“All professions are conspiracies against the laity”
(George Bernard Shaw in the play The Doctor’s Dilemma)
This insight through my 17 year old eyes has been of great help during much of my adult life. I read Shaw’s prefaces to his plays voraciously at that age, and one could see that he had a sort of “wisdom” which made him a mentor. Those wisdoms “helped” me. Of course fairly soon after I could see some “flaws”, like his famous blind spot where Stalinist Russia was concerned, and that he wanted to talk too much, and I am sure many other flaws…. but none the less just because someone is flawed in one area, does it mean we should eschew their advice or offered wisdom in all?
In my thirties I met in London a sannyasin who came with a good reputation as a therapist. I did some groups, etc with him and hung out with him too. He showed very good insight both into me, and when I was in the group therapy situation, into others. Nonetheless it became clear that he had almost no insight into his own neurosis, and difficulties. My feeling from some earlier exchanges on SannyasNews is that as soon as a flaw is found in anyone in which one has vested some “authority” , then condemnation quickly follows, almost as a defensive strategy.
I don’t buy that. If someone with a caring feel wants to offer help, whether it be intellectual, emotional or practical, and it is of good and authentic quality, why discard it ? Even when in the last case the flaw was a great handicap to that therapist in and of himself, he still helped many others.
The so-called “Helping Professions” are many, and one must include the sat gurus and spiritual teachers. The biggest challenge for the latter is the biology of man. We have been a tribal animal for 100,000 years or more, and our survival as a tribe often depended on the dominant male, and sometimes female, and the “obedience” often through charisma of that model. It’s in our genes.
The time has come to liberate ourselves from our genes. But that ain’t easy.
And the only way to such liberation is through “understanding” - that this is going on unconsciously all the time. Once that understanding is achieved then either the need to covet such “authority” or to be compliant with it disappears.
Then of course one can see the sat guru model, or the teacher disciple model, are inherent in our social organisations because of the genetic leanings we have. But liberated from that one can still have or offer a helping relationship, that is scrupulously studied over any such development of dependence or self aggrandisement.
And having passed through quite a long life now and met teachers and Masters, I still find it difficult to hear “bitter” stories. Surely even if such relationships have been genetically bound, one can feel gratitude not bitterness ? Otherwise the bitterness can also hold one back from moving on, and moving on into the light.
Parmartha
Can a doctor help?
Can a car mechanic help?
I need some help to repair my dish washer. Water inflow is blocked, and I am lazy and layman both to take the calk away. No idea from where!
Surely, gurus provoke emotions, create some kind of personal or transpersonal relations, but in the end, they too can be/or cannot be categorised into; as Germans call, Dinestleistung(Service providers).
therapists, teachers, workshop takers definitely are service providers and therefore must carry their third party insurance with; just like doctors, architects and lawyers!
yes, you ARE lazy
shantam prem (6.januar 2014 at 6.17 pm)
and covering that up with faking jokes as well as faking “chartings” will not to the job needed
why not learn to be a plumber cleaning up your own mess yourself ?????
you might be even (in your life-time)
being in company to albert einstein
who s last words might have really been that next time wandering o this earth he was willing to be a plumber
(it s a myth though…but a reminder-myth too)
so
why not give that solution a chance ????
and thank you for a new trigger parmatha
as far as i felt – even now feeling it – happening
the dealing with
what has (is)being called a “dealing” with “negativity”
so to say
bitterness anger and whatsoever
has been full of FATAL errors not only in the history books of sannyas
neo-sannyas
ex-sannyas
guess we all know here about REVENGES HAPPENING energetically and also on very real stages and very real protagonists on the stages
acting out of some OFF s in ways of sabotage and what more…..
we honestly know that on what we call “individual”planes
as well as it is thoroughly known in collective unconscious areas
just look at arabian spring-summer.automn and WINTER
and give that a good cry
transforming what is called “negativity” is arduous work
sometimes is a gap
where work-and-not-work fall into harmony
as well as the dual (the good-and-the-bad-and even-the worst s)
this then we call GRACE
don t we ?
there seems to be no way of predicting THE right recipe for that
may be that is called human conditioning
and that has to be honored too
all the insecurities
may we all have a beautiful day today
here at my place the mrning dawn is happening just now
i am into CLOUD-WATCHING besides writing a letter into the digital nirvana and its moderators
madhu
Today’s lesson…
compare and contrast
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Nothing like this in my life that I remember. Has it been a charmed one?
I am put in mind of what Osho once said, if I remember rightly, He said that surrender is the key, and that it can be to anything, eg a tree, but that it is easiest to a human.
The word surrender may ring oddly… Perhaps it is enough to say,’a humble willingness to learn’.
We got a new cat in our home last year. I studied him, how he coped with the careless, even hurtfully aggressive behaviour of my young children. And I learnt from him that it is possible to live without resentment or the desire for revenge at all, because he never showed any sign of either.
So I will go further than this tribal, genetic, context. I will say: there is rich chance of learning to be found all around us, everywhere.
Still: let your surrender be an active and conscious step, one which you can undo whenever that undoing is needed.
Hippocates apparently said: Everything is poison, and nothing is without poison. But I don’t think he advised anyone never to eat .
Just eat wisely. And if it turns out that you didn’t, forgive yourself, push your fingers down your throat, and once you are free, yes, move on.
Hippocrates did mention “fasting” as a cure for almost everything.
One way to avoid the universality of poisons!
Good post, phoenix.
Good and bad they say it’s one
You give a hug you load your gun.
In the playground where it starts
The king of swords the queen of hearts.
Master, teacher, guru too
All primates, cavemen, human zoo.
They shit they fart they lie they cheat
Enjoy the ride, its hard to beat.
Think you’re better, well i doubt it
Talk is cheap, we all can spout it.
For one ’tis meat the other poison
The lips of hungry ghosts they moisten…
In which context he said it…?
“All professions are conspiracies against the laity”
This only make sense, if he tells more about the standpoint from where this understanding arose.
Oh, I should look the Film…
Any way, Sannyasnews is the only Osho disciples based site where some kind of discussion takes place. Every where else you read glossy airport lounge articles and invitations to Some time work, mostly not kind of therapies.
And from the discussion It is very easy to deduct, in which kind of abyss, self reliant disciples hang into.
Reason is simple, when master takes the shape of teacher, disciples gathering becomes as superficial as B&B, trees become dry as earth where they stand is passing through the period of draught.
As I have been contemplating this, I am reminded of the many “teachers” that I have had in my life who I learnt how “NOT to be” more than how “to be”. It was with great disappointment, at times, that my teachers were “only human” and therefore not what I had envisioned as “perfect” (whatever that looks like).
My father was one of my greatest teachers. He taught me how alcohol can become a crutch and destroy your spirit (I never was a big drinker because of what I witnessed in him), as well as taught me how to be kind and considerate to my fellow “men”.
One of the things that I appreciate the most about Osho was his ability to take the good from various spiritual disciplines and bring it together in everyday/modern language. I often believe that every religion has some element of universal truth…all trying to get to the same place…LOVE.
When all layers are peeled, the core of the thing is what it truly is. The greatest teacher to me is life itself. Cause leads to effect. I can learn from my mistakes (and others’) as well as my successes (and others’) if I am wanting to learn from it. I feel the same about Osho. There is no doubt that he had a brilliant mind, was well read, and shared his truth with others. I believe that he was one of the most enlightened masters of our time! He was also very human. To me, that was and is part of his appeal as well.
There never was, nor will there ever be, a “perfect” person. Perfection is in the eye of the beholder. However, there have been and are many who have loving spirits and share those qualities with others. It is through these “gifts” that are given, taught, learned, and passed on again, that makes the world such a wonderful place to live…as well as gives me hope that my life may serve a greater purpose.
With Love,
Champak
Lovely post my dear champak
Some questions you might answer back.
‘Enlightened master’ sounds so grand
Who told you that now, please expand?
Did you know him through and through
Share a meal, chat in the loo?
Challenge him and disagree?
Then get kicked out, bad devotee.
Was he a feeling that you had
Someone to replace your dad?
Does off-peak liberation count
After sermon-on-the-mount?
What does ‘enlightened’ even mean
A fantasy to keep us keen?
Buying stories buying product
Keeping eyes off dodgy conduct.
Sure now he was something special
Part-time saint and part-time devil.
refering to your post dominic ( 7. jan. 2014 at 2.09 pm)
dear dominic
what n extraordinary-ordinary poetry you ve been posting then and there
triggered by the issue and beyond the issue of the latest thread
as i am not english-native speaking-understanding
it has been hard for me to really “get” your last BEFOEthe last line though
but the crescendo of the last line i imagined to understand again…
what the whole of your poetry triggered in me i would like to share
THERE MAY BE A NECESSITY TO LET GO
of old manures to live up to an “AGE OF ENLIGHTEMENT”
the river called consciousness has reached new human landscapes
yet
to be discovered
and it can be
as it happened again and again before
it can be quite devastating and destructive to go the emperors way when discovering
as history taught
that kind of discovery channels lead to acting as well as RE-actings sometimes really DIS-couraging to go forward
also in the so called “new age of enlightenment” whichever schools teachers and masters are happening
being they occult or NON-occult
effects i often feel quite exhausting anachronistic in speech as well as in action
i heard a being
ma heart got on wings with
express:
civilisation
has not happened yet
ever so often i feel some truth in these words and beyond
well
it s easy to put this pain in a “hungry ghost stigma” to shut up (silence)
a request
isn it ???
one of the areas of consciousness i feel very much neglected now-a-days
is the area to be conscious of the FACT
that we all are GUESTS
and when i say this
i includes teachers masters and wanderers on the way into the same category of a being a guest-essence
when i attended meetings in the last two decades
and there haven t been may
i ve been looking if i could feel such an atmosphere
or not
my experience is
when you
and may be only once
had the tongue tip taste of TRUST
you never forget what that feels like
and even if you re seemingly starving while rejecting “food” that hash t got this tongue tip trust flavor
even when arrogant people stigmatize you as anything
for example like you are in their eyeside just notorious nagging or like a bulemy sick person (needing treat)
even then
the art of resisting the interpretations of others
and the cherishing more than the memory of that
tongue tip flavor of TRUST
ask for respect
dignity
as well as following this kind of inner compass
that sometimes is costly though
very much so
and no guaranty AT ALL
of inner or outer “rewards”
well
i am sitting here in the midst of the night
looking for words to come and address to somebody i don t even know personally
may be triggered by that tongue tip taste of trust
may be not
who knows it ?
walking the language-line
just walking
no trail
not even a seemingly path
words are happening
and
there is still this button
and a clic on that button
requested
news from the VOID dominic
adressed to you
and others peeping- being invited to do so
like me myself is invited
we all are guests
aren t we ???
hosting as well as well our own common guest rooms as well as being guests in it
great responsibility ISSUE
have a good night
wherever you are
and have a good day tomorrow too
madhu
Shanypants declares, ‘Reason is simple, when master takes the shape of teacher, disciples gathering becomes as superficial as B&B’. Apart from being untrue, this is a recurring theme in the Chuddie King’s comments. One could conclude that this is how he see himself in the big picture. There is much evidence to support this. As if to say that when a teacher or master gains recogniion it is a waste of time to become involved with them. The only draught in evidence in Shantypants case is the seeming total lack of introspection. He has fallen foul of one of the spiritual paths most simple hurdles; namely projection. Many of his comments support the fact that he is not a seeker but rather a finder of all manner of his own projections, which only serve to an observer in providing an image of a very confused individual.
In my observation of my 22 years of sannyas life , the first genetic mutation is when one gets conscious of one’s life & in that process comes in contact with a spiritual master / teacher or the other way around for some .
The ultimate genetic mutation is when the need for any kind of authority is dissolved & sometimes gratitude is also a hindrance , this I only guess , as I am still hovering between the first & the ultimate !
Nicely put kavita.
Or in my case… From daemonic possession to dominic possession.
As for the continuance of SPAM (sannyas patriots and martyrs), guess that’s Stockholm syndrome.
No dom , Espaem ( Ex – patriots and ex – martyrs ) , Blanksky syndrome .
How about Stockhausen syndrome?
During a performance of ‘Fresco.’
There were signs saying,
“We the musicians are playing, otherwise we would be fired.”
“Stockhausen zoo. Please dont feed.”
And “How can you participate in such crap?”
Many musicians did walk out.
At one point someone switched off the lights,
leaving everyone in the dark.
After nearly 5 hours the performance fizzled out with nobody participating anymore.
Its just a metaphor.
Age of Silicon boobs is over, also Botox is of no use, No need to pump the dick; simply claim I am A Seeker!
Shantypants, your constant need to employ crude sexual innuendoes to express your ideas continues. Why do you think that is?
In an earlier post you were talking about SN being a platform for discussion. I don’t see you as a participant in that. You do not discuss anything. You simply broadcast your very limited perceptions as if they were of some importance, when in fact I don’t see anyone paying much attention to them. I reckon most of the regulars here on SN are aware that it is rare to get anything remotely resembling a personal response from you, let alone an intelligent discussion.
Lets use my question regarding your overuse of sexual innuendo as an example.
Parmartha wrote:
“……because someone is flawed in one area, does it mean we should eschew their wisdom and offered advice in all?
Parmartha….an interesting and concise, logical follow-on piece to the prev. thread, which I have enjoyed reading …. thought provoking enquiry with some anecdotal evidence lending a bit of spice to the flavor – a nice combo. Thanks!
With regard to the bit I have quoted above … I’ll just say, and I think I used this one before, but I’ll say it again anyway, ‘diamonds are sometimes found in mud’. If it’s truly a diamond, one would be foolish to throw it away, right?
Your question raises the obvious necessity of evaluating a teacher on balance…..taking into account the beautiful, the good, the bad, the ugly… warts ‘n’ all. Idealising people as figures of perfection and ultimate authority (or the opposite) – essentially dehumanises the person being evaluated and reduces his/her possible appeal to my mind. Moreover, when terms of absolute whiteness or blackness are employed, I start to wonder and get suspicious about the motives of those using them.
In consequence, if somebody like Lokesh as he did, paints a balanced picture of Osho with his weaknesses as well as his strengths, or anybody for that matter…. then I start to sit up and take notice, as at this point the person being evaluated, becomes a more credible, real and possible proposition as a teacher/guide – not less!
Gratitude its back to front
I’m not saying he’s a c**t.
What I mean is those who teach us
Trying with their might to reach us,
Are the ones who learn the most
They the jam and we the toast.
Its a mutual arrangement.
This an ordinary statement.
‘Instead of kicking up a fuss
They should be paying us!’
what about a nice breakfast table
kavita, dominic, lokesh and me
just as a start up
and what about homemade jam for good toast and toasting
not to forget the butter of happy ever so ever cows
(still don t like the soya milk
so i decently spare out martin who
when i remember rightly is vegan as a vegan can be
well dominic
we are the happy ones
THE BILL
is already paid for it by an unknown and unknowable pub owner
would t that be great
friends ?
besides english food in general
i remember the english jams as faaaar out
and in spite of my preferences to have it salty and spicy too
i have been indulging into english home made marlelade as well as jams
won t WE go for it one day ????
taking a BREAK ????
together ??
i our bodies ?
would be nice-
madhu
Hey madhu , just to let u know I am a late riser these days , I have become more of a brunch person , maybe I can join in a little later . Btw my favorite is orange marmalade on a nicely buttered toast with some nutty peanut butter & a nice big cuppa . Iam so glad the bill is paid for ! Does the bill include the conveyance too ?
“You are definitely not a seeker, you are really not searching, where I am searching. Don´t you see, you are too much outside, I can see this from my inside.”
Once a student was heard saying to another student.
Who knows the teachings of the master best?
Who invests his money into his projects!
My piece is a bit rational.
I am surprised that no-one has raised the matter of “osmosis”. The contact with a living teacher where some kind of contact high, sometimes fairly continuous whilst in his Buddhafield, is experienced.
To be able to trust that and that alone – and still stay mindful of one’s genetic imprint for obedience to the “leader”, is a very stiff test which many failed.
Parmartha,
A Razor’s Edge.
Excuse the liability.
I’m quoting Wittgenstein who was not some philosophical rationalist but much much more.
“What can be said at all can be said clearly, and what we cannot talk about we must pass over in silence.’
He had the some problem as Osho. Disciples mimicking him in every sense including their manner of walking and dressing.
He died relatively young and on his deathbed pointed out that he had the most beautiful life.
One tries with words.
Incidentally Shaw, the Fabian Socialist, played a big part in my early years. This sensitive genius used to stand on a soap box in Hyde Park to overcome his shyness.
Great feeling to articulate something complex, really well.
When speaking or writing.
One can say, another great Rebel. Inevitably a Genius must become a Rebel.
Wittgenstein, Heraclitus, Becket, Pinter, philip k dick, karl marx, freddie N & nihilism, Ikkyu… rolf harris…
Not to mention george bernard shaw & fabian socialists… oh yeah and this osho fella…
Roamin’ Roman are you determined to take us on a cultural postgraduate world heritage course?
Or are you an inveterate name-dropper, like moi?
Anyways I’ve been paying attention, haven’t I, even if you’ve alienated 90% of the droogs.
Keep calm and carry on.
Dominic,
Potlatch.
These gifts. 90% isn’t bad. Thankyou. Feeds my narcissistic personalty disorder. Need to do the test again. Messiah complex.
An Adlerian would say inferiority complex. A Freudian Oedipus and mother. Jung the archetypes. Klein the depressive position. Lacan lack and desire. Sannyasin therapist family constellations. Laing regression therapy. Rogers the group. Miller the mother, feed me. Cognitive behaviour therapist defensive mechanism. Veeresh the drugs. Liz Green Saturn in the fourth. Janov birth trauma. Barry Long avoidance, Muktananda my chakras, Da Free searching for a master. Goenka meditation and vipassana. Zizek a maternal or paternal superego. Ramana the self. Blah blah blah
As for the Droogs well here’s to the old Ludwig and a bit of the old ……
Now there was therapy.
Have you been to room 101? That’s a trip.
Marlboro cigarettes aren’t bad.
Sometimes I smoke Winstons. Have you tried Gauloise? Keep the conversation going?
Yes Room 101 for rat-atouille.
Mal-boro are bad as well as Gall-oise and Dung-hill.
I used to combine Nicotinadatta with Ramana Coke, then went into non-dual rehab.
Currently feeding my Nazicisstic personality disorder, and practicing Tsarzen.
Been trying some of the old new age self-helpless therapies.
Family constipations, facebook pastlife regression, lavalamp skydancing, dolphin hot-tub rebirthing, kundalini chakra weight-loss, tibetan pole-dancing, eco-spirit guide tantra, and now… A-roman-therapy.
Parmartha, as a life long Osho disciple, what stops you to use the word Master. What you want to hide behind the term Teacher!
I won´t mind if you say, deceased masters are as good as dead Nobel price winners, yet to use the term teacher; I think you want to put the wedding ring in the finger of an Escort!
The matter of osmosis
This is my prognosis
A little like hypnosis
Is pleasant in small doses
But if you stuff it up your noses
Its addiction and neuroses.
*Apologies. I can’t find the off switch.
It’s here…
http://i.imgur.com/BEry5JR.jpg
Thx Anu.
I meant of course the kill-switch for the internet.
How else to stop a Babble-onian such as I?
“I am not a priest, I am just a friend. I am here to explain to you how I have discovered truth. Doubt has been my own process, my own way to reach to truth. And I would like you to become more and more sharp, intelligent. Doubt more scientifically. Just as in science doubt helps you to discover, it also helps in the inward journey.” Osho
OK I succumbed. I became my own worst enemy… A lazy, uncreative, good-for-nothing Copy/Paster.
I called in THE expert witness to back up my POV.
What a sleazey low-life I’ve become…
“I am just a friend”.
Crikey, another downgrade not even a teacher!
And he’s telling me to doubt, be sceptical, be sharp, think for myself… Nooooooo…
“We can’t take much more of this captain. We can’t take another attack.”
Dominic,
It is okay.
I try to look for someone’s assets not their liabilities.
Here’s a liability:
‘I’m not a guru but I recognize your need to be a Disciple’ Osho
Yes very suspect…
‘I’m not a bottle of Jack Daniels but I recognise your need to be an Alcoholic’
Cynical, moi?
‘Keep on the sunny side always on the sunny
Keep on the sunny side of life’
There’s been a fair share of posts by cynics and anti-lifers. Just to bring back some balance I’m posting the link from salon.com on Ronald Reagan’s spiritual guru and the reason for Ronnie’s sunny optimism.
This is an interesting read on American spirituality and Ronnie’s relationship
with the great Theosophist and Spiritual Occultist Manly P.Hall.
Whilst utopia was being built in Oregon Ronnie Reagan was spreading his own brand of mysticism across the planet. America indeed was the promised land and a little glitch by some unknown Indian was no problem. You just throw him in the slammer under the name of David Washington. Ronnie had the ascended masters on his side as he moved towards the light and lost his marbles.
The article shows that Ronnie’s legacy is still alive and well. Clinton and Obama have continued this great esoteric tradition.
Pays to know one’s history. Worth a read.
http://www.salon.com/2014/01/05/ronald_reagan_and_the_occultist_the_amazing_story_of_the_thinker_behind_his_sunny_optimism/
As for New Age American light some of you oldies may have a tape by Ma Taru singing songs of Mirabai before Osho gave his discourse.
No instruments – just a voice. The tape was circulated privately and moved folk outside of sannyas circles. ‘For the Love of the Dark One – Songs of Mirabai’ by Andrew Schelling. Worth a look at. No place for new age optimism. Lets no forget Heraclitus, the dark and obscure one. One of Osho’s best books and Roots and Wings.
Here’s to the Sunny Coen Bros.
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Cynics, anti-lifers… bitter…angry…disappointed…?
This game of chinese whispers, one should nip it in the bud.
But instead of taking the endless stream of projection and wilful misinterpretation personally, one inwardly smiles.
Where the, denialists, minimizers, rationalizers, idealisers, compensators, repressors, fantasists… taste sour vinegar, WE the conoscenti enjoy a lovely mystical sweet balsamic.
Ushering in a new dawn of unparalleled light and egalitarianism. Where no man or woman is above any other (barring a few exceptions).
It’s the ‘Power of Positive Drinking’.
I’m off for a Manly P. and to sit on my throne.
Yes, those Authorities know very well their Order. That structure is more occult and superstitious than any american natives.
Actually many sannyasins possibly think, esoteric is an invention of the so called ‘new age’. But ‘new age’ is an invention of the Theosophists and their esoteric understanding according the Masonic order.
“When I am dead,
don’t bury my body,
don’t burn it,
because I will be involved in you,
many of you”
http://www.oshonews.com/2014/01/many-things-happening-dead-man/
This happens when words and reality don´t meet. When we use past words without relevance. Even Osho news have quoted these words.
If not the whole body, at least ashes are preserved as per Osho´s wishes. One thing is clear, Osho has a clear wish not to disappear in anonymity of death but be a lighting figure for generations to come.
After all, He owes nothing to Punja ji or J krishnamurti who preferred not a larger than life role after the death.
beloveds
there are a few things
that should t be talked through
and about
in a way buisiness men and their women and kids too
yes – even their kids too
handle human life
spiritual life
as if they were hedge fonds managers on a trade market autobahn
be it virtual
be it the materialization progesssion (of gaming)
being indulged (busy) with and as well into obnoxious gamings with spreading rumors intrigues and other ingredients of a fucked up and fucking up procedure
of any trade stock marketings to go
there ARE a few things that are NOT to sell
i am missing to read that kind of understanding level
in
everyday life and its interdependent human traffic so to say
madhu s
morning prayer
ps:
well knowing by now that in decent londons s CLUBS
one gives that kind of prayer a “hearty” laughter
and continues business as if nothing has happened
ps:
and yes dominic
you can t find the switch OFF button
sorry to say
but you are not the only one
ps
we are all in that borderlining area by now
that the virtual takes the shape to be natural
and that for sure
is walking
ON RAZORS EDGE
PS
once and again hereby
reloading this my morning prayer of the above lines
while looking into the blue sky happening
a new day has just begun here as in other areas it s gonne be night
simultaniously
trade markets
don t know
traders
don t know either
Frank , a factual request….
Do you remember sometime ago that you mentioned a report or a book that discussed contemporary psychiatry ? You said as I remember that it was a confirmation that no such thing as mental disease can be given a formula with any finality in all the realms of describing psychosis etc. That no such compartmentalising is sufficient for proper understanding. It is a book that describes the anti-dogma of psychology. etc. If I’m on the right lines and if you know what I’m referring to could you tell me the title as I have some professionals in my classes who would be interested in that kind of thing.
ta v much
(MOD: NEEDS TO BE ON-TOPIC OR THEREABOUTS, MARTYN. ALTERNATIVELY, SUBMIT AN ARTICLE?)
http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Szasz/myth.htm
martyn,
I`m not sure. thomas szasz does seem to fit the bill for what you describe,but I don’t remember mentioning him.
maybe you are thinking of “against therapy” by jeffrey masson?
there is another writer david smail (I cant remember if I mentioned him here) who wrote a lot of stuff about how in his practice as a psychologist, he found that in his opinion, most of peoples so-called mental illnesses weren’t illnesses that could be cured but rather, valid responses to the demands of a mad and difficult world.
(I think he may have been a mate of szasz)
Thanks very much guys, very helpful.
Mods , thanks, if and when I get the time I’ll write in.. am currently v busy teaching, but its a subject that could do with some introspection, considering the how we got to where we are.
ttfn , and again thanks
m
We had that brief exchange fairly recently about this book.
The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind (Penguin Psychology)
Julian Jaynes
Read it. Quite intelesting. I’m more an Irvine Welsh man myself.
Good Link, it took already long for the profession to conceive.
Another one well worth looking at (or even reading) is the classic, ‘Treatment or Torture’, by Glyn Seaborn-Jones (1968), a brilliant British academic/psychoanalyst who became an equally or even more brilliant innovative psychotherapist, even making it onto regular tv and radio programmes during the 70′s.
(North Londoners might be aware that he lived in Princes Avenue, off Muswell Hill Broadway, for many years, where the upper floors of his large Edwardian home were given over to several relatively soundproof rooms, available for anyone to hire very cheaply for ‘self-therapy’ etc., including, for a while, organised dynamic meditation.
Using these facilities helped me out of many a ‘difficult moment’ and there really should be many more of them, where people could go at more or less any time to freely release stress etc. without disturbing anyone).
Yes I saw him SD, and we held Dynamic there.
His son, who inherited and I met, became a born-again Christian. Go figure. Oh the shame.
Dominic,
Maybe the Holy Spirit came down. Born Agains do have mystical experiences.
Yes the invisible and the non-existent look very much like.
You mean more of an ‘Is that so?’ approach.
He spoke like a fundie, was part of a group, and was against dynamic et al.
He had been living abroad, alienated from his father, if memory serves me.
And thus his dad’s physical legacy was terminated.
Interesting, Dominic, somehow pretty odd too, as on the few times I came across Glyn’s son he appeared a particularly ‘normal’, healthy young man, with a strong zest for life and no obvious hang-ups.
Indeed, I was told his father once had him make a brief ‘guest appearance’ in a weekend group, where he put on a bit of a song’n'dance act, free of the sort of crippling inhibitions that might have plagued the other participants. IE an example of Glyn’s catch-phrase describing the desirable outcome of therapy, ‘body/mind well-being’ – a ‘free spirit’ even.
But I also sensed a certain uneasiness in him re the ‘clientele’, a certain subtly judgmental attitude, as if he was somewhere thinking, ‘Christ, what a bunch of losers! Wouldn’t want to associate with that lot! Glad I’m not like that and never will be!’
Mind you, when I saw him after his father’s death he did look somewhat shaken, almost in disbelief that Glyn had merely simply slipped away. I always thought they had a very good relationship. But anyway, who knows what goes on behind closed doors? Appearances can be deceptive, reality can be surprising…
But there you go…Who said a radical teacher’s children are automatically going to ‘follow’ him/her? And whereas body/mind well-being would seem a prerequisite for a worthwhile, enjoyable life, in itself it might not necessarily be ‘the answer’, especially for an intelligent chap like Glyn’s son. And by the time he passed away, his father was apparently moving more and more into deeper inner realms (he’d talk about descending inside, via an “inner bathoscope”). The logical climax of a life dedicated to in-sight.
One last thing about Glyn Seaborn-Jones:
He was himself a ‘seeker’ till the end and totally respected others’ freedom; always supportive, but encouraging people to find their own way, to find independence. He was no authoritarian, even, for example, allowing space in sessions and groups for people to express any negativity towards him. That’s what I call doing a good therapeutic job.
Dominic,
I knew a guy who was born again five times. He said it was a bigger high than drugs. He loved the whole participation mystique. He was surrounded by women on his baptisms who were swaying and singing songs to Jesus.
After the experience he became his healthy critical self which meant he didn’t babble on in ‘fundie’ language about the pure light and love of Jesus. Reminds me of the Salem witch hunts in Arthur Miller’s The Crucible.
I liked the film.
When I saw Glynn, he said he’d been reborn 33 times during primal/regression work.
Some anecdotes…
“His early years were ones of great poverty. His father lived in a shed, with a missing wall, at the end of the garden because the cure for his tuberculosis – contracted as a result of being gassed in the first world war – was considered to be plenty of fresh air, even in winter.”
“At the age of 60, he was given six months to live because of a severe degenerative condition of the liver. So he embarked on a strict dietary regime known as the Gerson cancer therapy, which he maintained in modified form for the rest of his life. His liver restored itself.”
“Seaborn Jones was not one to worry about what neighbours thought. Well into his 70s, while younger men visited gyms to keep fit, he was often to be seen walking the streets of Muswell Hill, stripped to the waist, weights in each hand. He continued to see patients to within weeks of his death.”
Buddha, jesus, mohammed etc, they all had one thing in common.
No jokes! No stories of jesus smiling or telling a joke. Miserabilists.
“He was surrounded by women on his baptisms who were swaying and singing songs to Jesus.”
A kind of Jesus sannyas ceremony then.
Dominic,
A response to 12.20 which is moving.
This is a reverse case.
I’m friends with a female psychiatrist whose parents literally divorced her when she underwent analysis. Becoming a doctor was fine. A psychiatrist an issue and then undergoing long term analysis a disaster. Her parents are from Prague and strong Christians. The law of the father etc. My friend works with women who are suicidal cases because of abuse and tragedy. She is on standby and the women are helped.
‘A kind of Jesus sannyas ceremony’
Well Jesus, the messianic prophet (who literally believed the end of the world was nigh) is not there in the flesh. My partner and I left Poona a few weeks after Osho’s death. I’ve never returned. We all do it differently. I like Chris Gray’s account.
YOU got me, beloved kavita (9.januar 2014 at 6.26 am)
you rely got me
and you DID it the loving way
answering a child s play with beautiful dreams and looking out for friends to play with
in circumstances of the REAL
that are not at all convenient with the dream
and that s why i feel we all dream the one and or the other way
in this kind caravanserai s
some dreams are nightmares
some are not
the dream of having a breakfast together was one of the latter ones
it is so nice
how
and
that
you answered
and so i top my earlier dream ride
with
aaah yes
for sure
also “conveyance” is paid for by the unknown unknowable pub owner
(including the free transports of friends to MEET and smell orange and the other stuff like butternuts and have a laughter together)
madhu
(don t believe me though but join in into laughter
each and everyone at his/her place
may be having consequences like
a REAL chill in all our chill -in chill -out phases
wherever we physically are
may be ?
so who knows it
???
embrace-ment……
from
madhu to you
“He showed very good insight both into me, and when I was in the group therapy situation, into others. Nonetheless it became clear that he had almost no insight into his own neurosis, and difficulties.”
This a surprising statement. How is it possible to have insight into others without insight into yourself, which doesn’t exclude cavernous blind spots?
I suppose that’s what you’re saying.
Sannyas therapists were often ‘up’ themselves. It’s partly the celebrity, hierarchical, channel-for-Osho, model passed down.
Contrast this with conventional therapists who are normally obligated to receive their own therapy and supervision as a requirement of practice.
Still the helping professions is a hierarchical model, .
The professionalisation and mystification of what ‘ought’ to be democratised and made available to all, starting with healthy parenting and schools.
Co-counselling and rogerian counselling theory, which I liked, stripped away this 19th century elitist dark shadow of high-priest therapy.
Behind its many personal freedoms, sannyas was politically authoritarian. Using ‘surrender’ for it’s orwellian spin.
“My feeling from some earlier exchanges on SannyasNews is that as soon as a flaw is found in anyone in which one has vested some “authority” , then condemnation quickly follows, almost as a defensive strategy.”
There is naturally enough a much higher expectation of ‘good’ behaviour from people claiming to be enlightened or playing guru/teacher pastoral roles.
Politicians similarly are scrutinised and fall quickly from grace.
One man’s ‘flaw’ is another man’s ceiling.
For some, abuse of sex, drugs, power, money is acceptable and they seem to revel in this new found ‘humanness’.
“Look he’s just like us. How cool, how human, how post-modern is my guru.”
And this too can be a defensive strategy, by minimising or denying a feeling of betrayal.
In which case I suggest you just throw yourself over the cliff with all the other lemmings.
After a long association with a teacher and his organisation, you’re more likely to want to weigh up the good, the bad, the ugly, and the mental.
But I suspect we might be more, or utterly disillusioned, with the notion of ‘enlightenment’ as having any validity, at least as it has been presented.
“Enlightened Master” therefore? Give me a break! Such notions deserve to be thrown on the rotting dungheap of history.
“Devotees of the world unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains.”
I choose this guy advisedly. In this case he had some good qualifications and previous self-analysis. I still value some of his insights. He had no bent for self criticism though, and had no understanding of his own problems. You fall into what i think is still called an “ad hominem” argument if you condemn someone for what he is, and not what he can effect.
I wouldn’t ‘condemn’ the person only the pattern or behaviour. Psych 101.
And I wouldn’t separate their healthy functioning from their ability to ‘help’ others.
Don’t know this particular case, so can’t offer comment.
Seems you prefer not to name names.
Gurudom, therapy, healers live in a touchie, feel-good world without much objectivity, data or science. It’s all anecdotal with the barest of follow-ups and representative sampling, after say 1 week, 1 month, 1year etc.
Someone’s impact on you is subjective, maybe he ‘helped’ many others, many he didn’t.
We’re all wounded healers anyway.
Still I contend you can only know in others what you know in yourself. With other areas that you’re maybe avoiding.
I sometimes find the field of professionalized ‘helping’ wizards suspect and infantilizing, and helping themselves as much as anyone else.
Some people feel helped by Sw. *******’s work for example, whereas I……
There were quite a few cultic mavens in sannyas who seemed to bedazzle people in the short-term.
Lots of pop and fizz, a bit like ‘Dynamic’, but what were the long-term benefits.
I think they’ve had to rethink their approach to make it on the outside.
You’re turn to bat, sir.
Yes striding to the crease!
As you know I work semi-professionally with Victims of Torture, particularly from Iran.
I have never seen the inside of a prison, alone an Iranian one, living with the threat of hanging and/or torture every moment.
Yet some of these guys pick up on something inside me, and sometimes seek me out. I dont think it follows that you have to have “experienced” what those seeking help have experienced, just to be in fully in touch with the tragic sense of life is often enough.
I would say what they might pick up is someone who has lived under the wire in one way or the other, that is not lived a conventional life, and someone who has suffered.
True no iranian prison, but what about the infamous Sheela correctional facility and penal institution, (twinned with camp 22 in north korea,) and it’s brutal regime?
Gaccamis…no kissing…rubber gloves…enforced ‘worship’ and drive-bys…guns…poisoning…isolation…brainwashing…living with the threat of expulsion…all run by a deranged crazed tyrant.
You too have suffered as a victim of torture and so your heart goes out to the oppressed.
Parmartha,
Well I agree. They wouldn’t relate to normotics. Being thrown out of the norm changes one. It is nice to know one is a bit nuts.
A friend of mine was told at school that Asians don’t have souls and when you go to Vietnam you can kill them. East Europeans, communists, can still be saved. They are really Christians. He was thrown out of school for not fitting in with the norm. He’s still fighting the good fight.
Your right madhu who knows ? ! embrace-ment to you too .
One thing that yet seems unnoticed in this string is the absence of teachers in the lives of some mystics, including Osho. There were some almost totally unknown (to others) friends from his village, etc who Osho does mention, but they dont seem to have played a very big part at all.
The point of my title was to try and tease this line out. I know I was in one early darshan with Osho when he said he would have avoided the ashram like the plague when he himself was seeking!
Yeah. Only because he was such a bolshie egotistical teenager, youngster.
Parmartha,
Didn’t trauma set him on his path? Death? A bit like Gautama? Lets not forget Gautama had psychological baggage. Mummy died when he was only six weeks old etc.
Osho was always with others. Didn’t do the cave trip. I thought there was a very old mystic who saw something in Osho. The Shivapuri Baba? Is that his name?
A Meher Baba devotee once told me that Baba meet Osho and told him to beware of false masters. Still this guy thought Baba was the Messiah and had his group. You can’t live creatively without a group?
We are programmed to be with others? Biology – as you mentioned at the start of the thread?
Scholar’s say Sid’s mum gave birth to him ‘al fresco’ while hanging on to a tree branch, then she died 7 days later.
So probably plopped out on his head and then separation trauma, generating a life-sucks-then-you-die philosophy.
Dukkha, ‘life is suffering’ (long face), and anicca,’Everything is impermanent’ (glass half empty).
And after 2.5 thousand years of Vipersana research by squillions, the present moment is still not that great, and no reason to have a party for. So if you feel life’s pointless and your short of a few bob, you’re on your way to parinirvana.
Keep calm and watch your breath.
Although buddha-ism manages to win best organized religion award year after year. Says a lot really.
‘Organised Religion’ – Osho speak? A bit like ‘politics has entered’?
I find it interesting how some try to separate religions from cults. Someone wrote a doctorate on how tai quan do is a religion. Many scholars would say it is impossible to come to a consensus on the definition of a religion. We only have to reflect on what humans have worshiped. Is anything excluded?
As for ‘politics has entered’? Well as Aristotle once said ‘we are political animals’. We live in groups and fight/flight or forming dyads’ is what we do in groups. Surely this is politics. We only have to think of the politics at the ranch or here.
As for the benefits of watching your breath I’ll flee from that argument.
When one person suffers from a delusion, it’s called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion, it’s called religion.
Religion or cults, same difference. Maybe add time and numbers.
I’m being ironic about the breath. I agree watching your breath just leads to… watching your breath.
I find the whole vipassana, watcher position flawed. The mind playing with itself, leading to detachment, not in a good way. Wilful, imposed and requiring effort.
Don’t think osho really understood it, just copying the buddhists.
Ever done a goenka retreat? Torture.
In fact all attempts at employing a technique to get somewhere are mechanistic.
‘Who am I?’ That’s another barking technique leading to spaced out dissociation.
Anything unnatural, imposed is fundamentally a kind of self-hatred, trying to fix yourself or chase enlightenment, be other than where you are.
~ rant 66 from dom’s ‘Book of Rants’
Dominic,
Its nice to write with out knowing what comes next. Some think they are in control of language.
Not into Goenka. Have a friend on retreat in Lumbini doing the the hard stuff. Vipassana 16 hours a day for three months. He goes every year. He’s a Theravada Buddhist. The Pali canon etc. He enjoyed an early Osho book I gave him. He told me the discourses on Buddha was what he was looking for at that time. He’s a disciple and finds devotees irritating. He is also dismissive of profound experiences. All groups have them. Fascinating Fascism. It’s appeal is saying yes to the messiah or party. So exhilarating. Fascism isn’t just oppression. There are fake rewards. Brave New world more relevant than ever. But don’t worry you won’t be sent to the reservation for savages or the Bastille. Thought crime is allowed.
‘Opposition is true friendship’ Blake
Dominic,
A reply to 4.52 pm.
Well commodity fetishism is certainly universal. Capitalism out of control. Politicians don’t know what to do.
Piaf worked. The old Ludwig may not. Angus frightens most off. He’s more powerful than the British Fleet.
As I see it, we are not born programmed. Rather born on same grounds. The stamp happens by our social environment. I recently saw a report on primates. Their social structures were developed only by the life conditions, their general criterion are climate and food. But our special Situation is the Mind and a few cunning found out how to confuse our shared investment.
In relation to religion, I follow completely Osho: ‘Religion should be rebellion.’ The Osho Upanishad Vol. 33
Preetam,
I like this. We can come up with universal theories about our species. Really profound ones like we need food, water, shelter etc but it doesn’t say much. Once we start looking at different cultures the game changes. It doesn’t have to be a fucked planet. Different cultures produce different human beings – from the Aztecs to whatever.
Some people think that Edith Piaf’s music is about passionate (failed) love.
When an ethnographer played the music on a phonograph to Pygmies in Africa they didn’t find the music romantic at all and they ran for shelter. Perspectives!
Globalization is here to stay. What do we do about it? None of the religions, including Oshoism, can handle what’s coming. He’d perhaps agree, seeing he ridiculed ‘isms’. A deep green movement might be a place to start? The guru game over? No avatars or messiahs?
If you don’t know much about Globalization at least this, that it is man made. Sure no religion will handle, it’s created by the same materialists and was the first step for Globalization.
Preetam,
You are sounding like Marx. He wasn’t a materialist. Try not to get locked up. These ideas are dangerous.
Roman, Globalization only another word for world domination what is a long term agenda.
A structure created those religions for the same reason of controlling humans mind. Not too humans welfare as history and present prove, but to suck the big breast by blood and pressure perfectly without any resistance.
“A structure”? Well, ok – but essentially it’s ‘only’ human ignorance, the same sort of ignorance that’s in me and even you, Preetam, albeit apparently unmodified by even tiny inklings of Truth.
Once you recognise this then the ‘us v them’, ‘goodies’ v ‘baddies’ version of the world, of history – which is rather convenient for our wish for simplicity (and in which there is arguably an element of truth of course) – starts to crumble.
However, you might already be a ‘realised being’ and consequently coming from a somewhat different perspective?!
The holy royal trinity: fear, pressure and charity.
Btw Roman,
we’ve just opened our borders in the uk to Bulgaria and Romania. Presaging a potential influx of medieval throwbacks on carts and horses, gypsies and upwardly mobile vampires.
But so far your roman-ian presence is a positive endorsement of European Union policy and multiculturalism.
I am humbled!
I think the ‘teasing’ has exhausted people, and their ability to post is compromised.
Of course he would say that wouldn’t he.
It’s called a pre-emptive strike, knowing full well he would have been banned for drawing crowds, and trying to set up another franchise.
friends
there is this topic isn t it ?………
after having scrolled through many interesting and inspiring comments
i ve putting the screen here into what is called “resting-space”
switched of and turned on to join a (tv)program where people documented and discussed the new ways the “information-societies” which are undergoing new ways of seeing
understanding
as well as communicating
and inter-relating
while doing this
i fell asleep
when i woke up
around just before midnight
NOW
i am feeling to send you a note
and may be it has been linguering underneath all day long
and the words for this :
it may be good
just for a change
to replace “teacher” by teaching
a teaching really CAN help
as well as the person who is taught
as well as the one who is teaching
i woke up with the sweet and deep memories of (one of)the ways we can do the SUFI dance together
and how that has been touching me in the deepest core of my being
as if i had been waiting lifetimes to experience that
such a deep RESPECT for one another
circling
bowing down
greeting and acknowledging each other
looking into each others eyes
turning again
bowing down again
to the next partner
looking deep into each others eyes while bowing down
and so on and so forth
besides the music
just these seemingly simple but so deeply to the roots going symbols of gestures
have
unspoken but answers of understanding
if the teacher
also guru if he or she is drawn to take that shape (role)
and the disciple
if he or she is drawn to take that shape (role)
are in this kind of DANCE of the energies together
there is teaching happening
just
like
THIS
and if conciousnesses meet that way
it s more like a love-affair
and teaching happening like kind of by-product
sometimes profound teaching
(even if i don t like the word just now not really but i haven t another one)
i feel it like this
the moment this way of mutual deep respect and love is missing
then all kinds of mental wars or competition rumblings are happening
as kind of SYMPTOM
and then we all get in many ways lost and also apart
as well as we may loose the topic or issue
i am cherishing in gratitude
having have been able to join communion spaces and places
with others
where and when this mystical dances have been happening
there and then
I WAS HOME
and teachings “of help” have been happening although it is still so difficult
to use these words for that
one cannot perform or fake that
on the other hand it is a very individual affair
and yet same time a collective affair too
it comes close to a miracle
and
IS very very fragile too
like the flavor of a flower when the flower is already gone
bowing down to you
in deep
respect
NOW
madhu
Madhu when describing the ‘dance of energies’ between a teacher and disciple wrote: ” ….if consciousnesses meet that way
it is more like a love affair
and teaching happening like kind of a by-product”
Her words recall to mind, those from another beautiful song sung in the film ‘South Pacific’ – ‘Some Enchanted Evening’, which describes the mysterious loving connection between two strangers across a crowded room who have not spoken to each other yet:
“Who can explain it?
Who can tell you why?
Fools give you reasons
Wise men never try!”
I was not around when Osho was still in the flesh so I cannot testify to participating in the mystery ‘live’ with him, but certainly feel I have met him thru his meditations, etc. which have produced something very special and magic in my own life.
Elsewhere ‘Champak’ talks about “life being a great teacher”. It certainly is…. reminds me of my Mother who lived in England all thru the 2nd World War. Brain-washed with anti-German propaganda, she loved to air at every opportunity, Churchill’s warning “If you don’t keep the Hun under your heel, he’ll be at your throat.”, to us her children long after the war ended. Then much later on her life, several years after my Father had died, she found herself a new male companion – no prizes for guessing where he was from!
There are enlightened masters or not,
Buddha has a childhood trauma, Osho has this and that trait; Dominic kinds should analyse why the hell they went to India and changed their appearance and names?
It is now established most are heterosexuals, few are homos. No discussion about it. Insights are needed what was the attraction when normal sensible people try the different way and then feel the trauma their whole life, even after all the cleaning and rubbing.
Oh Yes…youth is for experimenting and then cherishing or condemning the memories!
This clip from Germany shows the joy of these cows who won’t be going to the slaughter house. Wonderful therapy.
In this brave new world what wonderful creatures still exist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Bo8SKi7q-dU
No argument.. just delight …thanks Roman
Martyn.
When she showed me you came to mind.
‘Minute particulars’ Blake.
Take care.
Osho’s own life is a bit of a contrast to some of the recent posts. He never did anything like sufi dancing in his life for example, yet became a source of great love.
The year before his “enlightenment” was a dark year indeed,as Roman hints in a previous post. His father could be the only one who could be said to be “guiding” him during that year. He took Osho to various Doctors to try and help him. Fortunately he took him to one Indian schooled Doctor who said dont give him any psychiatric medication, to which Osho’s father concurred. According to his own report Osho himself used to run twice a day, nearabout eight miles, simply to keep himself in the body and presumably in his senses during this year.
One could say that Osho’s father was certainly his carer at that time, and the family were very worried for their son. Passing through such a disturbed time it might have helped Osho to have had a spiritual mentor, might it not?
I remember in Pune one that a leading Osho disciple was Shyam Singha, (a well known acupuncturist in London). He appeared to be losing his marbles, and administrators in the ashram were worried. Osho said just allow it and encourage cartharsis, etc if it arises. Shyam began to laugh and is said to have laughed for three days. After which he returned to “normality” but seemed to be much “larger” according to most reports, and afterwards began teaching in a way in his own right from a small centre in Bell Street, London.
I dont like sentimental views about those who attain some kind of spiritual advancement – clearly many passed through some very rough psychological times before being free of such angst.
Hopefully 30, 40 years from Now, there won´t be discussion about Puna One, Rajneeshpuram or Puna two or thereafter.
None of the Osho disciples of that time will have the personal experience of any phase. So the best analytical academicians among the folks will be the Spokespersons.
’30, 40 years from Now’ That about sums Shantypants up perfectly. So much for living in the moment. Yet this misguided chappie believes he knows something about Osho’s vision. You’re unbelievable…..
What will be the world population in 2050?
How much infrastructure need to be developed?
What will be the GDP of UK in 2020; how many more immigrants will be integrated. With the increasing number of elderly people, is there a need to add one more bed in Frank´s room?
Life is a continuity..it is taking the present into the ever exciting future.
But then there are Indian returned wise people who have got some idea about here and now.
“As long as I have daily food and a F….K and some great Book on my bed side, I am happy to be here and now. future is for idiots.”
Not convincing, Shantam.
Sure, such political and economic decisions have to be made – but not by the likes of you and me, nor, I imagine, by anyone else who frequents this place.
Same goes for ‘the structure of Sannyas’, of course. You’d love to be in the big race, but the reality is you’re a non-runner, spectating from the sidelines, living vicariously like everyone else watching the news for occupation/’entertainment’ while imagining they’re ‘really very concerned about everything’.
And as for the “ever exciting future”, well…at our age how about factoring in sickness, old age, debility, disease and death? Would that be “exciting” enough for you, sir?
Pleasant dreams, Shantam….
Lokesh the self proclaimed wise,
I have not a clear idea what is Osho vision, but I can see clearly who are screwing it with the rubber and give the impression, Spring is not far away.
Surely you are not one of them. You left the stadium at your will. Was this in 1978 or 79?
Hang on – you don’t know what Osho’s vision actually is yet you can clearly see who is obliterating it?
I strongly suggest you make an urgent appointment with an optician. That, or reconsider your ‘vision’ of how things actually are.
(MOD: SOME EDITING HERE)
81, as it happened, just before the rot set in. I kept up the orange clothes and mala for some years after that by which time I could clearly see the clowns had taken over the circus and the ring master had left the tent, Shantam, oh seer of visions?
(MOD: A FEW WORDS LEFT OUT HERE)
Satyadeva,
If I convince you, will you become my disciple?
I say my thing with zero percent expectation to convince any of my fellow bloggers.
it can be chatter chatter of a bird or a bark of a dog who cannot bite.
One thing is sure, I love words combinations typed by me and it is a small effort of a disciple to share his experience in the crowd of smarter than smart Sannyasins(ex.)
Master had not left the tent in 81, but few people created the impression, ” You can expand your circus around the globe. Christianity is not entertaining any more, there is a scope of big ticket expansion.
Result is clear, even in the circus, one cannot make Tiger and cheetah dance and hug all the time.
I think If someone “sensible not sentimental” like Lokesh could have told to Osho, ” Master, don´t be too ambitious. I think master and his people would have killed him with satires and various adjectives of backstabbers.
You are not the antidote to the poison, You are the poison.
(MOD: NOTE TO ALL: SN WOULD PREFER TO AVOID ‘PERSONAL’ ABUSE IN POSTS, EG ‘Your posts are like poison’ OR ‘This post is poisonous’ WOULD BE PREFERABLE TO ‘You are the poison’. AND ‘This post/These posts are a bottomless well…’ PREFERABLE TO ‘You are a bottomless well…’. WE REALISE THERE’S A FINE LINE AT TIMES, BUT THAT’S THE GENERAL POLICY HERE).
Sorry bout that Mod.
Would
Shantam.
‘You are obviously drawing your posts from a bottomless well of drivel.’
be more suitable?
MOD: TRICKY ONE THAT. YES, OK!
By chance, few videos of Hindu avatar Mam Meera passed through my eyes at youtube. So I have invested around 5 minutes on five different videos.
Somewhere surely teachers help, otherwise so many people, white educated prosper would not have stayed in the line to have a glimpse of an average South Indian Amma.
I think deep down we all believe in wonders, myths and hypes. There must be a reason why Swatch has sold 7 Billion Euros worth of watches(people still buy watches) in last financial year. I think same amount of collective turn over is of all the guru donations combined together.
I think western mind has this primal fantasy, ” Browns with Docile energy has a miraculous effect around.”
Reading this puerile nonsense from “an average” north Indian ‘Sikher’, I find I grasp more of what Jesus meant when he (allegedly) advised, “Do not cast your pearls before swine.”
(MOD: A WORD EDITED HERE)
You are a bottomless well of drivel.
verb
verb: drivel;
3rd person present: drivels;
past tense: drivelled; past participle: drivelled; gerund or present participle: drivelling; past tense: driveled; past participle: driveled; gerund or present participle: driveling
1.
talk nonsense.
“he was drivelling on about the glory days”
synonyms: talk nonsense, talk rubbish, babble, ramble, gibber, burble, blather, blether, prate, prattle, gabble, chatter, twitter, maunder; More
informal; waffle, witter on, gab, talk through one’s hat;
vulgar slang,bullshit
“you always drivel on like this”
Shantypants says, ‘By chance, few videos of Hindu avatar Mam Meera passed through my eyes at youtube.’
By chance? What, you just switched on your pc and there was Mama Meera waiting to sat hi? Who you trying to kid? You were looking for a porn site and you hit the link for ‘Big Mama Does Everything’ and next thing you knew it was satsang time. Sinner repent!
Few people give the impression of grown up who walk with the pampers.
They simply react. I mean to write something of your own does not need a degree in rocket science!
Roman, you ask about the early “teachers” of Osho.
There were a couple mentioned by him in Glimpses of a Golden Childhood.
Bear in mind that the two wings of Osho’s temporal world both never wanted this book published, Sheela on the one hand, and Vivek on the other. This was because it was regarded as fanciful and over influenced by being dictated on nitrous oxide, etc, – and possibly following his own advice to a friend of mine who wanted to write his biography, “just make it up”!
SN carried previously a short article about Megga Baba at
http://sannyasnews.org/now/archives/2967
The year in the wilderness that Osho experienced at age 20 before his enlightenment at 21 seems to have an authentic ring, and the love and care of his father in that period should not be underestimated.
Parmartha,
Thank you.
You made an interesting comment about your experience with the sannyasin therapist. John Layard, who wrote ‘The Celtic Quest’, tried to blow his brains out. He survived and became a Jungian analyst. When patients came to him they sensed he understood their plight. He’d been there. No bullshit new age consolation.
One can’t just do it alone. We are social creatures. The very organizing principles of our mind, which are based on traumas, hinder our self understanding. A snake chasing its own tail. A problem with vipassana? Another perspective can shake you up and oil the wheels. I believe everyone’s vision is limited. There’s always an historical context. Buddha was a product of his time and today he would say he was wrong about certain things.
I don’t think Osho was a fraud. Anyway I’m not into the fake/genuine distinction. Would Osho be concerned if his legacy came to an end?
Is it a problem? Perhaps being or having been a disciple is an interminable experience. A bit like psychoanalysis. Ex disciples still write or talk about Osho. We know it is not a question of knowledge. You don’t talk for all those years to give someone knowledge. It is perhaps realizing you don’t know?
From my own subjective experience I am still moved when I think of those last weeks of Osho’s life. It was obvious he was on the way out. An Indian journalist wrote about it at the July festival. I still remember an article along the lines of ‘Rajneesh is dying and going out in style’. An old sannyasin also told me when we had a meal that he might have a year or so. I feel privileged but I have no desire to push Oshoism. I had to deal with other deaths after Osho’s and the possibility of my own. The man helped me realize a few things. Perhaps just a little bit as he once said. Socrates also just spoke and around him you realized your ignorance.
As ‘I grow up’ I realise they’re all fakes.
In the sense that it is all borrowed knowledge, looking outside of oneself, and not claiming one’s own beautiful inner treasure and unique point of view.
‘Let the dead bury the dead’, as Jesus said.
And if you meet the buddha on the road, foot hard down…
(Shooting myself in both feet again!)
No argument with this, Dominic, except that it sounds as if you’ve never come across a teacher who encourages you to question what they say, ie to check it out in your own experience.
But another point is even more significant, ie the ‘energy transmission’ of a genuine spiritual teacher, that which takes you deeper within, which doesn’t depend on their words, on their particular perspective(s).
I find it hard to believe you’ve bypassed both these essential elements in your many years of ‘searching’.
Satyadeva… satya dreamer…
“it sounds as if you’ve never come across a teacher who encourages you to question what they say, ie to check it out in your own experience.”
What a lovely novel idea, would never have thought of it on my own.
But then again talk is cheap.
Maybe if teach-us were more like glynn seaborn jones and had had a modicum of training in say rogerian counselling, there’d be less groupthink and conformity than there is.
Most teachers treat you as passive consumers of their multimedia commercial empire or acolytes of their traditions and lineages, and do not take to much questioning, feedback or discussion.
Discussion is often discouraged as part of the ego…the enemy!
Guru knows best, guru is god, just surrender.
Package comes with free get-out-of-jail crazy wisdom card.
Even if the guru seems abusive how could you possibly judge from your limited mind.
Think for yourself? That’s a good one!
We have the buddha saying “be a light unto yourself”, followed by 2.5 thousand years of carbon copy cloning.
We have osho telling people to be free, and wear what they like, then getting pissed when they do, and shaming and guilting everyone, to make them feel bad about their lack of surrender. While he’s got more star wars outfits than mgm studios.
Sure you’re free to think exactly what we tell you.
So much “energy transmission”, so little enlightenment.
So many gurus and avatars… So much scandal.
More e-missions than trans-missions, seem to be going on.
You’re obviously a meera-kat and a believer.
No major scandal around her it appears, apart from andrew harvey getting the gay hump and dissing her.
Wouldn’t fancy the transmission though of sai baba, amma, maharaji, muktananda, gurumayi, maharishi etc…
I’d feel dirty afterwards and need delousing.
Shaktipat, maybe there is something to it. But what has it amounted to? Where is all the enlightenment from all the squillions receiving divine wifi from these holy routers.
If you could transmit enlightenment, we’d all be enlightened by now.
Or is is it nothing more than a mildly pleasant diversion… with lots of projection, imaginings and placebo?
How has it impacted your ‘logic board’ in a permanent way?
I find it hard to believe you’ve swallowed so much guff in your many years of ‘searching’.
*Suggested movie therapy for your ailment – ‘Kumare’.
‘Gee you are you’
- His Holiness Sri sri Satyabigknobaji.
Here’s half an hour of Irene Tweedie. First time I’ve heard her and yes, I like it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dMqPhIqY_k
And another 6 mins. (at right of page):
http://www.thinkingallowed.com/2itwee…
Thx for posting SD. Haven’t imbibed the glasnost yet on tweedjacket.
Good to broaden the discussion on teacheritis pathologies.
Since apart from an extreme radical group of fundies, most ‘orange people, are guru promiscuous, even polymorphously perverse.
Do us a flavour.
Has Gary hit upon a new flavour of crisp?
Russian flame-grilled sufi raiders.
Hopefully not cheesy wotsits and corn chips.
My favorite, monster munch poppa-dom meanies.
Thanks Roman for your post.
There are indeed people who have suffered mental health problems, who now work within the social work field of UK mental health charities, etc! There is an organisation called Mind who strongly believes that only survivors can really help people and seem to only employ such persons.
It has not been my experience. I knew some of these people when I was working within social services some years ago.
Actually some were very unsympathetic and avoided by service users. You dont have to have heard voices to help someone who does, and sometimes it is a hindrance!
Dom’s mood seems to be a bit black. What Dom do you think of the idea that even a false teacher can help cos it is only your own situation you are working on?
Maybe the best model for you Dom is a sort of co-helping situation where, as is the case in “good” marriages where help is a two way process, but at different times.
Parmartha,
One of my closest friends, a sannyasin, had an unexpected attack of multiple sclerosis last year. He is now permanently in a nursing home. He is in his 60′s and will stay there till he departs. Obviously he is helped by a neurologist and other staff who haven’t got ms.
I visit my friend and learn. I leave in tears. There are only a couple of people he can have a conversation with in the home as many suffer from dementia. He may be there for 20 years. I was discussing the issue with his sister yesterday. Consolation is ridiculous. Others have tried it. We both know the score. As he said, ‘This now is my commune’. We both smile, he is in pain. I sit quietly with him.
When I speak with him I have to wait for 5 minutes before he completes his second word. I have learnt not to complete the sentence for him. I will visit him today. He will tell me when he needs his nappies changed and I shall leave. I’m lucky to know this beautiful person. Whose a hero?
Who has courage?
I have another friend who is racing to finish his second major poetry work. Selling 5,000 copies of a poetry is no mean feat. He will die of prostate cancer. I feel honored to have a poem written about me.
It will be one day a little bit shorter than any other day. It won’t be significant.
I had my health problems that’s why I disappeared for awhile. It had nothing to do with the the folk at sannyasnews.
I’m lucky and we are blessed.
‘Black’ Mr. P? I like Hamlet and Johnny Cash, but I’m more bright colours. A party atmosphere, with streamers, multicolored baloons, cream cake and bubbly.
“If you meet the buddha on the road..” and ikkyu, is pure zen.
Rightly you understand, as I have said, the age of the guru is dead, long live the age of the ‘friend’ and co-operative enquiry.
Like the quackers, society of friends. Who needs an intermediary? Is there anything new you haven’t heard before?
Never stop learning until you drop, but giving yourself away to a teacher or guru is past it’s sell-by date, albeit they only really exist as characters in your own mind anyway.
Sure learn from others if you’re drawn, but remain your own authority and best guide, or you’ll end up like… **p***.
It’s the western way. This Indian model has been a fashionable romantic aberration, but is waning and isn’t going to survive the age of the internet.
It’s not brain science, quantum surgery or even differential calculus!
This may well be true for you, Dominic, if it’s where you’re at in your personal, ‘individuation’ process, par for the course at your age, by the way (or so I’m reliably informed).
And it also sounds as if you possibly ‘gave yourself away’ far too much in the past, (perhaps before you were ready?) and thus need to counteract all that, to sort of ‘catch up’, as it were. And/or there may be other aspects of your life that have remained ‘frozen’, undeveloped, unexplored even? If so, I can personally relate to that.
Hence, perhaps, the virulence of your anti-guru standpoint, which, notwithstanding the abusive and/or phoney ones, at times appears to resent the idea that anyone might be a lot further along the ‘spiritual road’ than you and therefore ‘qualified’ to speak with authority, even to you.
But again, your individual standpoint is not necessarily appropriate for everyone, that’s not everyone’s story, everyone’s need. And therein, for me, lies your error.
A born again virgin, compensating for being such a slut when younger.
Is that what your saying SD?
No, Arpana, that’s yours, not mine!
We’re all ploughing our lonely furrow and all I’m questioning is this rejection, this ‘throwing the spiritual teacher baby out with the bathwater’.
Apart from that, good luck to Dominic and his self-reliance. Although aspects of that very ‘self’ might perhaps not always be so reliable when it comes to ‘living the spiritual life’. Not that I’m any sort of example myself, of course.
Congrats Sd for steering clear of personal attack.
A great temptation and fine line on this board.
Nice to see our serial copy/paster coming out a little, even if clawed and barbed.
His normal cloak of invisibility, has more to do with a very strict and fearful upbringing that forbade him to express himself. Hiding behind Osho’s skirts will not save him.
This is the problem with so many seekers and devotees.
Fundamentally a lack of self-love.
Half-way through tweedie’s rap. Good audio quality, good interviewer and I liked the tone in her voice. She seemed heartfelt and sincere.
Communication as they say is 90% non-verbal.
I don’t see spirituality as a competitive sport, where I defer to someone because I deem them more spiritually evolved.
Following a mould doesn’t work, though might offer security.
What you call self-reliance, I call listening to your own inner guru. Surely the goal of all paths, why delay?
If you surrender that authority to an outer guru you are lost, is what I say.
Visit them as much as you like, but if you are listening to yourself I suspect your dependency and consumption will be reduced.
Can you refute my two earlier points, osho’s emotional manipulation re:clothing and buddhists cloning eachother, in the context of think for yourself?
I tend to harp on fault-finding as a balance to redress the in-denial, regressed nature of the devotee and the vast and dark underbelly of gurudom (no pun intended.)
No, I have no interest in refuting either of these points, Dominic.
And as I said before, in terms of “listening to your own inner guru”, you’re preaching to the already converted, as my understanding is that’s the whole object of the exercise!
Although that doesn’t mean I still don’t need plenty of ‘reminders’. Perhaps you don’t? If not, fair enough.
Here’s a reflection from another forum, because we were talking about jean de rooter, and because many sannyasins go to him, he is on the prowl again in india, and because it helps to know I’m not the only one thinking like this.
“Don’t be fooled by John de Ruiter. He has has own special take on everything which he calls his “knowing”. He is completely in love with his tender Christ-like image sprinkled with serious academic philosophy. He will weave a poetic rhetoric that sounds impressive but has no meaning at all. He promises everything and gives nothing. His true message is: he loves himself and he wants you to love him too.
Coming from an orthodox Dutch Christian community (Amish Style) in the Canadian mid west, he dropped out of priest college to the shock of his bible ranting family and decided to become his own “fisher of men and women”.
He has his own unique mystical ideas about Ramana and the mountain but his domain is firmly established in Edmonton, Alberta where he keeps his cult following on a very short leash. His regular trips around the world are recruitment drives for his cult.
John realized that most of his loyal followers will have a use by date when they finally get to see that its all only about John and his Edmonton home. So its important for him to always keep a flow of fresh followers coming in to keep the wheels rolling smoothly and his position and status assured.
He only came to hear about Ramana and Arunachala from a group of disgruntled Osho disciples who advised him that if he wanted to expand his little Edmonton Christian bookshop cult, he should go visit Pune and later on Tiruvanamalai. So he took the advice, he went forth and multiplied. It is no surprise that a decade later, John is returning to his old hunting ground. So watch out readers, he could be hunting for you!”
That’s not my impression of the man at all. I don’t have much to go on, just two public meetings many years ago, where I was ‘energetically impressed’, a book (not yet finished) and a few recently bought tapes (via an ad at SN), but I honestly have no doubt at all he’s the ‘real deal’.
In fact I find him remarkably articulate re the processes of the ‘inner world’, although he has his own ‘jargon’, which has taken a bit of getting used to. I’ve often found I could do with more precise grounding in ‘real life’ events and circumstances, rather than trying to figure out exactly what he’s getting at, eg when he talks about the difference between “what you know is true” and “what you want”. But I think I’m getting the idea now.
One thing though, I do find the way his people at times tend to mimic both his words/’jargon’ and even his manner of talking, his tone of voice, a bit unsettling, even somewhat irritating. Understandable in that intense atmosphere, perhaps, but still somehow ‘suspect’ for me.
Then there are the occasional cathartic ‘howls’ from apparently ‘energetically impressed’ females, which to me comes across as rank ‘self’-indulgence, pleas for attention. I mean, why can’t these people simply ‘keep calm and carry on’? It was good enough during the ‘outer’ war, why not during the ‘inner’ one?!
If he was self reliant he wouldn’t have so much to say here. Hes as attached to Osho as lefties were attached to Thatcher and Shantam is to Jayesh.
Sd.
Here’s a short one of Radha Ma from Tiru, you might like. (Plenty more on youtube, where you can play, spot the sannyassin)
She’s a looker too.
After you’ve watched it, I’ll tell you something. How’s that for a cliffhanger?
http://youtu.be/pZ7sbxRmcTM
Ok, yes, she’s a nice, unpretentious lady.
Now, I’m all eyes and ears for your revelations….
It’s unavoidably sensationalist… but sadly
she dowsed herself in kerosene, then set fire to herself.
“We are stunned and totally shocked by the news that Radha Ma died on Sunday, March 6th 2011, after an act of self-immolation the previous day at her ashram. She was rushed to hospital with 90% burns but doctors could not save her life.
It is rumoured that she left a letter blaming 3 of her former devotees who had become disenchanted with her after real estate problems!
There was also a pending sexual harassment case brought by one of Radha’s devotees against the ashram’s former caretaker. It has even been whispered that Radha was the guiding hand behind the case, which turned into a vicious dogfight. Emails where she threatened Yama (death) to one of her ex-devotees had recently been passed to lawyers.
Her funeral has been held today and it is said she will be interred as a saint. The question arises would a Saint commit suicide and lay the blame at the feet of those who had left the fold? And why was it necessary to kill herself in such a dramatic and painful way over petty legal wrangling?”
My God!
I should have said, “she SEEMS a nice, unpretentious lady”!
I expect you’ll be, er, ‘dining out’ on that story for quite a while, eh, Dominic?
A response to this dramatic story from a friend of mine:
Sadly the very long evolutionary process of the soul, involves many cul de sacs, dead ends and reversals, even when a soul may have apparently ( and I emphasise the word ‘apparently’) reached quite high levels of spiritual understanding, there can be sudden reversals or volcanic eruptios of unconsciousness. The whole process of human and spiritual evolution is such a complex matter .
It is impossible for the vast majority of humanity to ascertain the level of another. God only knows where this Rada ma was at. But it really does indicate that you have to be very, very careful: “All that glisters is not Gold.”
To the last 6 words of which I (SD) would add: ‘both within and without, in oneself and in others’.
“Dining out”
Where are you taking me sd?
My man on the street says,
“enlightenment schmenlightenment, shit happens.”
My own working theory is that a lot of spiritual types are like crack addicts and junkies, searching for the ultimate fix.
Spiritual bypassers, avoiding their humanity with sought after expanded states.
Often stunted and stuck at the emotional level, and a bit clueless to what’s going on and trapped in reactivity.
This gets magnified in teachus who live in an isolated and elevated bubble.
I don’t know about Radha Ma, guess she had “issues.” She planned it, there was a letter.
My little devil is thinking, “there’s a few more I can think of, I wish would spontaneously combust.”
dominic (11.january at 11.39 pm)
friend
you ve been posting
that s how i feel it
a trauma-flatliner and by that i mean if all the possibilities of SEEING fall flat so to say and there seems to be no way out
and as well no way to dignify oneself as well others
i KNOW these trauma flat liners very well
and i can convey to you
thousands and more thousands of very private diary sites of mine….go to that account
what
by the way
has been and is thoroughly ABUSED by people of your kind
that brought me no-where and that brought me HERE
too – up to the moment i am sitting here trying to reach your heart on a virtual “caravanserai….”
just now
besides assuring you that i DO know
what and how you are talking about very bumpiness of inter-relating happenings in the sannyas-ex-sannyas realms up to to being victimized and thoroughly abused
just NOW
i want to tell you
that i never ever disqualified for example
“the gachamies”
as a kind of remembering day to day
and morning to evening
that a river flows towards the ocean and not vive VERSA
or other way said
that we all better bow down or learn to bow down to an energy which is bigger than us and in which we all are embedded
it s a hearts-intelligence to do so while “doing” is not the right word for it
we all are failures the one and the other kinds
aren t we ????
we all are fellow-travellors
aren t we ???
and for sure we are not ought to be dump and dull and obedient slaves to that kind of force -
that s dignity
bevor i am stumbeling about too many words of mine
may be better to stop here
the morning is cold and bright here
if a make it i am going to see a movie today
friends donated to the life of an old women
i have been invited to come for the premiere
i wish you well dominic
and i am wishing well myself too
as well as i am wishing well all the others visiting this caravanserai
so
may all of us
have a beautiful day
wherever we are in the bodies…
love
madhu
Madhu,
It’s easy to crack under all the posting pressure.
I half suspected my posts might have side effects, induce coma or vomiting, but a trauma flatliner?
Still unsure what this is but I hope the paramedics were able to defib you, and get you to the ER in time.
My babel fish cannot translate this frantzenese.
Me and my ‘kind’ should come with a health warning, is that it?
Can’t disagree with that.
aahhhh aaahhhh dominic (your post 12. january at 9.44)
ah no
NO
no
no
you didn t shoot in your both feet again-
as you imagined AND did put that in paranthese….. as though you would like even to even more enforce such a cruel vision as well as on yourself as well as on the readers of your post
who
as far as i am concerned not only wish you well as wish your feet well
and also
i confess
wishing the energy we call “buddha” well
the energy
as well as your potential
as well as the potential of others !
to meet
oneself as well as others
on the virtual tracks of a virtual caravanserai
not easy
not easy
at
all
but if we
all of us
would like it the mere entertainment and events-way
we would t post HERE ???? wouldn t we ????
and YET
we all all not sooooo special as we all like to be
thats a hard one
but as the fellow-travellors here at this place
seem to be quite acquainted with the one or the other or MORE that that
frustration or hurt….
……………..
thank you
for giving me a chance
of some dance-balancing exercise
and i want to invite you to the dance too ???
we don t have to perform for a jury…that s the beauty of the special virtual situation
BUT…..
yours sincerely –
madhu
well – dominic (12.january at 10.24 pm)
well
i gave it a try to reach you
can see clearly after your answer that i failed -
we are not at a spiritual vanity fair
aren t we ???
so
have a nice day
an me
have a nice day too
madhu
i
I am clearly beyond help!
Please light a candle and keep me in your prayers.
“For I am a bear of very little brain…”
“we are not at a spiritual vanity fair
aren t we ???”
A double negative. Implying that we are at a vanity fair? I see. Clever!
satyadeva – (13.january at 1.20 am)
in gratitude for your sharing a sharing a sharing….
i felt so much “home”
in the home-”office” this early morning
sun is clear and bright this winter morning
the clouds changing forms and forms
and have a shimmer of rose and apricot
while the big painter choose in the midst of light blue also turquoise
for the background
that too will be gone soon too
the miracle of a painting ALIFE
i am in wonder
madhu
good morning arpana, satyadeva
better to be aware
no “born again virgins” in sight
no “sluts” either
but such a lot of fatal distorted “recyclings” of phantasies and fairy tales
having effects on a everyday s uncivilized manner to inter-relate both the sexes…
we all have been meant when seeing the quote (1990, india)
“you haven t seen nothing yet…”
pain sharpens the view
sometimes also distorts the view
after all pain is a strong remedy
as well as joy – by the way -
as well as waking up from utopian phantasies was a very strong remedy for me
helpless i found myself after decades of retirement so to say
out in the streets for “SLUT-WALK” as an aged women
with women of all ages
refering to the fakt
that civilized progress concerning the violence (rapture of all kinds) towards women
has not happened yet
strong experience was that
i have not been welcomed by most of the groups
joining the slut-walk here in munic
and i could well understand that
yet
i have been walking with the others
same
when i found myself walking on the streets again
in the years before during and after irak-war and all its after happenings
i walked my pain so to say
the pain of loosing rests and rests of utopian phantasies that changes of major kind had been already have happened
that seemingly
is
not
so –
why am i writing this ??? here ????
may be just to say
hello – out there-
another of mornings just shedding the first light on the trees and meadows
today s morning sound special
some birds came by for concert whom i didn t hear quite some weeks
it s more cold outside today than the last days s mornings
in the united states there may be more warmths though then and that is needed
we are connected
if we realize it or not
share with you my morning prayer of human conditioning
and in the trust too
that there may be the possibility of meeting the one or the other fellowtravellor
in that resting place of that caravanserai
to share some virtual tea with
as a warm wake up
and a chit-chat of sharing too
like the birds just now-here-outside – so – just-like-this -
not more and also not less
love
madhu
I noticed your morning and you.
‘Nice to see our serial copy/paster coming out a little, even if clawed and barbed. His normal cloak of invisibility, has more to do with a very strict and fearful upbringing that forbade him to express himself. ‘
Dominic.
This is projection.
Although I am a hook for the strict and fearful upbringings remarks,.
My father was totally committed to ensuring I knew I was excrement, not fit to live, on a daily basis., throughout my childhood.
Fortunately I got into Osho and Meditation, and I am no longer in danger of being dragged backwards by someone like you.
Need I say more. I feel your pain.
The aggression, the getting it right with osho quotes and hiding,
is your protection.
This from the guy who kops out over every challenge,
and hides behind having the last word.
I have a feeling you meant I feel your pain sincerely.
Okey dokey.
Sometimes I seem to wake up grumpy.
Other times I just let him be.
thank you – parmatha,
thank you for posting that photo too
it s late evening now
and i have evening herb tee just now
to get
may be ready for sleep relaxation
have been looking into the “caravanserai” after seeing two videos in tv-arte
about the war-times OCEAN-wise in the constant war dealing with power around oil and sea tracks piraterie and what not…
the people living in that zone
being by majority so poor as poor can be
the world-war -mongers dictating one can say in a way also their criminal piraterie actings
and sometimes it feels
there is not really a way out
we are living in very turbulent times
also when we seemingly are living far away from these zones
to have it warm in winter and the fridge functioning in summer times though
is only one aspect
of connection
the human figure
the man in the photo
you posted
seemingly be out of that all
and yet not
both
-other aspects of an indian “dreamtime”
thank you
madhu
beloved satyadeva (14 january 11.58 pm)
and thank you for your strong REMINDER
the last three lines – of your comment -
so good to be reminded that way
thank you
yoga sudha and some memory popped up… of the everlasting “past”
it was when she said to me
aaaahhhh a bliss attack again ???
and we were were heartingly laughing together
before then the whole carrousel turned again and we lost (?) track of each other
- kind of mystic rose meditation happening in a few seconds….
before the time that was installed -
bright morning sky here at my place satyadeva
SUNNY
cold outside
a very thin layer of snow on the lawn outside
i may have to use my walking sticks to reach my outdoor appointment of the day
the little birds hide and probably look my bigger hiding in between the branches because of their capacity to use their feathers as a “daunendecke” to warm up
they don t sing
may be not to catch a cold by tschirping….
may it be warm for you
wherever you are in the body
madhu
So you knew Sudha, Madhu? She introduced me to dynamic and Osho, back in April,’73 and was a big influence on me around then. Met her by chance at Cairo airport on my way to Poona the next year (she was returning to London), then lost track of her until I last came across her in Oregon, sitting right behind me in the first ‘Satsang’ of the annual Celebration, July,’83. What coincidences! A person worth remembering.
@Dom & SD
I found this short Podcast that touches upon the suicide of an ‘enlightened one’
http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2007/03/bg-009-enlightened-teachers/
Oh.. btw Dom, you had your chance…
http://i.imgur.com/mC4Hg1L.jpg
Thx Anu, the bliss of Nerdvana. I shall add it to the pile.
Nice picture of the Mrs or is it a selfie of you, all glammed up?
You just don’t know on the interweb.
Prem Kabir, it is one of the human weaknesses, one of the deep-rooted frailties, to seek attention.
The reason one seeks attention is because one does not know oneself. It is only in other people’s eyes one can see his face, in their opinions he can find his personality. What they say matters immensely. If they neglect him, ignore him, he feels lost. If you pass by and nobody takes any attention, you will start losing what you have put together — your personality. It is something that you have put together. You have not discovered it, it is not natural. It is very artificial and very arbitrary.
Osho.
The Great Pilgrimage: From Here to Here
Chapter #1
Chapter title: The great pilgrimage: from here to here