders still conducting the same groups and therapies without taking the name of our Beloved Master Osho!
Osho in His last discourses on Zen (Aug.-Sept. 1988) says repeatedly:
1. Can we celebrate ten thousand buddhas?
2. Can we celebrate the gathering of ten thousand buddhas?
3. Can we celebrate the meeting of the buddhas?
4. Can we celebrate the assembly of the buddhas?
5. Can we celebrate the gathering of the buddhas?
6. Can we celebrate the ten thousand Buddhas’ resurrection?
Similar statements are given by Osho in different series on Zen in 1988. Please think over this again and again as osho-sannyasins that can we celebrate the resurrection of ten thousand buddhas? Moreover could we wear mala over maroon dresses (pants & shirts, jeans & shirts, salwar & kameez, sari or whatsoever you like to wear in maroon shades as we were using earlier red or orange to become friendly and homely anywhere and everywhere. We understand that it is courageous and challenging as it was in early days of neo-sannyas movement, but we are sure it will help us in our inner growth and meditation. We feel it is not impossible to wear mala and maroon dresses but we are certain that it will be immensely helpful to create buddhafield/ energyfields all over the world.
Our Beloved Master Osho has said in 1984 “Man is now living in his most critical moment and it is a crisis of immense dimensions, either he will die or a new man will be born. We could accept the challenge and could make worldwide effort to transform human consciousness so that present man can die and a new man could be born out of his ashes. It is going to be a death and a resurrection. Unless human consciousness changes totally man cannot survive. As he is right now he is already outdated.
The crisis has already begun in the form of chemical and biological war, terrorism throughout the world with deadly weapons and now terrorists are in a position to acquire atomic bombs and other atomic arsenals. There will be every kind of destruction on earth including natural catastrophes and man manufactured auto- suicidal efforts. In other words there will be floods which have never been known since the time of Noah, along with earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, droughts, food shortages, epidemics and everything that is possible through nature. The earth cannot tolerate this kind of mankind any longer. There will be wars which are bound to end in nuclear explosions, hence no ordinary Noah’s arks are going to save humanity.
Osho’s sannyasins could create a Noah’s ark of consciousness remaining centered exactly in the middle of the cyclone.
“I say to you that except this there is no other way. Tokyo, New York, San Francisco, Los Angles, Mumbai etc. – all these cities are going to disappear. And the holocaust is not going to be confined to certain places. It is going to be global so no escape will be possible. Moreover Osho has said one enlightened Osho sannyasin cannot avoid the global natural catastrophes and man manufactured auto suicidal efforts (biological, chemical, atomic war), at least 200 enlightened Osho sannyasins are needed. Our Beloved master Osho left behind him ten thousand buddhas although at the moment they are not alert, aware, awake. And also there is an equal possibility of a chain reaction of buddhahood, if at least 200 Osho sannyasins are enlightened.
I would like my people at least, not to waste time in postponing their own growth–OSHO
We request all Osho-sannyasins and Osho-lovers to devote at least one hour in meditation (whichever technique they like) or to sit for Osho White Robe Brotherhood or to sit silently doing nothing. We could connect ourselves daily with Osho either by reading his books or listening His audio or video discourses and the last and the best is to meditate.
“My sannyasins have to become burning torches moving around in the world, to share their fire with anyone who is ready.” – Osho
Beloved sannyasins, it is our humble request, but you are absolutely free to agree/ disagree/ criticize/ protest or whatsoever you feel…
Swami Narendra Bodhisatva & Osho- sannyasins from different cities of India.
Osho Om Bodhisatva Commune
108, Post Office Road, Clement Town
DEHRADUN—248002 Uttarakhand (India)
Phones: 91-135-2642535/6537071
Fax: 91-135-2640654
Email: oshoom33@indiatimes.com
Websites: www.oshocommune.org, www.oshobodhisatva.com
Our two websites are already on the internet but soon we are going to launch a new website www.oshopilgrimage.com which will cover Kuchwada (Osho’s birthplace), Gadarwara (where Osho stayed almost ten years and completed His primary, middle and higher secondary education), Jabalpur (where Osho became enlightened under the Maulshree tree on 21st March 1953 ) did His graduation, became professor. The world famous waterfall flowing through 500 feet high marble rocks on both sides of river Narmada is here. Osho loved this place very much.
Narendra, your argument has a technical problem. The problem is that the robes started off (red) orange, and then were changed to maroon. Unless you are colour blind these two colours are distinctly different. Because they are distinctly different, anyone arguing in support of one of these (in the name of Osho) will have the problem that there is a direct counter from Osho himself. This is his legacy. You cannot make a religion out of his words for the contradictions are in themselves the koan. In the same way you cannot even make one correct colour for robes.
If you want to start a second revolution there is another technical problem. Also it is a little more serious then colour codes. The Osho sannyas world is full of people arguing their way in the name of this or that Osho quote. You yourself are another example, though I commend you for also expressing your own point of view. However if you want to start a revolution, how is it to have a unifying direction. Osho is unique in the history of sannyas for creating so many dramas. Since he left the body the fighting seems to have increased not abated. So how is that we are all going to see other people in maroon with mala, and immediately run up and give them a big hug. This seems a little naïve on your part.
You talk about a Noah’s ark of sannyas. Right now the level of consciousness of many Osho sannyas groups are lower than humanity as a whole. The Ranch transformed into a murderous regime not a mystery school. The truth of the Pune resort and the latest version of the Inner-Circle (and OIF) are no different. All the fundamentals of religious terrorism were with Sheela and her gang. The people have changed but the fundamentals are still the same.
About the end of the world, you are not making it clear what Osho is quoting and what you are yourself saying. Hence there is an unfortunate and confusing overlap. I hope this is not a sign of your part in the coming revolution.
You request me to meditate. I suppose that this request is backed up by another Osho quote? I request that you not interfere in my life.
Why does not the pilgrimage include The Ranch and Pune ashram?
http://oshodemocracy.blogspot.com
Your example of people dropping their robes and mala at The Ranch is a good one. Have you been taking notes from Jayesh? It is not the robes or the mala that are important in this example. What matters is the hypocrisy. To make an example of this situation the way you have done is deceptive. It is precisely this that so many sannyasins have done ever since Osho left the body. Finally it is not the line of argument that you propose, it is the deception. Just like it is not whether Jayesh smashed the pagoda down for Him, it is why. It is not whether Osho sannyasins can come on pilgrimage to Osho’s Samadhi, it is why not.
Great!!! Go ahead and create a new religion called Oshoism.. Day will not be far off when some idiot builds a temple for Osho and another idiot creates worshipping & pooja..We have anyway Osho bhajans in some places..
This is exactly what Osho tried to stop happening and in my opinon Jayesh and Amrito also tried their best to avoid that happening ..atleast in Pune if not worlwide..People say they are paranoid..they are not..One look at this thread and any one with basic intelligence will understand their concerns were genuine.. Given a free hand & support people like Narendra will create a religion within no time..
Now i understand , people like Jayesh and Amrito seems to have understood Osho better than others.. I can understand when Swami Keerthi talks about certain balance between head & heart .. But certainly not these kind efforts ..What the last few threads are suggesting is either highly political or foolishly religious..
Get on with life guys.. there is no place for mass religions anymore.. Drop this ideas of meditating and saving the earth from earthquakes..You cant meditate with such goals.. . Leave those worries to life and change yourself.. Osho wanted individuals to change the Inner, not the outer world..
Bye..
My God…. the more i travel the world the more i feel, how beautiful and meaningful Osho’s vision for a better life can be, The commune created by Him was a milestone, it could have infected the world without creating the mass religion…
But His own people are not getting it. The color blinds.
Kranti is right.
I have been out for a while… and this gets weirder with time.
I am only waiting for someone to come out saying that if we REALLY want to follow Osho´s way we should pay attention to what he did not his words… so let´s all dress up with fancy robes and funny hats ( osho dhara is already doing it)…. and look like “star trek drag queens” and… move and dance like a puppet (osho never had a good sense of dancing).
For once, well perhaps twice, I agree with kranti.
why don’t we all leave us all alone…
anthony
Kranti you present an interesting argument justifying the actions of Amrito and Jayesh. Of course is it not the most fundamental stance of Osho that no religion be created out of him: after all he spent all his time condemning all the past religions, didn’t he?
Osho lives up to his enigmatic contradictions by both condemning worship, and being one of the most worshipped religious figure’s of our time. You might argue that he was trying his very best to stop this worshipping taking place. If you do so I do not envy your task.
If you look at Jayesh’s writings he (not He) brings a distinctly religious flavour (taint) to his (not His) language by using capital “H” to refer to Him (Osho). Jayesh appeals to peoples religious inclinations and at the same time proclaims that he is protecting Osho’s vision from religious zealots.
Religious leaders become fundamentalist and attract fundamentalist religious zealots when they adopt a narrow and unchanging doctrine. Have a good like at the way OIF, Pune resort, and the Inner-Circle is run. Are there freedoms for people to openly express their points of view? Would it change anything even if that were so?
Unfortunately I have to admit that Anthony reminds me of something strikingly important that he (not He) has said. At The Ranch a journalist was visiting, and Osho (Bhagwan) asked a public relations sannyasin to shake the journalist up with a few shocking comments. The sannyasin simply said to Bhagwan that ‘no, that was not her way’. Did Bhagwan then kick her out of The Ranch for disobeying His orders?
At the Pune resort for example if you do not make the Zorba Restaurant and the Cappuccino Bar look exactly zen in appearance you get into trouble. What the heck is zen in appearance? Oh that’s right I will go and ask Him (Jayesh and Amrito).
Funny enough at the other extreme are religious zealots like Nayendra. For him, rather than being anti-religion and zen, you have to where maroon, a mala, give hugs, and meditate at least one hour a day – all this meanwhile knowing that the end of the world is nigh. Hence in the old days you would say that there is likely to be a religious war soon coming – all this of course in the name of Him (Osho); and all this after only twenty years since He left His body! Unfortunately it also is that so many nice people (people genuinely drawn to Osho) get caught up in the middle. Just see the utter stupidity.
At one extreme Narendra and his friends get their energy from the belief in a narrow religious ideal. At the other extreme we have Jayesh and his friends who believe they get their energy from understanding and insight into Him and His work. You see Jayesh believes that Osho’s presence is more available to him (and everyone else who is similarly in tune) since Osho left the body. This is an utter lie. You do not even need to be Enlightened to know such a lie. People with a little sensitivity can feel other peoples energy. With a little more sensitivity the average sane and sensitive person can work out that Jayesh is deluded.
It may not be the end of the world – that depends on issues to do with Iran, Burma, North Korea, northern Afrika, and China. However there may be an impending disaster of sorts in the name of Osho if religious zealots do not soon get the joke. Also, there are no signs that they will get the point.
Nayendra and the gang, if you want to have it your way fine, but do not involve Osho. Jayesh, Amrito, and the gang, if you want to have it your way fine, but do not involve Osho. Then, anyone that comes to you will do so because they will be similarly ignorant and violent. At least this will separate out the sincere seekers from the religious extremists. In this way Osho and people drawn to him and his teachings will have a chance of a better tomorrow.
The gangs will just be one of a growing collection of religious extremists groups. In this way law enforcement organisations will at least know who you are, and hopefully they will stop you from committing acts of terror and send you to jail for a very long time.
http://oshodemocracy.blogspot.com
Harri Om
I am not defending anyone’s action here..And Jayesh & Amrito dont need my justifications.. I dont fool myself
All i said is their conerns seems to be genuine..this thread is one example of what can happen
I have respect for Naredndra’s individual way of relating to Osho..same way everyone including Jayesh will have their way of relating to Osho..Whether it is by putting a capital H or something else..
The issue is when one tries to create a mass following around a certain belief..like Narendra’s interpretation of Maroon robe & mala..I certainly dont want to roam around all the time in marron robe.. i like jeans , t-shirts and I dont want to pigeonhole myself into one way of living..thats against what Osho taught.. In my undertanding Osho used robe & mala as tools to disconnect you from past identities and create a collective energy among His people..But i am not going to roam around in the streets of Delhi in a robe and do marketing for Osho movement
I started paricipating in these threads with an intention to understand the differences of opinions and after seeing diverse threads my understanding has matured.. I also moved to discuss about the administrative side of Pune then again realized the time is not ripe for Organisms..the day to day management is stll influenced by visions and it seems it is not possible to provide a Spiritual Infrastructure where people with all kinds of approaches can come together..We still are not able to disconnect vision from administration..and thats how things are.. It is unfortunate that we were not able to create that kid of balance .. The very need for creating a Oshoworld & Osho Nisarga due to idealogocal differences shows us we are not ready for Oganisms..Inspite of what Osho taught we still have ‘ right approaches’ & ‘not so right approaches ‘..
May be this is the need of the time.. People still need centers haing different approaches , head oriented , heart oriented etc.etc.if thats what people need then Harri Om, who are we ( you and me ) trying to argue and establish something else..
As anthony rightly & beauifully said..
‘ why don’t we all leave us all alone…”
one more point on this subject…
Osho clearly did not want people dressed in maroon and wearing malas outside the ashram. he was very specific about the robes being used only in the campus… he did not even want people wearing them in the meditation centers. regarding the mala. he said just to use it for meditation and in the privacy of their room. Not anywhere else.
I clarify this because narendra is deeply misunderstanding the whole story. I agree with Kranti that i do not think jayesh and Am,rito are paranoid, they just see the risk of boosting a religious approach. Narendra is a proof of that. and he has been with osho since woodlands in bombay… and no understanding… Just attachment to symbols… and thinking that is what osho meant by spirituality…. sad… and to get paranoid.
Anthony,
For one reason or another, harri Om may not show his face but his anger and rage is somehow justified.
If you think Narandra’s approach is not right but Jayesh-Amrito team is doing fine, you are free to have your opinion. We all have our little vested interests.
One thing is clear, World at large care a shit about the whole Osho movement, and those who were once part of this experiement are also going there way, in the middle of the crowded streets.
Dear Harri Om, your presentation are very true to the heart, and please come out with your true picture and face. How does it matter, death is waiting us for us all, we are standing in a circle. Make clear to all your inside/outside. Be realistic. at least being disciple of an enlightened Master………osho………Luv
Chinmaya I shall upload a picture of you if you like.
Shantam your tone has taken an aggressive and unintelligent turn – in general and in particular towards me, though it does not matter because I do not exist. Your comments bounce around the universe and end up coming back home to meet your own discontent and rage.
Kranti, I do not mind if Jayesh likes to relate to Osho with a capital H. What concerns me is that he wants to relate to everyone else by using this capital H.
Kranti and Anthony, I too agree on the point that Jayesh and Amrito are not paranoid about the potential for Oshoism becoming the next foolish religion. They are creating it already. What need is their then for paranoia?
Osho spent as much time praising the world’s great religions as he did condemning them, and this includes Christianity. He pointed to the good qualities and he condemned the bad. Essentially what he condemned is the blind adherence to dogmas that were imposed from above by holy perverted saints and priests. This key quality is in my opinion also present in what Jayesh and Amrito are trying to propagate.
Jayesh and Amrito say they are fundamentally against making a religion out of Osho. However they have the key ingredients of a religion, all the negative ones that is. They are assuming the status of spiritual leadership. Read anything written by Jayesh. It cannot be denied, capital H or not. They are dictatorial and lack compassion – read about the state of the resort. Their followers adopt blind beliefs. It might be that their belief is that Christianity and politicians are bad. Their followers have also shown a tendency towards religious intolerance and violence.
The content of the belief matters not. Their followers are lacking basic intelligence and the ability to have a common-sense view of reality. They are the sheep being lead by the blind, as has unfolded in all the great religions. Just look at Islam. In a few thousand years from now the lineage from Jayesh and Amrito will have created another great historical religion. However the people who have the integrity and awareness to live the truth they have come to know in their own heart and being shall be known to the world as the Osho Sufis. This is of course if the collective that is trying to rule by the imposition of their misunderstanding of Zen is allowed to impose its dictatorial will. No doubt the crowd shall need also to consume the new religious dogma. Finally the Osho Sufis of this world shall need also to not be heard.
Since I have been commenting and following this space, I have noted that people have presented many different points of view. The dialogue has allowed a deeper questioning and clarification, however something is missing. Of course Narendra has demonstrated the dangers of Osho becoming a typical religious movement, however this is not what has been missing. What is missing is a sincere and consistent response from the perspective of the collective of Osho International Foundation (OIF), the Osho Inner-Circle, and Osho International Meditation Resort, Pune, India.
I can accept that the collective considers that to engage in this space would be degrading. I can also accept that the collective consider a lot of what is written here to be at best totally incorrect, and at worst outlandish and slanderous. However where can I read about the collectives position. For example, where can I read about why the pagoda was destroyed, or why it is acceptable for people to drinking contaminated drinking water, or the official reason why some notable figures have been banned? I have heard much from Osho World about the issue of editing of books. I have not heard the official explanation of Osho International Foundation’s position. Of course on this point no doubt the collective has a unified view that has been disseminated to its constituents. However has this been disseminated surreptitiously, and if so why? We live in the age of the internet. It seems reasonable to me that I could at least read about important decisions made by the collective. Of course better would it be that there was opportunity for dialogue and feedback.
The collective has many people that clearly agree with their position. Likewise there are many people that disagree with their position. However for those that agree, have they been actively engaged in what has been happening. Have they felt and been free to express their view? Have their views been heard? Do they know what they are agreeing to? Do they too live in fear? Also, it is difficult for people that disagree to remain in touch with the current status of goings on in the collective. Hence their arguments can become out of date and therefore seem out of touch. In this way the collective can easily undermine opposition by pointing this out. However this belies the truth of the broader situation.
I know that much of what has been written recently in the comments of this space is a powerful truth. It is something that the collective will be vociferously engaged in countering and annulling. However not a direct word has been shared in this, or any other general space (that I am aware of). Please take a little courage and share your secret little emails and meetings. Is it that you are a little shy? Amrito walks around like he owns the resort. Jayesh walks around like he owns the Osho movement. The collective envisages owning the world. Now is not the time to be shy.
http://oshodemocracy.blogspot.com
Just by repeatedly telling they are creating a religion will not make it true.. At the most Jayesh and Amrito can stripe all the larger than life image of Osho and make him a Intelligent and awakened human being who has 600 titles to his credit.. Thats it..
Anyway thats what will happen to any awakened being in future.. If it happens to Osho there is no harm.. Infact thats how Osho wanted to be remmebered.. just as a friend..not as a holy man..he never supported that kind of bullshit
No one is going to hang around awakened beings washing their legs and drinking it as holy water ..those days are gone.. In India still there are people who do such propaganda about enlightened people.. Recently i came across an interview by a so called sage ..He was indicating how someine is a great avatar and the reason he quoted is when he tried to touch that person leg he couldnt see flesh and bones and his hand went across the legs.. This type of stuff is degrading other human beings and is out of the window.. If things are allowed to degrade 50 years down the line people will be bullshitting similar stories about Osho also
By nature of what Jayesh & Amrito are doing they can not create religion.. On the one hand Harri Om you condem them for being head oriened and other hand say they are creating a religion..Highly contradictory..
Other day i saw Osho rajneesh speaking to a group of people in Europe and he was calling all the people who meditate as Idiots..One person from the group raised the hand saying he meditates..and he responded by saying those who meditate are idiots.. He may have his context.. But he is the guy whose example you took to prove that some violence has happened to him.. When i pointed out that it happened decades ago and that too by people who are different you said it doesnt matter when it happend..This is how we look to support our views..
Just stick to few idealogical & administrative differences that can be ( not SHOULD be ) sorted out and it will ease lot of pain..apart from that there seems to be no probelms..like the way things are getting projected..
” However where can I read about the collectives position ”
So Harri Om..you have been calling them criminals and all that kind of stuff without hearing / reading their position? What kind of fair communication it is..
And who are THEIR followers anyway? I have not come across such followers.. You also categorize them as unitlligent and sheep? Which category of people you are referring to ? Can you be specific?
Do you mean to say people are following Jayesh and not Osho..? Do you mean to say thats enough to create a religion?
Is it not so obvious that you had been saying things which are just mental stuff..not backed up by facts..
Swami Rajneesh was the slow waking Indian swami in Pune 2. He was considered a harmless nut at that time. But I witnessed a physical attack on him in front of Krishna House by some German sannyasin with big shoulders. He blew off on Swami Rajneesh for his slow walking. It was an ugly scene, but it might have left a strong impression on SR.
Harri Om,
May be my tone has taken an unintelligent and aggressive turn and without doubt, there is a rage inside.
If you are with Osho out of love and motivation for years and don’t feel the rage, the way movement has taken a turn;, than two possibilities are whether someone has gone beyond all the feelings or one was only paying the ticket price to enjoy the show.
After the basic survival instincts, many people get the longing to relate with something which is bigger than life.
For more than 1750 years, Christianity has played this role in the west. Even those who feel ashamed to be called Christians have these genetic imprints in their brain, whether from parents side or through many lives, if hypothetically they existed.
In the Indian context, Master or Sadguru was that bigger than life force, people want to relate. Naturally, this institution has also been misused as hundreds of ambitious souls could get the kick by creating a mass following.
Even a well read and intellectually highly developed Master like Osho has glorified this Master-Disciple thing in hundreds of talks.
As this is not the age to follow even masters blindly, and to follow Osho blindly will be against the very teachings of him.( From now on, i don’t use capital H for him ).
As a human being Osho must be scrutinised the way He did with others. Osho cannot jump the queue because he is Osho.
In spite of all the imperfections, Osho is a master. The points raised by Andreas Roth in his essay can be accepted still the fact will remain, Osho is a spiritual master.
It was a bigger than life project for many to listen his call and participate at 17, koregaon park. The last three years of Osho at Ashram was the culmination point of his work. it was all arranged after learning the mistakes of the past experiences and it was not being done by breaking the laws of the land.
Just for example, every second weekend of the month, was arranged by him as a meditation camp. Even though everything was the same in Buddha hall like always still there was a rush of energy, people were eager to do meditation in a more intense way. Something was more than normal during these three days. Few years after his departure, this was abolished,
To see this vertical journey getting a normal horizontal turn by the people who seized the power, will create a rage anger and confrontation. Who will not feel the rage when someone sees that gardener has cut the roots but cleans the dust from the dying leaves regulary and also showers them too.
When your father leaves behind a joint venture of green car and few siblings turn this into a personal garage of repairing the old cars, few of us would like to ask about our inheritance.
I am utterly delighted to have rage in me. And feel jayesh Amrito team as one of the main reasons for this steep decline. They are the people who have cut many big trees planted by him and replaced them with flower pots.
Instead of following the precedents set by the master Osho, they are following the man Osho.
They are using all the legal and illeagl means without bothering that even Osho could not run away from his actions, their judgement time will also come.
As thoughtfully you have written-
“Your comments bounce around the universe and end up coming back home to meet your own discontent and rage.”
I think it is not just the comments but every action we take or every reaction we make comes back and i determined for every kind of repaying, this way or that way.
If people don’t like the words God or Parmatma, still one can say, there must be some highly Intelligent system working, which is as fair as laws of gravity.
As you have mentioned to Chinmaya, please download your photo. This simple gesture will go a long way.
Anand..Thanks for that info.. My point is it happened decades ago and you never know whether it is madness from one guy..We can not generalize a freak incident and use it an example for current issues..It only shows shortage of such things to show..
Do you mean to say people are following Jayesh and not Osho..?
Kranti, about the point above, i wish to add, as one sees in many reality shows on TV. many people with good voice sing the famous songs originated and composed and made famous by others.
It is a good entertainment, cheap entertainment to keep people glued to the tv but has nothing original, and no evolutionary value in it.
In these kind of programmes, judges mention something like,” it is a good interptation or sometime they say, ” it is even better than the original.”
Right now what we call Osho’s work, it is a interptation of Jayesh Amrito.
Narendra is playing his interptation in Dehradun before less than a doze people
Neelam does it in dharamshala before few hundred as she has a brand name and so on.
New people who buy the show ticket in the name of Live Osho at the main organisation, get the taste of this interptation of Jayesh-Amrito in the ashram.
Thanks God people in general are not stupid. Even these new people realise in few days, it is not an original show. it lacks many vital elements.
But Shantam.. The aspects related to Head Vs Heart , we discussed so much and we all understand and accept that as a current reality which has resulted in the creation of a Oshoworld and Nisarga.. We believed it will not happen with Osho but it has happened and there seems to be no way everything can be bridged..
With Osho gone things can never be the same and never be original… Thats what i feel.
With Osho gone things can never be the same and never be original… Thats what i feel.
Milkman rings the door. Gives usual two leters of milk to the house wife and takes a turn on his bicycle.
Woman calls back,” My god it is just water”.
Milkman comes back, looks and exclaims,” Sorry, madam. today i forgot to mix milk with the water.”
There is a limit of everything…..
As an institution, Osho’s people have broken all the records in degradation, inspite of having the best freezing technology.
When a first bach sannyasin Narendra’s article is published as,” An Appeal from Swami Narendra Bodhisatva for the Resurrection of the worldwide Osho-Movement.”
It is not even 20 years and we need a revolution to move a river going to the desert; something has gone fundamantally wrong.
Out of inbuilt indian politeness, Narandra may prescibe homemade solutions, deep down he knows too, it is a matter of over all reconstruction.
We believed it will not happen with Osho but it has happened and there seems to be no way everything can be bridged..
Than atleast we should give the benefit of doubts to those followers of religions who atleast continued the transmission of their values century after century.
After listening Osho, we are te most vocal criticques of the whole wolrd, its religion, politics, financial and family value system etc., and what we did and what we do….???
To criticise others but not one’s own party, is pure politics. It is ugly.
I think as a movement it is time to look introspectively.
It is time to put questions not on Krishna and Rama, Jesus or Buddha but Osho too.
and i am sure every master worth calling master will love this.
Harri om. I know you like this rajneesh fellow, however there are some things you should know about the pune reaction to him. It is not because they feel threatened by this “new buddha in the making”, but because he is confusing people.
He sent to all the meditation centers a glossy brochure of his work, even thpou many asked him not to do so. He called himself “osho rajneesh” and by doing so has confused many people who do not know that osho is dead and think that OSHO and this fellow is the same person. vatayana was personally involved because he woman called from munich desperate that she had invited osho rajneesh to lead an even at her place , think ing she was inviting the late Osho, when She saw they were not the same person she was aoutreged and threw him out. She contected osaho.com and came to vatayana.
Sw. rajneesh has the resources to sell his trip… but he is still an imitator. A firiend of mine who leads a mediation center in chile got into a heated discussion because he kindly asked rajneesh not to send his material,and rajneesh refused to do so. From first mails signed with love he wento into full rage when my friend confronted him with his not respecting his wishes.
Imitation is a deficiency trip. The only threat of this man is that he chooses to call himself Osho rajneesh (see youtube).And by doing so he is exploiting and misleading people interested in Osho.
If he would call himself sw. prabubahananda… noone would bother… just another swamiji in india. lift a stone and you find two.
Anthony, atleast we have one point to agree.
rajneesh or samdarshi or other Shitsang givers wil not be allowed at 17, Koregaon Park, even under my most linient admistration!
If you have not only gone healthy but claim to be a MBBS, than open your own clinic or hospital, why you want to come to the general OPD at the ashram.
many times these people say, we just want to visit Samadhi to convey our reverance to our head of the department, who made us good enough to inject people with neo age spirituality.
For that reason i think, fullmoon festival in July called Gurupurnima will be an exception than all the professionals claiming to be from his liniage can come, with their guys and girls with pump and show covered under the Shawls of humilty.
another point… Sw. Rajneesh is profiting from all the marketing and advertising that osho did during HIS lifetime…
At least have the guts to choose a different name for your product…
I feel that most of you are trying to protect the “image” of Osho or the “image ” of what he once was. WHY? This person is doing this. That group is doing that… They are all not following or are true to Osho’s “real” message….. blah blah blah… This guy swami rajneesh… I saw his picture and read his stuff just 2 months ago for the first time. I think I have at least some objectivity and fairness in my judgments and I think this swami rajneesh is a basket case!!! He’s now even trying to mimic Osho’s looks!!! Follow him if you want, or don’t. Some things are so obvious and if you get caught up with this guy’s image, well… it’s freedom of choice and may the force protect you. It also sounds like you all are desperately trying to protect and shield others from who you consider to be charlatans, just like a mother tries to protect her children. I’ve noticed in the course of my life and hopefully you have too, what can result from over-protective mothers. Please, just point out what you think you see is going on and leave it be. People will do what they will do and follow who they want to follow. Keep your advice as straight forward as possible without all the dramatics. Cheers!!
Kranti, the way Osho International Foundation is editing books seriously infringes on the integrity of Osho’s words. Hence I disagree with the statement that in the least they will be sharing with the world the message of a great enlightened one. Just look at the popularity of Dan Brown’s latest book The Lost Symbol. It is a tremendously popular fiction. The crowd is interested in fiction not truth. Osho’s books have been abridged to appease the big publishing houses that know how to appeal to a mass audience. Some people have commented that the flourishing of Osho to the main stream audience is anyhow not nearly as true as OIF is making out. Even if Osho becomes popular for a time, how long will it last? What happens when Dan Brown becomes unpopular and another fictional author enjoys acclaim and success? Osho is not one of these authors. He never wrote fiction, he only spoke of the truth. To abridge his works takes away its authenticity and integrity.
You say that Osho only wanted to be remembered as a friend and that he never supported any of the bullshit. This person spent much of his life travelling India has a spiritual teacher. In the beginning he wore the typical white apparel of Indian saints, and was known as Bhagwan. Just consider the manner in which he entered discourse, with all the chanting and mantras and gestures. Many spiritual teachers adopted the position of being a friend, and Osho is as far from this type of spiritual teacher as you can get.
About Swami Rajneesh, I did not say it does not matter when it happened. I state that because it happened many years ago, it shows that the (likely) systematic violence from management has been going on for at least that long. It is also that though some of the people are now different, some of the key figures are the same. This is the point. People like Jayesh and thugs like Dhyanesh are still operating under the same above the law system. So you are misinformed when you try and discount my example by saying that anyhow the people were different.
You say that by nature what Jayesh and Amrito are doing can not create a religion. On the surface it obviously appears that way. They also gain a lot of support, especially from Westerners, for appearing to adopt this position. I have spent much of my time presenting information and arguments that disagree with this. There is a subtle religious flavour to their approach. Sure, Osho the image will not be there for radical devotees to lose the plot. However Jayesh and Amrito are making decisions assuming the responsibility of spiritual leadership – a responsibility that Osho did not give them as leadership of the Inner-Circle administrative body. There are for example no practical, administrative grounds for the destruction of the pagoda.
Of course you do not agree with me on this point. If you are right then you are also right that Jayesh and Amrito will not create a disastrous religion. On this point I would argue then that it is a matter of semantics. They will not create a disastrous, new religion. What they have and will continue to create is a disastrous new global business. Just look at Pune resort. Prem Abhay has clearly documented a state of severe neglect that has and continues to impose a serious threat to the health and well-being of visitors and Osho sannyasins. If this model spreads globally, then I cannot see how such a business is any better then the worst mass religion.
I have used Swami Rajneesh as an example. Clearly he has adopted the position that meditation is his essential message. If he says that people who meditate are idiots so what. Is their something new in a religious teacher being contradictory? I am sure you would agree that Osho’s essential teaching was meditation. However he also clearly stated on many occasions that some people were either not ready for meditation, or that meditation did not suit them at the present time.
Kranti you regularly refer to my lack of documentation of facts. These are provided by people like Swami Rajneesh, Prem Abhay, Dhanyam, Keerti, and so many others. Have you not heard their voices. I have laid out a theoretical framework for the facts to fit into. This was my objective and I have clearly stated before that I am not in the business of detailing my specific situation because I have no intention of revealing my identity to a violent religious organisation.
Of course Jayesh and Amrito have nothing to do with the fact that people in maroon robes or with Osho sannyasin names verbally and physically threaten, and physically assault people. It is just business for them isnt’t it? Certainly it helps that Dhyanesh can order security guards rather than maroon robed sannyasins to carry out any needed assaults. Then it just looks like an organised criminal business rather than a violent religious movement.
Kranti I am not interested in facts, I am interested in truth and fictions. You ask where are the sheep. I ask how the collective gets the money to pay lawyers thousands of dollars an hour to fight Osho’s people. They in part get it from the Pune resort entrance fee payed by unsuspecting visitors tempted by a deceptive global marketing campaign, and by visiting sheep. Any person that has repeatedly gone to the Pune resort and has seen nothing other than flowers is either too deeply involved in meditation, or a sheep.
Anand you have witnessed one assault on Swami Rajneesh. I did not witness any attacks on Rajneesh, but was told about an incident that left Swami Rajneesh with the still visible scar above his eye. Perhaps that was the incident you witnessed. Many people who have been around when physical violence has occurred make the victim look like the aggressor – even Swami Rajneesh. You see in modern psychological terms it is justified to physically assault Swami Rajneesh because he is a nutcase who is just asking to get bashed up. There may be a connection there but that does not justify the assault. Thankyou for pointing out that this happened in Pune 2. Yes he was around for a time in Pune 1, but the really nasty things happened to him in Pune 2.
Shantam I remember Anthony writing from a seemingly detached uninvolved position, all this after working at the Welcome Centre. We do not like to be involved, and even when we are we say we are not. Many people consider this kind of detachment to be the same as a detached witnessing consciousness. It is a nice idea created by the mind so that it can pretend that firstly it is not involved, and secondly is actually getting somewhere in the spiritual domain.
Shantam I am utterly delighted by what you have written. The energy of rage is the power in us that is now no longer shut down. When a person changes from a ruler to a dictator, it is because their power has to come out more and more forcefully because something directly underneath is trying to push through: fear and inferiority. The same is for the crowd that accepts the tyranny. Their power has been taken away by the dictator. They have shut down their power and live in a contracted state of fear. Underneath however is a boiling energy which longs to return their dignity and self-respect. If the energy is suppressed long enough by the oppressor it becomes rage. Revolution follows dictatorship in this way. Once the rage has passed we have our power back, yet we are karmic criminals. Of course it would be much better to burn the rage in active meditation, and then channel the power back into a positive creative force that nonetheless challenges the entrenched tyranny.
The collective have made not just comments, but numerous acts of immense violence. That this returns to them is inescapable. It has nothing to do with you or me. Nor is it an external motive like vengeance. It is an internal reality. There is a saying that in China the people are now living too long – such that their passed actions are coming back to haunt them. The day shall come, whether it be sooner or later.
Shantam you are interested in my picture. We walk around looking at pictures of people yet have no idea who they are. The majority of people are incapable of reading anything about a person from their physical appearance. In fact it usually works that the physical appearance creates incorrect judgements about a person’s character. The words I have written are just a game. However my picture is more of one.
Kranti and Shantam, this idea of head and heart helps understand the situation. However, as Shantam’s anecdote explains, there is a limit to everything. A good business-person stays in their power and gets the maximum financial return for the investors. Fraud and racketeering also can get nice returns, but this is unethical, illegal, and criminal. People keep on saying that I am interested in politics. I am not interested in politics (even religious politics), I am interested in law.
Anthony I am already aware of the few things you have said about Swami Rajneesh. If you have read anything that I have written do you think it concerns me in the slightest that he creates confusion? Most people who are new to Osho are of the view that Osho.com, OIF, and Pune Resort are the sole and unified authority for carrying out Osho’s vision. You have issues with the way Swami Rajneesh approaches people. What about the way Pune management attracts people to a resort that has pitiful health and safety standards (despite claiming to be 5 star standard). I think it is that you have recently been to Pune resort, and in the monsoon too. Have you read anything that Prem Abhay has said about the water? Were you Welcoming people and then sending them to the nearest hospital? I hope you have not conducted a tour and personally told the people to drink the ‘drinking’ water.
As with the resort, the same is the case for people and centres around the world. Look at all the centres linked to the Pune resort through Vatayana and global connections. These outreach centres feed unsuspecting visitors into a supposed oasis that is actually the vortex for a criminality and negligence. Hence your comments about the supposed aggressiveness and persistence of Swami Rajneesh are misinformed.
It is intellectual people like you that continue to smile and welcome people to the Pune resort because you have not the intelligence to see the obvious, and then the courage to take a stand against the ongoing injustices. People like Dhanyam, Keerti, Swami Rajneesh and Prem Abhay have the courage to speak the truth. Of course this will mean they will be in the face of a lot of people that are either new to Osho, or have been fed lies by the establishment. This is either cold water in the face of the old (including you), or it serves as a warning to the unsuspecting new visitor.
Anthony you think Swami Rajneesh is the imitator. He is who he is. It just happens to be he is a lot like Osho. The imitation lies not with Swami Rajneesh and others like him. The hypocrisy lies with Jayesh, Amrito, and the rest of the gang
Anthony you say Swami Rajneesh is profiting. What do you think Jayesh, Amrito and the gang are up to? Your position is no different than the people that say ‘why you call yourself Rajneesh when your real name is Rajnish?’. The funny thing is that the real reason is because Osho (Bhagwan Rajneesh) himself changed Rajnish’s name to Rajneesh. Do you not get that? Swami Rajneesh is a lot like Osho. Swami Rajneesh, enlightened or not, is a devotee of Osho (Bhagwan Rajneesh). You say Swami Rajneesh calling himself Osho Rajneesh is deceptive. What is it then for Jayesh and Amrito to call their pitiful resort “Osho Resort”; how can these deceptive people have the gall to call their website “Osho.com”; how can OIF put Osho’s name as author to their cheap books?
Prem Bubbie makes another deep incision. If it is so obvious to Anthony and Vatayana and others that he (Swami Rajneesh) is a basket-case, what is the harm? If it is not so obvious then there may be something in it. I remember Prem Abhay always stating the same case. What is the harm of him standing (out of the way) and handing out Water Contamination Reports; after all, everyone knows that he is, among many other terrible things, a drug addict. Also, did Anthony read the details about Prem Abhay? He (Abhay) was physically removed from close to the resort apparently because he was blocking the entrance. However the truth of it was that he was initially out of the way, and was only close to the entrance because he was asked to wait there for Dhyanesh (and the security guards to come and assault him). It is most likely that Anthony has been fed similar lies by Vatayana.
The truth hurts and the crowd loves a good fiction.
http://oshodemocracy.blogspot.com
harri om,
I understand quite well that photos are just photos, whether they create reality or deception.
My point i that person like you, who write so forcefully, and truthfully about many points most of us will agree, it is a question of integration. Your photo will give a human face to your writing, you will not be than a ghost writer.
I love Proverbs but this one, “Everything is fair in love and war”, i disagree. Only the rightful means can touch the mark.
Even this one that awakened one can use all the means legal and illegal, make no difference has proved wrong.
Under the influence of his neo rich, American citizens Osho was tempted to obtain a green card through all the fraudulent means, at one time, he was even shown as the adopted brother of Sheela, that her father adopted Osho when he was a child!
In Astrological literature, planet Saturn does not bother who you are, Saddam or Bush, Krishna or Christ, awakened or sleep. Soul may remain untouched but earthly parts must follow the rules of the earth.
Somehow we all belive master liberates but reverse is also possible, master gets segued by the disciples.
Osho is a text book case. One of the most forceful master of all times, in the end becomes the puppet of His doctor and financier. This is the sad story.
‘ lift a stone and you find two”
Very true Anthony..thats the state of India and thats also the reason why we have such expectation of how a sage needs to be rsepected and worshipped..As long as Osho was in body he had his way..He was able to stop people from worshipping him . Although Harri Om points out that the earlier Osho liked chanting / mantras i dont think that is the core image of Osho..even if he started off like that he always deconstructed him image.. If Osho himself told all the dirty jokes as part of the desonstruction then we should we reconstruct his image again? But thats what is happening.
Harri Om..Compared to all your posts earlier your last post was less aggresive and more constructive way of presenting your views. Thanks. But they are your views as long as you rely on others facts. Anyway you admit you are not interested in facts but only in truth & fictions..I dont know how you diffferentiate your truth from others’ facts..and i also dont know why you value fictions so much..
Kranti, you say that Osho was able to stop people worshipping him. Are you trying to be a comedian? You think that in the beginning he constructed and in the end he de-constructed. The chanting and mantras and gestures I was referring to was at the beginning, in the middle, and at the end.
Osho was not so simple as you make out. To say everything in the beginning is to be dismissed and everything at the end is to be adopted is utter foolishness. Osho was not someone that learned along the way. Everything he spoke and did emanated wisdom. However your theory is what Jayesh and Amrito are pursuing – to their own downfall. Just look at the Orange people and compare them with the Maroon people. There is not much difference between the two cults.
Kranti I disagree that I am being less aggressive. I however do not agree that I am being aggressive in the first place, but I have not changed my orientation. Perhaps read on a little. Also, here is a little theory for you. If I start laying out a broad perspective, then hopefully others who know some facts will make them known. This in turn gives a covering to the structure that I make. Then I make more patterns and structures that in turn become filled out. In this way the truth comes to be known. It is a simple process. I do not have to be the bearer of all or any facts for this to take place. You have helped the process greatly…thanks very much and keep up the good work.
Kranti you want to know why I am interested in fictions. It is because so many ugly lies have been woven intricately around a structure of brazen criminality, and this has deeply hurt (physically and emotionally) so many innocent people. Also, if this structure of fiction is not taken down the possibility of much greater harm is to me apparent. Of course I am not talking about apocalyptic visions. The notion of such things is deeply troubling.
Anthony, lift a stone and you find two – hopefully they are diamonds or rubies or emeralds or sapphires. Lift the lid on the collective and you find two (and more)…bad apples!
Prem Abhay talks about the following incidents:
During early Pune 2, a man was over a period of many years drugging women. Also, there is an indication that early on there was a chance to stop this from continuing: the Pune 2 ashram was aware of one incident of a women being drugged. The women was sent to the local hospital, banned, and then had to leave the country. The man continued to drug women until he died a few years later (due to internal haemorrhaging from excess drug intake).
Also around the same time there was a man who abruptly left the ashram, changed his name and went into hiding: apparently fearing for his life. No-one has supposedly heard of him since.
Swami Rajneesh was also repeatedly threatened and assaulted in the early 90’s.
Prem Abhay goes on to tell about a person who approached him at the German Bakery. The European man said that back in Pune 1 a man had committed suicide, and that he had arrived first on the scene. However he told Prem Abhay that Dhyanesh tried to implicate the European man for murder when Interpol came to investigate.
http://oshobuddhism.blogspot.com/2008/09/tasty-morsels.html
I am interested in the man who changed his name and went into hiding. I have been told about the situation. From one account there is a German swami (Swami Manik) who knows the man in question (before he went into hiding). I was informed that Swami Manik has a website called “swami.de”. Prem Abhay seems to take the view that the man who went into hiding is innocent like him: perhaps he overhead something he shouldn’t have, or came to know something he was not supposed to.
I am not so sure about the missing swami’s innocence. You see as it has been explained to me, it was always clear that the missing swami had not and would not contact the police. One explanation is that the person(s) he feared would find out when the police started asking questions, and would therefore try and find him – knowing that he talked. I do not share this line of inquiry. More likely it is that this swami actually did something in the early 90’s, and that therefore to go to the police would be to admit to a crime. Also, it fits that what he did was at the request of a person or persons from the Pune 2 ashram.
Interestingly enough Anand witnessed a German man carrying out an assault on Swami Rajneesh for apparently walking too slow. What if this, or one of the other assaults on Swami Rajneesh, was carried out by the missing swami, at the request of Pune 2 ashram management? This line of inquiry fits the circumstances that I am aware of.
Even if Anand does not know the name of the German sannyasin with big shoulders who attacked Swami Rajneesh, perhaps Swami Rajneesh himself does. Does Swami Rajneesh know the names of the other people that carried out the assaults on him? Also, if it is the Swami Manik knows the name of the missing swami, it would be very interesting if there happened to be a match!
The incident(s) involving Swami Rajneesh that I was told about (I seem to recall) happened either outside Krishna House, or while he was walking around Buddha Hall. I understand that he was attacked without provocation, and received a deep cut above the eye, and had a significant amount of blood down his face. Swami Rajneesh, being the Osho devotee that he was, refused to let anyone other than Osho’s personal physician (Dr Amrito) stitch up the wound. However when Amrito attended the scene he simply told Swami Rajneesh angrily that he deserved everything he got. Swami Rajneesh had to go to the local hospital to get stitched up – such compassion, and from a medical doctor.
What the above example shows is a type of mentality and lack of empathy that justifies violent criminal acts. The same is with Prem Abhay’s situation. After the assaults on Prem Abhay he had a number of conversations and received numerous emails from sannyasins. The response was always the same: he was a fool and deserved what he got. What we are looking at here is psychopathy.
Supposed Osho sannyasins are not above the law. They may think they are so smart that they can work out the psychology behind certain social interactions (poisoning and physical assaults for example). However this does not mean that committing of such acts is acceptable. If you take this logic to the extreme we have it that it is acceptable to murder someone because they walk too slowly around Buddha Hall. With this mindset it also could be that many are involved or know about horrific acts of violence, yet feel no sense of remorse or moral responsibility.
Kranti and Anthony argue that Jayesh and Amrito and the collective are orientated towards a contemporary vision of Osho, and are categorically steering the Osho movement around problematic religious tendencies. I argue that the collective is a dangerous religious cult. The “Orange people” was a dangerous cult run by Sheela and her gang. The “Maroon people” are no different. The difference is that this time around Osho is not here to accept the blame. Also, his transcribed discourses are now known by the world at large to be visionary not criminally inspiring. It is not Osho, but rather the people that are drawn together to create a religious cult that is the problem. Sometimes these people get drawn to a psychopath (Shoko Asahara or Charles Manson for example). Other times they get drawn to a Master.
http://oshodemocracy.blogspot.com
what is up with u guys….so now u guys seem to know what should and should’nt be. why are u people worried bout others. worry bout yourselves. what u say aint gonna do shit…interesting to see all ur judgemental crap….Remember osho said be open…huh? ring a bell? why cant u be open….when u call the other person wrong u are actually being narrow minded and dogmatic urself…narendra or jayesh/amrito or whoever seems wrong to u coz u r narrow minded….u’re tryin to disect and analyze so and so with your puny logic, reason and useless-borrowed- knowledge…..basically narendra follows the way of Bhakti which can be really effective. if you are a little updated about quantum physics and all the new stuff that scientists are beginning to uncover.or if u’ve seen ‘what the bleep do we know?’ u may understand how the way of Bhakti should work. Regarding Jayesh/amrito i dont know much. i was just reading the hidden harmony and that book made it clear to me that there is no use tryin to analyse and judge anything at all….what is wrong according to me may be right for you and vice versa. eventually no one is right nor wrong. everything simply is. so instead of being narrow minded and closed why cant we be open. if narendra says something why not try it. haters of narendra have you ever tried meditating for atleast one hour everyday for atleast a month. probably not. n that is why u dont realise the truth behind his words. about the maroon robes and the white robe stuff narendra is talkin about may have some significance that your mind of borrowed knowledge cannot fathom…same for jayesh/amrito haters may be they are doin the right thing who knows. let them do what they r doin. in fact u guys should be helpin all these people out. they are atleast tryin to help others, what r u doin…try and lend a hand to people like narendra, Sw. arun (haha i know people out here just hate him), jayesh or amrito or tyohar etc….i’ve met narendra and arun in person quite a few times …they are very simple and loving people with genuine interest to spread the light. instead of wasting ur persuasive skills in trying to achieve bull here, why dont you try and persuade people to try out meditation or help’em realise that they are not the mind.
harri om. If you have read my comments, as you seem to have, then you must know that i have been critical to many ways of the pune resort style and management.
However ,i like the “de-guruing” attitude they have taken. I love the place… great for meditation and meeting beautiful friends.
I am not a sannyasin , so I have no concern about politics and the movement in the long run. I like what fits with me. I am not detached… i simply do not care about some things.
regearding the rajneesh fellow. I do not like him: I do not like people who are not themselves. i do not like people who try to cheat people, weather they are in pune management or in the moon. i do not like his lack of autenticity: I have been in pune I know the guy from the time he was the guy showing off walking slow.
And he does not “happen to look a lot like Osho”: actually physically he does not look like him. He imitates his gestures and physical expressions, like the movements of the hands, the position of the legs, etc. it is all very crafted and studied. Look at the old pictures in his webpage from the himalayas.
anyway,
greetings
However ,i like the “de-guruing” attitude they have taken…
Anthony this deguruing attitude is a total facade, it is ugly.
Deguruing attitude can take place, if you respect the master with all his human limitations.
it includes everything what we human do. We choose false friends, we choose false advisers and we give a bit of extra preferance to our friends who are bit richer, smarter and so on.
Osho never presented himself as a son or son in law of some higher force.
His human efforts of many lives, His search of many lives culminated in this life and he shared willingly, compassionately the art of inner journey.
He was so gracious to say something like, if i can have it, you can have it too. and many times he motivated us by saying, don’t worry, if you don’t awake today, it can be tomorrow. There are only seven days¨!
His story is a story of human endeavour and compassion and if you want to deguru Him, remember the blunders on the ways, lies on the ways and His complete dependence as a helpless broken and sick man on few reliable people.
and i have a doubt whether these gentlemen could ever understand the gestures and non verbal language of a man born, brought up in central India.
He may have read many contemporaries western scholars of his time but His food was always 100% Indian!
and any way, did He left the instructions to “deguru” him. in my humble eyes and ears, He has always presented himself as a mystic Master of a international mystery school. His was the poetic and spiritual way to create a global family.
Osho was a peak flower of a culture, and few from a one religion culture, become disciples and than with their invaders blood in veins, think they have got the yardsticks to interpretate the Truth..
Das kotzt mich an!
” Kranti, you say that Osho was able to stop people worshipping him. Are you trying to be a comedian?”
Osho was ZENnish during the end..What more do you want?
Idon’t know much about Zen, it was through Osho, i came to know this tradition.
But the way i have heard, In Zenish way too, there is a place for reverance, there is a sense of gratitude, there is a bowing down.
Before Osho was speaking on Zen, he was intimate enough with His people to mention that which so ever tradition He speaks on, he hangs his on coat on their hangers.
On the whole this string seems to be divided between those who support the Bhakti way, and those who support the Jayesh/Amrito style which is certainly not into Bhakti.
Osho both now and in the past did attract all the various types. I wonder sometimes whether the way that things have turned out is exactly how Osho would have wanted…. but maybe he didn’t care in the ordinary sense.
The main questions for me seem to be whether new people are reaching Osho and whether they are put off by all the divisions, and also whether those seekers who are already sannyasins are being unnecessarily confused. Sadly I think the answer to both questions is yes.
Yes of course Jayesh is trying to de-guru Him. Who is the greatest comedian of all? There is a very sophisticated strategy behind the façade in Pune resort, the Inner-Circle and OIF. However if you take a step back you see the absurd contradictions. What about that it appears to be a 5-star resort yet finance had for years even refused to buy some new filters to make the drinking water at least a little cleaner? Do you call that anything other than absurdly contradictory?
Heraclitus and Rob need to do a little reading of the previous posts if they want to sound a little less misinformed. Of course the battle ground appears to lie between the Eastern path of bhakti (devotion) and Western individualist spiritualism. If you look into the matter yes you will find this battle taking place. This is nothing other than politics and I agree “so what”. However, deep underground in the so-called New Age camp run by the Inner-Circle and management team India is a thread of deep criminality.
Exposing people unnecessarily and for years to seriously contaminated drinking water in India is a case of serious criminal negligence. The violence against myself and Swami Rajneesh is also criminal. What about the Western man who may have ended up in an Indian jail on a murder charge – a set up by Dhyanesh? This is in the least seriously criminal. If there is any truth in the ignoring of a years long campaign of drugging of women, this is also highly criminal. What else has been happening?
What about that swami who disappeared and went into hiding? Swami Manik is not an unknown sannyasin. He is well known in many circles. If he has not read the last few posts I am sure someone who knows him well has, and has likely contacted him. So is anyone going to have the courage to tell the truth to help other people, or are we all not sheep but meek mice?
This is not about meditation or devotion. This is also not about politics or pop-psychology. It is about ongoing and serious criminality.
Anthony do you not want to read or respond to issues like people drinking seriously contaminated drinking water? I supposed it is that it is chemistry not psychology? However I bet you will not be drinking the ‘drinking’ water if you ever come back during a monsoon. Of course no doubt if anyone asked, you still would not have heard anything about drinking water because you are a non-detached non-sannyasin and therefore have no moral responsibility nor intelligence.
Yahoo
Abhay
http://oshobuddhism.blogspot.com
click on “osho resort” on right side of blog
Heraculitus..Your post was very thoughtful
You say ‘ I wonder sometimes whether the way that things have turned out is exactly how Osho would have wanted…. but maybe he didn’t care in the ordinary sense ”
Thats the understanding I am also arriving at..In a way this forum is more about understanding ourselves more than understanding others.
I may or may not be correct..My current understanding is flowering of Osho vision in multidimensional way.. But the negative side of it is the confusion you talked about when you said ” The main questions for me seem to be whether new people are reaching Osho and whether they are put off by all the divisions ”
I started a thread here titled ‘ Open Letter re Divisions amongst Osho disciples ” where i mentioned ‘ It is putting off so many young people who would have otherwise…. ”
But you never know ..at a deeper layer life ( Osho vision ) is turning out to be exactly the way it needs to.. Well it can not be otherwise can it?
Heraculitus , I read the one of the post from that earlier thread where you were also wondering about something which is just an extension of what you say here..
Seems sometimes it is good to go back and read what we expressed and how the understanding has changed or grown now..
Shantam..If you look deep Osho never had encouraged anything like worship.. Gratitude is what he always talked about which is very different from worshipping..
I dont consider bowing down to a living master as worship..It is just a way of showing gratitude..
Most often when someone talks against worship it is interpreted as though they are saying ‘ everything related to heart should go out of the window. ‘.. It need not be… I still have tears when i realize the understanding Osho has given about life.. But those tears have nothing to do with worshipping or blind following..
But it is just a logical interpretaion.. In the same way when someone talks about heart oriented approach it is always interpreated by others as blind following..
Somhow mind always takes the extreme only no matter what is expressed.
In one of the articles Swami Keerthi explained that blind following never actually happened with Osho and no one erected a temple .. What he said is very true in terms of factcity and as long as Osho was in the body he would not have allowed also ..But on the other hand the possibility of something like that happening is also always there and we can not discount it..
Abhay.. As we said earlier you might have facts about violence.. No denying it.. I respect it..
But a core aspect of Osho movement is individuals acting out of intelligence , awareness and knowing their environment .. i am not justifying anything here ..But just saying awareness goes hand in hand with knowing the risks posed by your environment..
While the violence that happened to you is not acceptable i am not sure how you will link it to a larger group of people.. Why it can not be the unconciounness of few individuals..Not everyone part of the administration is enlightened..are they?
I assume the drugging issue happened outside..is it part of management responsibility ? If it has happened outside then the individual is responsible..
The same way when you come to India you take shots and prepare yourself for a polluted environment you should also expect a inner polluted environment.. Osho always warned India as a highly suppressed culture and add poverty to it , then you have the right mix of danger lurking everywhere
India is not a safe in country in that sense.. It doesnt give a damn to individual safety and self respect.. So we indians are always on our toes and we expect probelms from everywhere..
But a western guy may not be prepared.. if a western women trusts a Indian guy and thereby gets drugged it is really unfortunate.. If i go to US and get stabbed in a subway because i didnt know that it can happen then how whom do i blame?
I am not diverting topic here.. All i am saying is the experience of western people in India will be mixed , be it pollution or treatement meted out to them or risk of someone stealing you or someone attracting a virus..
It seems there is lot of effort to put together scattered incidentsand arrive at a framework ..atleast thats how i see it.. I amy be wrong .. one violence which happened 25 years ago and another violence done by a security guard dont make the management criminal..
you also admit you dont have any info about wthether the water system has been corrected or not.. how do you know.. I am not assuming.. i am going by what you said recently..
The battle between Bhakti and Wisdom need not be political..how can you make categorization like that.. It can be a genuine issue.
Again i am not justifying anyone’s action here.. Violence is violence ..But it is very difficult , atleast for me to understand how all the incidents highlighted by you can be attributed to pune management..except ofcourse the water contamination for which we dont have any facts about the actions taken
Just a sample of the value of individual life in India..
http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/29/violent-protests-as-delhi-school-reopens-after-stampede-incident.htm
Once you read it understand nothing will happen in courts and legal systems.. Money will be used to close the issue..
Just to bring the word ” worship” in context with Osho is out of context. it is as stupid as mother superior checks the garbage bins everyday to find condoms in Monestry.
fact is people who are running the show from both sides of the fences are paranoid, it is like flies sitting on the roof, think without them, roof will fall.
Trust in human intelligence and cosmic wisdom exist only on papers, a playfulness, a joy to see the multitude of human inner expressions has gone down the drain under cultist regulations.
More and more people are opening their vocal chords to express their displeasure.
In this age, only those organisations can touch the human heart, who are very honest about themselves. who don’t sell the bridge over the river which does not exist.
‘ it is like flies sitting on the roof, think without them, roof will fall.”
‘ who don’t sell the bridge over the river which does not exist.”
Shantam is Shantam..
Heraclitus and Kranti, it is my view that new visitors and current sannyasins are not being confused, they are being (deeply) hurt – by the Jayesh/Amrito model. I also argue that much worse may still be to come. I accept what Kranti has said about the fact that I know nothing of whether the water problem was fixed, and if so to what extent. However I also have some common sense. It would have required a relatively small investment to purchase some filters. However the problems with both water treatment systems were significant, and would therefore have required significant time and financial investment. I would be astounded if the necessary investments have been made to make the water treatment systems at least up to reasonable standard.
From my point of view Haraclitus’s argument is profoundly mistaken. Without people like Swami Rajneesh and others creating the so called confusion, more and more people will only get hurt by what Jayesh and Amrito are doing.
Kranti you talk about a core aspect of authentic people. Imagine if you were saying this at The Ranch. You may have been right about the people that you were referring to, as long as you were not referring to the people running the show (Sheela and her gang). If you are referring to people like Jayesh, Amrito, Yogendra, Muhkesh, Gatha, Vatayana, Dhyanesh and Sadhana, then I would be interested to know. Also if this is your core group of people than from my experience and understanding I emphatically disagree. If you have other people in mind then from what I know they are not running the show.
As far as I am concerned your distinction between worship and gratitude is simply a matter of linguistics. Call it what you like, it can be both beautiful, and taken too the extreme, disastrous.
You say that Swami Keerthi is factual when he says no blind following happened when Osho was in the body. What was Sheela and her gang doing? You might argue that they had no interest in Osho, but I disagree. I hope you are not going to argue that they were not blind. Also, in the throngs of hundreds of thousands of Indian and Western devotees I find it hard to believe that there was not a significant number of blind followers…just a little common sense.
Kranti about the drugging incident, the reference to the article was given by Harri Om in his or her or it or them’s recent post. However as it was recounted to me a lady who was drugged went into a kind of psychosis. She went to the Welcome Centre for help. She briefly received support and started feeling a little better. She said to me that she felt than if this could continue she would come out of the disturbed mental state she was in. However for some reason the support was stopped at the Welcome Centre and she was told to go to the adjacent hospital. She received treatment there that she did not want – a series of drugs to try and get her out of the psychosis. As I understand it, she was informed whilst in this hospital that she was banned from the ashram. She then was flown back to her own country in a seriously disturbed mental state. She said that recovering from this took years, and when she gathered the courage to come back to Pune she found out that the man that drugged her had recently died. She said that he had continued to drug women up until then.
Do you see the pattern that repeats itself? Having a mentally disturbed woman at the Welcome Centre does not look good for the ashram. Caring for her similarly does not look good. Rumours might start that people are into drugs and this could be immensely harmful for the image of the ashram – of course all this concern is really about protecting Osho’s image isn’t it? You see it does not matter that there is a man living outside the ashram that continues to target Osho sannyasin women. What matters is that the image of the ashram appears to be good.
Here is another example of exactly the same destructive pattern. It does not matter if people drank seriously contaminated drinking water for years at the resort. What matters is that the pool looks sparkling clean. I remember after I raised the issue with Amrito he said to me by phone that this problem needs to be addressed prior to the coming monsoon. It was during or just after that monsoon that I received one of Osho.com’s lovely marketing emails. It said that they had just installed new filters for the swimming pool so now the pool water will be sparkling clean. Isn’t that just great! The people in charge of finance will spend money on pool filters so the pool looks clean, but will not spend money on water treatment system filters. Funny enough the water from the degraded water treatment system anyhow goes into the pool. What an absolute joke!
The filters for the swimming pool have promotional value. Hence it is worthwhile spending the money on, especially when followed up by a slick marketing campaign. The other filters cost money and really it would look a little dubious if the marketing department came out and said we now have brand new filters so the drinking water is sparkling clean. It just isn’t something that has advertising value, and anyhow so long as you just tell people that the water is hygienically clean, who cares…so long as nobody finds out. Sure people get sick, but so long as they don’t drop on mass around one of the water stations, who cares. Also, at the end of the day we in management and finance like people to buy bottled water because we get an excellent commission from that. I suppose the critical water treatment system filters will have to wait for the next round. However no, there would be little left in the maintenance budget because Jayesh and resort management are busy completing there remake of the ashram into a 5-star resort. Such hypocrisy is an absolute joke!
What I have never been able to find out is whether resort management bought some filters for the water treatment system prior to the monsoon (as discussed with Amrito). I think that at least for that monsoon they did not. I never received replies to my requests for answers. Of course my requests became more entertaining and convoluted, and perhaps the gang are regretting that they just did not tell me that they fixed the water treatment system. Oh well…bad luck!
Are you getting the idea of the pattern now? As long as everything looks good; as long as no-one ever finds out the truth. Of course it is all about bringing people to Osho…just like Heraclitus so touchingly expressed. Ah…no it is not! The management team India and the Inner-Circle have no concern whether what they are doing physically and emotionally hurts people (including seriously). How then can you say that they are so deeply involved in sharing Osho to the world? This is an utter lie. They are clearly not interested in the well-being of the people they are trying to attract, and I just cannot see how all this could be in some obscure way helping Osho.
Kranti you take the apparently sincere approach of acknowledging Osho’s immense depth, and draw from this the conclusion that despite the strange worldly discrepancies, surely everything surrounding Osho’s unfolding vision is just the way it was meant to be. Do you want to here my opinion on that?
Shantam is critical of Harri Om for not revealing his or her or it or their identity. Kranti is critical of Harri Om for only providing a theoretical framework. Kranti is critical of me for not providing sufficient facts to fit into that framework. Of course it is a matter of judgement, just like in a court trial. At the moment Kranti would not be convinced because of insufficient evidence. However not too long ago there was no overarching theory to present, and a lot of nasty facts have also recently come gurgling up. Let us wait and see.
Kranti you say that maybe there are just a few bad seeds, and this is to be expected. If there was sufficient evidence and cohesive argument to bring to trial (and convict) the most senior members of management team India and the Inner-Circle, this may be considered by you to be just a few, but I consider it to be sufficient.
Kranti you talk about accepting the obvious truth of not so beautiful India. (It is not my place here to argue that the Indian government is deceitful in its Beautiful India marketing campaign). Unfortunately some Indian men are drawn to Koregaon Park and the Pune resort because they think Osho is a sex guru and Western women want to have infinite sex with them, even if they resist. The sparkling clean swimming pool reinforces that notion. Just look at all those scantily clad women asking for sex…it is true after all. Paradise awaits them when they walk home alone tonight. Also, Indian women enjoy dressing like Western women and so these very smart Indian men suddenly have more women to try and rape at night in the dark around the back streets of Koregaon Park. Sure we all know that India is a country with a high rate of rape and disease, but there are things we can do to mitigate that. Jayesh and Amrito and their grand vision are doing everything to worsen the situation. In India, an Osho community should be styled to fit with the culture. Hence for example a swimming pool is an utterly stupid idea, even if it was ordered by Osho via Jayesh.
The way that Pune resort is advertised is deceptive if it does not provide a standard that matches the impression. It is accepted that the assumption of being in a tropical and developing country is inherently part of the package. However Pune resort still fails the test miserably. It is accepted that food hygiene and water standards just cannot be expected to be as good as in the West, no matter how sparkling the advertising campaign. However it is required that the systems and technology available be in place and functioning. This is not the case. The marketing campaign is full of lies. The argument of lack of finance fails the test as the ashram has in recent years been transformed into a resort.
I remember getting kicked off Wikipedia for trying to tell the truth about water contamination. To this day when you look up Osho on Wikipedia you here all about the magnificent Pune resort and “Osho.com”. The truth that it is not has been deleted. I remember that when what I wrote got deleted from the main Osho page it was transferred to the discussion page…to argue my points. However, after a short time it was no longer even to be found anywhere on Wikipedia. The truth just disappeared into thin air…quite marvellous. Ah yes I have an impressive record for getting kicked out of anything to do with Osho. I am of course only motivated to try and win an Olympic sized gold medal for the most outstanding Banned Buddha in Swami Rajneesh’s competition. The trouble is there is some stiff competition. I guess I shall just keep training.
Oh and the last thing, I was just wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what type of bad person I am. Sannyasnews reporters have not been so kind as to help me understand all the mistakes I have made in my writing. I am also wondering am I a drug addict, a violent hypnotist, a terrorist, or what? Please help me because I don’t know who I am. I have received much verbal and physical abuse pointing to what I am, yet I somehow would still like some official clarification on the matter.
Yahoo
Abhay
http://oshobuddhism.blogspot.com
click on “osho resort” on right side of blog
I thank Abhay to bring the issue of clean water to my attention. It will help me on my next visit to Osho Resort Pune. I will bring water purifying equipment with me and will cook all water before drinking and avoid all teas etc. within the resort.
I thank Harri Om for being himself and can understand his points of view.
I also think that Swami Rajneesh slow walk is a complete fake and not worth much attention.
I am a bit confused. is harri Om and prem abhay the same person? because the use the same syn taxis and linguistic style.
I do not comment on the water issue, because I know nothing about that, except my own experience in water drinking, which so far does not support what you say. I have never got sick from it, not one of my friends have… so I am not saying you are wrong. I just say It is not my experience… and I have been there during monsoon.
Kranti you talk about a core aspect of authentic people ”
Abhay… i just said the core aspect of Osho movement is awareness.. I didnt mean any core group of people or specific authentic group etc..
I also said that with reference to current scenario . Western people visiting here need to be more careful although i feel the situation is lot better that what it was a decade ago.. India also is changing fast
” As far as I am concerned your distinction between worship and gratitude is simply a matter of linguistics ”
What i mean to say is bowing down to a living master is very different from building a temple after he is gone and worshipping.. Bowing down is a ALIVE expression.. There is no one or nothing else exists between the master and disciple.. worshipping later on brings the priests & rituals in.. So i feel it is just not linguistic difference
” You say that Swami Keerthi is factual when he says no blind following happened when Osho was in the body ‘
Thats what i felt he said..
” What was Sheela and her gang doing? ”
Very true .. Although I dont think anyone followed Sheela , they believed whatever was told by her came from Osho..thats is blindness & Ofcourse everyone paid the price for that …Infact the entire movement paid the price ..Very big price for lot of individuals.. But you never know again..It was too big a phenomenon.. without it how things would have turned out..
The swimming pool thing is subjective..I am surprised you express this as a westerner.. Putting restrictions on that will amount hypocricy.. I think it is perfectly fine to have a swimming pool and women swimming in it….. At the most what they can do disconnect it from usual walking / eateries..It will avoid people staring ..
Anyway India is changing and Indian men are getting exposed to more modern culture..
” Unfortunately some Indian men are drawn to Koregaon Park .. ‘
With or Without swimming pool the problem will remain..it is a deep rooted in the suppressed culture..As of now they try to communicate strongly to Indian men whether they 16 years old or 60 years old..Many people even have objections to such communication.. I didnt feel hurt as i felt they are addressing a problem they face, in a manner they think is fit..
” Osho community should be styled to fit with the culture. ” this is where adopting to a rotten culture starts.. and we end up implementing things which Osho tried to free us from..
Even the thought of adopting a Osho’s place to the culture around seems to be very uncomfortable for me..
Not sure about marketing aspect.. the image which we try to project is fluid and it is very difficult compare that image vs real on a real time basis , unless the difference is drastic..I have not looked into those type of things..
” Oh and the last thing, I was just wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what type of bad person I am ”
Who told you such a thing.. What is the background to to this..Not even sure whether this is a relevant topic..
Abhay
” What matters is that the image of the ashram appears to be good. ”
Just thinking.. Are we not too harsh here .. Such mentally disturbed / disturned person shows up in any place say even other meditation centers what they would have done? ..Any one would have taken the person out to sort out unwanted commotion .. And the management will never know whether the person is drugged without her knowledge or whether she has taken drugs. Again what is the fact of the case?
Abhay, even for you it may be second hand or even 3rd hand or 4th hand info..If i accept it and start taking about it it will be even further from truth..
Please dont think i am questioning everything.. i am only trying to look at things little critically rather than accepting on the face of it.. I never questioned your water contamination facts…although like Anthony said i have never faced any problem by drinking resort water.. I never heard inside or outside the resort directly from anyone..
Anthony,
I appreciate that you are trying to find out whether Abhay or Harri Om are the same person or the alter ego of each other.
This is also one of the reason, i am asking again and again the identity of harri om.
Kranti I accept your responses and in general disagree, especially in your interpretation of my cultural analysis. What to you think of Christian missionaries going into foreign countries and spreading their Gods word? I accept that you do not have to sell your soul to appease a culture, but this is a far cry from being a little intelligent about a cultural background. Also, down the track swimming pools all over India is a great idea. The trouble is that Osho has a legacy of being sex guru. It is important that this false legacy be broken. In order to do this the Pune community space should take a strong stance that breaks this projection. Then all the sexual deviants (Western and Indian) will go home disappointed. After that it may well be a good idea to have such things like swimming pools, although I agree there should be some clear physical boundaries. The sexually repressed Indian mind is growing up, yet it will take more than a few years for that to happen.
I do agree with your appraisal of the issue of facts, and how facts can turn into fictions. However I personally know how some important facts have been turned into fictions by resort management. That is a fact, of course known only to me. Since I know this to be a fact, and I see how they have done this repeatedly with me, it leads me to consider the possibility that many other people have been similarly treated. I only wish that the facts be known about a lot of the issues recently mentioned. However short of an independent investigation into the matter I will remain totally unconvinced. By independent I also do not mean a local Pune police report.
Shantam and Anthony, in wondering if I am Harri Om you are avoiding the issues. Not a bad theory though.
Yahoo
Abhay
Shantam and Anthony, in wondering if I am Prem Abhay you are avoiding the issues. Not a bad theory though.
Yahoo
Harri
And Shantam why is it that there have been so many theories about who I am, yet you have never told me you were trying to find out if I was Prem Abhay? Anthony is a smart guy, comes up with a good theory, and you just copying yourself in.
Yahoo
Harri
done, they are the same guy with the same IP number…one is just a little bit more obsessed with water filters.
Wow what a thrashing of a sincere appeal of Swami Narendra!
I don’t see anything wrong in “devoting at least one hour in meditation everyday”. I have been doing this and it does make a difference.
After all sannyas is all about meditation, everything boils down to meditation, Isn’t it?Osho talked so much to push us towards ourselves.
Narendra within his own limits is trying best to share Osho with people, you need to go see his commune to realize his contribution. For me, one way to express my gratitude towards Osho is to share his meditations with others, I tried this with friends and in return you see the happiness on people’s face and that is so fulfilling.
Come-on everybody, reading your posts, it seems that Narendra committed some sort of a crime by asking all to meditate.
(Now thrash me.., you are most welcome!)
By the way, you can try talking to a Yoga center near you and see if they are willing to host Osho meditation classes (beginning with evening Kundalini meditation). And people might be interested. It is a blessing to share Osho meditations. I live in Ohio and thought that I would never find anyone interested in Osho, I approached a Yoga center and they were welcoming and happy to host a couple of Kundalini classes and they love it so much. And I love Kundalini – win – win situation…
Anthony..You are saying they are the same ..but you are also differentiating between them..Can you explain so my dumb brain can understand..
just a joke…kranti…
Harri Om,
When some one hides behind the mask, it is a natural curiosity to see is the person behind the Burka is a woman or a man.
I was not mixing you with Abhay, but Anthony’s curiosity proved that how important it is to come out clean about oneself.
i am not that computer savvy but have heard, someone with little knowledge of computer can find out whether the email writer has his computer in the bed room or in the bath room.
uh oh.
Did the man say Meditate???
Run run run, and run as fast as you can fellow sannyasins!!
I’ve missed the debate soI went straight to the comments to find out some core points on the article, and it seemed like Sw. Narendra was telling people to pick up guns and march?
But I went back, took a brief read, and he said Meditate? The M word? My god…
He makes a point tho, and although I myself arent bouncing around in maroon, or orange clothes and reppin the mala—it did happen folkes, and it caused quite an impression around the world.
Now, whether I would do that now is a difficult question. Comman, what would my parents thinK? What would my professors think? What would my friends think? What would society think?
Wait…wait..wait.
Are these the same questions people asked when Osho asked them to go nude in maroon?
Hmm…So back in the day you literally had to lose you social respect in order to become a sannyasin? Must’ve been quite an experience.
Even today, show Osho’s picture or take the name Rajneesh and all you’ll hear is “crook”.
So let’s make it easy on everyone, change his name to Osho, cut out the controversial mala’s, maroon and orange—repackage him, brand him and have him sit as a screen saver on apple laptop.
It is the age of consumerism folkes, sell everything except your boxers.
As Islam becomes the fastest growing religion in the world with its fruity ideas of doomsday and prophets, Osho’s taking a backseat with profits…
A typical scenario: a sannyasin is asked by his boss to shower everyday before he comes to work, he agrees or else he’s fired.
His friend, another sannyasin tells him to meditate everyday as it’ll make him more relaxed and calm, or else he’ll remain tensed and stupid. The sannyasin pulls out both his middle fingers raises them high with pride and tells his friend to FUCK OFF YOU CONTROL FREAK!
Typical.
Sw. Narendra, great article dude.
-Amrito
” just a joke…kranti…”
For a moment i thought you caught these guys ( 1 guy ) red handed..
i caught Him. they are the same guy, with the same IP number.
Amrito. it was not Narendra asking us to meditate that created the fuss, but his asking us to wear maroon and mala in everyday life that created the laughter.
Amrito
You opened a topic which is really tough to discuss.
Osho himself said live in the market place and meditate , be aware and all.
He also said when you are in Society just act..dont get into trouble
My understanding is Osho gave robe and mala as tools create energy and meditation..
But i am not sure whether he wanted his people to wear them everywhere and create a rebellion
Your initial impression of Narendra seemed to be more genuine..Then it seems your love for Osho & tears covered your eyes.. It happens to me ..
In a way you are right..When you are heart orieted you dont care a damn about society..When you are hung up in the mind and so much worried about society it is an indication that you are not total and ready to put everything at stake for awakening..
” i caught Him. they are the same guy, with the same IP number ”
Same joke repeated because you liked the joke or you are serious?
totally serious. they are the same guy
Shantam.. What do you say now? They are same guys..
Anthony.. see this link
http://www.oshoworld.com/NewsBoard/news/news_item.asp?NewsID=618
Why should Harri Om post Prem Abhays post in Oshoworld?
“My understanding is Osho gave robe and mala as tools create energy and meditation..”
Yes, and it still does create energy my friend. Try meditating without mala and with mala and robes, you will see the difference, no explanations needed from others.
It was not given without no reason.
Krishnananda
I expressed my understanding .While i understand this as a tool for collective energy i am not sure whether a maroon robe and mala has got anything to do with meditation on a individual basis.
As far as i am concerned once you are rooted in awareness you need to be in meditation anywhere and in any dress..Trust you agree.
It is something like a school uniform.. people drop their unique styles and sort of look at each other equally as a fellow meditator.. that relaxes the mind. Add to that the effect of a intense color like maroon all around the environment look nice..
But sitting at home i dont think i need a robe and mala to meditate as meditation is more to do with centering in our own inner silence leaving behind the Outer..whatever it is..
Hi Kranti
I use it for “individual basis” and I feel comfortable with a robe when I meditate.
I think you need it more individually. Its for YOU TO MEDITATE, be it in group or individually -thats secondary. Of course, if you love being in a jeans while doing Kundalini, I don’t have to say anything
I am not trying to convince anyone that they SHOULD wear it, who listen’s to others’ anyways? – we did not even listen to OSHO.
” we did not even listen to OSHO.”
I totally agree..
krishnananda. I have been meditation for 23 years now. What makes the difference is the quality of my awareness… and sometimes if there are more people in the same energy. clothes have never make any difference.
Infact sitting in my office in formal dress all the time i am able to move into silence . It is a big office with 200 people on the floor ..The somewhat controlled noice level and disconnected space from road traffic makes it easier to look in.. There is this contrast between what is happening inside and outside conversations.. I really enjoy it..
One more thing i have experienced is to look at the outside world from inside a tall building.. You see all the movements , cars and people..minus the noice ( Audio ) part.. Suddenly this puts you into deep stillness.
“…and sometimes if there are more people in the same energy….. ”
This is difficult to find, so the need is to create energy for yourself. If you are choosing something to wear, then why not a robe just for meditation? I mean it feels light!
” I mean it feels light ”
Surely.. Interms of convenience it is good..But any loose , convenient dress will do..
Oh dear Kranti……You seem to be Enlightened……..yahoooooo
‘ You seem to be Enlightened’
The Non-Duality school says no one can get enlightened..
Enlightenment happens when the person disappears..
So harri Om And prem abhay are the same persons, Thanks Anthony for your research…
It seems we have so many con artists in the world of Osho…
I was listening to “Jin Khoja TIn Paiyan #17 “, just by accident. Its in Hindi folks…. You should listen to that, Osho clearly explained why he choose the red/maroon color for his people and for meditation and why buddha, mahavir choose a different color.
I was surprised at all the esoteric things he talked about and we are all arguing…
Krishnananda,
Osho will say all things.. We can not go by his words said in one particular context.. The essence of his teachings is awareness , gratitude towards life and celebration..Rest of the talks are just to bring you on track..
First listen to the discourse and then you will understand the context. Of course the essence is meditation and transformation, step-by-step, bit-by bit. Not listening to his words might as well be a very nice way to avoid him! May be who knows, it might be a mind game…. Again its perfectly fine for you to disagree.
Krishnananda
I dont understand Hindi..But listen to hindi discorses by Osho just for the sheer joy of listening to Osho.. This in addition to the 1000s of hours i spent in listening to His english discourses.. I am not disagreeing with you,,but just highlighting the facts that Osho says many things in a certain context ..
ok sir I understood
….so the Beloved is an outside thing…..like God huh???
well .. if ever you look at indian history of masters or gurus and sadgurus … humans hav never failed to make a temple out of them …
its a basic need for ppl to hav somthng they can relate to… hence the gods in human form .. the idols .. the guru statue..
humans never listened to buddha… when he said not to make an idol of him …
but if u look at it today 2600 yrs from then …
we all relate to buddha in his physical form …
many understand his silence … but still to look at his pictures brings a sense to clam … and showing gratitude is good for the soul .. enlightened or not!!
his words live on … and ppl hav done that …
whats wrong in creating temple …
atleast its a thing of constructive creativity …
and aplace of light and love…
rather than a place of manipulation and politics…
if u find temples bad … dont enter one…(nobody is asking you)
if u can find a bit of yourself in it .. why not visit it as and when one wants…
why ppl relate to such activities ….
it easier to hold on to somthing … thats why existence gives a master in the first place …
somone starting the jorney cannot comprehend the “nothingness”part of it …
you cannot expect one to understand this “centered-ness” just in a day or even a year…
somone to hold on to (its a different aspect that the master gets irritated if u hold on too tightly.. but thats his problem…and who is to say .. that the master is not intelligent enuff to slip away at the right time….why do ppl think they can trap a master … any master for that matter …. if he is truly one …hold on as tightly as u can … u find might find u are holding on to nothing .. when he slipped away … u would not even know…. )
if u consider yourself to be spiritually progressed enuff that u dont need the temple… great …
for the others … WELCOME……(to make one.. to create one…worship in one)
luv…
well .. if somone actually makes any temple of OSHo .. and all the important place .. the tree under which he got enlightenment ..etc etc …. these places will actually become more imp … and the resort might become .. juts another of the places osho stayed at …
that cant be bad …. that wud be good ….
ppl who like the resort can visit the resort …
ppl who wud want to know more about Osho ..can visit such laces..
both can exist … no?//
i am ..
just i..
as in any form
you
might want
to see…
some came
and saw the
stars..
some cud see
only
the stone…
some felt
melted
and some
just went
along…
i stood
as i did
for thousands
of years…
seeing all the
circus
walking
by
in the end the
ppl did not
remain
the circus
too did not
remain…
and for thousands
of years
neither
have i….
nothingness-to-nothingness…..is the whole journey …
welcome hom….