Beloved Friends
Love
Please forward this to any satsang teachers you know.
The time has come to start a Satsang Teachers Association. The purpose is to ensure that satsang teachers present a rational and useful teaching that fits with the shared understanding of Unity, and that their conduct is harmless and helpful.
Satsang teachers need to have equal or higher standards of conduct than other professionals. We are working with people at the deepest level and must first ensure that we do no harm. Devotion and surrender are key spiritual methods but they are better directed towards each moment of Life than to the teacher. When teachers allow or encourage followers to fixate on the guru an unhealthy climate develops that can easily lead to abuse or misuse of power. Spirituality has always been plagued with authoritarian abuses or misuses of power, even in enlightened traditions, and this must come to an end.
Unity is a 600 page divine message that outlines the way forward for the new dawn of conscious civilization that is about to unfold. The 2009 edition of the book is online at www.ishwara,com and needs to be read in its entirety to understand all of its implications. But some key principles include:
1. Consciousness is all there is and therefore I am That.
2. Consciousness is both immanent in all that exists and transcendental to existence.
3. The transcendental aspect of consciousness is eternal and uncreated.
4. The transcendental aspect of consciousness is the Source of existence.
5. The universe and all existence has a beginning and an end.
6. The universe and all existence is consciousness manifest. Source is consciousness unmanifest.
7. Source has the power and intelligence to design, create and dissolve the universe and all existence.
8. Fully enlightened ones are the highest manifestation of consciousness on Earth.
9. Fully enlightened ones are not masters in their own right, but instruments for Source to work though.
10. Fully enlightened ones can dissolve in the mystery of transcendental consciousness with no trace of individuality remaining. They merge completely with the One when they transcend the body and mind in the deepest dissolution. This does not give enlightened ones access to the power and knowledge of Source that knows how to create the universe.
11. The ultimate cosmic mysteries are know only to Source.
12. Everything is made of Source and everything and everyone returns to Source.
13. When fully enlightened ones leave the body for the last time in mahaparanirvana, their individual soul dissolves into the mystery of Source forever. Now you are truly the eternal One that you have always been with no trace of any distinction.
14. Spirituality will become much more widespread in the near future. The higher understanding of satsang teachers has to become accessible to many people who are presently involved with conventional religions. For these people, who are the vast majority, the concept of God is essential. There can be no religion for most people without God. Therefore the concepts of God and Source are identical in Unity. Please do not confuse the word God with its past limitations. In Unity God means the eternal transcendental consciousness that is both the Source of existence and is manifest in all that exists. Ultimately you are God.
The essential methods of transformation are awareness and acceptance. All other spiritual qualities including love and compassion flow from awareness and acceptance. There are many variations on how these qualities are developed and most of them are good. Whatever works is the litmus test, and naturally this varies for different people and different stages of development. All most all methods have some utility for someone sometime.
Teachings which insist there is nothing to do and you are already free are a form of pseudo advaita that brings spirituality into disrepute. Some teachings fixate on one technique while others deny the value of any technique. Clearly these are limited and unhelpful approaches. Please see Unity for much more on this topic.
Newer seekers need to develop awareness and acceptance through practice. Meditation is the means to develop awareness. One watches the inner experience until awareness grows sufficiently to rest in Beingness, Eventually awareness becomes strong enough to explore itself and to verify experientially that consciousness is the core reality. Meditation is discouraged by advaita teachers who see it as a form of separation or ego effort. They are mistaken. Meditation is tuning in and connecting consciously to Now. It is the heart of spiritual experience and is essential. The self enquiry method of Who am I is a powerful and ancient meditation technique.
Acceptance is increased by giving up the ongoing fight with reality in which most people are frequently engaged. There are various methods of developing acceptance, including the work of Byron Katie. But essentially acceptance follows your growth in awareness and is enhanced by recognizing that Things are like this now. And watching how resistance to Life increases suffering while acceptance of experience reduces anguish.
These key principles form the basis of the shared understanding of Unity. Please email me at maitreyacentre@ishwara.com if you have any questions or comments.
Love
Maitreya
Okay, so Maitreya was a sannyasin who didn’t actually have very high standards formerly in life, but now at least seems to see the importance of not ripping off those who might be attracted to a teacher, etc. And in the way of these things he is a moderately successful teacher.
However he seems to think that not only all ex sannyains who are teachers, or even sannyasins, or even non sanyasins are “teaching” advaita or unity. In fact they are teaching from all sorts of eclectic traditions, as Osho himself used to do.
The profession of a spiritual teacher is like all the helping professions, subject to various forms of abuse, and various strange standards.
It therefore brings into question the whole “business” of being a formal teacher. Maybe it is best to go forth into the world letting the “situation” one creates with others be the teacher, rather than sitting in an authority seat in a disciple play.
Oh Oh….
Association of Spiritual call girls and boys!
Thanks for the laugh today Maitreya. You have such a good imagination.
Bullshit has always been bullshit, and always will be bullshit.
It,s all bullshit. Consciousness is consciousness. Imagination is imagination. Bullshit is bullshit.
Flush the bullshit down the toilet, and what’s left?
Nothing!!! What a great ride! Now I,m having this subtle joy arising in the bullshit!
I have always loved stories. The love and drama of life, the highs and lows, the successes and failures, the laughter and the tears, struggling and fighting. I love it all. It’s an incredible, unpredictable mystery. And couldn’t drop it even if I wanted to.
Maitreya great story, you are the central character and the star. Enjoy the show. Of course your attached to your own story, it’s a thrilling experience, it’s captivating, unpredictable and miraculous.
Give it up and go wash the dishes!!!
Without a thought, without a story, there is just Oneness.
What next, a Parent-Teacher Association? We have these PTA’s in the US — totally worthless organizations.
Also, Maitreya, I disagree with most of your 14 points that you list. The worst one is number 5 where you state the “the universe and all existence has a beginning and an end.” That’s a flat-out bogus statement if I ever heard one. Do you have anything to back that ridiculous line up with? Were you there at the beginning of the universe, pal? It must have been a pretty wild scene, I can only imagine….
I appreciate the writer of this article. He has dared to put his feet on the dry shit.
I wonder whether he really mean what he has written or it is a serious comedy!
and how about a Students Association. When the students of these teachers get tired of this Vedic mumbo-jumbo reheated in the Western microwave, they would have a base group for revolution…
and you could have just a Parents Association too, so that the parents of the students have a power base too, might come in handy for class-action lawsuits against these out of work ex-osho sannyasins who are now ‘satsang’ teachers…
then there’s the Parent-Student Association, and maybe even the Teacher-Student Association…I mean, shit, with a little imagination you could actually do away with all this “satsang” bs, and just concentrate on the Associations, they would probably rake in enough moolah to pay the bills anyway…
Maitreya
You may have your viewpoints regarding consciousness. You may be true in some of your view.. On the face of it it looks like those are just thoeritical understanding..
In anycase you have posted your article on the wrong website..
In anycase you have posted your article on the wrong website..
Agreed!
Look Maitreya,
The posts above can show you that the average seeker from the world of Osho has got the sharp eyes, they don’t need any kind of teacher any more. On the shoping bags at Pune ashram is written,” Self sufficient meditator”.
i also endrose the feelings expressed by the above two-
In anycase you have posted your article on the wrong website..
This Maitreya would go far in the Catholic church…… or in Buddhism.
He assumes some access to superior knowledge in those who teach,
but I know that those can do but those who cannot teach.
This is a pretty rough audience Maitreya, as you can see. Even Kranti, who is generally a very nice guy, is going thumbs down to your proposal. In the friendliest of ways he is saying, “Get lost, Mr. Maitreya “the friend” Satsang Teacher Associaton promotor.” And that’s even after you begin your aritcle with “Beloved Friends, Love.” — just like Osho used to do in the late 60′s — that same opening gambit. You would think you could think of something a little more original than that. After looking at your website with your photo, I thought, this guy M. looks likes Samuel Beckett a bit — what is the title of your new play Sam — “Waiting for Sourceot”…?
Whats next for the Satsang scene?
How about $50 if you can go three rounds with the Fighting Hippie. That would pull in a large crowd.
Or how about the trick shooter. The satsang teacher could shoot things out of people’s mouths with live ammunition, looking in a mirror with a rifle back to front. That would pull in a even larger crowd and lots of dosh.
Surely this would be a space to truly experience yourself. It might even be a good way to raise your level of consciousness. Who knows.
PS: There is no copyright on these ideas. Satsang teachers please feel free to use them.
But Maitreya! One question. Hope you dont mind answering.
Why should an enlightened master request for forming an Association of Satsang Teachers?..It is quite strange..I honestly dont know how to feel..
Anyway i am deeply connected to Osho and trust Osho’s vision will help me to grow.. Anything like an organized attempt puts me off .. I am very uncomfortable with any organized attempt to make people learn something.. May be i am conditioned like that after listening to Osho for years .. I am sorry…
hi. guys… just coming back. did frank post this article as a joke?
It is hard to know what to say. it looks like taken out of a Fellini movie.
A satsang association of fully enlightened people?
Associations have the aim of protecting corporate collectivities to defend common interests.
Come on, Frank! I know it is you
Enlightened People of the world, UNITE!!!
This way we can come to terms that we all charge the same for satsang. this way we end this hideous competition.
Ok. now we all found a Disciple Association. this way we fight that the price of satsangs stay low… it is fair
Anthony..It is really nice to see you back..
I just wanted to be fair.. So after my initial reactions i took a look at Maitreya’s website .. May be you were aware of him..He is supposed to be an enlightened teacher..
To me an enlightened person requesting for an association sounded really strange..
well, I know Maitreya ishwara, for some time. he is, as my diagnosis goes, psychotic. He used to be one of Samdarshi followers. Had a couple of psychotic episodes and was subsequently expelled from the commune. he began writing letters to presidents of countries and wrote a book called something like. “the message of god to humanity”. I do not remember the exact title. The book is clearly written by a delusional megalomaniac.
I knew someone who was with him with samdarshi and he told me the guy was a just a nutcase. Even samdarshi gossiped about his psychosis.
now if you read his article, you can see the guy is Fucked up.
Again, not clear whether this is the same Anthony Thompson PHD who points out discrepancies and innacuracies in Christopher Calders writing, and has posted on SN in the past. What he writes here is clearly not accurate.
Anthony writes of Maitreya, “He used to be one of Samdarshi’s followers. Had a couple of psychotic episodes and was subsequently expelled from the commune.”
Maitreya has written in his biography that Samdarshi suggested that he leave his ashram in Khaknal, but this was not because of any psychosis. Actually, Samdarshi had already confirmed Maitreya’s initial enlightenment, which was said to have taken place while meditating with him in Byron Bay in 1995.
“After another two years of passionate meditation with Samdarshi the ego finally left forever. On 26 October 1995 near Byron Bay there was a huge jerk in the belly and the psychic knot separated from him and disappeared. Maitreya had been fooled twice by satoris, this time he kept quiet about his experience. Even when Samdarshi said he had entered the fifth body, Maitreya made no comment. He wanted to see if it was really permanent.”
Samdarshi and his own master, Baba Purnanand, are well into the system of the seven bodies which Osho himself talked about in great depth when he was speaking on kundalini yoga. Therefore, according to Maitreya’s own account, after his enlightenment:
“Meditation continued with expanding consciousness, love and bliss for another twenty months till the third-eye explosion in Dharamsala on 10 June 1997.”
Before this he had been meditating intensely for two years with both Samdarshi and Purnanand Baba, yet the sixth body opening had not taken place.
“For two months in early 1997, I meditated twice a day in Mahabaleshwar with Purnanand Baba, a beautiful soul who shares his enlightenment mainly in silence.
Every day we disappeared into the arcane realm of the sixth body, the intense cosmic fire of awareness that is the eternal witness of all.
During every meditation the third-eye drama intensified more and more, but still it did not open fully. That penulti- mate opening came four months and many meditation hours later after all human help had been relinquished.
In Poona I underwent surgery on both knees to repair damage from long hours of sitting on the floor without moving.
Nowadays I recommend chairs for meditators who are uncomfortable sitting on the floor. Meditation does not appear to be afraid of chairs, and it is more important for meditators to be relaxed and keep the spine straight than to achieve yogic mastery over the body.
I returned to Khaknal in April and kept meditating alone in my room without even saying hello to Samdarshi. I felt the next step would happen only in aloneness.
One day in late spring, I met Samdarshi on the road and he invited me for a visit. I told him I no longer felt the need for any support from anyone. He agreed and sug- gested I move to Dharamsala to be completely away from his energy.
That felt perfect and the next morning I left Khaknal for the last time, with Samdarshi’s blessings and a sense of impending release from the all-consuming drama of the third eye.”
(From ‘Biography of a Buddha’ by Maitreya Ishwara)
“I knew someone who was with him with Samdarshi and he told me the guy was a just a nutcase. Even Samdarshi gossipped about his psychosis.”
Yet, Samdarshi himself mentions Maitreya Ishwara as one of a handful of people who got enlightened with him in a recent satsang in Goa, the video is on YouTube.
Too bad.. I didnt want to comment anything..
But i also wanted to know a little bit about him as he was connected to Osho earlier..
Infact i read an extract from his book Unity where he says ‘ On 21 March 1953, Osho passed through all three stages of enlightenment in one night.”
In the next pages he says ” Friedrich Nietzsche says God is dead. Osho agrees that the God of theistic religions is redundant. Buddha, Nietzsche and Osho are mistaken. ”
Apart from that quite a few ideas given in that book seemed contardictory to me… between pages..
Thanks for sharing ..
I feel like it is not my kind of stuff.. Let me get on with Life..
I got attracted to Osho only because he comes with a such freshness and life affirming appraoch… No past luggage or complexities etc.. With Osho you basically dont have anything to lose.. You end up celebrating and dancing a little more than others do.. Thats not bad … Thats is enough for me
In case you guys do not know what is a delusional megalomaniac. I give you a quote from Maitreya ´s autobiography:
“Maitreya is a divine messenger. His sense of independent functioning has been replaced with divine animation so that he can be used as a clear channel for messages from God. Source is the author of every word Maitreya writes”
See what i mean?. It sounds like one of Frank´s parodies.
Anthony, what happened to the “love” stuff that you were embracing last week after you threw in the towel, and supposedly gave up the fight?
Here you’re accusing this guy of being a “psychotic”, “delusional megalomaniac”, “Fucked up”, and by 3rd party reference — a “nutcase”.
This is your new style of love?
Maybe a form of the much ballyhooed “tough love” that has permeated the modern theraputic circles of late, mmm?
confrontational tough love…
and a bit of counter-transference: I never liked the guy when he was sitting in the German Bakery trying to spread his message… i just wanted to drink my carrot juice… quietly.
yeah, Anthony, you’re right though, it might be a parody by frank, but then too, frank may be a parody himself, by someone else. Now here’s a classic case of the mask behind the mask behind the mask.
If we ever finally got to the “Source” — that would be really a wild ending to this Wizard of Oz story…maybe the Source is just an ordinary old man with some smoke and mirrors trying to have a little fun…
Oh Anthony nice to see you back.
If you think it will serve the purpose of TRUTH, rip these gurus Off. You have all the infos. about many of these wolfs , like Maitarya was sitting with Samdarshi, the first kiosk opener after Osho leaving the body. I have just read in your comments.
i have heard that my fellow country man mentioned above has amazed enough real estate to wash out all the strains of poverty from his genes.
May be it is my moral judgement but somehow i can accept prostitutes’s income as a real income. When some one uses spirituality to amaze money or seduce women, it is as dirty as drug money or human trafficing or even contract killing.(But again it is my view, no absolute truth!)
Oshobob. I just didn´t want to fight with Andreas anymore. he is my pal now.
i disagree with him and i think he does not have all the facts straight. but I think he is sincere… and he has a heart and I respect that.
Anthony / Shantam
Please let me know something.. How come so many people including Sam , say they experienced so much silence and love infront of this Maitreya..?
I am just asking because you guys have better exposure to life and these kind of people…
Honestly i dont anything beyond Osho and i feel thats a blessing..Whatever i know about others also thru Osho’s discourses only..
Like i said in my earlier post i am happy to have connected myself with Osho and He has given all the maturity and joy and celebration in my life..
When He asks ‘ enough for today ‘ .. I say “Yes Osho.. enough for life”
I dont need these kind of gurus..
Yes Anthony.. I miss that guy Andreas..
I kept reacting to him.. But i always felt he was honest and sincere in His opinions.. He has his View and life experiences..and we need to respect it
Andreas.. Please come back.. I feel like you are a long lost friend … it is ages since i saw a post from you
I honestly do not know. sometimes i am unable to distinguish between my own projection or something coming from outside. charisma might very well be a socially constructed phenomenon
But to feel deep silence and presence? Not sure..How come?
Please let me know something.. How come so many people including Sam , say they experienced so much silence and love infront of this Maitreya..?
Kranti, Who is Sam?
Sam is Pari. Pari is Chris. Chris is just Chris as far as we know. They all just died recently, but didn’t get as many obituaries as they thought they might.
Who is Samdarshi? Any connection to Sam here? Any connection to Samuel Beckett, or….Sammy Sapperstein?
Bob,
The link below is a interesting site. All the available gurus are there. One can research any name. All most all are selling the ” Generic Paracetamol” for soul.
http://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/RatingsN.htm
As long as demand is there there will be supply of Paracetamol” for soul. It will only increase…
Do our bodies need only Paracetamol for healing. There are many other medicines and the research never stops.
Now imagine there are pharmacists and chemists,but no company like Novaratis, Pfiser or Ranbaxy. A concentrated effort, a team work will be missing to provide the right atmosphere to produce the quality medicines.
For sure, quarks and half educated doctors will have a field day, as it was for centuries. Average age of human beings were 30 or 35 years. It has its own benefit. Earth could never be over populated!
Osho by creating His kind of Ashram wanted to consolidate the base for the research work in the world of spirituality.
Individually millions of people for thousands of years are sitting silently or doing their rituals. Osho had provided an opportunity to see every aspect of human behaviour, to use every possible mean of confrontation to evolve. When He said many times that my approach is very scientific, it was so…
I can say from my side and thousands others can swear by the effectively of the process of being in the living ashram; working, meditating, laughing, fucking, confronting, crying….just a fire test for the purification of the gold. This was the unique quality of Osho Commune International, one of its kind Ashram.
What happened, after the proprietors death?
Main disciples started behaving like CE0, CFO, President, executive President etc. of a multi national business company. Their mind which was surrendered to the Master’s will for decades started working again.The end result is that Osho ashram has become an Indian version of Hilton Resorts Pvt. Ltd.
People who have tried to built something with their personal charisma are unable to bring that flavour in their product. Very sweet black colored water does not become Coca Cola.
This burns my blood. One of its kind experiment needs its revival. Till than people will have only Paracetamol or few like us in this platform will prefer nothing.
There is something called holistic medicine which is seeing the light of the day.. People have understood the limitations of relying on one type of medicinal system . Especially the western medicne which looks at only the symptoms not the root cause.
To me Osho was Holistic in his approach because he had the insight into the deepest aspects of human beings.. he also kept the system alive by keep finetuning it. Thats why he was talking about New Man / Whole Man
But we cant say the same understanding will be there once he has left the body. It is bound to happen.. Thats why it is best to allow all the things which were there during His time and leave the rest to life rather than choosing what is best according to our interpretations unless we have people who have understanding close to Osho’s
When I was in New Zealand some time ago, travelling and visiting friends, at some point I was close to the place of Maitreya by accident. As I was not aware of it, somebody told me and suggested that I should go there. But I never went to see any “satsang teacher”. Just the name “Maitraya” was enough for me to not even think about it.
I agree with Anthony on the psychological side of Maitreya. But Maitreya is not just a nutcase. This makes it a bit complicated (as with Osho – sorry I know you do not like to hear this, but this is my understanding).
Obviously the brain is able to be rational in some ways, speaking or writing logically and at the same time creating fiction upon fiction and hide the contradictions very well to itself! To me, all of this is part of the evolution of our complex brains which finally was able to produce philosophy, religion and even theology. A comprehensive subjcet, too demanding for now to go into details. But science is going to understand the brain better and better every day. As when Galileo and Darwin challenged the religions just by their simple and plain findings, physics and bio sciences are about to deconstruct a great deal of spiritual hotchpotch and psychology and makes it look quite daffy. So no wonder that those who have invested their lives in fictituous assumptions like enligtenment or god are getting nervous. But even the popes after some time had to admit that the earth is not flat.
Now back to Maitreya: He says: “Teachings which insist there is nothing to do and you are already free are a form of pseudo advaita that brings spirituality into disrepute.”
This subject alone would easily make many pages. He is talking of practical experiences here as it seems. There is total confusion out there about all these subjects. It’s part of a globalizing mind. Advaita itself is a complex philosophical system, but as most philosophies does not work, because it implies that you have to accept everything, all the atrocities, even the ferocities of industrial killing of 6 millions jews by the nazis. The practical consequences of advaita are devastating. It kills compasssion and it’s a philosophy nobody can live. So I am somewhat in line with Maitreyas statements here. It looked very odd and surprising to me from the very beginning when all the mas and swamis went to Punjaji just a minute after Osho died. Advaita after all is a religion with the same dubious logic than other religions. “pseudo advaita” just describes the over all confusion about all this subjects. Yet there is a positive aspect about it, that is, if you see the word with advaita-eyes, you will not depend so easily on methods or gurus, as it does not fit into the framework. This basically is the reason why Maitreya is against it, it is aginst his vested interest:
He says: “Newer seekers need to develop awareness and acceptance through practice. Meditation is the means to develop awareness. One watches the inner experience until awareness grows sufficiently to rest in Beingness, Eventually awareness becomes strong enough to explore itself and to verify experientially that consciousness is the core reality. Meditation is discouraged by advaita teachers who see it as a form of separation or ego effort. They are mistaken. Meditation is tuning in and connecting consciously to Now. It is the heart of spiritual experience and is essential. The self enquiry method of Who am I is a powerful and ancient meditation technique.”
Again a subtle matter. For example I never followed koan techniques as I think they are kind of questions which have the potential to make you mad, if you take it too serious. But basically, except for all this overdone terminology of “seeker”, “consciousness is the core reality” etc. I agree. Meditation is a way to do something good for yourself, if you are not overdoing it and if you able to naturally extending it into you day to day activities and become a “self sufficient meditator”. Yet again my point is, his reason to tell us all of this, is, that he has to deal with all the advaitans and other maha-stupids in the satsang scene who think they have got it. But certainly HE is the one who’s got it, the fully enlightened. Therefore he want’s to dictate a esoteric canon, to consolidate his gurudom, old game of all religions and wisenheimers. All this talk about unity, source, god, – holy cow are you serious, you better go and study the history a bit! And why not extend your terminology like: eighth enlightened one, quarter enlightened one, half enlightened one and full enlightened one etc. ect…
Maitreya says: “Some teachings fixate on one technique while others deny the value of any technique. Clearly these are limited and unhelpful approaches.”
Another complicated matter which was a subject of long and sometimes strange dispute for centuries in most traditional religions creating schism. Even in zen. Obviously Maitreya has found all the answers as he decribes it all together as “unhelpful approaches”. To me there is not a simple answer to this. As human beings we use tools and methods of all kinds. This is part of human evolution and live. But any method is ambivalent and can not applied to everybody. It may help and destroy, depending on how you use it. My experience is, that there is no answer to all and everthing and answers must vary because human beings are unique and therefore different in their way of learning. Besides this, clinging to a method is able to destroy the free flow and corrupt or condition your mind. These are the inherent dangers of any method. For example Osho used many methods not caring about the consequeces (or not seeing them) while Krishnamurti would decline them for their inherent dangers. To me it is good to find a way for yourself and then stay with it for while. Finally drop method. And do not forget to drop it, otherwise you might be completely fucked! Yet the basic question to me is, if you use a method you must have a goal, but if the goal is a fiction created by the mind, the method is just leading you into confusion. So take a good look at your motivation and goals before you start using methods. Especially if the methods were given to you by somebody else!
Maitreya: “When teachers allow or encourage followers to fixate on the guru an unhealthy climate develops that can easily lead to abuse or misuse of power. Spirituality has always been plagued with authoritarian abuses or misuses of power, even in enlightened traditions, and this must come to an end.”
It must have dawned to Maitreya, for he knows the scene well, that it is completely insane and creating situations for people which destroy their lives. Completely irresponsible. The scene is about it’s collapse, mentally as physically. Yet he is part of the insanity!!! He just would like to control it. As all of the gurus he is not able to stop it, because this meant the collapse of his idendity, the end of the game, which he takes serious as his writings prove. Just a sentence before, he makes it clear: “Devotion and surrender are key spiritual methods”, then he tries to find a solution for the ugly consequences “but they are better directed towards each moment of Life than to the teacher”. Now, that sounds great “Devotion towards each moment of life”. But then stop your business man! Get lost as quickly as you can, run as fast as you can, otherwise they will get you.
Finally: “600 pages of divine message for the new dawn of conscious civilization that is about to unfold”. I am missing words here! I am used to quiet some lujnacy, but in this case it is too much. It is all but a mad justification. Pari’s quotes (the cofounder of sannyasnews) on the website of Maitreya, proves that Maitreya obviously is able to convince intelligent people. But it also proves what I have found again and again: most leaders have intelligence, intuition and the abilities of actors to control others, but massive blindspots about themself. To me this was one of Oshos contributions: he was exposing the lies of others in such a way that you easily could see their laughableness. Yet Osho did weave his own story, he was bashing idiots to make up his own business. And his own story is as mad as the story of his predecessors. He could not end the game for the same reason why Maitreya is not able to end his little business. It needs a simple, but shocking insight or rare wisdom. A honesty which usually is out of reach for a gambler and roulette player as long he is on the road to success.
Man’s ways to confront fear of death and to overcome the natural limitations of human live are manifold. Some try by collecting money or power, some try manipulating their brains in such way that they seem to be beyond all this. Basically I do not mind as long as others are not harmed. But if your acts and manipulations interfere with others you are responsible. And others have the right to opose you in a reasonable way to stop you. If you renounce your freedom on your own, nobody can prevent you. But you must have some ulterior motive, you are trying to make a business for something higher. And there is supply where there is demand. Certainly this kind of business is your freedom. But this way freedom never happens! You are exploited, because there are no shortcuts. That’s why in modern democratic societies there are tools to guaranty your freedom. If you make yourself a slave to anything it is up to you. But misuse of power, be it individually or be it collectively must be sanctioned. Otherwise only the most corrupted will prevail. The balance is always fragile and undermined and weakened easily. It needs courage to defend it as we can see in Iran.
Subcultural groups are able to contribute to change, inventions, new ways of living. But they are very endangered to repeat the history of mankind and reproduce all the atrocities in one way or the other. The attempt to change the world, easily becomes a nightmare. Maitreya and such are borderline cases to me. As long as his followers are not harmed, it is their business. But my stomach is churning and I would not like to invite him into my home and even less so go to his home.
Andreas
P.S. One thing really was disgusting to me: the dominant display of his son on his website. And a son of Maitreya must be named Siddharta certainly. I just was thinking again and again poor guy, poor guy. Such a abuse.
Andreas, good to hear your slant(s) on this matter. You are always quite comprehensive in your perceptions.
Shantam Prem, speaking of Swami Sarlo and his guru rating website, yes I found that Samdarshi there.
Here’s an even better web page by Sarlo, I think — he lists all of Osho’s books, arranged by date, including the Hindi books that are fairly unknown, to western readers anyway.
Here’s the link:
http://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/Yoshobooks.htm
If you get tired of the neo-satsang scene, you can always go back to the “great one” himself — English translations of these Hindi originals are continually being pumped out to the market by industrious sannyasins and publishing houses. Not to mention reprints of the English discourses, and of course, the compilation books — those seeming to be a subject of never ending controversy in themselves.
Andreas. I cerioulsly think we need to sit and talk. so interesting what you say. i wrote an article two years ago, for a spanish magazine called “the Myth of the holistic approach and perfect method”. And it basically said that our minds are fixed to think that if a method or approach is true, it should work in everybody and in all circumstances.
My understanding is that methods can be useful within certain contexts and they are ” true” within that consciousness level: But put to practice in another level might prove them completely “wrong”. This is difficult for our minds to process , due to the fact that it tends to create meaningful configurations all the time, and assign meaning and significance to everything.
Regarding approaches and methods, It all depends on the purpose, the context and the individual. Recihian therapy is great to discharge repressed emotions, but it will not help to become more flexible in your body. in the same way, that yoga is great for that, but awful for emotional connection.
that does mean that the methods are not right? No it just means that there´s no method for everything as such.
I remember long ago someone suggesting to me to do Osho meditations to overcome some kidney problems. Now, this is just stupid and ignorant. does that means that these methods are not right? certainly not for kidney problems.
thanks Andy
As always you have good points there in your post Andreas.. I am not trying to argue here.
But..
You write
” Obviously the brain is able to be rational in some ways, speaking or writing logically and at the same time creating fiction upon fiction and hide the contradictions very well to itself! To me, all of this is part of the evolution of our complex brains which finally was able to produce philosophy, religion and even theology. A comprehensive subjcet, too demanding for now to go into details. But science is going to understand the brain better and better every day. ”
Here we are assuming that whatever happens is within the limits of the brain. But experience of all the awakened teachers tells us that this is not the case.
We cannot confine everything to material science which is available now to scientists
And East has devoted 1000s of years to understand the workings of Inner.. And they had beautiful life systems due to that understanding.. We have lost that along the way which is a different issue altogether.
As we progress both the sciences are always going to get closer.. But we cannot say.. ” Wait..Let science ( as we define it now ) will reach there someday..Then let us see.
You write
” Advaita itself is a complex philosophical system, but as most philosophies does not work, because it implies that you have to accept everything, all the atrocities, even the ferocities of industrial killing of 6 millions jews by the nazis. The practical consequences of advaita are devastating ”
Who is saying we need to accept everything , all the atrocities? I dont think Advaitha has anything to do with this.
Advaitha simply states there is no separate god..Life is one.. Is it such a bad concept?
Infact all the problems which you are pointing out like ” killing of 6 millions jews by the nazis.” is the result of human beings not understanding Advaitha. If people have understood ‘Life is One ‘.. people will not kill each other.
We can not turn around the concept upside down and say Advaitha is the root cause of the problem.. No.. Absense of Advaitha is the rootcause of the problem
You write
“So no wonder that those who have invested their lives in fictituous assumptions like enligtenment or god are getting nervous”
Yes..Enlightenment is a fiction if you define as an achivement or special stae.. But there are so many teachers with all the good intentions. they never say enlightened state is anything special. All they say is it is state of deep peace because you understand the workings of the ‘ME ‘deeply.. They repeatedly say it is a very ordinary state.
But like any other aspect of life if a particula human being interprets it as a special state and gets trapped in wrong kind of practices it is not anyone else’ fault . It is his own.
You write
” For example Osho used many methods not caring about the consequeces (or not seeing them) while Krishnamurti would decline them for their inherent dangers”
No comments. I leave it to all the sannyasins who have practiced the methods developed by Osho
You write
” But if your acts and manipulations interfere with others you are responsible. And others have the right to opose you in a reasonable way to stop you ”
This again applies to false teachers who misuse sprituality.. Risk is always there. Poeple need to be careful in selecting the teachers..
Good teachers dont go to the street and drag everyone to force their teaching.. How are we benchmarking these things?
You write
The attempt to change the world, easily becomes a nightmare.
Totally agree. Thats why Osho insists so much on individual change not a social change
Something to keep in mind on this subject of “advaita” is that it is a negative word, like many others arising out of Indian theology. It does not mean “unity”. It means, literally, “not two”.
“A” is a negation prefix, still also used commonly in the English language today. Amoral, asymmetrical, asexual, atheistic, and so on.
“Dva” mean two. In Russian, this is used the same. In English it is changed a little to “two”.
So the word is really “a-dvaita” — ‘not two’.
Osho has explained other words in the Sanskrit and Hindi based languages which are similar — “neti, neti”, meaning “not this, not this”. Or Gautam Buddha’s “nirvana” — having nothing to do with “enlightenment” at all, but the “blowing OUT of the flame”. Another negation in spiritual lingo of the Indian religious viewpoints.
a-hello
oshobob
While we can have all kinds of debates and arguements on whether there is enlightenment or not , what is right method or wrong method , who is a right teacher and who is a wrong teacher etc etc etc
Which we will keep doing anyway…
But Just to balance things a little bit..
( This is not to preach or divert topic…I balanced my debating mind by reading this )
Please see link.. You would have seen already.. May be you can close your eyes and absorb this.. if interested..
http://www.theendofseeking.net/E%20-%20Only%20for%20the%20Few.html
To continue, in a more practical sense, carrying on with the first post here by Heraclitus, is that not everyone — teachers or non-teachers — is interested in this “non-dual” or “unity” viewpoint.
Yes, the universe is “one”, but so what? Does that mean you want to merge with everything in it? Do you want to become one with the sun? Go try it. You’ll lose your ego, but along with everything else too — your body, your future, and your ability to write posts to sannyasnews, among other things.
Do you want to “become one” with all the people on this earth? Isure don’t — there are people in my neighborhood I don’t want anything to do with, I want to keep as great a distance as possible. I mean, take that lady Jolene — she’s always griping about something, the TV picture isn’t clear, her kids never call her, on and on about anything and everything. I want her to be her, and me to be me, and to paraphrase Rudyard Kipling, I hope that “never the ‘twain shall meet’…..
Oshobob..Neibours are created only for that purpose.. To make people understand how to keep distance..
Its even bigger issue if you live in an apartment.
Close but not close…like pathless path..Tao
What about the Apartment secretary?
I am a bit allergic to the “Satsang” sites. As an Indian, you see pigs in the open drains and Satsangs in your home or in neighbour’s home. When i read in Andreas mail that Mr. Ishwara Maitarya has integrated his son too on his web site, i became curious to see the child born out of holy union.
I have told my friends in the late 80′s of the last century that soon we will have Indians as CEO’s of western companies and in the exchange we will see many western becoming gurus through Indian traditions. Globalisation and cultural exchange is taking shape.
India is becoming self sufficient economically and west is creating their own self styled gurus.
For sure, we are living in a very exciting time.
Rudyard Kipling said ‘ twian shall never meet ‘ because he didnt forsee this globalization..
Guys.. Some serious stuff
After reading Anthony on the usefulness about methods , i was thinking about the same..
Happened to read Ramesh balsekar’s book ‘ Peace and harmony in daily living ‘ wherein he says
” any method happens in duration.. and since duration is in time the method itself pre supposes that the meditation cannot happen ‘ now ‘ “.. So using a method is moving away from meditation
By saying no method will work and we need to be just aware of the ‘ ego ‘ or ‘ Me ‘ , we are essentially wating for the dropping of ego in its own time
My initial impression was to accept it.. Then i felt this again is based on the use of logic ..
So mind can say.. doing a method is wrong..let me wait… and that ‘ waiting ‘ happens in time.. We are caught again..
I think this is where Osho approached meditation from the opposite path
We can also fall in meditation when we taste ‘ silence ‘ which can be created thru methods . Once you taste deep silence then the understanding & dropping of the false ‘ Me ‘ is easier because you have tasted something which is positive.
Tasting something positive makes it easier for you to drop the negative..
I do not know if I am on the right plattform here as basically I am not interested in the master / disciple thing or the spin off theroff. Mostly I communicate in a different style and about different matters. To me master, guru, etc. is kind of a profession which is about to die out, like coprights etc. Masters will become a endangered species in the 21 century. I like to give you some simple examples, but as the subject is complex I emphasise that what I am saying is more of a symbolic and very reduced sketch:
Try to imagine this planet as one whole organism, like an astronout looking down to planet earth from his Apollo space ship: This beautiful blue and fragile jewel. Millions and millions of years of slow biochemical evolutionary processes, then thousands of years of cultural process and suddenly the consciousness of biological individuals is connecting in a evolutionary split second, kind of a explosion of consciousness. To me it is obvious that the world rapidly has grown kind of a nervsystem during the last decades. With a lot of fall out. But still something phenomenologically unique has happend. Consiousness has connected, like millions of computers being hooked up in massive parallel system. Like parallel connected telescopes trying to get a better understanding of the cosmos. It is happening on all levels simultaneous. My understanding is that unity is not created by religions with it’s terrible misunderstandings of reality and all it’s fictions but by an incredible evolutionary process. Computers are tools with potentially endless means. They have extended mans understanding enourmously. For example clusters of connect in parallel computer systems helped to understand the facts of DNA. The process of understanding theroff is not linear, it is exponential. It’s speed is such that we are being surprised any minute about new insights and there is great turmoil anywhere because new insights are questioning prior assumptions and power structures of all kind. Yesterday I heard Mrs. Clintons in a press conference say that she could not even tell the difference between a tweeder and a twitter and I also heard that the pentagon is complitely surprised by the effects of twitter in Iran, they have not even thought about it’s implications and they are the biggest military think tank in the world. See what I mean? The process has got it’s own dynamics, because in effect these are non linear neuronal systems. They are like the weather, fractal mathematics or economy. You can not really predict and even a small change at any origin can have a very strong impact on the whole system.
Why am I trying to describe this? Meditation and the brain, inside and outside etc. ect. it is all connected, a very flexible and ever changing dynamic system, a highly synchroniced process between inner and outer. I fact there is no division. It is a physical process and consciousness is a byproduct. The greatest wonder is, that something like live or consciousness evolved at all. Physics is proving that this process is self organizing and our belief systems have not much to do with reality which can not even be descibed in usual trems but only in mathematical terms, as our brain did not evolve from the perseption of reality but as a byproduct of survival. As live and humans evolved from a very ardous and brutal evolutionary process our brain is completely conditioned by it. Therfore the power questions are dominat anywhere, even here. No way to avoid it. Also there is a interpreter in our brains which is interpreting the world in methaphysical terms. If you take certain drugs it becomes flooded with neurons. It’s existence evolved as part of the long process to understand and control the world and therfore to survive.
Now, to make it short, we are very archaic beings. To me meditation is the methological, subjective and inner counterpart to the objective process described roughly here. To me we should take care intelligently of our hard wired archaic tendencies and the whole subject of meditation had to be freed from all dependencies, being opened and democraticed. All the secrecy and mystical hotchpotch is not necessary. Still the world is a incomprehensible wonder. But the wonder is not a fake like walking on water, but the wonders and mysteries of a simple grass leave or the scientific outcome of nuclear physics. Actually I am not even positive or negative about Osho as a person. I am only interested in the phenonema to prevent it’s negative sideeffects for my own live, to learn and to go on. The future of mankind needs a global understanding which is beyond traditions and based on scientific understanding. And we are already in the midth of disintegration and deconstuction of traditional societis and the conditionings which come along with it. No wonder that the process is violent. But it also implies an incredible perspective. I think change will happen in a very surprisingly way. Religions and also most of that “spiritual” hotchpotch out there to me are more of a drawback and a handicap in this process. All of this will be just overrun, like companies going bankrupt. Actually to me “spirituality” has become kind of four letter word, I usually don’t use it anymore. I see that evolution and our brains work in a much broader way. Any sole cliam to growth and superiority is just ridiculous. We are all but pebbels on the shore of live which goes on and on…
Here I have something for all the rappers out here:
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
Andreas
I am asking for my own understanding
You say
” It is a physical process and consciousness is a byproduct. ”
But i here people say all the phyical processes including universe happens in Conciousness?
Is Conciousness a by proudct or it is the background in which other things happen?
One more point i think , it is the context in which we talk that is important
In the overall context we are all ” pebbels on the shore of live which goes on and on ”
In an individual context doing something to drop out the ‘ me ‘ is basically an effort to get connected to the that life which goes on and on..Otherwise we feel we are struck and life is not smooth
I used to think if everything is part of life then why should i take any effort to meditae..I should accept everything..But..then at the physical level if there is a disease like cancer , one should make effort to come out of it.. isnt it?
So like any other physical disease there is a disease inside and we use meditation to remove that disease..
Nothing more nothing less
Ideally i would not like to be in a master – disciple relationship.. But if i look that just as a way or tool to come out of the disease then it sounds alright..
In a previous post you said that something abt Aurobindo.. I dont know much about his teachings.
Is what you are saying as ‘ a larger evoliotionary process ‘ equivalent to what Aurobindu is saying?
Some relevant article
http://www.theendofseeking.net/E%20-%20Awakening%20What%20Exactly.html
Kranti you asked: “But i here people say all the phyical processes including universe happens in Conciousness?Is Conciousness a by proudct or it is the background in which other things happen?”
This is the old hen or egg question and you will find all kind of answers. I have none. Osho called himself a spiritual materialist. You can make it up to yourself. I just think if you take away the necessary physical conditions your brain stops working. That’s all. I do not believe in reincarnation nor in heaven nor in hell. Nor do I believe in any creator or any god or any superconsciousness etc. I think it’s great to research and leave the open answers open.
You asked: “In a previous post you said that something abt Aurobindo.. I dont know much about his teachings. Is what you are saying as ‘ a larger evoliotionary process ‘ equivalent to what Aurobindu is saying?”
No. Neither it is equivalent to people like Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. They tried with great effort to find a way out of the consequences of theory of evolution by synthesising spirituality with science. But they failed.
I wan to understand more of what you say
” I just think if you take away the necessary physical conditions your brain stops working ”
What i understand due to my recent efforts is ( Again i dont how far this is correct ) Conciousness takes physical form to express itself and the physical senses are what it uses to express itself.. ( this means again Conciousness is beyond physical form )
When it drops the physical senses ( or like what you say ‘take away physical conditions’ ) all that happens is it cannot express itself through that particular body mind mechanism but Conciousness does not cease to exist because physical conditions are withdrawn.
Infact there is also the continuation of some amount of your mental content which makes reicarnation possible and all ( which i also not interested in at all )
Now that throws open the important question
Why shuld i be interested at all ?
After all like Oshobob said it is the ‘ me ‘ which is unique and which i am identified with. It has its limitations..But why should i be interested in dropping it if all it is going to result is in ‘ some impersonal state ‘?
I am interested to the extent it produces a state of ‘ Deep Peace ‘. If that deep peace comes because of the dropping of ‘ me ‘ then i am nervous ….
But something inside me says ‘ give it a shot ‘… because it looks like it is going to be ‘ beautiful ‘..
Besides i am thinking whether i can escape paying taxes by dropping the me..because taxes will anyway kill me
Andreas
Not sure whether you have seen this site..
http://www.johnperkins.org/john_perkins_books.html
I agree with Andreas. After years of research in the area of spirituality, psychology and religion… I do not know.
It all looks to me like a great myth. reincarnation, evolution of consciousness, etc.
We do have some research on awareness in beings that have no rain or central nervous system, and there seems to be a certain ability to become aware of the surrounding, although not of itself.
So self awareness seems to be a brain function, but actually we do not know…
All i am interested is to stop this constant ‘ Noise ‘ & ‘ Chatter ‘ inside…I believe we can live without it…We dont have to worry too much about the Universe and overall evoloution of mankind etc.,
Let us cut out the Enlightenment junk and share some jokes
” St Peter challenged the Archangel Gabriel to a game of golf. St. Peter’s first drive resulted in a hole-in-one. Gabriel’s first drive produced the same result The same thing happened at the next shot. St. Peter looked at Gabriel thoughtfully and then said, “What do you say we cut out the miracles and play some golf?”
Good thoughts all around, but I think we need Osho’s guidance again. It would be very useful.
Andreas, you have written; To me master, guru, etc. is kind of a profession which is about to die out, like copyrights etc. Masters will become a endangered species in the 21 century.
This afternoon as part of my 2 Euros per hour job, i was gluing the posters of an Indian independent teacher from the school of Osho. I know this nice man and group of 7 people around him personally for more than a decade.
In the last 20 years or so, in spite of hundred thousand fliers and posters, not more than 15-20 people have ever entered in his seminars. The whole spiritual work is supported by the real life hard work of his 7 permanent people. They do gardening, cleaning, plumbing, party service etc to generate the money.
So while doing this official work assigned by the “Arbeitsamt” i was thinking to ask the group here,
what is the motivation factor in the psychology of a Guru, It does not matter whether they get success or not in their endeavour to impress people by their teaching.
In my opinion “super star” gurus are not going to be many in this century, who have the reach like Hollywood movie stars. But gurus like small budget documentary movies will be more than before.
So i am really interested to know your opinion in this regard. What makes a man or woman; the guru( it includes all satsang givers, seminar takers with nice names like, ” subway of love” or Tantra of love, erection and emancipation.” (Hindi word Tantra means, the System)
The desire for social recognition and money are the instinctive and evolutionary needs. If some one becomes professor or doctor or IT consultant, lawyer or politician etc, i can understand, but which is the special ingredient in the formation of a GURU, fascinates me.
To be honest, i will not hide that i have a bit of this trait in me or most of the friends in this group are also carrying, so please, if you feel so, let us do the discovery and surgery of this Trait. This will be a “Prost (Cheers)” to the article writer of this thread too.
PS- in m opinion, during the second part of the last century there were 5 super star gurus or antiguru gurus who could influence east and west both; Mahesh Yogi, Sai Baba (Afro hair), J and UG krishnamurti and our very Own Osho.( Bob said once there were hundreds of Osho’s before in the far eastern traditions).
Four of these are already up stairs…. so vacuum in the market is great….
Mm.. Thats my feeling also ..
Being more quite and without too much words
I was Looking at the photos at oshophotos.com
Pictures speak thousand things which words cannot describe
Shantam
This is just my oipnion..
As long as we are playing mind games the desire to become GURU is the same as the desire to be special or big or famous.. I dont see any difference..So there is nothing wrong if we have a desire to become a guru
But i dont think the deisre will still be there if someone is truly awakened..How ones’ life takes shape after enlightenment has nothing to do with enlightenment itself..
One can go and sit in a cave without any interest to become a GURu or one can become a Guru.. But thats is the by product of external life circumstances and life flow.. whats existence has for you..
I feel we cannot take that as ‘evidence ‘ or ‘proof ‘ of whether someone is awakened or not.
Just because one is NOT playing the role of Guru does not mean he is awakened & just because someone is playing that role doesnt mean he is not awakened.
Just to add to my post above
Osho always said ‘ The Master – Disciple relationship exists only from the view point of the Disciple . As far He is concerned there is no such relationship because there was No One inside him to have such a relationship..
Think this is the most important point we need to keep in mind while talking about Master-Disciple relationship
Master Disciple relation, i am of the same feeling as Andreas that this thing called Master Disciple thing will also loose the shine as other organised forms of religions or copyrights etc., atleast in the west this phenomenaon of master disciple became a bit famous during the last century, but reality of the life is different than the poetry of the words.
In India millions of people get a feel good feeling to be at the feet of this or that Master, its poetry is beautiful, but after a certain while one has to walk one’s own walk.
A cosmic intelligence is there to kick us, mold us, reprogamme us, but some human being taking the shape of omni potent Master, i cann’t forsee someone in this century on a global level, the way one can not see some one like Hitler again on the stage of life.
Dear Shantam, I read your question attentively. Think it’s great that you are as courageous to make a living in Europe, guess that’s not easy. Did you have opportunity to travel in Europe? Due to the “guru-questions”, I am sorry I can’t tell, I am not a guru and I do not try to make money with guru business. I work like you, I have a business. I never would like to depend on such a job as being guru. You loose your freedom. A guru is even more depending on his disciples then his disciples on the guru (osho lied). By the way, I think the two Krishnamurtis might have disclaimed the term for themselfs completely.
Kranti I laughed at your golf joke! That’s it! I will save this joke in my joke collection! Besides I think the indian mind is very philosophical. German mind too, a bit more materialistic certainly. Osho said 10 thousand years of philosophy and no results. I agree. It is not very funny, so I prefer a good joke. Yet, I followed your link. I know about Nisargadatta since long as a friend of mine, Al Gromer Khan who lives just a couple of kms away of our home, made me aware of the man. I did not really get why you were displaying the link. Nisargadattas or Balsekars philosophy basically is Advaita / Vedanta. A lot of groundless assumptions and allegations, completely constructed and without any relevance for the 21th century to me. Nobody is able to live it. I try to see implications of such philosophies in the light of their end: Implemented in reality they were a desaster. To believe in destiny represses and denies all efforts; it makes you go gaga and is stultifying. To me there is no destiny. Such ideas just annihilate everything which makes live worth living and at it’s best it creates philosophically trained dummies or marionettes of the “beyond”.
Osho will always be contemporary.
Your last post Andreas is related exactly to what I was talking about approaches , methods, consciousness levels.
If you try to apply the advaita philosophy to your daily working life you will go mad, and no culture would have ever appeared in the human race. If consciousness of death is every minute, nothing will be ever done in any way. We would not even have towels!
But that does not mean that on another consciousness level that approach is not true. If you use Nirgardatta´s approach to find happiness or good relationships it will be a disaster:
But if you use it as an understanding underling unconscious support of pain producing psychological structures, it is just like a glass of water in the desert.
It all depends on the level you focus. No approach is valid in all levels.
It all depends on context and consciousness.
Andreas, thanks for your concern. To make living in Germany is definitely difficult when you reach here in your late thirties with 15 years experience in the ashram and with a degree in Laws, which has no value here.
But to come here was never a question but the high waves of love during the Poona 2 days brought me here. Like most of us from that time, i also wanted to gamble my life and LIFE was waiting for me with two children, one here in Germany and another in Switzerland. I Came for the girls and stayed for the children
I remember Osho saying, ” Every Zen master give a quan. My quan is relationship.”
That was the beauty of mystery school, almost an uncharted journey in the ocean of life. An adventure, where many times you sit with your broken limbs or dreams. If you complain about the losses, it means you were there accidentally and not by choice.
Most of us are walking our walk, as Dr. Amrito wrote to me in his letter a month ago. I don’t need Puna 2 kind of mystic school for me personally, i had enough taste of it.
I am hurt that it is not there for the generation after me, someone like Kranti or other youngsters who can go to Poona for a six weeks holidays or a year break from the work to play with existential mysteries.
Now there is nothing like that. Think the positive social benefits that few thousand take a long break from their jobs, in this way other can fill the gap.
It was because of Poona 2 experiments that a young advocate of an upper middle class family takes a plug into the game. Spends 15 years on the roads of Koregaon park and now in his forties is doing manual work in a foreign country because he will never buy
I pods for his children with “spiritual earning”.
It hurts many times, still i will say amazing is the satisfaction.
Rare is the contribution of Osho to visualise and conceptualise Mystery school, where falling in and out of love was part of the meditation. Nothing was obscene, nothing was default.
It is pity that collectively His disciples could not maintain the uniqueness of the concept. A Banyan tree has become a Bonsai. Somewhere something has gone wrong.
Andreas,
the paragraph below from your mail is quite interesting-
A guru is even more depending on his disciples then his disciples on the guru (osho lied).
I beleive it is a flowerly homage to Osho when a disciple dare to say the hard hitting facts about Him.
World of spirituality will blossem thousand times if we stop proclaiming that the particular master is beyond all gravitational pulls and laws of nature.
and you say-
By the way, I think the two Krishnamurtis might have disclaimed the term for themselfs completely.
J and UG, both were freaking like bull with the mentioning of the world, guru or master. What does it matter , they were antiguru Guru.
I have got today, Mahesh Bhatt’s book, ” A taste of life; The last days of U.G.”
In this book, he mentiones UG as my Master, touches his feet, kisses his feet.
Somehow UG was the right Master for Mahesh Bhatt. Here he did not have to share his Master with the crowd. My papa is just my papa!
A wow! quotation from this book.
“Unless man comes in terms with the fact that he is no more significant han the mosquito or the ant, he is doomed” UG
Osho can come into your life as much as you want him to.
Shantam. I want to tell you, to ease your despair, that the place in pune it is, as it used to be, what you make of it. Do you want sexual liberation? you want meditation? you want personal growth? you want self discovery? you want to hang out?
It is there. I have been visiting the place since 1988. many times I was put off by things that for me, not being a sannyasin, were considered cultist and accessory to growth, not in any way essential. Such as people kissing the podium, or filling the place with Osho pictures. I used to think: what does this has to do with waking up?
Now the place is open for the world. I knew many people who were disgusted by such manifestations, including all those devotional songs to a dead guy… and never came back.
I understand the emotional attachment to all that, because it is connected to your experience there. But if you do not have it in the background… you do not miss it.
the young people who go there now, are getting as much out of it as anybody ever got. making you own trip about the experience. I have witnessed the changes, 10 times I have been there.
If you ask me, just the cobwebs have been removed.
Personally, I liked those old songs. Just because they are connected to my own experience there. but take away the experience and it is catholic church all over….new people will not buy into that.
Let me give you an example.
Heart dance was singing and dancing and many of the songs were addressed to Osho.
In 1999, there were no more than 40 people going every time. Last season there must have been 200. No devotion towards Osho, and people can buy into opening their hearts to music and dancing. If you ask those guys to start worshiping Osho, they´ll hit the road right away.
I tell you It was more financially successful before. This I know for sure. They lost a big clientele when they made the transition from temple to resort, but I think future generations will appreciate what these guys did … and took all the shit for that..
they have created a place that in order to connect with yourself, you do not have to fall at the feet of anyone, weather he is alive or in pictures.
They have created a place that in order to connect with yourself..
WHo are they?
Don’t tell me the PR fgures that people are still coming?
if 100 people go there per day and cross the main door 10 times in a day, the timer will count it as thousand.
Why Jayesh and Amrito are still hanging in Poona. When there is no devotion, no heritage kind of thing, one can create all this in few Acres of land any where in the world. Then people like you can go there, and one will be curious how many people visit that place.
YOu can call that Old dead man Maglomaniac, but it was His creation, His painting, and if some intelligent guy puts his signature there or alters the baisc of it, it is a crime.
And have you not heard when he speaks about those cowards, who visit but don’t dare to take sannyas, He has compared these intellecutals, scholars, spectators like the last dust on the earth.
It is not about sexual liberation , it is the respect for His complete package..
Please, tell your people there if they have the courage and the guts than start the whole thing independetly any where in their home countires. Meditation, Zen, evening meeting, Coffee shop etc.
I am curious what will be there USP.
PS-And Anthony please be fool someone at Wall Mart about ;” the young people who go there now, are getting as much out of it as anybody ever got”.
Listen dear, if you start selling shit in a Tatra pack, few people will still buy it.
Now the place is open for the world. I knew many people who were disgusted by such manifestations, including all those devotional songs to a dead guy… and never came back.
Why these disgusted guys were going there at first place,
It is shame, it is a thanklessness, just ugly what you write.
The Youth..
I think every year catholic church creates a Youth event some where in the world. Last year it was in Australia. As i read in the news, everytime half million to million young people gather.
Even though the guy died 2 thousand years ago, they sing, dance and join the mass.
This innocence, this energy can melt the heart of the stones.
Thanks God, Anthony is too old for such festivals.
And beloved Anthony, my hard hittings words are not because my religious feelings are hurt.
With Osho these never existed.
It is not about Id or ego but super Ego.
The idea of justice, fairness and moral uprightness.
My inner world boils when i read about Burma or North Korea.
You can see my facebook page, i am standing with the people of Iran, i am crying for Nada…. As a religion people of Iran are160 degrees away from me.
The fire of Iran has created a new defination in my brain.
What means, PIG ASS?
An individual or group of people who impose their dictatorial will over the society, without having the compassion of an awakened being…..
Anthony
I do agree with you on lot of points you say like on the postive changes that have happened..
I can understand the efforts which are taken to remove blind worshipping.. I have never been a religious guy in my life and i appreciate such efforts.
Please dont think all indians are worshippers and blind followers.. Infact an Indian can feel and understand a religious stupidity & its negative impact better because i am seeing the effects of the same all the time around me.. at home ,,, in office .. on the streets everywhere..
In India , even now if girl is beaten up her husband she will go to temple instead of court.. Utter lack of self respect and dignity as Osho used to say
When someone like me or Shantam say the balance is missing we dont mean we want to see blind worshipping coming back again..
All we want to see is a balance..
Converting it into a resort also is an extreme.. how do you say people who come there will not misuse the place
By treating the place like a resort to avoid people worshipping , are we not playing into the hands of people who want to see that place as resort / timepass spot..
How are we saying all the people who come there are coming for right reasons.. Infact few years down the line the place will become a tourist spot
I hate to sit in the buddha hall and see a bunch of visitors walking by and looking at us like the way they look at animals in a zoo..
Do you think they are looking at you with any kind genuine interest to know what is happening there
I have not seen Sw Chaitanya Keerthi’s place in Delhi.. But i liked his reply to my earlier thread.. he is telling there is no history of people going to the extreme and worshipping Osho.. At least it didnt happen with Osho
So we are only worryng too much about such a possibility
And Osho has created the place for all kinds of people..He didnt stick to one type of living.. By imposing our choice we are not respectingg His own Vision of a New Man
If someone wants to dance infront of Osho photo it is his choice,, how can we say it is wrong.. Are we not being dictatorial in saying that?
Mind you i prefer the changes which you described..I am happy with most of the things that are happening there.. But i am not looking at the issue from my point of view alone.. that will be too selfish
In short it is the difference between going there as someone interested in meditations and someone plunging into sannyas
Head Vs Heart..
During my first visit to meditation center i was aked whether i wanted to take sannyas.. I said YES.. they asked me ..Are you sure.. This is first visit..may be you can come back next year and decide.. I said ..no need.. I am taking sannyas.. I put aside my rationalising mind and took sannyas.. I dont regret
It is very small shift from head to heart..but significant shift.. It is an indication of whether you are willing to say YES to Life ..
I am not saying taking sannyas is all about Life .. No..
In the context in which we are talking the fall from head to heart is important
I keep listening to so many teachers and i tried to Zen .. I tried awareness in daily life… But it is all dry stuff
Nothing like dancing in buddha hall or Osho auditorium.. And if i have a photo of Osho infront of me.. It will do no harm.. I will dance even more madly
With tears.. Tears of gratitude
As Osho said he is a gate.. If you cant surrner to that gate you will not suurener to Life
We can stay outside and post messages in a forum for 100 years.. It will never bring any bliss or silence or music to life..
I didnt have the opportunity to lead life like the way Shantam has dome.. Tome somone like Shantam is a role model.. someone who said YEs to life..he had the courage to take the plunge.. If i had chooice i would have done it with joy
You know what.. You can ask me why i am not throwing away everythinfg and not taking that plunge.. Give me a PUNE 2.. I will do without second thought
Andreas
I posted that link without any reason.. I was reading the same earlier.. So i posted it.
I also don’t belive in destiny.. Anyone who understand Osho can not belive in destiny.. I live life in the present moment.. Yes i have my inadequacies to do that totally..But thats my incompleteness and growth potential
I dont much about these Nisargadattas or Balsekars.. I dont have to .. I found Osho and He is enough for life
As i said earlier post of mine
” I got attracted to Osho only because he comes with a such freshness and life affirming appraoch… No past luggage or complexities etc.. With Osho you basically dont have anything to lose.. You end up celebrating and dancing a little more than others do.. Thats not bad … Thats is enough for me “
Just to add
If few people are put off by someone dancing infront of Osho photo.. So be it.. Who cares?
Infact the guyes who are put off should understand themselves better.. May be they shoud do a heart meditation instead of asking that they dont want to see anyone dancing like that.
I dont want all kinds of people coming there with wrong intentions ..
But how do you define and how do you differentiate?
Most of all who are we to do it? Acting like a moral policeman
Like Sw Chaitanya Keerthi says Wherever we see someone creating trouble we can handle that in a specific way..But in the fear of few people doing things like that we cant stop everything related to heart..
Risk is always there everywhere..
In my office we have all kinds of regulations , rules and discplines..But people always stab you at the back , bosses always treat people in a biased manner , people always cheat & benefit at the cost of genuine & dedicated people
Try living a corporate life .. that too in a big corporate. We will know what human beings are made up of.. all this talk of systems , democracy , justice will mean nothing… Those are words used by people who are in power.. They know they always get what they want .. They just need to project things in a democratic way.. Thats all…
To me all this talk of democracy is sheer bullshit.. as Osho said essentially there is no difference .. It is the same game of exploitation
The biggest democratic countries are the most corrupt & most dishonest countries
Not for a moment i am sgguesting we need to go back to Dictatorial rule etc.. No.. Dont misunderstan me.. But let us not dance by holding democracy on our head
I see how people starve due to povert in India
I see how people have to bribe hopital officials just to get some one get admitted
I see police stations where women are raped
All in the name of democracy.. just an empty word
And here we are spilling the one opportunity & Vision we got from Osho to create a truly beautiful place .. an organism.. with immense potentail for entire world.. If we succeed in Osho’s vision then the whole world can be benefit out of that model and we can throw democracy in the dust bin..
I like what Oshobob said in the last two posts of him
Especially..
” Osho can come into your life as much as you want him to. ”
But we can not fix lower limits and upper limits for Osho to come in to someone like the way they do in stock markets..
Taking that much liberty is worse than what Hitler and Stalin did
Anthony, just a little remark concerning approaches etc. You wrote: “But if you use it as an understanding underling unconscious support of pain producing psychological structures, it is just like a glass of water in the desert.”
I agree, but then a more moderate or humble terminology should be used instead of overall religious pretenses! Style and language indirectly tell a lot about the underlying content and motivations. It is a good indicator for the nonsens warning lights to flash. The sense for openness and realism is always endangered as the brain feels more secure with fictitious, pseudo final answers. Philosophies and religions tend to produce a coverage of all and everything. In contrast openness is a process without a defined goal. It produces more freedom than closed systems which usuallly claim to absolute right and mostly are about absolut results (like communism or enlightenement). It needs modesty and courage, thus preventing megalomania.
Repeating remberences about good feelings we had is a pleasing feature of our emotional system and the brain. These feelings easily become a addiction and create lot’s of problems (for e.g. religions). Rememberance is a poet. The farther away you are, the more rosy memory becomes. Shantam lived a great deal of his live in Pune. As he does not paint it rosy it tells me that his experience is profound. You are honest and courageous. Anthony could afford to come and go, not even a sannyasin, officially keeping distance, a bit cooler so to say, but in fact a devotee to me. To Kranti everything is on cloud seven and beautiful. And oshobob even want’s to save the world with osho. But ey, don’t get hooked with the place or with your feelings. To me it is important to walk your way. Those who refer to osho all the time or even taking on the name osho are cowards to me. It takes the same courage to go beyond it today as to join it in prior times. If you are greatful to osho, live it, be utterly absorbed in your live. It is always here and now. Never think you missed. Eveytime has it’s challenges and opportunities. It is easy to be knowledgeable, smart or wise when things have passed. But it is difficult to see and understand the PRESENT time. It is always risky because you don’t know the outcome.
Point 1:
Andreas , I wish what you said is true..
” To Kranti everything is on cloud seven and beautiful. ” What i have got from Osho is only a glimpse..potential..
But i am working all the time to make that potential real.. thinking that it is possible
Point 2:
You want to be very realistic and pragmatic..
I am asking you how we define what is realistic and what is pragmatic?
I there a general ‘ Reality & Pragmatism “
Is your reality or pragmatism limited because you had some bitter experiences earlier.. Would it have been different if things around had gone differently?
In Pune 1 , Oregon and Pune 2 everybody had same possibilities unfolding.. But why some people came out with positive experiences and some with negative experiences?
But If what happens to me as an individual has nothing to do with that Vision or the possibilities which Osho points to .. Does it?
Again Osho never asked us to walk away from life or specific reality.. He only showed us the potential & possibilities
Point 3:
You say
” If you are greatful to Osho, live it, be utterly absorbed in your live. It is always here and now. Never think you missed. Everytime has it’s challenges and opportunities. It is easy to be knowledgeable, smart or wise when things have passed. But it is difficult to see and understand the PRESENT time. It is always risky because you don’t know the outcome. ”
This is very different point of view from you from earlier posts where you said what Osho tried to convey is not realistic or damaging..
If you accept your point of view as above , then you should not be bitter about the outcomes .. Should you?
Ideally i should not be asking for a PUNE 2.. I should be living what is available now.. But i also have a right to modify a few things which i am not happy with rather than saying ‘ it is reality and let me stick to it ‘ approach
Only thing is I should accept the outcome of the efforts I am taking..
Point 4:
And what are we going to achieve by being realistic and pragmatic which are defined by ourselves anyway?
Ultimately it is all a concept.. be it realism or spiritualism , Pragmatism or Vision
Until you wake up and see the ultimate reality.. if there is one..
Just to add Andreas
i have faced failures and pains for last 15 years
Things have never been rosy be it financial or relationships or pleasure
May be Osho gives me hope..some possibilities
I am ready to risk things to look at those possibilities rather than being very realistic
End of the day i dont have anything to lose except this life.. Which anyway i am going to lose.. at least i will know i gave it a shot
But i am aware you have already done it.. What you may say now doent matterwhen you were young you had the courage to plunge and live life
I admire you for that
Deep down i am even jealous of You and Shanatm
Shantam said if he wants to see a Pune 2 for people like Kranti…
Such love.. He has seen the beauties and he wants a whole new generation to taste the same
I wish i am a little younger..I am already 40 and things dont look that rosy.. But still…..based on the glimpses i had , i feel Osho is whom youngsters should look up to make their life beautiful
Dont worry about the risk and consequences Andreas
Touch your heart and tell us
Didnt you feel all the beauty and bliss when you lived those periods? Didnt yoy dance madly? Didnt you celebrate passionately ?
let us do something to ensure few more youngsters can get same taste of life
I wish we all are in buddha hall dancing and hugging instead of sitting in different countries and postings messages in a forum.. Too bad..
It is called buddha grove now. and dancing is at 10:45.
And this is my point: change.
We do not know what would have been of the whole place if osho was alive. In pune 1 no one would have imagined that Osho will drop the mala and the red clothes 5 years later,
but he did. the last thing he said directly ( many things recorded as his last dead bed wishes, like I will dissolve in my people) were said years before; was he wanted the place to be as club-med. he said that.
Now, to be stuck in the past is silly. i understand your anger towards me Shantam, but, you know, I live my life, no one is my master, not even osho. I am my own man. I do not even care if osho would have liked me or not. I like myself and I make my own judgment and decisions. I do not need to hide behind anyone.
You once asked me about my sannyas name. Obviously because you thought that if I spoke positively of Osho , then I was a devoted sannyasin. I am not.
And I am sorry. I still think that kissing green marble structures have nothing to do with waking up.
And we do not know what would have happened if the guy was alive now. why suppose that the last development when he was alive was the maximum potential?
In 2004, A guy named harideva did some sort of Osho festival in goa. It didn´t work out, not many people went there, Neelam and Jhoti meditation camp had 6 people.
In the night there was music group with old poona and ranch songs. I used to like those songs so i went to the event. 20 people around a fireplace singing these songs. I tried for a while… But then I got this feeling of this being some sort of manufactured revival of something that was alive once, but now it was just a bunch of old guys who could not let go of the past.
So, Kranti, you say: if someone wants to dance around an osho picture, what is wrong with that?
There is nothing wrong with that, but if you think that THAT will wake you up, you are just deluding yourself.
If that behavior becomes institutionally supported… you have the religion.
Veneration of a dead master is not what osho´s work was about. It was about waking up, connecting, being alive, being present.
Come on! deep down you know this Shantam
And shantam. I am good with figures. My estimate is that there were about 30000 people there last winter season. white robe was packed. 300 doing kundalini everyday.
You may not like this because you have an emotional investment in thinking the place is ruined to prove your point.
But is is not new people coming everyday….
what do you want me to say? there was no tables available in the dining area. I had to eat sitting on a low wall.
Now I do not have any investment in this place to survive or not. I love the place, it is important to me, but if it is gone it is gone.
So, far still thriving.
I meant 3000 not 30000
sorry
One last point. Shantam your are religiously minded. You find divinity and peace in catholic rituals, and European churches, For me they are just beautiful architecture, cold and unwelcoming places with a statue of a dead guy bleeding, nailed to a piece of wood.
I am not a religious person. In fact i think religion is poison.
And I think Osho would have agreed with that,
Anthony
I asked ” if someone wants to dance around an osho picture, what is wrong with that? ‘
I didnt say it will wake you up
Dancing like that is just an expression of his joy
It is not a question of old people / new people
To me what i feel is fresh..
To me dancing in buddha grove is fresh..
I need the place to express myself
Just because 20 years of have passed does not mean an Individuals’s expression has changed
Ultimately we are talking about Joy , Dancing and Celebration which is the same as it was 2000 years ago as far as an Individual is concerned..
You didnt read my post fully.. I never said i dont want change .. I never said i am into devotion or worshipping
I am happy to see the New Osho Auditorium.. It is better than old Buddha Hall..I am not attached to sentiments related to past or certain physical structures here
But i am talking about an individual’s expression of joy.. And that has not changed.. any effort to curtain that expression is wrong
If somone kissed the green marble out of joy it is his expression in that moment.. It is nothing to do with devotion or blindness
You cannot say ” Dance blissfully.. But when it comes to expressing you need to express in specific ways only ‘
Thats is sheer arrogance .
If Osho had been alive He would have kicked out that guy who puts that kind restrictions on expression
You say
” But then I got this feeling of this being some sort of manufactured revival of something that was alive once ”
The effort itself is wrong.. how can you recreate the past.. Contantly you must have been comparing the old days to what was happening on that night..that compariosn itself would have allowed you to celebrate
I am teaching you psychology here.. I can not.. Dont take it your mind please..
How can you compare & recreate past feelings ?
Anthony : I didnt expect you to miss this point.. I feel sad.. If i am wrong and didnt interpret please let me know
In the same place allow 20 youngsters to dance.. what they feel is relevant and fresh for them.. there is no past to compare with.. they will carry that feeling their whole life
In short all i am saying is Make Changes..But dont play with the freedom of expression.. let us not be arrogant enough to say only one particular way of expression is allowed
anthony corrections to my post…left out a few ‘ NOT s’
” The effort itself is wrong.. how can you recreate the past.. Contantly you must have been comparing the old days to what was happening on that night..that compariosn itself would have NOT allowed you to celebrate
I am NOT teaching you psychology here.. I can not.. Dont take it your mind please.. “
Anthony
You say ” I live my life, no one is my master, not even osho. I am my own man. I do not even care if osho would have liked me or not. I like myself and I make my own judgment and decisions. I do not need to hide behind anyone ”
I dont have rights to say it is wrong.. But my feeling is this is the point Osho always talked about..
A western mind gets attracted easily but it doesnt surrender or let go beyond a point
Ultimately it is your life.. But there are certain truths about life are not relelated to Head..
You yourself say
” It was about waking up, connecting, being alive, being present.’
How can you connect abd be alive if you dont let go ( surrener is just another name for let go )
To go off track slightly..
Words are not important.. The tragedy is most of the words used to in East are either respected in an ugly manner or thrown away in dust bin saying it is bad
So many Sanskrit words are treated the way we will not even treat god if He comes infront of us..held on to as though they are precious
Some words like surrender are looked upon so badly because it is against ego..
Words just words
We all surrender or let go in our daily life to our parents , beloved and even to dogs sometimes.. even to scotch whiskey …But we will not surrender to life ( through a master who is nothing but a gate ) because thats is too much for the ego..kind of irreversible
Andreas
Please reply for the below .. i feel bad you are not accepting all the beautiful moments you went through
” Touch your heart and tell us
Didnt you feel all the beauty and bliss when you lived those periods? Didnt yoy dance madly? Didnt you celebrate passionately ? “
Kranti. who tell you i do not let go? If you think that the only way to let go or surrender to life is to do so to another human being you are just being hindi, bindi propagandist.
I surrender completely to the way things are now in the resort.
Or better said. they agree with me, but if you like I can call it surrender.
Anthony..i didnt mean that..
You always said
” no one is my master, not even osho. I am my own man ”
I looked at it as ‘ Not letting Go’
But if you feel it is not the case.. I am sorry about that
I also didnt say.. Surrendering to another human being is the ONLY way.. In the CONTEXT of this thread it is Osho..thats why i said ‘surrendering to the master ‘ not as a general theory
Anthony, I agree with most of what you said above. I am not so shure about the future of the place like you, but actually that’s not my concern. I have not even been there since 15 years, so I don’t know what’s going on, except from what I hear. Yet I would like to ask you Anthony why do you think Osho did not demolish the organisation to prevent another stupid religion? I guess we agree that he knew well about the subject. Why, from your perspective, did he not act upon it? You are well informed, you know about the various phenonema around osho. Some of them we discuss here. Osho obviously meant sannyas to be maintained and at the same time must have known the consequences theroff! Wanting the whole thing to go on on one hand and saying he would not care about the future on the other hand. How do you cope with that? If you think what is happening in the resort is what osho wanted, I really wonder about your contradicting and critical view about the copyright stuff, the banning etc. These are massive subjects and the divions are hurting and wounding many sannyasins. You know my standpoints: to me all of this is rooted within Oshos views, perceptions and concepts about himself and about the world which was embodied in his methods. But how do you cope with this, I really wonder? Surrender?
Again I agree with your standpoint about Shantam, churches, religious mindedness etc. I was wondering about Shantam too, but I decided not to go into it, because I think Shantam knows what you tell. I am not for consolidations and I am antagonistic to christianity, but I also know that if your life is such, that you have to work for two euros you start seeing things from a different perspective. I have had both in my live. Nearly nothing and good wealth. I know the narrow mindedness of poor people as well as the narrow mindesness of rich people. I understand very well why Osho called himself the guru of the rich. But I also think Osho was blinding out pain and suffering. They are facts and if you blind it out you do not mature. Osho avoided it by taking drugs.
Kranti, I like to answer to you. But please calm down and relax a bit. This way it is too much for me.
Andreas. I do not know for sure why he did not demolish the whole thing. Perhaps his intention to turn the place into a health club or club-med was his way of deconstructing the temple. Or perhaps not. I do not know.
I interviewed Ananado about osho saying that she will be her medium. She said to me that she honestly did not know what that meant, but she suspected that it was a way for stopping anyone declaring to be his medium. So, Anando was the Official… although she never said anything in that respect. for her it was just another joke.
Supposedly Osho said somethings about the work to the inner circle. but those things have never been reveled. Not even to me.
Regarding sannyas, and this is something I have no way to confirm it was true, but it was said to me by one of the original inner circle member… a lady.
She said that osho didn´t want sannyas to be given after he was dead, but some other members of the circle thought it to be a beautiful symbol, and finally he said OK.
last year sannyas giving and malas was stopped in the resort. If you want to use a name it is up to you. they still keep a sannyas celebration, which is like a party, for anyone, sannyasin or not, to meditate and dance.
I asked vatayana of the inner circle if she was not concerned that other people, like the guys in delhi would start giving sannyas ( which is what has happened).
She said to me:”We just want to let it all go.
if someone wants to do that… it is their problem. but we stopped it.”
Regarding copyright and banning. You know I do not agree with that.So, I do not have the need to defend that. neither I have the need to agree on everything to go there and enjoy what the place offers to me.
The same was with osho. I did not agree on everything, but that does not mean I could not appreciate the man.
Andreas you ask me “But how do you cope with this, I really wonder? Surrender?”
This is my point: I do not have to cope with anything… I am not joining any organization. I am just myself, there, here, everywhere.
I do not feel I have to apologize for not having been a sannyasin, or to apologize for loving the old man.
AS Osho once said “contradictions dissolve in me”. I feel it like this. I take what I want and I am not obliged to anything.
I am still Anthony Thompson P.H.D… an Osho critical and fan. Both together.
Anthony / Andreas / Shantam
I want to be very honest on one point
( it is not that i am not honest otherwise..just stating this one explicitly )
In a way i am not different.. although i never lived in Pune 1 or ranch or Pune 2.. i have read so much about those days very passionately.. I used to regret i was not there..there were times when i used to be in tears because i missed being with Osho
So even when i am dancing in Bhuddha Grove nowadays , i am not total.. I keep asking myself ‘ if only i had been there when Osho in the body ‘ .. i know it is absolute stupidity..But i keep doing it.
May be thats the reason i want to see a Pune 2.. ..as i am still holding on things which i was not even part of.. Ridiculous..
Unlike Shantam who wants to see a Pune 2 because of right reasons , i may be deep down selfish and immature..trying to compensate for what i missed
Chetna was saying .” That there must have been some deeper connections ..Otherwise how can you feel so much Love for Osho “.. Possible..
But If i look at rationately i am immensely attracted to his teachings.. because of the way he thrashes conditionings .. that goes very well with me..may be thats is the reason
Seems Self Confessions are ON..
Anthony and me are done with self confessions ( Sorry Anthony.. I am taking your last post as a self confession )
Shantam / Andreas : Your turns… let us let go
Anthony, our congruency must be boring for the others now. All the sharing and fighting extended my understanding and also softly shifted feelings. It is quiet unlikely that I might go and see the place again. Yet I will never forget the sound of crackling bamboo besides Buddha Hall.
Wow, you guys are really something.
Whether you are actually four separate people, or just four designed character mock-ups created by the editors of sannyasnews, I don’t know, but one thing is sure — Osho got into your bloodstream(s) at some point, and you can’t get him out, even if you wanted to.
And he said that too many times — at least on this point he has proved to be right on target.
And dont exclude yourself Oshobob
You are a real witness..quitely watching everything.. and coming up with those beautiful one liners like
” Good thoughts all around, but I think we need Osho’s guidance again. It would be very useful. ”
” Osho can come into your life as much as you want him to.”
I feel honoured Oshobob because of your statement
” Osho got into your bloodstream(s) at some point, and you can’t get him out, even if you wanted to.”
It is true..
Andreas. I know what you mean. we are turning boring for others to see. It is like you go to see a boxing match and you find the fighters seating and sipping tea and discussing world affairs.
regarding the crackling bamboos. they kept the white marble of the floor. so you can hear the bamboos crackling when you are there for morning classes, dancing, or just painting around , as I do.
I´ll sen you some pictures to your mail.
Osho quote
” Life is offering you individuality, but it is also hammering your ego at every step of the way. It is not always easy to identify which is which. Awareness and experience should do the trick. With each little illusion that goes, you are one step closer to real.
“Ego is your personality, the truth is your individuality. You have to drop the personality. You have to stand utterly naked before existence. You have to melt down like ice into the ocean of this great divineness all around.”
I took that from Horoscope.. so first part may not be part of the quote
So enough of sipping tea. In accord with Krantis great osho quotes about personality are you shure “I am still Anthony Thompson P.H.D”. “Anthony Thompson” hm that’s your parents choice ok, but P.H.D… come on… oshobob it’s your turn for a rhyme and a rap on P.H.D… think we have to find a sannyas name for Anthony…
A joke i remember recited by Anthony’s old man but was choosen by the Joke team coordinated by Vimal-
Paddy reaches home before his usual time and see his wife in a compromising position with his friend Murphy.
“What are you doing in my bed with my wife”, exclaims Paddy.
“We are listening music”, replies Murphy coolly.
“Don’t lie to me, i cannot hear anything”, shouts Paddy.
At this his wife says,” Silly, how you can hear anything. you are not pluged in”
Sometime it is a question of prospective, who is pluged in and with whom.
Yes.. We have to give sannyas name to Anthony
My choice is ‘ Swamy Gyan Green Marble ‘
Gyan is Hindi word for Knowledge ( My understanding ) and He likes those Green marbles in Buddha Grove
Still two confessions are due.. But i think Shantam had given a sort of confession in wanting to be a guru and all that..
Andreas has to answer my question.. I just asked him..’ Did he really enjoy all those beautiful Pune / Ranch moments ‘ .. He is not telling me anything..
He should share some of those beautiful moments with us
Actually, I prefer the white marble of Buddha grove. the green podium is usually infested with people sunbathing, due to the fact that is is the only spot where the sun hits directly. I do not like heat. so white marble for me.
Regarding the P.H D. status… it is groovy and girls looks at you differently after you mention the degree.
when I was younger I did not need it. Today, it is as good as a six pack stomach.
Ok.. I thought Gyan Green was very rymic
Morever i though it will a good place for you to sit and take statistics
here we go
Anthony Thomson will be known as Swami Gyan White Marble from today
Yes.. At this age a P.H.D is required to attract girls ( did you mean Girls or Women Anthony? Sorry , Swami. GWM? )
girls , of course, what do you take me to be?
Guys i extended my stay in office for another 1 Hr 30 Minutes..
Make use of my knowledge in that time..Learn as much as possible..( Communication via net is safe )
( I am not sure about my home internet connection )
Sorry..I thought you cant use your P.H.D on girls.. It will suit Women only.
Just wondering what Frank or Oshobob will think of your new sannyas name and P.H.d usage
Anthony, i don’t find divinity in the Europian churches, i find divinty on the lakes, i find divinity in the Sauna, on the nudist beaches…, i find beauty on the heap of garbage too, what to say about those people who sit before the railway stations with their dogs and beer bottels.
I find the beauty when Andreas says Osho lied, osho cheated, there is a logic, proper logic. When Osho rips apart the masters of other schools, honestly and with dignity, i wll accept fingers pointing towards him too. I say it myelf that Oregaon experiment was bound to doom as its foundations were utterly illegal, the rules of the land were utterly discarded, and not in some banana republic but in the land Osho has utter regard and respect.
There are more than 30 to 40 discourses where Osho motivates India to follow America rather than the Communist Russia.
As per the laws of Tort, Osho being the boss of the game owe the responsibility of all the illegalites. But How he went into the trap created by the over calculated and over enthusastic group of disciples; if Andreas shed some light over this, it will be fun.
Logic and clarity is one thing, consumer mentality is another….and Anthony, The Master himself was booting out the people who were coming there to have fun but wanted to keep their stupid pride. it showed utter lack of self esteem.
And it is just the last two years i have not been to Poona, otherwise 100 days a year i was always there.
I have my business interests there, dozens of my friends are there and every day i phone this or that in Poona. SO figures are also on my tip.
i have no vested interest in the old poona or new poona, but my interest is in the power and influence of His words, His vision. My commitment is not with my fucking self, but with the reality of some hypothetical reality comprised of Truth, honesty courage and democratic behaviour.
I am for sure thankful to Osho and thousands of educated cultured and rich people i have seen surrundering their pride during His life time, for sharpening this up.
There is a beautiful song in Hindi, roughly translated it means-
Do you know the courage of the man
who lost the game to see other winning…
Can you comprehend how strong that man must be;
who bowed down in an instant!
If people feel ashamed to bow down at green marbel , thry should also feel ashamed over their intelligence that they are watching some common sense sermons of a dead man on a video screen.
These people should also feel ashamed when they pay 10 euros to ask a question to some travelling saint or when they buy some self help book because the life is creating a pain in their ass.
That makes me think..
Osho should have tried to open a commune like that by buying a big unoccupied Island and creating a paradise there.. No one would have troubled him there
He could have thrown those Sheelas into the sea..
By now Swami Kranti Devaptha would have been happily meditating and running around girls on the beach..
Oh! What a loss..
Well, if you think it is the same to listen to someones message, as it is to kiss a green stone where that persona delivered the message from… we can not even discuss. because we stand so far apart that ever meeting it is simply impossible. So any discussion in this way is futile.
Shantam you were the one who said that went to christian churches, dipped your hand in the holy water and felt great.
I think rituals are poisonous.
You may not like the fact i am not a sannyasin, but that is your trip, not mine.
I never needed to be accepted by Osho. It was not my trip.
And it is my pride.
No Shantam.. Please.. Please let us not get into that ‘ Osho being the boss responsible for this and that ‘.. We had done it and we all knew what is each others view point on that .. We will run into circles if we start again..
Kranti, You have got my confeesion. I want to be a guru!.
For sure, The best brains of the west want to be the CEO’s of fortune 500 companies, best of India always wanted to be seekers of truth. If in the process, they become guru, that is a secondary matter.
No dear, i was saying that most of us here in this discussion board have the traits in this direction, including you.
And yes, if Life washes me enough to be one in the line of Osho, J or UG, i will be glad to take the chance.
Otherwise, i don’t need to work in this line for money, recognition, girls etc.
Many times few of my freinds used to say in Poona, earth is in danger. we must do something to save her.
My response was always,”Sorry, i am not going to inherit Donad Trumps empire, why i should bother to save this real estate called earth”
so saviour complex is also not there..
Just live like every other creature and die… Is it not beautiful!
You know Shantam.. Andreas said that his feelings have shifted…He is more in a softer space. Let him enjoy that for few days ..
Andreas please stay in that ‘ space ‘
PS- And in the process called Life, to get a chance to become a disciple and devotee of One of world’s most controversial master, it is quite fullfilling.
For many in the west it was a nice experience, but for many in India it was a culmination of some eternal journey.
I remember famous Indian Journalist Pritish Nandy saying,” By producing Osho; India has paid back the debt of the west.”
Yes Shantam..i agree.
Not sure which teacher..I think it is Adyashnathi . I was hearing this few weeks back
” That if life feels human beings are not at the service of life it will say ..thanks Bye and wipe out human race..”
If Human beings think they are very vaulable to life and they can do anything they will one day face the harsh reality.. Life on earth will become unlivable.. and Thanks Bye Bye..
and
” And yes, if Life washes me enough to be one in the line of Osho, J or UG, i will be glad to take the chance.”
Me too.. But first thing first .. let me awake..
You want to be awaken guys?…stop kissing green marble!! ah, ha
And you shantam… get off the churches please!!
Anthony; You may not like the fact i am not a sannyasin, but that is your trip, not mine.
90% of my freinds are non sannyasins. Mothers of my children are non sannyasins.
It is Osho who told us that if we know the joy of bowing down than it is not a question before whom…
I wanted to experiment with this and find it right. I bow down at the Churches and also other places of worship irrespective of the fact which religion they belong too, exactly the way i have listend Him saying.
If Osho’s disciples will not experiment with His words and vision, who else will do.
It is just part of the home work.
PS- in these 90% of non sannaysin friends you are also one Anthony.
Without you it would have been only 85%
I never even thought about kissing the Green marble
Anthony you are just projecting it on me ( I am not serious )
All i said is if someone dances infront of Osho photo or kisses the marble out of joy after dancing it is his expression.. And we should not interfer.. thats it..
Without doing all those if someone sits cross legged in zazen, do you think he will get awake?
Awakening is not like the gurantee that comes with TV..
So you have 18 friends Shantam ( I am very weak in Maths )
Shantam, you must have read or heard Hindi discourses from Osho speaking about that. Because from 1984 till the day he died, he was demolishing that kind of behavior.
And, in a way, that is the beauty with Osho: he spoke so much, that you can take whatever you want.
Now, as far as your joy of bowing down. Now that you are in Germany, why don´t you go to Hitler´s bunker in Berlin. I bet there is a strong energy there.
Besides, after all it does not matter to what or whom you bow down… and all distinctions are in the mind.
Man, you have a religious mind… live with it!
Hey Guys..You know what is my understanding is
Osho never spoke to you guys
He had ‘His people ‘ to whom he spoke everyday
As they grew in their spritual maturity his discourses also changed to suit their requirements
After 1984 only people who had real strength and Love stayed back.. and they needed Zen as a kind of last push..
You guys are fighting against each other thinking Osho spoke to you all.. Haha ..Crazy guys
A friend of mine who has started listening to Osho just two years back at the most , was able to detect the growth path of Osho’s teachings..
KrantI. stop dancing in front of Osho´s picture, as a psychologist i tell you…. GET Laid!!!
May be this should be our next thread..Who can send mail to editors?.. Think Andreas or Anthony should start
Anthony.. It is your turn..( Mail to Editors )
it would be a really interesting topic to discus how Osho’s discourses changed or evolved over those twenty years
Shantam / Anthony: What do you guys think ?
( We will leave this Maitreya thread before he gets to us with His unity theory again )
Think about it
I am leaving office.. If my hone internet connection is back, i will login from home..
One of the pleasures of writing in this place, Kranti, is that i do not have to create a whole article, just respond to what ever other people are saying… so no article for now.
By the way, it looks like Frank´s girlfriend is back.
I shared this in facebook also
MJ’s death stops the Dance of Life for a moment
To me He lived a intense life which Osho always talks about
I thank existence for having MJ with us
“This temptation of the mind to reduce every wonder, every mystery,
to a question, is basically fear-oriented. We are afraid, afraid of the tremendousness of life, of this incredible existence. We are afraid.
Out of fear we create some small knowledge around ourselves as a protection,
as an armor, as a defense. It is only cowards who reduce the tremendously valuable capacity of wondering to questions. The really brave,
the courageous person, leaves it as it is. “
The words above from Osho are for us and for those who think Bonsai is easy to manage, A Banyan tree, too big, too complicated, people can put the candles under it, can bring their cows under when it is too hot….
But these mind junkies never think that under the shades of a Banyan tree, the eternal seekers can also rest for a while, meet the people who are going in many directions…
Well…. to rest under a shady tree is too Indian, why don’t these seekers carry an umbrella with them. And to meet another seekers, just buy a blackberry, or log in to sannyasnews or facebook, the way you are doing, Mr. Singh!
There was a nice post from Amrito in facebook about an incident involving Jackson and Osho..If interested take a look
I am very moved by what Michael Jackson has decsribed about Dance & Creativity.. same words used by the mystics..
Well described
” Well…. to rest under a shady tree is too Indian, why don’t these seekers carry an umbrella with them. And to meet another seekers, just buy a blackberry, or log in to sannyasnews or facebook, the way you are doing..”
http://oshobytes.blogspot.com/2009/06/silent-osho-explosion-in-india.html
The king of pop had quiet some things in common with Osho. His success ended in the 80th, with the decline of the era of stars. A decline introduced by legal problems, drug problems, health problems, megalomania. A fantasy figure. Attention is the currency of the show biz. Jackson and Osho, they both new how to get it. A scandal? No problem! But today? It changed. As Andy Warhol proclaimed, anyone is able to be a star for about 15 minutes, be it casted ot self proclaimed, on stage or in the internet. Everybody is a competetor and able to steal a little from others.
I was reading Sadhana’s blog and came across Osho’s thoughts on ‘ Co-Existence ‘..
Incidentally our discussion in the earlier thread which i started also related to the possibility of Co-existence of different Osho centres .
I am giving the link here..
http://oshobytes.blogspot.com/2009/06/co-existence-no-one-existence-says-osho.html
We say we can not have copyrights in the age of Internet.. Again logic comes into play.. Precisely because it is difficult to maintain the purity of thoughts and works by someone we need to enforce copyrights.
‘ Difficult to maintain ‘ is not an excuse to do away with copyrights.. Thats throwing a baby with the bathtub..
We didnt have copyrights during Buddha’s period because no one had fear of piracy and arelated issues..If buddha had been alive today his first reaction would be to request for copyrights including ‘Getting enlightenment under a Bo Tree’
And i just read that Osho Friends International who have been making such a big fuss about copyrights had also made efforts get copyrights for Osho. It seems what they are doing now is the reaction for that failure..
That said ..
…sharing thoughts in this forum has given me a better understanding of other people views.. Every view has its own pros and cons..
That makes me think .. Running a place like Pune Resort is a different ball game than expressing opinions in a forum..
Expressing opinions does not have limitations & challenges. But running the resort has.
We can share whatever we want and in that process , if we are honest we can finetune the way we think and act.. But when it comes to managing the resort one is continously forced to take decisions and decisions once taken have their own course ..
Osho said you can think about whether to put forward your left foot or right foot.. But once you decide and put forward your right foot then the next step available step for you for you is left foot..
You cant do anything about it.. If you dont accept this simple fact you will be immobilized
So we can have big thoeries about which foot should be taken forward before doing the same..
Therein lies the issue..Pune resprt has its own challenges and past decisons and their courses..
As far as i see there are three things which are common between Osho and MJ
The intensity and Totality with which they lived
Their creativity and pasion for life
The bad publicity they got from media because they were famous and courageous in expressing themselves.
The Decline was induced by the ‘negative news hungry media ‘ and ‘ the people who needed that kind of info for adding spice to their life ‘
Media enters into someone’s life so violently and when that person takes legal help we say ‘ they got into too many legal issues ‘
Someone famous has health problems like everyone has ..But media projects it as ‘ they had drug problems & health problems ‘ as though other people dont have drug problems and health problems. We dont realize they are just famous people but not immune to health problems and physical pains and the need for drugs..It is none of anyone’s business
Someone is courageous enough to question social evils .. then we call them ‘ megalomania’ and all that kind of stuff..
And we go and vote for someone to run the conuntry who is the real ‘ megalomaniac’.. And pat ourselves on the back for having participated in democracy and exercising our voting rights & duties as citizen
On the one hand we will talk about someone’s Vision , Wisdom and the Beauty of it and on other hand we will say that the guy dragged everyone into hell because of stupidities..
Ways of the world..
If this forum is going to start discussing about Michael Janckson… I leave… I swear!!
Come on Frank! get rid of the girlfriend!
Common Anthony.. I posted only little bit about MJ..and that too in the context of Osho
Otherwise this is the same bull ring for Copyrights & Osho related Issues
For a bull like you MJ kind of stuff is not enough challenge
Frank has dissolved into Maitreya ..Dont waste your time.
The addiction to pills that took over his life… and which finally destroyed him…
Thanks God, Mr. jackson, died because of pain killers, another possibilty was to die by doing some meditation prescribed by some healer, atleast he tried in the last months to change his religion,to get more peace and prosperity.
I remember in the old days of spirituality revival, all the PR machinary would have jumped that if you want to avoid the dependency on anti anxiety medicines do this or that technique offcially assigned by the existance.
The stupidity and mediocrity of the users of these techniques have shown to the world, better to take medicine than to follow hocus pocus. Just it has to be moderate.
Talking about religions..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%ABlism
I was reading about nee age religions and came across this..never knew about this..
As we say there is no possibility of big Masters in 21st century i also feel there is no pissibility of creating a big religion like this in the 21st century..these guys are wasting their time by trying to put together such a formal religion.. the key policies ofcourse revolves around sex..
Accidentally i typed ‘ pissibility ‘ instead of ‘ possibility ‘ But it suits the subject..
Michael Jackson and Osho did have one major similarity — that is, both developed a highly produced and choreographed stage show in which to project their performance to an audience. I think MJ had a bit more pizazz in the dance department, and Osho took the honors in content being given out. But, MJ was very popular, and Osho was not very popular. MJ went for the lowest common denominator and Osho went for the highest in human potential. Very different people. With very different results.
Well said, dearbob.
king of pop has gone, there any many prince and pincesses of Pop, there are queens of pop…MTv will never lack music and same with the stage shows, live shows….entertainment Industry is full of talent.
On a higher denominator, can some one tell me one or two names, who have replaced the vacuum created by Osho, J or UG.
In the scale of 10; someone upto 5 will also do.
No one can fill the Vaccuam
J can be Osho’s head
UG can be Osho’s Knee
Thats it.
Reason is
J was very dry..head Oriented..no beauty ..No poetry of life..No dance..No celeb..
UG: It was always Knee Jerk reactions.. So he takes the place of Osho’s Knee
At this rate we cant fill up the vaccuam left by Osho
Believe it or not, Shantam, I would give Osho Rajneesh, the lungi wearing guy, at least a 5. In the beginning I laughed at him, but I think this Indian guy has a lot of guts. He just posted a YouTube video on the need for dancing as a door to a peak experience — forget about meditation and enlightenment and no-mind, he says to a group of people in Belgium listening. Just dance. With a big picture of Osho in the background. I liked it a lot. He’s honest. He’s being sent out by Osho, I would say. He’s better than Michael Jackson, though both wear weird uniforms on stage.
Kranti, I think Shantam is excluding J and UG, because they are both dead. He’s asking who are alive people to fill the vacuum.
Oshobob ..Have you read the detailed account of experiences by Osho Rajneesh.. There is a book by him which gives a full account of his pune days and how he was treated by other disciples etc.. I also like him a bit..All he is saying is stillness in movements and meditation etc..Nothing bad at all..
Think people are unneccearily crirtical of him.. This is my view based on whatever i know so far..
Another is Swami Arun, who is in the US now on tour. Give him a 4. And the Osho Triumverate from Osho Dhara, give them 3′s or 4′s. But, remember, you can’t just add these up, to fill the vacuum left by Osho, If 3+3+3+4+5=18, that doesn’t mean it fills the space left by Osho’s 10, after his departure. We need a new math here. This is the Math of the Buddhas. You could have 1,000 or 10,000 new people, but if they weren’t as great as Osho, it would never add up to reach him.
Yo, Kranti, I have read the whole book in English by Osho Rajneesh, a year ago. But, he is changing too. He on tour now, and his rap is changing, I can tell easily. Osho changed too over the years, no doubt about that.
Well said Oshobob
This is the link.. If you have not read so far..Please read..It is very moving account..
http://www.oshorajneesh.net/osho_rajneesh_tears_of_the_mystic_rose.pdf
Oh.. What kind of changes..Just the travel or appraoch also?
As i said in my earlier posts the changes in Osho ( from 1970 to 1990 ) were in line with how ‘ His people ‘ grew and what their spiritual requirements were.
One area where i will disagree is this Oshodhara group.. I am not convinced there are honest..they are minus figures ‘ -5 ‘ If you add them up to arrive at Osho you will see the total reducing.. They are reversing what Osho taught..
Kranti, just the talking style of Osho Rajneesh, and the content too, is morphing somewhat. He’s more confidant, more free in his delivery, cracking some jokes…
I think Kranti, you might be too hard on the 3 Musketeers of Oshodhara — well, that’s 2 guys and one Ms. Dhara — but maybe it’s because you are Indian, and you have to come out more critical publicly against your homeboys and girls. It’s like blacks in America talk against blacks more easily, and jews talks against jews, and whites talks against whites. That’s seems to be natural in culture, and you can’t be accused of being rascist.
Oshobob. You need to get down to India, man. If you would have been there you would have not been impressed by Osho´s impersonator, in acharya rajneesh version, SW. Rajneesh. I know the guy from the time he was ” the slow walking man”, another harmless cooku in the commune.
Walking slow to show off how vipassaned meditative he was. A wealthy family guy, who did some money as watch designer. please look at the pictures on his website where he is imitating Osho´s every gesture. look at the movement of the hands. The guy lives down koregaon park, in Pune…I have sen him many times: he has the presence of a Tuna sandwich. he is really a case.
If you send me your email. i´ll send you something a friend of mine did ( I already sent it to Andreas) and you will enjoy.
Or write to my mail: athompsonphd@hotmail.com
But Anthony,obviously he’s impersonating Osho to some extent, but so what? It garners attention. It creates controversy. It generates criticism. That’s the name of the game in this media saturated world. People are jaded. If Osho Rajneesh just wore blue jeans and a T-shirt, no one who give him any notice.
Even Osho, in his winged, sequinced outfits of Pune 2 was imitating the American singing group The Commodores to a large extent. And Michael Jackson’s dance moves were basically created on the streets of American cities by unknown break-dancers — you just don’t know about them by name, that’s all. We are all standing on the shoulders of our predecessors to some extant anyway — even professors, who wear Levi Docker pants, Oxford shirts, and tweed suits with leather patches on the elbows — isn’t that a trip?
Osho bob. You say : “If Osho Rajneesh just wore blue jeans and a T-shirt, no one who give him any notice.”
And why would we need to notice this Guy? what is his contribution? what is his important message that will go unnoticed if he is who he is? what will we be missing?
If Osho attracted attention with his drag queen start trek commodors outfit there was something behind that people would have been missing if he did not call that attention.
But this guy?
Have you heard him speak? I have. In India, specially in koregaon park you turn a stone and you get 10 guys like him coming out. The only difference is that he has the money to pay for the advertising… that is all.
Well, I’ve heard him on his YouTube videos, that’s all.
Talks about dancing, and the vertical energy rising to a peak spot…seems good to me. Better than listening to a dry academic psychology professor in the university classroom I would say.
Which brings me to another point, Anthony — why don’t you get your German yoga girlfriend to come on sannaysnews and give us some feminine charm and perspective. I would assume she’s interested in Osho, as you are. That would break up this male dominated monotony a little.
Anthony
Why dont you share that stuff with us also.. What you sent to Andrea and what you are going to send to Oshobob.. ?
And too, Tony, what’s wrong with using money to advertise and bankroll your tours and productions. Osho did it his whole life. All those big bucks women who fell into devotional love with Bhagwan had their purses loosened quite quickly by the master’s org, I would assume.
well, oshobob, precisely because she is a woman, she thinks that this forum is ridiculous and just a bunch of males trying to prove who has the biggest dick.
So no luck in that department.
Regarding Sw. rajneesh. certainly anything is better than listening to a psychology professor, but I think we have lots of other options than those two.
You see, imitation is a deficiency trip, fueled by a sense of self inferiority….
I could write like Osho. I have read over 250 of his books and i would sound profound and clever… But does that mean I am worth listening?
That is my point. I know this guy, I know about his previous intents to be noticed as the slow walking man, Please… I had a higher estimation of your critical sense Oshobob.
Thats what my point is also oshobob..
Anthony knows these guys better ..I agree
But comparatively this Oshorajneesh looks harmless and egoless..although i am not interested beyond a point
Anthony
All enlightened guys are supposed to do certain things similarly..Otherwise how will you accept they are elightened.. So oshorajneesh mey be doing few things like Osho..
But Oshodhara..No way.. they are kind of anti-neo-sannyas..trying to do things differently and thereby trying to prove..I dont know what..
oshobob loves oshopop
We have guys in India who read Osho for 15 years and became gurus..they wear jeans and sports shoes and all.. Only the teachings are copy paste..
Anthony, you say you could write like Osho, but your academic clarity is muddied here — Osho never wrote, except things like his Cup of Tea letters to friends. He spoke extemporaneously before an audience. Could you do that, and impersonate him and have people listen to you? Do you have that charisma, that magnetism, that power of presense that Osho had? Please post a YouTube video Anthony of yourself speaking to one of your classes in Chile, and we can decide here as a group on you talents in this field. That would be the acid test. At least Osho Rajneesh has the guts to do that, in the face of a lot of critcism by the couch potato peanut galleries around the world.
” but your academic clarity is muddied here — Osho never wrote ”
Oshobob got Anthony on the mat..Common Anthony ..let us see how you come out of this..
Well Andreas, you are back.
Now, what is it that you loved about Osho — Kranti has asked you a number of times, but you haven’t answered him. Did you dance passionately in Poona 1 ? Did you sit in awe of Bhagwan at his discourses?Yo or no? Germans are supposed to be honest and direct people, although you might be Bavarian, I’m not sure….
And Kranti, stay here, I have something to post to you on your questions to Swami Keerti that you had asked him a while back…
Oshobob. i insist get down to India. I have seen literally hundreds of sadhus, godmen, enlightened people, channels of the beyond, what ever. i do not get so impressed by a guy speaking slowly, from the living room of his house, saying we are all one, we are just identified with the mind and dancing is a way to the beyond. come on!
Sure, if I am relaxed in my house, with a groupie of students, i would sound so profound about the functioning of human psyche. Would I have the guts to put it in You tuve. probably not…First i am not that desperate, I do not think I am that great, and also I have a sense of aesthetics.
But have a white beard and I am older than rajneesh, so i would look much more like a guruji. even kranti will be impressed.
And Anthony, when you mention “inferiority” problems, it reminded me of frank’s assesment of my major psychological trait a while back, do you remember that? Now, this, in the field of cyber-forensic investigation — quite a new field — is a tip-off on a possible online identity collusion. Not definite, but a piece of the puzzle, notheless…Inspector Clouseauptha is always on the case…
Oshobob. i lost you in your last post. what are you talking about?
From what I have seen of YouTube videos of Osho Rajneesh, he doesn’t speak from his room, he’s all over the place — temples in India, lakes in Russia, parks in Belgium, rooftops in Amsterdam, etc…
And he doesn’t speak so slowly at all, very normal cadence to his speech I would say….
Anthony, I’m saying, since both you and frank used the same word “inferiority”, in different posts, you could be the same person, that’s all…
now, I’m ready for the backlash on this one…let me get my armor suit on, just a minute, guys…
ok, ready to rock…
Get down to India, sit with the Guy and then we speak..
I’ve never been to India in my life. Never heard Osho speak in person, but we discuss him all day it seems, no problem at all….
Oshobob. i take as a compliment the fact that you think Frank and I are the same person. specially considering that Frank´s comand of the English language is far better than me. he has an ability to play with words that i wish i had, but english is always a second language to me. If it was not for the spell check in my computer I will sound like a monkey.
By the way, the one who made the personality traits of this group members was me not frank… read again.
But i like the idea that you think I am frank…let me enjoy it for a while
Now, Anthony, you’re jumping to conclusions in a highly unprofessional way, if you consider yourself an academic research scholar. I didn’t say I thought you and frank were the same person, I said there is a linguistic link that connects the two identities. Just one word, that’s not much, I admit. It would never hold up in a court of law, you can ask the law graduate Shantam about that. Just a small piece of raw evidence that has to be laid out on the archeological dig platform. frank may not even be a real person, who knows? Both you and frank could be identities created by a common hand. That’s what I’m saying. Not necessarily though. Much more evidence would be needed for the case to hold water. Just a possibility. Among many.
Who made that list of major personality traits, I’m wondering myself….was it you, or Shantam, I’ll have to go back, where was it?
I did a list with the psychological traits of the members of this forum as if it was a therapy group.
regarding your suspicions. it is understandable. we could all be whoever. however, if you write to the mail i gave before I send you a picture of me.
now I´ll go to lay down a bit. I have the flu
I´ll come back later.
oshobob, I answered! And a beautiful answer I gave. Only Anthony got it. He listened and heard the sound of crackling bamboo. Kranti is forgiven, but you prove to be a show-off with every word you tell.
Now that I’m thinking of that again, Anthony, I think it was you who made that list, because I remember you included yourself on it with a trait, and I that stuck out.
Sorry for my mistake.
But still, my point is not so much on the true identities of anyone here so much, as on the subject in general for the larger world. Who is who? And can you create false identities and stories, and make an audience believe in them. Sure. It is so easy to do.
And this takes us to the Osho story too, and his impersonators, if they are. Same situation really. What do we really know of any of it, that is, the truth of it. Was Osho enlightened because he said he was enlightened, is it that easy. Or does it take something more to convince people. I think frank brought this up a while back with Keert — how can an unenlightened person pick out an enlightened person? Doesn’t seem possible.
Yes, Andreas, I am a show-off, but aren’t we all, otherwise why would we be taking time to post our thoughts on this site? And you say your answer, whatever it was, was “so beautiful” — that view of yourself is not showing off?!!
Sorry, if I forgot your post, you probably did do it, I’m sure. I make mistakes all the time — just trying to antagonize you a little, that’s all. I made a mistake on saying frank made the trait list. Though, I do believe, Andreas, that is was you who said, you have some doubts about frank too, wasn’t that right?
I have got franks IP-Adress so I know about his idendities
I am back Oshobob..
Anthony, hope your flu gets better quickly. But, a picture of you doesn’t really interest me, it’s just like words — they can be gotten from anywhere. In fact, I already saw a picture of you on your website you gave me where you refute C. Calder. That small photo of a man in his 60′s maybe, with a white beard, looking down in a pensive manner, appropriate to the professorial demeanor. Was that you? Ok, so far, so good. It may well be a photo a you, Anthony Thompson. Though again, not necessarily so.
But, you know, this happens all the time. For example, the American government makes up people all the time– they have propaganda departments just for that purpose. Vast too. With vast resources of money, equipment, and media control. The reality of any of it is always open to question. In my opinion, they made up Osama Bin Laden. He’s actually a real guy, but works for the US/World government agencies. Has an identity, photos, videos, the whole 9-yards, as we say in America. Very complex, in his case.
It is said at the Rancho Rajneesh, that Osho had doubles all the time driving around on the roads, “fake” Oshos. Maybe for security reasons, asssination attempt deflections, etc. Nothing wrong in it…it’s a very complicated and interesting set of tactical skills used by many groups and orgs.
Just because I say I’m “oshobob”, do you think I am? Maybe I’m a girl. Maybe I’m really a group of Chinese graduate students doing a class project on cyber propoganda. Maybe 14 people take turns writing my articles. If I send you an email, and a photo, so what? They could be made up easily too. So easily. If you don’t believe me, just try it.
Andreas
I saw that post ..I ask you some direct questions and you say something soft to Anthony
But still i replied delicately..you missed my reply
I sincerly thought you have become soft and kind of reliving some memories..thats why I said ‘Andreas please stay in that soft spot for few days ‘
Anthony
Use your skill and tell me whether i am wrong or rigt….Some changes happned in everyones approach
Anthony started ( showing ) becoming friendly to Andreas..irrespective of what Andreas says
Andreas and me started avoiding addressing each other directly although the replies were coming along
Oshobob became a little softer and reduced bullying me
Shantam : Not sure i couldnt detect major change
Kranti, this is what I wanted to say to you on Swami Keerti, when you were asking him to come on and post an article (about getting together as friends with Amrito and Jayesh, etc.).
I wrote an email to Oshoworld (actually, just asking if it was really the “real” Keerti that was posting on sannyasnews — you know me, I’m quite skeptical on the identity thing! and wondering why he didn’t reply to me on my posts…). Well, I got a reply saying that Keerti was not in Dehli, but up in the Himachal Pradesh (probably Osho Nisarga Center), and that he may not have access to computers all the time there, but yes, those were probably his posts, but they would double check and get back to me. So, that’s what I wanted to say, that maybe he didn’t reply to you, and to me (on my queries of the Osho Discourse problem at oshoworld.com, still unresolved), because he’s busy and out of town, and away from computers maybe.
Also, as an unexpected addition, I was asked by the staff at oshoworld.com if I would be interested in writing articles for their online monthly magazine! I couldn’t believe it. So, just to let you guys know here, your writing abilities could get noticed, and you could hit the big time in the blink of an eye, a flash of lightening, you never know, it’s possible, the strange things that being on sannyasnews can lead to.
Really, Andreas? What are frank’s identities, according to your IP Address info? Or don’t you want to tell?
Now, does anyone here thinks it makes any difference anyway? Let’s say one single person writes ALL these posts, creating actors in a play so to speak, an online theater production. And the purpose is just to have fun, or maybe do advertising for Osho’s vision on a global stage. Just created controversy, designed discussions. Would there be anything wrong in that? Maybe not. Simply a tactic in a larger strategy, for a particular group agenda. Used all the time, throughout history.
But if someone else wanted to question it, would there be anything wrong in that? Maybe not. Just the opposite surface, to create friction to sharpen intelligence and awareness. Adding the yin to the yang.
Oshobob
Thank you for the news as well as contact with oshoworld..
I really started thinking abt posting another message again to remind Keerthi..good that you told me..we will not understand others situation in the cyber connections
Nice to see that you will can contribute to oshoworld articles..something positive..
Incidentally i had a look at your website recently..It was very good.
Let me catch with some sleep as it is 1.30 am here.No weekend for me..Need to be in office tomorrow.
Will await Anthony Thomson P.H.D to reply my post
Have peace guys
Oshobob, you wrote: “And you say your answer, whatever it was, was “so beautiful” — that view of yourself is not showing off?!! ”
You are right in so far, as a Japanese might not say “And a beautiful answer I gave”. I was very aware of that, when I wrote the line, but you are like a fluttering cock in a cock fight. Kranti asked me about my good, my beautiful, my positive experiences. That’s what I did. I did not say “so beautiful” to exaggerate, but “And a beautiful answer I gave”, very simple, no hidden agenda.
I gave you a very delicate moment: Sitting in Buddha Hall. Silently. 3000 people silently. Just before Osho entering. Soft wind. Buddha Hall surrounded by bamboo. The bamboo is empty. Like a shakuhachi. It creates a eternal sound.The sound of bamboo crackling.
Anthony has heard this sound. He send me a picture of the bamboo, besides the place where Buddha Hall once was. I wrote back to him:
The bamboo has grown old. Like me.
Last post before going to bed. The flu is hitting strong.
yes, kranti we have all changed.
Andreas and I are now friends and it feels inadequate to discuss with him and win him over. We both look less fanatic in our positions.
Kranti has got a bit more developed in his arguments and less and less softy-feeling.
Oshobob is doubting of himself.
Chetna vanished with so much testosterone.
Chantam is more aggressive (no judgment here, I would be the same with two euros per hour of work)
And Finally Frank was forced to spend a week with her girlfriends parents… and there he is the poor guy.
Jealous of Andreas the bamboo
Bamboos might have grown old..But they have grown wiser also..they have tasted beautiful life..with Osho adding to the poetry of the moment
Yes Anthony: All this discussion with you guys have given me a balance in expressing my views
I will tell you guys something
Any thought or feeling i have for Osho to me was precious..I was holidng on to it without gettinng onto conflicting views
Now i have the courage to express my views in a forum like this and stand my ground
But i also understand it is because of the nature of participators here and their maturity.. People in this forum are NOT here just for winning arguements ..Each one of you had certain view point and but that was coming from the heart..
Like Shantam keeps saying ‘ the sharpness ‘ is high..
I must say a big thank you to you guys..
Andreas ..you dont have to say one more word about you ..
The following haikyu of yours says everything
” Soft wind. Buddha Hall surrounded by bamboo. The bamboo is empty. Like a shakuhachi. It creates a eternal sound.The sound of bamboo crackling. ”
Ah This!!!!!!…I am touched and moved..
Guys , Let us give Andreas a cyber-hug..
Just one more word Andreas : To me this is the real contribution of Osho..opening up the sensitivity in others towards life
Chantam is more aggressive (no judgment here, I would be the same with two euros per hour of work)…
When Anthony with your size M ego you jump on the conclusion it will be like this.
When someone jumps on colective willto impose his dicatorial idea, only than i feel aggresive otherwise i have heard hundreds of times that i very rarely loose temper.
When i mentioned about my 2 Euros job it was pride in my tone the way you say being some lecturar in some college. My mother has the same work like yours and i told her if i go in the same profession it will hurt my male pride.
And i have not come here in Europe for any kind of Job.i am here to be part of my children’s life, The ashram production, an experiment with east and west,
Bamboos cracking around Buddha Hall…
Just two years before, i had a häusli in Switzerland and we planted bamoos in the garden in memory of those Buddha Hall bamboos.
when they grew two meters long and were making the sounds and keeping their green years along, i used to hug them. Every month i go there and stay with them.
Still those Buddha Hall Bamboos are unique. They wee not in some private property nor in some public park, they were part of an Master’s experiement, first generation of seekers have looked at them.
Those seekers who were not going there for few weeks holidays, but found a project bigger than their life, their job.
Time and again i remember mornig Audio discourses in Buddha Hall and people sitting near bamboos with their breakfast plates.
Sometime some moisture in few eyes, while laughing over the jokes and taking care that coffee does not slip;
As a person grown up in Sikh religion, i remember when someone wrote, I am so thrilled to see people coming to the Master that if it is needed they can make shoes with my skin.
This is Jakob’s Path. This is pilgrimage.
All these above first generation seekers are spread fron Sao Paulo to Stutgart. They dared to take the jump…
Kranti, i really wish for you and other warm passionate people around the world that atleast one time you must have the taste of some project which is bigger than your life.
Google, Microsoft, Infosys, Nestle, UBS etc. are multi billion doller companies. it is a privelege to work for them but do they ever will satisfay the craving in the human heart, will they ever touch the longing for sublime….
When i remember Osho saying dozens of time that this ashram is a last dtch effort to protect the East otherwise west’s domination has spread in every corner of earth….
” Kranti, i really wish for you and other warm passionate people around the world that atleast one time you must have the taste of some project which is bigger than your life’
I am in tears Shantam
Time and again i wanted to stay inside the resort and do a residential program for few months..But my finacial condition never allowed me that freedom.. I dont have any savings left for me to take a break from job
I understand what you are saying Shantam
last week i was telling one of my friend that there is such a push from inside and i dont know when i will quit my job and run ..
I want to be part sonething bigger in my life..there is such a longing inside..thats why i keep saying i am jealous of you guys..
You say
” Google, Microsoft, Infosys, Nestle, UBS etc. are multi billion doller companies. it is a privelege to work for them but do they ever will satisfay the craving in the human heart, will they ever touch the longing for sublime….”
I never considered working for these companies as a privelege.. What we look at from outside is ‘ brands ‘ which are managed efficiently.. Inside all these companies are disgusting places with all the politics and back stabbing.. belive me i have worked in big corporates for 15 years..I understand how dirty these places are
Sometime back i wanted to arrange for few workshops for Devendra in the companies where i worked.. I faced bad reactions from the bosses and couldnt arrange anything.. Devendra said lovingly not to worry about results..
I really wish we all can be in Buddha Hall now dancing madly with the sound of bamboo crackling rather than posting messages in a forum..
I am in tremndous gratitude for Osho for opening up such beautiful possibilities in life..
Again..
You , Andreas and Anthony are truly blessed ..
Oshoboob
Think you will give more marks to oshorajneesh
See the link and behind him
http://www.oshorajneesh.net/2006_8.htm
When you are sure about the results of your product; you owe it to your fellow human beings, not to charge too exuberantly. Free is nothing in the world we all pay price in many forms. Gratitude is also a price, many times more worthily than the money. Every man worth the brain knows the value of this price.
It was a clear instruction from Osho that His literature will be published in an aesthetic way, hard bound copies but will be sold at the cost price. Robs were also sold at the cost price and food too.
If i use the business terminology, he knew the value of customer satisfaction, he knew for a successful business customer repetition is a must, also one must go on improving the products and services. Every happy customer will bring few new with and prices should be justified.
With the profit you indulge yourself in luxury but you improve the infra structure accordingly and moreover the essential commodities should be in the affordable price, luxuries should bear the high price tag.
And see, how successful enter prised he created, against all odds. There was no Internet, telephone was a rarity, ashram did not have many air conditioned chambers, A simple auditorium with a mosquito net and a Racine roof became the envy of the world.
Without doubt there was a support and sponsorship of prosper sannyasins, but that was the joy of sharing.
In 1991 when i started working in the ashram after my German fiasco, I did not know how i will manage the life in the ashram. I wrote a letter to Neelam Ma about the Osho scene in Germany,immediately she offered me the job as i have fire in my words but i must learn Hindi computer typing.
This job was not a supportive job. It has to be discussed first between the Inner circle( In the beginning every member gave the try). Till it was finalised, Jayesh has given me the 1500 Rupees food passes from his private money. I think it was for 2 or 3 months.
This act of sharing, i have not forgotten for a second.
It was a beautiful beginning of a Poona 3 phase. The organisation was moving by taking everybody with. In 1992-93 One of the Inner circle member and Neelam’s partner Tathagat was instructed to beg forgiveness from His Sannyasins. As a person in the seat of authority, he has broken the trust by using a lost neck less of a Sannyasin for personal gains. He must resign.
It was a harsh punishment but the assembly of the seekers approved it. It was a meritocracy working at a grass root level….
But somewhere on the way, mind of a priest started creeping in..
In one of the block buster stand up comedy in the ashram,one comedian mentioned, You know why people are not coming anymore. We were the outcast people of the society, the misfits and now the management wants us to behave properly and more over the Mantra is,” We decide, you follow”.
Never i have heard such a thunder of clappings.
Thanks for sharing that Shantam
Shantam
Have you seen this site
Thesufi.com
I am downloading some music of Nusrat fateh Ali Khan
All these are enlightened or going tru enlightment sanyasins are because of Osho*!Nothin´happens without His will!Remember? Soror*Terezinha du Petit Jésus(YashuA),for some as well she came to help!
Soror*Terezinha has been declared by most High to be the mystic daughter of Christ consciouness,Sri Ramana,consciousness…all pointing to Osho´s conciousness!
May be what you´re saying without able to pernounce it that meditation is short in the presence of so much teaching,and great teachings!´I personaly know about this because in my meditations or Osho´s gigft I´m tru His grace untill we know more short of breath awareness!
May be the Pune ashram can do the unthinkable! To call all this people that are claiming enlitenment to come back for some breath awareness,by the way this is your primaries!Breath is the most tangible of all teachings and if one is short on breath or blocked as on my case,and possible with more people,please I´m calling to Osho´s ashram not to shut doors on Osho´s children with some mambojambo* as Osho has real meditationS and well as much teachings,of all kinds!All those stories was to get human beings twenty century to close ones eyes and be able to quietly sit down and watch ones breath or ones thoughts(Tots!)without getting unconscious!
Ask any western mind to close his eyes he will tell you that you must be craisy…..!That I have some darkness chaising Us…!Whites,browns or blacks are agencies!
So don´t take any notice if you yourself can close ones ones eyes for few moments and actaualy watch this chaisings…consider it as Osho´s blessings!
Best of Luck,
LOve ,
Amrit*
My God !! Amrit Bhaskar
What are you trying to communicate?
Which side are you in?
Osho , Ashram , Jesus or Soror or Terezinha ( ? )???
Who is shutting the doors to osho’s children
Can you explain more clearly? Please…..
Kranti!Good to hear from you!
Who´s trying to close Osho´s doors ?Can only be Osho*!
Dear friend Kranti!
This can only be watched not explained not at this stage anymore ! We have had all the explanations possible,and if we still about how to explain …what about ones *breat and awareness?Look Kranti! Your own experience tells all !You can still ask me who´s soror*erezina du Petit Jésus!
Look if people don´t remember I´ll share this with you as I´ve we spent time together and other sannyasins friends!
You were born in amongst the west rich germany and know very little about poverty unless what you seen in india!
Soror*Terezinha is a great french female mystic 19c
came to share in my deepest momments as what can realy be love …not explanation but,love!
I call her the mystic daughter of Christ,Raman,Meher Baba,Krisnamurti,all the chilum mystic saints of India untill we come to Osho*Osho is in the long line of enlightened masters only through evolution ,Darling!
So asking sannyasins to put end through awareness to this fighting *who ´s great small medium and large
fantasies of mind and let´s watch ones mind and watch ones breath so we can discover who´s daughter Soror*Terezinha du Petit,Je´sus,Christnamurti,Sai Baba,Meher Baba,All babas and OSho´s daughter!That´s what She is! She is that immitation that is I still missing me whenever sannyasins are discussing who´s greater and smaller and my actuality,and yours friend comes up….! Actuality-is where my breath is short whenever I need to be aware and not allowing the anger to get better of me…I lost it…O.Kay It´s human it´s like parhaps what Micheal sometimes may have felt…. I would like to have been looking somebody else?!*who Knows!
Anyway have a great laughter as you´ve earned it friend! As I was wondering who´s Kranti?
Let´s please keep intouch as I ve lost most of our friends…not kowing!
Here is my email:amritbhascar@hotmail.com
Amrit
Thanks for the detailed mail.
We are not actually into ‘ who´s greater and smaller ‘
We try to take whatever is happening in the name of spirituality with a pinch of salt.. Even Osho has been critized here on this forum.
Until we awaken we all get into these kind of debates and arguements and love / hate relationships.. It is part of growth
Even in your post i sense some bias towards some Soror*Terezinha .. I honestly was not aware of anyone like that..
Unfortunately most of us here on this forum dont go by beliefs..We dont get into stuff like ‘ lineage ‘ and ‘chain’ etc as we feel those things will never help your growth..It will only lead people to get into beliefs which they can never covert into actual experience
I come from India and i have seen poverty , But i dont thing that has anything to do with spirtuality..
And Kranti is just another crazy guy in search of something which he doesnt even know ..
Thanks for sharing
Osho used to say of all the bullshits religious bullshits are the most dangerous
….Osho used to say of all the bullshits religious bullshits are the most dangerous because you can never verify what is true and what is untrue and there is no upper limit
Know I know it , This Amrit bhaskar is MJ re-incarnation. . what is he talking about?
It is like listening to maitreya ishwara but on drugs…
…may be we ´re intoxicated and is not spiritual bulshit !
May be we are stoned by all this mental stuf and we´re not aware;neither is quoting Osho,nor this is Ishwara on drugs!
Now that you´re asking I don´t seem to remeber you(Anthony Thompson!) when Osho was in the body!
I also get pist off with Ishwara(swBhaskar!),that´s what used to be his name,but just as you´re O.kay inspite of myself he is another O.k. case inspite of how freaks out the persona I come up with,(Osho!)
Up to point friends;the talking head keeps talking inside and ther´s no way of stoping them,ever more sophisticated….just like Iswara!
Perhaps we´re not so different so we haven´t realised the noise within and as he says ,because Osho says It!
Kranti not because Osho has said darling but because I´ve realised this the case within me!
Here is where the bucks end!
You´re a spaniard with funny sense of humour ….only perhaps I speak better english and my sense of humour is funnier…please,luf!
I love drugs,and so is my sharoot but i take it out occasionaly!
Just for a luf!
Maytrea is sick child just as the rest of Us,and he is the mmicheal Jackson escpaingor trying to slip out of the unconscious but the trouble weér in nature and we cannot beat nature on her own game! It´s like trying to lift oneskf up by puling ones own legs!
To bulsit nature for for one own gain whatever it´s it´s the gain wether you´ll have one mind as one would like to be..M J.in depts of unconscious whtever is dark ,is unconsciou and often times evil….the uncons-
cious,dark…gropping the dark!You hear within, you without Osho*would groppping the dark!
About soror*Terezinha du Petit Osho!*She is an experience that Osho brought sannyasins and a group of sickers when they came to a cranch,dosen´t matter,*How to maximise,this potential…?And she apperared ,whith discoveries how Visitor had apperaed to Her and may be on the eyes of Her ashram she was looking for a special position or place! It´s human,First row,2nd and 3trd!
But she came to say tha if I were looking for aposition it would O.K.because dark our chasing might be,cracks of all kinds,Blacks specialy don´t allow them inn,or Indians they´ll and will make pictures they worship!
And so on and so forth….!Who is she?
Now this an enquiry that unconsciously ,just as who is Inn,….or *who am I?
This are not ones curiositty but comes deep from within,and we cannot put these questions at 5rest so easly? WHo Is She?Who Am I?
*Who is INN…..talking ,Chit-chating…Chater -ry,dialoge!
If we are looking for peace of mind and we were Maytreya trying to quiet down the old mind,comming back to the point He is also my breathen even tough he has dark chase follwing him ,but won´t admit to it!He still my Brother and that what soror*Terezinha du Petit Jésus came to let me know,as a Daughter,as a sister,as alover as a Friend!
*WHere From???
…As Lord is Caring Us in His Devine Head just as he came to show Us love one another just as I have Loved You!!!!!!
We through Your grace have come to realise collectivelly that we are not well and short on the love bit…LordThe Vacumm is still going now whatever power we use to beat it! !!!To feel this gaps we have turned just as You wanted our hands to most of *hallucigenics and laughing gaz and all sundries!
Our positionis psychologically in deep dispair…often you hear commit suicide!Can only be the old voices that have followed Us since Cape Green,voices of unconscious,voices that Sheilla was prepaired to Shoot toxic stuf and put someone on a wheel chair that might have been bothering her by trying to slip her control…!?
We are discovering in ways how we´re tyed,and the
Knots in a silk rope or perhaps a German rope …dope,and not so easy to undue!After all German rope and dope is the most difficult to escape as an escapist with ready escape money,still diffficult..going back to what we were asking;LoRde to ask you for your help as the voices again have grown no matter how much we denY!
Your Love is what we are short and please send whomever can help ease this psychological Pain!
ABC for short and friendly and soror*
For sharing YOuR LOVE
ABC Farms!*Evry spring time ther comes a CUCKOO BIrd Talking in gardens of Ashram!
Lord!You are mad,Lord!
And you are not being satle…but an arrow straight to the HEART!
Amrit,
Before you write another comment, please share your identity. Tell something about yourself, introduce yourself, if you are here, you must be at the facebook too or other social networking sites.
Greetings to all!
Dearest Shantam Prem(Love!´)
I cannot immagine why I´m interested to know you better when I myself (You caught Me!)am getting difficulties in knowing my closest self within and without!
I can only be an old fool,that Osho´s left sannyasins with for their sinns, or drifted wood on a Goa beach! may be Arambol!(lots of drugs am meditation Happened there!)
Darling I haven´t written any books or done any thing extraordinary so socialy it would be difficult to have heard of me unless Osho started for me(osho´s!)
a group or something! Anyway as Kranti pointed out is only Osho´s old fools discussing points Great ,small and minds stuf!
I occasionaly may sound as if I new somethin´else but is just voices that I´ve running within that I cannot (realised!)put and end and they are declaring that they´re not just anotrher noise they´re happen to be Osho`s Sport!Can you imagine that *watching the mind,the only thing that that Osho ever spoken(!) in His silence,that now One has this voices that cannot be put an end to and this voices are calling themselves Osho´s Sport!
Look I myself has this cuckoo gift that comes every so often
to ashram garden,or Sports CluB´s garden´s! I am still enquiring as ,To whom I am?
To describe myself in honnestly as I´ve discovered lately so many faces that ,if I were just as I uesed think of myself this or that ….!Remain incquisitive about my personna,and we will thru His grace discover whom the Two of Us are!How about it?
Luf,
amrit*
Amrit Bhaskar, for sure you have the capacity to attract attention—.
I simply change the subject to make for something new…
When I was in Pune last time, I did kind of a zazen retreat, sitting a couple of days in the glazed walkway of oshos prior garden. Just right after the end of the retreat, when everybody felt silent, open and fragile, the “group leader” privately interviewed me, offering to sell “osho marbel” to me. I could not believe it. This was the time when Dheeraj was dominating the place with his “tibetan pulsing” trip. We felt so disgusted by the scene that a couple of days later we left and never returned.
Even up to day, the scene feels weird, immature and awkward to me. I would not even dare to reccommend to anybody of appreciable intelligence to go visit the resort or take a look at sannyas sites. While the planet is about to change rapidly, most of the news coming from the world of Osho are either stale or abhorrent, concerned about it’s own cult like inner structures and problems or propagating strange guru games.
Osho assaulted traditional religions. And deservedly so. But as it is, what is happening around Osho is even more crazy then what is happening in the traditional religions. A cultist climate and very strange psychological setups. Critical thinking seems almost impossible. Any use of mind strangely seems to come along with guilt feelings or is rejected with absurd esoteric argument. Impressions for a newcomer who is taking a look at sannyas sites are very strange.
We live in an exciting era with lots of change and new insight everyday. With great dangers and great potential for destruction. But what are sannyasins to contribute? If there is anything true about what Osho said about his own disciples, sannyasins should be a elite. Osho was talking a lot about meditation and science. But my experience is that sannyasins mostly are into astrology and various esoterics but not at all into science or meditation.
We will never know what might have happend when Osho would have lived 20 or 30 years longer. We do not know, what he would have done, what he would have dropped or picked up or changed. But actually this is irrelevant. Osho is dead. It does not matter if Osho told this or that, that he set up an inner circle or something else. If it does not work, it does not work. Change is bound to happen. If you try to prevent it, it finds it’s own ways. What’s happening is completely intransparent and nebulous. And self destructive. Obviously there is not even a way to communicate normaly or friendly between the various divisions of sannyasins. It is obvious that you cannot work this way in times of the internet without inflicting great damage to yourself. This way all the stange divisions and fights are a compulsory consequence.
To me the best things left by Osho are humor, some of the meditations he advised for the modern man as well as his concept of Zorba the Buddha. I am not at all interested in satsang teachers, copyright fights, osho impersonators and all the business around enlightenment. I am more attracted by scientific findings than by esoterics. Science and meditation are connatural in many ways. Meditation and science are equivalent to what Osho described as Zorba the Buddha. A meeting of the subjective and the objective world. Seekers and researchers, but not weirdos and pseudo spiritual egomanics. Meditators, not impersonators. If the world of Osho is not changing and opening up to reality, it just will be left behind.
During the last two decades scientific understanding has grown exponentially due to information technologies. Science gradually makes it clear to us, that our brain is not “made” to understand or visualize the underlying facts of reality (like light having quantum and wave characteristics, both at the same time). Reality is so different from what our brain is used to, that it can only be described in mathematical terms. These mathematical results show that the physical reality has not much to do with what we usually perceive as reality. It is a great step into the unknown. But this has not much to do with esoterics or religious obsessions.
For example, take a look for what is happening in CERN (Conseil Européen pour la Recherche Nucléaire). As you may know, CERN is the world’s largest particle physics laboratory. It is the workplace of approximately 3000 full-time employees, as well as some 8000 scientists and engineers, representing 580 universities and research facilities and 80 nationalities. Nation, religion, sex, colour of skin, all of that does not play any role there. It is a vast international undertaking to gain understanding about core questions of existance.
The activities at CERN are centered around the Large Hadron Collider (LHC). The LHC represents a large-scale, worldwide scientific cooperation project. The LHC tunnel is located 100 metres underground, in the region of Geneva (Switzerland). It uses a circular tunnel of 27 km circumference. The experiment is about nuclear physics as well as about astronomical questions, but finally it is about live, existence and consciousness.
The core question in physics these days is, why in the beging when protons and neutrons were about to neutralize each other in “Nothingness”, a shift happend in favour of protons thus causing the big bang (mass, matter and finally live). Another related subject is the search for a particle that explains the so called dark matter (Higgs Boson).
To gain factual understanding, particles are accelerated to near the speed of light and clashed. The fallout of the impact produces particles which allows insight about the characteristics of matter in the very first split seconds after the big bang. The accelerator also generates vast quantities of data, which CERN streams to laboratories around the world. The masses of data gained are so huge, that they created a worldwide computer grid infrastructure, to proces and analyse the data. It is able to transfer data about 10.000 times faster than the internet(!). The data are produced by a detector (ATLAS) which has the size of a cathedral! I am not able go into details here, but you may read for e.g. “Prestigious Discoveries at CERN” by Cashmore, Roger, Maiani, Luciano, Revol, Jean-Pierre or “On Physics and Philosophy” by d’Espagnat, Bernard.
Another subject which I recently find important is epigenetics. Epigenetics shows that there is a way of evolutionary “learning” which is passed genetically, but not directly via the DNA. The information is passed in a quicker way by switching on and of certain genes, thus passing information on a meta level, faster than via DNA. This is about to explain some of the questions which Darwins theory of evolution could not answer. It also is able to explain the speed of evolution. Side effect of genetics and bio science is, that they are silent offences of the tradidional religions. Some easy to read books psychologically and philosophically related to the subject are “The God Part of the Brain” by Matthew Alpers and “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins.
Of all the philosophies and religions I know, buddhism is closest to my own findings and to the findings of modern physics. I have met many buddhists and it often was inspiring for me to share and exchange on these kind of subjects as well as to enjoy arts or to practice zazen. Buddhims has changed a lot since it arrived in the west. It attracts many people in the west. It has no problem with scientific findings and it is very flexible in adopting intelligently to new cultural environments. It grows in a soft but steady way. Yet Buddhism, being about 2500 years of age, has it’s own shortcomings (another subject of lenghth). Osho started something new which was able to transcend all the traditions. But what’s happening today is not at all inspiring to me. It is a pitty. It is just ridiculous and not at able to attract intelligent people. There was a great potential in the beginning. But the outcome is odd. The strange phenonema around Osho may be interesting as a subject of psychological or religious studies, but the interesting things happen elsewhere.
Andreas Roth
For example, take a look for what is happening in CERN (Conseil Européen pour la Recherche Nucléaire). 3000 full-time employees, as well as some 8000 scientists and engineers.. so on and so forth.
i am utterly impressed by the scope of their experiment. i hope this time there will not be any technical delay and we will see live, the effect of bing bang…
Just i want to know from you one thing, all these scientific minds, drawing good saleries from public money, but that is not a question, i want to know your guess how many of them will prefer not to have the last prayer done by their priest.
They may not be regular church goers; can they still afford to die without any lawyer ,sorry priests by their side.
And please, look at their index finger, how many of them are wearing the marriage ring and whether the marriage was performed in the Church or it was a civil union.
The fact i want to point out is that one cannot mix peaches with Apple.
If Physics is a part of the science, Computering is a part of the science, similarly modren astrolgy is also a study of human behaviour, why we react in a certain way.
If you think Astrology is reading sun signs in a daily newspaper, it will be as simplifying as to say Internet is a tool for pornos!
As after a long time i read your post, atleast a fact became clear that you were visiting Pune till 92-93.
That was the period of selling Osho Marbels and healing through fingering jaws and butt holes!
From this i remember that day of 20th January 1990, when just hours later people were trying to fetch Osho ashes in their little boxes. one man i saw, filling his cigrate packet….
Search for quick fix solutions is very much part of our genetic heritage.
You say very rightly -
“Osho started something new which was able to transcend all the traditions. But what’s happening today is not at all inspiring to me. It is a pitty. It is just ridiculous and not at able to attract intelligent people. There was a great potential in the beginning. But the outcome is odd….”
This oddness is the study i am interested in.
Why for heavens sake, this ambitious project(It was not supported by the public funds) could not sustain itself after the founder’s death and is there a possibility to revive, this fast dying institution of inner human transformation.
Dear Shantam,
concerning your first question, scientists are human beings as anyone else and my experience is, you will find all kinds of personalities within the group of scientists, as anywhere. But that is not my concern. I do not believe in a perfect man and I do not search for a perfect man. Yet I easily find common grounds with scientists, because scientific methods and the implications thereoff are based on a universal approach. Scientific results may be versatile, complex, contradicting or even confusing, but the method of research is simple and again and again prooved by unification that it is able to lead to deeper understanding. The same is true about meditation. Both the methods are deeply related on many levels. The difference is, that science is concerned about the objective world while meditation is concerned about the subjective world. But no matter from which side you approach, finally the findings are astonishing similar. In fact they are two sides of one coin. They belong together and enrich each other. Meditators should be researcher and researchers should be meditators. But as you cannot dictate any of these qualities, they have to grow through live experience. Yet from my experience scientist often have no big problem to understand what meditation is about, as the mind is their tool and sometimes even their subject. Also they are used to the discipline which is needed to turn in.
Due to astrology, I remember from one of your comments that you are into astrology. Please do not feel offended. I think a indepth discussion will not make any sense here. Astrology to me at it’s best is kind of a typology. But I do not believe in typologies, as everybody is unique. Secondly astrology may reflect the psychological understanding of the person who practices it, but this has nothing to do with the physical reality. Verifiably there is no interdependency between stars, planets and their constellations to humans the way astrology propagtes it. You may as well read pebbels, bones or coffee grounds. Thirdly if you meditate you don’t need astrology, tarot, crystals or any other tools of that kind. Certainly everbody is free to play with it but I am simply not interested in all of this.
On your study of oddness. That’s my question too and the reason why I am writing here. As you may read from my comments, I am not very optimistic about the Osho-”Project”. And my understanding is, that many of the problems actually are rooted in “founder”. Yet the whole subject of the “project” as such still is on the agenda. More than ever…
Just the other day i have read, ” Last days of UG.” Please, read this book about Osho contemporary. May be it will put some light on the working methods of Osho and the man who for 40 years spoke against the gurus and died like a guru of a dozen.
And my understanding is, that many of the problems actually are rooted in “founder”.
I wonder why we have the inhuman expectations from this man called Osho. would you be satisfied to be born during Buddha’s time and to see his utterly human side. Buddha; without the myths and stories and this frozen image of his statue will be as human as Osho. I am sure he also went in the ego traps of his disciples.
There must be many flaws in the man called Gautaum Buddha too. Unfortunately we don’t have the photo images of a Bihari Nepali man who stayed amogst the people for 42 years.
Ananda and Dr. Amrito, i don’t see any difference other than the fact, one we see in reality another is covered with poetic expressions.
I wish to know just one public figure of our time in the world of spirituality whose contribution and also the fouls made in the game have better track record than Osho.
Just one name of last 110 years, who just did not write pop psycho spirituality books but worked also with people.
It is like the last 10 minutes of that famous football match, where Zidane lost his temper, but will it be fair to doubt his whole legacy as a footballer. And he is not the only one, there are around 100 in the same league all the time.
I want to know just one name of our time in the world of spirituality, whose contribution is great and dust on the feet is less.
And i am not here to prove that my master is the best because i am the best.
Such a emotional slave i think most of us are not.
Jesus, sweet Jesus your face i see in my master. You died for us, he died for us kind of emotionally charged followers are not in the school of Osho.
I believe that the way Osho torn apart the myths of another famous names, He should get the same scrutiny. Rules of the games are same for eveyone.
Others will get red card and our players just Yellow, only children till the age of five or six play like this.
Just now when i look back, one point i can say sure for Osho that the adoration of western sannyasins created too much euphoria around Him, a kind of feel good gas..
The surrender of the white man, the creme of the west sitting at His feet, naturally a man from central India will feel like conquering the world, finally the wheels of Dharma have taken a right turn… Wow, bravo..
in these moments who will care about the specific instructions to the disciples.
But as it is said in the old proverb,” Keep dogs tail in the straight tube for 12 years, still it will be crooked when you will remove the tube.” This contingency should have addressed, because the mind which was surrendered came with vengeance.
Ex Christians are doing the plastic surgery on a man whose roots are very much Indians and branches expanded to the far away west.The result is clear like Michal Jackson’s face.
Ps- I made promise to one of Osho’s Indian sannyasin in Switzerland i have met the other day that i will share his dream here at sannyasnews.com
He reads all the posts thourougly.
Namito made a comment to his swiss wife that Osho came in my dream and was saying,” Tell all my western sannyasins that 95% of you will have only one birth more. The key of your salvation is in my hands. You have to do only on thing. Get your next and the last birth in India.”
When he told me, i was laughing by claping my hands. It was a joke of the day.
Without showing the cultural senstivity and the harware behind the software, we can never do justice to persons or the causes.
Sorry Andreas, the comment above is not to be taken as PS.
It is independent not connected at all with our sharing.
so much thought provoking words Andreas has written, that i must go for a walk after these last words for today.
As you may read from my comments, I am not very optimistic about the Osho-”Project”.
I know this and also somewhere you have mentioned the remedy too. Three to four points you have mentioned during the last weeks. those points are not exotic but full of common sense and can sure give a new lease of life to the dying “Project”.
Without a little bit of optimism you would not have spend hours on writing. This platform is not as big as CNN, but i am sure, many wait for yours kind of writting. Authenticity oozes from your words.
Formost is a certain kind of democratic set up. The whole organisation in the hands of prodigal sons is catastrophic. It kills the motivation to work together as a team and without the team effort(Sangha) forget about a vast breakthrough in the inner realms as it is happening in the world of technology.
Those who think Osho never spoke about democracy are the pig asses. Freedom of thoughts, speech and expressions are the key words in His human right charter.
Dear Shantam,
I know little about UG Krishnamurti, but I read one of his books in the 80th. I agree with some things he said, with other things I don’t. I have no idea how he died, but some of the things he said are in accord with my understanding. For example he said, that people are in search of gurus in order to find solutions for their everyday real problems, and/or for solutions to a fabricated problem, namely, the search for spirituality and enlightenment. He insisted that this search is caused by the cultural environment, which demands conformity of individuals as it simultaneously places within them the desire to be special – the achievement of enlightenment thus viewed as a crowning expression of an individual’s “specialness” and uniqueness. Consequently, the desire for enlightenment is exploited by gurus, spiritual teachers, who pretend to offer various ways to reach that goal.
Some of your other statements seem to be arising from an effort to explain the story of your live. I think trying to do that is absolutely a good thing, necessary and healing. But you have to be very honest to see down to the bottom of the sea.
You write “Just now when i look back, one point i can say sure for Osho that the adoration of western sannyasins created too much euphoria around Him, a kind of feel good gas…”. I agree, but it was not only the westerners, also the easterners, even more so, they are used and conditioned to the devotional game. Somehow devotion is comfortable, as you don’t have to move your ass and you are not responsible either. But Osho also wanted things to be done! It is NOT a east / west, a India versa others or a racist kind of thing. Not at all. Osho simply used everybody for his purposes, east as west, north and south. Indians seem to attribute the situation in Pune to a conflict between westerners and easterners. But let me tell you, this is not the real reason! This is just a rationalization, for not to see the reality of Oshos game. Osho needed big numbers for his game and for his own feel good. If somebody seemed to be more effective he used the more effective one. He never cared about the ones left behind. When Laxmi did not do the job to find a new place for the commune, he exchanged her by Sheela (bad choice). But this did not have to do with nation or colour of skin, but with his overall need.
And the feel good gas was real laughing gas, on top of all the adoration! He just could not get enough! He always needed more and more and more of everything, disciples, love, attention, image, cars, watches. And this MAKES a difference to Buddha!
As you, most sannyasins see Osho as THE Buddha of our time. But who told you this? All the great comparison with others was made up by Osho, not by others. Why did he do that that? Please ask yourself. To me there are many out there who perform much better. Finally it’s the result which counts, not showing-off and pseudo big numbers.
Osho was a show master. Much of what he told to his naiv disciples was fabricated. Like all this talk about his own enlightenment or all the great talk about tantra and his swaggering about his sex live. Most probably his sex live was very poor. But who cares anyway?
Why are you defending your unique master so much, even promising to “share his dream”? Because it gives you the kind of “specialness” and meaning UG is talking about. Take all that away, what is your reality? You just were a number in HIS game. Osho never cared. He used people. That’s also why there is no sangha around Osho, just a club controlled by managers and a lot of cuckoos thinking themselfs special.
When one wants to play in the big league, people are used as stairs, Obama enrolled 7 million people in his list who were donating their time and money, You think it is possible to care about them the way he does for his immediate family including dog.
Same can be said about the pop or sport stars.
J Or UG had kept themselves with very few numbers of people, they knew them by their names, these people were devoted to these non guru gurus with their heart and wallet.
On this earth a certain kind of co dependency is a fact like gravitation. Question is whether one gets enough for the emotional or financial investment.
You as a husband and business man must be aware about the price and the product compatibility.
During the last months, i was wondering about those .75 million people who purchased tickets for MJ concert. It must be worth of their time and money, i may not even pay one cent for the whole thing.
Many feel the same for Osho it is beautiful.
I am getting worth of my emotional investment, so why i divorce the cause. It may be a lost game but worth fighting for.
You know the problem comes when the ways become to crude, when people really feel used.
If i use astro “typology”, this is the shadow side of the Sagittarius. These utterly generous people discard people when the purpose is solved, till than they will treat them as royalty.
But this is the game of life. Those who feel used has all the rights to divorce their master, job or the partner. what is the problem.
And another fact, i am not aware about, the laughing gas and another pain soothing medicines, was Osho aware what he was taking or the doctors were giving him as a treatment and also as a control mechanism.
As you, most sannyasins see Osho as THE Buddha of our time. But who told you this? All the great comparison with others was made up by Osho, not by others.
Do you think people came to know about Buddha or Jesus through the research story in the TIME magazine. Thanks God, at least Masters are not produced in the university certified courses. All of them are self appointed. They all have used the terminology of their time, all have created the nitch for their inner product, all have criticised the compete tors and i don’t see any harm in this.
It is a draw back that their product can not be tested by öko test. So people have to try.
Only thing what nerves me is when people buy things in ALDI but say it is from Migros or the sellers buy them in India and sell them as made in Germany.
Cheating is a shitty behaviour.
East west thing i was not saying as a racial thing it was just an example for a certain point. I am not just sharing bread with the west but blood too and i am utterly thankful for this, so much so that it makes me smile to think that a man was raised as a Sikh turns sannyasin than agnostic and now is a father of Catholic and protestant child. When you know to play than who cares where the sport ground is, and more over i believe to look at the things in an impartial way is the first step of any search or enquiry.
The state of the affairs in the ashram has tunrned off most of the sannyasins irrespective of their countries.
Many i knew personally in Germany who were going to Pune their whole youth but the moment managers imposed their will , they simply st oped going their. Naturally a social vacuum is there, these Misfits were fitting quite well with other misfits, now that luxury is not there. This is somehow in just.
Yes. east west thing i was saying in the context that historically western leaders have this inbuilt structure to be superior. Whitman’s burden has given us much from medicines to Ipods, but by imposing their will in the matters of heart, spirituality and devotion they have gone beyond their mandate. It is like a dentist trying to be fraunarzt!. They are holes apart!
PS-Beloved Andreas,
To me there are many out there who perform much better. Finally it’s the result which counts, not showing-off and pseudo big numbers.
Please, let me know at least one. I wish to visit that person. you have good taste so it is easy to trust your choice.
If you tell me that particular T shirt is better than Lacoste”, i will buy tomorrow.
I will be known through my sannyasins – Osho
This is the caption statement of this website.
Does this not show a bond, a relationship, a trust between master and disciple, much much more than any other relation.
I don’t think any father can ever dare to say like this about his children.
Some how it seems to me, that this master disciple concept is so new to the western people it is not even a home grown concept. Therfore it fascinates and repulses also.
To take devotion and surrunder away from this is as dry as to take sex or cuddling away from matrimonial bond.
I feel amazed by the daring acts of those who are adamant to stand on their feet yet want to carry the baggage of disciplehood too.
Those do gooders at the ashram are making the laughing stock of themselves because they want to wipe out the brown skin of their guru; it is too embrassing, they mention Him in present tense because he has not died but behave as if he was never born.
Best will be that they spend at least last years of their life in a secluded meditation and without the exotically sounding sannyas names to fullfill the remaining work of their personal growth. for sure, Osho is not going to write our homework, with or without devotion, this he has made clear so often.
Dear Shantam,
you are right, the traffic on this site is very little, so somehow it is more like a private talk and not very efficient if you think in terms of publicity.
I have no exact numbers, but my guessing is, that there were about 100 to 200 Osho centers in Germany in the 80th. But since then it has been shrinking dramatically to a hand full of little places with very little relevance. I have helped to establish three centers/communes myself. None of them exists anymore, for material as well as for inner reasons. The scene has broken apart completely. If you ask anybody on the streets about Osho, they will just shrink their shoulders. If you show them a picture some of the elderly ones will say, ‘Oh, isn’t this the Bhagwan’. But that’s it. The world has forgotten. Only sannyasins think that Osho has impact. You might say it is not about big numbers, but about quality, but I find the remains ridiculous, selling any esoteric crap which goes. And those who still find a way for e.g. by reading Osho, they mostly are disgusted by the insane phenonema around Osho. I know it is a bit different in India as the resort is doing everything to make Osho digestable. But to me, as long as they are denying their past in the resort they have nor relevance anymore. Anybody is able to read in the internet. Like Michael Jackson will always be known for his paedophile, Osho will always be know for all the crimes which happend around him. And finally it even does not matter if he was involved directly or not, because if you have such a power over people, if you choose them for their jobs and even arranged their private lives, you ARE resonsible. If you misguide people, it will fall back to you.
You quoted Osho: “I will be known through my sannyasins”. Exactly. But it is so akward. Something like Oshodhara will not go in the west at all anymore. That is below any standard. Even the hippies have changed and grew up.
I agree with you completely about the arrogance of westerners in history. What they did to people all over the world can not be forgiven easily! But the history has nothing to do with what they do in the resort! Devotion or surrender to a dead man is not better than kissing marble. I am completely against surrender and devotion, even when the ones involved are both alive. The ego does not go away this way. On the contrary. I have profound reason for this. It has to do with basic human affiars, not with East or West etc. I am in accord with the ones in Pune here. It is not about wiping “out the brown skin” of Osho.
You asked for an example for anyone more effective than Osho. Comparison is difficult and I am not into numbers, but I know that Buddhists have grown largely in the same time. All the various branches, mostly tibetan and zen buddhist, but even the more detached ones from the theravada tradition. There are thousands of places all over Europe and some of them do great work. We live in a remote era, but even here, just 10 kms away there is a beautiful retreat place by Thich Nhat Hahn, a engaged zen buddhist. Even Zen buddhist which are a bit elitist, have founded many places and do great work on many levels and you find many intelligent people there who often are very creative professionals. The dharma has arrived since long in the west. To give you just one example, a single man like Ole Nydahl (Tibetan Buddhism) has create more than a 1000 places worldwide. Go to the following link, choose a country and select go to see a list:
http://www.diamondway-buddhism.org/default.asp?col=04&t=centers.htm
But this is all just an example, not a reccommendation. I for myself I am not interested or impressed by big numbers, but only by the factual outcome and effect.
Coming to your remark about Obama, masses, number of disciples etc, this is a complex issue: Masses are necessary to transport ideas. Crowds and masses are needed to gather political impact. To collect masses you have to exaggerate the significances of it’s mentor, founder or central figure to gain the momentum to gather groups or masses. It always is a dangerous game, as individuals have to form a crowd, and give up their freedom in order to let a leader act on their behalf. This basically is the pattern you find in any group gathering around a single individual for any reason. Be it political or religious. Certainly there a various groups and crowds. A football match or a big rock concert creates similar kind of effects for a short time like a political or a religious crowd. Political groups may last for some decades. Religious groups even have the potential to last for very long periods. I think you will agree that there is a difference between political power and what buddhists call the transmission of the lamp. It is a individual process. If you try that on a mass level, if becomes very dangerous. You need some kind of fiction, something exceptional like enlightenment or god or afterlife to start such a game. Their bindings in religious groups are extrem, as they work on the psyche and on the subconsciousness. It is a mutual game. Both the sides seemingly are gaining power this way. Therefore members of religious group rather tend to defend their leader at any cost instead of feeling or seeing their own reality. The effects thereoff are very well known. No one has power. Power always is given by followers. Now if the central figure starts to believe in the artificial word he seemingly created by his own powers and if the leader of any such movement is abusing his power consciously or unconsciously you really are in the shit. Osho exhibited all the typical features of narcissistic personality disorder, such as a grandiose sense of self-importance and uniqueness; a preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success; a need for constant attention and admiration; a set of characteristic responses to threats to self-esteem; disturbances in interpersonal relationships; a preoccupation with grooming combined with frequent resorting to prevarication or outright lying; and a lack of empathy. Osho’s Buddha status, was part of a delusional system associated with his narcissistic personality disorder. A condition of ego-inflation rather than egolessness. The whole game is nothing but a way of the ego.
As I have heard a lot of Osho, I know that he said don’t follow me, he always prepared with any argument. But in effect he used every means to create a dependency within his disciples. Even beyond his own death (for example that’s why they don’t talk in the past tense about Osho, it obviously is a bit crazy, but part of oshos super narcistic game). In effect individuals gave up their freedom for a fictition which led to a system of lies and pretentions. The fears and realities of the individual are superposed by strange believes, fraud and selfdeception. This inner systems supposedly protects the individual of it’s own natural fragility and limitations as well as of the fear of death. But it is a very bad business. Only if the hypnosis is broken, a change starts to happen. In the beginning it feels like being reduced in self-esteem, when the vision and the assumed meaning which was produced in a imaginary way is fading. But after a while, if you have come back to your own senses, freedom is back.
Dear Andreas Roth,Greetings to all!
I thru His grace (osho´s) was given this cuckoo,voices to watch and by it heal this narcistic tendencies that you brethen have discover in others ! It ´s a good begining because if you can see it in others may be when by His grace time comes you will be also able to ID it (behaviour!)and descontinue whilst an awareness is growing within and …ther´s no one that is this or that!Well done whilst I taught of you just as mysel,being resentfull for whatever reasons,I can tell thsi friend that you´re not alone as we´rebeing watched!
Shantam &Andreas.. Your discussions have been top notch.. High quality..
But we are still missing few points
As you guys have discussed so much it will be difficult to address all the points . But i will give my best..
First thing First
Andreas you say
” To me the best things left by Osho are humor, some of the meditations he advised for the modern man as well as his concept of Zorba the Buddha ‘
Thats it ..thats sumps up o’s work..thats all he wanted to do and he clearly disconnected himself from the past and leave religions in the hands of Individuals.. he kept saying organized religion is dead..It will be upto Individuals to be ‘ religious ‘
So if no Oshism comes up..Osho has suceeded..
On the one hand we say Oshism is bad and on other hand we try to evaluate him with numbers to see whether Oshoism is possible..
To me He has done his work and it is upto Individuals to become religious ( as per the Highr definition of the word to indicate about living life intelligently not by the old definition )
Like Shantam said No one is going to come and declare you enlightened..All awakenings are self declarations..By nature of awakening someone else can not do the job..Thats doesnt mean you can point finger and say an awakened man is just saying it to become famous
Yes.. Science has made significant contributions..But in all your arguement Andreas. you keep reffering to material science as the only science..What Osho did in Conciousness also is science ..Science of Inner..How can you say it is not science..Osho always said we need to embrace both form of Sciences …Outer and Inner..Sprituality is more deeper science than Pshychology..thats all. But it is very scientific in its own way
We cannot create 1000s of Osho organized centres like Buddhism and precisely thats what Osho wanted..If all these Osho centres are disappearing Osho has suceeded
To me as i see every change that is happening i am in utter awe of the phenomenan called Osho.. He gave what an Individual needs and removed the possibilities of what Collectivity can do to create a religions around him
Andreas you are always speaking from your heart..Thats why you always give examples of both the aspcets of Osho..You Accept Osho’s contributions and but at the same time you are critical of certain things which to me Osho did deliberately to remove the possibilities of another religion. Somehow you are not accepting the fact whatever Osho did was with reasons.. You are looking at lot of things that happned around Him and trying to make HIm responsible.. I think thats is expecting too much from Osho as Shantam rightly pointed out..
You say Osho was a show master.. That is direct contradiction from accepting His Wisdom and Intelligence.. he showed what He had.. He was not trying to show which He didnt have.. If what He has shown is too enourmous for modern man to handle & digest that is not Osho’s fault..
somone like Osho is always going to be ahead of His time..
Osho was a beautiful Human with great Wisdom , Sense of Hmour and Courage ..Can we dispute that..and he never claimed anything more than that.. inspite of few things / communication he used to unsettle people.
Why do we have such enourmous expectations from a human being who just pointed out the potential for highly intelligent living..All He pointed out was how to live totally and why do we need to discredit Him because of all the things that happen around HIm..
Infact if Osho is not succeeding so far it is all because of the tireless efforts of people who refuse to focus on His positive contributions and keep pointing finegr at the Ranch and Sheela..
If we put those stories which happned around Osho and focus only on His Core Message..then we dont have anything to cvomplain..We have only greatfulness for the potential in is which He indicated….
Just a small point
You say ‘ for example that’s why they don’t talk in the past tense about Osho, it obviously is a bit crazy, but part of oshos super narcistic game).’
In India any awakened human being is always reffered to as ‘ IS ‘ & not in the past tense because that person has gone beyond the dimension of time..( provided we agree such a thing exists ) It is not because of Osho’s disire to be reffered to like that..
Andreas / Shantam
Something which you may be interested..May be you have already read…
FROM SCIENCE TO GOD -The Mystery of Consciousness and the Meaning of Light
By Peter Russell
Andreas you say
” Buddhims has changed a lot since it arrived in the west. It attracts many people in the west. It has no problem with scientific findings and it is very flexible in adopting intelligently to new cultural environments ”
What changes that have happned to Buddhism and how it adopted to Science and environment? Are we saying Buddhism adopted or Buddhist organizations adopted? Please tell us as it will be a learning for us..
” Osho simply used everybody for his purposes, east as west, north and south. …… This is just a rationalization, for not to see the reality of Oshos game. Osho needed big numbers for his game and for his own feel good. If somebody seemed to be more effective he used the more effective one. He never cared about the ones left behind ”
It all depends on how we look.. You can say Osho brought the best in everyone..He gave people work that suited them and he took away resposibilities which people couldnt fulfil , he didnt hang on to people and situations from past .. etc etc..there are any number of positive ways in which you can describe what Osho did..It need not be so negative and pessimistic..
You say
” Osho’s Buddha status, was part of a delusional system associated with his narcissistic personality disorder. A condition of ego-inflation rather than egolessness. The whole game is nothing but a way of the ego ”
This is the highest possible negative description we can give to such a beautiful himan being..Incidentally people who lived very very close to Osho have all the beautiful things to say about Him and they are full og gratitude.. And people who lived far away from him can judge Osho like this..
Andreas..I am not upset.. But i honestly feel you are making a too huge judgement about someone with whom you didnt live closely. at all. If you are making a judgement about an unknown individual the damage is not that great..But you are sending this judgement about someone of the calibre of Osho who means so much to the development of conciousness , across to 1000s of people who read this forum..But how can we take such right? Will not put a hurdle in the minds of all the people who are starting their Inner journey..Dont they deserve to dance which all the people enjoyed?
I still would like to see your reply to Buddhism’s adoptability..
Buddha said ‘ be a light unto ourselves ‘ But is that what all Buddhist organizations are doing now?..
I have heard about sickening things in Buddhist organizations and monks..
May be Buddhism survived because it managed to create a religion and oprganized set ups.. And all organizations have vested interests and they will adopt beautifully to survive.. I dont see anything positive in that..
I dont think that will work with Osho as His people can not come together to create a religion as there is no Idealogy or Dharma kind of stuff..
and in a way You can see the success of Osho in the failure of his people to create an organization.. As i said i am utter awe.. of the phenomeman called Osho… he has done the work and he also undone what negative things people will create in future..So much for the Wisdom and foresight..
Kranti,
One fact i wish to point out with all its fairness is that children born during the peace time can not comprehend the pain of those who saw the bloody war, who became refugees etc.
Same way i presume to see the actions “Live” during the master’s life time has its own fun and own kind of experiencing, specially those masters who create a kind of upheaval in the status Que, the Buddhas of their time.
So many times when Andreas say something it has its own experiencing effect, he was part of the cyclone. Now the dust has settled, you are the product of that peace after the cyclone, so it is easier to conceive Osho from its essence, the man Osho is not there to play the game without any conventional rules. I will say still that there was a symmetry behind the irrationality.
For example if you take a chance to work in the resort say just for a year, i am sure it will be a bit another kind of wisdom, for sure it will not be that much sweet.
For this also i will give credit to Osho for shaking the life in the guts.
Someone snatches your emotional property without any hitch, you see him “signing your check book” right before your eyes and you are supposed to be aggressive only in Dynamic. I think these people will have a different kind of Vipassna and only a Master like Osho could dare to integrate the taboo themes with zen and all the fuck jokes.
Chances of such combination to get exploited is huge, but as it is said about every exploitation, you cannot put the wooden pot second time on the fire.
Our work is to preserve the uniqueness of the game but with the signs like ,” High voltage current; open your eyes, before you touch.”
Though I don’t have time to post these days, I am reading everyone else’s thoughts and feelings here, and trying to keep up with the various threads.
I think Andreas has some insightful views — I think many of his thoughts are in the minds of those Osho sannyasins who have dropped out to one degree or another, but don’t have his ability to express them as Andreas does. Or the time and interest, either, as they have thrown in the towel on the Osho world to a large extent. He gives his criticisms with refreshing honesty and in-depth treatment too.
Shantam
Not for a moment i am denying Andreas experiences..In my earlier post i clearly mentioned that he speaks from his heart..Thats why he is able to say the positive things abput Osho also..
I also accept the fact people who lived in the Osho’s period especially the Ranch had thier experiences and struggle..
But Amritos and Manesshas also lived with Osho Didnt they?
It is one thing to have bitter expereinces but to come out saying ‘ Osho is a EGO driven personality and because of Him only all the people suffered and he had Narcistic mentality etc is a bit taking things too far.. I dont think that has been the experience of all the sannyasyns..
If we take a closer look only people who couldnt get closer to Osho beyond a point or people who couldnt continue beyond Ranch days are the ones with all the bitter expressions.. It is so obivious that theie xpression of Osho was clouded by thier bitter experiences.. Is it fair to discredit Osho just because someone had personal disasters?
Why Anthony had to ake so much pain to put things in right perspective on Calders article.. It is for the same reason..
Osho has given so much Wisdom and sharpness..If that does not help us to see beyond personal experiences then what is the point of that sharpness. I am not going by the peaceful life i have to say something about Osho.. I am looking at the contributions of that Man to human conciousness..
Just because he is born at the age information technology and everyone can post thoughts Osho had to go through such image beating..In that sense A Buddha or A Jesus were fortunate..
Even a JK played the cards safely unlike Osho who went for the offense frm word go..
We can understand if US govt agencies and vested interestse like Sankaracharias saying these negative things about Osho but His oen sannyasins or ex sannasins who have tasted such bliss dancing and celebrating life with Osho
Is this what we are repaying to that Man who showed us tremondous potential in us to life a joyful life..?
If Osho had been that bad then everyone around him should have suffred..
Show me a single guy who lead a beautiful life because of Hitler or Stalin?
It is JUST NOT FAIR to look at Osho through the things that happed around Him.. He was Human and more fragile Human than us and how he could have controlled everything that happens around Him.. Hopw he can become resposnsible for stupidities committed by few disciples? How can we discredit Him for contributions to conciousness?
He was not saviour to anyone..If people expected Him to be savious of them then surely they would have had all the bitter experiences. ..he couldnt have come out nd save everyone from their troubles..
And the path of spirituality with a master like Osho was never going to be one of roses all the way..It will have thorns also.. You cannot look at the thorns and blame the master for that..
I feel hurt…
You have taken me for a great fool perhaps another cuckoo,and it hurts!
Please dear Osho come to help heal this psychological wound(yet very realI´m not making it up for atracting attention!) even as soror* might not be welcome at such enlightened meeting place!Please anyone will do,as Her fragrance that which is your fragrance!
PS-Try my predicment ,just if you want to know me better!
I have been treated as a common fool,and I am hurt!
Luf,&Luv,
ABCfarms*
What is this ‘ Luf ‘ Amrit?
Kranti !
How is Munique?!I used to work for “Prince Muskin”restorante remember?
Is it over there where we met?I have a fogey idea about you except you are a genuine person with an enquiry not only about my spellin´´What is laughter (luf!)and luv=what Osho has created and even when misspelled?
“Where from?
Please convey my regards Premand tell him to contact!I sent you my email!Kindly offer my sincere regards!
Please Kranti don´t take me so seriously!
Somehow there´s editing going on as to what should anyone say or not whether is it I,He,She,They,We!
Who am I*?
*Who Is Inn?
*Whereall this from?
Luv,
Amrit*
There´s a cuckoo every spring time!!
Specialy at Osho´s sport complex* everywhere!
My God Amrit..You got the wrong man…
I am very sorry to tell you i am not the man you are referring to..
I have never been to Europe..
Shantam
You say ” High voltage current; open your eyes, before you touch.”
And when you ignore the warning and put your hand and get burned ..you dont blame the current..do you?
It is not ‘ current’ s fault..
My personal opinion is …( Purely personal and i am saying this because of my love for Osho )
Osho was pure current..
People’s whose ego burned fully bowed down and said ‘ thank you master ‘ and whose ego was not fully burned stepped away and said Osho harmed them..
O:Kay I asked before and somehow immagined you as the other Kranti! Anyhow no offense meant! I`m sorry about myspelin´…Horrible!You weren´t the only one commetin´about It!
Take care!
Thanks Amrit..
People’s whose ego burned fully bowed down and said ‘ thank you master ‘ and whose ego was not fully burned stepped away and said Osho harmed them..
As a poetic expression the above statement is very beautiful. As we have heard him saying in many of the discourses dealing with the esoteric ( dictionary meaning -sacred, hidden, mystical), most of the seekers get this point of fully burnt ego during their last minutes in the body.
Few are left alve with the silance of thankfullness and very few carry the fire further with their fully burned ego.
On a public platform i have not felt a single sannyasin, whose ego burnt fully.
so we deal with half burnt egos . I hope inspite of the resentment we will continue our journey to be fully burnt egos.
Osho (as a human being or as a master or as a contemporary mystic of our time) is 24 carrot gold, 18 or 12 carrot gold or he is simply a copper covered with gold; Osho is no more on the earth and as a disciple i believe he has given His best during the last stay on the earth and will not come here again to read books on Google!
Simply question is whether we as an individual seekers or group of people or as a organisation are doing justice to his legacy, to His vision.
My observation is that any body who came in contact with this high voltage current will never be the same again. Many of us has the experience to spot a Osho or Poona freak just with the looks without any obvious sign of clothes or Mala.
But on a collective mind level, Omlate has gone tasteless because of too much lust and a false vanity.
if most of the centres have gone closed in the west, it is not because Osho is working from up in the sky but something was fishy, artificial and synthetic in the air.
Same is happening in Poona.
Those regular Poona visiter sannyasins with million dollars worth of inheritance are not leaving in their will even 10 % to the base organisation. They have all the love for Osho, but don’t trust the leadership whether on a local level or Poona level.
Shantam
Beautiful posts.. I see a certain depth ..
I came across a blog ( i posted earlier also..But no one seems to talk about it )
Please i request you to read..there is also a web page for the author.. You can pick up something which can hit you deep..
http://nomaury.blogspot.com/
http://maurylee.110mb.com/
I am at a stage where i will look for all possible but genuine help to burn the rest of the ego
Love ..Kranti
I am at a stage where i will look for all possible but genuine help to burn the rest of the ego.
Good luck Kranti..
I am at a stage, where i will not prefer even to use match sticks, will simply rub the stones to create my own fire, the way our forfathers did millenium ago..
For this snobery; i am thankful to Osho and the liniage of people before.
yet, for my back pain i am asking many people for some physiotherapist.
Greetings to all!
I was just reading in retrospect and happen to find an article where Ant.thompson is discussing sw.Rajneesh,and talks about the slow walking man* in the ashram!
I just remembered this swami with certain solidarity with; at times when he started to get onto peoples nerves, with His walk!
Indians have been the most evolved people on this planet and if you don´t believe me, you just have to take a walk to kings +”The New British Library” for people living in UK or if you´re visiting,and they still have relics of those days and they´ll tell you that ,todays most evolved socialogicaly (english,germans,frenches etc,etc!modern man)were those days still living on the trees!
Facts! Twenty thousand years ago human beings were different but the Indians had already seen much and were cooking their food not eathing it raw!They taught modern man to cook food and hence we owe them or perhaps,a metabolism that modern man have a heart beat and neurological rate that´s not on level with other primates:It´s of different kind! It´s possible to have slow thinking rate instead of jumpy one(primate!)
The monkey and present man / woman have a different neurological rattings!When through watch we can still slow down our metabolic rate through breath awareness, meditationis is possible through Osho´s Grace,because to me Osho is inclusive of all divinity!O.Kay!Osho* for some Us is inclusive,of Sri,ramana,sri Ktisnamurti,sri Meher baba,Sri Sai,Baba of Shrirdi Yashu of consciousness and all the past enlightened masters and wherever the lord takesUs!O.Kay!
Going back to IndianS(Stupid sometimes!) and the way that some times they have this kind of *throw back *when they use to rule this planet! I,personaly have seen this,that tecnologicaly they were above to many evolutions that must have been on this earth!Believe it or not!Not my problem!
“Things come and go but only gaps remains! the gap”Bettween sounds of music there are gaps of silence*
The gaps is what Osho in Enlightement taught Us to Watch!*
That Indians have been the most evolved than modern human beings is of no cosequence….Gaps of silence,Yes!
I dont have any idea of who is most evolved and all Amrit…
But i read Swami Rajneesh book Tears of Mystic Rose
Going by what he said he was badly treated by other sannyasins during Osho days.
He jsut walked slowly and i couldnt belive that other Osho sannyasins put him thru such torture & insult because he walked slowly and that too when Osho was present..
it is a complete nonsense that Slow Walker Swami Rajneesh was insulted or humiliated by the others.
Naturally when you live like an exhibitionist, people will look at you, but this much sensibility everybody had during that time to allow the others the way they are as long as they are not creating nuisance.
Rajneesh got his share of space, for years he was in the ashram, most of the people have admired his way of meditating. and one could also see in his roaming eyes navigator the direction of the beautiful Ma’s walking. But this was the meditation we all were part.
Osho’s world was spicy with all the leg pieces, it was not that traditional holy place, where only the high priests could steal the apples.
And if because of Rajneesh different walking style, few have commented in a satirical way, he has now got the premium because of this. His success story is great. All my admiration. I hope soon he will paint the sign board of his shop showing his original taste.
Shantam..You were there..Werent you ? You could have seen him so many times..
Yes, Karanti.
I have seen Swami Rajneesh there so often. It was a feeling of global village, everybody watches everybody but without saying a single hallo for years.
Wheni look back, i was in that evening meeting too, when he was taken out from the auditorium.
Not for a second i doubt his sincerety towards the search, but this i don’t doubt about anybody.
And when you are writting a book, a bit of liberty every writer deserves to put salt, chilly and pepper to reconstruct the events.
Ah!.. Here i have first hand info..Such a relief..
Shantam..Why was he removed from the auditorium? Was it for slow walking?
During the last ten or twelve days of Osho’s coming to the auditorium in January 1990, He was feeling that few people are trying to create a black magic kind of situaion in the packed gathering. As most of the people used to sit with the closed eyes, it is possible that Osho was observing and if some one was sitting a bit dramatically was pulled out by the guards at His gesture.
These people were not blamed or condemned or banned, it was just a way to find out the leak in the energy.
Finally, Osho stoped coming and send the message, which is the zist of His teachings, something like,” it is possible for me to conuter attack those people who are attacking me, . But i won’t harm them as my reverence for life is absolute.”
Intensity was extremely high during those. He even mentioned that silence we are creating in these meetings is so deep, one can touch it.
World never stops, we are just waves in the ocean. The whole traffic was going as usual, trucks with their horns, scooters and cars, noise and pollution in the air just like always and inbetween of this all Osho’s body was carried through the main road towards burning ghat…
PS- For sure in a nice analytical discussion one can say nobody was there to harm Osho and His work. He was hallucinating..Extreme doses of prescription medicines were showing their effect.
Same way, Swami Rajneesh can say that on that particular day when Osho singled him out, it was a day of energy transmission!
This sums up life Shantam
” The whole traffic was going as usual, trucks with their horns, scooters and cars, noise and pollution in the air just like always and inbetween of this all Osho’s body was carried through the main road towards burning ghat ”
I will never forget this post of yours..
This hit medeeply..I am in tears.. I want to take a little break from posting..
Thanks Kranti, If my words have hit you deeply.. I am utterly happy and humbled.
In my feelings, i know in this way Osho wants us to burn candle from the candle..than there are no old sannyasins or new sannyasins…For eternity message was conveyed heart to heart, person to person generation after generation through suc kind of words.
This kind of Buddha field Osho has implaned on the hard chest of humanity, where people go on sharing his energy after His departure.
Monsoon has not touched the human heart for a long time. It is a draught situation there, Osho has tried to plough this hard land with our tears of laughter and pain.
These teary eyes need to be brought back at 17, Koregaon Park Pune. We, His people will go on trying if not this life than next. there is no other alternative too.
Other religious movements are decades behind in the product delevery area.
“Other religious movements are decades behind in the product delevery area.”
You hit the nail on the head..
Precisely because i am so much in favour of Osho..There is just no other effective alternatve..althought i do have respect for few neo advaitha teachers who are on the rise..
Who is this idiot? Maitreya?! ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
boy does osho have a sense of humour.
shantam and kranti
please control your inflated self importance
osho taught nothing new
How on earth do you know there are no other alternatives?
Have you checked out all places on the earth?
There are many gurus doing incredible work.
I think you like the idea of changing people? very dangerous very dangerous
james.. You are always in such a hurry to make judgements and conclusions. I said there are no other effective alternative to someone like osho with regard to the kind of work osho has done. I also said i have respect for few new masters who are on the rise. When you joined ths forum i said ths is a forum where main discussions revolve around osho. Ths is not a forum whr we take seriously some papaji or mamaji. You suddenly jump into a forum created by a osho disciple and partipated by osho disiples and tryng make a point against osho. You are ego inflated or us? And go back and check the languge of first two posts and the languge now. Before you were testing the waters and languge was hypocritic. Now you see people with diverse views and even critical views about osho also and developed backbone . Point me one forum dedicated for a master or religion where that master himself is so much critically reviwed with such a freedom? And because you asked i am throwng a challenge. Show me one master who had the back bone of osho and who had vastness and power and charisma and wisdom and sheer range of reach? I wil drop my sannyas name. No one cant come clsose to osho. That doesnt mean i dont respect other teachers. Everyday i listend to adyashanthi , mooji and eckhart with tremondous respect. I have undrstood so much from them. But Osho is Osho. No comparision.
dear kranti thank you for your words and passion I got a bit lost about your meaning in the midsection but I liked the passion. I may praise or criticise osho according to whom I am talking to. If someone is clinging to an image which helps inflate their ego I may critisice, if someone needs help I may say he is the man of greatest integrity I’ve ever come across it depends.
I thought we were here to find the truth? That’s what a sannyasin is. It is not a group held together by dogma or how you should behave towards the master. I can call osho a fucking cunt if its the truth, no?
Is osho’s name more important than the truth?
What is the measure of a master?
For me to measure a master shows you don’t know what a master is.
A master is a personal connection of love how can you compare that with anything?
You talk about power and charisma these are the ways of the ego.
Tilopa was one of the greatest masters to have walked the earth – he had one disciple!!!!
Osho was a complete failure on many levels but especially rajneeshpuram – it was a total failure. Osho just before it imploded said there was no jealousy or problems on the ranch that none of his sannyasins had these qualities. He was totally wrong. Utterly wrong. Osho’s closest followers tried to murder people so in a way it does make him incomparable because most masters disciples simply attained enlightenment. In tibet for example one thousand of je tsongkapas disciples attained enlightenment, are there one thousand enlightened followers of osho?
Buddha has just a few more disciples than osho and so does rumi and jesus and but what have numbers to do with anything? A few of buddhas disciples attained satoris just hearing his name.
surely you don’t think osho’s discourses are more beautiful and loving than rumi? Surely not as compassionate as jesus’s sayings so revoultionary the planet still can’t cope with him? surely not more deep than gautama buddha or more compassionate than shantideva? or more off the wall than ikkyu? or in touch with nature than sitting bull? or as microcosmic as atisha who revoultionised a whole country and turned one fifth of its population into meditators and mystics? or as poetic as milarepa? or as straight forward as takamatsu?
James
As i said you are really something!
You say ” If someone is clinging to an image which helps inflate their ego I may critisice, if someone needs help I may say he is the man of greatest integrity I’ve ever come across it depends.”
So you are talking according to the man infront of you ( i mean ‘ post ‘ infront of you since we are in a forum and not face to face )..
So you judge me accordingly and speak..
So if you feel i am clinging to Osho then you will say Osho is…..
OK.. Have your trip.. You have every right to have a trip..
James
And for all the talk of LIVING MASTERS with which you started off in this forum i never hear you mention one living master.. may be you think Thilops and ikkyus are still living in some mountains.. Man.. atleast i was in coma for 20 years and not accepting Osho is not in the body.. But seems you have been in coma for 2500 years.. all those guys you mentioned are well and truly dead…Dead for 1000s of years.. where is your concept of living masters coming from?
Sometime i feel you are not the same James who posted first few messages..There may be an identity issue here..Tell us openly
Oshobob ..Can you say something?
James
You say ” surely you don’t think osho’s discourses are more beautiful and loving than rumi? Surely not as compassionate as jesus’s sayings so revoultionary the planet still can’t cope with him? surely not more deep than gautama buddha or more compassionate than shantideva? or more off the wall than ikkyu? or in touch with nature than sitting bull? or as microcosmic as atisha who revoultionised a whole country and turned one fifth of its population into meditators and mystics? or as poetic as milarepa? or as straight forward as takamatsu? ”
What an explicit display of Knowledge ( Of what you know and what others dont know ).. Man I did hit your ego at the right sopt.. Your ego is weeping
” ” If someone is clinging to an image which helps inflate their ego I may critisice, if someone needs help I may say he is the man of greatest integrity I’ve ever come across it depends.”
Ah! What a display of ego..Even Osho was not this authoritative..
Dear Kranti, this is fun isn’t it! I hope your laughing…i think you are?:)
But goddam like amrito you just throw the stuff back in a mind loop. No its your ego, no its your ego no its your ego.
But you didn’t answer the question.
Dead is dead. Time doesn’t really seem to matter when were discussing dead masters, I was deliberately refering to dead masters because osho is one of them.
OR do you think time matters in the area of death?
“all those guys you mentioned are well and truly dead…” is osho not well and truly dead?
Would you prefer it if I didn’t show I have knowledge?
You are right I am not the james who posted earlier, it seems you do have some wisdom after all:)
If you hit my ego I would love it, really please tell me where I’m going wrong.
For me, my connection with the master is personal and private and is heart to heart.
I find people want to know so they can pigeon hole you. Maybe osho is my master maybe not more importantly is truth. Truth on its own without names or groups to back it up.
” For me, my connection with the master is personal and private and is heart to heart.’
Thats what me and Amrito said.. The focus is heart to heart connection..energy to energy .. need not be body to body..
What is this mind loop James..You kind of discovered something ..Will it be hurdle to enlightenment?
Anthony: Mind Loop seems to be your area..
James..You seems to have picked up lot of assumptions about the people in this forum..
That we are behind dead guru , that we dont understand or care about other living masters etc etc..
All your posts seem to be borne out of this assumptions..
And you seems to think you have an ability to judge people by seeing few posts and respond accordingly..based on what the other person needs ..whether that person needs Compassion or Hit etc etc
Are you enlightened..?
Dear Kranti, a mind loop is when you see someone condeming someone else, imposing themselves on someones freedom. You speak out against it and tell them to stop condeming. They then condem you for being condeming.
Gurdgieff when critisiced would not immediately respond but would think about it for a day to see if what that person said was true, if it was he would change and thank them if not he would speak back. This takes tremendous courage and guts but it is a very good method.
dear kranti I’ve never said what you are doing is wrong I may have said that you think it is right.
I am not worried if you say i am wrong james.. I can be wrong.. I would like to be wrong ..It relaxes me that i am ordinary nothing special..It gives me more space to live..
But that post of yours where you talked about your capability to respond based on what the other guys needs is what i understand as ‘ imposing themselves on someones freedom ‘ .. When we reply to you to express an opinion and you keep posting with an intention of something like ” If someone is clinging to an image which helps inflate their ego I may critisice, if someone needs help I may say he is the man of greatest integrity I’ve ever come across it depends.”
It makes us feel you are putting yourself in a high pedestal..
All we were doing in this forum is expressing ourselves freely.. No one here were imposing themselves into anothers freedom..
dear kranti ok if being higher occurs I will not post here.
as osho says
either one person knows and the other doesnt or
they both know or
neither know in which case there is no point arguing.
If you feel what i am saying is right and coming from a higher place then where is your humilty.
for me it is impossible to judge someone on a computer screen but I can observe experiences i’ve been through and respon to them
my apologies if they hurt your ego
it seems i am not free to be higher
I don’t believe (in anything) but especially equality.
goodbye and much thanks for the fun
i am love
i am god
james ur sounding a bit like jesus…!
No amrito, just putting into life osho’s meditations
oh man, you are boring and annoying
Dear chetna I’ve come across many like yourself on the journey. Who love all the safe theory. But if anyone around shows signs of actual ego dropping or behaving not according to plan they become jealous.
I’ve met many.
I’m so disappointed by the sannyasins
but as i know the journey is an individual revolution, I know osho was a dreamer and a joker.
fundamentalist sannyasins! who would have believed it?
I hope your not one of them
you seem to be according to your words.
i hope some light will enter into your posts
freedom. (that includes being aggressive too, osho did not teach that anger is wrong)
Ok, James, just out of respect to you I am answering (normally I just don’t have time)
“Dear chetna I’ve come across many like yourself on the journey. Who love all the safe theory. “- James, it is a bit childish to assume that we know each other. The least is needed to see each other.
“But if anyone around shows signs of actual ego dropping or behaving not according to plan they become jealous.” – James, it is good to see that you have this opinion about your ego. Good for you! But don’t forget that guys writing here are also sort of on the path and not just read Osho and maybe meditate a lot. So A) I could not care less about your ego to be jealous about, B) your ego is quite funny as it makes itself special by saying it was dropped! Dangerous move, my man, we have heard more than enough to sense the false! Have you heard that the most religious man is very humble and does not even know about his transformation? Who is there to see that the ego was dropped? Who is there to say that the ego was dropped? Anyways…..these are MY feeling and I can be wrong, but unconcerned! I have my wonderful ego to deal with.
“I’ve met many.
I’m so disappointed by the sannyasins
but as i know the journey is an individual revolution, I know osho was a dreamer and a joker.” – Hmmmm, don’t you worry about others. We will be absolutely fine without you and your disappointment. You know Osho? – That’s nice, say hello to him from me please!
“fundamentalist sannyasins! who would have believed it?
I hope your not one of them” – why do you care about sannyasins so much? Is your path a bit boring and lonely?
“you seem to be according to your words.
i hope some light will enter into your posts
freedom. (that includes being aggressive too, osho did not teach that anger is wrong)”- Some things you say just add little value to me, no comment here!
” I’ve met many.
I’m so disappointed by the sannyasins’
You have to James.. sannyasins ( neo ) are the only ones that will disappoint you continuosly..They will not be according to what you think.. They are more real..
dear chetna
“James, it is a bit childish to assume that we know each other”
-I didn’t, later on in my letter i asked if this was true of you.
“your ego is quite funny as it makes itself special by saying it was dropped! Dangerous move, my man, we have heard more than enough to sense the false! Have you heard that the most religious man is very humble and does not even know about his transformation?”
-that means osho is not enlightened, according to your logic, because he declared again and again and again he had dropped his ego.
“You know Osho? – That’s nice, say hello to him from me please!”
-of course i don’t know osho, i’ve never met him, but that wouldn’t make difference, I don’t even know anything. my experience is, life is a mystery. From my experiences I can understand what osho meant. Otherwise I dismiss him until i experience it.
“why do you care about sannyasins so much? Is your path a bit boring and lonely?”
-if you don’t care about sannyasins, what are you doing posting here???
Coming across osho gave me hope, for about 5 seconds, that it is possible to have a relgion without beliefs and believers. it has been proved wrong. Osho sannyasins are just like all other sannyasins. They blindly believe. They crisicise anyone for daring to suggest they actualy have meditational experiences. Despite Osho trying in every conceivable way to make sure his religion didn’t fall into these traps. How many times has he said ‘don’t believe me’?
I fucking hate preists and I hate how they have taken over pune so quickly and i will speak against them. that’s why i’m posting. I know it’s pointless because pride is far far bigger but i have to say something. Maybe one day in a years time something will pop and at least one person said to you ‘you’ve fallen into the trap of believing, of idol worship, of following a creed/dogma, of thinking our religion is the best, our master is the best, our master is the most appropriate for these times’ i’ve heard it from sooomany followers the same rhetoric
I can’t help but be disappointed it happened to osho so quickly.
Yes, James you are actually in the right topic too (please see above). I think you should contact Maitreya to start a Satsang Teachers Association so your wisdom does not get lost.
And then let us know so we can come and pay you meney for sharing your direct experience of Osho words.
Ok let talk about this one’They crisicise anyone for daring to suggest they actualy have meditational experiences’
So you had some experience and that makes you understand, not believe, right? So you are trying here to declare that you are not a follower and we are here a bunch of idiots who are blind and don’t mediate!
It is a forum and meditation is a private matter, nothing to show off! In fact, in my view experiences are barriers in meditations as they so easily can be the imagination of the mind to which one gets attracted to. So here you are Mr special who has seen something. And if you have had some, you know perfectly well some of them a damn scary!
But what concerns me is the fact that you simply cannot be meditative and aggressive and vulgar at the same time! So you do loose your Jesus hat easily!
Of course everything I say or anybody else you consider a theory and not a direct experience. And that’s your assumption.
You are against Pune-great, I could not care less. But you are also against sannyasins, women, Osho as a dead master and every other thing you mentioned…
Dearest chetna thank you for your words and time…i loved your letter. I’m still puzzled by the negativity I think I feel when you talk about someone having experiences, as if it’s something wrong? As if you should keep your posts to a suuitable level of ignorance?
“It is a forum and meditation is a private matter, nothing to show off! In fact, in my view experiences are barriers in meditations as they so easily can be the imagination of the mind to which one gets attracted to.”
-if this is your experience and u feel it to be true of me, you should ignore what i say. please, follow your heart.
“But what concerns me is the fact that you simply cannot be meditative and aggressive and vulgar at the same time!”
-is this your idea or experience? I used to think like that but coming across osho and dropping the enlightenment game I realised it’s just about being yourself, whatever you are and accepting it. It’s the shared experience of all the masters that they were all unique.
and as ive come across osho is the most offensive man in the history of human kind! as my friend said ‘sometimes osho is just an angry old man’!
I’m not against pune, or sannyasins, where did you get the idea i’m against wimmin? Osho is dead how can i be against it? I’m not against anyone believing, it is beautiful and part of the path of no path but my experience is that believing is an obstacle to knowing so I will speak against it, what to do??
any suggestions? should i pretend that osho is not dead? Should i say believe in him so it wont hurt anyones pride? Should i just say what you want to hear?
I will just say one thing-Osho is not dead from my experience! For me it is a fact.
If in the future it will appear to be my illusion, mind etc. let it be!
I have no doubts as it is my experience!
I totally support you that blind believing is no help to a seeker. But being as Osho sannyasi, sensitive and searching, I don’t think with Osho it will be possible!
I don’t just read Osho, I practice his meditations everyday. And from my experience only then I can hear something of what he is trying to convey.
In any case, dead or not dead Osho will not ‘fix’ it for me, hence a question of believing is not of my concern.
Dear chetna, fantastic that you know osho is not dead, please tell me where he lives I would like to shake his hand.
Christians say jesus is still alive.
Buddhists say buddha is still alive
etc
etc they all feel the living presence of the master etc
but according to osho and very other master i’ve ever come across you need a living guru. and that includes buddha and osho who did it without a master, they still said you need a living master!
each to their own.
Cosmos, darling! That’s the name I can give, the details I cannot give yet!
Disciples of Buddha still connect to his consciousness apparently, so do Osho’s disciples connect to Osho!
Can I prove it?- no! Can you experience it one day, of course yes.
That’s why I was saying that this is the forum and much can be said.
If you think Jesus is sleeping and is a fiction, that’s not my experience. He is fully functional too.
Masters are so compassionate! Bodies are dropped, but not the rest!
If you’re experiencing the very subtle enlightened consciousness directly i rejoice in wonder, and i guess you have passed beyond sorrow, so please forgive me, but i must follow my own truth and experience.
I don’t even know who i am never mind recognise the formless entity osho dissolved into at death. If there is such a thing as life after death, i don’t know i’ve never experienced it. osho told me to doubt, doubt and doubt and doubt him especially…that’s my path, not knowing.
And that’s beautiful to see you are on a different path…Beautiful
I like your openness. We tend to immediately reject what we have not experienced, but the fact is to be open and accepting, yet undisturbed in own path
dear chetna
YES!