An Open Letter re Modern Day “Sannyas”

Shahriar reflects on ‘Sannyas’ in 2009

Hello Dear Sannyasins

Osho has left his body. He has left behind enlightened sannyasins and sannyasins who are still on the path. He has left an immense body of words for those still on the path as fingers pointing to the moon. He has left an esoteric group of sannyasins who are living in the world as ordinary individuals and guiding those who need to be guided. He has left an exoteric group which is unconscious and can only decide out of unconsciousness.

Christianity, to preserve the unity of the Christian religion, gave power to a temporal and spiritual head, in the hope that through this Christians could be united and the truth could be preserved. They forgot that organizations exist for their own purpose and have no concern for the truth. They forgot that organizations are inhuman forces and when there are unconscious people within organizations, these organizations along with the ego inside of the unconscious people work to destroy the truth. They forgot that individuals are attracted to organizations not for the purpose of truth but for the purpose of ambition and ego.

Islam, divided into two groups, Sunni and Shia. A rigid central organization was not created although Islam fell into the hands of those who were ambitious and had political aims (rather than being preserved in the hands of non-ambitious, non-political individuals) and was thus perverted. The Islamic sects of Sunni and Shia had their own inflexible dogma and through the tyranny of those who had power and who thought that their understanding of Islam was the “only right one”, freedom of thought was opposed and fanaticism was created. Sufis, rebellious mystics, were opposed, although their truth could not be killed.

There are many other religions which I will not enter into, but it does not take much looking around to see the results of their works.

We sannyasins are in the same position and I want to share some insights with you.

Sannyas, cannot be contained in any dogma or any organization, it can only be contained in the conscious human heart. Osho cannot be contained in organizations, because organizations do not have a soul. Only the individual has a soul and has the potential to become awake and receive enlightenment. No organization has a soul, neither does it have the potential to receive enlightenment. Organizations cannot even love, they cannot even feel. Organizations are inhuman forces, and they are unconscious forces.

Osho’s work is multidimensional. There is the work of preserving his words. There is the work of sending invitations to others so that they can also participate in meditation and partake of consciousness and joy. There is the exoteric group, and there is the esoteric group.

As long as we live in the mind, our whole vision will be divided and confused. Enlightened sannyasins have no argument among themselves, but only a silent understanding of each other’s being. Those sannyasins who are still on the path to consciousness are a different matter entirely.

Each individual sannyasin will have his or her own understanding of Osho and his work. Opinions will differ, ideas will differ, and that is natural, but, there is one essential in which we are all in agreement, and that is meditation, attaining to our own ultimate potential and releasing the fragrance of the flower.

The essence of Osho’s work can be reduced to meditation, although there are many more dimensions inside of Osho’s work.

Since all sannyasins have not received enlightenment, and are still on the path, differences will exist, ideas, thoughts and opinions will differ from one another and sometimes will come into conflict. This is to be expected. As long as sannyasins are unconscious, we must allow each Individual (as opposed to organization) come to his or her own understanding of Osho’s work. Organizations do not have a heart, much less a human heart.. They do not have feelings, and you cannot love an organization. You can only love human beings, (and animals, plants, trees, the universe etc) therefore we must always remember that Osho can only be contained in our love and in our being and not in any sect. When strangers come to Osho, they are touched by the transformation that has happened in the lives of individual sannyasins and not by the organizations existing around Osho’s work. Remember that organizations do not care about the truth, and that they have no soul. The individual has a soul, but how can the collective have a soul? They collective can only have unconsciousness and ego.

Osho’s work will spread through the transformation that happens within the lives of individual sannyasins, and not through any collective effort. Collective effort can only be unconscious, and the leaders of collective efforts are in the majority of cases, individuals with all the poisons of ambition, jealousy, greed, prejudice and unconsciousness still inside of them and their work can only lead to disaster and not to any truth.

Sannyas must remain a loose community of individuals, united by the common bond of meditation. Our gatherings must be gatherings of love and joy, of celebration, sharing and of awareness. That is the meaning of sannyas. Sannyas is not a social revolution, but an individual rebellion and this is the only way that the world can be changed. The world is built on the foundation of individuals, and the meaning of sannyas is to change the human heart within oneself so that it is filled with love, and to transform the being so that it is aware, joyous and celebrating. Our concern is meditation and releasing the fragrance of meditation into the world. This does not need any hierarchical organization but rather it needs individuals with the love for mediation and loose communities wherein individuals can gather and participate in meditation and in love, joy, celebration and sharing.

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311 Responses to An Open Letter re Modern Day “Sannyas”

  1. Shahriar says:

    This was also part of my letter which may not have been included for the sake of length or because it did not relate to the rest of the letter. We can write it as P.S:

    I have been considering how an unenlightened person can recognize an enlightened person, since there are many who are pretending and trying to deceive. There is no way to judge from the outside whether a person is enlightened or unenlightened. Sufis, Zen Masters often look like ordinary human beings, but as the saying goes “carry jade within their hearts.” Perhaps to recognize an enlightened person, you have to be an authentic seeker whose life is devoted to the truth and is willing to sacrifice everything for the truth. Bodhidharma (right spelling?) and the disciple who cut off his hand comes to mind. Perhaps it is the intensity of your search which determines whether or not you can recognize an enlightened master.

  2. shantam Prem says:

    Shahriar, can you please, let the readers know who is the person behind such a nice article. When a name gets a face and a biography, a human being is created. Also people who are joining or leaving Osho have unique biographies, may not be the best sellers but inspiring in a way.

  3. Neo Vivek says:

    what about creating a powerful buddha field to help everyone in the journey… you need organisation for that, dont you?

  4. Prem Buddha says:

    The best article I have found in this forum and anywhere else about sannyas
    and Osho for a long time. Great insight. Thank you Shariar.

  5. Anand says:

    This article shows best the situation of sannyasins today in 2009. It also puts at absurdum all the talks in the past few weeks in this forum as hollow and mind games of the few.
    DHANYAM: please print in your Osho Viha Connection for a wider readership!

  6. Shahriar says:

    I am not against functional organization, organizations that are non-political and are only fulfilling a certain responsibility (such as the post office, or the electrical system), but how many organizations are functional organizations in this world? The problem is when organizations become something more than just functional.

    shantam prem, I don’t have a facebook page so I couldn’t send you there, (although I might be getting one) so I will give you a small biography of myself here:

    18 yrs old, in college. Male. Living in the U.S. I don’t have a picture of myself online, but If I can I’ll try to get one up. I found Osho by accident (or perhaps not so accidentally) when I picked up a copy of the book of secrets from my dad’s library. At first I just glanced over it, not really understanding it, but a year or so afterwards, I suddently understood what it was. (a book of meditation) As a teenager I had been interested in the occult and in yoga, so perhaps this was how I came upon Osho. (although I have a hunch it was not accidental) I was born in Iran but my family moved to the US 10 or so years ago. I have a younger brother, who is not particularly interested in religion. (fanatical atheist in my opinion) My family doesn’t have any specigic religion, which I attribute to the fact that they were nomads during the time of my grandfather. I love being myself with people, although I do have trouble making friends sometimes (which might be because the people around my do not have my interests, such as meditation) I am currently into something called Technocracy which you can read about on google. I deeply appreciate the pagan spirit (dancing, singing, being natural) and there is something about muslim architecture which I like, although I regret that the majority of muslims are unconscious and have perverted and destroyed what could have been something beautiful. I hope that is enough.

  7. Kranti says:

    Good Thoughts Shahriar..

    But the core conflict with your view is you have mixed up the need for ( 1 ) Sannyas must remain a loose community of individuals ( 2 ) The need for an organization or Organism to take care of administration of the a Buddha field in Pune , Publishing , and related aspects..

    You say ” Sannyas, cannot be contained in any dogma or any organization, it can only be contained in the conscious human heart. Osho cannot be contained in organizations, because organizations do not have a soul. ”

    Sure ..Totally agree.. No one here is asking sannyas need to be contained in an organization.. The issues here are

    1. What are we going to do with the Buddha field created by Osho in Pune and how this needs to b maintained / administered

    2.How to administer the Publishing / Trademarks / Copyright related aspects… Do we need one organization for that?

    Individual revolution will grow in Individuals..For publishing someone needs to walk up to a publishing house and sign a few papers.. No publishing house will allow you to do things without a legal structure..

    What will we do then.. Why every sannyasin wants to have control over publishing..Do they want to make some money out of publishing..If so what individual rebellion we are taking about?

    Another problem is Pune is not allowing operational freedom to run centers..then a collective effort should be taken resolve things via communication

    The problem is everyone is mixing things up..

    In short no one is ready to accept what Osho said..

    ” “The world headquarters will be publishing my books, will be releasing my tapes, videotapes, will be doing every kind of work. But it has no domination over anybody. All communes of the world are independent. All centers of the world are absolutely free. They are under nobody’s guidance. My sannyasins are directly related to me. The world headquarters will simply function so that you can have a connection with me. Otherwise you don’t have any place to whom to ask where I am, what is happening to me. The world headquarters is not in any way a power over any sannyasin, over any other sannyas centers, ashramas, communes. It has nothing to do with that. It is my secretariat. And its function is to convey to me messages of importance and to convey to the sannyasins my messages of any importance to anybody. It is not an organization. It is not a structure. It is simply a functional office.”

    Last but not least let us not take things so far as to talk about Enlightened sannyasins & Unconcious sannyasins.. I see a condemnation in your post about Unconcious sannyasins…

    If some one is enlightened then what is the need to be a sannyasin? The very effort to be a sannyasin itself means the person is still a seeker and on the path..

  8. Kranti says:

    ” I am not against functional organization, organizations that are non-political and are only fulfilling a certain responsibility (such as the post office, or the electrical system), but how many organizations are functional organizations in this world? The problem is when organizations become something more than just functional. ”

    Thats why Osho created a Organism called Inner Circle.. It was not allowed to be the way Osho wanted it to be..

  9. Anand says:

    Kranti: the points you mention about A) the Pune resort B) the Osho publishing.
    All this is taken care of already – following Osho’s guidance.
    Osho’s books are being licensed via OIF from London, so what is the problem?
    If you think you will do better, why not join first Osho International offices in London. I heard they are short of people.
    And the resort: why not join forces there, spend some months there this winter
    and go deeper. Then come back and see what came out of this experience.
    Why use these pages for talk, talk, talk….?
    Do you really believe that anyone from Jayesh’s offices or Pune resort is reading
    these so-called ‘sannyas news’?

  10. Kranti says:

    With due respect to everyoen my solution is simple..just two points

    1. Leave the Publishing / Trademarks / Copyrights / Maintaining a Buddha field in Pune etc Pune Mgt – An Inner Circle.. Be it a 21 people Inner Circle or 5 people Inner Circle.. as long as it is an Organism respecting sannyasins it should be alright..

    2. Get more operational freedom to run individual meditation centers..in terms of what meditation need to be offered and when ..Dont even insist on a white robe everyday..leave it individual collectivity in those meditation centers to decide what meditations / camps they want to adopt…

    Individuals will grow as Individuals.. But they will not get their share of rights in publishing and all..

    Problem arises because these things are mixed up and people ask for My Share of Cake in everything…

  11. Kranti says:

    Anand .. i appreciate your points.. But unfortunately you didnt see that you and me are saying the same thing..

  12. Shahriar says:

    I was not condemning unconscious sannyasins, because then I would be condemning myself also.

    As far as the buddha field in Pune is concerned, everyone will have their own opinions. I know there is a dispute between copyrights etc. going on.

    One question that comes to my mind is whether Osho’s words can be preserved with purity if there is a copyright on them or if there is no copyright? Which one is more effective in preserving the purity of his words?

    I was reading that a few people were banned from Pune, again the question comes to my mind for what reason? with what authority? and what kind of disturbance were they creating which led to them being banned? (especially since as far as I know they were not harming anyone or interfering in anyone’s mediation)

    The managers in Pune have their own understanding of Osho’s work, but it seems that they do not want to allow other people to have their understanding. As far as I see, there are going to be differences of opinion, and I think they should be welcomed as long as no one does anything that can harm osho’s work. (the example of Islam and terrorism comes to mind.) It seems the problem arises when you say that your understanding is wrong and mine is right.

  13. Kranti says:

    Thanks for clarifying that point Shahriar.. I dint mean to hurt you..

    Think i have answered your questions in earlier post about possible solutions.. Ofcourse it is just my view…

    You have brough a freshness to this forum because you started with a thread which is full of passion and words from the heart.. Thanks for that..

  14. Shahriar says:

    You are welcome. : )

  15. Kranti says:

    Anand

    Do you really believe that anyone from Jayesh’s offices or Pune resort is reading these so-called ’sannyas news’?

    Thats what Sw Keerthi told us..

  16. Anand says:

    Kranti:
    1) Osho Publishing is handled via Osho International London (Jayesh, Pramod, Yogendra etc). since twenty years. Pretty good and dedicated job even with some sannyasins complaining about compilations.
    2) Osho Meditation Centers: which points are you referring/objecting to? It is my understanding, that Osho Meditation Centers have a lot of freedom, do not need to offer White Robe etc. I have signed the contract, but do not have it with me right now. Otherwise there are also Osho Information Centers. Everything loosely ‘guided’ from Vatayana.
    Whoever is in charge of some parts of Osho’s work in the world, will always encounter criticism from other sannyasins. That has always been so, and nothing has changed.

  17. Shahriar says:

    Osho always said that fanaticism is created when people assert with absolute conviction that they are right and the other is wrong. I am not sure if that is what the pune resort is doing, because then it might hard to get them to listen and understand the point of view of sannyasins who think differently than they do.

  18. Shahriar says:

    One question that comes to my mind is whether Osho’s words can be preserved with purity if there is a copyright on them or if there is no copyright? Which one is more effective in preserving the purity of his words? Which one allows people more access to his words? Doesn’t copyright expire 70 years after the authors death?

    Can anyone answer this question?

  19. Kranti says:

    Thats my points also Anand .. in all these forums..

    You and me are in the same page on both points.. Not only me atleast i know two others in this forum Anthony and Alok

    Only because people have issues with ‘ I want my share pf cake in everything ‘ we wanted to take a unbiased view rather than assuming everything is alright and no need for any change etc..

    Now the problem also got aggravated because of the result of legal battle..

  20. Kranti says:

    Anand

    Since the paper to be signed is majot point of arguements here Can you please guide us on what is there in that agreement and why there is such a reluctance to sign that agreement..It will help us all to understand better…

    We have also quoted the trademark/ copyrights points in Osho.com website which seems to give good freedom to centers…

  21. Kranti says:

    Shahriar..you say.

    ” Osho always said that fanaticism is created when people assert with absolute conviction that they are right and the other is wrong. I am not sure if that is what the pune resort is doing ”

    Thats where the differences of opinions are..Pune thinks they are NOT doing such a thing..The other side thinks thats what they ARE doing.. How to bridge both..

  22. Kranti says:

    Shahriar ..you say ..

    ” One question that comes to my mind is whether Osho’s words can be preserved with purity if there is a copyright on them or if there is no copyright? Which one is more effective in preserving the purity of his words? Which one allows people more access to his words? Doesn’t copyright expire 70 years after the authors death? ”

    Millions of times i asked this question in this forum..But no effective answer so far..

    Every one just says …

    ” No to Trademark..” ..Yes to ‘ Free Osho ‘

    But why?…nO answers so far

    Hope someone answers you now..

    To me it is the responsibility of Sw Atul to answer this question to all sannyasins..

  23. Kranti says:

    Anthony ….

    Lot of good posts from Shahriar & Anand…Come back..

  24. Shahriar says:

    I think a quote from Osho is fitting here:

    “BE A JUST BROTHER… With all those who are of your age, be just, don’t be unfair. Don’t exploit, because if you exploit you create a tension around yourself. Create friendship around yourself, because growth will be easier in a friendly atmosphere. ”

    I think this applies in this case. On whichever side we are one, I think we need to look at this with fairness. The Sunnis and the Shias do not look at each other with fairness, they do not bother to consider that each individual will have his/her own interpretation and understanding of Mohammed or in this case Osho.

  25. shantam Prem says:

    Shahriar,
    You have a interesting biography and just 18 years of age.
    Naturally, if Osho would have been in the body, you would have taken the flight to Pune, the way thousands did during the last 30 years of last century.
    In real life situations, many of the theoretical ideas get shaken and many take deeper roots. Books are very alluring, just put them in water, and they are paper pulp!
    I am sure, you have cried also because of the situation in your home country. ” Neda” must have taken a space in your heart too.
    What is the problem in Iran. People are intelligent, well educated, not less than any other democratic country, why the Mullahs and the supreme leaders don’t move with the changing time.
    There must be some public support that regimes go on clinging to power. Sure, any people believe specially in the proviences, without them there will be anarchy, they are the custodians of holy values, everybody else is a left winger influenced by the hallowness of western values. And you think Mullahs give only in the religions which are centuries old.
    There must be human psychology behind this all, which is much deeper, the lust to control may be has more deeper roots in human mind than all the spiritual books put together…

    Osho may not be in the body, but His working place is still throbbing with life. Please, find some time to visit there as a study tour, and discuss your beautiful thoughts with the people in authority there.
    May be you find real gold in them, may be you realise all that glitters are not gold.!

    But i will really say, Shahriar, you have a very good command on writing and on thoughts. May Life keep this shine, even when you are in the middle age and more.
    with love
    shantam

    PS- Please check facebook profle of “Prem Nazila”. She is Iranian living in the states. This girl has spend many years in Pune, where she was studying and visiting Osho.
    In her cry for freedom for her people, one can see the , love, fire and compassion of Osho.

  26. Kranti says:

    The pots from shantam is from his hearts Shahriar

    ” Osho may not be in the body, but His working place is still throbbing with life. Please, find some time to visit there as a study tour, and discuss your beautiful thoughts with the people in authority there.
    May be you find real gold in them, may be you realise all that glitters are not gold.!

    But i will really say, Shahriar, you have a very good command on writing and on thoughts. May Life keep this shine, even when you are in the middle age and more.
    with love
    shantam ”

    It has Love , Guidance as a fellow sannyasin and Acceptance of what you are ..bundled into everything..

  27. Kranti says:

    Read as ” ..bundled into One ”

  28. shantam Prem says:

    Shariar,
    The paragraph of yours is very much to the point-

    The managers in Pune have their own understanding of Osho’s work, but it seems that they do not want to allow other people to have their understanding. As far as I see, there are going to be differences of opinion, and I think they should be welcomed as long as no one does anything that can harm osho’s work. (the example of Islam and terrorism comes to mind.) It seems the problem arises when you say that your understanding is wrong and mine is right.

    What solutions you think are needed to make the movement really alive, changing yet being supported by the grass root people, those thousands and millions of seekers or citizens who make the country or institutions proud and strong.
    I am sure you have read too a quotation from your new president, delivered before elections,” America is great not because of its politicians but because of its people and its constitution.”

    Anand has written-

    Whoever is in charge of some parts of Osho’s work in the world, will always encounter criticism from other sannyasins. That has always been so, and nothing has changed.

    It is not about Osho’s work. In general it is like this. who so ever will be in the helm of affairs will always face criticism.
    That is why newspapers always do public opinion,but in Banana repubilc.

    Mr. Anand, can you give the rough estimate, how many percent sannyasins support the present structure of policies.
    And don’t BULLSHIT that Osho also never cared about Public opinion.

  29. Kranti says:

    I am keenly awaiting Anand to clarify that point on what is in that agreement which is objectionable / not objectionable . It will be a good post based on facts …

  30. Shahriar says:

    Well, the Iranian revolution was a people’s revolution, but the problem becomes when the people change, then the government will also have to change with the people. Something the mullahs are having a hard time doing. Although they do have a power base inside Iran mostly of the poor and the pious.

    Wilhelm reich says somewhere that fascism arises because people are sexually suppressed, this seems to be fitting in the case inside Iran.

    and the situation in Iran is sad, I think if the people in Iran could stop harming one another, they could work to create a better world for themselves, but I am not sure that the people there have this creative insight.

    Love

  31. Kranti says:

    Shahriar

    More or less situations are same everywhere..

    there had been a great effort in the recent past In India tp push the country back into fundamentalism.. Firtunately it has not happened..so far

    We can understand conutries moving from fundamentalism to democracy..but not vice versa.. India is still running some amount of risk on that front..purely because of the political idealogy of one big party..

    Somtimes countiries are spoiled because of there are no better choices infront of people

    Hope we do have bter choices for Osho Sannyasins..

  32. Kranti says:

    ‘ And don’t BULLSHIT that Osho also never cared about Public opinion.”

    Thats right… Osho could do things as an enlightened master which the organization can not think of.. Thats the reason why we are discussing all this stuff in this forum..to understand different viewpoints

  33. shantam Prem says:

    Wilhelm reich says somewhere that fascism arises because people are sexually suppressed, this seems to be fitting in the case inside Iran..

    it can be very true. with this criteria.. neighbour countries of Iran are living in even deeper tunnels. One can see in the western world. The people here have thrown away the suppression, and Democratic institutions have taken place and people protect these institutions, against the arrogance and might of the powerful. At least most of the time, there is a system of check and balance.

    For us, the case scenario is the world of Osho. The people around Osho are supposed to be more sexually liberated than the folks in Europe etc.

    I will say without doubt that India is, may be the only country with immense religious tolerance and anybody can open their spiritual shop without any regulation or license, it is happening for centuries.
    With the passage of time, specially after the departure of the Charismatic leader, only those could survive, who have taken a certain kind of democratic structure of their management. Without this it is difficult to keep the attention and respect and financial support of followers/believers/Friends/disciples/sannyasins/devotees as so many new and better versions are taking birth all the time. None in the spiritual history of India has ever uttered that I am the ONLY ONE.

    Keeping in mind these facts, some where, it is a good sign that “Two party system” is taking shape around Osho.
    Best will be that the issues arising in future are resolved with love and meditation, understanding and dialogue and not through legal or emotional violence.

  34. Neo Vivek says:

    Issues are resolved when there is an internal shift in attitudes. I do not believe there is any other way to permanently resolve issues…
    Now, an internal shift/ metamorphosis usually is triggered when something dramatic happens…

  35. Alok john says:

    Anand wrote :…
    “2) Osho Meditation Centers: which points are you referring/objecting to? It is my understanding, that Osho Meditation Centers have a lot of freedom, do not need to offer White Robe etc. I have signed the contract, but do not have it with me right now. Otherwise there are also Osho Information Centers. Everything loosely ‘guided’ from Vatayana.”

    But I think there are certain things you cannot do in an Osho Meditation Center, like have other “enlightened teachers” there. It is loosely guided but there are limits as there were when Osho was in the body.

  36. Anand says:

    That is why they are called ‘OSHO MEDITATION CENTERS and not ‘Other Enlightened Centers’. If other people manage to arrive in the beyond, they should be able to start in full gratitude to Osho, start their own….and not suck on
    the Osho sannyasin world.

  37. Anand says:

    That is why they are called ‘OSHO MEDITATION CENTERS and not ‘Other Enlightened Centers’. If other people manage to arrive in the beyond, they should be able to start in full gratitude to Osho, start their own….and not suck on
    the Osho sannyasin world…..

  38. Alok john says:

    As for Iran, I thought Ahmadinejad probably won and the unrest was partially engineered by the West. The majority of Iranians are poor and are scared of loosing out if the country adopts western values such as greed is good, winner takes all, survivor of the fittest, Nazism in liberal clothes.

  39. Alok john says:

    I am not disagreeing with you, Anand.

  40. Anand says:

    It is loosely guided but there are limits as there were when Osho was in the body.
    >>>>they are loosely guided. You sign an agreement and then you are pretty much on your own following Osho’s vision. But tell me one case, where an ‘Enlightened teacher’ was able to teach in one of Osho’s meditation centers, while Osho was in the body.

  41. Anand says:

    Kranti- I am traveling right now for a few more weeks and have no access to my files, but when I signed the agreement I could not detect any issues inhibiting in any way the work t run a centre. Obviously there were others who thought different, like the Osho Boulder Centre, who did not sign the agreement and some of those folks (Suvarna, Jamie) got banned from visiting Osho Meditation Resort in Pune. Not sure, if Dhanyam fits in there as well, who also got banned.
    Maybe he can shine some light into this, since he reads these news.

  42. Alok john says:

    Shantam wrote : “One can see in the western world. The people here have thrown away the suppression, and Democratic institutions have taken place and people protect these institutions, against the arrogance and might of the powerful. At least most of the time, there is a system of check and balance.”

    Bit doubtful about this. In the West he rich and the powerful control the mass media, which are very sophisticated organs of propaganda. Most people work their guts off and do not have the time to access information other than through the mass media. The control is sophisticated and subtle.

  43. Alok john says:

    Anand, you mean people were banned for not signing the agreement and running “Osho Boulder Centre”, not the “Osho Boulder Meditation Centre.”?

    It is strange because in England we have Osho Leela, which is really a Veeresh/Humaniversity centre with Osho meditations few and far between. I imagine they have signed nothing or if they did, it is not enforced. Maybe Osho had a soft spot for Veeresh, and left instructions to let him do what he wants?

  44. Shahriar says:

    It seems that the freedom available in the West is relative. There is more freedom in the west than in Iran but there is less freedom than there could be potentially.

    The west is an indirect dictatorship, where the people with money have the power. (Something interesting related to this is a movement called Technocracy which began in the 1930s and is still alive, but has been silently censored out of the media.)

    Their symbol is an anti-clockwise yin-yang, Which I disagree with for esoteric reasons. I think it should be clockwise to symbolize their creative intent.

  45. Alok john says:

    Greg Dyke was head of the BBC in the Iraq war. He was on £400,000 a year. The Government got rid of Dyke because the BBC said, obviously truthfully, that the Government had exaggerated the military risk posed by Saddam in the run up to the war. The new head of the BBC is on £700,000 per year; basically being paid to tow Government lines.

  46. Kranti says:

    Thanks Anand.. It is good to know there is someone who sees the agreement in a positive manner..even if one person agrees then there is something ok with these agreements

    So i presume when a center / individual does not want to sign the agreement there must be direct reasons for it like.. they dont want to be categorized as an osho meditation center / they want offer something else etc… although they use the Osho name for obivious reasons..

    Dhayam should be able to tell us what exactly the negative points one sees in that agreement…

  47. Kranti says:

    ” It seems that the freedom available in the West is relative.”

    Osho always said the difference is superficial..nothing much infact..

    Even when it comes to Sex He reffered to some scientific study which said Men think about Sex every 2 minutes or something and Women do so every 3 minutes .. He used this to point out that there is no difference between Men & women..But obviously these studies have taken place in western countries and west also is not that free ..

  48. Anand says:

    Alok John- not sure what the exact title is, you may be right with ‘Osho Meditation Center Boulder” and I do not know if the Veeresh related centers did sign the agreement. Veeresh has been in Pune the last few years.

  49. Kranti says:

    Just referring back to the title of the thread.. it is even more a big question whether there is something called sannyas exists now .. All we are going to see is Individuals..No movements or Collectivities..

    Look at the Neo Advaitha scene… No sannyas , No methods , No esoteric stuff.. just directly pointing out what is the True Reality..

    Osho talked about break through in conciousness…Mey be we are standing on the verge of that break through…

  50. Shahriar says:

    Well, I think the movement has something in it which may not be there if people move totally alone.

    Sannyas is a symbol, and moving together the journey can be enjoyed, we can delight in each others presence. That might not be available without sannyas. How are seekers of truth going to come together, without some magnetic center?

    When Osho was in the body, that center was Osho. Now Osho has left his body but this does not mean that sannyas is no more meaningful. Sannyas seems to be a bond bringing us together, otherwise in the world, surrounded by people who do not care about consciousness, love, and the heights and depths hidden inside of us, how can we receive support from each other? The love of other sannyasins can be a great nourishment and knowing that we are not alone in our search for truth can be a great help.

    Other movements might miss this, because they are all moving alone. None of them come together in the way that we sannyasins come together. (I am not formally a sannyasin but it would be a little strange to say “you sannyasins”)

    As an example Eckhart Tolle seems to be enlightened but the people with him have not taken a jump, the people (at least in my opinion) around him do not go any deeper than reading his books (although I am sure there are people who do go deeper.)

    When we recognize another sannyasin, something clicks inside of us which would not otherwise click when we meet people in the outside world. When we gather together, a deeper bond is connecting us to each other than when people in the outside world gather. That is something that would be missed if there is no sannyas movement anymore.

  51. Shahriar says:

    Well, I think the movement has something in it which may not be there if people move totally alone.

    Sannyas is a symbol, and moving together the journey can be enjoyed, we can delight in each others presence. That might not be available without sannyas. How are seekers of truth going to come together, without some magnetic center?

    When Osho was in the body, that center was Osho. Now Osho has left his body but this does not mean that sannyas is no more meaningful. Sannyas seems to be a bond bringing us together, otherwise in the world, surrounded by people who do not care about consciousness, love, and the heights and depths hidden inside of us, how can we receive support from each other? The love of other sannyasins can be a great nourishment and knowing that we are not alone in our search for truth can be a great help.

    Other movements might miss this, because they are all moving alone. None of them come together in the way that we sannyasins come together. (I am not formally a sannyasin but it would be a little strange to say “you sannyasins”)

    As an example Eckhart Tolle seems to be enlightened but the people with him have not taken a jump, the people (at least in my opinion) around him do not go any deeper than reading his books (although I am sure there are people who do go deeper.)

    When we recognize another sannyasin, something clicks inside of us which would not otherwise click when we meet people in the outside world. When we gather together, a deeper bond is connecting us to each other than when people in the outside world gather. That is something that would be missed if there is no sannyas movement anymore.

  52. Kranti says:

    Agree..there is collective energy for any movement leave alone sannyas.. But who knows even that is changing..

    I do see lot of people who go to these Neo advaitha teachers ‘ waking up ‘ going by what they say.. no direct experiences for me..So we can not say someone who goes to a ET or Adya or Gangaji dont make the jump..

    If someone in this forum has better info they can talk about it..

    As far as Osho Neo Sannyas is concerned thats what people in this forum interested are … If this Neo-sannyas movement needs to be sustained it is better to have a CENTER… as long as it lasts …Osho did create an ORGANISM for this purpose.. All the conflicts now are on whether this Organism is still an Organism or it has become an Organization…

  53. Neo Vivek says:

    Shahriar

    You have based all your arguments on the point ” Organizations do not have a heart, soul, felling”

    you also say, “Osho cannot be contained in organizations, because organizations do not have a soul. ”

    Osho is the soul of the organization… whether it is the pune resort or other meditation centres….
    and sure, osho cannot be contained anywhere.. osho thrives there, cause osho thrives in the being of the people there …

    The problem arises when, in people, as osho says, mind becomes the master instead of servant. This seems to have happened to a certain degree at some places.

    Organizations sure do have a life, heart and soul.
    Invoke your sensitivity and on a quiet day, you might be able to hear the organization breathing.

  54. Shahriar says:

    I disagree. Organizations cannot have a heart or a soul. My reason is this:

    Organizations have only one instinct: survival. They do not know anything about right means or wrong means. Organizations are machines that have been created with only the instinct of self-preservation in them. Thus if they are threatened, they respond with violence or if the are weak, they try to change to preserve themselves. Thus If the Truth of Jesus has to be changed to preserve the organization, or if the truth of Jesus is against the interests of the organization and its survival, that truth will be perverted or even thrown away.

    Organizations have no higher values the way individuals have them. Organizations do not know anything more than the survival instinct. Truth is beyond them, love is beyond them, humanity is also beyond them.

    Organizations do not have life the way we have life, because we have higher possibilities open to us which are not open to organizations, and there is no guarantee that those leading an organization have any concern for truth, or love, or even humanity.

  55. Kranti says:

    Shahriar..with due respect to your views you need to get involved with all these Neo sannyasins if you have not done alreday.. they do have this openess towards celebrating life and a sense of freedom.. but nothing more than that…closer to enlightenment and all. They are like any other seekers ….At least as far as i know… Do a reality check..

    May be Anthonys and Aloks will be able to throw some clarity for you..

  56. Shahriar says:

    A center will be difficult to maintain, for the reason that who can be a center other than an enlightened master?

    and as far as Sannyas is concerned, we can exist without a center. It seems to me that our love for Osho and our common bond of meditation and search for truth can bring us together. So if meditation, our love for Osho and our longing for truth can be considered the center, then there can be no difficulty in us being together.

    As far as a certain organization is concerned, the people at the pune resort have shown no willingness to understand those who think differently than them and who understand Osho in a way that does not reflect their understanding, so why should we expect that others will be different?

  57. Kranti says:

    Shahriar

    You do have point … Organizations cannot have a heart or a soul

    But that is right assuming current organizational model..end of the day it is just a word.. What is important is theway an organization functions.. If it has heart then we call it Organism

    There is book written by one of the Osho lovers & CEO called.. Arun Wakhlu from Pune.. the book name is
    Managing from the Heart: Unfolidng spirit within organizations and people.

    We will see more and more that kind of efforts to convert organizations into organisms.. the stress these organizations are putting on individuals and other resources are going to turn the clock.. Soon it will become a survival need for organizations to become an organism..even it means having less profit / less growth etc..

  58. Shahriar says:

    “but nothing more than that…closer to enlightenment and all. They are like any other seekers ….At least as far as i know… Do a reality check..”

    kranti, I understood your post, but what did you mean by the “closer to enlightenment and reality check”?

  59. Kranti says:

    ” and as far as Sannyas is concerned, we can exist without a center. It seems to me that our love for Osho and our common bond of meditation and search for truth can bring us together”

    Why cant you exeist even on a broader scale just as a SEEKER.. no linked to this master or that master.. In that way you can have bigger ‘ No Center ‘

  60. shantam Prem says:

    Anand // Aug 13, 2009 at 1:41 pm
    That is why they are called ‘OSHO MEDITATION CENTERS and not ‘Other Enlightened Centers’. If other people manage to arrive in the beyond, they should be able to start in full gratitude to Osho, start their own….and not suck on
    the Osho sannyasin world.

    This is very true. Enlighenment is a far away thing, it is a question of common sense too.
    We are not living in middle ages where nobody has a right to claim about his/her, “This is IT” experience, but a certain decency requires that they create their own product line.
    Same way, it was a situaion is ashram, group leadres and session givers were not supposed to give private sessions in Pune though on the basis of good will generated they were doing great business in the west.
    Somehow, there shops have also gone closed in main land Europe, left over is being sold in the new open market in Russia.
    without these Russian travelers..resort will be even more deserted,

  61. Shahriar says:

    Yes, I think it will be important for organizations to gain a heart, especially since so many people today are concerned with transformation and something more than just profit. Although this is no ultimate guarantee, because there are many organizations who are still ruthless.

  62. Shahriar says:

    shantam Prem, do you really consider enlightenment to be a far away thing? It seems to me that enlightenment is everyone’s potential, but so many people are concerned with all that is trivial that they can never devote themselves to the search for enlightenment. (If it really is a search, see lao tzu and non-seeking)

  63. Kranti says:

    I meant people certainly dance , celebrate and have sense of freedom around Osho.. Thats is very beautifull.. But waking up from this maya , enlightenment and all is still a different ball game..In that sense there is no difference between Osho sannyasins and other seekers..We can not say Osho sannyasins have better chance of getting enlighted than other seekers because of sannyas movement

    Dont get me wrong.. On any day i will hang around with Osho sannaysins because they are more beautiful people..

    When i said do a reality check…i asked you to mingle more freely with all these Osho sannyasins.. spend time in Pune… I had completely different view of people who lived closer to Osho ..i took for granted they will be more like Osho ..as i started interacting with all the people i realized there is nothing like that except for the beautiful qualities mentioned above..

    This is the same thing Shantam mentioned in that paper pulp post..

    Relax..take it easy.. you are yet to meet Andreas & Oshobobs..

  64. Kranti says:

    ” because there are many organizations who are still ruthless.”

    Good..you seem to have understood something at 18 which i took 14 years of corporate life to understand.. Great going…Keep the shine going..

  65. Kranti says:

    ” shantam Prem, do you really consider enlightenment to be a far away thing ”

    Nope.. If you listen to Adya or Mooji.. You will get up everyday expecting the ‘ ME ‘ will not be there …Along with reading Osho listen to these guys also.. you have a better shot..

  66. Shahriar says:

    Well, I was thinking about sannyasins who are not hypocrites or deceiving themselves. (christian hypocrites, self-deceivers comes to mind, along with others groups)

    I know that even when osho was in the body there was conflict and friction between sannyasins, and that is going to remain until they receive enlightenment.

    but certainly Osho sannyasins do have more of a free spirit, and they celebrate more than people in the outside world. If people in the outside world saw osho sannyasins dancing, singing, celebrating they would either:

    condemn them if they had missed their own life and could not tolerate anyone else’s joy and blissfullness
    consider them crazy just to rationalize and justify why they are not dancing, singing, celebrating also
    or any number of responses which people show in these situations.

    Most probably the young and the courageous and those who are still ALIVE would take the jump into sannyas and the world would call them hypnotized.

    No doubt the vested interests would tremble.

  67. shantam Prem says:

    Kranti, as you mentioned above in context of my words-

    It has Love , Guidance as a fellow sannyasin and Acceptance of what you are ..bundled into one…

    It is my firm belief that in this non formal way, Osho wants us to share His vision, generation after generation, without feeling superior or with any kind of hidden motivation.
    In this process, if someone asks to preserve few mile stones of Osho…so that people can get a bit of glimpse of that era in its honesty, these people should not be ridiculed as, dead man walking worshipers.

    The purpose of the commune was also exactly the same, what Buddha meant by “Sangha”. Chain of seekers supporting each other on the process, as how long Master can remain in the body.
    Three children of Michale jackson are doing it much better than us. May be they are still children with their intact innocence.
    When He took away, Orange clothes and Mala, the emphasis was that now it needs even more awareness and love to be recognised as my sannyasin. People will see your sannyas through you and not through outer symbols, kind of words,are still imprinted in my brain, spoken heard more than 20 years ago.
    I think at some time He was even saying that ” My people are my real books.” THE PEOPLE will be my temples, my synagogues…..
    Was it just a poetry to win few clappings?

  68. Shahriar says:

    I don’t think so because as far as I know when Osho was speaking there was pin-drop silence, there was no audience standing up applauding his words every 5 minutes, and the people he was speaking to were not an “audience” but beloved disciples.

  69. Shahriar says:

    A few posts ago I wrote about eckhart tolle and how his readers/followers have not take a jump. I think that was only partly true. It is/was certainly much more difficult to be with osho, and it needed courage but I can’t say that there aren’t people who are eckhat tolle’s disciples and who do not have the same devotion to truth found in many rajneeshees. what do you guys think?

  70. Kranti says:

    I am with you Shantam..totally on your points above…

    Thats is one of the reason i keep posting these messages ..to see a Pune which will keep the spirit of Osho Vision alive as long as it is pssoible..

  71. Shahriar says:

    If you guys go to whitehouse.gov and watch a town hall of Obama talking to the american people and you look into the eyes of the audience you can see the utter boredom and misery in which they are living. Their life is not a celebration, it’s not juicy, they just seem to be carrying on without any meaning. Their life is not a song, it is not a dance, it is not a flowering.

    Perhaps some of those existentialists who commited suicide were right when they said that the reason some people do not commit suicide is because they do not have the courage to do it or the intelligence, otherwise for what are the people living for? Do you see any joy, any love, any celebration in their life? Any prayerfullness and gratitude towards existence for giving them this beautiful opportunity to live?

  72. Kranti says:

    ” If people in the outside world saw osho sannyasins dancing, singing, celebrating they would either: condemn them ”

    You reminded me of a small incident i had in Pune few years back.. It was my last day during that trip and i was sitting there one afternoon ..about get out to catch a train

    A very serious looking sannyasin somewhat trying to be like Vivekananda sat next to me watching few young sannyasins dancing and going crazy… then he turned and asked me.. ( with arrogance )

    ” Do you think these people will get enlightened? ”

    I didn’t answer him ..just smiled and got up..and came out..

  73. Shahriar says:

    Truth is disturbing to the sleep of the masses.

    Therefore it is crucified or worshipped. (I am not talking about the devotion felt by a disciple towards his/her master when I say worship.)

  74. Kranti says:

    Forget about Obama..

    In India political meetings and listening to a politician speaking used to be the mjor passtime / excitment for people 20 years back.. people gave that much importance..

    Today no one cares.. Politicians buy people with money to come and sit ..just to show his speech is listened to.. who really cares..

    No one derives identity from attaching himself to politicians..

    World has evolved..to a certain extent.. But to reach a stage where majority of people to dance , celebrate and flower it will take its time..you never know

    In one of the discourses Adya was telling.. If human beings are not at the service life .. If they dont evolve quickly … life will say a good buy and erase them..

  75. Kranti says:

    ‘ life will say a good bye and erase them..”

  76. Shahriar says:

    There is a saying a rose is a rose is a rose,
    it should be said a politician is a politician is a politician.

    I agree that we should simply forget about Obama and all the other politicians but the point I was trying to make was in what utter boredom and misery people in the outside world are living.

  77. Shahriar says:

    I agree that life will say goodbye and erase them, I didn’t realize how true this statement is until it suddenly hit me.

  78. Kranti says:

    It is good to share all these about sannyas in general and how other movements are contributing etc rather than fighting all the time regarding copyrights …

    I miss that guy Andreas for his powerful insights on these kind of topics..

    Andreas.. Please come back …I trust you will like the topic of this particular thread..

  79. Shahriar says:

    The struggle between those who are working for the evolution of consciouness on the earth and those who are interested in preserving the vested interests.

  80. Kranti says:

    ” in what utter boredom and misery people in the outside world are living.”

    Totally agree.. and out of boredom people create problems which never exist.. I am trying to handle few of those in my office right now..

    They not only live in boredom and misery ..they create hell for others also.. I am not saying i am a saint.. But Osho has certainly placed us on a better track..

  81. Shahriar says:

    Although as far as I can see, awakening is not a luxury anymore especially seeing the situation the world is in.

  82. Shahriar says:

    yes he has (placed us on a better track.)

  83. Kranti says:

    ” Although as far as I can see, awakening is not a luxury anymore ”

    Beautifull.. Thats what i said earlier.. be it organizations / individuals it is going to be a survival issue to move towards the center..

    Problem is when there is so much demand for ‘ awakening products ‘ there is always huge supply of them.. mostly OTC drugs in western world and bit more complex products in East ..

  84. Kranti says:

    Thanks you Shahriar..It has been a beautiful day sharing all these posts.. I wind up office in 10 / 20 minutes..will post tomorrow..

  85. Shahriar says:

    I enjoyed this Kranti.

    Love

  86. Dilruba says:

    Anand … ” Osho meditation centre” and not ”Other Enlightened Centres ” lam not for/against this … let me jus share what l experianced in 2007 nov in ” Osho Nisarga ” .. l had a feeling to meet /speak to Maa Neelam … l called her and as soon as we started speaking … she was so full of love and she does have this beautiful quality where one jus melts in her love for Osho … l went to see her and landed up staying in Osho Nisarga for a couple of days .. it is really the most beautiful Osho Centre … but during my stay … l felt some thing missing … in the sense there was physical / geographical beauty … also devotional love for the Master …. but the essense was missing .. we had a great time chatting … meditating n celebrating !
    One thing that really hit me was … there are {new / young } seekers who are contributing to their centre … who have not seen Osho ..
    and Neelam Maa & Priya would go on n on about the golden days when Osho was in Body in the Ranch … and so on … during one such conversation … Neelam Maa said ” those days wiill never come back” to which sannyassin girl said ” Maa that means l will never get a chance to experiance the golden period ” … l said to that girl ” Osho is not a body in that sense ” but the conversation came to a standstill … now tell me dear fellow Travellers .. what can one make of this ?
    also Osho Sanyassins who by chance do get Enlightened if they want to share with their fellow travellers in their Centres .. it would be beautiful … if Maa Neelam / any other centre .. does have visits from Enlightened Osho sanyassins like Sw. Poornaanand / Sw .Rajneesh / Sw . Bhaskar / Sw Chaitanya Bharti .. it will make a difference
    l did hear that Sw . Poornaanand visited Osho Nisarga ..
    lam sure if all Osho Centres welcome / open to this attitude .. it will create a new Energy for all seekers !

  87. Dilruba says:

    Shariar .. Welcome Aboard !

  88. Dilruba says:

    Shariar !!!

  89. Dilruba says:

    l do tend miss the ‘ H ‘ … SHAHRIAR !!!!!!!!!

  90. Kranti says:

    I didnt know about Sw. Poornaanand ..

    I googled and found a ” His Holiness Sri Sri Sri Poornananda Swami ” …Dont tell me he is a Osho disciple..

  91. Kranti says:

    But i agree with you..awakened beings should add to the energy of Buddhafields.. at least the awakened people who are from the same mevement ..

    But i also think it becomes a ‘Administrative’ problem to have a enlightened guy around..

  92. Kranti says:

    Just for fun check out that guys website..

    I came across this

    ” Therefore, even today, the foremost spiritual activity of the ashram happens to be the worship of the guru padukas every morning ”

    Can you believe.. the foremost spiritual activity of the ashram is worshipping shoes of the guru..

    Thank God..We had a Osho..

  93. Shahriar says:

    Hello again kranti

    Yes, let’s wait until pune bans an enlightened person. That will be a sight.

  94. Shahriar says:

    One thing that really hit me was … there are {new / young } seekers who are contributing to their centre … who have not seen Osho ..
    and Neelam Maa & Priya would go on n on about the golden days when Osho was in Body in the Ranch … and so on … during one such conversation … Neelam Maa said ” those days wiill never come back” to which sannyassin girl said ” Maa that means l will never get a chance to experiance the golden period ” … l said to that girl ” Osho is not a body in that sense ” but the conversation came to a standstill … now tell me dear fellow Travellers .. what can one make of this ?

    Well, didn’t buddha’s sannyasins take something like a vow that when they became enlightened they would do their utmost to awaken other sannyasins who are still on the path?

  95. shantam Prem says:

    Shahriar,
    when you mention Ma Neelam and Priya, and the conversation, did this take place in the States or you have visited them in Dharamshala?

  96. Shahriar says:

    Actually that was diruba’s experience. I was just commenting on the conversation. I guess I forgot quotation marks.

  97. Dilruba says:

    Shahriar … l feel its not a question of a vow maybe …it is a simple response .. of sharing with fellow travellers …

  98. Dhanyam says:

    Anand, I also loved Shahria’s article. The next issue of our Viha Connection (Sept/Oct) is already being printed, but I will bring it up at the next meeting of our editorial board.

    Shahria, please email me your mailing address to oshoviha@oshoviha.org so that I can send you a copy of our magazine. You have lots of great insights and understanding, especially for an 18-year-old!

    One other point to share with the forum: There are Resort Osho Centers, Delhi Osho Centers, Arun Osho Centers, independent Osho Centers, etc. There is no strict organization that rules all the Osho centers. They are independent and free.

    Anand, I signed the paper (Letter of Understanding) and am still banned. We are a free, independent Osho center, doing the same work for the past 23 years. Our connection is with Osho, not with the Resort.

    Kranti, one objection I have is that they call it “A Letter of Understanding,” but in reality they consider it a legally binding document that they will use against you. The lawyers found many problems with the letter of understanding and said that it is legally faulty and not valid. OIF was quite unhappy about this.

  99. Amrito says:

    Hi Shahriar, I also loved your beautiful contribution to this forum. You disprove the misnomer that newcommers to Osho (irrelevant of age) can “get it” and not be freaked out by the “master” phenomenon.

    Osho connects to individuals directly and only that individual can know the relationship. Its there: vibrant, alive, mysterious and full of love.. Its up, its down…its a zen kick, a zen slap and sometimes a zen kiss..

    But both ways I’ve seen so called disciples who saw Osho in the body try to “guide” people into their relationships with Osho. Pune “guides” (a great euphamism) through a contractual agreement where they ban everything from pics of Osho before 1981, to maroon/white robes outside Pune and sannyas inititiation with malas…break a rule and you lock yourself out of paradise.

    I’ve seen the other type of who are against Pune and feel Osho’s been lost unto the winds. He’s dead; ashes. “forget him—find a living master or just do meditation and be your own master”. Heard it from these people whom have nothing to share from their years with the master, not even a meditative space around them.

    So Dilruba, its sad to hear that these ghost stories of the “good old days” are being depressed upon to those who feel they “missed” osho. Infact in ” I leave you my dream”, Osho is to have said “Don’t speak of me in the past tense”.

    And the two places where Osho’s isn’t just a past tense are Pune and Tapoban. Strangely Tapoban may look strange for its robes, malas and devotion, but there’s no feeling of “missing” osho there at all.

    And in Pune atleast they live up to what they’ve set up to do: introduce Osho as an existential reality (according to them). So people go there, do Osho meditations, listen to Osho, read Osho and feel Osho without the *past*.

    It makes sense when Pune doesn’;t give a mala during sannyas celebrations because thats what they’ve stood for. In Tapoban, Sw. Arun says its hypocritical to give sannyas with a mala if the person giving sannyas isn’t wearing one.

    And so it was funny to see Ma Dharm Jyoti here giving sannyas without wearing her own. But each to their own. (She is a nice lady tho).

    Love,
    Amrito

  100. Anand says:

    The issue of ‘banning’ people from the Osho resort is something quite strange to me. It feels people like Jayesh use this as an instrument of total misuse of their power. Anytime they do not agree with someone, the ban them from Osho Resort (see Neelam, Keerti, Hari Deva, Sarjano, Dhanyam, Priya, Tathagat, Priya, Suvarna, Jamie and many more). These are all Osho Lovers!
    Jayesh is the president of Osho International and has in his place Dr. Amrito to oversee the Osho Pune Resort. Both are responsible of this misuse of power and I think the first step to the often mentioned ‘Free Osho’ movement should be to unite all banned sannyasins and take legal steps to get the banning issue resolved. If the Osho resort is just a ‘resort’, the have done no harm to the place. It is plain power politics.

  101. shantam Prem says:

    Yes Anand, you are taking the dirt from under the carpet.
    This issue needs to be resolved, for once and ever, otherwise anybody at the hot seat can use this tool of extra judiciary killings.
    With one man power structure, intelligentsia simply go exile, it leaves sour taste on the being and it repulse human sensibilities.
    Place like Poona, People go for their refinement, not just for the aesthetic buildings. I was not banned from the place, i was watching everything like a mute spectator, taking notes in my heart and in the process, your being start nudging you.
    That is the price of awakening, you simply see, not just the nice tits but the cruelty on the roads too.

    PS-Please don’t give the logic that banning was done during Osho’s time too. When 5 peole are banned out of 10 thousand and when 100 people are banned out of two thousand, there is a hell of difference and the causes were also different. We don’t need Taliban kind of justifications,

  102. Kranti says:

    Amrito

    ” And in Pune atleast they live up to what they’ve set up to do: introduce Osho as an existential reality (according to them). So people go there, do Osho meditations, listen to Osho, read Osho and feel Osho without the *past*. ”

    This what i feel. They are doing Ok.. But they have to give little more space for heart & sort out these bannong issues as otherwise the resort will become one dimensional in due course of time..

  103. Dilruba says:

    Amrito ” Osho connects to individual directly ……. sometimes a Zen kiss .. ” Beautiful

    Anand … we have to resolve a lot of things but we can start with resolving the legal ones … and l guess .. the only way is to drop all cases against each other … and the concerned party / sanyassins { except Dhyanam }are not showing any signs of that … at least not responding here on this forum … about taking any step / steps to resolve … it feels lam / we are going on n on about this … and these guys …. might be planning another court case … probably ..

  104. Kranti says:

    ” it feels lam / we are going on n on about this … and these guys …. might be planning another court case … probably ..”

    You are right Dilruba.. while we didnt have major delusions about what we are doing , we did have some hope.. But the actual players may have different ideas..

  105. shantam Prem says:

    (according to them)….. is the catch 22.

    Two three people also have their fundamental right to preach and practice their interpretation, their version, but not imposing on the other 97,98.
    The life around Osho is for His 100% people, miniority opinion can have their schools, with the blessings of all.

    Do you really believe that anyone from Jayesh’s offices or Pune resort is reading
    these so-called ’sannyas news’?

    This also shows the lack luster attitude of the people around Jayesh, people are more bothered about their physical and sexual survival rather than VISION of the first citizen that is and should remain always OSHO, at least at His garden of human flowering.
    So people there at global connection, read Times of India and International herald Tribune and in the remaining time, chatting!

    Whether Jayesh reads this or not, my simple suggestion to him is please, have few friends who can dare to oppose you. You will treasure their company. You will see in your life time, the place again full with the Banyan trees rather than pots of Bonsai!

  106. Kranti says:

    The other options is to join the guy His Holiness Sri Sri Sri Poornananda Swami … We can remove the intelligence and keep it at his feet…

  107. Dilruba says:

    l started using the computer only maybe 8/10 months ago … and first started reading Sannyas news in May 2009 .. and in my exploration did come across Vatayana’s letter {dated a year ago} to a sanyassin … l feel there are sanyassins from Jayesh’s team definately keeping a watch on whats happening here … its another matter whether they report the Truth to Jayesh… {unless Jayesh is reading and enjoying the whole game } becos there is a possibility of them {sanyassins reporting } of being sacked … unless ofcoarse these guys still dont know the Truth … and are there with him only for their own survival .. which happens to be their truth ! l am wondering !

  108. Shahriar says:

    It seems to me that there is a lot of difference between fulfilling a certain responsibility and function and having power. When you have a responsibility or a function, you are accountable, you can’t just do anything you want. But with power, you do whatever you want and no one can question you.

    It doesn’t seem to me that the people in Pune are purely fulfilling certain responsibilites or functions, they seem to have something more than that.

  109. Shahriar says:

    I should probably rephrase “the seem to have something more than that” to “they do have something more than that.”

  110. Dilruba says:

    ”lt doesn’t seem to me … they seem to have something more than that .”

    Shahriar …. that more than that is not somehow enough at the moment .. l have to add … no offence meant to anyone ..

  111. shantam Prem says:

    Still with all my love and respect for Jayesh and Amrito, i wish them to continue being part and parcel of the game, President and vice President of Osho movement. Jsut they don’t need to play Doctor Doctor all the time.
    Their contribution is immense, they are the big stars but the contribution of the Bamboo trees and ordinary sannyasins is also immense.
    It was an act of courage of those few hundred thousands who dare to take sannyas inspite of the over all negative propaganda around Him.

    When the replacement Indian sannyaisn woman was asked about the declining nos. of old sannyasins, she replied, ” Those people have gone old. They live in their memory. (We) need young blood, with Osho vision is always forward.”
    It is an extreme stupidity and arrogance of the power. To insult one’s own fellow travelers in this way is absurd.

    Below i quote the excerpts from an interview with a very talented Actor Sanjay Suri, who lost his father years ago in the hands of Militancy and goes back to kashmir after 18 years for a film shooting. The guy is not a sannyasin, but feel the fragrance of the feelings in the context we are concerned about-

    What did you notice as the most dramatic change in the Valley? And what had remained the same?

    Visually, Kashmir looked like a beautiful widow who had lost her colour, vibrancy and smile, and had an expression of irreversible loss. So much has happened there in the last 20 years that every structure has a story to tell. Twenty years is a long time. After the mass migration of Hindus in the early 1990s, the Valley was left with just one culture and faith. To me, a beautiful garden needs to have all kinds of flowers and not just one kind. That is one change which is so evident and sad. To me, nothing is the same.

    I don’t know if I was happy to go back after 18 years or not. Maybe I should have let it remain in my memories, a lost chapter in our lives. Or was I scared that I might not like it now because everything is in the past? The associations are in my mind and all those people don’t live there anymore. It’s not the same. That playground had no players I knew.

    Maybe a catharsis was waiting to happen, but is it that simple?
    I believe and know that nature moves ahead and one should not look back, but then that “back” is where our identity comes from. The past is important because it has prepared you for the future. And visiting that past is like trying to find your footprints in the cold, breezy desert sand.
    I was hoping I would find my way back only to return stronger and happier, but it’s not that simple.

  112. shantam Prem says:

    correction-
    declining nos. of long time sannyasins, she replied, ” Those people have gone old.”

  113. Alok john says:

    Amrito wrote “they ban everything from pics of Osho before 1981, to maroon/white robes outside Pune and sannyas inititiation with malas…break a rule and you lock yourself out of paradise.”

    First this is an exaggeration; you are not going to be banned for wearing your maroon robe in the street.

    The advice not to wear robes in the street was given by Osho when he was alive.

    The place was full of rules and regulations when he was alive. Osho said things like “if you surrender to me, you surrender to my sangha, ie commune.” He made it clear that his commune was not democratic and could never be democratic. It was His commune.

  114. Kranti says:

    Thanks Alok for pointing out that

    Amrit …. I have a question for you..

    Anand was saying he didnt find anything objectionable in that agreement.. You have a different view..

    How come such contradictory views about an agreement which at the end of the day is just a piece of paper with few conditions thrown in..

  115. Dilruba says:

    This means democracy never existed in Osho’s physical presense and now there is Democracy ? and if democracy is all we wanted why did we come to Osho ?or the current situation is not going to change for the better for Osho’s Sannyas World {which includes past.. present ..future}? l keep on wondering … cant help but wonder ..

  116. shantam Prem says:

    “if you surrender to me, you surrender to my sangha, ie commune.” He made it clear that his commune was not democratic and could never be democratic. It was His commune.

    If you surrunder to me, you surrender to my Sangha, i.e commune.
    First of all we are looking for Sangha in the missing persons list in the newspaper.

    Sagha means the will of the present disciples, specially when no particular successor is there…
    21 person team called inner circle, was the representative of this collective will,
    And than as it happens in the stories, some one got too big for his size, and shouted,” Follow me or go anywhere”, thanks God, guns were not used!

  117. Shahriar says:

    Yes he did say that if you surrender to me, you surrender to my commune but I do not think that he said you surrender to unconsciousness.

    Perhaps what he meant when he said that his commune could never be democratic was that there is no way to decide democratically (or dictatorically for that matter) what truth is. Either you know or you don’t know. Another thing he could have meant is that there is no way to decide democratically (and dictatorically…which probably is not a word) who is enlightened or not, and who is a real master or not.

  118. shantam Prem says:

    Shahriar,

    If you can get the copy of,” I leave you my Dream”, it will be a nice experience and also it is a loose documentary of His vision and how people will take care of His work, once He is gone, gone forever to the other shore…
    As a technocrat, if you find this any where on the net, please let the people know.
    As you are showing tremendous interest on the path chalked out by Osho, every single mile stone points to the mysterious!
    And more than thirty five years of spoken words recorded, thousands of Photos and videos…and the end conlcusion…it is beyond senses!

  119. Shahriar says:

    Agreed shantam prem

    “As a technocrat, if you find this any where on the net, please let the people know.”

    If I find what on the net, and which people? can you clarify this?

    love.

  120. Anand says:

    Some things I noticed in my recent visits to Osho Pune Meditation Resort: while smoking and second hand smoking has been ‘banned’ from most indoor places,
    the resort has been on the opposite trail: smoking is sanctioned everywhere.;
    Plaza Cafe, Mirdad, Pool area (Zorba), Omar Khayan Garden. For a spiritual resort quite an attitude! For non-smokers a pain and health hazard.
    Food: the worldwide bio/ organic health wave (even in India) has also been neglected. White flour, cheap sugared jam, no bio products, but high prices as if…. I have no problem with the entrance fee, but sessions fees are higher then in the US, probably based on the Euro market.
    The smoking issue comes from the top down, since Dr. Amrito smokes.
    If this is part of the larger non-religion philosophy, they succeed.
    Even non-spiritual resorts have higher standards worldwide now.

  121. Kranti says:

    Shahriar,

    Think ‘ ,” I leave you my Dream” is just that.. Nothing more.. I dont think there is any plan and all along with that.. Even this mush is not Oshotic.. I wish he never said those words.. It looks like he had unfinished agenda..

  122. Kranti says:

    Downside of Keeping the place as a Heart Oriented Ashram is something we discussed.. What about the downside of keeping the place like a Resort ? Indue course wont it just become just a ‘ Resort ‘.. People will start comparing the place with other resorts and start demading services along those lines..

    If you see smoking everywhere & Drinks are flowing ..What next ?

    Now we have Free Osho.. Tomorrow some Resort owner will provide Osho meditations inside resort as part of his rejuvenation package .. then it will very difficult to differentiate Osho’s buddhafield from other resorts ..

    Instead of this why not have the meditation facilities and resort related facilities separately as disconnected centers.. Not sure whether we do have required real estate though..

  123. Anand says:

    Great vision Kranti. That will probably happen soon. What stops a resort manager to offer Osho meditations? Nothing really- a small investment of buying some CDs. I forgot to mention, that a female friend mentioned today, that this year for the first time she noticed really drunk guys inside of the resort in Pune, which made her feel uncomfortable……
    These news of course travel around the globe and soon you will get UK charter flights coming to Pune for the evening dance parties in the Osho Resort. That happened to Goa and ruined that place.

  124. Amrito says:

    Hi Alok,

    In reference to my *exaggeration* (which it is not) I have not made up just to let you know. Its found directly on the Osho Center Guidelines at Osho.com.

    You said:

    “First this is an exaggeration; you are not going to be banned for wearing your maroon robe in the street.”

    Now when did I say I wanted to wear my maroon robe on the street? I was talking about wearing it within the Meditation Center, which is a No-No from the OIMR. The Osho pics with him without a hat and in a black beard are also no-no’s. And, mala initiation is a big NO NO (all found on the center guidelines).

    My name used to by on Osho Canada Experience on Osho.com and I havent directly contacted them either recently, but they have removed it now (soo maybe they do monitor these boards?). They wanted me to sign the LOU which is basically agreeing to their guidelines.

    Plus they are against inviting people like Sw. Arun and others non-affiliated with Pune. I know ZorbaStudio in Dallas got a phone call to stop inviting them directly from Pune.

    But I dont know if I’m banned, hope not. I definately want to meditate there!

  125. Kranti says:

    ” The Osho pics with him without a hat and in a black beard are also no-no’s..”

    This really ridiculous rule.. It makes me sad..

  126. Kranti says:

    ” really drunk guys inside of the resort in Pune “….What hope we have ?

  127. Kranti says:

    Anand.. i am slightly off track but it is ok.. What is this UK charter flights stuff?

  128. Anthony Thompson says:

    Amrito. A bit of information in relation to your last post. osho asked that the maroon robe should not be used in meditation centers , only in pune.

    Osho personally selected with Anando the pictures that he wanted of him. He did not want the pictures without a hat ( i do not know why, perhaps he thought he looked more handsome with it).

    Osho said that the mala should only be used at home in meditation, never in another circumstance.
    All these guidelines were set up for meditation centers before he died.
    You can have a look at the videos of his discourses before he died and see if anyone is wearing a mala.

    sw. arun is making out his own version of it all.
    You always needed permission to have a meditation center and you had to sign a letter of agreement.

  129. Alok john says:

    Amrito, I did not know those centre guidelines were on the web.

    You are right that they say no one should wear robes except in Pune. I am sure no one would be banned for wearing a robe meditating in an Osho centre in the West or for wearing their mala in a London street.

    What can I say? I don’t know everything. My belief is that they are just trying to follow what Osho actually said. For example the guidelines say about malas (about 1989)

    “Osho sends a message to the Academy of Initiation that there is no need to wear malas any more. Sannyas is about going inwards and nothing to do with the outer.
    Some people are disturbed, so it is taken in to Osho again and his response, passed on again to the Academy is: “If you must wear your mala, then at home in meditation only.”

    I don’t believe Pune is lying when they say Osho said this. I choose to ignore this “rule” because my experience is that wearing the mala does aid meditation.

    Anand …..smoking, drinking in the resort….

    Osho was always against distinctions between the mundane and the spiritual. His approach was that bad habits like drinking and smoking will only drop permanently through awareness and meditation. That is one of the reasons why the resort allows smoking and drinking, so that people can experiment with their “bad habits” as they go deeper into meditation.

  130. shantam Prem says:

    After going through the above posts, i remember a saying in Hindi, very much used in the area Osho was born, “Garib ki joru sabh ki bhabi” roughly it means, ” “Wife of poor is the sister in laws of all”, it means everybody can flirt with her, can tease her, can joke with her because her husband is poor, the powerless.”
    One of the most vocal masters of our time, who was riping apart each and every institution, Marriage or family, countries or politics or ancient masters, has become so powerless that every ambitious sorry realised disciple feels free to sell his version.
    This is may be the laws of Karma. Professor’s children are faking degrees!

    Anthony, i think it is not so often that i agree with your points. Your above post is without doubt very factual, and i have never spoken with Osho personally, like most of us, but it is my firm view that He was not like an elephant, with two sets of teeth, one for the public view another for chewing.
    Therefore His discourses are the most authentic testament and also the messages which Anando or Amrito or sometime Neelam used to read on His behalf, when He was sick.

    The attitude of defiance grow, because the other prominent players see that the main organisation is also diluting and molding His vision as per their convenience.
    So it is a window breaking sale. Buy one, get two free and staling is also allowed!

    and Anthony this doubt is for your attention-
    One thing i have noted time and again, Anthony wants people to get the view from Osho’s words when other than resort management people are concerned.
    For everything else he relies upon His words and for the resort, “theirs”. Some partiality one can feel.

  131. shantam Prem says:

    Shahriar,
    “As a technocrat, if you find this any where on the net, please let the people know.”

    If I find what on the net, and which people? can you clarify this?

    People means His people and naturally through this thread of yours.

    Why i say let people know, because someone in New york sniffs this historic video, and within a week, service provider takes it away, Copyright is just an excuse, material is explosive.

  132. shantam Prem says:

    Name of the video is
    “I leave you my dream.”-OSHO

  133. Kranti says:

    Alok you say ” That is one of the reasons why the resort allows smoking and drinking, ”

    Not sure whether tha is the right approach because it hurts other people..

    People who have smoking / drinking habits can come , meditate at the center and go back to see whether their habits are dropping… But i dont think they need to test it at the center itself..

    Again it is difficult to go by What Osho said as we have seen that in this forum so many times..

  134. Kranti says:

    ” My belief is that they are just trying to follow what Osho actually said ”

    The more you see these kind of facts whether it suits current scenario or not, at least it becomes clear that Pune is trying its best to adhere to what Osho said..

    But other people can also quote Osho for number of things..

    Man! He put people in a eternal dilema..Real Zen Master..

  135. Anthony Thompson says:

    Shantam my dear. I have never hide the fact that epistemologically I feel closer to the resort , than delhi. that does not mean i do not have criticism… and you have read them.
    there is no pure Osho´s vision…. because he is not here to clarify anything… If you rely on words… you can have hundreds of visions. so the only possibility is interpretation… as always with dead masters.
    regarding double set of teeth… sorry but for no reason he needed a personal dentist!
    he had more than double.
    One hint: i intervewed laxmi´s brother who told me that he used to bring luggage with hash for osho to bless them in the early days. so that they would not be found at the airport. He new what was in those bags…because he told him. The money of course was for the ashram.

  136. Shahriar says:

    thanks shantam prem.

  137. Shahriar says:

    There is one on Google videos, osho’s last moments and where the sannyasins are taking his body to the burning ghats. Is that the one you are talking about?

  138. shantam Prem says:

    “you can have hundreds of visions. so the only possibility is interpretation… as always with dead masters.”

    Interptation of the words is one thing, watching the moving images is a testamony in itself. This advantage Osho has got, therefore , the closest interptation through His moving images will become the flavour of the Ashram in the long run.

    You may be closer to resort than to Delhi. i feel closer to the reality shown in His videos and the phase, i have seen with my eyes. Delhi is just 125 kms. from my home city, but seems as far as in Latin America.

    One of the original titel of Osho book is, ” Main kehta Ankhan Dekhi” it means, “i say, what i have seen”
    and in His last days, the sub titel was also given, ” “Kano suni jhooth sabh, ankon dekhi sach” i.e. hear say is fabrication; all lie.Turth is what one sees…

    Future of Osho’s work and personal growth lies in those hands who will take the effort to watch, observe, feel, see, hear but with a pinch of salt and skepticism. Osho love the people who have learnt also,
    The art of doubting.

  139. Alok john says:

    Shahriar, “I Leave you My Dream” was about a 20 min video produced by the resort. It includes Dr Amrito’s accounts of Osho’s death made the day after he died. I am sure it has “I Leave you My Dream” in the credits.

    Kranti, when I visited just before his death there was a bar in the ashram, but only a small area where you could smoke. But he allowed the bar! It was his ashram!

    Kranti wrote : “Man! He put people in a eternal dilema..Real Zen Master..”
    By George, he’s got it! (hope you know this phrase)

  140. Dilruba says:

    Anthony … l understand that how ever free lam there is a limitation to what l know … and feel this is applicable to all … but a Master / any Master is beyond generalisation .. even if he is dead physically … and there is no acception to this rule !

    ”One hint: i interviewed laxmi ‘s bro ….. The money was for the ashram ,” listen dear that must be a fact … no doubt about it .. but the Truth is Osho’ s any doing was a non -doing .. this is no justification for that but a Truth only a Disciple and to some extent {a rare possibility}..MAYBE his lover {unofficial disciple} will know … and a Master can have as many teeth or no teeth all for that matter !

    And the Vision is a Vision is a Vision …. there will never be a fullstop to that Vision .. becos a Masters Vision is a moving picture not still photogaphy in that sense !

    again no arrogance meant to anyone

  141. Dilruba says:

    missed the ”to ” in between teeth & all

  142. shantam Prem says:

    Yes, Shahriar, 9.45 minutes of “I leave you my dream” are on You tube or Google video. remaining 10.30 seconds are equally important and reference for the policy matters, very very important.

    ….” Then the death of the master is the most liberated experience one can have” and than one of the most loved original sannyas song, Universe is singing a song, universe is dancing along. universe is singing on a day like this….

    When one sees the video or any another video of Osho, one has the longing to be part of that milieu.
    This place called Buddha hall was not a set of some Hollywood/Bollywood movie.
    To sit in that auditorium, before that podium could have given the taste to the future people, a glimpse..a kick, a push…rendezvous with the roots.

    I am sure, very much sure, Podium will be reconstructed again. It needs only wood and plaster.
    May be Anthony can tell, what else?

  143. shantam Prem says:

    Remaining 10.30 minutes of ” I leave you my dream.”

  144. Anthony Thompson says:

    my god shantam. so much obsession with the podium.
    you know what, write to my mail: athompsonphd@hotmail.com
    and send me your email address in germany… I will send you a present you would love.
    seriously… write to me.
    anthony

  145. Dilruba says:

    correction : no teeth at all not ” to ”

  146. Dhanyam says:

    There are two Resorts in California that I know of where Osho meditations are already being offered. Probably others that I don’t know.

    I just received an order for 15 Dynamic Meditation CDs from an ashram on the East Coast. Seeds have been planted, and trees are growing.

  147. Shahriar says:

    “I just received an order for 15 Dynamic Meditation CDs from an ashram on the East Coast. Seeds have been planted, and trees are growing.”

    Maybe something like how Buddhists “took over” China? Although I still think that what the Pune resort is doing is wrong, especially their deleting the remaining 10.30 minutes of OSho’s death.

  148. Dilruba says:

    Dhanyam ..a Sanyassin friend {Darshana} is conducting Dynamic on Santa Monica Beach .. every sunday mornings .. and its open to all …this shows one does not need permissions /a centre / approvals from OIF to start sharing meditation … these guys / girls are jus spontaniously sharing … lam loving this !

  149. Amrito says:

    Hi Anthony,

    You say:

    “Osho personally selected with Anando the pictures that he wanted of him. He did not want the pictures without a hat ( i do not know why, perhaps he thought he looked more handsome with it).”

    This “Osho says” thing to some one privately is highly contestable. Comman, now its a matter of belief on a particular group of people who “represent” him. Isn’t that what priests are for?

    Anando his medium…my god!! Comman, it doesn’t sum up Osho’s life at all—leaving some one to be his last medium…

    And than picking pictures, and giving an outline of how the resort should be and how centers should run and bla bla bla…You even admit yourself that you dont like how people in the Osho world always say “osho said(privately)” this and that to make their point.

    During the interviews with the press I remember someone asked him when he’s comming to Canada and Osho simply said ” I don’t plan for anything, I act out of the spontaneous moment”. He said he had lived his entire life without any plans and let existence take care of the next moment. The interviewer asked how Osho would respond if he started jumping up and down like a monkey and slap Osho on his face. Again, with the fiercest eyes where you can see even the interviwer getting nervous, Osho said “Even I dont know how I will respond”. (about Canada, he said he can even come tommorow).

    So to *believe* Osho made *plans* for everything is in my opinion bullshit. First the premise is wrong, because to believe is to substitute my experience for a concept. And, this is the way religions have been harmful down the ages.

    I was surprised to know my close cousin converted into Islam (from Hindu). He started sending qurans to all of us and said he wants to save us from the hellfire because Hindus dont worship one god. He stopped listening to music because its against the quran. He *belived* in everything the quran had to say and all the interpretations from Sheikhs and whatnot. He simply believed that these people were authorities on Muhammed because they were so close to the man when they wrote the book….

    I hope a sad day doesn’t come when some Osho sannyasin in the future is convincing another person that bowing down is a great SIN and pictures of OSHO are IDOL worship. How does he know—because some disciples *close* to Osho said he told them privately…

    Everything in Pune seems planned, blue-printed, strategic and commerical. Their newest affilate is Zen Spa and Resort in Norway—Osho meditations with No Osho and a big price ticket. http://www.zenresort.no/

  150. Anand says:

    Amrito: Zen Resort in Norway looks absolute wonderful. A dream of a place.
    And there are sannyasins involved, which shows what wonderful qualities
    sannyasins can add to this planet. Why are you so grumpy about that?
    And it is not at all affiliated to the Pune resort, where did you get that information? And for a resort with a standard like that you need the normal prices to recoup investments. And there are a lot of people out there looking for places like this, a meditative resort with high quality products and if they also offer meditations< i am definitely a customer….I wish there were more of those.
    Just what Kranti suggested, if regular resorts feature Osho meditations, sesions by sannyasins etc.- what is th difference to Osho Pune Resort?
    In my opinion the difference is the undercurrent of Osho’s energy and thousands meditating and this underlying current is what we are coming for,
    and this is still the Osho energy. Still people drive to Bodhgaya 2500 years later…for that.
    By the way there are the so-called Osho Akashic Records, which clarify all these points of what Osho had recorded during the last few months of his life….

  151. shantam Prem says:

    Anthony, thnaks for the present in advance. I know.. You want to send me the Osho chair or the small miniature podium…!
    what so ever, it is nice to have the private e mail address of the friends…

    Obsession is too big a word. This i can say for OSHO in total, not for podium, not for His books, CD`s, copy rights, meditation centres etc.
    Podium is just a symbolic gesture to tell these people that with the dominating attitude you are allintaing the fellow sannyasins.
    It is not the work, you are supposed to do. You are going in the forbidden zones.

    Again i remind people, that when Tathagat was impeached from His duties, there was a full gathering in Buddha Hall, things were first brought in the notice of the gathering and than implemanted.
    Osho changed His name three four times, it was always in the open gathering.
    Every single decision was brought forward for the endrosement of the fellow travelers.
    THIS IS RESPECT FOR THE PEOPLE.

    If His people are treated as Sheeps, for sure their must be sheeps too, they are also nice…but Osho has pumped the dignity and the pride in the human soul, with this attitude of immense love and co operation one can go forward.

  152. shantam Prem says:

    “In my opinion the difference is the undercurrent of Osho’s energy and thousands meditating and this underlying current is what we are coming for,
    and this is still the Osho energy. Still people drive to Bodhgaya 2500 years later…for that.”

    Anand, This is the point. If people are still coming to Pune it is 100% because of this….
    Do the authorites are bringing forward the place with this USP (unique selling point)?

  153. Kranti says:

    In my opinion the difference is the undercurrent of Osho’s energy and thousands meditating and this underlying current is what we are coming for,
    and this is still the Osho energy. Still people drive to Bodhgaya 2500 years later…for that.”

    Anand, This is the point. If people are still coming to Pune it is 100% because of this….
    Do the authorites are bringing forward the place with this USP (unique selling point)?

    Ditto!!!!!

    But i also will be happy to see other resorts offering Osho meditations..The world desperately needs Dynamic meditation.. Every human being is walking with so much suppression..

  154. Kranti says:

    On the one hand we say Pune doesnt like worshipping and the dont allow Osho photos and on other hand this story of Osho choosing specific photos to be published for media… Highly contradictory..

    May be at some point we need to put up our hand and say ” We dont care a damn what Osho said in private..We will go by what he said openely / publicily ..In his speeches , In his viedos… although it has its contardictions..”

    Think this is what Shantam meant..

  155. Kranti says:

    Of late i have started doubting whether all these disciples close to Osho are jointly doing all these things..Whether all the view points are floated around with specific inetntions..

  156. Kranti says:

    ‘ By George, he’s got it! ”

    Alok.. i didnt know the expression.. I googled and understood it is used as an expression of surprise ..So i understand now.. I got it..

  157. Kranti says:

    Anand you say ” In my opinion the difference is the undercurrent of Osho’s energy and thousands meditating and this underlying current is what we are coming for,”

    Thats exactly what i have been trying to express in this forum..while i am all for spreading Osho vision in so many ways as possible i would like to see Pune as The Buudhafield created by Osho by keeping the energy Intact… It will not harm Osho Vision in anyway..For that too happen all these conflicts need to be sorted out..

  158. Kranti says:

    Just continuing from my previous post…

    All the other people ….OFI , Sw Keerthi , Neelam and everyone concerned should fight to sterngthen the Buddha field not dilute the energy by asking for things like Free Osho , and all kind of stuff.. That is not contradictory to running their own centers..

    The battle is not well diected.. …

    Ofcourse we can argue that was not possible and thats why we see court cases and all.. But i dont think it is the right arguement..

    They have something which the whole world does not have… Exeperience of Living with a Buddha , Meditativeness and Receptivity…If those qualities can not make them come together then what qualities in the world we are looking at for bringing people together…

  159. amrito says:

    Hey Anand, even I found it beautiful and would love to go there! I can see how I looked “grumpy” about it but my point was that are these the new types of centers that Pune will only approve of??

    There affiliation is that I can see Anando is doing a workshop there next month, hence there is a positive affiliation with the resort (given Anando’s position as a high-profile OIF insider).

    Now, the question will be if an equally beautiful structure was created with Osho’s photos (before 1981), maroon robes—-would Pune object?

    I guess its an ideological difference in the end..

  160. Kranti says:

    Keeping aside the two extereme positions of 1) Everything is alright as it is & 2) All going wrong..Osho Vision is being corrupted

    Do we all agree on the following

    1. We love to see Osho vision spread as wide and as deep as possible.. including meditations being offered in resorts & beaches

    2. The Buddhafield at Pune needs to preserved more as a energyfield with love and respect to all sannyasins & Osho lovers ..even it means doing some changes to current functioning…to accomodate Heart orientated people..

  161. Dhanyam says:

    Shahria, “I Leave You My Dream” is available as a 30-minute DVD.

    Dilruba, I sent an email to Darshana about Santa MOnica beach Sunday meditations, but didn’t get any reply from here.

    In 23 years we have never asked OIF for permission for our meditations.

    Anthony, in regards to the mala, I never heard or read that Osho considered his mala to be an ornament. You are a valuable source of insights and information.

    Kranti, I wanted to bring one important, serious point to your attention. Referring to OIF, you say, “they edit because they want to see Osho unfolding.” My point is that behind the curtain of secrecy that they have created, how do you know that they don’t give the Osho books to the publishers and allow them to edit Osho in order to increase sales? Isn’t that a possibility? And if this is how they use their copyrights, what can be done? You know, business is business.

  162. Anthony Thompson says:

    Amrito. You are shooting yourself in your legs. Osho never announced anything regarding the practical side of his work directly. It was always through Laxmi, the press office directed by Krishna prem, sheela, anando, amrito, garimo, neelam.

    So if you doubt the messages he conveyed through them. You have nothing. … absolutely nothing regarding the guidelines that were given all the time. From how he should be addressed by sannyasins to what should be built and where.
    The only person Osho denounced was sheela. and that too was in many cases just a strategy not to take the blame.
    He said the book on ” Rajneeshism· , which was burnt at the ranch, was a compilation made by sheela and had nothing to do with him.
    Prem isabel saw Osho himself selecting the pictures for the book.
    This book was m,ade beacuse Osho was applying for a resident visa a ” religious leader”. he needed a ” bible” so to speak. That will detail the guidelines of his religion.Even in a discourse at the ranch he was very proud to say that a judge in Oregon has allowed a sannyasin to the oath on the book of rajneeshism.
    Only when they got a court case saying there was no separation between state and church, which unconstitutional, that got rid of the book. Osho referred to sannyasina as “rajneeshees”.

    Actually osho vised and selected all the pictures that were ever on the cover of the books. if you do not believe ask any of the early editors of Osho books.

    Sorry Amrito, but I do not think you have enough information to make a judgment on this subject and you just have an idealized idea of Osho and his work.

    Osho was a man, and as such he lied, twisted facts, accomodated ideas to fit his own, etc.
    Regarding Anando as medium. Even she does not know what that means.
    it was not something new. Teertha and vedant were his oficial mediums in the seventies. he also had a group of girls for the energy darshans: Kaveesho, aseema, maitri, shunyo and others were part of “the mediums”.

    Sespite of what he said in public, Osho was a planner. Ask anyone who lived in his house and he will tell you. and in those plans things were done his way… No other ways.

    Amrito wake up. To be enlightened does not mean to be god. He was very human…. as you and I with pride and desires too.
    Take the time to interview the people who lived close to him and you´ll see.

    shantam. Write to me I am not joking.

  163. Anthony Thompson says:

    Dhanyam. You must have not read Osho enough. he said that about the mala in public.

  164. Kranti says:

    Dhanyam you say ” My point is that behind the curtain of secrecy that they have created, how do you know that they don’t give the Osho books to the publishers and allow them to edit Osho in order to increase sales? ”

    It is shocker for me… I never thought from this angle.. If thats is the case then it is really really bad.. I dont know what more to say…

    Anyway Thanks for giving me one more angle to look at things..

  165. Anand says:

    Amrito: I think it is good to publish only established ‘facts’. Anand is doing groups there, snce she is doing groups in many countries all the time. She is not a
    ‘high-profile OIF insider’…she left the IC, Pune and her positions years ago and lives in Italy with Shunyo. As far as I know this is an independent operation.
    Things like this would need massives capital to start and remember 6-7 years ago there was a plan to start something like this in Italy and Anando was scouting places until Jayesh dropped the project.
    You do not need permission from OIF to offer Osho Meditations in any hotel.

  166. Anand says:

    Dhanyam- I think when Osho International came back to the States, the name of Osho was still very bad and it was not easy to find publishers for him or even mainstream publishers. So I believe that from a publisher point of view it made sense to start re-publishing Osho in the US with some compilation books with themes and see how these are doing. It is just a matter of costs/ investment…
    Once these started to sell reasonable well the main stream publishers like St. Martins Press started also to print full Osho books. You must know better the details, selling Osho books over there….

  167. Dilruba says:

    Dhanyam … l jus felt like sharing .. how Osho’s meditation is being shared without any hassles … by people who want to share … l had got a message from her on FB & also saw the photos of that happening .. and how seeds are being sowed ..

    love Dilruba

  168. Kranti says:

    This seems to be easily the best thread we have had interms of participation and quality of the discussions.. Keep the energy going…

    Specifically thanks to Dhanyam also for contributing frequently & Shariar for showing what Osho can do to a youngster’ sharpness & aliveness…apart from other regular participants

    Love you all… Kranti.

  169. Kranti says:

    I am in Tears..

  170. Shahriar says:

    What Osho has to offer is not available anywhere else in a young person’s world.

    Most of the people that young people, like myself, face are just servants to the society, no rebelliousness, no intelligence, no fire, no courage, no joy, no bliss, nothing like love, so it’s natural that the young people will develop a discontent with the society and when they see such an opportunity, they will “drop out” and take the jump into sannyas.

    And of course, the old and those who are part of the “respectable” society will feel fear and they will try to crucify the truth, just so that they do not have to think, or encounter challenges.

    But the truth of jesus cannot be crucified so easily, the truth of socrates cannot be killed just by poisoning his body, mansur-al-hallaj will not disappear just by murdering him, neither will Osho disappear.

    As long as even one human being is alive on this earth, these people will be remembered. And the enemies of truth, where are they today? Where are the people who crucified jesus, who poisoned socrates, who murdered mansur-al-hallaj?

    “truth is victorious, untruth never.” Whoever said this can be my father and my teacher.

  171. Shahriar says:

    dancing, singing, crying, laughing, on our way to the temple of the divine.

    …I love you all…

  172. Shahriar says:

    read “I love you all too”

  173. Dilruba says:

    lt feels as though we are on Table .. all together … and enjoying a cuppa of whatever … and jus talking /discussing / debating / agreeing / disagreeing .. lam loving this .. feels like Ashram .. without having to take any time constraint / tests / sticker / robe / mala .. jus at ones finger tip .. this very moment is a golden moment !

  174. Shahriar says:

    Yes! Wholeheartedly YES!

  175. Kranti says:

    ” lt feels as though we are on Table .. all together … and enjoying a cuppa of whatever ”

    Very soon we will be actually sitting across the table , enjoying and hugging each other in Pune..Why Not?

  176. Dilruba says:

    Insha All of Us !

  177. Kranti says:

    Just for a change , if interested see UG going crazy during his last days.. Have never seen anything like this

    The guy arguing with him is Mahesh Bhatt


    The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

  178. Dhanyam says:

    Anand,

    After the Ranch, in the 80s, sales for Rajneesh books were slow.

    About 1998 St. Martin’s Press started publishing and selling Osho books without a problem. The first book was “Meditation: The First & Last Freedom.” St. Martin’s has a good distribution/marketing set-up. and sales have been great.

    My point is that if an ego-mind, conditioned person or publisher is allowed to edit Osho, then the result is not Osho, except in name. The publishers tend to edit out criticisms against people, countries, religions, jokes, etc. It is like taking out the heart, soul, and juice, and selling the bones.

  179. Vishakha says:

    Hi Shahriar,

    I loved your post. Never read anything beautiful like this one in this forum. I could tell you have the best understanding of Osho and his vision and it is coming from your own experience. Made my heart so happy to read your post. I could see my Master’s presence in your words. It is enlightening !

    Love
    Vishakha

  180. Anand says:

    Dhanyam, I understand, but that point is an assumption, isn’t it? The diting could have hapened through OIF related sannyasins like Sarito….

  181. Anand says:

    Sharhriar- it is very enlightening to see that Osho’s spark can jump over also to the rebels of the young generation. With the Native Americans the older generation are the Elders, available with advise for the young ones. I feel us old sannyasins can be of some help (see Osho group leaders) to the next generation of sannyasins, we can provide information about our time spent with Osho and it is great to see, that Osho’s vision unfolds into the future…..

  182. Kranti says:

    To me the unique contribution of Osho is He ensured that we go dancing to awakening.. So whether anything like awakening and all happens or not you certainly enjoy the journey and there are no regrets.. whreas with most of other teachings a sort of seriousness creeps in and after some time frustration and bitterness will be the result.. Osho made us live life fully..

    The UG video i posted is typical example.. You can also see Mahesh Bhatts frustration and arguements..He didnt utilize the opportunity he had with Osho..

  183. Kranti says:

    To me the unique contribution of Osho is He ensured that we go dancing to awakening.. So whether anything like awakening and all happens or not you certainly enjoy the journey and there are no regrets.. whreas with most of other teachings a sort of seriousness creeps in and after some time frustration and bitterness will be the result.. Osho made us live life fully..

    The UG video i posted is typical example.. You can also see Mahesh Bhatts frustration and arguements..He didnt utilize the opportunity he had with Osho..Both seems to have played ego games with each other..

  184. Kranti says:

    After posting above message i went and tried to cook some food for me… Suddently my own words hit me deeply.. How Osho made us live , love , dance and celebrate the journey without making awareness as a goal and miss out on life..

    Thank you my Master…Bowing down..tears flowing down the cheeks…..

  185. Shahriar says:

    Thanks Vishakha.

    “Sharhriar- it is very enlightening to see that Osho’s spark can jump over also to the rebels of the young generation. With the Native Americans the older generation are the Elders, available with advise for the young ones. I feel us old sannyasins can be of some help (see Osho group leaders) to the next generation of sannyasins, we can provide information about our time spent with Osho and it is great to see, that Osho’s vision unfolds into the future…..”

    I agree with you Anand. I don’t have anything to add to what you just said so I will just leave it at that.

    Love

  186. Shahriar says:

    Delete the 2 justs

  187. Dhanyam says:

    Anand,

    Sarito left OIF some years ago and moved to Texas. I have no idea who is editing Osho. It could be a sannyasin, but from a business point-of-view the publishers must be involved.

  188. Dhyan Varish says:

    Beloved Buddhas , I just finished again Oshos Discourses on the Heart Sutra (The Prajnaparamita Hridayam Sutra of Gautama The Buddha).

    “O , what an awakening ! What satori I What samadhi ! This is awakening , the buddhahood…………What ecstasy – Alleluia !”

    My recommendation , listen to it , or read the book and see where Osho is pointing to. See it – realize it , it is that easy to realize it , it is within.

    Osho saith thyself : “You are free this very moment ! I declare you enlightened in this very moment. But you don’t trust me. You say , that’s right Osho, but just tell us how to become enlightened.” (page 46)

    Yes , we don’t see where Osho is ponting to , we don’t realize it , we don’t trust in our Beloved Osho.

    ” See it – realize it , right now !”

    Osho talks obout meditation in chapter seven page 177 – Full Emtiness – and about Sannyas in chapter ten page 257 – Sannyas : Entering The Sream –

    ” Never create any rigidity around you – never become definable ” – Osho -

    How much time it needs to go from here to here ?

    With love Dhyan Varish , Interlaken Switzerland.

  189. Anand says:

    Dhanyam- I think there is nothing wrong with the Osho book compilations. They are a perfect way of introduction to Osho.
    And if the readers are interested, they have hundreds of other titles to go deeper.
    Like ‘Antipasti’ before the meal.
    The publisher and OIF are probably working out certain ‘themes’ and somebody will do the editing. So far no harm done.
    And for the real seekers the original first editions are available vie ebay or Osho Viha.

  190. Anand says:

    In regard to ebay I found this today:
    ‘Osho slippers’ ; someone is selling Osho related shoes! – and
    ‘Vintage India Rare Photo Religious Saint Osho RAJNEESH’…..

  191. Dhanyam says:

    Anand,

    I agree with you a out the compilation books. I would also like to see the original books on the Net for those who want to read the unedited books. Here are Viha we don’t have enough first-edition books. If and when you find a first edition on ebay or anywhere else, the price is high.

  192. Alok john says:

    Dhanyam, as far as I know you can access more than 200 Osho books in the online library at osho.com for a few dollars per week.

    Do you really think there is a problem with compilations? I mean I have never heard anyone say “I have got this dilemma/problem and in such and such compilation Osho says this but in the original he says that, so I really don’t know what to do.” My experience is that it is a rare sannyasin who takes a blind bit of notice of what he actually says anyway. So I think this debate over compilations is a bit redundant. Of course anyway there were compilations when he was alive.

  193. Dhanyam says:

    Alok John, I would say that for the new people there is no problem with compilation books.

    I receive some book orders from people who will not buy edited books. Some buyers insist on “Rajneesh” books (as opposed to “Osho” books).

    There were compilation books when Osho was alive, but I don’t believe anyone edited the discourses that made up those compilation books.

    It isn’t just a matter of compilation books, they are editing everything, changing whatever in order to sanitize Osho, to make him a salable commodity for sales and profit. Some people say, “So what?” and some people are outraged.

  194. Harri Om says:

    It is nice to write of flowers yet roses live in thorn bushes. Man has a heart yet man also is a political animal. Karl Marx’s vision of people communing together in a free space of caring unfortunately created the greatest “communist” tyrants humanity has ever produced.

    This is not without accident. If caring people live in a loosely organised space other people will dominate them. That is of course unless those people who live in the heart are also in touch with their power. If they are in touch with their power than they will not fulfill the “loose” part of the communal vision.

    Hence the vision of Marx, as with your own, is a vision that ultimately leads to self-destruction. Go to Pune, open your heart, and shut down your power, and you will find out what I am talking about.

    There are many seakers that pretend to walk the path with heart. They are living a lie. Push them and they will fall over. However they will pick themselves up and thank you for helping them grow. This is ugly! It takes courage to live the path with heart. You cannot make such a person go astray easily. Push them and they will push back. Just look at Osho in his power. He was a steam-roller! The vision of communism cannot be if there be a plentiful supply of willing tyrants.

    Let things be “loose” and the politically ambitious will push to the top and tighten the structure. Just look at the Taliban.The political structure has arisen because the subtleties of the human condition made communism inevitably fail.

    The “inner-circle” and the centre in Pune have evolved into a vice like structure that has tampled those that lived meekly in the heart. Thankfully others have lived in the heart yet had the courage to stand up to this. Congratulations to the general population of banned sannyassins.

    This is why the Osho Movement for Democratic Change (OMDC) was formed. The “inner-circle” is a managerial body not a spiritual theocracy. Vote the tyrants out of power. Vote for people who you feel have the integrity to administer Osho’s affairs.

    http://oshodemocracy.blogspot.com

    Harri Om

  195. shantam Prem says:

    “It isn’t just a matter of compilation books, they are editing everything, changing whatever in order to sanitize Osho, to make him a salable commodity for sales and profit. Some people say, “So what?” and some people are outraged….”

    By sanitizing Osho in every form, “they” are trying their best, to avoid Osho epidemic. Their Mosquito can bite a but it, will not create Malaria!
    They are taking care of snake quite well, feeding milk That too lactose free, but the poison gland has been taken away, so that parents can kiss peacefully, when the children play with this long snake in the zoo called Resort.
    In that sense, Echart Tolle, is more alive. I have not read any of his books but know, this boring looking man has created a record in the book trade business, so much so that if you don’t have his books, you are far beyond the time.
    One can remember the photo of Bimbo(Paris) Hilton, before she cross the prison door, she flashes two books to Paparazzi, one from Jesus, another from Mr. Tolle.

    Some people say, “So what?” and some people are outraged….

    Only very few people say, so what…those who don’t know that a little time ago, you could buy a five course meal with a less budget than what you are paying now for a plate of soup,most of the people who joined Him are outraged. Without doubt, quality of the plates has improved.
    I am utterly outraged, not because i am hungry but because i wish people after me get the taste of original, world famous recipes of Osho in His five course meal.

  196. shantam Prem says:

    PS-
    They are also like me, i have written,
    Mosquito can bite a but it…
    Google spell check, finds no mistake in the above pharse, but ‘bite a but it’, has not much punch power as,
    Mosquito can ‘bite a bit’…

    I wish my elders at 17, Koregaon Park will feel too that structure again needs a bit of jolt. The way child realises while playing with his wooden puzzle that he was trying to fix tractor at the Bus.

    Than everything is forgotten and forgiven in the spirit of experiment.

  197. Dilruba says:

    ”lam utterly outraged , not becuase iam hungry but because i wish people after me get the taste of the original ,world famous recipes of Osho in His five course meal.”
    l Love this Fire ! Shantam

  198. Alok john says:

    shantam Prem wrote “…In that sense, Echart Tolle, is more alive. I have not read any of his books but know, this boring looking man has created a record in the book trade business, so much so that if you don’t have his books, you are far beyond the time.”

    Yes, Tolle does look like a boring man doesn’t he?

    What can you say? There are Osho compilations available. There are Osho originals available. If someone chooses Tolle it just means they are not ready for Osho. Osho said he was 200 years before his time and he is deeply rebellious and anti establishment. Probably not for a public figure who wants to “get on in the world.”

  199. shantam Prem says:

    Love is a fire…buring up …buring up..

    When was the last time such music was released uder the banner of, ” Music from the world of Osho”.

    When you disrespectfully and disgracefully, put all the best sannyasins artists, creative people on EXILE, you take away the smile from a child’s face.

  200. shantam Prem says:

    Osho said he was 200 years before his time and he is deeply rebellious and anti establishment.

    Than why the Osho foundation international licks the XXX of deeply conservative and pro Establishment publishers… Why they want Him to be recognised by the Bible thumping America!

    OSho is not for those who are not ready for Him… he is not one the only Messiah… He mentions himself that those who are not ready for me, will get another ones.. Existance is always fertile,,,, this is another matter that humans can use the contraceptives..

    Don’t bother about those, who are not ready for HIM..
    for His sake,,
    DON’T STARVE THOSE WHO ARE READY FOR HIM. WHO HAVE ENTERED HIS MULTI CUISINE RESTAURANT.

  201. shantam Prem says:

    I am saying again and gain, increase the inventory but don’t take the tried and tasted products developed by Him.

    It is like why not add, Butter Chicken in the menu of Zorba or Why not to give the options of ALOO PARATHA with the Bio flour.

    When you can smoke on each and every corner of the resort, i don’t see any problem with Indian national dish, mouth watering butter chicken with garlic Nan!

    This is rebellious against the concept of Ashram.

  202. Dilruba says:

    Hey Alok John do u have face book account would like to make friends with u … if ts ok with u? Dilruba Dhar @ Facebook

  203. shantam Prem says:

    Don’t take away the products developed by Him, for sure add more in the same line.
    Sell the theme based compilations, develop quotation calender with boobs and robes, for the Xmas and new year, bulk market and release it in different languages in all the continents.
    Celebrate new year and so on, but why to put in grave the celebration days developed by Him.
    I will not even mind if the management head adds his birthday too in the celebration list. For sure, i will drink his favorite brand of wine that day, and will not complain that he is mixing his personal agenda with Osho.

    Broad mindedness is needed, a Chivalrous attitude, not the miser ones.
    The later can work for J or Tolle.

  204. Kranti says:

    I respect Shantam’s views.. But i have different view when looking at compliations & new way of packaging Osho books

    the Compilations or more recent beautiful packaging of Osho in titles like , Joy , Maturity & awreness etc and all have been hugely positive … It has made people read Osho who otherwise would not have taken to Osho easily..

    Just few weeks back we had a sale in our company and the new Osho titles are seeling like hot cakes.. A colleague of mine who have not read Osho picked up two tiltes..

    I remember a colleague of mine from earlier company telling me that the book ‘ JOY’ which he took from me has trnsnformed his life..

    It is all in packaging Osho for new generation..

    It is a good introduction to Osho as these kind books addresses their everyday problems…. Everyone will not jump in and buy a ‘ The Book of Secrets ‘ strightaway…

    Once someone gets hooked to Osho by reading a compilation or these new smaller titles.. They will move to originals sometime..

    let us face it… Nothing wrong in continuing to seel originals but it is so beautiful to see Osho colouring the book shelves with all these new look books.. Just take a look at all the airport book stalls..

    I dont know anything about whether Pune edits books but as far as marketing the Osho books to new generation is concerned they have done a phenomenal job..

  205. Kranti says:

    To me Osho symbolises Life , Colour , Celebration and a Freshness which no other master has… Not only Eckhart Tolle any teacher will look like Boring & dull infront of Osho…

    I love reading / listening to a Eckhart Tolle or Adyashanthi or a Mooji..

    I like ET’s calmness , Adya’s directness and sense of humour and Mooji’s simplicity have impressed me..But Osho is Osho.. He is Master of Masters…

    Any effort to reach out to new generation should refelect all those qualities of Osho.. with all the colour , vibe and energy … Tomorrow if pune introduces a Multi Colour Robe for dancing in Buddha grove i will embrace it joyfully..

  206. Dilruba says:

    Kranti … a five course meal is a five coarse meal { unedited }… and these compilations {edited versions } is a fast food …

    lam sure we all know the difference … the point is when l dont have the guts /capacity to print / publish the original .. i rather write my book .. the way l feel … rather than distort somebody’s .. in this case the somebody Happens to be the Master

    it is not a question of titles at all my Dear .. the change you have seen in your friend is a superficial one .. and his thirst has ended with reading ” joy ” .. and he will never want to read ”The Book of Secrets” that is the Tragedy my dear ..

  207. Kranti says:

    ” the point is when l dont have the guts /capacity to print / publish the original .. i rather write my book .. the way l feel … rather than distort somebody’s ”

    I am not aware of any editing facts / distortion.. I am not talking about that kind of presentation..I am not talking about compilations alone..I am addressing the entire issue as of ‘ Repackaging ‘..

    I am not sure about the five course meal example.. when someone is thirsty and hugry any food will do..

    Ofcourse i dont consider the new packaging as fast food or inferior etc.. Osho extracted the essence of all old traditions / teachings and complied his own receipe for new age man.. So whats wrong with repackaging the books to attrcat young generation?

    The thirst ignited by Osho will never get satisfied by reading one book.. All i am saying is why stop Osho from reaching all these young guys who otherwise would not have taken the step.. You cant blame them..Anything that looks complicated and typically spiritual will put off young people..

    Osho never categorized himself as a spritual master anyway.. These new books are intended to attract the Zorbas and bring them a balance in them..

  208. Kranti says:

    ….And when someone’s thirst ends or begins is very subjective..We know people who lived with Osho for 12 years and didnt move an inch.. We can not judge people’ thirst in that way…

  209. Dilruba says:

    Kranti there is no judgement … it is simple … l agree when one is hungry / thirsty n whatever will do for that moment … jus like l felt the golden moment yesterday here on this forum but that does not mean nothing else exists in that moment … lam not condemning repackaging at all … l dont claim to know it all .. in any case .. this is a sharing ..
    its jus that now the fire has to keep burning … even more as the Master is not in his physical manifestation .. there will be many small lamps lit … but / if Master’s fire is at stake .. these small lamps will come together .. nobody can stop them ..
    there are many Sanyassins like me who have lived” Love / Freedom ” without taking any responsibility … now existencially l / we understand all our Responsibilities …
    And the Master is part of that very ”Love / Freedom / Responsibility ” in fact the very core of that .. !

  210. Kranti says:

    ” there are many Sanyassins like me who have lived” Love / Freedom ” without taking any responsibility … now existencially l / we understand all our Responsibilities ”

    Me too Dilruba…

  211. Kranti says:

    The reason why i posted the above messages i am really touched when i see a young person gets attracted to a Osho book from store shelf ..he may / may not go too far which is not in anyone hands..But these beautiful new books will atleast make the people take the first step..If something in their heart feels for what Osho says then the flame will continue..

  212. Kranti says:

    ” when i see a young person gets attracted to a Osho book from store shelf ”

    I actually wanted to say ” i am excited at the possibility of a young people getting attracted to a Osho books from store shelf “.. It is not that i have often seen someone doing that directly..

  213. Dilruba says:

    To live Osho / oneself .. one has to take a JUMP … step / steps wont do .. this my experiance .. and there is no exception to this rule !

  214. Kranti says:

    It is difficult to define what is a JUMP..

    For example when i got attracted to Osho at 22 / 23 it was a kind of jump.. I simple fell in love with his insights.. every word of His shocked me..

    Although during a train journey when someone gave me a book when i was 16 didnt make me long for Osho although the few pages i read had huge impact which later became a flame..

    Today’s youngsters have lots of questions in their mind.. they get attracted to specific topics.. In my colleague’s case he kept 4 or 5 titles infront of him and tried to choose two books which addressed his questions.. for him JUMP is a big and somewhat irrelevant word at that time.. He had not even tasted..

    I have another friend of mine who took some Osho casettes from me and for years nothing has changed in him. But one stressful life incident made him go back to Osho and after that he moved far ahead in awareness and love for Osho within a year… So in effect he did the JUMP after nearly 5 or 6 years after i introduced Osho to him..

    So there is this longing inside which has to come to certain stage before one takes a real jump..you can say.. until then few small steps are taken..It depends on how define though..

  215. Dilruba says:

    There is no comparision in the Jump .. nor the jump depends on anybody … ofcoarse this one realizes on the journey … and only the one who takes the jump knows that .. so Chareveti … Chareveti …..

  216. shantam Prem says:

    Swami Kranti,
    I don’t find any complications regarding the books etc.
    WHen one reads or Listen Osho, life itself becomes uncomplicated.
    Priest’s work is to make simple laws of life more complex, than he can sell his ideas in grops and semnars, in prayer meetings and in family gatherings.
    Master and disciples, live in a simple world of natural laws.

    There is no harm at all to publish compilations, quotaions etc. from His treasures, to cater the different kind of people.
    The quotation books “Gold Nuggets” and “More Gold Nuggets”, can stay years long as daily dose of inner vitamins.
    I have mentioned few posts above, even one can create the best possible calenders for the mass market as during Xmas millions of such calenders with inspirational quotes are sold worldwide.
    BUT
    in this process, one should not forget to keep The Rebel Publishing Alive and Kicking.
    This inhouse publsihing house has an inbuilt constituional responsibility to publish OshO discourses in its totality with hard bound cover photo of Him and all this, at cost price.
    In ths age of amazon.com, nothing is impossible.

  217. Dilruba says:

    thanx Alok john ..

    Hey Garimo , Chetna Anand , Shahriar , Vishaka… are you on Facebook too ? … would be good to see each other through FB .. if its ok with you ?

  218. Kranti says:

    Dilruba .. whoever from this forum joins you is it possible to connect myself also?

  219. Dilruba says:

    Ofcoarse ! Dear

  220. Dilruba says:

    PS : Dilruba Dhar @ Face Book

  221. shantam Prem says:

    Dilruba has written, thanx Alok john.

    it means Alok John is on facebook. i wish to connect also with him,

    and the originator of this thread, Shahriar, Technocracy…should not take much time to download the photo.
    i think people reading or contributing here will be glad to see this, new boy with old soul.

  222. Dilruba says:

    Yes Shantam .. Alok John is on Face Book …

  223. Dilruba says:

    Hari Om … l knew a Swami who lived in Indian Village … in the mid 90′s … wondering if u are that same Swami . Hari Om ?

    anyway went through your blog … in fact a political intervention .. is not even a last resort .. in fact no resort at all .. .. the Prime Minister’s intervention … what you are doing is the most absurd thing .. l feel .. ofcourse each one is free to express their feelings …

  224. Alok john says:

    My home computer is too old for facebook so I go once every week or two to the internet cafe to catch up on my facebook account. So see you all there.

  225. shantam Prem says:

    Dilruba,
    To whom you are adressing as Hari Om and his blog…?
    wondering if u are that same Swami . Hari Om ?

    Hari Om Hari Om Hari Om,
    who is the man with this mantra name?

  226. Dilruba says:

    he has written above .. l jus happenned to read his comment ..which he wrote at 8.23am 17th Aug .. !

  227. shantam Prem says:

    Thank Dilruba,
    I had also missed this post.
    In the previous thread there was also an interesting post, after five days i have read and aknowldeged the author-Dhyan Gregory // Aug 9, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    “The issue which was needed to resolve amicably finally has been resolved in the US courts.”

    Had it been possible to resolve it amicably, the Inner Circle of 21 would not have split in the first place.

    The 21 members didn’t have enough spirit to counterbalance the inevitable centrifugal forces. The first calamity and the last.

    Technically, it all point to one thing, that we all are screaming Fire fire, so that Nero stops playing flute, and sees the burning Rom.

    Any way in the blog of Hari Om, their was a question,

    Do you want to elect the “inner-circle”?

    Yes 7 (100%)

    No 0 (0%)

  228. Shahriar says:

    I dont have facebook, but I’ll try to get a picture.

    Love (and laughs)

  229. Kranti says:

    Harri Om

    just one look at the blog.. i looged out.. No need to read further.

    What are we trying to do.. This sheer politics…

    Osho didnt even warn about people who fought the trademark case.. He exactly warned about the kind of people you are gathering … a political attempt to take over…

    Than what will you do.. do you think everyone will agree to whatever you are putting forward…and if you become aprt of the Inner Circle you will have smooth administration…???

    Just take this forum.. Most of the people cant even digest the idea you are putting forward..

    You say ” There are many seakers that pretend to walk the path with heart. They are living a lie. Push them and they will fall over. However they will pick themselves up and thank you for helping them grow. This is ugly ”

    why falling down and saying thanks is UGLY swami?

    What you are guggesting is subtle violence..

    You say ” Push them and they will push back…Just look at Osho in his power. He was a steam-roller! ”

    My God!!! Osho and power ??? Steam-rooler??

    You are even reconstructing Osho’s image to suit your needs…

    the forum is for REQUESTING people to discuss for communicating , sharing …not for the kind of things you suggest..

  230. shantam Prem says:

    Yes, Kranti. you have given a fitting reply.
    We are not here like Maoists in Nepal who wanted to delete the royal structure. And thanks God, they succeeded in this attempt.
    Their were also the movements in India, when the priests were put aside and govt. intervention became necessary to check the corruption.

    All this is not needed in “our” organisational model.
    We need to find a very holistic solution with an intelligent approach.
    Discontentment is their about the working style of the central administration, we can request them to come out from their glass houses to look at the huge sannyas population around, but to break a single window, is not the way.

  231. shantam Prem says:

    PS- Just seen that Yogendra, the brother of Jayesh, has deleted my name form his facebook friends list.
    This was the easist possibilty to block those thoughts who can create disturbance in the status quo.
    What to do, it is not easy for me to write,” i am fine, whether is fine and our cat is sooooo sweet.”

  232. Kranti says:

    Yes Shanatm..We have been critical of lot of things.. But no one here has political motives.. Just love for Osho coming out in words.. We clearly said we will restrict ourselves to suggestions based on what we see..

    We are not creating any kind of movement to over throw people in power..and that type of stuff.. inspite of criticisms about individuals we basically understand people like Jayesh , Amrito , Neelam and Keerthi are the best people we have to take care of Osho Vision and all we want too see is these people coming together and hug and communicate ..nothing more..

  233. Kranti says:

    ” PS- Just seen that Yogendra, the brother of Jayesh, has deleted my name form his facebook friends list.’

    Not good.. Keeping your name in facebook will not do any harm.. Why such a approach from someone who has meditated for years..

  234. Kranti says:

    ” All this is not needed in “our” organisational model.
    We need to find a very holistic solution with an intelligent approach.Discontentment is their about the working style of the central administration, we can request them to come out from their glass houses to look at the huge sannyas population around, but to break a single window, is not the way ”

    Well said Shantam..

  235. Anand says:

    It would be interesting, if ‘sannyas news’ can publish their amount of monthly unique visitors, how many people read these news beside the ten or so writers…. But whatever has been written here, it must appear as a threat to Yogendra. So maybe Kranti, the little mosquito is biting……

  236. Kranti says:

    ” the little mosquito is biting……”.. Yes Anand.. Some impact..

  237. garimo says:

    >>>>Just take this forum.. Most of the people cant even digest the idea you are putting forward..

    Again I request you speak only for yourself. There is no need to gather the mob to support your opinion.

    I was able to understand and appriciate Hari Oms effort perfectly well.
    That does not mean I can know what you understand or are unable to understand. And again, Understanding is NOT the same as agreeing.

  238. Kranti says:

    ” Again I request you speak only for yourself. There is no need to gather the mob to support your opinion. ”

    We spke about this earlier Garimo.. It was due to limitations of words..We all know we are expressing different view points .. It is just a way of saying the idea is political.. I also said ‘ Most of the people ‘ … May be that doesnt include you if you are alright with Hari Oms idea

    You say … ” There is no need to gather the mob to support your opinion. ”

    If what i said is gathering mob then how do you agree to what hari Om is suggesting ..asking for votes to fight against establishement is not gathering mob for you..is it?

    Common garima.. let me use few words knowing well that it is not going represent larger participants

  239. Kranti says:

    I really the enjoy the hits my ego is taking from this forum..hahahah.. Thanks Garimo..You made me aware more..

  240. shantam Prem says:

    SO Garimo is back after her exhibition cum sale of organic soaps.
    I hope she will share more her thoughts, ideas, feelings etc. as she mentioned a week ago, for sure, keeping in mind her safety and security.

  241. Kranti says:

    ” Understanding is NOT the same as agreeing ”

    Sure.. If you have to agree or not agree with someone it needs be preceded by understanding ..isnt it?

    Without understanding how will we agree / disagree with someone..?

    So I do understand that you can agree / disagree with me once you understand me..

  242. shantam Prem says:

    Anand, i will be also curious to know how much traffic has increased at sannyasnews.com, may be the only unbiased sannyas portel, which gives more views than the news of a kind, who will push the start button of Dynamic and Kundalini CD’s at a three day meditation camp.

  243. Kranti says:

    ” which gives more views than the news of a kind, who will push the start button of Dynamic and Kundalini CD’s at a three day meditation camp.”

    Very true..

  244. Kranti says:

    ” Congratulations to the general population of banned sannyassins. ”

    Glorifying all banned people & gathering mob..?

    ” Vote the tyrants out of power. ”

    Tyrants???? What are we talking about?

    ” Vote for people who you feel have the integrity to administer Osho’s affairs ‘

    Vote for whom? What basis ?

    Garimo.. read these words again.. This is what Me & Shantam disagreed..

    If this is not political then what else?

  245. shantam Prem says:

    Kranti,
    One has to accomodate the views of Hari Om too.
    Psycologically, it means the discontentment amogst the general sannyasins.
    Those who were once the share holders of a new vision can not be happy, to be treated like the cinema goers.
    Buy the ticket, enjoy the drama on the screen, touch your lover a bit here n there , whisper sweet nothings in the ear, mounch the pop corns at multiversity and go home, dear esteemed patrons.

  246. garimo says:

    Sorry, this likely relates to little… just my mind rambeling on about some stuff.

    But I’m thinking about; Sannyas, the gathered, the Sangha… near 40 years old, and my current conclusion drawn from my observations is that there have always there has been every kind of human expression possible. Included in this Sannyas are saints and criminals, mediators and the religious, politicians and the antagonists and the gathering of all these interwoven minds has made what this Sannyas experience what it is. Each have had their role and each a part or the shared existence.

    Nearly 40 years old, and this body of sannyassins has ebbed and flowed with harmony and chaos, celebration and discord developing a personality very much bi-polar shifting and always in motion. While at the same time there has always been the middle point to also have balance for those who choose to experience from there.

    Along with being bi-polar with the extreme peaks and valleys, this body of Sannyas has seemed to “struggle with” or “just have experiences of” — whatever judgment of mind one chooses, times of productive energy, expansion and other times of doing self harm. Sometimes I’m reminded of people who are cutters. People who harm themselves by cutting themselves because they have the feeling that they haven’t control over their life path and so they cut themselves and bleed because the pain gives them the feeling of having power in their life, a little adrenaline gets to flow. If nothing else, they have power to harm themselves.

    Now that Sannyas is aging and has history reflecting back is easier and I can form my own rationalizations of what it’s gone through… and one on my thoughts for some time now has been the image of the cutter. Whenever there have been banning… a cut and the body bleeds a little but no great harm has been done. Nothing life threatening, Sannyas goes on… Whenever some group of sannyassins is ostracized by the majority mob for some reason, the therapists & group leaders, or friends of the disposed secretaries, the queers, the Indians… whatever grouping… more cuts on the body of the sangha, a little more bleeding but nothing life threatening. Just another display of power to unify control of the majority mob. With a little time the cuts heal and are forgotten… mostly.

    If I didn’t have better/other things to do with my life these days, I’d be feeling sad that 40 years old and we/sannyas don’t seem to have the awareness that we’re scaring ourselves unnecessarily.

    As for me, I have no answers or questions. Just a little time this morning to write something while having observations and self-examinations. I do hope we’ve been creative with our scaring. Some body modification and scarifiation is interesting, but I haven’t gone for that on myself.

    Some days ago, Shantam Prem asked me what I thought the future of Sannyas was for the people new to Osho. All I can think of is that it will be different than what I remember, but I suspect the new people will bring along the minds of saints and criminals, mediators and the religious, politicians and the antagonists, So there will still be plenty of drama, I just hope the cutting faze will be out grown.

    Thank you for your time :-)
    I’ll bow out now.
    -g

  247. garimo says:

    >>>SO Garimo is back after her exhibition cum sale of organic soaps.
    I hope she will share more her thoughts, ideas, feelings etc. as she mentioned a week ago, for sure, keeping in mind her safety and security.

    :-)
    My hormones were a little different… but enough to be called swami.

    Yep, I’ve been busy with work, reading here, writing, editing responses and then deleting before I post. Better to not inflect you with what goes on in my mind, you’ve got one of your own to keep up with!

    Thank you for your kind words, I feel welcomed.
    -g

  248. garimo says:

    Kranti,
    You ask:
    “If this is not political then what else?”

    Yes, it is political. So What?

    Do you repress or develop your political thoughts and ideas?

    The politicians are important for doing what they do. One thing they do is they create the organization and manage the space so the non-doing meditators have a place to park their ass. They do this by reacting to those who agree and disagree with their actions.

    Why put on a blindfold or tie one hand behind the back? Both are needed by the other to be useful for doing what they do.

    But as my mind see it, it’s even more useful to use them creatively and wisely, and for me, fighting, repressing, denying, making one out to be more evil than the other, isn’t the most wisest use but IT IS one way to move energy.

    Yes, sometimes I think I’m political, Sometimes I’m not. Really I’m thinking it’s okay and I’m not overly damaged by it.

    -g

  249. shantam Prem says:

    .”..and the gathering of all these interwoven minds has made what this Sannyas experience what it is. Each have had their role and each a part or the shared existence.

    “All I can think of is that it will be different than what I remember, but I suspect the new people will bring along the minds of saints and criminals, mediators and the religious, politicians and the antagonists, So there will still be plenty of drama, I just hope the cutting faze will be out grown.”

    Music from Miten and Premal, while writing this.

    The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

    and the frozen tears in the eyes; home is where the heart is….and my heart is with YOU.

    YOU-the people on the path, the people who brought colors to poona and the business to Richshaws and beggers and to room renters like me!

  250. garimo says:

    >>So I do understand that you can agree / disagree with me once you understand me..

    And even more often understanding has little to do with agreeing or disagreeing. :-)

  251. garimo says:

    >>>If what i said is gathering mob then how do you agree to what hari Om is suggesting ..asking for votes to fight against establishement is not gathering mob for you..is it?

    Sometimes there are things I let people put in my mouth… but words aren’t one of ‘em. I clearly remember saying “understanding is not the same as agreeing.”

    So? the only options are agreeing or disagreeing?

    …I’m thinking there are others.

  252. Harri Om says:

    Why am I not suprised that I have been misunderstood by some. Ironically the chief complaint is that politics is no place for holistic meditative wisdom wonderers.

    By example I will try an explain: Yogendra deletes you from Facebook for your holistic thinking. His power crushes you! Swat, swat, swat!!!

    Politicians like Yogendra will not be countered by flowery murals. Yes the heart transcends power, yet in order to do so power must confront power – else the heart has no source from which it gathers sustenance.

  253. shantam Prem says:

    Hari Om.
    Like a fresh yet stormy wind you have entered te sannyasnews Discussion area. It is beautiful.

    I am sure, the discussion here is not just for catharsis pupose, like the queen provides space in Hyde Park,London. One can discuss everything under the sky without touching the royal family.
    As must of us, realise that Osho work has taken the shape of Monarchist form, not just in Pune but in Dharamshala too.

    This person based work, requires a jolt to create something like 10, Drowning Street.

    Politics is a part of life. One can play as good, the way boxers punch, but one must adhare to the rules of the games and not to hit under the belt.

    ANd another thing, Dilruba, was trying to guess your identity. As you have created the blog, it will be nice to tell something about yourself.
    WHo you are, since when you are in love with Osho, your experiences in the commune and moreover your Photo, if not at your blog than at facebook.
    When we are clear, honest, sincere and non violent about our approach, Guerieela warfare tactics are not needed.

  254. Kranti says:

    Garimo / Shanatm

    I agree that very one is free to express ..Every idea has room for expression..

    And people also have room to disagree ideas ..isnt it?

    My interpretaion of Hari Om’s idea is that it is political and gathering vote to overthrow an establishement is more closer to creating / dislodging organizations and not Inner circle kind of ‘ organisms ‘ ( although how effective that organism is a point for detailed discussion )

    Hari Om agrees in his post above that ” yet in order to do so power must confront power ”

    If politics has room in administering things for a Osho meditation center and it also has a place for over throwing a ‘ Organism ‘ formed by Osho then WHY NOT LEAVE the current management as it is.. What is their to fight for..?

    The whole issue has blown up because people feel the Organism has become an Organization and we ( again limitaion of words ) dont want that kind of approach etc etc

    Now what is the point of justifying that a political approach is alright and acceptable?

    This exactly the problem with a polotical approach..We dont want the current establishement to function in certain way and to counter that we propose something similar .. Once a new management is formed another group will start the fight again justifying things in the same way… Then why make effort to over throw the organization should arise in the first place? Beeter we live with what we have ..

    Any suggestion / approach which is political will have ‘ Other Agenda ‘ & ‘ Vested Interest ‘ & ‘ actions out of bitterness ‘ and it can not create a positive vibe even after the change is effected.. everyoen will have the same distrust against the new management … Otherwise political overthrowing of an establishement will not be taken..what is the need ?

  255. shantam Prem says:

    PS- Yogendra can delete me from the facebook, it is the genuine Punch, i can take this and laugh but if someone tries to delete the opponents from the EARTHBOOK, the way it is being done in Afganistan or was being done in Sri Lanka, than it is unfair and too expansive a game to play.
    We are getting nourishment from Osho and not from that man hidden in the Pakistan caves, this famous terrorist, his name is not coming in my brain, may be he is no more.

  256. Kranti says:

    Hari Om ..you say ” : Yogendra deletes you from Facebook for your holistic thinking. His power crushes you! ”

    What is the Crushing here ? He has deleted someone’ connection in facebook because of his own reasons / non-reasons.. It can be as simple as he restricting his friends to a closer / smaller group.. Why should we exaggerate and magnify it as ‘ Crushing with power ‘ and because he deleted an entry from facebook he is a politician etc..

    I know you are quoting it as an example.. May be you could have quoted a bigger / really political example / action of someone …

    If we can not accept someone deleting a facebook contact from his account and interpret that as an action of politics ( not sure how close Shantam was to him . I cant judge that ) the how do we expect to suggest such major idea and expect people to to understand..?

  257. shantam Prem says:

    When a sickness is diagnosed, than comes a phase to decide what kind of therapy, as their are always muliple options.
    Most of the time in the name of Holistic, people avoid the main stream medicines, but prefer some Shamanic cure for their cancer, the way Indian Yogi Ramdev thinks, homosexuals can be turned into straights by Pranayam’ and that Aids and Swine flu can be cured by Ayuerveda.
    I can simply agree with him on one point, over population can be controled by his kind of yoga and herbal medicines.
    Stop all the pharama production for two three years in India, give people cow urine based medicines, and bravo…around 20% of my countrymen will fly direct to heaven.

    What Shahriar has expressed in his article is the condense form of Osho vision in a very very idealist envirnment, where people are born but their are no sicknesses around, a land where you require no vaccination at birth and you live hundred without knowing the doctor’s chambers.

    In our context, the experiment of life in a collective way, has gone beyond its charter. If Jayesh and co. also feel that somewhere they have gone a bit too far and change the course of their actions, than it is a new bigining in an intelligent way, otherwise the intervantion of politcs will become necessary the way legal actions became unavoidable.

  258. shantam Prem says:

    Kranti,
    Why you are freaking out at Hari Om, we don’t need another Mahatma Gandhi, the morally upright father figure.
    I wonder why people have condemnatory tone towards Politics.
    Politicans are too small entities compared to the subject of poltics, the science of governance, the way Sannyasins are almost negligible int he whole spectrum of spiritual sciences.

  259. Kranti says:

    ” I wonder why people have condemnatory tone towards Politics.”

    I dont condemn.. I am asking whether a political approach is relevant in the context of what we are involved in …..Arent there better and meditative ways of approaching the issue?

    I am neither asking for Mahatma Gandhi here…

    Osho would have spent hours delivering discourses againt political appraoches… But he also made it clear he is addressing the politicians inside us not outside …

    So when we moot an idea with a touch of politics shouldnt we become aware of the same ?

  260. Kranti says:

    ” If Jayesh and co. also feel that somewhere they have gone a bit too far and change the course of their actions, than it is a new bigining in an intelligent way, otherwise the intervantion of politcs will become necessary the way legal actions became unavoidable.”

    I know people who gone through lot of pains in the form banning have better inside info and facts than someone like me who has not suffered like that.. I respect their feelings.. But still… i honestly dont know
    how do we decide ‘ they have gone a bit too far ‘ and ‘ intervantion of politcs will become necessary ‘..

  261. Kranti says:

    Again i can only go by what i see..

    Few points from Hari OMs blog

    ” The OMDC is not born out of any historic Osho factions, and its primary motivation is apolitical ”

    This is contradictory to what is being expressed here in the form of ” ” Ironically the chief complaint is that politics is no place for holistic meditative wisdom wonderers. ”

    Now quickly sannyasins who oppose that as political move will become ‘ holistic meditative wisdom wonderers ‘..

    ” However the OMDC reserves the right to participate in any future electoral process ”

    ” The OMDC will petition the Prime Minister of India Manmohan Singh with the below letter ”

    One Group of sannyasins gave up the control to US Law to decide about Trademark aspect..

    Now another group trying to get help from Indian govt & Indian politicians which did all the insult to Osho during his time..

    I am really sorry guys.. I am uncomfortable to see this kind of stuff.. May be i am not meditative enough & strong enough to absorb such things..

  262. Kranti says:

    I just realise all the blogs posted there are signed as posted by ‘ OSHO’ himself..

    Under ‘About Me’ i see a Osho photo also..

    Ultimate Identity crisis?

  263. Anand says:

    Yogendra, Jayesh, Pramod etc. are laughing about this forum and do not give
    a xxxx about it. As long as there is not threat to their power from here or money to be milked they are non interested. Why should they?
    It is nice to face guns with flowers, but this already did not work in the 60ties.
    But they probably keep an eye on it, just in case…….

  264. Dilruba says:

    Hari Om … after reading your second post … l feel you are / trying to be Krishna from Mahabharat … but l feel we have had enough of blood shed in the name of Religion … and my understanding is we have seen this even through the present scenario of voilence .. in all parts of the world without any exception …

    l feel Osho wants us / ”His People” to go beyond all the so called religions … isn’t he conveying this through his discourses n silence ?

    l don’t expect any answer …. but if anyone wants to share .. please go ahead …

  265. Dilruba says:

    Kranti l suggest you to take a break from work / maybe come to Poona / any Ohso centre & do some meditation / group … your milk teeth are waiting to become wisdom teeth … no arrogance meant my Dear … lam sure u understand … !

  266. Dilruba says:

    Osho !

  267. shantam Prem says:

    Yogendra, Jayesh, Pramod etc. are laughing about this forum and do not give
    a xxxx about it. As long as there is not threat to their power from here or money to be milked they are non interested. Why should they?

    Yes Anand, at least you accept the fact that issues of power are involved. Osho is just a mask to cover the tendencies to Control.
    For sure, Jayesh has spent lot of his personal money, but the same way Mil Gibson’s church has 43 million dollars worth of reserve money and how many people are in his church’s congregation, hardly one hundred.
    When the few in this congregation were heard whispering about his adultery, he warned them to shut up, otherwise he will close the church!

  268. Kranti says:

    I didnt understand that Milk teeth concept Dilruba… Of course i will come over to pune..shortly..

  269. shantam Prem says:

    how do we decide ‘ they have gone a bit too far ‘ and ‘ intervantion of politcs will become necessary ‘..

    It is very simple. Hundred thousands have seen, lived felt, participated in the history of Osho unfolding. Most of them are still alive.
    If their involvement is respected and are treated as fellow travelers rather than cash cows, their voice needed to be heard.
    Let the system create a independent survey, How many of these hundred thousands sannyasins agree/disagree with the course of Osho’s movement in its present form.
    If just 20%, minimum majority is too far say YES to the present management team, still i wll write a letter of apology of hearting their feelings.

    Intervention of politics has already taken place, the moment case is registered in any court, you aknowledge automatically that it is not a banana republic. Through people’s involvement a legitimate govt. is working and protecting judiciary as a functional tool.

  270. Kranti says:

    Let me absorb this Shantam..

    I liked that ‘ minimum majority ‘

    I just called Dilruba to say a Hi..

  271. shantam Prem says:

    Yogendra, Jayesh, Pramod etc. are laughing about this forum and do not give
    a xxxx about it. As long as there is not threat to their power from here or money to be milked they are non interested. Why should they?

    Anand, it is immense compassion of life that these people are confined only till the Osho Foundation. With their kind of management system, all the world’s corporations and govts. will go berzerk.

    Their approach is not more than a family oriented business. May be you agree.

  272. shantam Prem says:

    And i say again Kranti, Even in the new inner circle, Jayesh will still be the president, Amrito will be still the second in command.
    Remaining 19 members will be from the different group of people, independent in their approach but connected deeply with the tapestry of Osho.
    Rubber stamps members days are over. They should buy the ashram ticket and work at the main gate guarding, for their crystallisation process.The way Tathagat is history so will be Parmod.

    Me, the Shantam, the low paid worker in German society will be glad to work in the garden of our Master, in the decision making body of the ashram. For sure, all my personal expanses i will bear myself, so that their is no need to sell soul for the soup!

    With this idea, i hope to write for a new thread. if the words could flow from my heart.

  273. Anand says:

    Shantam Prem:
    “Their approach is not more than a family oriented business. May be you agree.”

    ….yes I do, but it is more like a mixture of mafia and CIA….

  274. Dilruba says:

    Shantam … this application of yours might work better if you have to write directly to OIF … about your proposal to them … unless you have already done that … since it is concerning specifically to the Organization / Administration of OIF …
    what any one of us does … is anyways .. ones own decision

    l would like express this anyway ..

  275. shantam Prem says:

    Oh My God, Anand….you are speaking in a very politically incorrect language!

  276. Anand says:

    Exactly…no God, no trouble.
    Mafia: dealing with your ‘enemy’ in only one way, in this case through ‘banning’.
    CIA: keep everything, specially finances secretive.
    There is only one way to change the existing power: buy them out. How many millions of $$$$$ would that cost?

  277. Dilruba says:

    WoW … ! Anand do you really feel that they are up for SALE ?

  278. Kranti says:

    My God..Anand..You are thinking very creatively ..out of the box..

  279. Neo Vivek says:

    “And bees, Arundhati Roy reminds us, can chase away the buffalo.”

  280. shantam Prem says:

    Sometime the sarcism is closer to truth, specially If you want to give sermons to the stones.

    Bees can chase away the buffalos. First time i am hearing this wisdom of the earthly people, otherwise most of us know virus in the mail can even destroy the Pantagon’s software.

    Neo Vivek, this is a new name.
    We won’t be surprised if you tell us that you are in a live in relaion with “Osho Rajneesh”!

  281. Anand says:

    sorry – I drifted of a bit.. jut heard a lot of re-modeling is happening in the Osho Meditation Resort Pune (Basho, Krishna House) etc. Good news and I need to meditate a bit to go beyond all these mind games…see you in a few days.

  282. Neo Vivek says:

    no no
    I have nothing to do with anyone. i just am a big fan of the Rebel- Arundhati Roy!

    and hey, Bees CAN chase away THE buffalo. Saw that on Nat Geo ;)

  283. Neo Vivek says:

    and it was not meant to be a sermon.
    I was reading posts here and also reading some articles and saw that quote in the article, struck me. Felt like sharing the joy of the quote and so posted it here.

  284. Shahriar says:

    Garimo this is from your post:

    “If this is not political then what else?”
    Yes, it is political. So What?
    Do you repress or develop your political thoughts and ideas?
    The politicians are important for doing what they do. One thing they do is they create the organization and manage the space so the non-doing meditators have a place to park their ass. They do this by reacting to those who agree and disagree with their actions.

    Garimo, politics and management are two different things. Politics means being able to impose your ideas/will on others which may not be right. Management is just functional work…delivering the mail, making sure the lights are working etc. It has nothing to do with imposing your ideas on others. Politicians are not important for what they do, because their work is not purely functional. It has many subjective elements mixed into it. Having power is just like having money, you can do what you want with it. (to a certain extent) Responsibility is different. Responsibility means you have a certain job to do and you are evaluated based on how well you do that job, if you do it, good for you, but if you don’t do it you are thrown out.

    Love

  285. Shahriar says:

    Hari Om this is from your post:

    Why am I not suprised that I have been misunderstood by some. Ironically the chief complaint is that politics is no place for holistic meditative wisdom wonderers.
    By example I will try an explain: Yogendra deletes you from Facebook for your holistic thinking. His power crushes you! Swat, swat, swat!!!
    Politicians like Yogendra will not be countered by flowery murals. Yes the heart transcends power, yet in order to do so power must confront power – else the heart has no source from which it gathers sustenance.

    Hari Om, I disagree. You do not seem to have any experience of powerless mystics facing power. Power is unconscious and it is natural that in power there will always be different opinions, ideas, sides etc. But this does not mean that you need power to confront power, because the people confronting are essentially the same as those who are being confronted. Perhaps this is inevitable, because the people in power only represent one side/opinion and they cant represent all sides.

    As far as Yoganedra is concerned he seems to me to be sentimental. He should respond to what Kranti or anyone else says through words, taking them off face book is no response.

    Something that just occurred to me is that No One “represents” Osho’s vision. As long as people are unconscious, they only represent “Their understanding of Osho’s vision” not the vision itself, and since there are many different persons in this world, it is natural that there will be many different understandings of Osho’s vision.

    I am reminded of Ananda after Buddha’s death. When Ananda was writing his recollection of Buddha’s words he began every sutra with “I have heard the Tathagata say” and everyone else began the sutras with “the Tathagata said”. Let us remember that as long as we are unconscious it would be wrong and egoistic to say that we “represent” Osho’s vision? All that we could say is that this is OUR understanding of Osho’s vision, not the vision itself.

    For instance in Islam, there are many ayatollah’s and sheiks who think that they “represent” Mohammad’s vision and based on this assumption do whatever the hell they please. Christianity is also very similar to this.

    One thing also is that as far as Jayesh is concerned, Who is he to take care of Osho’s dream? Is he a saint? A Buddha? Osho would be STUPID to leave his dream in the hands of someone who is not yet enlightened. So we have to decide whether we are going to accept such stupidity as believing that Osho’s dream has been given into the hands of Jayesh so that he can take care of it and whether we have any factual evidence that in fact this was said by Osho. I am not sure how many people were there, because this could very well be a hoax created by certain cunning people to deceive the innocent. I for one have no proof that Osho said this. For me it is just hearsay which could have been created by certain cunning individuals for whatever ulterior motive they have.

  286. Shahriar says:

    Democracy

    Democracy is no different from dictatorship. Both are subjective. Democracy means the majority imposing its own ideas and dictatorship means the few imposing their own ideas. As far as I am concerned the best thing would be functional management where the people in in managerial positions have no personal interest in their work and their only desire is fulfill the responsibilites which they have, with the willingness to step down if someone else can fulfill these responsibilites better than they can.

    As far as decisions relating to the direction in which Osho’s work moves, everyone has his/her own idea and opinion, BUT just because you think that your opinion is right does not mean that it is right. There is every possibility that it may be wrong and you are just deceived, so please beware.

  287. Shahriar says:

    “This is why the Osho Movement for Democratic Change (OMDC) was formed. The “inner-circle” is a managerial body not a spiritual theocracy. Vote the tyrants out of power. Vote for people who you feel have the integrity to administer Osho’s affairs. ”

    How do you decide who has integrity? Do you have integrity? Perhaps the person who has integrity does not agree with you, does he suddenly lose his “integrity” or does he still have it?

    You say “vote for the people who you feel have the integrity to administer Osho’s affairs”

    What if your feeling is wrong? How do you decide who has the right to vote, because any fool can voice his opinion but this does not mean that it is right. There is every possibility of making the wrong choice when you are voting. With our own eyes we see politicians deceiving the people, and you want to create a system where people are elected based on the opinions and feelings of people? Socrates was opposed by the majority. Does this mean that Socrates is wrong? Socrates was poisoned through a democratic process. Did you know that?

    This reminds me of the people who in Osho’s very lifetime called him a “self-appointed Bhagwan”. As if a Bhagwan is appointed by a commitee. And obviously we need to ask who appointed the committee in the first place.

  288. garimo says:

    Shahriar,

    >>>>Garimo, politics and management are two different things.

    Not in my mind.
    Do you imagine there are robots somewhere that can do management without, negotiating, convincing, bargaining or whatever it takes to get the job done? Management may be a function, but the mind of the manager needs to be political.

    I wonder from where you get the idea Osho had no concerns for power. Seems to me, He had it, used it and was the final authority as long as he was alive. It was my understanding that it was to Him we were to surrender to. Much is learned about the experience of power, personal authority, and responsibility when one gives it away or takes it back. Not so much learned from chat room lectures.

    Even leaders of Oshos meditations, with his guidelines (authority) in the ashram training’s discussed ways of giving instruction without being and sounding dictatorial. Different and more subtle ways to influence and manipulate a desired response.

    I don’t think my political mind is ever far from my actions. Everything needs to be considered. Which strategy will better make me friends? Which strategy will meet my needs for comfort an safety? Which strategy will better help me be better understood? Which strategy will enrich my life and those around me?

    My political mind will choose the option and direct my actions so I can manage the tasks at hand.

    For me, I prefer to think it’s okay for managers and officials to be more than just labotimized functionaries… I think let them keep their humanity, hearts and egos and help them when needed to remember one basic need people share is being treated with fairness and consideration. Maybe political strategies can be formed to better meet all the needs. I’ve also noticed identifying the needs is a helpful stategy for getting them met.

    -g

  289. Shahriar says:

    Garimo,

    You are right. Management cannot be always be impersonal, because the people in power are not robots. That was my mistake.

    But it occurs to me that I would not like people to impose their ideas on me, or to impose their will on me. So there has to be a way of making sure that power does not become “too much” otherwise the result will be that weakness will also become “too much”. So it would be beautiful if a certain balance existed which kept power in check so that it remains within limits and does not become too much. Otherwise, the people would become extremely weak and helpless. For instance, Joseph Stalin had too much power, and the people around him were totally weak and helpless. They could not oppose even one action that he did. So it would be good and beautiful if no one had too much power, otherwise what would happen is that the people would become extremely weak, helpless and dependant. and I do not want to be weak and helpless and dependant. So a balance would be the most beautiful thing to have. And I agree that the political mind thinks and plans about survival, friendship etc. etc. Something that I just realized was that I was raised in a situation where I was dependant. I did not have the opportunity to struggle and make efforts. Everything was provided for me, and this has had the effect of my not developing a political mind. This is not something good or something which I am proud of, because what you call the political mind is just the ability to survive and to think about how to survive. It is nothing bad. What I was/am opposed to is too much power, because side by side with too much power, too much weakness is created and someone will have to be suffer. Too much wisdom is also bad, because side by side with it someone will have to become a fool. Otherwise how will you decide who is wise? Through comparing him/her with the fool. Too much goodness is also bad because it creates evil, otherwise without evil there would be no way to recognize goodness. So I would like a balanced world. Where everything is enough and nothing is too much.

  290. garimo says:

    >>>>So I would like a balanced world. Where everything is enough and nothing is too much.

    I hear ya dude….. I think this is where that guy would tell ya to look inward. Giving the mind a rest, steping back and watching…breathing…perhaps then the middle ground is easier to find.

    hugs to you.
    -g

  291. Shahriar says:

    Here here! (or is it hear hear! ? )

    Yes Garimo,

    Hugs to you too.

    (and to you all, because we don’t believe in being a spectator, we believe in participation.)

  292. Kranti says:

    Shahriar & Garimo…. Good insights.. Intense participation indeed..

    Ideally speaking Politics and Management are indeed two different things .. Management should simply be a function according to clearly laid out requirements..

    The problem comes when there are no clearly laid out requirements & you need to manage things using any means .. Ultimately the management team is responsible for carrying out functions and goals & they need to manage them using means which are ‘ appropriate ‘.. What is appropriate is very subjective and contextual..When a management team attempts to perform the functions given to them they come across hurdles which needs to be managed sometimes politically , sometimes aggressively , sometimes fairly , sometimes ethically etc… apart from managing their ‘ Inner politicians ‘…The struggle is both Inner and outer at the same time..

    If they are not ready to use any ‘ means ‘ then they cannot be effective and achieve the goals…So that leads us to the ‘ goal ‘ orientation which leads to management using wrong means and converting the function into politics..

    Also I have a feeling we try to reconcile the Inner and Outer and it is simply not possible.. Once an outside action is performed it is bound to impact some people negatively and some people positively.. The people who were impacted negatively will always see ‘ politics’ from their view.

    I am manager in a corporate and lot of things which looked unfair to me few years ago have become ‘ appropriate ‘ tools for managing situations / people ..I paid heavy price for trying to be ‘ Fair ‘.

    Having said that.. when it comes to fairness , transparency and professional management today’s organizations / management are far better than yesterdays managements..We are moving towards evolving Organisms which Osho talked about .. But the growth is painful and slow..and expected to be so..

    Osho had the vision to think of an Organism based on Meditative approach ( without any goal orientation and competiveness ) to manage the temporal affairs .. But whether that Organism has lost its core qualities or not is a subjective view.. You never know what were the happenings behind the screen

    What surprises me of course is that the Inner Circle’ job is not that complicated compared to a typical management team managing corporate functions.. there is room for managing things with minimum politics..

    Assuming the Inner Circle has lost the core quality of an Organism how do we know ‘ as outsiders ‘ how and where things started going wrong..

    People who are still in inner Circle will say the other members went against Osho Vision and they dropped out / sent out.. The people who dropped out will say they did so because the people who are still in Inner Circle did not stick to Osho vision and that is why we disagreed and dropped out ( Banned in their own words )

    Both can be right / wrong.. why should we think only one side should be right. Both sides have made all attempts to communicate / reconcile differences and it could not be achieved so far.. may this is how things are meant to be.. Most of us find it difficult to accept the current scenario and would like to revert back to a condition which suits our conditioning..

    When a Anthony thinks, things are more or less how it should be , a Shanatm would like to see few things reverted back a to strike balance ..But a XXXXX may like to see more older scenarios..Even if a new Inner Circle comes like what Hari Om thinks not everyone is going to be happy.. If we see a Pune which tilts towards more worshipping all the westerners will stop coming like the way most of the Indian sannyasins have stopped coming because they don’t to see a ‘ resort ‘.. where do we strike a balance ..

    Surely possible if very intense and extensive communication takes place with participation from wide range of sannyasins

    I started off in these forums a bit aggressively with my own ideas and after seeing so many viewpoints I am kind of softening up inside..

    Like Garimo said ” I think this is where that guy would tell ya to look inward. Giving the mind a rest, stepping back and watching…breathing…perhaps then the middle ground is easier to find.

  293. Dilruba says:

    my Hugs too ! to All

  294. Kranti says:

    Shahriar !! Are you really 18 years old ?

  295. Kranti says:

    ” Something that I just realized was that I was raised in a situation where I was dependant. I did not have the opportunity to struggle and make efforts. Everything was provided for me, and this has had the effect of my not developing a political mind ”

    Hope you meant ‘ where I was independant ”

    Very True.. When you look at people from this veiw point you look with compassion.. In my organization i have colleagues who play politics 24/7.. I used to get upset.. Now i look at things differently.. Thats is how their conditioning is.. They are used to look at everything from a fear based / survival based approach from their childhood ..How people can step out of that and see for themselves what they are doing.?

    As I look at everyday life around me I see how deep Osho’s insights are.. Have never heard / seen a master who had the pulse of human mind from as many angles..

  296. Kranti says:

    Shahriar !!

    You say… ” What I was/am opposed to is too much power, because side by side with too much power, too much weakness is created and someone will have to be suffer ”

    May you would like to think about one point which Osho used to talk about is how people are willing to allow a set of people to have power.. How they are willing to give up responsibility and control to ‘ Chosen few ‘

    There are millions of people who suffer willingly by giving up control.. They like playing the role of victims..

    It need not be politics.. even in families..If you come to India one thing that would strike you is the role played by a ‘ typical house wife ‘.. and how they willingly choose to be victims..

  297. Shahriar says:

    I do not see why I shouldn’t be 18 years old.

    When I said that I was raised in a place where I was dependant, I did not mean that I was psychologically dependant, but many times I was not required to encounter difficulties and challenges. So the better way of saying would be to say : I was raised in a place where I did not have the opportunity to encounter challenges and difficulties.

  298. Shahriar says:

    Otherwise I was pretty inderpendant.

  299. shantam Prem says:

    Shahriar, after reading one of your comments, i went to the previous threads to fish out a story.

    Zen story of our time:

    Master could feel that His time has come to leave this shore for the eternity.As it was done always, he calls His main disciples for the last minute sharing.
    Disicples could feel a new kind of serenity on Master’s face. Master looks at them with adoring eyes and whispers, ” I leave you my Dream.” and drifts apart like a wood stock in the ocean.

    To see this, disciples start sobbing. Master opens His eyes again and says mischievously,” And don’t forget to change the marble in my room and also the air conditioner. It was too loud like the chattering mind.”

    This has not happened thousands of years ago…. It is a Zen story of our time and disciples are wondering from than on, whether the Master has entrusted His dream to the two main disciples present at the death bed or it was for all of them!

  300. Shahriar says:

    It seems to me that if Osho had a key to entrust, which it seems he did, he would entrust it into the hands of conscious people so that it could be preserved. People who would know what to do, in different situations. Something perhaps like an esoteric group of wise ones. Obviously there is no way to judge what Amrito and Jayesh are doing, because right now there may not be any way of knowing whether they are wise or not for the ordinary people, but on the other hand waiting for them to screw up is also not right. I am uncertain about whether Jayesh and Amrito are the caretakers of Osho’s vision since he did not declare them enlightened as far as I know and since they seem to have been entrusted with only a very small aspect of Osho’s work, mainly that of resort manager and as an organization that shares the words of Osho with the world. This seems to be their only two functions. The purpose of Jayesh and Amrito was never more than a manager of Koregan Park and a functional organization whose purpose is to share Osho’s work. That is their ONLY function. Nothing more than that. They are neither spiritual heads, nor enlightened persons, nor wise ones, their only function is to share Osho’s words with others and to manage the resort. Jayesh and Amrito should be considered plumbers, or cooks, or dishwashers. They are nothing more than that.

    One thing that I would like to say in relation to Osho’s work and Islam is that in Islam a group of politicians arose along with Mohammad who did everything in their power to weaken and maim Islam and destroy that authentic Islam which Mohammad preached. They were the politicians who cared more about power and wealth and position than about truth. Truth is not always respectable, or popular or powerful. And those politicians were muslims only as far as name and appearance was concerned. Their being was not a muslim, and ultimately it is not our words or our actions which determine whether we are muslims, or christians, or anything else, it is our being. Being is the ultimate determinant of whether you are a muslim or a sannyasin, and words and actions can be very deceptive. Therefore Osho would not entrust his dream to two main disciples but he would not entrust it to all sannyasins either. The reason is this: Anyone can pretend to be a sannyasin and work to harm Osho’s vision, so you cannot say that sannyasins are caretakers of Osho’s vision. sannyasins have the potential to do much that is harmful to Osho’s vision especially since there is no guarantee that by becoming a sannyasin you are enlightened and free from greed, jealousy, ambition, desire for power over others etc. etc. etc. So Osho cannot say that. On the other hand, he would not have entrusted his vision to two disciples whose sole purpose was to manage Koregan park/Pune resort and to make his words available. The only purpose for which Jayesh and Amrito were supposed to exist for/do exist is to take care of these two small and trivial tasks which needed to be done. They have no higher position than that, and they should not be considered as being anything more than a cook, a plumber or a dishwasher. That is their job and function. Nothing more.

  301. Shahriar says:

    It seems to me that each sannyasin will only represent their understanding of Osho. No one will “represent” Osho himself because that is impossible. And as far as enlightenment is concerned, no enlightend person needs the authority of Osho behind his words. Enlightened persons can simply speak on their own authority. And Osho does not need any interpretor to be understood. He can be understood directly. So each sannyasin will only be representing their understanding of Osho and his vision, not Osho’ vision itself. For instance, no christian priest says that this is my understanding of Jesus Christ and not the actual truth of Christ. They claim that what they are saying is exactly what Jesus meant when he spoke. Muslim ayatollahs do the same. They never say that this is their understanding of Mohammad. They say that is Mohammad’s actual message itself.

    This seems to be something we should consider.

  302. shantam Prem says:

    That is why Osho has insisted thousands of time, never say, Buddha said like this, always mention, i have heard Buddha saying..
    This give scope to other disciple’s interpretation too, and in the process all the interpretations make the work colorful, rich.
    Priests are not the people, who ware certain kind of robes or have a certain kind of beard, Priests are the parasites who eat out other delicate interpretations of the scriptures, they may even ware three piece.

  303. garimo says:

    >>>That is why Osho has insisted thousands of time, never say, Buddha said like this, always mention, i have heard Buddha saying..

    That’s why you heard Osho insist thousands of times…?

    :-) sorry, couldn’t resist.

  304. shantam Prem says:

    Thanks Garimo for the tease.
    To err is human and what a joy to be human.

    So let me pharse the sentence again and if again something is missing, please convey.

    The way I have heard, Osho saying thousands of times….

  305. Kranti says:

    JK said we need to be ” tremendously honest with yourself throughout your being “

  306. Kranti says:

    Sorry

    I heard JK said ” be tremendously honest with yourself throughout your being “

  307. shantam Prem says:

    I think and feel that this forum here is an opportunity, a group from Osho to check how much honesty we can bring out.
    Just today i have seen that “Free, Fair, Fearless”, is a logo of one of the India’s most dedicated mgazine to quality journalism “Tehelka”.
    And the way ancient seekers have mentioned,
    Tamso Man jyotirgamay. (from darkness to light)
    Asto man Sadgamyay…(from lies to truth)
    Mritu man Amritgamay..(from death to deathlessness)

  308. I feel that arguing about what is right and what is wrong and discussing about the being of Osho is waste of time…..

    Clock is ticking…. what are we going to do….. just forget about the people who commercialize spirituality which is the essence of humane being….

    I know there were 5000 people who lived with Osho in Oregon, USA…. My question is why even 1 of them were not able to continue the work of Osho which is nothing but pouring ice cold water on a person who is deep asleep…. He obviously didn’t do it to change the entire world. But it is useful for the 1% of the human race who are awakened and are tortured by the majority and the other 1% who were in the middle of the 98% asleep and 1% awake…. The 1%, we could say that they are half asleep and any moment they will be absolutely awake if we join together and do something sensible… I am ready to take on this endeavor and I don’t care about the consequences….. I have found out that this is my life’s purpose….

    Check out my channel on YouTube and contact me and lets get into action my fellow humane beings….

    Thanks for your time….

    Love Happiness Peace is always with U….

    Cheers ~arun

  309. Kranti says:

    ” Avoid those pretenders who decide for you; take the reins in your own hands.
    You have to decide. In fact, in that very decisiveness, your soul is born.
    When others decide for you, your soul remains asleep and dull.
    When you start deciding on your own, a sharpness arises. ” – Osho