WHAT HAPPENS AFTER SANNYAS? (REPRISE)
As a few of you may remember, ‘What happens after sannyas?’ was the title of an epic, two-year, thread which I cultivated on the old SN chatboard.
Here comes my much briefer reprise, one which, in all its brevity and simplicity, brings clarity, for me, to agitating questions such as:
What is a master, a disciple?
Why are some disciples banned?
What is enlightenment?
First though, two quotes, as best remembered by me, from Osho… and one anecdote.
The quotes:
(A) in answer to a sceptical would-be sannyasin, complaining that sannyas is ‘ another game’, Osho replied something like: ‘It is indeed a game, the last one you will play, so play it well.’
(B) ‘The master takes away from you that which you don’t have, and gives you that which you already have.’
The anecdote:
I was banned from all UK centres in about 1986 (at a time when I was not really finished with sannyas), for not wearing my mala, and refusing to give it back.
Although at the time I found that banning crass and hurtful, there was value in that banning. One rule of the game is after all totality. So, if I was not totally in the game, let me be totally out.
Here was a lesson, which, once learnt, I used well again later, this time applied by myself to myself; see below.
Now….. Let me rephrase my starting question in more detailed fashion, and then answer it IN BLOCK CAPITALS, and follow that by a step by step commentary from my own life.
What happens after sannyas, supposing that
(a) no other new master is taken,
and
(b) there has been no cheating?
(1) THE MASTER’S WORK IS COMPLETED
(2) ONE LEAVES THE MASTER
(3) ONE GROWS INTO FULL UNIQUENESS
(4) THE SEARCH FINISHES
(5) ONE IS ‘ENLIGHTENED’.
(a) I had no other master after Osho. I met many of those who shifted into the vacuum left by Osho, but took none seriously.
(b) I did not cheat.
So then
(1) THE MASTER’S WORK IS COMPLETED.
It is the disciple who completes it. The master gives sannyas to the sleeping disciple, it is the kind of progressive dream he/she needs; but, upon waking, the disciple sees the sannyas ‘game’, like all other ‘games’ (ie mental constructs) as no longer satisfactory, as unreal. So the disciple lets them fall, seeing them now as things which he/she does not, cannot, REALLY have.
There lies the purpose of that epic thread of mine, and the life changes I was going through as I wrote it. I had played the sannyas game a long time, I had acquired baggage, the sannyasin mindset.
I deconstructed. I discarded everything that could be discarded, and looked to see what is left, what is essential, what can not be discarded: that which I always had, but which the master nevertheless ‘gave’ me.
One rule of the game is totality, so I did that deconstruction totally. It took me some time.
(2) ONE LEAVES THE MASTER
The game is over. Freedom is supreme.
(3) ONE GROWS INTO FULL UNIQUENESS,
it is an aloneness which could not be endured before, now it can.
(4) THE SEARCH FINISHES
(5) ONE IS ‘ENLIGHTENED’.
In that absolute fulfillment, search becomes irrelevant.
And yet the game of sannyas was not pointless. It was after all a love affair, and love is never wasted.
So, if the game is completed, and was not pointless, one has reached/found the point of it, which, as the master has said, is enlightenment.
One is ‘enlightened’.
Note well the quotation marks around that last word. The master tells the disciple, has always told the disciple, that he/she is enlightened.
But that is the master’s word.
Now I am unique. Now I must find my own word, or words, or my own new variants of old words.
In the new context which I have created post-sannyas, I never use the word ‘enlightened’.
But, revisiting that sannyas context, I will say:
I am ‘enlightened’.
Phoenix, Accra, Ghana
Phew… For an enlightened one that is quite a mind trip. The purpose of a game is to play. The game might simply be over for one reason or another…tea break. Maybe play some more later etc. This whole completion number goes back to the last post. The idea of attaining enlightenment and then that is it forever…job done…completed…gimme a break. Sounds static as opposed to ecstatic. Once more the goal-orientated mind comes in with the golden carrot of the ultimate goal to be had…even already having been informed it can’t be had. You’ve been had is about the extent of it.
Way back I once attended a great Osho discourse in Poona One. I can’t be arsed looking for it but the old man told a story I’ve never forgotten. It was about some guy whose time with a Zen master was almost over. The master sent the bloke down to the local pub to watch the barkeeper, who was enlightened in his own right. So mister almost enlightened goes down the boozer to check this geezer out and all the barkeeper does all day is dust shelves and clean glasses. New kid on the block heads back to the Zen master and gives his report…as in what the fuck was that all about? Zen master tells him that the point of visiting the pub was to illustrate that enlightenment is not an end game…life goes on and the shelves gather dust…bit like Phoenix down in Accra, now that I come to think about it. How does that old Queen song go?….another one bites the dust.
Not being here with phoenix…
Whaddya know? Phoenix beat the odds by a process of skewed logic, or is it a wind-up?
Let’s call it math debate, 1+1=2, 2+2=4, 4+4= erm…7?,
and he has arrived at a formula, E= MP2.
Enlightenment = mental x phoenix squared.
Elementary my dear Watson.
Watch out for the midday sun and malaria in ghana,
they can make you delirious.
A phoenix is born out of ashes. Where are the ashes? You need to burn some more. What you write is all head stuff. Back to the drawing board.
Basically, what happens after sannyas… is you stop bothering with sannyas news…
That’s 98+1 confirmed illuminatis from the sannyas stable.
One more for a century. Anyone?
What’s the intention of society to hush up that our so called enlightenment is not a holy teaching or goal, but indeed rebellion against tyranny!?
What happens after Sannyas?
Almost like what happens after the holidays.
Everybody has its own sotry.
Few people go for holidays and get settled there too.
I would say its more like an affair that starts with an exciting honey moon and when the hormone levels drop, it just continues to exist and follow you like a shadow.
Ah yes, Newman, the shadow indeed. An astute perception on your part. That is, if you are refering to the shadow that is an aggregate of myths, messages, and beliefs that keep us separated from our sense of wholeness and innate worth. Robert Bly calls this a “long bag we drag behind us.” If it remains hidden it can become the source of painful neurotic symptoms, obsessions, phobias, and anxieties. I must admit that I am a little surprised that you bring this up in relation to Phoenx’s comment.What would life be without surprises jumping out of the…er…shadows?
Lokesh, Its easy to get lost in the words. I used the word shadow to represent the process that keeps going in us. At least I know the beginning of it because I was responsible for it. But I do not know where it leads to ultimately. Yes, there were moments where I experienced some neurotic symptoms etc. probably symptoms of the three great fears like Veeresh says. ( fear of death, fear of going crazy and fear of orgasm). In those moments I wish I am in a commune with other friends.
For the first time in my life, I happened to go to a Sikh gurudwara this weekend. On one side there was melodious singing of Guru Nanak verses and on the other side there is a huge kitchen. Group of women joyously making rotis, few people taking care of dishes, few people serving food. My god I never had a roti and sabji like that in my life ( that too for free), it was so tasty food. I see love is lively there. One of the Nanak verses they are singing says ” Journey becomes easy with meditation (japa) and discipline (tapa) hand in hand. And I was told there is no priestly class in Sikhism.
Brings back memories of a free meal at the Golden Temple back in 69. Those were the days. Nanak was quite a guy. Family man who was not afraid of getting his hands dirty in the fields. Something Parmartha can surely relate to. Me? Off to chop firewood.
Waheguru.
As a free meal hippie pit-stop, a Gurudwara is right up there. You won’t get sick with sikhism.
5* rating in, “The ‘free’ spirits guide to planet earth.”
It emerged as an alternative in the north of india, to a violent and oppressive islam. No change there then.
Guru Sahib emphasized strongly on having a moral character (not looking at other women with bad intentions), earning truthful living (not looting the public)…
What went wrong? (Not mentioning any names naturally)
Bodhi Vartan
You are right. If one is no longer a sannyasin, one probably stays off SN.
Precisely for that reason did I write this. I happened some months back to offer to Parmartha something I first wrote on facebook, and since then I have been back a few times, but I often feel a iititle uncomfortable here, as I sense myself as a stranger, because no longer a sannyasin.
So I wrote the above to close a certain door clearly, visibly to myself and perhaps to others…
Sometimes when one slams a door another blows open, that may happen of course.
I expressed myself very mentally, true. I do not reject that description. I would remind you though that you hardly know me – how can you, so there is no blame in that. But perhaps use these mental words as an opening to something bigger?
‘Head stuff’ you say. That reminds me of the sannyas mindset which I report having thrown away…
>> ‘Head stuff’ you say. That reminds me of the sannyas mindset which I report having thrown away…
I was just provoking you. It looks like you threw the baby away with the bathwater tho.
>> I often feel a iititle uncomfortable here, as I sense myself as a stranger, because no longer a sannyasin.
If you were a sannyasin then you would know that sannyasins don’t mind non-sannyasins or ex-sannyasins. It’s the other sannyasins that are game.
Lokesh
I never said everything is completed. I just said that the sannyas game is over, and that there is enlightenment (though that is not exactly my word).
So I agree with you.
One of ny favourite Osho book titles was always ‘Beyond Enlightenment’.
I’m curious to know what line you crossed that dictated you are no longer a sannyasin. Met a couple of sannyasins this mornig. One of them was rattling on about a Budha Field. Find that sort of thing strange to relate to. Fields full of almond blossoms…now there’s a sight.
One unmentioned influence here is Nisargdatta’s ‘I am That’. Many questioners asked Nisargdatta , how he ‘attained’. He often answered something like:
‘My master told me ‘you are That’. As I saw no reason to disbelieve him, I trusted him, and started aligning myself with his words, and very swiftly they all came true.’
When I first read that in the book, I was amazed. Now I am not.
So yes, Dominic, as easy as 1+1=2.
Is it a wind-up, you ask. I like the question.
A cosmic true joke? Accepted?
Sounds good.
Next level, level 2 (ladies lingerie)
No ‘I’, no ‘That’, just pure am-nesty.
Q: How many people with Alzheimer’s does it take to change a light bulb?
A: To get to the other side.
Lokesh again
to clarify…
I spoke of absolute fulfilment. I didn’t say it lasted forever. Nor did i say it disappointingly went away. It is there if i want it.
Certainlly a certain ‘search’ stopped.
Being ‘That’, or ‘enlightened’, one is more in the difficult business of creating than searching. Difficult, but ongoing fun!
Ok, this is interesting, shantam was enjoying the Christian church before Christmas and Anand Newman is becoming part of Sikhs. It’s almost meditative ecumenical, but between all religions and meditation cults. There is no osho written in the sky. We sanyasins are no better than others, people just want to give some cultural or other their ego serving context to it. Finally. ordinary.
Aah… Welcome home!
One day advanced neurotech is going to invent an Enlightenmentometer,
With a ring tone that goes “liar, liar, pants on fire.”
Boy, are we going to see some beetroot-coloured faces!
No disrespect Pheonix but aren’t we all still playing the ‘sannyas game’ on this website?
Can I play? What is “the sannyas game” in your book?
Do you receive rupees or pounds when you pass neither this nor that?
bruce,
for that reason I, having dipped back in, felt a little uncomfortable… Hence this new offering, intended to remove unclarity.
b v…
Baby? Bathwater? What?
I didn’t say others made me feel unwelcome. I just felt since I came back last Autumn that I couldn’t join in that well, and that was the way it had to be and would stay. And it seemed to me that that discomfort was telling me something important, and should be looked into.
In my sannyas days i also felt like that half the time… But the other half of the time sannyas was the home, the family i had always wanted, and which I loved so much.
Very good question Lokesh, thanks, it may take me some time to answer it fully, so enjoy your almond blossom in the meanwhile.
But I will start to answer now.
What line did I cross?
The first answer that comes to mind is this:
in my sannyasin days, I was always tossing between love and rejection. I loved sannyas – meaning Osho, my fellow sannyasins, the places – so so much. Yet it was at the same time somehow foreign, not quite mine. So I rejected, or got rejected.
Now, none of that. I am amazed now to come here and see sannyasins doubting, questioning, Osho. Nothing like that in me any more. I accept Osho totally, so totally that the word accept is almost wrong, l let him be. I accept my sannyas years totally. I cannot really write a word against Him or them, cannot say anything demeaning Him or them.
But to get to that peace, I had to be outside again.
Accepting myself totally, I must stand alone. Then there can be, for me, no master.
In other words, in my sannyas days, the advantages of playing the game outweighed the game-implied assumed identity that was unavoidable.
The day the balance tipped, I was crossing the line. It was not however a one-day thing.
Put another way, there was a time when my love grew best within a nursery. But the day came when it grew best exposed. (Gardeners know that, don’t they?)
i am very glad to have written this, as a reminder of something very simple and subtle, but significant.
I thank SN for giving me this space, and everyone who commented, I take all comments as deeply supportive.
Cool, man.
I had a ten year unconscious hiatus from sannyas. I agree with you phoenix, that it can look pretty odd from the outside. Actually, it is pretty odd from the inside too. I suppose it beats trainspotting…
I remember osho saying something like that nobody would go for meditation if they knew how hard the journey is. I often think perhaps all this love, guruship etc. is there just to keep people moving on the way. And really if you look at the ocean or sky, there is nothing, nothingness seem to be quite cold. But phoenix, you are so sweet, very touching sharing. Thank you and big, big, long hug.
What Osho actually said was that meditation is forever, but he couldn’t say it, because nobody would be prepared to start on a venture without end.
Keep well.
I always thought meditation made life easier, if I could find the will to do it, and perhaps a little more warm and toasty on the inside.
Buddhist meditation and advaita could be cold, with it’s emphasis on the ‘void’ and ‘emptiness’, whereas osho’s techniques helped to restore an energetic and bodily ‘elan vital.’
As for forever, I’m thinking 20-30 more years if I’m lucky, then you merge into meditation, or just ‘lights out’. Whichever way you want to look at it.
Anyway within 1-2 billion years, life will become uninhabitable on earth, because of new super-improved, extra-hot, global warming.
It’s not that long to wait really.
For Fresch 4/2/2014.@4.24. P.M.
[A sannyasin says: I never thought that I was afraid of anything, but at home when I was meditating, I just couldn’t do it. I tried again and again and I failed three times.]
Fear is there with everybody, but ordinarily we live just on the surface of the mind and have repressed the fear deep down. If it is there on the surface one will not be able to function well, so one has forced this deep down. When you move in meditation you move deep, and then the fear which is suppressed, is stirred. It comes up, surfaces. Many more things that you have suppressed and of which you have become completely oblivious will all surface.
It is as if a house has remained uncleaned for many years. Nobody has moved and the dust has settled and gathered – layers of dust. Then you go in and just by your movement the dust is stirred.
Otherwise everything is okay. If nobody moves, everything seems to be silent; there is no dust. Nothing.
Meditation is a movement into the unconscious, and the dust of this life and the dust of many lives is there, piled up, layer upon layer. So everything will come up but don’t be worried, and don’t brood on it. Accept it – it’s good… a good indication that you are moving in.
It is as if you are swimming just on the surface and everything is good. Then you dive deep and suddenly at the bottom, fear arises, and you want to come back again to the surface.
It is exactly the same with meditation. It is going into your unconscious… diving deep. One feels suffocated, perspiring, and then suddenly a trembling and you are back. That’s why you tried that day again and again and you could not get it, because once you are afraid, it is difficult
These problems will come. Just go on reading my books and listening to my tapes, because I am talking about all these problems to everybody. Sometimes your problem will be there and it will be
solved, and you will feel okay, mm? Good.
Osho.
Get out of Your Own Way.
Chapter 11.
Fresch, actually would have liked to inbox this following message to you , (anyway) ” feel like bowing to you for this sharing ” ~ Kavita .
The emotion of devotion.
Who doesn’t love the feminine energy, all hugging and bowing and appreciations, while the boys slug it out? I could almost watch an episode of ‘friends’ right now.
A wobbly wheel will not get far, a perfectly centred one will.
Similarly, the endless journey only scares those not totally rooted in themselves.
Be totally rooted. Stay totally rooted.
To do that, accept everything. Then nothing throws you.
Did anyone before me invent the parable of the wobbly wheel? I hope not, so I can be the first.
Someone did say something similar though: the Great Way is not difficult for him who has no prefreences.
Fresch, thank you so much for the hug and the heart-warming words.
How about “the squeaky wheel gets the grease”, so that if something feels ‘off’, it’s a call to go inside.
I never liked these Übermensch admonitions of being ‘perfectly centred’ ‘totally rooted’, ‘accepting everything’, ‘not having preferences’ or not being scared.
Another way of creating false ideals and invulnerable spiritual superheroes that never existed.
Osho and others filled our heads with their tales of ‘perfect’ zen and sufi masters. They are teaching stories but not real people.
Nisargadatta, a guru’s guru, who you mentioned earlier, was heavily addicted and smoked himself to death,
though you are unlikely to find a chapter in his books, called ‘I am Bidi’, as a pointer to reality.
Life is messy, imperfect, fear comes, you succeed, you fail, you wobble… and so it goes on. All wobbly wheels.
Where is this perfectly centred wheel going anyway?
I think there’s been a lot of confusion created by the term ‘perfect consciousness’, an inner state, being taken to necessarily imply so-called ‘perfect’ conduct, infallibility, omniscience and so on, ie the image of a comic book ‘superhero’ (or a mythical, ‘god-like’ individual) that you rightly denigrate, Dominic.
A lot of the blame probably lies in our Christian conditioning, images of ‘the perfect Jesus’, ‘the Blessed Virgin Mary’ etc. Impossible ideals, as you say.
Yet many masters/teachers/gurus also often refer to themselves as “ordinary” people. Perhaps it’s largely the priests with their rather less than altruistic agendas who are responsible for this ‘perfect’ aberration.
Aided and abetted by any predilection we might have for such flawless ‘icons’.
So many sannyassins, ex-anti sannyassins appear to evaluate Osho and Oshos work, sannyas, sannyassins, against an idea of perfection, a fixed single point, and I suggest Osho isn’t working with people to make them perfect, to get everyone to a single fixed place, (That is essentially a Christian notion.) hes working with people to achieve optimum growth, movement.
So the fixed idea, the notion of perfection says he failed because Vivek committed suicide, but maybe Vivek had a thousand times more of a life than she wold have, if she hadn’t met Osho.
Maybe that individual who everyone perceives as the village idiot, is a thousand times more evolved than he would have been if he hadn’t spent that time at the Ashram.
(Notes I made a few weeks ago, but didn’t get round to developing. )
Great post, Arpana.
According to Osho the journey is from here to here so no wheels are needed, squeaky, wobbly, or straight. A nice comfy chair might come in useful.
Accept everything? That is a good one. I have never met anyone who accepts everything. I think it is a piece of nonsense, that only dummies could believe in. I asked a friend the other day, what is enlightenment? He replied, total acceptance.
If you consider it how can you accept it? Total accceptance is big in India. When that acceptance results in a nightmare a standard reply might me, better life next time. I simply cannot accept that.
‘E’ Fascism…
>> Accept everything
Didn’t we used to say “Don’t judge”?*
“Don’t judge” makes it easier to live with, and pass on. By judging, you create separation and the possibility of stress.
*The proper term is ‘suspension of judgement’ but proper terms don’t have the same impact.
Someone who does not judge is liable to have no values, except nonjudgmental ones. There are instances in life where there is a need to make a judgment. The problem arises when judgments are made that are not needed. Osho was extremely judgmental at times. Excuse me, I have to go….Mother Theresa ia on the astro phone.
dear body vartan
i very much appreciated the honesty of your post ( 4.2.2014 at4.24 pm)
(ED: MADHU, THE POST OF THAT TIME WAS FROM FRESCH!)
and what you wrote -
how i feel it -
then and there said a lot too about some of the collective climate in chat rooms like this too – and then we all are meant – contributing the one or the other way.
as well as “on-looking-contributers”
what made it possible to now approach you though came up in me by your second posting hours later (at11.02 pm)
and your insight as your good wishes to others (as well as to yourself)
and thank you for THIS
madhu
Let me answer that question of ‘crossing the line’ another way again.
Taking the name ‘Satgit’, I joined a commune remarkable for its imbalance. There were the many (generally considered unenlightened) and the one (proclaimed enlightened). That imbalance tended to reinforce the conception of enlightenment as a rare accomplishment.
I joined, I mostly took on board that imbalance, occasionally I rebelled against it.
But over time that imbalance came to seem no longer in service of the good.
So what was I to do?
I could dethrone Osho, following Sheela with her complaint that Osho was selling moonshine (and sometimes I did). In the end though that was not in my heart. It would have been destructive denial.
And yet the imbalance no longer gels with me…
So the same logic, the ‘quirky’ kind that some of you have noticed, kicks in.
I correct the imbalance by walking over to the other side.
It is logic. It is more than logic. It is no longer allowing the ego to obstruct natural law. It is the same as ‘nature abhorring a vacuum’. It is honouring the master.
In a previous post, Lokesh mentioned the story of Siddhartha, the little boy at the ashram, who osho declared enlightened.
I came across this reference to him in gita mehta’s witty travelogue through post 60′s india, ‘Karma Cola’.
“In the ashram the guru was known to be God. Some of the ashram inmates were aspiring to become God. One of them, a chubby five-year-old Helvetian, had been born God. The devotees were very proud of him.
“God calls him the Buddha,” they announced. “He’s a very high soul.”
A ragged blond urchin was meandering down the path with a gang of fellow urchins of diverse nationalities. They seemed, in the way of children, to be preoccupied with picking up bits of string and other garbage lying on the road and stuffing these into their pockets. At one point the whole troupe came to a halt, and a fierce fight ensued over possession of a discarded bicycle tire.
I tried to see as well as look at the little Master ambling toward us while an ecstatic acolyte told his story.
“He wasn’t born here, you know. He comes from Switzerland. When he was a two-year-old baby in Zurich he saw a photograph of God, and fell on his face in front of it. He told his father, ‘You’re not my Daddy. The man in that picture is my Daddy.’ He kept asking to go to his Daddy, until his parents brought him right here. To Poona. We were there when he had his first darshan with God. He flung himself at God’s feet shouting, ‘Daddy! Daddy!’ It was so moving. We all felt really humble to be present.”
A faint wave of nausea passed over me. A touch of the sun, I thought, and forced myself to concentrate.
“Well, God looked down at him and smiled. You could feel the high energy passing through them. He put his hands on the boy’s shoulders and said softly, ‘Welcome Enlightened One.’ Then he announced, ‘The Buddha has come. This child is Siddhartha.’ ”
The Buddha and his pals were now among us, clamoring for sweets. Formal introductions were made between the Buddha and myself.
“Where have you come from?” the Buddha asked me.
“Bombay,” I replied.
“Can you buy me some guns and soldiers when you go back?” eagerly requested the Enlightened Master.
I began to laugh uncontrollably. So did the others. When we had calmed down they turned to me and asked,
“Isn’t that just beautiful?”
You can’t always count on your sense of the ridiculous when everyone around you is laughing, too.”
Yes, I have read that book. It did not leave much of an impression.
Yeah, it was one of those books where the title was better than the book.
That’s Karma for you.
And Cola-teral damage.
I’m half way through, and yes it’s light, frothy and nostalgic. Still I like her humour and writing style.
“Can you buy me some guns and soldiers when you go back?” eagerly requested the Enlightened Master.
That kind of line is bound to appeal to me isn’t it? A guilty pleasure then.
Total accceptance is big in India…
From where you got this idea; lokesh
I think Total Acceptance was promoted by the men who wanted the girls to try something “New”.
May be this concept of total acceptance was grown in the opium fields!
If people were not programmed with a sense of deep acceptance in India there would have been a violent revolution in that country in recent times. Look how long it took them to free the country of the exploitative yoke of colonialism imposed by he British Raj. Now you have billionaires building palatial residences bordering slums.
I do not have words Kavita..but you know..
I must say to some of you, that i really do not buy your entire graph. Like Lokesh, you were writing words do not count, but only the energetic phenomenon with osho.. for you from all the people here..by now you know it’s not true..but you never admitted it. Shame on you.
Also dom, why do i get the feeling that you kind of enjoy tickling and irritating people – for fun of it.
I have seen it so many times that many of my own writings (if not all) have had to do with me. Surprise, surprise. However, sharing is just so valuable, somebody wrote it here (Arpana?..), many things change after telling them your self and then listening or reading others about it.
You see Phoenix, there is sanyas life after sanyas; you are bringing the feeling in discussion at Sanyas News.
I am feeling very happy right now in this strange mob of SN.
I suggest reading back, out loud, what you write sometimes, to help convey your meaning.
“Also dom, why do i get the feeling that you kind of enjoy tickling and irritating people – for fun of it.”.
I don’t know, it’s a mystery. Just a bit of ‘slap and tickle’ I suppose.
Where are you from? Is it germany?
This part of your online persona, Dominic, seems to amount to ‘getting your retaliation in first’, which is a common enough trait developed by people who’ve suffered from some sort of undue pressure, eg ‘bullying’, in early life.
In other words, based upon an underlying fear of being ‘defeated’ and hence ‘humiliated’. Which probably also explains your reluctance to answer my questions.
Does any of that ‘ring a bell’? (‘Seconds out, Round 10′, perhaps?!).
As I’ve already said, whatever may or may not be true or false in your general perspective on ‘matters spiritual’, I don’t really trust where you’re coming from, it’s too obviously ‘polluted’ by what seems to amount to deep-seated personal unhappiness, on the surface well covered (although, on deeper inspection, actually pretty transparent) by general ‘clever-dickery’.
It’s really not that difficult to see through, especially as I myself have shared and still own, now to a hopefully lesser degree, certain characteristics of yours, eg lengthy experience of chronic unhappiness/unfulfilment, resentment, cynicism etc. etc.
Some of us at times need a master/teacher/guru less than a true friend we can learn to simply ‘be our selves’ with, even if that involves paying for a therapist who’s in it for the vocation, out of love, not for the money.
I recall you found Glyn Seaborn-Jones impressive. There are others….
SD, I am not jumping on Dom’s corner but why do you think he wants to be be different, or analysed?
Can’t you accept him as he is?
In general I enjoy Dom’s comments. He has a well-developed sense of humour. I see that as a prerequisite on SN. The people who take themselves seriously on this site appear like sad clowns in a circus. If I catch myself writing something serious in a comment I immediately scrap it. What’s that, Mother Theresa?….You have a complaint? Perhaps you should direct that to whoever it is in charge.
This is one of the most pompous, self righteous, serious comments anyone has ever posted here, from the man who takes himself more seriously than Dominic or Shantam.
And smug.
Sure, Dominic has a sense of humour, he also has a certain literary talent, he can be very entertaining.
But my point is he’s often enough using all that as a sort of smokescreen that hides where he’s really coming from. There’s a lot of grief there (anger/pain) masquerading as humour, which I say drives and distorts his particular agenda.
(PS: Er, does he take sugar?!)
And you, Lokesh, who I also enjoy reading, can be extremely serious at times, you’re not just ‘the joker in the pack’, not at all.
Well, SD, a wee bit of analysis is in order now and then. Look at some of the shit I address to Shantypants. You, for instance, appear to have a wee obssesion running with Dom. Who cares? Not I. Storm in a typhoon tea cup. I’m sure enjoyment is your primary drive for posting here. Me, Extremely serious, but how could you possibly know that? How do we know, for instance, that Shantypants is not playing wind up with some of the stupid shite he writes. We don’t. There is always a joker in the SN pack. I posted a comment the other day addressed to someone, loaded with more irony than a tanker full of Irn Bru and the recipient simply did not get it. He thought I was serious. For fuck’s sake. It’s unbelievable but true.
And why do you think I or anyone else here should necessarily accept anything anyone writes at face value?
Do you think we’re a load of naïve idiots, here to be taken in by others’ ‘self’-serving rubbish?
Ultimately, doing so does no favours to either party.
‘I am That’ is perhaps the most mind-blowing book I ever read. I JUST DON’T CARE about the nicotine. Why should I let it spoil my love of the book?
Read the above.
And then read the next paragraph, then read the above again, and tell me if anything has changed in the above.
I have about six crowned teeth, and very few teeth that don’t have some filling, dentists shake their head at me…
Does that change my words? I think not, unless one WANTS to pick fault.
*****
I told you before, Dominic, parables are parables. Judge them too literally, and you miss their point.
******
Perfect acceptance is a gift, a joy, or at least an aspiration giving my life meaning. It is not something to ‘believe in’, it is the bloom of the peaceful soul.
SN has introduced colour tv. A short extract then of Bidi Baba (advaita 101).. more on youtube
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
Good stuff Dom but that is last year’s version.
The new version 2.0 says that it is the Other that creates the (consciousness of) Self. Without the other there is no Self. Or in other words, without the Other, everything is Self. It is the separation which creates the ecstasy of re-union.
Other than that everything is fine.
Oh you missed the 3.0 update…
Nothing exists… no matter.
Smug would be the word. You are kind of interesting but are you that interesting? Why martyn and frank are not involved since for a while..dom, it starts to be the same tape, same, same.
There is a life after Sannyas; there is a life after wars and Tsunamis.
There is life after rape and separation.
people who lose all in catastrophes and ponzi schemes also have the life after.
Business of living goes on some time like a autumn tree, sometime like as in Spring.
During Pune 2 phase, majority of the regular visitors were from Germany. In whole of developed countries, German women have the highest percentage to get married with foreigners. It shows their innocent and non calculative heart and also their high hardheadedness.
As there was no support groups other than expansive groups, sannyas in Germany started leaking gas like a birth day balloon, one sees night after.
I can imagine there is a high number of people who reverted back to their original names, sold Osho books back in the second hand market and removed all other visible signs like photos and music Cd’s etc.
As the German mind is forward looking, country built up again after the impact of two world wars; these people too have rebuilt their life.
It is heart warming to meet such people once in a while. These are the people who are the first rays of third matrix; life beyond money and power.
What a load of sanctimonious nonsense. Shantypants is outdoing himself in the gobble d gook department today.
I have described a certain way of being under various names: ‘enlightenment’, ‘That’, peace, total acceptance… And I also said at the start that it is my task to find new or better words.
Today I chose Moksha, liberation.
Introducing this way of being, I spoke of it as if of the point, or culmination, of a certain (spiritual) practice.
Today I prefer Liberation, as it must also be from the past, and therefore transcendent of that view of itself as culmination.
I prefer that word today as it can function as guiding star, as aspiration, also as indicating the peace of accomplishment, while at the same time being absolute negation (if there is something it cannot negate, it is not proper liberation), and it is therefore also none of those functions.
I write all this simply as reminder, not as any claim to status. It is no big deal, and it is better that way, any big deal hinders movement, as it is hard to follow up on.
Yet there is satisfaction here, and that satisfaction is the outward manifestation of inner bliss.
It is the satisfaction of perfection, which is not a word to fear, after all, it just means completeness… And is there anyone out there who has never completed something? It just means completion, or if you prefer, wholeness.
But, as I have already suggested, it is nothing static. You can see that, you see me continue writing!
Definitely no use, Phoenix, to excuse for not being a sannyasin when posting on sannyasnews since this is basically a meeting place for people exactly like you. The clever and truly intelligent ones who have moved on, looked through the master/disciple game, and (imagine themselves to) have arrived.
What always get overlooked is that Osho’s perhaps greatest experiment was the idea of ‘unconditional sannyas’, of giving sannyas to (almost) everybody despite of our obvious lack of qualifications. And that receiving a new name and a mala was only the preliminaries not the real initiation…
Therefore – which is very obvious at SN – lots of people can imagine themselves to have been sannyasins – and afterwards ‘dropping’ sannyas – who have never even entered the gate.
Does that mean Heeren is one of the true sannyasins? Unfortunately not but at least he is aware of the predicament unlike Phoenix, Lokesh et al..
So much for my yearly visit to the sadly stagnant SN.
Miss you already. XXX my ass.
i really wonder shantam prem (5. february at8.52 pm -10.19 pm)
what in your everyday life might
bring you concerning “sannyas” “after sannyas”
near to one the one hand to phantasies of peep and porn and sexual violence (like so often before)
on the other hand near to phantasies of “after war times” or times after other calamities like tzunamis and or other catastrophes and a way to mesure “ongoing” by flowerings of business markets. ( money issues ??)
“THE” german women
phantasy you seem to indulge in does not exist
the issue “cheriveti – cheriveti”
go on- go on- as a loving invitation
had a lot of honest and very touching contributions here
i am happy that your kind of views are this time rather rare
madhu
Fresch , glad you’re around
Domeanic , sometimes you’re just that !
These days I am not a great fan of spices but once in awhile its ok , I guess , mostly I tend to bypass .
At SN you have to be careful because people set up traps for you. But that is really fun part of it. Even they did not fall for them. Or of course you can keep on whispering in wolf’s ears. everybody seems to have their own agenda. That is the power of words.
Well, well, that’s is exactly what is happening with “trapping “ right here and now. Shantam gets Lokesh and madhu every time. I can almost see him laughing his head off. Also dom has been quite good inspiring his personal playmate satyadeva even it seems dom is becoming “same, same” and satyadeva is getting bored or perhaps finished with it. Do you folks ever look why are you so much into some person or issue? That would be interesting. Phoenix you are giving real value with you authenticity. Kavita, cooking or tasting is travelling the world around, isn’t it.
Fresch.
You are too kind hearted for your own good.
As I said yesterday, Fresch, I see certain negative aspects of my ‘self’ in Dominic, which might well be a significant part of why I have a go at him.
And as I’ve also stated, my view is he doesn’t see straight, imagining his personal ‘story’ and its resulting personal standpoint necessarily applies to everyone else. I find that so blatantly biased by personal emotion it’s actually offensive.
Perhaps I need to repeat, I’m by no means a ‘blind’ supporter of all masters/teachers/gurus, far from it. One simply has to discriminate, according to one’s lights.
Of course there are fakes and phoneys, perhaps many – it would be far more surprising if there weren’t. And I suspect the vast majority of eastern gurus have little to offer the average westerner, beyond a taste of the ‘exotic’, a bit of ‘eastern promise’ (like ‘Turkish Delight’).
But there are plenty of ‘genuine articles’, various types of teachers for various types and conditions of people, it’s not by any means a case of ‘one size fits all’ – Osho most definitely not excluded. That’s probably why they often criticise each other, wanting to make sure they’re attracting/repelling the ‘right’ clientele, their particular segment of humanity.
Also, again as I said yesterday, at times some of us might be far better off finding a good therapist rather than perhaps risking the further disillusionment, bitterness, resentment etc. of failed expectations in the ‘Master Game’. (I speak from experience, btw).
you speak from experience, and for all I know your words are helpful for some.
To me however they look odd. Does not involvement in the master game involve something like becoming wise or acquiring self-knowledge?
In that case failed expectations are a cause for joy, a mark of progress. Either the expectations were flawed in the first place, or the handling of them was wrong… Now then one is wiser… Rejoice!
Agreed, phoenix. And I’m sure both the possibilities you cite (last parag.) apply to quite a few of us.
The problem arises when we don’t take responsibility ourselves and lapse into chronic blame, enjoying looking for evidence that the whole ‘spiritual trip’ is flawed, teachers/masters/gurus are invariably not what they claim or seem to be, therefore I have/we have been conned. A classic ‘victim’ trip.
As I said, therapy might be – and might always have been – more appropriate for some.
satyadeva says:
>> As I said, therapy might be – and might always have been – more appropriate for some.
Old style religions contained within their structure ‘therapies’, with elements such as confession, oath, contemplation, etc. In ancient Greece religious observances were called ‘therapies’. Modern ‘religious agnosticism’ is depriving man from the therapy element.
Osho was very wise to place western style psychotherapy as an aid to his meditations but unfortunately we know how that went… with the therapists turning into priests overnight.
Strangely enough, these days, many Corporations are using ‘cult type’ techniques in their transactions with their staff.
They only became priests because we/ they had baggage about priests and religion.
Was an opportunity to get past something.
phoenix, acquiring self-knowledge is an oxymoron. It is a bit like you and the ‘self’ are separate.
If you accept that we are all the same, (like peas in a pod), then you must accept that the more you know about yourself, then the more you will know about everybody.
Once you get a glimpse of the tabula rasa… that everything is conditioning… and it cannot be deconditioned but only (hopefully consciously) reconditioned.
I can make sense of the expression ‘acquiring self-knowledge’. And certainly it does not exclude knowledge of others.
But if you prefer just drop it.
Just stick with ‘getting wise’. Can you accept that?
The rest is too brief and grand for me to comment on, care to expand?
>> care to expand?
As you say, it is too vast. I better drop it.
Arpana says:
>> Was an opportunity to get past something.
I don’t think we had the time. The kind of resistance we got in the US and the way it came on strong and fast, it put the organization into a different footing that what was (perhaps) intended. It went from a mystical school into the Alamo. A lot of the organization’s internal problems have to be attributed to that.
I’ve been involved with Osho thirty five years Varti.
Of course I’ve had the time to work through most of that religious crap.
Sannyas and meditation aren’t instant coffee.
remember one rule of the game: the master, and therefore all expectations of the master, disappear. You don’t.
Fresch , cooking has never been my forte , unless it’s for survival & there have mostly been better alternatives available , making veggie & fruit salads & different kind of cold teas & drinks , is more my thingy . In fact these days I am not into travelling , Iam more into hibernating.
Shantam gets Lokesh and madhu every time. Fresch, obviously you are not getting that it is you who might be getting got.
thankyou, Fresch
Arpana, it’s so true..who else would do it?
Everything has a place.
If you cannot horn your car, you have no car.
and I think best cars are those, who scare the shit of people even without horn.
(Impression of someone who has no car)
Shantam’s ‘on the horn’* again – watch out, ladies!
(*Slang phrase meaning sexually aroused).
Quite often when someone quotes Gurdjieff or Ramana maharishi; I remember the face of last French President Sarkozy.
Little man used to wear high heels to prove taller like his naturally tall bomb shell.
These days it’s known as ‘bigging yourself up’, Shantam, in this case, by association.
A common enough trait, I suppose, eg football fans boasting about how ‘big’ their club is!
Once you see through it, it’s really pretty funny.
Hey Bodhi Heeren
Welcome back after all this time!
I don’t judge SN as stagnant. I try to ensure my own posts are as fresh and inspired as possible, that seems the limit of my responsibility. You are free to find them stale. Then don’t eat!
Osho is no longer here to tell me if my sannyas was correct or not. But anyway to me it seems all gifted, including the option of self-assessment.
You seem to judge yourself poorly, though then you compliment yourself. You also seem to judge me and others subtly, as vain perhaps. Ok. Go ahead.
Was Osho ever here to to tell us if our sannyas was correct or not?
I’m reading a Darshan Diary again.
He seems as here as he ever has been to me.
I’m reading Bible again.
He seems as here as he ever has been to me.
(Common expression of More than 500 million born again Christians)
Yes, but rather a HUGE difference, isn’t there?
We’ve ‘met’ Osho in the flesh…We can only imagine and project on to Jesus…
Osho left us 24 years ago, Jesus spoke his last words over 2000 years ago…
Osho is there, in millions of recorded words, photos and videos – Jesus? Well, let’s not embarrass any Christians, eh?!
Think next time, before writing such rubbish, Shantam!
There are sites on the internet where you can chat with other morons, I mean xtians.
We’ve ‘met’ Osho in the flesh…
Are you counting Arpana too in the “we”, Mr. Satyadeva
And how many others you have “met in the Flesh”?
It must be a world record, one great master after another, all meeting in flesh…!
Yes, master Shantam, I was including Arpana and many others here, all really, including even you (note the ‘ ‘ around ‘met’).
As for your last sentence – very good, probably the best laugh I’ve had today!
It’s kind of strange for me. Lokesh and madhu always get silent when asked directly about what is their “Indian issue”. Lokesh calls Arun “a lizard” and madhu has given her descriptions of fitting every one and all Indians.. But when asked, “what is your personal issue with this?”, they disappear.
What does it remind you of? Some creature that is very fast. Sister and brother. These kinds of attitudes are so widespread in Europe now under economic depression. Spread among lower class, bitter people. However, it’s not politically correct to challenge “street smart, authentic experiences…” No, it’s not. You have to understand them or at least endure them.
Have you been sniffing glue with Shantypots?
Living in ghetto but with pride, ” Our great great grand father built the red fort”.
Many times past has no present but only memories!
thank you arpana.
beauty
what you posted,
madhu
I’m guessing you mean the painting, Madhu.
His name’s Odilon Redon.
A favorite painter.
http://www.odilon-redon.org/
Thanks, Arpana – at first glance I rather like them as well. Never heard of him until now.
I didn’t know the artist but recently I was doing research on the cyclops and was looking thru google/images and I thought his cyclops strung a chord. I actually saved that image on my phone. Good to see his other work.
http://www.odilon-redon.org/The-Cyclops.html
He was prolific.
At his best, imo, amongst the best,
but some of his work is just technically proficient.
Now that I have seen it all… he looks like an early mixture of Dali and Picasso. Very esoteric and visionary.
He predates both of them, but there is more of an overlap with Picasso, so they may well have influenced each other.
My feeling was that he predated both of them. I meant it in reference that there was abstract and surrealist art before them.
http://art-now-and-then.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/first-abstract-painting.html
dear arpana,
its more than the post of a beautiful painting i ve been referring too yesterday
the painting is one thing
words are or can be another -
i have been reminded on the last satsangs in pune I then and there
and reminded on more than the poetry of a libanese american poet (and seer) khalil gibran ( the prophet and …voyages…)
so – that happened to be your gift for me
and – as i said it before – the joy i feel – when something precious is being taking care of in turbulent times
and
thank you again for this too
love
madhu
Thank YOU Madhu.
gratitude, an echo of Gibran…. Thus this symphony could end. Or is it only the first movement?
I have written positively here of a fruitful master-disciple relationship, which is, as Osho told us, a love affair.
Others it seems have not enjoyed that. One person warns above against the pitfalls of false expectations.
I guess that warning can be helpful.
For me though, I wonder how far this warning should go.
Humans fall in love all the time in sexual-romantic fashion, and typically then project many expectations onto each other, not always helpfully. The results can be dire, even suicide at times.
I myself got for myself dire results at times, including a long descent into alcoholism. But in the end I always came out wiser.
And falling in love was mostly so beautiful!
So I am not issuing any warnings. Fall in love, I still say! Just collect the wisdom as you go!
Ok, Madhu and Lokesh. I am sorry for what I wrote. I just have been pissed off so much about this split within sanyas and I have been obsessive with the picture everybody all over the world holding hands together.. ”Imagine if all the people..” etc graph. I just need to get more real.