Before he died Sam (Swami Prem Paritosh) asked a question which still requires comment, and which we were reminded of by the Osho mudras in the last string, which were also from the Dental room. Paritosh wrote:
“ Was nitrous oxide a quasi-Gurdjieffian device? Was Osho deliberately sabotaging any future public relations image of himself? Or, on the contrary, was he suggesting psychedelics could prove a valuable tool for large-scale awakening? Or was this aspect of his Leela a mixture of all of these?
One of the most striking features of the whole controversy is that we only know Osho took nitrous oxide because he publicised the fact himself. The first expose of Osho’s interest was by the disaffected disciple Hugh Milne in his book “Bhagwan: the God that Failed“. There Milne tells how he was invited to photograph one of Osho’s ‘dental sessions’ at the Ranch. Mystified he turned up to find Osho sitting in a dentist’s chair with two tubes, one of oxygen and one of nitrogen, inserted in his nose, and at the same time lecturing. (v. Milne, Bhagwan: the God that Failed, pp. 230-232). Claiming he was horrified he took his pics and fled from the trailer. In his book he makes out that this was some guilty secret he, Milne, had uncovered – brushing over the fact that the only reason he knew about it was because Osho had gone out of his way to tell him.
Apparently Milne’s photos were for use in a book Osho wanted to bring out, Notes of a Madman (published eventually in 1985). This consists exclusively of transcripts of a series of nitrous oxide sessions, and during the first of these Osho gives an unequivocal thumbs-up to psychedelic drugs: “Using chemistry I want to see if it is possible to see the heights seen by Buddha, Jesus, Lao Tzu… I think that it is.” (Notes of a Madman, page 5). Also he gives his account of why psychedelics are repressed: “Politicians [...] are so against drugs because people can come to know themselves, and when people come to know themselves politicians lose their power over them, and they love their power” (Ibid. p. 15). Had Notes of a Madman come out with the pictures of Osho with the tubes leaving and entering his nose it would have been one of the most deliberately shocking ‘spiritual’ books ever published.
Why was he doing this? Was it something– like Gurdjieff’s binge drinking, perhaps – designed to sabotage unconscious ‘worship’? A sort of counterpart to the Rolls Royces (if you could handle the Rollers you couldn’t take the drugs; if you were okay with the drugs you’d be floored by the sea of naff cars)? Surely there was an element of this in it…
Nitrous oxide sessions continued throughout his last years in Poona.(and possibly began in the last years of Poona one). Indeed if accounts are to be believed (there’s a back issue of Viha Connection giving a clutch of accounts from the dental team) in gargantuan quantities… though again these accounts have an unnerving quality of somehow having been okayed by Osho himself. Indeed, right at the end of his life, during one of the Zen lectures he went into a lengthy aside on the desirability of producing a more highly evolved psychedelic which he called “LSD Two”:
“I am against all prohibition. My own understanding is that if LSD can give some glimpse of samadhi, then all its bad after-effects should be removed, because it is a chemical and it is in our hands. Those bad after effects are the problem. They should be removed and an LSD number two should be made – clean, taken in complete awareness that it is going to give you only a glimpse… Rather than prohibiting the drugs, what is needed is to produce drugs which lead people to samadhi, which give an indication: if a chemical drug can be such a blessing, what will the real thing be? It is just a dewdrop in comparison with the real oceanic feeling, the oceanic ecstasy.” (v. The Language of Existence, pp. 27-33, Aug/Sept 1988.)
Put like this we have something where an interest in psychedelics, rightly nursed, is very different from ‘addiction.’ It is often very much missed in the classical accounts that underpinning Indian religion in general there is a far more positive attitude towards psychedelics than anything Western culture would lead us to expect. Not only towards ‘soma’, the legendary psychoactive drink to which so many hymns in the Vedas are dedicated, and not only in the Tantras, but even more strikingly in the person of one of the central figures of the Hindu pantheon… Shiva. The Puranas, the popular lives of the Indian gods, all stress Shiva’s partiality to hashish, and one of the central features of his worship remains ingestion of high doses of charas in the ritual chillum. Line Osho up in this context and things suddenly look very different. More especially since, of all the figures in world religion, it is Shiva arguably whom Osho most closely ressembles. The same fascination with meditation… same taste for solitude, for semi-outcaste status and for freezing cold… same orange-clad, delinquent followers. Same stress on the key role played by negation. Same rows with the missus…”
Sam
Part of the attraction of drink and drugs when we first get into that,
when we start developing the habits, is that it’s rebellious,
or was, against authority.
By giving permission and actively encouraging us,
he begins to break down all that.
It’s one of the things he does.
Gives permission to do that which has been forbidden.
I stopped boozing before I took sannyas, and years later, about 1990,
I’d started to go to a pub with friends locally, and I gave myself
permission to have a pint of lager every time I went in.
Three visits to that pub and it was over. I could not walk into a pub and consciously buy and down a pint.
I am not a teetotaller. I don’t drink or do drugs, but I am not identified with not drinking or doing drugs.
Your last paragraph applies to me too, Arps.
Yeah. Teetotallers are so boring.
Who knows what he was up to, seems like he didn’t care if people knew of his use of H2O? His apparent abandonment to the gas still jars in my little projected world of the ‘enlightened master’, but maybe that’s the point, blows the ‘perfect master’ image, just a man having a laugh and not even living up to expectations!
But giving permission to have relationships. Wear nice clothes. Eat properly, enjoy ourselves. Filthy jokes. The ‘fuck’ tape.
That was playing havoc with the prevailing notion of spirituality already, the enlightened master stereotype.
I don’t pretend any great knowledge of the subject. No doubt others here will correct if wrong. I never saw psychedelics in my small experience as “addictive”. I understand in certain traditions, like in ancient Greece, taking the potion was a once-in-a-lifetime initiation so seen as something to do with transitioning to maturity and living one’s life with vision.
The words in Paritosh’s text, “rightly nursed” seem crucial. I understand the best ayahuasca ceremonies etc. are fostered in that spirit, and also seen as a form of the sacred.
Parmartha, the link is with Shiva,not with Krishna….
Correct… got that one wrong!
I SOMETIMES FEEL SUCH A FEAR OF MISSING, AS IF I WERE IN A SCHOOL, AND IF I DIDN’T DO THE RIGHT THING I WOULD FLUNK OUT.
Yes, you ARE in a school. This is a school. We are learning to be ourselves here; we are trying the greatest adventure there is — of discovering oneself, of reaching to one’s own innermost core. It is a learning place, it is a school. But the whole point is, the whole teaching of THIS school is not to be worried about right and wrong, not to be worried about good and bad, not to be worried about morality and difference, not to be worried about lower and higher.
The whole point of this school is to become choiceless.
Now I will read the question again: ‘I sometimes feel such a fear of missing, as if I were in a school, and if I didn’t do the right thing I would flunk out.’ This is the right thing here: not to be worried about right and wrong. To accept oneself is the right thing here, to accept yourself, whatsoever you are, howsoever you are; to accept in totality and in deep humbleness that this is the way you are, that this is the way God intended you to be.
We are not trying to change you, we are not trying to improve you, we are not trying any ego-trip. We are simply trying to help you discover who you are. So the right thing here is not to be worried about right and wrong, not to be worried about this and that. We are not going to choose a character, a morality, a code of conduct. No, we are trying to find out who we are. Once you know who you are, no code of conduct is needed, no conceptions of right and wrong are needed. Once you know who you are, all that you do is right.
And, if you don’t know who you are, all that you do is wrong.
So, we are not worried about right and wrong.
Osho
Come Follow Me, Vol. 4
Chapter #10
Chapter title: I am the You You are Seeking
MOD: ARE THESE THE CORRECT BOOK DETAILS?
Arpana, is Ko Suan school still existing?
By copying and pasting the notes of Howard Law school, some guy in province created the impression he had joined the Howard. Anyway, one must appreciate the laborious effort and will to succeed.
In the above words of Osho one can feel how much proud master is feeling about His creation. This is the reason I always use capitals for Him.
Shantypants.
Jayesh will probably be dead within
the next twenty years, but you still
won’t be taking over from him.
The last time I went to the dentist, I remember, my hands were in a biksha
mudra! Anyone knows what that signifies?
Kavita …”The last time I went to the dentist, I remember, my hands were in a biksha mudra! Anyone knows what that signifies?”
Panic…you were probably not using the A-ssole mudra from the previous topic…was the middle index finger raised with the other fingers clasping the edge rest…?
Oh my gosh, Marty, thanx for shedding your light. Panic, that’s right, as every time I open my mouth in the dentist’s chair, my only fear is, hope my mouth doesn’t stay open forever!
Dear Arpana,
you are the quoting champion
and I want to pick up these two lines of the far echo of resonance in a buddhafield alive – that you choose for a Sunday morning of 2014 from a place wherever you are living and posting.
So I am wondering: who ARE you?
are you a priest ?
or someone who is just touched inside by uncomfortable feelings (similar to the disciple who had put out the question Osho responded to?
or do you want to inspire us (the caravanserai onlookers and contributors) with a far away “doesn’t matter”? or something else ?
or are we taken hostage by a Canadian/ English “intensive journal” experiment
whose founder was a Jungian therapist and departed long time ago to be on the logo of a writing school ?
Anyway
I picked up these two sentences because they give for me “good” shocks:
one is concerning responsibility versus irresponsibility
the other is about the danger of indulging fantasies about “infallibility”
the third I want to mention is shedding light on the question whether a buddhafield we visit as lovers of unlearning-learning
is alive or a dead one (living on memories and fantasies and interpretations of memories and fantasies)
“And, if you don’t know who you are, all that you do is wrong.
So, we are not worried about right and wrong”
I could not say that I am worried or want to find words to “right or wrong stuff”
but what I can share is that I felt so bad surfing as an onlooker the waves of yesterday and today
and ended up in the quote you chose – for a short break
like a dancer in the dark or
when I used to go for a swim in muddy waters and got too much in the mouth
having to clear out the throat for oxygen again
Sometimes, Arpana, I would love to be enlightened by you what brings you to choose a quote and when – and what for -
and this is a moment like this.
Madhu
You want me to explain myself to you? Is that correct?
——————————–
In fact, the mind which is always after explanations is an afraid mind. Because of great fear he wants everything to be explained. He cannot go into anything before it is explained to him. With explanation he
feels that now the territory is familiar, now he knows the geography, now he can move with the map and the guidebook and the timetable. He is never ready to move in an unknown territory, uncharted, without a map, without a guide. But life is like that. And no map is possible, because life goes on changing. Every moment it is now. There is nothing old under the sun, I say to you. Everything is new. It is a tremendous dynamism, an absolute movement. Only change is permanent, only change never changes — everything else goes on
changing.
Osho.
The Art of Dying
Chapter #8
Chapter title: A Child on the Seashore of Time
Madhu,
Do you disapprove of me using the Intensive Journal?
Most interesting article I’ve read on SN in some time, perhaps because it is a subject I am very familiar with. I am a veteran of the psychedelic scene, who today rarely uses drugs and drinks one glass of red wine per day for health reasons.
As I have said in previous posts, I have used nitrous oxide in the past and have often wondered why Osho was so fascinated by it. In my first gas sessions, back in the early seventies, I really enjoyed the short-lasting high. Over time I quickly realised that prolonged use produced migraine type headaches. Nitrous is not a dangerous drug psychologically. It is also not physically addictive. Ultimately it is somewhat predctable and a bit dumb.
Osho did not have much experience with LSD. As far as I know he only took it once. Hence his misconception that an LSD 2 should be created. LSD is still one of the most powerful psychedelics known to man. Having used it hundreds of times I am only too aware of the dangers of using it casually. I experienced many ‘bad trips’. I mean by that extremly terrifying visions, horrible paranoid feelings and shit your pants altered states. Those were some of my best trips. A good trip is like dying in a posiive way, meaning that you are able to let go totally. So-called bad trips are usually the result of various factors, including lack of preparation, wrong setting, inability to let go etc.
I could say much more on the subject but I will refrain and conclude that pure LSD 25 needs no substitute. It is already everything it could be and sooner or later it will beome the subject of much more research than it has alrady had.
When I first talked to Osho, back in March ’74, his first question was about what I had been doing with my life. I gave him the psychedelic lowdown. He seemed amused and commented, ‘Very good’. He went on to tell me that I had indeed been to the top of the holy mountain. The problem was that when the psychedelic wore off I was back in the foothills and if I wished to make the peaks my permanent abode I should meditate. I followed his advice and still do so today. Once in a while I trip the light fantastic but it has never been quite the same since our wee chat on the back porch.
It has taken me many years to feel comfortable in my skin. In my younger days I was a very otherworldy man. I see it that, as Osho says, psychedelics can give a glimpse of the beyond. It is good to have that under one’s belt. Nonetheless, life is enough as it is. We are in a human form to experience the world of limitation. One day we will all return to our formless nature. It will happen soon. No need to be in a rush to get there. Go out for a walk in the nature, enjoy your friends and family, the kids, the animals and the pure unadulterated complexity and beauty of this wonderful world we happen to inhabit. The beyond is just around the bend, waiting for your return. I know it and can assure you it is benign.
Thank you for your not-responding, Arpana,
and hiding again behind the screens of quoting
Madhu
You did want an explanation.
Thank you, Kavita – for appearing
the way you did
answer to your question of “meaning” (you asked for, did you?)
is from my side
hmmmmm – how delicious laughter and a smile is
tasting biksha….
Madhu
I enjoyed your post of today, Lokesh
(the long one)
I am not that experienced in the matter of the topic as you are
but I now kind of understand what you are talking about
and more so
I enjoyed the honesty and REAL-ness of your post
even in a virtual surrounding
thank you
(got a clear throat again meanwhile…)
Madhu
Cool, Madhu.
I also feel drugs are a bit of a dangerous field. However, I want to share one experience that left me wondering about things that come into our life might be necessary for us in some way that we do not know.
A year before coming to Pune first time, I went backpacking in Thailand, Australia, India. As it is not a custom in my country, I had not taken any other drugs but had smoked hash only a few times before. I had had kind of a crisis before I went for that trip (end of a relationship and studies I did not like). So, in Thailand I ended up eating magic mushrooms several times and got really incredible states, but also very bad ones. After that journey I never took anything stronger than wine. However, I read an article recently that, according to some medical study, they got very good results using magic mushrooms with people who have had traumatic experiences (like I had had then). So interesting point, that perhaps it could have helped me recover from my trauma then.
In a way, my conclusion with all kinds of “bad habits” is that some times they just might be trying to save you from something. That’s why even eating pizza can be healthier than some raw food diet. But, of course, compensation is never the real thing.
Practising meditation techniques, Osho’s or remembering etc. might work in the same way; they are preparing opening you for the real thing. People need different things in life, different times, but if we, as humans, are evolving to some higher states – or however you want to call it – needs and paths and bodies are many.
Fresch, do you think it true to say that the higher states already exist? After all, how can you wish to attain higher states if they have no existence? Therefore what has to evolve is not the higher states but our ability to access them.
So true, wasn’t the story of tea that he cut his eyelids to stay awake? Quite a metaphor in this context. I always thought it’s not about tea really.
Opening the eyes is so difficult that you might need some matchstick, if magic sticks are not available. And by and by you get better with it.
No, Arpana, I do not disapprove your using the “Intense Journal”,
I disapprove of your (sometimes!) avoiding showing up with your own responding to questions
we all – some more, some less – use what we could call “intense journal-speaking” here
and yet there is a difference in authenticity
What I googled about the workshops and history of “intense journalism”
so to say, to make a workshop business out of it
I didn’t like spontaneously
and that has been precisely IN my question to you personally
If you did
like you did now
respond with another question,
well – that’s the way to hide again
and why not?
I had beforehand relaxed and my ‘thank you’ to you was a way to say yes,
what is, is
There is no way to guarantee that a Sannyas News chat about any affairs
is not misused by stupid or even quite ugly crackpot minds
who never joined a sannyas trail or commune or whatsoever
with consequences quite uncomfortable for people like me
Bugging games or misuse of private data are not funny at all
and
as history has shown, the sannyas realm and history was (is?) not free of it
What I – indeed – would love is freedom and honest friendship amongst fellow travellers
This IS an issue for me
and I am learning to live with it
Madhu
I’ve been writing in the Intensive journal, my intensive journal
for about five years. Every day. So how am I being inauthentic?
I’m not touting for business for intensive journal workshops.
It’s purely personal. I’ve never attended a journal workshop.
(I started to write a journal every day in 1984).
I communicate here, in the moment, as well as I am able,
in any given moment.
Madhu, you say:
“There is no way to guarantee that a Sannyas News chat about any affairs
is not misused by stupid or even quite ugly crackpot minds
who never joined a sannyas trail or commune or whatsoever
with consequences quite uncomfortable for people like me
Bugging games or misuse of private data are not funny at all
and
as history has shown, the sannyas realm and history was (is?) not free of it.”
I suggest this is unrealistic, even rather paranoid nonsense, Madhu.
Look at it clearly: How could anyone here actually ‘persecute’ you by means of “bugging games or misuse of private data”?
And why would anyone be that bothered to hound you anyway?
Why not just relax and enjoy this very free space?
Be glad, satyadeva,
about some experience which obviously you never had to encounter
like private data phishing,
personal legal papers being stolen, as well as other very private things,
and having not had the experience to be stalked,
so
spare me of your presumptions and diagnostic trials referring to paranoia or “big ego” of “mine”
be just glad that you don’t know how that feels
people like to play these years and times
to an extent
that some of the old encounter groups
have been just an “intimate and safe place”
and as I knew the latter by experience
that will mean something –
Madhu
Madhu, in the context of Sannyas News, your apparent preoccupation with such concerns still sounds like paranoid nonsense to me.
It would be more understandable if at least one person had reported such a loss, or losses, or being “stalked” as directly due to participating at Sannyas News, but I’ve never heard this has happened here for as long as I’ve been coming, which is quite a while, at least 6 years, probably a lot more.
PS: I’ve no idea what you mean by your last paragraph (beginning “people like to play these years”), so perhaps you can clarify this?
I have just stumbled across this photo…which seems somehow relevant to this topic.
Nitrous?..who?..moi?
Hallo Sannyasins (Ex),
Will you please go out from your rooms and give message to young men and women standing in small groups near your railway station?
Please cheer them up by encouraging, “Osho, the media´s darling sex guru was also using the substance.”
Maybe you can give them the flare describing the experience.
Anyway, I have read a few articles during these months, which point out, ‘Hash in moderate proportion is much healthier for bodymind in comparison with Tobacco.’
Maybe it is the business interests of American farmers that such vital information is crushed by the army of brainwashed nations living on the alms of Anglo-Saxon influence.
“Hash in moderate proportion is much healthier for bodymind in comparison with Tobacco.”
Well, almost anything we can think of, taken in moderation, is much healthier than tobacco. So what?!
Personally, I wouldn’t necessarily trust anyone ‘attached’ to, ie somehow dependent on hash, alcohol or any other drug to provide any reliable mental, emotional or spiritual guidance or inspiration.
Absolutely, SD.
Love it, Arps
SD, there is a difference between addiction to say tobacco, and the use of psychedelics.
Psychedelics are not in and of themselves addictive. Witness the taking (after a 10 day fast) of drinking kykeon in ancient Greece. This was not something to be revisitd, more like a rite of passage to final maturity. There are echoes of this in many “mystery” traditions.
Yes, Parmartha, that’s why I said “necessarily”, “attached” and “dependent”.
But it seems some people can become addicted, or at least ‘attached’ to, somehow ‘dependent’ on psychedelics, eg both Lokesh and someone you and I both know (not Pari) had hundreds of acid trips several decades ago. Although Lokesh will confirm or deny whether in his experience I’m accurate on this ‘attachment’, of course.
Then there are others who were, to varying degrees, damaged by these substances (which is another matter).
But I hugely enjoyed Pari’s brilliant ‘Acid’ book, his adventures were the stuff of genuine research, carefully planned, so of course there are exceptions (hence the term “necessarily”).
So it would seem that something in some (or many?) people’s make-up, rather than something intrinsic in the substances themselves, can lead to overdoing psychedelics, ie to an ‘attachment’, or even a sort of ‘dependency’.
Like anything else that people get ‘attached’ to or ‘dependent’ upon, I suppose, especially those things that create excitement, ‘escape’, drama, adventure, that colour an otherwise apparently ‘colourless’ world. Including even intimations of psycho-spiritual truth….
I don’t consider any psychedelics physically “addictive”. Something like tobacco does seem to be physically addictive. Some say they got “addicted” to dope because it was always mixed with tobacco.
Of course, SD, there is the possibility of psychological addiction almost to anything!
Yes indeed, although heavy (or even more moderate) use of certain substances that might well not be physically addictive, including psychedelics, can have damaging effects on the brains and nervous systems of their users.
To me, it seems an area fraught with dangers, despite its obvious attractions. And on a purely personal level I’d simply be very wary of having a ‘bad trip’, which would probably bring it on anyway! The only two occasions I took acid it turned out to be very mild stuff, unfortunately nothing ‘cosmic’ or thankfully, ‘hellish.
The lady in the pic you provided, Mr P, is holding a pomegranate which is the original ‘apple’ of Eden, which signified ‘knowledge’ (they were not allowed to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge). All knowledge is just that. What has been seen cannot be unseen and those who have not eaten an apple have no knowledge of apples. Is there any value in apples? Probably not.
Drugs are just that. They are poisons and when ingested, all they offer is a nervous system under the influence of poisons. All mystical associations are happenstancial.
Those who are shocked by Osho’s behaviour just didn’t know Osho.
Funny, whenever the question of Osho and psychedelics comes up, the conventional political middle of sannyas, like Shantam, get angry and start accusing one of being an ex-sannyasin.
Paritosh, I can assure you, took a lot of time and care over what he wrote, and each sentence was to have its mark.
The Shantams and one suspects, the Aruns, don’t get it that Osho himself wanted to bring the use of nitrous oxide into the public domain, he wanted people to know. ( It was Sheela who blocked the publication of the nitrous dental room photos in “Notes of a Madman” because she claimed to want to protect Osho’s claim of having the status of a religious leader in the States).
Perhaps Osho intended to get rid of people who were and are too ready jump to judgements about those they see as (ex) sannyasins.
Shantam pontificating about ex-sannyasins is a bit like a five year-old declaring Einstein didn’t know anything about Maths.
I see Osho being very courageous insisting going public about nitrous issue, for a reason I do not understand yet. I also remember him saying something like, “I need to talk a lot of shit to get some truth in there also” (my shortcut interpretation).
That is exactly how I feel with normal teflon pan lying people too. I need to use clichés to tempt them and then maybe, just maybe, some little seed of truth can go along.
dear anand anubodh,
what a “spontaneous” graphic designed compilation you have been “stumbling” over…
you? who? thread?
Well
what to say, Satyadeva?
I am a woman smoking tobacco
and love a glass of red wine
sometimes
So anything I have to tell or can testify
on my being a target for crime,
crimes like stalking and being robbed, or being target for data phishings
would hardly find any flicker of compassion from you, is it?
or my testimony be seen as trustworthy?
What the Sannyas News concerns – I am simply realistic
I waited years to give it a try to connect
couldn’t take (by alone reading ) the verbal violence so often
And basically
I am living in a quite sane-disillusioned world about the safety and intimacy of IT virtual technology and IT surroundings as matter of facts well known meanwhile
So I dare to say to you
I am utterly sober
a way you might not like it though
also
I am not drunk by will-to-power and wanting to impose my will upon others by force
and that’s one special aspect of the drunkeness without all the smoking and drugs you find ‘cooking’ on any corner (some discreet doping may be on tour in these fan clubs) -
at least the corner where I am living everyday life
I felt and feel home with Osho’s sharing a vision
and leave it to us like in a wild garden what comes out of it
and I feel at home sometimes with the flavour of some of the fellow-travellers
when I have the chance to get more acquainted
So – Satyadeva – I do enjoy to write here – the time being
how you recommended it, did you ?
But we may not be in tune about standards of soberness versus intoxication
Madhu
PS:
The wish to impose my will on others by force is for my eyesight the most ugly drunkenness happening on a broad, broad scale
and sorry to say
“Sannyas News” is not free of it – how could it be? – so sometimes the flavour:
“in the world, but not of it”…remember?
Madhu, you too easily jump to conclusions. For example, when you connect my personal preference for being free of tobacco and, on the whole (but not as a rigid ‘rule’) of alcohol, with having “no flicker of compassion” for your past sufferings at the hands of a thief and online criminals, via what you assume – quite wrongly – to be my condemnation of all smokers and drinkers, even apparently mild indulgers such as yourself!
Can you see how you’ve just imagined this, on the flimsiest of evidence? Why, I wonder? That and your ongoing fear of online criminals striking at you again, via your participation here, which, as I said yesterday is more than somewhat irrational, over-anxious, especially given it’s never happened to anyone at SN (over what, a decade or more?) is puzzling. Is it through feeling particularly vulnerable, unsupported, lonely even, these days? If so, I’m on your side, don’t worry.
Also – perhaps for similar reasons? – it seems to me that you might be confusing what in Britain we call ‘standing one’s ground’ in an argument or discussion, ie maintaining one’s viewpoint (if honestly regarded as right, despite any opposition) with what you term ‘imposing one’s will on others by force’. There is an essential difference between that and throwing out gratuitous insults, although at times the two might overlap (as has occurred occasionally at SN).
If you’re in a generally highly sensitised condition then I can see how this sort of stuff could be upsetting. But if it appears, you do have a choice not to read it, of course.
And by the way, let’s acknowledge that Osho himself, ‘Love and Peace’ incarnate, wouldn’t condemn even physical violence under certain circumstances, eg telling his people to “put up a good fight” if threatened by violent opposition from outsiders in the area of the Poona ashram.
Teaching Schoolboys
from Sanai
“Be flexible teaching,
sometimes put dried fruit in the laps of those who seek,
or rub their heads. Encourage a second attempt always.
But if the disciple is bloody-minded, do not fear to show some iron…Say you will shut him up in the rat house, and that the biggest rat will make a meal of him!
These two faces of the teacher must stay in continuity – only that keeps those truly interested moving on the ‘Way.’ “
Aah, Parmartha…
with showing “some iron…” you will not be content, will you ?
black-humour flag (UK)
got the winds
how is your weather today?
Madhu
MOD: PARMARTHA DOESN’T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN HERE AND NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE HERE. PLEASE EXPLAIN!
Mod, I am not at all sure what Madhiu means here.
Madhu,
My idea with this Sanai text (Sanai was a Sufi Master) was to point out that a genuine master can have many faces, he does not show the same one to all disciples, and he does not show the same one at different “stages” of the disciple’s growth.
Osho showed many faces, and some got too comfortable with one, so he showed them another, especially with the Nitrous Oxide.
Yes, Parmartha
Thank you for a few more lines
And we don t need a mediator
Otherwise
it’s sometimes good to know a little bit more (like now) to get some lines in context
and I also find kind of home with last line of Bodhi Vartan’s contribution
but sure enough
I am easy to be shocked these days
(also without any readings of any posts – just by everyday “encounters” in so-called everyday life)
Sure enough also
it’s well known meanwhile that my capacity for humour has shrunken a lot
the last decade
Sorry about that
Madhu
When editor-in-chief jumps out from his mind that Shantam has become angry about Osho sniffing intoxication has hurt his religious feelings, it is far from truth.
I have written in my satire Sannyasins(ex), which means it includes both.
In my logic, anyone who goes to another master after initiation is an ex-sannyasin. I stay with this hypothesis.
So for clarity sake, Lokesh and Satya Deva on this forum can be bracketed into this sub-category. Though I have nothing against ex-sannyasins, neither I have the belief sannyasins are going to get flat in heaven at discount price.
Even if someone says Osho is far, far away from Enlightenment or he was enjoying blow job once in a while, doesn´t affect my gratitude for him.
Even if He is not free from the wheels of life and death won´t affect my gratitude.
For me it is enough, He was the one who dared to change the monopoly of religions and tried to create His own brand in the closed market.
Ramana Maharishi or Punja-ji on the other side were Hindus and all their Advaita was already an established concept. Surely half-boiled Christian eggs get attracted, thinking rest of the cooking will happen in sunny ´South India.
Shri Shantypants thinks Advaita is a concept, which illustrates perfectly how little he knows about it.
That’s the thing about people who are fast asleep: they dream they are awake and know what is going on, when in reality nothing could be further from the truth.
The Chuddie King displays his stupor in various ways. Take the following example: “So for clarity sake, Lokesh and Satya Deva on this forum can be bracketed into this sub-category.”
The only thing that is clear about this statement is the buffoon’s need to conveniently pigeonhole people who might disturb his sleep of ages. Not to mention his need to pass judgment as if he knows the truth…how could he when he is nothing, a shadow in a world of dreams, wherein he imagines himself to be the spiritual warrior maintaining Osho’s vision?
A joke unto himself no less…hard-boiled in his shell, from which there is no chance that any potential will ever hatch other than the full-blown windbag that he must have somehow been destined to become. Really quite tragic, but what else to do than treat it with ironic humour.
Shantam, I must say there is a slightly either laziness or arrogance or indulging in romantic dreams with you calling people who go to listen other teachers as sannyasins. I know OIF did sent some strange, threatening letters to therapists and other people who were seeing other teachers, but that is really old and rotten or mausoleum stuff, somehow even unreal…and you will definitely not get any reward for some artificial faithful act.
You are clearly not getting what you need at the moment and you seem not to like anything happening in sannyas scene (but only perhaps in viral world), and nothing seems to change in Osho world. So why not try out some other things in life, just to open up a bit? Meet people who meditate, take some new risks….
Fresch, let us face it factually, sannyas or neo sannyas has no existence anymore. Few news bundles in archives does not mean daily is still existing.
So there is no question of judging the personal longing of people. One thing I have observed quite often, when people infected by Osho go to other masters: they become even more shine less than before. Maybe it is a mystery, Osho mixing with others becomes deadly cocktail.
MOD: SHANTAM, WHAT DO YOU MEAN, ‘…they become even more shine less than before’?
There are only two people who have put such guilt on other people seeing any other teachers: Jayesh and Amrito. Two people who have a local meditation centre in an Indian city. And the reason is so clear.
Everybody else is exploring, even the therapists whom they attacked in public. I had the possibility to go for Papaji 20 years ago, my friends invited me. I did not have a need for it then, because so much was happening in sanyas. Now it’s not the case. And the focus should really be me. For you, you.
Not just reading a book or participating in some priest’s politics. And some of (the journey) it is about sharing with other people. You do not live in Delhi or Nepal, but you are in the middle of two cultures. There is a challenge in it.
Shantam Prem says:
“let us face it factually, sannyas or neo sannyas has no existence anymore.”
Somebody further up said that sometimes gurus pick up disciples at bus stops. That might have been so in the past but it is no longer. Osho is no longer for the people at the bus stop. Osho today is a master’s master and sannyas is available to anyone who wants it, hungers for it, cannot live without it.
Osho never minded his sannyasins going to other teachers, all he ever asked of them was to “sit at the front”.
Shanty pants.
I’ve had a great idea.
Why don’t you fuck off and
we’ll keep the two ex-sannyasins.
Is this what ‘high as a kite’ means? It’s that index mudra finger again…
https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1.0-9/734517_339149092906593_793242150_n.jpg
Altogether now….
” Yes..gosh, he does look like he’s part of Comic Consciousness… now that you mention it…..
What are you mumbling about, Martyn? Should I ask the doctor to check your prescription?
You flirting again with me, BV?
ps I only use holistic chemical-free stimulation when writing here
https://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/1897674_339393189548850_63496615560266402_n.jpg
Martyn, I cannot see it in my country, unfortunately. A good book of India today is (by the way) ‘The White Tiger’; it’s a story about a rickshaw driver getting rich. I could not put it down until I read the whole book.
Martyn, i mean I could not open the documentary.
Keep googling, Fresch, for a download or viewing site…it’s not on youtube unfortunately…try the title plus writing “RAR download”.
Osho had all the calibre to be one of the most respected, loved and richest saint of India, if he could curtain his rebellious spirit.
No, Man like Him is not born to follow the dead dictates of a traditional society.
Last day of His life is a testimony. In His own country, more than 95% people were “foreigners” to give Him a send-off.
Anybody can observe, Western mind is more flexible to accept rebellious souls and experimental nature.
With the same rebellious fire and unique solutions to life´s situations; Osho´s way of life was supposed to give energy and meaning to life of millions, if not billions.
His own management has let Him down so deeply, in life out of facebook, brand Osho is like three tubes of toothpaste in a multi-brand mall.
Jayesh´s version of Osho won´t affect anyone. What so ever is the continent, human beings by nature don´t like false versions and clever interpretations.
Whole nature lives on authenticity. Only man has the capacity for cleverness. Human lion won´t hesitate to eat grass and preach vegetarianism, if it is a demand from the society.
So whether Osho was getting thrilled by the Nitrous fits quite well with His approach to try the forbidden, the out of the way, and not to hide that fact from public shows his integrity.
God, please forgive me, if I say about my master, the effort to build American odyssey was the only grey area, where Osho allowed lies, denials, downright fake marriages and systematic manipulation of American constitution. Neither nature supported it nor human civilisation.
Sheela and Jayesh are the two wheels of this great crash and amazingly, both these people are surviving and flourishing wonderfully through their clean and legal enterprises!
Shantam Prem says:
“Osho had all the calibre to be one of the most respected, loved and richest saint of India, if he could “”curtain”" his rebellious spirit.”
You could have been one of the most respected, loved and richest saint of Sannyas News if you could curtail your use of meaningless metaphors.
Don’t be so harsh.
It’s a huge fillip for Osho to have the Shantypants approval of him.
You know, Shantam, I read “Das Capital” when I was 17 years old. Lenin did not believe in democracy, but the power of the proletariat, the lowest and most uneducated people. Why? Because they need leaders. And he was living in a feudalistic society, so “Good Dictator” is needed or the masses choose some idiot based on propaganda.
What is India, but a feudalistic country like Russia? So, I can understand Osho’s point in it not believing in spiritual revolution without some dictator, even if it was Jeyesh. And Lenin himself appointed Stalin already in 1905 and was very well aware of his doings.
Stalin regarded Lenin as a “God”, built a mausoleum etc. Rings a bell? But is it really outdated? Why I have the feeling you are actually the best supporter of that outdated way of dealing with spirituality?
P.S: What was Soma ? The pre-Vedic origins are discovered here by Michael Wood in the first of his documentary series on the Story of India…online view link here…
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/story-of-india/
“What was Soma?”
According to Michael Wood it was ephedrine, which goes to prove the set and setting are more important than the substance.
If so, then bang goes the ‘mystique’ surrounding all that ancient ‘cosmic ceremonial’ stuff.
Although I guess it’s possible that back then the mind was somehow ‘cleaner’, more ‘innocent’ than our neurotically overloaded one. and so even something as relatively mild as ephedrine might have produced effects powerful enough to ‘do the job’.
Soma- time…
and the livin’ is easy…
fish are jumpin’
and the frogs are nine feet tall…
I’m hallucinatin’…hush, little baby… …don’t you cryyyyy….
quick, flush the toiletttttt…it’s the police!
I recently had a visit from an old friend, a long time disciple of an enlightened man. He made some interesting and original comments about Osho. In relation to him and his sannyasins he said, “You have to understand that gurus sometimes pick people up at the bus stop. Not too fussy ones like Osho just work on what they pick up, regardless of what spiritual qualities a person may or may not have.”
In this context, Shri Shantypants is a person who is not particularly spiritual by nature, being more inclined to desiring change on the outside as opposed to working inside for development. His crusade for change in regime at the Resort being the prime example of his condition. It is an anomaly in the sannyasin world that someone like Shantam should somehow manage to maintain the illusion that Osho is his master because Osho’s whole effort was to get people away from changing externals. I’d go so far as to say that sannyas is for people who really wish to work and change themselves, and not for people who wish to change the world.
Even the Chudde King will have to admit that he is very identified with his ideas concerning Jayesh and co. To be identified with anything simply means that you are asleep, as is clearly the case with Chuddie Boy. Osho promoted non-identification yet Shantam lives in denial about this important point and continues his somnabulistic diatribes.
We can learn not only by observing ourselves but also by observing other’s actions. By observing Chuddie Laddie I see how stuck and foolish it is to be identified with changing unimportant small potatoes. Of course there are worthwhile causes, like relieving hunger, treating the underpriviledged medically etc., but campaigning for change in an Indian spritual resort as if one’s existence depended on it is pure folly. Why? Because if Shantypants changed himself he would see that there is no need for his interference and that the ideas he wishes to promote come from misguided notions.
I’m not saying that perhaps a change in Resort policies might not be for the good. I am saying that to replace them with a delusional figure like Shantam’s ideas would be a massive mistake, because he is fast asleep and most of the time does not have a clue what he is talking about yet maintains a pretence that he does.
“He is not particularly spiritual but I am.” Thus spoke a self-appointed spiritual seeker.
With this kind of statement one shows how much borrowed knowledge is implanted in the head.
Let me coin also one statement and I am sure some asshole can copy it and forward to his enlightened guru:
A real spiritual person has no idea till the end, whether he is really spiritual or it was part of make-believe world.
“A real spiritual person has no idea till the end, whether he is really spiritual or it was part of make-believe world.”
What end? Whose end?
At the end, the drop will disappear into the ocean and it will be too late for making judgements. When the drop disappears into the ocean is always the end…and making it happen “now” is the spiritual work.
Wow, Varti.
Didn’t realize you’d had such an experience.
When did that happen, then?
About twenty minutes ago. It’s gone again now.
Dear Shantypants, sorry to disturb your slumbers but I must point out to the readers that the following words are yours and not mine:
“He is not particularly spiritual, but I am.”
You conclude, “A real spiritual person has no idea till the end.”
How would you know that? You haven’t reached the end, whatever you imagine that to be. As for the ‘make believe’ part I am sure you are speaking from existential experience, because the make believe world is your address.
“A real spiritual person has no idea till the end.” What utter, unmitigated tripe! What ignorant, manipulative priest has put that in your head, Shantam? The one residing in your brain?
SD, surely you must realise that Chuddie Brain speaks in his sleep.
I just googled chuddie brain on google images and two pictures of Shanty pants came up.
rotflmao
And one of you (at least two of Osho and one of the Dalai Lama as well)!!
I didn’t notice that.
Even funnier.
Coincidentally…
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-26936031
coinci-dentally indeed!
Are there any drugs that Scottish people won’t do? (snigger)
Spiritual sleep has one nice component. The practitioners of such awakening see the sleepy people all around.
Provoke their idiotic thoughts and borrowed knowledge and you get slapped as sleepwalkers.
Just with little awareness one can see on this platform, who are such practitioners.
They have no ego but alter ego!
“The practitioners of such awakening see the sleepy people all around.”
Yes, that’s perfectly true, Shantam.
“Provoke their idiotic thoughts and borrowed knowledge…”
It must be most uncomfortable being thus provoked, Shantam. How do you manage to get through such a trauma with such idiotic thoughts and borrowed knowledge? Quite tricky, I guess?
“…and you get slapped as sleepwalkers.”
Now, take it easy, old boy, no physical violence here, please!
“Just with little awareness one can see on this platform, who are such practitioners.”
Thanks to your supreme clarity, Shantam, we sure as hell can!
Ah, isn’t the degree of self-awareness you demonstrate in these few lines – in the face of such severe handicaps as “idiotic thoughts” – SUCH a wonderful thing, a very “nice component” indeed?
You’re surely a major contender for the next DRASP!
Chuddie-ji, you really have the right name because all that comes out of you is chuddie matter. This one, “A real spiritual person has no idea till the end.” is really one of your greatest crappola creations. Not only does it sound ridiculous it is also completely untrue. Are you really so stupid that you actually believe such rubbish??
Sorry to disturb your aggressive chasing of Shantam to the corner as a gang and art/poetry/creative writing, but today I just had a natural laughing gas experience. I got a work project which involves hugging instructions worth far more than 5 years’ money I ever put into sannyas therapy.
Yes, it does work to offer clichés to the world for a high price, not with meditation or therapy, but other fields. Fun and creative projects and money is the best laughing gas ever.
MOD: FRESCH, WHAT DOES hugging instructions MEAN?
Mod, hugging instructions mean how to hug; not to be sleazy, dead fish, tap on shoulder or think about who you really would like to hug etc. and instead feeling inside. I use it for a company project. It’s ultimately for them to sell more their services, so what to do, but it will make people more happy (and make me money, so more happy too).
Well, if you think Shantam’s recent remarks aren’t worth ridiculing then you’ve an inadequate sense of humour along with an inadequate grasp of the point in question, Fresch.
Well, you seem to be no better than Shantam, having on and on the same arguments.
How ridiculous has been the remark, “there are no winners in this game”. It’s like tertris. Could there be at least some new line in the scripture of “Shantam the guru and his enemies” or “let’s kill Shantam together”?
MOD: WHAT IS tertris, FRESCH?
Mod, “Tetris” is an old computer game; my sister got really hooked on it.
It’s not a matter of ‘killing’ Shantam, Fresch, it’s about expressing truth rather than half-baked, ignorant – and therefore intrinsically offensive – bullshine.
PS: Please address your remarks re “no winners in this game” to whoever’s responsible, rather than to me.
Same, same old same.. And with the gang
Fresch, in Shantam’s plans for the future resort you would not be allowed in if you are a dirty white-skin.
And btw, Lokesh, I did suggest him Spike Lee’s movie about black, brown and yellow racism – to make his own Indian version, a long time ago. To turn it around. Because I know Indian racism even if they hide it in sannyas circles…
But we all have some mindfucks, don’t we?
Ok, Fresch, to get away from mutual name-calling, please tell me then, whether you agree or disagree with the latest views expressed by Shantam.
(Unless that’s too difficult, seeing how you apparently find it rather hard to keep to the actual subjects under discussion – when it suits you).
This was easy. Like I wrote before, “he is over romantic spiritually”, but also arrogant, thinking his spirituality is “the right spirituality”. The sad thing is, if he does not move to Delhi or to Nepal he will not get any reward or support for his caste spirituality context.
Yes, Lokesh, I know and I am aware “dirty white skin” would not have a part in Shantam’s post office, but perhaps in his dream harem. On the other hand, he has been living western lifestyle with western woman and half- western children, so I suspect he might not have any turning back to live full-time in India. That was the reason I also suggested him to go over some of his personal borders and try something new instead – with any new people who meditate.
But because he is so right and full of religious guilt of doing anything against Osho (now I mean “Osho” in his dreams/projections) and hoping for reward for his loyalty, about which nobody in this world gives a shit. So, it’s all about his guilt trying o be a good boy. Still, I would not gang-attack him.
“This was easy” – because it didn’t involve actually answering the question?!
“I would not gang-attack him” – confidently and righteously declared – having just taken the trouble to write a couple of paragraphs denigrating the ‘poor chap’!
Another priceless slice of hypocrisy – or perhaps you have a rather ‘convenient’ memory problem, Fresch?!
Lokesh says:
9 April, 2014 at 3:54 pm
“Fresch, in Shantam’s plans for the future resort you would not be allowed in if you are a dirty white-skin.”
This attempt of character assassination needs to be answered.
Here is one of my posts on facebook, published about a week ago:
Dyan Viral,
During Osho´s lifetime, more than 95% disciples were from foreign countries, mostly Europe. If parasites are eating the main seat, onus to protest and protect also lies with these people. Sometimes it makes me wonder, how Europeans could ever bear an autocrat. It is simply against the very tenants of age of Enlightenment which started with French Revolution.
Maybe it is because of wearing Indian names.
Still, as matter of propriety, domestic and international ratio in the neo Inner Circle will remain the same as during Osho´s times.
4 April at 19:57
So, in a way, not just on management level, I heartily wish that Pune remains full with western seekers, almost in the same ratio as it was. Only hitch is it is not possible if Indian disciples with passion for Osho are not taken into consideration by the chieftains.
Shantam, that is only a retarded victim role…to shoot back later with arrogance. Drop it.
Hello, friends,
Too much gas on the pipeline
and some of the pipelines are leaking
Just too much!
Madhu
Madhu, just checking – have you read my response to you (this thread, Tuesday, 4.44pm)?
So true, Madhu. Biogas is produced by the breakdown of organic matter in the absence of oxygen.
That means in humans; shit without breathing or sitting on your shit.
However, if you can use it right, biogas can be used as a fuel or in a gas engine to convert the energy in the gas into electricity and heat.
So, for communication between humans, shit can always turn to energy and light.
So very true, Fresch.
However, one of the main catalysts for such ‘organic transformation’ of human communication is to deal with issues as they arise, rather than making a habit of dodging questions, either by ignoring them or by choosing to invent and answer others that one finds less ‘threatening’, more ‘comfortable’.
That’s a habit you tend to share with Shantam, btw.
I suggest that’s why much ‘biogas’ has drifted your (and Shantam’s) way until it seems to almost define your very conditions of existence here at SN….
BELOVED MASTER,
ARE YOU AGAINST GARLIC? I HAVE BEEN EATING IT SINCE MY CHILDHOOD AND I DON’T THINK THAT IT STINKS.
Virago, meditate over this story….
Forster sat in the posh offices of Park Avenue’s most famous physician.
“I’ve got this terrible problem,” he explained. “Everything I eat turns to gas. I just had steak and potatoes and it turned to gas.”
“That could be serious,” countered the doctor.
“But fortunately,” said Forster, “my gas is noiseless and odorless. Can you cure it?”
“I’m sure that I’ll be able to help, but first I’m going to fit you with a hearing aid and then I’m going to fix your nose.”
Osho
The Dhammapada: The Way of the Buddha, Vol 11
Chapter #10
Chapter title: Laugh your way to God
Really SD? On what grounds?
I do not like gang attacks. Also, I do agree with some of Shantam’s points like I can relate with other people’s writings here too. Black and white movies are history, however nostalgic that could be.
Perhaps you do not read my posts or maybe you do not understand them…just let me know what you do not understand.
It seems just futile to address you on this single issue, Fresch, as every time you, in effect, deny all knowledge (ie not even responsibility) of what I’m talking about! As you are doing in this latest protestation of ‘injured innocence’.
Don’t worry, I understand what you’re saying.
But your responses to me are largely just a smokescreen to divert attention from the simple fact that YOU AVOID ANSWERING (what to you are apparently) ‘DIFFICULT’ QUESTIONS!
Move on.
You know, sweep it all under the carpet, pretend no one’s said anything, just carry on wilfully oblivious to questions you perceive as ‘difficult’.
I’m afraid I really wouldn’t have expected any other response from you, Fresch.
And why label separate people’s independent views as “gang attacks”, just because they happen to be critical?
Should I or Lokesh, for example, not post anything critical of Shantam, just because the other posted his comment first?
If praise from more than one source is ok, then why not criticism from multiple sources?
Use some common sense, Fresch, (ffs).
Posing as some sort of ‘defender of human rights’ on a discussion forum sits uneasily with your habit of wilfully choosing to avoid discussing issues, which itself is like sticking two fingers up at your interlocutors.
And SD, it was Lokesh’s propaganda against me to write that I did not mean it when writing you are – sometimes – sweet. I mean it. Sometimes you are.
Dear Shantypants, a while back you were rattling on about dirty white skins. It was pure racism and somewhere inside you know it. Being a racist ties in perfectly with all the other idiotic roles you’ve cast yourself in.
Going by your comments I can only conclude that you are stupid and confused. Good for the occasional laugh and that is about it.
I might add that you do have a great imagination because it needs that to continue your fantasy about preserving Osho’s legacy. Bit of a tragic joke if you ask me. Boo hoo, where’s my hanky?
Yes, Satyadeva,
I did read the post you mentioned, all of it – not only the lines I copied again below:
“…If you’re in a generally highly sensitised condition then I can see how this sort of stuff could be upsetting. But if it appears, you do have a choice not to read it, of course….”
You got it wrong to presume that I put it all on Sannyas News affairs when I wrote about IT hacking, IT bugging games and after-effects like stalking -
it’s as I said it – to be as aware and realistic about the virtual realms of IT as possible and about the light and also the shady sights of users as well
and we sannyasins or other visitors (unknowable) are as ordinary as others
What I tried to make you acquainted with is (friendly said) some of the very uncomfortable stuff I had and have to encounter (to face) the last two decades in everyday life
Rarely here anyone shares about his or her “everyday life” – which for sure – is much more than writing in Sannyas News chats
Though sometimes the fights may be caused by particular difficulties individuals have adjusting to ongoing problems in coping with the so-called world we are all living in
and some of these fights may be rooted in old habits
a newcomer in a virtual caravanserai like me may be experiencing more painfully than those who are habituated to it
That’s a chance too – not only a nuisance, isn’t it ?
One of the prejudices sannyasins (me also) had and have to encounter is
that Osho neo sannyas has been and is a “psycho sect or cult”
Well – it’s worth looking inside too see if there is some truth in it
The way here psycho diagnoses are thrown on the caravanserai paths (and on contributors) like stigma, rotten banana pieces, without trying to look behind some curtains
or shadings of what really has been triggered in the audience is nourishing any prejudice of this kind.
There sometimes is a gap in all of this I’ve mentioned
And these gaps I thoroughly enjoy.
Have a good day, Satyadeva
and I hope your request is responded to.
Madhu
Madhu, you say, “The way here psycho diagnoses are thrown on the caravanserai paths (and on contributors) like stigma, rotten banana pieces, without trying to look behind some curtains
or shadings of what really has been triggered in the audience is nourishing any prejudice of this kind.”
A massive contradiction lurks behind this statement and if you don’t see it please don’t ask me to explain it to you.
Madhu: “The way here psycho diagnoses are thrown on the caravanserai paths (and on contributors) like stigma, rotten..”
True, I was actually doing it for Shantam, which is not good. I did it not for him really, but for the rest of the gang attackers to get some perspective.
Imagine Lokesh writing in some Indian Advaita or other Indian related meditation site as an only westerner. Would be interesting to hear about that.
Lokesh represents typical sanyas street-smart opinions – often very much to the point, personal experience and full of feeling, but that is “one side of the story”.
Ideas get doomed and boomed too. Not just ships and planes, religious concepts too meet their accidents because of human negligence or unforeseen circumstances.
Osho´s product Neo Sannyas is one such Titanic!
Surely there is a big scope to create a story line of meditation and passion around the sinking ship.
Things which cannot be seen also sink, if we stay around with the metaphor, world around us is a big Ocean!
In any case, no one doubts the marvellous creation of inner engineering and top of the class design.
Mahachuddie, could you please explain where your racist programme fits in with meditation and passion on your metaphorical Titanic, which may well be sinking because it has been holed by your head full of rocks?
Dear Satyadeva –
I need to stand by the side near Fresch when she talked about some kind of gang mechanism -
In the beginning of my start-up, so to say, in this caravanserai, felt that very often the case and by that mean there were a few guys cheering up one each other by giving aggressive posts and also referring that so and so also says that…
and also the contributions of this kind were mostly hang in an area under ANY belt…
Then and there I felt like in a kind of kindergarten for “grown-ups”
to run after in groups and very often also (for me) in a way like rioting.
When that did hit me personally I took a breathing session here at my place and tried
sometimes better, sometimes I failed – NOT to RE-act but to wait for words to come, or not.
I felt the last weeks that that kind of stuff slowly is on its way out, maybe?
There is no guarantee ever about ANYTHING…
And I stand by your side, Satyadeva, when you included the “praise” also in this.
Then I feel home in a sannyas caravanserai.
It is seductive – seemingly sweet – to get some praise, Fresch, but some praise can be as poisonous as an insult
sometimes -
So the sentence:
“If praise from more than one source is ok, then why not criticism from multiple sources?”
is for me too very valuable
When I read posts I read them all
if I get hooked I try to respond
and then wait
But what I am always doing right from the beginning
is SENSE how the whole wave, so to say, is taking its course
and then and there I have often been
just sorry – I am sorry to say that
sometimes just such a beautiful beginning in posts that really are confined to the issue and matter, and the insights or experiences of individuals
and then quite often
stuck-ness in apparently old patterns of relating
some may be years old.
It’s like in everyday life, isn’t it?
so nothing to criticise
but to get aware of
like water working on stones
free quote of a Laotse…and his wisdom.
And Fresch,
what I sometimes just felt in earlier times is (projection of mine?)
that you, Fresch, may have some lust in being in midst of some guys beating another up with quite strong male (sex) power
(because of the verbal vocabulary)
and sometimes I felt you gave fuel to that too -
is that so ?
It’s difficult – has ever been – (yet) for me to get more close in my heart to Shantam’s contributions
BUT
in me – when reading him – is resonating a pain about something apparently lost
in sannyas life – and what that meets in me
is just pain and when that is strong I try
TO GIVE IN
FEEL IT
and I am grateful also for meeting my pain again in another way as before by joining this unknown group of fellow-travellers
Makes me richer, not poorer
So, thank you all
And have a good evening
Madhu
Madhu, “may have some lust in being in midst of some guys beating another up with quite strong male (sex) power (because of the verbal vocabulary) and sometimes I felt you gave fuel to that too - is that so?“.
Sannyasins often interpret all energy as sexual, but as I remember, “energy is energy”. I like participating in discussions. It’s a bit difficult to be sexual in SN, I need physical contact for that.
But, I really like it that you write here.
Why to discuss with people who have already their opinions?
One should have the eyes to see, the person who is asking the way to railway station has navigation box in his chest pocket.
Best is to walk like a mouse or an elephant without looking here and there. This is Vipassana!
Mice – as well as elephants, Shantam Prem – are very intelligent living creatures
They do not only look “here and there”, they have a lot of other sensitive skills.
Human beings, imagining to be “master of planetary universe”, have other skills – too many not for the good, as we all come to know.
Walking vipassana is not something to be especially proud of and boasting
it is just something to do
and be silent about it
so have a good walk
Madhu
That’s true, Lokesh,
and only partly owing to the fact that sometimes I don’t reread again before posting and also check if what I “think” in mother tongue has been best converted.
I am a quick and spontaneous “writer” most of the time
But that’s only part of it
The other part I take as a reminder and thank you for that
Madhu
Shantypants is, like the mass of humanity, choosing to stay asleep to the mass of contradictions that pepper his existence. In this case the denial of his proclivity towards racism and then posting some bunk that leaves him backpeddling.
He says, “Why to discuss with people who have already their opinions?”
Why indeed?
A few comments up he comes away with the following: “Lokesh and Satya Deva on this forum can be bracketed into this sub-category etc.”
This is, of course, someone talking from a very opinionated and limited perspective.
I reckon that Gurdjieff was right on the money when he taught that we are not one but many inside. It is an important point and we can perhaps be thankful to the Chuddie King for unwittingly giving such a perfect example of this condition that we all live with, for how else can it be that someone says something one day and then totally contradicts himself on another?
Yes, life is contradictory by nature but we would all do well to acknowledge the fact that we need not live in a contradictory inner world. We have the right to not be negative and call a spade a spade, whatever colour it is.
So in response to Shantam’s question: Why to discuss with people who have already their opinions? I will say, why not?
Shantam, Why no reply? On anything.
Ever heard of karma, Fresch?!!!
You and Shantam are made for each other, you’ll never answer each other’s ‘tricky’ points – a perfect fit indeed!
Shantam does not reply. He is conducting a one-subject monologue.
I would say they are both in monologue, Shantam AND Lokesh. If we talk about Shantam’s so-called racism, Lokesh seems to be mirroring in Shantam all his envy for Indian natural spirituality.
Varti, even I did write that you seem to be sleepwalking, I must admit your posts often bring air and new approach here. You do not seem to have any of this shit against anybody. You are the one who will not get the heart attack or cancer from bad energy.
Indian natural spirituality might once have existed but today I sincerely doubt it and therefore there is no possibilty to envy it.
45 years ago, when I first arrived in India, I was, like many western travellers of the time, enamoured by India’s apparent spirituality. After living in the subcontinent for a decade I’d come to realise that what I first perceived as spiritual was actually a culture that had adopted a spiritual behaviour pattern to cover up a psychology that was totally lacking in anything remotely spiritual.
Of course, as Osho so rightly said, if you have a sense for it you can still find Buddha’s footsteps. Alas, those footsteps are almost extinct now, destroyed by a socety who, like the rest of the world, has adopted a love of all things material. Today, I am more in love with the idea of India, for in reality it is a very dirty and overcrowded place.
Fresch, at this juncture I have to express my opinion that, going by your comments here on SN, you come across as a lightweigt who believes herself to be in a heavyweight competition. You are also misinformed. Generally speaking, people do not get cancer or heart attacks from ‘bad energy’. One of my closest Spanish friends is an internatioally recognised cancer researcher. I once asked him what he believed was causing the spread of cancer throughout the world’s population. He replied, ‘It is something in the food chain’.
People who have a positive outlook on life are just as prone to heart attacks as people who are negative. Your new-age philosophy is not cutting the mustard, Fresch.
A heart attack is when your heart attacks you for mistreating it. I am not saying this lightly or in a New Age fashion.
Cancers are more complex, but a joyful attitude always helps the biology.
I have met a number of “jolly”, rounded people in my life who died seemingly in some great pain of heart attacks. They certainly seemed really happy (at least to the normal eyes of a fellow human being) in their daily life.
I know that ‘beat poet’ that Osho seemed to like (Roger McGough) said he did not want to die a “comfortable” death. But as far as I can see, unless one wishes to sacrifice one’s life to advance the work of God – then a comfortable death seems very desirable. Thank the Lord for morphine is what I say!
Yes, Lokesh, I am definitely light; actually, I must have air in my head.
An anecdote that happened just 5 minutes ago:
I had tried to look for a course or training related to my work In London. So, I emailed to one of the best companies in the world in that field based in London. However, they do not have exactly what I am looking for and I asked if they could tell what other companies or universities have. I got a very friendly feedback yesterday. Also, he gave me a contact of some really successful person for help (I did not understand it then).
Well, because I must be a female Forrest Gump, I did write to that person and also answered back that I might do both his course and go for this other thing too (I thought I was talking to some sales person). Well, then I got another, even more friendly answer and it got me curious to check out who was this friendly person.
Auts. It was the founder and CEO of the most creative worldwide company in my field. And I am talking, one of the major players in Europe. I have not been able to stop laughing. I am getting a heart attack just now.
Had a penguin session, Arpana
That was needed
and makes my “today’s” laughter
and that was needed too
Grateful, Madhu
Shantam and Fresch are made for each other; the way Lokesh and Satyadeva are made for each other!
In heaven, too, I think there are different suburbs. To bring Jains into meat eaters’ locality, howsoever Dubai- like it may be, is almost like hell!
It is always beautiful to discuss. It is even more lively to discuss with people with different set of values.
Same thing becomes torture when set of values are as rigid as stones on the mountains. Such people cannot be hammered by their peers but only through some master. Most probably the greed of spiritual toffies can make them a bit flexible.
All the attention has obviously been too much for the Chuddie King and he has once more returned to the glue pot.
Why people go to Gurus?
Simple
Why they go to doctors or lawyers?
Only benefit in the guru business is, chronic patients and clients have the liberty to think, “Sir, can still hold the pulse and read the brief.”
Lokesh, dear, you don´t need to give attention to me, create dialogue with equally interested people.
People with few coins and few crumbled notes can also have a wish to create a bank.
Why not?
Five people sitting on a table in an old people´s home can also have this ‘feel good’ energy: “Without us, home will look very empty.”
Shantypants, I give you atention because you exemplify so well a lot of what is wrong with people’s ideas concerning what it means to be ‘spiritual’.
In a nutshell, a spiritual person is to me someone who is focused on the inner, knowing full well that the world is just a magic show composed of smoke and mirrors. Yet you pose as a spiritual warrior preserving Osho’s legacy, while maintaining a superfluous concern for changes on the outside.
As if to say when the Resort is handed over to buffoons like you to run, enlightenment will happen as a consequence, when nothing could be futher from the truth.
Arpana, if you do your pornographic and racist’s remarks on me (like in, just help your God you with it).
MOD: FRESCH, PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN HERE, PARTICULARLY THE LAST BIT IN BRACKETS.
Lokesh, let me say it clearly, I care not what you think and also about your Stolen, borrowed and not returned definitions of spirituality.
Be sure, I won´t book a room in the heavenly resort you will check in.
Spirituality is this, this, this and this.
Non-spiritual persons are like so, so and so.
With this kind of mindset many people have lived their life and have the feeling, they have the pre-booking in godly Resorts.
I am already preparing myself to sleep on footpath in front of God´s secured Villa!
Shantam Maharaji, you rarely say anything clearly and the above comment is no exception.
You say, “Spirituality is this, this, this and this.
Non-spiritual persons are like so, so and so.”
That isn’t clear. It is vague and displays a complete unwillingness on your part to bother in the slightest to communicate what you actually mean. This is perhaps because what you actully mean is ill defined and incoherent even to yourself.
You declare, “I am already preparing myself to sleep on footpath in front of God´s secured Villa!”
This makes me think about something I heard recently about lying. One of the most destructive activities one can participate in is lying to oneself, in this case keeping up a pretence. To lie to oneself is quite the opposite direction from the truth. Most people lie to themselves constantly. The main reason being that they are not aquainted with the truth and therefore do not realise what they are doing.
There are people in the world who will get the essence of satire only if headlines says, ‘It is a Satire’.
I request to God, before you send next great Indian master for the westerners, please send that master for a crash course in England or America.
It will definitely improve the quality of communication and also good for the continuation of the legacy.
It is really a research to be on this platform. Those who cannot follow the simple intention of a simple writer claim to follow the mystical treatises.
End result is clear, there are gentlemen scratching their ears with tampons!
Fair enough, Shantypants. One has to recognise a social exchange that is completely stuck.
You obviously are quite content to remain with your commitment to stick to your rusty guns, avoid direct questions addressed to you and in general write in flowery metaphors that often contain innuendos that women might find offensive, and generally write in an oblique style that if one can be bothered to decipher communicates nothing much of interest and delivers the impression that you are a fool hiding behind a smokescreen composed of unrefined bullshit.
I give up and will ignore your comments for some time. Unlike yourself I am quite capable of keeping to my word on such matters even though I have no need of going on a sabbatical to do so. Ring a bell?