Shantam Prem takes Initiative
The brain storming here at sannyasnews.com gave me the thought yesterday, to simply phone Jayesh and Neelam to broach a one to one meeting. They owe it to the memory of the Master and also they had such a warm working relationship for more than fifteen years. I also know how a few womenfolk in the ashram put out all their jealousy towards Neelam and lodged it into Jayesh’s ears.
Before He died, the way of these women and their manner of palace politics was to get the attention of Osho, after Him it was of course Jayesh. The same kind of palace backbiting one reads about in the history books. And I am sure both of these old souls will agree with this.
I know, it is very difficult to get the email or phone of Jayesh, i understand somehow he is a private person by nature who likes to operate behind the scene. However through the website of Osho Nisarga, I could get the mobile of Neelam. I have mentioned to her in my ensuing phone call that she must gather her heart together and ring Jayesh directly, at least for the sake of the old days. In existence, nothing lasts for ever. If friends turn enemy, enemy can turn to friend also.
After I had placed this phone call I realised how time passes. Last time I had spoken with Neelam on the phone, was in 1993, when I used to work with her. When i said,” Neelam Ma, i am Shantam speaking. – Within a second she replied,” Oh Iqbal(my legal and first sannyas name), after such a long time!.”
This is an Open appeal to Jayesh at the same time.
Please, show the humility. you can create a better history by saying Hi to Neelam and making the way for a summit meeting. Let right hand joins the left, for the NAMASTE
My God, millions of eyes have seen you people in the very first row sitting before Osho…… Come on beloveds, recall those golden moments..break the ice, you have this tremendous trust from Osho as front row disciples. I love you and apologise for my hard words – it happens too when there is love…. Love is not just kiss kiss!!
With passion for Him
Shantam Prem
PS- As Yogendra, younger brother of Jayesh is on my facebook friends list, i will send this letter to him also.
Beautiful Shantam … it would be nice to see a letter from Jayesh about what he feels … for the first time … and this too would be a Welcome change … For the Sanyas/Osho world !
What did neelam say?
this is just rubbish. Actually it is not about neelam or jayesh or the left and right hand rubbish, it is all about Shantam prem. and hisworthless ego.
Just shut up Swami!
no I won’t. I am sick of such rubbish.
this sis beginning to look like a Fellini movie or SNL satitre of the sannyas world. I am just sitting back and starting to really enjoy this show.
come on guys …continue!
I am just so sorry frank is not here any more … he would really love this!
Frank, likes to cause his disruption under multiple usernames. So he could be hiding somewhere…..
Well Swami, havn’t Neelam and Jayesh got egos too? And your good self?
It is a strange thing unless you were closely around Osho when he was alive, a lucky break I always acknowledge…, … But all that front row stuff was meaningless.
Being physically close to Osho or longevity of service is absolutely no guarantor of anything, and that truth one almost needed to own before any real dsicipleship of Osho – or in fact for anyone else worthy of the name of Master.
Maybe that is where Shantam’s “devotional” tilt needs to be given a shaking. He speaks as though these front guy fellows were a special breed. No mate, only the shit gets to the top of any organisation, including Osho’s.
And what further proof of the pudding of that statement that what now goes on from both sides in the name of Osho!!!
ah, biggus..Have you ever been an Osho lover? I won’t waste my time asking you if your a sannyasin.
the candle has to burn form both sides …’ He ‘ always said
Jayesh, Neelam can bring you to your true nature. Please bow down to her, and surrender into the moment that is you. All else will follow.
what? the last post sounds like a line from ” the lords of the rings”
what century are we in?
Anthony you must have a few buttons missing on your remote control tee hee.
Even in the most wonderful lives, usually a burden is being carried. This burden tends to be born out of identification with personal accumulations. This life burden is everyones story.
I love a good story. To me the posts on Sannyasnews are stories. Everyones story has to be magnetised by a point of view. There is nothing wrong with the stories unfolding here right now. The story can be profound or beautiful or entertaining. Both in its subtlety and its horror. The story ends whichever way you want it to.
Most people will generate some controversial story. It gets the juices flowing. It is something to do for the person posting and I love reading peoples posts whatever their story is about.
The real challenge is to be peaceful, to be who you are, too honor what has somehow been given you in this lifetime. To honor this is to share it.
Then your lifetime becomes peace recognizing peace everywhere.
Regardless of the circumstances.
Love
Kartar
OSHO is a PERFECT MASTER …. !!!!!!!
And WE ALl are PERFECT DISCIPLES
ALL
GRATITUDE TO ALL … !
Sorry Swami .. l didnt mean to hurt you …
Gratitude For ALL !!!!!
Dear ones, all this is for administrative purpose for a smooth run of a, one of its kind organisation. This organisation needs to flourish as per the wishes of its founder.
Please, try to distinguish what is spiritual, what is religious and what is- administrative/judiciary/legislative.
When ever there are more than one person in a room, a spoken or non spoken “system” comes into force, and this system needs continuous upgrading. The founder of OSHO!! know this and also of IKEA!!
Is it not so?
Dr. Amrito … would like to correct me for saying ” said ” and l will happily say ” HE always says ” !
I think Kavita, Dr, Amrito, most probably will modify ” He always says” too
” I have heard Him saying”…..emphasis is on my limited understanding not a claim What He says.
Shantam
I have not seen this thread by the time we spoke..
This is a wonderful ‘ RESPONSE ‘ from you …what the situation required.
Dear All
If someone keeps posting opinions and does nothing further then what you guys speak is relevant.. Shantam has taken so much pain to take Efforts.. he has the heart and courage to send the link of this posts to Amrito and now make attempts to call Jayesh & Neelam..
Let us NOT down play what He is trying to do.. Let us support him in whatever way we can..
Tomorrow when we all meet in Buddha Grove we should be able to dance out of gratitude for each other..
Swami.. Keep your opinions and all time blaming for some other forum.. Dont discourage people by categorizing everything as ‘ rubbish ‘.. Please…
As i said running a Meditation center and Publishing work of great but controversial master like Osho is not easy.. People like Jayesh , Amrito , Keerthi and Neelam have had remarkable journey of life with osho and now they are putting their heart and soul in running these centers..
Yes.. they have their differences of opinion on Osho ‘s vision has to unfiold.. But that doesnt mean we can just throw all rubbish on them ..
let us ask ourselves one question.. If we are given the opportunity to run Pune Resort or Oshoworld will we have the meditativeness and courage and composure required to manage the affairs ?
Let us share positively and see what else we can do.. may be we all can send a combined request to Pune and Keerthi and Neelam to support Shantam’s efforts
Swami Keerthi.. Please Please help us to take the lead.. Help us to move forward instead of posting few messages in forum and sitting HELPLESSLY watching what can happen.. It is too painful for us….
l Agree with U Kranti … and respect whatever will Happen …
…. Sammasati …..
Looks like Silence after the storm ….
Before or After you never know..But let us be Silent..Let our Silence communicate to Evreyone what we coulnt communicate with words..for so long..
May be silence is the right language for those 4 people who lived with a Buddha..
………………… !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Beloved Kranti
You said: Swami Keerthi.. Please Please help us to take the lead.. Help us to move forward instead of posting few messages in forum and sitting HELPLESSLY watching what can happen.. It is too painful for us….
There’s no need to watch Helplessly. Watch as a sannyasin–as a witness…which means no helplessness…just passive alertness.
Do not expect anything from this discussion group…where you have so many people to discourage you.
Whatever you wish to do, do it directly and there’s no need to involve these people who are merely interested in discussing. You may fail or you may succeed which won’t matter much…all that matters is that you did what your heart wanted you to do.
Let there be your own clarity and let it emerge out of your own meditation.
Same is being said to Shantam Prem also.
Do not discuss on this Forum..do what you feel like doing, but it should be spontaneous out of your meditation, and not mere mentation.
Cheers
Swami Chaitanya Keerti
Kirti Swami ….. l heard Osho say ”you cannot do meditation you can only be in meditation .It is not a question of doing something ” this part of meditation and jus like you shared Neelam maa’s letter on this very forum
Love Dilruba
I am afraid I think you are being unrealistic, Shantam. Neelam/Keerti sued Jayesh, who was chosen by Osho, along with some others, to manage his work. It is for Neelam/Keerti to surrender to their Master’s wishes and stop their nonsense.
Swami Keerthi
Thank you for the post. I understand that we need to do things out of meditativeness..
But in a practical world we do have limitations because we dont hold any positionsin any meditation center to effect changes.
While i post messages , Shantam is able to call Neelam , someone will be able to appraoch Jayesh..Someone like Sw atul took up a legal confrontation. But we all dont have same accessibility. Thats the reason helplessness comes in..
If you feel people in this forum can contribute in any other way please let us know. We will do that in a respectful manner to everyone involved..Thanks.
When two lovers seperate …. they feel all possible emotions for eachother … but when existence wants them to meet …. then existence creates a situation for them to meet …. it really doesnt matter who first makes the first move … this is my experiance … only then they can meet and be strangers again ….. or be together … then it does not matter what the outcome ….
Love Alok
I would also say : Do not underestimate the challenges involved in running the Pune Resort.
It needs a rare combination of intelligence, sensitivity, toughness, business sense and awareness. I would guess Osho chose Amrito and Jayesh because they had those qualities. Remember most people who walk through the gateless gate have personality problems. They are difficult people. That is why they had to take up meditation. They are the people Amrito and Jayesh have to look after every day.
Alok … You mean to say that they dont have a personality problem … and somehow we come to a Master to drop our personalities and to come to our true self / to be authentic …..
I would disagree with you Alok.
“I would guess Osho chose Amrito and Jayesh because they had those qualities.”-you said.
I of course also don’t know, but having read some books and by intuition it does not seem his was so dictatorial to choose. Shunya in her book also explained quite clearly that Osho never chose Sheela. She pushed for it and Osho was excepting of everything.
“Remember most people who walk through the gateless gate have personality problems.”
I would like to think that the majority of people who walk through the gateless gate to attain moksha, nirvana, enlightment whatever the name. Beings that are less asleep can wish that.
Kranti: the difference between the so-called ‘old’ Osho disciples and the new arrivals in my opinion is, that after arrival we had to do some jobs on the ranch or in Pune 1 and 2, which grounded us. Best example: a few months of toilet cleaning. That was the best way to keep us from ‘flying away with the energy’ or going into mental mind fuck about ‘what is right and what is wrong’ with the ashram. Add to this a few meditations a day and a few groups and we were all ready to become the ‘new man/woman’. Some people on these forums need to take time off (do you have nothing else to do?), book a flight to India and either stay for a few months in the resort in Pune (and participate!) or visit Neelam’s place in the Himalayas. The energy in India and of Osho is still there and not in these forums!
Prem buddha ….. l agree with you … about Work meditation / worship Totally .. even though l came in 1992 March …. l did worship … and l feel to be part of the Buddha field …. has to be a call from within .. and The Master’s Energy is Ever Present … with Global seekers …
participating in a forum does take one further …. becos for me writing here … has brought a new dimension in me …. which otherwise was not possible … and to share is a joy n painful too …. but this is so beautiful / ugly to share everything …the catharsis appears ugly if one does not participate … but dance follows …
l cannot condenm this forum …. it is a sharing base for all of us !
Dilruba wrote : ” You mean to say that they (ie Amrito/Jayesh) dont have a personality problem …”
I would guess less so than Keerti/Neelam. Whilst they were suing OIF, claiming they wanted “Osho” to be free, OFI submitted claims for the trademark for themselves. I think this shows lack of consciousness if not mendacity.
Chetna….Osho choosing…..Okay, I take your point, it is a subtle business. But I was there on Jan 20th 1990, and heard Amrito say that Osho said as he was dying to Jayesh, “I leave you my dream.” Amrito sounded completely sincere to me. Partly it comes down to judging character.
Chetna wrote : “I would like to think that the majority of people who walk through the gateless gate to attain moksha, nirvana, enlightment whatever the name. ” You aren’t being a bit idealistic?
Alok .. I totally agree with you
” It needs a rare combination of intelligence, sensitivity, toughness, business sense and awareness. I would guess Osho chose Amrito and Jayesh because they had those qualities.”
It is difficult than running a corporate.
Prem Buddha
I was there in Pune last month for 3 days..It did helpe me to get in touch with myself ..
“participating in a forum does take one further ”
Yes Dilruba.. This forum has given me ability to look at so many view points and helped me to grow..
Why else one comes to the enlightened Master! To be better in bed or smell nicer? A bit trivial for me….
” OFI submitted claims for the trademark for themselves. ”
this is the point i always pointed out.. There is huge difference between ‘ No trademarks’ & ” Not agreeing to trademarks vesting with people whom we dont go along with..”
the legal battle was not at all well directed and well intended
Chetna when alok said ” People with personality problems.come there ” i feel he meant this..
It is meditation center and that too known for allowing people lot of space and freedom.. It is not like a corporate with may security / rules / regulations with which people are controlled..People with personality problems can seriously misuse the freedom easily..What is there to lose for afterall..at the most a banning..
You must have heard how Indian men are given special advice session on behaving with western Women.. Not everyone is accepting that is necessarry.. this is one of the typical decision Pune mgt had to take..
Shantam We missed asking you something
When you asked neelam to call Jayesh what was her response..Did she listen to it / accept it positively ?
Life is moving, discussion is heating up, journey of thousand miles start with single step taken in the right direction.
We all have our personality tilted in some way or another, it is a courage and compassion of Osho that he created a live space for all the personality types. People can go for Vipassana and if they don’ like to go to Kirtan they can hang around in the coffee shop or smoking area, no problem.
You are coming for Kundalini but in the mean time spontaneously you meet a lover, go home and come fresh for White robe. No guilt, No taboo, no doctrine… Pure intelligence and trust in human evolution…
This thing required Intelligence..this is what makes Osho unique, he went beyond the seminars and satsang kind of Stuff. He give a living organisation to explore our integrity, As Prem Buddha pointed that working in this environment, cleaning toilets or chopping vegetables or guarding the gates was a part of grounded process and than you add meditation techniques, groups and the relationships as a Toppings….Take any small ingredient away and you destroy the symmetry, bring your mind inside, than it is your hamburger don’t call it McDonald’s. Yes, i am loving it. Ich liebe es!¨
Osho was a representaion of ‘ beauty ‘ and he made us see beauty in everything
“The discussions were amicable and cooperative, rather than a give and take negotiation. Both sides cooperated to reach agreement based solely on the best interest of the children,”
The Above staement is from the news_
Michael Jakson’s mother and ex-wife Debbie Rowe’s conflict about the custody of the children.
Instead of children- we can put the word of our choice in our context.
Groups, meditations were not toppings, they were preparations for the final group – work…. as they still are…. there one has to bring meditation to every moment, 24/7. The ultimate group – the ultimate encounter with the self, the ultimate challenge to the still small voice within! The ultimate chance to put the self asiide.
Call it what you will, work, worship, I think you know what i mean.
You got this one wrong Shantam, and you did not answer a simple question except with sophistry. Poor form.
Heraclitus you are right. Who will ever dare to contest the refinement of your words.
“Groups, meditations were not toppings, they were preparations for the final group – work…. as they still are…. there one has to bring meditation to every moment, 24/7. The ultimate group – the ultimate encounter with the self, the ultimate challenge to the still small voice within! The ultimate chance to put the self aside.Call it what you will, work, worship.”
Shantam, and you did not answer a simple
question …?
Do you mean the question in Kranti’s post.,”When you asked neelam to call Jayesh what was her response..Did she listen to it / accept it positively ?”
If it is this one. the words are bubbling in me.
With Neelam i have spoken 4.37 minutes and can write what she said and what my impression is.
work, worship..the ultimate opportunity. Well said Heraclitus
Keerti and Heraclitus,
Here goes the conversation with Neelam. Within seconds she could remember me and mentioned, “where are you now a days?”
” In Germany. from their i am speaking”
“Don’t you visit India. We have made such a beautiful place in Dharamshala. When you come, do visit.”
I replied,” I see your website quite often and when i come for a longer time to India, may be than i make a trip up in the Himalayas”
And than i went to the point. “My purpose of calling you is that on sannyasnews.com, we are having a hot discussion and wonderful party.”
She sighed, “Beta, I am not on the Internet. Hardly i ever sit on the computer. But Keerti has mentioned to me and my letter also, he has posted.”
Than i recalled the old days when i was taking care of the Ashram Hindi letters. so i told her, it does not matter.May be someone can print out all the discussion and you can read on paper as you used to read the letters in Pune”
She said,” Yes. this is a good point but today
i am going to Delhi for a week. We are constructing a new building at Nisarga. In this connection i am going but once i am back Keerti can share the print outs.”
Before i go further to mention about my one to one talk with Jayesh. Phone was cut. I tried again after a minute. Bell was ringing but call was not taken.
But the thought was strong enough. It’s time was there.So I rang Keerti as i got his no. too from the person who gave me Neelam’s nomber.
When i said, ” Keerti Swami, i am Shantam speaking.” His first reaction was, ” from where you got my number.” i replied from Nisarga and that i have spoken with Neelam. before i could convey my suggestion about one to one talk with jayesh. Phone went cut.”
He said, ” By chance i am also near Dharamshala. Today if i visit her i can convey your idea. But to get hold of Jayesh no. is difficult. Not many people know about this and people like Sadhana Devendra, don’t even look at us, if by chance we are passing the same road.
In Delhi, in one of the functions where Neelam and Devendra both were present. Neelam asked,” Devendra, won’t you give me a hug.”
Devendra replied rudely, ” No. This is over.”
I replied that is why Neelam must speak with Jayesh. They had such a warm relation. It will be a nice surprise. Middlemen mostly spoil and people like Sadhana or Devendra are not more than office clerks. Just imagine Neelam and Jayesh meeting. for sure they will hug and once the clerks see only than they will smile and hug.”
He said,” Yes. you have a good suggestion. I will convey to Neelam and i will think also from where we can get Jayesh no.
OK. it was nice talking with you.”
” OK. bye than”, I replied in the end.
come on shantam! what did neelam say?
Anthony, do you think i censored something in my chat with Neelam?
come on shantam! what did neelam say?,
Have you read the whole conversation or was looking something in the middle?
no shantam. I write that while you were writing yours. thank you
Thnaks Anthony dear, for pointing out the mistake.
Modified sentence will be,”before i could convey my suggestion about HER one to one talk with jayesh. Phone went cut.”
On the other side, i will be glad to have a one to one talk with jayesh. Basically Beer Diplomavy will also do as USA will witness today.
“Hopefully, instead of ginning up anger and hyperbole everybody can just spend a little bit of time with some self-reflection and recognizing that other people have different points of view,” Obama said the day before. “And that’s it.”
Coming back to where we started …. l have come to realize that sharing whether thru an arguement, debate, agreement , disagreement , different points of views .. or even silence … we resolve …. to go ahead
and in this case … the court case …. cant these meditators / sanyassins …. jus … like … ordinary people call each other up ….. are they playing a bigger game ? … or have they lost the fire .. due to their age ? … l do not intend to hurt anybody … lam jus wondering …….
10 years! Imagine, how much much money and energy has been spent so far on these court fights…with NY lawyers charging about US $ 600.00 per hour. This is like the Israel/Palestine fights… very serious religious war fare.
Nobody will ever bend. One side wants no religion, no devotion, no guru..just the message – .the other side wants devotion, love and gratitude to Osho the master. Interesting scenario.
OSHO: never born and never died.
Mu guess, these parties will never find a common ground to even talk to each other again this life.
Prem Buddha,
Nice and crisp commentry. But the statement below is also valid, and that from a non meditative politician.
Many times, i think meditators behave like call girls as if only they know, how to give a good XXXX!
“I have always believed that what brings us together is stronger than what pulls us apart,” Obama said after the beer party.
l feel Osho wanted to have Abundance of All that Exists …
Ksera … Ksera ! if they want it to happen … and if these do meet somewhere … the whole Universe will get a Chance to experiance Abundance … whatever that means ! it will be a break thru ! for All
Let’s see what Obama will manage in the Middle East….
Maybe Shantam should set up a chai party.
” cant these meditators / sanyassins …. jus … like … ordinary people call each other up ‘
This is the ONLY Question which has been bothering me for last few months.
If these people who lived with Osho and did everything for years to go beyond their ego CANNOT meet as ‘ ORDINARY PEOPLE ‘ then i am not sure what are we doing here..I want to understand if there is something else to the issue ..
Ofcourse as Anthony & Prem say the Vision is different and thats why they can meet..But after all it is not their Vision..It is their Masters Vision ( If at all He had a vision .there itself things have gone wrong ) and that Master didnt have two differenrt Visions What is the need to talk / work interms of two different Visions ?
What can happen at the worst if they work together . At the most there will be few clashes on everyday basis in the actual running of a meditation center.. But that can alwys be sorted out by RESPONDING to the moment..
His whole life Osho talked about RESPONDING to the moment and NOT trying to have CLEAR CUT / CERTAIN / DEFINITE PATH.. But thats exactly what seems to be happening here..
I can understand thats a major problem with running Organizations..Yiou need clear cut path to manage things..Organization try to remove uncertainities and risk all the time…But todays Organizations are trying to come up with more dynamic way of organizing and risk..although they struggle because they dont have ‘ Meditation ‘ to ground them
Here we have the opposite ..Osho gave a solution of Inner Circle and ‘ Organism ‘ way .. Either Osho’s idea of an organism didnt work our or the people didnt have the capacity to keep alive that ‘ Organism’
Very interestingly i heard about someone Mr. Arun Wakhlu a CEO and a lover of Osho is heading a Big corporate and he has written a book titled ” Managing From The Heart Unfolding Spirit In People And : Organizations . He has combined few aspects of Meditation and Corporate management..
I am yet to read the full book though..assuming He has proposed a beautiful model , Here we have the Very Foundation of Osho shaking because the balance has gone wrong..May be there can be a link..
nearly two months ago Yogendra n me became friends on FB .. l took the initiative …… he is a sensitive n friendly guy … we have hugged a few times in the Ashram … he has always taken the initiative to hug … anyway the point l want make is … l read in his FaceBook profile … that he is a member of ‘ Zen resort n spa .. which is created by Abhijat [sanyassin] … lam wondering if there will be a time… when Yogendra becomes a fan of Osho World / Osho Nisarga …. maybe lam behaving like papparazi … had to share this … now lam wondering if l must share this ? … l will go ahead .. still having jitters … here l click … Submit Comment
It is understandable Dilruba.. Relax..He has beconme a friend and you are just wondering whether that friend can also get in touch with meditation centers run by people who have differences of opinon with Pune..Thats it.. There is nothing bad about it..
Thanx Kranti … To tell u the Truth iam njoying the Inner Waves !
and love U & All
Kranti. the point is not weather they can meet or not. sure they can meet , they can dance, they can even sleep together.
the real issue is that they have different visions of what osho really wanted, therefore a different understanding of what needs to be done with the place in pune… and this is the issue.
It is not about meeting, it is about seeing things so differently where they differ.
and this will not be bridged, because if they do, they will feel they are betraying their master´s vision.
I totally agree Anthony on the point that they have differences in the way they see Osho’s vision unfolding.
But when Osho himself didnt have different visions and very wholistic approach , what disciples interpret ‘ as His vision ‘ differently must be an illusion . isnt it?
So i feel solution is in communication.. Keep talking ..Keep talking …..Keep talking …Keep talking
Think the problem got aggravated because communication broke down and they all didnt even meet each other ..
May be Mr Arun Wakhlu can help..With few lessons on how to combine ‘ The Key Disciples’ meditation with his Organizational management / conflict resolution insights..
Is that wrong?
Anthony, I would even say that the biggest difference is not in Osho’s vision, but about their personal visions.
The differences they face are:
Love for Osho and pure business
Practice of meditation and talking about mediation/selling it to others
Love for the Master and love for being a boss
I can carry on.
The favourite statement that Osho was contradictory is pure protection of one’s doings. Changes that took place in Pune were, to my knowledge, done when Osho was not in the body. And that’s where many devoted sannyasins rebelled!
I will tell you that all the people who are banned by Puna are the most beautiful sannyasins with the best workshops to offer.
What I have seen in Pune is nowhere near what real sannaysins rebels offer. Osho is behind them and all participants feel Him.
Thus, Osho should be left out from this. He is just an excuse.
If one has never felt prayer in his heart for Osho, never felt grateful may never understand devotional song that is sang for Osho. But a mediator will accept the purity of their hearts and never ban them.
” Love for Osho and pure business .
Practice of meditation and talking about mediation/selling it to others ”
You got it exactly.. This is why i keep saying .. it is nothing to do with Osho’s Vision because Osho himself didnt have a Vision..
It is basically an issue about running the place as an efficient buiness organization ( whether we like it or not ..Thats how things will be if we need to run the place efficiently and have worldwide publishing , Licensing systems , ensure smooth flow finances etc ) amidst differences of opinions and Trademark related control issues..
After all they are beautiful meditators and running an evolving organization is a different issue altogether .
When the business & finances & Diversity of Customers grew managing became dificult. Differences cropped up..Split came..
But the core issue has nothing to do with Osho..
Osho might not have liked the idea having a ‘ corporate ‘ ..He preffered an ‘Organism’ … But we can have the best of both .. The Organism which Osho is nothing but ” Board of Directors with Meditation in the Heart “
Subject to sorting out the Trademark Issues and retaining Control , I see a tremondous possibility of having a successful organization called ‘ Osho Unlimited ” with Globally run Meditation centers under a licensing system , having control over worldwide publishing and with affliations of other organizations running therapies ( Kind of outsourcing therapies )..Only difference needs to be the organization should be supervised by 21 Board of Directors with Meditation as the Core aspect of their life )
Mr.Arun Wakhlu can help / Ramesh Balsekar was heading a large Indian Bank as a CEO.. People like him can help to put in place the structure ..after all Osho took Visions from every master and allowed all kinds of therapies to help meditators ..why not disciples borrow Visions from others for running the place as an organization?
If people truly love Osho and they want to protect His vision and make it truly available to as many people as possible globally , these are the things they should be doing rather than fighting legal battles between themselves..
According to you … then even sanyas can be given Ramdeo baba … as he is managing his ashram very well … listen my Dear … Kranti … l feel you are going off track … its about Truth…Osho’s vision not about management in that sense … look deeper …
Chetna wrote : “What I have seen in Pune is nowhere near what real sannaysins rebels offer. Osho is behind them and all participants feel Him.”
Have you been to Pune, Chetna?
Dilruba.. Before Osho left the body he created the Inner Circle for managing the administrative part.. i am not saying anything different.. I am saying that Administrative team should be advisory team because the problem is seen in exceution of day to day things
An organization will always be on the background.. Even now it is the same..Osho International is trying to achive the same.. i am suggesting same wine in new bottle as it is obivious that inefficiencies and communication brakdowns are the real cause of what we see now..
It is alright to keep asking the 4 or 5 people to come together and talk.. What about 2030?
Osho created the Inner Circle.. But the Inner Circle is nothing but 21 individualsl..they need another entity to run the show on the basis of advice given by them..thats where having an organization comes into play..
this will not affect Osho’s truth or meditations in anyway..
If you look at it , we now need commercial organization to carry out all the functions in the resort..
Do you think we are going to have all the meditation center where people come and clean toilets like Pune 1 ..I dont think people will do anything beyond suggested meditations.. You will see completely different type of Meditators.. Meditators from market place ..
Imagine a combination of Osho’s organism model with an organization around it.. It can be model to the whole world..
Only after seeing all conflicts i am thinking on these lines.. Nothing wrong in thinking differently ..isnt it?
This place was created by Osho for his Sanyassins / seekers
to Work together and in this way Work on themselves …. administration is also part of that Work … l dont see any sense in your vision … SORRY
ya Fusion is the way to go not confusion … l see that you are confusing … it is but natural to be distracted as you are reading this book by some efficiency freak … take your time n
look within … sorry if lam being harsh
maybe u can watch ‘ l leave you my dream’ instead
Anyone interested can check J Krishnamoorthy’s view on having an organization / foundation and its use.. for protecting the teaching…This is from a man who was dead against organizations.. Every living master creates copyrights / organization for protecting his work.. Only we Osho disciples fight on this ..
http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/worldwide-information/foundations.php
No problem Dilruba.. I respect your views.. But in my oipnion lack of & acceptance for having an organization is the core issue.. read JK’s views
my dear … its about Osho n not about anybody else even if its
J.Krishnamurty … the point is OSHO … dont u get it …
” you are reading this book by some efficiency freak ”
He is not.. he is a Osho lover.. He is talking about running places from heart … Not sure whether he took sannyas.. Read the book and then tell me ..Please..atleast read a review
Dilruba
I totally agree with you Osho is Osho.. No comparision
But what we are seeing is only the teachings left by both ..teachings dont walk & spread on their own.. they need support
Unfortunately, the old man is dead , so he can not come and tell us what HIS real vision is. therefore inevitably everyone will have his/ her own version of it.
I do not see any problem with that. the world is big enough to have all the visions and understandings possible.
The problem is that you guys want that in pune and that is simply not going to happen.
the beautiful sannyasins, chetna, who were banned from pune were once banning other people, like neelam´s gang. it is the same game all over.
I insist this effort is useless.
Anthony.. I have started agreeing with you on number of things..
What you think about revamping and restructirng the exixting organization into more effective one ? One world head quarters as Osho said..
wondering why everyone is conveniently ignoring what Osho talked about ‘One World Head Quarters’…
Well Osho said so many things that if you take his saying you will go mad.
But I will add one more point why I think the effort is useless. the young people who go to pune have no connection with a devotional way of relating to the spiritual quest.
Even in the west that is unthinkable. look at the pictures of amrito´s meeting with arun: 80% indians… and they are in canada. IT is very rare that a young western person will feel any affinity with a devotional path.
i was in pune last winter. 90% of the people are not sannyasins and they looked to me like sincere seekers. whenever they saw any sign of devotional thing like clapping with osho in discourse they looked like: ” that is a weird”!
and if you look at it from distance, it is weird. It looks like trying to shake hands with a tv set.
It is jut not going to happen.
The world has changed. those manifestations do not find heart on most young people.
So Anthony… the world is moving completely towards Wisdom path and moving away from Devotion path.. Everything becoming very Zennish.. May be thats why Osho also moved towards Zen completely..Am i right?
I do not know about osho´s motivation. but perhaps he sensed it. the days of the masters and the disciples are gone. you can have a teacher, but surrender and devotion will not play a big part in this journey… and I think Osho was gearing in that direction at the end. when he emphasized doubt over surrender and he said he was not a master, but a friend.
he also said he talked about religion because there was no other word for it, but he was basically anti-religion.
Infact that is one of the reason which surprises me when people have major fear that Devotion will become prevalent and all.. By nature of Osho’s teachings it is difficult to create a religion around Him..
And one more thing is if you look at the kind of teachers like adya / mooji ..they fall in the category you mentioned.. Everyone is jumping into Neo advaitha bandwagon..
” when he emphasized doubt over surrender and he said he was not a master, but a friend.”
We may not know.. But assuming Osho was moving in that direction people like Amrito / Jayesh will have fair idea of what Osho wanted in later years and may be thats why there is a major disconnect.. and that may be the reason why they become increasignly allergic towards the words master / diciple etc..
human mind is stupid beyond what we can think.
we can make a religion out of anything. I said before how ion 1995 the sales men outside were making plaster chairs that imitated the one in white robe every night.
But I think the problem is deeper than trying to prevent religion to form.
The devotional way is is just outdated… people in pune just do not feel like that towards osho.
Totally agree with you ..So what is left is how to run that place along the new thinking.. But while we can talk about having one organization / foundation in control.. like any other contemporary master’s ( above example of JK ) foundation lot of damage seems already done with these legal battles..
Persons who think Neelam was banning people seem to be a fanatic of their kind. First of all Neelam never had enough authority to behave like this. She was a team player. Every issue was discussed with her inner circle colleagues and the most prominent ban of her time was Swami Chaitanya Bharti, known as “Gurudev” by his people.
It was a constitutional question and the matter was discussed for weeks and equal opportunity was given to him to express his view and opinion.
And the way i have heard, he is one of the best meditation camp leader. Chetna can note it down.
With utter detachment, i will say Neelam was enjoying her position having the advantage of being in her own country but with grace and dignity, she was the poster woman from the world of Osho, whereas many others must go through the plastic surgery of the body and mind to represent this. An American or Australian Secretary would have enjoyed the same in the western world, and this grace was indigestible to the other under the hill beauties of the Harem.
This one cannot say about her long term partner Tathagat. He was a man who could get easily intoxicated by the dose of power. Naturally Power is a big Aphrodisiac, people can work 18 hours per day after a heart transplant surgery, if they are at the peak of their carrier.
Osho has given the responsibility to him because of this “Scorpions” in him. I think i was one of the first who has given him the pet name Saddam Hussein. I was continuously afraid that once he knows the source of this name, my entry is banned, this i don’t want and also i cannot resist my observation.
As raw power was being radiated from Tathagat Aura, Jayesh chopped off his wings, as they have a totally different upbringing, conditioning and socio-financial background.
So people who blame Neelam because she is down and out, must contemplate about their intrinsic gullibility.
Somehow the Tathagat factor and the jealousy of the other Ma’s was the main reason for the rift in the working relation between the two main persons in the commune and i am sure, they must be missing each other’s working skills.
I had the opportunity to work with most of the top notch people in the administration and also as my interest in astrology. And also if you walk with open eyes in the ashram, it was like we are all naked in the Hamam, so it is quite difficult to befool others by wearing designers clothes.
For creating such a magnificent prism of life, my heart will always bow down at His lotus feet. In spite of the fact that Osho as a Master and Osho as a human being may seem a bit contradictory sometime, but this is with everybody. While giving His extraordinary commentaries on Krishna’s Bhagwad Geeta in around 10 bulky volumes, he has mentioned many times, where Krishna is a man and where he is the awakened one.
These 10-12 volumes are the Dal Chapati and BMW of all most all the contemporary Indian gurus!
“I was continuously afraid that once he knows the source of this name, my entry is banned, this i don’t want and also i cannot resist my observation.”
Shantam , as i said people were banned all the time for different reasons. i am not saying Neelam was alone in this: it was Osho´s policy !
And again, it was their place so, they could do with it what they wanted. I am not against it. what I am against is NOW being against the policy… that seem hypocritical to me.
Kranti, Osho did not want a ” world organization”. he saw the trappings of that with the ranch experience… “just a place for you to come for a few days of few weeks and be rejuvenated and then bring that fragrance back home”… as he said.
I do not think there is any need for any world organization… I think things are pretty fine and realistic as they are.
Anthony.. I took that Osho saying from our own friends OFi website.. I used it from the context of one organization having core rights..
The interpretaion of this seesm difficult for me as he meant too many things ..
“The world headquarters will be publishing my books, will be releasing my tapes, videotapes, will be doing every kind of work. But it has no domination over anybody. All communes of the world are independent. All centers of the world are absolutely free. They are under nobody’s guidance. My sannyasins are directly related to me. The world headquarters will simply function so that you can have a connection with me. Otherwise you don’t have any place to whom to ask where I am, what is happening to me. The world headquarters is not in any way a power over any sannyasin, over any other sannyas centers, ashramas, communes. It has nothing to do with that. It is my secretariat. And its function is to convey to me messages of importance and to convey to the sannyasins my messages of any importance to anybody. It is not an organization. It is not a structure. It is simply a functional office.”
Anthony you say:
“Even in the west that is unthinkable. look at the pictures of amrito´s meeting with arun: 80% indians… and they are in canada. IT is very rare that a young western person will feel any affinity with a devotional path.”
You are right but what do you think about Canada? Its one of the most multicultural places in the world and its predicted that by 2020 the visible miniroty will be a visible majority.
Ofcourse the localilty of many of the meditation events in Canada do fall in densley populated urban-south asian areas. However, even with that, in this camp there were homegrown non-indian Canadians who thoroughly enjoyed it. One fellow Cdn and lebanese woman with no affinity to the path of devotion took Sannyas as well.
But you are using the politics of numbers Anthony and the visual stereotype of race. How many of the so called Indians on the pictures do you know personally? Many have of grown up in this western society as well, but you cannot count them as being non-western solely on skin colour.
But these events are growing and more people of different races/faces are comming in. But it had to start somewhere and Osho’s name really has been washed up for a while in the West, so its Indians that really know of him most.
But Anthony you do seem to be cooking the OIF books because you drop these one liners about Osho and how he completley “dropped” the path of surrender. This is simply not true, not is the opposite true. But you do a vested interest in protecting OIF because they are the suppliers of your research papers!!
Hmmm…
Amrito
” I think things are pretty fine and realistic as they are.”
I honestly think i am also moving towards this understanding.. after all the discusions in this forum and so many view points … I will catch up with you soon Anthony..
P.S: I did send a new thread request to editors to discuss about this need for ‘ one organizational model ‘. Not sure whether it will get published.. But i am also starting to accept few realities..
plus take a look at ZorbaStudio.com where Sw. Rakesh held a meditation camp for Sw. Arun. It was a very balanced Meditation Camp with all races including Indian, American, African American and Chinese.. You’re argument is biased and not grounded in any verifiable truth..
Zorba Studio is in Dallas, Texas, the homecity of George W Bush…
Amrito
The devotional is still there ..it is not fully gone or something like that.. But it seems majority are moving towards more Zennish type of approach..
Also we need to define what we mean by devotion.. When devotion is used in the context of Osho it is not the same as when it is used in the context of some other religion..
With Osho even devotion was not blind..
But Anthony also said ” But I think the problem is deeper than trying to prevent religion to form “
….You do seem to be cooking the OIF books because you drop these one liners about Osho and how he completley “dropped” the path of surrender. This is simply not true, not is the opposite true. But you do a vested interest in protecting OIF because they are the suppliers of your research papers!!
Well said, Amrito.
“…. people were banned all the time for different reasons. i am not saying Neelam was alone in this: it was Osho´s policy !”
Anthony this point is clear. People will be banned in future too, in what so ever way, 17, Koregaon Park gets new make up.
Therefore, a working system, a changing flowing constitution is needed based on the over all vision of the Master so that people in the authority don’t use the power for their vested interest.
How it fits in Osho context, i try to create an example.
Say, shantam is one of the inner circle member. Will it be fair, if i try to ban the new boy friend of the woman who was with me till the other day. Unfair…
Same way, some woman wants to be with me and out of anger and jealousy, his previous guy throws his soup on my face in Zorba…sure he will be banned. i think it is fair…if i throw the soup on some one’s face, i should be also banned….simple.
One of my best friend has become a little guru but he visit the ashram like everybody else, to ban his entry will be not fair, but if he comes with his group of disciples and they are making Uh Ah Ihe around him, His presence their will be not required.
The place is for seekers and not for those who have found. but any of the meditation camp leader, who is not distorting Osho techniques but still brings his special skills in side the camps will neither be judged nor banned. Like everybody else he must also feel at home in the recharing arena.
if any one writes a letter with right logic and point out the sleepiness of the inner circle, that person will not be punished on the contrary there will be a circulation that please don’t be shy or afraid to express your visions and our limitations…as all of His people are commited for His vision and the well being of fellow travelers…
and inner circle people will also take the charge only for the limited nos. of years, after all their are other caliber people in the lot and nothing is more beautiful than to simply hang around and go on doing The Work.
No need to say.. people with criminal records, drug peddlers, thieves should not think to hide themselves among the sannasins..they will be found and banned,,,
Amrito.. dear, to say:
“.You do seem to be cooking the OIF books because you drop these one liners about Osho and how he completley “dropped” the path of surrender. This is simply not true, not is the opposite true. But you do a vested interest in protecting OIF because they are the suppliers of your research papers!!”
just makes me laugh. I have been accused of being a devoted sannyasin, a P R. for the inner circle, a blind cult follower, etc. you name it.
what people have problems is: putting me in a box. I am just representing my self and my views, if I agree with someone else, it is because they agree with me, not otherwise. I belong to no party line
.
amrito, do not challenge me with osho quotes. I am the biggest evangelical in this respect. I can get you tons of quotes from 1984 on where Osho speaks agaisnt surrender and he says he is no one´s master.
You just were not around then. But he did say that. Just because it goes against your own belief system you get angry… but that is your problem… not Osho´s… do you want to try me?
OSHO: June 7, 1988, from the series This. This. A Thousand Times This – and it echoes it all:
“I have been speaking for thirty-five years continuously, searching for those who will understand. It has been a long search, but I have found all of you – and more around the earth – who have started to understand a little bit. But just a little bit is more than enough. Just a cup of tea, a little taste and then you can go on your own. You know the way, you have felt it. Even the bamboo’s are no longer commenting. When you are feeling it so solidly, there is no need for any comment. You are the very human beings on the earth today who are, at this moment, so much blessed, so much in tune with existence. This silence is just a simple proof.”
ok i have to go to work.. see you guys tomorrow..
I wait for your reply amrito…
Below is the description of a spa. Just read the ad.
Swirled in the sacred mists of time, nestled in the Himalayas is “Ananda”, a world class Destination Spa.Once the residence of Maharaja of Tehri-Garhwal, it is dedicated to today’s traveller , who is looking for innovative ways to restore and rejuvenate his energies. Grounded in Ayurveda, Yoga and Vedanta combined with contemporary international therapies which enhance and augment the original, Ananda is the ultimate escape from the mundane to the spiritual, where every corner spells harmony and every colour soothes the senses.
If you sell the 17, Koregaon Park Pune without bringing the USP i.e OSHO, the master who resided among His disciples and here you don’t just meet the facade of business executives but the throbing heart behind,,,,,wihtout this kind of attitude..the place is doomed…as there are thousands of better health spas all around with much better infrastructure and natural view.
Without the Master’s stroke, Dynamic or Kundalini are one of the stress release techniques. People can do at their home or in the local centres @4- 5 Euro/doller /pound per meditation.
If people want to come to Pune, a crowded polluted city, it is because they are nostalgic about this place or they have heard about this place from their sannyasin freinds/relatives or they are the western young tourists who are exploring India, from Goa to Kulu Manali, from Pune to Rishikesh inbetween Banglore, Pondichary, Varanasi, Agra, Delhi, Jaipur.
Alok ‘Have you been to Pune, Chetna?’-of course,I have. Otherwise why comment.
Anthony, ‘the beautiful sannyasins, chetna, who were banned from pune were once banning other people, like neelam´s gang. it is the same game all over.’- It is true, and the game and it does not look pretty. And Neelam did ban some, I heard.
‘whenever they saw any sign of devotional thing like clapping with osho in discourse they looked like: ” that is a weird”’-ha ha ha, since when capping has become a devotion?
Anthony, devotion comes after ripe meditations, it is the next step. You are really confusing it with something else.
‘Even in the west that is unthinkable. look at the pictures of amrito´s meeting with arun: 80% indians…’ – this is possibly true in some areas. However, half of Russia loves Arun and UK camps are full of Westerners, so don’t you worry. But Puna is doing a great job in the West by phoning Western centres and threatening them to close them down if they allow Arun in. They are so scared of his “devotion” that are really loosing the plot. Hence, it is much harder to organise Arun’s visits in the West. Just a peace of info for you.
Anthony, please do me a favour and listen the answer Osho gave to Vivek on the fact he is a friend. I simply cannot stand when truth is manipulated.
Friend
No mala
No gachami
Osho actually said-no Buddhafield for those ‘friends’ either.
Anthony, what do you know about devotion, about master-disciple relationship and love?
It is a mystery-not a dissertation!
Prem Buddha,
few days before you wrote about the prices in Pune.
Here are the prices of a health Spa in India, mentioned in my post above-
Comparatively… it seems resort is doing wonderful with its price structure….
And you have just added the wonderful feelings expressed by Osho….if we can keep that atmosphere… it will be like buying gold nuggets with cents.
Room Type Occupancy 3 Nights (USD) 5 Nights (USD)
Palace View Double 1695 /2410
Valley View Double 1820 /2610
Deluxe Suite Double 2235/ 3265
The Ananda Suite Double 2695/ 3995
Viceregal Suite Double 3065 /4580
One Bedroom Villa with Pool Double 3505 /5230
Please add 7% Government taxes to the above-mentioned tariff.
Anthony you say:
“amrito, do not challenge me with osho quotes. I am the biggest evangelical in this respect. I can get you tons of quotes from 1984 on where Osho speaks agaisnt surrender and he says he is no one´s master.”
Haha don’t challenge a computer Anthony because nowadays you can simply just type a search word for whatever subject from Osho discourses and you get answers in a matter of seconds.
But look you say: I can get you quotes from 1984—-so what? That;s not the only year Osho lived is it?
But please, go back to my questions for you.
How much do you know about Canada? What’s with your statement
“Even in the west that is unthinkable. look at the pictures of amrito´s meeting with arun: 80% indians…”
What do you exactly mean by this? You keep comming back to “indians” vs “westerners”, as if western white youth are the only ones applicable to Osho’s message.
The fact is, the whole world is basically western since the industrial revolution. Go anywhere in the world and you’ll see Hollywood, western fashion, western music and western architecture. So Westernism is globalism basically. And your “indians” are basically western as well and play a remarkable role for tommorows world.
Back to the point of these 80% Indians…To be very specific, the indian subcontinent is vast and very diverse and very multicultural. To a biased and ignorant eye India is basically “brown”. But to an inquisitive educated person or “indian” they can see that a South Indian vs A north Indian vs Nepali vs Gujarathi vs Muslim vs Punjabi vs Bengali are diverse and different.
All these different groups were within the meditation Camp and perhaps in India they could not have met in one room. And so back to you and Pune.
Pune is great for what it is; a tropical luxury holiday meditation resort where one can enjoy tequila and vipassana all in the same day. I’m sure there are tons of people whom are attracted to this lifestyle where your ego can remain your ego and Osho can be a nice book on a table.
So you think western youth will love Pune and emrbace Osho? I’m sorry to say that both white and brown have been offended by Pune’s lack of emphatic behavior and poor customer service skills (for a seemingly commerical structure its strange they lack these skills). Read blogs about your “western” youth’s experiences at Pune and you’ll find that they think exactly what Pune doesn;t want them to think:
1) Its a cult with too many rules
2) not what Osho was about
3) too commercialized
4) too restricted
5) organized religion
Its funny how so many come to this conclusion for a place thats trying to shut down centers around the world for these very reasons.
I met a “white” westen youth here ( who like me, grew up in Canada too, but just to differentiate for you), who worked in Pune for 8 months. He worked side by side with Dr. Amrito and noticed that the man was an alcholic and a chain smoker. He kept a secret hiding place for his vodka (under the computer table) while he worked and a secret room where he could smoke and smoke for hours…what great people running an Osho Meditation Resort and all of Osho’s work.
He decided to find out more about Osho and ended up in Osho Om Bodhisatva Commune in Dehradun and ended up taking Sannyas within a week.
But hey just because people are calling you all these names Anthony doesn’t mean that one of them can’;t be right. And i’m betting on the fact that you’ve got vested interests with Pune because deep down you’ve always wanted it to be like this.
You never took Sannyas, you never surrendered and you never were devoted to Osho while you were around the man for over 30 years. So you love what Pune is now because you never liked the attachment or committment and now you are free to “belong” to this non-belonging place called Osho Meditation Resort.
But I still think you’re a great guy and have alot of respect for you.
Love,
Amrito
thanks amrito. for me to be called a non surrendered sannyasin is not an offense … it is just who I am.
As I said before, In pune they agree with me… it is like that. I am my own man. I am nobody´s follower. but that does not mean i do not love osho and his work… but i am an outsider, even to pune, even to the resort.
yes Dr. Amrito is an alcoholic, but he was the guy osho was most fond of. weird ha? He was the guy Osho chose to be the head of his inner circle.
Vivek was maniac depressive, and she was his girlñfriend and the caretaker he chose… weird ah?
What do you want me to say… it was his world, your world, not mine. I just say what i like and what i do not like that is all.
I lived many years in the states and have spent a lot of time in Europe and yea, the youth has no connection to a veneration, devotional path… what do you want me to say?
The world has changed. everytime you had an osho event in london in the early eighties you had 2500 people, now you are lucky if you get 150.
Most meetings and camps do not get more than 80 people. You know this is true. you have seen it yourself.
personally it is not my trip to woship Osho, but if someone feels at ease doing it, it is his birthright… I will not object, although I do not think it is what the old man wanted.
yess you are right that at the current moment there aren’t as many people comming to events as before, but things are strangely growing. These days 40 has become a good number. But, the thing is, seeds need to be planted and watered often for gardens to sprout.
Osho himself planted seeds in forms of meditation centers, availability of his books, media, meditation events etc. But when the big honcho organization doesn’t motivate the movement to continue and grow freely (without signing a contract) how is anything going to grow?
And whether somone feels devotional or not is upto that person and I certainly do not force anyone to it. But if someone does feel it, I don’t condenm it or restrict it. Otherwise whomsoever attends the event is fully free to their own understanding.
Now you weren’t closest around Osho physically and you already admit that you get most of your information supplied by many members of the OIF. So this isn’t the story that I hear from the greater sannyas world.
Its a great mystery which many don’t want to talk about but there are many who even feel that Vivek was murdered by Jayesh, hence the secretive nature of her death. There are witnesseses who have spoken to many sannyasins regarding the events of her death too. But no one has done a full out investigation yet, so the story remains a mystery.
Who knows who feeding Osho information regarding what. Its strange the circumstances surrounding his death too. I heard there were many weird instances that day and discrpencies in stories about the timing of Osho’s death. I might be opening up a can of worms…But there wasn’t a full investigation into Osho’s death either. I heard his body was burned with gasoline..such a rush to get rid of the body. Jayesh’s behavior was noted as very frantic and edgy.
Neelam Ma also said that Osho had predicted the man who was to murder him would be the one doing his greatest work.
No one really wants to talk about it, but many do behind closed doors.
A mystery in the end..
and you say:
” lived many years in the states and have spent a lot of time in Europe and yea, the youth has no connection to a veneration, devotional path… what do you want me to say?”
But comman Anthony, you don’t even have facebook yet!! There’s an Osho Fan page with over 30 000 members! They love his photos, his books, his history and his contribution!
“There’s an Osho Fan page with over 30 000 members! They love his photos, his books, his history and his contribution!”
My impression of the face book page is some guy impersonating Osho… with many others worshiping. Little to no discussion. Very religious and cultish.
Oh yea… and some very lovely photos are posted.
yes Dr. Amrito is an alcoholic, but he was the guy osho was most fond of. weird ha? He was the guy Osho chose to be the head of his inner circle…
Anthony, the above statement of yours need an urgent and permanent CORRECTION….i hope you do this yourself. Alok John in this form is also typing the same kind of facts dilluted with the ficitions.
Just read these Osho words…so much diagnostic in the present context..
“Man’s misery is that he is trying to do the impossible;he is trying to force the heart to serve the mind,which is impossible. This is your chaos,this is your mess……”
Anthony … Each one of us is expressing in the best possible we understand Osho and his Vision …. we all are here together becos of one common thread … which is Osho … it does not matter when n how they came to him and how close / far anyone was to him … somehow each one feels HIS energy .. whether he is devotional or Zennish … or whatever .. why judge ..
Osho’s vision was Zorba the Buddha and his last words to HIS people in public were SAMMASATl …
Seriously / Playfully take Sanyas … take the jump … becos then you will know and maybe then what you share will not be a spectator’s research but partcipant’s contribution to his WORK
only then will you know What compassion is of the Master is and how it is working on us … all ..
you are only talking about ground realities now … maybe you will get a chance to Fly and Dive into the depts … too
you will know much more than you know now … lam sure
love Dilruba
Correction : whether he [Sanyassin ] is Devotional ….
Zennish, Sufist.. Advaitist..Bhakti…all have their takers. Unique personality and individuality and unique experiences people go through before they take the journey from religions to the other higher dimensions of inner exploration.
And what a gift of technology and the prosperity of the last few decades, that people have become more beautiful, smart and charming. At the click of the maus, we can see millions of images of people making love, we can go through all the wisodm of ages in any subject in a day..
Still.. deep down we are looking for a connection with some person, some cause, some motive; where our heart can say without hinderance,” I Love You”.. for a day, year or a life time, time is not the essence..the feelings are!
Osho has given equal representaion to all the available types, this is His greatness, this is His vision and few from us are going to shout till the inventory is not restored, or prove that particular ingredient has got the Swine flu!
Swine Flu, not because you think but the test reports. Many times doctors make people sicker than they already are.
There are dumb-asses in the world who think “I Love you” part of our constitution is a bit primitive a bit instinctive, a bit uncultured….if it is in their hands they would like to take the water element out of the the four elements…. . Somewhere they are right too, more than two third of the earth is water… what a waste of real estate!
” a working system, a changing flowing constitution is needed based on the over all vision of the Master so that people in the authority don’t use the power for their vested interest. ”
” If you sell the 17, Koregaon Park Pune without bringing the USP i.e OSHO, ……..the place is doomed”
I keep saying this in my own way..in my own words.. We need a revamped organizational structure..forgive me if i sound more like management guy..In career thats what i am and thats my market place….But i do see the need for it..
Anthony jus want to add … we know the ground realities too
and this is not any kind of conversion … in case you think so then lam sorry in anticipation …
I appreciate the invitation to take sannyas dilruba. I have to say no one ever pushed me to that, although I have been around sannysins for years. And that is what i like about them: there was no intention to convert me or inviting me to any club… they just accepted me for what I was, as I accepted them for what they were.
It is not my trip babe…specially if the big man is gone.
Amrito. I have heard those stories too, but I have found no base for them.
Vivek, nirvano then, was maniac depressive, she was coming in and out of the ashram, going to europe and so forth. she was not well at the end. I have a brazilean friend who did mystic rose with her. Jahesh was her boyfriend at the time and when she died, osho did let him go to her burning gath.
It is uncertain, as shunyo said, what happened. Dr. Amrito used to prepare her medicines, nobody knows if she took and accidental or intentional overdose.
Regarding osho´s death… again no one knows. we could speculate anything, but what it is certyain is that he died surrounded by the people he chose to be closer to him. weather they killed him or not… how to know that?
Sheela said that osho had asked Dr. amrito to kill him when “carring his body” would be too much of a nuisance (actually that is the reason why shanti b. tried to kill amrito in the ranch)
Again, this is just science fiction. there is no way to know what is the truth.
I meant ” osho did not let him go to her burning gath”
let me share one more thing … the person who was Nirvano’s legal husband is a Dear friend … he said she looked so beautiful in her death too … jus like a porceline doll … ! when he saw her in the nude after she was declared dead … in Ruby hall hospital jus before taking her to burning ghats
Anthony, i apreciate your sportsmanship and your openness to stand for the miniority opinion. I really really appreciate your points, your journey, your path.
This is also the ground reality that most of the people connected with Osho feel that the changes are imposed by the powerful lobby, as if the other people are utterly mediocre, and can be brain washed by the official propaganda machinary. Unfortunately we don’t have the system of Refrendum till now, that would have made clear. how mush is Whiskey and how much is Soda.
Might is right till a certain extent but to win the hearts is a different ball game.
So it is my humble suggestion to the people concerned that for God sake! come out from your dark curtained glass houses…and face the colors of reality, face the concern of the “public opinion”, here i mean X number of sannyasins.
Nobody is against somebody. Sometime we are simply paranoid from our own shadow.
This is a fact that nothing grows under the Baniyan tree but to say Osho loved this or that functionary more than the others is demeaning His love.
For sure, he has to show appreciation to the people, to give them juice and nourishment like the Photographer Nishkriya; how many times in the open gathering Osho has mentioned him as a stone head zen master.
Same way a British Doctor with extraordinary personality can be a treasure for any Master, but physician is a physician, nothing more nothing less. There is no extra constituional authority.
He doesnot love static, stagnatic attitude, not river but rivering, not love but loving, no religion but religious….and so on.
thanks anthony for the info, but I dont know if I’d readily accept if Vivek was a maniac depressant. It seems like an easy way to conclude a death. But it all depends on who fead you the information, Dr. Amrito or Shunyo or Anando? Or any members of the current management, because you know where i’m getting at–how credible are the sources?
Do you know if the Doc was an alcoholic and chain smoker before 1990? Heavy drinking and smoking usually happen in an environment which you’d expect to be completely oppposite of a meditation resort no?
Garimo, don’t know what you’re talking about in regards to the group.. There is an Osho group on facebook that has lots of discussion as well.
Are you the German Garimo from the Darshan diaries by the way?
-Amrito
Amrito, I like you a lot and hope we meet one day, but..
.”Read blogs about your “western” youth’s experiences at Pune and you’ll find that they think exactly what Pune doesn;t want them to think:
1) Its a cult with too many rules
2) not what Osho was about
3) too commercialized
4) too restricted
5) organized religion”
It is big place, anyone can walk thru the door, lots of fools (and non fools) walk through the door, you need rules and restrictions, there have always been complaints like that, how do the young people know “what Osho was about.”?
“I heard his body was burned with gasoline..such a rush to get rid of the body. Jayesh’s behavior was noted as very frantic and edgy.”
I was there that night. I have no idea if they used gasoline to get the fire going or not. Osho had just died. People react in all sorts of ways to a death including becoming frantic and edgy. It was a terrible responsibility and burden to communicate this to the sannyasins there at White Robe that night. No one knew how they would react. At least one sannyasin killed himself that night, jumping from a hotel roof. Sannyas, then at least, was full of unstable people. It was the wisest thing to do, to bring the body to Buddha Hall for a few minutes and then off to the burning ghats. Otherwise there would have been more suicides and idiocy.
Dear Chetna,
I thought I posted this earlier, but now I can’t see it. Sorry if this appears twice.
Anyway, in regards to your remarks about Pune phoning Western centers and threatening to close them down if the let Arun in, please see the May/June Viha Connection magazine in which we published a full-page ad for Arun’s and Jyoti’s visits to US and Canadian Osho centers. I have not heard of Pune calling or closing down Osho centers before or after Arun’s visit. Both Jyoti and Arun gave sannyas to many new people, and several new Osho centers were opened. You can check http://www.tapoban.com for beautiful photos of Arun’s tour. He has many invitations for next year, and he will be most welcome to return.
Love,
Dhanyam
Did Osho “choose” Amrito and Jayesh to run the resort?
A bit more on this difficult subject, because in a way of course, Osho being enlightened, was beyond choice….
If you took sannyas in Pune when Osho was alive, you completed a form which included questions on profession and skills. If you read Devageet’s story, he had only been a sannyasin a little while while when he was asked to become Osho’s dentist; he had written he was a dentist on the form. So Osho “chose” Devageet to be his dentist. I guess Devaraj/Amrito wrote on the form he was a doctor, and that is how he became Osho’s doctor.
As Anthony points out, Osho liked some people more than others, like Vivek/Nirvano for example. He chose who was to be in the Inner Circle. So obviously He did chose sometimes.
‘ So obviously He did chose sometimes’
Thats looking from our view point.. Choicelesness simpley mean you wait until present moment and respond.. But after that response some choice would have happened ..It is not lgical to say ‘He chose ‘ after wards.. At some point He had to do things..Is it not ?
>>>Garimo, don’t know what you’re talking about in regards to the group.. There is an Osho group on facebook that has lots of discussion as well.
My impression of facebook is it’s format is not very conducive to discussion. Many people posting one line comments or “thumbs up – I like this” doesn’t align with my ideas of what a discussion is – and also, that does not mean I think it should be different than it is. It’s just how I observe it. I also don’t have any disregard for the cultish, religious or zen-ish aspects of sannyas. I recall several times Osho talking about the differences between students, disciples and devotees and how each is a progressive stage in ones development.
I remember loving (at the time) cultishly being part of the commune before and during the ranch days… but I don’t think I would ever choose to go back to experience things in those ways again as I have learned new ways of experiencing, but I can have a understanding of people who are in that place now… and be at peace with it without interfering.
For myself, I don’t see the need for what has been described as the “heart vs. head” approach to resort operations. My thinking is Sannyas is large enough for both to coexist without one trying to impose their notions onto the other. I see no way for a student to become a devotee if he/she would be deprived of the disciple stage of development.
But that’s me and it’s okay to not agree on our ideas… but sharing understandings is cool.
>>>Are you the German Garimo from the Darshan diaries by the way?
nope, I’m not famous or very infamous.
regarding your questions Amrit. noone could be chain smoker or an alcohol drinker around Osho. he was hipper sensitive to these smells. So I do not think Dr. amrito smoked or drank around Osho.
regarding the information about vivek mental illness. I got it from many sources. i specialty former boyfriends and friends.
this information was not “in the open” for a very obvious reason: she was the person closer to osho most of the time.
Yes Anthony … this shows that what appears to be … is not always the Truth … it is Deeper than any perception … whether we agree or dont agree … Truth … is beyond our perception … Chareveti … Chareveti ….
The discourses of Osho is a Holy Book of 21st centrury. If seen, listened and read with heart, they will prove no less than Bible, Koran, Gita etc.etc. for furtherance of our consciousness, very simple and can be understood easily by Sanyasins or non-sanyasins of East and West.
The efforts being flashed here thru Shantam, Keerti, Dilruba and Kranti is expected to serve a great purpose for all of us. It is the need of the time, for the sake of humanity AND A CALL TO all Sanyasins to COME BACK HOME at Pune, where the Master is available invisiably with his vibes, of course, without body.
Friends, death keeps no calender, before it is too late, let’s resove our ego, without allowing ego to participate, after all we all are out of White Robes Brotherhood but coz of our Master Osho.
Even roadside preachers are selling their products, by mxing the discourses of Osho, with new anectdoes, clearly stealing from the books/CDs of Osho and labelling as their own, with their copy rights, by offering employement to the un-employed educated youth, to listen, copy and prepare notes for them. Ladies Gurus in the market today, with such notes reach at dias, and speak to what they do not know as to what they are speaking direct from the Parlours, and are running their business, but because of our Master and his discourses, crammed by them. Almost in all religions, the preachers have a long queue to utter, after listening Osho, with the connivance of politicians and other rougues.
It is the high time, for Osho Sanyasins to reach Pune on 19th January 2010 and should participate with full positive energy of Shantam (Iqbal), Keerti, Neelam, Jranti, Dilruba, of course, me too…..I joined on canvassing of Swami Gurudyal Singh duringin 1974.
LOVE ALL…..Amrito, Jayesh and others.
Chinmaya means SWAMI ANAND CHINMAYA – name blessed by Osho……
Thank you Chinmaya.. You have touched our hearts with your post… I am in tears…
With Love
Kranti
SWAMI ANAND CHINMAYA . I keep reading your posts again..You touched me deeply
“It is the high time, for Osho Sanyasins to reach Pune on 19th January 2010 …”
Dear Management of Pune, you certainly read all these posts.
There is certain energy from sannyasins to meet in Pune, are you welcoming?
If the gates are open and the partly is rolling please let us all know!
Some of us will be getting to Pune from far.
Thanks and love
Chetna
Book the tickets anyway Chetna..
My God after reading the above posts…i am also thinking to visit Pune not in October but in January.
Let a new circle of Love rain showers from our hearts and spring flowers of friendliness empower our being.
Osho and “Sannyas-central” at 17,Koregaon Park, Pune is a collective heritage of His people, we are all adults now, i hope the Patriarch recognises this fact and makes again space for all his people to participate coming from different income and education backgrounds. If someone is connected with Osho from heart and understand His vision; is already a royal soul.
Keerti and Atul must seeze this opportunity to bring forward the hand of friendliness. The hands which can win a landmark legal judgement in American courts must show their human and sannyas side, than it is not just Zorba the Buddha but warrior the mystics, from the world of Osho.
Chetna….what a joy to feel in your words the pouring out of Ma energy.
Shantam, it is love for Osho …it is Him….
I cannot express in words what I feel for the place where Osho has walked, has spoken, has smiled. I cry with every old video of Pune. It took me at least 40 min to walk in the first time I went there. Osho is still there!
What a joy it would be on that special day for all sannyasins to meet (old and new).
I would love the resort for that one day forget about the ban list, politics, who is right and wrong. And I would love all the guests to come as lovers, not for the fight , but for celebration. No judgement, no aggression, no cunnings no US.
One day where we will all meet just for OSHO!
I do not doubt my Master even a bit. We just have to get together, meditate and dance and the rest will be done by Osho’s energy and existence.
I feel that not accidently so many of us started feeling this urge to all meet in Pune. It is an existential will, it is not us.
I would admire Pune if they organise that day open for All Osho lovers and we (guests) in return should come with love, respect and help.
Shantam, I was also not planning to come to Pune in this trip to India, but I deeply feel in the heart we should all come. But we do need the cooperation from Pune.
Can somebody write them a letter?
I LoVe U All .. BIG HUG To OF US Who Have Dared To DreaM !
Chetna..I am copying some part of this post from you and pasting it in the latest thread without copyrights..
I forgive you, cheeky man
My love
Some People Laugh at the end of the Joke,
Some People Laugh in the middle of the joke, but
Swami Gurudayal Singh, is the only spice, who laughs at the start of the joke – OSHO
Such a Master – OSHO – came on this earth after millenium with the Will of Existence.
Dear Management at Pune, I send you this thread as Petition for all our brethern for a meeting on 19th January 2010 – Let’s command our mind and order “SHUT Up and GET READY TO DISSOLVE IN THE MASTER” with the energy of Sanyasins of East and West. We should be bold enough to command our Mind, our Soul should prove as Whetstone to test our mind, by just dropping ego.
Osho in His body, was a Hollow Bamboo, and was living with Spaceless, Thoughtless and egoless. He always remained One with the ultimate. Once in Lao Tse Hall, his discourse went for 3 hours and 20 minutes. I reached in 20 minutes ago and five minutes prior to that, went to toilet. My bladder was full, after 3 hours and 45 minutes, but I went on to sit with the Master because of His will.
He always lived at O-Zone level and beyond time.
Let us gather togather once again, the Call given by SHANTAM PREM seems to be the Will of Osho, and Shantam (Iqbal) is only a media for us, to embrace on 19th January, 2010.
Many more must be ready, like KRANTI, CHETANA, DILRUBA, GARIMO, ANTHONY, THOMPSON, AMRITO, PREM BUDHHA, DHAYANAM, AND SHANTAM PREM . Some has joined this thread, many are coming.
Please, Management at Pune, be compassionate and philanthropist, for good of our souls AND ADHERE TO MY PETITION. World needs it. Everywhere people are living with chaos. Some people want to be Enlightened by merging and melting with the energy of the Master at Pune, being PILGRIMAGE of Osho Sanyasin. YOUR COOPERATION WILL BE A GREAT CONTRIBUTION ON THIS PATH, FOR THE WELFARE OF THE HUMANITY.
MY LOVE FOR ALL AND TO THE MEMBERS OF MANAGEMENT.
YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Chinmayalove,
I see you have added my name to your plea, but I honesty do not feel the desperation that I sence from Kranti’s and your posts. For myself, I’m okay with there being a big party or no party. Different people seem to have different needs. I don’t see for myself having any needs met by a big party. I think it’s clearly posible that different people came to Osho to have different needs met, and found different reasons to trust what he spoke to them.
He left much advice for sannyasins, knowing that one day he’d be gone.
>>My approach to your growth is basically to make you independent of me. Any kind of dependence is a slavery, and the spiritual dependence is the worst slavery of all.
I have been making every effort to make you aware of your individuality, your freedom, your absolute capacity to grow without any help from anybody. Your growth is something intrinsic to your being. It does not come from outside; it is not an imposition, it is an unfolding.
Much more of the text can be found here.
http://www.oshoworld.com/biography/innercontent.asp?FileName=biography11/11-04-advice.txt
>>A mystery school comes into existence with a master,
and disappears.
And that’s how it should be.
In nature, in existence,
everything that is real….
A roseflower opens itself in the morning and
by the evening it is gone.
from my earliest memories, Osho was about…letting go.
This seems to be an unfoldment in many ways …. it is not just about a party … lam / we are partying anyways …. Yes a mystery school comes into existance with a Master .. and to me / many of us he is present .. maybe his body is no more but … he is present in many ways .. and this is part of our growth …that we are being able to dicuss / debate here .. we are all doing our own thing … in that sense we are not dependent on anyone … nor do l see myself playing any role in administration … lam in letgo .. this is part of my letgo .. l assure you Garimo this is not a need to Party but to create a fresh energy for all of us to go ahead … and Ksera Ksera
” Garimo this is not a need to Party but to create a fresh energy for all of us to go ahead ”
Exactly.. We are not desparate.. before Keerthi suggested we were discussing about only conflict related aspects.. Keerthi brought this celebration and we all picked up.. I feel there is difference between becoming desparate & feeling good about some celebration happening..
Like Dilruba said above ‘ to create a fresh energy for all of us ” not only to us ..That fresh energy will pull so many people who just started listening to Osho.. It will be a chain reaction..Expansion..
“but I honesty do not feel the desperation that I sence from Kranti’s and your posts.”
Nobody is desperate here, Garimo. Things are very simple!
It will be a special day for all sannyasins and by gathering together in joined love for Osho it will be simply beautiful nourishing and special. And in that party each INDIVIDUAL will merge into dance.
And common you have heard Osho saying “wherever my sannyasins will meet, my presence will be felt”. What else will the heart of the disciple want to feel if not HIS presence!
And I don’t have to explain why Pune would be the most beautiful place for all to meet.
A mystery school comes into existence with a master,
and disappears….
Garimo dear,
Are these words of Osho are spoken during last days last hours of His life!
Sometime selective approach is needed for one’s own growth, may be it has a collective value to remind us what are the dangers ahead.
When he mentions that He was preparing us for our independence, it is very true. Most of us can dare to take the challange of walking alone on the path, without any fear or greed….
His one of its kind dry cleaning shop can give us a frame to meet and share our individual notes, a room to cry and laugh and change clothes for further journey…A one of its kind mystery school.. the interferance in its working is a pure mind game..most of us can see, how few disciples have instead of upgrading the software have down graded it, though they have done a good job with the packing material.
Dear Garimo, may I ask you, if you are Garimo / Arup (Dutch)? The understanding I get from you, seems to be profound
The ultimate msg of Osho is Silence, Living with Awareness, of course, for the awakened one.
But from the chain of letters, it seems ante.
In fact, world depends upon inter-dependence which helps to lead an independent with individuality. Shantam and Garimo, you both seem to be close to the heart of Osho. Please send your strings to others, for the sake of spreading the message of our beloved Master – Osho, instead of clarifying each other at a cart speed. Osho speed proved beyond Concord and within a span of sixteen years, His message went around the globe with his individual efforts.
Love you both……..
Sorry guys,
I didn’t say anything about you. I was writing about me. I didn’t say YOU are desperate or defensive. I wrote about my senses and the feeling I pick up when I read what is written. My sensing happens inside of me. Something outside may have triggered it… But it’s about me… I can only know me… everything else is just what I imagine it to be.
I also do my best (but likely forget sometimes) to not write on behalf of all sannyasins thinking I know what’s best for them, as I want to respect the differences of individuals and understand that it is impossible for me to know their minds. I also know how I feel when I read others adding me to their lists or writing what ALL sannyasins need to do, think, or know… When I’m asked if I’m included, I feel considered and respected, otherwise I feel like I’m just being used to add some imaginary weight to some ones thoughts to give themselves more weight and meaning.
If I were to make a request it would be for us to remember to speak for ourselves as individuals and own what we say without trying to prop up what’s being said by using other people. If that were to happen, I’d feel fewer doubts and have greater trust.
>Garimo dear,
>Are these words of Osho are spoken during last days last hours of >His life!
just a little googeling and I learned this qoute is from talks that took place between aug. and oct. 1986 and are published as The Osho Upanishad.
” Garimo this is not a need to Party but to create a fresh energy for all of us to go ahead”
It’s not about all the others… It’s about you.
What is missing?
Chinmayalove,
The best / most that I’m able / willing to do is: now & then I toss one of my pebbles into the pond and just let the ripples go where they may. I have no control over messages spreading or not spreading, and I don’t think I could handle such a responsibility.
Everywhere around me I sense endless ripples coming in from others tossing pebbles, it’s almost all I can do just to keep a float.
Just if I’m responsible for myself, the world will be that much less burdened.
-g
>>Please send your strings to others, for the sake of spreading the message of our beloved Master – Osho,
Garimo ……. the l is interdepedent on us … it is difficult sometimes to distinguish .. but mostly lam speaking for myself … but in this case its for us all … lam conveying in the best possible way l can …
>>>Garimo ……. the l is interdepedent on us … it is difficult sometimes to distinguish ..
Dilrubalove,
I’m needing a little more clarity, you’re right it’s complicated and hard to distinguish.
As I understand the use of the word interdependent it’s something like: as individuals we can speak on our personal experience of our connectedness and interdependence. But even though being interdependent, the individual does not loose their independence and does not become able to experience what other individuals are experiencing. All experiencing remains within the individual.
I, me, my, mine, does not sometimes mean the same as “us” , “we” , “they”, “ours”…
Is this also your understanding?
-g
Garimo … l feel the ‘ my ‘ experiance is very narrow … in the sense … ofcoarse l percieve through my experiance … and my knowing / not knowing is through it … but the ‘ lam ‘ experiance
is boundless .. l feel deep down l came to the Master to experiance this … and after experiancing that … l feel in that experiance there is no ‘ me , my , mine ‘… in that experiance All are included … without disturbing the ‘ me ‘ …
Thank you Dilruba,
Yet, I don’t think I’m any closer to understanding what you meant by interdependence and how that allows speaking for “us all”.
But that’s okay, It’s very possible I should focus more on Chinmayas
thoughts that Osho’s ultimate message is Silence.
-g
this is the paradox the more l try to understand the more l am misssing the truth … this is my experiance … yes you are right silence is the message ..
until there is anything which needs to be responded …
garimo
You say ” I also do my best (but likely forget sometimes) to not write on behalf of all sannyasins thinking I know what’s best for them, ”
Very True…..But we are also not expressing very specific preferences on behalf of others.. In generall we feel everyone would like to celebrate and hug each other in Pune.. As fellow sannyasins.. Thats much we can say on behalf of other sannyasins.. Beyond that we can not speak for others..
” I, me, my, mine, does not sometimes mean the same as “us” , “we” , “they”, “ours”
Most of the time that ‘ I, me, my, mine, ‘ does not even mean ” I, me, my, mine,”.. By the time we get hold of a ‘ I or Me ‘ that ‘I or Me’ has changed.
Of late i have been listening a lot to Adyashanthi & Mooji..they take you so easily in to the ‘I Am’ ness..
As Dilruba says ” but the ‘ lam ‘ experiance
is boundless .. l feel deep down l came to the Master to experiance this ”
In that sense we all come to Master for the same reason and we all are totally the same..We just take different modes of tarvelling to the Master.. someone takes train , while others take a bus ride or a flight..Finally everything seems to end in that ‘I Am’ ness..after that there seems to be nowhere to go.. LIVE END..( Not DEAD End.. )
>>>.But we are also not expressing very specific preferences on behalf of others.. In generall we feel everyone would like to celebrate and hug each other in Pune.. As fellow sannyasins.. Thats much we can say on behalf of other sannyasins.. Beyond that we can not speak for others..
Who’s this “we”? Is it really difficult to speak for yourself, to say ‘I” and to be totally responsible?
You say “we are”… “we feel”… “we can”… “we can not”…
” Who’s this “we”? ”
I meant this particular group discussing whether ‘ we’ or ‘ I ‘ should / Can speak on behalf of all / other sannyasins..
” Is it really difficult to speak for yourself, to say ‘I” and to be totally responsible? “… let me absorb this.. I am not getting hold of this?
for you one link.. I post heer as ‘ Venk’ ..my legal name..I have learned / unlearned / lost a lot from these posts
http://nomaury.blogspot.com/2009/08/only-now-always-this.html
Al i see-me, mine, i am….bla bla bla….
OSHo
Garimo / Dilruba
Thank you for the above posts..This is where my current gowth is and i really enjoying these posts from you.. I have a humble request to you.. Please read the link i sent…Threads by Maury lee.. he is very compassionate and He has clarified / unclarified lot of things for me / no me…
Chetna … The ‘ME’ is just that .. “bla bla bla”… It is not anything else.. All the time it goes “bla bla bla”…
Garimo. Gud to read. That is the positive sign and positive spirit……..Luv
Hey Shantam Prem,
You live in west or in
une……..???
Wishing you gud luck in your mission and hope, we all white robe brothers shall meet on 19th January 2010.
Please talk to Neelam, Tathagat and others too, when the court has quashed the plea of rights etc. She must be a super soul, which made Osho, to assign the duties as Secretary, the well administrator, in the previous Inner Circle of Pune.
OSHO………….OSHO…………..OSHO……………OSHO
Yahooooo
Garimo,
Few posts above, Andreas was asking whether you are the Dutch Garimo (Arup)?
The way i know people in Pune, it will be no surprise to see Angelina Jolie on a street tea stall somewhere but to see the ashram celebrities here at sannyasnews…?
So my presumption is that Amrito here is not Amrito (Dr.) and Garimo is not Garimo(Anup).
Chinmaya has written-
Please talk to Neelam, Tathagat and others too, when the court has quashed the plea of rights etc. She must be a super soul, which made Osho, to assign the duties as Secretary..
I really don’t know what to write for such things, it creates sadness to think just because someone was secretary, Doctor, compo under, Gardner, cook washerwomen,driver of Osho, they must be super souls because of this.
Somehow that was the beauty to live in Pune in an open organisation, one can see each other without makeup.
People who read the history, think those must be great souls, who asked question to Osho…whose name was uttered by Osho etc.
Not for a single time Osho has given the hint that ABC is special because he is serving me in this and that capacity. As i feel, if you don’t want to read history be a part of it. otherwise the stories weaven by the people look more romantic than they really were.
The inner circle is an administrative body and its members are neither better or worse than us. They are suppose to maintain the daily routine like the Traffic police but few of them have started thinking that they can change the traffic rules too. That is the point of contention.
I love Osho, one of the reason is he changed the rules of the game. In His game, a man without shoes can also win the race, one does not need to have the branded shoes and some bank as a sponser or to represent a certain country or culture.
Just realised, why we the people are pleading to the ashram authorities to allow the celebration on 19th January.
Question is under what authority they st oped the celebrations.
valentine day or Xmas or some Osho days have nothing to do with TRUTH, the last product we can have in existence but Osho has arranged these few celebrations himself as a tool or what so ever, and i think only His successor would have got the right to impose further changes.
People who feel the futility of these tools have their freedom to go beyond them but in the world of Osho it is happening like a cartoon , where the doctor tells to patient, “sorry you don’t need any treatment, you are fine.. Look.. i have just controlled my pulse and blood pressure!”
shantam prem wrote:
>>>>Garimo,
Few posts above, Andreas was asking whether you are the Dutch Garimo (Arup)?
Oh, I seem to have missed seeing Andreas’s question. But even before that I had been asked:
>>>Are you the German Garimo from the Darshan diaries by the way?
and I replied:
>>nope, I’m not famous or very infamous.
But she did get my mail a few times at rajnesshpuram…
Ha! Thank you Andreas… But I’m not responsible for your perception
Dear Shantam Prem
I wish everyday should be 19th January, while we are in the Ashram in Pune. You look very nice, sober and meditative.
Luv
Chinmaya Sw … u seem to have missed the point … its not about ”quashed the plea …. inner circle of Pune ” l suggest you read Shantam’s ” Appeal to Neelam & Jayesh ” & Kirti ‘s ”Press Release ” … in case you havent … so you will get the point .. Dilruba
Chinmaya..Shatam is not all sober.. he is totally drunk..
Drunk with Osho…Ofcourse
How old are you Garimo? Not as old as Andreas and Anthony. P.H.D I suppose..
Garimo,
It is really a joy to know that you have the first hand experience of Rajneeshpuram, May be you were part of Pune one and Pune two too.
I am also sure, that what you see, perceive, feel and express must been influenced by your days in these places.
In this phase of life, whether you live single or with a partner..i am curious to know, how much experience of those days; the human frictions, conflicts, freindships and attractions with meditation etc. you will recommend for the generation connecting with Osho after His physical departure.?
You may not need to have the Sangha(commune)..but what is your experience, the relevance..
There is no need that it fits with my understanding..my perception…just your experience,,,, and your legacy.
When Sangham and Dhamam Sharnam Gacchamis can happen centuries after Buddha; won’t it be appropriate to have the same with Osho!
Shantam Premlove,
Although it scares me a bit to expose the personal things about myself and my activities in public online forums, I’ll think about how I can carefully answer your questions and preserve my need to protect myself and feel safe at the the same time. But I’ll have to do that over the next few days. In a couple hours, I drive to a near by city to promote my products at a four day trade show. For the past two & a half years, I have been making and marketing organic soap… I love the story of Mojud. These days I’m a hermit soap merchant. http://www.mojud.com/ Spending time in my studio workshop and then going to market. When I lived/worked in a center some days/years ago I remember I would enjoying listening to Oshos commentary of Mojud… over and over and over… It’s called the Whispering Sands.
-g
Krantilove,
we went to all the local trails. Also took that class several times. then stopped taking classes.
>>How old are you Garimo?
52
>>Not as old as Andreas and Anthony.
I do not know?
>>P.H.D I suppose..
no formal education. did not complete grade 12 of high school. in 1991 took a placement test and enrolled in a local community college. Took some english writing classes… math classes, but mostly photograpy classes… really I took all the photogrphy offered several times, and I took hiking classes
-g
Garimo
Me and andreas never agree on anything in this forum.. But finally i agree on one thing which andreas said about you ..
” The understanding I get from you, seems to be profound ”
I really like your posts Garimo.. someday we will meet and hug in Pune..
Zen story of our time:
Master could feel that His time has come to leave this shore for the eternity.As it was done always, he calls His main disciples for the last minute sharing.
Disicples could feel a new kind of serenity on Master’s face. Master looks at them with adoring eyes and whispers, ” I leave you my Dream.” and drifts apart like a wood stock in the ocean.
To see this, disciples start sobbing. Master opens His eyes again and says mischievously,” And don’t forget to change the marble in my room and also the air conditioner. It was too loud like the chattering mind.”
This has not happened thousands of years ago…. It is a Zen story of our time and disciples are wondering from than on, whether the Master has entrusted His dream to the two main disciples present at the death bed or it was for all of them!
Yes Shantam … first of all for me … then it is for All of Us … which includes the two who were physically present … and this Zen story is a living Story !
Hi Shantam.. What is this Zen Story? Is it your creation? The way you put it is amazing…creative juices flowing
When you said’ Master could feel that His time has come to leave this shore for the eternity ” .. i thought about Osho and felt like tears coming out..
20 years later tears are still in my eyes.
As it is said in the literature, story is based on true facts.
Keeping in mind the status of the great 2, 5 or 20 disciples,many of us will be almost like illegitimate children of the late father…but that is the punch line of human history,,many times donkeys prove better than the horses!
I wonder when His people in power will realise that master is a master is a master, he is not one of the 1.5 million teachers in more than 7800 universities in the world.
People are free to believe Osho as a Acharya (The teacher) Rajneesh, they can even call Him Rasputin of our time, but at least His people owe to His memory to treat Him, His work and each other with immense love and respect.
“….at least His people owe to His memory to treat Him, His work and each other with immense love and respect.”
Thats what is required.. It was the case to startwith..But it seems no more the case..
While posting all these messages here i always ask myself whether i am making big judgements about people or my personal bias is refelected in my views and as Prem Buddha said what authority i have… I dont have answers..I have love in my heart for my master .& .I have tears in my eyes.. I feel that is enough for me to say something..
..
..
“owe”… “required”…
Yuck.
Where’d my freedom go?
Sorry Garimo.. I didnt get what you are trying to say..
Go on saying Kranti, Tears in your eyes and love in your heart, is being received by your fellow sanyasins. Osho is playing the nice role, invisibly through your thoughts, with others too, who are in this thread teaching each other.
Love
where from this Shantam come out with nice and new anecdotes informative and knowledge with full of love and seems to be a drunkard of Osho. It seems he spent his whole life with Osho. I want to say him Acharya Shantam.
Love
REUNION
Come fly among the hazy clouds
Lightly waltz upon the stars
Tell me what you dream at night,
And I shall make it yours…
Magic is what I’m about,
With you all I’ll share
Leave behind the lonely fears
Let me dry your tears.
Slip inside the spell I weave
To feel the tingle of my touch
Feel the soft caress of my love,
Which yearns for you so much…
For I am more than maiden…
Warrior…healer…soul divine
Depart the gloom of heartache past,
Cast away the sadness from your mind.
For I asked the Old Ones,
To reunite us once again…
Carrying my whispers to you
On eagle wings in stormy winds.
Shattering the walls of time
To complete what we’d begun
Leave behind our shackles,
Drift high above the glittering sun.
There really is no hurry…
It will come to pass for sure
May love be strong and steady…
A chalice cup to pour
Part your lips and swallow deep
So then it shall be yours…
http://lionesszen.com
Thank you Kat for sharing a wonderful poem.
I wish to request you to post your inner thoughts through poem or prose in the latest threads. People can enjoy this fresh, as once in a while, like me just now, pass through the old streets for nostalgia.
silence is golden