It seems odd, for the American authorities to have agreed to a Press Conference in the Mecklenberg County Jail…. Osho is on record as saying he wanted it, and he persuaded the Sheriff who was near retirement, and who liked him, to make it possible. One also thinks that CBS might well have managed to find ways to open the gates, as it was a very big news story around the world at the time… and a scoop for them.
Below Part of Osho’s Interview with Peter Van Sant, (Nightwatch, CBS- TV) in Mecklenburg County Jail (Fall, 1985)
Are you saying that regardless of these charges against you, you will leave the United States?
Yes.. You can see (what is happening) here… This type of behaviour (towards me) – I don’t think this country is for me. …
I love the American Constitution. I love the people of the country, but it seems that the bureaucracy and the politicians are not what they should be.
Osho having his blood pressure taken by the prison nurse
Here (in the jail) I have been treated by the Sheriff and the Nurses very humanely and lovingly. So I love the (American) people. There is no question.
But this kind of treatment – and they have chained my legs when they brought me from the other place to this place, chained my hands, chained my hands to my legs. Every movement was difficult, it was hurting my back. I told them. “You are unnecessarily hurting me”.
And I have not committed any crime.
By deciding to leave America aren’t you giving in?
NO
Isn’t the other side winning?
No.., I don’t accept any kind of uncivilised behaviour,
I was fighting with a democratic government in a democratic way, and I would have loved to fight them all the way tot he Supreme Court – my whole life, there was no problem with fighting.
But if this kind of behaviour happens, then this is NOT a fight. They will kill me, this will not be a fight.
Do you feel that it is someone’s ultimate goal to see you dead?
It seems to be, because what reason is there to keep me here for three days? It was simple – if the Oregon authorities wanted me, I was willing to go immediately. My plane was standing by there on the airport.
If you were convicted on the 35 count indictment and were to receive the maximum sentence, you could face a possibility of one hundred and seventy five years…
That’s okay. That’s okay. There is no problem. IF, and that is a big IF, because I have not committed any crime, so there can be no question of any punishment.
They claim I have committed fraud. They are saying that my health was just an excuse, that I was not sick – but they collected the whole history of my sickness, 800 pages, certificates from all the Doctors that have treated me in India and outside (of India)… … ..
You have been accused in these indictments of setting up phoney marriages so that foreigners who are members of your commune can stay in the United States.
That’s absolutely absurd, because I don’t see sannyasins. I don’t even meet them personally, i don’t even know their names. Except for my personal Secretary I don’t see anybody.
Do you arrange marriages?
No, there is no question. And I don’t even know who is married to whom. I don’t bother.
How would you characterise them, these indictments that have been made against you?
Just that (the US authorities) don’t want me here. And they should have simply said that they don’t want me here. I am a very straightforward man. There is no problem. If they don’t want me here, I don’t want to be an unnecessary, unwelcome guest. I would have left. There is no need to make such a political and legal (thing), and an unnecessary waste of time for me, and for them.
Would you say that the US government has a vendetta against you?
Certainly, because I have been inviting the Governor, the US attorney, (both these have been taiking against me and both have been creating antagonism towards the commune in Oregon) – “Come and see that we are doing, we have nothing against you…”
Have you ever thought about Jayesh’s involvement in that? He seems to be present always when something bad happened (happens) to Osho.
Did you read Jayesh’s story in facebook? He is a real estate gambler.
I knew it, Jayesh did (and does not) not have his own money. He has no taste whatsoever, typical for real estate sales person.
The story was published already in 1997.
They talk about how much electricity bill of the Resort is, while all their luxury hotel bills must be like 10 times more.
Anyway, such childish excuses, trying to get normal people to take sides. I did not want to comment on this ridiculous stuff any more, but it’s just too much.
Fresch, you want to damn Jayesh for being (according to you) ‘ever-present’, yet I’d bet a pound to a penny you’d likewise want to ‘crucify’ him if you thought (likewise, without adequate evidence) he hadn’t been around.
And so what if he’s into real estate? That doesn’t necessarily make him a ‘bad person’!
Your post is too full of prejudiced, specious nonsense to take at all seriously – except as evidence of dangerously flawed bias.
I suggest you begin to address such issues with a greater degree of respect for facts, and far less respect for your purely person-al, self-ish preferences.
It is the easiest thing in the world to scapegoat someone.
For information: Jayesh was himself in prison with the immediate entourage alongside Osho initially. How that makes Jayesh responsible is the worst kind of primitive thinking.
I like the way Osho praised the Sheriff and the nurses at Mecklenburg jail.
It has a very human touch, and shows how ordinary people suddenly caught up in this behaved well. One can see if one enlarges the pic that Osho looks at ease with the nurse and is smiling, though sadly in his prison fatigues.
In hindsight, one can see there may have been another way for Osho’s entourage to handle Osho’s leaving of the Ranch, but hindsight is always deceptive. Who can say what would have played out best, but I suspect a pre-arranged surrender in Portland would have played out best, and an immediate application for bail there. I can only imagine that Fresch, in not a very clear way, is alluding to this.
It is a surprise that a Press Conference was allowed to happen in the jail, though I can see it was in the interests of all Osho lovers, and Osho himself in the circumstances. Osho said all publicity is good in such circumstances.
Certainly in the UK, such a thing would never have been allowed to happen!
Maybe an American cousin can explain why this would have happened in the USA?
I feel it is a good thing from time to time to remind ourselves that Osho was imprisoned and that this happened on specious grounds. It could not have been good for his health at the very least, and there certainly is something symbolic about a government shackling someone who brought so much light into the world.
These Nation States do anything to get their way, and the individual is often swallowed by their false hubris.
Though I don’t go along with everything the US government was supposed to have done, certainly the days Osho spent in jail and in being transferred across the country in and of itself did his health absolutely no good at all – this would apply to a healthy person, let alone someone who already had many physical difficulties and sensitivities.
Parmartha, my feeling is sincere and sensitive seekers like you who invested their innocence in the creation of Rajneeshpuram may not get closure in their heart as there is lot of denial and no inner courage to blame many relevant characters other than Sheela and US administration.
As future has unfolded after Osho’s death, needle of suspicion goes towards Jayesh and Amrito too, and also the inner politics around Osho.
Good man blinded by the folly of others can be true for anyone whose life and work depends upon the fickle element called Trust.
In reference to your topic, I am watching ‘The Orange Is New Black’ (made by same people who made ‘The Weeds’). I totally love it.
You all wrote that this Kirtan player’s 8 months stay in the Ranch was nothing.
I wonder how many months Jayesh was in the Ranch “working assisting in the groups” before he took off with Osho. I am Just interested in the historical timeline.
Fresch, please don’t write such falsities. It’s simply not the case that everyone here wrote that his time at the Ranch “was nothing”. I, for example, emphasised more than once that his stay there was pretty substantial. As did others.
Simulating such basic facts is the first step towards falsifying history, which is one of the human race’s roads to ruin, ie part of the problem, not the solution.
I understand that you are older and I want to respect that. You get comfortable with life and want to conserve everything as it is, even the shit in backyard. Because I am also a trained gardener, I happen to know that compost heap doesn’t work if you do not turn it over and take care of it. But there is life, phosphorus in shit.
That is now happening in sannyas and I could not be happier about it. It’s only matter of seconds to the dawn. We all know it.
Again, Fresch, you assume something on inadequate evidence, creating a skewed and rather patronising picture of me (“I understand that you are older and I want to respect that” – oh, thank you, SO much!), putting me ‘in a box’ that happens to suit your false assumptions!
I’ve never said I totally support the present regime, just as I’ve never said I’m totally against it. I’m open-minded about the fate of Poona, although I remain sceptical re all attempts to restore the ashram to its ‘former glory’, especially if the current ‘pretenders’ take over. You, however, appear simply naïve about that (which hardly surprises me).
The points I made yesterday specifically refer to your wilful manipulation of the facts, taking merely personal assumptions and preferences as the truth, without bothering to properly look into what you were talking about.
And now you’re at it again – in both your above paragraphs. My Gawd, talk about ‘creating one’s own reality’! ‘Fool’s Paradise’ is the phrase that comes to mind here – you seem to be fast asleep and dreaming, “it’s only a matter of seconds to the dawn”…
Future, future, glorious future…
How about Now?!
There is no denying that it is a bummer that a man like Osho was treated in such a way. On the other hand, he was asking for it. Lambasting Ronnie Raygun for years and building up a well-armed force on the Ranch. The place was only zoned for a few people to permanently inhabit and Osho wanted to place thousands of people there. From start to finish, the Ranch was disastrously planned. I don’t think it would be honest to say that Osho was completely unaware of what was taking place around him.
During Poona One Osho often said that he was aware of everything that was taking place on his commune and there existed much evidence to support that. Moves to USA, starts a commune and becomes completely unaware that there are massive fuck-ups going on in the running of his commune. Becomes a victim, no less. Then when the shit hits the fan he cries foul. I am sorry I just cannot go for that. Osho knew much more about the law-breaking that was taking place around him than he ever let on. It wasn’t like he was sitting in an office arranging sham marriages. That is absurd. I am saying he was aware of it and aware of much worse shit going on.
At one point it looked like it might turn into Osho’s last stand, with the savages circling the wagons. My wife and I knew for certain, when we saw sannyasins toting sub-machine guns and wearing fascist-style police hats, that we wanted no part of that crazy scene. Even taking into account that the sannyasins in Oregon were probaly naive enough to take it as good, clean fun and par for the course. How the gentle man that I once knew could have went for such ugly and corny crap like a tin-pot general still makes me shake my head at the thought of it. He was no Patton, even if it was his favourite movie.
Osho loved a good story and he created a good one out of his life, with plenty of twists, turns and sometimes shocking surprises. Really quite remarkable. Just don’t ask me to believe he was innocent of all wrong doing in the sense that he was completely ignorant of what was taking place on his commune. My imagination’s knicker elastic does not stretch to such a ridiculous length.
Brilliant post Lokesh, & hund-red out of hund-red for your story telling s-kills !
I just feel like saying Lord save the Qu-in !
Correction
: is it God save the Queen ?
Cool, Kavita.
Parmartha raises the issues of Rajneeshpuram time and again. Lokesh gives always solid logical reasons to make Osho guilty for acts of omission and commission.
I wish to know, how much Parmartha agrees with them?
Let us presume Osho knew about all the illegal steps to create military cantonment-like atmosphare in the heart of America; question is, why he will allow such things?
A well-read and enlightend man like Him will resort to downright criminal activites; what can be the motive?
Had he forgotten that America is not India?
Incidentally, exactly 30 years ago, Indira Gandhi ordered military troops to storm Sikhism’s holiest shrine to flush out the armed militants which resulted in her own assassination and then one of the worst riots in Indian History.
Osho was well aware about this and even spoke during the Rajneesh Bible lectures?
Question is, why he ignored the power of the State and that too, America?
I am interested, what are Lokesh’s thoughts about this?
Shantam, Osho often said nothing fails lke success. He became a very successful guru and it peaked out in Oregon. It will always remain an enigma what actually happened to him on the Ranch. Going by the numerous accounts I’ve heard from various people, who supplied differant pieces of the info jigsaw, I come to the following conclusions:
Osho’s success came to him as a bit of a failure. He became bored with his creation. He escaped into drugs and, as often happens, it was not very good for him in the long run, to the extent that he lost the plot for a while. How else to explain him pushing Sheela to be even more outrageous etc? It was simply crazy and bound to bring things crashing down around him, by which time he simply no longer cared.
On another level, I think that Osho’s buddhafield dream was not as he imagined it might be. Even with all the shit going on people were becoming complacent and comfortable. Not his way. He decided to pull the carpet out from under everyone’s feet and go back to the drawing board. From what I can gauge he managed to get back on his horse after a nasty fall in Poona 2 and then rode off into the sunset.
Unfortunately, drugs like nitrous combined with downers in copious amounts will not only demand a psychological toll but a physical one also. Osho’s ties to the body were always frail, at least when I knew him. It was shocking and moving to behold. So he managed to damage his body to the point that it was agony to inhabit. He died brilliantly and disappeared forever.
Shantam Prem,
The HEART out of my understanding is an OPEN SOURCE.
You also wrote:
“Good man blinded by the folly of others can be true for anyone whose life and work depends upon the fickle element called Trust.”
I would like to add:
A “good man” blinded by obsession and fanaticism can also appear to “be true
for anyone whose life and work depends on the fickle element called trust.”
And what is TRUST?
Maybe like LIFE´s OPEN SOURCE – not to be measured by outside judgmental approaches.
One can meet wounds one has to face on the way with ever scratching them open again and again.
Or look for another way to heal (beyond scratching and fighting the wound itself).
Madhu
There are many ways to heal the wounds. Biggest courage is to accept the source of wounds. Few wounds are self-inficted, many are created by the white-coloured people.
(MOD: AMADIS HAS TODAY REPLIED TO YOUR QUESTION, What is Self-Realisation? AT THE Spiritual Therapy THREAD).
Shantam, I saw Arun’s picture of him resting on the sofa too. Hilarious. He is doing quite a lot of meditation camps as well. Many kinds of camps, small and big ones.
Shantam,
The depraved, unspiritual whiteman is, as you say, certainly responsible for most of the wounds.
Some are self-inflicted, like the Sikhs and Hindus hacking each other to pieces in the name of religion in their holiest temples, but the whiteman cannot understand what we inheritors of the Indian discovery of enlightenment know.
You certainly had the correct approach in your Pune days…
To avoid the ignorant, arrogant, white male sannyasins for whom sannyas was just a fashion, not like yourself who comes from the very source of where it has been followed for thousands of years, and instead to go for the gorgeous, shiny-skinned white women instead!
To get revenge over the gora by seducing his women must have felt as sweet as drinking mango lassi in Buckingham Palace whilst the Queen of England was giving you the blow job!
Yahoo!
Dear Lokesh,
Whenever you state anything about the Ranch happening,
I would like to remind you, to see anything like in a TV spot from a far away corner is not the same as if you are present – and I am quite sure that ‘otherwise’, you know that.
Madhu
Re entertainment, if you have not watched House of Cards I strongly recommend it. Fantastic insight into American politics and what a dirty game it is. Osho was floating in shark-invested waters when he did his stateside trip. I suspect he never really realised what he’d gotten himself into, before it was too late.
(MOD: SOME EDITING HERE)
I’m sure you’re right, Lokesh, he was simply, in that sense, out of his depth in the States. Which is arguably a major cause of the Ranch’s demise, leading to foolish, irresponsible policies and actions, guaranteed to alienate many Americans, especially the powers-that-be; after which, it was, inevitably, a one-way road to oblivion.
What would an epic story be minus sad and tragic flavours?
Dear Fresch,
You wrote:
“I am Just interested in the historical timeline.”
I feel it’s YOU, yourself, you should be interested IN,
and I wonder what your sharing about looking at these American TV series has to do in that context ?
Madhu
Dear Satyadeva,
One of your questions:
“Had he forgotten that America is not India?” (MOD: THIS IS SHANTAM’S QUESTION, 6.03am TODAY)
As far as I am aware of experiencing Osho,
He was the first Being I was able to meet who was, in His body-time, what I call a universal ‘citizen’, if we can say ‘citizen’ at all.
He did not only (seemingly) contradict any way, any day a-new
and not intentionally just for the purpose to mad-den an audience
(at least I saw it that way).
I don´t know if you remember in the movie ‘Zorba The Greek’ – the old version – the scene where both the men had built a thoroughly ingenious construction, for a business, to get big, big tree trunks down the mountain to the sea?
And how all that crashed and – what a failure!
And then the shock and deep silence…
and then this dance of all dances, in the midst of the fact
that everything they had been up to had been lost in a minute
(the immense amount of money just one aspect of the loss!).
This is not a ‘Zorba the Buddha’ flatliner from my side here,
as I every so often still look back in pain and lose my dance.
Also, whenever I am reminded that so many (for me) very painful issues
I simply couldn´t have been aware of, happened behind the screens, so to say; yet – also in this random role, I took heavy blows.
So, I feel, everybody here, like me too, has his or her very individual
exquisite
unique
meditation issues -
and I guess, that has always been that way.
I will have an ice tea today – it such hot weather – like in the deep south.
How are you?
Also, how is everybody of the small gathering here?
Love,
Madhu
Uups…Satyadeva,
should I say sorry?
Yes, I do herewith.
A little bit ´Zorba the Greek´ powder in straight English tea though,
may be not so bad after all?
Madhu
Well, Madhu, there’s a time and place for everything….
Maddie says, “Osho was the first Being I was able to meet who was, in His body-time, what I call a universal ‘citizen’.”
Maddie, you need to get out more and meet more people. There are lots of us universal citizens visiting the planet right now.
Lokesh, I totally agree with you when you say, “I am saying he (Osho) was aware of it and aware of much worse shit going on”, but perhaps for different reasons.
I do not think you writing about the Ranch is insightful or honest. You are always just trying to enforce prejudices on Osho, either taking laughing gas or now about the guns too. How can you explain your total blindness and actually hypocritical silence about Gurdjieff being a total drunk? Also, you must be very well aware of so many people’s very bad comedowns after their Papaji experience. I am personally not judging Gurdjieff or Papaji for anything, because the path is dangerous. So, pls be real. And Osho is 100 times Gurdjieff and Papaji. So, why not enquire about the dangers of going instead of projecting them on to Osho?
However, Loki, ‘House of Cards’ is good (better than ‘Patton’), the same leela.
SD and Maddie, there is a lot of life happening inside, outside. The other night I went to an art exhibition with my artist sannyasin friend. There were perhaps 500 paintings from different professional artists, about less than 50 were on the wall and the rest of them were on the floor leaning against the walls (so that you could not see them if you did not pick them out). One of her paintings was on the wall and I must say, to me it really was from a different world compared to other paintings.
Now, you think I loved it because she is my friend. Partly true, at least if I think with my mind. However, the most incredible thing happened when I was walking around watching paintings and stopped to pick up one on the floor. So out of 500 paintings I picked her painting, without seeing it before. Some might want to make a scientific test if I could do it again. I do not think so, love and connection happens spontaneously, not when you try to prove it.
Fresch, please explain what relevance this story has to anything I’ve written here.
SD, I am looking in, but I also have life to live. Inside, outside.
Oh, really? How unusual.
Fresch, if it is personal insight and honesty you want, try this on for size.
I rarely read any of your comments because there is little that you can lend me in terms of insight. In other words, I am not very interested in what you have to say for yourself or in reading your misinterpretations of my comments either. I’ll be honest and tell you that I will make a point of not reading any of your comments from now on.
I think your above paragraph beginning, “I do not think” etc. is utter shite and shows your lack of understanding of different sannyasins’ perceptions of Osho.
I never met Gurdjieff, but I did learn a lot from him. The fact that he was an alcoholic doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Same goes for Osho doing the jumping jack flash or Papaji dressing up as a gopi. They were all great men and did their dance.
Shantam et al:
I simply want to remind people that Osho was in custody, I think for 20 days, and like any other jail experience it was very unpleasant, and uncalled for. I sometimes feel it is forgotten.
He left the USA on an Alford plea, which basically says he denies any wrongdoing whatsoever. To me, the way he was treated stands as a major injustice still.
The handling by his minders of his exit from America could have been handled differently and would then have been less adventitious, but who knows really how things would have worked out in Portland? Had he surrendered in Portland then at least the whole legal apparatus which was already in place could have been activated.
I stand by my earlier statement that Osho brought so much light into the world, and it is fear of such people, from Mansoor, to Jesus, to Rumi’s teacher, that they get hounded by the powers-that-be at any given time.
I myself don’t see the Ranch as some kind of enormous failure, there was much good in what happened there for the ordinary citzen/sannyasin, and frankly, most people who lived there or visited had no idea until September, 1985 that anything really untoward was going down.
I don’t accept that Osho knew very much about what was happening – and this is born out by the fact that Sheela and her gang had secretly bugged Osho’s own room, and also his caretaker’s. If he was part of the whole criminal enterprise, why do that?
Problem with Sannyasins in general is quite simple:
They accept that we commit adultery, they accept we can cheat without feeling guilty. They can accept we will die sooner or later, but it is almost impossible to accept that WE ALSO PLAY POLITICS AND AROUND OSHO THERE WAS MUCH INNER POLITICS, PALACE INTRIGUES.
This continues till now…
It is the fault-line in our belief that others are assholes and we are not.
Everybody has one.
It is natural, denial creates abnormalites.
Problem with Shantam Chuddie Filler in general is quite simple:
He accepts that we commit adultery, he accepts we can cheat without feeling guilty. He can accept we will die sooner or later, but it is almost impossible for him to accept that he ALSO PLAYS POLITICS AND AROUND OSHO THERE WAS MUCH INNER POLITICS, PALACE INTRIGUES.
This continues till now…
It is the fault-line in Shantam Chuddie Filler that others are assholes and he is not.
Everybody has one.
It is natural, denial creates abnormalites.
Arps, I do believe you and El Chudburger said exactly the same thing within a relatively short period of time. Would you say that some kind of synchronicity is at play?
I will meditate on this question and get back to you.
If you enter no-mind I hope you can remember why you went to meditate.
Well, I’ve meditated on this question and I suggest you re-read the two posts.
The post from El Chudburger is, as always, El Chudburger projecting himself onto everybody else, and my post is about El Chudberger, aka Shantam Chuddie Filler.
Awwwww…now I get it…thanks for clarifying.
Yes, bhai,
you have spoken wisely:
“they are assholes and we are not.”
“the whiteman is the source of the wounds”-
so true.
These fools do not understand.
Osho was not teaching meditation and self-awareness but rather was instructing in the ancient ways of true religion.
Politics is the very necessary thing, along with adultery and cheating without conscience!
And if it is necessary to fight with swords at the holiest shrine to get hold of the microphone, then true understanding of Osho’s vision can be achieved.
But first we will have to hand over total control of Osho’s work to an obscure Swiss lawyer and follow the deep insight of Swami Keerti, who is calling for the help of the Indian government to deal with these corrupt foreigners.
If anyone can deal with corruption, forgery and worse, it is them.
Don’t forget, Modi is a disciple of Amma and Kirti is also a fan of hers!
The future is bright, bhai!
May the level of your consciousness continue to shine out for all to see!
Yahoo!
Osho!
Yahoo!
The day you ever provide convincing evidence of genuine, meditative self-enquiry, Shantam, ie of the basic intelligence expected of a sannyasin or fellow-traveller, will be the day I might take what you say without several thimblefuls of coke (metaphorically speaking, of course) – or, as Madhu suggests, of ‘Zorba the Buddha’ powder with my tea…
Until then, no chance.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to have a celebratory dance outside my local timber yard in Kentish Town….
Man is a political animal. Simple fact.
And very few live beyond politics, but it is true that many deny they are political, but it is a vain denial.
I do see in the lives of those few commonly called enlightened a certain ‘innocence’ and what I take as having gone beyond politics, that is why some of their actions seem ‘not of this world’.
SD and others sometimes talk of Osho being naive. Maybe that is really an acquired innocence, a recapturing of what it is to be a young child, the second birth of enlightenment.
As for Osho Palace politics, well, certainly Shantam is in no position to condemn that, as he and his friends are very much part of that.
This might irritate some anti-Indian sannyasins, but what is the story of Buddha resting on the sofa? Even I have one of those small statues.
Btw, my son said to me today, “Do not be fresh!” I was like, “What?” He did not have time to explain, but it was not a positive comment. I might change my name here soon.
Accept that politics is a necessary evil and create better than others’, healthier than others’ politics.
Lokesh, you are superglued to the belief that Osho ‘lost the plot’ in Oregon, and also to the belief that it was so ‘wrong’ that he was using nitrous oxide. God knows why he was taking it, but I’m sure for him it was just another experience, like taking a bath or drinking a cup of tea, which he also did every day.
From my point of view, it was all experienced from the Vastness he was in, and there was no right or wrong. Just like the whole play that was happening on the Ranch. We had to experience it, didn’t we, all the dirty games ego can play on a large scale, including being victimised by it!
If you still see it as ‘He lost the plot’ then you probably see in the turmoil of today’s world that God in this also has lost the plot, but the question is: is this true?
Karima, appointing someone like Sheela and remaining silent when she went about her ridiculously and ultimately dangerously provocative behaviour towards America, locally and nationally, is what I’d term naively foolish, evidence that he wasn’t ideally suited to conditions in the West, notwithstanding that inner “Vastness”.
Sure, lessons were – hopefully – learned, as in any worldly failure, but if you’re suggesting any deliberate intent on Osho’s part to allow such a failure to take place in order to provide what he regarded as ‘necessary psycho-spiritual teaching’ then you’re on very shaky ground.
Indeed, one of the key lessons to emerge from the Ranch was that an individual, however enlightened, does not ‘know everything’, is not without flaws, is not ‘infallible’. And if you haven’t got that one, then you’ve missed something pretty big.
You discuss Osho’s work like a teacher discussing a pupil’s work, pronouncing on the marks you are giving him, and why.
Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh
Annual school report
Summer term, 1985
English: Must brush up on his tendency to leave out indefinite articles.
History: Really needs to stick to the facts a little more.
Religious Studies: Excellent, if a little unorthodox.
Chemistry: Must try harder, the world is made up of more than just nitrogen and oxygen.
Geography: Rather slow. it has taken him 4 years to find out where the Redneck Riviera is.
Philosophy: Challenging. Has driven his professors out of their minds on numerous occasions.
Phys Ed: Bone idle. Just sits in his room all day doing nothing. Waving his arms about for a few minutes in the evening is just not enough.
Politics: Lamentably naïve and misguided.
Dance: A bit wobbly, but the rest of the class seem to find it entertaining.
Theatre and Drama: Definitely.
Driving: Very poor.
Media Studies: Needs to grasp that not all publicity is good publicity.
Film Studies: Really must learn to branch out a bit.
Citizenship: Doesn’t seem to be taking the subject seriously at all.
Headmaster’s Report:
All in all, it is sad and disappointing to see someone who showed so much early promise failing so badly. He seems to have lost his enlightenment completely this term and his disruptive behaviour, practical jokes, poor choice of friends and substance abuse have offended almost everyone who has come into contact with him.
This leaves expulsion as the only option.
Frank, that is a very amusing comment.
ta.
And it would appear, Arpana, that you don’t like hearing it so straight, as if you prefer to obscure certain apparently unpalatable issues behind a curtain of pseudo-spiritual ‘inscrutable mysteriousness’.
Well, everyone likes their illusions, I guess – and very seductive they are….
Write out, 5000 times:
‘I must guard against any tendency to insist on my guru being perfect in every way and never making any mistakes, even when dealing with tricky and unfamiliar situations in a totally foreign country, for which nothing in his past experience had prepared him.
I must never confuse this universal human fallibility re ‘externals’ with evidence that he isn’t as enlightened as I’d ideally prefer him to be. I must realise that if I insist on holding on to such a personal preference I am doing so in order to somehow protect a precious yet very vulnerable part of myself, which might be understandable, but which is not really ultimately necessary and might even become a handicap to simply seeing things as they are.’
By the way, Arpana, the er, Headless Head has been asked to be kept informed about this and your lines are to be handed in to Mr Frank’s office by 4pm Friday.
And I’m not listening to any “But, sirs”, just get on with it, boy! Who knows, you just might find it ‘enlightening’….
Truth is not at the other end of a hammer, and you behave like a teacher, using every ounce of force you can muster and get away with, to impose your view, your will, and shut discourse down that goes against your view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory
To me, Arpana, the violence of your reaction suggests I might just have hit a particularly vulnerable spot. Otherwise, you’d simply shrug your shoulders or laugh it off, call me a nutter, or something.
I wonder exactly what you find so offensive as what I wrote there doesn’t question Osho’s enlightenment, the “vastness” (as Karima said) of his consciousness at all, merely a certain concept of enlightenment, of the ‘awakened’ being, apparently held by yourself and more than a few others around Sannyas, whereby the ‘realised one’ is deemed incapable of making an error, of getting things wrong, of being ill-informed, of making a poor decision, and so on.
I mean, are such devotees (if that’s the right word, I don’t know) prepared to believe that in EVERY SINGLE MATTER, the master knows everything and can do no wrong? A moment of reflection reveals the absurdity of such an idea, doesn’t it? Would they expect him to win every chess game, know how to cook a three-course meal, know what someone had recently said to someone else looking after his room, know from experience what he had never experienced, except through books and films, etc. etc?
When you really look at it, isn’t such a concept of the master rather childish? Note, Arpana, I’m not in any way saying that any master is therefore a ‘fake’, but that he/she has a level of unparalleled expertise in the inner world, ie sheer ‘mastery’, with which they’re gifted enough to offer help to others who want it, which is almost certainly – especially with Eastern teachers – not equalled by any worldly expertise they might possess.
You and others seem to find that unacceptable and so resort to inventing inscrutable schemes and hidden purposes that lay behind outer appearances of apparent failure. With you now citing the ‘Black Swan’ effect, similarly inscrutable, unpredictable factors that I disagree could realistically be applied to the events at the Ranch. For a start, even 6000 miles away, one could see fairly early on that the PR policy was an absolute disaster, far too aggressively and arrogantly elitist, far too confrontational and almost bound to get Americans’ backs up.
To me, a response like yours resembles the response of the citizens lining the streets in the old fable, ‘The Emperor’s New Clothes’, where only a small boy had the innocent clarity to tell it how it was, that the king was naked!
Why accept convoluted complication, why not just see it how it simply is? Well, it’s pretty obvious, isn’t it, that that would be exiting a certain ‘comfort zone’, which for some personal reason you prefer to be in?
To me, Satyadeva, the violence of your reaction suggests I might just have hit a particularly vulnerable spot.
A clichéd, trite reaction, Arpana, suggesting you either have no adequate answer and/or are unwilling to really see and respond to what I’m saying.
Still, it’s your freedom to arrange your thoughts, concepts, beliefs and values however you wish, as we all do, although as we all know by now – don’t we? – such internal ‘maps’ aren’t guaranteed to accurately reflect ‘reality’ – and some a lot less than others.
How come? Emotionalised bias, what’s ‘comfortable’ for our particular psyche, what ‘agrees’ with our perceived internal needs. Not ‘rocket science’, is it?
I suggest, Arpana, that your personal need to see Osho in a certain way is driving your point of view here. In a way, nothing ‘wrong’ with that, if it helps you move towards your true freedom, liberation from whatever psychic load you’ve been carrying, which such beliefs certainly can.
For instance, I’m in touch with an old friend I used to know as a boy and teenager, whom until three or four years ago I hadn’t seen or heard from since then. I remember him suffering dreadful trauma as a boy and two ‘nervous breakdowns’ when 15, causing him to leave school and study at home. He was a very fearful chap, although also someone whose company I enjoyed, as we had quite a lot in common. Well, he made it to university and there ‘got religion’ in a very big way, eventually even becoming a priest and ‘Doctor of Theology’ – sheer anathema, perhaps, to the ‘conventional sannyasin mind’ (!).
But the point is, meeting him after all those years I see that he’s a transformed man, free of that crippling neurotic illness that had so blighted his earlier life, an obviously happy family man, fulfilled in his work and living with a certain joy and purpose. It’s indeed a remarkable change, although for me, it’s based on false beliefs and concepts.
So, in the context of mental health, it doesn’t really matter what you believe or take to be true, as long as it ‘does the job’. Yet still, what is true for you, Arpana, isn’t necessarily true for others, or even ‘the truth’ itself, hence this current dispute.
A clichéd, trite reaction, SatyDeva, suggesting you either have no adequate answer or are unwilling to really see and respond to what I’m saying; and exactly what I expected
If you actually bothered to read what I’ve written, Arpana, then you might see how inappropriate is your reaction. Unless you insist on remaining blind, closed – like any fundamentalist feeling his belief system is being ‘threatened’.
Just now, btw, I’ve added to what I wrote earlier.
If you actually bothered to read what I’ve written, Satya Deva, then you might see how inappropriate is your reaction.
MOD: OK, I THINK WE GET THE PICTURE. PLEASE REVERT TO RELEVANT COMMENTS.
Satyadeva, here is the reasoning from my point of view:
Oregon was a replica of this 3rd dimensional world at large, which has the energies of light and dark, or good and bad if you like, they are each one side of the same coin. One side isn’t better than the other. When you are truly Realised, as Osho, then you know this with your whole Being, because you are neither, you have transcended both, and yet…this is the paradox, you still live in a physical body with certain limitations, but are not bothered by them, ’cause the body is in You. So the whole belief system that goes with the identification of the body-mind, the notions of good or bad are gone.
So, I’m sure Osho knew perfectly well all the ‘bad’ things that were going on at the Ranch, but because He was incapable of seeing them as ‘bad’ and the Divine doesn’t interfere, because He has given us free will, he let it be and let it evolve in its own organic way, up to a point (he told so Himself) when he started giving lectures again and talking about what was going on. He gave us a long, long rope out of compassion, to let us experience utter failure.
And apparently, if you want to realise who you are the little I has to know total failure. In my understanding, that’s the task of a real master.
Karima presents a very lofty perspective which leaves me thinking she is a dreama.
“When you are truly Realised, as Osho…?” On what authority can you speak of such matters, Karima? This all sounds a bit bookish…were you good at doing your homework as a child? I ask because it looks like you are still keeping up the practice…sounds too good to be true. But you can have a gold star in your report card anyway, for presentation
“You still live in a physical body with certain limitations, but are not bothered by them.” Is this Karima’s existential experience? I doubt it. Was it Osho’s experience. I doubt it. Probably Arps can find a quote about Osho having gone through hell in his body towards the end of his life. Strange to say, I can dig that because it is so utterly human…something I can relate to in human terms.
What Karima describes is more like a Ramana Maharshi scenario. Something which I dig, because it is something to aspire to, but I am not there yet. In my book it’s best not to kid yourself about such matters. Great to read about not being attached to the body, yet I’ll bet my last euro Karima has not reached that point in the dream.
Karima concludes that God has given us free will.
Which sets off a loop in my head concerning something Ramana is reported to have said:
You only have two choices in life and that is whether or not to accept that everything in life is preordained. Absolute classic koan from a master!
My conclusion is that Karima knows what she is talking about but is not actually coming from a place of understanding.
Lokesh, I said it was my point of vieuw, if I had the whole view I probably wouldn’t be bothered to write here. Yes, my mind wants to understand, probably till its last breath, and there is insight, but the mind hobbles behind it with interpretation.
On the other hand, nothing wrong with expressing it if you can see it as a layer, ready to shed for the next one. Ideally, I would like to use SN for this, not just for exchanging points of view about things that happened in the past, which you cannot change anyway, but more as an inquiry into Truth, and the expression of it is for each of us different, isn’t it?
As I see SN now, it’s used mostly as a forum to do verbal encounter. In my book, it doesn’t show much awareness when certain people, including you, Lokesh, always have to address Shantam with some nickname and always ridicule him. Mostly, I do not agree with him either, but if I would ridicule him for that then I lower myself to his viewpoint.
And last but not least, every interpretation you wrote about me is about yourself, but you probably know that already.
I understand what you’re saying here, Karima, but the problem with this interpretation though is first, that Osho wasn’t just a mere ‘spectator’, for example he was the one who chose to appoint Sheela in the first place, so must bear responsibility for that choice and for its effects. If he was ‘one with Life’, the ‘Servant’ of Life Itself’, as it were, then Life made an extremely odd decision there, didn’t it?!
Sure, perhaps one can say ‘nothing matters’ from the point of view of the Divine and as Osho himself said, when back in India, I think it was, “Nothing matters except my Silence”. Yet somewhere along the line, this point of view doesn’t really hold water, even from a common sense angle. It presupposes his total lack of involvement, which, as noted above, wasn’t exactly the case, and neither was it the case when he finally chose – or was rather forced into it by events – to come out and talk to his bewildered and hard-pressed people.
If, as you say, he knew exactly what was going down there, all the time, then it looks a rather strange, self-defeating, almost masochistic decision not to take the relatively simple actions to set things straight, doesn’t it?
What you’re saying implies that he and ‘Life itself’ preferred that the whole enterprise failed, that the opportunity Oregon presented to demonstrate something extraordinary to the world was worth less than getting his people to experience failure – for their own ultimate good.
That’s the sort of outlook I’ve been arguing against with Arpana, which prefers a highly ‘spiritualised’ version of events where it’s inconceivable, given the set of beliefs underpinning this view of the master, that he could ever ‘get things wrong’.
Whereas nearer to the truth, for me, is that he was perhaps somewhat out of his depth in these sort of affairs, and prone to misjudge the vehemence of the American State towards those – especially ‘outsiders’ and foreigners – that dare to challenge its authority. In other words, “Realised”, “One with God”, however you want to describe him, he wasn’t really in his element when coping with ‘the world’ in certain situations for which he was seemingly unprepared.
I am not suggesting Osho is so perfect he can not make a mistake.
I am suggesting that not even Osho is capable of micromanaging projects this big, so that nothing difficult happens.
I surmise that ‘Black Swan’ events happen round him at an unusual rate. Positive and negative ‘Black Swan’ events.
I surmise that he knew that and tried to work with it, rather than not do anything to make sure nothing bad happens.
I surmise he functions from, and made decisions of the nature of what are the least bad of available options here at this time.
Browbeating people, as you are now doing to Karima, so you have the last word, does not make you right, or perfect, or wise.
Arpana, something in your make-up is really rather out of kilter if you consider that my response to Karima’s post constitutes “browbeating”!
Moreover, do I not have the right to reply to anyone’s response to my comments? Who the hell are you to want to deny me that right anyway?
Perhaps you find it difficult to argue convincingly, I don’t know, but as far as I’m concerned I’ll write what I want, when I want, to whoever I choose to, without considering your apparently ultra-delicate sensibilities.
Basically, Arpana, isn’t the bottom line here that you feel somehow disturbed, ‘threatened’ by my questioning the basis of certain aspects of your dearly-held personal ‘version’ of Osho?
I’ll just leave that for you to mull over (or, more likely, dismiss, in contemptuous rage?), I’ve already made my point about it all today.
Browbeating people, so you have the last word, does not make you right, or perfect, or wise.
Another inappropriately irrelevant comment, Arpana. It’s simply a matter of responding to someone’s comments, no more, no less. Or are you trying to tell me I have no right to do that? That sort of attitude bothers me a lot more than any possible ‘flaw’ in your spiritual belief system.
Again, I suggest you look and see where my comments have hit a nerve in you and see how and why that is. It’s not really that difficult, is it?
Alternatively, we can always start a ‘religious war’, of course…Apparently, it’s quite the fashion these days…See you in Iraq, perhaps?!
Another inappropriately irrelevant comment, Satya Deva.
A lazy, robotic reaction from someone who appears to have no adequate answer.
(Perhaps you’re busy writing out your lines)….
Satya Deva, something in your make-up is really rather out of kilter
Satya Deva. A typical lazy, robotic reaction from someone who appears to have no adequate answer.
MOD: AS YESTERDAY, LET’S MOVE ON INTO THE TOPIC.
Arpana, I read much of the ‘Black Swan’ book a few years ago, and yes, it’s very interesting, reminiscent at times of Rupert Sheldrake’s concept of morphic resonance, although I question whether one can realistically apply its ideas and insights to the events at Rajneeshpuram.
Perhaps you’d care to illustrate your ideas about this with actual examples, otherwise it sounds again rather like another attempt to explain away a massive failure by ‘spiritualising’ (to coin a phrase) the situation, so that no one, least of all, Osho, bears any responsibility or – dare I say the word? – blame.
Good post, SD.
Lokesh and SD have one thing in common, they went their way once Osho started attracting more people.
They have some synchronicity to protect each other and prove themselves right.
Few people don’t lose any money in casino yet want to feel like, Only losers win the game.
Clever chaps in a way. Head is mine, tail too.
Total bullshine, Shantam. The truth is Lokesh and I had very different experiences, both in and outside sannyas, and we speak as individuals, not as a ‘duo’.
Keep to the facts rather than using your imagination to invent what happens to suit your personal agenda.
Shantam, why do you think I have dubbed you El Chudo?
Satyadeva, I see a desire to bite into the belief that my point of view is better then yours, ha,ha,ha. The other side is: I read and respect your point of vieuw, and still I want to dig a bit deeper:
Ultimately, it was not only Osho’s responsibility ( if there was some leftover karma on his behalf) but also our responsiblity; we had and always have the free choice between God or mind. On the Ranch, representing Osho and Sheela. Sheela (the mind) was so cunning that she pretended she was Osho’s voice!
But still it happened as it happened, all our opnions won’t change that! What I learned from it that the need for control and power is also in me, no need to blame Sheela for it. And no need to blame Osho for letting Sheela do her ‘thing’, I still see it as the ultimate compassion.
No problem with your general view on shared responsibility, Karima.
My point though essentially concerns a certain view (even a ‘concept’) of the master that seems fairly common, where people will apparently believe anything, however unlikely or unprovable in order that he might emerge, in their minds, from any situation where he might be deemed, shall we say, less than competent, ‘untainted’ by suggestions of ‘failure’, of ‘inadequacy’.
I’m afraid I’d also include in this category, which we might term ‘neo-spiritual rationalisation’, your citing of “ultimate compassion” as a prime reason for his actions and inaction in Oregon. Appointing and keeping on Sheela as “ultimate compassion”? That’s really very hard to swallow.
I maintain that this is due to a purely person-al, self-ish (ie self-created, self-serving) need to hold a certain image of the master, one that serves the person-al interests and self-perceived emotional well-being of the people concerned. I wonder if you can see this in yourself, Karima? Some, like Arpana, appear to feel so threatened by this notion that they can barely contain their rage – which to me indicates I might be on the right lines.
I’m also saying that this concept is flawed because it fails to differentiate between the pure consciousness of the master, his inner ‘perfection’, and his capacity for dealing with aspects of ‘outer reality’, particularly worldly situations of which he might well have had little or no experience, a prime example of which is glaringly obvious: Osho in America and all that entailed, all he came up against.
I see no problem here, no undermining of the master’s mastery WHERE IT REALLY COUNTS, which is in his capacity to lead us within. Although, the vulnerable child in us might wish it weren’t so, if we’re looking to him for total perfection, total mastery of both inner and outer worlds, then we’re in for an extremely long wait…
In that sense, I suggest it’s time to grow up and discard improbable, convoluted theories and explanations in favour of simply seeing things as they are, however ‘disturbing’ that might possibly be to one’s inner ‘comfort zone’. We have a choice: ‘comfortable’, comforting illusion or possibly ‘uncomfortable’, challenging truth?
(See you in Church, 11am Sunday, ok?)
Thank you, Satyadeva, it’s an interesting topic, isn’t it? Maybe we could have a thread: can an enlightened being make mistakes, and are they beyond saying ‘sorry’?
What to say, it’s not what you think, that I want to hold on to some pure image of Osho, to be honest I don’t consider Osho as my master any more, but I’ll always be grateful that in his Presence there were the first openings.
So in your opinion he should have acted differently, should have stopped Sheela doing more damage, in other words he should have controlled her. Well, control was not his way, was it? Somebody who wants to control in my vieuw is not enlightened, he might have had an awakening experirence, but the ego then grabs it and uses it to its advantage. And I don’t consider Osho belonged to that category; as far as I understand He went with the flow of Existence, whatever the cost.
I had to laugh a bit when you wrote, “Life through Osho made an extremely odd decision”….Yes, and I still believe he could only surrender to that, whatever the consequenses. Didn’t he give a perfect example to use for us when life confronts us with odd decisions?
Well, Karima, to me you’re again succumbing to ‘spiritual rationalisations’. Osho had a fair input, I’m sure, as to how the Pune ashram was run, making sure, for example, that there were enough rules to keep things running smoothly, no mean feat for a large number of different types of people who could be prone to rather ‘volatile’ behaviour at times. And quite a few found certain ‘authoritarian’ aspects of the place hard to bear, or even unacceptable. In that sense, ‘control’ was certainly his way, although in such a situation there can realistically be no alternative, if common sense is any criterion.
And he – not ‘God’, or ‘Existence’ – appointed Sheela. To suggest otherwise is stretching the limits of credibility – and gullibility, frankly. Perhaps you haven’t come across anecdotes from people who lived close to him and were subject to his ‘peccadilloes’ and personal preferences? If you had, then I doubt you’d be so keen to identify all he ever was and did with the ‘will of God’, with ‘Life Itself’!
The thing is, you can’t have it both ways, either he was ALWAYS, IN EVERY ACT AND SITUATION, a ‘channel’ for ‘Life Itself’, or he was that and also a human person, with personal wishes, personal preferences, who made decisions that might or might not turn out for the best. An “ordinary man”, as he so often said, but with an extraordinary self-knowledge, who lived in “Vastness”, yes, but who also had a human brain and a human personality. Just like other masters in fact.
What about his use of Nitrous Oxide, for example? ‘Existence’/'Life Itself’ getting high, ‘ordinary reality’ somehow not good enough? Or just a man taking time out to relieve boredom and/or get some physical pain relief, along the way demonstrating that he was not a ‘Saviour’ or conventionally ‘respectable’, or anything other than fallibly ‘ordinary’ (or whatever other motive one might come up with)?
Karima, don’t be so cruel. El Chudo was not breast-fed as a baby and had to do wih a holy cow’s udder. Coupled with the fact that at an early age he fell out of the Golden Temple’s highest spire and landed on his head, leaving him with permo brain damage which causes a massive need for attention in any form, so you can’t take away all the ridicule he receives on SN. The poor wee soul would be left devastated. Have you no compassion?
Karima, I can’t take any of it seriously. Laughing gas is a naff drug and I am surprised that Osho got so into it. Who was getting high? Beats me and I really don’t care. We can have a laugh and scratch our heads in puzzlement but it is all history now.
Shantam,
there were lessons from the Ranch, my small preoccupation is that many never seemed to learn the lessons and then bring it into whatever followed by way of Sannyas organisation!
And this continues to this day! In my book, to make the same mistake twice is pretty damn stupid.
By the way, Lokesh has been a very good supporter of SN over many years and this has been much appreciated.
On the Ranch and Osho at that time, he and I just have to agree to disagree…
I would only say that as far as I know, Lokesh never visited the Ranch and never was interested to do so. Therefore he can never really be seen as an ‘authority’ on that period of history.
True, PM, I had no desire to visit the Ranch. I was pretty active on the sannyas scene on Ibiza at the time and even on such a wee geographical spot it was easy to see the rot had set in.
“Lokesh never visited the Ranch and never was interested to do so. Therefore he can never really be seen as an ‘authority’ on that period of history.”
With the above logic, in a way, you have to give my posts that position of being authentic and authoritative narration of that historical phase of Osho’s work called Pune 2 and its subsequent downward whirl afterwards.
On the other side, one cannot ignore Lokesh’s blunt and non-emotional observation. Somewhere, something went unexpectedly wrong with Osho’s Sannyas movement. It is no harm to look at the causes and systematic leakages.
Blame just on Sheela I think is unfair and far away from truth. It is a multi-organ failure.
Osho as single human being with divine presence has given His best, bester and the bestest.
I have to admit that it is embarrassing to find myself agreeing with parts of El Chudo’s above statement. Osho’s commune was pyramidical in structure. A hierarchy was put more and more in place as greater numbers of sannyasins required a greater element of control. Otherwise it would have been a mess.(which is how it turned out anyway in my opinion). Unfortunately, some of those chosen to form part of the upper pyramid were, let us say, a wee bit confused.
Osho, from my own experience, could read you like a book. His perception was such that he could see right through the facade and penetrate one’s essential state of being…in say 20 seconds. Which brings into question why he would choose a damaged person like Sheela to run the show. Ultimately, it was his responsibility. He was always in charge so, as I said earlier, a bit flakey crying foul when the shit hit the fan.
Submitted on 2014/06/12 at 2:55 pm | In reply to shantam prem.
“With the above logic, in a way, you have to give my posts that position of being authentic and authoritative narration of that historical phase of Osho’s work called Pune 2 and its subsequent downward whirl afterwards.”
Not necessarily, Shantam. If Lokesh’s views lack ‘final authority’ due to his not being on the spot at the time, it doesn’t follow that someone else who was there is bound to deliver the ‘real deal’. That person might not be ‘a reliable witness’, for various reasons, including, for example, an excess of subjective bias.
And your suggestion becomes even more contentious when it relates to a totally different set of circumstances in Poona, significantly different, in fact, from those in the USA.
We all know that period was special for you (the best time of your life?) but that in itself might conceivably have blinded you (and might still blind you) to aspects of the whole picture – the ‘rose (or was it ‘rainbow’)-coloured specs’ syndrome. And by inserting “in a way” maybe you sense this yourself?
Not that you haven’t a worthwhile story to tell, but I wonder how free it is from that enemy of truth, nostalgia, which, especially that of the middle-aged and elderly for their youth and 20′s, can easily tend to elicit certain kinds of memories to serve its particular self-serving agenda.
Let us presume, Rajneeshpuram foundation were strong, it could survive crisis and turned them into opportunites.
Parmartha can tell what would have been the shape after Master’s demise. Let us presume Osho had not left the body in 1990 in Pune, but 2000 in Rajneeshpuram?
Sooner or later, disciples were suppose to take the reins. Chosen few were supposed to lead the show.
When one sees the reality of here and now sannyas, every debacle looks like divine intervention. Sannyasins can be the passangers in the bus, train or plane but they know only how to drive their bicycle. Most of the sannyas ideas are whimsical; almost like believing, ‘Ayurvedic Massage with awareness is the cure for all the complex sicknesses.’
I expect, Shantam, you will be as usual watching the World Cup tonight, and tucking into a takeaway chicken and chips, and continuing with your multi-tasking, writing on SN…a bit of a solitary and maybe sad life for someone who spends his days lauding a possible commune run by your mates.
I have never decried your experience of living in Pune 2/3. I am not even sure what dates you actually lived there. Were you a commune worker? Would be interested in you detailing your experience as you seem very fond of knowing everyone else’s.
I have no idea of what Rajneeshpuram would have become, had it been run in a clean way. I suspect boring and autocratic. There would have still been problems with the locality, they would not have wanted us there whatever clean living image we pursued.
You seem to think the collapse of the Ranch was some kind of bad experience for me. Not at all. I am glad it happened, as whatever the claimed great things that happen in a Buddhafield, spiritual life is not really about just being in some kind of big protective group, however wonderful the energy.
My interest is more of that an old detective, I just wanted to know what really went down during those four years as I was around and in it.
I feel I am pretty close to knowing that now, when even seven years ago I didn’t know so much. Some of that knowledge has been the result of preparing and discussing articles etc. for SN and what others have written here.
Charisma and Abdication: A Study of the Leadership of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh’ Susan J. Palmer Dawson College, Montreal, PQ.
http://www.unil.ch/webdav/site/issrc/shared/8._Telechargement/Cours_BA_automne_2012/Texte_Palmer-2.pdf
Satyadeva,
quoting from your post just now, just this:
“Otherwise, you’d simply shrug your shoulders or laugh it off, call me a nutter, or something.”
Response from ‘otherwise’- Madhu:
There´s nothing in the today´s riot-like encounters I can shrug my shoulders about, not even the faintest ripple of laughing it off, and I don´t call you a nutter either –
but say that the whole wave is simply ´off the wall´ and really disgusting and has a flavour of meanness too.
I address you within that, because the utter sharpness of your comments come with the energy of utter arrogance and vanity – and don´t really leave …………………………………………………SPACE………………………………………………………..
YET –
the issues touched I feel very essential and important.
As my day today has been very exhausting by trying so badly to digest too much other heavy stuff that is happening,
on the personal as on the beyond personal stuff,
just this feedback now
and when I say, come to your SENSES, I mean it!
Madhu
PS:
And I will comment on the issue when having had night-SILENCE.
My question still remains unanswered. This is a blog, Shantam, not a soapbox.
We are meant to discuss things and through that be open to other’s views, etc.
Here is my question to you again:
“I have never decried your experience of living in Pune 2/3. I am not even sure what dates you actually lived there. Were you a commune worker? Would be interested in you detailing your experience as you seem very fond of knowing everyone else’s.”
December 1987-September 2006 is the time frame of me being part of Osho Ashram, Pune. Till 1994 almost the years around, afterwards 6-9 months per year.
Worked in Mariam Kitchen, bookshop, Sannyas Initiation Academy, Main Gate guard, Hindi typist to Inner Circle, tour guide, Welcome Centre.
Thanks, Shantam for responding.
Glad you answered a direct question, and hope it will institute a new era in your blogging.
You say you remained “part” of the Pune Ashram until 2006. Fairly revealing, cos many of the things that were put in place by then you would have disapproved of. Was it your marriage and subsequent domicile in Germany/Swiss, or some final disagreement that led to you ‘leaving’?
An impressive CV, was there any special reason you did not fully take the robe and ‘live’ in Poona as many old ones did, or become a full commune worker?
“Hindu typist to the Inner Circle” seems a particularly evocative job description…
Maybe you should write for SN at some point of your full commune experience, 19 years as you claim is a fair chunk of time in anyone’s life.
Given this was the major part of your life in those days, it is still a surprise to me why you don’t live in Pune now and try and seek regime change there, as you clearly felt this was/is the heart of things, and is now subjugated to infidel rule in your eyes.
Work/worship in Pune 2 can be a interesting article as till now not many people have described the day-to-day activites around Osho.
I think it is a crime to simply wash out people’s interactions and the way of life around Osho.
Somehwhere there is a vicious attempt to turn moonlit starry night into a sunny day.
Osho like a sun in the sky and nobody else.
For such people, God is dead, Osho is the new God!
Satya Deva,
Such puerile reactions suggest I might generally be on the right lines
An article on Life in Pune 2, when Osho was alive 1987 to 1990, and how you experienced it, like your famous Visit to Sheela article, would be well worth a try.
Well, Satya Deva you’re again succumbing to machine like rationalisation’