Banned Forever: The Layers of the Onion
Last December (2008), in a totally spontaneous movement (here in New York), I picked up the phone and made a reservation to fly to India. I had enough miles for a free ticket. I then emailed the Osho Guest House to make a reservation. There was no problem. Two or three weeks later I left for India and arrived at the Guest House on January 14. Next morning, I went to the ‘Welcome Centre’, got my gate pass, and there I was in the Resort. I had not been there since 2005. I immediately ran into old friends, hugs and hugs. The Resort felt nice, but to me lacked the energy of the rebellious spirit.
As I was talking to an old friend, I was approached and asked to go to Krishna House at 3 pm, if I was available. Of course I was; I had nothing else to do. I certainly felt the energy of this person, which was not friendly. I knew what was coming. What else could it be? I already knew that some people who ran meditation centres were banned because they would not sign what was called the “Letter of Understanding”. This document was supposedly about Osho International Foundation, a corporation in Zurich, having the right to control Osho’s meditation centres. I went to the office at 3 pm. The Resort official there made a phone call to the West and asked, “What am I to tell Priya?” The answer was, “She is banned forever.” Then I was given the phone, and in a very loud and angry voice the person on the other end said, “How many times have I told you in New York that you are banned?” That really got me angry, and I screamed back, something like, “That’s not true at all.” I had been invited to lunch in an attempt to convince me to sign the Letter of Understanding, and that was the only time I saw this person in New York. I then said I didn’t want to waste any more of my energy with this ridiculous talk. I said, “I’m banned, and that’s it,” and handed the phone to the Resort official.
Perhaps because I was able to express this anger very specifically at the moment, it helped me to immediately feel freer than ever. I felt free of the Resort and soon began to see the subtle ways of compromise – the things we do or don’t do, not easily detected, in order to avoid upsetting the apple cart.
Also, Osho works in mysterious ways, and I feel He has removed much of our seriousness without us even noticing. “Banned forever” – what does that mean? Osho has given new meaning to words having to do with the measurement of time, such as “soon” or “never.” He would say, “Come now, soon I will be gone.” Years later He was still there, but soon He was gone.
Then there’s the famous story of the young man at his first darshan who told Osho he was going to stay forever, and Osho said, “Next time, you stay a little longer.” There also He took away the seriousness.
I hadn’t really unpacked yet, so it was easy to move over to the Surya Villa Hotel. I then found out that on that day, the Times of India carried the story that Osho International Foundation had lost the US trademark case. I have been running the Osho Padma Meditation Centre in New York since 1987, and I find it quite mysterious that I was there at that moment.
As I was hanging out at the restaurant at the hotel, someone gave me a book, Love Song for Osho by Ma Anand Devika. What a perfect gift at the perfect moment! If I needed a reminder that the only thing that matters is the love affair with the Master, there it was. The book is pure innocence. I got together with Devika, and she is still the embodiment of innocence. I am so grateful to beloved Devika for exposing herself so totally in her book. The energy and the love I felt from the book somehow came right into the experience of being banned.
I felt I wanted to share this experience. As time passed, I received quite a few emails, even from people I don’t know. I saw that most of the attention was directed at “them” – the ones who ban. And that was not my focus. I was watching myself and what was going on inside me. I told people I don’t care about “them”. I only care about myself and my own inner journey. It’s so easy to forget that this is about the inner journey.
A couple of days after feeling free of the Resort, I suddenly had this sensation in my body of feeling free of Osho in the body. It was as if His body fell away from me – not the Master, but the body of Osho. This was an amazing feeling, impossible to describe. Then, a day or two later, I had the sensation in my body that desire itself had fallen away. Soon I saw that desire was contained in my attachment to Osho’s body. I remember hearing Him tell us to put all our desires on to Him. I had never realized that that’s what had happened, and once free of His body, I was free of desire.
Now, I had to see what that meant to me. How did this feel? What I found, and continue to find, is that I do whatever I’ve been doing, but somehow in a more relaxed way. And I see that relaxation is possible only when we are free of judgment.
A friend said that some people are now going to ask, “Do you think you’re enlightened?” I know nothing about enlightenment. I have only hoped to be free of judgments and to be more loving, more aware of what I am doing, to live totally courageously.
I find myself actually grateful to the organization that runs the Resort. No matter who was in charge, throughout my almost 35 years of sannyas, I never really felt accepted. Somewhere I always wanted to be accepted, even though I did not make any effort to please. I am now freed of that burden. I feel that for quite a while I was trying to believe that there was an Osho place where I could go. But the Osho place is right here. Now, the Resort, as an authority, has really ceased to exist for me, and only the love affair with the Master remains.
Satya Priya
The experiences you describe are specific. I respect what you have gone through , But should we take these kind of experiences as kind of ‘ destined to happen’ ?
My concern is if every sannyasin who was close to Osho drops out like this ( I honestly dont know whether to take this as something Osho is doing to you ) then what about PUNE and Buddhafield?
I am not saying all the old sannyasins who were close to Osho should compromise on self respect or dignity..
But it is difficult for people like me who was not with Osho but in extreme love with Him and His teachings and who would like to see PUNE continue to being a Energy field , to see that one by one all the old sannyasins moving away and explaining to themselves that this is what is supposed to happen..
I honestly dont know what more to say ..
With Love
Kranti
If all the old sannyasins simply accept and let go of PUNE how do we interpret this?
Is this really a LET GO which they should go through?
Is this something which is specific to individual sannyasins and life ( Osho ) is making this happen to remove their attachment ?
OR
Should these people come together and discuss to keep the Buddhafield intact ?
And most of the banning is related to the way a particular Osho center is being run or a copyright issue.. Is this something so complicated that it can not be discussed lovingly by all the involved sannyasins ?
And what is so bad about that letter of Understanding? which everyone is not ready to accept?
Just dropping away without doing anything about Osho’s place
It need not be confrontaion with Pune.. That is not what Osho taught us..it can be sorted out of LOVE..
OR
All these old sannyasins were somehow carrying PUNE as a burden in their heart and now feel relieved to let go? ( forgive me for this last assumption )
Hey Kranti,
Pune is great and all, but comman dude, why make into a Mecca? Osho himself left Pune to set a commune up in the USA and the travelled accross the world for any other place BUT Pune. Eventually Osho was back in Pune, but due to the infrastructure already built, and other countries banning him entry.
So even I haven’t been with Osho in his physical body but I dont confine myself to think anyone who was around Osho has some special authority. Go with your own flow and feel the energy where you are.
I’m in Canada here and am working to create beautiful spaces for meditation. I can tell you this, I’ve been to Pune too, but I still feel the same energy in these “meditation centers” or meditation events.
I don’t think Priya is “dropping” out, I think she’s dropping being fixated to Pune and Osho’s physical body (ashes) in Pune. She is continiuing her love in now a different dimension beyond a physical area on a map.
There’s really no tension buddy, Pune’s just another meditation center to me. Ofcourse Osho was there in the body for a while, but he was in Oregon too. He was in Europe, he was in Nepal. In fact he’s in his pictures, his lectures, his videps: RAW. There’s no bible or scripture needed to transcribe his message. And in all these things, his energy is available.
Let’s have this planet as an eneryfield instead of poor old Pune.
Thank you Amrito
You sound very beautiful..Let what you said sink in me.. I should be Ok..
With Love to all..
Kranti
Just happened to read a reflection of Satya Priya on her web page about Pune.. For someone who felt like this now getting banned..Unbelievable..
” This Osho Buddhafield, the likes of which exists nowhere on this suffering planet, is awesome. To be in the auditorium with hundreds and hundreds of men and women in beautiful white robes, dancing wildly, dancing as they never have before; meditating, listening to Osho on video, laughing at the jokes he reads so carefully, to see them walking across the bridge on the way out of the auditorium and the reflections of the white robes on the water in the darkness of night, sends me totally inside. The beauty is so all-encompassing, I can only go in “
And this is awesome ..from the same refelction..last paragraph
” Perhaps even more mind-boggling are the hundreds of thousands who have been here and are now stuck in their judgments about the way the resort is being run, thinking they could do it better. Has anyone ever done anything without someone thinking they could do it better? “
Yes, Kranti, it does seem that Ma Satya Priya has some quite paradoxical and contradictory energy vectors in play here. Quite odd.
Andreas, your insight is needed.
There is a story around Gautam Buddha. He asked one of his disciple, ” If you go to that village, people there will kill you.”
Disciple replied” No, they won’t kill me. They will make me free from the body.”
Does it mean, there is no need to develop the criminal legal system…
To be fair to her she did talk about accepting change without resistance in that refelction.
But i also see condemnation or judgement about others who are not happy about Pune.. when things were going well for her
But if she is able to accept what has happned to her now with Love ..She is really great..
Like I said:
I would never join a club that would accept me as a member.
And again that doesnt change my opinion about whether all these old sannyasins should walk away from the bhuddha field at the first given opportunity shouting ‘ Hey Let Go ( escape ) ‘… ..No.
but who is ever consistent?
it just shows honesty. If we were to write down our thoughts and feelings everymonth and expect it to remain consistent about everything, thats absolutely insane!
things change with life and experiences, and she is simply unfolding another page of her life. i think everyone has been in alot of confusion about what’s happening in pune.
you can’t help at one point to feel they “have to be right” because they were so “close” to osho. really that’s bullshit.
but hey. atleast its not a run-down resort controlled by dictictators. its a rich-resort full of luxury controlled by dictators, there’s a difference y’know. I prefer the latter.
and kranti, don’t mind if i do but: to hell with “old” sannyasins! There’s no old or new, sannyasins come and go, and I don’t think “old” sannyasins will like being called old.
time dont matta.
peace.bro.
I am sure for Amrito in Canada, Pune chapter does not matter this way or that way. he is creating enough juice by being in the company of Swami Arun.
As one sees in life in all the organisations, many people get their motivation or hits from the second rug third rug leaders.
But for Kranti it seems a different situation. At work may be has to deal with the managers or team or shift incharge but itn the world of Osho he is ambitious/motivated/qualified enough to have the longing to deal directly with the BOSS.
Hello again. I was in pune this winter when satya priya was banned. i talked to vatayana about it she told me that she had signed a letter with friends of osho that finally lead to the loss of copyright in USA.. So when she showed up. she was banned.
Nothing new or old. the same thing always happened. When osho was alive no one questioned this policy because osho might have known better than everybody else. but This was happening all the time. I was part of it when i worked in the welcome center. Trouble makers were always thrown out. and always there was protest about. except when osho was alive… then everybody just surrendered… or else…
I never liked the policy myself
Now Osho is gone , se we question about that. But he started the tread.
Satya Priya,
I appreciate your training as a sannyasin to take every adverse situaion as a stepping stone.
Years before at the door of English Osho Times at Mirdad, someone has glued a quotation,” I am looking for the blessings which does not come in disguise.”
The question is whether there are some social, moral, ethical and spiritual norms exist in the world of Osho or not.?
Is there any need for summary execution? Has the executionar offered you a sannyas Hug, beofre pronouncing the judgement. cann^t you write the names of the hunchman,,,just for the sake of history.
“We decide, you follow” attitude, Whether Osho of these people has got a residence permit in North Korea, Burma or Iran?…
so let us sing the famous heart dance song in a relevant way, “Leela leela life is just a play. We are the kings and you are the slave. ha ha ha hahaha…”
Anthony, after reading your comment i remember a old newspaper ad where the Parle Krackjack Biscuit addresses the copy cats,” Just be wearing hat and holding a stick, one does not become a magician!”
As far as I know, Anthony, OIF has lost the “trademark” point of the word “osho” in the US courts, not the copyright as you state in your post. These two things, as Ma Sangeet has slowly and clearly explained in the previous thread of a few months ago on this issue, are separate areas of contention.
The ‘copyright’ thing is huge. It covers the legal rights of ownership of all of Osho’s works being published–books, tapes, mp3′s, videos, CD’s, DVD’s, photos, ‘the whole 9 yards’, as we say in the US.
It looks like Osho Friends is contesting this too, but exactly how, is not known. They say the Osho International people have never produced any documentation proving their legal copyright ownership of Osho’s talks and images. But OIF gets YouTube to take down any Osho material in a few days, so at least they have convinced YouTube on this subject. How, is unknown. Did they produce documents to YouTube to verify their claim? Unknown.
What Ma Priya’s involvement in all of this is — whether the trademark or copyright disputes — is a little vague here. But, hell, she seems to be happy with it all, being banned, she’s taken some kind of a jump in her spiritual evolution, so who’s to complain…
The Resort gets to flex some muscle on the global stage, Priya gets to have a new found freedom, and we here at sannyasnews get to have a fresh subject to hash over, instead of dragging out that last Michael Jackson thread, which was really wearing thin fast….It’s a win/win/win situation.
sorry i meant the trademark… not copyright
Just Imagine Bob we all meet at the welcome centre. When we are just in the middle of the customery hugs, few of us are taken aside and told, ” because of your nonsense at sannaysnews.com, you are banned. Rest have got aids test negative, please take your gate pass. Enjoy your stay at resort.”
That is it. Few go in, few go out.
My question is will the fellow gate pass holders will have the guts to show a solidarity with the banned ones. After all a bond of freindliness has developed in all these weeks.
Man. I would meet with you in the German bakery for a carrot juice… but I´ll stay inside.
As I have said before this is not new. It is part of the history of the movement…And Osho was the one who started the policy
I am refused entry.
love from Swami.
Shantam you say:
“I am sure for Amrito in Canada, Pune chapter does not matter this way or that way. he is creating enough juice by being in the company of Swami Arun.”
You are hilarious Shantam with this grudge you got against Sw. Arun. Don’t worry he won’t steal your customers away from Germany in the Astro industry! He’s not into selling spirituality or meditation, its more doing what Osho has instructed him to do form beginning: open meditation centers.
Third rug leader, not connected to the BOSS directly?? Your arrogance is huge my friend!!
You seem more like a competetor in the guru market yourself with these ignorant assumptions. People are attracted to Osho and those whom are doing Osho;s work. So to some its Osho Tapoban, to some its Pune, to some its Osho Nisarga. So lets not play the game of ‘holier-than-thou i’m directly connected to osho’ shit.
Its all Osho my friend, and no guru.
Shantam
You say ” My question is will the fellow gate pass holders will have the guts to show a solidarity with the banned ones. After all a bond of freindliness has developed in all these weeks. ”
If few of us who started sharing thoughts in forum but have not met each other can be expected to be matured enough and friendly to show solidarity what about all those guys who ived so close to Osho day in , day out talking all the time about LOVE , Surrender , Egolessness and who hugged each other evrey 30 minutes.. What kind of solidarity those guys are showing now..?
Everyone wants to run their own centres… Increasignly i see the problem is in the people who leave pune at the first given opportunity not the pune management..
May be we need to take a re look at the way we think and share thoughts here.. Problem may be somehwre else and we keep focusing on pune management,,
May be we need to list out the names of the guys who were banned and see the reasons..It may give a completely different picture altogether
As people who love Osho we should not be worried about thinking differently.. We dont have to go with the masses and think if someone is getting banned then show sympathy at that person and get angry at the pune management.. Thats will be voting for popularity like elections.
Not sure..This is just my opinion and trying to see from both sides now rather than assuming
( the word ‘ old sannyasins’ ..is only used to indicate positively about people who lived with Osho in body..not in negative sense )
Just a fact about me.
Though for two years i have not been to Pune and left the ashram with folded hands for a life without the ashram.
15 years of emotional connection, my secured space in the institution; in between world has developed immensely beautiful, my professional qualifications have gone useless in between, it was quite scary. it is like stoping the psycosomatic medicines for years and one must reduce the dose graduaily.
Now i can say, i don’t need that place, neither for meditation nor for relationship. Because i don’t need so i have no obligation to shrink my inner.
Also i know how much miracles can happen in the inner world with the complete package left by Osho.
I am adamnet, i am motivated for the restoration of this complete package. I owe this to that dead man,who i call master and to the integrity of the human values. And i think this is the inner state of many of us.
One thing i can say for sure, it plays no role how physically close you were with Osho.Before going to Pune for indefinate period, i was in awe with all those seekers who left the world for search of truth, and here in my time these westerns were the motivating force..they leave their high paid jobs to hang around on the rented bicycles in Pune.
Now if i have to write a book about the mastre disciple thing, the title will be,” Even Blow jobs won’t work with the Master…” (though master will receive them with grace and compassion)
Amrito,
I may have the satarical tone for Swami Arun but 0% malefic intention.
First of all my thinking is that once in a while business English is a better idea to use in the religious contents.
As in every institution dealing with more than one person,second third, fourth fifth rug leadership is inevitable.
In the world of Osho, Dr. Amrito, Jayesh, Keerti, Arun etc. come in this catagory. All are singing their version of the lead song.
It is very natural for those who did not came in contact with Osho in His life time to find someone who was blessed with His energy or touch.
it gives cozy feeling, a warmth, journey becomes less boring.
For the first generation sannyasin, all the above names and others are brothers, one cannot impose father feeling on them. It is like students of the same batch cannot be your teacher.
It is a amazing. I have seen in Pune at the satsang of the awakened sannyasins those people who were living in Osho Lau Tzu for years. There are also they were Asking questions. For me this is Incest!
So without hesitation i will say, i have the sibling rivalery in me. If i don’t have i will doubt my natural state.
I was the only son, sister came late. so it was a right environment with Osho to find so many brothers from all over the world.
One thing is sure, sibling rivalery is healthy but to ban your brothers from the family home is ugly. Being an Indian i will touch the feet of my elders, but being a sannyasin i will poke the fun too. So meets east and the west.
One question for You Amrtio, if someone spits his venom on Osho or on Arun….where it will hurt more. It is a sincere psychological curiosity.
Anthony you have written-
As I have said before this is not new. It is part of the history of the movement…And Osho was the one who started the policy.
Osho started 20 other things too, they were thrown in the garbage bin.
The fact is Matser was peeling the Orange. The cover skin(what is the technical name?) was removed , orange pieces were used for eating or making the juice.
The disciple managers are doing the same but in the reverse order. They are throwing the fruit and keeping the skin.
I am sure people are there to buy the orange skin too. It makes good facial!
Kranti
I am suremany of us know these sayings
,” Elephant has two set of teeth, One is for showing, another for eating.”
” There is always darkness under the Lamp.”
“This house got burnt with the lamp of this house
” It is easier to preach than to learn
” Yes, we toss. I choose the head, but tail is also mine.”
In English ii is,” Might is right or boss is right.
Hindi version is,” Who has got the stick has the cow, woman and the power”
World of osho….nothing is covered with silk. you see all of them in Sauna. See the gentlemen without Hugo Boss suits. See the ladies without Victoria’s secret.
Osho has taken the illusions away or existance has ripped Off the illusions around Osho.
I will say the master who spend His whole teaching the freedom from mind has got a sweet punch from the Mind itself just few years after the death.
Game is not over yet, it has become interesting.
Yes, Osho started the thread! And yes, it was Osho who started the policy and it is part of the history of the movement since long.
Banning is a policy against individuals seen to be a threat to ones own power. Banning refuses someone to come back or to move freely. It is a means of censorship or discrimination by groups who have no understanding of democracy and an ill idea of man and freedom.
It is to get rid of an individual without any open exchange, thus avoiding any confrontation with ones own problems, failings or frailties. It is the methods of dictators and narcissistic personalities.
Banning was practized by communist, fascistic or apartheid regimes or by dogmatic religions like the christian church (excommunication) or by imperial powers to control their colonial territory. It is an expulsion of a person out of her familiar surroundings and is enforced in a authoritarian and compulsive way. It implies an unquestioned dictatorial concept of absolute authority and/or truth.
Psychologically banning refers to accusations, finger pointing, deprivation of familiar relationships, mass mockery, baiting etc. It is endangering and humiliating the individual, triggering it’s fears of survival.
Any system with such dictatorial means only survives as long as it is backuped by enough followers and power. It is discrediting itself. Like in any such system, those opportunist who back up such acts as banning or slander and do not oppose it, are partly responsible for such acts! And you can not expect any solidarity from them, they are cowards and arse-licker always out for their own little benefit.
Usually after the collaps of such systems the whole truth comes to light. Those involved actively or passively in all the injuries, later on usually claim to have been told to act like this or they did not know, thus declining any responsibility. But responsibility can never be declined by having been given order, by surrender, devotion, ignorance etc. Crowds and masses are made of opportunist. The opportunist are as responsible as the leaders. To me they are dangerous. They are the grave diggers of any living and authentic phononema.
Now within religions, sects or cults the psychological bindings usually tend to be utterly strong and followers tend to defend their believes at any circumstances. The inner need for safety in some cases may be even so strong, that they even defend or rationalise their own ban or as in other cases fight a live long fight against it.
If you leave yourself, like Shantam or me, it may be ” like stoping the psycosomatic medicines for years and one must reduce the dose graduaily”. But if you are banned it creates guilt and a tough situation for the person concerned. To rationalise being banned as a device to growth or anything of that kind psychologically is deeply related to feelings of inferiority and guilt. It also comes from a wrong understanding of freedom, self-actualization, self-esteem ect and from a long dependency. In fact attachment and binding of such kind easily creates split tendencies in the psyche. And that’s exactly what banning is about: To weaken the individual (in archaic times being expelled from your own group meant a death sentence).
Banning is an abuse within an abuse, because such systems have no legal foundation. They have no rights, no thought through system of sanctions which may be questioned legally in a court. They are just able to hurt you, to slam on you, to muck on you, to lapidate you.
When the individual is expelled, it is in a shaky state. It is alone, no justice possible. The facts are obvious, but as the dependency is massive, the consciousness tries to defend the ban because the whole idendity of the individual is on stake and may break down. It is a natural tendency of survival and a way to protect functional integrity. Somebody who invested a great deal of his life, worked for years even without income, someone who has put his live on stake is not able easily to admit the illusory quality of the dream to himself. It is a deprived state.
Integrity can not be gained back by suppression in the long run. It may take some time, but to regain integrity, the individual finally has to accept the facts of his live. Where feeling are real feelings, where absolute ideas and pretenders are gone but real friends are there. Where circumstances change all the time and you have to decide and live on your own. Where the freedom you have allowed somebody else to take away from you, for a alleged idea of enlightenment, love, god, a better world or whatsoever, is back.
Well, and what I learn here ? NEVER SIGN ANYTHING WITHOUT YOUR LAYWER !!! I am glad I did not sign it here in Thailand . And happy I follow my intuition not to visit the resort again. Just imagine , to go all the way to Puna for a much to expansive cappuccino with KP , just to be called in for a ‘friendly talk’ like this one ? Hahahahahahahahahaha…
PS ; So please stop your Invitations for cappuccino or anything . I got Star Bucks here that is enough …enough is enough .As the Master suggested : FORGIVE and FORGET ME . Freedom is a higher value than LOVE !
hi Andreas. I knew you would like my post.
My own understanding of the banning policy, as i have seen it worked, had different purposes.
In the old days when osho was alive, it was like being expelled from paradise. The punishment was to be far away from osho. the person who was expelled was expected to ” learn” from the act and understand his own process of growth through that. Once he decided to “behave” he could apologize and be let back in.
Other people were banned because Osho did not wanted them around his circus, like Indian Urmila. She was playing her own guru-trip and speaking badly against osho.
Or ex-sannyasins who were profiting from sannyas centers or communes.
The other people who were banned were mostly people who disrupted the place, either by calling themselves enlightened and wanting to have satsang inside the ashram, or they were harassing women, or they were heavily drugged or plain drug dealers or psychotic who were disturbing the place.
Usually if you were psychotic and rather harmless and quiet, they let you stay. like sw. rajneesh and others I have met.
Nowadays the policy works pretty much in the same way. satya priya was expelled as a punishment for her acts… so, no enjoyment in paradise. if she would apologize, write a letter in the viha connection asking for forgiveness… she might be let in again…but she will not do it.
other who are expelled are mostly trouble makers… those were the people I saw when i worked in the welcome center. crazy psychotics, drug addicts and drug dealers… and of course guys jumping on women.
Banning is bad in an ideal environment when everything else is FAIR & JUST.
What recourse an organization or an entity has when an individual misbehaves? Legal recourse is not practical for every single incident..
Whether banning is bad or good is based on context
What about others who will be harned if an individual is not banned?
Allowing a free run saying banning is bad is not fair and just for other individuals..
May be in this context Osho could have stopped ( banned ) Sheela earlier because it was affecting other which is not fair.. But He was dealing with the issue of enlightenment where troubles created by Sheela were also used as a tool to grow / transform individuals..
So banning need NOT be bad if it is done for right reasons or to protect other individuals who may be harmed by a specific individual if he is not banned
But in the hands of someone like Osho banning or not banning itself becomes a tool to transform a specific individual or group of people…ALCHEMY..Besar metal turning to gold..
Anthony.. belivee it not.. Few hours ago i wrote a post saying my thoughts are more in alignment with your thoughts on certain issues.. But i didnt post that message due to some reason..
Now see what you have written and what i wrote about banning..Only the words are different
I am talking generally.. You are talking with few real life facts..But we both are in agreement in the way we deal with the issue of banning
So you are a P.H.D.. I am deemed .P.H.D..
Kranti. what you have written is called rationalization in psychology.
what I have said is that the very same people who criticize banning from the resort did not have any problem when it was done under osho´s command.
personally, I do not have a moral judgment about it. i do not like it, but I really do not care. it was his place he could do what he wanted. And nowadays it is part of the rules , the same everywhere. Now, weather the reasons are fair or not…it depends on the case… but i really do not care much.
I think it is a political strategy, it has always been so. and as an outsider, for me it was part of the rules of the game there.
why was there no complain before?
because Osho was all knowing?
My God!.. Anthony
You say ” Now, weather the reasons are fair or not……it depends on the case… ”
I thought this is exactly what i also said in my post ..little more in detail
How come what i said became just rationalization?
And in your previous post you were very thoughtful and sensitive..You were looking at specific circumstances..You were also saying banning was done for right reaons..
Now in the second posts you seem to take a different view and you say banning is political and you dont care..
I honestly feel you were very authentic in your first post about banning.. I am sorry i dont meant to hurt you but i am saying what i felt..
And you ask ” because Osho was all knowing ”
It is not because he was all knowing.. it was because he knew better.. Otherwise what all those sannnyasins were doing listening to him year in year out…
Suddenly we seem to question even the basic intelligence of Osho ..
the very intelligence which made everyone listen to him ,
the very intelligence that made people more sharper ,
the very intelligence that made people live life more totally & joyously
the very intelligence that made people celebrate life..
Ah! We are all human
Kranti… you misunderstand me. I was not saying banning was done for good reasons. i was just stating the facts behind the policy… i was not saying it was good or bad, I was just saying how it was. You thought I was defending the policy. that was your reading.
as I said before, For me it is part of the rules of the game in pune. So, when I am there, if i want to be inside there are certain things I will not do… if I want to remain there. that is all.
weather the reasons are good or not, it is just not my business.
what calls my attention is the double moral or criticizing now and being silent before… it is the same game.
banning has been used as a way of social control, of expressing osho´s personal likings and as a security measure. I am just stating facts, not taking position.
You are reading what you want to read kranti
Anthony in your first post you said
” other who are expelled are mostly trouble makers… those were the people I saw when i worked in the welcome center. crazy psychotics, drug addicts and drug dealers… and of course guys jumping on women ‘
Does it not mean that the banning was for good reasons..
Expelling trouble makers and drug addicts and drug dealers is not good enough reason..?
Because you said those words i presumed you are in support of banning bad elemnts from the resort and that is ‘ good reason ‘ in your view point.
I am sorry if that is not the case..
Kranti.. I am an outsider. this is so difficult to understand. I appreciate OSHO AND HIS WORK, BUT i DO NOT HAVE AN EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT TO IT.
I do not care much if drug addicts, psychotics or women harassers are in the ashram. when I worked there my work was to help locate those people and I did it, But as far as i am concerned, I do not care.
My whole point has not been to make a moral judgment of it, but to share the facts behind it and that it has always been so, weather you like it or not and that the same people who complain now, Keerti, Neelam, Vairagia, Shantam, etc did not complain when it happened under osho´s guidance.
that´s all
actually, it is not fair to say i do not care completely. I cared when the people I liked were banned. such as when turiyam, the therapist, was banned for a while for sitting at the feet of another master. I cared when Miten and Premal were banned for playing for Ramesh Balsak. and i also cared when michael barnett told me his personal story about it.
But as you see Kranti, it is all related to me and my likings…not as a epistemological position.
Thanks Anthony.. Your last post realxes me.. I was scared with your earlier post thinking you dont care and you seemed to wave it off saying it is all political..
I am not saying you should take a moral stand.. But there are plain facts.. If trouble makers are banned it needs to be looked upon as good reason ..simple.. how can it be bad reason ? That has to be the way atleast now in the current environment.. i dont see any wrong in the banning ( based on the reasons we know ) unless there are wrong reaons for banning..
But in the case of Osho he always used situations as a tool to transform people.. For that reason we will not be able to judge Osho from a good / bad , right /wrong point of view..
I dont think someone like Osho can be subjected to that kind of analysis if we accept that he is awakened and he is beyond duality.. Ofcourse if we dont accept such a thing as someone can be awakened and beyond duality then it is different issue..
Kranti. that is exactly the rationale behind all of sheela´s crimes. she told everybody that osho wanted those things to be done. People did not feel it was right to do those things, but if it was coming from osho who is beyond duality… then it might be ok.
The first thing that osho said when he found out about that was ” never compromise, never do something against your own consciousness, it does not matter who tell you to do it”.
The point is not if osho is beyond good or evil, but if you are. And if you are not, then you need to act accordingly.
I do not know if the old man was enlightened or beyond duality… so for me it does not matter… if he would have told me to ostracize someone for what ever reason, i would have not done it… that ´s it.
I remember Prem Isabel ( the ranch p.r.person) telling me that osho suggested her to make the journalists uncomfortable by telling them shoking things when they were waiting to interview him in the ranch. . . and she said “NO. that is just not my way”… and that was it.
I think each human being should behave according to his own awareness… there is no one that can know better than you.
Years ago i was listening to a spritual teacher ( not a master ) He told a stroy about two monks
A Senior monk and a Junior monk.. Both went through all kinds spritual practices for a year and returned to their home..
On the way it started raining..The senior monk started dancing and thanking God..
The junior monk who was tired and in a hurry to reach home.. He got irritated
When the they reached home and tried to sleep..there was a wind which blew off half the roof.. The senior monk started dancing and thanking god
The junior monk couldnt take it..he said we are tired , hungry and need rest.. All negative things are happening and you are thanking god and dancing..
The senior monk said.. Listen son! i dont even know whether there is a god..even if there is one i dont know whether he lsitens to me or not..
But i know onething
My appraoch is making me happy and joyful and your appraoch is making you miserable..thats all matters.. whether your appraoch is making you happy or miserable..
” I remember Prem Isabel ( the ranch p.r.person) telling me that osho suggested her to make the journalists uncomfortable by telling them shoking things when they were waiting to interview him in the ranch. . ”
Never know.. I do not believe Osho was that insecure to handle journalists and so he told her to do so.. For someone like Osho , he didnt have to unsettle journalists for his personal reasons.. You never know what he was upto knowing the games & jokes he played.. If he can accumulate 90 Rolls just to send out a message about capitalism, asking Prem Isabel to irritae a few journalists is a minor joke.
Moerever we will never know how Prem Isabel understood Osho’s comments..
My appraoch is maiking me dance..haha
May be Prem Isabel didnt get the message.. Osho was testing her awareness ..not the journalists..
Ofcourse without bringing Osho& masters into context and on an individual basis Yes.. I am fully in agreement with you on ” ‘ each human being should behave according to his own awareness… there is no one that can know better than you. ”
Provided a specific individual has taken the first step on the path of awareness..It may not be applicable for someone who has not even started on the path of Awarness and Dis-identification from mental noise..
kranti…your approach is making you dance…
Thank you.. Anthony
Yes…MY appraoch and my love for Osho is making me dance..
I am very honest Anthony when it comes to Osho… Osho has completely deprogrammed me and left me in a state of emptiness from where i started looking at life..He lifted so much weight off my heart ..all past luggagee..which i was carrying like a fool.
Is so easier to look at life with the clarity he has given..
Yes I am dancing.. dancing out of gratitude to Osho
Just came back from my 2 euro job in a “multiversal and univesrsal Academy” consisting of ex. sannyasin group of meditators of 8 disciples and one teacher.
I know these nice and loving people for years. They adore their South Indian teacher and therefore a juice of motivation flows in their veins. For this reason they work tirelessly in cleaning, gardening and party service business to maintain the financial flow. Inspite of thousands of fliers and posters of their master’s lecture events, hardly few people enter the talks. Repition of the people is extremely low.
So as a statistic, i can say even with couple of disciples, a master and his immediate family does not need to bother about their daily needs.
Andreas has explained with academic precision the ex factors behind banning, deporting etc.
Till a certain extent world will be in utter chaos if we follow the open door policy. One world, one humanity does not mean a boarder less world, everybody is going every where. Rich are entering in poor people’s homes to take their women fold away, poor are going into rich people’s homes to steal, snatch and scratch what ever they can.
If as a street seller starts exhibiting his leather belts in a super store, sure he will be banned. exactly the way missionaries will be banned from brothels!
Illegal immigants are banned for a certain period in all the countries of the world. (sorry Osho, why your hyper active hosts in America did not mention this to you)
Anthony has given a fair history of banning in the ashram from early times.
My very first girl friend got “not allowed”status from the ashram in 1988. Her energy became too high, she started seeing visions at the cost of her physical and mental health, therefore the psychiatrist swami working in the health room recommended the “not allowed”, a class less than banning.
Even banned sannyasins were re allowed if they repented in writing.
As it is with every situation chances of getting it misused are equally strong as the precautionary measure.
The present scenario in the ashram is a miniature example of totalitarian regime. All the symptoms point to the dictatorial attitude and arrogance and cut off view from the changing flowing world around.
On a broader political arena Castro, great leader of North Korea, the Supreme spiritual leader of Iran and the military junta in Burma are such people.
The best example of the dictator who changed under compulsion is Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe. By reaching a power sharing agreement he has shown that every psychological trait can be changed, if not with love than with fear of condemnation and financial Embargo from the other countries.
This factor is not there in the case of Ashram. Basically everybody is happy with the Bonsai in the ashram. It is a eternal matter and competetors are happy with its day to day detrioration. The organisation claiming to create a new man, better man, complete man is surviving on one man’s money and zest.
PS- One interesting fact i remember the facial expressions of three famous people.
The Islamic Revolution Leader Ayatollah Sayyed Ali Khamenei, Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams and our very Own… ? i don’t need to write the name of this famous sannyasin. Please guess!
Sheela?
I am reproducing from http://maurylee.110mb.com/
Knives in their heads
While the sugar plums danced in the plazas and squares, a number of them showed up with knives in their heads. The police were summoned. The poor sugar plums with knives stuck in their heads explained that the knives were only apparently there.
“It’s a symbolic problem” they explained. “The knives are not real, and we did not stab ourselves in the head. No one did this to us. We are not even real, we are only apparently here.”
The police did not take kindly to the joking around. So the captain asked what the knives symbolized. “Apparently, we’re seekers, that’s what we’re called. A pain in the head called seeking, but we didn’t think it showed.”
“Well” said the captain, whether you are here or only apparently so, you must cover your heads or wear hats. You see, the apparent majority of sugar plums don’t have knives in their heads. We don’t want you to scare them.”
The captain told the knively ones to go see their Parsons and Waite. The investigation continued, with liberals and traditionalists having their say. The neos were contrary and the conservatives stubborn.
In the end it was never agreed, one way or the other. An agreement could never be reached. Apparently no one ever came to the meetings. Only apparently so. The knives were symbolic, not even real, and the wounds didn’t bleed. The wounds were apparently psychological or spiritual, and could not be found.
Meanwhile the sugar plums dance in the plazas and squares, oblivious to those who had been banished because of the knives in their heads. The seekers bled silently, dreaming in their beds, holding their heads. There was no one to rescue, and no one to teach. No one to heal. And no one to seek.
Banned-Aid,
Great expectations again waylaid
you’re on your own, like a rolling stone
New York City is not your home
Not Punah, not latah, not soonah
Right now , pow-wow!
The big green apple and the holy cow…
When Osho was alive, people just surrendered or left. Now there are all these half way houses… Yes it was authoritarian, and everyone who is a seeker has to look at the quality of authoritarianism that is in zen and in zen masters. There’s a book there for someone like OSHOBOB!
All you young guys, dont get confused, I was a guard in Pune one and we all had a list and photos of those not wanted in the Ashram. No-one questionned it then!!
My guess is that the model of spiritual growth where discussion is frowned on, and one just obeys orders is out of date, and basically medieval. But we fell for it just 30 years ago, and it seems many still do.
We all love heroes and leaders, getting out of that one is a lifetime’s work.
When Osho was alive, people just surrendered or left. Now there are all these half way houses…
Nice one!
Master has to be authoritative.
Probelm arises when court clerks start pronouncing judgements.
Nobody makes a noise when criminals are taken into prison but when a dissident voice is crushed, when a independent voice of a journalist is sileneced, with gun or the greed; we as chain of human beings are taking notice.
Thanks God atleast none dares to say from the world of Osho,”Dharam Chakra Parivartana, means wheels of religiousity, changing direction”
No one is boosting about the prototype of eco friendly car, it is new name with same kind of technology.
Once Opel was a proud German brand, without the state help or new management strategy, soon there can be sig board; OPEL-we reapir all kind of cars.
just read a news caption-
How Detroit Drove Into a Ditch -WSJ
Oh Poona; you are the Detroit for a different dimension, half built houses.empty rooms in my flat!!!
In India big discussion is going on about the gay rights. Judiciary and parliamane are in the favour to legalise homosexuality as per the advanced democracies, for sure clerics of all kind have a different view.
below is a paragraph from an editirial blog-fitting very much to the theme of this thread-
The clerics do not have a hotline to God, even if He existed, and really don’t know His “will and design’’. They are, therefore, reading the texts in a manner that is arbitrary. This is not surprising, though, as clerics of all “mainline’’ religions have always behaved in one particular manner all through history – castigating and throwing out anyone whose behaviour they can’t fathom and tolerate, banishing all who don’t conform to strict laws of living made not by an unseen God but by them and their predecessors. The logic was simple, aimed at bulldozing all into falling in one line so that there is no scope for breaking away and thereby challenging their authority by setting up separate entities. It is as clear as day that the priests aren’t reading it right because the one essential principle of all faith – be it Hinduism, Islam, Sikhism, Christianity, Jainism – is love and acceptance, not rejection. So when did hatred slip into the holy discourse?
PS-The management commatee at Osho Pune, will they be deemed as hospitality industry professionals, diplomates, burocrates or clerics?
or simply a soup with all the gemuese!
Surrender…The word has become ugly
May be we have to find a new fashionable word nistead of using that word..
Behind that word was a reason.. The whole spirituality is about surrendering your ego to Cosmos..And because we dont how to do that , the master gives a taste..by surrendering to your master we get a taste of let go which opens up a door to the bigger surrender
Nowadays it has becoem fashionable and has mass appeal to talk against surrender and support gay rights..Both attitudes are political..
Just speaking against surrender shows our ego is thrashing and crying and weeping..refusing to accept the reason behind why masters asked you one to surrender..all the other egos listening nod the head in support because it soothes those egos..
It is the lastest trend.. We can call the spritual model has changed and propose a new theory and all but the essence behind surrender and let go is the same and will be the same for another million years..
The reality of authoritarianism — part and parcel of Osho’s way since the beginning — is simply part of the turf of any movement where it is taken as a prerequisite that there are ‘more aware’ people and there are ‘less aware’ people in this world. The more aware people (or person) get to dictate to the less aware. Both sides accept it — voluntarily. Why else did you go to Osho?
As Heraclitus points out, when it was convienient for Osho sannyasins 30 years ago to accept this seemingly draconian rule of law, if by doing so, they gained acceptance by the group, then no one bitched about the set-up. It was either Osho’s way or the highway. The ashram’s decisions were final — end of story.
Nowadays, if there is nothing much to gain by being part of the group, then looking retrospectively, it sure is easy to remorph your viewpoint to an anti-medieval, pro-democracy standpoint. Now you have nothing to lose. In a word, this is called ‘opportunism’– which always lubricates your path for the moment, but gives you a dirty aura for the long haul.
Where were the courageous sannyasin pro-democracy, free-speech cheerleaders 30-40 years ago, in regard to the Osho world? They kept their mouths shut, like good boys and girls (quite literally too — most were barely out of puberty at that point). Heraclitus had his post as a security guard, checking out all those nice babes going through the gate. No protests of the ‘medieval zen’ system at that time from him. Too busy securing the operation.
Andreas was at the Ranch, without a squeek heard from our great mouthpiece of individualism and participatory democratic values. Too much to lose at that point. He was part of a communistic system, and accepted it, as long as he got something in return for his acquiescence.
Ma Satya Priya was a devotional Osho center manager, who supported the central organization for decades without a peep of protest — I even remember she had a plaster cast of Osho’s feet in her NYC center in the early 80′s for worship. Now, she gets banned by the Big Boys, and all of a sudden she has miraculously found freedom in giving up Osho in the body and the Resort’s concomitant heavy hand on her. Amazing.
Now, when the ashrams and communes are in shambles, the free-thinking men and women come out and roar — holy cow, the pussycats turn into lions. Now a Zen master’s authority and submitting to communal decisions are not worth much. Nothing to lose by taking these individualistic stands now.
Hmmm, I wonder what you guys would do if Osho came back, was resurrected, and stood before you, would you change again? That would be an interesting sight to see.
Kranti and Osho’s Bob, well said.
There is a power punch in the above two posts.
I am still curious to know from Bob why he did not go to Pune in all these years and also was he going to oregaon phase as a daay visiter or for long time?
And also Please, Anthony share your information about the breaking up of the original inner circle. So called Hollywood glamour and aristocracy radiating five members simply book their flights and start their shop at Sidona, was it a planed decision or they were pushed to leave.
Somehow that history of our time where we were part as a small share holders is hidden behind the veil though we all know what was the last meal of Buddha or Jesus.
PS- Satya Priya or Andreas and others have revealed much of their identity and have written with their best of their intentions, I feel when you throw such a direct volley, please, let people know also who are you, your face, age or other relevant aspects.
At your website also i could not find you.
shantam. what i know about the departure of the hollywood gang to sedona, had to do with the fact that Kaveesha was becoming too prominent, kind of like a mini-guru herself. The mystery school was also getting too prominent… and it was osho´s place. So they understood that and decided to open their own school where Kaveesha and her folllowers could be doing their thing, their way.
My feeling is that it was all pretty friendly.
Fantastic you have graduated!
To the school of Ikkyu and Tilopa
also banned
Tilopa stripped naked and burned the holy scriptures, it didn’t go down too well with the osho community of the times.
Ikkyu said fuck you to Pune no 125 went to brothels in his robes and eventually went for a blind teenage girl wehn he was 80
Shantideva banned
jesus didn’t seem to be too popular with pune no 65 either.
seems to be a pattern emerging
between organised religion and true religion, I wonder what it could be?
Rumi’s own disciples murdered his beloved
but I guess osho’s disciples are different because Osho’s the best best bestest ever guru and his disciples are the real chosen ones to spread his work.
They have to look after it right because without them my god the world would be plunged into spiritual darkness?
I love how they use osho quotes to back up their ego, the ego really is amazing! Every quote can be just as easily contradicted with another osho quote.
How about osho’s statements that after a master dies his religion dies, give it ten years and it’s totally gone and those that organise it propagate a false message of the master.
how about that?
how about ‘those that follow in my path must speak against me’?
James , especially for you
Once you are ready to say, “I DON’T CARE ABOUT RESPECTABILITY,” then the society is ABSOLUTELY IMPOTENT to do anything against your will.
THERE IS ONLY ONE RESPECT — THAT IS SELF-RESPECT.
THE WHOLE WORLD MAY PRETEND TO RESPECT YOU because there is a certain bargain: you do what the society wants and the society will respect you. It is a simple business — and you are the loser, because the respect is just hot air. And what you are giving in return is your solid being.
YOU ARE COMMITTING SUICIDE FOR RESPECTABILITY.
AND IT HAS TO BE A SINGLE MOMENT’S DECISION. It is not something that you have to think about for years,WHETHER TO DROP THE RESPECT AND JUST BE YOUR OWN SELF… It is not a question of years. If you are going to think for years, you are going to think for lives, and then too it will be the same problem.
IT IS A SINGLE MOMENT OF UNDERSTANDING, of seeing how you have been deceived. And as you see it, PUT ASIDE ALL RESPECTABILITY. Say to the whole world: “I am ready to be disrespected by the whole world, but I am not ready to be disrespected by myself. I am going to start a new life of self-respect.”
And to me this is the beginning of a religious man.
OSHO
From Misery to Enlightenment–
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
its funny when people put all at stake for some “future” cause. Whether its Pune that puts all at stake for the “future” of Osho not becomming a religious Idol, or all of us for the “future” of Osho not becomming an album in a record store.
Its funny how the man who spoke tons about the NOW has become a THEN to few and a FUTURE for many.
But, as I see it with my infant wisdom compared to you wise ones submerged for years in commune life…Osho is now here, and connectable and embraceable.
I connect through his discourses, his photos, his videos and meditations, and its here-now. I enjoy it, I love it. I don’t care whether I look cultish, immature, “religious”, blind—mehh… Who am I to care what happens with Osho in the future, I’m enjoying Osho NOW. Whatever the seed is that i’m producing, so be it.
So why be so unnatural about it?? One is an organization dedicted to some future cause, and another is the anti-organization anti-osho dedicated to all that went wrong. Few can’t put two and two together between self experiences and those of others in books.
And Osho…takes the crap for all of it. Chosen ones… “delete”.
This theory how only a rebellious few can understand this man is a myth. I’ve seen how Osho can effect everyone whether spiritual/non-spiritual or semi-spiritual—his message a birthright for everyone.
-Amrito
A real master will be happy when the disciple goes on his / her own. He created trust ( trust in yourself) , not obedience . I guess you could say my primary commitment is not to my relationship with the Guru , but to my own spiritual growth. I had to let go of this Guru trip in order to be just myself , cause if you love someone, you set them free ! The game of disciple and master can be played only for so long , there comes a time you need to stand on your own feet. It hurts because you love him so much. But look what the world is doing out of so-called ‘Love’ . My feeling is that Osho needs no protection of copyrights . You are not protecting his words but your own Ego’s. My Master Osho , my job to protect him –just let go of it. And become one will all.
“When you
become enlightened,
you don’t become a new person.
In fact
you don’t gain anything,
you lose something:
you lose your chains,
you lose your bondage,
you lose your misery,
you go on losing –
enlightenment is a proces of losing.
When there is nothing left to lose,
there is nirvana.
Beloveds
I have some interesting things to share regarding banning, but it may take a few days as I am busy in Osho Neo Vipassna camp for a week at Osho Nisarga, Dharmshala. In the meanwhile I have enjoyed reading what Anthony Thompson has been writing about it. Enjoyed it not because it is accurate though.
Love
This is my first time here,Seems like this site is mostly for ones,who want to remain in a dreamworld,they all seem to be glorifying their past and dreaming of a better future but forget the ”O”ld man” is no more and would disown most of these people if he would be alive.Just WAKE UP GUYS ! and REMAIN AWAKE
Oshobob – Zen Roar. No mercy.. Keep it up..This is the kind of courage and honesty we need in a forum discussing stuff related to Osho..anything less than that is not fair to the guy who stood up and spoke against the whole world..and all the rubbish
I think , To be fair to ourselves ( Not to Osho .. he doesnt need our fairness and all ) we need to look at all the reasons for banning..We may not get the details and reasons for all the people who got banned..But at least the banning of who is who in the sannyasworld.. It will throw lot of light on facts rather than assumptions..
Someone like Anthony can play a key role here..as someone who looks at things purely as a scholar
We accept the rationale behind all the banning when Osho was in body.. It was a MASTER’S GAME..Not meant for light hearted..There was an acceptance by everyone because Osho was guiding ( I am not talking about second level , third level decisions which Osho might not have been aware )
Now the people who get banned get hurt and speak up because the pune management is not equal to Osho or not considerted equal to Osho.. They are considered equals to all the other sannyasins ..by people like Satya Bharti..They dont like to get banned by people who are equals in awareness..
End of the day if we may come with a picture which is diffrent ..
I am lookin forward to the posts by Sw Chaitanya Keerthi and Anthony , two people who can provide lot of facts..
Dear Amrito you are correct you have infant wisdom.
It is a transmission beyond intellect, and ideas.
No one is saying worship is wrong we are saying people with big egos are people with big egos.
The ego manipulates any situation into thinking that what it is involved in is important.
Osho is dead.
People have been tuning into dead guru’s, entities, god for millenia. Nothing wrong in it.
It’s just not what osho was teaching, but who cares what osho said follow your heart. But accept where you are. Infant wisdom. If you can accept where you are progress is possible.
Osho is dead for James Morrison. That is ok. Osho is not dead for many of
Osho lovers and disciples, the opposite is true.
So why is James Morrison cruising around on Osho pages? Is he a Christian?
Does he work for the CIA?
james, first you state that people on this forum are using Osho quotes to “back” them up and than you say:
“It’s just not what osho was teachin…”
indirectly pointing to Osho’s quotes, but at the same time claiming you have some sort of higher capability of understanding Osho’s teachings amongst others here.
But all I can feel from your post is all-ego because Osho’s “teachings” are quite diverse, especially on the connections one makes to the energy of enlightened masters.
And thanks for the declaration from your end that i’m right about my “infant” wisdom, but even I dont know that. So I won’t need your confirmation on that part—but thanks anyways!
Somehow this very simple sannyas portel has become the “cnn” of Osho’s world.
Most of the breaking news are happening here(who is taking what kind of group or meditation camp etc. are not news just tender notice or whehter forcasting, or sunsign columns on the news.)
it is also a wonder when allmost all the newspapers in the democratic world have columns for readers opinion on their web edition, Sannyasnews.com is the only one where readers can enrich the articles with their comments.
Internet has made possible, the interaction between readres and writers . Those who cannot digest this have to close their publications.
I hope Sw. Keerti will think about this suggestion for the publications he edites. For other Osho publication command must come from the VATICAN or from inside.
It is a refereshing feeling today to see few new names sharing their thoughts or no thoughts. I hope they will share some info. about them too. Just plain facts not advaita kind of round abouts,” I exist not only thou is there.”
It was my understanding that in order to ban someone the Inner Circle meets and makes the decision. As Priya passed through the Welcome Center and had a room in the Guest House, it is obvious that she was not on the computer “banned” list. She was banned when someone in London said by phone that she was banned (forever).
Doesn’t this seem rather odd? How many people have the power to ban people for whatever reason they decide upon and answer to nobody except themselves?
Yes Dhanyam, it does seem rather odd, to answer your rhetorical question. But, maybe a better way to approach the events that happen in and around the world of Osho, is to ask the question, “What is NOT odd about any and all of it?” It’s just a collection of very odd stories, from beginning to end — if there is any end to it.
How about this odd one:
The Osho people purchase a huge tract of land in the desert of Oregon, which is zoned for farm use — which prohibits the building of most residential structures on it — and then moves in with thousands of sannyasins with plans for thousands more to come, but they can’t build housing for them, because of the zoning laws, which any normal purchaser would have surely considered asking about prior to buying the land.
Odd, no? Very odd.
And I’m sure Dhanyam, you could relate a whole slew of oddball and stranger than fiction stories to us about the Osho world if you chose to. So, this banning story fits right in as a thread in the tapestry of Osho’s unfolding one-off drama of life, it looks like to me.
OshoBob,
I understand the gist of the image you’re trying to portray… but just to (big) muddy the picture some, Rajneeshpuram was incorporated in November of 1981. Zoning permits were applied for the expansion. Bulding permits were aquired and building codes with inspections were enforced.
I do agree sannyasins have never seemed to be able to agree to what the rules are, or when it’s best to follow them.
-g
Just read one of Osho’s Hindi letter in a compiled version. Titel in English will be,” Flowers of gratitude in the lake of love.”
Letter was writen in 1971 to Neelam, one of the life long disciple,who has also served Osho and institution in the high profile positions.
When in year 2000 “divorce” kind of thing was happening between two strong group of people, much mud was thrown exactly the way Madonna and Ritchi Guy did during their divorce time.
On the earth, mud sliding is the natural process.
As i read yesterday, just six months after all the enmity, Pop diva and British director are again in talking terms and spending time together with their children and their Kaballah prayer meetings.
When the cause is bigger than the personal ego, one must find the way out, if people have not learned the art of conflict management inspite of all the meditations, discourses, groups and seminars, it is as hopeless a case as nothing goes up inspite of Viagra!
” When the cause is bigger than the personal ego, one must find the way out, if people have not learned the art of conflict management inspite of all the meditations, discourses, groups and seminars, it is as hopeless a case as nothing goes up inspite of Viagra! ”
Well said Shantam
Especially in Osho’s world all they need is one dynamic mediation to trow out junk and come to a relaxed state for discussion..
What makes it so hard for people to discuss..
I think there is a inherent quality in all of Osho’s teaching where in the name of not compromising on self respect and dignity people fall on the other side and strengthen the ego
In a way it is good to see people just refusing to compromise…
dear Prem you’re having a go at me for ‘claiming’ osho is dead, seriously! Ya got me, I’m here to spread lies, sent by George bush i refuse to back down with my crazy techniques to destory sannyas.
The point is you have to have a living master.
Do you know if that ‘energy’ is osho or just a mind projection? Do you know?
Do you know if it’s not just energy?
Can you talk to osho and can he tell you what to do?
Osho himself talked about great meditators feeling energy and even having emanations of god appear to them as just mind projections. But who cares what osho said is it true? do you know this is osho?
this has been a problem for millenia (according to books) people intrepretating energy. Then we end up with mediums and preists.
Dear Shantam this is not just fancy spiritual talk. Is it whats happening now? Are there certain people who are claiming to have a higher divine connection to osho (thus the truth) ? YES. Are there people saying you have to pass through their holy place to teach osho meditations? YES.
These are the people osho spoke against. In the same way he said it will be the christians who will kill christ. Different names same type of person.
You must understand the priesthood is taking over.
And they start by banning people.
by clamping down on free speech such as criticising osho.
and by trademarking and copyrighting the man most against trademarking and copyrighting that’s ever lived.
Dear amrito you are right I have more insight than you on this topic. Can your pride take it?
Buddha said pride is the most dangerous delusion there is because even when people are wrong they wont change.
I wasn’t quoteing osho I was telling you the meaning of his teaching. If i did quote him then it would be because his experience coincides with mine.
It would be pretty weird to follow his teachings if you think no one can implement them or attain to the moon he is pointing to?
James
We all understand there is a place for illusions ..One can always deceive oneselves that they are conncted to the master..You never know..
But there is no need to go to the other extereme and start declaring, that master is dead and this master is dead and all ..there is certain place in heart for the master even if he is not alive.. Until we get enlightened we will have that kind dependency and as long as it is keeping you soft and humble and you are aware of possible delusions there is nothing wrong..
It is sense of gratitude.. If you start questioning everything and every feeling people have in the name rationality you will move to other extereme and you will become mind oriented.
Yes..Living master is important.. But how do you know your living master is true? In that way also you can deceive yourlsef..Cant you?
Moreove living master is not a pre requisite or necessary condition for anyone to awaken..they can only help.. Otherwise most of the humanity would have awakened by now..
Most of the awakened masters be it Buddha , Jesus or Osho never had any masters..
Attachement to the master is the last and difficult thing to drop.. But we dont go with a band and start decalring who is dead and whi is not dead kind of things.. It just shows insensitivity to the core..
Just to add, the need to hang on to a master who is not alive may not be right..Sameway the need to have a living master may be nothing but looking for a papa..
How do you know who is right James unless ofcourse you are already enlightened with the help of a living master in which case you will not be posting these type of messages in a forum which is for people still on the path..not for the one who attained.
I like this guy Jim Morrison… I am not sure if it is the dead singer speaking from his grave in the Parisian cemetery or just an impersonator.
But I agree on his take. Osho is dead, very much so.
What he woke up in each one of us is as alive as we are… the rest is just esoteric fantasy , mind projections and wishful thinking…something that the very ols man, Osho, fought so much against.
I am glad Anthony you found a friend. “…..the rest is just esoteric fantasy , mind projections and wishful thinking…”-THAT IS CALLED MIND, NO?
I find this topic of death quite hilarious! It is almost like poor Jesus trying to prove that he is a son of god and Anthony with Jim are about to crucify him for just saying that.
I think best would be if you, Anthony report to us once you “pop up” and meet Michael Jackson and others…. You are good at collection gossip so I am sure you can get us some info from up there (that’s of course only possible if you will go before us). Let’s see…..
Death in the first place is an illusion. There is no death, only deathlessness,
Once you have melted with the master in his physical body or otherwise, the
master will haunt you. If you do not know this, just means it has not happened to you yet.
About the banning: this is being used by the new Osho priests Jayesh and Amrito and mostly executed by his lawyer brother Yogendra from London. They
do not play fake games anymore, their ultimate power trip is clear to see.
Dhanyam and all the others: why don’t you all combine your energy and do a group legal challenge to that? This is after all just a spiritual resort now to which you have done no harm. People sitting in London, who do not want to be in India ban people in India.
Prem Buddha. when was the last time you were dead? for as far I know, no one has come back to tell us what is behind the curtain…
This is what I call esoteric fantasy.
Common guys..
James and Anthony are trying to convince everyone that Osho is not there in the body as though people here woke up after a 20 year coma and are refusing to belive Osho is not there ..
Osho is not in body.. We are wide awake for the last 2o years or so and we are aware . All we are saying is there is a sensitivity with which we deal with this.. Everyone has love and respect for Osho whether he is in the body or not . They have their way of relating to Osho..
Let us us put an end to this Obituary kind of posts..Think James started this by trying to prove Osho is not the only master and we all need a living master kind of posts.. May be he is the salesman for some new master and before his actual sales pitch he is trying to convince us that Osho is no more alive..
James..
In the previous thread you called me and shantam over inflated egos because we were saying there is no other effective alternative to Osho currently. You also said ” There are many gurus doing incredible work ”
Please give us a few names of those gurus doing incredible work .. out of compassion.. We will go to these gurus instead of wasting our time in this forum..Please tell us..
kranti. ” not to be in the body” is a euphemism. If you are not in the body… where are you?
Dead means dead… and of course not in the body. but it sounds like you went for a walk without your body, for a while…and that is just not possible. If you are not in the body… you simply do not exist. and that is to be dead.
Another matter is the gratitude and the experiences and the lessons that we learned with osho, and they stay with us for as long as we are alive.
Anthony
Not to be in the body need not mean ‘ dead ‘.
But in the same way ..Are you sure there is no way we can connect to a master after he leaves the body? How are you so certain?
Lot of people experience subtle connectivity with the master even after He leaves the body and secondly there is reverence we have for the master even after he leaves .. So we dont go around telling the master is dead , the master is dead ..
Even when Osho was there in the body how many people were actually close to him? You could count in fingers..Does it mean for others who couldnt get closer to Osho’s body he was not there at that time..
It is all a way of connecting and relating to the master..
What is the need to prove desparately that Osho is dead.. So many people have reached a certain level awakening when Osho was there and now they dont need another living master..they just continue with their reverence for Osho and deepen their awareness.. For them osho is alive in spirit
It is a question of sensitivity..We cannot approach everything in a academic / head oriented manner ( Mind you i have lot of respect for your knowledge..Dont take me wrongly )
That’s right Anthony. That “in the body”, “not in the body” stuff is a sound bite from Hindu mumbo-jumbo originally I believe. People nowadays use it because Osho used it — I think most are just parrots repeating his pet phrase for dying. It’s like when these sannyasins are dying now, everyone writes things like “bon voyage”, and “have a great journey”, “you’re traveling in the stars now Swami!” , and shit like that.
Actually, no one really knows anything about death — it’s simply pseudo-spiritual claptrap that makes the speaker sound knowledgable about the “beyond”. Most of this is warmed over Judaeo-Christian ‘going to meet God’, or ‘going to Hell” , or the Indian ‘transmigration of the soul’ baloney — all of which has no verifiable evidence to back it up. Sweet thoughts nonetheless….
Anthony, have you not heard that East has discovered 7 bodies (at least) and have you not heard of meditatations and methods of leaving one’s body. These are facts, not fiction.
If you know nothing about it at least do not condemn it.
I think Kranti is using correct language, Osho’s phisical body is dead, an idiot can see.
There are so many cases of people coming back from “there”, of course unintentionally. There are also these cool monks doing all kinds of focus pokus.
Anthony, be so kind and read Osho’s book “In search of miraculous” or other master, no discrimination here. Saying that Osho never said this and that is funny.
Death, dead…uuuuuuuuu scary….. who is next?
Anthony
..dont know whether you have experienced it or not..Very simple example
Everytime you have deeper question on the path.. you randomly open a book or pick up a audio casette ..there you have the answer to your question.. It happens time and again when you have trust in the master.. without fail… In a subtle way there is something..which is beyond our knwoledge of what is body and what is death etc.. These things can not be explained..
I trust most of friends here would have experinced that kind mysterious ways of connectivity..including James
I am NOT trying to get into illusions or some esoteric stuff..NO.. I will be the last person interetsed in those kind of things.. But some subtle things which are beyond grasp are there..Since we are on this topic Someone like Swami Chiatanya Keerthi can help us.
I am NOT trying to get into illusions or some esoteric stuff
Kranit, there are people and have been people who remember their past lives-these are facts from the West too. If the guys above are shut down due to their conditioning nothing we can do about it.
Oshobob
All i said is that there is a sensitivity way of relating to a master.. whether he is alive or not
I didnt argue that there is no such thing as physical death..If i knew there is no such thing as death exists what i am doing here arguing with you guys?
Now that it has become an arguement let us take it up..
You say ” all of which has no verifiable evidence to back it up. ” If there are are no evidences..then How are saying those things dont exist? Are there verifiable evidence that those things are not there?
Come to India Man!.. We will show it is not mumbo jumbo.. If needed we will send you out dead for a week to the cosmos and take back ..It will rejuvenate your body and mind like anything.. Ready to take?
Yes. Chetna
I know masters who teach out of body experinces as part of their meditationss and all.. As an Indian i hear lot of things which is not digestible to a western mind
Osho always warned us against getting interested in those esoteric stuff.. Only out of sheer love for Osho i stay away from those topics.. I trust Osho and he showed us how to live here beautifully without worrying about after life..
Just because we picked up these discussion i posted few messages
chetna. You just believe in those things… they are not your direct experience.
there is not one report of someone dead and come back. and I am not talking about clinical deaths. I am talking about real deaths.
Chetna I do not know what happens after we die. no one knows. You do not know… you believe.
As the master zen said: ” Not knowing is more intimate”
“In search of a miraculous” is a title Osho stole from Ouspenski.
I can get you hundreds of quotes where Osho contradict what he says in that book..
Kranti. you are not aware that is your mind the one that is giving meaning to what you have read or heard and apply it to your life. there is no magic here. Human mind is a meaning creating system. meaning is not extrinsic, it is intrinsic to you… you give it. I can´t believe that a meditator is so unaware of the workings of his own mind and really thinks that significance exists independent of your psychological construct.
Try an experiment. get a book of deepak chopra and have faith in it, and then ask the existential question and open a random page… Magic! deepak chopra es answering you!
Man it is your own mind supplying the meaning.
what the hell do you do when you meditate ,. that you can not see the workings of your own mind?!!
Anthony
I didnt say anything against what you said..Why are you interpreting?
All i am saying is ‘ It is all a way of connecting and relating to the master..’ Why you guys out there to prove Osho is dead?
As far as the getting an answer for deeper question is concerned it is not like what you described.. It does happen when you have trust..It is very simple science Anthony..when you trust and are connected to the cosmos ( your center ) you do get some assistance as things align nicely for you..thats all i said ..
I dont know anything more about death..Certainly not more than what you & oshobob know..
Guys ..let us change topic.. Death from every angle… Too much… Chetna is getting scared..But she is trying to manage that by trying to scare us back..
Let us talk about life
” How many Polacks are needed for an electrical repair job?
Seven: one to be the negative pole, one to be the positive pole, and five to keep them apart! “
Kranti. I have lived years in India and all I have seen is mumbo jumbo. I have met those teachers you mention, but one thing is to teach something and quite another to do it. I can try teach how to fly… do some mantras, some fasting, etc and when you complain that you can not fly, I will just tell you you need to believe, or you are not ready, or it is a device… or whatever… because human beings can not fly… point.
sorry to pop your balloon Kranti , but I am a professor of psychology, a meditator and a spiritual researcher.
You are not in tune with ” the cosmos” you are eager to find an answer… and you will… that is how the mind works… it supply meaning.
guys it is the same old wine in new bottles. we are not able to deal with the lack of meaning or the fear of death and we invent esoteric or spiritual answers to make us feel better. the only difference is that now it is not god who is out there to help us, but osho… all we need to do is to be connected withe the center… the same bullshit!
I think Osho should be turning in his ashes in chwang tzu listening to all this.
That funny Kranti, that Pole joke…very funny.
Some have said that all religious seeking is generated by the need to find some suitable explanation for death — that could be true.
And also, Kr, all religions have given explanations about the “after life”, but just because there is no evidence to prove them false, does not make them true,or even something worth your time to ponder over.
Can you prove that the Christian or Jewish or Muslim “heaven” or “hell” does NOT exist with any evidence? I can’t. But this kind of thing is how humanity has been hoodwinked and manipulated by religious priests forever on this planet.
Hey, I saw frank walking down the street here in America a few days ago, with his northern English girlfriend on his arm. Can you prove I didn’t? Most likely not.
” professor of psychology, a meditator and a spiritual researcher ”
Wow Anthony!.. How are you managing to be sane ?
My God!
I dont belive in esoterics and i never had any interest.. I just talked about sensitivity & reverence towards master and few things like connecting to your center etc.. You guys are looking at me as though i am typing these posts while floating in the air.. Leave me out.. I dont know anything about esoterics ..
kranti. how do i manage to be sane? I meditate, i watch the working of my mind and take distance from the thought process…
and i refrain from thinking that the cosmos or osho is answering anything to me. that is called auditory hallucinations in psychology.
I bow down to you Master Anthony..
Man you are really something when it comes to academical research & approach.. God save your students..
But i will be always greatful for that research and reply against Calder because you did that for my Master Osho..
I did it for myself, for truth, for my research… and for the love I have for Osho… to be fair
i watch the working of my mind and take distance from the thought process…
And then?
How r u sure that it is not mind looking and distancing from the mind?
To me Anthony, it is not a suprise that you reject all experiences, a safe way, BUT you know nothing about sannyas and what comes with it.
I am aslonot on an ethoteric trip, could not care less about becoming some witch or a healer….want to be done with all of it, once and forever
Anthony, if I die before you, I will come and haunt you….he he he
please do Chetna…- but come with nice lingerie
and only early in the evening… I go to bed early.
regarding your question… and then? Then I am fully present, one with everything, and I feel fantastic. if you think that meditation will save you from death you are deluding yourself. meditation is an awareness method not a consolation from not knowing.
how do i know is not my mind watching?
I don´t
As far as Osho is concerned, if you think he was propagating himself as Master than take Him in this form or leave HIm. Simply don’t try to be over smart.
All the universites have the faculties of Philosphy, Religion, theology, Psychology, one can read the best literature available there.and the beauty is one does not need to call lecturers, readers or professors, My Master, beloved Master.
One also does’t need to sit on the floor etc.
If people feel happy with their inner development in this form it is all beautiful.
Most of the pop psychology books coming from America are written by such people and they never go in search of the Master.
But i feel it is unfair and un itelligence to go to the institutions based on the concept of master disciple and than to complain or try to change the core structure.
For me Idiots are those who go to the vegetarian restaurants and ask for the meat or vice versa.
If people think Osho has the same designation as Deepak Chopra, it is unfair to both. Those who feel ashamed to be disciples must go to the people like Dr. Chopra.This i am not saying as a disrespectful gesure.
Anthony ,l thought you were intelligent but you are refering to Deepak Chopra , who seems to be an Asshole,Please do youself a favour and donot compare anyone,as you seem to be so aware about mind- watching .
only Love
Daredevil. You do not understand or read correctly.I did not compare deepak chopra with osho. I compared the ability of the mind to find meaning or messages in words written on a book.
Kranti was saying that osho was answering his existential questions through randomly finding answers in his books… provided you were centered.
I said you do the same with anyone you believe, make it deepak chopra, and you will get the same result, because the answer is in THE INTERPRETATION THAT THE MIND GIVES TO THE TEXT.
that is what i said.
To be disciple, in my understanding has nothing to do with this esoteric mumbo-jumbo.
One of the things that I liked about Osho was that for him spirituality was a very practical thing, it was not about believing in bullshit but about setting on a quest for your own truth.
” Only what you know yourself is yours, the rest is irrelevant” I hear him say.
but who’se trying to prove who and what to who?
we’re diving into philosophy soon enough…
but, meditation and the path is a place to become more aware of the workings of the mind, and the mind is both subjective and objective…
and this “awareness” of the mind, the body…both together, is what?
its as esoteric as it is raw and real. because that is IT.
but so…now I’m gonna come back to forum a debate it?? rationalize it? argue it?
how about i keeep going with it and don’t deny it or accept it. but what comes in the mean time is something which is uncontrollable.
sometimes thoughts produce events, sometimes dreams reveal reality. sometimes touch replaces though. and love subsitutes intoxication.
and sometimes…a situation occurs so precicely to the need of that very moment where everything lines up, and you can see the twinkle in Osho’s eyes….
prove it? naa….i’d rather be a fool..
Dear all thank you for your thoughtful comments.
I hope you are all abiding in the spirit of non seriousness.
Osho expounded many many paths for people to follow.
For me the essence of his heart was to be yourself.
freedom.
Osho was/is one of the few masters who praised doubt. In the spirit of the moment he said it is the highest spiritual value and again and again he said don’t believe. Find out for yourself. Experience for yourself. Follow truths. If following the truth that Osho is dead is hard for you you have slipped into belief. There is nothing wrong with this but do you really believe it is what osho was teaching?
Osho is not in his body it is an existential fact.
It is important because osho talked to people, everything he said was related to those people, in terms of energy exchange. The words are not osho. If we have a book and we get a good feeling from it it is not osho it is our mind.
osho is not a video image those are coloured dots on a screen. Osho was all about energy exchange.
It doesn’t mean you don’t have beautiful experiences.
I’m not being rational and anti devotional. But a spade is a spade. Why do you think osho got so much grief because being alone and having these things stripped from us causes pain.
Some of you guys have the weirdest ideas! sorry just to me:)
An enlightened person is not welcome here!!!!!!!!
what do you think enlightenment is??????????
well for me it is love and freedom openness and joy
in the name of being open and free you don’t want someone who is open and free and loving!!!??
because what? being around a loving person or hearing her speak will throw you off that path??
truly truly bizarre…
I’d rather not be enlightened if it means being ostrisised from the ones i love
seriously though if you become love you are no longer welcome here? PLEASE explain to me how you reach such a strange conclusion?
A master is someone who knows themselves.
To find one is deeply personal, it is a heart to heart connection.
One mans guru is another mans asshole.
Very very very few beings have attained without a living master.
Osho buddha and jesus are wrong jesus had teachers (according to books)
To go back again to osho’s death (ha ha ha really i’ve never thought about it before but you’re the first people i’ve ever come acorss who have a problem with me saying he is dead!)
I’ve never met him. Nothing I do or say can change that. Every other person I’ve met on this earth affects me from their presence THEIR LIVING PRESENCE
When I read buddha I get good feelings and blessings but I also get that from watching gandalf (in fact I get more!) My inner energies opened more watching the lord of the rings.
That’s what i mean.
Even osho says you need a living master and he says it a lot.
The master can be anyone.
We are all divine.
A master is aware herself.
There is no way to know this.
trust is the only way. Trust comes from your own experience thats why you cant be a preacher or convertor. If you think others should get into osho it means you are not trusting yet. In fact it is the ego trying to bulster itself in numbers and recognition.
Your master could be an ugly old hag who just spits on you and everybody thinks is mad.
osho is not new the tibetans as just one example have been uniting the path of love and wisdom for centuries i.e. zorba the buddha
question: how do you know osho wasn’t just teaching spiritual idiots and failures who couldn’t connect with higher teachings because they were so retarded so osho had to come along to just get them going? How do you know?
osho has said along with the sufis you start the spiritual journey the moment you can EXISTENTIALLY say I don’t know. That means you have to face energetically the deepest hells and evils of paranoia and terror thats why you need a living master so you don’t go insane.
Isn’t it funny tho, that those who shout “Find a living master, find a living Guru!! Dont be a preacher !” seem to be preaching, and more guru like than any of the people whom are doing well sincerely feeling Osho’s energy?
James let me summarize what you said:
“Osho expounded …
Osho was/is one…
Osho is not…
Osho was all about energy exchange.
Even osho says you need a living master …
osho is not new..”
Osho Osho OSho is still around you, influencing you, and influencing so many Gurus around the world. He is encyclopedia for New Age gurus everywhere!!
Just scratch a little, you’ll find Osho in Chopra, a lil Osho in Tolle, a lil Osho in Guru Ma and tons of Indian gurus.
And some come in like Osho Dhara with a similar message like James saying “find a living master” and than preach their own song.
After Buddha, so many disciples were enlightened and inspired. So many who hadn’t met Buddha realized his teachings. And even now, people like Thich Nhat Hanh, who are lovers of Buddha and have realized need not say “drop buddha, hez dead”.
Buddha inspired such a movement in Tibet that many enlightened masters were born there. But see, seeing Buddha’s message even in paper had many people transformed.
And its happening with Osho. There no need that he be “dropped” because he’s dead. There’s no need that people should feel awkard to bow down, cry or clap to his videos, books or pictures. Its in great moments of total surrender that many have reached, because its those rare moments where the ego can dissolve.
But after just 19 years, people are ignorant and arrogant enough to bury such a beautiful contribution..which to some is the surrender Osho taught, and dissolving dance around his energy.
So Anthony you can have a quote war with anyone regarding what Osho said but even you know that its a futile war of words from a master who’s contribution lies even beyond words. Because for every quote you counter, someone will counter you back, and you’ll have to take statistical counts of how many quotes you got and how many they got…a really stupid game.
One sentence from the above is quite to the mark.”One person’s Master is another person’s ass hole.”
One person’s medicine is another person’s poison.
Asshole is also fine, many people enjoy this part of the anatomy.
Few people even want us to beleive, one can even conceive children out of it!
These are the priests,
i was thinking they exist only in the old religions. I was wrong, priests exist everywhere, in the neo religious movements too….
@Anthony ,By the way ,l purposely used the word Asshole,actually l meant Deepak chopra is a nice man but somehow too nice be here on sanyasnews.
@ Amrito, you were talking about Buddha ,there were enlightened persons even before Buddha ,only their names have not been recorded probably,a master is a word used for that energy not the person,ofcoarse we know that but through that persons body but we get attached to a certain master. Go ahead friend dont get stuck.
@Shantam, that was a good Punch.
@ all friends here, lam an American by birth,now 54year man,who took sanyas in the Ranch but left soon after , been a hippie for few years now live with my girlfriend ,Suz in Boston.
Amrito ..Your last post was a GEM..
” And its happening with Osho. There no need that he be “dropped” because he’s dead. There’s no need that people should feel awkard to bow down, cry or clap to his videos, books or pictures. Its in great moments of total surrender that many have reached, because its those rare moments where the ego can dissolve ”
Let the egos who dont want to surrender thrash ,cry and weep.. Who cares?
Lot of people talk as though surrendering is like charity ..thats something you do for the sake of the world .. Either you surrender and let go of your ego or dont..Who cares?
After a while those egos will settle down and surrender.. It is just a question of when?
Daredevil
” @Anthony ,By the way ,l purposely used the word Asshole,actually l meant Deepak chopra is a nice man but somehow too nice be here on sanyasnews ”
You say you purposely said used that word.. May i know what is that Holy purpose man?
And Why Deepak Chopra is too nice to be in sannyas news.. that guys didnt even make an effort to save one individual ( MJ ) when he had the opportunity & capacity and he is trying to be a saviour of everyone..
I am saying this knowing well no one is in control of life and Deepak chopra couldnt have done something beyond a point ..But it is a very simple example of how one person cannot control life with all the good intentions.. even when they have capacity to do so.. lLife always catches you unaware .. Even if you are fully aware & elightened… All the Osho bashers should understand something out of this.. How Osho couldnt have controlled everything that happened around him..
Amrito
You say ” Just scratch a little, you’ll find Osho in Chopra, a lil Osho in Tolle, a lil Osho in Guru Ma and tons of Indian gurus. ”
Just to add spice to this i will share something.. I just heard this. Just Second hand or 3rd hand info..Dont ask for proof
Sometime back , a Osho sannyasin ( Old one at that ) was telling about a story of a Big Guru in India.. This Guru is currently very famous here.. One day when this Guru was travelling his luggage fell down and opened .. All the books he was carrying fell down.. Guess what.. All Osho books… He was exposed.. People came to know where his knowledge is coming from
I I am not trying to be childish here saying he learned everything from Osho kind of stuff.. Dont beat me up by misunderstanding me )
Ofcourse i have listened to that Guru few times.. It is so obivious that the touch of Osho is there in every word..So most of the new age gurus use Osho as an encyclopedia.. No dount that.. Sometimes even i get tempted to be come a teacher because i heard so mcuh from Osho.. I am sure i can make a living out of it..
In that sense also Osho has done a great service to humanity.. He had so mcuh to share He has unknowingly given alternative career options to lot of people..
” My inner energies opened more watching the lord of the rings.”
James.. Man! You are really something.. You have thrown away the need for all buddhas.. All you need is few more lord of the rings kind of movies..
Never heard such a blessed being whose chakras get opened by watching lord of the rings..
Man!!… You are full of contradictions..But i see the other side of it.. You are just on the verge..One push from a living master..there you go! You will disappear and a buddha will be born..Dont miss ..Who knows we will all come your shop..
The beauty is-we don’t know. Existence is a mystery. It is amazing to see how we all have different opinions and experiences about who got enlightened and with whom. Do we know?? Ha ha ha ha Maybe the whole thing is a joke! Just something to be occupied with….why not.
Once Yoganda said : “the path of the divine is not a circus” and it means a lot to me.
Anthony is very right, it is very hard to distinguish between mind and real experiences (although he completely disregards them). To me meditation is watching, no opinion, no attitude, no pleasure , no pain.. Even if God appears in front of me can I be aloof?
Hence, I do not think it is important whether Osho is in the body or not! He has done more than enough to inspire us on the path, that’s all the Master can do it appears.
Yes, sitting in someone’s presence is overwhelming, and then what? Is it your presence? Or do you just feel you in that presence and then it is gone? How many people sat in Osho’s presence, and? Nothing seem to have happened to them (and I don’t mean enlightment, just transformation).
@Kranti,to make u guys awake as it seemed you were sleep – talking,an about nice man lt was meant to be a Satire,which my pal is exactly how l feel about Deepak Chopra.
This is from Daredevil
” @Kranti,to make u guys awake as it seemed you were sleep ”
This is from James
” ” If someone is clinging to an image which helps inflate their ego I may critisice, if someone needs help I may say he is the man of greatest integrity I’ve ever come across it depends.”
All the people in this forum were well aware we are having our non-serious discussions except for few posts where we really discussed some possibilities
Suddenly Daredevi and James seem to kind of jumped into the forum ( think these guys kept reading all the posts for long time and decided something is wrong with all the guys here..)
So they jump in and declare ..
WE ARE HERE TO WAKE YOU UP YOU POOR SOULS!
WATCH OUT Guys.. two Buddhas have joined the forum
thanx for acknowledging , l speak for myself . jus to let you know this is my first on this site.if this is your Welcome l accept it.and if you are trying to scare me pal ,try again.
How can i scare you DAREDEVIL..And that too enlightened Devil…Ha! never heard of enlightened Devil.. Osho would have loved this..
And on a lighter note..take it easy man.. You are always Welcome..You will understand the poeple here not that bad.. just a little bit more sharper than what you would like to them to be..
If you think this is welcome you must wait for Andreas and Frank and Oshobob..
By the way Daredevil..What is this ‘ speak for myself ‘ man…If you want to speak for yourself , why do you need a forum ! You can do that nicely sitting in a chair and without anyone around.. You can go on speaking for yourself for eternity…No one will disturb you..hahaha
Dear Kranti I’m waiting for osho the movie to come out to have my mind splattered all over the auditorium!
My understanding is life is divine. Including movies.
Now thats tantra, baby!
Can’t believe (:)) you think I sound like a buddha! words huh!
If we met I would hope you would simply laugh at me.
Dear amrito, words huh? I’m sorry but you totally mis understood what I wrote. It happens.
I always find it funny that whenever I come across ‘spiritual’ people whenever I say something they don’t like they always enter the nid loop and just throw it back. Example ‘thats just your mind’ ‘no its your mind’ ‘no its your mind’
My whole point is to be yourself and speak your truth from your experience, not from intellectual ideas that fit with you.
If you can see osho after his dead GREAT if you don’t need a living master GREAT if you read an osho book and you truly experience osho and not a mind projection GREAT.
I only quote osho because we share the experience and its an osho forum. Otherwise it is simply truth and has nothing to do with osho. These teachers you mention sound like osho because they are speaking truth and truth is truth is truth. Really i would suggest investigating and you will find osho said nothing new. He even said it himself (a lot)
the tibetans follow the teaching of buddha but fundamental to their path is a living master. They say without a living master the lineage is dead because you cant attain from books.
Milarepa burned all the books of his sannyasin rechungpa.
But as osho says ‘po’
If everything is divine why haven’t you attained enlightenment?
james morrison is geting a bit boring
Yes Chetna.. He accepts he is a buddha…Buddhas are boring..
( Osho is different .. He was the most spice buddha )
” If everything is divine why haven’t you attained enlightenment? ‘
That we should ask you James..
My apologies for being enlightened and boring.
Lets get juicy.
Lets get all the sannyasins together and physically remove the leaders?
My experience says its okay to be judgemental against people who are being judgemental.
It’s okay to be violent against people who are administrating violence. Basically anyone trampling on freedom should be stopped, even if we have to use the same methods they are using. Banning people from pune is sick and unenlighened. Osho was happy to have sheela back at his commune and attempted murderers.
I’m sorry chetna and kranti if this is too enlightened. Would you prefer it if I was an ignorant unloving pig?
So lets get a date and petition signed, lets take them to a public place and flog them for crimes against humanity and osho.
Anthony..Question for you.. James keeps talking about ‘ Mindloop ‘ which seems to be your area.. what is that?
Sorry, james, as I said-bored now
We are scared to death James!.. When we see enlightened people..
You see ! thats why we are clinging to Dead master like you said .. Suddenly when we see an elightened being like you we are scared to death..
Arent we Chetna?
Actually we were waiting for Swami Chaitanya Keerthi to share with us some important info..
Not sure why he has not posted.. may be seeing the way the posts are going for last two days he kept away..
Let us drop individual Ego shows..and share something fruitful..Let us wait for Keerthi..
@Kranti,l think your sharpness is not sharp enough
By ” speaking for myself ” l was refering to the comments made for me & James by you,again l remind you to wake up dear
and keep waiting for Godot
Ok..I accept..thats what you meant..
well, well, we used to have one guy here, kranti, who used to answer himself through several post. now we have jim morrison, and an American old hippie with a girlfriend called daredevil…. lovely
I do not even know to whom to answer.
Jim morrisomn says he is enlightened… (If I got you correctly, i did not have the patience to read all your posts)
Well I used top have a girlñfriend who considered Jim morrison enlightened ( the singer)… so why not?
after all megalomaniac tendencies are just underneath our minds. every disciple wants eventually to be the master. in the same way that every group participant expects one day to be a therapist… the same old game.
Now if anyone thinks that coming to write in this forum will have the effect of waking anyone up… is just fooling himself.
we are just here for entertainment. At least i am. I enjoy showing off my knowledge of Osho and his world and I enjoy discussing.
Never said I was enlightened.
Dearest chetna I always get the same thing when I talk to people, instead of getting answers they just verbally abuse me. I take it as a compliment but I wont waste anymore of your precious time. Please only stick to people you know are ignorant or dead and enlightened.
Surely some of osho sannyasins are enlightened and if its impossible why are you following his teachings?
My big ego statements are
Osho is dead.
There are many gurus.
The ego thinks that it’s master is the best.
The ego thinks that it’s master is the best.
he he he my Master is the best and most dearest, having a problem with that! and you are still boring…..
Chetna your exicting insightful responses has sent my kundalini snake out on multiple skateboards across the astral seas, it doesn’t know whether to sink or dance? Your wit is so subtle my third eye has hired contact lenses from lucifer to find it. Pan himself choked midway through his bong blowing and pussy licking when I informed him of your quick and plentiful replys that ‘i am still boring’ He said ‘who is this enlightened one you have encountered?’ maybe she can teach me to fart burp and fuck at the sametime as a way to transmit the smorgasbord of chakra transmissions.
Is she bill hicks reincarnated.’
please send me tickets for your show I’ll pay upwards to nothing.
James.. Think you are converting this forum into something else.. Please let us have healthy language..Using words to pull legs is different from Vomitting
Let us put a full stop to this James..What you did is big time Vomitting..Not message posting.. No one used to use such language in this forum earlier..
i like this guy morrison back… nice intelligent fellow. I like intelligent people. That is why i miss the henpecked Frank and the nemesis Andreas.
Kranti and Chetna are sweet people. but not sharp enough for a good debate. I like amrito when he gets pissed off… there is some energy there.
Shantam still can not figure him out. He is in germany, visiting churches, dipping his hands in holy water, not having such a good time, working for 2 euros per hour for a south indian guru, so he can buy ipods for his two kids…. Why?!!!
for once I agree with kranti james… lets keep it respectful
I did not read your whole post jim… that is why i did not see the last thing
Anthony
James not only declared himself enlightened..He also declared himself as GOd in the other thread..And finally Vomitted out all his enlightenment and Gogliness etc..now you know ..
By the way thanks for agreeing with me for once.. It is a honour when a man of P.H.D agrees with you
Thats reminds me..It is quite a while Shantam was actively posting messages.. Has he become busy with some work or what.? If possible i will call him up..
@Anthony l was a hippie ,not anymore ,been domisticated .
@Kranti ,looks like we need a new topic as you are waiting for some fella to come & rescue you
Daredevil
Not sure what you think you are up to..
We have been in this forum for reasonable time now and we all understand what we are talking about..
For your info , We had posts from Swami Chaitanya Keerthi about the subject of this thread and we were awaiting that
I dont need need new topic and i dont anyone to rescue me..Osho has already done the rescue work for me..Thanks for the understanding
Kranti ,Earliar you wanted Swami then Shantam , what am l up to? can you explain what that thread is ? as l cant see any thread in Swami’s posts,he seems to be taking a break from a camp and making you wait for the suspence,in that case there should be no posts until he finishes his camp.Wake up man.
Daredevil.. You are behaving like a alarm bell
guys, guys.
first daredevil. we do not use nicknames in this forum we all use our real name… except for oshobob who refuses to tall us who he is… the rest we are who we are. we know you have a girlfriend, were a hippie, were at the ranch… ok
I agree with jim morrison, except when he gets offensive… I think he sould also use hisreal name.
we are sophisticated people here. I always said we make people feel inferior with arguments, not by insulting… ha,ha
Ok Anthony ,Daredevil is a nickname ,Daryl David Samuel is my name on the passport , anymore personal details contact the U S social security service Dear .
Very important. We go around asking for SSN. Even then they wil tell once they had an alarm bell whch got enlightend and disappeared and now it is tryng to wake up people thru forums. Haha!
So good.
we have Daryl samuel alias daredevil
Kranti, alias the Indian sannyasin
Chetna. alias the Russian sannyasin
Shantam, alias the sacrificed Indian sannyasin
Anthony, alias the chilean professor
Andreas, alias the ex-german sannyasin
so we just need to know jim morrison, oshobob and what ever happened to Frank
我为我问个人的问题感到抱歉。然而我这样问
其实也是为了其它许许多多的人，而不只是为我自
己。你是谁？你为什么来到这个世界？
anthony, don’t forget me buddy haha!
Amrito alias the Dancing King
Oshobob
This is the translation i got from google..what are you trying to communicate?
” sense of our human , own right but only
Thyself , world come “
Dear Kranti you are god too:) so was hitler so its no big shakes.
as leonard cohen says there are no dirty words.
Please see osho on youtube strange consequences ‘fuck’ is his favourite word.
I was only saying back to chetna that i think shes boring I just tried to be more fun about it, sorry if that offended you all.
swear words are only offensive if you think sex is wrong. think about it?
jimy. the point is not dirty words , bu the aggressiveness behind.
Anthony is right there about swear words.
Kranti, that just goes to show you how poor those computer software translators are.
That Chinese translation above is from the first question in the first chapter of the famous Osho book, “I Am the Gate.” These are from Osho’s talks in 1971 in India, and he focuses on the question of “Who Am I?”, which seems to be appropriate to the identity queries shown here lately in this forum.
The original English of the question to Osho, translated into simplified Chinese above in my post is,
“I apologize for asking personal questions. I ask not just for myself but for many. Who are you and why have you come into the world?”
Then Osho goes on to answer that question in the remaining portion of the book. “I Am the Gate” was many early western sannyasins first introduction to Osho in the 70′s, and it is a classic. Still contemporary today, after all these years.
so, who are you oshobob?
MY God.. Oshobob
I thought it japaneses and google did a transalation for me..from japanese to english
There is no osho , there is no bob , there is no oshobob , there is no bobosho
Mm… bobosho sounds good..
May be we all are bobosho.. How is that Mr.Ant ?
Dear anthony I was smiling and dancing and loving when I used the words.
On the question of identity, why do you think masters change the name of their disciples?
Well, Kranti, that’s a good indication of how in the dark people of this world are about China, Chinese, and so on. Odd.
More people on this earth read and write in the above Chinese characters than in any other language. Spanish and English are the closest competetors, but they lag far behind Chinese in numbers.
The Japanese use Chinese characters for their written language, but also add “kana” symbols — phonetic script that was also originally derived from the Chinese. So you could get a rough translation from a Japanese software program, but poorly done, as was the case with yours.
Of course the most striking case in point is the word “osho”, which are two Chinese (and Japanese by transmission) characters. This was the reverential title given to the Chinese Chan masters, pronounced “heshang” in China. The Japanese pronounce it “osho”. Neither use roman letters — they use the identical characters, which mean literally, “respectful harmony”.
But it’s just a word, like all others — manmade. It simply indicates something, it doesn’t define that something completely. All the Oshos were different.
James, I would have to say your statement that the word “fuck” is Osho’s favorite word, is absolutely wrong. In fact, I don’t think I can remember Osho EVER using the word in his talks, unless he was repeating a western joke or something similar.
If you go to Osho.com’s website and sign up for their Osho Archive Library ($4.95/week) you can search any word and they will give you all the results, with the number of usage hits too. I would say the topmost favorite words Osho used were ones like “love”, “meditation”, “Zen”, etc. But sign up there on the OIF site, and find out for yourself. It’s a great adventure. Inexpensive too.
And Anthony, you ask “who are you oshobob?”…
Well, alias…
American from townsville, USA
not a sannyasin (formally anyway),
never been to Poona 1, Poona 2, or Poona 3,
been to the Ranch maybe 3 or 4 times as a visitor for a short time,
have a website http://www.livingworkshop.net, which highlights my interests of Osho, Zen, China, Daoism, etc.,
am not an undercover agent as I think possibly others on this forum are,
am the guy that sometimes agrees with you, and sometimes questions you, and sometimes pushes you beyond your boundaries to pen some rap songs,
am the guy that said he would “outfrank frank”, and it looks like I did, knocked him out of the ring it looks like,
and of course, that’s just the tip of the iceberg, there is much much more…
.. and lets not forget the pleasure for “boiled donkey dick” soup… that was a classic!
”
If you go to Osho.com’s website and sign up for their Osho Archive Library ($4.95/week) you can search any word and they will give you all the results, with the number of usage hits too. I would say the topmost favorite words Osho used were ones like “love”, “meditation”, “Zen”, etc. ”
Thanks Oshobob.. Amazing fact.. People go on living in their imaginations. about Osho. Especially when the imagination is negative it is only hurting the person who is carrying it.. And the ‘eggheads’ happily continue the journey thinking it is not..
I remember a famous japanese TV serial called ‘ Oshin ‘ about a lovely little girl..and her life
Wonder the words Oshin and Osho derived from same root..
For fun i searched and got this search results ..It says Oshin is a greek word..
” The Name Oshin is a girl’s name. The origin of the baby name Oshin is Greek with the meaning(s) depending on Gender/Origin being
Greek- Ocean, sea, from the sea ”
Also i got website which described Osho as a Buddhist Priest ( ? )
Funny ways on information flow and distribution..And how we hang on to various ‘ info ‘ we get from outside thinking they are very real.
“James, I would have to say your statement that the word “fuck” is Osho’s favorite word, is absolutely wrong.”
Actually he is right, but not completely. There is a very funny joke on this word where Osho says it is his favourite word which should replace God. It is absolutely hilarious! I was told though that it wasn’t Osho’s, he took from some comedian.
There is also a video. Maybe you can find on youtube.
Of course the way he says it still resembles his love, grace and compassion!
Dear oshobob of course I’m wrong.
How on earth would I know what osho’s favourite things are? I’ve never met him and even if i did…..I’m a bit more than surprised by the sannyasins I come across. Surely surely they are non serious and take all things lightly and don’t just believe because somebody said so, and get upset if you say something not according to their ideas, alas.
anyway please check ouy this chetna is right very good fun, i love showing it to people who think following primary school rules and christian morality is what an enlightened one should be.
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
James, I have this suspicion that you had a girlfriend who was a sannyasin and who tragically dumped you. Hence all this love for sannysins and women….
“Surely surely they are non serious and take all things lightly and don’t just believe because somebody said so, and get upset if you say something”
Surely you took Osho’s joke more than just a simple joke-still rubbing it… and by me simply saying you are boring you turn a simple joke into a vulgar vomiting…
So darling not sure who should relax and have a bit more fun, in a friendly way..
dear chetna is completely wrong, intuition huh, works sometimes, sometimes it don’t.
I was responding to the fact that everytime you respond to me it’s to say the same thing and that gets a little….:)
what’s wrong with being vulgar? I mean who says that refering to parts of the human anatomy is vulgar?
I was responding to the fact that everytime you respond to me it’s to say the same thing and that gets a little….:)
Good point, as you keep saying the same thing hence my comments
refering to parts of the human anatomy is vulgar?-not at all, but we are not on Anatomy lessons
James, can I ask you how old you are?
He did vomit due to age Chetna..
Sorry i meant ” He did not vomit due to age Chetna..”
Dear chetna you should visit ireland or cockney areas of london, your prudish ways will be in for a shock if you ever fancy the challenge?
I don’t know how old I am, I can’t remember being born so it would only be heresay and I try only to speak from my experience.
You must be really bored of osho, because he said the same thing for 35 years.
osho experienced the same kind of problems whenever he said something that wasn’t morally correct or challenging instead of answering or admitting they were wrong they would just call him names.
It’s an indictaion you can’t answer, or your ego has been hurt.
My understanding of sannyas is: to be proved wrong time and time again and thank the person for showing where you have fallen into a ditch.
James you say:
“osho experienced the same kind of problems whenever he said something that wasn’t morally correct or challenging instead of answering or admitting they were wrong they would just call him names”
Sooo I was right!! By this very statement James, you sound like a soon-to-be New-Age wishy-washy guru living off the works of Osho!
Look at how you are comparing yourself to Osho whether knowingly or unknowingly, but in fact, you’re spiritual ego has bitten you.
Why should anyothers here take what you say with more than grain of salt?? I can listen directly to Osho and what you say is just a rebranded remixed message, screwed up on many levels.
I think you might just fit in very well with “Osho Dhara” and be renamed Swami Osho James Saraswati~
Keerti,
Can you please put in five points, what James Morrison wants to convey/share/teach/preach.
I try to figure out from his words and they seems miles long and skin deep!
Even a simple question from Chetna, How old are you James?
and what a childish answer, thinking as if it is Zen-
” I don’t know how old I am, I can’t remember being born so it would only be heresay and I try only to speak from my experience.”
If this is not mind fuck than what else!.
I dont try to figure out what James tries to communicate..
Atleast Amrit had something to say although he couldnt convey because of editing..
James is beyond the point of return..Infact i even doubted he is not one guys but multiple guys posting messages..
He calls himself ordinary , elightened , god , this or that.. he says he doesnt know his age because he was never born..
He says some living masters are doing incredible work..etc etc ..If you ask him who those living masters are? he talks about Thilopa , Ikkyu etc
Either he has gone beyond time or are in a coma for the past 2500 years..
You guys have got a taste of Osho..
Now get a taste of James the Jesus ( From another thread – his reply to chetna )
” of course i don’t know osho,
i’ve never met him,
but that wouldn’t make difference,
I don’t even know anything.
my experience is, life is a mystery.
From my experiences I can understand what osho meant.
Otherwise I dismiss him until i experience it.”
Any more doubt guys?
P.S: Although there were few sensible lines in the same post about priests taking over Osho’s work type of stuff..But thats was written by another James clone..not the james who wrote the above lines..
This is the beauty of reading Osho^books, something opens so much on the mind level, one starts behaving as walking on the water.
People become enlightend, awakened, mediums, channels and in the simple ashram terminolgy, Cuckoos!
And forgive me, james, this i am not saying about you. Just trying to figure it out from the words.
I think it is a right time that you give a bit of introduction about yourself, in a non esoteric way.
How you came in contact with Osho and since when, have you visited Pune or Oregaon ranch, sannyasin, ex. sannyasin or like Prof. Thompson!
rest does not matter. like you are straight or gay kind of things.
Even when someone meets in a Bar, after initial few minutes one becomes curious about the other. Here you have shared so much of your wisdom and nobody knows,,, who is Mr, Morrison?
Correction. Who ARE Mr.Morrisons? Multiple people.
Seems to be if someone does come to Osho in search of Enlightenment ,its the wrong descision,bettter to go to Mahesh
Yogis, Punjajis or anybody, but Osho is a fake bcos these guys are here to be detectives, to find who relly you are but not see the truth,James Morrison sing them a lullaby ,these guys dont wnt to hear your Wake-up song.
why would you be looking for enlightnment in a forum anwayys?? Yea better go and do some TM with Mahesh, he’s good with the real “fakes” (the ones that use idiotic names like “Daredevil” on a sannyas forum-haha).
I think this is the weekend that Swami Arun is passing through Amrito’s city in Canada for some story-telling, satsang, and sannyas giving. As Arun’s team is doing a great job of creating videos for YouTube, and posting photos of the North American tour on their website, all here should check these out to see a contemporary Osho disciple spread the vision of his master.
Maybe even Amrito can make sure a YouTube video is made of some parts of the weekend event — I, for one, would love to see it — I have viewed all the others with great interest.
May the Force be with Arunji this weekend!
Yes my dear Amrito 1ly Daredevil was a nik name given by my byking buddies n somehow got stuck over the years , maybe l need to need to change it .n buddy we all come/go to Masters for this very thing called Enlightenment .probably u still in kindergarten and u need to go to these swami’s l guess.but we’ve been” blessedly – cursed ” by the man himself ,Bhagwan / Osho in physical body [ which is no big deal as l dont want to deviate the topic]
and this forum is meant for sanyasins ,which maybe by chance lam . So buddy lam going to be here as long as l want to be, as you priests will have to try better to shoo me away , as this is not an Ashram /Resort
Guys you are doing the same thing the inner circle is did it to Priya .watch man you are no different the guys in power
in Poona!
`I am God`
`I am a Wanker`
`I am Jim Morrison`
Being Angry about Enlightenment makes Me feel big.
Take me seriously or I will become nasty.
You are all Priests and I am wanking in your confession box.
What a Daredevil I am.
osho bob come to canada my friend, you can see the work happening “live”, and since you inspired me to do sannyas rap again, you get a special discount.
bhattara@uoguelph.ca
“”Put everything at stake. Be a gambler! Risk everything, because the next moment is not certain, so why bother? Why be concerned? Live dangerously, live joyously. Live without fear, live without wihtout without guilt, live without any fear of hell or any greed for heaven, just live!”
-Osho
Amrito my sanyas name is Jagran Tirtha , l somehow did loose the certificate ,but its etched in my being.
Yes Grocho marx seems you’r a communist from your entry.now l will retain my nik name , jus so l can Bug u guys!
sorry Amrito!
Amrito, that sounds like a great offer, if I had some cash to do it, I might be there — first, just to say that I had been to Guleph, Ontario. Now, how many people can say that? Not too many, compared to the 6 and 3/4 billion people who inhabit our earth.
You have to remember too, I’m an unemployed Osho website maker, which brings in no money at all — Arun could relate to this story I’m sure, he went through similar circumstances in his Nepal sannyas life. It took over 30 years of continual effort before those fruits of his labor started to develop substantially in the current wave of Osho centers and communes in Nepal, and elsewhere too — even Guleph, by God! Holy cow — Guleph! Who would’ve ever thunk it? Osho, Arun, Amrito, and …..Guleph !!!
Have a great weekend, and I wish you all the best !
Everyone has egos .. Some come out solid even in a forum.. with few inferiority complexes thrown in to add spice
Daredevil seems to be one such ego..
Even when no one is provoking him he likes to belivee people are there to provoke him.. asthough he is ‘ somebody ‘
He wants people to give a ‘ bad welcome ‘ so he can latch on to it and react.. although no one thought interms of welcoming him..
Even if No one cares he will keep saying he wants to wake up people.. as though he is a saviour
And because James to be right company he askes him ‘ James Morrison sing them a lullaby these guys dont wnt to hear your Wake-up song.”
‘ as though these guys are born to wake up people..
And that to wake up song.. Holy shit
Have never seen guys with so much self delusions..
” but we’ve been” blessedly – cursed ” by the man himself ,Bhagwan / Osho in physical body ”
” buddy lam going to be here as long as l want to be, as you priests will have to try better to shoo me away ”
who wants you to throw you out man!
So much for self importantance..
Disgusting display of ego..
Came across this link..
http://tribes.tribe.net/buddhadharma/photos/ee6d4570-0a38-474f-94fd-361282fad1b1
Seems to be good thoughts…Especially the one under ..Andreas will surely like
” An Extract from: Inconceivable Emancipation
From chapter 4: The Transcendental Critique of Religion ”
Where the thoughts about ‘ freedom ‘ is shared..good reading
Here the discussion seems to have deteriorated into gibberish.
In the meanwhile I have the following news to share, may be it can be a new thread.
Osho Trademarks finally cancelled in the US: Order released by Federal Court
On January 13, 2009, the Trials and Appeals Board of the United States Patent and Trademark Office in its strongly worded decision said that Osho cannot be trademarked. This decision was the culmination of a legal battle started nearly 10 years ago by Osho Friends International (OFI), an association of Osho meditation centers and disciples from all over the world.
Osho International Foundation (OIF), Zurich , filed a Notice of Appeal on March 12, 2009 with respect to the January 13, 2009 decision by the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board. OIF filed their appeal in the Court of Appeals of the Federal Circuit in Washington DC . The appeal was about the correctness of the decision rendered by the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board on January 13.
Later on, OIF decided to withdraw the appeal and filed for withdrawal in the Court of Appeals on June 19, 2009. Osho Friends agreed for the withdrawal. Recently the Federal Court released the order dismissing the Appeal. The trademarks of Osho in the US now finally stand cancelled. It is expected that the cancellation may soon be reflected on the website of USPTO where the trademarks had been listed.
Free downloadable Osho audio-video discourses will soon be live again @ http://www.oshoworld.com.
Please wait. Thank you for your patience.
Thank you Swami Chaitanya keerthi..for sharing this.
Although i dont have much claity about these issues and still think interms of ‘ One Pune 3 ‘ kind of scenarios i trust it is very siginificant from your stanpoint and will strengthen your effots to keep osho’s vision alive..
Having said i have learned from this forum , to look at different view points and different possibilities for Osho’s vision.. i am more mature now..
Thanks for your Love and sharing..
With Love
Kranti..
Swami Chaitanya Keerthi
And our apologies for reducing the sharing to a gibbersih.. We were aware this started happening few days earlier ..and we were not comfortable also..
I mentioned in this few posts earlier also and felt we didnt give you right timing and space to share this valuable info earlier since so much gibberish was happening.. Our apologies for that..
With Love
Kranti
Swami ,Shall we take it that OFI & OIF are now one ? now we can rejoice to that together ! now there seems to be light at end of the tunnel !
Beloved Daredevil
We have always been One pretending not to be One–this is what Maya is all about. The light at end of tunnel is also Maya, just like horizon. But we can rejoice any way. Why not? As Osho asks : Won’t you Join the Dance?
Yes Bhagwan!
Always Always YES to Osho..
Would like to see some positive comments / reactions / posts from Andreas , Anthony , Shantam , Oshobob , Chetna , Amrito and if possible frank..
Guys ..Let us join the dance..
l have never considered myself otherwise,Lets Dance in maya Swami !
Beloveds of Osho,
Here is a quotation from http://www.mysamasati.com
Poetry of these words is enough to inspire the heart….
“A single moment is enough! It is not a question of being with a master for a long time; time does not enter into it. It is not a question of quantity, of how long you have lived with the master. The question is how deep you have loved the master, not how long you lived with the master — how intensely, passionately you have become involved with the master…not the length of time, but the depth of your feeling. Then a single moment of awareness, of heart wakefulness, a single moment of silence…and the transmission, the transmission beyond all scriptures.
Osho”
After reading the report of Swami Keerti, i wish to cheer up the other party too. I hope they have learnt the lesson in humility and this is the right time to hug again. Football match is over, time to rejoice, exactly the Master says.
Shantam
” After reading the report of Swami Keerti, i wish to cheer up the other party too”
What do you mean? Am i missing something?
Dear all thank you for your beautiful words. They made me chuckle and rejoice.
Thank you shantam for your beautiful quote, reminds me of the zen disciple who met his master on his death bed and became the torch bearer..
dear keerti I LOVE the irony of washington dc battling for osho against the priests, soooo beautiful.
dear daredevil what a beautiful quote the curse/blessing. One of my favs is: ‘the suffering of enlightenment’ all the people i’ve met on the path wouldn’t wish it on anyone. as ram dass says ‘it’s not that you try to awaken others, in fact you have no moral right to but if they decide to come up for air their is nothing in you that would prevent it’
dear kranti thank you for saying i am multi dimensional
dear shantam i hope you stop trying to pin me down.
my understanding is my understanding i don’t think it is right or wrong. My understanding is you cannot attain enlightenment by thinking about it. Words can’t explain it. I don’t in anyway take this forum seriously. I’m on holiday.
Dear mr marx do you think I’m a coward? If so it could be possible to arrange a physical fight if your up for it?
Dear kranti I am a human being osho was a human being thus we share experiences or don’t you think human beings share experiences?
A question for you all, I’m very interested in your answers: do you think you can attain enlightenment through osho’s methods? (please don’t answer there is nothing to attain)
” After reading the report of Swami Keerti, i wish to cheer up the other party too”
When i wrote the above sentence, it was that culture of ancient India, where one wishes all the luck for the opponent too. One’s victory should not be the defeat of the others. Just the lessons to play better and fair..
James question can bring many answers. i am curious too. ” do you think you can attain enlightenment through osho’s methods? ”
Enlightenment or enLIDLment, i am more interested to figure out,” can one attain’s love while listening love songs or reading love stories or simply looking at free pornos on the net.”
I do not want to disturb the party here, but if I have understood Keerti rightly he states, that the tradmark question finally is decided upon. But as far as I understand the subject, there is no reference to copyrights in this. Trademark is a different subject all together.
For my dearest daredevil,
The birds song sings the mantra of wonder
I plunder the moment like a joker on hellium
my pistol is still smoking from killing buddha
and my hand still tickles from slapping osho in the face with his slipper
I cry one thousand tears to create a rainbow to see my self
and still i know nothing
i will always know nothing
and finally that makes me happy
Methods are methods..It depends on the person using the methods..
Just take a look at your inside and everyone around you..The first and foremost thing everyone needs is Catharsis..with so much garbage inside..Can we disagree?
Osho always said techniques are only 50%..The remaining 50% is understanding..Thats why he spoke so much..The combination of understanding and methods will take us towards awakening
Osho also said awareness has to become a way of life..We need to be aware every moment..
I have been listening / reading to Adya , mooji also. They seems to be very beautiful & authentic teachers
I recently read Nisardatta. he says ‘ He tirelessly looked inside ‘
Semms we just have to go on looking..looking..looking
Dear shantam
“can one attain’s love while listening love songs or reading love stories or simply looking at free pornos on the net.”
-you do know me!
I am sure it is a bore for everyone, but OFI’s “victory” means anyone in the USA can now use the word “Osho” to sell anything : Osho Massages, Osho Aromatherapy Oils, Osho Tantrika Condoms, Osho Jeans and Swimwear, anything.
Perhaps the US courts’ decision just reflects their hatred of Osho. After all it was the US Government that murdered him.
Nowadays i also see a new age teachinsg are very direct..The immediately focus on making people understand that there is no ‘ Me’… It is so plain and simple to see the falsity of the ‘ Me’.. The new age teachers dont teach any techniques but ask us to just understand..
My own experience is understanding & awareness in daily life can really take us some good distance..But once you reach a strength in awareness i get struck..May be thats where Osho taks about the use of methods to go deeper..
I also feel the need for intensity and channelising all the possible energy for awakening..If most of our energy is wasted in trivial things it may not be possible to too far on the path..
These are just my thoughts..Will be greatful to see your thoughts..
You are right Alok John
It is like giving a beautiful flower in the hands of a moneky.. US commercialism will destry Osho vision & name in US..
May be someone needs to write a book titled ‘ Osho’s vision crucified in Obama’s US’
Nothing wrong in the trademark issue as such..But it might have well gone to the wrong hands ( country )
Let us wait and watch..
Dear andreas, I think trademark covers the area of owning osho, but copyright simply says osho should be recognised as the author of his works. So you will be out of line if you use osho’s words or meditations and claim them as your own. Where as trade mark means you can’t use them at all unless you have permission from the people who own osho’s name?
so you are now legally allowed to say you are doing osho meditations when you do osho meditations and you don’t need permission from any priests or mediums claiming special connection to osho’s disembodied formlessness
Dear kranti,
YES!
Dear A.J.
Osho condoms FANTASTIC where can I get them?? will they light up at the end when you shoot your load? Osho would love it.
” Perhaps the US courts’ decision just reflects their hatred of Osho. After all it was the US Government that murdered him.”
May be it is a planned decision which will enable them to degrade Osho’s name further.. It will give them a freedom to do more damage..
I am really sorry i am sounding so negative..After seeing what happned to Osho in US i feel atleast we need to protect his vision by coming together..Do we really need to hand over Osho’s vision also to US in the name of free trademarks..It is a question ‘ when ‘ for free copyrights also..
I am very worried..really really worried. If someone can tell / prove me i am wrong i will be happy
Dearest Kranti,
Freedom means to be free to be disicplined too…I’ve met many sannyasins who yearn to follow a structure but are trapped by their idea of freedom. It can be very helpful to follow a path in a focussed way. Is this what you mean?
Andreas,
One can see from your previous posts that you have a good understanding about the trademark and copy right issues.
can you share your commentry, how you perceive the further strategy of the both sides.
It has nothing to do with spirituality or no mind, just the legal, logical and psychological perspective.
Somewhere it should be as simple as MJ’s mother gets the custody of his children and biological mother the visitation rights and the thug father should be left miles away.
copyright or no copy right, one can get the complete lecture series of Osho in Koregaon Park @ 35 Rupees (52 cents) per CD.
James..which post you are reffering to.?. think I used the word freedom in the trademark related post..
Dear kranti
osho said freedom means the other must have the right to fuck you up or what kind of freedom is it (i’m paraphrasing of course) does this answer your question?
” copyright or no copy right, one can get the complete lecture series of Osho in Koregaon Park @ 35 Rupees (52 cents) per CD.”
Then why all the fuss people make Shantam?
James wrote “Where as trade mark means you can’t use them at all unless you have permission from the people who own osho’s name?”
In practice people have run Osho meditations for years without asking permission from OIF. However OIF want the trademark so that if there is misuse of Osho’s name, eg in the examples I give, they could stop it.
I have heard for example of Osho Massage parlours in Thailand. In such a case a letter from the lawyers of OIF would probably be enough to change the name of the establishment.
As usual i dont understand you James.. I am not able to understand to which post of mine you are replying?
I didnt talk anything about freedom except Us Govt freedom in using Osho trademark.Is that what yo are refering to?
Dear kranti i was refering to this
“I also feel the need for intensity and channelising all the possible energy for awakening..If most of our energy is wasted in trivial things it may not be possible to too far on the path..”
i mean even if you feel like being a monk or nun then do it.
Buddha for example was psychotically disicplined that was all part of his totallity
” osho said freedom means the other must have the right to fuck you up or what kind of freedom is it ”
James.. Osho never said anything like that.. He always talked about responsible freedom where you dont step on someone else’s freedom..
James
My own understanding is ‘ energy’ is very much needed for spritual path. You need very high intensity & energy.. You cant waste energy in trivial things and hope to go too far in awakening..
Perhaps this explains why most of us dont go too far in awakening inspite of our efforts..
Beyond a point it is all about energy not about understanding anything..
Dear kranti, my fault the posts were coming in thick and fast, and iwas answer 2 at once.
I mean freedom to the us government to fuck us up! freedom is freedom? no?
dear a.j. funny enough i was just reading osho tell a prostitute to keep it up! Takes all sorts, if those masseurs are practising with awareness and osho is their master who has any right to impede on their freedom? you?
Shantam requested everyone to talk about ‘using methds for enlightenment ‘ and Alok came up with a good thought on how US can misuse Osho trademark.. So two kinds o posts started running simultaneously
Swami Chaitanya Keerthi hinted we may need to use this topic in a new thread.. Will the editors move the topic to new thread or Swami Keerthi has to send it to editors?
Keerti has mentioned two things in his post, both of which are not much of any change, as far as I can see.
The first is that Osho Int. filed an appeal in the trademark case in the US courts, and then withdrew it. So, nothing has changed there from the original decision of 6 months ago.
The second is that the Osho audios (massive numbers) and videos (almost nothing) on Oshoworld.com are still frozen, but will be back up someday. So, again, no change there either, so far anyway.
For some reason, there seems to be a flurry of exitement here about, well….nothing. Everything’s pretty much the same in Osho Land, as far as I can see.
And Andreas is right, the trademark case has nothing to do with the copyright issue, which is the subject that is the bone of contention for the Oshoworld availability of Osho media content. So, Keerti has given no explanation at all as to why those pages were pulled down (other than a copyright problem) and why they are some day going to be put back up. It remains the copyright issue, which is the big lollapalooza. Still a mystery to all but maybe a few insiders.
On the ‘Maya’ thing, I would have to agree with the venerable swamiji, that all this public contention between the Osho sannyasins is nothing but drama (my interpretation of everyone ‘is One’) — they are really in cahoots. And there is no light at the end of the tunnel — whatever tunnel that may be — that’s a dreamworld too, as if there is some Lotus Paradise that is a goal here. Forget it. There’s just another battle looming.
And for Alok John, who seems to always tilt towards that dismal, dark, and dank side of the subject for some reason, there has never been a shred of evidence that Osho was murdered by the US government. Except for Osho saying so, and a couple of sycophant disciple doctors who ambigously concurred with their master. Other than that, no evidence whatsoever. Nice try.
I am greatly pleased though, to hear Sw. Keeti say that his Osho audio mp3′s will be back up “soon” — that is the best news I’ve heard for a long time. I just hope “soon” is not like when Jesus said, I will return “soon” — it’s been 2,000 years and half the world is STILL waiting for the Jewish savior from Galilee to show up. And Jews tend to be faster at doing things than Indians are.
Jamie boy cant say nothin
& for the rest of my buddies ‘ that the maya goes on ever after ‘
Dear oshobob I’m presuming you’ve spent a lot of time trying to see through the veil of illusion because masters such as osho have revealed to us there is a deeper dimension to life. We trust them because we don’t know it ourselves.
I trust osho when he says he experienced all the problems of being poisoned. If he isn’t self aware no one is. I doubt it’s coincidence he experienced all these after being held illegally by the us government. because we know how pure they are.
Dearest kranti, that is the beauty of osho he contradicted himself so many times, if and when i come across the exact quote again i may still be here to let you know. but he did say it.
but this gets us to an interesting point, he said both, so which is true? My feeling is if you don’t give the other total freedom, to go ‘wrong’ or against us, then it isn’t real freedom, subtley we are trying to control them. i.e. unless they behave according to US then we w ill reject them on a subtle level.
as ram dass says the moment you want something from someone, even if its that they become a better person, you are a condtional lover.
what do you think?
The Freedom which we talk about is an individuals freedom limited to his world..He can eat what he wants , do what he wants to do..and grow in whatvere way he wants..
Every individual has that right.. It is basically nothing but reclaining the individuality which was given to society as a compromise in the name of morality etc.
That does not mean you allow someone else to interfer with your freedom..Thats where Osho differentialted netween freedom with responsibility
He always said..Dance…But dont step on to someone else foot..
I dont think Osho ever said something like what you say..’ one has freedom to damage others also ‘
I do not think that Osho ever contradicts himself ever. He is just always talking to different people, so every person needed a different response. Let’s always remember that all of his books are transcriptions of live talks…..
Recent article on the CIA and assassination…
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-scahill/the-democrats-selective-a_b_233708.html
If the Government killed people under Clinton/Bush/Obama, I think they killed people under Reagan
dear prem u nearly brought me to tears, u finally made me realise there is no hope with words…..thank you.
First off, whats wrong with being contradictory.
second, osho said a man who doesn’t contradict himself is retarded! he must, if he is growing, contradict himself.
third, every book or teaching of osho’s i’ve ever come across he says he is a man of contradictions so that no one can make a religion out of his teachings.
i feel all the contradictions lead back to: find your own truth and don’t rely on the words of others? there are as many paths as there are people.
but please show me where osho says he is a man of consistency and his teachings are ordered and cannot be contradicted.
dear kranti
osho said (in light on the path) you should fight people tooth and nail. I will perhaps find the passage on freedom I’m refering to.
Yes James.. Osho could have said you need to fight for your right & individuality.. Do you interpret that as ‘ Freedom to hurt ( f… ) others ‘?
Prem is right James.. Osho never contracdicted himself from HIs angle.. The contradictions looked like contradictions from our angle.. When we look at them using our mind rooted in duality..He always said what looks like contradictions are actually complimetaries.. In that sense He never contradiced himself..
Alok John
Whether they actually killed Osho or not whatever they did to HIm was close enough to killing Him. They atleast killed Him in spirit..Thats enough proof..
But let us be greatfu that they didnt finish him off in a single attempt..We wouldnt have got PUNE2 which revived Osho and His Vision so beautiflly..
Dear kranti, yes we are on our own interpretations, for sure. Personaly thats why I feel you need a living master.
My understanding is that is exactly what osho talked, for example the buddha contradicted himself, so osho says. But all the priests try as hard as they can to say he doesn’t contradict himself, in exactly the same way you are trying to say osho didn’t.
osho said the bible is the holiest book ever written
osho says the bible isn’t holy.
that is contradictory. if you don’t think it is you don’t understand what the word means and we need to find other words to talk about it.
how do you get round the fact that osho said he is contradictory. he even contradicts that!!
really, the mind can interpret anything into whatever it wants.
As i said I’M UTTERLY UTTERLY BLOWN AWAY by followers of osho trying to convince me he has no contradictions.
whats the fear?
No fear James.. You are looking at Osho’s words..We are looking a little beyond that because of Love towards master..So contradictions dissolve in Love..Alchemy
Dont get blown away that quickly.. Be there to dance and rejoice
ok dear kranti
osho says
you should never get married. he also says unless you get married you will never know true love.
which is it?
osho says only love is the true path to enlightenment and not awareness. he says awareness is the highest path and transcends love
which is it?
osho says one should wait without doing anything. and he says you can’t just wait without doing anything.
which is it.
osho says all the devontional practices he gave were just esoteric bullshit to get you interested
which is it?
James: you must be very interested in Osho, but feel intellectually superior. You already know it all.
Some things in the relationship between a master and a disciple you will only understand, once you have been initiated by the master. Your mind can work as hard at its best to ‘get it all’, but mind is the problem in the very first place.
All of these forums are mental masturbations for a few souls.
Namaste.
Prem.. Forum can also be used for sharpening brains..for bringing people together and few other postive things..It need not be meant for mental masturbations only.
James
Osho never said dont get married ..He said love should be the primary thing and marriage can be a by product.. He said it in different ways..
He said love and awareness as paths to enlightenment.. What he meant as love is not what you are referring to.. The awareness & love he is talking about are one and the same..These are qualities of higher level of conciousness
Osho never said ..wait and dont do anything..No.. He said the waiting should be with awareness and without restlessness. He devised techniques for throwing out junk and create a ‘ waiting’ which will be receptive for the divine / silence to enter you..
Osho never gave any devotional practices.. If you mean the information from different religions he used..Yes he used them to attract people. He also knew every religion has only one essence.. So he didnt say anything contracdictory..
He could have conveyed certain things without using Krishna or Jesus names.. But most of the people would not have realized that what Osho says is also the same as what Krishna & Jesus said .. He allowed people to see that the core of every path is the same by talking about every other master.
Dear prem
I have been a sannyasin for 18 years but that has nothing to do with it. You didn’t explain how these are not contradictory statements.
Dear kranti
it is impossible to talk to you
you simply dismiss oshos statements as not having been said by him when i have heard him say them and read them.
simply denying osho said these things doesn’t show they are not contradictory statements.
I remember the idiots close to osho trying to cover up the photo of osho drinking booze…shame that christian ideology infiltrates to the deepest core of oshoworld
it is impossible to talk to you James.. You only aim seems to be talking against Osho and Sanyasins by sticking to words and refusing to look beyond words….I Dont know why you are doing it.. As long as you are satisfied with your posts it is alright…
bizarre,
my main criticism of the moral right on this forum is they believe without knowing. osho isn’t alive to talk against.
You don’t seem to be sannyasins, because you are believing in an orgainsation or trying to support an organisation. a sannyasin is against organisations (to quote osho)
osho did drink booze. I’m not speaking against him. It may appear so if you have christian based view of what spirituality is i.e. no drugs, no swear words, no gays, etc
“sannyasin is against organisations ”
sannyasins are not against anything.. Who told you sannyasin need to be against organisations..What you are talking about is Hippies not sannyasins..Dont mix up both
” osho did drink booze..” were you there to mix drinks for him? And you talk about blind belief of others..
Dear kranti
osho quotes
Sannyas is basically a rebellion about all structures, hence the difficulty
to define. Sannyas is a way of living life unstructuredly. Sannyas is to
have a character which is characterless. By ‘characterless’ I mean you don’t
depend anymore on the past. Character means the past, the way you have lived
in the past, the way you have become habituated to living — all your habits
and conditionings and beliefs and your experiences — that’s what your
character is. A sannyasin is one who no longer lives in the past or through
the past; who lives in the moment, hence, is unpredictable.
the heart sutra
All other efforts have failed. It was inevitable, because the failure was
built-in. They were all structure-oriented, and every kind of structure
becomes heavy on the heart of man, sooner or later. Every structure becomes
a prison, and one day or other you have to rebel against it.
the heart sutra
http://www.oshophotos.com/worldtour/crete-cup-tea/
follow this link to see osho drinking alcohol
Do you seriously think drinking is wrong for a master?
If yes where did you get your ideas from?
osho also tried smoking.
dear kranti
from my heart to yours
http://www.oshophotos.com/ranch/ranch-welcome/
James.. i didnt deny the words you are using.. In the same quote you posted Osho says ” Sannyas is to
have a character which is characterless “.. He also said Sanyasins should be ‘ Neither for nor against anything ” & ” They need to respond according to present moment ”
As always you are right with ‘ Osho’s words ‘ ..but you are not looking at the context or the way Osho meant certain things..
Again i am not saying it is wrong for the master to drink.. he would have surely done it for fun or poke someone ..Knowing Osho he will say he drank even if he didnt just to hit at people.. But i am also aware that someone like Osho there will not be any need for drinking
I trust you meditate regularly..Once we reach a certain depth in silence we will not need alchohol for relaxing us.. then what is the point of that ‘ silence & peace ‘?
When even a little bit of silence can make someone stop drinking what about complete awakening.. there will not be any need..
I will tell you something more.. Osho not only gave a photo session with a drink in hand . He also said enlightened people should have sex also once in a while.. and He also said he picked up many women in trains..So anyone having very esoteric ideas about enlightenment will get hit on the head..
Just look for that mischievous smile in His eyes when He says something like that
Osho had His ways..
Osho is Osho.. He is beyond words..His own words.
Dont look at the finegr pointing the moon.. He said it exactly for you James.. thats why i look like a bigot for you..
James..Thank you very much for the last link
That Osho photo where he Namasteys walking in white Robe is my favourite photo..
Someone wrote in one of the books about Osho..( Not in exact words )
Just with the way He namasteyed people infront of Him he raised the level of dignity of human beings far higher.. He respected the divinity in every human being..
Just look at Him namasteying and the totality..
James..this is the new saying for you
Dont look at the bigot speaking.Look into the meaning .hahaha
James..this is the new saying for you
Dont look at the bigot speaking.Look into the meaning of what the bigot says.hahaha
Dear Kranti
I remember osho saying he will be difficult to drop because he is so beautiful!!!!!!!!
Forgive me, these little black marks on the screen portray no feeling to melt into….
My understanding of what you were saying….please allow me…?
I feel (ahem) a subtle condemnation of alcohol and sex. As if osho wouldn’t really be doing them for their own sake but for something else HIGHER.
Osho has talked about this, that tantra, even tantra is subtley wrong because it uses women (or men) as a technique. Where as the bauls simply love. The dancers dance in love and alcohol.
For me there is no higher or lower or even spirtuality, there is only life and it is all beautiful.
Why can’t osho be drinking because he wanted a drink or enjoyed it?
What do you think?
Possible..I am not denying it. I generally said someone like him will not have a need.. I honestly dont know why an enlightened master living in cosmic bliss 24/7 needs drinks? what purpose will it serve?
In number of things he used say things against himself just to hit at people.
I understand that he also did some image deconstruction in the later years .the Robes , diamonds and four letter jokes , and name changes may well be part of that effort..You never know..
The photo with Osho and ‘booze’ was done during a photo session in Crete/
Greece. Rafia gave him a glass of wine to hold for a photo. Osho was also holding a motorbike. Neither was Osho drinking the wine nor driving the motorbike. Not that it matters. ….Gurdjieff was enlightened and was helding regular feasts with his disciples. The other photo with Osho and a glass of champagne was in his plane on arrival in the US.
Prem..Heard Gurdjieff used drink regularly..Thats also a method used by him or real? Like you said it doesnt matter..just as a non-serious question..There is Gurdjieff bar also near pune resort..
Dear kranti
thank you
here is where i am coming from:
How do you know an enlightened person lives in bliss 24/7? (its a question i’m asking myself) Do you know osho and other masters aren’t lying and they only say it so you will stay on the path? Like the father lying to the kids that he has presents because its the only way to get them out of a burning house.
If, IF, you don’t know, then is it not better to just speak from your experience than from an assumed point of view which you haven’t experienced?
When gampopa approached Milarepa the great tibetan mystic the first thing milarepa asked him to do was eat meat and drink booze! This was to smash his pre-conceptions about what it is to be spiritual. one cannot be with a master if your tea cup is full. Or whatever they say will be twisted to fit with what one thinks is the way?
Good points James. I also think sometimes what a hell am I following and why?
About drinking: I think Osho is wonderful. I took his advice in doing dynamic everyday. I never heard him saying do not drink or smoke etc, but I hear him saying meditate! Hence, I started meditating daily. After 6 months of Dynamic I cannot drink anymore! I simply cannot. The body rejects it. Sometimes I would try an expensive French wine or a beer I loved-nothing goes down well. The body rejects it-full stop. Hence, I am not even trying anymore.
Now, the doctors told me to eat meat due to health reasons. Again I stopped all meat and fish when started meditating. I cannot! I have tried many times and get poisoned each time! 50 gr of meat make me ill, absolutely ill.
What is it?
I think the body has its own language which I never heard before. Meditation makes one very sensitive….
Hence, my comment to you earlier about love and friendliness arising out of meditation.
Some alchemy happens which I personally know nothing of.
James..I respect your question.. But it comes from your mind again..
Chetna has beautifully described it..” After 6 months of Dynamic I cannot drink anymore! I simply cannot. ”
I didnt try Dynamic for 6 months. But i practiced awareness and mindfulness for 15 years..
Now Everytime i drink it is such a tragedy.. There is such a conflict between one part of me trying to be very aware and the chemical trying to have its effect..
( Man! you must see me when i am drunk.. I am such a wreck instead of the typical guy who dances after drinking.. i just cannot enjoy drinking anymore except for the occasional glass of beer which i take for its taste not for getting high )
I also understood the alchohol never gives you beautiful silence..It just makes you dull and unaware of everything..
Once we understand the difference between Postive silence which comes out of Awareness and negative unaware dullness of senses which is given by alchohol what will you choose?
And when you have tasted awareness and silence , you naturally become greatful to Osho for showing that path.. And it is also very natural for me to trust that Osho will be in 24 / 7 bliss. Not because He says it..But because he has given me the taste of silent heart in which He lives..
Dear chetna
fantastic, hammered by the master into shape! ha ha
wonderful.
Dear kranti, what’s wrong with the mind?
It served osho so beautifully.
Your experience is beautiful but it is your experience.
Trust is beautiful, but for me there is no need for it to have a direction.
My experience was just the opposite! I never used to like alcohol and I spent years meditating after sometime I found I loved drinking when I tried it again.
It opened me up, I just love, love, love when I drink, on the contray to your experience I become sharper and my senses are heightened.
There have been many drunken masters.
All I’m saying is there are no fixed rules or morality.
thank you for your comments and love
James.. Mind is Mind.. Otherwiese you and me will not be listening to Osho to understand how to go beyond Mind or to attain No Mind ..
And when i talked about drinks i certainly didnt talk from the view point of morality.. it was from the viewpoint of need for using chemicals for relaxation..especially when meditation is available..
I am not making a judgement here..But when you say ” It opened me up, I just love, love, love when I drink ”
Then i feel like asking ( with due respect though ) ” what are you doing infront of Osho when you are in such love with drinking ? ”
It is very surprising that you always talk against blind belief even if it is Osho.. now you are finding support for your drinking by quoting about drunken masters.. You see what i mean.. This is what mind is..
Dear kranti,
thank you for your comments but I will no longer be posting as I realise how meaningless it is posting (from the point of view of being completely misunderstood).
The mind likes to argue and have something to talk about/against.
As someone pointed out to me, todays seekers are against the mind in the same way people were against the body a few hundred years ago.
I’m not justifying anything, just trying to have fun talking but on this forum it is impossible.
drop all ideals/ideas
to think you need to relax or be spiritual or osho is right or even there is enlightenment is mind.
As milarepa says there is no attainment, no buddha, no meditation, no meditator and no nirvana.
If you can understand how ‘when I’m hungry I eat and when I’m tired I go to sleep’ contains all the teachings of all the masters then you know where I’m coming from.
love
I agree totally on your last point..
You dont have drop out of posting for that..I dont think anyone has misunderstood to the extent you think.. Sometimes we all go by first impression and slowly change..
But mind is not that easy..We dont claim that we are beyond mind or agansit mind and all.. We are sharpening ourselves along the way..
One person i know used to tell” We are all Fish out of water Everyone struggling in different degress..thats all “
” todays seekers are against the mind ”
Very true..But that is part of the journey
To start with we are too much identified with our mind..
Then we think mind is rootcause of all problems and try to disidentify from it
Then we understand mind is mind like any other part of your body ..so you let it be and be indifferent
So you start moving into a realm of beyond / Body mind’ gradually..
Upto this i can say as i have experienced ..Beyond that i dont know anything
Hi firends,
Communs are made and disract around a master. It is a part of outside system. So we need not to think that it should be going to work as it would be in oshos time.