Open Letter re Divisions amongst Osho disciples

Kranti Devaptha seeks Rapproachment

I am tremendously in Love with Osho and pained by all the conflicts between different Osho Groups

I have immense respect for people like Jayesh , Amrito and also Sw.Chitanya Keerthi and Sw.Arun and others who were fortunate to be with Osho..They had the courage to be with a Buddha when alive and now beautifully to spread his vision

But the conflicts surrounding all copyright / trademarks issues and the different approaches adopted to spread Osho’s vision are resulting in larger damage than people may imagine.

It is putting off so many young people who would have otherwise taken to Osho’s vision like ducks to water.. Because Osho’s vision is something so natural and about living life beautifully.

What is the point of all these conflicts and writing in this forum and elsewhere, if we all go back and get on with what we are already doing?

I am nobody to question or challenge these people who lived and breathed Osho’s vision. After all they are supposed to be the most evolved people on this planet due to Osho!

But still i am posing this question?

Is there no way to bring all of these people to come together and create a fresh impetus to Osho’s vision? Cant Pune Resort & Oshoworld & Sw.Arun start healthy and conscious discussions to resolve all conflicts.

I am nobody and this post can go unnoticed like dust in the wind.

But… Is that all there is to the Vision of Osho, the most beautiful human being to have walked on this earth?

Please…. Let us have meaningful sharing which may result in something positive.

If this post results, for example, in Sw. Keerti wrinting to Jayesh and Amrito , if it results in Pune starting a forum of its own, or something equivalent, then it will be a start to what could potentially be a NEW BEGINNING.. AND THERE IS NO LIMIT TO THE UPSIDE TO WHERE IT TAKES US.

His Love and Blessinsg to you all

I am in tears..Tears of gratitude to Osho

With Love
Sw.Kranti Devaptha

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347 Responses to Open Letter re Divisions amongst Osho disciples

  1. Chetna says:

    Kranti, yes, I am sick of hearing all these conflicts and who is right and who’s wrong. It is too much and seems the most important things get lost in those conflicts.

    To me the situation is: there are sincere people and people who came for other reasons and don’t give a damn about Osho, sannyasins and Pune resort.

    I was lucky to meet Arun and trust his work. He is actually doing all that work of uniting sannyasins and spreading love and compassion of Osho. He is heavily criticized, but that’s another story.

    Kranti, a group of people here in UK are trying something positive. For example, I have been involved in Arun’s visits to UK and all my friends and I have been trying to do is to gather people for meditations.

    Now we are organsing an event in Croydon Hall,UK at bank holiday weekend. I am really really hoping some old sannyasins come. If we don’t meditate, get together and listen to Osho’s words no positive outcome is possible. So I value these camps the most.

    And it is not only Arun that we invite and orginise camps for-all sincere sannyasins are welcome.

    So bits are done here and there.

    On a larger scale, like Pune resort resolutions, I cannot even comment. Too much dirty politics seem to be involved. That’s for the old boys and girls to answer how they ended up there.

  2. Anthony Thompson says:

    sorry Kranti, but the discussion is too interesting in the previous post. so I may come back late to this one.
    meanwhile, I am sure you can cuddle with chetna
    anthony

  3. shantam prem says:

    Oh Oh. Ma Chetna…. Bring any other name in the context with Osho; Arun or Varun, Inna Meena tina and it is a turn off.

  4. Chetna says:

    Shantam I can only speak of what I know.
    In the end of the day for me Osho and all the rest are two defferent worlds-do not worry about that!

  5. Beloved Kranti
    I understand your feeling and your concern. Before leaving Pune, I had good discussion with Amrito as he had invited me to dinner in Blue Diamond. We sat till midnight. After the discussion, Amrito said: Keerti, you gave me headache. When there’s a discussion, there are mainly heads involved not hearts. So people may end up having more headache.

    There’s another way–the way of the heart. But the ways of the heart, Love, Devotion, Singing…are becoming old fashioned or very Indian. Anthonies may not like it. Too much mentation is understood as something very intelligent.

    When I asked someone why have you removed Osho’s photo from Buddha Hall, the answer that I got was: ..so that some stupid Indians should not come and start worship it. The phot had been there for dacades and no stupid Indian was seen worshipping having any insence in his hand. And these stupid Indians always did what they were told to do. They could not have erected any temple therewithout permission. You know you tell them wear whie socks when you go to Osho samadhi, they wear. You tell them don’t carry anything with you, they don’t carry anything. this was what was always happening. i did not understand this sudden paranoia that stupid Indians will be worshipping the photos. They always behaved the way theyy were told to behave. There might have been very few exceptions, the real ignorant ones, but some different kinds of exceptions are always there in the Westerns also. Mostly people follow the rules when they enter the commune. And if they don’t they could be gently or lovingly informed. There’s no need of being so rude as the managers behave these days when they see some ignorant Indian sannyasin wearing Osho mala. So many come back from resort and tell the stories that Amrito or Amrit Sadhana or Dhyanesh were rude to them because they were sen wearing mala. They detect even the hidden mala under the robe. Now this is being too dictatorial. It might be very intelligent, but it lacks heart and sensitivity.
    Kranti, I appreciate your concern. And I wish you all the best.
    Love to you

  6. Alok john says:

    I rather suspect there is not a solution. Ultimately, there is a massive culture chasm between India and the West which is reflected here.

    “There was an old man in a village, very poor, but even kings were jealous of him because he had a beautiful white horse. Kings offered fabulous prices for the horse, but the man would say, “This horse is not a horse to me, he is a person, and how can you sell a person, a friend?” The man was poor, but he never sold the horse.

    One morning, he found that the horse was not in the stable. The whole village gathered and they said, “You foolish old man! We knew that some day the horse would be stolen. It would have been better to sell it. What a misfortune!” The old man said: “Don’t go so far as to say that. Simply say what IS – that thehorse is not in the stable is the fact; everything else is a judgment. Whether it is a misfortune or a blessing I don’t know, because this is just a fragment.”

    People laughed at the old man. They had always known that he was a little crazy.But after 15 days, suddenly one night the horse returned. He had not been stolen, He had escaped into the wild, and not only that, he brought back a dozen wild horses with him.

    Again the people gathered and they said, “Old man, you were right. This was not a misfortune, it has indeed proved to be a blessing.” The old man said: “Again you are going too far.” Just say what IS – that the horse is back. Who knows whether it is a blessing or not? It is only a fragment. You read a single word in a sentence – how can you judge the whole book?”

    This time the people could not say much, but inside they knew that he was wrong.The old man had an only son who started to train the wild horses, when just a week later he fell from a horse and his legs were broken. The people gathered and again they judged, saying, “Again you proved right. It was a misfortune. Your only son has lost the use of his legs, and in your old age he was your only support. Now you are poorer than ever.

    “The old man said, “You are obsessed with judgment. Don’t go that far. Say only what IS – that my son has broken his legs. Nobody knows whether this is a misfortune or a blessing. Life comes in fragments and more is never given to you.”

    It happened that after a few weeks the country went to war, and all the young men of the town were forcibly taken for the military. Only the old man’s son was left, because he was crippled. The whole town was crying and weeping,because it was a losing fight and they knew most of the young people would never come back.

    They came to the old man and said, “You were right, old man- this has proved a blessing. Maybe your son is crippled, but he is still with you. Our sons are gone forever.”The old man said again, “You go on and on judging. Nobody knows!

    Only say this, that your sons have been forced to enter the army and my son has not been forced. But only God, the total, knows whether it is a blessing or a misfortune. Judge not – otherwise you will not become one with the total.”- -

    With fragments you will be obsessed, with small things you will jump to conclusions. Once you judge, you have stopped growing. Judgment means a stale state of mind, and mind always wants judgment, because to be in a process is always hazardous and uncomfortable.

    In fact, the journey never ends. One path ends, another begins; one door closes another opens. You reach a peak; a higher peak is always there. God, the total, is an endless journey.

    Only those who are so courageous that they don’t bother about the goal but are content with the journey, content just to live the moment and grow into it, only those are able to walk with the total.” Our Beloved Master

    So who knows.

  7. Kartar says:

    This is a transcript of an ACTUAL radio conversation of a OIF naval ship with Oshoworld off the coast of Sannyas News:

    Oshoworld: Please divert your course 15 degrees South to avoid a collision.

    OIF: Recommend you divert your course 15 degrees North to avoid a collision.

    Oshoworld: Negative. You will have to divert your course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision.

    OIF: This is Captain Swami Pramod a US Navy sannyas ship. I say again, divert YOUR course.

    Oshoworld: Namaste, Namaste! I say again, you divert YOUR course.

    OIF: THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS OSHO, THE LARGEST SANNYAS SHIP IN THE UNITED STATES’ ATLANTIC FLEET. WE ARE ACCOMPANIED BY THREE DESTROYERS, THREE CRUISERS AND NUMEROUS SUPPORT VESSELS. I DEMAND THAT YOU CHANGE YOUR COURSE 15 DEGREES NORTH, I SAY AGAIN, THAT’S ONE-FIVE DEGREES NORTH, OR COUNTER-MEASURES WILL BE UNDERTAKEN TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THIS SHIP.

    Oshoworld: This is a lighthouse. Your call.

  8. oshobob says:

    Alok john,

    That’s a great story, one of my favorites, which Osho has told many times in different contexts.

    It is a Chinese story, very old, which stills exists today in the form of a 4-character “saying” — Sai Weng Shi Ma — The Old Man of the Frontier Who Lost His Horse.

    A gem.

  9. shantam prem says:

    Good morning Alok…
    as you pointed properly …Ultimately, there is a massive culture chasm between India and the West which is reflected here.
    One can see this in the very personal sharing of Keerti and Amrito, the two fingers in left and right hand of the same master…
    Between India and west is not a very big cultural clash as between two highly polulated religions. India’s flexibility is legendry and its openness for understanding the west i growing tremandously. As i read in one newspaper,” Geographically Pakistan is our neighbour, in reality it is America!
    Heart and head, left and right hand, and it is Namaste!
    Without bringing my Indianness In, I will say in the case of Ashram, Amrito and Jayesh have gone a bit too far by alinating all those from east and west, who were with Osho from their very youth. Basically it was in the ratio of 90 to 10, the educated westerns who lest their carriers to hang around on the scooters in Pune.

  10. Heraclitus says:

    The main worry from the open letter is about how young people are being “lost” to sannyas because of divisions.
    But actually the paradox is that with Arun going around the world, and Keerti going half around the world, and the “Resort” also continuing to attract poeple who take sannyas that many more people are taking sannyas than if just one of these three factions inherited the mantle of Osho!
    I would be interested however whether Kranti has real cases where people have been put off Osho by divisions. i certainly have heard and met people who have been put off Osho because of the denouement of the Ranch, and the strange things that seemed to go on between 1982 and 1985. Of course there are many others who are not put off by such things. But it is true that say in 1979 some people would have taken sannyas, but not by 1986 or later.
    Krant or anyone else, can you answer this question.

    My feeling is that a Master does use devices, and the Ranch denouement may well be one of them, to “put off” or get rid of those who are not ready for him. I also do take on board that Osho would have known there would be divisions after his death (after all there were divisions when he was alive!) and like the Buddha different schools would develop, and there was not much that could be done about it.

  11. Alok john says:

    I put up th story because I thought Keerti was being judgemental about the Pune Resort.

    “Just say the Resort managers are sometimes rude, but don’t make a judgement out of it.”

    One would hope that an old sannyasin like Keerti would be able to apply Osho’s discourses in his own life. I mean, I presume Osho’s discourses are meant to be applied in one’s life.

  12. Kranti says:

    Sw. Keerti and all fellow Sannyasins

    I am greatful for your reply and love

    I dont have the capacity to understand certain things that happen at a higher level or things which are not in the public domain

    After all People like Jayesh , Amrito and Keerthi know what is the best way to keep Osho’s vision alive..

    Infact only they will have the right meditative mind to know what is the right path..not people like me who are yet to mature

    When i express something it is more as an outsider seeing things.But some how i feel the divisions are not helping the cause.

    I think Osho is Vast enough to incoporate all kinds of people be it Heart Oriented or Head Oriented ..

    Precisely thats the reason why Osho had to devise so many techniques so any type of sannyasin will have the opportunity to experiment and grow

    By having differences of opinions like this , are we not splitting Osho himself..It pains me to visualize that Osho himself is being fragmented …

    In everything Osho wanted to see a WHOLE MAN.. A NEW MAN

    Dont we have space for all kinds of people to co-exist

    Here we are , within 20 years of Osho leaving the body , talking about one Osho centre dealing with Head and another center dealing with Heart

    Is this not completely against what Osho wanted to see?

    Osho said , within 100 years from now major part of the world will be following Him

    If His work is getting fragmented like what is happening now , how that will happen?

    To me the Core issue is having an Infrastructure where different Osho centres can co-exist and contribute to spread His vision

    I am not saying we need to build 1000s of Osho centres like temples … That is silly and will suit old fashioned religions certainly not Osho.. I am not saying we need to do missionary work

    All i am saying is let us put behind these Copyrights issues and also sort out few issues related to infrastructure so that we can move forward with the DREAM

    Osho is Too VAST and He left a dream that is Too BIG

    We are going nowhere with the things that are happening now to keep that Dream alive.

    Heraclitus

    Just read other forums .. you will find that people are getting fed up with all these conflicts… You dont need any astrolgy to predict the outcome and real life examples…

    It is too plain and you can see

    All the young people will end up with few Osho books in their hands and few debates on forums for timepass.. Nothing more…

    How can you make all those youngsters to reach out to a Osho centre and do Dynamic Meditation rather being Book worms?

    In another 20 years from now we will see only Osho books in different book shops and railway station stalls.. people will not go any further…

    Osho asked us not to use his teachings like a towel we put on our shoulders.. Keeping it whenever we want and Keeping it away whenever we dont want.. And thats the path where we are leading the youngsters

    I heard lot of people who come to Oshodhara dont anything about Osho.. That is the damage that can happen when you allow centres like Oshodhara to get out of control and give enlightenment certificates

    Check out a guy who is roaming on the road with a enlightenment certificate in his hand and a prefix titled Osho.. You will know what kind of damage has happened to Osho’s vision

    It simply PAINS.. It can happen to anyone including a Buddha.. But not to Osho..

  13. Kranti says:

    And my humble request … please let us not convert this forum for timepass or legpulling…

    Let us not bring in meaningless jokes and debates and then go home and watch TV

    Let us contribute something productive.. PLEASE

  14. Andreas Roth says:

    As Anthony, I think it was a mistake of the old boy not to dismantle the whole thing and send everybody home. All the divisions amonst osho are a coercive consequence therof and inavoidable.

    For example, it was a mistake from the very beginning to make trademark and copyright an issue and even a legal case. The decision clearly shows a understanding which is felt wrong to a vast majority of sannyasins throughout all the parties. And this is not only because of monetarian interest of individuals. To copyright osho somehow is on the same line as trying to copyright genes. It obviously is about control and says that there is a group of people who think themself to have a right to do that. Now that is is religion. What else? Kind of a church. And it is not only wrong because of the inner aspects, but also for simple logical reasons: If they win the case, they created a deep friction and it shows that they have no will to overcome it at all. But copyright only last for some time after the death of an author, so there is no absolute control anyway. If they loose the case, they are really in the shit. That’s like if you start a war and do not think about the consequences and how to get out of it again.

    All of this may be understood as an intention to protect oshos “message” of alienations of all kind. But who is able to create a osho canon or a osho bible or a osho antitheologica? Because that is what is needed if you tell others, that you have the real osho in your hand.

    I think the whole thing will become a religion! Actually that’s one of the reasons for me to be on forums. Kind of a curiosity to see and understand how a religion emerges. I bet, there will be many to understand J.K.s wisdom later on. There will be dozens of mad sects, all claiming to represent the “real” osho and fighting each other off. And even professors of oshology. No one is able to give distinct and clear guidance. Anybody can find any statement of osho to prove his or her standpoint.

    Also the old stalinist style of publishing decisions by a central committee won’t work anymore in times of the internet. I still remember public statements, published long after Osho went back to India, were those who had left were bashed in a completely intolerable way using arguments which were utterly ugly. Long after Sheela was out of office. To me, those who left then, were the ones who had the intelligence and the guts. They said no, where all the yes sayers said yes. They said no, while osho praised the yes, but he himself never would have said yes to any “master”, any instructions, any obidience. I have respect for people like Pari, the co-founder of this website. Osho always said not to create a religion. And what is happening?

    The internet can not be stopped. Much of what comes up here in public, comes up, because the regime is not listening. It is high time to change the old rigid style and open up. This style is also responsible for all great deal of the divisons.

    Many intelligent people left, as they could not accept the consequences of intolerable things to happen. Certainly everybody has his own story and drew his own consequences. But I have spoken with at least two hundred sannyasins during the years privately, many of them had a really hard time on all levels of their existence. And I hate that stupid talk that “it was all a device”. No, much of it just was stupid. Nothing else. Today most of the people who left have gained new perspectives and understanding as they get older. Some just don’t care anymore.

    I also have no respect for the fools who think they will gain anything with their great adortation for a dead man, calling it “love” day in day out. They are just spanking the monkey. They are responsible for the creation of a religion and the frictions too.

    To me it is very simple: do not follow dead masters. Actually you should not follow anyone. The only difference between all the spiritual gansters is their wit and intelligence. I freely admitt, osho easily topped al capone and other gansters on the fly. But no one prays to al capone. You just become a total idiot if you do that, like the ones of oshodhara.

  15. Kranti says:

    Alok john

    Keerthi may be judgemental or may not

    But what we all are doing?

    Are we not judgemental about everything and everyone connected to Osho

    I started off with a very serious judgement about Keerthi.. I even insulted him badly..

    I had the sanity to come back to my senses quickly and i apologized to him.. He was loving enough to put me back on track

    Jayesh and Amrito and Keerthi all are beautiful people who have at their Heart only one thing.. Love for Osho

    They have lived and breathed Osho

    Whatever we say can at the best be ‘ as an outsider’

    But that is a very significant thing because that is what is going to influence all the youngsters in the coming years

  16. Kranti says:

    Andreas

    You are intelligent..

    But you didnt pop out of an egg one fine day and become an intelligent man

    That intelligence was influenced by the oppurtunities and space you had to develop it

    You should be greatful for the environment in which you lived.. thats is what shaped you..

    You could have ended up in a church kneeling down infront of a stupid father to forgive your sins.. But you didnt..

    Dont try to take credit for your intelligence on your own

    If there is one guy who can do that it has to be ADAM.. not anyone else who followed later

    We are not taking about an average human being who just needs excuses to lead life the way he wants

    We are talking about a Master who had the courage to question all the old conditionings and create a space for people to do the same.. thats why you are doing it now.. Your like or dislike to Osho has nothing to do with it.. Infact thats why i said although you are not attched to Osho or any other master..you are living exactly the kind of Intelligent life Osho wanted people to live..

    Now that you have become intelligent why are you denying that opportunity to all the youngsters who are ready..

    By nature of His teachings no one can blindly follow HOsho . It is just not possible..

    Osho had done that job himself..We dont have to worry about that ..

    Let us not be that Egoistic to believe we need to do a job left undone by Osho..

    Let us not try to stop people thinking that they MAY convert everything into a Religion and all.. It is just sheer Ego

    let us trust in the intelligence of all the youngsters who are ready to experiment what Osho taught.

    All we want is Space for people to experiment Osho’s teachings and see for themselves where Life can take them

  17. Satrakshita says:

    Division?
    What division?
    Methinks every sannyasin continues to do ‘his own thing’,
    like it has always been,
    perfectly in accord with…
    His Master’s Voice.

  18. Kranti says:

    Great! Not everyone is as fortunate as you Satrakshita

    People need Osho , His Vision and the Commune and a supporting system

    .. At least for another 100 years

    After that either human beings may not need any teaching or planet earth may not be there to need it.

    Osho himself has talked about the power of collective effort

    Just because some individuals have reached a certain growth , does not mean others dont need any supporting system

    And what we are talking about is Future.. where we can potentially drag Osho’s work into just another teaching and confine it to few books and audio downloads from websites..

  19. Anthony Thompson says:

    well, well, well, Now your post kranti.
    I have to admit i did some research and sure you are not a woman. I found your picture in facebook and Shantam… your face seems familiar, I must have seen you in Pune.
    The whole issue is that re- unison is just not possible, because the visions are different, because the priorities are different. because it may be a different cultural interpretation of the whole thing.
    And there is no need to unite. Once Osho was asked that he had spoke at length about the relationship between master and disciple, what was the relationship between disciple and disciple?
    He said ” None, there´s no relationship between disciples. they are connected to me not to each other.”
    So his insistence was always to be individuals doing their own thing. So, no need for any club.
    I am ok with everybody doing what everyone think of feel is appropriate.
    some things I like more than others… but that is my trip
    anthony

  20. Kranti says:

    Thats right Anthony

    Ultimately every individual is left on his own

    If all the masters including Osho think it is appropriate to have a system in place to spread a vision , why we should come in the way of it?

    The ongoing conflicts come in the way of doing that and some amount of discussions / setting right will put things back on track

    And certainly Osho will be the last man , around Him someone can create a religion.. It is not possible

    And ithe whole issue is because people cannot put together a organized religion around Him and it is left to individuals..There is no common IDEALOGY which is required to create a religion

    But the least we can do is allow some basis structure to exist without conflicts..

  21. Anthony Thompson says:

    Kranti. I do not think Osho wanted a system to spread anything.
    He did not want any structure at the end. he wanted his place in India to be” the biggest health club” in the world. with him it was always ” the biggest”. and he wanted people to go there to rest, to meditate, and then go back home. that is what he said. He insisted that every sannyasin was on his own. The structure of the ashram was just functional ” In a tavern some one should poor the wine” he said.
    “Your relationship is to me not to each other”
    that was his point.

  22. Kranti says:

    Osho is Osho.

  23. oshobob says:

    It’s interesting to note, talking about ‘judgements’, and the Chinese story of the Old Man Losing His Horse, that this story is usually brought up for negative judgements. That is only half the story. 99 times out of 100, this saying is used as a consolation, a warning, a “don’t make your black judgement so soon — things will change for the better.”

    But the other half is just as real, just as natural, but not used much. When something is going great, you’re on the top of the world, no one usually says “Sai Weng Shi Ma”. Everyone’s too busy being in the flush of things, success is here, things are expanding.

    When Poona 1 was on it’s ‘red tide” roll in the late 70′s, who brought up the story of “Don’t Judge So Soon”?

    When Rajneeshpuram was fleshing itself out at an incredible rate of growth in the 80′s, who stood up and said, “hey, this is great, but uh…don’t judge so quickly, things will be on the downturn soon…”?

    And so on. When there are obvious problems and obstacles, as in the case here between the different Osho factions, it’s so easy to float up the story of that old Chinese man with his white horse. But if all the battles stopped, and the great gleaming Osho cities of meditation and love flooded over this earth, Keerti and Doc Amrito were hugging and crying in uncontrollable joy, who would have the guts to stand up and say “Sai Weng Shi Ma” ?

    I think when this story is brought up on a 50/50 percentage in the face of the highs and lows in this world, then you will have a natural existence. I don’t know about a Lotus Paradise, but at least a balanced, natural existence.

  24. Anthony Thompson says:

    Como on , Oshobob. what.what you are saying is absurd. if when things happen according to your likings, you do not get exited, then when?
    what you are saying goes against the whole psychology of human beings. The story you tell has been used as a consolation… and it should be used as a consolation. and it will continue to be so.
    My understanding if human psychology tells me that to get exited when the universe turns your way is not only natural, but a gratefulness towards life. When it does not… get sad, very sad…. suffer, but do not make much fuss about it.. and what is wrong with that. it is just human. balance to me comes from not fighting with emotions whatever they are, not from refraining from feeling.
    what is the alternative you suggest mmmh? to look like a dead tibetan monk… or like kung fu? you know how that guy ended up…

  25. Kranti says:

    Which Kung Fun Guy Anthony.

    Bruce Lee?

  26. Alok john says:

    Kranti wrote

    “How can you make all those youngsters to reach out to a Osho centre and do Dynamic Meditation rather being Book worms?”

    You can’t. You have to be pretty desperate to need/want to do dynamic. I am glad there is not such a great demand for dynamic amongst young people here in England. It shows that not so many people are suffering so much.

    Of course the march of history and social change may change all that.

  27. Kranti says:

    Common Alok

    English mannerism will not allow you guys to do something like Dynamic.. It is just not English.

  28. Anthony Thompson says:

    which Kung fu? david carradine… the actor of the Kung fu TV series fro the early seventies

  29. Kranti says:

    Oh! Too bad.. I never knew this guy is gone.. Just realized

  30. Kranti says:

    Question for you guys.

    Has Osho talked about Kung Fu?

  31. oshobob says:

    Anthony, all I’m saying is the 2 sides are equal, that’s what that story is all about. It is basically Chinese Daoist “psychology” in a nutshell. The Yin and the Yang are equal.

    Western psychology is all lopsided — based on the goal principle of “feeling good” at the end of the session/group/meditation. The Western mind is always on a roll, always expanding — in the political/military realm it’s called imperialism. Gets you in a lot of trouble in the long run. You can’t retract and slow down, and relax. America is in that place now.
    The British Empire used to be, and they are still feeling the after effects of that policy — you could even say the Western/Indian brouhaha that we see being dicussed here in this thread is a end-game manifestation of that conflict.

  32. shantam prem says:

    kranti, you are doing great.
    i want to tell my western friends that Kranti comes from south India. By becoming a disciple of Osho he has broken a mold, to find osho in south India is as rare as to grow Mango tree in Germany.
    May be he could have become a owner of an IT company be worshiping in some temple there: every year you read in the news that some IT guy or movie actor has given few million doller worth of gold to this or that diety because wish was fullfilled.
    In this kind of background to raise a sharpness; i am sure we can give credit to Osho. If we all are feeling a bit “smart” with our thoughts and feelings, to a certain extent credit goes to our openness towards Osho.
    Though the pitfall is that with pride comes the fall. On a collective level, we the Osho’s people have put tourselves in a well packed capsule. We have developed a indifferent and arrogant collective mind. Look at the Osho publications in India or in Europe, words of the article writers, kind of advertisement,, the style and titel of the books, the land scaping in Poona 3 phase, it looks as beautiful and Herzig(Sweet) as Michael jackson’s face.
    I am not exagrating, go in any book shop, simply see a new ediiton of some Osho book and J. Krishnamurti’s book, feel the vibes and see whih book is radiating honest energy.
    When we stop contemplating our own actions, when we don’t laugh on ourselves but on Pope th Pollack or Ronald Regan, when the priests of other religions are mafias but ours are enlightend (ref. Osholeela.com, oshonow.net, oshodhara.com, madhukar, Samdarshi, Samarpan dolano and lsit goes on), For Tibet we will ask for autonomy bur for so called resort it should not be, And than hoping existance will shower flowers on us…. As Osho said in some another context, My Foot!

  33. oshobob says:

    David Carradine is found hanging dead in a hotel closet in Bangkok — suicide, it looks like.

    Inspector Clouseuauptha of the Bangkok Police says,
    “Wait, Don’t judge too soon.”

    Carradine is said to have ropes tied around his genitals, neck, and wrists in what looks to be a classic auto-erotic masturbation episode gone sour. Not suicide.

    Inspector Clouseuauptha says in an even voice,
    “Mmmm, maybe, but don’t judge so soon.”

    The Kung Fu TV actor is said to have been investigating the seamy underworld of Bangkok, tied to black martial arts practitioners involved the the Southeast Asian mafia, and his death is really a hit job done to end his nosing around there, making it look like a suicide, or sex story gone bad.

    Inspector Cleauseouapthu takes a drag on his cigarette, and murmors,
    “Well, maybe, but, let’s not judge so soon…”

    Some are saying the whole thing was a media hoax, used as a pretext to allow the American FBI to crank up operations in Thailand and Southeast Asia for “security” purposes. Carradine is back in LA relaxing. Another act in his illustrious career.

    The Inspector takes a deep breath, smiles, and wearily intones,
    “Could be, but, like I’ve said before ….”

  34. shantam prem says:

    Bob. you sense of red chilli humour is great. Any way, when you are planning to make an inspection tour towards Pune?. I have read somewhere, you were never there?
    To visit Pune is one of the hundred things before dying!

  35. Anthony Thompson says:

    wows. we are getting deep now,oshobob.
    so, lets discuss…
    what you are talking about is a state of transcended dualism most people will never experience.

    No living organism mobilizes out side its comfort zone into the environment if there is not a gain in doing so. nature has filled with pleasure those functions which support self sustainability and self procreation.

    therefore the search for pleasure is a basic human impulse. inescapable really. what might happen is that this search gets so refined that pleasure is found in energetic expansion and not in fulfillment of desires. But basically it is the same mechanism.

    what you talk about is an eastern ideal, transcending both desire and attachment. But both these psychological processes are essential for the self-sustainability of the organism, there fore you have the whole biological programs behind them.

    I am not saying such state is not possible. But certainly does not come from understanding that story. And most human beings in this planet are not even close that.

    So a better option is not to create inner conflict with the emotional process, when happy, be happy, when sad, be sad. if you get scared with so much emotional pain… then read the Chinese story and feel better by thinking you don´t really know where all this is going and might be a blessing in disguise.

  36. Dhanyam says:

    Beloved Kranti Devaptha,

    LOVE.

    While running the Osho center here in California for 23 years I was suddenly banned by the Resort. They didn’t give me any explanation, so I am in total agreement with your message. However, Osho knew this conflict is inevitable and you can find what he said about this in The Great Challenge, Chapter 9:

    This always happens: when I say something, I create two groups of people around me. One group will be exoteric. They will organize, they will do many things concerned with society, with the world that is without; they will help preserve whatsoever I am saying. The other group will be more concerned with the inner world. Sooner or later the two groups are bound to come in conflict with one another because their emphasis is different. The inner group, the esoteric mind, is concerned with something quite different from the exoteric group. And, ultimately, the outer group will win, because they can work as a group. The esoteric ones cannot work as a group; they go on working as individuals. When one individual is lost, something is lost forever.
    This happens with every teacher. Ultimately the outer group becomes more and more influential; it becomes an establishment. The first thing an establishment has to do is to kill its own esoteric part, because the esoteric group is always a disturbance. Because of “heresy,” Christianity has been destroying all that is esoteric.
    And now the pope is at the opposite extreme to Jesus: this is the ultimate schism between the exoteric and the esoteric. The pope is more like the priests who crucified Jesus than like Jesus himself. If Jesus comes again, he will be crucified in Rome this time — by the Vatican. The Vatican is the exoteric, organizational part, the establishment.
    These are intrinsic problems — they happen, and you cannot do anything about it.

  37. Kranti says:

    Shantam

    I understand the basis for what you are saying..

    South India had always been a very conservative society

    But that has started changing years ago

    It is also surprising because South India has always been a place of Athiests.. Dravidian movements

    An athiest has better prospect of understanding osho than a conservative thiest

    I know a very interesting small incident combining Osho and IT and South India .. All In One

    I had a friend who is currently in US and working in IT.

    He is a south Indian and that too from typical village side

    He never saw a computer until he was 24.. Even if he saw one he used to think it is TV

    Now comes the surprise

    At the age of 15 he came to know about Osho and secretly gathered some money and ordered few books ( translated in local language ) and along with his cows went to a valley and read .

    Though he never read Osho beyond a point when life took him in different direction ..obviously IT

    Whenever he calls me from US i used to make fun of him.

    LIFE

  38. Kranti says:

    Dhanyam

    I will read your post once i reach home.. Just rushing out of office.. ( BPO… I log out of office at around 12 everynight ) Thanks.

  39. oshobob says:

    Shantam,
    Go to Pune?
    Jeez, I don’t know about that.
    Maybe. I like storms a lot, maybe the monsoon season would suit me.

  40. oshobob says:

    Anthony, you’ve got something there with the Pleasure Principle as Motivating Force model.
    Maybe that’s what draws people to the Osho Resort in Pune. I don’t know, never been there.

  41. Anthony Thompson says:

    Perhaps it is that “refinement of energetic expansion”, called fulfillment , or looking for love or partners… or having a good time… or the pleasure of learning about oneself..who knows, or all of the above
    never been there?
    mmmh
    You´ll enjoy it for sure…
    They do not have “donkey dick soup”… but there are plenty of donkeys in India… perhaps you can prepare it yourself.
    and have it sliced… or stuffed as you prefer.

  42. shantam prem says:

    It was not a joke beloved Bod, i really mean it in a sincere way. Ashram or resort is still a place to push the buttons this way or that. Its past reputaion of relating for meditating is still intact but a little distorted.
    From end of this month, three months mansoon period will start.
    As you are going first time, i can ask my friend to send a taxi to Mumbai and keep a room for your initial stay in my flat. To search for a room is also a fun in Pune, you see the art of bargaining. You can also rent a room in the resort but than you miss few Pune experiences.
    I was living in Pune from the rent of rooms in my flat, as my flat was a extension of my ashram, ripping of the people is not allowed.

  43. Dear Friend,

    better done than said. I have been in tears for long when all this started. Already when osho left us, we have been in such a great pain.

    You can write to me at aiehfi@yahoo.co.in only if we two can start something new to begin with. See how people in China have done http://www.greencommune.org

  44. Anthony Thompson says:

    That is from where I know you shantam! I believe you were my landlord… I think

  45. Anthony Thompson says:

    Shantam. did you use to dye your hair with henna?

  46. Alok john says:

    Kranti wrote
    “English mannerism will not allow you guys to do something like Dynamic.. It is just not English.”

    People used to do dynamic naked at Shyam Singa’s old centre near baker st in the 1970s.

  47. Alok john says:

    Anthony wrote : “No living organism mobilizes out side its comfort zone into the environment if there is not a gain in doing so. nature has filled with pleasure those functions which support self sustainability and self procreation.
    therefore the search for pleasure is a basic human impulse. inescapable really. ”

    Tautologial perhaps?

  48. Anthony Thompson says:

    just didactic

  49. shantam prem says:

    Anthony, No never dyed the hairs with Henna, but with Garnier. Tell me the locality of my flat, i am trying to remember too, a Latino with an English name?
    otherwise we have seen each other on the ashram roads..where thousands of people have known each other yet without even saying Hallo even once.

    And the copyright thing…About Oshoworld everyone knows, so the hanchman in New york can make the issues.
    But there are so many other sites full with Osho discourses.. half minute of google is needed, listening one in Hindi; I wish to share these rare jewels with non Hindi speaking people.
    because of these Hindi discourses, a crop of preachers are growing in India like grass on the foot paths.

  50. Kranti says:

    Dhanyam

    Thats painful.

    Heraclitus was asking us whether there are any real life examples of the impact due to hese conflicts

    Now if we go by what has happned to you , is it not a big negative impact for lot of yong people who would have come to your cener

    Is it possible for you to share the impact as it will help us understand more.. Please share things like how people around you felt ..things which you think comfortable to share with us..

    With Love
    Kranti

  51. Anthony Thompson says:

    Sorry garnier it is, then. shantam. rag villas society?

  52. Kranti says:

    Anthony

    Even i told Shantam same thing. He looked familiar

    May be i would have seen him

    Shantam

    Are you talking about all those guys with big beard speaking in Televisions very passionately.. all copy paste from Osho?

  53. Alok john says:

    Anthony ….

    Surely a value system subtly implied “You should do whatever you want to give you pleasure. It is ‘in the genes’.”

  54. Anthony Thompson says:

    Alok. You are assigning a meaning system and drowing consequences from that, and then applying an ethical point of view
    My point is that the search for a pleasurable experience (weather is food, sex, love shelter, interpersonal contact, fulfillment, creative expression, self knowledge, or energetic expansion) is the main motivation behind human behavior.
    It is not a matter of it being right or wrong. It just is.

    My drawing point is Oshobob story were he suggested not getting to high happy. If you are not happy when you are happy… then when. happiness is quite pleasurable.

  55. Amrito says:

    My 6 Cents: or 6 Sense says:

    This whole talk of unity bores me.

    I think there will be more politics if there was ever to be a United Nations of Osho…a complete disaster waiting to happen mind you.

    Elected officials, consensus…mehh, I like it the way it is now except for:

    1) Banning
    2) Lawsuits
    3) Mis-interpretation
    4) Road-blocks

    If it wasn’t for those four things above, things would be just right and as they should be. But banning just gets you pissed. Lawsuits get you broke. Misinterpration gets you confused. And roadblocks get you paralyzed.

    The first three are pretty easily understood. The fourth I’ll explain a little more. Roadblocks currently happening within Osho can be anywhere from copyright to complete narrow-mindedness from older osho disciples who like to preach to younger sannyasins.

    So many times I’ve experienced some dude who thinks they know a shitload more than you about Osho and his work because Osho blinked at him/her. And they want to advise you of “mind trips” and what is or is not acceptable.

    So these are roadblocks: basically the “holier than thou” ego in sannyasins who think they’ve understood there master.

    One lecture Osho gave on religions and their differences is very significant in this discussion. Osho simply puts it that, there need to be any agreement within religions nor unity. In fact the more you push, the more the cracks become apparent. Osho concluded that ALL are RIGHT and the wisdom is when one can see both the black and white…

    So Sw. Kranti, apart from my jokes, you seem to be an nice genuine guy. I agree that some of these factions are really becomming quite tyrnaccal, but only on the periphery..

    For meditators, the test will be can one meditate in these meditation centers and not been disturbed? In Pune or Delhi or Kathmandu? Can one be part of this mad game and still remain peaceful, silent and calm?

    Can I reach who I AM? This seems to be the most important question of all…Is what I do in any way ppointing back towards me? If gossip takes me there than good, if dancing even better. If mala than great! If Meditation Camps than fabulous?

    But some prefer a margarita by the swimming pool in the resort. Should I ban this view , should they ban my devotion? Freedom is where its at.

    Love,
    Amrito

  56. shantam prem says:

    Yes, Anthony All these guys on the four or so Indian TV channels, telling stoires and the best effects of doing meditation. it brings peace in the family, prosperity in the business and for sure no more pre mature ejaculations, energy goes all up.
    To show a bit of class, few will steal the matter from J. Krishnamurti too, but few; as it requires the efficiency in English.
    By chance i have spend few minutes to listen the Sannyas teachers, and it is my feeling that if you could find a single new story in their sermons, i am willing to pay 25 Euro per story.

  57. Andreas Roth says:

    Amrito, your view is understandable as democracy has it’ shortcomings. But banning, lawsuits, misinterpretation and road-blocks are a INHERENT part of non-democratic style. It has destroyed oshos work. Osho was traditional in this way. He did not believe in democratic structures at all. Yet he was playing with western products like Rolls-Royces and Cartier watches without knowing where all this goodies really came from. He just did not care. Like a child or a maharajas of the old times. Democracy did not fit to his self image. His non-democratic style was the traditional style of all the gurus in the east since ever. They just did not know anything else, because modern democracy is a relativly young phenonema which presumes education and technology for the masses. Indias has a very old anti-democratic society, and the British were not such a good example for them too. India was leaning toward the Soviet Union, not towards the west at that time. But today, at least in the west you make a fool of yourself to the intelligencia, if you try to be dictatorial. It looks very very old fashioned, even uneducated and stupid somehow and they are making jokes about you. And deservedly so.

    Anthony: What osho wanted was not the “biggest health club in the world”, that’s your idea Anthony, maybe coming from your backgrounds. If he wanted that, he would not have talked about millions and even billions of people all over the world becoming his sannyasins. Osho tried to create a wave, much bigger and more lasting than a tsunami. He was out for multiplicators of his message to live it, not for some “health club”.

    Osho was a trained philosopher and a rebellious spirit, who, being born in india, soon realized playing an archarya had more impact and was more fun than being an teacher in some university. And he tried to be the greatest, inventing a new guru style, trying to top them all, not just being a “master”, but even a “master of masters” and a buddha (call it as you will, the greater the better). As merely all gurus of his time had quiet a dry style (including J.K.) and were anti-carnal it was easy for him to top them. He just had to utter the word sex or be against any of the traditional believe systems to make it into the press. And when for an historical incident all the hippies looking for pleasure and enlightenment were flocking in, they found meaning in their lives and worked day and night. He soon sensed that they were not so much spoiled by traditions and strange ideas than his indian fellows. He knew that all of this was possible only with some technological wealth for many reasons, so he was in strong support of technology (and aginst Gandi). What he did not know was that most of modern technology came into existance within about 300 years since the renaissance and these pehnonoema can not be separated from a certain spirit which comes along with open and non dictatorial societies. As in China or India today, things grew fast, too fast, so he had to find new ways. And failed, because he did not understand the historical implications of his own time. He basically ascribed his succes to himself.

    The utopia he painted did not happen because he avoided reality and based the whole thing depended on his guidance. Osho for shure was one of the best story tellers of all times. What he created was a phantastic picture, intelligent, with wit an many great facettes to it. But not able to survive in reality. A dream turning into a nightmare in the end. The drama is, that osho played his game so well, that finally he started to believe in his own game. And all the adoration and surrender as well as his use of drugs just amplifed a irreal self image. How all this people can err? One man aginst the whole past of mankind, that was his image about himself. But that definitely is too much of a task for one man.

    Osho spoke about about “zorba the buddha” and “roots and wings” but in reality his concepts of master/disciple, surrender and devotion did not give rise for the free flow of intelligence needed for such a huge task. It needs lots of realism, not surrender when it comes to build a city or even more. Even while he was immensly inspired and talented, he was completely overstrained when it came to reality, he just had not much of an idea about it. Therefore he just ignored it.

    Neither will there ever be millions of sannyasins, nor will 200 enlightened ones raise the consiousness up to such an extent that “change” is happening. That’s all but hope and myth, 20th century esoteric psycho pop hotchpotch. The wave of the 60s and 70s was unique for many reasons and will not repeat. For some parts of the world is was the time of the greatest rise of prosperity and wealth. A time when the perspectives were driven by great hopes for a better world. Todays situation is completely different. And the world is much more driven by technology and other phenonema evolving out of the global babylonia rather than by “enligtened ones”. The gadgets on your computer have more impact than all the sannyasin around the world. E.g. 23 million Iranies have internet access. So the mullahs may hold onto their power with violance for a while, but not in the long run.

    To Kranti: I think I never would “have ended up in a church kneeling down in front of a stupid father to forgive your sins”. No sir, those kind of people usually did not go to the “ashram” in pune. Maybe today, I don’t know about the resort, but not then. I went to see osho because he said things I too felt. And many others felt that too. It was in the air and osho was able to express it and get the most rebellious and alive people around him.

  58. shantam prem says:

    I hope the management people at the Ashram are also readind the news from Iran. There is a nicely written report in, www. Independent.co.uk; ” Iran’s historic day of destiny”
    I am sure, in the next issue of “Osho World” Satya Vedant will write about the defiance for freedom, same way, Satyanand, will share his wisdom in German Osho Times.
    I hope atleast one time in their life time they use the same yard stick for their great organisation as they use for the world at large.
    Mullahs of any kind can only control the uneducated and poor. World is changing so wonderfully,
    Books of mystery are not the books of management… an atmosphare of democratic transparacy enhance this mystery.
    It is natural for the Master to have the complete veto power, otherwise for what he is a master, but afterwards a system of mutual responsibilty need to be developed if disciples want to keep the shop running.
    In the next 15 to 20 years even the Alibi to be very very close with Osho will not be there…
    I hope that Jayesh and Amrito evolove a certain policy which is intelligent, The system; Osho will find Tasteful. For this they need to hug their fellow sannyasins, the sannyasins whose eyes were operated in Buddha Hall by Osho himself. Pigmys from New Nork or LA or Zürich are of no use in the matter concerned with Osho’s mystery school.

  59. Alok john says:

    Anthony, just playing the trained Oxford philosopher here…

    “My point is that the search for a pleasurable experience (weather is food, sex, love shelter, interpersonal contact, fulfillment, creative expression, self knowledge, or energetic expansion) is the main motivation behind human behavior.
    It is not a matter of it being right or wrong. It just is.”

    So if this is an empirical statement you must be able to conceive (imagine) an event which refutes it.

    See point 4 in this link : Karl Popper’s distinction between science and pseudo science…

    http://www.kenrahn.com/jfk/critical_thinking/Science_pseudo_falsifiability.html

  60. shantam prem says:

    It seems Me and Andreas were writing at the same time, and almost saying similar feelings.
    Not just democracy, but open democracy the way it is in Switzerland, rotation of power etc.

  61. Andreas Roth says:

    Hi Alok,

    I do not know much about Anthony, so just guessing, but I think he must have had kind of a liberating experience at the time when the humanistic growth movement was in full swing. So he is in great faviour of all that and even went beyond it. I guess he must have been a strong advocate for all that at a time when in the west psychology was domiated by Freud and Skinner, which looked quiet outdated and fuddy-duddy compared to Osho. So he tried to prove it all scientifically, defended it. Now, with his 60 plus something, it is not so easy to go beyond academic style and rap or create a poem with just 17 syllables. He is trying the best, a bit square-edged and a bit into pseudo sciene too, but a nice guy…

    Sorry Anthony to talk about and not with you. I just love you even when your acedemic talk is a bit to arduous, like J.K., if you know what I mean (you know that I love J.K. too even when he would have rejected it). So don’t mind about the pseudo sciene-trigger, I mean it, yet I don’t mean it :-)

  62. Kranti says:

    Amrito : We are on the same page.. Only the words we used are different

    Andreas / Shantam:

    What you guys are talking about is the way society evolves

    All these democracy / non-democracy / aristocraticy / tradition / non-tradition / techology.. whatever you name it are part of a overall society which evolves in its own way

    These are just by products of the conflicts between millions of individuals when they try to survive and at the same time , find the meaning of life

    It is not that Osho was not aware of all these .. While he played the games which suited the times the core of his teaching is always INDIVIDUAL and HIS EVOLUTION

    Society is just a collection of Individuals . But an Individual and a Collectivity of Individuals dont operate under the same conditions

    Collective evolving is slow , conflict ridden , full of compromises and all the aspects of the society you mentioned are just refelections / by products of that

    But an Individual can evolve more faster and ultimately Osho’s interest was in Individuals and not Social changes / evolution

    He clearly differentiates between Collective Evolution / Individial Evolution and Individuals cannot wait for Collective Enlightenment to happen as described by Aurobindo

    He didnt fail because he never attempted to bring Social changes / changes in Outer Reality..

    If you judge him by benchmarking against a larger goal we are bound miss Him because he never had any such goal

    It is our interpretaion that the efforts of someone of His calibre should have resulted in such and such changes

    He was always always speaking to an individual helping Him to see his Inner Reality

    Yes.. He had to play a few games of Guru / Disciple and Used few techniques to Unsettle / Attract Individuals who will not get attracated otherwise..

    But to say that He was not even aware of what he was doing and its impact is completely contradictory to our own acceptance of the Intelligence of the man.

    What Osho ultimately tried to bring us is to the point of Non-Doing.. which ofcourse doesnt mean you stop doing or living

    It is only question of operating from a different level. and it has nothing to do with what is happening outside in Society

  63. Kranti says:

    Andreas

    You say

    To Kranti: I think I never would “have ended up in a church kneeling down in front of a stupid father to forgive your sins”. No sir, those kind of people usually did not go to the “ashram” in pune. Maybe today, I don’t know about the resort, but not then. I went to see osho because he said things I too felt. And many others felt that too. It was in the air and osho was able to express it and get the most rebellious and alive people around him.

    Is that not exactly what i told you.. Your intelligence was shaped by your environment that incidentally included Osho also

    Do you meant to say you went to Osho because you were intelligent.. Then what shaped that intelligence which made you go to Osho ..How far back you can go?

    As far as the other points are concerned i repplied in my earlier post

  64. Andreas Roth says:

    Kranti, don’t be so wise brother… certainly no one “pops out of an egg” and is intelligent on the spot. But that’s exactly what I am saying and that’s also true for Osho. I am trying to say, that he is not to be handled with so much adoration, but with a critical mind too. Osho prohibited this and it created great damage to his work. Osho was not aware of many things. You can see this easily with a little distance. Same about Aurobindos great integral yoga which was but an philosphical assumption and fiction. Visit Auroville: divison, a rotten egg made of concrete and not much more. Things still have to evolve. Even when Osho may have helped you, we must go on. If you make him infallible to give some uplifting meaning to your live, that’s your choice. But that creates exactly the problems you lament about in your article. If the sannyas world is not able to change, I am not interested. And others will do the job. That’s for shure.

  65. Kranti says:

    Andreas

    Yes . I agree that i adore Osho ( up to a point ).. But it certainly is not without critical mind

    Infact thats the reason i stopped listening to Osho for a period of time and started reading / listening to various other teachers so that i will develop the capacity to look at Osho in a more healthy manner

    And i am also aware that i never met him in person and thats is a serious limitation.. In effect i am making an image out of him from reading and listening to him..Thats has its shortcomings

    But i know where my Life begins and where Osho’s guidance ends.. All i am saying is he is good enough to bring me to that state from where i can be on my own.

    So my adoration is for His capacity to bring me to that point.. It is just greatfulness for what i have learned from him.. Beyond a point i dont have anything to do with Osho as a person.

    It is like someone saving your life on the road and you are greatful to that person.. My judgement about that person stands for what he did to me.. I will not have to worry about what the person does in his personal life

    So Yes i adore Osho.. but with reason and sanity.

  66. Chetna says:

    Guys, aren’t you going a bit mad with all these talks! So much to say! Huh

  67. Kranti says:

    Yes Chetna.. I almost did..

    The following is from one of the article by Pari

    It sums up our situation


    Clinging to the Wreckage

    Where does this leave anyone for whom Osho’s ‘vision’ remains, in its essen-tials, the most heartfelt, intelligent response to life today? With a purely ‘personal’ relationship with Osho? With a shaky sannyasin old school net-work? Even the vital organisational bits, Osho Leela in the UK say, would seem arguably more influenced by Reich and Veeresh than by Osho… Yet this process of fragmentation and isolation seems insane: how can it be that so many people who are basically on the same wave-length, and have been through so much together, somehow fight shy of being part of a viable net-work of any sort at all? Why is this? “

  68. Anthony Thompson says:

    ok. First shantam i have no idea what you were responding to when you addressed me.

    Second. Andreas om may 19 1989 osho sent the following message “… we create here the biggest and most beautiful spiritual health club in the world. A kind of club. med, as in meditation”
    this is what i was referring to. and from here is the meditation resort idea.

    Alok and andreas. I was sharing the latest result of psychological research in the area of evolutionary psychology. such findings fit my own experience of more the 35 years as a psychotherapist. that is all.

    regarding the whole other interpretation andreas, i agree with some some i do not… as always

  69. Anthony Thompson says:

    …continuing.
    I do not think there is an easy way out. Osho was dictatorial and he took pride on it. he said many times he did what he wanted and encourage people to do the same.. except if they were in his ashram…. then, they had to do what he wanted.
    The management team in pune function in the same way, so is osho world, so is tapobhan, so is nisarga. there might be disagreement on the policies, but not about the ways things are handled. there is no democracy in any sannyas organization… what to say about the humaniversity… that is even based in the therapeutic community model which is highly hierarchical and structured.
    Now the alternative of having members of sannyasins voting about policies and coming to agreement is even more disastrous than before. it may take months to decide where to put a toilet.
    that will not work either.
    so my feeling is that the beauty is in the struggle, like this forum… what ever is established afterward is not the thing… but the process.
    I lived 17 years of dictatorship with Pinochet in Chile. it was an awful dark time… but it brought the best of us all. never were the youngsters so involved, so educated, so ready to fight for their rights as it was then.
    we conquered democracy… and it is faaar better that dictatorship.. I tell you. it is nice to know the secret police will not come in the middle of the night to take you away.

    But all the creativity is gone, the social concern. the youth is more ignorant than ever.

    I am puzzled. the worst brought the best in us. and democracy, just comfortably numb.

    So I like these forums. i like the discussion… but if we were to institutionalize it.. i´d be the first one to leave.

  70. Andreas Roth says:

    Hello Anthony, shure shure… I did not doubt these “latest results”.

    Maybe the “spiritual health club” or “meditation resort” is what was left in the end, but much of what happend in between would not have happend if another Esalen was what Osho was out for.

  71. Anthony Thompson says:

    certainly…Mr. roth

  72. oshobob says:

    oooooooooooooooooooooo
    eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

  73. Andreas Roth says:

    think we have to stop talking about democracy, otherwise dictator for live oshobob is falling a sleep.

  74. oshobob says:

    Most of the world lives in a masquerade.
    Most of what you read and hear is propaganda of one kind or another.
    Most social theories and political contructs are nothing but a bunch of hooey, used to subdue the masses.

    Take the much lauded “Democracy.”

    All modern democratic systems are based on the ancient Greek model, reformed to meet the needs of the host society as deemed necessary in its particular time and place.

    But the Greek democracy of 500 BCE was really a slave society, an aristocratic bougiousie dominated system — looking like something grand, but in reality not so grand. Freedom? Yeah, right!

    Half the people had no rights, because they were women. Then of the remaining half, the kids had no rights. And of the remaining adult men, only the property holders could vote on anything — the rest of the guys were basically “slaves.” No rights, no freedom, no vote, no money, no property — no nothin’.

    So, if you were a man born into money, property, power, and education, you could control the rest of the peons.
    Not a great model really. Has much changed over the last 2,500 years with this system? Probably not, as far as I can see. The people who inherit money and power control the systems. Why would they give it up?

  75. Kranti says:

    Let us put aside ourselves for a moment and go back to the Man in question.. Some quotes from Osho

    “My whole effort is to make a fresh beginning. It is bound to create condemnation of me from all over the world. But it doesn’t matter — who cares!”

    “My effort is to bring man back to his natural self. I will be condemned, I will be criticized. Every religion, every tradition, every morality, every ethical code is going to condemn me. That does not surprise me! I expect it, because what I am saying and doing is changing the very course of human consciousness.”

    “I am not much of a religious person, I am not a saint, I have nothing to do with spirituality. All those categories are irrelevant about me. You cannot categorize me, you cannot pigeonhole me. But one thing can be said, that my whole effort is to help you release the energy called love-intelligence. If love-intelligence is released, you are healed.”

    “I am not here to help your prejudices, I am not here to help your traditions, your conditionings. My work consists in demolishing you completely, because only when you are utterly demolished the new is born.”

    My way has been described as that of the heart, but it is not true. The heart will give you all kinds of imaginings, hallucinations, illusions, sweet dreams — but it cannot give you the truth. The truth is behind both: it is in your consciousness, which is neither head nor heart.”

    “I am not a way. A way leads you somewhere, it connects you with the there, and my whole effort is to bring you here. A way is there-oriented, and I am here-oriented.”

  76. Kranti says:

    Two more quotes from Osho.. Thought it is relevant to our discussions..

    I am not here to fulfill your expectations. If I fulfill your expectations I will never be able to transform you. I am here to destroy all your expectations, I am here to shock you. And in those shocking experiences your mind will stop. You will not be able to figure it out – and that is the point where something new enters you.”

    “People ask me why the society is against me. The society is not against me – I am anti-social. But I can’t help it – I have to do my thing. I have to share what has happened to me, and in that very sharing I go against the society.”

  77. Kranti says:

    One more.. I am sorry if i am overdoing it.. After all it is sannyas forum not a political one..So i am taking the liberty

    “Please don’t try to understand me intellectually. I am not an intellectual, in fact I am anti-intellectual. I am not a philosopher, I am very anti-philosophic. Try to comprehend me. Listen silently with no inner chattering, with no inner talk, without evaluating. I am not saying believe what I say, I am not saying accept what I say. I am saying there is no need to be in a hurry to accept or reject. First at least listen – why be in such a hurry? When you see a roseflower, do you accept or reject it? When you see a beautiful sunset, do you accept or reject it? You simply see it, and in that very seeing is a meeting. If what I am saying has anything of truth in it, it will be understood by your heart. But the mind has to give way. And then you will not need to change your life according to it, it will be changed of its own accord.”

  78. Kranti says:

    If you guys want to Hop back to previous article please do so.. Amrit Bhaskar is inviting you guys ..

    Trouble brewing for that poor fellow

  79. Anthony Thompson says:

    Kranti… you are turning from an alleged woman to an evangelical man.
    But nice quotes anyway.

  80. Andreas Roth says:

    Oshobob I was thinking like you for quiet some time. But I have changed through indepth and practical experiences.

    Anthony? What are you doing here? What is this forum about? This “struggle” here IS democratic! And why is there no forum at osho.com? I feel osho.com is snoring and completely boring. Also I completely doubt creativity is gone in Chile. Maybe you just don’t participate. In a democracy it’s up to you! If you become comfortably numb it’s up to you.

    And I tell you, I have been sitting on quiet some toilets all over the world. Democracy has produced more and quicker and better and even ecological toiltes than any other system. So having a good shit can be even meditative, – no police to come in and arrest you for subversive actions, even when you give a shit on politicians or priests. If people fall aslepp at their toilets, they are free to do that. Others are free to enfold their lives or at least their shit. If you waste your live it’s up to you. To me there is no need for dictatorship at all. I just don’t need it. No thank you.

  81. oshobob says:

    Don’t go back!
    Onward Osho soldiers!
    Onwards, upwards, inwards!
    Marching to Pretoria, marching to Punetoria,
    even to Poughkeepsie… why not?

  82. shantam prem says:

    Anthony,
    You have bought forward the message of may 19, 1989.
    Can you also bring out the last message of Osho delivered on 19th January, 1990 by Amrito in the packed Buddha Hall, about the future of His work.
    That video has the key, that video is the milestone.
    The speech of Dr.Amrito provides the basic sketch of His work.

  83. Andreas Roth says:

    Hope Amrit stays at the other thread, one Kranti is enough. Good joke though Kranti, you made into the inner circle of the samurais…

  84. Kranti says:

    Anthony i just wanted to change the flavour of the discussion little bit.. What better way than to go back some Osho quotes

    Shantam / Anthony: How do you bring out that Video

  85. oshobob says:

    That video “I Leave You My Dream” was a good example of what I’m talking about — a propaganda piece posturing as reality.

    Wake up boys.

  86. Andreas Roth says:

    shit, that was to quick, should be: “you made IT into the inner circle of the samurais…

  87. Kranti says:

    Andreas.. Poor guy Amrit..

    He will wait anxiously for replies

  88. Kranti says:

    Inner circle is always nice.. i am proud of that.

  89. Andreas Roth says:

    I have heard so much propaganda, day in day, it just insults my intelligence. That’s why oshobob.

  90. Andreas Roth says:

    Fucking hell, you are out of it again Kranti, you should not be proud if it…

  91. Anthony Thompson says:

    Im lost.
    what are we discussing about?

  92. Kranti says:

    Oh.. Sorry The Goose was in for a minute

  93. Kranti says:

    Congratulations Anthony .. You have arrived

    Losing yourself is arriving

  94. oshobob says:

    The Inner Circle?
    Everyone left of the 21 except the White Men — Doc Amrito, Jayesh, his brother the ‘Tai Chi’ guy, the German Klaus S., ….hey, 10,000 Buddhas can’t stop 5 liquor soaked white men? And you wonder why sannyas fizzled out?

  95. Kranti says:

    Not trying to become too serious.. I never made an effort to know who are all those 21 people.. Do you guys have full list.. or a link? Any interesting article on Inner circle.?

  96. Andreas Roth says:

    yes oshobob 10.000 well conditioned Buddhas, and they can’t screw even one lightbulb out…

  97. oshobob says:

    All the girls left, Mukta, Anando, Neelam, Kaveesha, Avirbhava, — just a handful of totering old wheezing geezers are left — I haven’t seen a photo of Jayesh in over 20 years, maybe he’s not even alive anymore, but no one knows it…

  98. Anthony Thompson says:

    By the way… any body has heard about Frank?
    I am worried he might have O. D.

  99. oshobob says:

    The last we “heard” of Jayesh, he was told by the managers of the Mumbai hotel he stays at to go to his room (like a good boy) during the “terrorist” attacks a few months ago. And he did like he was told! Cowered in his hotel room bathtub eating only peanuts for a day! You would have thought a tough hard drinking Mick like O’Byrne would have a little courage — saving women and children in the halls and stairwells from the terrorists, but it doesn’t look like that was the case….

  100. Andreas Roth says:

    the girls were bored by the old geezers I guess and Jayesh probably is sitting in his money bunker in switzerland, like donald duck, waiting for enliLIDLment.

    What’s O.D. Other Dates?

  101. oshobob says:

    no, frank’s around Anthony, he’s just working on his schtick, his gag-lines, just sharpening the edge of the blade….

  102. Anthony Thompson says:

    O. D. is over dose.
    anyway, What are sou so pissed about oshobob?
    Anmdras i understand… but what about you?
    just because pramod would bite your line?

    besides there were never 10.000 thousand Buddhas. they were more like 3500.

  103. oshobob says:

    3,500 Buddhas?
    Well, shit….Osho said it would only take 200 to start the wildfire to change the whole world. What happened?

  104. oshobob says:

    Tony, i’m not pissed, i’m happy.
    did you mean Steeg “didn’t” bite my line?

  105. Anthony Thompson says:

    !0.000 Buddhas was the way Osho refered to the assembly of sannyasins sitting in Buddha hall every night.
    but we know the old man was prone to exageration… they were just 3500

  106. Anthony Thompson says:

    yes steeg

  107. oshobob says:

    The old man was prone to exageration!?
    That is an understatement.
    what about the 200 Buddhas changing the world, Tony, out of the 3,500 resevoir, what about that….?

  108. Anthony Thompson says:

    yea, pramod, klaus steeg. nice guy…Germans are nice people.

  109. oshobob says:

    Nice people?!
    Ask the Jews about that.

  110. Anthony Thompson says:

    I am jew… nice people. exactly because of that. the guilt feeling and the lessons they learned about that made them into very nice people. My girlfriend is German… I know about this subject.

  111. Andreas Roth says:

    ey don’t let’s get too deep. By the way, who counted the 3500, I do not even believe the 3500?

  112. oshobob says:

    Your girlfriend is German?!
    Tony, I don’t know any macho Latino man who would have a German girlfriend…..is she a sannyasin? One of the ball-busting group leaders from Poona 1 perhaps?

  113. Anthony Thompson says:

    who counted? the people who were at the door. they were with a little hand machine counting everybody. the time most people were in the ashram was in 1991. they were around 6500. in the buddha hall you can not sit more than 3200 people. in the new auditorium you can sit 5600.
    see ? I have all the information. I talked to everybody… should I get a life? ha, ha.

  114. Andreas Roth says:

    I knew you knew it!!!

  115. Anthony Thompson says:

    no.she is just a yoga teacher. And believe me… you do not want to date a latina. unless you want to become her daddy… with all that it implies. German girls are fantastic. straight, self empowered, independent… and ready to go to bed. I just love them!

  116. Andreas Roth says:

    You just can’t believe how much I am loughing about all these numbers by Anthony, you just can’t imgaine, you are really funny Anthony :-)

  117. Andreas Roth says:

    I think someone should copy that lines by Anthony and send it to his girl friend, she will get 10 years younger and even more beautiful

  118. Anthony Thompson says:

    Funny?. I am like a German… methodical in my research, systematic, covering all the edges. I know this subject like the palm of my had… and I should get a life.. I know.
    ha, ha

  119. Anthony Thompson says:

    actually, my dear Andreas. she is 20 yeas younger than me.. see!!… scientific research has its payoffs. not in vain all this useless information I have!

  120. oshobob says:

    Anthony, you’re not fooling me a bit. This whole cover is just too much…I am going to have to bring Inspector Cleousauptha into this case soon, if things don’t straighten themselves out…

  121. Andreas Roth says:

    I knew we are brothers and good enemies.

    Where is holy Kranti. I start missing the guy, – but please don’t quote Osho, I have heard 10.000 hours of lectures and now I am somewhat allergic to quotes…

  122. Andreas Roth says:

    Tried to google “Cleousauptha” but even google did not know…

  123. oshobob says:

    Right Andreas, no more quotes to support your personal opinions….what a cowardly way to live.

  124. Anthony Thompson says:

    Oshobob. You have always been suspicious of me from the beginning…
    come on!
    If I get too light you think I am not a professor of psychology. If I am not hip enough… can´t rap or tell jokes, you think is is BECAUSE i am a professor. see?
    no way to keep you happy.
    yea, kranti, is collecting some quotes… and Frank???

  125. Kranti says:

    Andreas.. I am there.. Little bit quite ..Thats it

    Ok Ok No more quotes

  126. oshobob says:

    Andreas, that’s Peter Sellers, doing Inspector Cleauseau in the Pink Panther movies I think, but with a Thai ending to his name, because I remade him into a Bangkok Homicide Detective, working on the Kung Fu guy case. It just fits in with this forum — circumspect identities and all, — it’s more like a Looney Tunes gathering of cartoon characters with an interest in Osho, buddhahood, democracy, and all the rest….

  127. Andreas Roth says:

    Ah!

  128. Anthony Thompson says:

    Osho bob. are you stoned?

  129. oshobob says:

    By the way, this here is a good example of participatory democracy in action — everyone is free to speak whatever they want, but…nothing changes!

  130. oshobob says:

    Hill Brothers Coffee is all, Anthony. Good to the Last Drop!

  131. shantam prem says:

    Ok Guys tea time is finishd, back to work.
    This morning I have send the link of this discussion to Dr.Amrito with my comments at 08.17 A:M. I hope he will be courtacious enough to break the bread with us!

  132. Anthony Thompson says:

    shantam. good your are back . you did not answer. were you my land lord? the possibilities, are: Yogi park, mogul gardens Rag villas society, sham sharam.

  133. oshobob says:

    yes, it would be good to hear the diagnosis and the prognosis from the good doctor himself. can’t wait — i’m on the edge of my chair…

  134. Andreas Roth says:

    “everyone is free to speak whatever they want, but…nothing changes”.

    Look: That’s a good definition of enligthenment! And it’s fun too.

  135. Anthony Thompson says:

    oshobob. we are “letting the grass grow by itself”… while we discuss and argue and entertain ourselves… you included. Unless, of course you are standing outside the osho resort with a big sight on your shoulder, chained to the the visitors center…. which i doubt.
    we are not changing the world… just making it for fun for us in this ( chilean weather) Grey and quiet afternoon.

  136. oshobob says:

    Anthony’s getting Zennish now — “letting the grass grow by itself” — mmm, watch out, TonyZ, you may slip into a state of no-mind with no return ticket. Your German yoga girlfriend would get lonely very quickly too.

    A human society is not a jungle though, it is a garden at its best. If you just wait, and let the grass grow, then….uh, the grass will grow, for sure, but your flowers and fruits will take a beating.

  137. frank says:

    firstly,rumours of my death have been greatly exagerated.
    acually,i have been on a whisky diet.
    i have lost three days already.
    overdose?
    no tony,i dont do drugs or alcohol.
    see i`m naturally creative.it is a result of living in a fascist regime run by my girlfriend,a girl from the north of england.i dont know if you know what they are like,but lets just say that if osho had had a northern girl instead of the soft southerner vivek,the history of sannyas would have been very different,i can assure you.
    in fact she is away now,and nowthat i am completely free,my creativity has ebbed away,….i can`t think of anything funny to say at all.

    an osho walks into a bar and……..er,cant remember what he did…..
    see?

  138. Anthony Thompson says:

    sure…
    guys I just run out of clever things to say .
    still worried about Frank

  139. Kranti says:

    Grey Afternoon!!! Good to hear.

    I am at a city where you get burned if you try to go out

  140. Anthony Thompson says:

    There you are… juts writing one minute before me!!!

    i am your most devoted admirer, after Andreas, of course… but you can´t blame him he is German.
    So you do not do drugs… what a disappointment!
    who are you really? a bold guy in a grey suit?
    I prefer to picture you as a bearded old hippie,… puffing some stuff and writing in your laptop.

  141. Kranti says:

    It is 2 am here.. Let me catch up some sleep

    If there is some change happens in the world of Osho

    in the next three hours please wake me up.. I dont

    want to miss a thing

    His Love and Blessings to you all
    Kranti

  142. Dhanyam says:

    Kranti,

    You are asking about the impact the banning had on me and people around me. I think “shock” is the best word to describe how I and the people around the center felt at the time. New people are usually not into politics so they were surprised and didn’t understand what is going on. Time passes, and we have all moved on. The center and I are doing exactly the same as before my banning. Some go to the Resort and have a great time. i stay here and continue my Osho work.

    Love,

    Dhanyam

  143. shantam prem says:

    Anthony, i have only one flat in Popular heights 4J and none in any of the buildings mentioned by you.
    technically Ashram is not that exapnsive, the real estate prices, ren and subsequent cost of living in Pune ha salso increased multifold.
    As ashram is not a Prem Restaurant, being on the side of the heart, i will prefer prices of entry, food, groups etc. to be reduced to half and to increase visitors inflow three times.

  144. Anthony Thompson says:

    shantam. I was once in popular heights. the guy from the laundry downstairs took me there. But i do not remember which. It was in ´99. I was inside someone´s apartment where he lived… could have been you. don´t remember

  145. Anthony Thompson says:

    Fank. I will copy and past what i wrote before in case you did not see it or your girlfriend did not let you:

    +i am your most devoted admirer, after Andreas, of course… but you can´t blame him he is German.
    So you do not do drugs… what a disappointment!
    who are you really? a bold guy in a grey suit?
    I prefer to picture you as a bearded old hippie,… puffing some stuff and writing in your laptop.

  146. frank says:

    a hippie in 2009?
    sounds like youre the one smokin the cabbage,dude….
    i did what you say osho should have done.
    i shaved the beard,got haircut,dis-robed,took the silly hat off ,sold my throne,had some cool tatoos:”enlightenment sucks”on my forehead, “religionless religion”and “democracy”.on my arms.
    cleaned up my act,cut out the drugs.got rid of my dealer.gave myself a name that had nothing to do with the “whole ugly past”.disbanded the circus and made off with a northern girl…….

  147. oshobob says:

    frank,
    good to have you back,
    I once knew a sannyasin girl from Scotland (that’s what she said anyway).
    are they the same kinda personality as from northern England?

  148. Anthony Thompson says:

    wow. Northern girls are some serious thing!
    ok. off to lead my therapy group.
    greetings.
    Please do not start so early tomorrow. I am like 6 hours behind all… so i get late for the discussion. plus I have to teach tomorrow morning…
    anthony

  149. frank says:

    i dont know bob, i cant understand a word they say!

  150. frank says:

    tony,
    and the last tattoo on my ass:

    “welcome to therapy”

  151. Anthony Thompson says:

    that´s the frank I remember!!!

    wake up Kranti… Frank´s back!

  152. Katha says:

    “The master is the last barrier on the path. The love for the master is difficult to drop. One can drop everything — one can renounce the whole world, one can renounce himself — but unless the last thing also is dropped, that small clinging with the master remains the base for your ego. ” OSHO

  153. Kranti says:

    Dhanyam

    Good to hear what you say.. that you are continuing to be sprited irrespective of what is happening around..

  154. Kranti says:

    Hi all

    I woke up expecting the world to be very different.. It is the same.. did i miss out anything?

    Anthony: It is opposite for me.. By the time you have warmed up for the discussion it is late in the night for me .. Back from that stpid four letter work..

    What do you tach anyway?
    :

  155. Kranti says:

    Shantam

    Any reply from Amrito?

    P.S: Man! i am going nuts.. I dont even know what to expect..seriously

  156. shantam prem says:

    Dear Kranti,
    you are quite innocent!
    Amrito is not one of us, the passangers in the “Oshosky inner carrier”, he is a top ranking executive in that airline.
    I remember someone wrote a letter of complaint to Mr. Richard Branson (owner of Virgin brand, basically he is Sir Richard Branson, but other than the Dr. i never mention any titel with any name) about the quality of the food, and he was surprised to receive the prompt reply.
    Osho has always kept his fingers on the public pulse, but when people take some responsibility as a moral duty rather than passion, company goes bankrupt sooner or later.
    SO i don’t expect that Dr. Amrito will write on this form, if he reads our comments and feel the heartbeat, work is done.

  157. shantam prem says:

    PS- Dr.Amrito is one of the five people in Osho movement i have admired from the core of my heart. His love and caring for the Master is legendary.
    Problem is he is paranoid, like a doctor father who loves his child so much and is so afraid that the child should not get any infections so he pumps all kind of vaccinations to fight the imaginary diseases.
    With this mental state that people should not turn Osho into another Church, or temple of worshiping.
    By these kind of thoughts Jayesh and Amrito team has doubted the intelligence of ^His people and also the very teachings of Osho.
    Any way Osho has spoken the art of inner journey in such a simplified language that those who want to create a business around Him are already buying the real estate with the earnings, and for generations to come new priests will be sucking the blood of masses. Priests born out of Osho books are more deadily than the generation before.
    Other than this problem, Amrito and Jayesh are the disciples, any Master could wish to have. Still i feel happy when in the evening meeting by chance i am sitting near them(that evening i snore less!)

  158. Chetna says:

    “Oh Oh. Ma Chetna…. Bring any other name in the context with Osho; Arun or Varun, Inna Meena tina and it is a turn off.”

    Oh Shantam your admiration does not turn me on either!

  159. Kranti says:

    Shantam

    Your last post is more or less what i feel

    I also feel the same when i sit or walk near them as i somehow feel it compensates for the fact that i was not there when Osho was in the body

    I may be immature..But so be it.

    I see a beautiful innocense in the way the Pune Resort is being run..Thats why from the beginning i couldnt find anything wrong there

    Osho would have smiled beautifully with the way Pune resort is being run

    But my point is .. ( I may be totally wrong and even paranoid ).. Is this enough? is there a more bigger things involving verious centres and approaches possible after sorting out these copyright issues and bannings ? So more people can get connected to Osho

    And more importantly there is collective sense of positiveness ( I dont have better word )

    Incidentally just before i wrote this article i came across a Osho quote somewhere .. he talked about making an effort no matter whether it is significant or not.. I am happy that i wrote this..

    Thank you for the Love and Sharing

  160. shantam prem says:

    Hi Chetna,
    About Arun Varun comment, you have already replied on 14th june.
    just a incident of my life for your second comment-
    During 1989-1991 i was just crazily in love with a German Ma, got married with her in my hometown.
    After Osho leaving the body, she wanted me to be part of another osho disciple turned independent, Bhaskar in Freiburg, Germany. She wanted me also to be part of a “living master”, naturally relation went down the drain and i came back to Poona.
    in nutshell, when some guru entered, i could not turn her On, but than it was someone else….

  161. Kranti says:

    Mm. You were 26 years old in 1989.

    Such a lucky guy.. At the age of 26 being with Osho and madly in Love and Living the life Osho teaches… mm..Too beautiful.

  162. frank says:

    what?
    having his balls ripped off by a german bird who dumped him for a dodgy sannyasin retired E dealer who was pretending to be enlightened?

  163. frank says:

    maybe that is a surefire route to “enlightenment”.
    who knows?

  164. Kranti says:

    When the going was good.. It would have been beautiful..isn’t it?

    Frank..You dont understand the hardships of being in India and trying to be madly in Love with someone

    The girl will not rip off anything.. the girls brother will do that job

    I recall one of the questions posed to Osho about this.. someone stating the reality in India..

    Osho replied that he cant go around requesting girls that.. ” please love that X.. poor guy.. ”

    I know that guy also. He was good friend of mine few years back .

  165. Kranti says:

    Shanatm

    May be Sw. Keerthi can pick up from here..

    Whe you say Dr.Amrito will hear the heartbeat i recall that song from one of the Osho Music releases

    It is the heartbeat of the Universe
    It is the hearbeat of the silence..

    It goes like that.. Beautiful song..

  166. Anthony Thompson says:

    I think I came right in the right moment. I am leaving top teach a class soon ( psychology, kranti)
    I want to honor what you say shantam. I quote you:

    “PS- Dr.Amrito is one of the five people in Osho movement i have admired from the core of my heart. His love and caring for the Master is legendary.
    Problem is he is paranoid, like a doctor father who loves his child so much and is so afraid that the child should not get any infections so he pumps all kind of vaccinations to fight the imaginary diseases.
    With this mental state that people should not turn Osho into another Church, or temple of worshiping.
    By these kind of thoughts Jayesh and Amrito team has doubted the intelligence of ^His people and also the very teachings of Osho.”

    If you see any old sannyasin turning into a guruji, wether it is declaring enlightenment or declaring to be ” just a channel”, I would be paranoid too.
    Although, deep down i do notcare much. all I care is to hev this place in pune to go spend some time to renew myself… and for that I feel greatful to whoever is managhing that.

    Kranti… you are the sweetest indian I know… almost diabetical

  167. Kranti says:

    Anthony

    You must give the credit to those guys.. completely behind the running of the Pune resort.. Not sticking their head out anytime for their own sake..

    I honestly think they are true to what they learnt from Osho

    As far as my sweetness is i concerned,. I dont think i am not that sweet .. may be the distance is helping ..good in a way

    I do have lot of enemies.. within my own family..
    But one things they all accept is that i am not one of their type.. although they dont know what it is..haha

  168. Kranti says:

    read as ‘ I dont think i am that sweet .. “

  169. Anthony Thompson says:

    PS- I have already figured out the members of this therapy group:
    Frank is the cynic, sarcastic, who hides from his vulnerability with sense of humor. his issue is his over dominant, castrating girlfriend. Si he takes out his repressed anger as humor in the group.

    Oshobob is frank ´s best friend. aslo his issue is anger, but it comes from deep seated feelings of inferiority

    Andreas has trusting issues. he thinks everybody is basically in osho. he goes to do zazen instead of facing the fear of being betrayed

    Anthony is the one who uses intellect to hide his feelings. His theories are a psychological defense against his own feelings of uncertainty.

    Kranti is the sofly. He is more in touch with his vulnerability than anyone else… and is not afraid to show it. He´ll do anything to be included in the group and be loved by everybody.

    Shantam is the wise guy, the most balanced actually, he is in the group because he thinks he has something to say… not real issues to work through.

    Chetna is the only girl… end all the guys attention. She is just pissed of with so much testosterone. he befriended Kranti because he was more soft… until she discovered Kranti secret sexual intentions.. and now she is even more pissed of.

    Amrito is the youngest, intelligent one, but just too burnt out with work. he has been missing sesions lately.

    there are other guys who come into the group every so often:
    Alok john, heraclitus, Horatio, dhanyam.

    OK. lets have the session started:
    What is happening now?

  170. Chetna says:

    “If you see any old sannyasin turning into a guruji, wether it is declaring enlightenment or declaring to be ” just a channel”, I would be paranoid too”

    Not all will be paranoid, some centred ones will not be bothered at all. (I do not mean myself here). Hence, maybe those boys who run the commune should be a bit more centred (do some meditation, listen to Osho’s discourses), not just count the money!

    But they found another solution-BAN THEM ALL! Act of fear!

    I used to be naive thinking that those who had been with Osho are special by definition! Far from truth! I have not met many, but the distinction between some that I have met is HUGE!

    Another point has never been clear to me! Maybe someone can explain!? The point on mediums etc.

    So here is the situation: Osho allegedly tells Amrito I leave you my dream and Anado will be my medium. He never said it before in his million discourses, only to the private special people! Now Amrito is paranoid with all those claiming being channels to Osho energy, mediums! How does that work? So Anando is ok to be a medium, no the other!?

    And how about Osho’s statement which everyone heard-I will dissolve in my people?!!!! That’s what the ganag cannot control in Pune!!!! All those jewels spread around the world and share Osho fragrance!

    Of course one will get paranoid!

    To see their reasoning is quite hilarious. The last one about saving the trees (no paper waste on magazine). I think they are also trying to save plastic as malas are also not allowed!

    It is so obvious they cannot even agree on one story. Staff is confused what to answer on malas etc.

    I hope one day truth comes. It surely will! Then all paranoia will be finished!

  171. Buddha Prem says:

    Same few people…talking..talking…talking….

  172. Kranti says:

    Anthony

    You are great in your field of study..

    I never thought i am being observed this much

    You got lot of things right except ofcourse for that sexual intentions part.. My god..all i did was post few messages on Osho on the forum

    Ok.. i tried to prove that i am a man not woman..but sexual intentions? Common..

    Today morning were you taking class on Freud.. ?

  173. shantam prem says:

    Anthony,
    If you see any old sannyasin turning into a guruji, wether it is declaring enlightenment or declaring to be ” just a channel”, I would be paranoid too.
    Yes, paranoid and disgusted!
    Yes, Chetna will not like it.
    (May be it is my judgement, sorry in advance)
    As i have read somewhere, she comes from Russia, and right now all the groupleaders, therapy and sannyas givers are foucsed only on the Russian and ex. Soviet market. There they can sell their expired products from Europian Market.

    I know Amrito and Jayesh are doing their best not to create sect, I understand the limitation to use the word Resort, it doesnot sound devotional but more secular.

    And further Anthony has written,
    Although, deep down i do not care much.
    all I care is to have this place in pune to go spend some time to renew myself… and for that I feel greatful to whoever is managhing that.

    I care deep down very much may be because i have invested all my emotional energy and being into like thousands of others who left their cushy jobs for a organisation to create a better human system. Osho also took the pain for this. How easy it would have been for HIm to go on a lecture tour all over the world like His two contemprarories, J and UG.

    And Anthony and my other fellow travelêrs, I may sound balanced and not having a real issue to work with. It is not true.
    To live a life of meaningful exile in Germany is enough an issue and another important one, after 25 years, i wish to pay back to my family by marrying some Indian woman exactly the way Indians do.
    and this is a quite catch 22 situation.

  174. Kranti says:

    Just to add Anthony

    This ‘ in touch with his vulnerability ‘ is something i am greatful to Osho.. Accepting ones limitations and vulnerability without making a big fuss about them.. Although it doesnt mean you dont do anything about it.

    Chetna

    You say ‘ I used to be naive thinking that those who had been with Osho are special by definition! Far from truth! ‘

    I also discovered the same.. I started respecting anyone with a beard and long hair like the guys you see in the old photos.

    When i see someone who have lived with Osho as ordinary as anyone else ( atleast from outside ) few things cross my mind

    Living with a buddha automatically doesnt gurantee you any exalted place under the sun.

    Understand that Osho didnt do any magic on these guys.. Things depended on their receptivity and most of the guys didnt utlize that period with Osho

    And as far as your realization is concerned it depends on your intensity and you can still go a long way without a master..although i will not know at what stage you need a living master and in what way he can help apart from sharing His own silence .

    And because Osho didnt do any magic on these guys it puts ‘ Enlightenment ‘ in the right perspective..Otherwise i would have thought it is something special

    The more you understand these things the more it helps..We relax and look at these concepts like enlightenment or awakening as something Human..nothing superhuman

  175. Chetna says:

    “As i have read somewhere, she comes from Russia, and right now all the groupleaders, therapy and sannyas givers are foucsed only on the Russian and ex. Soviet market. There they can sell their expired products from Europian Market”

    I actually agree with that! Everyone is welcome in Russia/Ukraine, they have been starving for something spiritual. Sadly, I do not think they can distinguish between rubbish and special. At the same time there is freshness and openness there that West has lost long time ago and became boring and stale! I love Russian camps the most! (have lived in UK for over 10 yrs now)

  176. Kranti says:

    My God Shantam

    I dont believe you will take a decision like that

    If you dont get enlightenment so be it..

    but why do you want to commit suicide because of that?

    Onething may happen.. a wife ( Indian Wife ) can speed up your spiritual growth in less than a year

  177. Chetna says:

    Yes, Anthony, Kranti is my number 2 (after Frank. Frank makes me laugh and I find it most important with men in conversations).

    Anthony, explain to me please who said women TALK! Look at this forum, you guys have SO much to say!

  178. Kranti says:

    Shantam

    I totally agree with you on the point of ‘ Caring ‘

    Me too.. I care very deeply any issue related to Osho

    As i repeatedly said Osho ‘s efforts were too big for us to care less and go on our own way..

  179. Kranti says:

    Chetna

    The guys on this forum are not your usual guys

    These are guys with lot of feminine quality..So they talk so much ( My turn with Pshychology ..learned from Anthony )

  180. Andreas Roth says:

    “I hope one day truth comes”. You know the truth, Chetna. It is obvious. Just trust yourself. No need for any “special” authorities of any kind.

  181. Kranti says:

    Swami Chitanya Keerthi

    Dont be silent please.. Keep sharing your thoughts with us. We all have at the core of our heart Osho..

  182. oshobob says:

    Oooooooooooooohshooooooooooooooooh !

  183. Kranti says:

    Came out half way thru White Robe?

  184. oshobob says:

    No, I just think it’s so cool to hold down a letter on the keyboard and let it fly. So easy too. Let’s take advantage of technology while it’s available. And also it fits right in with all the garbled grammar and mangled misspellings on this forum’s posts. These things do not slip by the eyes of Inspector Cleauseauptha, mind you….

  185. frank says:

    tony,
    i dont know how to say this politely,but your psychiatry is even worse than your jokes
    instead of wasting your time giving dubious and dodgy cowboy psychiatric psychic readings to the good people on sannyas news,you could get down to what you`re really good at.
    fact figures and professoring.

    dont you think its time to get an accredited course in “oshology” together?
    complete with exams,degrees etc?

    i will help you compile some of the exam questions…

    eg…
    guru A has 5300 disciples and guru B has 3500 disciples,4700 disciples leave guru A and join guru B because guru A `s meditations are too expensive,how many disciples does guru B have left?

    starting from the number of disciples left with guru A,by what percentage will he have to increase his prices in order to make the same profit as before his disciple left?

    we could do multiple choice….

    what was it that famously,”gave amrito a headache”?

    1. a bottle of gordons gin
    2 a bottle of bombay sapphire gin
    3 some `old monk` rum
    4 old monk chaitanya keerti

    what was it that made amrito famously “paranoid”?
    1 a bottle of gordons gin
    2 a bottle of bombay sapphire gin
    3 some old monk rum
    4 oldmonk chaitanya keerti

    how many buddhas were there,really?
    1. 10000
    2 3500
    3 5300
    4 none

    if you understood osho`s vision,you would…

    1 be enlightened
    2 get laid as fast as possible
    3 get paranoid
    4 get out of town on the next train.

  186. shantam prem says:

    Frank
    More questions, please,

    One is from me
    How many members were there in the inner circle choosen by Osho?

    21
    20
    11
    02

  187. frank says:

    thats easy.
    21

    2+1=3

    answer : 3

  188. Andreas Roth says:

    Oh Anthony, your wisdom and deep psychological insights left me without words. So here are some impressions about me doing zazen instead of facing the fear of being betrayed in your therapy groups…

    http://www.authentic-spirit.net

  189. oshobob says:

    Yeah, I agree with frank, tony, on your “readings”, not withstanding the sometimes useful Gurdjieffian angle of honing in on a person’s supposed “major” psychological trait that you have reprised here.

    It is similar to the technique that tea-shop Madame Ryu uses at her psychic readings — no matter what you say about a person, there will always be some truth to it, and a person can never deny it really. But you could mix and rematch all those core issues and different people that you list, and still come up smelling like roses as a psychological interpreter.

    Actually, what is usually manifest on the surface of a person’s personality (like writings, speech, or even body language) is the outer mask of that person — NOT their deeper core content. That’s what separates the men from the boys, so to speak, in the world of therapy and psychological interpertations. Can you perceive the mask behind the mask behind the mask….? How deep can you dive?

    I think Osho was quite the “master” at this skill.

  190. oshobob says:

    Wow, great photos Andreas! Is that really a picture of you at the bottom there? My major trait at the moment is being highly skeptical of identities and stories.

  191. frank says:

    but really,
    dictatorship will not save the world.

    it may make for a curious story.

    from dhanyam`s view,it reads something like

    “the resort”
    by
    frans kafka

  192. Andreas Roth says:

    oshobob, yes it’s me: that’s where I go to be on my own. For more about our main place see http://www.artedojo.com

  193. oshobob says:

    frank,
    who are the 3 of the inner circle?

  194. Chetna says:

    andreas-amazing! take me with you next time pl!

  195. frank says:

    i dont know,clouseaupath..
    but i bet you they are white caucasian males
    and they all had
    1 opportunity
    2 motive
    3 means…..

  196. Anthony Thompson says:

    ha, ha, I am still your number one fan frank. regarding psychological insight, it is psychology not psychiatry fran… and it was supposed to be funny, not descriptious.

    Great place Andreas. I assume the dude with the square face is you at the bottom?
    oshobob. I correct my psychological report… you are the one with trusting issues.

  197. frank says:

    hey,chetna,you said you loved my sense of humour,and now you are are runnin off with some kraut with a zenstick up his ass,justbecause he`s got a nice pad in the hills and obviously has a few euros stuffed in his pocket.

    ha….women…!!!!

  198. oshobob says:

    right frank, but let’s name names, ok….
    1…deva raj, george meredith, amrito, john andrews…oh shit…that’s 4 already!!

  199. oshobob says:

    hey there Chetna…
    I saw a photo of you on facebook on Kranti’s page, i think, …was that you, wearing a Ruskie fur hat with a commie hammer and sickle badge on it…? You look cute though, ….like Paul Mc. of the Fab Four sang years ago, I wish I was ” back in the US, back in the US, back in the USSR!”

  200. Andreas Roth says:

    Can’t resit a remark on trusting issues and idendities: No wonder oshobob you are wondering. Hiding is not only common in the internet but also a well know game in the sannyas world. Also one of the many ways after the collaps of the ranch to start a new game. Red cloth off, old name on and a long list of new names… I also used a pseudonym when I started to write on rebelliousspirit.com. Before I gave my real name I even discussed with C. Calder about that, he get’s a lot of offensive emails, even today. Anthony somewhere above has written about me “What i sense is a post sheela traumatic effect”. Shure shure boy, but easy, to say something like that, sitting in a cushioned chair playing the professor when the game is over. Do you know how people were threatened, even long after Sheela was gone? Realy disgusting. I mean, some went under cover even for years. Not an internet game, but real stinky reality! Think some of the idiots still owe an apology. But I never heard even a simple sorry.

  201. Anthony Thompson says:

    my lord Andreas who was after you? who threatened you? I have heard this story long enough. did you ever hear about the hit list?
    whoever was behind all this must have been the less effective mafioso in the universe… no one was hit… ever.
    Calder is a nutcase.Paranoid really. You should have seen the mails he wrote to me and I never said anything offensive against him. I was nice just like with you. the guy treated me in the worst possible way… and I do not claim any persecution of former sannyasins, turned anti-osho.

  202. frank says:

    as you ask,andreas.
    i dont know how people were threatened for years after sheela.
    what sort of things do you mean?
    who was doin the threatening,sheela or the new management?
    what sort of stuff?
    kneecapping,or just psychological stuff?
    messages on answering machines etc?

  203. oshobob says:

    looks like the 2 Andros are back in the ring frank, locking horns, whadya think…
    how about a bout tween the whisky swillin’, peanut eatin’ Jayesh “the Mumbai Mick” O’Byrne vs. Swami “Pitbull” Keerti. That would be one I’d like to see…

  204. kranti says:

    lost my home internet connection. Sending this msg frm slow mobile cnectn… Will nt able to post msges…Have fun guys.

  205. frank says:

    oshobob,
    i would worry for that `pitbull`keerti — he is a bit one-dimensional.all that osho-quoting is a bit limited.
    he badly needs a `plan B` if he he is to deal with the ear-biting and below-the-belt stuff that mick has become legendary for.
    but one thing that pitbull definitely has going for him is home advantage……

  206. oshobob says:

    I’ve always wondered about Jayesh.

    Such an odd story it seems.

    He comes in out of the blue, at the end of The Ranch days, and rises to the top of the whole group — the top! In the blink of an eye. And stays there for the next 25 years. Odd. I mean, he’s said to have a little experience turning over new condo deals in Arizona for a profit, but…is that it? Or is there more to the O’Byrne story…Anthony, can you fill us in on any research you’ve done on this?

  207. Anthony Thompson says:

    Bien sure! sir.
    Jayesh, Michael O´byrne, Canadian, Wealthy. Former lover of hasya and Vivek.

    here is his story

    http://www.n0by.de/2/rst/jayesh.htm

  208. oshobob says:

    Thanks Anthony…
    i’ve read that article years ago from the Canadian magazine about Jayesh. Seems to be informative — up to a point. But a lot of stories around Osho seem strange in a way I can’t quite put my finger on. For an organization whose purported task is to raise the consciousness of humanity on this planet, everthing takes on a very covert atmoshpere, as if there are things readily put forth for public consumption, but the real inner workings and dealings are always unknown and hidden. Part of the plan, perhaps….

  209. Anthony Thompson says:

    Part of the plan. specially connected to the time the old man died. Now he is accepted in India, but he died in house arrest. the only reason why the ashram was kept in place was because they bribed the police and authorities. Dyanesh kept that deal going with Mukesh.
    the antagonism was very high. a couple of times they had to stop the bulldosers from flattening the property. and also Tulsa (the fanatic Indian) was leading a tam of fanatics. The government did not issue visas to anyone going to see Osho. many core disciples had to change their sannyas and legal names in the west to be re-entried to India.

  210. shantam prem says:

    Dear Insiders,
    I have one general psychology question, many people in Poona 1 phase and Oregaon time went through vacsetomy, after wards when the dream crashed and many were back in the under populated west, how these people feel about the once for ever contraceptive?
    Even though it is not much, a small collateral damage for chasing a big vision.

  211. frank says:

    yeah,i heard that at one stage they wereonly 24 hours from tulsa,

  212. Andreas Roth says:

    Asked about the new book of Jane Stork (Shanti Bhadra) “Breaking the Spell” Amrit Sadhana in Pune commented to the Indian Express that “Whatever she may have written has no relevance to us. She is writing about Rajneesh and the commune, that part is over and gone. This is Osho and a meditation resort that has a completely different perspective and working pattern”

    To come to terms with so much self delusion is really difficult. Obviously it’s a long, slow, and painful process. My perspective at least has changed drastically during the last 10 years. Maybe because I did not listen to all the repressive nonsens anymore.

    Keerti commented. “She may be repenting now what she had done then and blaming everything on Osho. She may be bitter about being jailed for her misdeeds”.

    Same old ignorant politics.

  213. Anthony Thompson says:

    I would have loved to have a vasectomy … I would have saved a lot in condoms.
    This is one of the policies I agree most with osho. sterilizations. this planet is so overpopulated that to have the courage to say that upfront is admirable for me.
    The idea that it was compulsory is not true. Bhadra a swiss disciple confessed to me that osho suggested she got sterilized when she was 22 and she said NO to him… and that was it. he never insisted again, nor she fell out of grace.

    Any was continuing with the Jayesh story. He was just in change of finances. Stock market and things like that. actually , they lost 13 millions with the Asian crisis.
    the mastermind is Dr.Amrito. He is the epistemological constructor behind de-guruing Osho´s place. he is the one who has developed the whole organizational approach. Jayesh is just taking care of the bucks.

  214. oshobob says:

    frank, I take it you meant 24 hours from Tulsa, Oklahoma, part of the underpopulated west of America — not the Tulsa (sic) that Anthony mentions as the fanatic Indian that led anti-Osho stuff in Pune. That was Acharya ‘Tulsi’, I think, leader of the Terapanth sect of Jains, also a group that is underpopulated –because of their celibacy philosophy.

    Anthony, it seems you’re quite the stud man, you and Horatio, the Alaskan Bull Moose seem to have something in common there — but you could have easily got a vasectomy, you didn’t have to be ordered to do so by Osho. In fact, in General Pinochet’s Chile, I think they performed quite a few radical surgical procedures in his era — most probably never made it into the medical textbooks though…those guys were notorious for bungling a lot of the jobs too, not great bedside manners either, I’ve heard…ouch!!

  215. oshobob says:

    Curious to know where you get your figures Anthony, saying the Commune lost $13 million in the Asian financial crisis. Everyone is aware that the Commune/Resort is extremely tight-lipped about their accounting books and finances. How did an unknown visiting academic researcher like yourself get this highly confidential information? Seems quite odd. Did they open their books up to you just because you seemed like such a nice guy, and they wanted to help you in your research thesis….? Seems unbelievable to me.

  216. Anthony Thompson says:

    About Pinochet you are wrong… on the contrary, he was exhorting people to have patriotic kids.

    I need to clarify a mistake. I got confused. It was not Tulsi or tulsa. It was Vilas Tupe. The Hindu fanatic. Not jaina monk. Sorry guys.
    Regarding vasectomy, The idea of having my” friend” cut was not a brave one for me.
    i am still waiting for my friend Andras Maximilian Roth to tell us how he was threatened and by whom.

  217. Anthony Thompson says:

    Oshobob. I know my ways with people. My research thesis was made years ago and such information is not openly available. But a nice dinner with some friends and people involved in finances… you know.
    It is not official information and they did not open their books to me. I just talked to some people involved. i have a researcher´s mind… even if I am not officially on research.
    I can tell you that 12 years go the monthly electricity bill was around 25.000 dollars a month. Did I see the bill? NO. I was told by the head person in commune care.

  218. Anthony Thompson says:

    …But again. it is not like. hello, My name is Anthony Thompson and i am doing a research , would you tell me…
    But when you have been ten times in the place, people who work in the areas I give you the information, tend to speak about their things.
    i am just a very curious person and i ask those things… and people talk. It is not a closed hermetic society. if you come as someone interested in that information, for whatever reasons, they will not tell you, but as part of the atmosphere everything is more or less open.
    I collect data. iocan tell you last winter there were an average of 300 people doing kundalini everyday. how do I know. A friend of mine was in charged of counting the shoe pairs in the shoe rack… see …it is like that.

  219. shantam prem says:

    Andreas, thanks for mentioning Bhadra’s book. It seems it is the new one in the market. This book and another book By Mahesh Bhatt about the last days of UG, are now in my books wish list.
    I am sure she has written the book from her prospective from her experiences. and also one can presume that she has put some extra salt the way Mahesh bhatt will put some extra honey. This is writers liberty, to cook dry facts in different kind of sauce as per the season.
    I will say without doubt, Osho is one of the Masters who have used even lies as a technique, He has mentioned many times with this kind of examples,” when house is burring and children inside are not aware about the dangers, people can motivate them to jump with any kind of promises rewards etc.
    But it does not mean Osho as a human being did not have his own feet covered with mud.
    Once someone mentioned about J,” The god man with the feet of clay”.
    It is true for everyone.
    At least in our time when we are taking the myths and Omani potent powers away from the realised ones, we must scrutinise the actions and commands of everyone including Osho. with all the limitations and ambitions and manipulations on the part of Osho, Andreas, i wll still say, His contribution for shaking us up in immense. it is like President Clinton becomes more colorful and alive because of His Cigar and Monika babe.
    Stupid mind comes when we put the carpet over the dirt, otherwise dirt is part of life, a very beautiful part.

    PS- Amrit Sadhna, Devendra, etc.. now we must know how few hundred East Indian company employees could rule the country of millions for more than 150 years.
    i seems Nature provides equal opportunies to Dwarfs and Pygmies too, they have their purpose in the scheme of the things. Ego massagers are also needed otherwise what is the fun..

  220. shantam prem says:

    Anthony, our facts collector,
    Please,Enlightend us about the over all running exapnses of the resort. Is the money generated from entry tickets, restaurants and groups, royality on the books etc. is enough?
    How much private funds Jayesh pumps into to fullfill His Masters dream?
    Do someone of us has left a legacy behind for resort as a homage to the Master, the way people do for their churches, temples, NGO’s, universities.

  221. Kranti says:

    You guys are full of information.. Advantage of being there LIVE and having all kinds of connections and experiences..I am really enjoying whatever you guys are sharing. Thanks for so much info.

    Shantam: I totally agree with you

    ” with all the limitations and ambitions and manipulations on the part of Osho, Andreas, i wll still say, His contribution for shaking us up in immense. it is like President Clinton becomes more colorful and alive because of His Cigar and Monika babe ”

    Thats exactly what i also feel.. although i may not be aware of the limitations & manipulations stories since i was not there .I am late joiner and I tend to be biased on the side of ‘ His contribution’..

    May be it is a blessing in disguise for me.. It helps me to focus only on ‘ His Contribution ‘

    Osho adds Colourfulness & Life to ‘Clintons’ & ‘ Shantams’ & ‘Anthonys ‘ & ‘ Andreas ‘ & ‘ Krantis ‘ and sort of gives humaness to everything & everyone.. takes away conceptual / idealogical stupidities from our mind andallows us to Live life more naturally

  222. Kranti says:

    Guys .. I have a request

    Trust you guys will understand ..

    Can we ask editors to open a new link for general sharing apart from speficic topics.

    Or is there one already?

    I felt any title with specific issue should be left open for others to join and express.. because we got diverted from the main topic no one will join newly .. It will look like the main topic has died off

    ( Hope you guys will not hit me back badly )

  223. frank says:

    andreas,
    right.

    the snake that cannot slough off his skin,perishes.
    likewise spirits that cannot change their opinions cease to be spirits

    –neitzche

    the man who never alters his opinion is like stagnant water,and breeds reptiles of the mind

    –william blake

  224. Kranti says:

    Frank

    How many times we have changed our opinions in life?

  225. Andreas Roth says:

    Before I went to sleep last night I went to see the latest posts and read “I would have loved to have a vasectomy” by Anthony. Then went to bed, thinking that I should drop this once and for all. Time is so precious.

    At the time when osho propagated vasectomy Mrs. Gandhi had a program running in India to conduct mass vasectomies. But they soon gave up because it became a nightmare, individually as well as politically. The only thing (besides some virus or disease) which has a significant impact to stop overpopulation is education. In Germany population is shrinking since decades and hence it even become a country of immigration. Side effect is, that nationalistic ideas are on the descend and global spirit is rising. Also institutions like the european union are helpfull and an important project to overcome war and nationalism, to create welfare and eduction for nearly everyone. It is a great achievement to practically overcome uneductaed nationalism and egoistic interest in favour of freedom and welfare. It has much more impact than these irrelevant and outdated “solutions” of osho. The collaps of Rajneeshpuram at least saved the world from these silly ideas. And to propagte that nonsens even today speaks it’s own tongue.

    I never have kept any record. Somehow what Mr. egghead is asking (I am exaggerate on purpose), is like telling someone who was in a concentration camp to produce a notarization of it. As many others I had everything on stake (also money) and found that osho just did not care at all about “his people”. They were just part and parcel of his show. And it did not stop with Sheelas escape. When Sheela was replaced by Hasya, I hoped for a change as Hasya seemed more educated. But soon I had to realize, that most of her statements made not much of a difference. Why? Because she had the same “advisor” as Sheela! Style, tone and totalitarian language of these defamations were just showing to the world that they had lost their grip on reality and were overrating their own importance to the world completely. We are not primarily talking about physical violence, but about pschological violance. For e.g. what is all this banning? It is a way to injure people! To question their integrity, their lives, their social relationships. And all in the name of “love” and understanding. The paranoia went on until oshos death because he was paranoid. His use of drugs intensifed it. For example I don’t think he was poisoned. I have no prove, but that’s very unlikely to me in the overall picture. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs concerning a perceived threat towards oneself and conspiracy theory. A paranoid person perceives himself as central figurs in an experienced scenario which may be either dangerous (persecutory) or self-exalting (grandiose). Paranoid persons interprets events which have no reference to them in reality as directed at or about them. Osho clearly transmitted his paranoia to his disciples. In his last days his paranoia even became visible in public. After his death the situation relaxed, but still after 20 years it is in the air on many levels. I could dictate at least three books with all kinds of very strange stories. Tons of stories about my time in Poona, Oregon and in communes. But no need. The internet is packed with intimate reports already. And there are more books to come and more disappointments ahead for shure. Anthony, you are having quiet something on stake too, but it is extremly hard for you to let go, because you dared to dirty your hands. You are able to create a dogmatically clean image to yourself, so no one is able to question your save haven. Here are two links where you can see Jane Stork (Shanti Bhadra) in an interview. Seems the arrest helped to sober her up. She looks clear and honest to me. Not whitewashing herself. No illusory images. She understands what she has done and is far from just blaming others. If I had too choose who’s more convincing to me an Anthony or a Jane Stork, it was Jane Stork.


    The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.


    The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

    I know, except for a few newcomers maybe, my statements here will not make any difference. But lies and illusions have to be supported by ever more and more lies and finally collapse. So we will see…

  226. Anthony Thompson says:

    Andreas. It is not the same to say that someone has not been permitted entrance to the ashram, something I disagree with, than saying that people´s lives have been threatened.
    I am sure you can see the difference.
    I have spoken to many people who ere expelled from the movement at different times, but to say that it meant threats it is another matter altogether.
    The only cases I have of reported organizational harassment were to the people of antelope and deeksha´s fear before she went underground. In both cases it was under sheela´s regime. Hasya or Anando my have been vocal against people who had left the movement, but to threat or harass people is something different.
    Deeksha´s fear was related, the way a friend of her, Nirmala, told me, to the fact that she knew that Sheela has opened a bank account in switzerland under her own name, supposedly to put some money aside for osho… in any case.
    Now individual sannysins might have gotten pissed of and say naughty things to someone, the way Calder did to me, but that is something concerning individuals.

    regarding ” my loving” a vasectomy… it was a joke… do you know anyone who ” loves” this kind of things? come on!
    I agree that research shown that education and employment on women´s part, is the most significant factor related to population decrease. exactly because they decide to take care of their reproducing functions, weather it is using condoms, the pill or sterilization altogether.

    Shantam 1995 i did a report called “Program visitation”, as part of an investigation of the place finances, related to being an Adult education center. If i find it , i´ll show it to you.

  227. Kranti says:

    So we leave everything in the hands of a government run by politicians who are very mature , who dont have any pshychological problems and who are not paranoid?

    Why Mrs. gandhi fail then if she is doing such a great service to humanity? Atleast to India?

    And Osho always insisted that if therre is no discease there is no need for medication

    If there is no mental illness and everyone is sane there is no need for meditation

    If your so called good politicians have taken care of people then Osho would not have to go through so much trouble giving a medicine

    The crimes Osho did were

    Trying to create a big experiment in conciousness by working with a smaller group of people and keep finetuning His approach keeping in mind ‘ His people ‘ and in that process not looking like a sane and consistent teacher to outsiders

    Trying to provoke large scale population by speaking against social conditionings which are created and maintained by your so called Wise and Holy Politicians who in their Heart has people’ welfare.

    Deconstructing His own image to stop people from creating a religion aroound Him rather than sitting in cave like any other Indian guru has done for 1000s of years and raising the hand and blessing if someone crosses by.. Neither trying to contradict himself nor stopping people from worshipping him..

    At the last moment budging to the disciples request to continue having an organization to spread His vision

    And getting blamed 20 years after he left His body for all the stupidities few disciples did..

    And Shanti Bhadra’s was in coma for 20 years or she kept finetuning the laguage she needs to use in her book or video?

    Here we are jumping on Osho with the help of one calder or one Shanthi Bhdra as these re ver sane and not so paranoid human beings

    They sound truer to you because what they say goes well with what you want to believe..

  228. Kranti says:

    And when an individual struggling with all the conditionings and suppressions of the society wants relife and attends Dynamic Meditation to throw the junk out and becomes little more saner, we call those ideas Outdated and Useless Solutions by Osho and compare those solutions with all the Great solutions introduced to mankind by Politicians.

  229. Anthony Thompson says:

    Andras. would you be so kind to elaborate on what you mean By.. I quote you. “·Anthony, you are having quiet something on stake too, but it is extremly hard for you to let go, because you dared to dirty your hands. You are able to create a dogmatically clean image to yourself, so no one is able to question your save haven.”
    What save( sic) heaven are you talking about. where have i dirtied my hands?.
    what do i have at stake?
    I have shared my opinions, what people have told me, my criticism of the resort and Osho… what are you talking about.?
    This is not black and white as you want to portrait it. I am not defending anything, except my own understanding.

  230. Anthony Thompson says:

    Andreas… one last thing… i sent you a mail.

  231. Anthony Thompson says:

    You know what guys… i got fed up with all this discussing and fighting… it hurts.
    I liked it better when we ere all friends..exchanging raps and haykus.
    I take away my professor trip.
    so far I have always loved discussing… but now I am fed up.
    Andreas, Frank, oshobob, Kranti, chetna, and the rest… thank you for sharing this trip.
    I´ll come back for the raps and haykus… it hurts to be discussing all the time.
    greetings
    anthony

  232. Kranti says:

    Thats why i requested for general sharing article also..No one accepted explicitly so far

    There is time for serious sharing and time for fun

    It is alright Anthony.. We dont have to get fed up this quickly with all the bacground in meditation ..few serious postings doesnt mean the friendship will not be there

    Anyways it was wonderful sharing witn you guys

    looking forward to the next trip..

  233. oshobob says:

    looks like Twoton Tony is getting worn down by Rockythustra,… he’s faltering, he dazed….just want’s to lay down some haikus and raps, he says, be friendly …tired of the fight, the 60 Something class just won’t be the same though, if the Chilean goes down, reduced to some pathetic shadow of his former self, penning poems in his waning years from some dingy apartment in Santiago….c’mon Tony, just rest a bit, get your 20 year younger than you German girlfriend to rejuvenate you with some health food and yoga regime…you can make a comeback old man…

  234. Kranti says:

    Hey Oshobob

    I saw some of your posts in OFI

    Your language & style of expression seems to be different there?

  235. oshobob says:

    Well, Kranti, I’m sure it is a bit — different venue, different purpose of the posting section. That Osho Friends International site is created specifically for collecting information and showing support for the copyright/trademark battle between OIF and OFI (an offshoot of Oshoworld, I would assume). The people on the post section are probably mostly Indian, from what I can tell, with not a great handle on the English language — double ententre puns, and culturally saturated western humor would never be understood, and would not be aprropriate in the context of what that site if for either. Do you have some sort of a problem with me using a somewhat altered sytle there?

  236. Kranti says:

    Hey Oshobob

    No way.. No problem.. Just out of sharing i asked

  237. oshobob says:

    Sharing…? What’s your trip Kranti, with all this “sharing” you are always doing?
    Are you the Santa Claus of south India or something?

  238. oshobob says:

    I just re-read that post by Anthony…he’s not just banged up a bit…..he’s throwing in the towel! That’s what it looks like anyway.

    Say it ain’t so TonyZ…

  239. shantam prem says:

    First i was shouting with my full voice on my 14 years old German, naturally Indian father in me was feeling sad to shout in this way, but it was a question of teaching priciples and when i open teh computer, here also my friends are having a tough time….
    Anthony, we are the new ashram! here people are neither banned nor they are allowed to ditch the game, we all seekers will cross the ocean…. We are the Sangha….
    Without mentioning the name, this vacsetomy question; i was hoping the answer from Andreas,,,, Anthony inspite of your intelligence and curiosity, in connection with Osho you have played safe, you have never put all your chips at once…so this resort concept suits you, no disciplehood, no emotional commitment, pay the ticket see the show. Just open a room in all the Sauna or health resorts in the west, and they will be the same like in Poona.
    Andreas and many others, went in the ocean without any safety belt. As he has mentioned in 85 he came back to Germany to start the life from Point Null.
    As i have seen his date of bith on his website, he was 29 at that time. So must have come in contact with Osho in his early twenties., around 77-80, the peak time of Orange movement. And i am sure, people who joined the game this time, many of them( Swamis and Mas) went through the surgery method, Basically nobody even raised the question that world may be over populated but the developed countries have gone under populated. ANy way there were not so many Indians with Osho, i am sure on a proportion level too, it were more the westrns who surrunder their future genes on the search of truth.
    So for this question Andreas is the right person here, he has spoken with more than 200 sannyasins, their gain and pain, acheivement and frustraions, their surrunder and disillusion…. and his personal journey during the trabulant years of Militant form of sannyas developed in the states… seems like everybody was under the influence of some kind of Opium!

  240. frank says:

    poor old anthony.
    poor old rockythustra.
    nice enough guys,but way too serious.
    can you imagine what the world would be like if everyone wanted to be as right as they do?
    and they are experts in how the world must be run!

    it seems to me serious people always end up with serious problems!!

    i dont know why,but i am reminded of a priest who was to give a sermon in a mental hospital.
    he went up to the pulpit,and started to speak in the customary manner:
    “firstly,let us remember why we are all here”
    a voice came loudly from the back of the chapel:
    :”because we are not all there!”

  241. Anthony Thompson says:

    I am tired of discussing and trying to be smart. I give up… throw the towel you can tell Andreas he wins.
    I just want looove

  242. shantam prem says:

    WIn win Anthony, One gets love, one gives love only when it is win win..
    We with Osho are not for general psychology but psychology of the mature ones…

  243. Kartar says:

    You write something on a balloon about the divisions amongst Osho disciples or OSHO you don’t like, then pop the balloon, and it all goes away. Give it a go. Here’s a pin, pop!

  244. frank says:

    shantam,
    i was also grumpy today.maybe it is an interstellar mood going around or something.
    i think you will find that the rationale for the sterilisations was a `hundredth monkey` thing whereby somehow the understanding would magically permeate thru humanity.
    something similar to the idea of 200 enlightened people will havean effect on the evolution of humanity.
    it was not so much a rational example as of course it was the east and south that needed it (,and still),and not the west so much.
    my opinion now is that its all its all bollocks,but people were reading lobsang rampa,autobiography of a yogi,blavatsky,and bhagwan was telling that hitler was being occultly controled by ashoka`s nine men etc etc
    i thought it was intersting and exciting.it was better than learning bullshit by rote and being beaten in school for laughing in church,which was happening only couple of years before.

    most of the guys i know who had the snip have been ok with it,maybe they were the types to avoidhaving them anyway,but some women got hormonal calls later that could not be answered and these caused regret and pain.
    but no general rule,i think.

    yes people in the 70s were on some kind of `opium`,as you say,and not just sannyasins.
    the whole scene in india and asia,with the overland “hippie trail”,was a mad caravanserai.
    you will hear about admissions to mental hospitals,drug deals,murder,rape etc etc…many times i have seen osho blamed for this but all this was part of the crazy westerners freaking out on freedom.goa,katmandu,delhi,benares etc,you name it,it was the same.
    westerners suddenly found theselves kind of accidentally free,and then the west was still stricter than most people imagine now,it wasnt so easy to be crazy and getaway with it.india was the place to escape to get the 100% hit.
    indian people did not know what was going on,they tolerated,and hippies thought,wow,these guys have got gods with elephant heads,and loads of arms and they are dancing with flowers on them,they must understand what we are about,they are probably on acid,too!
    to hippies,sadhus were the ultimate cool dudes.then bhagwan was giving sannyas to everyone and a free chance to dress and look like them!
    this was the whacked-out loopy background to it all.ok “straighter” westerners came also,and things started to work towards a much more western thing in pune then the ranch.
    but how many people who arived in pune 1 had not taken LSD quite recently? a minority i will say.and a lot of the early “satoris” were acid flashbacks for sure!

    but i laugh with the craziness of people.
    the dream goes wrong.
    the trip goes bad.
    you get a psychotic episode.
    good. get on with it.
    you choose.you choose.
    you could have stayed at home,and dreamed for the rest of your life about going on a trip………

    these guys like calder and rockythustra have an interesting view,and i agree to a fair bit of it,but their fanatical attitude with “must understand” “truth” “delusion”and all the onesidedness, is dull for me.

    and as an extra banana skin,they end up bringing convicted attempted murderers and serial poisoners and pathological liars to back up their arguments,for truth!
    the cosmos always gets the last laugh!

    it was all crazy bullshit,but thats what crazy humans do,all of us
    get used to it!

  245. Kranti says:

    Frank… Superb

    Yo got everything from right perspective

    To me this is the best post in the forum so far…

    ” yes people in the 70s were on some kind of `opium`,as you say,and not just sannyasins.
    the whole scene in india and asia,with the overland “hippie trail”,was a mad caravanserai.
    you will hear about admissions to mental hospitals,drug deals,murder,rape etc etc…many times i have seen osho blamed for this but all this was part of the crazy westerners freaking out on freedom…………………….these guys like calder and rockythustra have an interesting view,and i agree to a fair bit of it,but their fanatical attitude with “must understand” “truth” “delusion”and all the onesidedness, is dull for me.”

    and as an extra banana skin,they end up bringing convicted attempted murderers and serial poisoners and pathological liars to back up their arguments,for truth!
    the cosmos always gets the last laugh!

    it was all crazy bullshit,but thats what crazy humans do,all of us
    get used to it!

  246. Kranti says:

    Oshobobb

    Not sure why you need to target me for using the word Sharing

    As a foolish indian i always tried to be polite..trying to use right kind of words.. no need to get pissed off like that

    Butyou last post helped me to come out of politeness little bit

  247. Kranti says:

    Kartar

    What did you expect in a forum?

    Discuss whatever we want and board a flight and go & take over the running of the Pune resort and Oshoworld and put everything on track???

    A discussion has limitations.. We always knew it is discussion and some understanding will come out of it..

  248. shantam prem says:

    Frank dear, Good morning from cloudy whether in Germany,
    By your last comment you were not playing clown for the class but wrote a niece summary for that time when first time after decades, there was a chance new spiritual movements will complimant the progress of Science.
    Osho did not catch just Hippies but quite a balanced group of academic and professionally qualified people. …
    Now just two decades later, all of these masters have left the stage, for the popcorn sellers to play Guru.
    This is their achievement or the failure, those grandiose dreams..
    21st century, the age of aquarious, Information technology is changing collective humanity faster than any thing else. Technically, all kind of copy rights over the intellecutal and musical material people can clamp over their forheads, andnobody wil ever bother.. Those who want to do it on the first place are blinded by their own desire of control and greed, like the useless executives of music industry, they should look for the job openings at Aldi and co.

    What are the future options for people like us, the misfit people from the school of Osho specially from the affluant societies,and other humans with the fire of longing buring in their heart.

    Agin the feeling is the same, Osho has done more than enough as a single human being. whether His organisation is doing the justice to the work and also to the people who were the very backbone of His work….

  249. shantam prem says:

    Just seen the you tubes videos of Jane Stork!
    I hop eone da yshe feels thankful for the experiences she went through because of her Bhagwan (Osho).
    MAy be one day she sees the blessing in disguise too.
    Without these epxperiences she will look as intelligently DUMB as the interview taker and the news readers.
    People who loose their fingers and also life some time up in the Himalyan range before the touch the summit point are still on a better platform than those who simply read the travelers guides, without moving a bit into the danger zone.

  250. Kranti says:

    Beautiful..

    With Love
    Kranti

  251. Kranti says:

    Shantam called me 30 minuts back..

    It made my day..

    With Hope in the Air and Silence in the Heart and with Love for Osho , i am signing off from this particular article..

    Thank you ..

  252. Andreas Roth says:

    Frank you said:

    “they (Calder and me) end up bringing convicted attempted murderers and serial poisoners and pathological liars to back up their arguments,for truth!”

    Frank! This statement was really ugly!

    This is about compassion!

    You obviously think, what happened to Sheela or Jane Stork or others never ever might happen to you. I reference many people who were involved. But I emphasize respect for those like Satya Bharti or Jane Stork, because they made a long and ardous journey and had the guts to come out with vulnerability, their real feelings and dropped their childish arrogance. Sheela for example does not have the guts. She went only half way and is in kind of a limbo. I do not reference them because they are criminals or not criminals, but because of the humaneness and the insight which they gained through a painfull process. They earn a lot of condemnation from sanyassins, just read the comments. But to me they earn every respect. It is much deeper than any of your cynicism. Your little love affair troubles are just a very soft touch of what happened to some of these people. And they have turned out as mature persons. That is why I reference them. On contrast I am very very critical about those who have not gone through this process yet and still repress. They are the stupids which always have a quick tongue and judgement. I hope you have the guts, the integrity and the intelligence to take back that sentence of yours as to me it destroys all of your witty comments.

    Andreas

  253. frank says:

    andreas,
    you are right
    i apologise.
    what i should have said was:
    and then andreas brought in an australian tv clip on youtube of an interview with convicted attempted murderer and serial poisoner to back up his arguments for truth.

  254. Chetna says:

    Andreas you seem to be very bitter and I don’t quite know what happened in your life to be so disappointed with Osho and his work.

    I am grateful to all people who are not afraid to reveal their truth, whatever it is. I hope I do not sound judgmental (and it is easy for me, I have not been a part in that mess), but I have heard other stories where love for Osho has grown even more out of their pain and life situations.

    Let’s take for example Laxmi…I have heard that after she was thrown out from the US she was selling puri in Dheli stations with stomach cancer. Apparently she was in hell, and yet she was full of love and devotion for the master and knew it was part of her growth. Anthony mentioned the same, but I don’t think he saw her as late as the story I have heard.

    How about others being in prison, thrown out of their homes and being the only one in the hindu society with the sex guru in 60s and 70s? And still their love for Osho has been growing.

    What is there in life to loose Andreas? Few bucks? How about Osho? He lost nothing??? The way we have treated him in this planet!!!!!

    Some people are greatful till the rest of their lives to just have a glimpse of Osho and others just remember money losses and some broken illusions!

  255. Andreas Roth says:

    All right frank. Goodbye.

  256. frank says:

    rockythustra,after wearing down twoton tony in his last bout causing the hapless chilean to throw in the towel in the fifteenth,with a repetitive seies of jabs to the head, was full of confidence for his next bout with frank “the cynic” london.
    too much confidence,even arrogance,some would say,as it turned out.
    he was floored after just two minutes by a classic sucker punch from the cockney cynic.
    he was down on the canvas faster than you could say:”serial poisoner”
    so it was “goodbye” to the bavarian bruiser,whose brusque attitude terrified oshologists for so long,but will probably be remembered as little more than a flat track bully,who just rode his luck just a bit too long and should have quit when he was ahead…..

  257. shantam prem says:

    Chetna, yours is the first post in this thread, which brought moisture in my eyes.
    Since Pune 2 phase i am part of Osho movement and watched the history of human jealousy, power trip and the infant desire to please the father and in the process to put the hand on weeker sibling’s mouth. This was the same norm in Oregaon, this is the same after His death or leaving the body.
    Osho created a space to bring everything out, His Ashram was the LIve laboratory of human growth and our meanness also came out with this.
    Somehow people who were closest to him were the people who took Him for granted and in the process were unable to transform their baisc instincts into a compassionate level.
    When after Osho, suddenly Punja ji sufaced in Lucknow India, the first people who went to him were few of the people who were part of Osho’s staff for years.
    For our weekness Osho must not have a blame of any kind. He never promised that just by sitting around him miracles will happen though His presence can trigger a process.
    few years before i have gone to meet Sheela at her Old people’s home in Rheinfelden Basel. I wanted to look her life from the prospective of behaviral astrology.
    Wheni have asked her who has to be blamed maximum for the destruction of a nice experiment, her answer was something,” Groups around “Bhagwan”, who were trying their best to impress him and in the porcess demeaning the others”.
    I did not have the desire to meet her again as neither she was looking beautiful nor repentence of any kind. She is still living a life of a queen, In a big hall around 10to 15 very sick pateints are lying and she has her table amogst them. These people really are cared in a Bhagwan’s way, she hugs them and give them a Home but there is nobody around to challange her authority.
    Andreas, i will sure read the book of Bhadra. I am reading since 84 not just Osho and disciples but the other versions too.
    I love Osho but will accept too that he was a human being too who had all the possiblity to get infected by the forces of gravitation,
    But this 9.57 minute interview is not quite impressive, just one sided prejudiced view, When interviewer gets her affirmation that he has seen Osho’s clipings at you tube. they look all empty nothing new about them and she says yes, Bhagwan was a good story teller etc.
    When gays and lesbians create their children out of their love making, that will be the new thing till than it is all repitition though few people do it in a quite impressive way.

  258. oshobob says:

    A very interesting historical overview by frank up above there in his post…

    The first thing that comes to my mind is a statement by Sannyasnews editor Parmartha a month ago in the thread on Swami Paritosh’s death (co-founder of this website, it says), where Parmartha mentions that “Pari” tended to view the world of sannyas through his own personal (‘acid-smoked’ in Pari’s case) glasses, though not judging that fact one way or another. It would seem everyone does the same, to some degree. Only natural. But, frank seems a lot like Pari in this tendency, viewing the 70′s sannyas scene in India as an group extension of his own particular perceptions and life. And maybe it was, I don’t know — I wasn’t there.

    Though agreeing with the bulk of frank’s article, I would have to take him to task on the sterilization subject. He paints it as a some device that was used by Osho to lay down a global example for the necessity of reducing the world’s population. I think that’s a real stretch. Looks to me like Osho’s tactic was much more mundane and practical — he didn’t want his disciples to have kids, because kids take up a lot of time and energy to raise, and Osho needed that time and energy of his people to create a sannyas movement. I mean, raising kids is a full time job, and so is creating a meditation commune — money, labor time, attention to daily tasks, traveling around, etc. If his sannyasins had children at the normal rate of youth in their 20′s would, with the reality of casual sex happening, you would have seen maybe a couple of hundred people sitting at the master’s feet in discourse, not a couple of thousand. The rest would have been home changing diapers, and taking their kids to school and the doctor. It was a generation of sannyasin martyrs, a least in terms of forestalling parenthood for something they were convinced (by Osho to a large degree) was of greater importance, for themselves and the world at large.

    By the way, on this same subject, while the sannyasins in India and the Ranch were practicing a no-child policy at the behest of the old man, something similar and much larger was happening concomitantly in another part of the world — mainland China, with massive repercussions to this day. In 1979, China initiated the One-Child Policy for its people. That was exactly 30 years ago, which is basically one generation. As China has always been a people producing country, always with the greatest population in the world, this was one of the most radical government designed (and enforced) policies ever on this planet. It is estimated that the current demographics of China, and the world, have been altered to the tune of aprroximately 400 million LESS people alive now because of that one-child policy. Compared to the few thousand less Brits, Italians, Germans, American, and Japanese that resulted from Osho’s sterilizaition edict — well, …I think you can see the difference. But sannyasins being sannyasins, they are always just looking at their own little world. It was China and the PRC communist government that in actuality carried out Osho’s views on population reduction. On a massive scale. But, unfortuanately, most people are blind to what goes on in China — in the sannyas world it’s always “The West” and India, it seems. That’s becoming very old-fashioned it looks to me. In fact India went the other way, not listening to Osho at all, increased it’s population from 400 million in the 60′s to doubling it to over 1 billion now. India never listened to Osho, then or now, irregardless of any past or current propaganda Oshoites dish out to the contrary.

    But people for some reason want to ignore China. That’s a big mistake. In fact, I think the most important thread here on Sannyasnews so far was the article back a few months ago on Ma Pankaja’s and Ma Veena’s trip to Song Mt. in China. I think there was 1 (count that, one!) post reply to that article! It did not generate any interest — because almost no one knows anything about China, and there is no controversy — the ingredient that generates posts.

    But I would say, China is the Big Ticket in the future of Osho’s sannyas movement — it will leave “The West” and India far behind — in the dust. Osho once said that he was surrounding himself by British people, because they were the conservative base (Taoist) that would lead to the expansion of his work in America (Zen). Maybe that prediction will bear fruit.

    But China is not America, you say. Whazzup oshobob….? Well, maybe America and China are not so far separate as you might think. The penultimate Western society and the penultimate Eastern society — that is really a story that you should live to watch unfold.

    Don’t blink boys.

  259. Kranti says:

    Just read this from Krishna Prem’s website..

    ” Osho was quick to point out to me that Osho is the first and last Osho, that Jesus Christ is the first and last Christian. And it is my job to be the first and last Krishna Prem. And so, that brings me to the point, that just as it’s my job to be the first and last Krishna Prem, so it’s your job to be the first and last YOU!

    See, at the end of the day, it’s not about the master at all, it’s about you! The master isn’t the place where you put down your bags, he’s the signpost along the way, the finger pointing to the moon “

  260. oshobob says:

    Kranti,
    uh…thanks for “sharing” that with us, but…

    Osho was not the first and last Osho….there were over 15,000 thousand before him, and many, including oshobob, Osho Shailendra, Osho Siddhartha, Osho Priya, and more after him, with more to come….

    Jesus Christ, according to the “great one”, was not a Christian at all, much less the first one, and there have millions and millions after him…

    and as to Krishna Prem — I take it this is the Amercian Jew K.P. Mogul who has the G.U.R.U website, he’s not the first and last Krishna Prem, I think there was even a more well known one, in the commune Media Dept., an Aussie who died recently, what about that guy….he had to be either before or after the Jew GURU guy….

    and who the hell is he anyway to tell us what our JOB is here — just like a bossy Jew, always counseling the rest of the world, without their consent…

    and to end, that “finger pointing to the moon” is such a time worn cliche, you’de think he could think of something more original and contemporary– like “finger pointing to the LCD screen on your computer” or something else…

    and also, Kranti, I thought you were done here with this thread, you said above, “goodbye”, and now you’re here back again “sharing” some more Copy and Paste B.S., from a guy that, from what it looks like, doesn’t know his ass from a hole in the ground.

  261. Kranti says:

    I just liked that part from his website..So i posted it.

    Why are getting upset so much Oshobob..

    What crime he did in sharing these it i his website

    We also share so many of our thoughts here

    And i honestly dont know what you keep saying as ‘original’ ..

    think you are the reincarnation of Adam..thinking whatever you think is original and whatever others do is copy paste & not original

    Common oshobob.. You know you have been acting as the big bully here

    Frank has good balance between good humur and perspective

    Anthony is honest in sharing what he knows

    Shantam , Chetna and myself are bit heart oriented and keeps leaning towards Osho

    And Andreas is consistent in his views

    But you are all over the place.. No knowing what you are sharing , why yu are reacting etc

    Yes i signed off. On seeing some beautiful posts from Chetna and Shantam i posted that last one

    Anyway i didnt enter into an agreement with you that i will not post anymore

    Come out of your Big Bullying tactics

  262. Kranti says:

    And just because it is a open forum you dont have use such a bad language… It says something about you..nothing about the people you are commenting about..

  263. oshobob says:

    Really Kranti my main gripe against you is that you said you had a “big moustache,” but looking at your photo on facebook, it’s obviously not very big after all.

    I mean, not like Gurdjieff. That was a ‘stachio that you could walk into a Turkmenistan coffee house with, and hold your head high. Central Asian style — you could sit down with like-minded men and blow a little hookah, eat some lamb shiskabobs, and basically hang out in that atmosphere with a solid foundation…

    And then there was Karl Marx — now there’s a real Jew’s Jew. He had a man’s beard, a big-ass moustache, and he had created a global social/political system that captivated the world for over 150 years. Now that’s a man with a ‘stache, and a plan too.

    Then there’s Osho himself — big beard, big ‘stache. White too. He god damned LOOKED like a guru is supposed to look. That carried him a long way with the Poona 1 hippy boys (and girls) from the Euro overland pot-head, acid dropping group that frank was talking about. Just think if Osho was clean shaven like …uh..Tony Blair, or something — everyone would have laughed and went back to Europe…

    Now your moustache, Kranti, looks more like an Indian railway clerks thing, well maybe just a little bigger, but…it looks like the David Niven style almost, that pencil thin excuse for a real statement that you should be trying to make, I would think….

    I could go on, but I’ve got a lot of things to do…..

  264. Kranti says:

    Ok.. I accept you are bullying me all the time because of my moustache… I may not get enlightened..i may live with few satories..

  265. Anthony Thompson says:

    This is exactly the reason i do not want to post here anymore…
    i am into love now…
    groovie

  266. oshobob says:

    Anthony, you’re back!
    Recreated as the Lovebaba, flashback to the Prof. Leary days maybe, Ram Das with a tie-dyed T-shirt perhaps, hangin’ out at the Fillmore West before a Jefferson Airplane concert, bell-bottoms and patchouli oil smell all over the place….
    good to have you back prof,
    right on, Love child!

  267. Prem says:

    Anthony,

    I know you were joking, but “I would have loved to have a vasectomy … I would have saved a lot in condoms.”

    I had a vasectomy, partly because I hated condoms. Then AIDS. So then back to condoms!!

    I bow to your superior research knowledge but “Bhadra a swiss disciple”: My understanding is that Shanti B is Australian.

    Anyway, to more interesting suff: Last time I was in Poona (2007)
    someone told me that the whole kit and caboodle of the “Resort” is actually owned by a private company (based outside India) which also runs prisons and other establishments. The Resort is just a commercial enterprise to them.

    I’m pretty sure it’s just rumour, but has anyone else heard this story?

  268. Alok john says:

    Re Osho and children,

    My guess is he thought many “Orange” sannyasins were far too damaged psychologically to bring up children well. They would just pass vast amounts of pain on to their children.

  269. shantam prem says:

    In the sleep i thought, the author of new book about the “sect” came to Pune in 1978 at the age of 30, the township built with playing cards regulations collapsed in 1985 and Bhadra with her boss Sheela left the game with bitterness.
    technically she was just 7 yeras there.
    At the age, Catholic woman with 2 children entered sannyas that too incidently and God knows how went so fast in the ashram hirachy, i don’t know whether her boobs were so great to get a seat in the adminstration or she was a plain house wife, Sheela could trust.
    my point is at the age she entered sannyas, Andreas has already left..
    So my request is that Please, Andreas you write in your words, rise and fall of that phase. I trust you will be able to create the balance… you have a good analytical style.

    PS- with all my love for sannyas movement i am curious how the bunch of people could motivate Osho to be part of a project which was illegal from its conception. Bulk of fake marriages for immigration reasons, Seela’s father even wanted to prove that Osho was his adopted son..
    Thousands of people in poona went into the process when someone is snootching someone else girl friend or boy friend, emotional investments were falling like chips in the casino and not even slap was used as a mean…and than in America, guns etc. a kind of militancy, how much it was Bhagwan and how much it was the over enthusastic managers,!
    A true and unbiased report is needed to heal that part of the history.. cover ups look good but i am sure, existance don’t like it.

  270. Andreas Roth says:

    Says Rumi:

    Listen to the reed, how it complains of separation ..

    I said, ‘Thou art harsh’
    ‘Know,’ he replied,
    ‘That I am harsh for good, not from rancor and spite.
    Whoever enters saying, “This I,” I smite him on the brow;
    For this is the shrine of Love, o fool! it is not a sheep cote!
    Rub thine eyes, and behold the image of the heart.’

    Oh! joy for he who has escaped from this world of perfumes and color!
    For beyond these colors and these perfumes, these are other colors in the heart and the soul.

    O you who’ve gone on pilgrimage -
    where are you, where, oh where?
    Here, here is the Beloved!
    Oh come now, come, oh come!
    Your friend, he is your neighbor,
    he is next to your wall -
    You, erring in the desert -
    what air of love is this?
    If you’d see the Beloved’s
    form without any form -
    You are the house, the master,
    You are the Kaaba, you! . . .
    Where is a bunch of roses,
    if you would be this garden?
    Where, one soul’s pearly essence
    when you’re the Sea of God?
    That’s true – and yet your troubles
    may turn to treasures rich -
    How sad that you yourself veil
    the treasure that is yours!

    Come, yet again, come, come.
    My dear hart never think you are better than others.
    Listen to their sorrows with compassion.
    If you want peace, don’t harbor bad thoughts
    do not gossip and don’t teach what you do not know.

    Come, come, whoever you are.
    Wonderer, worshipper, lover of leaving.
    It doesn’t matter.
    Ours is not a caravan of despair.
    Come, even if you have broken your vow
    a thousand times

    This being human is a guest house
    Every morning a new arrival.
    A joy, a depression, a meanness,
    some momentary awareness comes
    as an unexpected visitor.
    Welcome and entertain them all!
    Even if they are a crowd of sorrows,
    who violently sweep your house
    empty of its furniture,
    still treat each guest honourably.
    He may be clearing you out for some new delight.
    The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
    meet them at the door laughing,
    and invite them in.
    Be grateful for whoever comes,
    because each has been sent
    as a guide from beyond.

    Go, rest your head on a pillow, leave me alone;
    leave me ruined, exhausted from the journey of this night,
    writhing in a wave of passion till the dawn.
    Either stay and be forgiving,
    or, if you like, be cruel and leave.
    Flee from me, away from trouble;
    take the path of safety, far from this danger.
    But if you are a man of learning,
    read something classic,
    a history of the human struggle
    and don’t settle for mediocre verse.

    Praise to the emptiness that blanks out existence.
    Existence: This place made from our love for that emptiness!
    Yet somehow comes emptiness, this existence goes.
    Praise to that happening, over and over!
    For years I pulled my own existence out of emptiness.
    Then one swoop, one swing of the arm, that work is over.
    Free of who I was, free of presence, free of dangerous fear, hope, free of mountainous wanting.
    The here-and-now mountain is a tiny piece of a piece of straw blown off into emptiness.
    These words I’m saying so much begin to lose meaning:
    Existence, emptiness, mountain, straw:
    Words and what they try to say swept
    out the window, down the slant of the roof.

  271. frank says:

    blimey!
    old rockythustra has gone all mystical since his sudden retirement from the ring.
    looks like his left brain has been knocked clean out!
    i dont think you will get that history essay out of him now,shantam.

  272. one says:

    think that was more of an answer to you frank. why don’t you just shut up for a while, you are going to be a bore.

  273. frank says:

    nah.he`s punch drunk.
    talking to himself..

  274. one says:

    i am one, you are one, we are all one… but how many idendities do you have frank and which is your real one. mr. roth at least showed his face. heaven forbid I am not your girl friend, I could’t stand your cynicism for a day.

  275. frank says:

    well,swami,i wont ask you out on a date then!

  276. oshobob says:

    Shanti Badra/Jane Stork….

    says she stuck Doc Amrito with a poison syringe to kill him, because she loved Osho so much…

    admits to being part of a plan to murder Charles Turner, the Oregon DA involved in the investigation and prosecution of Rajneeshies for multiple crimes and illegalities…

    is arrested, charged, and convicted by the same US judicial system that has been after Osho and his people for 5 years….

    is let go by that same US judicial system supposedly because she says she’s sorry and has changed her ways, serving less time than people that don’t pay their speeding tickets….

    doc amrito says he’s not concerned with her and the case, it’s over, in the past…

    Stork surfaces again with a book, saying she was bascially brainwashed by Osho, now she’s an upstanding citizen again, loves her supportive family, her society…

    Hey, does all this seem a bit ODD to anyone here?

  277. Andreas Roth says:

    Shantam, I think no single individual is able to do the job you asked me to do. I had to be done by all concerned. What I emphasize all the time is, that atmosphere and understanding of the happenings had to change, because recriminations of all kind are part and parcel of a crude past and can not be overcome by repression. As a first step I’d suggest three simple steps:

    a) There could be something like a open truth committee, comparably to the truth committee which happend in South Africa. That would be quite some encounter I guarantee, you would not need to watch tv anymore. There would be some new drive. To me it is very strange that most of us had some experience of therapy and meditation, but the “movement” is not able to apply it’s own methods to itself to clear up it’s own troubles. Obviously there is great fear.

    b) It is an inherent part of non-democtratic structures, that energy, ideas and change are suppressed and wasted. I’d go for a change here: e.g. vote over internet, participation and cooperation, no banning, transparent structures etc. etc. There are many models possible. Just a bit of phantasy is needed. It could be real fun. If there is a club med, a swimming pool and resort, and if there is no successor and no followers anyway why not vote and discuss as we do here?

    c) Copyrights should be free. This would help a bit to overcome divisions and create an open and friendly atmosphere to newcomers too.

    This way I think some kind of a alive “Rainbow Sannyas International” and laughter could be heard again and might prove some relevance to the world as actions speak louder than words.

    Frank, I remember osho talking about changing sex by operations would be so easy some day that it would be a great way to extend sexual epxerience and thus getting over the whole game. Now, I think he could not foresee the internet, obviously it’s easier here these days as he could imagine. I like to ask you, if you would mind writing to me privately? You find my email address on my homepage. I also would like to see your face somewhere. Do you have a website?

    To oshobob, I am not shure if I read your comment rightly, but seems you are saying that Jane Stork is corrupted by the US government to speak against osho and serve less time? Come on. This kind of conspiracy theories really are humbug. Same kind of paranoia which lead to all the crimes. Also she did not talk about being brainwashed (that’s what the title said), in fact she declined the term in the interview.

  278. shantam prem says:

    Great, finally again we are on the track.
    The chosen extracts from this discussion, i will forward to the Dr. Amrito, Jayesh team. People in authority may listen or may not but right thoughts of today become the agenda of tomorrow. Humanity evolves in this way.

    just minutes before wrote on my facebook page-
    Shantam Astro -Oh Iran, now your time has come to be part of the free democratic world. Stupid priests and fanatic politicians can not keep their hold over your destiny for long any more. Many countries have made them free from the religious bigots. Your Time has come Iran..

    Andreas your suggestions are quite pragmatic…..
    i wish to speak with you in the coming days on the no. given on your web page…

    I hope Frank, anthony, one, dearbob etc. also should let the readers know about their faces. We are not here to hide our identities nor are childish enough like Paris Hilton etc. to bring noses in every soup.

  279. Kranti says:

    In all of your solutions, are you not assuming the larger mass which will get involved or vote has the required maturity to come out with a soluion..if at all there is requirement..

    We are not talking about a political set up for the masses..we are talking about a Vision which can be understood by very few..

    Just because the people who share something in the forum understand something doesnt mean every sannyasin outside will have right meditativeness to participate in the kind of exercise you are talking about

    End of the day Osho worked with smaller group of people in the hope that they would have required meditativeness to keep the vision going..

    I sincerely believe they do have it.. inspite of the few conflcts that is seen

    I dont see any need for large scale involvement of people.. IT WILL BE FREE FOR ALL..and in the end people will use the rights given for personal gains..Whatever POSSIBILITIES left will be ruined

    All we need is the same group of people whom Osho trusted to come together to resolve conflicts and get on with life..

    If they cant do it no one else can do it..

    If they cant keep alive Osho’s dream no one else can precisely because they were so close to Osho and they had the requiste understanding.. Things may not be very smooth now due to differing approaches..But THAT DOESNT MEAN WE CAN THROW OPEN THE DOORS TO EVERY TOM , DICK AND HARRY.. AND SAY.. lets have fun and ruin what is left..

    We cant even get together for few weeks in a forum. We cant expect to take such a large responsibility..You can express your hearbeat.. thats it

  280. oshobob says:

    Andreas, you seem to be such a champion of the democratic systems, and the US system is the peak example of that in the world today. But the judicial system is a big part of that democratic system.

    Just think of the precedent that letting a self-admitted, convicted attempted murderer free in a media saturated society that reports these things to the general public, sets.

    The message it’s sending is this: You can conspire to kill a district attorney in America, whose job it is to prosecute criminals in your law abiding society, and basically be punished for it less than a person who was delinquent on her utility bills would have to pay in the same system.

    What kind of case law is that? What kind of precedent?
    Why are the US tax-payers paying for this bogus system? And if Stork didn’t have a behind closed doors plea bargain with the US gov’t, well, shit, it’s even a much worse story.

    It tells the American citizens that you can make a plan to kill someone in this country, and get away with a slap on the wrist. Not really believable, is it? So surreal, that only in a fantasy movie, or maybe on Sannyasnews would it be able to pass….

    And Andreas, for someone whose website cover is a Zen retreat in Bavaria, C & P’ing an extended quote from a Sufi guy Rumi is pretty odd in itself. Why not some words of wisdom from Zen masters Mazu, Nanquan, Shitou, or Linji? I’m starting to have some serious doubts about your identity too, my good Teutonic square-faced man.

    I’ve got you in Ring #3, I believe, Andy…

    By the way, maybe we could get Ma Sangeet back on this forum for this Rajneeshpuram story that is still unfolding. She was kind enough to contribute to the Osho trademark article, being one of the main lawyers involved with that 10 year case. She was also one of the main lawyers on the Ranch, being the Ciy Attorney of Rajneeshpuram, among other things. I’m sure she would have some first hand insights on all this. Or she may have some qualms about entering this Looney Tunes gathering of characters here. You couldn’t really blame her if she didn’t want to come into this arena of ambiguous arhats. Is this a forum or a freak show?

  281. Andreas Roth says:

    oshobob, the legal system in the US or in Germany is complex and very well thought through. Yet missuse of any system (like Guantanamo) is possible any time, as politics always is about power. The only way to prevent this is check and countercheck. If there was no democracy in the US you would have idiots like Bush for ever and I suppose you were the first one to fight that. Legals sytems have deep historical and philosophical implications, some thousand years of human experiene. Human rights also have taken gestalt from this long and very painful process. Mankind has payed a high price to gain that understanding: millions and millions of people killed, tourtured or their lives destroyed for nothing. I support legal systems over dictatorship for mayn many reasons. The subject is too complex to discuss here to me. One of the problems in Rajneespuram was, that there was no division between “church” and “state” from the very beginning as osho’s style was totalitarian. He thought that totalitarianism was the most effective way. But this proved wrong. And it always did.

    I completely disagree with Kranti. I disagree so completely that I am missing words. You must have grown up in a deeply repressive environment. If you applied your views to children, you would kill them. You views creates slaves and not free man. And how come you know so much about Tom, Dick and Harrry? Everyone is a Buddha.

    I love Rumi and the sufis as much as I love the zen masters. I very well understand Kranti and Shantam and others here. I am all for love!!! But real love is not such a sweet thing!!! As I have explained already the call for surrender to me is criminal and a endless pain in the ass especially if the one you surrender to is no more. So I prefer zen because there is no you, no prayer, not about somebody else. Nothing. But if you really sit, something is happening, which is cool yet warm, compassionate. If you don’t sit, zen is just an idea.

  282. Kranti says:

    It is about awareness Andreas.. We should be aware what is possible and what is not.. This is not a political forum.. the discussion is not about whether democracy is better or totalitarianism is better

    Osho was neither totalitarian nor democratic.. He never believed in any political revolution as solution to mans problem

    He didnt even belive in the need for an organization to spread His message..His people convinced Him for such a set up. he clearly knew it will run into rough weather sooner or later

    Osho has nothing to do with any kind set up.. He was concerned only and only with Individual awakening

    Running an organization to keep alive the vision of a master who has been way ahead of His time and who is not understood by the masses is not a joke.. It is nothing to do with your democratic style and all..

    Yes. everyone is a buddha.. But only in potential..not in actuality.. If everyone had been a buddha in actuality there wouldnt have been a Osho and there wouldnt have been a forum here

    We all grew up in some way or other in a repressive system.. And thats the reason we need Osho.. The differences are only superficial

  283. Kranti says:

    Andreas ,I have respevt for your political knowledge and views.. I learned a lot from you in this forum about thosde aspects..

    Infact when you talk about ‘ the legal system in the US or in Germany is complex and very well thought through’ i felt ‘ …This guy has such a good understanding aout political solutions & set ups…

    But i think , by trying to apply a political solution to spiritual Vision which is concerned with Individuals , we are going off the track.

  284. Kranti says:

    The below is my understanding..It may or may not be correct..

    The Rajneeshpuram was a by product of the Disciples administative Capabilities and Lack of Capabilities.. I dont think It is what Osho wanted for His vision..

    Osho repeatedly used to say we can understand Him through silence..Once he starts using words it is bound to be misinterprested and mis understood..And actions which follow those misinterpretaions will have its lows

    And any commune or organization which his disciples created was largely influenced by their unawreness.

    Given a choice Osho wouldnt have allowed to create Rajnesspuram.. Out of Love for His people he went along wit them in the creation of These Rajneeshpurams and Other Organizational set ups like Inner Circle knowing well what will happen..

  285. shantam prem says:

    Masters and dictators don´t need public opinion. Masters are above the power, dictators are intoxicated by it. Everybody else must follow the system of check and balance.
    Direct democracy as in Switzerland or the American Democray, where president is maximum for 8 years are two most evolved systems upto now. Their progress and their contribution is immense. Few people are always dissatisfied where ever they are, majority of the people have achieved their potentials in a fair and humane society.
    I want to tell Kranti that society is a sum total of more than one person. 2 people and more and one needs a system..
    Osho has given a word Meritocracy, where people reqeust the best of the best to take control of that branch, Like people must request the best doctor to fix the health system etc.
    When he appointed the 21 people as a trustees of His work, it was a democracy plus meritocracy of a kind. It is another fact that first attempt failed..But idea given by Him is still in the air.

  286. shantam prem says:

    Kranti,
    What are your suggestions to make poona ashram(resort) more attractive to people.
    (From People i don’t mean 20.5 million people living in Bombay-Pune belt.)
    why the people who were going to Pune for more than 20-.25 years don’t go there any more.
    Are the long time sannyasins gone crazy that they are throwing all their frustrations on the father figures in the ashram.

  287. Andreas Roth says:

    Shantam, I did not make my suggestion, because I think they would have any impact. Not at all. It was just an answer to you. Do you know what I expect from your letters to the crew in Pune? No answer. Or you might be banned if you tried it twice. Shantam you have quite some experience with the Pune resort it seems and you seem to have dared to open one eye looking at reality again. It is not so terrible, isn’t it? Yet you still think that Osho was a very nice guy, the enlightened guy, above power. But I tell you, he was behind the scene, always. He showed his nice face to the public (he even gave detailed advise how photographs of his face should be taken; cover one side of his face and look, then cover the other side and look again) and was very good at hiding the other side, rationalising his tactics and actions with all kinds of argument and push off responsibilities on others. He was a master of fraud and story telling.

    I very often experienced how people were put down. I remember only once in the midth of crisis in Orgeon when Osho thought about advise. Brett, an analyst for big international companies, was given the task by Osho, to analyse the situation and suggest solutions. I remember well, because that was unique and there were many rumours on the ranch because Osho had instructed Brett himself. Brett suggested some sensitive ideas:

    • Make the organisational structures transparent.
    • Clear taxes.
    • Drive a Lincoln instead of Rolls Royce.
    • Pay bills.

    Some days later Brett was expelled and had to leave the ranch within hours. Even the mala was taken away from him.

    Obedience and yes-saying is not a good climate to creatively solve factual problems. If one loses the appreciation for reality, one fails. Blinding out reality leads to information hiding and corruption. During the 20th century many attempts were made to transform philosophy into reality. Most of these experiments failed completely or even resulted in concentration camps and gulags because they were controled by unquestionable leaders. Osho was talking a lot about freedom, but the fact is, that he commited his disciples up to a degree which only can be called dependency. Therefore, even today, it is extremly difficult for sannyasins to realize and accept that they have spent a great deal of their live with an illusion. It is extremly difficult for them to start talking openly and sincerely about the realities of their lifes. They rather go on building myth and hold on to an illusory image of Osho and of themselves. I know the pleasant feeling. But denial is an awful mistake! It is completely wrong not to talk about these things and to repress or deny them. In the beginning it takes courage. But after the hypnosis is broken, the emotional, mental and factual realities come up. They come up like a flood when the mental dam is broken and reality is there again.

    I read the letter of Maitreya on the next thread, but will not comment. That’s so much nonsens and confusion. I would not know where to start, that’s just too much. See, that’s the result of all the “spitual” humbug. Obviously Maitraya is suffering the consequences of all the hotchpotch he is propagating and believing in. To me he simply should stop it all together. But no way. This will go on and on, and the only way to get rid of it is to ignore it and live freely.

  288. Kranti says:

    Shantam

    I do not consider myself as an expert in running a meditation resort of the kind we are talking about..

    But i also understand truth is simple.. I have only two points to make

    One.. This is a spritual Vision and people who are going there be it 5 years or 25 years are in the process of a inner journey.. From outside it will look like their only aim is to dance their way to elightenment… But you and me and every fellow sannasyn or non-sannyasins who meditate regularly will know how hard it is keep the awareness going in the midst of all struggles in life.

    You need a certain strength and level of awareness to run the Pune Resort.. I am not saying except two or three people there are no other in that category..

    But how do you know? Take a look at Oshodhara.. You may think these guys lived with Osho for so long…

    So rather than trying to think like a outward revolutionary ie.,

    ‘ we need a change ‘ like the way Andreas thinks or ‘
    a revolution has to happen ‘ etc..

    Let us keep feet on the ground and see what is the pragmatic…

    To me the solution has been totally captured in your own statement above

    ” When he appointed the 21 people as a trustees of His work, it was a democracy plus meritocracy of a kind. It is another fact that first attempt failed..But idea given by Him is still in the air.”

    You dont throw everyone and everything out because an attempt looks like it failed..

    Let us go by TRUST.. Let us Trust Osho

    Osho has come up with a people and solution and it has been running fairly beautifully.. You and me and most of the people agree on that..

    I see there are only two issues

    1. Copy rights
    2. Certain actions which seem to be borne out paranoid behaviour..like banning , fear of creating another religion etc

    As far as copyrights are concerned i dont think we can go for free for all.. 10 out of 10 scriptures / teachings from the past have been corrupted beyound recognition..Especially when it comes to Osho who has been controvercial in His time it is even more imperative that His Books and discourses are properly copyrighted and distributed

    If someone wants to have Osho center and a website for Osho.. Let them have it..But the license & links to download site needs to be there from the Trust

    What is the problem in it? Unless they also want to make money out of it and want copyrights on their own..

    When i see someone fighting so much against copyrights i see only a Self Interest and Hidden Agenda.. Again it is my view and may not be correct

    The second is the fear that People will start worshipping Osho and all.. This is something we need to leave in the hands of life..We cant stop people from appraching Osho either thru Head or Heart.. Osho himself has allowed room for every approach.

    The solution here is allow Different Osho centres to exist as long as they are just making available Osho meditations and therapies without diluting it.. But whether i chosse Zazen or Nadabrahma or Heart Meditation is left to me as an individual..

    And by nature of Osho teachings i dont think people can make a religion out of HIm..

    But if someone is using Osho’s name to attract people but they provdie their own products which they developed for making money that needs to be stopped.. Oshdahara is a clear example everything that can go wrong

    So in my view accepting copyrights but agreeing on some licensed distribution and dropping the fear and alowing more room for Heart in Pune resort will be the right solutions..

    With due respect you and Andreas and everyone who has such strong belief in Democarcy, i can only say what we are handling is nothing related to a political solution for the masses..

    Infact the more you grow in awareness you will drop out of the social system ( inwardly ) and you are not going to be part of Society..

    By becomeing aware we are talking about Living and Dying beautifully.. It is nothing to do with Democracy or totalitariansm.. We just cant afford a free for all.. And that is not out of fear.. But out of understanding the Vision with which deal and how delicatly it needs to be handled

    And i also dont think people who are running the resort are being dictatorial and all.. No.. Like you expressed beautifully earlier they are holding tight like a father holding on to a baby , due to the fear of people converting everything into a religions..they need to just loosen up a little.

  289. Kranti says:

    And for Gods sake let us stop referring to Osho like he was a political leader and he had certain Ideals etc..

    He was an elightened master and he didnt have a ‘SELF’ and he couldnt have had any Ideal or political approach.. It would be a big blunder on our part to take that flawed step. everything will go wrong from there

    Infact we got diverted to political solution only because few convinced themselves that Osho was a leader of an organization and he had IDeals etc.

    I see a complete inability and refusal to accept anything like awareness or enlightenment and therein lies all the wrong start..

    And Osho never gave anyone any illusion… He kept beaking all illusions.. If someone has developed an illusion it is not because of Osho..it is inspite of Him

  290. Kranti says:

    The difference is this

    The core of democracy is people elect a set of people to manage the administrative part.. That administration is based on an agenda which is full of compromises.. We take care of this and you take care of that…We will not do that and you dont do that..so that we can co-exist..

    The individual is the COST or the PRICE paid to maintain that Set up

    Osho’s vision is to create space and techniques for people to RECLAIM that individuality..

    And by nature of Osho’s work we cannot use our knowledge on democracy or X system or Y system here .. It is not that those things dont have merits.. They are IRRELEVANT in this context.

    The discussion at hand is about Inner..There is no ‘Other ‘ and consequently there are no compromise techniques and there is no hide and seek game inside.. You cant meditate and play hide and seek game with yourself…

    Well you can..but with its consequences..

    The whole dimension and reality is different..It is not based on relative reality..it is based on ultimate reality

    If someone comes with a path or vision to help people to grow in awareness a certain amount of control and guidance and direction is needed.. because you are esentially dealing with people’ awareness..It will look like authoritarian from outside..

    But that is our interpretaion..not facticity

    You dont throw open the doors of how to use nuclear technology to masses because you know people will misuse them.. And awareness and enlightenment are even more dangerous in the hands of unaware individuals..

    Osho had to keep away people who were unaware…It is nothing to do with authoritarianism

    As long as Osho was in the body it wasnt a problem.
    But once he leaves body people start thinking interms of an organization and how to run that organization etc And we lose sense of the core teaching..Priorities become different.. and we start applying what we know like Democracy and stuff like that on deciding how to run that organization

    Ths is exatcly where a church is created..Pope comes into picture..People who give a solution will take over that church tomorrow…And even before we realize we are neck deep into the same nonsense

    Anyone who thinks interms of running Pune resort by applying the systems and methods used to manage the outer is exactly working against what is required.. With all the good intentions ofcourse..

    As Shantam suggested Osho did come up with a solution which is rooted in awareness.. He created an organism not an organization.. That organism will keep changing and evolving.. We may have a little role to play in that evolution.. Thats where we need to stop..Any effort to go beyond that will convert that organism into an organization.resulting in dead religion

    If we feel the Inner Circle is losing its core character of an organism we need to provide the support that is needed to put things back on track. We cant take thngs in our hands and react like outward revolutionaries

  291. shantam prem says:

    Kranti has written-
    “If we feel the Inner Circle is losing its core character of an organism we need to provide the support that is needed to put things back on track. We cant take things in our hands and react like outward revolutionaries.”
    To sum up this issue my suggestion is very simple-
    This does not require Camp David summit, but something on similar lines.
    Let just four people meet again and sort out the issues in a loving way. These four people have not met since 2000. The links of communication are broken between them. Let this communication get restored.
    These four people in my feelings are-
    Jayesh
    Amrito
    Neelam
    Keerti..

    These four have shown time and again their devotion and dedication towards Osho’s work. These four have heard Osho in their way, and to blend these visions are not difficult or they are as difficult as creating the harmony between body, mind heart and soul.
    I request these four to meet again in Pune. Let Keerti write from this open platform an invitation of meeting. For sure, with in minutes they will laugh again, just after the first customary hug!

    PS- If this summit gets fruitful after first or few meetings, I will request that this discussion group here is nominated for ….Osho Nobel Peace Prize!!!!

  292. shantam prem says:

    Ps-
    Copy to
    “Amrito” , ,

  293. Kranti says:

    Shantam

    I am returning that buddha hall hug which you gave..

    Thats all we need.. Simple…Most beautiful thing

    Sw. Chaitanya Keerthi… Please .. Please.. Please……

  294. Kranti says:

    Sw. Chaitanya Keerthi… Please .. Please.. Please……

  295. Kranti says:

    The four people mentioned above will be ‘selfless’ & ‘egoless’ and because they lived their whole lives with Osho and dedicated their life for becoming empty it is a nothing issue for them to come together and set things right…

  296. oshobob says:

    That’s a good idea, that Nobel Peace Prize idea Shantam…but, we would do something new if we got it … I mean the money — not give it away to charity like Mother Teresa — but split it up between us, fair and square.

  297. shantam prem says:

    it is a thumbs up response from my freinds here.
    We all have done beautiful discussion here with the spirit of friendliness, i hope the names mentioned above will seize the moment.

    Yes, BelovedBob we will split the money. I am sure, i will share somefrom my bouty with the table dance girls too. Never had enough money to indulge in simple things of life!

  298. Kranti says:

    As people who were and are interested in Osho and Sannyas movement we came together and shared our thoughts..

    We strongly feel , the people who were mentioned above could do well by working together rather having split organizations

    We would like to see a thriving neo-sannyas movement again wgich has place for Head and Heart..

    And we also understand the things at stake..copyright issues and financial aspects etc.. This is not just few individuals forming a group and spending time..

    The people here are well informed..

    Most of us feel Love for Osho and His vision

    In short we would like to see Amrito , Neelam and Keerthi going for White Robe together every evening and hugging each other every morning..

    Only and Only that will communicate to the world what is Osho’s vision and how significant it is to the world full of conflicts.

    To me, If people who lived with Osho cant drop their resistance and come together then there is no hope for humanity unless another Osho comes on the scene..

    Because in the last two thousand years no one has single handedly tried to put human ‘EGO’ in its place the way Osho did..

    Heartful Thanks and Love to you all..

  299. Kranti says:

    Sw Chitanya Keerthi

    I am aware i stepping into an area where i may not have rights ..But just out of anxiety and love for Osho i am asking

    Leaving aside what people in this forum discuss and what we understand / dont understand as outsiders , what you think are the possibilities and non-possibilities?

    We would like to have a better understanding of inside of view of things..

    Please take time to tell us

  300. james morrison says:

    Being next to a master has nothing to do with your physical body. These people are no different to priests, Let them go. Let Osho go. The hierarchical tendancys of the human ego are endless. These people have NOTHING to do with osho.
    Stop trying to change the world. Simply be yourself. All masters get lost in the messy hands of those who cling to their names and form. Being yourself may take you very far from osho’s fingers as you travel to the moon.
    Remember, anyone you meet who tells you you need them is a priest with new words and smiles. Don’t be deceived. They will make dancing a course you have to go on. They will make it compulsary to go through their groups and teachers to do osho meditations. AVOID THEM.

  301. Kranti says:

    Good point James..thats the whole game we play..

    Having said that we are concious of what you are saying and try to focus only on the ‘infrastructure’ which needs to be there so that people can try their hand in various meditations and celebrations etc..We are not realy interested in the priests..

    Thats one area we need to thank Osho for not allowing us to get into that trap..

  302. shantam prem says:

    Hi James,
    Nice to see some new person in this discussion board.
    can i know a little bit about you?

    where are you from and have you the first hand experience of the whole circus around Osho or some another ring leader?
    I hope to see you again here, i am sure many will appreciate your comments and presence here.
    love

  303. james morrison says:

    Thank you Kranti and Shantam for your comments.
    My experience is the stages of the ego dropping have to be passed through. So, the ego will make freedom a doctrine. That is why Osho is dangerous because he explains the whole path. Hard to rebel when you’re told to rebel. I have found people attached to the idea of freedom. And creating an idea of being yourself based aroung their own experience. They end up trying to be normal because they equate that with being ordinary. Being ordinary is as indivdual and self expressive as anything else. Being ordinary ends becoming a goal. Other religions leave these as esoteric secrets.
    If you think Osho is right and you think other people should do osho meditations, if you think osho’s meditations are something you own and protect, YOU ARE A PRIEST.
    Please don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing wrong in it. How can there be something wrong in the stages of dropping the ego? But don’t think you’re not straying from the path either.
    thank you for reading

  304. Kranti says:

    James

    Few points..I agree with you on the point that ego has to go thru certain stages of growth.. But it is lot more complex thing to adopt strict process of steps..

    Thats why Osho was working with specifci group of people and his appraoch also chaged over a period keepin in mind their growth

    Having said that a Master will cover the whole path because seekers are at various stages of growth..

    Not everyone is growing at the same speed and maturity..

    As a seeker it is our responsibility to see what stage we are in and use an appropriate approach

    We dont insist somone needs to practice Osho meditations alone.. But Osho himself has given wide range of meditations and understanding to cover all possible seekers

    He has looked into all paths and devised ways to suit contemporary man..

    Ultimately it depends on the seeker to make use of certain teaching

  305. Kranti says:

    Again this particular forum revolves around Osho sannyasins.. So we basically assume you are into the same path..If you are with another master we respect that..But you will end up seeing most of the discussion here revolving around Osho

    But ofcourse you are always welcomed to share your thoughts and other approaches..It will only enrich our understanding also further

  306. shantam prem says:

    That is why Osho is dangerous because he explains the whole path.
    Thanks James for the above sentence. It is very true in a sense and if we see the world suddenly flooded with the neogurus, It is because of Osho discourses, he has explained the whole path in such a simplified language.
    Just mix Osho and J krishnamurti and one has the most exotic cocktail to sell or to enjoy.
    and you wrote,
    the stages of the ego dropping have to be passed through. So, the ego will make freedom a doctrine….
    About these stages and the time frame; This is journey, this is path and still one is not sure whether this fucking thing called Ego is there to drop.
    And just on a basic level, have you been to Pune? What do you think is the contribution of that place in the whole process of ego development and letting it go?

  307. Kranti says:

    Shantam

    You say whether this EGO is there to drop or not

    It is not there as a reality.. The Goose was never In..

  308. shantam prem says:

    It(Ego) is not there as a reality.. The Goose was never In..

    I have read and heard such statements too.

    If something in this direction, becomes my experience, i wll not cry for Poona Ashram, there will be a new foundtaion for the continuety of the liniage, something similar in a sense and something very different.
    As He Says, so much water has flown down the Ganges, so much industrial pollution has entered in a short period of time.

  309. Kranti says:

    You would have already done that..That website link i sent is really useful to put few things related to EGO in the right perspective..

    Osho was very poetic..he never tried explain anything logically because mind will misuse it.. he wanted us to make jump at the right time

    But unfortunately we may need few things to hit us more directly not poetically..

    theendofseeking.net is useful from that angle..

  310. Sw Chitanya Keerthi

    Beloved Kranti
    You wrote:
    (I am aware i stepping into an area where i may not have rights ..But just out of anxiety and love for Osho i am asking. Leaving aside what people in this forum discuss and what we understand / dont understand as outsiders , what you think are the possibilities and non-possibilities?)

    I am not hopeful. Jayesh and Amrito will not bother. They are not into any compromise. And I don’t propose any compromise. But I will always remain open, as I cannot imagine anybody intelligent who is not open to listen. My experience ( anybody may call it assumtion) is that they are very rigid on this topic. To them, it means accomodating others and losing some power.
    Osho has space for everybody as he is as large as ocean, but these 5 OIF members have become a private club or ownership. Even their language has totally changed. They do not address you as Osho sannyasins–only sirs and madams.
    Even though this is the current situation, I will not stop friends like Kranti or Shantam or others to stop such efforts.
    Love to you all with all the warmth and hugs

  311. Kranti says:

    Swami Chaitanya Keerthi

    Your reply was out of love.. I can feel you..

    I am greatful for the heartful response..

    I even wrote to Sadhana in her blog..I just asked a very polite question about what she things about the situation..have not received any response..

    With Love
    Kranti

  312. shantam prem says:

    Just read Keerti’s response at a Liabrary computer..It is beautifully written with economical words but sums up the situation in a right way.

    I can say from my side since Keerti, Neelam and others have been booted out with disgrace from the doors of the ashram, i have not met them what to say about visiting Osho world or Osho Nisarga..

    But as a seeker of truth from the school of Osho it is my duty to see the thing in a right prospective and dare to say, shit to the shit.

    Why why why these things these power games have happened in between Osho’s people.
    World as a large is very happy with these stupid developments, it proves the assumption of the whole world that Osho was just a big mouth, look at his disciples, they are proving monkeys and donkeys.
    More than 99% people care a bit about Osho, they did not like Osho’s attempt to shake their belief system but where we stand…, the people who have listened him, who have meditated with him.
    Times up in th eliabrary…
    Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely,,,,, what a truth in this general statement, and power cares a shit how much you meditated, it is like AIDS, eat all the vitamins and still…

  313. Kranti says:

    Thats what my pain also..

    You see i come across lot of youngsters who have interest in osho and who are ready to explore..But seeing such conflicts they will certainly go back..worse they will end up with a stupid guru who is ready to exploit

    To me Osho is like LIFE INSURANCE protection.. Once you understand him to resonable extent you are guranteed certain level of intelligence and sharpness to live life..But if you get caught with some stupid guru or religious system before that it is difficult to recover..

    If someone is pushed off from taking a step forward towards Osho because of these conflicts and the messages which are going out it will be sad moment..

    Personally i am not expecting any magic ..just a sense of openess

    having said that the discussions in this forum makes me think differently now.. . Afters sometime will people accept and forget these conflicts and get on with connecting to osho in whatever way possible ?

    Are these different approaches and centres add more colour and spice to Osho. Is this for the better..you never know.

  314. Kranti says:

    Swami Chitanya Keerthi

    Few more clarifications. Hope you will not mind telling us

    When we say compromises what do we mean? ..What could possibley be the hurdles here.?.

    Not sure how much you can discuss in a open forum

    Those things are not transparent to the outside world.

    One could have understood easily if it is a big corporate or commercial organization. Here we are talking about a Meditation Center and that too supposed to be that of a very rebellious Masters who put everyone’s ego in place during his time..

    Thats the reason no one seems to understand what is the core conflict interms of what need to implemented from your point of view and what cannot be implemented from Pune team point of view..

    We clearly understand from your posts that you are not asking for anything like Devotion / Worship based systems.. You were too close to Osho and you will not have those ideas..We all can understand.

    Apart from that what possible Heart vs Head conflicts that can exist?

  315. Beloved Kranti
    Compromise means We decide and others just follow it whatever we decide…no room for discussion.
    It has been the way since the begining. When Devendra was inducted in the Inner Circle, he told somebody about his role, it was only one point: “To support the Chairman.” He could not have or express any free opinion. Things will be dcecided by the Chairman and others have to say yes, otherwise they cannot be part of IC.

    I had also heard that this being Chairman will be only for 2 years, and every 2 years there will be a new chairman. This has not happened in 20 years. They talk tirelessly about Change but they can never change the Chairman. Actually there are no 21 people left to change the Chairman–only the handful handpicked by the chairman who do not have any spine or individuality of their own. 5 men of head only and no woman of heart amongst them–this is what OIF is.
    This total control of head, this iron grip is not healthy.This is not alive or vibrant as Organism is supposed to be. This is deadly organisation which is not sensitive towards Osho lovers. This is actually criminal to continue against the wishes of the master.
    And they don’t treat Osho as their master or Buddha, just a brand like Coca-Cola, a trademark for commercial use. That’s why no sannyas, no mala, and meditation methods as trade only. One quote you use without their permission and legal notice will be coming…just one sms of Osho quote on mobile to people is enough to attract a legal notice. This is what they have been doing. And daily this is on increase–this power game.
    What compromise?

  316. Kranti says:

    Swami Chitanya Keerthi

    I am listening to you with openess and sensitivity

    I am immensely sad.. I want to be very honest here and I dont have words to describe my sadness..I need to be more meditative now to handle what you have told..

    This is the last thing we wanted ..The organism created in Osho’s vision becoming an organization..

    With Love
    Kranti

  317. Kranti says:

    The more i read the more my heart sinks…

  318. Kranti says:

    No change in chairmanship ( ? ) for 20 years seems to be a major disaster..

    And …Only men in Osho’s Inner Circle? Unimaginable..

    What happened to all those female disciples of Osho who were close to Him.. No one has stayed back ?

    Osho is the first one to life the self respect and dignity of women.. So many female sannyasins owe it to Osho to participate in Inner Circle..

    Swami Chaitnya Keerthi

    I feel i am being very insensitive if ask more questions..But i am not able to resist.. If you dont feel like replying..thats alright.. We will understand…

    Think No one should have left..Was it not possible to stay and resolve everything from inside rather than leaving and reducing the inner Circle to just 5 members..So many people leaving the inner circle would have resulted in the current situation Isnt it?

    What could have happned if everyone refused to leave the Inner Circle?

  319. shantam prem says:

    This dialogue between Keerti and Kranti; i am touched..
    Keerti ji, please bring out in your words the vision of Osho regarding the institution after His leaving the body.
    I know that you are one of those very few who will never censor His vision for your personal convinience. I appreciate your conviction.
    Nothing lasts forever. The present system at the Ashram has no foundation or grass root base, it is a personal interptation of the famous two. Both these have also immense love for Osho and also much of the personal money is pumpd into the buildings of that place. They were physically close to Osho too, but how long this alibi will stay. …
    New system of operation at the ashram ( call it by any name) will definately take place, let us see whether Iran gets a new operating system first or we the people of Osho.
    So it is a immense inner responsibilty of Keerti to write in detail here or in the Osho world magazine about the operating system of Osho’s choice.

  320. Kranti says:

    Burning Questions..

    ( I dont post these kind of questions out of curiosity or just to spend time in a forum..Not out of a debating mind.. No.. I didnt even make an attempt to share thoughts in a open forum for 17 years after i started listening to Osho .. So i am aware i am not asking questions out of ego but only because of the Love i have for Osho )

    To be fair let us question both sides

    Was there Physical and Pshychological abuse of members so they left ?

    Can something like that happen in a Buddhafield?.. Is it not frightening and smashes all hope people can have in Meditation as such?

    If that can happen in Osho’s place ( Osho couldnt even do harm to Sheela ) What hope the world has especially the sannyasin world?

    Why the need for splitting Heart oriented approach and Head oriented Approach? What harm will be done if few people show devotion.. Whats wrong if few people dance infront of a Osho photo.. ?

    In the process of stopping those things hapen are we not creating space for the opposite also to happen?..In the name of being rational someone can spit on Osho samadhi tomorrow stating he doesnt not like Samadhi and that also means utter disregard for Osho and His teachings also … It is only a question of when..

    So Balance is critical.. in His whole life if Osho dedicated Himself to one area it is Balance with capital B

    Now the opposite side…

    Whether all the Inner Circle members should have stayed back ?

    When Osho handed over the responsibility to 21 people how can they leave? ..

    I am concious that anybody who lived close to Osho would not have compromised on self respect and dignity..But the issue here is not that.. It is applicable to outsiders but not to the people to whom Osho handed over the responsibility… Shouldnt they have put Osho’s Work and Vision over ‘self ‘.

    Was the situation so worse that all these very wise and conciously evolved people couldnt continue and agree with each other..Then what is the effect of meditation on all these people?

    Did people leave in a hurry and that left the existing team to manage the affairs with available members in which case the rotation policy would have become impossible to practice no matter what Osho told

    If the existing team had been left with limited choices then how can we blame them?

    Any number of questions can be asked from outside..It is easier .. But shouldering the responsibility to keep Osho’s vision alive and spearding his message is no ordinary responsibility.

    Inspite of whatever happened or whatever going to happen my respect and Love towards people like Jayesh . Amrito , Sw.Chaitanya Keerthi , Neelam and others will not diminish as in my opinion these are the most blessed and evolved people on the planet earth ..They lived with a Buddha who has no parrellel in the human history..

    And thats is even more bigger reason why other sannyasins need to know why all these things happen..

    With Love to all..
    Kranti

    With Love
    Kranti

  321. shantam prem says:

    Zen stories, Sufi stories, Hindu, christian or Sikh stories, it gives quite a high to read these emotional accounts of the people hundreds or thousands years before.
    As an Indian i see disciples and gurus in every city, it is nothing extraordinary, but the way osho came on the scene and changed the rule of the game and created a real dry clean shop, it is just amazing.
    If it would have been golf or tennis courts, there are many. religions and ashrams are also many. devotion and belief are their main ingredients, same way there are many other ashrams based on Meditation.
    In the west i can say that in every cities, ratio of meditation teachers and hair dressers is almost the same. For this to visit Pune or any other place is as stupid as travelling around the world for a loaf of bread.
    But the structure around Osho was all this and more, a touch of mystery was there….this subtlety, a kind of out worldly charm amongst all the ego and lust oriented games.
    what has happened in last 10 years is a sad state of affairs. To create a Bonsai out of Banyan tree…i wonder why this could ever happened.
    it is as one reads in the children stories that a angry magician turns a beautiful princess into a frozen statue. many try to revive her but fail in the attempt and finally one day some wood cutters boy does the impossible. He finds a way to break the magic spell and so forth.

  322. james morrison says:

    Hello fellow travellers,
    Sannyas is a perfect word to start on. To be a Sannyasin is to be a seeker of truth. It is not a group to be put under a label. Whether Osho is my master is a personal question and has nothing to do with anyone but me. Stop trying to label me to help fliter my opinions. Do they feel true or not?
    Why do you want to know my past?
    Pune is not a spiritual place, it is a mere part of life. It is your ego that wants it to be special.
    Osho is not a special guru it is your ego that makes you feel good about following the best master.
    The organisation of osho’s work is not a big responsability it is your ego that makes it feel that way.
    The ego loves to get worked up by these dramas.
    Please don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing wrong with doing these things just be aware it is not love, spirituality or trying to save or help others it is your ego.
    There is no path, no spirituality, these are dirty words there is only life. But there is also a path and spirituality. What to do?
    Be a light unto yourself or better yet to quote the bearded muppet be a joke unto yourself.
    It is a hard thing to step out of your world and see yourself. To see how serious you have become, to see how you think your religion is the best, how you think it should be done your way, how we become attached to a vision, how we think we know what the master wanted and we have become the very thing we tried to avoid.
    Life is weird huh?
    I had a recent experience and insight into conflict. There is nothing wrong in it. If both parties follow their heart and except the consequences of their actions there is no problem. We don’t dislike the other person. But if underneath we really wanted to follow our desire we will critisice the other for thwarting our wishes.
    At the time of rajneesh puram people were very much attached to the commune and wanting to be part of an IMPORTANT movement and as such allowed abuse to go on. Osho admonished his followers: ‘what have i been teaching you! If you don’t like it leave!’ follow your heart. But that is dangerous, it would mean leaving the master?? and the commune and etc etc basically we want the commune the way we want it because we are so loving right? If you want people to live in paradise you are in hell.

  323. Chetna says:

    James, I really like what you’ve just said! All these illusions, desires are so dear to us. The scary thing I see in my life, once I drop one attachment I do not even notice how I get attached to another immediately.

    And life is weird and I basically do not get it. So what is left? Just relax and watch…..

  324. shantam prem says:

    james, One thing i can deduct for sure after reading your comment that you know quite well that two and two are four, three and three are six..and you presume also that may be others are not aware about this mathmatics of life.

  325. james morrison says:

    Dear ones thank you for responding so beautifully and truthfully. Dear Shantam I KNOW one and one does not equal two, what to do?

  326. Anthony Thompson says:

    I remember when osho was asked about relationships among sannyasins and he said “None, no relationship between sannyasins. each sannyasin is directly related to me”
    My understanding is that any organization is functional to its own aim.
    The places in delhi or nisarga are the places for people who commune to their own understanding of Osho´s work. the same with the resort in pune. I think it is ok that people get together around people who feel in a similar way.
    i personally would feel really awkward in an extremly devotional environment. so the resort is great for me… and many people who feel the same way. But i have no problems with people who want to sing the old devotional song and be sorrounded by pictures of osho everywhere.
    regarding sannyas. I like it that it is a private affair. no ne gives it to you … you take it on your own accord.
    If you have intermediaries… pristhood will follow.
    besides. to become a disciple of a dead master… sounds strange to me… osho would have oppossed to that… In fact I think he would have never become sannyasin. he would have been expelled from Osho world, nisarga or the resort… for sure… if he as a young man would have showed at the gate of any of these places.

  327. kranti says:

    thank u for sharing . One thing i want tell is ( thnk it is nt difrnt for shantam also) we love pune as it is. We both didnt start off the discusns in ths forum from ‘ what we want to see ‘. We tried to see whethr we can take a unbiased look. Thats it. There may pros and cons to everythng. I appreciate james comments and insights but he has to keep in mind that we are taking a personal viem how we want pune to be nor we say everyone shuld hv osho as the master. No. But the fact remains that Osho remains the most effective and dymamic cure for the human problms today. No one is even little close to the vastness of his vision. Have a good time guys. I am writing ths post using my mobile . And i am sitting whre i want to be . Osho resort. Pune. After doing dynamic meditation. My life became colourful and beautiful because of OSHO. It is a love affair with him and his vision. Thats what matters to me.

  328. shantam prem says:

    Osho World or Osho Nisarga were created by those life long sannyasins when they were sentenced to exile by a powerful group of few other sannyasins.
    In the business language it was a hostile take over.
    For hundreds of days, I have walked around the roofless Buddha Hall or have meditated in the Osho Pyramid; but meditation is not just a physical or psychological exercise, if it does not purify our inner sense of justice,fair play and honesty, if it does not transfer our desire to control into a fearless sharing, in my humble opinion it is not meditation. Medicine has not worked.

  329. kranti says:

    the problem is, shantam if you share or express people wil say you are not focused on inner journey and you are expressing ur imdividual egoistic opinions. If you dont speak then people wil say you have become self centred.

  330. shantam prem says:

    Yes, Kranti, it is a very thin balance. Once we do things keeping in mind our own inner exploration than it does not matter what others will say.
    I don’t think inner journey is like sitting in Air condition compartment of an Indian train or even the ashram and feeling immune to all that happens around.
    And my concern is very simple, it is like people who are in the business of Medicine manufacturing should keep their factories and godowns germs free, virus free, bacteria free otherwise it contaminates the whole consignment.
    And when Osho mentiones that my people will be my biographies… i take it and i beleive most of us will be so!

  331. shantam prem says:

    Anthony dear, devotion has nothing to do with photos or Mantra Music. For sure one can dance with hip hop too.
    Example sake after turning the pages, this devotee of Osho will put Osho Times and the copy of Hustler in the same paper bin.
    I don’t have the money for these products but delete them on my computer with the same feeling.
    and as i mentioned before, Osho left us with a multi product store. In spite of adverse publicity “business” was running good. Over all customer satisfaction was very good that is why people were visiting frequently, most of these customers had education, money and taste.
    Competitors were also thinking to expand their business on the same terms but still can not do this because lack of intellectual capital.
    Than as the story goes in many places, a prodigal son comes after studying in Howard’s, appoints his cronies, who were not even the customers, on the strategic places.They took away the products which were the USP of the whole business and result is very clear!
    Moral of the story- successful business is developed with instincts and not with degrees.
    Customers don’t enter the business premises because of air condition in the toilets but they appreciate if the profit is used for these upgrading of services without making the product expansive.

    And for the prodigal son, Please appreciate those of your siblings who were running the business in Daddy”s life time. They need to be appointed again in the board of directors. This act will not make you small but will give a stature of a statesman. Amen!

  332. james morrison says:

    Love.
    Life is so beautiful. Be vital unto yourself, we are alone together. I love this crazy little computer screen I am talking to.
    People are wild and foolish, only awakening stops it so what else can we expect?
    Dance with the ego maniacs who run Pune.
    As Bill hicks says ‘it’s a crazy world but I’m proud to be part of it’
    Remember Osho was one the most intelligent, spontaneous people to ever move among us and he was totaly misunderstood and twisted AT THE TIME!
    As Buddha said pride is the most dangerous delusion.
    The more people don’t get it the more they will stop you.
    You have to remember these people are not sannyasins and smile.
    I love your wishes and hopes.
    I love this web page.
    I love coffee and competitiveness.
    I love how you can’t figure it out.
    As Buddha said ‘joyful participation in the sorrows of the world.’

  333. Kranti says:

    ” I love how you can’t figure it out.”

    Just asking..No seriusness..did you figure it out James?

  334. james morrison says:

    Dear Kranti
    I’ve had my moments:)

  335. Kranti says:

    Thanks james..I understand..

  336. Kranti says:

    I dont think i understand James..The above comment of mine was not honest..Sorry..I just typed a line and posted it ..

  337. shantam prem says:

    “We have been programmed to be ambitious.
    And that´s where politics is.
    It is not only in the ordinary world of politics,
    it has even polluted your ordinary life.
    Even a small child starts smiling at the mother,
    at the father — bogus smile; he has no depth behind it.
    But he knows whenever he smiles he is rewarded.
    He has learned the first rule of being a politician.
    He is still in his cradle and you have taught him politics”..(Who else, but Osho)

    This politics is also the root cause problem in Osho Organisations. Solution is in sharing not in control..

  338. Kranti says:

    Thats a good point Shantam.. Inspite of all the sharpness we still tend to think interms ‘Either ‘ or ‘ OR ‘.. This way or That way..

    The solution is in sharing.. All those original Inner Circle members should have put ‘ sharing’ & ‘ ‘ balance ‘ as a solution not the ‘ this way or that way ‘ approach..

    Again i am making a big judgement..I may be completely wrong.. let me enjoy my ego trips..How long will they last?

  339. james morrison says:

    Dear Kranti
    ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
    big smile
    Observation and judgement look the same on the outside. The people running pune are crooks, ego maniacs, power hungry assholes (i.e. just being human) It’s not a judgement call just a simple observable fact.

  340. Yes, This is good Catharsis Osho lovers are doing these years regarding Osho’s work………
    all are foolish this i feel because who can work for Osho…….he is Enlightened and reached His place………..Nobody can do His work, because He doesn’t exist here, we are doing our work for our growth, and let’s never claim that we only are good doers……….
    Friends certainly we love Osho and we are His crazy Lovers but let’s respect to all here in this existence, nobody is doing any wrong, all are groping in their darkness and growing ahead………
    Love you all for this beautiful Catharsis.

  341. Kranti says:

    Prem samarpan

    No one is doing this for catharsis

    No one is trying to do the work of Osho also..

    No one is a do gooder here..At leats these guys on this forum..If you think the guys on this forum are do gooders that will be the biggest joke of the decade..

    Everyone is trying to do their work only..

    We dont want to sit back and say everything will be taken care by Osho.. thats is suicidal.. Osho would have never agreed for that kind of appraoch..

  342. shantam prem says:

    Aha Some new Swami has joined us in the giberish meditation of thoughts and feelings.
    Thanks God. Samarpan has a nice website so he is not hiding somewhere, one can see who is this swami.
    Beleive me brother, nobody is doing Osho’s work. Atleast here i have never heard these words. During the meditation camps in India, One of my dear friend is a mediation camp facilitator, his kind of people use such words, doing Osho’s work.
    Atleast i am taking only the cigratte pieces away if i see them during my walk at Osho teerth park. Nothing more than that.

  343. Kranti says:

    ” taking only the cigratte pieces away “– you are a do gooder Shantam.. I dont even do that..

  344. Yes,
    Dear all Osho lovers…………..

    this is how we express our reality and ofcourse if we are rally honest then we know who we are in reality and doing what actually we are!
    Thanks God if he exist for this beautiful forum for discussion.
    We are all enjoying by our own way………
    love to you all friend,
    but this is true and my heart always say to me that osho sannyasins are really honest inside cause they sometime look inside and found their reality and they are ofcourse loving because they taste the love of Osho
    so we are all blessed in this sense,
    love you my all friend

  345. kranti says:

    Thank you for a beautiful post Sw Prem Samarpan..

  346. Madha says:

    Hello i am a spiritual person and lover of Osho and would love to take sannyas and followo the path . And finde a good teacher.
    But is very hard as every Osho ashram they are charging and are become very money orientated and i am a small poor person.
    I think we need new Osho ashrams in the world free of money!l
    Make self suistanables comunes and give spiritual bliss to all !
    Please help there any ashram in India any Osho teachers wich i could possibily stay and see with no money in exchange of seva?

    If anyone can help mail me madhadevi@hotmail.co.uk