The Inner Circle Conundrum

Restoring the Inner Circle? Shantam explores the Issue.

Beloved Fellow Travelers,
Just in a few months time we will have the 20th anniversary of Osho’s leaving the body. During this time India has made incredible material progress, something which Osho was keen on in His early discourses in the 1960′s. For the first time India’s new generation is proud to be young, and ready to experiment with life. Western technology groomed by the best universities has also contributed to change the way we used to communicate. Osho would have felt happy to use all these opportunities.

However where we stand as an organisation and as a torch bearer of Osho’s legacy – whether we say it loud or simply feel it, we are lacking nourishment.

Once the organisation around Osho realises that its credibility is at a nadir in spite of all the best intentions on their part, we can start a new chapter. We can leave a few marks for future generations. If first generation sannyasins who have seen, felt, and lived, and were part of Osho vision cannot find a suitable interpretation of His words and intentions, it will be an impossible task for those who will see Him only through the videos and through the books.

Keeping this in mind, a few of His people are enjoying an open discussion at sannyasnews.com.
It is my feeling that having been part of Osho’s vision for more than 23 years in a passionate way, that once some simple steps are taken, Bonsai will start the journey to be a Banyan tree. it will bring creditability and trust in people’s hearts.

To move mountains and to built bridges over the seas is not a wonder any more, but to bridge inroads into People’s heart and win their trust is still an arduous work, yet it is the easiest work. Just put aside ego, and the bricks are there.

In the context of running Osho’s work successfully,heartfully and with credibility, the first step is to restore the institution of inner circle. A twenty one member inner circle – as Osho had wished to carry forward His dream. It means every member has a voting right of approximately 4% and in the case of tie, the President of the inner circle will cast his vote. This will be democracy and meritocracy at work.
www.oshoinnercircle.com can be the official website and every member is reachable all the time through their e mail identities say,
amrito@oshoinnercircle.com

Once the connection is there between a far away leaf with the roots, it is a sign of healthiness. Most of the people will not even think to write to the President of a country for example but the whole still prospers – when every citizen feels that people who are running the administration are accountable and reachable.

Who will be these 21 members, as many of the original inner circle members have gone into oblivion. My suggestion is that most of them should be the first generation sannyasins from different countries and professional backgrounds with life long association with His vision. They should really represent the face of us all. in their integrity and fearless walks on the path. for sure, Jayesh will stay as President and Amrito as vice president. Rest of the members can be new yet known faces.

As in this age of Internet, it is not necessary that they are always camped at Pune, though when there is a general meeting of inner circle for 2-3times in a year, all members must be present. And also it should not be life long postings. Say for two to three years and to see that their experience is not lost, they can be part of an advisory board because work has the potential to grow beyond our imaginations.

This is the first and vital step. It is a life saving injection. Afterwards one needs only the vitamins and regular diet and exercise. This we can discuss later.

Shantam

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257 Responses to The Inner Circle Conundrum

  1. Heraclitus says:

    Cant help feeling this is a lot of nieve twaddle.

    This was/is a mystery school, it is not about democracy. And all these brickbats between people are mini zen hits. Osho’s work or the organisations around his work are not at their nadir, in a way they are being stretched by each other so that little Joe sannyasin gets a better service all round, and more importantly Osho’s work reaches every nook and cranny of the world, cos if one bunch doesn’t do it, the other does!

    Anyone who has run an organisation, any organisation, knows how much work is involved. It simply is not everyone’s cup of tea. The most suitable candidates are the very first to turn down such duties!
    That is the paradox of a mystery school…. and a good one too.

    Lots of the guys commenting here probably could not organise a piss up in a brewery, it is a real skill this orgainisation thing. Sadly only very motivated people can do it, and they are the fanatics, or often so. People forget that Stalin, Pol Pot and Hitler were actually very good organisers, but of course they were also pyschopaths!

  2. Dilruba says:

    Shantam … l feel this mystery school which Osho has created / happened … will loose its very soul / quality with such a proposal …
    this is all l can say at this moment

  3. Kartar says:

    Trees are living examples how things take time. Sometimes we need to allow an appropriate amount of disorder because it’s part of growth. It’s part of letting people explore. It’s part of letting people be themselves.

    Be the change you want to see occur in the world around you. We can’t make other people be more meditative, considerate, helpful, honest, organized etc., but if everyone were to work on themselves and develop these attributes, our world would be a better place.

  4. Shahriar says:

    “However where we stand as an organisation and as a torch bearer of Osho’s legacy – whether we say it loud or simply feel it, we are lacking nourishment. ”

    Shantam this is arrogant. With what authority can anyone claim that they are a torch bearer of “Osho’s legacy”? You can only be a torch bearer of your understanding of Osho, not Osho himself. Unless you are enlightened, which is a totally different matter, (By the way, I think we should beware of people who would declare themselves “enlightened” as a means to power, prestige,e tc.) there is no way for you to declare yourself a torchbearer of Osho’s legacy.

    “Once the organisation around Osho realises that its credibility is at a nadir in spite of all the best intentions on their part, we can start a new chapter. We can leave a few marks for future generations. If first generation sannyasins who have seen, felt, and lived, and were part of Osho vision cannot find a suitable interpretation of His words and intentions, it will be an impossible task for those who will see Him only through the videos and through the books.”

    Their credibility is at the lowest point, I agree. We have to find out what exactly the purpose of the organization that Osho created is. If the purpose of the organization is functional meaning washing the dishes, cooking the food, cleaning the floors, fixing the cars etc. then we can try to find out whether these people are fulfilling their funciton or not. If their purpose is not functional, then they are politicians and being politicians, they are concerned with power, not with truth. And Osho was not concerned with power, he was concerned with truth. Therefore, any organization that arises around Osho, if it is not functional, is and will be political, and we all know that politicians are willing to sacrifice truth and even lie if it will help their purpose.

    Functional organizations have a job to do and a responsibility to fulfill. They are not concerned with being credible or not being credible. Politicians are concerned, if they derive their power from people’s opinions of them. We have to find out for what the organization in Pune is existing. What is it’s purpose? Is it doing it’s job? One thing I would like to add is that the people in Pune are not “caretakers” of Osho’s dream/vision/work etc. because they are still unconscious. Do you trust unconscious people to do the right thing? Do you believe that unconscious people can take care of a vision that belonged to a CONSCIOUS human being? Another thing we have to be clear about is what the people in Pune are allowed to do. Are they allowed to do “anything they please” or are there some limits to what they can and cannot do? What is their function and how do you decide whether they are fulfilling their function or not?

    In the context of running Osho’s work successfully,heartfully and with credibility, the first step is to restore the institution of inner circle. A twenty one member inner circle – as Osho had wished to carry forward His dream. It means every member has a voting right of approximately 4% and in the case of tie, the President of the inner circle will cast his vote. This will be democracy and meritocracy at work.
    http://www.oshoinnercircle.com can be the official website and every member is reachable all the time through their e mail identities say,
    amrito@oshoinnercircle.com

    This seems like a good idea Shantam, although we have to make sure that people have the right intentions and they have a willingness to listen to others and consider ideas that may not agree with their own ideas. We also have to make sure that people are willing to put aside their “self” and consider things in an objective way. This means that the people in the inner circle would need the willingness to step down if someone can do their job better. As far as terms are concerned, As long as they are doing their job, they can remain in their position, but if they are not doing their job then it is different. The Inner circle can ONLY have functional work to do. They cannot decide anything related to “higher matters” like truth, enlightenment etc. etc.

    We have seen how the catholic church “sanctions” who is a saint and who is not a saint”. With what authority do they sanction a saint? and why should a saint need their approval?

    We must understand clearly that the “Inner Circle” is NOT the representative of Osho’s vision/work/dream etc. etc. etc. They are only servants, with very specific functions to fulfill. Such as a mechanic, a plumber, a carpenter or an engineer.

  5. Shahriar says:

    “This seems like a good idea Shantam, although we have to make sure that people have the right intentions and they have a willingness to listen to others and consider ideas that may not agree with their own ideas. We also have to make sure that people are willing to put aside their “self” and consider things in an objective way. This means that the people in the inner circle would need the willingness to step down if someone can do their job better. As far as terms are concerned, As long as they are doing their job, they can remain in their position, but if they are not doing their job then it is different. The Inner circle can ONLY have functional work to do. They cannot decide anything related to “higher matters” like truth, enlightenment etc. etc.”

    Just a comment on what I wrote here. What I wrote above would be what “should” happen ideally. But don’t think that things are suddenly going to happen the way that you desire them to happen. Please do not expect that people are suddenly going to have the right intentions, and do what they are supposed to do like good, obedient children. Please don’t expect people to suddenly have the willingness to listen to other people and consider ideas that are different from theirs or suddenly obtain the willingess to put aside their own “selves” and work in an objective way.

  6. Shahriar says:

    “They should really represent the face of us all. in their integrity and fearless walks on the path. for sure, Jayesh will stay as President and Amrito as vice president. Rest of the members can be new yet known faces.”

    No can represent the “face of us all”. We are all different and unique. How do you insure that the people in these positions are authentic “representateves” Should they be elected the way the pope is elected? Should they be elected based on how much they torture themselves like the jaina monks are elected? How do you decide?

    Why should Jayesh and Amrito stay? Why should they go? What is their purpose? Are they fulfilling that purpose, because if they are not, they have no place staying there.

    Another thing I would like to add is that we are living in a world that is based on ambition, competition, hatred, violence, jeasousy etc.etc. etc. In such a world, you cannot expect anyone to act in a humane way towards others. We are living in a word with Money in it. This shows that our world is not based on Love. Otherwise, if our world was based on love, money would disappear. In our world, if you don’t have money, you starve, and no one cares for you. Is this love? This is not love.

    Please beware of good intentions. Good intentions are dangerous because good intentions are a way to cover up ignorance. I have seen people destroy with good intentions. I have seen people being violent with others with the “best of intentions”

  7. Shahriar says:

    Good intentions are not enough.

  8. Shahriar says:

    “This is the first and vital step. It is a life saving injection”

    Osho’s mystic school is not going to disappear, whether any exoteric group arises around Osho’s work. So no need to worry that if some organization does not arise, Osho’s truth will disappear. Something worth remembering is this: Who has the authority to interpret Osho’s work for someone else? Each individual has to know Osho for himself/herself. There is no way for an unconscious person to interpret Osho correctly. The unconscious person will interpret Osho according to himself/herself, and along with Osho the unconscious person will add all the jealousy, ego, ignorance and foolishness that comes with being unconscious. Do you trust a drunk person to be able to drive you home safely? Then why do you trust an unconscious person to be able to make the right decision? Unconscious people can only make wrong decisions until their decisions create enough suffering and misery for them and they learn and wake up.

  9. Shahriar says:

    These words of Osho are to be remembered “Good intentions are not enough. What is needed is Conscious intention which are lacking in what these people do…”

  10. Shahriar says:

    “If first generation sannyasins who have seen, felt, and lived, and were part of Osho vision cannot find a suitable interpretation of His words and intentions, it will be an impossible task for those who will see Him only through the videos and through the books.”

    No suitable interpretation can be found, because you have to know Osho directly, just the way you have to know truth directly. First, second, third etc generation sannyasins cannot be representatives of Osho or his words or his vision. They can only be representatives of their own understanding.

    A thought just occured to me that there is a great difference between being true and sounding true. Just thought I add this as a “by the way” comment.

    You are Osho’s vision. He lives though you. It is only through the transformation that has happened in your life that you can be a witness to Osho’s truth, and this has nothing to do with organizations. Someone may be a carpenter or a shoemaker but that person can be a witness to the Truth of Mohammad, and someone can be an ayatollah and still that person can be a hypocrite. Truth has nothing to do with the position that you hold or the respect that people give you or the number of votes that you receive. Truth is something inner, like love. So being a witness to Osho’s truth has nothing to do with being a first, second or third generation sannyasin, because we saw what happened with Sheela and her gang when Osho himself was alive. Does that mean that just because someone has lived with Osho a transformation has happened in their lives? and does that mean that just because someone has not lived with Osho a transformation cannot happen in their life?

    Something Mohammad used to say is that there are hypocrites that say that they are muslims in public but that when they are alone they pay allegiance to the devil, so how can you say that someone is a muslim or christian based on outer actions and words? Being a muslim is something inner, which has nothing to do with actions and words, because they can deceive. You can pretend through your actions and your words. But you cannot cover up what you are. Your being is going to show your reality. This seems to apply in this case also to sannyasins. Actions and words do not in any way show that someone is a muslim or a christian or a hindu or a buddhist. It is the being that determines whether you are or you are not a sannysin or a muslim. And how can you judge based on words and actions? Who will judge? Socrates was poisoned, Jesus was crucified, Mansur-al-hallaj was murdered and Osho was wronged by the world, so who will decide who is or is not a sannyasin? Who is going to judge? Fools cannot judge, so the best thing to do, the wisest thing to do is to judge not.

  11. harri om says:

    Thankyou Shantam for some brain-storming about how the Osho collective can function. I like the idea of equal rights. Not many people a aware of the fact the most inner-circle members have neglible power.

    Also, in response to criticism that the OMDC’s approach is “below the belt”, “guerilla” like, “violent”, and trying to “gathering a mob”….this accusation is rather unusual as voting is usually done with pencil and ballot paper.

    Further, though the OMDC has a primary aim that is apolitical, there is no inherent contradiction in playing politics.

    Also, politics is in essence the relations that exist between people. A countries constitution for example clarifies these relations in order for a country’s people to live together in relative harmony.

    The idea of politics being bad is absurd because once there is more than one person involved, there is politics.

    I read in a comment that Osho people should just do their job for the greater good and have no personal interest. Even more remarkable is that they should step aside if someelse can function more effectively. Who is going to make someone step aside? Who decides who is most capable? Who performs their “function” without any personal interest? Such comments show a base naivety.

  12. harri om says:

    Oh and that thing about Yogendra crushing you with his power by deleting you from Facebook was just to see how you took a joke…not to well I should think!! Though it does bring back a recollection of Yogendra assaulting someone for coughing and then refusing to leave the Auditorium. So maybe there’s something in there about Yogendra that isn’t a joke??

  13. Shahriar says:

    I agree. It does show naivety.

    I was talking to myself a few hours ago and I said a few things that I want to share with you. I was angry because enlightenment is not freely available to all, I felt deep hate for Buddha, Jesus, Mohammad, Krishna etc. etc. etc. because they are special, extraordinary, superhuman and so on. Because they are not human. They make others feel inferior, jealous and unworthy. Then I felt that the people who crucified jesus, who poisoned socrates, who murdered manur, wronged osho etc. etc. etc deserve to suffer deeply because they crucified their own salvation, they poisoned those who loved them. Then I felt that the politicians like Ronald Reagan and priests like the Pope and Mother theresa need to burn in hell. I desired to eat their flesh and drink their blood and tear out their eyes and tear them apart limb from limb. Then I said to myself that I reject enlightenment because it is for the chosen few. Because it is not feely available to all, I do not accept it. Then I said that I want food, clothing, water, shelter, someone to love and be loved by, freedom from ambition, to be myself and to have enough and not to have too much. These were what I wanted. And I said that if enlightenment happens to me, it will happen against my will. I said that if enlightenment happends, it will have been forced on me. I will consider myself raped if I become enlightened because to become enlightened is to betray humanity. Because not everyone can become enlightned. Only the chosen few can become enlightened and I want to be human. I want to love and be loved. And this is freely available to all. Everyone can love, but everyone cannot become enlightened. So I said with a loud voice so that Jesus, Buddha, Mohammad and all the other enlightened beings could hear “I do not forgive you, you rejected us, you became extraordinary and you forgot us. You betrayed us. We gave you birth, and you have forgotten us.” Then I said that the people who crucified their saviour and those who loved them need to suffer deeply, myself included because I am also responsible for the state of the world. Then I said with passion and fire and deep feeling “You shall be judged. You shall burn in hell fire and I shall tear your flesh apart and drink your blood. You politicans, business men and you priests!”

  14. garimo says:

    And then I said to myself… “wow!, when does forgiveness and acceptance enter the story?”

  15. Shahriar says:

    And I fell off my chair laughing…

    especially because I was not lying and my words were authentic and true.

    With deep sincerity,

    Laugh out out (LOL)

  16. Shahriar says:

    and with tears also, just to keep the laughter proportionate, otherwise we might lose balance if we choose one and reject the other.

  17. Shahriar says:

    and with foolishness so that we can remain human

  18. garimo says:

    Shahriar,
    Have you gathered much understanding of Osho’s concept of Zorba the Buddha?

    http://www.osho.com/Topics/TopicsEng/Zorba1.HTM

  19. Shahriar says:

    Garimo when the whole of humanity is enlightned, then I will believe that enlightenment is everyone’s potential. I will not believe it until I see it. Until anyone who wants enlightenment can have it and those who don’t want it don’t have to have it, then I will believe and have faith.

    As far as Zorba the Buddha is concerned I have read some things about it. I also feel that it is right, because to be purely spiritual is inhuman. I feel that having sex before marriage, drinking a little beer, having a little affair are what make us human and these things should not be forgotten. Laughter should not be forgotten, love should not be forgotten either. So if I have to choose between samsara and nirvana, I will choose samsara. I remember something a bishop said in response to a question by some philosopher “wherever good people go, they will create heaven for themselves and those around them. and wherever “bad” men go, they will create hell and suffering for themselves and those around them.” So I do think that a world where people have enough food, clothing, shelter, love, freedom, joy, celebration, and song and dance will be heaven. Then nirvana is not needed, because we will have transformed this very world into heaven.

    Then the enlightened ones will begin to desire samsara and they will work so that they can be born on this earth. And they will do disciplines, and austerities so that they can be rewarded by being sent to the earth.

    With deep love,

    Shahriar

  20. Shahriar says:

    And I do not think that meditation is opposed to life and this world. I feel that meditation is the very essence of this world and this life. Meditation is not the ultimate renunciation but the supreme enjoyment. It is the flowering of ecstacy and blissfulness. And it is available IN THIS MOMENT. RIGHT HERE AND RIGHT NOW.

  21. Shahriar says:

    If you do not find it now, you will never find it.
    And if you do not find it here, you will never find it.
    Now is the only time and Here is the only space.
    Therefore ecstacy is not something to be attained in the future, it is something that is to be found here and now. IN this moment. With no delay or postponement.

  22. Shahriar says:

    Enough of God. I am tired of him.

    GOD AND GOD AND GOD AND GOD.
    ENLIGHTENMENT AND ENLIGHTENMENT AND ENLIGHTENMENT AND ENLIGHTENMENT.

    When will it be enough?

    Oh I am exhausted with all this effort for god and enlightenment. It is simply out of my hands now, because I have done everything that is in MY power to do. What more does God expect? I have chased the beloved half way across the galaxy, can we get to f*cking and making love now?

    JESUS CHRIST!

  23. Shahriar says:

    I miswrote that.

    I wanted to say “I have chased the beloved half way across the f*ucking galaxy, can we get to making love now?”

  24. garimo says:

    >>>Garimo when the whole of humanity is enlightned, then I will believe that enlightenment is everyone’s potential.

    The mind can (and does) believe many unexplainable things…

  25. shantam Prem says:

    Dilruba-
    Shantam … l feel this mystery school which Osho has created / happened … will loose its very soul / quality with such a proposal.

    With all my good intentions i have not mixed me into the proposal. 21 people inner circle is not my fantasy, it is His creation.

    He wants these people to mediate at His Samadhi and come on the UNANIMOUS DECISIONS.
    Unanimous decisions may seem to be the mirage, so one goes for majority opinion of the meditators.

    Soul of the mystery school is like a dim fire under the ashes. Let many proposals come forward to enhance this fire.
    But again it should be the home grown proposal, a part of Osho typastry, based on His words and actions and deeds.

    One can not fix a piece of Levis on an Iranian Carpet.

  26. Alok john says:

    I agree with Heraclitus. Of course Dr Amrito, Jayesh etc are not psychopaths, though probably Sheela and some of her gang members were.
    And I wonder if some members of OFI also have personality disorders.

  27. shantam Prem says:

    Shahriar,you know what is the problem
    People are sitting with their guns loaded and are not willing to look who is at the door?
    Intellectually, we are drifting towards the Texasian cow boys. Bush with Bible, Ahmedinijad with Koran and many of us with Osho book, ” God is dead.”

    Please, read again your comments also, and look sincerely inside, how much familiar are you with the ground realities.
    The search for sublime and serenity and search for power and control, all are equally their in the casino of Mystery school.
    Mystery school created and drafted and prepared by Osho, is almost like a gigantic search engine of Google.
    Millions of people are enjoying this experience, because the hands and brains are working in harmony at the head quarters of Google.
    May be the only difference is that at Google’s the driving force, the originators are still alive.
    May be that is a big difference…

  28. Dilruba says:

    Shahriar … you have poured all …. for this moment … beautiful sharing … l have had a ”Msytic Rose ” experiance reading it

    There has always been a debate among fellow travellers about the Mystery school … and we always conclude … that will always remain a Mystery ..

    l / We come to a Master … and what ever post / no post we have at this moment does not make any difference to “His” work … even if we were not there .. someone would be there to do it & in that sense each one of us is doing our own bit … it is not in any ones capacity to stop anyone without the others own readiness to do /not do .. we are here as individuals … and we all have our definitions of Love …. but Truth is undefinable .. and so is Love as they are not different from eachother … this l have known in my journey and lam sure there are many like me … as l also know there nothing special about it

    Shantam / Hari om .. l respect your proposal …as l feel each one’s voice is necessary just as any one’s silence .. the truth will always be intangible !

    Chareveti … Chareveti …

  29. shantam Prem says:

    Shahriar,
    In my feelings Osho created His ashram, keeping in mind people like you. Hundred thousands could avail this opportunity because they dared to come out from the stereo type definitions.
    This is also paradox that without His mystery school we will have thousands of Enlightened ones and in the mystery school may be none.
    Why?
    because the easy to read sermons of Him are so alluring, so intoxicating, just like you open a central spread of Playboy, and feel the “awakening”happening.

    In that sense, Hindi speaking people have the double advantage. May be more than half of His discourses are in His mother tongue and Osho’s command over Hindi is legendary.
    Millions of people in Hindi heartland are enjoying His books. (not because of OFI Or OIF)
    Many young people have become a catalyst of small yet remarkable changes in their immediate environment.
    on the other side, in the last twenty years, world has produced a heavy crop of enlightened people.
    Most of them have use Osho as a Silcon pad for their bust. Naturally the boobs looks great. All these great souls, one can Google at “Sarlo’s guru rating service.”

    Mystery school at Poona was the fire test, water test and acid test for our awakening. It was a complete world in its miniature form.
    Saints and sinners, meditators and fuckers, power hungry and love hungry, young and old, high school drop outs and doctorates; the friction and attraction of all these elements were creating a razor’s edge for the seekers on the path.
    This kind of one of its kind energy experiment is needed now, more than ever. and this NOW will always be.
    Poona in the present form is lacking all these qualities.
    I am so sure about this as Galileo was, for the earth rotating around the sun.
    And it is not just me, many can vouch this. Before i start writ ting, i have discussed different points with many of His people on the Chai and coffee shops at Poona, India and Europe.
    But as it was always, only few become the voice of many. As many can feel, but may be they are not willing to press the key boards buttons.

    I am not enlightened, so are many of the people i have met in Pune but somehow these people radiate something from their being, which is rarely found in the gurus in the market.
    Who says, all the beautiful girls must stand at the street.

  30. Kranti says:

    There is a certain simplicity to Shantam’s proposal..rather than interpreting and assuming 101 things about people and situations in our own way.. it is better to focus on one area like restoring the 21 member Inner Circle which is Osho’s idea.. not anyone else..

    But I also honestly dont know whether it is needed because Osho conceived only one world headquarters and an Organism to manage things..Now we have multiple world head quarters..each will need an Inner Circle.. which they have anyway..

    I also dont know why all those mebers left and whether they would like to contribute again.. ultimately they are in search of their individuality and they would like to flower in their own way.. There is nothing wrong if those people dont want to be part of the Inner Circle..

    Let us how Osho Vision unfolds..

  31. Neo Vivek says:

    “Poona in the present form is lacking all these qualities.”

    I think there is a reality check needed here.

    I am not sure if a razor’s edge for the seekers on the path is being created but pune still attracts, like you mentioned, people from all walks of life.

  32. Kranti says:

    Heraclitus

    ” Anyone who has run an organisation, any organisation, knows how much work is involved. It simply is not everyone’s cup of tea ”

    I agree with you on this point… It needs a certain mind set to run organizations and ready to take up pains and stress and also a certain amount of willingness to manage ‘ things ” whatever it means ..

    But I also feel the challenge here is not whether people in question can run organizations.. they have done that marvellously .. I dont even know whether they wanted to do this.. they may be doing this just because of the love they have for Osho..

    Real issue is about some conflicts on the ‘ Vision Statement ‘ … If that can be modified to include larger range of sannyasins the job is done..because ultimately the organism or organization is there for the larger purpose of sannyasins and not for the purpose of a smaller group..

  33. Anand says:

    When people come to Pune, they come to get more information about Osho, do the Osho Meditations and the Evening White Robe, they book sessions and groups. They meet like-minded travelers from all over the world in a beautiful environment. They get healthy food and good accommodations and they can celebrate and dance or be in silence. In short they get in contact with the world of Osho.
    All this is happening every day, 365 days a years, the master’s vision unfolds.
    Sannyasins and non-sannyasins are invited to participate and put their heart and soul inside.
    None of these new arrivals care, who is in charge of this, or anything about the Inner Circle – they are touched by the love and energy of Osho.
    Strangely all this is still happening to new arrivals, just talk to some of the recent visitors there.
    So I think it does not matter at the end, who is in charge of this all, who is president of OIF right now – this place is running on Osho’s energy alone.
    His ambassadors are all sannyasins out in the world sharing their vision
    in groups and meditations. All this is happening this very moment, every moment….everywhere….amazing isn’t it?
    So Shantam Prem: why worry?
    Maybe time to get out of Germany.

  34. Kranti says:

    ” All this is happening this very moment, every moment….everywhere….amazing isn’t it?”

    It is amazing.. It is about Osho finally.. Not about anyone else..

  35. Kranti says:

    I liked Kartar’s point also. I am absorbing what he said … ” Sometimes we need to allow an appropriate amount of disorder because it’s part of growth. It’s part of letting people explore. It’s part of letting people be themselves “

  36. Neo Vivek says:

    I met 4 kind of people there:
    1. People who are full of life, natural, dedicated to osho, on the journey … – 1 %

    2. People with no jobs/ broken relationships trying to make the most of the time by being in a 5 star luxury environment filled with positive energy – 40 %

    3. Tourists with spiritual/ new age mediative inclination wanting to know what on earth is osho – 50 %

    4. Looking for someone to fuck – 9 %

  37. Heraclitus says:

    The 21. Where are they?
    Some died, some dropped out, leaving very few left. As far as I know Osho gave instructions that when someone died or left then they have to be replaced by someone acceptable to the remaining members. Was this done?
    Alll decisions were also supposed to be unanimous.
    So maybe Thompson or Osho Bob can tell us the exact details of the original 21 and the history?
    Also personally I am not sure about whether osho did actually leave much by way of instructions, doesn’t really sound like him to have done that. What do others think.
    The temporal work does need these work horses. Amrito and Jayesh certainly have stickability and work long hours.
    Those who have left the 21 could easily be said to be those who under the cover of various reasons actually just “retired”, like Anando. And frankly why not? A seemingly thankless job that has no end….
    These wise guys who spring up and say it should be done this way or that have never really understood what is involved in the responsibility of such an organisation and keeping it afloat in every way.

  38. Amrito says:

    beloved friends,

    Sannyasnews really helps in mirroring my own fictions and challenging ready-made ideas.

    I have just finished looking at “The God Conspiracy” on youtube. This is the latest book released by Pune.

    I have to admit, when I checked out the Osho.com website and shop…something incredible is happening like Anand said, 365 days a year.

    Who am I to judge their work in bringing Osho to millions around the world. These publishing houses, whether they make millions or billions, are still responsible for taking Osho to where he’s never been before.

    The beauty and aesthetic quality of Pune is outstanding, and I’ve never shfted from that.

    Nonetheless, I guess my major diagreement lies in its black and white policies on the different people doing Osho’s work. I dont know why they go the extra mile against those whom are genuinely spreading Osho’s vision from their own understanding. I’m not against banning people whom will destroy, hurt or damage others at the meditation resort, but, why ex-communicate those who simply have their own understanding in doing Osho’s work.

    But other than that…I can feel in my heart that there is something beautiful happening everyday there too..

  39. Shahriar says:

    “why ex-communicate those who simply have their own understanding in doing Osho’s work.”

    This is important to remember. Especially since we have seen many other religions like Christianity and Islam make mistakes and go wrong. It seems these relgions are deeply compassionate to us because they are helping to know which paths are wrong. Without them we or someone would have to make the same mistakes so that we could learn, but now we can simply learn from their mistakes.

    Love,

    Shahriar

  40. Kranti says:

    Amrito… Very Beautiful post… I was really touched by what you expressed.. To be honest with you this is my current feeling also..

  41. Kranti says:

    ” Sannyasnews really helps in mirroring my own fictions and challenging ready-made ideas ”

    Same with me Amrito.. This forum and discussions here have given me so much interms of being aware of what is going on inside me , my judgements , my willingness to make conclusions , assumptions , fear and how every one seems to be right in their own way. etc..

    I am greatful to everyone …

    With Love
    Kranti

  42. Dilruba says:

    Who ever Created ” Sannyasnews.com ” Gratitude for making it possible for all of us to Share … it is a virtual Ashram for All of us ..

    l havent been to the Ashram after 11th Dec 2008 … and feel that the Ashram chapter is finished for me … through this forum … l share my living memory at times when there is a need for me to express about it … and l feel even more connected to it .. effortlessly !

  43. shantam Prem says:

    Few points more or less, Neo Vivek, your observatory survey is to the point.
    Kranti, and my inteptation about 21 members inner circle is for Pune only, the very head quarter of Osho, the inner work oriented pilgrimage of our time.
    What happens to Delhi, Kathmandu, Dharamshala, what will happen after Arun, Atul, Neelam or in Europe Veeresh, is the concern of the people who are passionately involved there, they have to find the right solutions after observing the drama at Poona.
    I remember the sentence spoken by a long time Osho sannyasin on the way to Samadhi,” Shantam, they can even change the name to Osho international airport, for people, it will be still an ASHRAM”
    If this computer suvvy swami reads this comment, i want to say, Hallo.

  44. Dhyan Varish says:

    Beloved Ones ,

    I love U all and I’m greatful to !

    Since ” 21 ” years I go to Pune and I’m agree with Amrito , something beautiful happening everyday there too. As I see , It is a open secret , available for all. Meditaion , dancing , relaxing , swiming , having fun together and just be as U are.

    Love

  45. Shahriar says:

    Maybe the world has a purpose. Maybe there is a deeper significance in the state the world is in. For instance, suffering. People dislike suffering, but without suffering, ecstacy and joy and blissfulness will not have any meaning to us either. If you have never suffered, it will be difficult for you to appreciate and treasure ecstacy. Perhaps enlightenment is something that everyone has, but unless you lose it, you will not be able to appreciate it and unless you suffer the misery of unenlightenment and become mature, you will not be able to feel the value of enlightenment. And perhaps my complaints against existence are wrong, and things are truly happening as they should be happening.

  46. Shahriar says:

    I think living in a commune is a beautiful thing. Because we can all expose ourselves as we are and learn and mature from our experiences. It seems to me that a commune is not an ordinary social gathering, that there is some deeper purpose and significance to that gathering. That we are there to learn about ourselves through our relations to one another. And that we are there to balance love and aloneness, so that both of our wings are there. So that we are not there just to hang out, because that happens anywhere and everywhere. But rather to learn from our experiences, and understand our own selves. To become aware so that we are not just repeating the same foolishnesses and stupidities that the whole of humanity is repeating. To grow up instead of growing old. With no judgment about ourselves or about others. With a deep acceptance of our whole and total selves and of those who are living with us and around us. A deep understanding of each other without any condemnation or judgment. So that we may realize the deeper purpose and significance of our existence and fulfill our purpose and meaning.

  47. shantam Prem says:

    Amrito-
    “Nonetheless, I guess my major diagreement lies in its black and white policies on the different people doing Osho’s work. I dont know why they go the extra mile against those whom are genuinely spreading Osho’s vision from their own understanding. I’m not against banning people whom will destroy, hurt or damage others at the meditation resort, but, why ex-communicate those who simply have their own understanding in doing Osho’s work.
    But other than that…I can feel in my heart that there is something beautiful happening everyday there too..”

    This something beautiful will go on happening their all the time. Not because it has a swiming pool and a gym but A MASTER of our time, who was all in favour of the best technological development and comforts of our time, has showered His love and compassion there. The roots of His work are there.

    He is not a Deepak Chopra of our time, He is a Gautma the Buddha of our time.

    I quote in my words from a sikh poem, ” where the Satguru” was sitting, it will always remain green and the cool breeze will touch the hearts, even the insects living their are blessed.”

    But than in our time another school of thought is growing, God is dead, master disciple relation ends the day one dies, so go on reading the books, do some breathing gymnastic eat healthy, earn money in the share mareket and yes, fuck the girls half your age..who says this is not enLIDLment!

  48. shantam Prem says:

    Shahriar,
    when people are going to see your photo.
    come on, join the ordinary folks at facebook.

  49. Kartar says:

    I’m not concerned with the Inner Circle we all have different lenses, different gifts, different wiring, and different experiences. Difference is not something to be judged but to be enjoyed, it is a gift of diversity that brings the pieces of the puzzle of life together and creates the Inner Circle and the Pune Resort, and all the other official and non-official Osho meditation centers together for the benefit of us all. You can even start your own inner circle showing no disturbance at all. We all came on to this earth equal and we’re all checking out as equals. What happens in between is just a series of different life experiences.

  50. shantam Prem says:

    Hari Om,
    when you are going to tell something about yourself?

  51. Harri Om says:

    Authentic seakers expressing authentic thoughts…nice.

    People come and people go. I like someone and someelse dislikes them. This person is in charge of the resort…that person was…and those people will be.

    Like the swirling rythm of this comments page, does it really matter whether the situation with the inner-circle, resort management, or any other Osho related organisation is this way or that?

    The answer is yes, and it is important to understand exactly why.

    Imagine if you were at The Ranch and you new that Sheila was conspiring to murder. If you also love and trust Osho your beloved master surely this puts you in a state of serious conflict.

    The matter gets complicated because Osho often explained that he used devices to helps his sannyassins. If you got a “zen stick” hit from Osho that was a good thing’.

    Even when Osho was in the body this is problematic. When you felt like you received a zen stick hit, was it really from Osho, or was it just someone on their own trip trying to trample on you.

    Now that Osho has dispersed, who is enlightened and therefore capable of administering a genuine zen stick hit? It is reasonable to say that only an enlightened person can know another enlightened person.

    Even if for example you think someone like Jayesh or Amrito is enlightened, and you received a hit from one of them, was it really? Are they really enlightened?

    I am not asking you to answer this question. What am am however asking you is that if this is part of the way you are living your Osho sannyassin life, that you are clear on that.

    Now back to Sheila and The Ranch. I would argue that even if you were right that Osho knew Sheila’s murderous ways, you would be wrong not to approach the authorities about the murder conspiracy.

    Part of the message from the master (I think) is that trust yourself first…know yourself first…

    Now onwards to the current debate about Pune, inner-circle etc etc. It really does not matter if Pune looks pretty, or you have a personality conflict with Jayesh. What does matter however is whether or not people in resort management or the inner-circle are commiting ethical and criminal acts.

    I am not here implying that this is the case, though it has been stated by numerous people about numerous issues. Also, the laws and the enforcement of them in India tend to work either the way of the highest bidder, or the way that supports the cause of a corrupt politician.

    No doubt Sheila committed endless ethical blunders and minor crimes before she embarked down the road of attempted murder.

    I simply ask that any authentic Osho seaker be aware of any pattern of thought (belief) that they have that this or that person is enlightened and therefor everything done to me or to others is perfectly OK.

    Finally, many many peoples livelihood (there status and their income) depends on the years they have cultivated friendships and allies throughout the heirarchy of the inner-circle. It is not just the lives of inner-circle members that may be drastically altered if a dramatic power-shift were to take place.

    Imagine if I am no longer going to get paid by Jayesh because he has gone broke and is now no longer even a member of the inner-circle. This I would find tremendously unsettling…

  52. Dilruba says:

    When Osho said ” ten thousand Buddhas ” in Buddha Hall is / was he referring to the rikshawallas outside on the road …
    But now when l listen to him … l know he is / was saying to the whole of Existance … even that moment he said it to all … but only now lam able to get it … still maybe lam missing something …

    When the Master Choicelessly put all his energy into his Disciples .. how is it not possible that we dont have the courage to say we are Buddhas .. lam amazed !

    if l dont acknowledge anyones Buddhahood … how can l be one ..
    am l not stopping my own growth by doing so … lam wondering !

    the Sheela episode happened inspite of Osho being the body … does it not mean that somthings / all things are inevitable …

    About imagining Jayesh going broke … When one door closes … another / many open .. this applies to Jayesh as well as all who are dependent him .. and All !

  53. Neo Vivek says:

    I imagine Jayesh saying to himself..
    Jayesh: I gave all my being to be where i am today. I am happy and more over i believe i am doing exactly what my osho asked me to do. EndOfStory.

  54. Alok john says:

    Kartar writes “We all came on to this earth equal and we’re all checking out as equals.” I think this is not Osho’s teaching.

    New and old sannyasins might like to read about the concept of one’s ego being hit in the mystery school in books by Ma Satya Bharti :

    The Ultimate Risk, also entitled Drunk on the Divine
    and
    Death Comes Dancing.

    Pune was never just sweetness love and light, you can have your ego hit there very hard indeed. It has always been like that.

    Try bookfinder.com for these out of print books. They are good descriptions of the processes people went through in Pune 1

  55. shantam Prem says:

    Hari Om, Anand and others,
    When you will tell about yourself?

    It is also one of the established principles, that those who take the stand in public on ethical, moral and spiritual grounds, irrespective for which side they speak, these activists must show their faces too, unless they belong to the Bin Laden goons.
    It gives integrity to them and to their cause. If one is afraid from the consequences, better to remain silent.
    Many of Sannyasins live in this silence. I see only the golden light, i feel only love…yet i appreciate the discourses preaching rebelliousness and intelligent defiance.
    It comes many times in my thoughts, that the way i am writ ting, it may freak out the authorities and under the instructions, their Chemical Ali, can hire any one in few hundred rupees, to slap me on Pune roads or to pay few thousand rupees to the lower ranks in Police, and shantam is being beaten in prison on this and that pretext..
    So i hope the fellow travelers at the ashram simply keep their limits up to the banning.
    Potentials of us humans are great, from minus infinity till infinity plus.

  56. Ashik says:

    You must remember that whatever happens the club must keep its standards up andd no one may disturb the conventions or rules.
    In a societal situation one is socialised so that one may understand what one can or cannot do . To break these rules which are often unwritten or unseen is forbidden. But everyone knows that you cannot do that because its not good for the society.

    Osho saw how Man and Woman are socialised to behave and how ones divine nature was corrupted or perverted by society and its rules. In My humble but possibly distorted view his way was to allow anyone to see and find his or her own route to opennness and awareness ,but not to gain power or to be more sexy or even enlightened but just to be.

    Is it not enough for each of us to use what comes up and live it just to be ?
    Do we need to reinvent religions? And go down the yellow brick road looking for that wizard again?
    Be well
    Love well
    Live well
    This bear of little brain tries to do that

  57. Dilruba says:

    Ashik .. sorry man jus could not get what you are saying … can you give us one more chance please !

  58. Kranti says:

    ” his way was to allow anyone to see and find his or her own route to opennness and awareness ”

    Thats what He said..Didnt he?.. Urging everyone to create their own path to awareness..

    ” Is it not enough for each of us to use what comes up and live it just to be ? Do we need to reinvent religions? ”

    Ultimately we have to ‘ use what comes up and live “..

    Thats enough .. But ‘ how to ‘ is the question ? Only to address that question we seek answers thru religions..

    But as they say they are all POINTERS.. What happens is ultimately INSIDE..

    Osho created Neo – sannyas.. now we have Neo-Advaita everywhere ..

    Are all these not ‘ reinventing religions?

  59. Kranti says:

    Are all these not ‘ reinventing religions? or rather reinventing religiousness ?

  60. garimo says:

    I’m triggered by:
    >>>>>>”Even if for example you think someone like Jayesh or Amrito is enlightened, and you received a hit from one of them, was it really? Are they really enlightened?
    I>>> am not asking you to answer this question. What am am however asking you is that if this is part of the way you are living your Osho sannyassin life, that you are clear on that.”

    What I’m clear/not clear on… is what’s with all the obsession about others being enlightened or not enlightened? Is that really any of my business? What difference does it make?
    Even if they do know their place in existence… are not both enlightened and unenlightened maneuvering through life, doing the best they can to meet their basic human needs…just like me?

    Seems to me any questions considered would be: Am I so unbalanced in my life today that someone can shake me with their notions? Am I in a position where someone’s so called “zen hit” has effect on me, without my choosing-allowing? if yes then why?

    … I guess I just trusted when I heard I’m on the same bus as everyone and eventually we’ll all get to our destination… not to worry, there’s no way to miss our stop. Transfers available if needed.

    Freedom is all their is.

    I’m not troubled with anyone being interested with who is or isn’t enlightened. It’s just that I’m sharing (maybe I shouldn’t) it’s not a concern I relate to, my mind is needed to observe my own human needs. If I need to feel justice, I need to request it. If I need to feel validated, I somehow need to request it. If I need to feel included, I need to request it, If I need to feel being treated fairly, I somehow need to request it… It’s my job to meet my needs, not anybody else’s regardless of their enlightened status.

    I keep asking myself why I’m reading and writing on this sannyas page. I see I don’t connect with much of the conversation and feel like I’m interfering more than connecting.

    Are others also looking for connections so that ‘inner thing’ that we all share can find itself in each other, or is the preference to talk about how our unfulfilled needs would be met by controlling the actions of others – how everything would be great if only ‘they’ were different?

    just feeling disconnected… not dependent.

    Freedom is all there is.
    Time to step away from the computer.
    -g

  61. garimo says:

    >>>”Are others also looking for connections so that ‘inner thing’ that we all share can find itself in each other, or is the preference to talk about how our unfulfilled needs would be met by controlling the actions of others…”

    Oh… maybe it’s both…
    Okay then, nevermind.

  62. Kranti says:

    I think the space has freedom / no freedom..

    It seems when you dont have to move you can be still & free.. when you move you cant ask for freedom..you need to choose..

    I just said something..nevermind anyway..I am on Garimo way..

  63. shantam Prem says:

    Faith, belief, Lord, God, meditation, masters, existance…Churches, ashrams..
    Below is one of the latest news video, at least it made my eyes wet.


    The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

    God may be dead for few and alive for few, but the longing in the heart of the main character in the video, is quite touching.
    Don’t tell she will not get the truth because she did not do Dynamic!

  64. Kartar says:

    Alok you said Kartar writes “We all came on to this earth equal and we’re all checking out as equals.” I think this is not Osho’s teaching.

    Osho did say this, only these are my words used in the same context. Guess it depends on your minds interpretation and conditioning with your response.

    Hari Om doubt whether Jayesh will go broke.

    Kranti I agree with your comments.

    Shantam: I am on sannyas wiki

    Dilruba love what you say.

    Neo Vivek : End of story always brings new beginnings,

    Garimo: Great stuff you have just written I agree

    Ashik: Good points

  65. garimo says:

    :-)
    Katar too thinks
    I should step away from my computer…

  66. Kartar says:

    YES time for me to go !!! bye for now lovers.

  67. shantam Prem says:

    Hi Shunyam Kartar,
    Thanks for introducing Sannyas wiki.
    Right now, does not seem many people into it, but seems fire will catch up.
    The main photo, He and His people in Buddha Hall, just in 20 years it has become nostalgic, seems like Last Supper of Jesus, 2000 years ago.

  68. shantam Prem says:

    Garimo-
    “- how everything would be great if only ‘they’ were different?”

    “They” are always here from the time immortal, even before humans started using script.

    Everything is great inspite of them or us, you or me.
    Is this not Enlighenment?
    (just joking)

  69. Neo Vivek says:

    garimo: “If I need to feel justice, I need to request it. If I need to feel validated, I somehow need to request it. If I need to feel included, I need to request it ”

    something feels incomplete there… request it from Whom?!
    Any how, my own truth, i never got validation by requesting it from someone outside.

  70. Neo Vivek says:

    Shantam Prem
    Your courage is appreciable… though you reminded me of that osho joke where the young women walking with a man in late evening expresses that she her vernurability and the fear of being exploited by him. When the man re-assures, she goes ahead gives him ideas of ways he could exploit her in order to justify her vernurability.

    Anyhow you are much more free to express.
    Your writing flows.. the style of expression in most your posts leaves me spellbound.
    Filled with admiration for that ability in you.

  71. Neo Vivek says:

    - evening expresses *that she* her vernurability and the fear of
    + evening expresses her vernurability and the fear of

  72. shantam Prem says:

    Sometime the life itself haunts us, teases us that how long you will go on listening spell bounded the stories of some one’s heroic acts, won’t you like to be one of them.
    As a teenager you see the movies of other people making love, you long also to do the same one day.
    Life brings the chance, waiting gets full filled, but than the question comes, Will you go for it or will you run away.
    I think most of us will go the fuck (love)way, but as the advertisements go on reminding us in the time of Aids,” Don’t forget your protection.”

  73. Neo Vivek says:

    Kartar, nicely put : ” End of story always brings new beginnings “

  74. garimo says:

    Neo Vivek asks:
    >>garimo: “If I need to feel justice, I need to request it. If I need to feel validated, I somehow need to request it. If I need to feel included, I need to request it ”

    I can make a request of anyone outside of me and if it’s not something they want to do… they have freedom to say no. If I’m wanting harmony then it’s best for me to accept the no. and then request of myself to find another way. Maybe it will be up to me.

    I’ve was in a group meeting of about 90 people not so long ago where the person speaking was going around the group and having people stand up and sharing what work each have been doing and everyone was applauding… But because the contribution and work I had done was organizational before hand that brought these people together and not something as tangible that everyone could see it… I was over looked… So rather than going away feeling taken for granted unnoticed and knowing I’d have hurt feelings because of my unmet needs if I just sat there… I stood up and said “Hey! what about me? I want acknowledgment too!… and I got it. and later a woman thanked me for asking for what I needed.

  75. Harri Om says:

    Shantam you would like to know a little more about me. I would like to know if for my writings I will be banned. Do you think so?

    Garimo I agree with your view about enlightenment and individual choice and responsibility. This however was not what I was getting at.

    If Osho was in the body and ordered that the Buddha Hall pogoda be smashed into little pieces in the pre-dawn glow (I was there at dawn), the answer of why is obvious. It was Osho’s way of giving us all a lesson in attachment.

    Osho however was not in the body when the pogoda was smashed into little pieces (I now have a little piece). If an enlightened person gave the order then the answer of why is obvious.

    Many people accepted what happened because they assumed that an enlightened Osho disciple(s) gave the instruction to smash the pogoda. Some of these people were deeply hurt, yet in time moved on…learning the lesson of attachment.

    However if the motivation for smashing the pagoda was with ill-intent from an unenlightened managerial individual or group, then this act was and is reprehensible.

    If the pagoda was cared for in time (many years from now) the wood would needed to be replaced. The marble would have remained. There is sufficient authentic Osho marble to re-build the pagoda. Also, some marble pieces from the original pagoda can be used to create one marble square (jigsaw fassion) as a symbol to all of the value of the sacred and how easily it can be lost. New wood can be used, as would anyhow have been the case many years from now. If this process is performed carefully (with care) the pagoda will be neither a replica nor and imitation…it will be the Buddha Hall pagoda.

    Beautiful and meaningful physical structures tended to with care are the outer expression of the inner sacred temple that we all are trying to honour. Osho new that and the vacant area where the pagoda once stood is testimony to the fact that those in charge at the so-called resort do not.

    This is why it does matter who and who is not enlightened.

  76. Dilruba says:

    Harri Om … l cannot digest that you have a fear of being banned .. anyway … hope someday you will be able to reveal your identity on this forum ..

  77. Anand says:

    Hari Om….I can’t believe you are in favor of restructuring the podium. It is stone and wood and people are worshipping all kind of things. The energy of Osho is in the whole place due to its content of meditative energy of the thousands of seekers passing through. The energy is in the bamboos, in the gardens, with the swan….it is all around. We are all really going back to the stoneage, if we start now to worship platforms, where Osho has been talking. Like the marble of Osho’s bedroom, which smart sannyasins started to sell as jewelry….
    That was one of the reasons Jayesh took those structures down (beside building codes) to get rid of our existing religious minds.
    We are here to awaken, not to worship stones.

  78. Harri Om says:

    Bleary eyed I arise to find myself weakened by my own games.

    Thankyou Anand…I am a fool! Look at me espousing grand things and I don’t even have the courage to risk being banned. I even congratulated people for having the courage to be banned, yet I have not the courage myself. I apologise to all the banned buddhas (excluding of course people Osho himself banned, and no doubt some others along the way). My words are empty vessels floating on a sea of deception and unfolding misery.

    Just look at Shahriar. After I (probably wrongly) threw a blunt accusation of naivety Shahriar had the courage to look inside and say yes indeed I agree that in this moment I am being naive. Shahriar is not naive; Shariar has displayed immense courage and maturity.

    Of course I might add that it is the developments of a modern day technological society that have allowed humanity the time to go in. It is the grand structures that we have learned to create that can surround and imbibe meditators and allow them, surrounded by silence, to go in and discover their own inner temple.

    Not much meditation can be done in a buddha field that is bludgeoned by the kind of stone age mentality that destroyed in the quiet of night (and shrouded in secrecy) a beautiful pagoda.

    Yes the material covering the tent structure was wearing thin with age, and of course the structure was not approved by council. However Pune Municipal Council intervened to make sure that no further damage take place…thankfully the podium remains intact. Presumably therefore the council was amenable to discussion about the Buddha Hall complex.

    I have read some of Jayesh’s counsel to managerial people at the resort. His words are flavoured with considerably spiritual terminology that imply he is Osho’s enlightened successor. He may well have also believed that until the unfortunate terrorist incident he got caught up in in Mumbai. Just ask him whether, hidden in that hotel room in the most horrible of circumstances, he remained in a blissfully enlightened state…and for that matter ask Mukesh the same question.

    Osho appointed Jayesh as president of a management body not a spirtual theocracy. He did this for two reasons. Firstly he was (and i repeat was) good with money, and secondly he had (and I say has) a tendancy towards psychopathic neurosis. Remember that Osho also appointed Sheela has commander in chief of The Ranch…and we all know how enlightened she was.

  79. Shahriar says:

    Hari Om, when you said that your accusation was probably wrong, it was not totally wrong. I am not as experienced in the ways of the world so my statements are certainly a bit naive and dreamy. The reason I did not deny it is because when I was growing up, certain experiences helped me to understand something: I have an uncle, who is expert in the art of self-deception. He believes that just by saying that something is not true, or by ignoring the truth, things will change. I have seen this to be a very inffective way of dealing with things because my uncle has not solved any of his life problems by avoiding the truth. So I have learnt through seeing his life, that avoiding the truth does not solve anything. Another thing is that if I was not naive and you were calling me naive, than to deny it would be foolish. I could simply laugh and take it as a joke.

    Garimo, you were talking about requesting certain things. As far as justice and freedom are concerned, I think the only way is to take them, forcibly if necessary. As far as love is concerned, it is beautiful to be sincere and simply say that I would like love, although this does not mean simply taking, taking, taking, and no giving. I personally never ask for love, because it is against my ego to acknowledge that I am a human being and that I need such things as “love”. I am superhuman and as such I am beyond such human things. You all being ordinary human mortals with all your weaknesses can have them, but me?!? Don’t you know who I am?

    I am really arrogant and that makes it hard to relate to people, I somehow always take the conversation away from a normal human conversation and turn it into a sermon. LOL.

    Love

  80. Kranti says:

    ” However if the motivation for smashing the pagoda was with ill-intent from an unenlightened managerial individual or group, then this act was and is reprehensible.”

    How do we say the intent is ill.. They have a different view of of Osho vision..I think they did that to move over to the new auditorium wih a postive intent..

    Ofcourse that doesnt mean everyone will be able to digest it as they still relate to Osho using that structure..In that sense i respect your feelings..

    “Beautiful and meaningful physical structures tended to with care are the outer expression of the inner sacred temple that we all are trying to honour”

    Again I respect your feelings and the way you relate..But thats exactly Osho wanted us go beyond.. although it is painful because of our projections..

    Of late i am beginning to understand everyone has their own subjective projections and those are exactly the kind of conditionings one needs to go beyond.. We all have our projetions..and we need to go beyond them..

    Whereas i may not cling to a physical structure i do see Osho everywhere in the resort.. I hug the bamboos. Tomorrow if that bamboos are cut down i will feel immenselyt sad…

    So i can not say my projections are meaningful and your projections are childish

    I fully agree with Anand on the below…

    ‘The energy is in the bamboos, in the gardens, with the swan….it is all around’

    Last time when i was there i saw few trees being cut down and i did feel painful..But i am also aware i need understand and become more aware of the way i relate to everything…

  81. Kranti says:

    If everyone has their projections and way of relating to Osho and it needs to be respected , then how the resort is supposed to function?

    By achieving a balance???? .. But we need to define that balance..

    Someone’s balance may be an extereme for another..seems to be difficult.. Let me know what you all think about this ‘ balance ‘ in approach.. Balance between Head Vs Heart..

    May be it can be a new thread … Head Vs Heart..

    sometimes there will not be solutions if we fish around tentaively and superficially ..We may have to go deepper into dtails so as to list out things which people want to see or dont want to see..

  82. Kranti says:

    Hari Om you say…

    ” Bleary eyed I arise to find myself weakened by my own games.

    Thankyou Anand…I am a fool! Look at me espousing grand things and I don’t even have the courage to risk being banned. I even congratulated people for having the courage to be banned, yet I have not the courage myself ”

    You are a TRUE TRUE Osho sannyasin..

  83. Shahriar says:

    Maybe what the problem is is that good-intentioned people can do much wrong. So perhaps when we are debating about whether they have seen the truth or not, it is not so much to find out what their intentions are but rather to see whether they are conscious enough to “do something”. For example, communists during the russian revolution were very good-intentioned individuals. They truly thought that what they were doing was right, and of course we saw joseph stalin come out of it. The muslims in Iran are good-intentioned people. They really think that what they are doing is good. (Now something that needs to be said here is that the Iranian revolution was a people’s revolution. People often look on them as evil and bad, but they cannot be said to be totally bad and the west to be totally good. The shah of Iran was destroying the dignity of Iran by his slavery to the west and his adoption of western ideas and values which in themselves are not bad but he was losing his own individuality in the process. The people of America and the west are good, honest, upright people. But the western politicans have no mercy or value for human life. The west was interested in destroying the dignity of the muslim people which Khomeini opposed. And America has no love. It does not love its own people, it does not love anyone else in the world either. It is absolutely cold and willing do anything and everything in its pursuit of advancement. Therewore it does not hesitate in murdering its own people, or the peoples of other nations. The youth of Iran who recently were rebellious need to be condemed for their weakness and their cowardice. When the muslim revolutionaries in 1970 revolted, they were willing and they did give their blood for the cause, whether right or wrong. These Iranian youth had were not even willing to sacrifice comfort. When bullets were being shot these people ran away. A few guards were enough to drive them away. Those who are not willing to fight for freedom do not deserve it. Freedom is not cheap. It is not easy. Freedom has to be purchased with blood, water will not do, money will not do either. Blood is the coin by which freedom and dignity are purchased. Nothing less than that. Therefore I condemn the iranian youth because they are/were cowadly and weak. If freedom was truly their desire, they would have been willing to sacrifice their life for it and to give their blood for the cause of freedom. But they were unwilling and therefore they deserve to remain enslaved until such time as they are courageous enough and strong enough to sacrifice and to undergo hardship and difficulty. The revolutionaries of 1970 were courageous and strong, they were devoted and willing. There could lay down their lives in a single moment if it was asked of them. Only such people deserve freedom because they are willing to pay for it. Cowards deserve slavery, the weak deserve slavery. Those who are unwilling to suffer for their freedom and dignity, do not deserve it. What kind of freedom is it that comes cheaply, what kind of dignity is it that is bought with money? So I want it to be remembered that no lover of freedom, or truth, or justice or dignity has been cowardly and weak. Mahatma gandi was a business man. He had no guts. He was willing to compromise. He had no integrity. He was cowardly and weak. Did the british have mercy when they were occupying India? No they did not, so why should the Indians have mercy? They should use force and they should fight. Martin Luther King is also a business man and I have every condemnation of him for his cowardice, his weakness and his business like attitude towards freedom. Freedom is fought for. It does not come cheaply. It is earned. He has forever destroyed the dignity of the black people by telling them to compromise with the people who enslaved them. He has destroyed their very soul. They should have fought against the white people and repayed them for what was done to them, but no. They chose cowardice and weakness and compromise. America is not loving. America is cold and cruel and heartly. America is a machine. It does not believe in nonviolence. Neither should you. I hate cowards and those who are weak. I despise soldiers who dare not fight. America is willing to butcher other people if it serves it purpose and America is willing to butcher its own people. Mahatma gandi and Martin luther king were businessmen and they believed in compromise. Truth does not believe in compromise. Therefore cowardice, weakness, foolishness, and compromise are to be despised. They are to be despised. This world is not based on love. Therefore do not hold illusions but awaken to the reality. War is the way, struggle is the way, fight is way. The weak deserve to be oppressed and raped. The cowardly deserve to be enslaved. The fools deserve to be cheated. Those who compromise are to be despised as lacking in integrity. Those with integrity do not compromise. They fight and they earn their dignity and freedom through sweat, tears and blood. Let me repeat: sweat, tears and blood. Through suffering and sacrifice and harships and work. Nothing less will do.) So perhaps what we are interested in knowing is whether they are “wise” or “foolish” not so much whether they are good or bad. Because Martin Luther Kind and Mahatma Gandi were good fools. And they destroyed indian and the black peopl. India was divided because the hatred was not directed against the british and Martin Luther King destroyed the black people because they lost their spirit. They violence was misdirected and now all or most of the blacks have become drugdealers, they remain poor and underprivileged. Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi think themselves to be very good people. They are worst than Adolf Hitler. Let me repeat. They are worst than Adolf Hitler.

  84. Shahriar says:

    At least Adolf Hitler was straightforward about what he was doing and what he did.

  85. Shahriar says:

    I despise hypocricy and pretension.

  86. harri om says:

    Kranti, Anand, and others…

    I remember Mukta once saying that when she entered a temple in Tibet there was a vibe there like she had never known. She said that she felt like she could have stayed there forever and that it was extremely difficult to leave. What was that???

  87. Anand says:

    There is this rumor, that Jayesh is good with money. That needs to be proven.
    Since all is secrecy about that subject, nobody knows. It might be for the good,
    could be bad news too. Some point to the facts, that the resort had very little improvements recently and lost its superior quality against Indian standards, while India has been catching up very well and bypassed our own standards in Pune (see the ‘O’ hotel). The OIF headquarters in NY also were on a sliding scale downwards
    from the Lexington office to the Union Square cubicles…..there is really not much to show for except that the resort is still standing and kicking, although in the eyes of repeat visitors on a smaller flame.
    The law cases were all lost so far, so was that a wise investment for large sums going to the lawyers?
    Overall his record with finances look pretty questionable….

  88. Neo Vivek says:

    Shahriar
    I think everyone, and i repeat everybody does things because they think it is the right thing to do.
    Nobody goes ahead doing things because they think it is the wrong thing to do.
    Most of the time, espc with the so called bad looking guys… the reasoning usually is connected to greater good philosophy ( like America at war with one country or another since past 60 years.. or more?! )

  89. Dilruba says:

    Shahriar … l respect what you say … but dear arent we Free anyway … now l realize that lam free inspite of them {politicians/ businessman} … and feel my inside is responsible for me to realize that … even though outside does help if one has a free outside {world} but who cares in that sense …

    lf all persons without any exception had to have Awareness there would never be any need for freedom as then there would never have been conquests / empires / countries .. this is the paradox of Life …

    in hindi there is a saying ” daant hai to channe nahi ….. channne hai to daant nahi ” translation ”when one has teeth to eat one doesnt have nuts to eat … when one has nuts to eat then there are no teeth ”

    Love n Truth are jus words until one realizes it .. this l say with no arrogance … l guess thats what All Masters are pointing at … l am sure many have realized this … lam not the only one ..

  90. Neo Vivek says:

    Love and Truth are words
    Loving and truthfulness ? my interpretation is that is what masters have been pointing at…

  91. Dilruba says:

    this sharing is in refenence to Shahriar’s sharing … l totally agree with your sharing …

  92. groucho marx says:

    `Now all or most of the blacks are drugdealers`

    `At least Hitler was straightforward about what he was doing`

    What next guys?

    `Joe Goebbels made some excellent videos`??

    And dont forget how generously the British built the Indian Railways..

  93. Kranti says:

    Hari Om

    I have also felt samething in Pune during my first visit.. even now when i am sitting in Buddha Grove i feel so fulfilled.. But i know my love for Osho is projected everywhere there.. I have had few expereinces which are out of this world..

    I honestly dont know about Muktas experience… Something must have felt in Sync.. You will never know what it is..

    I am not denying that there is space for such subjective experienes..

    All we are saying is individual experinces are individual experiences..But when you try to run a place like Pune how do we decide the approach esspecially considering how Osho used to say things in different context . It is very difficult to quote Osho and do something..

    But if you look for one thread which was there in all of what Osho said.. it is living in the present moment and going on dropping the past and he was against all kinds of things be it worshipping or following systems which are hurdles to move on with life..

    As long as Pune is flowing and not getting struck with a fixated idealogy of how things should be then they are doing exactly what Osho wanted..

    I can have few things on changes i would like to see..but that are only my projections and by and large ..let me say 80 % of what Pune does is in Sync with Osho way…

    May be , just may be they could have left few parts of Buddha Grove for older generations.. But beyond that i cant think of anything whgich needs to be changed

    But you may know things which are not to know to people like me or Shariar.. and you may look at things from that point of few..

    Comapred to older sannyasins new ones will not even have any attachement towartds Osho as a personality and they will not have too many requirements to see a chnage..

  94. Dilruba says:

    Groucho Marx … jus sharing …

    generosity is an illussion my dear … maybe sharing yes ..

  95. Neo Vivek says:

    Kranti said
    “As long as Pune is flowing and not getting struck with a fixated idealogy of how things should be then they are doing exactly what Osho wanted..”

    What is puzzling is that does pune have a “NEW fixated ideology?!! ” … everything decided through the measuring rod of money. A average sannyasin cannot stay there for longer periods unless she/ he gets enrolled into work as meditation program. She/he will sooner or later run out of money.

    So, at the end of the day, majority are tourists who come for few days and go… nobody gets to live there for longer periods and get a true feel of living osho’s vision (even if they want to) unless they are untra rich or ready to be workers for pune management.

    Now, as we all know, tourists come with an intention to spend money…. makes perfect business sense.

  96. Kranti says:

    Neo Vivek..

    I am no sure whether Pune adopted to people & their requirements which changed or people adopted to Pune which changed ..

    As someone said earlier in the posts now people may be willing to stay only for short periods and move on..The way people used to hang around Pune when Osho was in body was there until sometime and slowly got diluted..Now people / things might have changed

    as far as money is concerned i think an increase of entry fee from Rs.20 in 1990 to Rs.200 now twenty years later is very reasonable..

    Staying inside and working also has undergone changes.. But i am not sure whether that has anything to do with money..

    As Shantam used to say Customer preferences seems to have undergone a sea change

  97. Dilruba says:

    Neo Vivek …. when l came in 1992 the sticker was Rs 20 …and l had rs 5000 to survive maximum 6months … i didnt take any free sticker then … but a lot of people including me were amazed that l did survive not because l had money but there was something more than that … and l have seen many sanyassins in worse conditions than mine who are happy to lead a life on their own terms .. money comes & goes .. and one should have an inner calling … then one can bypass all these trivialities … luke warm attitude wont do .. one has to stake All ….

  98. Neo Vivek says:

    I have few things to say.

    1. When osho was in his body, it was much more easy to stake it all. In 2009, his movement is much much more diluted. For most in pune, enlightenment / having buddha like quality inside is as achievable as meeting an extra territorial alien and having a drink with him.

    2. @ Kranti – People don’t change, people never change. Osho changed to whole game and the basic rules of the game.. now the rules have got changed back to ordinary business rules.

    3. @Dilruba – Average cost for a Indian Sannyasin for 6 months without free stickers and free accommodation would be Rs 1,80,000. … 1000 per day.
    Frugal living: min 700 per day.
    For westerner 1350 per day, minimum.

  99. Dilruba says:

    the Master is always available … it depends on the Disciple … the fire is needed in all cases without any exception … between Master – Disciple there are exists no calculations .. this is my experiance …

  100. Neo Vivek says:

    Well, i can understand your point of view.

    Yes mind has to be dropped… but i much rather drop it in love with someone alive. Afterall its the quality of dropping, not whom you drop it with that should matters? What do you think?

  101. Kranti says:

    Neo Vivek

    I jsut mentioned the entry fee alone which seems reasonable..But if one has to stay & eat inside the resort then ofcourse it is very costly and beyond reach of most of the Indians at least..

    ” Osho changed to whole game and the basic rules of the game.. now the rules have got changed back to ordinary business rules.”

    Sure..Agreed..Things can not be the same without Master in body no matter how much we keep saying it does not matter.. Until we become enlightened..

    ” For most in pune, enlightenment / having buddha like quality inside is as achievable as meeting an extra territorial alien and having a drink with him.”

    Not sure about pune..

    But in general I have a different view here lookng at the Neo Advaitha scene which is unfolding… More than ever in history now it seems enlightenment or awakening seems easiest … If you listen to a Adya or Mooji they strip the awakening of all jargons and make you belive it is possible right now..

    I have understood so much from them and that understanding has given me deep silence.. there is no denying it… The final explosion, if there is one seems to be more dependent on the individuals letting go..

    if you have not come across already please see link.. very beautiful site..no jargons nothing.. simple and direct about awakening..

    http://www.theendofseeking.net/

  102. Dilruba says:

    is anyone stopping anyone from doing that ?

  103. Dilruba says:

    This not a point of view … it the Truth !

  104. Dilruba says:

    its

  105. Kranti says:

    ” Afterall its the quality of dropping, not whom you drop it with that should matters? What do you think? ”

    With due respect to you and Dilruba..my current understanding is the whole game is the dropping of ME, the person inside and allowing life to use the body-mind mechanism to carry on for life’s purpse.. there is no such thing as ‘ Me or You dropping ‘ or ‘ dropping with / for someone ‘.. Those are still part of mind efforts..

    as i said i am really understanding a lot from the Neo advaitha teachers..

  106. Dilruba says:

    Kranti … who is trying to understand ?

  107. Kranti says:

    ” Kranti … who is trying to understand ?”

    They say ‘ Thats the last dropping’… It is just a dis-identificatin / understanding process that happens…the more it happens the less ME will be left out..

    In a sense you are right… The final understanding is understanding that there is no one to understand..

  108. Neo Vivek says:

    Dilruba: “This not a point of view … it the Truth !”

    If we have agreed on that… something still is missing.
    What happens to the whole vision of new man, a stronger buddha field envisaged by Osho. To have a strong buddha filed, we need many people who are willing to stay in pune for a longer duration. With that kind of money being spent everyday just to be there.. it becomes really hard.
    Not everyone will be willing to put at stake all their money with no active guiding light…. BUT Osho still chose to give that vision… he saw everyone as a bhagwan/buddha on their own… yet to realize their own truth. He said, that would be the USP of Pune, many Bhagwan/ buddhas living together.
    Sadly.. i can find few amazing people in Pune, but none actively involved in creating a stronger buddha field.

    Its like .. “the system is running, let it run” … “the body is breathing, let it breathe… who has the energy to go deeper”

  109. Neo Vivek says:

    Kranti, thanks for introducing that link to me. I am checking it out.

  110. Kranti says:

    ” To have a strong buddha filed, we need many people who are willing to stay in pune for a longer duration”

    Mm.. Neo Vivek.. This really hit me.. Yo have very good point..never thought from this angle..Let me absorb this..

  111. garimo says:

    >>”Garimo, you were talking about requesting certain things. As far as justice and freedom are concerned, I think the only way is to take them, forcibly if necessary.”

    Yep, That sounds like the standard stratigy we’ve been taught. You take by violence, spend lots of energy protecting your loot… Someone takes it again from you… you plot and plan to take again…

    Consider that just in the asking without the expectation of receiving, the energy behind the need is transformed, reguardless of getting what you requested or not. Just feeling heard is often enough to transform. Just the connection between expressing the need and being heard, may be all that is needed.

  112. Kranti says:

    Neo Vivek / Dilruba

    If interested check out this link also

    http://avastu0.blogspot.com/

    I am currently listening to audio listed ou on the right side of the website

    The title of the audio is is ‘ You Are A Thought-Story ”

    Its beautiful..

  113. Dilruba says:

    Chareveti … Chareveti …

  114. garimo says:

    “Yes mind has to be dropped…”

    For 30 years I’ve heard people repeating this.
    It’s been used as a weapon.
    It’s been a tool for minupulation.
    It’s been suggested as advice.

    No one has yet shown me an example of what it means.

    What is mind?
    Where does one drop it off?

  115. Kranti says:

    Garimo…

    I am not posting this because you dont know..since you posted the question i am posting these thoughts..forgive me if i sound too basic…

    Where is mind.. apart from the pasing thoughts , emotions and concepts..

    I had some mis understanding until i listened to Adya..He put it in right order

    Awareness – Thoughts – Conceptualised ME ..

    He says what is dropped / Seen is only the conceptualized ME not the thoughts which come and go.. Some thoughts are converted into actions and some are not..But the conceptualized ME which takes control of thoughts afterwards is the illusion which needs to be dropped rather SEEN

    I really liked that endofseeking.net also website in this respect

  116. Kranti says:

    Hope i am not overdoing it.. One more very beautiful teacher / website

    http://www.rupertspira.com/

    Thank you for the sharing.. Let me ( ??? ) catch up with some sleep

    With Love…Kranti..

  117. Neo Vivek says:

    garimo… that was commented in response to dilruba saying “between Master – Disciple there are exists no calculations ”

    My interpretation is that when the masters say, mind has to be dropped… they mean that do not listen to anything that your mind says… follow your dedicated task/ pursuit with totality. One needs to go beyond the mind to see and feel things in totality.

    Say, like Michelangelo painting the sistine chapel! ya.. that could be a good example of dropping of mind to go beyond.

    This is used by the pune management as well ( just do what has been assigned to you. its not your concern what others are doing or in which direction the train is moving … now the fact that when the train moves, you also move along with it should be immaterial (what the heck!, right) )
    That is also the style of functioning of military.

    So you will see lots of practical dropping of mind… if you interact with people in military community… you might say.. they also think.. but if you just listen to their action… you might realize, most of they time, they do not think at all.

    Now, i had done something like that when i was in love. I did not get any enlightenment or anything. Infact after the whole thing was over, i felt completely spent, exhausted with zero life energy.
    BUT that also lead to lot of personal growth and maturity and understanding of self in me.
    So ya, you get exploited, manipulated go through lot of pain (and in the process do lot of good to others, cause you are total in what you are doing)… and if this exploitation and manipulation does not kill you .. you manage to come out… it makes you stronger than ever.. fearless than ever before..Only if you manage to come our… else you die in depression.

  118. garimo says:

    Kranti and Neo Vivek,
    Thanks for tolerating my questions.
    But do your replies rely a lot on believing something about something that is mysterious and without form? Doesn’t believing and wishing require the mind?
    And what about repression, it seems much different than dropping.

    In the 80′s Osho suggested if sex could be dropped without repression it would be best to do so for the well being of the commune. Seems the consequences of repression needs to be considered.

    Yes Kranti, I also enjoy satsang with Adyashanti when he comes to town. I don’t always go but sometimes when I remember and timing is good I go.

    -g

  119. Neo Vivek says:

    Kranti, i heard that audio.. looked like someone who who has read lot of http://www.gnostic.org/kybalionhtm/kybalion.htm
    and or lot of zen.

    When he said body does not exist. i knew he missed the point…. in Osho’s language, he sounded like a school teacher.
    Ofcouse the body exist … attachment to body might be a illusion.

    - Love
    Neo Vivek

  120. Shahriar says:

    `Now all or most of the blacks are drugdealers`

    `At least Hitler was straightforward about what he was doing`

    What next guys?

    `Joe Goebbels made some excellent videos`??

    And dont forget how generously the British built the Indian Railways..

    Grouchy mark,

    I laughed my butt off reading your post. Thank you.

  121. shantam Prem says:

    Hari Om,
    I am still curious to know who is the man behind the rebellious thoughts.
    Entry will be banned, you should feel gratitude for the people who will ban the entry in the resort, many others organisations could have put price on the head.
    Ask the people who run abortion clinics in America!

    Even when there was no Osho, people were still feeling thirsty, only a child can say that thirst came because of Coca Cola!

    Much of Osho’s carrier is built in hammering apart the foundation of others ,before someone else does this with Osho, it is better we, His people look honestly at out own inner and outer structures,
    Individually people were always getting IT and still they do. It is my sincere feeling that many of us, His people are doing tremendously beautiful in our inner life. in Average, compared to other groups of people, we work less and lazily and earn more because His words are too explosive

    The way i have seen and felt from my own (mis)understanding, Osho was sure about His vision of Buddhafield, it means, He poured His energy to create a Rose Garden and this we have to see and feel whether it is still a Rose garden or it has become a flowerist’s shop.

  122. Dilruba says:

    Kranti … gratitude for your sharing … but no thanx l dont need any links .. lam enjoying my own creativity at the moment .. and sharing what l already have … not in any collecting mood !

  123. shantam Prem says:

    Neo Vivek-
    “Now, i had done something like that when i was in love. I did not get any enlightenment or anything. In fact after the whole thing was over, i felt completely spent, exhausted with zero life energy.
    BUT that also lead to lot of personal growth and maturity and understanding of self in me”

    I can not figure out from your name and writings, whether Neo Vivek is a woman in love or Man with feminine heart.!

    In case Neo Vivek is a woman, i can assure her, a normal disciple like me will prove better than Neo Osho Rajneesh (ies)!

  124. Kartar says:

    Garimo said “Yes mind has to be dropped…”

    For 30 years I’ve heard people repeating this.
    It’s been used as a weapon.
    It’s been a tool for minupulation.
    It’s been suggested as advice.

    No one has yet shown me an example of what it means.

    What is mind?
    Where does one drop it off?

    Garimo: Your mind is a dream faculty living in the imaginary and it functions in either the past or the future.

    In the present there is no mind. When you are herenow you have slipped out of the mind. Thinking takes you away from the herenow. In the herenow there is no possibility for thinking to arise.

    Your mind cannot know the truth. Truth is felt by the heart, not by your head. Truth is felt as a experience. The mind is good for memory and it keeps good records etc, but it is not the way to see into reality. It has no eyes.

    Once you start dropping thoughts you have consciousness without thinking and that is what awareness is. Being alert and with no thought. Try it!! look at the trees, birds, the sun rising, but don’t think about it, simply be. You will get an experience of awareness.

    You have to drop the mind to see that everything is more real, more alive. Mind and mind’s hold on you is the imprisonment.

    Garimo life tends to exist in duality and of course beyond this world there is non duality. Think of your self as a triangle. The bottom part as the sun and moon, the top part of the triangle beyond the world. Two angles belong to this world and one to the beyond. The sun and moon at the bottom need to be in balance to reach the beyond. This balancing is called centering. Awareness works to balance this duality. And when this duality is balanced, you disappear from the world.

    That is why Osho places so much emphasis on meditation so others dont have to ask questions like what is mind? or where does one drop it off? They get to experience it for themselves through meditation. Once you get it, you drop meditation as well.

  125. Shahriar says:

    Wrapping dumplings in
    bamboo leaves, with one finger
    she tidies her hair

    Isn’t that beautiful? So alive, so present, this very moment you are open to the mystery of life. So incomprehensible, no answers are possible, and yet it is so joyous, so lovely, so beautiful. No explanations, no theology, just a heart to heart contact with this existence, with this life that is within us and around us.

    Winter showers,
    even the monkey searches
    for a raincoat

    Tears for that poor monkey, searching for a raincoat in the rain…

    All the fields hands
    enjoy a noontime nap after
    the harvest moon

    Just imagine, working all day in the village, and then simply relaxing with your friends and beloveds. Not doing anything, just enjoying this existence and this very moment. Dropping all effort, not moving away from existence. Present, receptive, vulnerable. And suddenly, you have entered into the heart of existence and the heart of existence has entered you.

    These haikus, after reading them, suddenly there is only silence. Suddenly there is no movement into the future, suddenly you are here and now. And then…and then…I can’t say. These are enough words. So now…

    Only the silence…and the birds singing…and the flowers blooming…and the cherry tree blossoms…and there are no more words…

  126. Neo Vivek says:

    Shahriar
    The above post is beautiful.

  127. Kranti says:

    Neo Vivek

    My understanding is there is no similaity between No-Mind and what a Military is doing.. The Key difference is in awareness of reality..

    Kartar has explained beautifuly about living in the present moment and in the present moment there is no mind

    Just to add that In the present moment YOU dont live… Life lives & expresses itself through this body..

    In effect the ME = Past+Future.. So when you drop the Conceptual ME , life bubbles up in the prsent moment

    Like Kartar said beautifully this is the reason Osho insisted on doing meditations and making the jump without getting cauht in the questions of the mind..

    But i also like Ramana Maharishi’s view that you take out that ME concept using another concept.. like removing a thorn from your leg using another thorn

    As fars that audio is concerned.. I just came across recently and gave the link.. Yes when he said something about body not being there i couldnt get it..

    But Rupert Sapira site is eve more beautiful

  128. Kranti says:

    Just to add Neo Vivek ….

    my understanding is there is no such thing as Human Love as we call it.. Those are just moments of letting go / surrender..When you put aside your mind and relax in to present moment.. Basically our liking towards another individual makes us attach bigger importance to them compared to our mind and we are able to let go of our thinking for few moments

    This is what we interpret as LOVE..which is nothing ut one quality of openess which comes with dropping mind… There is no such things as Human Love..It seems to be shocking considering all the struggles people have to attain that Love..It is reality

    when there is no ME who will love and whom can be loved?

    I remember reading Osho explaining this by saying you cxan experience love even when you surrender to a dog..It need not be another human being..

  129. Kranti says:

    Garimo

    ” But do your replies rely a lot on believing something about something that is mysterious and without form? Doesn’t believing and wishing require the mind?”

    May be to start with we all have belief.. But it seems it is a very simple aspect of being aware of the fact you can not be your thoughts / emotions which come and go.. Once certain amount of dis identification happens it seems to be easier to sit there and watch life unfolding.. That doesnt mean MIND will not come and get control..It will keep happening until one final dropping..

    There are also two schools of thought Gradual awakening and sudden awakening…seems both are possible..

  130. Kranti says:

    ” Wrapping dumplings in
    bamboo leaves, with one finger
    she tidies her hair ”

    Beautiful Shariar.. I felt like i am looking at a beautiful japanese girl infront of me..

    You must be aware.. They say we need to read these haikus in a certain way .. You need read the first two lines two times and then move to 3rd line..I heard the orginal ( ? ) haikus always had a surprise in the 3rd line..

    But Osho gave a different understanding about the simpilicity and innocense of these haikus ..as an expresson of what is there infront of our view without adding mind to it..

  131. Kranti says:

    My Haiku

    Sunday Afternoon.. stretching myself..
    It is about to rain
    Osho speaking.. Ah this.

  132. harri om says:

    The Sacred Stone

    Osho was contradictory on many if not most issues. On the preciousness of marble however he was not. Marble is used in sacred buildings because it can hold the energy of the master. Osho had the marble in his bedroom lifted and given to his people for this very reason. This offering was received and treasured.

    If Jayesh is enlightened and therefore gave everyone a spiritual lesson by having the Buddha Hall pagoda scattered in pieces across the ground, then he is an enlightened master that works in different ways to Osho. However, Osho had no spiritual successor.

    Some of Osho’s disciples have claimed to be enlightened and have gathered friends around them in many parts of the world. If they are enlightened this is beautiful. However none of these people had the right to claim to be Osho’s sole spiritual heir – and indeed they have not done so.

    If Jayesh wants to play master then let him build a spiritual empire around him. However by playing master under the guise of chairperson of the inner-circle he is deceiving sannyassins and betraying what Osho clearly stated about the functioning of the inner-circle: it was to be a managerial/administrative body.

    It is often repeated that such things as worshipping a pagoda is the very antithesis of Osho’s vision of a forward looking spiritualism. Who is to say what are the subtleties of the vision of a great master. (This is for example why his words should not be in anyway altered – not a word more nor less). However I ask each and every authentic sannyassin to ask yourself whether or not you think Osho would have had the pagoda smashed into pieces in the middle of the night?

    Osho was a buddha with the presence, the energy field, of a great master. His presence, along with his disciples and the qualities of the communal land, built a buddha-field. As Osho has said (and not I believe contradicted himself that) marble and certain structures help contain and confine this sacred energy. The energy is not a projection or a meaningless new-age term. It is this subtle vibrating field that provides a supporting environment that allows and helps us to meditate.

    The pagoda was not about empty worship, like a tourist going to fake temple. The pagoda was about going into an energy field and receiving subtle support to lift us in our time of need. It really did not matter whether Osho spoke or not when he sat on the podium with us. What mattered was that we were bathed in his energy. When his energy dispersed, the purest form of that energy was contained in his ashes, his bedroom, his Samadhi, and his pagoda. It is in the marble; it is in the creaking bamboos; and it is in his people.

    Seekers come to the pagoda, not to throw their energy out through their eyes as a tourist would, but as people going inwards into meditation. They both receive support from this energy field and leave a subtle taste of their own elevated presence. In this way a sacred place or temple (or whatever) is not a mind projection nor an excuse for hypocritical worship; it is an existential reality that is able to be experienced. It is tangible, it can be nourished, and it can also be destroyed.

    I mentioned before about a sacred temple in Tibet that emanated a powerful vibe, and can currently be visited by Westerners. Do you think that the ancient Tibetan masters new anything about meditation and enlightenment? I offer here a hypothetical story.

    What about if when the Chinese invaded Tibet they destroyed that temple. The Tibetans then complained and the Chinese Communist Party’s politburo had already known that it would create an uproar so they had in parallel built a nice new temple down the road (with a nice new Chinese flag out the front). “It is in the vision plan passed down by the ancients, and it is for you”, they said to the Tibetan people.

    If I were to go and visit the site where the sacred temple once stood, do you think I would be able to experience the energy field that was the essence of the sacred site? Do you think I would receive meditative support by sitting on the pile of rubble? Perhaps I should walk down the road to the new sacred temple. Do you think there would be anything special there? Certainly it would make for a nice photo shoot!

    It might be argued that the marauding Chinese had no sensitivity for the subtle. I would agree that the foot soldiers did not. However the Politburo new that there was something about the Dalai Lahma, as with the many the sacred sites: there was a threatening reality that although subtle, had immense power. This power could spread (and indeed was spreading) into greater China and was therefore an existential threat.

    In the same way the current Osho inner-circle and the management of the Pune resort are ridding the place (and the planet) of this subtle yet powerful existential threat. They ban the sannyassins that have the rebellious spirit which is uniquely part of the flavour of Osho’s spiritualism. They control, threaten, and condemn the centres and people around the world that flower too much. They condemn the so-called worshippers who come and meditate and keep Osho’s Pune buddha-field alive. And they smash down the structures that contain and confine not just the energy of the land, not just the energy in Osho’s sannyassins, but the actual energy of Osho.

    People often say that wished they could have sat in the presence of Osho…to feel what it was like to have your own being uplifted by him…and who knows, maybe to be propelled into the eternal…just for a moment. I say to these people that the actual presence of the master lives on for a time, slowly ebbing away like a vast receding tide. The master’s disciples protect it for as long as possible for it is this sacredness that they were drawn to themselves. It was this presence that was their first taste of the divine in a seemingly turbulent and listless world. It was this presence that drew them from darkness and provided their guiding light.

    Yes smash down this and that. Kick out some person and then another. Squash all the autonomous and independent centres that pop up here and there. What does it matter? Everything is to be just witnessed as passing clouds in the empty sky of our eternal being. I say to this that though we all live in our minds, in our own mental projections, there are other people and other beings that do the same. Though there is beauty and good there is also ugliness and evil; though there is truth there is also the ignorant that mask its radiance; though there is suffering there is also the cruel and ignorant that foster it, and the wise that take it away.

    The energy of a master is so light that it is only awareness. It contains a shower of compassion and love that drenches and cleanses our beings; it provides a mirror-like grace that accelerates our own awareness; and it shows us not just the fogginess from whence we have come, but the clarity to which we shall always belong…an endless sea of diamonds shimmering here now forever.

    An inner-circle should be to support and nourish not to control and destroy. Granted there will be much fear in the Osho sannyassin community that voting in some other sannyassins may just create more problems…perhaps even worse problems. This fear is there in large part because of the tyranny that is currently being forced upon them. The inner-circle should be there to support any individual or any group in the way that they wish to be supported. Obviously there is a line drawn somewhere in the sands that says this or that is not acceptable. Currently the line is drawn in the unworkable land of domination and control. Even worse, the current inner-circle (as with Pune resort management) jump over their own standards at will.

    The key difference between democracy and dictatorship is that when it becomes so clear that something is drastically wrong, you can vote the tyrants out of power. Imagine the people of Cambodia in the time of the Khmer Rouge (or any other tyrannical regime for that matter). Do you think that when the majority of the Cambodian population is either being starved to death or being tortured to death they would vote to keep the Khmer Rouge in power? Democracy does offer unknowns, especially if everyone votes for a bunch of nutcases. However in time people would work out that it is not very pleasant having nutcases in charge, and so they will change their vote next time.

    So how about let’s see who has the popular support of the Osho sannyassin community? Let’s see what sannyassins think of the pagoda being demolished. Who knows, maybe a new inner-circle will bring a wrecking-ball to the Samadhi. On this question, I personally will be sure to ask or here from candidates before I vote for them.

    There are many Osho sannyassins who are fanned out across this globe planting flowers and sharing treasures. If these people are not to you a shepherd tending to their flock, but rather a source of inspiration and joy and freedom, then they are possible candidates for the inner-circle. Would you like to select people such as these to be in the Osho inner-circle?

    If an inner-circle position overwhelms someone and they go astray, then they have their own inner journey to refocus on. If, like Sheela, they do not realize this, I only hope that you do.

    http://oshodemocracy.blogspot.com

  133. Anand says:

    very well formulated Harri Om. ..

  134. Kranti says:

    ” Osho had the marble in his bedroom lifted and given to his people for this very reason.”

    I cant even believe Osho doing this..How do we know Osho actually said that… Through whom it was communicated.. Osho himself?

    ” It is often repeated that such things as worshipping a pagoda is the very antithesis of Osho’s vision of a forward looking spiritualism. Who is to say what are the subtleties of the vision of a great master ‘

    Yes.. No one can say.. then why are we saying all these things about energy & marbles ? We should not..

    At the most we can say ‘ personally i would like to see this change ‘..Thats it..

    If everyone can have strong opinion about what Osho wanted then why not people who were very close to him..Surely they had better access to Osho..

    These kind of arguements will not do us any good..for every arguement there can be a counter arguement..

    this is the reason why no one could comes face to face for communication.. The moment we start quoting specific Osho related aspects..

    We can only look at the core teaching of the master and go by it..not individual instances / quotes where Osho would have done 100 things according to context.. It is just not possible to adhere to them now..

  135. Neo Vivek says:

    Kranti says “Basically our liking towards another individual makes us attach bigger importance to them compared to our mind and we are able to let go of our thinking for few moments”

    I knew this but this dimension was not in my awareness. So glad you pointed this out.

  136. Neo Vivek says:

    Harri Om

    Few points:

    1. Even if you manage to vote for a new inner circle… they just cannot go to pune and say … Hey old guys, vacate your chairs, we are the new inner circle. I believe, if at all, the efforts should be directed to build the consensus among the sannyasin community about the need for change. Direct confrontation just closes mind, hearts and the doors.

    2. Is it humanly possible that the inner circle (any, the current or any other) will be just about administration when there is so much power involved ( money, influence etc )

    3. Only a buddha would be able watch with a distance all the money and power involved. But a buddha would never want to waste his energy in administration/ day to day affairs

  137. Neo Vivek says:

    Osho had said
    People can sit in front of his sammadhi and meditate.
    If we are on the policy of No attachment/ worshiping… destroy the Samaddhi too? why double standards.
    After all, people can meditate anywhere in the whole commune.

    There was no reason to demolish the buddha structure. People could have mediated there too… feeling more connected with the master. Only through perception can we go beyond the perception.

  138. Kartar says:

    Hari Om this is a fantasy right? Elections 2099? Nice way to see who votes for whom or to see how far this can go. Good luck.

    Why Oshana on the list, he’s not even a sannyasin, or for that matter Tyohar as far as I know has never been in Osho’s presence. Veeresh? prices would skyrocket. Maitreya? What the fukc! he’s a lunatic. Pan just wants the chicks, who made that list.

    Oh I get it, must be a joke from you Parmartha? Personally I’m not convinced of any authenticity.

    Enuff said.

  139. shantam Prem says:

    Who so ever you are Hari Om, Indian sannaysin or an American one, you have written a beautiful piece, the fragrance of Osho Logic.
    As i have written in many of the posts here, Give people a day in the ashram without Jayesh and Buddha Hall will be Buddha Hall again. So it is just a question of time, we can be curious to see whether democracy reaches North Korea first or the Inner circle is restored in the ashram first.
    It is not that it is my wishful thinking about the place, it is about the human nature as simple as laws of gravitation. One just cannot dictate the world indefinitely by sitting in the gas balloon.
    As far as my individual journey is concerned, if i don’t find Buddha Hall even in Circus tent, i will feel ashamed as a disciple and doubtful about the master.
    When you cross the bridge, break it. But in a way, others can walk even better over it.

  140. shantam Prem says:

    Neo Vivek and Kranti,
    Can yo imagine how difficult life becomes when you have lost the keys of an Volvo bus, and you have to push it for the next destination.
    To manage such a thing, is simply an arduous job.
    But if you follow the instruction manual provided by the manufacturer and also you check your pockets too, than it won’t be that difficult.
    Same one can say about any mode of transportation, Including ashram, the inner transport company.
    The drivers are not only drunkards, they are playing with the wiring too.
    passengers are always busy in sleeping or smooching.

  141. Neo Vivek says:

    i would like to modify the last sentence of your post.
    passengers are always ” kept ” busy in sleeping or smooching.

  142. Neo Vivek says:

    at least the majority of the passengers …

    anyhow, i am going to read some osho …. i experience a different kind of silence when i do that.

  143. Kranti says:

    Dear all

    Dont get me wrong when i say things are mostly alright..I do certainly feel the need for bringing balance..If Buddha hall restoration will bring such marble then it is welcome..

    But will it stop there? Wont people start asking for all sorts of things to be restored..

    Secondly Pune has done a very good job in the area of marketing Osho books / discourses..Considering that …I am posing a question to everyone who wants certain things to be restored… Restoring control over publishing , Trademarks and Copyrights to Pune Mgt is one of the things ..Isnt it? When we want to go back to old period cant all the people including people who are against trademark accept the earlier model of functioning in all aspects?

    Let us have a discussion on what we want to see again and what we dont want to see..may be we all will have better understanding of each other..atleast..we can come to same page..

  144. shantam Prem says:

    Thanks a Lot Vivek for modifying the sentence.
    My God, this is the joy to have fellow travelers, one can always get the support in modifying and refining each others work.
    I hope One day Jayesh, the driver, invites us all at Zorba for a thanks giving dinner.

  145. Kranti says:

    Correction ” If Buddha hall restoration will bring such balance then it is welcome.. “

  146. Neo Vivek says:

    “If Buddha hall restoration will bring such balance then it is welcome.. “

    Repeating things was never the way of osho. Restoration is not going to do much apart from healing some wounds in the hearts and minds of Long time sannyasins

    Yes, the buddha hall structure was demolished on flimsy grounds. That should never have happened on the first place. Some believe that is a strategic move to wipe out any attachment and thereby any future resistance when the property is sold…. and since the consensus was never made before doing so, people have genuine reasons to doubt.
    For one, osho never said, demolish the buddha hall when auditorium work is completed, its purpose is over.

    Anyhow, i believe
    1. A change in style of working of inner circle is needed.
    2. The guiding light or compass for the changed style of working has to be the dedicated mission to create the strongest buddha field possible, whatever it takes.
    3. Change has to be forward looking.

    Also, behavior of people never change. I feel, saying that the approach of people coming to pune has changed is just a disguise.
    You create situations and conditions and people behave accordingly. It always has been like that throughout the history of humanity.
    We still can have a strong buddha field.

  147. Neo Vivek says:

    Shantam Prem “I hope One day Jayesh, the driver, invites us all at Zorba for a thanks giving dinner.”
    This is something. This is deep.

  148. Kranti says:

    ” I feel, saying that the approach of people coming to pune has changed is just a disguise.”

    What i mean in my earlier post is people may look at pune in a different light now compared to the days of Osho..Long duration stay may not been happening or not in demand.. So i felt it is a change happened to people..

  149. Kranti says:

    “‘ We still can have a strong buddha field.”

    Very True..

    What more we want than having a strong buddha field..

  150. Neo Vivek says:

    What more we want than having a strong buddha field..
    I am tempted to say, A buddha ;)

  151. Neo Vivek says:

    or well, 10000 buddhas

  152. Kranti says:

    ” I am tempted to say, A buddha ”

    Wow!!!

    Wish i can give you a hug..

  153. Dilruba says:

    Yes Osho is the Master … who reminded us of our Buddhahood … and is eternally available to us …

  154. Neo Vivek says:

    {{ Hugs }} to you Kranti

  155. Neo Vivek says:

    Dilruba says “… and is eternally available to us …”

    “I will be known through my sannyasins – Osho”

    How many are left? What does it mean to be a osho sannyasin?
    To live and celebrate life totally with meditative awareness as a central quality?
    or does that include those who are on their journey to achieve such a state of life?
    And what does it exactly mean to be on the journey?

    By all definitions, most of the time, i am not. Its not so easy, at least for me.

  156. Neo Vivek says:

    “on the journey” … means trying.
    Can there be any trying, either you are in that state, or you are not.

  157. Dilruba says:

    Neo Vivek … the journey is never ending … what state are you talking about ?

    when l said ” Osho is eternally available to us ” … Adhyashanti / Mooji etc .. these guys are candles … Osho is the Sun … l have not seen Osho in his physical body … nor have l seen these guys … yet l know this … there is no comparision …no arrogance in what l say …

  158. shantam Prem says:

    “Some believe that is a strategic move to wipe out any attachment and thereby any future resistance when the property is sold…. ”

    Some always believe something. German Bakery is the rumour mill of the ashram, hardly any breaking news from their turns reality.

    Other than the Control attitude, rigid interpretations of Osho plus the colored glass view of the world around, everything else is perfectly fine with Jayesh and co. and i am 100% sure, that even the idea to sell the property has never come in their mind.
    About the practical survival and the property management, Our big brother is no less capable than Donald Trump.
    And Dr. Amrito, his contribution is great in the sense that not a single person in the history of Poona 2 has fallen sick while eating Ashram food.
    The quality of the drinking water from public tapes is miles ahead than the bottled water from MNC’s.

    I have no other example so i use it again and again, Bonsai will remain healthy in their hands, to see it growing like a Banyan tree, they need the other hands and hearts who think differently.
    This much psychology lesson our Friend Anthony Thompson, must deliver that the differences may create opposition but it is not enmity.
    Four elements with unique qualities,create an environment on the earth for the Fifth, the mysterious to land. This environmental imbalance shrinks the growth,Mangos don’t taste like Mangoes, inner memebrs their, look like ALDI Managers.

  159. Shahriar says:

    Well I am uncertain whether mooji or adyashanti are founding a tradition like zen or sufism or hassidism. Osho has founded something, he has discovered the key himself. So while Mooji, Adya and Osho are all enlightened it seems that Osho was a giant as far as being a master is concerned.

  160. Shahriar says:

    Other than the Control attitude, rigid interpretations of Osho plus the colored glass view of the world around, everything else is perfectly fine with Jayesh and co. and i am 100% sure, that even the idea to sell the property has never come in their mind.

    This seems a bit too much. Don’t say 100% percent sure because you never know what they would do.

  161. Shahriar says:

    Business men are after all business men, so as long as they are making profits they will probablly keep the property, afterwards I am uncertain.

    I think dictatorship is wrong, but democracy is even worse. In democracy any fool can voice his opinion, and anyone who is a good actor and orator can deceive the people.

  162. garimo says:

    >>>when l said ” Osho is eternally available to us ” … Adhyashanti / Mooji etc .. these guys are candles … Osho is the Sun …

    Some embodied and some holy ghosts.
    We have so many alternative ways to forget finding ones self.

  163. shantam Prem says:

    To say 100% is just like stressing the point,
    like writ ting in bold and with conviction.
    The rumour of selling or closing the property is in the circulation from the day one.
    and moreover, why one should blame them for that which they have never done.

    “Business men are after all business men, so as long as they are making profits they will probably keep the property, afterwards I am uncertain.”

    Shahriar, you the filter mechanism for the information pouring in.
    If you close the eyes, can you see a single image of these people other than the names, just names?

    for information, Mr. Jayesh is the single biggest contributor at the moment most probably the only contributor, as far as money is concerned.
    For sure this gives a controlling attitude and towering personality amongst the Pigmy’s.
    I really really wish that he gets few friends around him, who can stand equally tall.
    Ma Neelam is one such personality, but it seems he is allergic to the equally strong people. The only drawback, but costly one.

  164. shantam Prem says:

    “I think dictatorship is wrong, but democracy is even worse. In democracy any fool can voice his opinion, and anyone who is a good actor and orator can deceive the people.”

    What are another alternatives?
    Not wrong, not worse…if not the best, simply good workable solution.

    If a good actor and orator can deceive the people, is it not intelligent on the part of the founding fathers of a country, that such person cannot stay more than four plus four years in the public arena.

  165. Merlina says:

    A few of my own thoughts and insights…..the very fact that this situation with the inner circle throws up so many questions seems in itself a reflection of Osho’s emphasis on provoking us to find our own truth, rather than giving us ready made answers, including about how his legacy and his work will continue to expand and unfold.

    Jayesh and Amrito just might be following Osho’s instructions or be acting in tune with his vision if the intention is to deliberately stir up the sannyas world. If that’s the case it’s definitely worked! The present situation certainly feels like a bit of a wake up call for all of us who love and are connected with Osho to become aware of and express our understanding of his vision and legacy.

    There’s another possibility re the activities of the inner circle – it could all be a connected with Sheela’s legacy. Both Jayesh and Amrito were victims of Sheela and had a direct experience of her particular brand of religious fascism. I can understand why they would be anxious to ensure that nothing like Sheela’s Church of Rajneeshism can arise again in Osho’s name. They seem to be trying to get rid of anything that could form the basis of any kind of religion being created, and their experience with Sheela may have left them with a deep distrust of Indian devotees and of female Indian secretaries.

    However, in doing so they’ve fallen into the trap of becoming reactionaries and going to the other extreme – in trying to avoid a religion arising they have created their own type of fascist anti-religion in the process.. Its the nature of the dualistic mind to always go to the other extreme.

    Their white male British upper/middle class conditioning may also be a factor. I remember overhearing Amrito speaking to a very British looking gentleman who’d showed up at an Osho book launch that they hosted at one point in London. Amrito was talking about India and pointing out to the guest that it isn’t just about what we in the west can teach them, but recognising that the east might have something to teach us.

    He might do well right now to follow his own advice! I’m thinking particularly of this ‘Rajneesh’ guy who also looks like Osho, whose book ‘Tears of the Mystic Rose’ has been banned by the inner circle.

    The fact it’s banned made me immediately want to read it. I’ve downloaded it and have dipped in and read parts of it. It’s given me some profound insights into how the path of devotion can lead to direct experiences, and the effect on me was to feel humbled – I’ve had many experiences and felt connected with Osho, but reading the book left me feeling I’ve barely scratched the surface, so far, and have only just begun. His book feels like an invitation to let go of all I’ve experienced and understood and go deeper.

    I feel if the inner circle also took the time to read this book they might recognise Rajneesh also has something of value to contribute. It’s wrong to assume all Indian devotees are like Sheela and out to take control and create a ‘religion’.

    I also think Rajneesh makes a valid point in his interviews that we’re currently lacking the ‘sangha’ – the community of sannyasins, to support our growth. Being challenged to look beyond our own conditionings is a part of that, and it’s the differences between us and diversity of people connected with Osho that helps to keep the movement alive and prevent a dead fixed religion from being established.

    Rajneesh would get my vote to become a part of the inner circle and I think it would be great if Amrito and Jayesh were able to work with him in a kind of ‘east meets west’ scenario.

    Maybe that’s an impossible vision…or is it? What if all parties are able and willing to look beyond their own experiences and understandings and recognise there’s a bigger picture and all of us only see a small part, not the whole……

  166. Shahriar says:

    You’re right shantam, I shouldn’t have accused them in that way.

    Democracy is better than dictatorship but I still think that the structure of government can be evolved and refined to a higher point than it is now. Democracy is not perfect, and because it is not perfect, there is room for growth. Democracy is not the full point is what I’m saying.

    The founding fathers have been intelligent but this does not mean that someone cannot come after them and find a method that is even more effective.

  167. shantam Prem says:

    In my memory, humanity was very close to develop a better proto type of a more effective and humane system in the wings of osho’s awakened being, but somehow the highly ambitious experiment bombed in the mid air collisons of egos and clashes of civilisations.

    It does not reduce the worth of Osho and His people’s contribution and earth is still throabing with warmth and with the longing of refinement, not just in products but in beings too.

  168. shantam Prem says:

    Merlina,
    The book is not banned as the ashram authorities are not that powerful like Vatican to ban some book, yet the author of the book is banned.
    Again the banning game is being done quite arbitrary, and many times it backfires, it turns frogs into princes , and doubts in people’s mind about the sanity of the judicial system there.
    Many people are trying to raise their voices from different platforms, how so ever small they may be, and it seems the winds of change will enter the gate less gate.
    People like Rajneesh or Arun should not be banned from the ashram unless they try to sell their product at 17, Koregaon park or they come to the ashram not as an individual seekers but with their own bunch of followers.
    Even in the later situation, banning is never a right way. if someone wants to enter night club with his Burka clad wives, let it be.
    “This ‘Rajneesh’ guy who also looks like Osho..”, sorry Merlina, if you really want to see a guy who looks like Osho than log on to the website,
    www. Oshodhara.com
    there you will see a guy who shares the DNA with Osho.
    This guy will not be allowed in the ashram territory though he does not need also.

  169. Shahriar says:

    “if someone wants to enter night club with his Burka clad wives, let it be.”

    LOL.

  170. Neo Vivek says:

    Shahriar,
    Make some room for costume parties! … and make particular stress on the word “wives” .. that itself should give him the entry pass!

  171. harri om says:

    When Osho was a living breathing buddha sleeping in his bedroom he got the bedroom stripped of all its marble. He gave it to his beloved sannyassins.

    Like the issue of Osho’s bedroom marble you are again deceived. Have a closer look! I am not quoting Osho, nor am I using anything that he has or has not supposedly said to back up my position. I am asking you to investigate what your intelligence says about Osho. As I stated clearly each person will have a point of view more or less in line with Osho….who knows?? I am not stating my point of view about Osho, I am asking what yours is.

    Again you are deceived with my name. Every time I write Harri you write Hari. I would not be surprised if agian you do not see the difference. For your benefit the first name is two r’s. The second name as just one.

    What about this online poll…absurd that I may change anything with this poll. It is clearly stated in the title that this poll is a TRIAL.

    You don’t like this person or that person in the poll list. I simply wrote out 21 names that first came into my mind. The poll, as with the names, simply helps to give context to the concept of an elected inner-circle. It gives some names that will make people think…many are former inner-circle members…some have little if any association with Osho…others (quite a lot of them) are banned.

    Osho gave interesting lectures on the concept of moving from monarchy or dictatorship, to democracy, and then to meritocracy. It is my opinion that a refined democracy is a meritocracy.

    Of course the inner-circle will not give way to a democratic process. It would be absurd to think they would simply give away their power. If enough people participate in the various on-line polls, this gives weight to the submission of the proposal of democratic reform to various governmental institutions. If I was the Indian government I sure would not want a Sheela fiasco on my doorstep.

    For important posts in most constitutional democracies (the president for example) the stipulation of only a limited number of terms or years in office is not there by coincidence. Nor is it coincidental that many presidents try and change this: Hugo Chavez (Venezuela) and Micceletti (Honduras) to name two recent ones, and the mayor of New York (Bloomberg) to name another.

    It is not whether or not the pagoda was demolished. It is not whether or not it will be reconstructed. It is not whether or not we sit like a buddha. It is why?

  172. Harri Om says:

    And 2099 as closing date of this TRIAL poll…I will let you try and work out whether or not it was a number that has or has not any significance whatsoever!

  173. Harri Om says:

    Kartar thinks it must be a joke from Parmartha. Firstly it is not a joke. Secondly I am not Parmartha. Thirdly I would have assumed that someone as intelligent as Parmartha would already have been banned.

  174. Kartar says:

    Okay not from Parmartha
    Okay not a joke
    Okay You have the benefit of the doubt.
    BTW I like your style of writng…keep up the good work

  175. Kartar says:

    And 2099 as closing date of this TRIAL poll…I will let you try and work out whether or not it was a number that has or has not any significance whatsoever!

    Following year 2100 a new inner circle.

    21 in the inner circle

  176. Harri Om says:

    Yes we can be deceived by a good orator. We can even be deceived by lack of transparency in governance (a state media for example…China comes to mind). The Germans voted Hitler into power. The Palestinians voted Hamas into power.

    Two of the external keys to help this are freedom of information and a free-functioning media. However the more we come to know our own internal dreams (the more we come to know our own reality), the more we can see reality on the outside. A deep meditator can see a hypocrite at first glance.

    In this way as we grow we become the people that are of merit. We are no longer fooled by slanderous advertising slogans or tempted by offers of money. In this way we develop the capacity to choose people with merit.

    The idea of choosing only voters and candidates who have merit is fraught with difficulty….who decides what? Forcing a vetting process is dictatorial, and hence a regression. However, the more conscious a collective of people become, the less this becomes an issue.

    No doubt a tyrant like Hitler would have had to have done endless dynamic mediations (etc etc) if he came to visit Osho. However in time he would have faced his rage and had his cruelty transformed to compassion. In this way those whose interest in power will be transformed into a capability to help many people. In the same way those that elect office-bearers will feel more integral in themselves and therefore not feel unconsciously compelled to elect a dictator (to reinforce their own limited self-worth).

    The key concept on this road is not equality, nor is it liberty or freedom. The key is equality of opportunity.

    We are not all born to be managers. This was where Chairman Mao fell down when he benevolently tried to force an agrarian society into an industrial one. It was not out of malice. He tried to bring about a modern civilised technological society. However the trouble was he did not allow the process of social order to select good managers for his factories, nor good farmers for his farms. It is the same in North Korea. North Korea was not destroyed by ill-will. It was destroyed by incompetency.

    The concept of hierarchy and structure is a concept that leaves managers at the top and everyone else in diminishing importance on the way down. There are good managers and there are good carpenters, and in some way a good manager may be able to utilise more power than a carpenter. If so, this is only a relationship in power. There are many other ways to relate. One is by having sex, another is by falling in love. More deeply we can share our love.

    Power is both a feeling and a state. Once we see this deeply in ourselves it looses its grip on us and eventually matters not. We may or may not be powerful in different situations, but this becomes insignificant.

    I am not asking a painter to become chair of the inner-circle. I am trying to get people to have a fresh look at the Osho sannyass relations they have. It is not about whether Jayesh is a tyrant and sharleton, or whether some banned sannyassin is a buddha or not. If I say someone is good or bad why do you respond the way you do? How sure are you about your point of view? Does it matter if you are wrong?

    If we do not use our freedom we shall have it taken away by those obsessed with power. If we do not have a way to take that power back, we live oppressed and have no opportunity to grow. Also, those in power may become more obsessive and hence more oppressive.

    The inner process of enlightenment is mirrored by the outer process of creative personal growth. We all need to be equally free to pursue who it is we think we are. We may be wrong sometimes, yet we may be wiser afterwards.

    A healthy dynamic in the relationships of power allows this inner and outer journey. An unhealthy balance can destroy it. You will not progress on the path if your arguments about the people in power are full of delusion. Further if you are wrong and you are unsuspectingly in the grip of a power dynamic that takes away both your outer and inner potential for growth, then you are stuck. Are you stuck or not?

  177. Harri Om says:

    Kartar, I shall leave you to it.
    Love
    Harri

  178. Shahriar says:

    Harri Om,

    You seem to have a few assumptions which I see and I want to make sure you see them too. You assume that anyone is capable of deciding who is the right and who is the wrong person to be in a certain position. Something which you may not be aware of is that politicians are elected on the basis of image, not on the basis of competence. When you put a poll in front of people and ask them to choose, there are many people who will decide based on prejudice and nonessential things. Examples include religion, race, sex, opinions, personal relationship, likes, dislikes etc. The people who are voting are not God, so they cannot be expected to make the right decision. That is what you seem to forget. They are ordinary human beings, with their egos still there.

    Because of this, it is important to understand that democracy would be foolish because then people would forget about right management and simply care about votes. The job of the pune managers is NOT gathering votes. They simply have a functional job to do, and since they have no obligation to any particular group as far as I know, no one is above them. Their job is similar to the dishwasher or the plumber or the cook or the mailman. That is all. Amrito and Jayesh should be considered mailmen, or dishwasheres or plumbers or cooks. Nothing more. You do not elect the mailman or the dishwasher but this does not mean that they can just do anything that they want. There are some responsibilites to which they are accountable. This is if the pune resort was a functional organization. That means if that was its nature. Currently I am unsure about whether that is its nature or not because it seems to be something more than a functional organization.

    Dictatorship would also be foolish because it would be opposed to intelligence and freedom and dissent. Therefore, what is needed is a functional management. Obviously the pune resort is not functional management otherwise we would not have this debate. No one argues about the delivery of the mail because what is important is not who or what or how, but simply is it delivered and is it delivered efficiently and effectively. The same is not the case with the pune resort.

    Democracy is stupid because any fool can impose his or her opinion on the resort. Foolish ideas can be supported, which will be harmful to Osho’s buddhafield. You do not think from the standpoint of that resort being a buddhafield, you just consider it an organization just like any other organization. Therefore you talk of democracy. A buddha field is not and cannot be democratic or dictatorial because democracy is the opinions of the many being imposed, dictatorship is the opinions of the few being imposed. If democracy had had its way Osho would have been crucified. If dictatorship had had its way Osho would have also been crucified. So please understand this before you talk about democracy. The masses have always been opposed to wisdom and the dictators have also always been opposed to wisdom, of course for different reasons. So please, Beware. A DEMOCRACY POISONED SOCRATES AND A DICTATORSHIP MURDERED MANSOOR AL HALLAJ.

  179. Shahriar says:

    Harri Om, you forget when you talk about meditations capacity to transform. Ideally what you say would be good and right BUT, there is no way to judge whether a person is meditative or not. Before Sheela and her fascism, no one would have thought that such a thing could happen. You are currently in the same position, You have no idea of what could go wrong in your suggesion. You think that everything will happen according to your desires. You don’t know that things go wrong or how they go wrong. You have incomplete knowledge. You do not have knowledge of human nature as it is, you do not have full knowledge of Osho’s vision or about what needs to happen as far as Osho’s vision and work is/are concerned, therefore what you are saying is based on blindness, ignorance and incomplete knowledge. I want to ask you something. If a blind man who is ignorant of medicine and who does not have complete knowledge of a certain disease gives suggestions to someone who is ill, do you think it will be taken? The people will simply laugh. This applies in this case also.

  180. Shahriar says:

    I think that Sheela and her fascism have done one right things, they have made sannyasins aware of the reality and have brought them out of idealism and “hope”. They have glimpsed human nature and what it is capable of. They have become mature. They have understood a few things which they may not have understood otherwise. They have understood something about power and what it is willing to do and how it can affect people. Ronald reagan, who by the way was elected through the democratic process, has also been helpful in revealing to sannyasins many things about power and human nature. I think that these experiences have been helpful in our maturity so that our optimism does not remain idealistic but is grounded in reality. To that our love is not blind, but absolutely clear, seeing with open eyes, aware of the reality and of the truth. The communists did not have this sort of maturity and experience. Therefore their hope was blind and Joseph Stalin was the result. The germans were not mature, they forgot that persons out of power are different from persons in power. They forgot that word and appearances can be deceiving. The founding fathers were not totally perceptive, they thought that by writing beautiful words on pieces of paper, democracy could be actualized. They forgot that their ideals do not become materialized simply through writing them down, although I respect their efforts. Their efforts and their intention was right, but they were functioning with a limited capacity. They did not have complete knowledge of human nature, they did not understand what factors led to different behaviours and systems and how to ensure that such a thing as democracy can be maintained etc. etc. etc.

    We can have this maturity. We have the experiences of many persons and groups behind us and they can be helpful in our understanding, if we choose to learn from them and gain from the mistakes that they made so that we can become more aware and more alert.

  181. shantam Prem says:

    Great Harri Om-
    It is my opinion that a refined democracy is a meritocracy.

    Many of us can remember the working experience in the ashram, when everyone used to get equal nos. of food passes, and Osho mentioned many times something like that toilet cleaner is as much needed as the president of the country and the need of the time to create a non hierarchical system, which can provide equal opportunity of growth to the grass or to the trees that we are not equal but unique in our own way, kind of poetic expressions.
    Collectively, the organisation under His name is making the mockery of His work, it is like you go the Chemistry lab, to find the books of history with few old copies of Penthouse!

    But the positive aspect of this is that slowly slowly the voices are being raised, the deafening silence after the shock is making space for the new beginning.
    Who knows one day Mr. Andrea Roth and thousands of others, many of his posts are in the previous threads, comes back again to their sannyas names and buy the ticket again for the ashram.
    I think time of the cultural genocide is over, when some 60 plus spokes woman tells shamelessly about her classmates, ” We don’t need old sannyasins, their energy is dead. we are looking for the young blood who see the vision unfolding with fresh eyes”.
    And yes, resort is full with the young blood. Every day around 150-200 young workers enter the campus. They are paid around four to five dollars per day for the days work, without doubt resort is a well pay master.

  182. shantam Prem says:

    it makes me wonder always, when i listen people blaming JUST SHEELA for every kind of shit around Osho’s work.
    (The German word “Scheisse” will be more approproate, it is shit with thunderstorm).

    For sure this highly ambitious house wife kind of Osho appointee has her hands full but she was just one of the many Taliban groups of her time. She was one of the players in the palace politics.
    When so many babes want to have the date with the “Prince Philip”. What options they have other than painting the others as sick in the back biting games.

    As I got my inner home around Osho’s work. for this reason i felt few years ago to visit Sheela at her old people’s home in Basel area, feeling may be it will help to heal the wounds of the past, a kind of reconciliation trip and also to look at her astrology chart,
    I was unemployed and offered her to work in her institution, and mentioned,” In this way, i want to see how her Bhagwan, meets my Osho.” (she will never use the word Osho. It is Bhagwan.)
    It is understandable, she declined. She cannot afford to drop her healed mask.

  183. Shahriar says:

    Well I personally was not blaming her, I think that Sheela was a good opportunity for people to see what is inside of them also. Perhaps because of Sheela sannyasins will have gained a maturity that preaching could never have imparted. As far as her actions are concerned, who am I to judge? Who am I to say that she is this or that?

  184. shantam Prem says:

    Shahriar, your post was just the button. it reminded me hundreds of talks at ashram.

  185. Kranti says:

    Shariar

    ” A buddha field is not and cannot be democratic or dictatorial ”

    I agree with you totally.. this is the point i have always been trying to share in these forums.. We tend to assume lot of things about democracy..

    To me democarcy has its serious limitations. It may still has its use in administering a govt.. but certainly not a Buddhafield..

    In a Buddhafield we are talking about awareness… Anyone who has higher level of awareness will bound to take up a higher position.. although it looks dictatorial from outside it is not..

    People with awareness & meditativeness should run the show at Pune.. And it is what happening…there is no need for us to re-invent the whell all over again

    Osho has created an ORGANISM and any effort on our part to suggest things like democarcy is to take a position that we are more aware than Osho..

    I dont even have words to say what it is..

    I really liked the post by Merlina ..She is looking at things with such openess without bringing her mind.. I think we should discuss about the points she is mentioning ..

    I have also read the Tears of Mystic Rose book and i have felt a certain authenticity with Rajneesh..although i will never know why he has such an aversion to therapists … he calls them ‘ the rapists’ and he wants to wipe out them.. Thats a bit surprising…

    But Osho has room for every aspect of learning / growing including therapists… This is where Osho is so vastly different from others.. He was able to abosorb so much from every religion / philiosophy / ideas / healing and creative a OPEN system..

    People say Osho didnt have any teachings on his own and so he just took everything from other religions ..But thats exactly the specilaity & intelligence of Osho .. he saw the essence in everything and pointed out that.. It is up to you to follow …what is the need for creating one more philosophy / religion..We have enough of all the nonsense….

    So it is not possible to create a strict idealogy or Vision for him.. We can do our best to keep the Openess towards growth going..

  186. Kranti says:

    So what is this openess towards growth.?

    Allowing space for everything & everyone which Osho allowed without major conditions ?

    Head , Heart & What is in Middle…???

    Enlightened sannyasins , Unenlighetned , Who dont want to be enlightened …???

    Threapsists , pshychologists and every other form of healers…???

  187. Merlina says:

    From the parts I’ve read in Tears of the Mystic Rose, I think Rajneesh’s aversion to therapists may be to do with the fact he was being judged and told he needed therapy to make him more ‘normal’, and/or the fact that, as i understand it, Indians are not allowed nowadays to participate in therapy groups in Pune.

    He, too, seems to have fallen into the trap of becoming a reactionary, in that respect. But I agree that he seems very sincere and has a deep love for Osho. I don’t know whether or not he’s enlightened, but I feel he has a totality and courageous commitment to his going for his own truth that is inspiring.

    I am trying to approach this situation with an open heart – though my mind is still present.! My insights partly from my own direct experiences and impressions. I’ve been in situations that have confronted me both with the rebel/reactionary and the duality of the dreamer/cynic within me.

    Whether Sheela is responsible – the fact is she was in a position of power which she misused and she betrayed the trust of the sannyas community. But it was because of the willingness of sannyasins to unquestioningly accept what was being imposed on them.

    I read in one of the books documenting those events that Sheela was raped as a young woman. This doesn’t justify her behaviour but I think having been brutalised and violated herself would have almost certainly be at the root of it.
    Do we therefore hold the guy who raped her responsible? Maybe he, too, was violated….and so on. Rajneeshpuram seems to be a situation that revealed and highlighted the dark unconscious side of human behaviour alongside the love and light.

    It’s also interesting to note that America history reveals that every city that was built in America had corruption amongst its leaders in the early days.

  188. Dilruba says:

    l wonder why l keep coming back to this forum .. inspite of knowing ..
    that we all project ourselves here .. l keep investigating inside whether .. this rigmarole .. will ever take us to the Truth ….. and the answer l get is a Big NO … still one has to go on … Chareveti …Chareveti …!

  189. Kranti says:

    As said earlier i never participated in forums / discussions when it comes to Osho.. I restrained myself for almost 15 years or so..

    But after participating in this forum it has surely given me a nice balance in the way i look at other people views.. I strongly feel it will only help me to grow towards truth because i am able to see my mind & how it was holding on to positions more easily than earlier..

  190. Kranti says:

    Merlina..

    There is a video in youtube where Rajneesh talks aggresively against the therapists.. I couldnt watch full video..only first few minutes i watched..let me try again..

  191. Neo Vivek says:

    I just watched Ma Aneesha’s video interview with Nirmal for Zouddha site. Its on google videos. She was into conducting therapy.
    Now if anything on earth can make you as full of life as her … well… its worth it… her whole interview was sheer poetry in motion.

  192. Kranti says:

    Is it Maneesha you are talking about ?

    If so Yes.. You can see Osho in every move of her..Very beautiful sannyasin..

  193. Kranti says:

    Sorry Neo Vivek.. i misread the name.. you are talking about Ma Aneesha

  194. Alok john says:

    The Osho the Movie site has been up a year or more without changes, so I guess the project, a very difficult one, is on hold.

    Sw Arun of Nepal has made some contacts in Hollywood, and also hopes to make a feature film about Osho.

  195. Kranti says:

    Thanks aloke for the Info..

    I was going through the links.. one by one

    At some point seeing the way Osho sannyasins flowered i couldnt control tears..In Prashantam’s site i saw him dancing in a small hall with Osho sitting the background iand watching ..must be Bombay apartments..

    Cant help feeling how close people were to Osho during that period..

  196. Alok john says:

    Yes Kranti, it was a wonderful and strange time, dark as well I think

  197. shantam Prem says:

    One of the intelligent and honest journalist cum politican in India has commented today about the decline in his political party.
    He has quoted Mao, “Bombard the headquarters. Clean up everybody from the top. Bring ten-fifteen people from the states who are competent, honest and dedicated and reconstruct immediately.”

    Am i quoting this out of context?

  198. Kranti says:

    Why do you say it was dark Alok? especially those very early days..of Bombay apts and Early Pune 1

  199. Kranti says:

    ‘ Am i quoting this out of context?”

    Knowing you Shantam the answer is NO.

  200. shantam Prem says:

    Merlina
    Your posts are joy to read.
    Honesty and enquiry coming through your words is a cappuccino for the nerves, other than the fact you add Rajneesh as a spoon full of sugar and in my age half is already too much.
    love
    shantam

  201. Alok john says:

    For example you heard of Western people dying unnecessarily of diseases like hepatitis in Pune 1. My impression, anyway, was that many Western Pune 1 sannyasins, had had a poor start in life, poor parenting, no career options etc. So sannyas was a last resort for people with nothing.

    Sometimes at the start of old videos of Pune1 the camera pans round the orange clad sannyasins listening to Osho. I think they look pretty bad.

    But this might be my “mind.” Maybe others would disagree.

  202. Kranti says:

    ” ….through your words is a cappuccino for the nerves………spoon full of sugar and in my age half is already too much ”

    Thats Shantam.. Even if the name is not given i can say its Shantam’s post..

  203. Kranti says:

    Possible Alok.. I also read few books where people used all kind of means including drugs just to earn money to be with Osho…before the so called rich sannyasins arrived..

  204. Kranti says:

    ..so called rich sannyasins arrived..and took Osho to US.. and everything changed after that.. Is that right ? ( Nothing serious guys ..take it easy..)

  205. shantam Prem says:

    Few more nuggets from a poltician called Arun Shourie.
    Many times to listen about God from a prostitute is much more enriching than from a priest.

    In the comments below, Instead of “Party”, please add your own flaovour, Ashram/resort/commune/sangha

    Shourie said what was happening in the party now was that raising questions has become indiscipline.

    I can identify with this one-He also virtually dared the party to take action against him but said if it did it, “they are only killing the
    messenger”.

    The party was being run like a private company in which top leaders were indulging in mutual projection and mutual protection. The current leadership cannot be expected to change the situation….There should be total transformation.”

  206. shantam Prem says:

    “..so called rich sannyasins arrived..and took Osho to US.. and everything changed after that.. Is that right ?”

    Kranti, your curiosity is going in the forbidden territory.
    Anderas Roth or his classmates can put more light on this.

    This afternoon, the thought was also floating in my brain about the consumer mentality of our time and the stories of Gautama the Buddha’s time.

  207. Shahriar says:

    what is the consumer mentality of our time Shantam?

  208. Dilruba says:

    Merlina good to have this freshness … are you on FaceBook .. my id is Dilruba Dhar … in case U dont mind … this friendliness ?

  209. amrito says:

    hi Shantam,

    \who is Arun Shourie?

  210. Kartar says:

    The current inner circle or even an elected one is basically a group of people telling us how to discipline our lives with set rules. So many rules and disciplines engraved in stone, do this, do that, countless shoulds and should nots from the inner circle and OIF and others.

    As a result our dignity is removed and we are inprisoned by someone elses rules and discipline or decisions, thereby stifling our creativity and individual freedom.

    Our own discipline, decisions and rules or even experiences, needs to be exactly that our own, from our heart, not from the inner circle or the priests and politicians.

    Rules, decisions, experiences or discipline is an individual phenomena. Don’t let anyone take that away from you. Whenever you borrow it you start living according to set principles.

    Dead principles and life is never dead. Life is constantly changing. Each moment. Life is a flux.

    Remember, “Be true to yourself.” doubt and question everything, don’t follow like lost sheep.

    Peace, love and mung beans…and be a light unto yourself..

  211. Neo Vivek says:

    ” Remember, “Be true to yourself.” doubt and question everything, don’t follow like lost sheep. ”

    Kartar, for a lost sheep, any direction is the right direction to start off.
    And to be true to yourself, one has to first drop all that is false, possibly via meditation. Than only one comes to know them self.

    So, what you are talking is true, but for a lost sheep, the words you used would be gibberish.

  212. Neo Vivek says:

    Alok john
    “For example you heard of Western people dying unnecessarily of diseases like hepatitis in Pune 1. My impression, anyway, was that many Western Pune 1 sannyasins, had had a poor start in life, poor parenting, no career options etc. So sannyas was a last resort for people with nothing.”

    Alok, 1960s was the time when Hippie Movement was at its peak in the West and there was a great urge in everyone for change and to find out who they really are.

    Also, last resort for people who have a poor start in life, poor parenting, no career options etc. is suicide or drugs etc … Not coming all the way to east to take sannyas

  213. Shahriar says:

    “The current inner circle or even an elected one is basically a group of people telling us how to discipline our lives with set rules. So many rules and disciplines engraved in stone, do this, do that, countless shoulds and should nots from the inner circle and OIF and others.

    As a result our dignity is removed and we are inprisoned by someone elses rules and discipline or decisions, thereby stifling our creativity and individual freedom.”

    No outside discipline can be true to your inner being. And a master does not give you an outer discipline, a master is simply in tune with life and in his presence you can also atune yourself to life. A master is aware and in his presence you can also become aware. And a master is a human being and in his presence you gather confidence, you start having faith in your own possibility and hope that “yes this is possible for me also”. In the presence of a master you realize that enlightenment is a very human thing, you do not have to be “superhuman” to receive enlightenment.

    Kartar it seems that you have spoken righty: “As a result our dignity is removed and we are inprisoned by someone elses rules and discipline or decisions, thereby stifling our creativity and individual freedom.”

    A master has only one discipline and that discipline is awareness. Once you are aware everything else follows of its own accord. For example, blissfulness. Blissfulness is natural so why are we miserable? Why do we suffer? Because we do not understand how we create misery and suffering for ourselves. So how to become blissful? Through Awareness. Awareness allows you to understand how you create misery for yourself and allows you to stop creating misery for yourself so that your natural blissfulness can flower. Awareness allows you to see what decision will bring you to fulfillment and what will lead you into unfulfillment and frustration. Therefore a master is awareness. A master is simply a clarity, and in the presence of a master no rules or commandments are given, but very naturally and spontaneously you find your own discipline and way. So a masters job is not to guide but to enlighten. Once you are enlightened then you can walk alone because then you have your own awareness. And it makes sense that a master does not guide but enlightens because how long can a master send guidline? A master is very momentarily in the body so that does not make any sense. A masters job is to enlighten you and awaken your own awareness. Once that awareness has been awakened you can simply see clearly what needs to be done and how to go about doing it.

    Shantam when I asked you what the consumer mentality of our time was, I may have asked in a wrong tone. I do not want you to take this as an effort to draw you into a fight or an argument. I was simply inquiring so that I could understand and we could have a dialogue. Because when you mentioned the consumer mentality, it seemed very random and unrelated, so I thought talking about it would help me understand how it relates to everything else in this conversation.

    With all the sincerity in the world,

    Shahriar

  214. Shahriar says:

    I was originally going to write “with all the love in the world” but then I started wondering whether to put love, authenticity or sincerity. So I decided to go with sincerity although I think that being authentic is the highest, then love. Because if you are authentic you will be able to see what you are. And if you are deceiving youself, how will you be able to know that your love is authentic? And I want you ask you guys, if someone said “I love you but my love is not authentic” how would you respond, what impression would that create on you? So I will say with authentic love.

    Although you should not be deceived by words because anything can be written as far as words are concerned but this does not make them true. You can say “God is” but this does not mean that by your saying it something happens or you can say “God is not” but nothing will happen in this case also as far as reality is concerned. To know reality, you have to go beyond mind and words and language, otherwise what you will see will not be reality but a world that you have created for yourself. A world of symbols and thoughts but not reality, not truth, not existence. And in this very moment, there are people who exist in the state of “no-mind” or you can call it “reality” or “that which is”.

  215. Harri Om says:

    Merlina says the following…But it was because of the willingness of sannyassins to unquestioningly accept what was being imposed on them.

    This is beautiful and it is really the only reason why I have bothered to write anything at all. I know that I am playing games with words in an intellectual dynamic meditation event. However I also know that the people asleep at the wheel of a ferry heading slowly towards a great waterfall are carrying a boat load of sheep singing praises of joy and salvation.

    Shahriar, Kranti, and Kartar seem to follow a similar point of view. I am trying to understanding it. One repeated thread is that those above oppress those below (and you include yourselves in this ‘below’). The way out of the structure is to argue for indiviudal freedom.

    I disagree entirely with your point of view. Everyone is free to do whatever they like, except one thing: they are not free to interfere in the lives of other people. If you agree to this concept of non-interference, how does that fit with what you are proposing?

    Essentially I see what you are arguing is entirely impractical. Shahriar talks about the idea of complete knowledge. This concept, like that of working without influence from your (negative) personality, simply ignores the fundamental nature of human beings.

    The idea that at the Osho resort conscious people have migrated to the top of the power structure is ridiculous. Sheela is the best known historical example.

    Those who are interested in power migrate towards the top of the power structure. They may be more or less conscious. Also, and this is very important, once they are in a position of influence that may become an overwhelming obsession (the status, the attention, the money, the sex), and they may cease to meditate. In this way you get a previously nice conscious person turning into a murdering tyrant. Just don’t ask Sheela about this one because after all her years in prison she still doesn’t get it.

    On the subject of organisational structure Shahriar discusses the idea of functional management. The example used is that of the postal system. In discussing meritocracy Osho makes the exact same argument as you have done by using the same example of the postal system. Shahriar I hope you are not copying anyone in your writings?

    I disagree entirely with the example of the postman. It is argued that noone cares who runs the postal system, just as long as the mail is delivered in an efficient and timely manner. This is wrong. Just ask all the people working in the postal system whether they agree with you. Ask the second-in-charge of a big city post-office what he or she thinks of your proposition.

    The postal system example seems to work well because being a postman or postwoman is not something that most people desire. Most people like to do bigger things like running a country or a religious organisation. However in any group of people there is an infinite array of power relations.

    Ask the women (and gays etc) in Afganistan about your proposal. Under your idealised framework they are free to be persecuted by the physically stronger male Afghan population. This has happened since the dawn of time. This cannot be stopped unless there is the creation and enforcement of a charter that protects the rights and freedoms of people and beings (and non-beings) of all persuasions.

    You think that some sort of social system that protects individual freedoms is an oppression on you. This is because you are interested in power. Let me repeat that for hope that it will reach you just a little. This is because you are interested in power. Also, you do not have it. Hence you see any relationship as the powerful being dominated by the week. So you propose the idea of no relationship at all. That is your idea of getting out of the power struggle. This however will not work because each persons capacity to use their power needs to be fully developed inorder for them to grow onwards on their journey to higher human and divine accomplishments.

    You try and deny power and I try and point out that by doing so you will be turning a blind eye to the powerful oppressing the powerless. It will still go on while you live in your dream world of renunciation. One day your renunciation will come pummelling back as your power opens up. When this happens it may bring unwanted and harmful surprises.

    Democracy by literal definition is “rule by the people”. It occurred in its original form as democratic city states. When the need arose every person would attend a meeting, voice their opinion, and vote. Organisations (and countries) with large populations makes this impractical. Hence the concept of representational democracy develops. Democracies today are of this kind. The idea is that the people choose who it is they would like to represent them.

    The philosophical quandary is whether or not the elected person is there to reflect the will of those who elected them, or once elected, to act in the peoples best interest the best way they see fit. Obviously once someone is in power it is to some extent up to themselves where they sit with this quandary. However if the general population sees that the leaders idea of representing them is out of tune with their own idea, then the next time there is an election, their voting will reflect this.

    Just look at Germany in the time of Hitler. There are so many personal accounts of German people being forced to participate in acts of treachery against the Jews. Many of these people probably voted Hitler into power. However by the time Hitler had changed from a sane democratically elected leader into a brutal dictatorial tyrant, it was too late. Hitler had is army of followers that would crush any dissent or questioning.

    In my opinion this process is what happened with Sheela, and this same process is happening with the leadership of the inner-circle and the leadership of the Pune resort.

    I don’t mind if you sing sweet songs of praise to the leadership of inner-circle and Pune resort management. I just ask that if you prefer not to drown, you take up swimming lessons.

    http://oshodemocracy.blogspot.com

  216. Harri Om says:

    Merlina says the following…But it was because of the willingness of sannyassins to unquestioningly accept what was being imposed on them.

    This is beautiful and it is really the only reason why I have bothered to write anything at all. I know that I am playing games with words in an intellectual dynamic meditation event. However I also know that the people asleep at the wheel of a ferry heading slowly towards are great waterfall have their sheep singing praises of joy and salvation.

    Shahriar, Kranti, and Kartar seem to follow a similar point of view. I am trying to understanding it. One repeated thread is that those above oppress those below (and you include yourselves in this below). The way out of the structure is to argue for indiviudal freedom.

    I disagree entirely with your point of view. Everyone is free to do whatever they like, except one thing: they are not free to interfere in the lives of other people. If you agree to this concept of non-interference, how does that fit with what you are proposing?

    Essentially I see what you are arguing is entirely impractical. Shahriar talks about the idea of complete knowledge. This concept, like that of working without influence from your (negative) personality, simply ignores the fundamental nature of human beings.

    The idea that at the Osho resort conscious people have migrated to the top of the power structure is ridiculous. Sheela is the best known historical example.

    Those who are interested in power migrate towards the top of the power structure. They may be more or less conscious. Also, and this is very important, once they are in a position of influence that may become an overwhelming obsession (the status, the attention, the money, the sex), and they may cease to meditate. In this way you get a previously nice conscious person turning into a murdering tyrant. Just don’t ask Sheela about this one because after all her years in prison she still doesn’t get it.

    On the subject of organisational structure Shahriar discusses the idea of functional management. The example used is that of the postal system. In discussing meritocracy Osho makes the exact same argument as you have done by using the same example of the postal system. Shahriar I hope you are not copying anyone in your writings?

    I disagree entirely with the example of the postman. It is argued that noone cares who runs the postal system, just as long as the mail is delivered in an efficient and timely manner. This is wrong. Just ask all the people working in the postal system whether they agree with you. Ask the second-in-charge of a big city post-office what he or she thinks of your proposition.

    The postal system example seems to work well because being a postman or postwoman is not something that most people desire. Most people like to do bigger things like running a country or a religious organisation. However in any group of people there is an infinite array of power relations.

    Ask the women (and gays etc) in Afganistan about your proposal. Under your idealised framework they are free to be persecuted by the physically stronger male Afghan population. This has happened since the dawn of time. This cannot be stopped unless there is the creation and enforcement of a charter that protects the rights and freedoms of people and beings (and non-beings) of all persuasions.

    You think that some sort of social system that protects individual freedoms is an oppression on you. This is because you are interested in power. Let me repeat that for hope that it will reach you just a little. This is because you are interested in power. Also, you do not have it. Hence you see any relationship as the powerful being dominated by the week. So you propose the idea of no relationship at all. That is your idea of getting out of the power struggle. This however will not work because each persons capacity to use their power needs to be fully developed in order for them to grow onwards on their journey to higher human and divine accomplishments.

    You try and deny power and I try and point out that by doing so you will be turning a blind eye to the powerful oppressing the powerless. It will still go on while you live in your dream world of renunciation. One day your renunciation will come pummelling back as your power opens up. When this happens it may bring unwanted and harmful surprises.

    Democracy by literal definition is “rule by the people”. It occurred in its original form as democratic city states. When the need arose every person would attend a meeting, voice their opinion, and vote. Organisations (and countries) with large populations makes this impractical. Hence the concept of representational democracy develops. Democracies today are of this kind. The idea is that the people choose who it is they would like to represent them.

    The philosophical quandary is whether or not the elected person is there to reflect the will of those who elected them, or once elected, to act in the peoples best interest the best way they see fit. Obviously once someone is in power it is to some extent up to themselves where they sit with this quandary. However if the general population sees that the leaders idea of representing them is out of tune with their own idea, then the next time there is an election, their voting will reflect this.

    Just look at Germany in the time of Hitler. There are so many personal accounts of German people being forced to participate in acts of treachery against the Jews. Many of these people probably voted Hitler into power. However by the time Hitler had changed from a sane democratically elected leader into a brutal dictatorial tyrant, it was too late. Hitler had is army of followers that would crush any dissent or questioning.

    In my opinion this process is what happened with Sheela, and this same process is happening with the leadership of the inner-circle and the leadership of the Pune resort.

    I don’t mind if you sing sweet songs of praise to the leadership of inner-circle and Pune resort management. I just ask that if you prefer not to drown, you take up swimming lessons.

  217. Neo Vivek says:

    I just ask that if you prefer not to drown, you take up swimming lessons.

    You pointing at a cloud;
    or the moon?

    Harri Om says
    “In my opinion this process is what happened with Sheela, and this same process is happening with the leadership of the inner-circle and the leadership of the Pune resort.”

    Just for the sake of intellectual integrity, on what grounds/ reasons/ actions, do you base your extreme opinion. I would help us see your point of view in a better light.

  218. Neo Vivek says:

    - I* would help us see your point of view in a better light.
    + It* would help us see your point of view in a better light.

  219. Shahriar says:

    Harri Om,

    There is a possibility that I am blind but I do not see that I am blind. It is possible for a blind man to think that he has eyes. As far as you bothering to write something at all, I appreciate it because we can have a vigorous debate and we can consider standpoints and views which may not be the same as ours.

    One of the problems with functional management is that human beings are not machines, so if you want functional management you will have to turn them into machines. I did not see that when I was previously writing my post. I was blind to it. I have not stolen from Osho because this idea does not belong to anyone, although I am not the originator of the idea. I agree with that. I acknowledge that I have had teachers and they have added something to my world view. I should have given them credit which I did not do. It was arrogance on my part.

    One thing I notice is that you can see areas where we are blind and we can see areas where you are blind. This must mean that we are both blind and we have sight. Perhaps there are aspects which I have not/did not consider and which you did consider. This obviously means that when our debate is a search for truth, there is no attachment to being right or wrong and we are willing to accept if someone shows something which contradicts our own views.

    I did not say that Osho chose conscious people. My own view is that the people there, whether they are conscious or not, have no greater purpose that functional work.

    You are correct that power can destroy ones meditativeness if it is not strong enough. There is a certain point during which meditativeness has a stronger magenetism and attraction than power, during which the desire for power disappears. Power only corrupts a weak meditator and we are not here to decide whose meditation is weak or strong. People do care when it is an ego related thing. Such as power, status, etc. etc. etc.

    Democracy is beautiful just like communism is beautiful but where does communism exist? The problem is that democracy does not exist today. Neither America or Europe are based on love. They do have an image that has been cultivated. But the reality is otherwise. In reality, our world is still based on the principle of might is right. Why is America so important? because America is saying things that are relevant to human life and evolution? No, because America has power. Otherwise, Osho who was powerless but had a deep understanding about human life and society would have been listened to. Women in afghanistan are not considered human beings, and right now there is not way for them to revolt alone so those who are sensetive and conscious feel that something needs to be done, and rightly so. Action which is realistic and effective needs to be taken.

    Life has to be faced. I am uncertain about whether I said that people need to get out of relationship, but right now I say that it is only inside of life that growth and maturity happens. No where else. It is not possible to find liberation in isolation. It is only in life, and through encountering the challenges of life that liberation can be found.

    The problem with democracy is that one whose original purpose was to be a servant of the people becomes the master of the people. Elections pose a problem because once a president is elected, power moves out of the peoples hands. And in the first place, we have not even begun to question whether the people can make the right decision or not. Nothin will happen by avoiding this problem, the only way is to face it, encounter it and grow and mature through it.

    You say: “In my opinion this process is what happened with Sheela, and this same process is happening with the leadership of the inner-circle and the leadership of the Pune resort.

    I don’t mind if you sing sweet songs of praise to the leadership of inner-circle and Pune resort management. I just ask that if you prefer not to drown, you take up swimming lessons.”

    What you say is correct and I am not singing sweet songs in praise of them. I agree that this is a problem which we need to encounter. One thing I would like to add is that while it is correct that we have to encounter this problem, to claim that your idea is right and other people’s ideas are wrong would be arrogance, which I have done in my life, and something which I may have done without knowing that i was doing it. Without thinking that I was doing it.

    Idealism, when it encounters a hard reality, loses its immaturity and its naivety. It becomes mature. Experiences make us mature. They make us wise. I may be idealistic, I agree and I need to face life, I need to encounter life so that I can understand, so that my illusions can be shattered. One thing I would like to add is that illusions are of two kinds. Positive illusions and negative illusions. Someone thinks that the world is run by the “illuminati” and someone else thinks that things will go according to their desires of what “should be”.

  220. Harri Om says:

    Shahriar says we are both blind and have eyes. This is exactly my point. You say I am arrogant. You have accepted that in certain areas I have helped you see your blindness. I have not accepted the reverse. You are saying that I am to some extent blind. I have not said whether or not I accept this. This is arrogance on your behalf.

    Neo Vivek, you ask am I pointing at the cloud or at the moon? I am pointing at neither. I am pointing at the earth. What I am saying comes from the perspective of a person who has no special spiritual qualities. I am not saying do this or understand that to become enlightened. I am saying don’t do this or please understand that to become sane. I am not claiming to be enlightened. I am however claiming to be sane. I do also claim that many Osho sannyasins are not.

    Osho Rajneesh (and I use both names for a reason) was a visionary being with a philosophy based fundamentally on individual freedom. It is a new spiritual metaphysics about what it is that is the basic stuff and make-up of this existence. However because he saw so far into the future his philosophical doctrine matches that. It is a doctrine for a highly conscious and civilized society that has yet to evolve. This is why he always said that he was yet to be understood.

    The term Rajneesh is part of a memory better left hidden so new potential clients will come into the fold so then we can get really rich and powerful. I say that the existence of “Osho” and “Rajneesh” needs to be fully understood.

    When a person is evolved and conscious enough then if they listen to Osho they will be inspired to explore both the internal and external fruits of life. However they will not interfere in the lives of others. Their consciousness gives them an ethical grounding that says “no I will not do this or that for it is wrong” because they have the sensitivity to see the effect this has on other individuals. If they are not conscious enough, or if they lose consciousness, then they will act out their negative desires and bring harm to themselves and others.

    I say I am pointing to the earth and I claim to be sane. This is because humans have evolved to come to a basic understanding of ethics – the ten commandments in Christianity for example. The laws enshrined into a countries constitution are there to ensure that unethical conduct is not permitted.

    At The Ranch the idea of needing sannyasins to act as police was frowned upon as absurd. Osho himself proclaimed that no-one was ever raped at The Ranch. What is the need of laws and the enforcement of them? However The Ranch fostered serious ethical and criminal misconduct – up to mass poising and (at least) attempted murder. It was the United States law enforcement agencies that prevented worse crimes from being committed, and punished those who committed these crimes.

    Osho sannyasins (and many others) may ask (and continue to ask) why so many Osho centres appear to be a breading ground for corruption and criminality. As mentioned this was even the case when Osho was in the body. The reason is because Osho gave you the freedom to try and grow into a highly civilised and conscious society. We, as a collective, failed the test. The social experiment failed and if Osho sannyasins do not understand that they are not sufficiently evolved enough to live out his vision without laws and rules and ethics, then they will continue to commit ethical and criminal acts in the name of Osho and his vision.

    There is a second reason for the link between criminality and Osho’s sannyasins. This is because many people know all about the types of criminal conduct that is going on, yet they do nothing about it. They say they are living Osho’s vision of individual freedom, rebelling against an oppressive and unconscious world. It is not because of this at all. It is because those people are interested in becoming the leaders in the Osho movement. Many people at the Osho resort know much of filthy ethical and criminal misconduct, yet they do nothing and say nothing.

    If a person witnesses a crime and then does not report it, this is a crime in almost all legal jurisdictions – including inside an Osho resort. If this crime be serious enough then the person who did not report it will end up with a heavy prison sentence. This is not about enlightenment, or moons or stars or anything beyond. This is about the basics of what it is to be a sane human being. Insane human beings commit crimes and end up in prison. It is not about enlightenment at all. It is about sanity.

    Ironically Osho’s vision suits a highly conscious collective of people. In the name of this many Osho sannyasins are actually living in a state of deep unconsciousness – deeper than most normal people who live in the average town in the average country on an on average sane planet.

    I made up a nice story about a ferry with a captain asleep and some sheep on board, heading towards going over a grand waterfall. Some of the people I am sharing with here are very clearly not sheep singing sweet lullabies. However what many of them are doing is sitting out the back, biding their time, waiting for the right moment to sneak round the side and grab the helm. In the hope of getting higher up into Pune resort management, or even perhaps into the inner-circle, many Osho sannyasins who know much of what is not only highly unethical, but also extremely criminal, keep their mouths shut. This is a crime. The journey towards enlightenment is a journey from the criminal, insane, and uncivilised, through to being a normal human being, and then onwards towards the divine.

    Two groups of Osho sannyasins belong to the categories of both the insane and the criminal. These are the people that run the Pune resort, and the leadership of the inner-circle. The third group of people are the singing sheep. There only crime is of ignorance. Although this means that they are not doing wrong, it does mean that along with many others, they will suffer.

    One way of saying it is that Osho was a visionary meant for evolved beings that have yet to arrive. I however (arrogantly or not) disagree. A wiser being would have crafted the vision in a manner that both fitted with the consciousness of humanity, and changed with humanities evolving consciousness. Admittedly this is difficult when a master lives in a body that lasts just a few short decades. Perhaps Osho weighed this idea up in his mind and concluded that he will hold up the diamond that shines brightest, regardless of how dull his followers be. No-one will ever know the answer to this question. If it can ever be said to make sense perhaps he was too wise?

    I have been pursuing the argument that a conscious democracy is a meritocracy – just like what Osho was proposing. However as it turns out when I came to the end I was on the opposite side of the park to Osho. I claim to be sane, no more nor less, and so be it.

    The philosophical doctrine that I am suggesting you look at is not about control, it is about protecting the sane from the insane, the sensitive from the criminal. It adds the elements of rights and justice to the equation. Unconditional freedom is an oxymoron. You are not free to interfere in the lives of others, else the others be not free. Osho’s guiding light is a freedom for (dong this or that). We also need to be free from (others doing this or that to us).

    There are those sannyasins that commit crimes in the name of Zorba’s freedom. There are also those sannyasins who are not sheep but thick-skinned lions waiting to pounce. For both these groups of people there needs to be laws to uphold and enforce what is right and what is wrong. For the sheep, there is always the option of a mental institution.

    I am an Osho sannyasin and I claim to be sane.

  221. Shahriar says:

    “Shahriar says we are both blind and have eyes. This is exactly my point. You say I am arrogant. You have accepted that in certain areas I have helped you see your blindness. I have not accepted the reverse. You are saying that I am to some extent blind. I have not said whether or not I accept this. This is arrogance on your behalf.”

    You have not accepted the reverse, although I have said this, which may not be true, there is no necessity for it to be true, unless I am claiming to be enlightened or something of this sort. This is arrogance on my part, although if it was not arrogance and you were simply trying to call me arrogant, truth would not change by your or my saying that “this is so” or “that is not so”

    Harri Om,

    As far as I know Osho has said that freedom is not licentiousness. Freedom comes with tremendous responsibility. And as far as laws are concerned, laws are needed to some extent. I say to some extent because when people do not have food they will steal, so it does not matter how many laws you make. As long as the population is too much, or the food supply is too little stealing will go on. So in this case laws would not change the fundamental cause. But as far as the different aspects of society are concerned I agree, there needs to be some system of social justice to protect the rights and freedoms of individuals. And in our society, that does not currently exist. There are still many mechanisms in our present society that allow people to oppress. Such as money. Money can be used as a tool in the hands of ill-intentioned people to influence and dominate others. Ownership is one other such mechanism. To own something allows you power to impose your will, although collective ownership would simply put power into the hands of the state which is even worse. And we are living in society, so this means that we must agree to some sort of order or code. BUT, we must ensure that our individual freedom is as total as it can be. In reality, the only thing that needs to be ensured as far as law is concerned is our non-interference in other people’s business, so that means arbitrary restrictions on human action must be eradicated but a very clear code of conduct must also exist so that freedom and justice are ensured. And this must be approached realistically, writing words on a piece of paper is not a thorough enough approach.

  222. Harri Om says:

    Shahriar, whether or not you are arrogant is indeed independant of the truth of a subject. However it does not change the truth of your arrogance.

    Yes writing words is not enough, however unfortunately there seems no place else to start.

    Also, I dare (in fact I request) anyone to sue me for slander.

  223. Shahriar says:

    “Also, I dare (in fact I request) anyone to sue me for slander.”

    I am reminded of a case against a certain german politician who was called a fascist by some person. The court gave the astonishing conclusion that it was not slander, but the truth. What you said reminded me of it.

    So I do not want to pretend, or deceive, or avoid because that will not change what is. There are people who do not know this so they deceive, but once you know with your total being (as opposed to simply intellectually) that avoiding the truth does not solve anything, then self-deception falls away.

    “Shahriar, whether or not you are arrogant is indeed independant of the truth of a subject. However it does not change the truth of your arrogance.

    Yes writing words is not enough, however unfortunately there seems no place else to start.”

    We have to start somewhere, but we should not start believing that just because we have written our ideals on a piece of paper that now things are perfect and we can simply remain content with believing there is “justice” and “love” and avoid looking at the truth. It seems that I should have aritculated this so that it had more clarity as far as getting my idea across.

    I am not concerned with arguing the existence of God, because logic has nothing to do with reality and whether God exists or not. Even if logic proves or dispoves, reality does not change.

  224. Neo Vivek says:

    Harri Om
    I could make out 3 points you have made.

    1. You say… There are crimes being conducted on serious nature and everyone has their mouth shut. …

    Maybe i have not got that close to the sun to get burnt, but i did not seriously see any crimes at pune resort… yes .. maybe spiritual crime like not taking deep interest in creating a strong Buddha field (Master’s vision) and focusing more on money.

    2. you say: Sane need to be protected from Insane.

    - People are capable of protecting themselves. If they are not, its an excellent learning ground for them.

    - I believe, seeing world as a dangerous place ( xyz needs to be protected ..blah blah ) just puts you at a place where you just cannot see things with clarity. Its a conditioning that needs to be dropped.

    3. you say “This is because humans have evolved to come to a basic understanding of ethics – the ten commandments in Christianity for example. ”

    BS :) Understanding comes through experience.. experience of everything.

  225. shantam Prem says:

    Amazing, just few hours of sleep and discussion has gone from 202 to 225 comments.
    Somehow we are going to far into the discussion of democracy and dictatorship, as our main concern in this form is OSHO.
    The complete O left and right.
    and this is also a fact that in the name of calligraphy, O has been mutated like a chewing gum by the small group of people, who could get the control because of Osho’s sick body and financial clout.
    As they don’t have any moral, spiritual, ethical or public support behind them, most of the decisions taken by them will whither away.
    Two universal points arise from this situation.
    One is that a power is not good in the hands of fanatics. Fanatics means who have incapability to move and rotate their neck. Their vision is fixed like a little camera on the laptops.

    Secondly, why intelligent and educated sannyasins numbered in hundreds of thousands simply choose the way of withdrawing rather than confronting.

    Here in this context i was mentioning the feelings of consumer mentality. consumers don’t make much hassle they simply go to another shop if service and products are loosing the benchmark quality.

    In the context of master disciple relation; this relation was suppose to be more intense than parental or children or lover beloved form. This may be part of Indian conditioning but this whole concept of Master-disciple is conceived and nurtured by the inner intelligentsia of Indians.
    Master disciple thing is a rebelious against the concept of prophets and God’s incarnations in human form.

    This concept has taken the TRUTH out from the hands of choosen few. Everybody with a passion can kiss the peak of Himalyas. The years long practice is simply to learn, not to piss in the trousers when winds go tough..

    It is a common sense that when you export water melons, please try to eat the way natives do.
    No for few Master disciple concept is like the Coffee beans. Fetched from somewhere at bottom price, and than brewed and packed for the elites.

    but then one forgets the difference in mystery and of consumer products.

    You just don’t go out fromthe calling of the master, when the whether has gone rough. A big bunch of the 21 inner circle members who were carolling at His feet, simply went back to America.
    I don’t know whether they were packed out or they have chosen themselves to desert the main game.

    in the first instance there silence is of cowardliness, and in second, it is consumer mentality.

  226. Neo Vivek says:

    Shantam
    Osho always maintained – you stay here because you want to and i stay here because i want you. You should never stay here because i want you to stay.

    It would be wrong to accuse them of cowardliness

  227. shantam Prem says:

    As in the game of inner consumerism; osho is one of its kind, so i imagine him not in the league with others in the same business but with -
    Coca Cola And Kellogs

    These two products have spread their wings in every country. And as with most of the American things, philosophy is very simple just like Osho’s language.
    If a street like the taste, it is ready for the city and than another cities in the country and than overseas markets.

    The market skills of these two companies are legendary, and the belief in their product.
    With changing time and tastes, they have increased their products range, but the Original Coca Cola taste and kellogs corn flakes will still take the pride space on the shelves.

    What our people did.
    They simply chopped the wings of tried, tested and tasted Buddhafield developed and conceived by Osho.

    We could have 20 times more people entering the campus and what is now, i remember the face of Rickshaw drivers on koregaon park saying,” you people no more come. No good business Baba”!

  228. Neo Vivek says:

    The Master had to leave his body. The whole structure was to follow what Master desired / or a single person appointed by master ( Ma. Sheela ).

    Suddenly everything changed, now there were 21 instead of 1. The organism could not accept/ adopt a new mother. It became an organisation.

  229. shantam Prem says:

    Vivek, first of all , i have my mind, old and bulky
    so all the possibility is there of judgemental attitude.
    How so ever i wish to be free, fair and fearless in my being, courtesy Osho, my doctor. still, Leakage from the mind is always possible.

    And i will say hundred times sorry, if like a child playing, my soap bubbles touch the shirt of someone and if they touch the blouse, it will be sorry with smile!

    You have written-
    Osho always maintained – you stay here because you want to and i stay here because i want you. You should never stay here because i want you to stay.

    There are letters and tha love letters and than the last letter, the Testament.

    Same words written in different contexts will be interpreted differently. When a master entrusts you some responsibility during His last days, you treat it more preciously as your life.
    So was during Buddha’s time, so was during Jesus time, but it can not be in our time.

    I hope Shahriar, you are getting my point about consumer mentality.(and it is just my point, no quotation from holy book).

    These six and seven people, named as Hollywood gang had deep pockets, an aura of authority and equal job sharing as Jayesh. They were more mystical and mellow but would not have been in the situation to treat the one as crown prince.
    Why they disappeared as a group and what limitations they have felt not to take the job entrusted by the master,who just died…what should i say, OK. i will not use the adjective cowardliness, but will say they have proven to be the military experts for the peacetime.

    One scene i will never forget and it motivates me many times. I think it was July 1988, when Osho invited few of the best Hindi poets for their poetry recital in Buddha hall.
    He suggested that even the western people will not understand the language but they must feel the milieu, the atmosphere, and share with them, Our presence, which they will carry around in the country.

    Kavisha, Avirbhava, Yogi and David, these four people have remained sited all the time during these two and half to three hours. They could not understand the jokes, satires and the punches in Hindi but their presence was highly gracious and i bowed down many times for them, for their devotion towards the master’s request.

  230. Aman says:

    The Inner Circle Conundrum
    Reading this article, i feel to write a comment:
    “The present is the key for past” There is no wonder!!! Why Jesus has been chosen by astronomer to create Christianity with all his good intention.
    Mind is incapable to produce anything which can categorize “Quality”

  231. Alok john says:

    Neo Vivek wrote :

    “Also, last resort for people who have a poor start in life, poor parenting, no career options etc. is suicide or drugs etc … Not coming all the way to east to take sannyas”

    See Osho on suicide here
    http://www.blogcatalog.com/search.frame.php?term=sanyas+or+disciplehood:+the+tru+suicide&id=01b3ce4890186cb01f97642e4b86a707

    Kranti wrote..”so called rich sannyasins arrived..and took Osho to US.. and everything changed after that.. Is that right ? ( Nothing serious guys ..take it easy..)”

    Well they were looking for a site for a new ashram and could not find one in India. Sheela hated India and I think was one of the main forces behind the move to Oregon. Yes everything changed in America. They stopped meditating. They spent most of their time working. But it was quite a good life in the communes. If you had no family and no career, it was probably a better life than trying to survive in the West. That is one of the reasons why so many people put up with Sheela’s fascist regime. But also I am sure lots of people did love being around Osho. See Max Brecher’s Passage to America for detail.

  232. Dilruba says:

    Harri Om is sounding like Osho’s Bhagat Singh …l can see his hidden bombs in the court room … sannyassins / seekers beware of this guy ! {but only is he is scared to reveal his identity} ….

    lam / We are Free .. Why do we need any formalities ! Gratitude is enough … and its also ok if one doesn’t have Gratitude …

    to each his own … whether l / anyone likes it or not …

    all these comments{including mine} l can see is only .. Paradox !

  233. shantam Prem says:

    Harri Om,
    Please, take notice of Diruba’s comment.
    it is right time to tell also about yourself.
    Don’t be afraid, if you become martyr, we will have a facebook group for justice.

  234. shantam Prem says:

    Shahriar,

    was just checking facebook. There is one Shahriar Javidi. If it is not you, than your freinds are curious to see this young chap with wise soul.

  235. Kranti says:

    ” See Max Brecher’s Passage to America for detail.”

    Thanks Alok.. I will get hold of that book..

    If Sheela had been instrumental in Osho moving to US than no wonder she had that much control at the Ranch..

  236. Kranti says:

    Hari Om! For someone to say this much with liberty without revelaing identity is not correct.. at one shot you put everyone including people at Pune and other sannyasins ( sheep ) in this forum or else where into categories which we never dared to .. in the categories of Criminals and Insane and Sheeps..

    ” Two groups of Osho sannyasins belong to the categories of both the insane and the criminal. These are the people that run the Pune resort, and the leadership of the inner-circle. The third group of people are the singing sheep. There only crime is of ignorance. Although this means that they are not doing wrong, it does mean that along with many others, they will suffer. “

  237. Kranti says:

    Hari Om!

    By your own logic if the sannyasins are singing sheeps how do you exopect them to have the intelligence to vote for a Inner Circle.?

    We have already seen that the people whom you have chosen in the list are mostly exteremists not accepted by sannyas community itself..

    You yourself have categorized most of the sannyasins into ‘sheeps’

    The idea of democracy and voting has been proved as something which is out of context at least as far as a Buddha field is concerned..

    You dont have anything to lose..Please tell us who is posting those blogs in the name of Osho.. We all have identity crisis but not to the extent of calling ourselves Osho.. Let us continue our debates knowing whom we are talking to..

  238. Kranti says:

    Shariar

    Thanks for this ” I am reminded of a case against a certain german politician who was called a fascist by some person. The court gave the astonishing conclusion that it was not slander, but the truth ‘

    What must have been the awareness levels of those judges..if only every court case is decided like this based on context rather than generalizations..

  239. Kranti says:

    Kartar

    ‘ The current inner circle or even an elected one is basically a group of people telling us how to discipline our lives with set rules ”

    I dont think we have a set of rules / commandments from them..they are just managing a the place which provides all meditations. If at all there is anything only other people are telling them what to do / what not to do.. How are we saying these guys tell us ” how to discipline our lives with set rules ”

    In what context you are saying this..

  240. Kartar says:

    Thanks for everyone’s interest in what i am saying. Your replies are valuable.

    Kranti you state “In what context am I saying this”

    The thing is Kranti you have just taken what I said right out of context and placed your own interpretation by omitting the rest of the paragraph probably to suit your own needs or assumptions.
    .
    That’s okay here is the paragraph in full. The first sentence is the topic sentence which is usually related to the paragraph.

    Read it again maybe you will understand what I am referring to.

    “The current inner circle or even an elected one is basically a group of people telling us how to discipline our lives with set rules. So many rules and disciplines engraved in stone, do this, do that, countless should’s and should not’s from the inner circle and OIF and others.”

    Kartar the crazy Osho sannyasin :-)

  241. Kranti says:

    So you are saying i quoted you out of context..

    So you quote the entire paragraph which further talks about the same should’s and should not’s …

    I accept …. ” Kartar the crazy Osho sannyasin “…

  242. shantam Prem says:

    Kartar,
    What is your idea for the muliple growth of Osho movement, not from the sale of books point of view but say for example, we have two people here, Kranti and Shahriar, who have not tasted the commune (sangha)experience, but have the longing to jump in for a year or longer, the way previous generation of sannyasins could avail the opportunity.

    Same i would like to ask Heraculitus, Harri Om and Alok John too.

  243. Shahriar says:

    “Shahriar,

    was just checking facebook. There is one Shahriar Javidi. If it is not you, than your friends are curious to see this young chap with wise soul.”

    I have the pictures on my computer, but it seems I expect the grass to grow by itself, and all I would need to do would be to sit silently. LOL. I will try to get facebook in a few days, even today, if I could muster the will to do something.

    I am interested in knowing how Albert Einstein would respond to meeting Osho. Perhaps whether he would take sannyas or not? Who knows…there is every possibility that he would have…

  244. shantam Prem says:

    Harri OM, Harri OM, Harri OM
    where are you the sound of soundlessness?
    people are eager for your Darshan?

    PS- Please don’t take it as a push. It is not necessary for everyone to take part in public debates to share their opinion in a loud way but someone like you, how so ever lonely warrior you may be, must share your identity, it will be an oil on your words.
    God willing, His people will be able to create tunnel in the mountains, to make path easier for the pilgrimage.

    On the other side, if we have fear of retaliation from
    the powerful Osho people, than also we are undermining His vision. We are not dealing with Taliban kind of fanaticism full with brutality in their veins.
    In every resepect, All his people are the seekers of truth and ultimate refinement. We fight, the way cubs fight before the father Lion.
    I wish to see again a day when the young seekers work in their summer or steal the money form their father’s purse to buy the ticket for Pune, for girl/boy friend or mediation in an enviornment of international merger.
    Our hearts should radiate Osho not just the ashes at the Samadhi.

  245. groucho marx says:

    haiku:

    cult members
    mass debate
    on sannyas news
    the cult goes down the drain
    plop!

  246. shantam Prem says:

    If it is cult, it must go down the drain; truth will pop out again and again. Es Dhamo Sanantno!!

  247. Kartar says:

    Tough question Shantam.

    I don,t know.

  248. Shahriar says:

    I just put up my facebook page for those who want to see who I am and what I look like. I’m sure if you search for Shahriar Hassani on facebook, you will find me. Email is shahriarhassani@yahoo.com

  249. Harri says:

    I take it you don’t like mental institutions?

  250. Dilruba says:

    Harri om ……. whats happenning ? you havent given any comment …

  251. prem bubbie says:

    Shantam Prem, Since our bodies are of this earth and a product of evolution, nature has built in survival devices. One is fear, the other is competitiveness, which aggression is a part. These are natural and primal instincts – genetic. Humans have part of the brain, the right front cortex, that’s where “higher” reasoning occurs. This is rare and very new to any species on earth. I’m pretty certian that no other creature on this earth has our abilities. Yet, this right frontal cortex is a very small area compared to the rest of the brain, and the rest of the brain functions in a raw, primal way, very much like other primates. So even these educated and intellectual sannyasins are held to primal energies, fear and competitiveness. It shows me that very few sannyasins and meditators or lovers can be focused and aware most of the time, no matter how much “meditating” has been done, whether in years or decades. It’s like juggling 4 bowling pins while walking on a tight rope in a wind storm. I guess this can explain many things regarding Pune 1, the Ranch, Pune 2, and other things. We all have built in limitations, otherwise we could fly like a bird, swim like fish, and all of would be enlightened or gods. I think existence is crazy!!!! Just do the best we can!!

  252. garjuna says:

    Shantam Prem: there is no god!!!! Remember the great sannyasin nonsense when at the ranch Osho announced the “Chosen Few”. WOW, what a bunch of infants we were, “who can they be”? “Why wasn’t I on the list”? “What makes them so special”? What cry babies!!!! We did not deserve Osho . We still don’t.

  253. shantam prem says:

    Prem Bubbie and Garjuna,
    It is always a joy to listen, hear or read fellow sannyasins, there is always a freash breeze around them.
    Same is about your posts.
    And it is making me wonder for years that why we, His people with above average IQ and emotional intelligence could allow His work to be domintaed by the group of people who have below average emotional inelligence.
    “We did not deserve Osho . We still don’t….”

    may be we have to strech ourselves, we have taken Him too much for granted.

    Ps_please go on sharing in this uncensored platform, better in the latest threads for all out effect. Love

  254. So nice the new church, jjejejejeje …just kidding …I hope not yet another intelligent man used by stupid’s to have power to be stupid’s brand trademarked
    … we will have to argue whit opinions … i give you my hand… and propose a “Constitutional Convention” … the boos is the empty chair… we are on wonderfull times… cold war died when Osho left his body… and the truth is unclassified… the challenge we have its fantastic, the new society its springing up… the firs it’s to have all the words of Osho (video and taped discourses) , even the inconvenient true … it’s not time to fight for power… the opinions of inner circle or the opinions of the enlighten therapists … it’s time for the utopia…it`s always time…
    The power for what? …that is the question … Osho words can be heard only in one life… like enlighten can happened to use the mind as a tool … to create saved spaces to the seeds …like lot of sanyasins have done, by itself… to spread the Osho words like flowers like he say… whit all the possible media… the opininions always will be there … as obstacles … but we have to try, like our wonderfull Socrates poisoned only 20 years ago, like the last Jesus crucified by the empire 2000 years later… we have the responsibility to conserve the words the videos … like on a no time capsule …without our opinions … and then I vote for a new experiment of commune, if the inner circle prefers, parallel to the Osho business centers… an oasis its need … a Osho national park with our kind, sort specie turning into human beings … sustained by a 10 percent …TENTH… for example ( using the tools of the system, jejjeej) just for tools and food to start the sown… (its more complicate than this but it’s a short way to explain it) the rest its celebration… we can design it …for example… hearing the Osho discourses on Greece,,, well beloveds … count whit me … Thyohar for example have done a wonderful work, but it’s not reachable for the non monetary sanyasins but have the smell of kibbutz, an intelligent idea of Hebrews … but imagine all the people living life in piece… jajjjaja…. You coul say im a dreamer,.. but im not the only one… jejejjeej… loving you all… it’s so simple … we are the complicated ( used by system tricks) … and wen we wake up… the system just poisoned us… nirvesh69@hotmail.com

    NIRVESH

  255. Please your attention for the following!
    We peolpes of this earth that Osho made His disciples have come to introduce to the rest of Osho´s people the *Fairysaint that have come to help Us of this jungle of mind and forest of ignorance that ´s covering the possibility of His Rays reaching Us beneath the canopee!
    Please connect with blog: -”Mcveeresh.com”
    *by amritlind.Please look it up in “Googles.com”
    “Please stay in touch and see the to watch the moovy!”