The Guru phenomenon in the West
The following observations by John Heron, a well known English sociologist, gives an overview of the history and evolution of the guru phenomenon in the West and in popular consciousness. A contributor felt that the readers of SN might find it clarifying, and worthy of comment in the context of earlier discussions about the guru phenomenon at SN. .
“There seem to be four phases in the guru phenomenon in the West.
In the late decades of the nineteenth century and early decades of the twentieth century, there was just a small guru-invasion from the East with key players like Vivekananda and the spread of the Vedanta movement in the West.
Then post-war from 1945 with the publication of Huxley’s The Perennial Philosophy, there started a major guru-invasion from the East including the dramatic spread through the 60s and the 70s of Zen and Tibetan Buddhism in the USA and Europe.
In the third phase, over the last thirty years or so, alongside the guru-invasion from the East there has been the growing phenomenon of homegrown Western gurus and spiritual teachers claiming the special status of ‘enlightenment’.
The fourth phase is just getting under way. It seems to be distinguished by four features.
The erosion of guru status as a result of sexual and financial abuse and bullying scandals among both Eastern and homegrown Western gurus and spiritual teachers.
The erosion of ‘enlightenment’ claims by the proliferation of the number of people, especially in the West, making the claim: the more people who make the claim, the more its narcissistic inflation stands revealed. For the ‘enlightenment’ claim is also an authority-claim to have followers, a recruiting drive; and the more claims that are made, the stronger the competition among claimants in the market-place for attention.
A growing awareness that spiritual authority is within and that to project it outward on to a teacher, tradition or text is an early, adolescent phase of spiritual development in the one projecting, and counters spiritual manipulative abuse in any guru/teacher who seeks to elicit, to appropriate and to sustain the projection.
The emergence of peer to peer spirituality, which democratizes charismatic, enlightened leadership, and realizes that it is a role which different persons assume at different times, either in the initiation of a peer group or in the continuous unfolding of its process. ”
“Four phases of the guru phenomenon in the West” John Heron dated April 2, 2005
reprinted in P/I: Pluralities/Integration no.65: April 20, 2005
Here is the wikipedia entry on John Heron: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Heron
Like a seasonal flowers, they came, left the fragrance in the auto mechanic´s garage.
No more Gurus from India, only Pope the Francis on the cover of Rolling stone and on Time magazine!
It would seem the guru is out. Squawk!
He is no more.
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If Osho chip card is no more in the range in the west, mostly it is because of the half cooked therapists and over all pride, Our Guru has spoken volumes; after all Osho books will get more shelf space in the book stores.
As far as other gurus are concerned, one should ask, why Mahesh Yogi kind of Hindu predators could penetrate the innocent western heart.
In the fitness studio or in the public transport, I simply adore people with the feeling, ” They are not initiated by someone this or that.”
For what?
Its from my personal experience. There is nothing like to be able to live (and work) in a Buddha field ( where like minded people gather, meditate, work and celebrate). It does not matter to what Guru ( or no-guru) they are subscribed to. The key is that there is Zorba(horizontal/width) cum Buddha(vertical/depth) energy is present.
The Popes and Pandits have poisoned the energy as much as they could. Only solace now is to bring people who understand and experience the essence together. Its high time people who are subscribed to different gurus drop the boundaries and mingle. Can we at least see ( from our very own family) Arun Ji and Jayesh da sitting and having a laugh together in this life time?
dear lokesh, dear shantam prem
a phenomenon is not what the
ESSENCE IS
what a “quicky way” you both have chosen to
re-ply
i am more in wonder
and grateful too
madhu
Like ‘conspiracy theories’, ‘guru’, ‘cult’, ‘ranch’… they are all loaded words.. The ‘analogues’ will persist but probably under different names and using different methods. The problem is that we are wandering on this planet with a species-amnesia, so the first person who says they have figured it out we all lend an ear. That process will not stop until we truly find out what is going on.
I would rather go with a guru even if he is fake, culty rather than go with people who are nay sayers. I think guru is the greatest tantrum ever created by the spiritual techies.
Like saying…
“I would rather sleep with a transvestite, than listen to people saying, “he’s a transvestite!”
Sure if you’re that lost and lonely, any port in a storm will do. Personally I’d rather fiddle with myself.
For me, before Osho, anything with guru in it was a no-no. As far as Osho was concerned, the guru term was like his tea-cosy hats… i.e. something particular to him, and his Indian-ness and shouldn’t be taken too seriously or attempted to be copied.
You make Osho sound like a quirky, ‘bohemian’ intellectual who happened to be a wise and loving guy.
Or, a wise and loving guy who happened to be a quirky, ‘bohemian’ intellectual.
Could you be, er, ‘projecting’ something here, Vartan, something along the lines of the ‘ideal self’ you’d like to be/have been? Or even are?!!
Sure, he was both these – and far, far more (as you’ve already acknowledged).
‘In the third phase, over the last thirty years or so, alongside the guru-invasion from the East there has been the growing phenomenon of homegrown Western gurus and spiritual teachers claiming the special status of ‘enlightenment’.’
In the last 30 years? A somewhat limited view. Perhaps Mr Heron has never heard of Jesus Christ, Gurdieff and countless others who influenced people’s lives in a spiritual way, gurus, during the past 2000 years. The problem lies in commerce and corruption. Yet there are gurus who have lived and walked the earth who were not prone to such temptations. If one seeks spiritual inspiration examining such men and women’s lives might be a good place to begin. The article is okay, but presents a vision that is general and not specific. There will always exist exceptions to the rule. Unfotunately, Osho was not one of them. Nonetheless, Osho had much of value to impart and he did affect many people’s lives in a very positive and profound way and continues to do so even today, on a more limied level, it is for this reason that he will be revered by many for some time to come.
I think John Heron is referring to the recent wave of western gurus which is unprecendeted. At the risk of blasphemy, I wouldn’t include Jesus, who’s theistic and middle-eastern anyway. Whether he really existed or who he was or what he said is moot and has been doctored.
As for geeorges ivanovich (Armenia) and countless others, they are maybe known to you by their legends, but not the millions who have by now been exposed to live or you tubed western modern teachers.
“Yet there are gurus who have lived and walked the earth who were not prone to such temptations. If one seeks spiritual inspiration examining such men and women’s lives might be a good place to begin.”
I submit that he golden past of teachers with haloes is as mythical as anything else. There has been more scrutiny in the last 50 years with all the new media, which is why many have been caught with their pants down and exposed.
If anything with less hierarchy and more exposure teachers have had to up their game.
Western civilization has been evolving exponentially and rapidly in the last period and taking spirituality with it.
There will still be gurus, but the teaching style has become much more informal and democratic. Rarely does anyone outside of the east, speak of surrendering to the guru or of his presumed infallibilty.
In fact history is being rewritten, and westerners are now claiming that their guru is human and has flaws, as a way of reconciling themselves to the obvious discrepancies between what they say and what they do, and yet still keeping the whole institution going.
Osho was a rare bird and not just another “hindu predator” like MMY et al, and will continue to affect people.
I too revere people with special talent, just don’t big them up to make yourself small, is what I say. And that your own inner guru should be first and foremost in this new ‘fourth phase.’
A link for the free download of “stripping the gurus” if you haven’t read it.
It’s not the final word and could do with an update, but an ‘enlightening’ and entertaining read, I thought.
http://www.strippingthegurus.com
Good post, Dom.
Lokesh says:
>> Good post, Dom.
+1
I particularly liked the bit about Osho being a rare bird… he was. And well worth following around. None of us were stupid or gullible.
Osho’s vision has permeated into the contemporary scene.
You can see his influence directly or indirectly in many satsang teachers, tantra leaders, and lightworkers. The heart quality, ‘juiciness’ and celebration of sannyas energy is very attractive.
A new generation of indian gurus have picked up quite a few tips from him. Check this one out. I’ve been to his Ashram and hung out with him. Nice enough fellow with lots of copying, down to the white robes. Still love is theft they say.
Lots of swedish girls (wake up shantam!)…
http://youtu.be/AbwIxVjBb0o
Seems kinda ‘old hat’ to me…So does the dancing and general ambience…
They seem happy enough though…
I do wonder though exactly how far these Indian teachers can actually take westerners.
Nah, wouldn’t fancy wearing a hat like those….
This chap does a good osho…
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Lokesh says:
>> In the last 30 years? A somewhat limited view.
Absolutely. Information has been flowing back and forth forever. The Romans were fighting engrossing cults (from the East) like Cybele’s and Xtianity. The Indian’s were ‘fighting’ Alexander the great’s provoking philosophies 600 years before that. Everywhere the European catholic countries have occupied, you will find the missionaries (right behind the soldiers) ‘converting’ the locals.
There was a documentary which suggested that Osho was part of a bigger Hindu conspiracy to expand their religion in the world. That is Xtian propaganda,… I couldn’t see Osho being part of anything, but who knows? There maybe ghosts behind the ghosts. We mustn’t forget that the Indians are the real Aryans. I must admit I prefer Indian food above all else. Is the way to a mans head is through his stomach? And above we mustn’t forget that we are all emissaries of a man from the east.
I just wikipedia-ed ‘guru’ and it appears to have been an ‘oral tradition’… they didn’t have Bible reading classes, THEY DIDN’T HAVE BIBLES. Before things could be written down, they were carried in people’s heads. In the same way we today idolize actors, in the far past they adolized ‘poets’ (they didn’t write the poem’s -tho some did- they just sung them), and ‘religious men’ (carriers of the dharma). I feel that Osho was part of that old ‘oral tradition’. The last time we saw anything like him in the west was probably Orpheus. Once we found writing (in the west) the oral part dropped off… it would be impossible for homegrown Western gurus to get anywhere because they are not even on the same page. They don’t know what ‘poems’ to sing, let alone remember them.
Great post Varti. What an interesting notion.
The lyricism of his spoken words are indeed so
beguiling, so plausible.
That’s kind of sweet and romantic varti, with just a little Greek bias.
The other day you didn’t know what non-duality or advaita was.
When I mentioned Eckhart Tolle, you didn’t know who he was.
You’ve been Rip Van Wrinkled mate, and speak like an expert on mastermind. I’ll have to press the buzzer, I’m afraid.
Epic fail, but not in the homerian sense.
Eckhart Tolle? Just googled him. He looks like a rat and I don’t like rats. Has it occurred to you that perhaps not everybody went to Osho from the same path. I bet I know ppl you don’t know. What does it prove?
If you want to get all Homeric about it… we are both here so we must have been on the right paths. Now if you don’t mind stepping aside… I am trying to pass.
What does it prove?
More research required for such proclamations to carry weight.
It’s like saying,
“the last great physicist was Archimedes and no I haven’t heard of Einstein and I’m still not fessing up, so there.”
I’m sure you know heaps of stuff about what interests you and you don’t need to know more.
But it’s equally silly to sound knowledgeable about a field in which you appear to be not so well versed.
I wouldn’t presume to know anything about watches or early minoan culture, for example.
I don’t know why you bring physicists into a conversation about philosophers. Or is it because it suits your point?
The human body with its pains and ecstasies has been the same for thousands of years and the methods of psychic manipulation have not changed at all.
You can technicalise it as much as you wish, but you or Mr Tolle cannot make bread taste better. It really is as simple as that.
No matter vartypants.
I agree, lord of the full moon had the gift of the gab.
The Moon Lord got good at it by entering (and winning) Argument Competitions.
This must be good training ground for you.
It’s the 6th form oral and mass debating club that I never had, ‘sniff.’
‘X’ factor for foolosophers and poonatics.
And without a panel of judges, everybody is free to think they’re a winner.
http://uvmbored.com/files/2011/08/Debate.jpg
>> ‘X’ factor for foolosophers and poonatics.
After winning one year Osho re-entered the same competition, argued the opposite point from the time before and won again.
Now argue the opposite of what you said above or forever hold your pieces.
Two days ago I was having a coffee with a ancient sannyasin friend in a bio vegetables market. Energy was similar like Buddha field. I have observed people who go to such markets have an aura of grace around them.
The friend, who for years is in and out from a seekers community created by one former Osho disciple said, ” I was reading your posts.”
I asked, ” On facebook?”
He said, no on sannyas site.
Then I remember this man is no on facebook. He thinks all data is collected by CIA. I have always dusted this thought by saying, ” If so..then what? Just because there are cc Cameras on street you don´t stop walking.”
Any way, he said, ” There is so much negative and mind energy at sannyasnews. he likes to read someone like Lokesh. Lokesh has experience and balanced outlook which inspires.
It means, if Lokesh visits Freiburg, there is someone to ask for his autograph.
May be we can create an event too, ” Gossips with sannyasnews writer Swami Ibiza Lokesh!
There’s only one thing worse than being talked about and that’s not being talked about.
When people use phrases like “negative and mind energy” you’re back in the gulags and in for counter-revolutionary re-education.
Seems dated and suspect to me now. (Code for, don’t make me think or question anything.)…Or maybe he’s right?
Still a well-deserved compliment for lokeshji. Jai Jai!
shantam prem says:
>> Energy was similar like Buddha field. I have observed people who go to such markets have an aura of grace around them.
Really? Have you observed people who go to banks, or toilets? How about people that go to bed, they look pretty peaceful and Buddhai?
>> Any way, he said, ” There is so much negative and mind energy at sannyasnews.
Next time you have coffee with him, tell him he is free to come and change the energy.
And yet, ‘He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know.’
Oh….I forgot…life is full f contradictions and being contradictory means you ae in tune with life.
…..This way please for Lao Tzu House…where the world’s most silent talkative man once lived…..refreshments will be served.
Don’t be deluded by words. They are not truth; they may appear like truth, but they are not. A lived moment cannot be expressed. A live thing can be known only by living it.
OSHO
Perhaps , the only remembrance worthwhile , could be self-remembrance , is that what is being said here or am I missing the point /no-point ?
Sounds like you might still be in the second or third phase kavs.
No worries, you can always ask for an upgrade from the flight attendant later.
you’re right dom , but there’s no hurry for this upgrade , i guess .
Self-remembrance? What? Do you actually forget who you are?
ya many times .
In my country the Church (alternative religions research) actually refer osho as a Hindu new age guru and religion.
I also do agree with Parmatha, that one should not create a co-dependent relationship with osho. Well, it does happen like in any other relationship. And this reminds me what Lokesh has said that guru (here osho) takes all emotional energy, that actually would be healthy to put to your personal relationships; friends and a lover/partner. So true, so difficult.
There is no osho written in the sky. But meditation within. Rarely people are interested in their careers (even as a therapist or some other guru) when they die. Your personal connections and experience count; people you can feel some heart connection. the same thing also at moment, here and now.
How can we be in a co-dependent relationship with Osho?
Far too many of us for him to notice the loss of any one of us.
Surely.
The ties that bind. Mutual dependency. More about the dynamic.
The guru is addicted to adulation and his devotee to approval… as an example.
And you, Dominic, what are you “addicted” to?
Cynicism, sarcasm, all-round self-serving clever-dickery pretending to be ‘creative’, bigging-up your self by putting down anyone who might just possibly be more, er, ‘evolved’ than you?
Can’t you see all that in you? It’s just blindingly obvious!
Did somebody get out of the wrong side of bed this morning?
Just a simple generalised reply to arps’ question of how codependency works.
How does codependency work with a dead person?
PS And don’t say, Advaita.
No, that would be madvaita or sadvaita.
How can someone who’s not a ‘person’ and was never born and never died, die?
“On his deathbed Ramana told his grieving devotees, “You say I am going away, but where can I go? I am always here.”
In fact this whole play of gurus and devotees is part of the dream. Only one being here, end of story.
Want to know more?
Come to my satsang…
Also, I must say, my pre sanyas friends and family since 24 years never left me…in whatever face I was in..and what a traffic (!) there has been with my sanyas “friends”.
More of John Heronji from Domypaste.
If you like his thinking all his books and stuff (a painter too) are freely downloadable from..
http://www.human-inquiry.com/page6.html
“An increasing number of spiritually-minded people are currently busy with their own lived inquiry, and are seeking open and constructive dialogue about it. I call this social phenomenon a newly emerging and self-generating spiritual culture. It is a loose, informal network of individuals and groups who are creating their own spiritual path from a diversity of ancient and modern sources. It involves a growing and significant minority of people across the planet. My sense of it is that there are three interrelated criteria which, applying in varying degrees to any one individual, identify these people:
They affirm their own original relation to the presence of creation, find spiritual authority within and do not project it outward onto teachers, traditions or texts.
They are alert to the hazards of defensive and offensive spirituality, in which unprocessed emotional distress distorts spiritual development, either by denying parts of one’s nature, or by making inflated claims in order to manipulate others.
They are open to genuine dialogue about spiritual beliefs and to collaborative decision-making about spiritual practices undertaken together.”
One essential aspect of this development is that it almost certainly wouldn’t have been possible without the existence and work of gurus, teachers, masters.
These people have prepared the ground, their teachings and consciousness (why does that tend to sound like a cliché these days?!) have penetrated the human psyche enough to produce such a phenomenon.
Therefore I suggest genuine acknowledgement is required, rather than the sort of wary, lukewarm, ‘I see through it all’ scepticism of the likes of you, Dominic, for example.
It’s all no doubt very fine if people are truly able to independently ‘grow spiritually’, although I suspect there are also plenty of examples of delusion and confusion among those involved. Which is where the help of a truly evolved teacher is invaluable or even essential.
Perhaps all that’s happening is that some people are actually attempting to ‘live the teaching’ they’ve received, and sharing and comparing their experience with others of a similar inclination. And why not?
If more clarity is achieved, great. But that doesn’t in itself preclude the need for a living master to inspire and guide others, whatever stage they might be at, beginner, ‘advanced’ or anywhere else in the spectrum.
Arpana, to be co-dependent of an image or a fantasy of osho, being a fan. Not living your own real life.
Okey Dokey.
Yeah. I get your point.
Although that still isn’t codependency. That’s just one sided beggarly attachment to a fantasy.
Not “co-dependent”, just ‘dependent’ is enough.
To suggest that Osho ‘depended’ on his disciples/friends/fellow travellers is just too absurd for words, frankly. Ultimately (in the words of the prophet) he simply didn’t give a shit. Which is why he was a master.
Infamy! Infamy! Someone’s got it in for me.
Holy Jihad, SD (peace be upon him) has been radicalised, grown a beard and a turban.
Allahoo Crapbar! Stonings and beheadings for the infidels!
Well, young man, in the immortal style of Hurree Singh (not you, Shantam, but a schoolboy character in the old ‘Billy Bunter of Greyfriars’ stories):
“Gosh, the PUERILITY of the above post is TERRIFIC!”
And Shanty pants is a dead ringer for Billy Bunter.
http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Billy-Bunter-eats.jpg
Remember Quelch, the head master?
Osho at times actually lived inside his library. His was standing on the shoulders of giants. And that is how he learned not to give a shit.
But he did love us, because he went a long way out of his way to find us and spend the rest of his life with us.
If Osho depended on reading books for being emotionally and psychologically free then he wasn’t a master, he was a fraud, SN better shut down and we’d better all just go elsewhere.
Yes, of course he loved, as Shyam Singha (his former physician in the early days) once said, “No one, no master has a bigger heart”. But a master knows impersonal love, cool, unattached, in equilibrium, rather than our normally ‘personal’, ‘hot ‘n’ bothered’, emotional, hence immature and problematic variety.
If you think otherwise then you’re just projecting your self on to him (or any other master worthy of the name). And you’re misunderstanding the master consciousness.
I do not think otherwise.
Satyadeva, osho said he does not give a shit, but who knows. It was really good what you said arpana that sanyasins are arrogant and ignorant. I can reflect that in my self too and i do not like it. I do not like even that feeling of it.
Fresch, in terms of ‘dependency’ there’s simply no argument worth pursuing.
If Osho was emotionally ‘dependent’ on his disciples then he was a fraud and not worth anyone’s time or consideration as a master.
Masters don’t ‘care’, just as Life doesn’t ‘care’ – not in the way we like to imagine. That’s why, ‘for God’s sake’, they’re free!
I don’t think ‘care’ is the right word.
Osho was totally emotionally dependent on his work, the effect it had on his audience, and their response.
Many enlightened beings do not go out to teach. Others write books and stay at home. On the other hand Osho was very much out there, traveling a lot, and being hands-on, especially in the early days before the ranch which implies a certain commitment (i.e. dependency).
Otherwise, he could have sat in one place and let the world come to him.
Given he was not, there was no one to need, in the sense we use the word to need.
He was more the sun shining, a cloud releasing rain. That was, is his nature. Not a a personality based doingness.
Perhaps it’s just a matter of rather ill-chosen words, but to say “Osho was totally emotionally dependent on his work, the effect it had on his audience, and their response” is making him appear like any old workaholic, anyone committed to a cause, rather than who and what he actually was:
IE a man both profoundly ‘present’ and equally profoundly ‘absent’, an empty space, ordinary, for sure, yet extraordinary in that inner silence, that essential (ie of the essence) detachment.
Thus, he would do all he possibly could to ‘awaken’ his people – while being profoundly unattached to the results of his efforts.
Total, yes – but “emotionally dependent”, absolutely not.
Otherwise, no master was he.
Perhaps you did not understand Osho’s work. Osho’s work was, Osho. He was a master of himself.
Once you are a master of yourself, you are everybody’s master.
Yes/No
But, Vartan, to say “Osho was totally emotionally dependent on his work” is to suggest his work – even if by that you mean his ‘work on himself’ – was on the level of an ‘emotional crutch’, without which he might ‘fall apart’ and perhaps become some sort of psychiatric case.
That might, I suppose, have been true while he was enduring his ‘dark night of the soul’, aged around 20, but not by the time he’d found and was living in spiritual maturity. By then he’d long died emotional and psychological deaths and, as he himself said, was totally new inside, disconnected from the person he used to be, in an inner sense (in innocence) re-born.
Fresch.
These are not my words.
‘It was really good what you said arpana that sanyasins are arrogant and ignorant. ‘
This is a sweeping generalisation, so would be Vartan or Shantam.
My personal experience of individuals connected to Osho is of a spectrum, from the most down to earth, straight forward, honorable and decent individuals I have ever met, to the other extreme of adolescent at best, or worse, and one character who is probably clinically and dangerously insane.
Arps, …and now you found us!
Sannyasins trying to communicate with their minds are like fish trying to ride bicycles.
Believe you me Varti.
I get a lot out of Sannyas News.
Yes satyadeva, you are being specific..my mirror
Few people know so much about master´s psychology.
If you have eaten Chicken Tikka masala in many restaurants, you can think about the ingredients, even if you are a Vegetarian!
Is there any need for any Do´s and Don´t s?
shantam prem says:
>> Few people know so much about master´s psychology.
Osho was careful not to expose His psychology but other masters did.
Other than commenting on Osho´s inner state of being, it will be useful and also helpful if Satya Deva tells something about him.
Person who edited one of Osho´s best seller book in 1977-78, suddenly goes another way during the next 13 years or so.
I think as a fellow travellers, I will be surely glad to know, what he was doing those years and which other masters got his attention and time.
I’ll consult my agent and see if it’s worth it, Shantam, ok?!
But not tonight, too busy, will be leaving here shortly, after my second question to Dominic (to whom I owe a ‘gratitude list’ after his own of yesterday).
PS: That editing work was nearly 6 months during 74-5, btw, not 77-8.
Second question (of 7) to Dominic (from Jan 27, 4 days ago):
You might think it’s harder to ‘do it’ without a master, but what exactly are you trying to do anyway, one might well ask? And do you really need a master for whatever that is?
Of course, it’s easier when no one’s around to pull you up for being ‘self-ish’, one can more easily fool oneself, delude oneself one’s being ‘spiritual’ when all you’re doing is just giving your same old self a nice ‘polish’!
No, you don’t need a ‘master’.
You’re trying to be happy.
And if Sheela and others are an example of what being around a master can do for you, you’re better out than in.
I assume by “you” you mean ‘disciples’/'seekers’ etc. in general, including you and me, Dominic?
So presumably, you won’t be going to any more satsangs etc. or reading any more spiritual books? That party’s over for you, right? Fair enough, if so, who could possibly argue with your personal truth, with what’s good for you?
But what are you doing here then – trying to convince others they’re wrong?
And btw, why pick on one ‘bad apple’ (Sheela) when there are many other healthy ones to choose as examples? As I’ve said before, you don’t see straight, you’re an unreliable witness, whose conclusions are distorted by emotional bias, imagining your personal experience/’story’ applies to all.
I’ve lost interest SD.
You’re spoiling for a fight and your replies feel more like personal attacks than discussion, so no more questions.
Well, Dominic, this looks suspiciously as if you have no adequate answers to perfectly reasonable questions that are relevant to the topic(s) under discussion. Which is perhaps odd given your ‘clever clogs’ online persona. Or is it?
You’re a fine one to complain about ‘personal attack’, having enjoyed yourself doing just that to various people, including me, many times these last few months (thinking it’s being ‘creative’ or something?).
What you like to construe as a ‘personal attack’ boils down to me simply not trusting where you’re coming from and refusing to let you off the hook, confirmed by your withdrawal today.
Reminds me of when you wanted me to describe how I’d benefited from Sannyas etc., then didn’t, then did, and now, apparently, couldn’t care less.
Anyway, at the end of the day it’s only one-dimensional internet stuff, so while ideas and views are worth challenging, I realise impressions of ‘persons’ are not necessarily trustworthy.
Dominic, you say:
“No, you don’t need a ‘master’.
You’re trying to be happy.”
But the question was/is:
“You might think it’s harder to ‘do it’ without a master, but what exactly are you trying to do anyway, one might well ask? And do you really need a master for whatever that is?”
Is it so hard to own your answer by saying “I don’t need a master, I’m trying to be happy”, instead of putting it on others, on to “you”? Are you somehow embarrassed, or what?
kavita (31. january 4.43 pm)
NICE TO MEET YOU !
madhu
dear satyadeva ( 31. january 5.11 pm)
i got hooked so to say by all that “independence – co-dependance-dependance”
discussion
especially by your words:
….”total yes-but “emotional dependent” absolutely no.
otherwise, no master was he.”(describing osho ?)
i wonder all this thread why the word “INTERDEPENDANCE”
did not appear at all in the discussion up to now
there are indeed “master – psychopaths” as we call it sometimes in the
evening land – humans ,who apparently “don t care a shit” ,how it was called at other parts of threats about the effects their “devices” have on others.
i have to add here that i did not experience osho that way
while he was present in the body
yet – also those , who care a shit- if you really go into investigation – are interdependent.
the freedom-issue without including inter-dependance as a matter of fact
or including fallibility and need of corrections
the freedom issue is handled very often in a very immature shortsighted and also really FATAL way
if you look at outcomes of individual and also collective harm and destruction
done
as well as indifference happening on a very broad scale by on-lookers
sure, there are myths, enjoying this as leela too
and it may be very important then to have a deep look to the myths talkers and takers and mistalkers-takers
endless stories
finding new chapters every moment
interdependence happens every instant
it belongs to life itself
inside-outside
even if you sit in splendid or not so splendid isolation
or are seemingly part of a crowd or a team or whatsoever noticeable
or not noticeable
but yet present
we do t know a thing……
may be, that s why i simply loved kaviata s words
of honesty about her self-forgetfulness
in my eye side she s got any “upgrading” possible for that !
as well as i really liked her saying that she is not at all in a hurry to get
upgradings by other people like dominic for example.
some really good kind of inter-dependance dance; thats how i saw it
passing by in the caravanserai like this
interdependent -heart-greetings from my side
to ALL !
madhu
Ok arpana, somebody here made a listing of isms with their attributes here where ”oshoism” was described being arrogance and ignorance. And it kind of rings the bell for me.
On reflection probably Varti.
Sounds plausible.
Cant have been shanty pants.
Nothing he says sounds plausible.
Arrogance is not so bad, but pure childish ignorance just makes me often feel so embarrassed. There is not an English word for it, but you know it’s feeling of compassionate embarrassment. Like if you are invited to go for a date with a man and he does not pay for it. Or if you are in kundalini and some “trainee” comes to tell how to shake your body or of course when somebody comes to tell how to project your love…how to project your appreciation. How embarrassing.
Fresch, the word ‘embarrassment’ doesn’t exist in the sannyas dictionary. By being embarrassed, you are giving away too much power
‘Compassionate embarrassment’ is twice as bad, now you are feeling superior…
Compassion is a good word. Especially compassion for the ignorant.
Vartan, you say:
“Fresch, the word ‘embarrassment’ doesn’t exist in the sannyas dictionary. By being embarrassed, you are giving away too much power.”
What smug-sounding garbage you spout at times re what a sannyasin is, isn’t, should or shouldn’t be!
Do you realise you’re just creating and promoting yet another ‘orthodoxy’, yet another ‘way to be’, with all the usual pitfalls of cultish ‘rules of being’: arrogance/’failure’, judgment of others and self-judgment?
Imagining you’re promoting ‘freedom’ while in fact adding a few more metres to the walls of the prison.
I sometimes get the impression you’re swimming in delusion (almost as much as I am).
satyadeva says:
>> I sometimes get the impression you’re swimming in delusion (almost as much as I am).
You need to stand still, before you can tell whether I am moving or not.
(PS My tongue just put a hole through my cheek)
And Dom, your picture on Shantam and Satyadeva is is one of those situations. I do not like it at all.
http://unhindered.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/angry-woman-finger-faces.jpg
dominic (1.2.2014 at 3.58 pm)
dominic ? that special post of yours
is
f*******g s****d
sorry to say this – but *
what is – is – obviously -
what happened to you ?
madhu
“dominic ? that special post of yours
is
f*******g s****d”
Is the answer “f*cking sacred” (or scared)?
Are you playing scrabble with me?
In this string contributors seem to have ignored or forgotten what living around someone like Osho did or does. Some call it an “Energy transmission” others a “Contact High” yet others a “Buddhafield High”, and a myriad of other names.
Now of course one has to be a little “open” for that to happen, and though I had not realised it, many seem to quarrel about whether it even exists. And yes it is easily forgotten, like how the wonder and joy of childhood is smashed out of most human beings. That’s why spiritual life is often described as “simply recapturing being a child”.
The problem with even a well argued criticism of any teacher or Master is that if the writer has never experienced that joy then one is in a chasm of misunderstanding.
Such energy is the beacon of their gift, given freely to anyone who “catches” it. The force of it burns off all negativity and positivity, it is beyond both.
I remain doubtful whether an academic like Mr Heron who seems to consider himself an authority on the subject has tasted it.
John Heron is not just an academic. He founded co-counselling in the uk, and trained people in humanistic psych at Surrey Uni from the 60s on. Doesn’t matter really. He’s just echoing something I feel about the rapid evolution of transformational journeying through the last 50 years, and where it might be heading.
There are squillions of gurus by now and they they all have their fans.
One of the big draws is the idea of transmission. It may be real or imagined or group affect. If it’s true for you, that’s all that matters.
Has it lasted though or are we reminiscing?
“The force of it burns off all negativity and positivity, it is beyond both.”
Ok if you say so, that is part of the mythology of gurudom.
I’ve sat in satsang with osho and others, and it’s been sweet, but I can’t say life-changing. There are many kinds of contact highs and altered states, the danger would be in getting hooked on them or the set-up.
Since osho died and the buddhafield has declined, sanyassins have carried their thirst (I would say addiction) to a myriad of other gurus… Kalindi, miracle of love, amma/bhagavan, deeksha oneness blessing… rolling from one to the other.
And if you bother to look the majority of these gurus past and present are flawed and suspect, at least by my lights, as john heron intimates.
There probably are genuine ones or ‘good enough’, but even with the best intentions, I am not drawn to the guru paradigm, and find it quite alien and feudal.
As far as I can tell, few if any devotees get enlightened though many end up scarred, damaged and disillusioned with any form of spirituality.
Saw this quote on guruphiliac today about a new guru on the block in maui, prem baba and found myself nodding in agreement…
“And it seems that the bulk of his followers are former Osho people. I’ve notice that these people have a real need for worshipping a so-called guru. Plus add in the drugs, the psychology, the kirtan, the ecstatic experiences, a guy whose presence is necessary for enlightenment, and whoop di do! They love it!”
dominic says:
>> … add in the drugs, the psychology, the kirtan, the ecstatic experiences,
Advaita Lite
In the film ‘Kumare’, people imagined all sorts of shaktipat sweeties being bestowed upon them, from an amiable self-confessed fake.
Parmartha speaks of the “joy” and “burning off of all negativity” from this “contact high”.
Yet presumably the people closest to osho, who would have received the most bang-for-buck megawatts of energy transmission, emerged as some of the most unglued.
Sheela (off her trolley), vivek (suicide allegedly), the current management team managing to ban or alienate everybody, and a raft of other bit players, therapists, guards etc.
One can try and rationalize this away, but the simple formula of energy transmission = transformation doesn’t hold up.
What is more obvious is the gap between the elevated theory and the practical outcomes, across all the traditions and ‘independent’ dealers.
Indeed, some having been close to a master, get an inflated sense of themselves, and become the ‘cracked’ troops of his legacy.
Apart from a nice buzz and some memories for the scrapbook, it is hard to deduce any longterm discernible benefits.
Perhaps in more twilight years we hark back with rosy glasses for sustenance and confirmation, that it was time well wasted.
Possibly as well as a ‘beacon’, it is a virtuous loop.
Had Elvis been declared enlightened, the hordes of screaming, hysterical fans, full of youth and hormones, would have no doubt been receiving his shaktipat too.
If you’ve ever been front of house or on stage, you’ll know the sort of energy coming at you and through you.
As Dylan paradoxically observes in ‘my back pages’…
“Ah, but I was so much older then, I’m younger than that now.”
The buzz that Parmartha refers to comes from two dimensions:
1. Letting your guard down
2. Everyone you see is happy to see you (and hence you are happy to see them)
Never underestimate the power of No2. In some cults they called it ‘love-bombing’… we never called it that and we never did it so consciously but essentially that is what we did.
The transmission from a master has nothing to do with others being pleased to see you or not.
Although the “buzz” from a buddhafield is another kettle of fish, of course.
No SD, the transmission of the master has something to do with No1… Letting your guard down.
The guard you now have up.
The reason we feel good on mountain-tops or looking at a calm sea is because we can see all around us, feel safe, let the guard down and ‘unfocus’ both visually and mentally.
‘Transmission’ isn’t the correct term to convey what actually happens. Nothing is transferred from Him to you. In His presence, He is so big, He overwhelms you, so you defocus to take it all in and that puts you in the same state as when you are in love, or on some drugs which dilate the pupils.
We are slaves of our biology and our psychology. Most of Osho’s early lectures always started by Osho saying that man is a robot (robots were popular in the 60s).
Staying ‘visually unfocused’ is probably as powerful as Vipassana if not more so. And that is where ‘the remembering’ (that Fresch was talking about the other day) comes in. All right Fresch?
You’re arguing against nothing, Vartan, as “letting your guard down” is so obviously a pre-requisite it’s barely worth mentioning.
But essentially, tuning in to a master has nothing to do with others being pleased to see you, although yes, it’s nice to receive a pleasant greeting from someone, even if they don’t know you.
EG, one can go alone to a master’s public meeting/ discourse/satsang/gathering, know nobody there, perhaps feel a bit ‘out of place’, awkward, yet still experience a “transmission”, no problem. As you say, the energy is so strong that it awakens its reflection in us.
That’s true in my experience and, I’m sure, for others I know.
While on this topic…
Dominic, likening sitting with a master to the effect of being at a rock show is just too misplaced a comparison to be taken seriously.
One, notwithstanding any so-called “buzz”, is fundamentally about moving into inner silence, the other is about sending the audience into emotional excitation.
Even an advocate for the Devil can not fail to acknowledge this, surely?
Can only assume he hasn’t had experience of both. Who in the name of God would make such an absurd comparison if they had?
It depends on how you value your music. For many in the 3rd world modern ‘rock’ music was their first window into the meta-universe you are trying to describe.
Without the excitation first, there is no real silence afterwards.
That’s such specious nonsense, Vartan.
A load of pseudo-sannyas, pseudo-hip baloney.
How old are you?!
I don’t know – perhaps you’ve spent too much time in casinos…
Or maybe you’re on a ‘wind-up’ mission….
satyadeva says:
>> How old are you?!
I am way too old to worry about opposing points of view.
Attacking the messenger belittles the attacker and not the message.
>> Or maybe you’re on a ‘wind-up’ mission….
I am only trying to embarrass you.
On the contrary, Vartan, in this sort of context, where the ‘messenger’ is coming from is a significant element of the issue.
And your response, simply confirming what I’ve already said about you, further undermines your case.
First protocol car was running running running, then it could not.
Mechanics and engineer had a conferance. After a long discussion, finally they found out, someone has not used the petrol but kerosin oil.
Oshofield was designed and programmed to survive without its founder.The way birds fly and fishes will swim with or without the concept of God.
But if some asshole cuts the wings or bring the fish on the sand of the beach, both will lose their natural capacity.
shantam prem says:
>> Oshofield was designed and programmed to survive without its founder.
Never!!! The Oshofield was never designed. It spontaneously grew out of people not going home after the lectures. And none of the programs were written in stone. Osho was very specific about that. The ‘programs’ were put in place to facilitate the running of the various departments and were depending on many variables. It most definitely wasn’t designed to work without its founder, not in that format. The wastage during Osho’s life was phenomenal.
I really do not know who you are?
For this reason i am curious to see your face, may be i will remember you as someone seen during my years in Pune.
As far as i see, you are like one of those projects who were left uncomplete and therefore all the thoughts why it happened.
Don’t worry, most of us are in the same position!
For 10 years after Osho, things were moving as they should have been. Without collective responsibilty; it surely is not possible, specially, when the CEO has dig a sound proof bunker in a foreign country.
Moi about a month ago, slightly inebriated. I was never in Pune. We don’t know each other.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v83/abraxas/moi2_zps989dc310.jpg
Osho said that some of the best stories are left unfinished. I am not looking for conclusion, only for next chapter. What was, is only for the history books. What will be, might come from what is, or it might come from a new direction… and that is what we are here to find out.
BV looking like a boozy Nigel Farage UKIP candidate.
Gets my vote!
http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1521974.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/UKIP%20leader%20Nigel%20Farage-1521974
I’ve been told I look like Martin Landau. I always thought I looked like me.
From one Greek to another,
nice pic!
Heraclitus is one of my absolute favourites. He was my No1 for a long time. I see you use his name. I use Themis sometimes. Themis is a type of zeitgeist that people acquire when they congregate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themis
Shantypants declares, ‘As far as i see, you are like one of those projects who were left uncomplete and therefore all the thoughts why it happened.
Such conceptual thinking is flawed bcause it implies that there is something to be completed and there exists no such thing. Shantypants is talking as if we are all on some kind of production line, the end product enlightenment in the Buddha factory. This is fortunately not the case. Life is not like man in terms of goal orientation. It is an organic ongoing process, cyclical by nature there is no beginning or end…only constant change. We exist as part of that.
Shantypants concludes, ‘Don’t worry, most of us are in the same position!
I for one am not in the least worried about being part of such a limited world view, because it is absolute nonsense. There is no such position. The Chuddie King simply believes what his mind dictates, which leaves him looking like he is positioned in the back seats of a spiritual kindergarten.
>> Such conceptual thinking is flawed bcause it implies that there is something to be completed and there exists no such thing.
That is funny Lokesh because I wrote the reply to Shants before I read your entry…
Having said that I also feel that we are part of some (dodgy) Buddha factory… now that you put it that way.
There is no Buddha factory, dodgy or otherwise. From what I gather I can only presume that the soil can be tilled in preperation for enlightenment to happen. It is not something to be thought overmuch about, beause enlightenment by its very nature is beyond mental conceptions. Best enjoy the dance of life and get on with it.
Am I a pessimystic?
Were there ever worse odds to be had, than the odds of getting enlightened?
Buddhas look like dodgy fat butterballs with toxic waists.
I don’t want to gain any more pounds thank you!
http://www.imagebrowse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/buddha-wallpaper-surprising-fat-buddha-wallpapers-wallpaper.jpg
The big bellies of the Japanese buddha statues are pointers towards the hara as the place from where to watch the life-force in action (breath) during meditation … and has absolutely nothing to do with being overweight.
I suggest you read this:
http://www.oshoworld.com/meditation/meditations.asp?news_id=vipassana
That’s a pudgy pointer then.
By the year 2040 it’s reckoned that half the people in the uk are going to be erm… buddhas.
We must tell the NHS this important news.
Thx I read osho’s theory. Conversely the logic implies that indian buddhas ought to have enormous snouts, but they don’t.
I think it was a case of too much peking duck and second desserts in china for the buddha, or simply that fat was thought beautiful, as in polynesia.
Adds a new meaning to the eight-folds path.
This is also an image of buddha. You are being selective, in your selections.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v83/abraxas/b2a_zpsbf5b2476.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v83/abraxas/b3a_zps50c6193c.jpg
The reason poor-people’s food makes them fat is because it does not contain enough nutrients so they have to eat more of it.
Proves my point.
Happy Buddhas are always fat though they don’t look poor.
Auschwitz Buddhas are fast-tracking themselves off the wheel of samsara.
Poor people in India are not fat, the rich are.
In this country, there aren’t too many poor poor people, just dumb ones making the wrong dietary choices.
Burgers, chicken nuggets and kebabs instead of vegetables.
Obesity now an epidemic in the west, starting at a very early age.
I am addicted to gurus. The latest one is called Cesar Millan he has reached through a unique path. I would be interested in your comments??
Woof! Woof! (wagging my tail)
You know, Sannyas was a bit like a pack of dogs with a strong leader.
Lots of womanisers, bitches, mounting, submission training, just ‘sitting’, fetching, chasing, panting, howling, digging, playing games, slobbering, rolling over and being tickled, chewing, licking, guarding, sniffing, hairiness, wearing a collar, chasing your tail, pooping…
with lots of separation anxiety now that the owner has gone…
Oooooooooooooooowhoo!!
“Yes, I give electric shocks and use spike chokers… but I’m NOT cruel, says Hollywood’s favourite guru Cesar Millan
Charges £60,000 for controversial methods, including electric shocks
Hollywood fans of Millan include Scarlett Johansson and Charlize Theron”
Wow!!!
Gurus – like Osho or Lenin, were giants, at their time and contribution. Same with russian revolution and sanyas – expansion, then (!). Now only deterioration. Time to let go and actually run. New things happen else where.
Dom, lokeshji is the formal animal whisperer..
aahhhh dominic
you won t believe ist
it meant F***ing s t u p i d -
but that was yesterday and
we all are
aren t we ?
sometimes
yet – you are special in hiding it most of the times -
madhu
Me stoopid? True I don’t believe it. That’s mad(hu)ness!
Dom, pls do not let me down now. Kumare is soap..Any other film or a book, documentary to express your self?
Well, my earlier link for ‘stripping the gurus’ is a good free book and antidote for guru naiveté.
Guruphiliac & Chi-ting facebook/websites for shameless and satirical gossip.
Amma is the latest takedown, ‘holy hell’ book (amazon).
Religulous movie looks at the silliness of religion by bill maher 2008.
http://youtu.be/E2zhlDbMfDg
If Guruphiliac you will like…
http://www.cultnews.net/
Laugh a minute. Updated regularly too.
My question is who is the Sannyas pack leader now that Osho has left his body? Is it the OIF, or Tapoban etc. Having read the posts on this site there is a lot of aggression and fear biting going on.
To me Osho’s energy was the dominant force that held us all in submission to his will. Cesar states that dogs live in the here and now, no past or future (sound familiar).
Cesar works with the energy of both his clients, both humans and dogs. He states he ‘trains humans and rehabilitates dogs’. His methods are very similar to Osho’s ‘Active Meditations’. First you must exhaust all that pent up and frustrated energy (sound familiar) and only then can the real rehabilitation (meditation) begin.
I think that the master Gurdjieff stated that dogs and horses are the closest species to man spiritually in the animal kingdom. Certainly both dogs and man are predators.
Cesar is the modern equivalent of the enlightened barman referred to in a previous post.
There is some similarity between writers of oshonews and sannyasnews.
Here people have lost the capacity to make love but there is no urological problem.
There people have one extra advantage, They use the fingers to tickle.
But real love with all the components and shadow effects are lost in the jungle of words.
New men and new women project is ditched. As collective we project ourselves as Consultants to the world.
Only problem is world simply passes by ignoring the wise byts.
None of this rings true for me Dom, believe it or not! Transmission happens, and it is often a very private affair, nothing to do with a feel good factor similar to an Arsenal football crowd! Perhaps you never felt it? A single photograph can bring it back for me.
Also I remember Paritosh (Sam), the author of Life of Osho doing some simple arithmetic before he died, and reckoned there were about 98 illuminated sannyasins, direct from the Osho stable, and probably another 100 who choose to remain undeclared.
You do seem very condemnatory, and dont seem to see much “good” coming out of sannyas which seems to me a strange opinion.
Do you consider you gained nothing from Osho? Also in a thought experiment had you never met him, or been involved with his Buddhafield, do you feel your life in some way would have been “better”?
I think Dom is playing devil’s advocate because he likes playing devil’s advocate.
Well, I think Dom’s not playing devil’s advocate at all, I think he believes all he says here.
At least, he does ‘on the surface’, but, ‘deep down’, I wouldn’t be too sure….
http://theord.com/comics/2010-11-15-Devils-Advocate.png
Ok, I use electric shocks and spike chokers but I’m NOT cruel.
Unless it’s cruel, to be kind.
Devil’s avocado is yummy, though it can also be expressed by bigging up the greeks again…
“Dialectic is a method of argument for resolving disagreement that has been central to European and Indian philosophy since antiquity. The word dialectic originated in ancient Greece, and was made popular by Plato in the Socratic dialogues. The dialectical method is discourse between two or more people holding different points of view about a subject, who wish to establish the truth of the matter guided by reasoned arguments.”
I can dream can’t I?
As you dug up the greeks… diabolos, the devil, is one who has diabouli, two-minds (or a split mind)… shall I carry on?
You see, the problem with dialectics is that they require disagreements in order to function…
And the problem with ‘us’ is that we don’t disagree with each other enough to make the dialectic interesting…
No it isn’t.
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
Agreed that is “simple arithmetic” based on er.. what exactly?
Some ‘E’ meter readings (like the scientologists)?
I wonder how many osho would have accredited.
I’m not denying your individual experience of ‘transmission’, and it is claimed for all gurus and their devotees as part of the package.
How has it impacted your life?
I don’t have any control over how you interpret my posts, but I don’t feel it represents what I’ve been saying.
“Thought experiment”…What if…? That is an unanswerable question.
dominic says:
>> How has it impacted your life?
It gives you more information about yourself than you had before and therefore you will respond differently to (the same) stimuli.
I have no idea how or who, I would be like, without my metaphysical studies but I doubt I would be the same as now.
It’s a sort-of, this plus.
or
This +
An enhancement instead of therapy. Though many saw it as therapy.
In other words, like every other experience in life.
Shakti’s not really about information and metaphysical studies Mr. Egghead.
More about transformation and ‘divine opening’, though some may equate getting a good ‘buzz’ to the same.
Of course it would be easier if you knew what you were talking about instead of repeating other people’s words.
Everything is information, including you (and your shakti).
You doubt my shiva-shakti? As you like.
Socratic method be damned.
I only doubt when you use words like “transformation” and “divine opening”…
What happened to “This is it” and as for, “divine opening” I am just not going there. I need to see it first. I prefer Parmartha’s “translucent darkness”. Nothing personal.
dear parmartha (2. february at 11.14 pm)
i am quite often here reminded of a story, a parable – being told to us while sitting in a caravanserai alife
the story goes about a village idiot who was thoroughly depressed about the mob mocking him and harassing him
when the crowd had been listening to masters coming by and adoring them for their lectures of know-l-abilities he simply felt his inferior complex symptoms paining
the story goes that someone with compassion as well as being into mischievous games came by and recommended to the village idiot that he should appear at the gatherings challenging the so called pundits by screaming out ever and ever again
WHERE IS YOUR PROOF ?
the story goes that it didn t took long
that being a village idiot was yesterday s and he himself became a famous man adored by the masses himself
we all sat in awe listening to THIS at the time being -
and it s a story not at all down-dated
isn t it ?
and it is pointing to the uncomfortable truth s also why negativity and fights and being in a kind of war and combatant zone
attracts more people as the opposite s
the so called spiritual realms are not so different from the material realms as we may like to see it
as well as the seemingly cheer-leaders of such dynamic are more a symptom
giving each and everybody the chance to look deep inside to investigate whom is given energy and whom not and why that happens
the answer to that is very individual
as i see it
and many individuals can make a crowd
OR NOT
it s up to us
isn t it ?
a good morning for everybody
and may we all have a good day -
madhu
Madhu
I’m sure Chekhov wrote a short story on the idiot theme, which I’m sure I’ve read, but I cant recall the title.
(Not referring to The Idiot by Dostoyevsky.)
My bad.
Turganev. The Fool
I have often told a story of Turgenev’s, THE FOOL. In a village, a young man is very much disturbed
because the whole village thinks he is an idiot. A wise man is passing through the village and the young man goes to him and says, “Help me! For twenty-four hours a day I am criticized; whatever I do I am criticized. If I don’t do anything I am criticized. If I speak I am criticized, if I don’t speak I am criticized. I don’t know any way out.”
The wise man said, “Don’t be worried….” He whispered the secret in his ear, and told him, “After one month I will come back. Meet me then and tell me how things are going.” The young man went to the marketplace and started working on the formula given by the wise man. Somebody said, “What a beautiful sunset!” And he said, “What is beautiful in it? Prove what is beautiful in it!”
The man who had said it was a beautiful sunset was shocked. It was a beautiful sunset, but what was the proof? Is there any evidence? Do you know what beauty is? Everybody knows, but nobody can prove it.
The man remained silent. Everybody started laughing. And everybody said, “Strange, we used to think this man was an idiot. He is a great intellectual.” This was the formula given by the old man: criticize anything; just roam about the village watching and when anybody says anything, does anything, criticize it. And particularly criticize things which are taken for granted and nobody questions. Somebody uses the word `God’ — immediately catch hold of him: “Where is God? What nonsense are you talking about?” Somebody talks about love — catch hold of him: “What is love? Where is love? Put it here in front of everybody!” Somebody would say, “Love is in the heart.”
And he would say, “No, there is nothing in the heart. You can go and ask any surgeon — in the heart
there is nothing like love. There is only a blood-circulating system which just pumps blood and purifies it. What does it have to do with love?”
After one month the old man came back. By that time the idiot had become a wise man. He touched the old man’s feet and he said, “You are great! That trick worked; now the whole village thinks I am a wise man.” The old man said, “Just remember one thing: don’t assert anything from your side, so nobody can criticize you. Let them assert things; you just criticize and complain. And always be aggressive, never be defensive. Don’t take a defensive attitude. Attack, be aggressive, criticize each and everybody, and they will all worship you.” And the idiot becomes the wise man.
It does not need much intelligence to criticize or to complain. And cheaply you become wise; cheaply you become very intelligent.
Osho.
Beyond Enlightenment
Chapter #19
Chapter title: The future belongs to the creative man
In the above story chosen by Mr.Cut and paste, Arpana has described his own self!
Another offering from Shantams infinite, infinite drivel series
The problem with realised people, in the blaze of ordinary publicity, is what Dionysius, a Bishop of Athens, but somehow escaping the wrath of the Church with his mystical notions, alluded to.
The realised are not about goodness and “light”. Dionysius continuously speaks in his works of them being beyond normal concepts of “light”, they are of the realms of “translucent darkness”. Translucent darkness inevitably gets misunderstood unless you are part of it oneself.
In ‘Fritz Peters. My Journey With A Mystic.’ Gurdjieff comes across as a man who behaves in a way that Christians call good on the one hand, but equally at times in a way that Christians consider to be immorally, and he could move backwards and forwards fluidly across that spectrum.
I am assuming you are using the word “light” because it is in en”light”nment.
Before there were “light religions” (i.e. solar) there were “moon religions”. Islam is a moon religion. Mohammed in his wisdom, did not invent the faith from scratch. He brought in a lot from the old religion in his area of operation.
It is difficult to speak of the “light” itself because it is meaningless until it hits something. It is also difficult to speak of enlightenment because it may refer to something like (the Japanese) ‘satori’, or (the Greek) ‘understanding’ [not knowing but 'understanding], or what is commonly known in the west as a ‘mystical union’, where the divine and the human are operating in lockstep.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QltaQKg0UaE/UtX4lvMOZ6I/AAAAAAAAhgM/Qv7dvAcxWNs/s1600/540735_566795560061271_1828611801_n.jpg
Swami Albert says
As part of the.. erm ‘civil’ dialectic
an extract from an article on Gurdjieff.
“The truth hurts but it doesn’t kill. The lie pleases, but it doesn’t heal.”
“It is difficult with many ‘gurus’ to determine if they are honest and sincere in their lives and teachings. With Gurdjieff there is no such difficulty. He was a self-proclaimed liar and cheat who delighted in recalling, if nor embellishing, his successful criminal frauds. He was dictatorial, a heavy drinker, especially Armagnac, used opium and took full sexual (ab)use of his female disciples and fathered many children by them. He was a successful professional hypnotist. His personal habits could be disgustingly dirty and he quarrelled and broke with all his major male disciples.”
Want to read more?
http://www.prem-rawat-bio.org/gurus/gurdjieff.htm
*James Webb, a seeker, wrote an Exhaustive biography of Gurdjieff and history of his work and followers, ‘the Harmonious Circle’. Then shot himself through the head with a shotgun.
But don’t shoot me I’m just the messenger!
Interesting.
My own infallible source of information on Gurdgieff doesn’t paint such a glass is 99% empty picture of the man.
Given I never knew the man, it’s my infallibility vs yours.
Like everything, one does the research, weighs up the evidence… then it’s handbags at dawn.
Dom, Crowley wasn’t too dissimilar. To my mind Osho was a saint when compared to G or C. The ones close to Osho knew a lot more than was in the public domain, but even at his worst he cannot be compared to either of those two.
The name of the game is as attempt to show that enlightenment is, do as I say, not as I do… when really is, do as I do, and not as I say. Basically, you are on your own, and those are just fingers pointing and because they are pointing, one doesn’t have to blindly go in that direction.
In the west, Just like Yoga, Meditation too is getting free from the hands of bearded holymen from India. “Six weeks in India girls” are the new teachers and ambassdors of meditation and accesssories.
It is like India’s butter chicken will be cooked without butter and without curry!
Chairs and Radiohead Varti. At last a bit of sense out of you.
See below.
My special chair, but not leather.
I remain unconvinced by many of the posts here about the “characters” of teachers and gurus. I cannot help thinking some of the judgements come from the middle class puritan Boy Scout movement , the sort of moralities that uphold many nation states and their bellicose intentions towards others.
Here is a story related by Anthony Storr, a psychiatrist who was notoriously anti guru, about Gurdjieff, but which in my eyes only show the deeper layers of insight Gurdjieff was employing.
The fact that he was a “survivor” is also a plus in my view, though not in Storr’s. Being born in Armenia in the 1860′s was no joke, using every inch of one’s brain to survive does not give the man a black mark in my book.
Okay then, over to Anthony Storr:
“Fritz Peters (someone who as a boy was brought up in Gurdjieff’s commune) recalled an occasion on which a rich English lady approached Gurdjieff as he was sitting at a Parisian cafe table and offered him a cheque for £1,000 – if he would tell her ‘the secret of life’.
Gurdjieff promptly summoned a well-known prostitute from her beat in front of the cafe, gave her a drink, and proceeded to tell her that he was a being from another planet called Karatas. He complained that it was very expensive to have the food he needed flown in from this planet, but urged the prostitute to taste some which he gave her.
When asked what she made of it, she replied that he had given her cherries, and went on her way with the money Gurdjieff pressed upon her, obviously believing that he was mad. Gurdjieff turned to the English lady and said: ‘That is the secret of life.’
She appeared to be disgusted, called him a charlatan, and went off. However, she reappeared later on the same day, gave Gurdjieff the cheque for £1,000, and became a devoted follower.”
>> if he would tell her ‘the secret of life’.
A stupid question always deserves a stupid answer. I’d love to know the rich English lady’s ‘mind process’ that brought her back… I wonder if she saw the connection between herself and the prostitute? Probably not. Was there a connection? It would also be interesting to know how GG treated her afterwards, and what happened to her.