OSHO: THE CONTRADICTORY MAN, THE MYTH, HIS LEGACY , HIS SANNYASINS AND SANNYASNEWS

‘Nobody is here to fulfil your dream.’ Osho

‘I leave you my dream.’ Osho

‘You might say I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one.’ John Lennon

During the seven wonderful years I spent with Osho,1974-1981, I underwent one of the steepest learning/unlearning curves of my 62 years of existence. I haven’t always felt gratitude for that time in my life. I do now. Amongst many other things, I feel grateful for being freed from the many pitfalls encountered when devoting time to a guru, in order to learn what that most mysterious of relationships is all about…and yes I know that Osho said the relationship was only from our side, because he was not. Nonetheless, a relationship did exist, be it one-sided or not.
When I first met Osho, in February 1974, I was opposed to the idea of surrendering to an Indian Guru. My generation had, for instance, learned from the Beatles about their much publicised relationship with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and the ensuing scandals. On the other hand, psychedelics had opened my eyes to the fact that there is more to life than meets the uninitiated eye and due to influential books, like Paramahansa’s Autobiography of a Yogi and Ram Dass’s Be Here Now, the answers to life’s deeper questions, and the possibility of protracted states of drug free bliss apparently lay at the feet of Indian mystics. So, in a mystical nutshell, that is how I wound up sitting, looking up into Osho’s bottomless eyes on the back porch of Lao-Tzu house in the company of a dozen or so beautiful people.
Osho did not bother to ask me if I wanted to take sannyas. He just chuckled, dropped the mala over my head and told me my new name along with its significance. It was an unforgettable moment. I really felt like I was gaining admittance to the guru’s spiritual family. I felt privileged, knowing in my heart I must have gotten something very right in order for this to have happened. I’d finally arrived home after a seemingly endless journey and it was extremely intimate. Such impressions remained with me for about 4 years, by which time Osho had gone mainstream and personal access to him had been curtailed in the extreme. This did not affect the feelings of love and reverence I held in my heart for Osho and still do to this day.

Was Osho enlightened? That depends on what your personal definition of enlightenment is. If one looks the adjective up in a dictionary you are liable to find something along the lines of: having or showing a rational, modern, and well informed outlook. In that case I would say, yes, Osho was definitely enlightened. If one starts to compare him to the likes of say Buddha, Christ, Krishna etc., which he often did himself, I’d have to say that is definitely stretching the imagination’s elastic a bit. Osho was somehow too human to enter the league of such distinguished gentlemen.

During my early teens, my mother, who was quite a wise woman in her own right, advised me that, if I wanted to know who someone really is, do not listen to their words, but rather observe their actions. On that level Osho was an extremely contradictory man. Yes, like the rest of you, I know his rap about being contradictory in order to be in tune with life’s contradictory nature. However, many of the contradictions in Osho’s life were such that it was obvious that the man was not practising what he preached. One simple example of what I’m driving at is contained within the following anecdote. During the mid-seventies the ashram was a hive of physical activity. Buddha Hall was undergoing major renovations, which meant the place was filled with a veritable cacophony of sound, hammers, electric power tools, saws etc. In the middle of this there was a ten day meditation camp going on. People complained and Osho spoke about it in discourse, in a Buddha Hall that had fallen temporarily silent except for his amplified voice. His response ran along the lines of one’s meditation was not going deep if a few worker’s tools could disturb it. We all nodded sagely upon hearing this pearl of wisdom. Round about the same time it came to my ears that Osho had complained to the guards that children playing in the ashram’s precincts had been making a noise and he wanted it to stop…permanently! Draw your own conclusions.

Osho was great with kids but I suspect that he really did not have much time for them. Just like the adults he had his favourites. Siddhartha was number one and Osho declared him to be a Buddha. We lapped it up and as little Sid was friends with my son we were occasionally blessed with the wee enlightened one’s presence in our humble hut. As it was to pan out Sid grew into quite a complex personality none of whose traits could be described as Buddha-like. So much for the master’s crystal ball. It was malfunctioning. Yet he kept up the sham of young Sid being a Buddha for years, when it fact it was a piece of fabricated, sensationalistic nonsense. The point is, Osho often said things that sounded very enlightened, but they turned out not to be, no more so than when applied to his personal life. A prime example of this was Osho’s attitude towards drug use. Of the hundreds of people who talked to Osho, when I happened to be present, only one received Osho’s blessings in regards to their indulgence in drugs. For the rest it was a blunt ‘drop it!’ The premise being that drugs moved one in the opposite direction of meditation. Yet, as we all know, Osho succumbed to the temptation of drugs himself, building up a dependence on laughing gas and prescription tranquillizers. How does that fit in with an anti-drug stance and being enlightened? Who was getting high if, as he often proclaimed, there was nobody to get high.? It’s always puzzled me why Osho went for the gas. From my own experience the sensational high soon deteriorates into a very sore head. Yet the master of masters consumed dozen of steel bottles of the stuff. Whatever way own looks it it this is very hypocritical behaviour. So very human.

Which brings us to the mythological aspects of Osho’s life. I was alerted to the substantial myths that are currently mushrooming about Osho here on SN, when I read some idiot raving on about how the spiritually blind could not feel Osho’s energy throbbing from a small box, containing Osho’s toe nail clippings. I’d like to set the record straight on such bullshit.

I’ve had the good fortune to meet many remarkable men and women in my wandering life. On the energetic level I’ve never met anyone who comes remotely close to Osho. I don’t know how it happened but he was indeed a vehicle for an energy force best described as cosmic, divine, pure love etc. Absolutely amazing! I’ll stick to my own experience in saying that it was not difficult for him to read another person’s mind and I know for certain that he was able to travel long distances without his body leaving his bedroom. Osho was not and is not omnipresent and if you feel that you have direct contact in some manner with him today I suggest that you contact a psychiatrist. If for no other reason I say this because Osho claimed that he would merge with universal consciousness etc. at the end of his life, and therefore no signature of individuality would be left. Anyone remember the way of the white cloud? That is not to say that you cannot experience a connectivity with the whole, reality, oneness etc. It’s just that the need to label such an experience as having something to do with Osho, in the form of some kind of divine personality, who causes such things to happen, is childish. Yes, I know that Jesus called God ‘Daddy’ but he was a special case. If one can’t step out of such an obsolete mind set it might be a good idea to visit a therapist who deals with cult casualties.

Therapy. Now there is a touchy subject in Sannyasville. Although most Indian sannyasins will disagree vehemently, the therapy period, during the seventies in Poona One, was a very significant and important stage in Osho’s work. It was powerful medicine and the Indian sannyasins missed out because they were basically not ready for it and I do not mean that in a negative way.. Osho was no fool when it came to such matters and he handled the whole thing with expertise and above all diplomacy. When I arrived in Poona back in 74 I did so with many of my contemporaries. Time has shown me that in general the ones who did not run the therapy gamut in Poona One did not fare as well, upon returning to the world, as the ones who did. The basic premise, as I see it, was that in order to build a temple for the spirit one needs to construct a strong foundation, which means amongst other things to get rid of the rot in the basement of the unconscious. I’m currently reading a book on child psychology that explains how important the first 6 years our lives are in forming our life script. It is shocking because the odds for us having a healthy and happy life are heavily stacked against us, basically because the fucked up parents fuck up the children. Therapy can and does break this vicious cycle. The two dozen or so groups I participated in during Poona One, and the supportive environment, helped me tremendously on my journey through life. One only needs to read the headlines about New Delhi being the rape capital of the world to understand what a can of worms Osho would have opened, had he allowed Indians to join no-holds-barred encounter groups. Instead, he nurtured the Indian sannyasin’s personality and racial characteristics that were already well grounded in their hearts, namely love, devotion and surrender. As it turns out it appears to be a bit of a mixed blessing. I say this because being grounded so much in one’s feelings and emotions can make one blind to certain things in life that are best approached by using logic, even taking into account that some see ‘intellectual’ as being a dirty word in Sannyaspeak, due mainly to Osho’s influence, – somewhat contradictory seeing as how Osho had a highly developed intellect himself. Western sannyasins also got carried away with their surrender trip and thus, for example, a blind spiritual eye caused much of the débâcle that was the Ranch (The Rajneeshpuram commune, 81-85). . Only a few had the guts to use their heads and protest against the absurdities that were taking place. The price paid for this was expulsion from the commune..
Today, we have imposters claiming to be channelling Osho’s energy etc. Total nonsense. We also have those claiming to be carrying on Osho’s legacy, when in fact he never really left one. There is very little evidence existing that pertains to such a thing in Osho’s words and there would have been had he felt it as important as others obviously do. Yet these con artists say that they know the inside story, that they are special and so forth.

In regards to people Osho was a great social experimenter. He had his successes and he had his failures, which is entirely in tune with the nature of experimentation. To build a legacy that can lift the consciousness of mankind by reading his books and practising his meditation techniques is pure fantasy. There is much to be gleaned from Osho’s words, but it might be wise to consider that Osho did not actually practise much of what he preached. Perhaps because Osho was a great practitioner of plagiarism; his genius lying in his great skill at synthesizing others’ ideas into something that altogether transcended the original concepts. Osho’s meditation techniques also grew out of this ability and they are brilliant, but they are not the end of the story, but rather a stepping stone towards real meditation, which is bringing awareness into the small and great acts that compose our lives. Jumping up and down going hoo-hoo-hoo every morning is not meant for that but rather introducing one to it. Besides, in the long run, it will damage your knees. In Poona One people who did not progress from Osho’s active meditation techniques to worship (meditation in action) were eventually viewed as being stuck. Therefore those that advocate doing one Osho meditation a day and brainwashing oneself by listening to his discourses daily really are out of touch with the big picture. I’ve observed people who actually practise this and almost all of them are dull and have little to say for themselves that is authentic. As one can clearly see from reading people’s comments on SN, who constantly copy and paste Osho quotes, it is possible to find a quote suitable for almost every argument, including my own. The danger is that using Osho to back up your own point of view is that your vision will lack clarity and definition when challenged by any intelligent person. In that context SN is a great site for honing one’s communication and debating skills, not forgetting one’s sense of humour. It is a pity that so few take advantage of this possibility. Some, of course, do, while others prefer to push their own agenda with little heed for what their detractors say. Then there are the faceless readers who never bother or are too self-conscious to drop us a line.

Meanwhile, in La-la Land, the myths surrounding Osho will continue to build, because people have the need to create some kind of ever-present authoritarian big brother in their lives. Herein lies one of the problems of introducing a guru into your life…you can project absolutely anything on to their wise faces. I ask you, do you honestly need that or is it just a throwback to childhood? I believe, in spite of his need for adulation, Osho wished in his heart for us to be free, which also included being free of him.

Osho was a remarkable man with much to impart. One thing he was not was some kind of all-seeing super man. Osho was a man. Those that do not see that will miss much of what he had to offer in purely human terms. He was and still can be a great teacher in regards remaining sane in a insane world. Although it’s a matter of conjecture as to what might have become of him had he followed his own wise counsel, especially in regards overindulgence in mind and mood-altering substances.

It was a great boon to be with Osho when one could still talk to him face-to-face. In such a situation there was little room for fantasy or deceit because under the penetrating gaze of his eyes it was very difficult to get away with that. Now that the tiger is gone the mice and those jumping on the Osho clone bandwagon will continue to play their games and use a dead guru as leverage to project their ego trip. Fortunately, there are many among us who can see this clearly and SN is one of the best platforms for allowing these individuals to air their views and hopefully deliver a more complete picture of Osho and his sannyasins. My prediction is that SN will increasingly become a focus of attention for those who are new to Osho and wishing a more coherent vision of who and what he actually was. On that level we should all say a word of thanks to the editors for creating SN and keeping the show running. Namaste and a very happy, healthy and prosperous 2014.

Lokesh

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476 Responses to OSHO: THE CONTRADICTORY MAN, THE MYTH, HIS LEGACY , HIS SANNYASINS AND SANNYASNEWS

  1. shantam prem says:

    Thesis of a philosophy graduate for his master´s degree!
    Surely it is a laborious work but is it inspiring, motivating, uplifting?

    • frank says:

      lokesh,
      its an interesting piece.
      I enjoyed reading it.
      ta.

      shantam,you ask whether it is inspiring and uplifting.
      I can only say…..compared to your garbled attempts at prose,or rather proz-ac `writing`,which inspires about as much as a corpse on a broken down life-support system in a power cut,
      and is about as uplifting as a worn out piece of string tied below a pair of swinging,sagging over-ripe mangoes in one of your favourite granny porn movies…
      yes!

      • Lokesh says:

        Thanks, Frank. I must admit to having felt a little self conscious about submitting my wee ditty, but then I thought why not? My views are not fixed and I enjoy writing about such topics. I was bored with all the resort management argy bargy…just not my cup of green tea. I’m just wondering when the clones will attack. Can’t wait. I’m really hoping Captain Clingon puts in an appearance. Always good for a laugh.

        (MOD: WE’VE HAD TO DISALLOW ONE OR TWO RECENT POSTS BY THE SOURCE YOU REFER TO, LOKESH, AS THEY WERE ONLY REPEATING WHAT HAD ALREADY BEEN SAID A DAY OR TWO BEFORE, INCLUDING MAKING SIMILARLY GRATUITOUSLY DEROGATORY REMARKS ABOUT CERTAIN CONTRIBUTORS HERE. IN OTHER WORDS CONTRIBUTING NOTHING OF WORTH TO THE DISCUSSION).

  2. shantam prem says:

    If you cannot talk with Osho face to face, then find your own Osho. There must be few hundred in the population of few Billions?
    It is a hard fact and truth. Extraordinary young chic or milf on a video cannot be your girlfriend or wife; how come someone just in the video can become your master?
    Valid points, are not they?

    But before one starts with Osho, is it not appropriate to take the old strains of Jesus, Buddha and others away from the heart of the humanity?

    And let me make it clear, Osho´s work was not to become a deity but a coach who sees people playing the game of life in his grounds. He was the initiator of an inner cricket, football, hockey tennis…

    • frank says:

      as far as inner cricket is concerned,it
      sounds like you might have managed to place your short leg in the crease a couple of times,but I doubt whether you ever managed to bowl a maiden over.
      mind you, you are definitely the master of the wrist spin and the full toss and your middle stump has taken quite a beating,for sure.
      at the end of the day,sadly,it seems to be a case of `brain stopped play`.

  3. Fresch says:

    It’s very uplifting and inspirational. Words are powerful, you cannot deny it Lokesh. I am going to sit in my cave and write some of my own words for this one and only transparent and free (for expression) meeting place.

  4. Kavita says:

    a swimming facilitator who actually facilitates to float !

  5. Preetam says:

    What Master can do with those seekers for enlightenment, he gives them toys.. Finder understand if he asked the value question.

    • Preetam says:

      Kavita, pardon me hijacking “Finder”. Like your “Seeker and Finder” description you once made.

  6. Fresch says:

    First, I love reading people’s stories with Osho. Not the only ones with whom he was close. That is actually a bit turn off just reading some “stars” like Shunio’s or Devageet’s books because they write only the beautiful side of it and then it’s really the whole story (or life as it is) at all. And same goes with top therapists who actually are selling their groups with the books. It’s kind of Arabian taleban art, not really art or any literature. Not life. It’s the same with voyages stories, I would be interested in living people or if then dead people, their true, interesting stories from many sides.

    But, thank you Lokesh. This had intensity and sincerity. It’s also not only some history, path of events, but you are writing from here and now.
    This lack of freedom to expres has been such complex story. I agree that perhaps osho put some regulations when it suited him. For example sanyas authorities always say Osho did not want any dirty laundy to be washed in public. At the same time he was saying the failure in Ranch was everybody’s fault, because no one spoke up. How could it be if people were (and still are) never allowed to say anything about anything? How could it be possible to take any responsibitity if there is no freedom of speech what so ever?
    I am not always brilliant, I am afraid so. But if I had to be afraid of some humiliating apology policies or banning at reasonable level of sometimes perhaps unconscious plapla (from me), it would be just unbearable totalitarian situation. That is cult stuff. And just every parent knows that if you only make your child to say I am sorry and never do it your self, you just do a lot of harm there. This has been like one of the vicious practices among sanyasins (not just pune, but all over), rigid, harmful and old-fashioned cult stuff. This is the reason why I also appreciate SN, let’s be normal, sometimes we are able to express something valuable, much of the time is pure garbage. So what. So, for me the biggest obstacle and irritating point with osho and sanyas is lack of transparency at all levels. No educated young people would be interested in any old authorative taleban cult…just not interesting.

    I had the fortune to come to osho a month before he left his body. New people are always like “wow, you met osho personally”. It was not like that wow, I was totally overwhelmed in some kind of fan movie with him, I was very space out, young and perhaps just stupid imagining all kinds of stuff happening. Lokesh writes, “Osho said the relationship was only from our side, because he was not. Nonetheless, a relationship did exist, be it one-sided or not”. This is mystery for me. Perhaps my projections and feelings are me creating relationship with him (over the years many different ones). But his words, meditations and energy are his relationship (one-sided) with me. Seems one-sided and at the same time interrelated in a contra dictionary way. You Lokesh and many others were fortunate to experience Osho as energy phenomenon. Perhaps that what really your own energy phenomenon, it was happening inside you, wasn’t it? Perhaps somebody else what not feeling anything special in the same situation with Osho.

    So, this is the biggest reason I am nobody to say for example what and how new people experience with osho, even just by words and videos. So, I would be interested in people’s stories/connection with Osho, even without physical, personal one to one connection. If you look at the sky, there are no written words of Osho or anybody else there. Meditations is just nobody’s copyright, that is clear. Iwanted to write about the words and much more, but teenagers are demanding food and I need get out from the cave and to cook for them. So these were is some quick reflections.

    • Lokesh says:

      I enjoyed this post, Fresch. To be more specific I enjoy your sincerity. You conclude, ‘ Perhaps that what really your own energy phenomenon, it was happening inside you, wasn’t it?’
      Yes. Isn’t that how it is? We need gurus on the outside only so long as we harbour a need to project. Osho, of course, understood this and allowed others to use him as a convenent and suitable screen, waiting patiently for people to wise up. Patience is a prerequisite in the guru game.

  7. Fresch says:

    And if somebody says “we are just following Osho’s guidelines”, it’s just stupid same copy paste –way of hiding, avoiding responsibility and just being cunning and manipulative.

    • Ashok says:

      Ah yes by crikey ‘the Word of the Lord’, (of which ‘Osho’s Guidelines’ is a version), the favoured retort of both the cowardly unscrupulous scoundrel and religious fundamentalist bonzo dog! Several fa’silly-taters(facilitators, Ed.), I ‘encountered’ whilst hunting in Poonah, attempted to throw me off the trail by desperately spewing up that nonsense. Driven back into their lairs, their savage and primitive natural defense mechanisms instinctively took over to no effect!

      Another defence tactic used by various and assorted slippery eels in Poonah ponds and elsewhere (esp. Humaniversity jungles), when experiencing pressure thru valid complaint or criticism, goes something like “Maybe you need to take a look at/responsibility for yourself.”, as I fondly recall.

      What a load of defensive, irresponsible face-saving garbage! Who do they think they are kidding? Maybe themselves I would wager?

  8. Fresch says:

    I see I make several writing mistakes, sorry about that.

    • dominic says:

      Stay behind after class.
      Also can recommend my
      “Write more good and fanny Hinglisch.
      Vol 2 with extra fanny and juicy bits.”
      Buy a copy and get a free Shantypants babelfish ‘no-mind no-sense’ converter and shredder.

  9. shantam prem says:

    ” If one starts to compare him to the likes of say Buddha, Christ, Krishna etc., which he often did himself, I’d have to say that is definitely stretching the imagination’s elastic a bit. Osho was somehow too human to enter the league of such distinguished gentlemen.”
    Do these distinguished gentlemen named Buddha, Christ, Krishna were less human and more godly than Osho?
    Fact is these gentlemen became extraordinary distinguished because Belief industry has invested Billions of human years to build their brand values.
    And in that sense, in spite of His efforts, Osho is not a part of posthumously blue chip brands and will never be. That chance is lost.
    Can someone revive Orkut?
    Can Nokia be part of smart generations thumb, eyes and ears.

    • satyadeva says:

      “In spite of his efforts”, yes, Shantam – and also because of all the scandal surrounding both him and his people.

      I mean, you just don’t get to be a top rank mainstream ‘avatar’ with his track record of drug indulgence, let alone all the other stuff, do you?

      Unless times and the human race radically change…

      Nah, no chance, mate!

      Good thing really though as it’ll mean the attempts of fundamentalists to elevate Osho to the ranks of ‘founder of a religion’ are doomed to fail. If you don’t understand why that’s a good thing by now, Shantam, then perhaps you never will.

  10. frank says:

    and who really knows what sort of dudes Krishna Jesus and Buddha were?
    according to the bible,jesus was an illegal hooch brewer,donkey thief and hooligan,
    krishna with his 60000 wives was obviously a sex addict,and was a mass murderer,to boot.
    and according to recent research,Buddha was a bit of a trouble maker who ended up dying eating a bacon butty spiked by a rival gang.

    the zen boys nailed it…..
    “nothing is as it seems
    nor is it otherwise”

    • dominic says:

      Well everything was better and more holy in the past, especially as you get older… (I’m turning into my dad.)
      Life was more simple, you knew where you were, no internet or Jesassnews to dish the dirt on those miracles and what really went on in those boys clubs.
      Why do they have to keep messing about with it, bringing in all this complexity and forcing me to think?
      Damn you internet! You are satan’s spawn!

      Yeah they left us their dream and what a nightmare it’s been.

  11. neerav says:

    so long, so boring… full of crap! reflects a very confused , scattered mentality.

    • satyadeva says:

      Please specify the “crap”, Neerav, if possible. Alternatively, list whatever is ‘ok’ so that we can then know what you’re referring to, by a process of elimination (as it were!).

      • Lokesh says:

        I believe Neerav might be referring to some of Osho’s later discourses. You know, the ones when he was rattling on about Ronald Raygun for hours on end.
        Recently talked to a friend who was filming Osho towards his final exit. According to him Osho was experiencing difficulty walking and kept banging into things. Tragic ending for such a wonderful fellow. There seems to be some debate as to the truth of Osho’s last words being, ‘I leave you my dream.’ Personally I believe it, but as Neerav says Osho’s mental faculties may well have been confused and scattered due to his debilitated physical condition. Still, I find it derogatory to say a great man like Osho was full of crap. Some people have no respect!

    • dominic says:

      So short, so wrong… a reasoned argument or some biting grumpy git wit would be nice. Or is it poisonal…?

  12. shantam prem says:

    Osho has so many bloods scandles, drug abuse, downright materialist, propagated sham marriages to clear immigration hurdles…
    Satya Deva, will not it be joyful for you to share your thoughts with the disciples of clean sober and sandalwood perfumed people with flowers of marigold around their neck?
    I can criticise Jayesh and his regime, still in any given day, I will choose to be around them.

    ” Oh beloved, I am sorry to go different way. I know we won´t be together again. but still is it possible I visit once in a while to sniff your clothes in the washing basket”
    Swami Neither here Nor there.

    • satyadeva says:

      Hilarious, Shantam, you certainly come out with some funny old images…

      For the sake of clarity, please note, however, that I wasn’t taking sides there, I’m not interested in spreading a ‘moral judgment’ at all, just noting the simple fact and drawing an equally simple logical conclusion.

  13. shantam prem says:

    neerav says:
    so long, so boring… full of crap! reflects a very confused , scattered mentality.
    Shantam says:
    So long, very interesting…….full of opinion personalised! reflects a very clear and stable mentality like millions of stable lower middle class men who reach to the level of upper middle class.

  14. dominic says:

    It now seems to be a truism that gurus have feet, hands and usually dicks of clay. Are there any exceptions to this rule?
    Perhaps they are all instruments of the divine and life is trying to tell us to come back to ourselves instead of projecting outwardly.
    Well that’s the text message I’m getting anyway…lol

    • satyadeva says:

      Well, I’m no expert on gurus/teachers/Masters but two immediately come to mind about whom, as far as I know, there’s never been a single whiff of scandal etc:

      Meher Baba and Mother Meera.

      Perhaps partly because they were/are silent most of the time?

      I take it, Dominic, that you don’t accept that a ‘fully realised’ individual can confer spiritual ‘benefits’ via sexual intercourse? Very hard to accept (no play on words intended) for the male partner of the woman involved of course…Probably for most of us the biggest button that could conceivably be pressed. But who said life was easy?

      Personally, I can accept this sort of thing ‘in principle’, ie that there might well be authentic tantric masters around – probably very, very, very few (but very, very, very many self-serving phoneys) – whose lovemaking can significantly raise the consciousness of a woman…But in my own actual life, when it’s my partner involved, well…I reckon it would be, “Could you possibly have a headache on the day, do you think, dear, please?!”

      • dominic says:

        Well they have both declared themselves Avatars for the age. Now I’ve seen the movie and they don’t look na’avi or seem to know where the unobtanium is to me.
        Mother Eywa!… Avatars? More like sad gurus!
        Take the red pill SD.

        “spiritual ‘benefits’ via sexual intercourse”
        Sure SD that’s what I tell all the girls. I’m a boner fido tantric lovepump. Works for the over 50s.
        Are you feeling frisky tonite, sexsmithie?

        • satyadeva says:

          You’re too cynical, Dominic. I’m with you up to a point, but no further.

          What do you know of Meher Baba or of Mother Meera, for example? Sounds rather like Arpana’s Belief-Bias Effect to me.

          And as for the sex thing, well, as I said, that’s kinda the, er, ‘bottom line’, is it not?!

          If this is what ‘individuation’ entails for you, then who can argue? But perhaps you might just not be as clear about some things as you’d like to think. Too many red pills (whatever they are) perhaps?!

          • dominic says:

            Fair dos SD.
            Conversely, you seem starry-eyed and dreamy to me, and swallowing a lot of esoteric wankery.
            I’ve seen mother meera and deruiter etc. btw.
            It’s just bad theatre to me now. Sure there’s moodmaking but I can’t take it seriously and it merits sending up.

            What are you really looking for out there?
            To be momentarily hypnotised and lifted out of yourself?
            To feel a soothing ambience or gaze to rub balm on an aching heart?
            Searching for the perfect mother or father figure to to nurse you, tell you a story and take you home?
            To feel so worthless and lacking in yourself that you give your spiritual power away to others?
            To always be seeking never arriving?
            To be driven by fear and it’s handmaiden control, wanting systems and certainty?
            Nothing you think these ‘avatars’ have you can’t give to yourself.
            Not a question of being clear, but the drivenness and need to be patronised starts to dissolve when you… well I’ll stop there.

        • dominic says:

          You see SD, words like master or avatar, I cannot say or believe in. They smack of grandiosity and personality cult, wanting to be worshipped and recognised, as a special case divine embodiment.
          To me it’s as much a disqualifier as any scandal, to seek this level of elevation, and a hindrance to what it purports to offer.
          To big up ‘avatars’ or perfect masters who are dead and who I’m assuming you never met, like Meher Baba, is another rung down the belief quagmire.
          And a 5 second staring contest with mother meera doesn’t do it for me either.
          Sannyas attracts an unhealthy personality cult mentality, which after Osho, simply got transferred onto the next delusional narcissist seeking adulation.
          Jean de Ruiter is a one. Apart from the scandal and messiah complex, his poseur confused ramblings and ‘seances’ are laughable, but the girls of course are literally all over him. Maybe if he had tits I’d go for him too. Good career move for a backwoods canadian jesus freak oik. And anyone who needs to hunt animals for kicks is beyond the pale, if that is true.
          The satsang movement after osho was a refreshing change, because it was more ostensibly concerned with ‘truth’ rather than personality cults, but it’s just more subtle and also encourages a lot of “spiritual bypassing”.
          Best guru is the 24/7 one.
          But hey, different strokes… whatever floats your boat… etc.

          • dominic says:

            Perhaps to paraphrase The Prophet John, psalm 56 verse 4, this sunday…
            “Avatar, Guru, Master, Enlightenment is a concept by which we measure our own pain”

  15. Anand Newman says:

    Lokesh,
    Very happy and prosperous 2014 to you too and all our friends here at SN. Thanks to SN team for their service and commitment.

    According to Osho, he got enlightened ( what ever it is called) in his early twenties. Then he had a choice whether to go share with the world or just enjoy and live it himself. He chose to share with the world. And he has the capabilities to communicate and play the role of the master perfectly. I too had some glimpses of the same stuff he mentioned about his enlightenment experience but I have no capabilities or intentions of guiding someone in that direction. Its not easy. It would become like a short tempered teacher trying to teach math to a dumb student. And managing large group of people has numerous challenges. I heard Osho contemplated for four days before initiating the sannyas movement. He did it anyway and we all are thankful for what he has given to us.
    Looking at “his” people, there are some who decided to spread his message and share it with others as his mediums etc. Its their personal trip and many of them are doing good job. In SN we can discuss, write our views etc. but its not correct to put them down in anyway. It would be like putting Osho and his work down. We need to understand that they are many challenges for the people going in that route, but they are doing it anyway and many new people are benefitting out of that effort. Can we keep the record straight on this?
    Not even sure why you mentioned laughing gas, or whatever Osho did in his personal time etc. They all are secondary and I don’t think anybody here view Osho as a God to worship etc. But there is a trust/love factor that varies from individual to individual. For those people who chose to spread Osho’s work ( lets call them Bodhisattvas) , their alignment with the master is different from others. Its their trust that drives them and makes miracles happen. Because there is a mystic aspect/dimension in the spiritual work which makes it unique. It’s that dimension that we cannot perceive unless we live in it. I know its hard to keep the records straight on this but it is what it is.

    • satyadeva says:

      Anand Newman, from what I’ve heard you give a wrong impression by implying that Osho (or anyone) “got enlightened” then ‘suddenly’ had a choice whether to be a teacher or not. Doesn’t everyone – even you – have to go through a lengthy period of integrating any ‘realisation’ into his/her daily life, to allow the body/mind system to be ‘informed’, as it were, of the ‘new’, with all its revolutionising potential, a process that probably can’t be rushed, ‘fast-tracked’, no matter the individual’s capacity for becoming an inspirational teacher of others?

      I’d like to hear more about your own experience as you’ve almost casually mentioned it, albeit likened it to Osho’s climactic moments. Frankly, I’m inclined to suspect exaggeration here, delusions of spiritual grandeur even. Especially when you assert that self-styled “mediums” of Osho are anything but a rather sophisticated, possibly even very sincere fraud, ie misleading both themselves and their clients.

      And it’s absolute nonsense to say that any criticism of such people is tantamount to criticising Osho and his work! Osho was a great Master and no Master worth his spiritual salt needs a medium – that’s the way of psychic delusion, on the part of those who practise and, most unfortunately, the sincere but gullible who believe in it all. Newcomers need the real deal, not a half-baked psychic apology for the real thing.

      If these “mediums” are unwilling or unable to stand alone on their own two feet and ‘teach’ or ‘help’ from their own space, as it were, then they’re merely part of the massed ranks of purveyors of pseudo=spiritual bullshine. With you yourself not too far behind them, as a ‘supporter’.

    • dominic says:

      “Not even sure why you mentioned laughing gas, or whatever Osho did in his personal time etc. They all are secondary…”
      God strewth! Give me strength!
      I’d like to give you a break though Mr Newman.
      Where would you like it?

      “I had not thought death had undone so many.”
      -T.S. Eliot, the Waste Land (from dante’s inferno)

    • Ashok says:

      “…..Bodhisattvas) their alignment with the master is different from others. It’s their trust that drives them and makes miracles happen. Because there is a mystic aspect/dimension in the spiritual work that makes it unique. It’s that dimension that we cannot perceive unless we live in it.”

      With all due respect Hon. Anand Newman, you sound to me very much like you are a ‘Got have faith’ merchant. Or to put it another way ‘Please believe me for I have seen the light…….take my word for it etc.’, true believer/advocate, when you make the claim re. mystic aspect/dimension above.

      This to my mind puts you on the same level as a shaman p’haps or a religious fundamentalist p’haps or some other kind of self-interested individual p’haps? Or maybe somebody who is in love with the important and superior sounding terminology e.g. Bodhisattva, of a holy belief system that comes with its hierarchical structure of higher and lower beings? Or maybe you are trying to say something else?

  16. Saadz says:

    I’ve read other articles by Lokesh, as well as this one. I guess its time for me to say the obvious. Lokesh is one neo-sannyassin with his head waaaaayyyyyyyyyy up his ass.

    • dominic says:

      Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it. It’s a very advanced pose or assana.
      You probably speak klingon but I’ll translate anyway.
      “Hab Sosli’ Quch!”
      (your mother has a smooth forehead!)
      Fire up the Enterprise! Let the games begin!

    • anand says:

      SPOT ON!
      Neo-sannyassin?! It is too much of a compliment. More like non-sannyassin. He seems to belong to evergrowing group of people who never moved beyond the gossip level when they were in the buddhafield of Osho. There are still many now in Pune mentoring us newcomers what a failure Osho was. Why they are still coming there or here on the webside is a mystery to me. They missed and the only way to save their ego is to go on spouting beautiful rationalizations. For lack of time I pick just one sentence from his post which is riddled with rubbish and delusions…..”If one starts to compare him to the likes of say Buddha, Christ, Krishna etc., which he often did himself, I’d have to say that is definitely stretching the imagination’s elastic a bit”….. On whose authority are you saying this. Is it again just gossip that came to your ears or is it your own authority? If it is your own authority then you elevated yourself to the level of Buddha,Christ and Krishna and subsequently far above Osho. So you came as a disciple to Osho and finally became his master! So please come clear on the web and tell us naive newcomers in clear terms: Are you The Buddha or not?If you are then I will meekly take away everything I have said about you.Waiting for your clear answer.

      • Lokesh says:

        Anand, you did, as you say, pick one sentence, but it changes the context of the sentence by omitting the concludingb sentence, which is, ‘ Osho was somehow too human to enter the league of such distinguished gentlemen.’
        In talking about historic spiritual personages, Christ Buddha, etc you are also dealing with the myths that have built up around them during thousands of years. Already myths are building around Osho and he’s only been dead for a couple of decades. In a way my effort is to report what I see as facts, not myths, and let the reader draw their own conclussion and hopefully move them to write an interesting response.
        I’m writing on my own authority, because that is the only authority that has any real worth. Osho was an authoratarian figure and up to a point that has it’s worth because he had something worthwhile to impart. Take the best and leave the rest. I think the best definition of a real spiritual master is as follows. The real master is not the one with the most disciples, but rather the one who helps others become masters in their own right.
        How much longer do we have to wait for people to come forth and declare their own mastery of themselves? Forever if one remains stuck with a crutch. I’m not saying I am enlightened or anything like that. I think the whole enlightenment number is worn out, theadbare. You ask if I am the Buddha or not? This sounds preposterous to me and belongs to a mindset that is well past it’s sell by date. You ask for a clear answer. Now you have it what wil you do with it?

        • anand says:

          If you wish I can put it that way:
          “If one starts to compare him to the likes of say Buddha, Christ, Krishna etc., which he often did himself, I’d have to say that is definitely stretching the imagination’s elastic a bit. Osho was somehow too human to enter the league of such distinguished gentlemen.”

          My question remains:
          Are you the Buddha to make such a bold statement?

          Just by saying it is preposterous you are only avoiding answer. It is like a judge asking a thief a simple yes or no question “did you steal it or not”. And the answer he gets is … This sounds preposterous to me and belongs to a mindset that is well past it’s sell by date. Pathetic answer in the eyes of the judge at least. So is it yes or no? I will not get anything from your answer, it is your honesty which is at stake.

          Just to remind you Osho,Meher Baba and other buddhas gave a clear yes answer to such questions put to them,i can google it for you if you wish.(they did not consider it past its sell by date)The fakes went on explaining away with weasel words. So are you the buddha or not? Yes or no? Please check one.

          • Lokesh says:

            No. That is unless everyone is Buddha. Then the answer is yes. So you can say that this is a bit of a yes and no answer.

            • frank says:

              look here laddie boy
              your boy scout honesty badge is at stake.
              its a simply question.

              are you as Buddha or not?
              did you steal little johnnys` pencil or not?
              mr oshobuddha,the headmaster of this proud primary school for the spiritually challenged, takes a very dim view of people students thinking things out for themselves.
              108 lines,by tomorrow morning:
              “I must drop my ego and not make rude comments about the headboy or any of the prefects ”
              and you can wipe that smirk off your face immediately……

            • anand says:

              Lokesh, I must admit you outsmarted me with this one. I did not count on that. I have one more question however if you do not mind. If you consider everyone to be Buddha, do you have this view from your own insight into buddha nature of things or from hearsay?

              • Lokesh says:

                Naw, it is just something I read on Facebook. Not to be taken seriously. And if I meet Buddha on the path I certainly won’t kill him, being an old hippy at heart.

  17. Dhanyam says:

    In regards to Fresch’s post, if you are interested in how new people experience Osho and in people’s connection to Osho now, then I suggest you get our Viha Connection magazine (www.oshoviha.org/magazine) as this is what we write about in our magazine. You can see a sample copy at http://www.oshohereandnow.com/connection/VC_Nov-Dec_2011web.pdf. (The magazine appears both in print and in electronic form.)
    Also, we stock and sell more than 20 books written by sannyasins.

    • Lokesh says:

      That James Asher CD you have on your site for meditation ambience came out 15 years ago, which means by today’s standards that it is ancient. You can download more contemporary meditation ambient music for free on Soundcloud. Come on Viha get with the picture.

  18. ma dhyan shunya says:

    Lokesh says ” If one starts to compare him to the likes of say Buddha, Christ, Krishna etc., which he often did himself, I’d have to say that is definitely stretching the imagination’s elastic a bit. Osho was somehow too human to enter the league of such distinguished gentlemen.”

    If this was the joke part of the article of Lokesh i had a good laugh !
    Such bullshit judgmental comment, as if he met them and knows them personally.
    ” Distinguished Gentleman ” surely is a good term for Christ on the Cross ?

    How can Lokesh judge Osho in comparison to Buddha, Christ, Krishna and adds ect., Was Ect meant to be His Guru PunjaJi ?

    • anand says:

      the whole article was a joke. a sick one.

      • Lokesh says:

        Anand, it might be of interest, I’m sure it would, if you would be so kind as to describe what you mean by ‘sick’. Othewise your comment might be interpreted in a way that might be contrary to how you meant it.

  19. Ashok says:

    Excellent piece Lokesh!

    You truly honour Osho the man, his memory and legacy. I say this because you treat him as a remarkable human being who made a big difference to many people’s lives, whilst recognising at the same time his vulnerability, mistakes and weaknesses. In other words, you treat him with GREAT LOVE, COMPASSION & RESPECT.

    Thankfully, you do NOT see him as a sort of religious and god-like figure, beyond reproach, criticism and disagreement. Those of this latter view I am sure, DO NOT TRULY LOVE AND RESPECT HIM, but have some other purposes in mind, which they might or might not be conscious of.

    Thank you for providing a view which is grounded in common-sense and reality.

  20. Fresch says:

    Well, Lokesh, you wrote what you are seeing in his (Osho) magic mirror. You have had some same mantras here for quite a while; I hope you now get some new ankle and inside movement to them. Perhaps next year you can come up with some new and therefore again interesting ones (or my only comment to them will be: same, same, same, heard it before). I look forward reading your posts.

    I love practising osho’s meditations because that is the easiest way to create energetic phenomena inside of me, not depending on anybody on the outside. (It does not make me a better person which has been a disappointment and another story).

    Thanks Dhanyan, this was interesting, I will be in Bali this winter, perhaps I meet some of these people. I remember reading some of the Buddha’s “Real life” and many things and events are very similar to Osho’s life. Do any of you remember the name of the book?

    Now it’s time for a long walk with my dog, the sea and the strong wind will be my tantra now. By the way, he is the Guru of the dogs locally: he never fights with even the mean ones, just looks at them, no fear and continues his walk like ” I just could not be bothered”.

    • Lokesh says:

      Fresch you say, ‘ I remember reading some of the Buddha’s “Real life” and many things and events are very similar to Osho’s life.’
      If that is the case and seeing how there are many similarities between Osho and Buddha it should be no trouble at all to list a few of them. That is, when you return from walking the dog.

    • Dhanyam says:

      Dear Fresch,
      Thanks for your reply.
      If you are going to Bali, I suggest you connect with Bhagawati who put together a great book on sannyasins, titled Past the Point of No Return, which is available on Amazon.
      I don’t know the book you ask about. Sorry.
      Love, Dhanyam
      P.S. The World Peace Summit is being held in Bali, July 5-7.

  21. Lokesh says:

    Shunya enquires, ‘ Was Ect meant to be His Guru PunjaJi ?’
    The answer has tbe a definite no. Punjaji could at times appear a bit laughing Budhalike, but thatis about the extent of it. Punjaji was Punjajilke, in the same sense as Osho was Osholike. Incomparable basically.
    You say ‘his’ guru. Shunya, you are confused. I am anti-guru in the sense that if you really want to be free that includes being free of the need of an external manifestation of that which is actually who you are.
    Osho often said hat if you wish to be with him close your eyes and go within. I can dig that. I interpret that as meaning that the real essence is what Osho saw himself as being merged with and if one goes inside one can also merge with that. What he definitely did not mean was to meet him as an individual and separate entity. Osho knew personality to be just that…a mask. I reckon that the truth is in there and it is beyond name and form. Why you think Osho constanly said he was nobody?

  22. prem Martyn says:

    I was in a Brindisi hotel just a few days before Xmas and by my bedisde quite by chance, was a copy of a book that got me thinking.
    Now, having just arrived up in the Swiss mountains breathing in the rarefied air of the snow-filled village with my very kind and vegan girly ….before I get back to more speaking englisha teachinga in central Italy. It’s a busy two week break.
    Now then, when I get back to planning my lessons and stuff , lots of what Osho provided in real life (yes, without him folks it would be or would have been unlikely , so it’s as close to miraculous as mortals can get in this life ….and not simply bookish or reflective online indirect commentary including this ) in experiencing, in directly accountable living together and through his vast opportunity of significant and profound love-filled times comes out through and by way of me , through my notional approach. What I do is neither private nor furtive, and just like all the significant others in our lives provides for an opportunity to discuss , meet and truly confront possibilities. The world aches for inspiration, and in Osho and all the Story we have acres and acres of engagement and evolutionary delight. I also can and do tell others who are interested, of those who practise aspects of Osho’s mystic vision still, and whom I have personally known, lived with and had the great good luck to be friends with and loved by. That makes a huge difference when proposing change to people, both young and old.Because that Oshoness is still somewhere tangible. And when you do that it’s amazing what synchronicity of thought and experience start happening, people start connecting, and moving beyond their privacy. As such, those of us who feel tempted to make connections of events, sometimes , wonder just how wonderful that kind of miracle is, (the Osho one ) what leads one to it and how it might still have an effect. In me that provides all the energy and wit and wonder to keep going through the tough times.It’s of course fully available from North to South Pole in all sorts of ways , but in my case it just happened to fuse through the anarcho-mystique of this person Osho and his very real direct gnosis that Godliness lives… and it made everything else that shines , shine even brighter….
    What does that make me…..?
    Well as always you can decide that for yourselves….

    and as for that book….It made me laugh after recent news of the new centre in Meditatarstan ,SannyasNews sporting comment style…

    http://www.litstack.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/taliban-cricket-club.jpg

    ttfn .. until the next time…

    • Young sanniasyn says:

      “I was in a Brindisi hotel just a few days before Xmas and by my bedisde quite by chance, was a copy of a book that got me thinking.
      Now, having just arrived up in the Swiss mountains breathing in the rarefied air of the snow-filled village with my very kind and vegan girly ….before I get back to more speaking englisha teachinga in central Italy.”
      Very strange coincidence,those are more or less the same places where i have been,more or less at the same time….
      After this,it is a great article in SN.Thanks Lokesh.

  23. Fresch says:

    It’s not always easy here..martyn am I that horrible…and I suspect you are actually kind with me…auts, auts

    • prem Martyn says:

      Fresch,
      Unlike Lokesh I never had an auntie Guru. But if I did have one, you’d be top of my list for soothing sayings, and Uncle Parmbarmy would be top of my list for tea and cakes after doing one of your/ those delicious tea time meditations that has everyone feeling tip-top and pukka walla.
      Ps Never mention the family over tea, or the unmentionable ‘how’s your father’ ..its english code for a male libido, and it could result in digestive biscuit spluttered over the nice new table cloth that Lokesh’s auntie Guru has just prepared.

      Have a jolly nice Sunday afternoon.
      m

      • prem Martyn says:

        Pps.. Indian version of same joke….

        At the Pharmacist Go-Down
        (assistant)
        ”How Is your very good father and his doings ?”
        (customer with false beard)
        ‘Ah Sahib Farma Sudhikal, I am thinking he is shrinking in this jolly cold snap of winter we are having…., please be so kind to exchange these for me for a smaller packet of aspirin. under the counters hush hush and winky winkies for my jolly fine father, thank you

        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6161691.stm

  24. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    beloved lokesh -(starting surfing the wave 28.12.around approximately 10.am)

    first- got on my rotten surf-tool too
    imagine
    with an outbreak of

    aaaah THIS…aaaah THIS (remember that one ???) there were even musical notes in it
    yesterday
    i shouldn t have done that
    first crash into the sea
    in my mouth salty water and yes
    also bits of plastic- ever so often now to be found in ANY water
    every ocean and everybody s knowing who long that lasts isn t it

    yet

    i m a good swimmer or at least i used to be – like you yourself
    so i stood up again on the surf tool soon after
    again and agin
    and here we go
    decisive now to send a message abroad
    roaring or quiet seas

    who’s knows what—
    i just loved your posting
    and concerning the turbulences
    i m practicing loving them too
    which is a hard one from time to time-

    one of the little flowers my gratefulness to you has
    is
    becoming the flavor of dignity into my nose
    dignity ist how i experience it a human bowing down to as many aspects to trials and errors as to to the extacy peak points
    which have as well to be dissolved into the “let go” of all the uncomfortable zones which as far as i m concerned sometimes cling to me like anything

    may be
    by GRACE
    you are in a bit better condition
    and that you send us a wave
    so to say
    we can take courage to give that a try too
    the letting go
    i mean

    i know
    many many sice yesterday s hello from here by your side
    contributed since then and there

    but i would love to approach you personally by my little
    surf-adventure-diary(prose-metaphers and more in between lines)

    and say thank you
    here comes the evening bavarian sun
    and i send it to go
    and to everybody surfing

    have
    a
    nice
    ride

    love

    madhu

  25. Bodh Ekantam says:

    Lokesh!

    Your post shows your schizophrenic views about Osho.

    Your first self is in love with Osho. This is the seed of real disciple which you were not able to nurture into a flower . Just refer to your observations:
    “seven wonderful years I spent with Osho”
    “On the energetic level I’ve never met anyone who comes remotely close to Osho. I don’t know how it happened but he was indeed a vehicle for an energy force best described as cosmic, divine, pure love etc. Absolutely amazing! I’ll stick to my own experience in saying that it was not difficult for him to read another person’s mind and I know for certain that he was able to travel long distances without his body leaving his bedroom”

    Then there is your second self which has written this post. This is the phony disciple in you which you could not dissolve into the incredible energy of Osho. This phony self of you has turned against Osho because Osho did not fulfil expectations of your phony self.
    This second self has found many faults with Osho.
    This second self adores his mother and is guided by mother’s wisdom to judge Osho by his actions.
    This second self is what is Lokesh of today.
    This second self shows a fucked up child lokesh, born out of fucked up parents.
    This second self is not at ease with Osho.
    This second self is hating Osho, hating india, indian people.
    This second self has got helped by therapy naturally and is not at ease at why osho did not recommend therapy to indians
    This second self is not ready to accept the natural fact that indians did not have as fucked up parents and fucked up child hood.
    This second self hence is contemptuous towards indians not doing therapy branding them as inferior.
    This second self is a western ego who is deeply uncomfortable to the fact that it found Osho an indian and his company wonderful for seven years
    So it is compensating that discomfort by a rage and contempt of indians and so New Delhi being rape capital of world and other blah blah
    This second self is totally oblivious to two world wars these so called westerner have forced on world..it seems murders are better than rapes..
    This second self is oblivious of murders and rapes in western capitals especially USA
    This second self is totally blind to western governments killing innocent civilians in the name of collateral damage.

    Now This second self of Lokesh is judging Enlightened Osho by his actions!
    And why because his fucked up mother told him so, a western fucked up child
    analysing an enlightened indian mystic through the eyes of his fucked up mother.

    So actually in this post,
    It is the fucked up mother of Lokesh which is deep in the basement of unconsciousness of lokesh that is taking pot shots at Osho.

    How ever lokesh may claim otherwise,
    Therapies have not been able to get him rid of his fucked up mother in his basement of unconsciousness.

    So Lokesh as he is today is basically this second self only and not much more than that.
    So life of Lokesh with this second self is not wonderful, it is full of western ego!

    The first self in love with Osho is basically a human innocent heart open to Osho.
    That was alive for seven years with Osho.
    That was alive because of Osho’s living presence.
    Lokesh could not keep it alive when he went away from Osho.

    The second self which is so noisy and which is metaphorically the darkness, has proved to be much powerful.
    Without Osho, this Second self has totally taken hold of Lokesh.
    This second self is the wisdom of lokesh.

    The second self is the phony in lokesh.
    Had Lokesh been able to dissolve this phony self till only the first self was left,
    Lokesh would have become enlightened,
    Lokesh would have gone down the path of true disciple,
    And a blessing for the new disciples!

    However Lokesh lost the way,
    It cherished his second self
    And let his first self go down the drain,
    Lokesh chose to go down the path of phony disciple,
    And hence he is a curse for the new disciples!

    In the east, it is a very common sense,
    They say judge a mystic by only his presence,
    Never judge a mystic by his looks and his words and his actions,
    Just sit around him, close your eyes,
    Dissolve in his presence,
    Once you dissolve your second self totally,
    Your first self comes to its ultimate flowering,
    And your first self becomes vast inner godliness,
    This vast inner godliness can not be divided, so it is individable,
    Becoming this makes you individual
    And being individual,
    You are no more human,
    You yourself become god,
    God is a person who is blessed with vast godliness in his inside!
    So when the disciple himself is a god,
    Master by no stretch of imagination is human,
    Master is the creator, preservator and destroyer,
    Master is god!

    In this beautiful talk,
    Osho says when a disciple finds faults with his master,
    He is hiding the fact that he chose his phoniness and hence missed the great
    opportunity with Master,
    Osho is explaining that contradictions in his actions
    Are to break the expectations of disciples!

    6 September 1986 pm in
    Question 1
    BELOVED OSHO,
    AS I SEE IT, THE SITUATION IS AS FOLLOWS:
    YOU ARE, AND WE ARE NOT,
    OR TO BE MORE PRECISE, YOU AREN’T, AND WE STILL ARE.
    IT SEEMS THAT THE MASTER-DISCIPLE RELATIONSHIP IS REALLY A KINDNESS ON YOUR PART TO DESCRIBE, IN FLATTERING TERMS, WHAT IS ESSENTIALLY OUR FAILURE TO HEAR
    WHAT YOU HAVE SAID – MORE OFTEN, MORE CLEARLY, AND MORE LOVINGLY THAN ANY DISCIPLES IN HISTORY COULD HAVE POSSIBLY BEEN BLESSED WITH.
    IF, IN SOME WAY, THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THE PROCESS, THAT PROBLEM CAN ONLY BE OURS – IRREFUTABLY, UNDENIABLY AND TOTALLY OURS.
    OSHO, ISN’T TAKING THIS RESPONSIBILITY UNTO OURSELVES, RATHER THAN PROJECTING OUR EXPECTATIONS ON YOU, THE VERY FIRST STEP?

    Responsibility is always the very first step of freedom.
    Throwing the responsibility on somebody else’s shoulders is throwing away the opportunity for freedom.
    You cannot divide the two, they are inseparably one.
    Amrito, it is true that the whole responsibility is of the disciple – the master is only a catalytic agent, an excuse.
    But to accept responsibility needs guts – everybody wants freedom, nobody wants
    responsibility.
    And the trouble is that they always go together.
    If you do not want responsibility, you will be enslaved in some way or other.
    The slavery can be spiritual – which is the worst kind of slavery possible.
    The political slavery, the economic slavery, are superficial; you can revolt against them very easily.
    But the spiritual slavery is so deep that even the idea of revolting against it does not arise, for the simple reason that this slavery is there because you have asked for it.
    Other slaveries are imposed on you; you can throw them away, they are against you.
    This slavery, the spiritual slavery, appears to be not against you but a tremendous consolation – a consolation that your responsibility has been taken over by somebody who knows; now you need not worry.
    But along with the responsibility, you have lost freedom also.
    And every expectation is a bondage; it leads to frustration sooner or later.
    It is destined to turn into frustration – no expectation can be fulfilled because nobody is obliged to fulfill your expectations; he has his own expectations.
    The master-disciple relationship is not a relationship of expectations.
    Expectation is the poison that destroys all other relationships.
    Your love turns into hate the moment there is expectation.
    Friendship becomes enmity.
    Just the magic of expectation turns everything beautiful into ugliness.
    But your whole life is full of expectations. Your mind knows nothing but to expect. Hence, when you come to a master your mind brings its expectations, its habits, its old routine.
    And there are people who pretend to be masters.
    This has to be the criterion: If anybody is ready to fulfill your expectations, he is not a master, he is simply exploiting you.
    No master can say, ”I am going to fulfill your expectations.”
    He can only say, ”I am going to destroy all your expectations” – because unless your expectations are destroyed, your old, rotten mind cannot be destroyed.
    Your old habits which are hindering the growth of your being cannot be removed.
    The authentic master does not take any responsibility.
    It is a very strange thing; you would have thought otherwise, that the compassionate master must accept your expectations and try to fulfil them.
    In reality, only a charlatan – at the most a teacher – can enjoy the idea of being a savior, a prophet, a messenger.
    Only someone who is taking advantage of your weakness can say to you, ”Just believe in me and you are saved” – be a Christian and you are saved, be a Hindu and you are saved; surrender all your responsibility to Krishna or to Christ, and you will be saved.
    It looks very cheap, very simple; you are not losing anything and gaining everything.
    That’s why a man like Jesus Christ could say to you, ”I am the shepherd and you are my sheep.”
    And not a single man stood and opposed him – ”What are you saying? You are insulting our humanity.
    You are the shepherd, and we are just the sheep!”
    But for two thousand years not a single Christian has raised his hand to say that ”I am not ready to become a sheep” – for the simple reason that he is ready to be humiliated, because Jesus is saying, ”If you are my sheep I will save you. You have nothing else to do but to be a sheep.”
    Nobody thinks about the fact that by reducing human beings to sheep you are not saving them, you are destroying them.
    You are destroying their integrity, you are destroying their self-respect and you
    are making them slaves.
    And the bargain is a promised paradise after death.
    Nobody comes back to say if these saviors are helping anybody or if they have just cheated, lied, exploited and destroyed human dignity.
    And you rejoiced, because all responsibility was taken by them.
    The bargain was not bad; you just have to be a sheep, a believer.
    You just have to be a follower.
    You are not to be yourself, you have to be just a shadow.
    You have not to walk a path on your own, alone; you have to follow the footprints.

    From ‘The Osho Upanishad’
    Chapter 19: Responsibility: the very first step of freedom

    (MOD: THE REST OF THIS EXTRACT HAS BEEN REMOVED DUE TO CONSIDERATIONS OF LENGTH AND SPACE).

    • Lokesh says:

      Ekantam, thanks for all the attention. Much appreciated, but not needed. When I arrived at your cut and paste Osho quote I stopped reading. Your analysis of who and what I am is quite bizarre. Suggested reading Psychological Commentaries. Maurice Nicoll. I am not biased because he was a fellow Scott. I know no other book that describes better the divided self and multiple personalities posing as one. Although written decades ago Mr Nicoll’s writing and ideas make your’s look like they are in need of tweaking. In fact I suggest you ditch them allogether, because you are barking up the wrong tree in this case. If the barking persists try Chum.

  26. Anand Newman says:

    More than 2K years ago when Buddha was dying his brother Ananda asks him what to do with the body after death. I heard it happened in a small village. Buddha’s reply was ” just take it to the common village burial ground like everyone else and burn it. People don’t even have to remember that I ever existed”. More or less same response was given by Osho to his friends attending to him. We all know this. Why anyone thinks that Osho is being worshipped, except some perverted groups doing their private limited business? Its just amusing.

    Bodhisatva meaning a person who is realized and takes the commitment out of compassion to help all others realize. It has nothing do with any hierarchy or anything. I am not saying we cannot criticize them in SN, positive criticism can be there but not negative criticism. Mud slinging with narrow understanding is not the right thing to do.

    I am surprised no one has commented on the following point” My prediction is that SN will increasingly become a focus of attention for those who are new to Osho and wishing a more coherent vision of who and what he actually was.” I think It will only confuse and turn away the new people. How many strangers will get interested in Osho by reading SN vs reading a book of Osho or listening or watching him? Just by reading web blogs or literature, transformation is not going to happen. It needs the right environment, right weather, right breeze and nourishment.

  27. frank says:

    newman
    as far as the net is concerned….anyone,whether new or old to osho ,who wishes to read what osho people think and say outside of all the existing osho websites, which are basically self-interested publicity and advertising material with no right to reply….
    will have no choice but to come to sannyasnews.
    its as simple as that.

    • Anand Newman says:

      There are many good books written by Osho sannyasins ( check Osho viha for the listing ) illustrating their own experiences. I myself came to know lot of things thru them because I do not know about Osho when he was alive.

  28. Fresch says:

    Am sorry to be narcissist, but thank you Martyn. I am just so much in heaven to have gotten a nickname from my Buddha’s on the road and ALSO such incredible imitation of me. So much Namaste my sweeties.
    Any way, this is your hot seat Lokesh. Now, you deal with your “selfie”.

    • Lokesh says:

      Fresch, I’ve been on numerous hot seats during the course of my life and this is not one of them. A few blown fuses and that’s about the extent of it.

  29. Fresch says:

    Still I need to say I have not had such fan encounter ever. Martyn I will print and frame it and contemplate on it every morning.

  30. Fresch says:

    Yes, yes, I am sure. But this is different hot seat, not a harsh one, more I will not say what way. It’s your hot seat, new way of hot seat..

  31. shantam prem says:

    Do stocks of Osho’s books and 20 other odd books written by Osho Sannyasins can help any body dealing with Organisational and political mess around Osho’s own work and make it really click with the pulse of the time?
    Oh yes…if we bring back to life Ronald Regan, Indira Gandhi and Pope the Pollack.
    I was thinking during last few days, if i had an opportunity to give some book as present, will it be an Osho book?
    And answer of my heart was, Not any more.
    I will prefer to give books of an book writer as present, for example Khalil Gibran or Paulo Coleho but not of a master who is being traded as an author.
    So disgraceful i am not to ask a married woman for casual sex!

    • Anand Newman says:

      Osho spent most of the time giving his commentaries and his versions on many age old scriptures and past masters. It was necessary because they needed new life. Are you saying Osho’s books already out dated in 25 + years?

  32. shantam prem says:

    Anand Newman seems to be the Anand of the old days. May be Mr. Anand Got got initiated by some guru and got the addition Newman.
    Style of the writing is dito.
    As far as i remember Character called Anand was the creation of Frank. It can be vice versa.
    If Frank stops writing at this blog, will his obituary be published in Oshonews?
    Most probably not, because no one knows who he is and as far as Name Anand is concerned, more than 10000000 Anands give after Buddha’s cousin of that era.

    • frank says:

      shantam.
      here`s a preview of the osho news obit

      beloved swami veet frank was a gentle soul who never had a bad word for anyone. his completely non-judgmental nature, total innocence, and unquestioning positivity shone through at all times and he didn’t have a cynical bone in his body. a really lovely bloke who would never have thought to laugh at others with less fortunate underwear than himself. he slipped away quietly whilst meditating in a white robe,doing gacchammis and humming his favourite miten and premal songs…….

    • Anand Newman says:

      If my posts in this thread gave a wrong impression that I am all for gurus , its not right. The Newman need not necessarily have to have A Guru, he can learn from many /anyone he likes or completely stand on his own.

  33. shantam prem says:

    In a way, Lokesh is showing his gratitude and love for Osho for continuousy pouring through his words though he has not been connected with the Osho kind of work for decades. His journey with Osho ended when Osho was in Bhagwan Shree phase.

    Sometime i wonder, where are those people who were shouting Osho Osho Osho. Have all of them achived silence?
    I belive not. Many Osho Osho Osho shouters are teaching Tantra, Meditation, Reiki, Past life, Aura Soma, Auervedic Massage to Russian and ex. Soviet Union citizens.
    As i see in Germany, there are very few sannyasins left who are still using Sannyas name unless they are in the above mentioned professions.
    In the world of hit and run esoterica ,Kiosk on the wheels is safer and lucrative than a fixed address.

    • Lokesh says:

      When Bhagwan first adopted the name Osho I lived by a well up the back of Koregaon Park. It was a popular spot during the hot season. One day a bunch of newcomers showed up in their freshly ironed orange robes that they’d bought in the ashram boutique. As they took the plunge each of them cried out, Osho! Osho! Osho! I cringed.

    • frank says:

      don’t worry shantam its happening,but not in Xtian churches and europorn sites.

      in the words of MC Buddha on his legendary track
      “get a life unto yourself”:

      “we down on the streetless street
      an we rappin out our metres meet
      out in the world where they turnin up the heat
      not hangin in no ashram aint beatin no spiritual meat
      aint wearin no glory suit ,we aint no ubermensch elite
      we almost invisible, keepin it discreet
      we deep in the maya an in da Buddha`hood
      samsara is nirvana… mm.. good.”

  34. prem Martyn says:

    Lokesh,
    I have just read through what is described as an extract regarding your sinful ways which have taken you from the Lord….If that’s an extract I dread to think of the full recipe…
    those particular comments remind me of Marmite which should be spread thinly or otherwise it leads to gagging . …(more on that later )…
    , however here it has been ladled on in spoonfuls. My question is this… if any or all of these extracted claims of falsehood are true of you, just how , as the saying goes , just How ……
    Can you live with your-Self…??? ( Please see the PO box number at the back of The DIY guide to Shelf Realisation printed by Farquparmarthurson Press )

    Ps I phoned your Auntie Guru and she said about this most vexed issue of endurance, that you were always very fond of messing about with odd jobs, shelving and putting up with them.. ( it was a terrible line from Tobermory…)

    pps Here’s something about 700 years old that I found lying around the internet , that might help if the Christmas lights go out and all around is darkness….

    Truth is something so noble that if God could turn aside from it, I could keep the truth and let God go.

    Uncle Meister Eckhart

  35. honeysucklerose says:

    I thought I’d post something of interest, Osho is mentioned on page 2. http://www.vanityfair.com/society/2014/01/bikram-choudhury-yoga-sexual-harassment

  36. Ashok says:

    Lokesh wrote:

    “Osho’s meditation techniques……….. a stepping stone towards real meditation, which is bringing awareness into the small and great acts that compose our lives.”

    Sharing a few anecdotes is a welcome change to the general daily fodder served up on this site, which if some of you had not noticed usually centres around some handbag scuffle, scratching & biting included, going on between some or nearly all of the girls. I naturally try to avoid this myself, but some of you girlies insist on dragging me down to your level, don’t you?

    Anyway, what Lokesh wrote above reminded me of what happened to me one day shortly after my first trip to Pune, which I think reflects what he is talking about. I should mention here before continuing that I had done my fair share of therapy groups & meditations at the Resort for about five months previous to finding myself in the city of Durban, S.Africa, on the day in question. At that time I was in general still very dubious about Osho and what a lot of his stuff had to offer, and it was very much open to question as to whether I would continue with any of it…. or so I thought!

    So there I was one beautiful sunny morning on a rickety old bus full of workers, school kids, housewives etc. when I suddenly got the desire to sing one of me favourite songs ‘Oh What a Beautiful Morning’, from one of me favourite ‘cowboy’ movies, ‘Oklahoma’. Please note, that I had never sung out loud in public before. At that point, 2 big tough and rough-looking white Afrikaner guys came and sat down on the seats in front of me. My judge-mental mind went into overload about these 2 guys, picturing all kinds of ugly things they would do to me if I broke out into song. Fortunately, I was pretty sure it was me own shit I was looking at, and so the fear and projections left me. Then before I knew what was happening I found myself spontaneously singing out loud:

    “Oh what a beautiful morning, Oh what a beautiful day……..”

    I hadn’t got very far when suddenly the two ‘hulks’ began to turn around ……….oh shit……. and look at me with big smiles on their faces……and then to my surprise they started singing along with me, as did several others! By the time we had finished singing the whole atmosphere had changed on the bus. It had gone from serious, reserved politeness to playfulness, warmth and friendliness. Complete strangers were laughing and sharing a few words with each other …….

    After this experience, I started to think … maybe there is something to this Osho guy, after all! Interestingly, before the Pune visit, I had wanted to do things like this on many occasions in my life, but in some way or another had stopped myself from doing so. After coming out of the closet as it were (let your minds feed on that one), my life has been much richer since.

    Just for the record, no artificial stimulants of any kind were involved – I was as sober as a judge!

    • frank says:

      that’s a good one.
      it reminds me of “at lunchtime” by roger mcgough
      the only “non-mystical” poem that osho ever discoursed on,as far as I can remember.

      • Heraclitus says:

        Go on Frank, give us the poem. Never heard of Osho discoursing on a Liverpool beat poet.

        MOD: Here it be, Heraclitus!

        AT LUNCHTIME

        by Roger McGough

        When the bus stopped suddenly

        to avoid damaging

        a mother and child in the road,

        the younglady in the green hat sitting opposite,

        was thrown across me,

        and not being one to miss an opportunity

        i started to make love.

        At first, she resisted,

        saying that it was too early in the morning,

        and too soon after breakfast,

        and anyway, she found me repulsive.

        But when i explained that this being a nuclearage

        the world was going to end at lunchtime,

        she took off her green hat,

        put her busticket into her pocket

        and joined in the exercise.

        The buspeople,

        and there were many of them,

        were shockedandsurprised,

        and amusedandannoyed.

        But when word got around

        that the world was going to

        end at lunchtime,

        they put their pride in their pockets

        with their bustickets

        and made love one with the other.

        And even the busconductor,

        feeling left out,

        climbed into the cab,

        and struck up some sort of relationship with the driver.

        That night,

        on the bus coming home,

        we were all a little embarrassed.

        Especially me and the younglady in the green hat.

        And we all started to say

        in different ways

        how hasty and foolish we had been.

        But then, always having been a bitofalad,

        i stood up and said it was a pity

        that the world didn’t nearly end every lunchtime,

        and that we could always pretend.

        And then it happened . . .

        Quick asa crash

        we all changed partners,

        and soon the bus was aquiver

        with white, mothball bodies doing naughty things.

        And the next day

        and everyday

        In everybus

        In everystreet

        In everytown

        In everycountry

        People pretended

        that the world was coming to an end at lunchtime.

        It still hasn’t.

        Although in a way it has.

        • Parmartha says:

          Great poem, where did Osho comment on it? I can see whay he might!

          • Arpana says:

            Hope I’m not gonna be in the dog house again, for posting something Osho said.

            The last question
            Osho,
            PLEASE CAN YOU TELL US WHEN THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END?
            Sant Maharaj,
            TODAY 8th of September 1980, at lunchtime! Meditate over this story, a story by Roger McGough:

            When the bus stopped suddenly to avoid damaging a mother and child in the road, the young lady in the green hat sitting opposite was thrown across me, and not being one to miss an opportunity i started to make love with all my body.
            At first she resisted saying that it was too early in the morning and too soon after breakfast and that anyway she found me repulsive. But when I explained that this being a nuclear age, the world was going to
            end at lunchtime, she took off her green hat, put her bus ticket in her pocket and joined in the exercise.
            The bus people, and there were many of them, were shocked and surprised and amused and annoyed, but when the word got around that the world was coming to an end at lunchtime, they put their pride in their
            pockets with their bus tickets and made love one with the other. And even the bus conductor, being over, climbed into the cab and struck up some sort of relationship with the driver.
            That night, on the bus coming home, we were all a little embarrassed, especially me and the young lady in the green hat, and we all started to say in different ways how hasty and foolish we had been. But then,
            always having been a bit of a lad, I stood up and said it was a pity that the world didn’t nearly end every lunchtime and that we could always pretend. And then it happened…
            Quick as a crash we all changed partners and soon the bus was aquiver with white moth ball bodies doing naughty things.
            And the next day
            and everyday
            in everybus
            in everystreet
            in everytown
            in everycountry
            People pretended that the world was coming to an end at lunchtime. it still hasn’t. although in a way it has.

            But, Sant Maharaj, if by any chance it does not end today, see you tomorrow!

            Osho.

            Guida Spirituale
            Chapter #14
            Chapter title: Kiss or Kill

      • Ashok says:

        Ta for the poem. Making love with a strange woman on a bus eh….. now that would really be something to aim at, wouldn’t it? Let’s see what happens….. if I end up in jail, I’ll blame it on you!

      • Ashok says:

        Ta Frank. Noblesse oblige. You’re really Heraclitus as well, right?

    • Heraclitus says:

      Great story, Mr Ashok. Stay with us…

  37. Fresch says:

    Ashok, this i like! More these stories here.

  38. Fresch says:

    And if you made it up.. That’s ok too

    • Ashok says:

      Ta Freshie. The story is 100% true and accurate. Being of Irish origin I am naturally given to a little bit of poetic license/exaggeration when telling stories, however in this case I stuck faithfully to the facts.

  39. prem Martyn says:

    I was on this bus at Geneva airport just the other night and there was this bloke raving away at the back, part jabbering , part singing, part manic laughing and scary gutteral exclamations (of the sort one usually uses when castigating an inaminate object ) so that I turned to my way-past-her bedtime girl and asked if she thought we should join in, or was free radio wifi available inside everyone’s heads in Geneva. It never crossed my mind that he might be a sannyasin, although I intuitively realised that at this late hour and on many transport networks around the world similar events might be taking place because A) it was Xmas and B) Nutcases actually do exist. C) They love public transport to show off their skills…captive audience etc.
    True story.

    On reflection and with the benefit of hindsight I now realise through this incident , that the tourist authorities in South Africa may well be adding yet another reason for visiting and travelling around….Bus Singing adventures with the Ashok Ladysmith Mbazo Funsters.

  40. Fresch says:

    There is difference being cynical and being critical..

    • prem Martyn says:

      Fresch, I think if my understanding of your statement is correct…..that you may be suffering from an online disturbance called Lexical Interpretation with not enough smileys to forewarn of parody usage ahead. It happens to be quite widespread amongst Germans who are knowingly famous for exporting their humour around the world to the delight of the natives. Despite the actual truth of my own story and its sub textual narrative…. I will have to add a joke to it, just for you…

      Here is a joke for you then…

      I zay, I ‘af putt my beachtovell on zis deckchair before you, zerefore it is mine,und ha und ha und ha….
      I vill now be vering my heart on my sleeeve for ze rest of zis evening..

      England 1….. Germany …0

      • Ashok says:

        Oops P.M. looks like the handbags are out again! It is beyond me how you could stoop to such a thing? Please carry on!

        Thanks for your comments -you were spot on!

        (MOD: SOME EDITING HERE)

  41. Lokesh says:

    Few years back I was walking down Amsterdam’s Prinsengracht about two in the morning. I was accompanied by 7 friends, all of whom were sannyasins. Being Amsterdam, I suppose you could say we were in high spirits. The mood was cheerful, to say the least. In the distance we heard someone shouting. As we drew closer to the source of the noise I began to make out the words, ‘I am the chief rabbi!’ We drew closer to the man. He was a Hassidic jew, with a big black hat and dreadlocks Bob Marley would have been proud of. Like one of those guys you see nodding their heads over the Torah in the vecinity of Jerusalem’s wailing wall.
    Spontaneously, all 8 of us made a semi-circle around the man, who continued to scream out, ‘I am chief rabbi!’ in a somewhat aggresive manner. We stood in silence looking at him. The man continued to call out what was obviously some kind of affirmative mantra to his disturbed mind. It was also obvious that his resolve to get his message out to night time Amsterdam was crumbling fast. After a few minutes of listening to the verbal racket at close range Naresh, who was a primal therapist in Poona One, suddenly let out a very powerful extended scream. The nutter about shit himself on the spot. He shut up big time, his bespectacled eyeballs going pinball. We all burst out laughing and moved on without saying a word. Chief rabbi stood stock still in the centre of the street, a 50amp fuse blown in his confused head.
    It was a cold winter’s night and we soon began to walk quickly. Five minutes later we heard a call in the distance. ‘I am chief rabbi!’ You can’t win ‘em all.

  42. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    won t you please cool down – prem martyn – (30.12.13 at 5.45 pm) ????

    saw your contribution just now
    after having had a deep look into a documentary about curly chaplains life story
    especially about the first decades of his life and work
    and HIS way of riding “the waves”to interrelate with himself
    his child-life story in england
    his getting to ride to be “an american “dream”
    and falling kind of out of it
    his way to deal (or not deal with greedy people and business mongers)
    others
    the first world war
    and so on and so on
    the documentary is thoroughly and lovingly done and really to be recommended to everybody here
    and can be seen in the mediathek of ARTE TV still a couple of days
    (done by lobster and one other film production… i remember lobster just now because i love these animals…)

    sometimes i give myself a treat
    (yesterday a had one with expiencing”modern times” like ever nd ever again
    and after that
    being quite awake by a small mystic rose meditation supported by this “chaplinade”
    i went on with ang lee s
    “tiger and dragon”

    which is also highly recommendable
    to broaden the view
    of spiritual heritages
    power trips und misuse of power and these kind of trips
    of ANY real (area) of spiritual “enterprises”

    so sometimes i feel

    ah guys GIVE ME A BREAK

    and then i take one

    and also ist true

    i love fellow travelers anyway
    otherwise
    i would not write a letter
    wouldn t i ?

    madhu
    evening prayer

  43. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    dear ashok -(31.12.13 at 1.28pm)

    as time goes by we do not only see the distortions of “timings” to send messages by timing machines(servers et altere..)

    we also see the distortions revealing in levels of UNDERSTANDING
    some are already in and some are after “new years e ve”
    (when we take that as a metaphor to give change a try….)

    some are not

    what the loveMAKING in busses as in other vehicles means (for the women)
    we hear now and then when it is far too late on ANY level
    for climate changes in interrelated human traffic affairs… may be you ve heard about the one or the other incidents…?
    or have you been too drunken to come to notice ??

    so

    you and some others
    please give change a chance !
    by that kind of change i mean you would be profiting too
    even if you might not see that by now

    wish a happy new years celebration
    to everybody present here

    madhu

  44. Fresch says:

    If any of the words account Lokesh, to be more specific “I leave you my dream” were Osho’s words according to Amritos’s statement, but NOT the last words. The last words (according to Amrito) were “ Anando will be my medium”

    • Lokesh says:

      Where would you imagine that Osho might be that he would require a medium, Fresch?

    • dominic says:

      Just like in any B movie, he didn’t get to finish his last line and final joke before he died, which was…
      “Anando will be my medium, Mukta will be my small and Zareen my extra-large.”
      So obvious, duh… Ha ha ha, nice one pops!

  45. Bodh Ekantam says:

    Dear editors and moderators of SN!

    How funny you people are?

    For sharing your stupidity which has nothing to do with Sannyas,
    there is no limits on number of words which your stupid cotributors can use.

    But there is a limit on numbers of words which Osho can use to hit at your stupidity!

    This exposes your reality,
    SN for the fools, of the fools, by the fools!
    Nothing to do with Osho and Sannyas!

    Ha Ha !
    Bye Phony ones!

    MOD: POINT OF OBVIOUS INFORMATION, EKANTAM:
    YOUR POSTS THAT INCLUDE EXCEPTIONALLY LONG EXTRACTS OF DISCOURSES OF OSHO ARE MANY TIMES LONGER THAN THE LONGEST ONES FROM ANYONE ELSE WHO CONTRIBUTES TO SN. GIVEN THAT, MAY WE SUGGEST THAT USING YOUR EYES AND YOUR COMMON SENSE WOULD BE ADVISABLE BEFORE RUSHING TO CALL OTHERS “STUPID”.

    • Parmartha says:

      To be honest, BE, DR and Rajneesh have announced they had, or were leaving this board several times before. One will see.
      I have often asked myself why they are attracted here, maybe it is the attraction of opposites?
      Devotees of this order are certainly a long way from most contributors here. It is certainly anti-intellectual. And yet, our mutually beloved Master was an intellectual perhaps above all, reading his 14 books a day….
      There is certainly no mystic tradition within them such as the medieval Christian mystics offered “In imitation of Christ”. Many of them certainly seem to have read Osho, but almost nothing else. Odd because they do seem “imitative” in other ways of Osho in garb and presentation…

    • Lokesh says:

      Ekantum declares, ‘there is no limits on number of words which your stupid cotributors can use.’
      Methinketh, look who is talking.

  46. shantam prem says:

    Is there some new guru in the west, who is triggering interest in people?

      • dominic says:

        “Choose a life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television. Choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers… Choose DSY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit crushing game shows…
        Choose living through overpaid football cretins, Choose a Guru to make it all go away…”
        (Freely adapted from “trainspotting”)

    • dominic says:

      The one in the mirror is best.
      Otherwise there’s gazillions.
      Katy perry, bieber and gaga have c. 50 million followers each.
      Are you starting to give up hope on a Poona 4 renewal?
      Then maybe you can glue yourself to another authority figure to hypnotize you with their charm, charisma and way with words.
      Perhaps there are even some nice laydeez around?
      Maybe there you will find the love you are looking for?
      Do you know really how lonely gurus gets, that they need consumables, constant adulation and drugs to numb the pain?
      Or maybe it’s time to try another approach?

      • satyadeva says:

        I’m all for uncovering frauds and phoneys etc. but perhaps such ‘blanket’ statements should be informed by more comprehensive research, dominic, or you might stand accused of being as prejudiced as the fundamentalist types we all like to put down.

        Re your request for names of spiritual teachers of unimpeachable integrity, here are a few more that randomly come to mind:

        Byron Katie
        Ganga-ji
        Irene Tweedie (died a few years ago)
        Llewellyn (‘successor’ to Irene Tweedie)
        Jean Klein (died a few years ago)
        Barry Long (died in 2003)

        I strongly suspect you’re allowing Arpana’s Belief-Bias Effect to get the better of your judgment here. Re the two I previously cited whom you were quick to ‘rubbish’, of course I never met Meher Baba, who died in ’68, all I know of him is down to a year or two of quite regularly watching his videos, back in the 90′s, plus reading one or two books, but his life was well-documented enough to conclude, for want of any conflicting evidence, that he was 100% ‘pure’. Similarly, Ramana Maharshi.

        As for your apparently unsatisfactory encounter with Mother Meera, if you only regarded it as “a staring match” then it sounds as if there was too much ‘self’ getting in the way.

        I think the mistake you’re often making here is assuming your cynicism, disillusion, anger etc. is necessarily revealing ‘the truth’, whereas, although scepticism can be healthy, even a prerequisite in these matters, I suspect there might be other, more personal elements that create such a strongly emotionalised, negative attitude.

        In other words, why not look at your own life and apply similarly stringent criteria for areas where you’re simply unhappy? Perhaps ‘killing’ your past attachments in this way is, for you, a major step in that direction? IE Perfectly right for you – but not necessarily for everyone else.

        Can you honestly say – apart from currently realising there’s nothing in it for you any more, ie you’re sort of ‘negatively free’ – that you never received anything from any of the gurus/teachers you’ve been associated with? No positive (rather than negative) gratitude?

        (PS: Will respond later to your other questions of a couple of days ago, been a bit busy recently).

        • dominic says:

          You’ve GOT to be kidding me SD!
          Where to begin?
          You really need to do some research, eg byron katie and gangaji.
          You’ve been drinking the Kool aid.
          I can see I’ve touched a raw nerve!
          It’s a can of worms, and we could debate it on a case by case basis.
          I know all the teachers you mention to various degrees.
          I agree that not all are ‘corrupt’ by any means, that is to say lacking integrity. It’s a wide spectrum. For example anyone calling them-self an ‘avatar’ in the usual sense of the word, I would consider delusional or propagating indian ‘guff’.
          You obviously are happy to buy into this stuff.
          Perhaps raising up another, because presumably you may feel small.
          You might need to access your own inner guru more, and not just with the logical mind.
          A documented life to me makes for nothing, or lineage, or any other form of hearsay or number of followers.
          “100 % pure” is a meaningless phrase.
          Pure what? Pure second-hand indian bollocks?
          Of course there may be some benefits you have gained.
          Can you say what they might be to you apart from more knowledge?
          For example knowing meher baba was an avatar, given that you never met him?
          What do YOU know by your own authority?
          You strike me as quite sweet, but naive and romantic, giving yourself away for some ‘beads and feathers’ and candy from anyone with half a ‘spiritual’ portfolio.
          I can see you like to debate.
          If you’re in london come to the breakfast club, for the shock of the real as opposed to the virtual.

          • dominic says:

            If you give yourself away, whoever you follow, nothing works, breeding compliance and groupthink.
            If you don’t, you can visit them all even the devil, but may not feel the need to.
            Home cooking is best.
            Shakti shots and bliss ninnyism are for junkies or maybe special treats but what then? Keep coming back for more?

            Everyone’s journey and discoveries are unique. Carbon-copying won’t do.
            I am happy that Ramana and Osho agree with me on some points, and are free to disagree with me on others.
            (See what I did there?)

            • satyadeva says:

              I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with any of that, Dominic.

              I think you’re too quick to ‘pigeonhole’ me, and probably others as well.

              • Arpana says:

                Us and them Mentality.
                He is part of an elite group who gets it. You are not because you don’t.

                Ingroups and outgroups
                From Wikipedia.

                In sociology and social psychology, an ingroup is a social group to which a person psychologically identifies as being a member. By contrast, an outgroup is a social group to which an individual does not identify. For example, people may find it psychologically meaningful to view themselves according to their race, culture, gender or religion. It has been found that the psychological membership of social groups and categories is associated with a wide variety of phenomena.

                The terminology was made popular by Henri Tajfel and colleagues during his work in formulating social identity theory. The significance of ingroup and outgroup categorization was identified using a method called the minimal group paradigm. Tajfel and colleagues found that people can form self preferencing ingroups within a matter of minutes and that such groups can form even on the basis of seemingly trivial characteristics, such as preferences for certain paintings.

              • dominic says:

                Pot, kettle and black come to mind… ‘cynical, angry, disillusioned’ or just running my BS Detector app.
                Not sure what you’re agreeing with ‘cos it seems like you’d be contradicting yourself, but I sense your busy at the moment.
                To repeat myself I say calling yourself an avatar: god in human form is a delusional messiah complex. And talking but not talking (meher baba the 5th marx brother?) is a cop-out.
                Gangaji and Katie are guilty of scandal, abuse, lack of integrity, plastic surgery and fake blonde hair. Katie’s reductive technique is laughable.
                It amazes me that with the internet today people don’t bother to do background checks more. But I know people who don’t want to know or hear anything ‘negative’ that might upset their world, and keep their eyes wide shut.
                The saintly Ramana only ever proclaimed his mother and his favourite cow enlightened.
                I mean really, get a grip and dig a little deeper than you do.
                I don’t care about any of it really, it’s a source of amusement, since I am mainly critiquing the addictive tendency to go outside looking for answers and painkillers and putting humans up on pedestals, which does no-one any favours.
                Of course I’m being flip when I say 5 sec staring contest with meera? Apart from perfecting the art of queuing, I just don’t see the point though. Maybe you can share and enlighten us all about how you’ve been transformed.
                There aren’t any objective criteria as far as I can see. “100% pure and unimpeachable” is just blather. You’ve already assumed a lot. Confirmation bias anyone? 
                Perhaps brainscans and neuroscience might one day shed some light. Doubtful.
                Hearsay and the absence of bad behaviour is no qualifier, otherwise everyone and their grandma would be qualified.
                Barry long was quite dogmatic as I remember. Irene Tweedie’s dream interpretations… patronising, I was bored.
                Jean klein, french intellectual, some promise… Hated papaji btw. Oh and papaji involved in terrorist activities, married, sired a child at 60 with 20 yr old student and called osho immoral, denounced all his enlightened followers as leeches… And on and on.
                Or maybe you like your nisargadatta sitting on antelope skin, smoking himself and others to death, pacing up and down at the end, while giving satsang, because of going cold turkey… But ” hey I’m not the body.”
                Morons, idiots, fools and lousy role models, the whole damn lot of them!
                Guess I’m gonna burn in hell!
                Blessings.

                • Kavita says:

                  The inside stories ( pun un-intended ) of enlightened ones are so enlightening , thanx for sharing dom .

                  Seasons Greetings & Happy New Beginings / Endings to SN ‘ ites .

                • satyadeva says:

                  Last brief effort tonight…You’re too ‘black and white’, Dominic, seemingly too prone to put people – whether teachers, disciples or fellow-travellers – into ‘boxes’, convenient for your personal purposes of all-round denunciation.

                  It’s perfectly possible for me to agree with you on certain issues, up-to-a-point on others, and disagree completely on yet others.

                  In fact, as you surely must realise, you come across as extremely dogmatic yourself, apparently rigidly determined to rubbish anyone and everyone bearing the term ‘spiritual’! Then you imply Barry Long was flawed through being “dogmatic”…Having accused me of “pot, kettle and black” errors! (Btw, I recommend his autobiography, ‘My Life of Love and Truth’, it might surprise you).

                  Those 6 names, btw, just came into my head at random and I included all of them as I wasn’t aware of any major ‘scandal’ surrounding any of them.

                  But perhaps your expectations are/were simply too high? Personally, I’m perfectly at home with ‘imperfect’ people being teachers or even masters, I don’t expect them to be infallible on everything, omniscient (and certainly not omnipresent!). Aside from having ‘realised’ more than their clientele – and living that truth – why shouldn’t they be ‘ordinary’ otherwise, eg sometimes stupid or otherwise ‘unimpressive’, like me and, presumably, you, Dominic?

                  Also, as I suggested earlier, a fair segment of your jaundiced disillusion might stem from other factors in your life, not just what you seem to regard as a series of massive con-tricks perpetrated by a bunch of self-serving phoneys. If so, are you dealing with that stuff?

                  But I ask you again:
                  Are you grateful for nothing at all from your ‘spiritual affiliations’? Apart from finally realising it was all a total waste of time?

                  PS: I’ve gone on much longer than planned at first, but will add more tomorrow, as the points I originally wrote come back to mind.

                  PPS: The song I recommended that you couldn’t find is Travelling Alone, by Ron Sexsmith. Try it on Last.fm

                • Lokesh says:

                  Some like it hot.

          • satyadeva says:

            I’ve just spent a long time writing a reply to this, including details of benefits received from ‘spiritual associations’ – but the blasted thing simply disappeared from the page just as I was finishing it.

            Cue utter fury at the wretched computer – why do they make them so ultra-sensitive therefore prone to let you down if your finger hovers a micro-millimetre away from the spot? – and I won’t be bothering again tonight.

  47. Fresch says:

    I do not know and that is also not my point. There has been this story of the last words..and I just wanted to be specific..I like frank’s “get a life into yourself”..

  48. Fresch says:

    However, bankers know what is Black Swan effect, so I am excited.

    • Arpana says:

      All the evidence suggests Bankers don’t know what a Black Swan effect is and they haven’t learned by experience.
      They have behaved, behave as if everything is totally predictable.

  49. shantam prem says:

    Fresch says, “The last words (according to Amrito) were “ Anando will be my medium”
    As per Indian religious jargon, if you have some person in your mind at last moment, it means you are not free from the wheel.

    Even I leave you my dream is bit too much, specially from the master who was predicting two third of humanity will perish because of Aids and burden of over population and nuclear war and what not…

  50. Fresch says:

    Arpana, I knew you love the concept. Of course bankers are behind. That’s the beauty of it.

  51. Fresch says:

    Shantam, to be “not free from the wheel” is a philosophical idea..

  52. Fresch says:

    And John Lenon had a Rolls-Royce already in the 1960s…to irritate the British conservative people

  53. dominic says:

    I guess at the end of the day, Osho may have just been lonely.
    Early childhood abandonment and trauma, getting farmed out to his grandparents etc.
    Trying to get love by being a super special “Master”, surrounding himself with slavering yes people, and finding none of it worked to ease the pain, so he took to drugs, cars, watches, clothes, books, acolytes and Kontrol.
    The only person who ever got close to him killed herself.
    It all just took it’s toll.
    Well it’s a theory anyway.

    • Lokesh says:

      Someone to claim us, someone to follow
      Someone to shame us, some brave Apollo.
      David Bowie
      (Apollo has been variously recognized as a god of light and the sun, truth and prophecy, healing, music, poetry, and owning the greatest fleet of chariots ever known.)

  54. shantam prem says:

    Future masters have to learn much from the life of Osho.
    If you have army of International disciples in your regiment, chose one commander in Chief(Successor) before going to, “Never coming again back to the earth”, journey.
    Even if you don´t chose, strongest one among them will anyway behave like the chosen one, and that is not gentlemanly at all.

  55. shantam prem says:

    To be truthful when I read the posts of my fellow bloggers who were crawling on their knees before Acharya, Bhagwan or Osho reminds me of the pizzas who were in the oven for half the stipulated time.
    Half cooked Swami Pizza Anand, Swam Bodhi Pizza, Swami Pizza Samundra etc. etc. who think rest of the cooking will be done on the plate!

  56. Parmartha says:

    I think one of Dom’s problems and others on this site, in their seeming blanket condemnations of teachers, is that they are unfamiliar with the notion of the Trickster in Native American mythologies – also known as the Shadow, Creator, and Fool. That culture was a long way from Anglo Saxon moralities – the world into which Lokesh, Frank, Dom, SD and myself were born.
    One could do well to see Joseph Campbell utube, etc on this. He was very good on this subject.
    Of course if one distrusts everyone publicly offering their wisdom, then the only course is that of the acolyte hermit, and nothing wrong with that. Just I have always felt working with someone and with a sangha around someone, is so much more fun. But that maybe simply because I am a “sociable” type.
    But isn’t Dom having fun here? !

    • dominic says:

      Wait there’s more!… Amma, sai baba, mahesh yogi, muktananda, nityananda, kalki, adi da, chinmoy, ramesh balsekar, rudi, andrew cohen, gurumayi, 3HO, ravi shankar, kripalu, chogyam trungpa, sogyal rinpoche, bikram yoga, amrit desai kripalu, john friend, john de ruiter, kalindi, werner erhard, satchidananda, maharaji, yogananda, kriyananda, shimano roshi, genpo roshi, sasaki, richard baker, taizan maezumi …. The list goes on and on of abuse, including sexual abuse and paedophilia, drugs, addiction, amassing great wealth, and general sham, coverups and moral turpitude.
      Anybody wants to be a guru, cut their knackers off.
      Then keep them under surveillance and webcast it like the big brother house.
      Tough love? Maybe. But it’s the only way!

      • satyadeva says:

        Vast majority of that list I’ve either never heard of or couldn’t be bothered with anyway. And most are Indians. Contrary to what you might like to believe, Dominic, I’m not a great lover of ‘your average Indian guru’, with just one or two exceptions.

        Although I did get to see Sai Baba at his ashram, back in ’96, when the group I travelled with were summoned to his ‘inner chambers’. I enjoyed that trip, although it was clear to me that Sai Baba was basically a guru for the East, specifically probably India, certainly not the West.

        A thought comes to mind:
        You say people like to follow gurus and place them ‘on high’ to compensate for ‘feeling small’ themselves.
        One might equally claim that making a major focus in one’s life of ‘cutting them down to size’ by seeking out all with various hints of ‘scandal’ surrounding them is a neat way of achieving a similar end.

        Truth in both suggestions, but not in all cases (as is so often the case). But is the latter so in yours (heaven forbid!)?!

        • dominic says:

          Satya Diva,
          Sai baba was a paedophile, pervert and a sham.
          If you’re ill-informed and defensive about all your “unimpeachable” avatars, deflecting my points with personal attacks and distortion, dressed up as psychology, what’s the point?
          It’s childish, churlish, and unintelligent conversation.
          I’m saying the age of the guru is dead.
          The trail of abuse and fakery they have left in their wake is too big.
          Conservative eastern traditions go apeshit in western cultures, and the 60′s generation romanticised and put blinders on their failings.
          “Cutting down to size” means to a human level, not higher or lower than.
          It’s not a “major focus” in my life.
          But truth and reality… is interesting.
          If you stick gangaji and byron katie in my face as moral examplars, then I cry bullshit and you’re an ignorant fool!
          But the fact is you can revere them all, in a regressed state, until death do you part.
          The need seems to be gone for me, and it feels freer and lighter that way.
          But what have you gained from say, the mother and the mirror? Did ye get healed?
          http://youtu.be/buBJY9GUnlA

        • Arpana says:

          Did you notice he invited you to
          a special meeting of special people
          who will lead you towards
          the truth and the light.

          That reminds me of something.
          Cant get the word.
          Struggling to get it.
          Begins with C.
          Then an H, then R.
          What is it do you think?

          • dominic says:

            Mr Copy/paste, let’s face it you have so little to contribute, and when you do it usually goes like this.

            That reminds me of something
            Can’t get the word
            Struggling to get it
            Begins with C.
            Then an R, then A.
            What is it do you think?

        • Arpana says:

          If you decide to go to that meeting to be lead towards the truth and the light you will need to learn the words of this song.

          That, ahem, special group of special people, who know the truth and the light always sing this song.


          The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

    • dominic says:

      Yes Parmartha, I’ll try not to be so anglo-saxon, with sai baba molesting little boys, or those wacky trickster zen masters and Tibetans like trungpa, and his promiscuous bisexual successor osel tendzin with aids, fcuking his students.
      From wiki…
      “Other behavior was troubling as well. As one scholar who has studied the community noted, Tendzin was “bisexual and known to be very promiscuous” and “enjoyed seducing straight men” but the community “did not find [this behavior] particularly troublesome.” Not all his partners were unwilling; one scholar noted “it became a mark of prestige for a man, gay or straight, to have sex with the Regent, just as it had been for a woman to have sex with [Trungpa] Rinpoche.”However, at least one student reported that Tendzin had raped him. As a former Vajradhatu member attested, “a chilling story had recently been reported by one of . . .[the] teachers at the Buddhist private school [for the Vajradhatu community]. This straight, married male was pinned face-down across Rich’s desk by the guards [the Dorje Kasung] while Rich forcibly raped him.”
      It was revealed in 1989 that Ösel Tendzin had contracted HIV, and for nearly three years knew it, yet continued to have unprotected sex with his students, without informing them. He transmitted HIV to a student who later died of AIDS. Others close to Tendzin, including the board of directors of Vajradhatu, knew for two years that Tendzin was HIV positive and sexually active, but kept silent.”

      It’s not a penis, it’s my vajra sword of wisdom!
      Lucky you. Lucky us.
      Where would we be without these noble benefactors of humanity?
      Guess I’m just too black and white and ought to loosen up a little. That’s crazy wisdom for you!
      Silly me. What a hoot!

      P.S. I know you’re not condoning these carry-ons, but crazy wisdom is a slippery slope. And basically to me… If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck… It’s a duck.
      People in these and other communities say nothing for years through elaborate rationalizations, or to put it another way… 50 different varieties of mindfcuk soup.

      You probably know the Castaneda books of the famous trickster yaqui indian, don juan, were all made up? What a trickster!

      “Nizhónígo Nináánááhai Dooleeł” (happy new year in navajo)
      And may your mocassins make happy tracks!

      • frank says:

        parmartha,
        the idea of the “trickster” in tribal or “primitive” myth and “crazy wisdom” in guru traditions being one and the same thing, implying `drastic means to shake eg anglosaxons,teutons and logical westerners out of their rigid minds`…. is a mistaken assumption,(and sooo 1970s.)

        tribal societies were,and are,extremely rigid.
        the “trickster archetype” is a naturally occurring factor in the psyche of those people to balance that rigidity with the unpredictable. there is no evidence that he is a person. he is a dream-figure,a mythical occurrence.
        something akin to: if you try to be celibate ,your unconscious and your dreams (myth for the tribe) will create `sexy seductive archetypes` as a balance and homeostasis for the system.
        the idea that a specific person,a teacher totally embodies this function is completely unreal and inflated. and leads to the people who believe in such nonsense ending up absolutely buggered.
        if they are lucky ,just psycho-spiritually. if less lucky,literally, as in the case of osel tensings and paedo babas victims.
        one of the reasons is this.
        the trickster is not an authority figure.
        if you are a schoolkid and you play a joke on your peers,it is a practical joke.thats like a trickster.
        if a senior boy plays a practical joke on a newboy,it is not trickster ,it is bullying and intimidation.
        see what I mean?

        • Arpana says:

          Archetypes have a dark and light side surely Frankus.
          You’ve described the dark and light trickster.
          Well it’s a spectrum of behavior.

          Youre a trickster.

          Your really lively and funny and stir things up mischievously, and occasionally you edge to wards bullying.

          • frank says:

            you`re probably right about the bullying.
            if I’m honest,theres a few guys on SN whom I would love to hang upside down with their shoelaces from a high-level cistern with their heads suspended in the toilet bowl and pull the flush and leave them there for a while, in time-honoured harry flashman fashion!!!

            happy new year!
            yahoo!

            • dominic says:

              Yes but only after I’ve thrown up and taken a dump in their first!

              A New year, a New you.
              Take Swami Spermananda’s online Guru DIY course.
              Raise your kundalini and your Shivalingam.
              Make every orifice yours!
              Circumcision – 10% off.

            • Arpana says:

              Happy New Year to you as well Frank.

              \\(<..>)//

    • Lokesh says:

      What about Loki?

    • dominic says:

      Well framed frank. 
      Jung covered the trickster archetype quite well.
      Osho helped to mythologize all the tibetan, zen and yoga stories, but reality is usually not like that.
      Many zen, tibetan and yoga lineages have been rife with scandal and abuse over the last years. These asian traditions often seem to embody a patriarchical sexual entitlement and attitude to women, in regards to high spiritual status, which is perhaps favoured back home.
      The dalai lama endorses lamas he should denounce because of this. Remember Tibet was a very feudal theocratic society. Sogyal (soggy bottom) Rinpoche is a case in point who has over 130 centres, with rigpa in london.
      Here’s an expose – “in the name of enlightenment”
      http://youtu.be/yWhIivvmMnk

    • roman says:

      Parmartha,
      You’ve raised an important point about a Sangha. Buddhism has the problem of clinging to old rituals and being an ossified religion or becoming an individualistic new age movement which is perfect for yuppie capitalists. I agree that a Sangha is important and perhaps it isn’t just to do with being a sociable type but being in communion with people who are concerned about life on this planet. We know how many species are disappearing. I have an affinity with the Chinese Cold Mountain poets who formed connections with each other and nature.
      I like the way you brought in the trickster. I did my own research on this figure in the Western tradition. We all read John Fowles ‘The Magus’ centuries ago and others like Jung and Eliade have been mentioned. Jung did point out that the trickster was unpredictable and there was a dark side. The trickster isn’t a magus like Prospero in Shakespeare’s The Tempest. Hamlet also comes to mind because he’s dealing with the patriarchy and he has to use all sorts of trickery. Hermes is also living in a liminal space, betwixt and between, and is the god of thieves and trickery. We are obviously getting a bit hermetic here. One could also bring in Jesus from the gospels who spoke in riddles. A bit of a Ridley Walker. We also have a tradition of Druidism and Shamanism in European culture. We all know about Shiva. A guy by the name of Coomaraswamy wrote ‘The Dance of Shiva’ which I love. Interesting that most of these books are in Osho’s library but I guess he was just a talking plagiarist.
      It was T.S.Eliot who said ‘Great poets steal and bad poets borrow’.
      Bob Dylan concurred and said if you want to know where I’m at study those who came before me and who inspired me. Now is Dylan a bit of a trickster?
      Finally a wonderful recent book (1998) is ‘Trickster – Makes this World’ by Lewis Hyde. It has been raved about by some really creative people.
      Even the Scotsman John Burnside finds it wonderful. Now there’s a poet.

  57. prem Martyn says:

    Life is one long Bus Ride.

    A Bus Riding Guide for the not quite Illuminati and Bus-Passed Pensionati.

    Sannyas News has a well endowed and firm reputation in bringing you the ultimate in life mastering techniques for the elderly to get to grips with.

    With advice now pouring in from all four corners of living rooms around the world, the Sannitized News moderators have dug deep into their petty cash tin and now bring you this New Year’s jam packed guide to the latest in double-decker travel.
    Tired of going round the bend on your own ? Do the wheels of your bus go chitter, chitter, chatter ? Do you keep yourself pointlessly Bus-y without stopping ? Do you still feel routeless after years of waiting ? Is spirituality just one Big Bus-iness ? Do you car-e any more ? Well hold on tight and order your free copy of :

    Tales of the Kalahari Busmen and other South African Singalongs

    http://www.wikihow.com/Enjoy-Yourself-on-a-Long-Bus-Ride

  58. shantam prem says:

    dominic says:
    31 December, 2013 at 1:49 pm
    I guess at the end of the day, Osho may have just been lonely.
    Early childhood abandonment and trauma, getting farmed out to his grandparents etc.
    Trying to get love by being a super special “Master”, surrounding himself with slavering yes people, and finding none of it worked to ease the pain, so he took to drugs, cars, watches, clothes, books, acolytes and Kontrol.
    The only person who ever got close to him killed herself.
    It all just took it’s toll.
    Well it’s a theory anyway.

    If this is the psychological sketch of Osho, then I wonder what must be for Mr. or Mrs. Dominic or thousands others including me.
    Life as a child must be very very bad, may be rootless children born out of incest! No idea, whose name one should carry?
    And it went on….Swamis catching girls in the name of Tantric love making and leaving them as self sufficient Ma´s!
    Quite often History repeats itself!

    Sometime I wonder, Indian masters of the past were so greedy to have western disciples and vice versa, without acknowledging unfitting unions are not good foundations for long term satisfying relations.

  59. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    beloveds,

    around midnight here in munic-germany
    there have been ear-waves of cracking “böllers” how they are called here and fire crackers too
    now
    the last before the last last minute it s cooling down a little
    and then in a few minutes the crescendo ultimately again… guess so
    that s how it goes
    the small children playing outside with the event together with their mothers and fathers and uncles and aunts
    already in bed by now
    they had fun a few hours before
    now
    it s so called adult time…. imagine…adult-time

    then the hugging rituals….
    some false and some real tears to go
    as promises
    may be some laughter too
    who knows

    the air already so sticky that i closed the windows a few minutes ago
    because it s done now
    the 2014 clockers

    i m in the sitting posture
    and in the midst of the challange to give
    an answer to “the bus-ride” with you fellow travelers on a virtual bus
    (quite bumpy the road i must say –
    and thank you pramartha- was it you?-for posting some decent recommendations for participating the ride..)

    a little break just now
    “it happened “!!!!
    new years huggings added to my posting…from the here -now solitude..

    outside neighborhood
    my windows quite foggy with rust-dust by now
    some are greating
    although they never greet on every days term
    they are on the big it-bugging it hacking and stalking terror game throughout the few years i m at this place
    they like to play with real lives – like mine – a way a computer game is done
    and may be would love to get a video out of it
    for a neighborhood soap they can sell how they sell other things

    but on this new years eve they just gave that a short break
    (may be or may not be )
    quite a male proceeding as it is quite a male oriented pacha surrounding here

    thats why i know so much about rapes by my own female authority gained out of experience
    also about these kinds of being raped in “modern times” with modern male ways to intrude and penetrate without being invited

    that s what a rape is

    they like it

    their women like to peep that too
    when they are not harmed themselves but belong to the peep show gang
    they give the life of a “sister” a shit

    thats the way that is here

    and they will like these kind of games in the new year too i presume
    because
    raping a women this way is fun or an increasing number of people who are into jungle tv shows and want to make one realized themselves
    free and easy at flat rate rape conditions
    what do i say
    its not even flat rate raping
    the raping per trojaner and hacking
    is per null-tarif
    sometimes fun for the whole family with the teenie kids and even the more younger kids
    they are being trained this way for the “changing world” we are all living in
    and they need a living being to practise and entertain the games

    that s how it was the last years and plus the decade before
    news
    from the laptop “lederhosen-stadt” and multicultural inhabitants
    and their levels of bad taste in interdependent (in-HUMAN)
    TRAFFIC AFFAIRS

    decent “bus regalements” don t work here
    but i liked the posting of them like a soothing lullaby
    and thank you for this my friend

    (nothing compared to london s busses i guess
    me also i came to know varieties of that
    when i used to travel
    far and wide
    not only in england
    the same kind of changes in human minds and hearts and mentalities
    it seems

    ups this may be a long one…this time

    if i then push the comment button

    i still do not know that….
    as loving is not a game but a happening
    it either happens
    or not
    i want to share that i ve been driven to more than just look at you
    throughout your postings
    that s need pratise on my side
    as well as inside myself in watching whatsoever is triggered and comes up
    as well as to the effort
    (i the peak moments an effortless effort too)
    as it is up to now
    obviously neither wanted nor intended to meet personally in the bodies
    from my side its kind of aborigine pull
    can t and also won t help it
    if you know what i mean

    when i ve been more on a bliss wave
    i wrote poems
    some of them
    very beautiful

    but either their time is gone
    or have to wait to be shared

    dominic- i wish to share with you (and some others) that a harsh and cynical and sarcastic approach is a kind of very honest one
    but got stuck like the wheels of a bus on a ride through the desert
    and thats difficult then for everybody
    being together

    so how to get
    some
    water of life
    is then and there the question

    not only for you
    but for everybody

    i feel
    the huge amount of postings altogether gives real insights on this buasride
    of and to all the aspects in the titele of the whole thing

    so SN may be modestly pronounce
    that the issue
    as far as it is one

    has had got many many answers
    hasn t it ???

    ohhhh
    the bus driver s calling

    “hurry up girl he says”
    chuckeling…….

    “take yur seat
    fasten your seat-bell”
    “don t be so choosy”

    is s NEW YEARS EVE by now
    silence again
    the night is the night is the night
    also in busses

    MADHU-me
    had a sip of red vine

    • Ashok says:

      My Dearest Madhu Dagmar Frantzen,

      Thank you for taking the time to reply, as many others here would surely not.

      Firstly, I EARNESTLY BEG YOU TO LOOK AGAIN AT THE CONTEXT in which my remarks occurred: I was innocently responding to a poem in which 2 strangers both willingly consent to openly fornicate in a public transport carriage. It was not rape on a bus… which is what you imply and suggest due to events elsewhere, is it not? Dearest Dagmar I put it to you that your impressionable imagination may have carried you away by my use of the word ‘jail.’ When I wrote this I had fantastically conceived the possibility of some beautiful woman and I going from being ‘love birds’ to ‘jail birds’ due to the crime of indecent and lewd behavior (indelickto flagrante), in a public place.

      Secondly, YOU WRONGFULLY ACCUSE ME OF BEING DRUNK, and in so doing succeeded in wounding my soft tender heart and sensibilities. Would it surprise you to know that I have not touched a drop of the demon drink in years, and neither do I smoke tobacco nor take illicit or legal drugs, apart from, I must confess, the occasional aspirin that is!

      I do however, occasionally get drunk on ‘meself’ as it were, when the toxins induced by a surfeit of group therapy and meditation practice have built up in my frail mind and body (please take a look at my recently published and in popular demand, spiritual guide ‘1001 MEDITATIONS ON A BUS IN DARKEST AFRICA’, pub. by LadyBird Books for Children, for an insight into the symptoms). The Moderator here is fortunately aware of my oft decrepit condition and normally attends to any and all of my ass. unprintable and unmentionable stuff etc. before it reaches the sensitive amongst those present (incl. myself). Regrettably though, on occasion some manages to seep through the renowned SP brand of protective attire normally worn by the wise old men of this Abbey.

      Thirdly, YOU ADVISE OF THE NEED FOR CHANGE in not only my humble self but ‘others’, which I understood was a veiled reference to the Esteemed Brother P.M. I would suggest to you that in his case, you might be proposing a very difficult undertaking indeed, best not bothered with in my opinion, but it may be interesting to try if you are of a certain missionary zeal, proclivity and calling? Please apply yourself to him directly.

      Finally, YOU GRACIOUSLY INVITED ME TO JOIN WITH YOU IN THE TOASTING OF:

      ‘A Happy New Year’

      to all & sundry. I on the other hand in my own unconventional way, would propose to you that we come together at the same time (to be arranged), in celebrating:
      ‘A Satisfactory Conclusion & Happy Ending to 2013!’,
      with all the worthy viewers assembled on this site in attendance, instead. I think that this might be something more in keeping with the Master’s teachings. However, I am still open to further suggestion on your part.

      Please do not hesitate to get hold of me here at the Abbeys’s confessional box if you would like me to deal with any other bothersome queries or deep issues that you may have troubling your conscience in relation to my ‘poor and meek and lowly’ self. I would be more than happy to attend to and hopefully satisfy any future need which may arise.

      I remain sincerely yours,

      The Right Honorable & Reverend Brother Ashok

      • prem Martyn says:

        Dear Reverend A. Sock,

        I think you have put your foot in it there.

        Yours,
        shocked,
        Sister Myley Cirus…

        • Ashok says:

          Good idea, ta. I think I need a piece of rope as well tho’.

          Yours,
          Bound & Gagged,
          Reverend Sister Lady Gaga-Sludge

  60. Champak says:

    Lokesh,
    Thank you for sharing your experiences with Osho. Have a wonderful new year.
    Love,
    Champak

    • Lokesh says:

      Cool. Had a blast for Hogmanny. DJing at a mansion on a hill, with fatastic view of Ibiza city in the distance…city of tiny lights. I’ve been spinning tunes for dancers all of my adult life. Osho undestood perfectly the power of dance. That was always one of his greatest qualities. A veteran of dancefloors worldwide I’d say that sannyasins still know how to strutt their stuff when it comes to dance moves…they will dance at the drop of a hat. At my gigs the greatest compliment I can pay to anyone present is…you are a great dancer, I really enjoyed that you came. So wherever you are if you want to tune into something that may be the most fun part of anything remotely resembling Osho’s LEGacy it is to get up and dance. I am doing my bit to keep this part of Osho’s heritage alive and kicking. Not only that it keeps one fit and loose and young. So raise your hands in the air like you just don’t care…if there’smusic you can use it…
      Man what a kick-off into 2014. I’m buzzing.

      • dominic says:

        Well that’s getting your LEGacy over.
        If I raise my hands in the air… I hear triple Oshos being shouted. Must be post-traumatic stress disorder…
        “I’m buzzing”
        - Apoidea Lokeshae commonly known as ibiza bee.
        Currently doing my bit holding osho’s silence.
        Hola, bon any nou

  61. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    dear mr ashok (at 1. january 2014, 7.01 am)

    your contribution in human affaires was just post now by the? server
    to your kind of brotherhood
    i don t feel acquainted at all

    but to be nice and polite i will try to answer you
    (or the kind of game-upfucking tribes of new age brotherhoods)

    ba inner doctor said

    girl
    if you feel like vomting
    its good to doe the dirty dishes
    then have a shower
    and then take as much of fresh air as possible

    the first steps i ve done
    the others will follow

    and thank you for the reminder
    of bumpy bus trails and people i it
    so thank you for this

    and another answer to your slime
    will NOT follow
    i remember that dominic laved and appreciated the posting of yours you mentioned
    and you imagined that me- i could t have understanding
    right understanding of

    so why not go to the brotherhoods aspirin bar and meet some of your brothers who understand you better than me

    have a good morning
    and meeting brothers
    may be sisters of your tribe too

    and
    i know i can t help it

    …. up to the next moment i m seeing you on the bus..

    i say

    auf wiedersehen
    and good bye too

    yours honorable MADHU etc
    ps
    love vine
    love lots of smoking cigarette
    loved (just now one of my legs trying to heal because it was broken)
    loved the dance like anything
    love music

    etc

  62. dominic says:

    Rereading Lokesh’s post there’s a lot of grounded commonsense there.
    It’s a truism to say Osho’s approach was innovative and integrative.
    The meditations were groundbreaking, and there are many people who today would benefit from them, as most people are too much in their heads, and need some more oomph to get them going, rather than just watching their breath etc.
    For the oldies it’s the spirit that’s important apart from the technique and structure. Feeling the body, the energy, the emotions, moving, expressing, letting go, being present. With this in mind people can make up their own If need be. There was nothing mystical about their structure as far as I’m concerned but more a convenience for the constraints of a group medtitation.

    The other point is that the experience was as much about the ” buddhafield” for me as about who Osho was. The creativity, inspiration and longing that people brought to it was also their doing, and the juice of it drew me and still does though it’s a much broader church now.
    I think that sometimes goes unacknowledged in all the gurucentric discussions.
    Perhaps Osho would have even benefited from doing some of the groups himself. Namaste.

    • Ashok says:

      Dominic wrote:

      “The meditations were groundbreaking, and there are many people who today would benefit from them, as most people are too much in their heads, and need some more oomph to get them going rather than just watching their breath etc.”

      Yes they were certainly groundbreaking alright in more ways than one -obviously I have Dynamic in mind in particular, Hoo, Hoo , ha, ha! However, in keeping with Dominic’s intended meaning here, it is clear to me also, that Osho’s genius can be witnessed thru his meditations.

      Furthermore, for somebody like me who was not around when he was alive, they provide an intimate and principal point of contact, naturally generating respect and appreciation for the benefits experienced.

      Many here and elsewhere talk of the special experience of being in Osho’s charismatic and ‘magical’ presence. My natural instincts lead me to be skeptical of this response, suspecting that it may be self-induced and projected, for whatever reason. Having said that, I do not necessarily pooh-pooh all those who make the claim, having met some very sensible and grounded individuals who do. I therefore try to keep an open mind about it, but feel slightly suspicious nonetheless.

      I can certainly, in my own case, testify to the magic and oomph that the meditation practices provide, which seem to relax me in a very deep and profound way.

      I remember being in a ‘finding your voice’ type group (not in Pune or Osho associated), in which we were asked to create a melody to go with poems we had all written. We were then given a couple of days to come up with the goods before performing the song in front of the whole group (about 35 in number). Oh shitty pantus -stress. Try as hard as I could nothing came out of me bonzo and the stress started to increase. On the morning of the dreaded day scheduled for singing my song, I did a Dynamic meditation which relaxed me and thus I decided to not worry any further about mentally groping around for a melody. I thought it might be more interesting to see what would come up in the fearful moment when stood before the group later that day. There was no need however! Shortly after I had a flash of inspiration (literally a white one in my head), and this melody suddenly appeared from nowhere. It went perfectly with the lyrics I had composed. I did not even need to tinker with it to make it fit.

      Job done in a flash.

  63. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    namaste dominic,namaste (to your posting1.1.2014.at 3.37 pm)

    strange that is
    how the gold nuggets so to say
    even resist the flux of time
    what is gone by this moment already
    as well as my words are gone
    the moment i write them down
    ti give you the most graceful “namaste” i m able of
    knowing that it is gone already
    (and what about servers to say which don t serve ???)

    yet
    as i said it already
    why not give it a try
    nothing to loose
    (nothing to win either…huhuhuhhhh)

    have a nice evening when that may be reaching you next morning or so…

    happy smile- madhu

  64. shantam prem says:

    Once spoken osho words were gracing the official website, when i heard them i had a feeling, functionaries hardly listen Osho, otherwise how come such words still circulate. They should be deleted for ever, Mr. Chariman!

    No-Thought for the Day ®

    We don´t need a better man, we need a new man. Betterment has gone on for centuries and nothing has happened. Now we don´t need any better man — enough is enough! Now we want a totally new man, discontinuous with the past.
    We want to begin again as if we are Adam and Eve,
    just now expelled from the Garden of Eden.

  65. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    dear shantam prem ( 1. january 2014 at9.20 pm)

    your heartily requesting a DREAM and longing seems to be one of the
    john lennon s songbook
    it is so understandable as beautiful too

    remembering though
    how this fellow has been killed by contracted killers when he seemingly reached his longing to belong somewhere and sing his songs -
    does not diminish the joy of dreaming and enjoying the essence of dreams

    but reality teaches a lesson too
    and that lesson is
    (besides other lessons) that the caretaking of dreams of this kind of beauty
    is not all in our hands

    as well as the safety in our bus tours in the virtual realms

    my understanding by now comes close to the fact that it is a moment-to-moment adventure
    sometimes i can cope with that
    sometimes not

    and that is that what the chance of living gives to us
    not more and not less

    its late
    it is night now here

    i woke up
    as i have been fallen asleep and the telvision still ran
    in the television a remembering movie-wise -the famous artist and painter GOYA and his life story
    his cowardess as an artist
    (so to say – a super dreamer – also a realistic after-dreamer of nightmares with his brushes and colour-paintings of the middle ages reality…)
    his cowardess as a dreamer lead in his life to a lifelong regret (later)
    that he did not take care of the fate of one of his role models for his paintings
    when he could have done so
    his female model who ended up tortured by klerikal bastards of this rotten time
    people though of power and influence who made his material living
    as an artist

    history sometimes repeats innumerous ways
    i feel it important to know that
    when entering the one or the other greyHOUND or double- decker busses
    to go on (dream)rides

    it is very nice to sing songs together
    it is also very nourishing to sit together in silence
    it is very beautiful to be in a dreaming of sharing

    i feel it not quite in our hands what comes out of it

    there is no reason
    not to celebrate the dreamings

    send a little dream to you just now
    don t know if you like to read it

    that s life s insecurities

    good night

    madhu

  66. prem Martyn says:

    For anyone still wondering if life is unfair or whether natural justice actually exists as a satisfying alternative , then here’s a reminder of what instant Karma is.

    Be careful out there with too much inferiority-complexed, pontificating wilful invincibility…one never knows when the Road Runner effect will turn best efforts into an hilarious cartoon of unforeseen results .

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bullet-bounces-off-robbery-victims-face-and-shoots-mugger-dead-9031593.html

  67. shantam prem says:

    Disciples and Boobs have got one thing in common,
    Never ever ask, ” Are they real?”

    Thou shall not judge too loudly!

  68. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    beloveds

    my last posting yesterday evening (1.1.2014 evening time) referring to shantam perm s posting (1.1.2014,evening time? too ??)
    well
    i m seeing it now being posted one day after

    at least my answer must have gone through a “server” somewhere
    like these servers which are serving financial capitalists black(swan???) abysses

    (MOD: MADHU, MOST POSTS AT SN ARE MANUALLY ‘PUBLISHED’ SO THEY APPEAR DURING NORMAL EUROPEAN WAKING HOURS, IE NOTHING TO DO WITH VAGARIES OF CYBERSPACE!)

    to make as much as money or better said good fortunes without working for it but let others work or die..)
    may be it s gone over australia or china or some areas like the islands being possessed by financial capitalist mongers and their games….

    as i saw it in one of the very rare documentaries
    there are guys in london (and elsewhere)
    just sitting watching their screens on the computers
    saying
    we don t need to do anything anymore
    the machine does the ratings in less that nano”seconds”
    that s artificial “intelligence and it has taken over already
    this man
    interviewed was in awe and wonder but didm t seem happy AT ALL
    he probably knew better than most of us that he might be the human being NEXT
    to become what we here call “überflüssig”
    his grief if he has been able for such an kind of becoming anachronistic feeling
    was hardly noticeable BUT was still noticeable
    like an echo from some faraway corner….

    thats what a good documentary even now in the digital “nirvana times”
    shows/showed up with
    and that may be dissolving too
    soon

    what to say friends in the bus-
    can t keep these words coming up
    which may be connected to another (dream-)song

    “wish your were here…”

    when i didn t have reasons to dream that kind of dreams
    listening the beauty of these recordings
    i felt more connected to a human humanly brother-sisterhood

    so i confess this morning
    the second of january 2014 – from the here.now.de

    that artificial intelligence and its ways
    don t nourish me at all
    and i m hungry for breakfast just now

    not only physically

    what about your conditionings????
    how are you doing friends????
    are you well ???

    i wish you are well
    and give you a hello
    to “out there”

    madhu

  69. roman says:

    There’s been a few references to rapes occurring in India. To quote Lokesh ‘New Delhi being the rape capital of the world.’ It would be nice to know where this information comes from?
    In 2010 the United nations Office on Drugs and Crime found the incidence of rape to be ’1.8 per 100,000 people, compared with, for example, 27.3 in the US, 28.8 in the UK, 63.5 in Sweden, and 120.0 in South Africa. The number of recorded rapes in India is certainly a substantial underestimate, but even if we take five times – or ten times – that figure, the corrected and enlarged estimates of rapes would still be substantially lower in India than in the US, the UK, Sweden, or South Africa (even with the assumption that there is no underreporting in these other countries).’
    I’m quoting from an article by Noble Prize Winner Amartya Sen’s ‘India’s Women : The Mixed Truth.’ New York Review of Books October 10, 2013. ‘Rape and brutality against women are not exactly unknown around the world.’ Sen’s article highlights the complexity of gender issues in India and is worth reading.

    • Lokesh says:

      At the time of writing the article it just happened that I read a BBC news report on yet another mass rape of a young woman in Delhi. Knowing India and Indians reasonably well from having lived there for over a decade it is not unreasonable, also taking into account the recent well publicised news articles covering rape in Delhi, to say that there is a major problem with rape on the Indian subcontinent. It was convenient for me to use this to emphasize a point in relation to why Indian sannasins were not allowe to participate in the Poona One group experiment. Generally speaking, I’d judge Indians to be sexually repressed in the extreme, say in comprison to European people. I’m sure you catch my drift. I’m well aware that in he Congo etc rape is a fact of daily life for many unfrtunate African women.

  70. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    dearest SN moderators
    thank you so much of your soothing reply in the midst of my utterings

    are you using the clock time of harry potter-for grown-ups clock ????

    then i bow
    i have to bow down
    to your clock
    (would have to do that anyway—-isn t it ?)

    little-shy-laughter-madhu
    i m a beginner
    every-moment-like this one

    unexperienced like anything in these realms

    thank you

    for reminding me

    yours

    madhu

    MOD: THANK YOU, MADHU.
    NO IDEA WHAT HARRY POTTER TIME IS THOUGH…BUT YES, DON’T WORRY, SN TIME IS GROWN-UP (OR EVEN GROAN-UP AT TIMES) TIME!

  71. prem Martyn says:

    Roman,
    That’s because in India rape may legally be conducted within marriage, whereas in at least some of those western countries you mention it is majorally committed by people already known to the victim. (I won’t enter into statistical exchanges here as its not my bag, but this one is fairly familiar methinks )

    http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

    In highly deferred sexualised, mentalised, imagistic, competitive societies without the consequent opportunities for sensuality and neutral significant engagement, there is endemic sexual and amorous starvation even opportunity to explore from a young age between consenting individuals. Think state schools’ libidinous control and corporate work slave houses where people eventually shack up after a booze up.
    It’s what Sannyas tried hard to address , complete with epoch riven failings,and mishaps, but it’s what many many posters here benefitted from and other Gurus and teachers wouldn’t touch with a bargepole.
    Including those proto adepts who would rather have a sanitized version of virtuousness as a convenient emotive safety/identity.

    (MOD: SOME EDITING HERE)

    • roman says:

      Martyn,

      Thank you.
      Sen points out that a major problem is the estimated female – male ratio at birth. It varies from State to State. I think you get my drift.

  72. shantam prem says:

    There are people who have extraordinary mind in the sense, they think their pee is better than Coke.
    “My dick is the best, my women has the best boobs, my children have the best degrees, where I live is the navel of the world, my values are unsurpassable, I have no head but two hearts and vice versa” kind of mind set.
    With every religious study, this kind of mind gets refiner everyday.
    These kind of people find thousands and one reasons to create eclipse around Osho and India and rising moon around the life they follow.

    Why not start the enquiry from yourself and your surroundings?

    • Lokesh says:

      Coming from you Shantypants the following statement is patently absurd. ‘Why not start the enquiry from yourself and your surroundings?’ You are about the last person on this site that I would imagine capable of following such a suggestion. You generally come across as someone completely fixated on wanting to change externals rather than enquiring about yourself or current surroundings. Is this your way of fullfilling Osho’s legacy in regards constantly contradicting yourself? Saying one thing while actualy doing the exact opposite?

  73. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    roman,(2.1.2014 at 1.08)

    pleas roman,
    ponder about and sit IN your statement again

    and please deep enough
    to MEET yourself in it

    thank you for this

    if that happens
    and thank you all
    anyway

    madhu

    • roman says:

      Madhu,
      It is hardly my statement. The disturbing figures are from the UN and I was quoting an article from an Indian Nobel Prize winner.
      Thank you for your civil reply.

  74. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    and dear lokesh,

    by the way

    the women you mentioned
    who was raped
    and then raped again by those who pretended to come for help

    IS DEAD
    BY NOW
    SHE DIED IN THE HOSPITAL

    may be one of those
    who eagerly “tried” to evolve in male standards , martin and roman and whosoever ??

    you feel i am bitter
    and thats honestly the way it is

    sometimes

    because more than one bitter cup has to be digested

    i am not that young though
    not to know
    that bitter cups have to be emptied by
    everybody

    just the timings of that
    is seemingly different

    sorry-madhu-needed-to -post-that

    madhu

    • roman says:

      Madhu,

      I like the way you expressed your idea of the bitter cup which we all understand. And the fact that it has to be regularly emptied.
      You certainly don’t have to apologize.
      You’ve made a strong and moving point.

  75. prem Martyn says:

    cool down madhu…

  76. Parmartha says:

    Well there are teachers and teachers, and gurus and gurus.
    I wonder whether sometimes those who comment here in a negative way are actually attacking the nature of the relationship itself, and not the individual teacher?
    A very good service run by someone who was a sannyasin is called
    Conscious TV. (in the UK). They are not commercial at all – and please take my word for it. (the atmosphere of universal mistrust created here sometimes in not good.)
    They just published a book of their early interviews at

    http://www.cherryred.co.uk/shopexd.asp?id=3300

    Now two questions, is such “service”, cos that is what it is, is of value. I would say it is, whatever ego others judge it to involve. And of the 26 or so people in their first book, can they all be just self seeking people who are looking for an easy buck. I very much doubt it.
    Surely the truth is that there are genuine teachers, and maybe not always so recognisable in normal ethical terms, and there are phonies. But if one gets tired of all teachers, then one does have the perfect right to privacy and one’s own personal growth as self devised. It is not that you are tired of the teachers really, but tired altogether of this type of relationship. Acknowledging such would help the debate.

    • frank says:

      I guess one of the problems is that people who believe in teachers also tend to “blanket” the issue
      for example SD has been lauding osho blong,meera,john de reuter and sai baba all together.
      the others may or may not be my cup of tea,but i doubt that they were/are paedophiles. paedo baba is clearly a paedo .and claiming to be god? how sick can you get?
      oddly enough ,theres only two types of people who believe that.
      paedophiles and “truth-seekers”.

      another difficulty is that the defences of all teachers by disciples are all so very similar.
      you parmartha were attempting to purvey the exact same nonsense with your ideas that maybe its all so-called tricksterism,devices, crazy wisdom etc that lead to the death by aids of at least 12 committed Buddhists in the osel case.
      and tho` i doubt that all those 26 or so are sexcriminals and conartists,in fact some of them are probably top geezers putting in a good shift for humanity,they are unfortunately playing many of the same types of games……

      • satyadeva says:

        Point of info, frank (and Dominic), I wasn’t “lauding” Sai Baba, I simply mentioned that I went on a group trip/holiday to his place 17 years ago, as an ‘adventure/novelty’, enjoyed the whole experience – and left sure that the guy wasn’t for me or indeed, westerners, but strictly for the East, perhaps specifically Indians. Hearing the ‘paedo’ stuff was certainly a shock, but no skin off my spiritual nose as I was never ‘into’ him, just curious.

        I suggest you didn’t read carefully enough, although perhaps I should have made it clearer that mentioning this jaunt was in order to make it clear that it was an exception to my general almost total lack of interest in the vast majority of other Indian gurus/teachers.

        Also, if one can happily list the ‘offenders’, why not do likewise with the others of one’s experience? I really don’t see the problem, but maybe I’m just too spiritually co-dependent?!

        • dominic says:

          SD, the fact that you didn’t know ‘Sigh’ baba was a paedo AND much more, says a lot. It is like trying to discuss quantum physics with a child who’s still learning his two times table. When you minimize serious wrongdoings with “hints of scandal”, and you’ve put blinkers on because you’ve invested years of misplaced adulation in the guru/disciple model, then you will always put authority outside of yourself, and be fodder for manipulation whether deliberate or simply deluded.

          • frank says:

            SD you did describe saibaba as a “guru for the east”
            your attitude to him was that he `wasn’t for you`,implying that he was a still a guru or teacher of some validity, rather than a pervert implicated in a raft of appalling crimes ranging from phoney magic tricks through paedophilia and up to murder.
            a bit of bias in favour of “teachers”there, surely?

            • satyadeva says:

              Frank, please note that, as I stated in the relevant posts, my visit and consequent impressions were in ’96, a long time before such accusations appeared. Profound apologies if I failed the mind-reader/clairvoyant test re Sai Baba’s hitherto unsavoury secrets!

              • frank says:

                yes but the post still referring to the “guru for the east” was written a few days ago,in 2014.
                time for an mental update,maybe?

                • satyadeva says:

                  Why assume such “a mental update” hasn’t already been made a long time ago, Frank?

                • frank says:

                  because your reference to him in 2014 was simply as a “guru for the east” .
                  you didn’t mention the other stuff.

                  it was like listening to someone say:
                  I was on `top of the pops once`.
                  didn’t like jimmy saville particularly, but he was a popular DJ with the girls .

                • satyadeva says:

                  Ok, fair point, I guess, although as I said, I only mentioned Sai Baba as one of the very few exceptions to my generally having been for many years uninterested in the vast majority of Indian or other eastern gurus/teachers.

                  As a matter of interest, I went there after my then partner and I randomly came across a guy, a hands-on ‘healer’, in some sort of ‘community fair’ in London, who happened to be a disciple of Sai Baba and who was organising a group trip to his ashram in Puttapathi. We thought about it, fancied a holiday and soon decided it sounded like a nice idea (with possible ‘spiritual benefits’, but of course).And as I said, it was a great trip. Why, Sai Baba himself even blessed me with his hand…on top of my head, I hasten to add (no snidey jokes please, chaps!).

          • satyadeva says:

            Another point of information, Dominic:
            I’ve been aware of all such accusations against Sai Baba for years. So perhaps I now qualify for a serious scientific discussion with your eminence?!

            I assume your final four line sentence is addressed to all, but if it’s aimed specifically at me then you’re barking up the wrong tree as I’ve never been one for “adulation in the guru/disciple model”, although I experience deep respect for the few teachers I’ve come across who I’ve found to be true.

            Again, you’re too dogmatic, too ‘black and white’, if what you’re suggesting is any connection with a guru/teacher is necessarily doomed to be or become such a destructive influence – in the negative sense – on what’s usually regarded as psychological health. (Although ultimately destructive it’s bound to be – ideally anyway – on patterns of person-al emotion and belief).

            That’s not to say you’re in any sense ‘wrong’ to stand where you are, for yourself, as, for you, ‘cutting the ties that bind’, in this area, would seem to be an imperative, vital for ‘individuation’. But your truth is not necessarily that of all or even any others, in fact it might not even be ‘the truth’ at all, just your version of it.

            • dominic says:

              Nice you’re getting up to speed SD.
              Might wanna get informed on gangaji and katie too, or ‘jaggi’ from below.
              I am not suggesting there aren’t any good apples, or just bruised ones, or that there’s nothing to learn.
              Parmartha’s point about the nature of the relationship, and basically what you bring to it, is the key, although corruption of one sort or another, seems fairly endemic, because of it’s inherent powerplay.
              In your case, you do seem to idealize them, thus disempowering your own inner guru, which is more than mere ‘individuation’, but a direct connection to ‘source’ and your own ‘inner knowing’, shall we say.

              • satyadeva says:

                Well, Dominic, I’ve already looked into those two women and found only the case of G’s husband’s secret 3 years affair, which they both didn’t mention during a couples’ workshop. Agree, not good to try to hide it, esp in that context, but hardly a major ‘crime’. After all, who’s to know they hadn’t already resolved the crisis between them and moved on? And I found no ‘dirt’ on Byron K.
                As for the Indian guy, I couldn’t give a stuff about him anyway.

                I wonder why you think I “idealize” gurus/teachers? And I wonder why you think respect for people who have helped you is so deeply suspect? And I wonder why you seem to think I don’t already know about contacting one’s “inner guru”?

                Again, I suggest you’re coming from a fixed idea, creating a convenient image of the other, rather than responding to what is actually on the page. Unless I’ve misrepresented myself something rotten!

              • satyadeva says:

                “Parmartha’s point about the nature of the relationship, and basically what you bring to it, is the key, although corruption of one sort or another, seems fairly endemic, because of it’s inherent powerplay.”

                SD:
                As I said yesterday, Parmartha’s point was essentially what I was trying to get at, but is it true that your expectations have not been met? And/or that you’re simply fed up to the back teeth with being told what’s true and what’s not, how to be, even, at times, what to do?

                Fair enough, if so. But for me it would be like throwing the baby out with the bath water as I find I still benefit from listening to and sometimes reading the words of teachers I find to be true. I find it uplifting and I still need ‘reminders’, plenty of them in fact. Which doesn’t imply that I worship these people, place myself in their power, or reduce my capacity to find the ‘inner guru’.

                And surely, any real teacher is interested in the other’s freedom, not in the ‘pupil’ becoming a mere ‘slave’? If that’s the case, then either you haven’t found a ‘real’ teacher or you have ‘authority’ or parental issues still alive and kicking (no judgment btw, as I’m certainly no stranger to those cans of worms). Or rather, perhaps, have had them but are now strong enough to discard them and stand alone?

                • dominic says:

                  Cry “parental issues” as much as you like. Authority issues are personal, global, cultural and historic, not just individually idiosyncratic.
                  When you say,
                  “If that’s the case, then either you haven’t found a ‘real’ teacher,”
                  I consider you yet again hoisted by your own petard.
                  It is this seeking of intermediaries, (how old are you now?) and imbibing of such hand me down tropes that is symptomatic of your dependency, dressed up in ‘seeker’ speech.
                  You imply you’ve found a ‘real teacher’, actually several, please delineate the lasting benefits and your imminent, if not readily apparent to us all, ‘enlightenment’.
                  Funny how little ‘enlightenment’ actually gets passed on by these pundits (or pundicks, excuse the pun but not the dicks.)

                • satyadeva says:

                  Good point about ‘authority’ issues, Dominic. As I said, I don’t necessarily or robotically disagree with all you say.

                  But again you make the classic mistake of assuming what’s good and true for you is, by definition, good and true for all. A sort of semi-authoritarian position itself!

                  So what if I enjoy and benefit from hearing and reading someone else’s wisdom and imbibing their pure energy? And so what if I’m 50, 60, 70 or older? Some of us have had a lot of ground to make up over the years after spending our early years as ‘non-runners’ or at best, ‘lame’. I happen to know, in my own experience, that it does me good, it’s helpful. If you, on the other hand, have seen through it all as useless, pointless, meaningless nonsense, then fine, that’s your reality, take it and enjoy it.

                  As for ‘enlightenment’, well, as I’ve said a few times at SN, that’s not and frankly never has been on my radar as even a remote likelihood, so you can forget scoring a point through bringing up another’red herring’. I’ve never had such high expectations – have you?

                  Sure, I’ll tell you a few benefits I’m grateful for, all in good time, as today I’ve let myself be sidetracked by all this ‘stuff’ coming at me, you little devil you. Meanwhile, how about yours? A wish for “creativity, inspiration, longing” drew you to Sannyas? Were such yearnings met, fulfilled? If so, by what? If not, why? The guru/disciple model?! And btw, “longing” for what – do you know?

                • satyadeva says:

                  PS: I also enjoyed the Wizard of Oz youtube clip you posted the other day, brilliant stuff.

                • dominic says:

                  As for ‘enlightenment’ most teachers are promising it, even if not stated, with a ‘look at me’ approach -
                  “Yes you too, can get where I am with my patented method!”
                  So if they are promising it and not delivering, or you don’t even really believe in it, it’s a sham from both ends.
                  Instead of gurus we should start calling them ‘used car salesmen’ or ‘spin doctors.’
                  Of course it’s really the devotee’s fault who ‘must do better.’ Or as you seem to feel… ‘I am not worthy.’
                  It’s actually a perfect fit.
                  Narcissistic psychopath meets wounded child. Tailor made. Suits you sir! (the fast show) Haha!

                • satyadeva says:

                  FAR too cynical again, Dominic. As for your gratuitous label, “narcissistic psychopath”, well, re this issue you do come across as a very ‘disappointed’, angry man, but perhaps you expected too much?

                  But did you actually ever remain with a teacher who, in your eyes, deserved or in hindsight deserves such a label? If not, why apply it to those outside your experience? I’ve certainly never spent time with any teacher who qualified for that description, so your clever-dick final line is unfortunately just redundant. Sorry about that.

                  And who, btw, suggested ‘enlightenment’ was anything but a long road, at least for the vast majority? Anyone who leads their people to believe that has to be a charlatan, or a fool, or both.

                  As I said before, you’re in danger of becoming just as dogmatic as the people you enjoy undermining, which so often tends to happen when one becomes fixated on an idea, a viewpoint, a ‘position’, with judgment being led by the rope of an emotionalised attachment to that very position.

                  In those terms, I suggest that you’re not nearly as ‘free’ as you might like to think.

                  Again, I ask, “creativity, inspiration, longing” – what happened? And “longing” for what?

                  Any other gratitude apart from the rather meagre stuff you’ve so far revealed?

                • dominic says:

                  It’s not a gratuitous label.
                  0.5-1% of population are labelled as narcissists. Do the math.
                  It’s amazing there aren’t more ‘Masters’, ‘Avatars’ and ‘Messiahs’ running around on every street corner!
                  I would certainly like to knock them off their pedestals and have them be more accountable.
                  Moral outrage is a proper and healthy form of anger.
                  I once saw a guy tear into Jean deruiter at one of his meetings after the scandal broke, and how he was going to burn all his tapes.
                  That took balls! Respect!
                  Deruiter of course, the weasel, just did his zombie stare, which I have to admit is better than listening to him talk!
                  You’re sounding like a broken record so there’s not much more to add.
                  It’s not a longing for “what.”
                  Here are some lyrics from a song ‘Elysium’, I’ve been listening to, slightly adapted, that come to mind…

                  “They say there’s a place for those who are good,
                  With it’s pearly gates swinging wide open.
                  The rest of us here are just knocking on wood
                  Quietly, piously hoping.
                  I could wonder if all of it would lead me through.
                  I could show you the arrows and circles I drew.
                  I didn’t have a map, it’s the best I could do,
                  On the fly and on the run.
                  To dreams that were tethered like kites to the ground,
                  To the bridges I burned, to then turning around.
                  It was here in the heart I was finally found,
                  And the last battle won for Elysium.”

                • satyadeva says:

                  Longing for love then, Dominic – do I read you right?

                  So then it hasn’t happened, or what?

                  Meanwhile, I suppose, at least there’s SN if one ‘requires’ a bit of attention….

                • satyadeva says:

                  Did it really take such guts, I wonder? People are capable of so many things when in the grip pf strong emotions. And it doesn’t necessarily imply they’re right either.

                  Btw, what was the big “scandal” around John de Ruiter? Having multiple partners outside his marriage, or what?

                  Sexual hypocrisy, a chance to really get into judgment and condemnation, is so easy to get into, it’s almost a reflex response. Not for you, Dominic, but of course!

                • dominic says:

                  Funny how personal the impersonal gets or how brutal the ‘spiritual’ life can be.
                  I’m curious which teacher gave you this powerful transmission of love, light and sweetness.
                  It’s underwhelming!

                • satyadeva says:

                  These last two posts are just pathetically childish, Dominic, especially so from the man who has recently studiously avoided several leading questions (eg 1.45pm, 3.13pm, 5.30pm yesterday). Perhaps par for the course for the one who suggested Osho would have been well advised to take part in Poona groups! Or was that supposed to be devastatingly witty?

                  One wonders why you rarely bother with such questions and I can only speculate you think you might have ‘something to lose’. Your ‘image’ here, perhaps?

                  Whatever, spouting such gratuitous garbage hardly does you or your case any favours.

                • dominic says:

                  Civil debate seems beyond your repetitive rants SD. Whoever you attack it’s the same worn-out witless weaponry.
                  I might as well be Shantam, or any other target for your life-and-death need to win an argument, by fair means or foul (usually foul.) Winning is all, probably accounts for your sports interests too.

                  “Osho would have been well advised to take part in Poona groups! Or was that supposed to be devastatingly witty?”
                  Duh… Somebody with his list of issues, including drug abuse, might obviously have benefited, and he might still be here today!
                  Now get back to your guru slobbering.
                  It obviously fill you with so much love and light!

                • satyadeva says:

                  “Civil debate”, eh? Well, you coulda fooled me, sunshine! ‘Pot and kettle’ time is here again! Finding a way to withdraw without the trouble of answering leading questions? Call that “civilised debate”?!

                  Are you really as stupidly obtuse regarding your outpourings as you appear here? I hardly think so, but there again, perhaps to an extent you are, bearing in mind that anyone taking a rigid position on almost any issue tends to be in danger of becoming emotionally attached to it, thereby, almost by definition, relinquishing a degree or much more of intelligence in the process.

                  As well as taking on a certain ‘authoritarian’ attitude regarding the topic of debate, ironically often -and certainly in this case – the very thing under attack! Talk about becoming like your enemies…All of which tends to make the one concerned an ‘unreliable witness’, ‘researcher’, protagonist, essentially too emotionally charged to make consistent sense.

                  And yes, I’m repeating earlier points, but only because so far you’ve only responded to them by ignoring them and/or with childish prattle pretending to be humour (and that’s a mode of “civilised debate”?!! No, Dominic, it’s self-evidently not).

                  As I said, you haven’t bothered to address certain points I’ve put to you, almost certainly, I suspect, because you feel uncomfortable doing so, perhaps unable to merely shrug them off with your trademark wit (yes, you have a talent there, but often enough misused when laced with such misplaced, ‘know-it-all’ sarcasm).

                  Anyway, you may or may not like to know that I’ll be keeping my part of the ‘bargain’ by having a go at saying why I’m grateful for having come across a few true teachers. Bet you can’t wait….

                • frank says:

                  I was down sannyas news caravanserai the other day and this c**t comes up to me and says: “you c**t”
                  I says:”who are you calling c**t, c**t?”
                  “he says you f****g c**t ”
                  and I said “you f****g f*****g cunt”
                  he says “who you calling a f******g f******g c**t,you f*****g c**t?”
                  etc etc etc ……

                • satyadeva says:

                  Really? Great, I do love to see old people enjoying themselves, don’t you?

                • dominic says:

                  Yada yada yada…
                  Talk to the left ‘cos you ain’t right…
                  :roll:

                • dominic says:

                  The full version of frank’s post.
                  Warning: people who are offended by such explicit material can “f**k off you c***s”
                  http://youtu.be/jTifRi3qDkU

                • dominic says:

                  “I’ll be keeping my part of the ‘bargain’ by having a go at saying why I’m grateful for having come across a few true teachers.”
                  Don’t bother SD. It’s not the words that matter, but the quality of ‘transformation.’
                  And others can judge that for themselves.
                  People can collect all kinds of guru badges and credentials, and it don’t amount to a diddly squat hill o’ beans.
                  Fundamentally they remain the same… Lost in space.
                  Take that! You mummy meera’s boy!

                • satyadeva says:

                  You asked for my positive experience(s), what I’m grateful for – now you don’t want to know. Too much for you to take, I guess. Perhaps you imagined I’d wilt after a few thrusts of your devastating wit?

                  Never mind, no doubt you have easy access to a virtual reservoir of gratuitous, clever-dick abuse for you to dish out. You know, something you can swim in to your ‘heart’s’ delight, where you truly feel ‘at home’?!

                  So much for “creativity, inspiration, longing”, eh?! Congratulations, you, er, ‘made it’. Now lie in it (in both senses of the word).

                • dominic says:

                  Words are cheap and bigging yourself up with past glories and spiritual cred is a recipe for tedium and blather.
                  The proof is in the pudding and this one’s overcooked and stodgy!
                  Au revoir reservoir, you’re clearly out of your depth, as in 20,000 leagues under the sea in davy jones’ locker.
                  We’ll see who wins here and who has the last say on the matter!
                  First one to get a deletion loses.
                  Gentleman’s honour of course.
                  Or would you prefer pistols at dawn?

                • satyadeva says:

                  If it’s so tedious to hear others’ positives that you can only label them as “bigging yourself up” then why ask in the first place? Perhaps that’s your notion of a “civilised debate”?!

                  Or is it that you’re just stuck in past (and present) chronic cynical disillusion, so anything remotely ‘good’ is like a potential wound to your apparently rather smugly armoured psyche?

                  As it is, paradoxically enough, you’re doing a decent job of highlighting and expressing a sort of psychic archetype, what one might call the Arch Cynic. We all have that in us, to a greater or lesser degree, hidden, denied or otherwise, it’s certainly alive and well in me, I assure you. With you, however, it appears to have assumed a position of domin(ic)ance. Good way to avoid feeling any pain though, so perhaps it’s that “creativity and inspiration” working again…Not so good though, possibly, for all that apparently unfulfilled “longing”….

    • prem Martyn says:

      Parmartha,
      These things were ‘resolved’ by those in the game years ago from my experience anyway, by those who wanted to sort themselves, it and the how’s your father, out.
      The verbose written opinionated trumpet-blowing nonsense that passes for understanding, unlike the knowing that passeth all understanding, can carry on here and elsewhere for ages until we make a film of it purely for entertainment purposes, (spot the title opener already ? ) but this stuff on that webTV channel you mention bears little relevance to the cut and thrust of a living loving nutcase community, and is hosted by someone who’d be similarly humbly deferential to a furry toy in the interviewing seat … asking the same tame questions…and going ‘mmm’ and ‘I seeeeee’ at the right moments, given half a chance, so we shouldn’t load this stuff with significance unless we like going round in circles.And I really don’t watch stuff like that anyway.It’s like watching paint dry.
      I mean anyone who picked up a coffee table copy of Osho Times back in the 80′s and 90′s just cracked up at the effete rubbish being proclaimed. As for having the lid taken off all things sanctimonious I was doing that way back with Kamala when we used to piss ourselves laughing after a night of Larry Bong. Shame that friends from P.Hill et al were so ‘effing desperate to get over themselves though, that they became consequently badly strangled by that Totnes mob. Poor sods.
      After all that and more it was impossible to kow tow to anything but a strong Gale force wind, which was more fun anyway than all those crap nights spent gavel nazing, in agonized self wrestling under a Veeresh or a Larry Bong or …. But if you didn’t do it similarly you never paid the ferry man. That’s the paradox. It was crap, but that was the game to evolve out of.
      Not to keep harking on about , or worse , if you never paid that bloke to get your oar in and wonder what you missed. And most noticeably further, Osho was one thing, and most (read all ) of his gooney reps were another. As similar as the proverbial chalk and cheese. Figure that one out…its too late.. it won’t help even if you do….

      This here is all revision work on SN for an exam that will never happen again. As for the sailing off into the sunset bit….. there’s plenty out there albeit in other forms.

      We just keep shaking timbers, being outrageous and play at being .. the rest of the Hogwashmonay of insightful revelations won’t last the New Years promises to seek and find real life, anymore than a year’s gym subscription will turn us into interesting people who can hold a worthwhile conversation.Writing here is not that which it seeks. Its fun though, and thats all I’m allowed to sanitizely do mostly…if yu know what i mean, dearest.

      Ps this , my windbagging, is complete in itself. !
      And as we have known each other many moons ago, I thus write. If I didn’t know of you personally it would be like writing to uncle Tom Cobbley….pretty pointless and impersonal.
      Cheers for keeping the mains’l up, and look after yourself for the coming year and on.
      Toodle pip,
      m

      • satyadeva says:

        Each to their own of course and no teacher/guru is for everyone, yet reading of how poor Kamala used to join you in ‘pissing herself laughing’ at Barry Long – AFTER his meetings, behind his back, but of course, like truly courageous, er, ‘seekers’ – I couldn’t help recall that such a faculty of discrimination, together with a keen sense of the absurd, didn’t exactly help her overcome an addiction to booze that ended in her tragically premature death.

        So perhaps she wasn’t an ideal reference point or ‘assessor’ (for want of a better word).

        (Btw, Martyn, if you can be bothered, try reading BL’s autobiography, ‘My Life of Love and Truth’, which might possibly help to get your head straighter about him).

        • prem Martyn says:

          when did Kamala (lastly of Bristol) die…. ? You mean Paragits sister ?
          Bugger off SD, I’m not bothered about the interpretive comment of yours you weren’t there between me an k so u have no idea what i’m talking about ..and its just interpretation of what i’m chatting to big P about…. but she died when ? sheeet ..
          stop being so bloody up your own inflated tits about anyone elses life…which you picture in your own way…For fucks sake get your priorities right.

          • satyadeva says:

            Yes, Martyn, Kamala passed away some years ago, quite a while ago, in fact. Best to ask someone who was in touch with her, as I only heard years later and I barely knew her really.

            As for your response, well, if you don’t want others to risk misinterpreting your posts then leave out the ‘risky’ details. Or, make them a whole lot clearer.

            And if you come on a forum then don’t you expect your stuff to be read by many others, not just one person who you’re aiming at? Probably best to make it absolutely clear it’s for that specific person.

            But, correct me if I’m wrong, it’s a pretty obvious conclusion that a main motive for writing that was to put down BL – and that you don’t take kindly to being ‘called’ on it (perhaps especially for my point about not ‘fronting up’ to him if you thought he was worthy of challenging?).

            As for your last two lines. well, it’s simply ‘pot ‘n’ kettle’ time, as far as I can see….

            • satyadeva says:

              Yes, the Kamala of Parly Hill and Bristol, Parageet’s sister. That makes two tragic deaths from that house, the first being Clive Eagle-Lippiat, mown down by a motor-bike on the Heath after dark, as you surely know?

              (But Parmartha would know far more than me, he used to live there).

              • prem Martyn says:

                SD… I’m not about to make sense out of something so bonkers as an online forum about interpretations of meaning .. if you loved Bazza , hooray…and please do evaluate syntactically and with ethical incision and (re)-interpret anything and everything either said meant or unspoken in a visible chat with P..feel free, i’m really not that kind of material for you…but fire away.. i’m not invested in this.. which may come as a surprise to you…. I can even give you insults and praises for any named characters from the whole history of seeking for two million years which could run longer than the six hour version of Cleopatra, if you have a couple of weekends spare…

                it won’t change a thing any which way or lead to an upsurge in internet traffic, unless you or I choose to continue writing miniscule bollox ad nauseam….
                As far as Kamala goes enough said already. It was definitely strange to get that news here online as no-one i knew had seen her for years. And thats all I will say about her online here to you or anyone else. At least my comment gave rise to something I didn’t know ( K’s passing ) and far more significant to me than …..the I that is we…that is I, that is…
                ( and hopefully that really should be enough one upmanship for a whole evening of blagging.)
                ttfn and thanks to Kamala for all the fun and love.
                Goodnight.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Fine, Martyn, although I’ve no idea what you mean by “…..the I that is we…that is I, that is…” Perhaps a misquote from ‘I Am the Walrus’?!

                  Still, withdrawing from a discussion when perhaps in a bit of a tight corner by arguing it’s all a load of rubbish anyway and not worth the candle, having previously made a bit of a ‘song and dance’ about the matter in question – well, that’s an old one, isn’t it? Can still appear convincing enough though, esp when dressed up by the requisite amount of ‘hot air’….

        • prem Martyn says:

          Not interested at all.
          Is that OK or should I apologise first.

    • satyadeva says:

      That’s the sort of thing I was getting at when I suggested other, more ‘personal’ issues might also be behind Dominic’s extremely negative conclusions. Such vehemence would appear to stem from emotional hurt – thwarted expectations perhaps? – maybe at least as much as from a disinterested enquiry into the (lack of) integrity of spiritual teachers. But that only Dominic would know of course.

      (PS: Dominic, I haven’t forgotten about the other points you/I raised. Not a lot of time recently due to being away on holiday and having other priorities. Will get to that soon, hopefully by tomorrow).

    • Lokesh says:

      Good post, Parmartha. You fail to mention the blind leading the blind. I’ve met and encountered a number of spiritul teachers who honestly believe what they are doing is the right thing and yet they don’t really knowwhat they are doing. We have one or two examples of such misguided people regularly posting here on SN. For example, firmly believing their interpertations of Osho’s life are accurate, when in planet Earth reality there could be nothing further from the truth.

      I suppose some might view me in such a light. Thing is, my ideas are constantly changing and hopefuly evolving. I am not a fanatic. One sure sign of the fanatic is their lack of flexibility and their utter commitment to never admitting there might exist major flaws in their world view.

    • dominic says:

      Parmartha. It’s ironic how we see what we want to see.
      Conscious tv is a service ( I agree btw)
      But exposing fraud by pulling back the curtain of Oz is deemed ‘negative’.
      Whereas I consider such discussions as a service too.
      Exposing the vast amount of sham and turpitude has value.
      Although many people simply don’t want to hear, preferring the three monkeys (hear no evil) approach to keep their fantasies and idealizations going, because it’s too shattering to do otherwise.
      Your other point is correct, the extent of the corruption, delusional or intentional, reflects the flawed nature of the relationship and dynamic.
      Humanity barely knows how to live outside a paternalistic authoritarian structure, and this is mirrored in the guru, especially eastern, set-up. It’s frankly all they know and history is just repeating itself. We have been taught in families, in school, in society to distrust ourselves and put faith and wisdom in others.
      It is not that one can’t learn from others, but when they are raised up as gods or fetishized and idealized, like mother meera or amma are.
      I say phooey! You are buying into theatre, powerplay and people’s despair and wishful thinking. But everyone’s free to pursue what they like in freedom land.
      Interestingly there’s NO forum for conscious tv which doesn’t make for much critical debate.
      I daresay having a guru, even a crap one, may be beneficial at certain points. They may provide a kind of ‘holding’ that people are unable to give themselves, just don’t be a slave (implicit in the word ‘Master’) or be a slave and learn from it!

      • satyadeva says:

        In your last three paragraphs, Dominic, again you’re assuming what you’re saying is true for all. Far too sweeping a claim, no shades of grey – and, while damning with faint praise, basically arrogantly dismissive of any true value of the teachers concerned. To which I echo your “phooey!”, sir!

        My sense is that you need to separate what’s obviously right for you from any idea that what you’re seeing is ‘the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth’. If only because I and others I know do not fit your model. You’re seeing perhaps a partial truth, then seizing upon it and bigging it up to fit what happens to suit you and your particular present needs.

        • dominic says:

          It’s a mexican stand-off, as they say.
          I’m just boosting lokesh’s thread post count as a small belated xmas present.
          Not wishing to appear ungrateful, I do have some teachers to recommend however…
          Ariel Wankar
          Milo Ezteem
          Uri Lee Mahd
          Issa Nutter
          Om Nishiant
          Naomi Noyu
          Sid E. Powers
          Hari Ompits (teaching the Darth Vedas and the Baghame Gita)
          U Bin Had
          Yeshe Didit
          Hugo Tahell
          Can you think of any to add?

          • satyadeva says:

            Haha indeed!

            I’ve heard these three ‘have something special’…

            Two from, I think, Thailand:
            Sho Mi Th’Muni
            And his former chief disciple, now breaking away on his own, recommended for those unable to cope with his master’s financially uncompromising approach :
            Dunn Mi Muni

            Then one from England:

            Self Will (specialises in, er, ‘dialectics’, in apparent contradictions)

  77. Fresch says:

    Well madhu, (british) men do not like feelings and even less emotions..so sanyas news is never going to let go of the past and start the new year?

    • frank says:

      absolutely right,
      I started the new year with a cold shower,and got my manservant,alfred, to administer me a good thrashing.
      its the damnedest thing,dont you know, that whilst my butler godfrey was shaving me,i looked in the mirror and noticed that all those years of jumping up and down dancing screaming shouting and shagging etc seemed to have loosened my stiff upper lip a little, so my new years resolution is to go to the cosmetic surgeon to have my stiff upper lip jolly well stiffened back up a bit.
      well,my dear fleschie,happy new year,or whatever it is that you foreigners say over there in bongo-bongo land.

  78. Fresch says:

    Parmartha, I am also not so interested in these kinds of stories because most of what I hear is so lame compared with sanyas experiences (I do not want to discriminate, but…)
    I actually love cultural variety among sanyasins. I just saw from how many countries people are reading even this plapla. I like reading your posts because I know all of you have gone at least through..eh hell in this spiritual jungle dongle. Happy New Year. I am expecting new, feeling and conscious stories..

    • Lokesh says:

      Fresch the other day I addressed the following to you.
      Fresch you say, ‘ I remember reading some of the Buddha’s “Real life” and many things and events are very similar to Osho’s life.’
      If that is the case and seeing how there are many similarities between Osho and Buddha it should be no trouble at all to list a few of them. That is, when you return from walking the dog.
      You failed to respond, unless ignoring my enquiry is your way of responding. My point is why post your comment if not being commited to responding to follow ups and enquiries. Is Shantam someone you wish to emulate on this level? Or perhaps you simply missed my comment. The ball is in your court.

  79. Arpana says:

    ‘I actually love cultural variety among sanyassins.’

    Plurality.

    Well said Fresch.

  80. shantam prem says:

    “I actually love cultural variety among sanyasins.”
    Once it was the USP before the North Korea virus creped in.
    People gathered in North Korea´s main square and Osho Pune´s Plaza are radiating a similar aura, I mean aura without any colour!

    I know also for colour blinds, even black and white is a matter of gratitude, it is better than to be blind.

  81. Anand Newman says:

    62 from India among many other nationals short listed for one way trip to Mars, the project organized by a Scandinavian no-profit company.

    I am sure 62,000 people will be ready from India alone, if anyone organizes a commune experiment on the earth itself. Living without the barriers of nationality, race, color, marriage, religion, status, wealth, language, politics, any xyzisms etc.

    Though I don’t oppose, I see the man’s greed behind this Mars one project. Several experiments can be done with a fraction of cost on the earth itself.

  82. shantam prem says:

    Anand oldman,
    why it is so, people who have got degree of Wisdom from Osho school, always find hair in other people´s burger?
    For example, you see man´s greed behind this Mars one project?
    what is wrong with it?
    If people are greedy and find creative ways to live it, why it pisses so called none greedy, non ambitious types?
    In India, a new kind of politics, politics against corruption and political nepotism has emerged after long long time. Osho disciples are the ones who react with maximum cynicism. One of my friend wrote, ” Population explosion is the burning issue and they don´t take it?”
    I mean, why the fuck should take other people´s issues. If as an Osho freak, one thinks it is an issue worth standing for, then put your ass on the burner!

    • Anand Newman says:

      You are putting me in a certain personality type and accusing me of too many things ( which is not me). Yes, you may be right about your Osho freak friends, my suggestion is do not spend much time talking to them!!.

      I said I do not oppose the Marse project even if it is based on greed. And the important point that you could have spent time in responding was about the experiments that we can do on the earth itself.

      • Anand Newman says:

        I like this Mother earth song from Veeresh


        The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

  83. Anand Teertha says:

    I asked a Master named Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev about Osho and the fiasco that he has left behind. His simple answer was “leave the dead to the dead….it was never about Osho, it is about you….”. Oh what a relief that has brought me.

    • dominic says:

      What’s wrong with you people?
      He’s not a ‘master’ just another con-man, possibly even a murderer (with rumours that he killed his wife). Just google around.
      (And I’m NOT saying everything you read on the web is true. Make up your own mind!)
      How nice he told you something to you could have figured out for yourself. Oh joy, thanks daddy!

      • Anand Newman says:

        Dom, As far as I know his wife is still alive and I don’t think he is a con-man. End of the day, its (spiritual) business and he is good at doing it…better than many other gurus today.

        • dominic says:

          On that point, as far as I know…
          “Coimbatore, Oct, 11: Close on the heels of scandals relating to fake godmen getting exposed, yet another ashram from Coimbatore is in the limelight with Jaggi Vasudev aliash Jagadeesh of Isha Yoga ashram at Poondi near Coimbatore, being charged with the murder of his wife Viji alias Vijayakumari.
          According to police, T. S. Ganganna of Bangalore (father of Viji) had preferred a complaint with the Bangalore Police suspecting foul play in the death of his daughter Viji.
          According to him , Jaggi Vasudev could have caused the death of Viji to facilitate his illicit relationship with yet another inmate of the ashram. Based on the complaint of Ganganna to the Bangalore City Police on Aug 12, a case was registered.
          The Coimbatore Rural Police have registered a case against Jaggi Vasudev under Section 302 of IPC (murder) and IPC 201 (suppression of evidence).”

          • anand teertha says:

            Have you ever met the guy? Common man be a little more intelligent. The internet aint the reality nor is the media or the courts. You still don’t get it do you? It’s not about someone else it is about you? Meditate upon it and maybe you will loose some of that hatred and unnecessary blabber.

      • satyadeva says:

        That sounds rather gratuitous, Dominic, adding some innuendo to beef up your case. How do you know he’s a con-man, btw? Have you met him?

        In fact, I know someone who has, who took him as his guest to an Arsenal match at The Emirates a year or two ago. I was there too that day and saw the guy in the distance, red robes flowing as he resumed his seat after the free half-time refreshments in his somewhat swanky part of the stadium. I recall he was promoting some ‘method’ at the time which my friend was into for a while, before ditching both method and teacher. And that’s all I know and care.

        • dominic says:

          “How do you know he’s a con-man, btw?”
          What can I say? It takes one to know one?
          Just what I’ve read, and I don’t care enough to pursue it really.

          • satyadeva says:

            In other words, you don’t know, you just think you do, because you want it to be so, it fits your agenda? You’re getting as bad as Ekantam/Drage/Swami R & co!

            Not that I care about the guy, but I don’t necessarily trust your way of reaching judgment, I think you’re not a completely reliable ‘researcher’. In a word, too much ‘self’.

            • dominic says:

              “You’re getting as bad as Ekantam/Drage/Swami R & co!”
              How low can you go?!?
              But I see you’re energised and on the attack!
              Don’t all those guru talks just send you to sleep?
              Civil dialectical debate is such a lost art form, don’t you think?

        • frank says:

          murdered his wife,then went to watch arsenal?
          not quite sure which is worse.
          and what method was he promoting?
          4-3-3 or 4-4-2?

          • dominic says:

            I think it was strangulation.
            Well who hasn’t felt like that sometimes?
            At least deserves a yellow card!

          • satyadeva says:

            Now that dates you, frank. He wanted the lads to play 4-2-3-1, but Wenger said that’s what the ream were already doing and never spoke to him again, apparently, except to continually write about the guy, in the most derogatory terms, in every single match programme. But that’s Arsene for you, straight from the ‘Dominic’ school of football management!

            PS:
            We are top o’ the league
            We are top o’ the league!

            • frank says:

              quite right.
              I haven’t been to a football match since 1968.
              I may have mentioned it before,but when i was a lad,i asked my art teacher mr wise: “what team do you support,sir?
              he answered: “they don’t support me, so I don’t support them”
              I guess that’s the bottom line whether its football teams or enlightenment teachers

              • dominic says:

                One in the back of the net frank!
                Applause from the gallery!
                Following gurus AND football players, that’s a step too far.
                Get thee to a Priory treatment clinic SD, asap!

                • satyadeva says:

                  Haha, hilarious indeed!

                  PS: Today’s 90 minutes is up, no extra time either.I’m moving on to ‘higher things’, you know, premier league stuff.

                  Enjoy scratching around the lower divisions, you might get in a successful tackle or two – one day….

                  Only a larf innit, have a good night, Dominic.

                • dominic says:

                  ‘Higher things’ eh…
                  Must be time to listen to bazzer’s ‘making love’ tape, and a canoodle with a mother meera photo…

                  It’s called cutting your losses SD.
                  But hey, whatever gets you through the long dark tea-time of the soul…
                  Confucius he say “name go in box” and chopper socrates scores, I’m afraid.
                  http://youtu.be/ur5fGSBsfq8

  84. shantam prem says:

    Leave the dead to the dead about the person who is never born never died! Lols
    It is the biggest ego fulfilment of the masters when they bring to the size their competitors. World is really a cut throat business.
    Anand Teertha, who so ever you are. Now take the lead further and drop that Osho sannyas name too and take your relief to its further journey.

    • anand teertha says:

      Truth hurts, I know.

      • anand teertha says:

        It seems you still dont get it do you. Its not about someone else it is about you. Got it? No? Meditate upon it and maybe like dominic you might loose some of that hatred and unnecessary blabber. Did that hurt enough?

  85. prem Martyn says:

    I’m currently on a spiritual fast , and will only be consuming worn out ideas which I have found whilst rummaging around in other people’s bins for rubbish and tidbits. Please do not offend me by offering anything way past its sell by date, or wrapping old stuff up in new packaging.
    If a fight breaks out between the mendicants in my area please call the spiritual police who will help out. If you find anyone in your area who looks or is acting suspiciously, as if they are suffering from a bad dose of Insights please report them to an online blog where nothing they say will be taken down in evidence for further examination.
    Winter is a time for many old lonely people who need severe intention , please help them by offering any spare meanings this winter.

    Please tear off the 72 page reply coupon below with anything that you think you don’t need anymore, including the past , the future, and of course any unwanted presence.

  86. Bodh Ekantam says:

    (MOD: THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED TO INCLUDE ONLY ONE DISCOURSE, AS PER SN POLICY).

    In these few beautiful talks, Osho shares his understanding that

    Till he was alive, walking and talking with his disciples,
    his Pune ashram was his alive Commune (Sangha),
    his alive commune (Sangha) was for Buddha (him) and truth,
    his alive commune (Sangha) was beneficial for disciples.

    But the day he left his body, his Pune ashram turned into his organisation (Sangathan).
    His Organisation shall be the dead body of his alive commune.
    His Organisation shall now be against new Buddhas.
    His Organisation shall now be against him too, if comes back.
    His Organisation shall be for the false religion in his name.
    His Organisation shall stand for the dead, for the past.
    His Organisation shall stand against the new, against the present.
    His true religion becomes false in the hands of His Organisation.
    His Organisation is a curse for his disciples.

    His Organisation will support only those scholars, priests, popes,
    who have vested interest in exploiting others
    in the name of his Religion.

    His Organisation is in fact false coin with his name,
    his Organisation is afraid of his real coins,
    his real coins are his real disciples flowered into new Buddhas,
    so his Organisation is going to ban his real disciples the new Buddhas.

    Osho gives a message not to get trapped by his organisation,
    Instead search for an alive master or alive mystic,
    and to get drowned in the alive commune around him!

    ***********************************************************************

    Third Question
    Bhagwan, In general you criticize crowd (Bheer) as such.
    But in support of commune (sangha) of Bhagwan Buddha,
    you have referred to Gudjieff and you stress the importance of power of group (Samuha).
    Kindly make us understand the difference between powers of commune (shangha), Group (Samuha) and Crowd (Bheer)!

    Even though you may not see the difference, but there is a huge difference from inside.

    The meaning of Commune (sangha) is – A crowd (bheer) at the centre of which there is an alive awakened person!
    Without a Buddha, Commune (sangha) can not be there.
    Commune (Sangha) does not exist because of Commune itself,
    Commune exists because of a Buddha.
    Try to understand the meaning of this word Commune (Sangha) –

    Many earthen lamps without a flame (bujhe diye) are there,
    and in their centre, one earthen lamp is burning bright (jalta diya).
    These many earthen lamps without a flame are slowly slowly moving closer to the burning earthen lamp.
    They have come to the burning lamp for this purpose only that they too wish to start burning, this very desire (abhipsa) has brought them closer.
    These earthen lamps without flame, are not connected with each other,
    they have no relation with their neighbour earthen lamp without flame,
    all these lamps are looking at that one burning earthen lamp,
    all these lamps are related with that one burning earthen lamp.

    I have so many sannyasins.
    They do not have any relation with each other.
    If they are sitting near each other, then it is for this very reason – there is no other reason.
    You are sitting here, people from so many countries are sitting here;
    somebody who is sitting near you is from England, somebody is from Iran,
    somebody is from Africa, somebody is from Japan, somebody is from America,
    somebody is from Sweden, somebody is from Switzerland, somebody is from Italy,
    but neither you have any relation with the man sitting in your neighbourhood,
    nor you have any relation with the woman sitting beside you.
    You relationship is with me,
    their relationship too is with me.
    Gaze of both of you is fixed on me.
    Although all of you are sitting together, but there is no direct relationship amongst yourselves.

    Commune (sangha) means – where there is a burning earthen lamp,
    and gaze of all non burning earthen lamps are fixed on the burning earthen lamp;
    they are all shifting towards the centre, slowly slowly, but with clear and assured steps.
    Inch by inch, but they are moving.
    Drop by drop, but they are waking up.
    And in the very moment, when the cotton wicks of burning earthen lamp and non burning earthen lamp come too close, that day, a jump takes place.
    Flame of the burning lamp jumps onto the non burning earthen lamp.
    One flame leading to another flame.
    Flame of the burning earthen lamp does not diminish even a little bit,
    the non burning earthen lamp gets a flame.
    The non burning earthen lamp gets a new flame,
    but there is no decrease in the flame of burning earthen lamp.
    This is communion (satsanga).
    The one who gives does not lose anything,
    and the one who receives, what to say of him, how profound what he gets.

    Upanishad’s say if you take out all/complete (Purna) from all/complete, even then all/complete is left behind.
    This happens daily in Communion (Satsanga).
    The demonstration of this unprecedented statement of Ishavasya Upanishad happens daily in Communion (satsanga).
    The meaning of communion (satsanga) is – somebody has become all/complete, If you take out all/complete from him, even then he remains all/complete just as before.
    He does not feel any deficiency.
    You were deficient and become all/complete.
    You were empty and become filled, your vessel get filled to the brim, rather start spilling over.
    And the spilling over is not ordinary, the spilling over is such that if somebody takes all/complete from you, even then you do not become empty.

    The meaning of Commune (Sangha) is – at the centre, there must be an awakened person, must be a Buddha, must be a Jina, must be someone who has won himself and who has awakened in himself, Godliness must be at the centre; then around such person, those persons who are not aflame, those who are still sleepy, such sleeping people!
    Agreed that these people are sleeping, but in their lives a dream of awakening has arisen.
    They are no awakened – true, but a dream is born to get awakened, they have started moving towards awakening, they have started groping.
    They are groping in dark, right now their groping has not much of a orderliness /systematicness, but they have started getting inkling.

    Have you noticed sometimes in morning, sleep is not gone yet, you have not even waken up, such state happens sometimes; a vague type of sleep is there now and a vague waking up has also come up – milkman is standing at the door with milk, you appear to be able to listen to his voice, wife is preparing tea, the sound of cooking utensils is also heard from kitchen, children are preparing for going to school, the fighting of children, their noise is also heard, all this is heard, and you have not waken up yet, you are not sleeping either, this state is in between, this has been called Tandra in yoga – the state which is in between sleep and wakefulness.

    The meaning of commune is – those persons who are deeply asleep in pitch dark night they have never gone to Buddhas; Those who have awakened, they do not need to come to Buddha…The one who has awakened, who himself has become a Buddha, why should he come, for what purpose, there is no purpose.
    The one who is deeply asleep, he has no awareness, how can he come!
    He passes by a Buddha and he does not get any thrill.
    He passes through aura/air of Buddha but does not get touched by his aura/air.
    He is deep asleep.
    But there are persons who are in a state between these two types,
    those who have not yet awakened so as to become Buddha,
    and so asleep that they have no desire to become Buddha,
    the people filled with such in between state (Tandra),
    these non burning earthen lamps filled with desire of burning bright,
    they make a commune (sangha).

    But the radical/original base of Commune (Sangha) is an awakened person.
    If there is a Buddha in centre, only then a commune (sangha) is formed.

    The second word is – Organisation (sangathan).
    The day Buddha leaves his body, burning earthen lamp disappears, achieves to a state of Nirvana,
    but whatever that burning earthen lamp had said, what ever discipline he had given,
    whatever that awakened preacher (saashta) had said, whatever the message he had given,
    his scripture is left behind,
    and the structure which is made on the basis of his scripture is Organisation (sangathan).
    In it, the merits (khubi) of commune (sangha) is not there anymore.
    The aliveness (pran) of commune (sangha) is gone for sure.
    An organisation (sangathan) is a dead commune (sangha).
    A little sniff (bhanak) is left behind,
    some where in past it had known the sacred company (saanidhya) of An awakened person,
    sometime in past it had sat around him, walked with him,
    sometime in past his perfume had filled it’s nostrils,
    sometime in past enchanting melody of his flute we had heard,
    in our inbetween state of Tandra,
    sometime in past some one through his own being had given us the proof that God exists,
    sometimes in past, some body’s voice had tickled our hearts,
    sometimes in past, closed buds had opened up,
    sometimes in past somebody had rained over us like sun, and we too had begun to sprouting,
    memories are left now,
    revelations (shruti) are left now,
    recollections (smriti) are left now,
    scriptures are left now – awakened preacher is gone,
    scripture is left now…. Understand the relationship between awakened preacher and scripture, that very relationship is between commune (sangha) and Organisation (sangathan).

    Awakened preacher was alive. Whatever he said, he was the same too.
    Then only his voice/words (vaani) is left, collection of his work is left, his code (sanhita) is left!
    The one who used to say is gone,
    if you ask new questions, then you will not get the answers;
    now you will get answers only when you will put up old questions which have already been answered in past;
    now no new communication happens,
    now no new voice gets awakened,
    now no new wave rises,
    now no new flute is playing – only a record is left.
    Scripture means a record.
    Singer is gone, record is left.
    If you will play the record on the gramophone, then it feels like the singer – it only feels like!
    But record is a record.
    And when the alive person could not transform you, then how record is going to transform you?

    When commune becomes dead that is awakened preacher leaves his body, then organisation is born!
    Words of awakened preacher are left behind.
    For example, Sikhism has ten gurus.
    Till those ten gurus were there, the sikh religion was a commune (sangha).
    The day their last guru decided that now there would not be any guru in future,
    and Gurugranth (scripture) shall be the guru – since that day sikh religion became an organisation (sangathan).
    Till Buddha was alive, it was commune (sangha) till then.
    When Buddha left his body, all his disciples (bhikshu) got together and they all pooled together their memory of what Buddha told to whom and when,
    who heard what Buddha was telling,
    all his disciples explored their memories, and collected all that they remembered,
    three scriptures were born – tripitak.
    All the disciples pooled togetheir memories, of each and every thing Buddha had told, and whatever they had understood, their understanding was collected,
    then their organisation came into being.
    Buddha was gone, his memory was left behind.

    And thereafter comes such a time when not only the awakened preacher is not around his disciples, even the scripture also disappears, then that situation is called a Group (samuha).
    In this we the people ourselves decide together that what should be our discipline.
    How should we get up, how should be sit down, how should we make relationship with each other.

    Try to understand the difference.

    When Buddha was alive, every body was looking at Buddha, everybody was connected with Buddha, everybody’s wire/thread was connected with Buddha, even if people around Buddha were staying together, they had nothing to do with each other, still there was no commune (sangha).
    Commune (sangha) existed only with Buddha.
    The disciples were living together, because they were moving in the same direction,
    hence they got together to walk together; and no body was with them – their togetherness was just a coincidence.
    Once Buddha was gone, scripture came into being, now there will not be any relationship with Buddha any more, now the only relationship will be with Buddha’s words.
    So naturally, those people who will be able to explain words of Buddha in right manner, those people who will be able to elaborate words of Buddha in right manner – they will become important!
    Elaborators will become very important.
    And elaborators will not be single, they will be many.

    Hence, just after Buddha died, commune (sangha) of Buddha broke down into many branches.
    It surely would break down.
    Because some body did some particular elaboration, somebody else did some other elaboration.
    Now the elaborators became absolutely free,
    now Buddha was not present, he could not say something anymore that this I had not told or this I did not mean by my words.
    Till Buddha was alive, the elaborators could not have raised their heads.
    Because when Buddha himself is alive and present, who will listen to those elaborators and their version of what Buddha said!
    Hence, just when Buddha left, many big philosophers stood up, many priest stood up, different versions of elaboration sprang up, different sects came into existence; so many big differences, so many big disputes/debates; so many differences and debate/disputes arising out of words of a single person!
    And surely, whoever liked whichever version/elaboration, he chose to live with that elaborator.
    Now the relationship was no more with Buddha;
    the relationship was made with elaborators of Buddha’s words.
    Buddha himself was an awakened person, hence relationship would have been between an awakened and sleeping person, it would have benefited the sleeping person.
    Now these elaborators, they are as deeply asleep as you are deeply asleep, this relationship between one deeply asleep person and another deeply asleep, this makes an organisation (sangathan).

    Still these elaborators, whatever they elaborate, at least they elaborate words of Buddha.
    Agreed it is a distant call, a call very far from original,
    It is long ago since Buddha had given that call,
    but perhaps these elaborators had heard what Buddha had said,
    they might have even distorted Buddha’s message,
    still some message of Buddha will definitely be left in their elaborations,
    some colour of Buddha will be left in there for sure.

    Suppose you have passed through this garden,
    you have reached your house, Garden is left far behind, Trees are left far behind, Flowers are left far behind,
    still you will find that some aroma/perfume of those flowers is still there in your clothes.
    Your clothes will remind you that you had passed through the garden.
    Hence if you still retain some/little colour of Buddha – then this is Organisation (Sangathan).

    When even this little colour is lost, when elaboration of message of first generation elaborators starts taking place,
    when even those first generation elaborators leave their bodies who had seen, heard and understood alive Buddha – now those who have seen and understood these first generation elaborators, they start elaborating – now this creates a distance very far, this creates a situation which is called Group (samuha).
    Now deeply asleep blind persons starts showing the way to other blind persons.

    Try to understand in this way, Buddha had eyes, the first generation elaborators of Buddha have at least had eyeglasses, now these second generation elaborators of first generation elaborators, the do not even have eyeglasses.
    They are just like you, as blind as you.
    Perhaps they are more skilled than you in speaking,
    perhaps they are more skilled than you in logic,
    perhaps they have a better memory than you,
    perhaps they have studied more than you,
    but apart from all this they is no difference!
    Not even this little difference of having lived in blessed company of Buddha.
    When even this little difference is not there – then it is a Group (samuha).

    Thereafter, such a time comes too, when even they are not there anymore, when there is not even any systematic-ness left behind, systematic-ness itself comes to a zero, and blind persons start colliding with each others, this is named as Crowd (Bheer).

    Hence these four words have different meaning.
    Commune (sangha) and Awakened Preacher (Sashta) – is alive.
    Organisation (sangathan) and Words of Awakened Preacher – is effective.
    Group ( Samuha) – Even the words of Awakened Preacher is lost, but some systematic-ness is left behind.
    Crowd (Bheer) – Even some systematic-ness is gone; now only chaos is there.

    I am in favour of Commune (sangha).
    I am not in favour of Organisation (sangathan).
    Group (Samuha) – There is no way I can belong to it!
    Crowd (bheer) – It is not even worth mentioning!!

    Whenever, you happen to come across a living awakened person, then just drown in his commune (Sangha).
    Such opportunities come very less often on this earth – they are rare and only sometimes, do not ever miss them.
    If you miss them, they you will have a lot of repent later.
    And even repenting later is not going to make any thing happen.
    “ What is the use of repenting, when birds have already eaten up all the grains of your field.”
    Then people keep crying for centuries.

    Many times you might have wondered over in your mind –
    How fortunate if only i had lived in times of Buddha!
    How fortunate if only I had walked with Mahaveer, on his footsteps!
    How fortunate if only I had drunk to full Jesus with my own eyes!
    How fortunate if only I had listened to words of Mohammed!
    How fortunate if only I had listened to sweet flute of Krishna and danced around Krishna!
    All this is just repentance.
    You were also present in those times, definitely you were present then too, because you all are very ancient.
    You are as ancient as this existence is – You have always been living here.
    You do not even know how many Buddhas passed by your side, but you could not recognize them, you did not see them.
    And then nothing happens by repenting.
    What is gone is gone forever.
    Search now so that this very present moment is not lost too.
    Use this moment which is present before you.

    Hence Buddha says repeatedly – do not waste even a single moment in a sleepy way.
    Wake up and start searching.
    If thirst is there – then water too shall be found.
    If there is enquiry – Then Guru is definitely going to be found.
    If you search – the search is not going to be a waste.
    Any of step taken towards Godliness has never been gone waste.

    • Lokesh says:

      Osho declares, ‘Now the relationship was no more with Buddha;
      the relationship was made with elaborators of Buddha’s words.’
      Perhaps that is something for you to ponder upon Ekantum.

  87. phoenix says:

    Sannyas is
    A love affair.
    And every Beloved
    Is simply ENOUGH.
    And therefore
    All comparisons
    Are indeed fatuous.

    One day
    Sannyas transcends itself.
    Then no disciple, no master,
    Certainly no disciple
    Reminiscing about a master.

    All such reminiscent
    Sociology
    Or theology
    Or psychology
    Seems denial
    Or avoidance
    Or neglect.
    It seems
    Still carrying the canoe
    Long after one should have crossed the river.

    If you have not crossed,
    Cross now!
    If you have crossed,
    Do not indulge
    In reminiscence.
    Open your eyes.
    See now.

    • dominic says:

      Guruji, but how do I do that?

      Time for a classic…”How shall we fuck off, O lord?”
      http://youtu.be/0uMJYQ9LKGQ

    • satyadeva says:

      Some of this sounds over-portentous to me, Phoenix. Who are you to say “should have crossed the river”?

      And what “river” do you mean anyway?

      ” Cross now!”? What the hell do you mean?

      Sorry, it comes across (no pun intended!) as pseudo-spiritual gobbledygook.

  88. shantam prem says:

    Religion and Spirituality, Tree and branches, Fingers and the nails-

    In the old religious minds their books fed the idea, ” You are the direct descendants of God. Mind created the interpretation, ” others who are uninitiated are not more worthy than animals and plants.”
    Therefore to kill the others was a guilt free act by assholes of ancient times.
    In modern times, same bookish mind set has developed subtle complexes. Through the study of their paperbacks, they claim, ” We are not religious but spiritual or No religion but spirituality.”
    I really want to know from such dick heads, Can a part exists without the whole? Is real life a butcher´s shop, where different pieces are placed in different plates; religions is a cheap kind of meat for farmers and labourers and elites get premium.”
    Any way, any statement about oneself is not spiritual at all. Only and only unknown laws of life have the right to judge and modify.

  89. Fresch says:

    Lokesh, it’s about my poor communication. In addition to my English language problems, I often say or write something and at the same time I am already in my own interpretations etc kind of a head of the subject (I do get that feedback even when expressing my self in my mother language in writing and also speaking as well)..So I do not necessarily ”finish my sentence”. It’s a personality disability. I tell this because I do it all the time. I am sorry, difficult to change it.

    However, I wrote there are many similarities with osho as a historical person and Buddha as a historical person in their time as what goes with politics, rumours and just historical events. I remember reading somewhere about Buddha as a historical person. But because I cannot remember the details I asked if any of you know a good history book of Buddha? My interest here is also not just because of course my love (even as a projection) for osho but general interest in born of religion. ( I will not go to details, but I had some project where I really tried to find out about it from science point of view with Christianity).

    Dominic you do remind me of my very good friend who knows everything about these … in theory and background research. I was kind of freaked out that perhaps I am having this internet conversation here with him (with you). Well, luckily you seem to have English as your mother language (I mean for ignorant me, how would I know).

    Gurus, teachers are any way a Russian roulette; you meet a person you meet. And that person is always the right one for you… until your respond. As in love, there is no guarantee. Only possibility is to jump, even on the rocks..But you do not need to be a suicide bomber, do you? However, I would say happy-go-lucky.

    Hi chaps, I am so inspired about your posts..

    • dominic says:

      Between a rock and a crazy place…
      Sometimes you’re the bullet, sometimes you’re the target…
      Sometimes you’re the windshield, sometimes you’re the bug.
      Or maybe always the target…

    • roman says:

      Fresch,

      You asked about ‘a good history book of buddha’.

      Richard F Gombrich’s ‘What the Buddha Thought’ is a good place to start. He is a Sanskrit scholar from Oxford. He has been writing in this field for decades. I really enjoyed the read. Some of his other material like ‘How Buddhism Began – The Conditioned Genesis of the Early Teachings’ is difficult. I can’t read Sanskrit. Gombrich is president of the Pali text society.

      ‘The Life of the Buddha’ by Bhikkhu Nanamoli is acclaimed by Gombrich and is a classic text. This English man is worth checking out. He translated the Pali Canon. Well not all of it.

      To make one’s life easy Panaj Mishra’s ‘An End to suffering : The Buddha in the World’ is easy to get and is apparently, according to a Theravadan friend of mine, a good read. Mishra draws on the writers I’ve mentioned. Mishra also has good politics and he is reviewed or has written for the Guardian and London Review of Books. His book ‘Ruins of the Empire: The Revolt Against the West and the Remaking of Asia’ is a response to Western Imperialism and its devastation.

      Osho praised Mark Epstein’s ‘Thoughts without a Thinker’ which I highly recommend. He is a psychiatrist and student of the Dharma.
      He is worth checking out.

      Finally on-line religion can be useful. Universities are know doing research on it. No doubt Sannyasnews is part of some doctorate. Tricycle is an excellent Buddhist site with an online magazine to which one can subscribe. It is non-denominational and has all the update on what is happening in the Buddhist world. I’ve currently been doing some research on Japanese Imperialism and Zen.
      The site also has a blog.
      Perhaps some of this is useful. Cheers.

      • dominic says:

        For roman…
        Reading of dylan’s, early Roman kings…
        “I ain’t dead yet, my bell still rings”
        http://youtu.be/6UkZvv8Q-gI

        • roman says:

          Dominic,
          You have a sense of the comic. Perhaps humor, is more important than laughter? Laughter is often at someone’s expense.
          What strikes me about Dylan is the extraordinary range of his imagination and his references.
          The poetry works with the music but I loved John Moles reading.

    • Lokesh says:

      Cool, Fresch.

  90. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    thank you phoenix (3.januar 2014 at4.54 pm)

    know what ???
    i had been getting so exhausted to find my way in the caravanserai
    people huffing and puffing and throwing bits and bytes at each other and also at people not present at all in the just-now caravanserai
    tried to find my way out of it but it had been so crowded with all that stuff

    saw then this kind of bird
    talking

    how amazing
    how simple
    got calm again and thank you for this

    one question though-
    as far as i experience it
    a caravanserai
    a caravan
    is
    if we want it or not
    not the end of a journey

    but good to know
    always a resting point as a nomad

    for the time being

    and being grateful if you get by surprise a glas of water or vine some bread to share
    may be even music

    and then -may be -some ripples of laughter about the whole
    tohuwabohu…

    have i nice evening wherever you are

    madhu

  91. phoenix says:

    satyadeva, perhaps as it sinks in, it will make more sense.
    If the shoe fits, wear it.
    If it doesn’t, don’t curse it.
    The ‘river’ is allusive, no further explanation will help i think. Not the Thames anyway.
    As to the ‘should’… It is just an exhortation. And anyway i was not exactly talking to you, rather to Lokesh.
    Are you doing spiritual practice? That is the canoe. Then be bold. Ride it , called by the longing of your heart.

    Or if you have stopped, and not in failure and cowardice… Then accept the transcendent that must (as I see it) come. If you accept that, the past can well look irrelevant..

  92. phoenix says:

    Thanks Madhu
    You got me laughing anyway.
    You said, one more question… But there wasn’t one…?

    From
    The singing reborn bird of being
    (my sannyas and post-sannyas name combined)

  93. prem Martyn says:

    I made a cup
    of t
    e
    a

    Not a guru
    or seeker

    anywhere in sight

    I argued with the water… so she
    boiled over and made herself
    all
    hot

    and bothered
    then I

    dismissed the sugar with insouciance
    sweet but unnecessary

    the soya milk stood cold
    a
    n
    d
    unmoving in the fridge

    Tea time is always
    so fraught with these characters who wouldn’t naturally combine
    without
    my
    encouragement
    and
    pleasure.

    I reckon
    t e a
    must
    be grateful to me
    for bringing her

    together in
    a fine brew .

  94. Ashok says:

    From a Satisfied Customer to Sanyass News on the Recent Screening of the Royal Gala Hand-bagging Variety Show ( Christmas & New Year Special).

    “Quality viewing and good value for the audience, as far as I am concerned. Of special note were Dominic and Satyadeva, for their leading performances in the recently aired bonanza. And lest I forget, the supporting cast also played an important part in contributing to the overall success of the show too, didn’t they?

    A lively mix of some great no-holds debate, radical honesty and thought provoking stuff was on offer -some of the links provided were excellent too. I especially liked some of the dramatic and compelling hair-pulling acts in the show!

    Keep it up!

    Last but not least, another big thank you to the producer of the show Lokesh who started this all off, as well as Sannyas News, which screened it.

    A special thanks to Bodh Ekhantam, for providing a contrast with a cameo spot in his own version of the popular show of ‘Take Your Pick’, running on another channel at the same time.

    And now I wonder, what’s on next? I feel like watching some sweet gooey soap-opera in which the girls kiss and make up after a tiff.

    Where’s the TV guide?”

    • dominic says:

      A worthy review…
      A Soapy, steamy shower scene with girls singing “la donna e mobile” and lots of kissing and making up with gooeyiness, sounds just the ticket. I’m all in a lather just thinking about it…
      Keep it up… Oh yes
      Have I got the right channel?

  95. Fresch says:

    Good morning chaps,

    Hi Roman, Thanks a lot. I am in heaven about these. Wow! And I will do comparison with osho’s life after going trough this… which will take some time. Sounds interesting what you do on Japanese Imperialism and Zen. I heard some old sanyasis say zen is a dying tradition (even it’s such popular as a word in mainstream).

    Sanyasins often do not care about academic or scientific work on meditation. I sometimes think it must be because when you are meditating (or your are in your feelings) your cognitive side in your brain ceases. Then it’s hard to talk, even harder to write. It happens when you fall in love. That’s the reason you make same mistakes with different partners again and again (because you do not “remember” or understood what happened last time). After I read about this I have been putting effort also to bring some understanding to y own processes, even afterwards how ever reluctantly ( most of is pure mindfuck, but some of it is not)

  96. shantam prem says:

    Osho knew about the west; as much as one can know from the books.
    His western disciples knew about Indian expressions of mysticism as much as they could know from reading classics like, ” Who am I and who the fuck are you.”
    Therefore people who wanted to built world´s most eco friendly automobiles have succeeded to create battery operated toy cars, one can run on the silk carpet in the drawing room.
    Posts at this site including mine demonstrate such finest creations of Osho; the man who gave us new names!

  97. phoenix says:

    Lokesh, let’s do plain talking. I don’t understand the cough drops. Will you explain?
    In the meanwhile, this from me. Good, well-written, thoughtful, piece from you at the start, enjoyable.
    But an anecdote. Devageet told me once he had got some way down the road on his biography of Osho, when Osho told him it was pointless, so stop.
    It makes sense to me. Biography may do the master (never born, never married, never died) a disservice. Nothing of myth there, just a natural consequence of masterly work.
    For me, sannyas was always not only simple and natural and direct and ordinary but also transcendental. Transcendental practice one day dissolving itself.
    I felt your reminiscing at the personal level might obscure that, so added, by way of balance, first of all that elliptical poem (with no names, no exact people, only master and disciple, as if elements, forces, the poles of transpersonal communion)…. and now this.

    • Lokesh says:

      Cough drops?…your comment made my throat tickle.
      You say, ‘I felt your reminiscing at the personal level might obscure that.’ Oh dear!
      You say, ‘For me, sannyas was always not only simple and natural and direct and ordinary but also transcendental.’
      What? You mean like changing your name, wearing only orange clothes with a mala and a guru picture locket round your neck, jumping up and down at dawn going hoo, hoo, hoo etc felt natural to you? Were you brought up in a Buddhist monastary? What exactly did you transcend after all these natural, simple and direct activities and experiences. Now that is something I would like to hear about.

  98. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    good morning friends

    had some left overs from prem martyn s tea cup
    strolling like ALICE in in-and-out-wonderland happened to visit a very decent english club
    for man only – but female cleaners are allowed to then and there emptying trash paper bins as well as left overs in tea cups also…
    you have been (must have been successful also to peek into some of the old paper baskets of others don t you ???)

    thank you so much prem martyn for this

    and yes phoenix, dear

    thank you for reminding me that i promised a question and then did not show up with one
    the best a can respond to THAT
    is
    proclaiming i feel a QUEST myself—ongoing-
    or at least when i watch my mind and some layers connected to the buzzings which seemingly are even deeper and deeper and deeper it goes and there seems to be no end in that

    we all have given by grace it seems the capacity of speaking up
    and out
    to be on nomads virtual trade paths or in virtual caravanserais (as a place for meeting friends and fellow travelers
    is kind of child s play…AND ALSO
    IST NOT

    yes dominic
    we are ll bullets we are all targets we are all being bugged
    we are all looking for something
    and sometimes it may happen that you stumble over a mine of some far way war
    and then what
    well
    as far as i experienced ist

    then
    you have a very very uncomfortable time
    may be end up in guantanamo
    being charged for a crime you never have committed
    you never ever wanted to commit
    but then
    you re getting the torture treat anyway(in a thoroughly material way…not virtual at all)
    because civilization has not happened yet
    kind of such thongs can materialize but need not
    and the latter ist so to say the tiny tiny spot for courage

    in a way i feel as all sometimes as weavers
    bringing each and everybody a peace
    contributing for a warm quilt or somethings that warms up the soul
    it may be too romantic a comparison….
    i don t know

    also i don t know about the one or the other trixter how it was mentioned the other day
    (being busy online or trojanizising my poor equipment while i m using it and what more what more my friends
    so much left over every moment for an awareness challenge
    so much

    and thank you (was it you ?) parmatha ? to shed some of your light to the need of diversification of understanding AND response
    when we have it to do with an art of trixterism and when not and in this cases have to do withe bullying others

    and thank you for this contribution so much so
    practicing the art of accurateness an every-momont-to moment
    interhuman intertraffic intercommunication inter inter interdependant
    interdependence how i see it not to be mixed up with co-dependance
    like a sick stigma
    it is not sick to give some effort to diversificate but needed
    needed so much
    nowadays more than ever since we joined technical electronic progress

    more or less than children
    and sometimes pawing over and over misuse issues
    nobody is free of it i feel
    and so
    sometimes
    when having come to senses ans sensitivity again its so nice
    share an ” i m sorry” too
    its good not only for the addressed but also for everybody present just now

    ahhhh
    again so long writing on this saturday morning… and i can t stop just now

    nomads places
    being in nowhere lands (old song of the beetles come into my mind)
    well
    nomads places which are virtual
    are very seducive
    and have very many challenges too
    for a human being being joining some caravanserais
    its not accidental i feel that a name like this was chosen

    the nomads (the real ones) live in one or other kind of DESERTS

    and deserts
    deserts are sometimes really dangerous places
    friends are needed and fellow travelers
    oasis spaces (real ones) are needed to have a rest

    and recommendations are needed how to cope with dangers o the trail

    and

    its not a child s play there
    how in highly industrials zones
    with electric heaters and food in abundance
    and beds to sleep in
    some of the kids being on hooligan rides wherever they are able to hack in
    and eventually after that kind of nastiness
    then like to play their hooligan plays as “chase the bugged target”
    as “streetlife” too

    so besides my
    happy-go-lucky”
    also some little candle light for aspects of the (very)shady side of technical
    progress in hands of power mongers
    from the age of eight year old up to
    ohhh there s seemingly no end as far as alzheimer and other conditions don t end it

    i love to address you
    loving is not just a game

    ps
    for roman – dear friend

    i don t feel by now
    that what you mentioned as “on-line-religion”is progress in human consciousness AFFAIRS
    but i know by painful experiences as a “nomad” women in only on the paper civilized country and city
    that some of the buggers
    hackers
    trojanerexperts
    as well as then followed by real torture and “exorcist-specialists”ambiotionists
    logistics
    in terms of postmodern wars
    against so called non-believers

    so i know
    that bugging games and all kind of uncomfortable consequences
    ARE happening
    in the human soul gradings
    which opened up shops and bazars too

    so much is happening
    as well as the fact

    we don t know it all
    and cannot know it all either

    imagening
    i m in a deserts oasis

    like an ALICE in in-and-out-wonderland

    is such a beautiful dance of spirit

    thank you all
    wherever you are in the body

    and
    have a REAL
    beautiful day

    and i include myself here in good wishes

    because
    every long love letter
    like this one
    i m writing to
    you
    i m writing to me

    too

    love

    madhu

  99. Arpana says:

    What happens is that the mind gets into a double-bind. For example if a person is negative, she suffers. But by being negative, she enjoys a few things that a positive person cannot enjoy. For example a negative person will be thought to be very intelligent. A positive person will not be thought to be very intelligent because the positive person will not criticize anybody. The positive person will look shallow, and the negative person will look very deep.
    So if you become negative, you suffer-but there is some pay-off, and that is that people think you’re very critical, very intelligent, very logical, this and that-and all nonsense! You suffer inside, but you cannot lose this profit that comes out of negativity.
    All critical people suffer, but they become great leaders, they become great thinkers. They suffer, they want to get out of their suffering, but they don’t want to drop that profit comes out of being negative.
    OSHO
    THE GREAT NOTHING.
    DARSHAN DIARY.
    Monday 20 September 1977.

    • Lokesh says:

      Wasn’t Osho very critical and intelligent? Many times what he said drew logical conclusions.Oh well…back to the glass weedgie board.

    • satyadeva says:

      Well chosen, Arpana! Wonder who that might apply to here….

    • prem Martyn says:

      that is such complete rubbish, god almighty what a load of godddammmnnn crap, jeez the guy’s an idiot, whaddya say his name was ?? I know three year olds who can think better than that, blimey with thoughts like that , which are so clearly , well its obvious really the guys a fool, he hasn’t got a clue, ignorant , actually having said that I feel much better now, sort of wonderful really , which I’m sure you all agree with, obviously the guy just wants your money, a total nincompoo…..
      just a minute…

      this really isn’t convincing anyone is it…
      right, change tack….

      Hello everyone my life’s a mess ….
      I’m such a friggin idiot , oh bother, and i’m way over fifty what a tosser I am, dear dear dear dear oh well there’s nothing else for it but just to fess up… now lets see is there an online blog I can confess all… ah yes here we go.. Father Artha’s Confessional service.. that’ll do…

      • Lokesh says:

        Such vague accusations have a negative impact on sannyasin readers. I suddenly feel paranoid, anxious that I am the culprit wih no name. Where’s Detective Shantypants just when we need him? He’d soon get to the bottom (pardon the pun) of this.

  100. Bodh Ekantam says:

    Continuaton of the last comment/post ,
    Osho is telling why his own people ( Of SN type)
    will be against new Buddhas:

    Context of Sutra. Story goes here under –
    “ Bhagwan’s influence/fame was increasing day by day.
    Those who were really in love with religion, they were overjoyed. Flower petals of their heart, were opening up in the rays of light of Bhagwan. Their minds like birds were eager to fly with Bhagwan on the flight to infinity. But such people, unfortunately were very few.
    Many persons were in such a shape that presence of Bhagwan was a pain as if thorn is piercing their very being (Prana). Bhagwan’s rising influence was filling them up with poison of anger. Bhagwan’s words appeared destructive to them. It appeared to them, that this Gautam (Buddha) is hell bent on destruction of Religion.”

    ………………………………………………………………………………………….
    ………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Before entering into these stories, few things about this particular story –

    First thing, whether this event happened to Gautam Buddha or not, this has no real value.
    Because this story is such that this has been happening to all Buddhas since forever. This story is very unique. In this story, all the sickeness of human mind are hiding.

    Whenever Godliness comes into existence anywhere, then disturbance starts.
    The first reason for disturbance of this very fact that whatever traditions become rigid in the name of religion, whatever concepts or assumptions become rigid in people’s minds in the name of religion, these very assumptions are opposed to religion.
    Whenever new religion will be born, it’s real clash is never with irreligiousness – Irreligiousness has no power in it to clash with religion – The clash of religion happens with false religion, with dead religion.
    The clash of alive religion happens with dead religion.
    There is no conflict between religion and irreligiousness, conflict has always been since forever between religion and those who are travelling in the name of religion – so called religion.

    Buddhas have never been opposed by atheists, buddhas have been opposed by so called theists.
    Buddhas have not been opposed by those who do not believe in God, Buddhas have been opposed who believe in false Gods.
    Buddhas have been opposed by those, who have no direct self experience of God,
    those who insist on assumption/concepts of God.
    Buddhas have been opposed by those, who are attached in any type of exploitation in the name of religion – Scholars, Priests, Godmen.
    Buddhas are opposed by hypocrisy running in the name of religion.

    This fact deserves to be thought over deeply.

    Religion is always opposed by religion.
    Just as pebbles and stones can not oppose real coins, only false coins oppose the real coins.
    Real coins have no conflict with non-coins, conflict is with false coins only.
    False coin is afraid of real coin.
    If real coins come into market, it will be very difficult for false coins to remain in use.
    If people come to know about real coins, then who will care about false coins?
    Real coins should not become well known at any cost, otherwise the falseness of false coin too would become well known.
    Truth strikes fear in the false.
    Truth strikes fear in the pretender/actor, the one who is pretending/acting, the one who is indulging in hypocrisy/humbug (paakhand)

    Hence, whether it be Buddha, whether it be Krishna, whether it be Christ, whenever any person achieves to Godliness then this very unbelievable event happens that all temples, all mosques, all gurudwaras they stand in opposition to him.
    These temples, these mosques, these gurudwaras, however bitterly they might have been fighting with each other in past; but whenever a Buddha comes into being, they all get united to fight together with that Buddha.

    There were many sects in India when Buddha was born.
    And there was great opposition amongst those sects themselves.
    But just as Buddha arose, they all became opposed to Buddha, their enemity with each other infact declined.
    Now all those sects felt threatened by one person only.
    At no cost, truth of Buddha should be known to /understood by people, because the consequence of people understanding truth of Buddha would be that their business is gone, their business gets collapsed.
    Hence, it became a question of life and death for them, truth of Buddha getting understood.
    Their whole occupation/business was about to collapse.

    So this is story is not new.
    This story has definitely happened with Gautam Buddha,
    but this story has happened with all the Buddhas too,
    hence I declare this story as a very unique story.
    This is not just historical, this story belongs to Purana.
    This has been happening earlier also,
    this is happening today too,
    and this will go happening tomorrow too.
    Such a day of good fortune has not come till now when we have natural / spontaneous readiness to welcome truth.
    Such good fortune will come one day – even a hope of this is impossible hope (durasha).

    There are many complexities in the web too.
    For example this conflict happened with Buddha, godmen fought with him.
    But then, whatever Buddha said, listening to that (in his name) a new web of Godmen stood up.
    Now, if a Buddha is born today, then do not think the followers of Buddha are going to support him, No, they too will be as eager to fight with him.
    Followers of past Buddhas keep fighting with new Buddhas.
    Now just when a Buddha leaves his body, just when Buddha takes leave from this existence, a den of scholars and priests appropriates the words of Buddha.
    And there too, temples will be built, scriptures will be made, there also post and fame issues will stand up, there too politics will be played.
    Now this web which has come up, is going to fight their own Buddha, whenver he would dare to come for the second time.
    Whenever Buddha himself returns back, even then he will have to fight with his own devotees.
    This is very unfortunate.

    We are such ancient worshippers of false, that whenever we leave one falsity, we immediately catch hold of another falsity.
    One falsity is barely left, we have caught another falsity.
    This habit to catch hold of falsity is so rigid that if we ever leave one falsity, that very moment we catch hold of another falsity.
    Or if by accident/mistake, even truth comes into our hands, even then it turns into falsity because it has come into our hands.
    Our vessels have become so poisonous that even if somebody pours nectar into our vessels, even that turns into a poison.
    Our hands are doing miracles!
    Real coins too in our hands turn into false coins.
    Vedas were indeed false in the time of Buddha – Not that Vedas were false in itself, people had made it false – Although Buddha again gave truth , it turned into false once it went into hands of people.
    Buddha was opposed by those who believed in sages of Upanishad.
    Shankaracharya was opposed by those who believed in Buddha.
    Now if a new Buddha stands up, those who believe in Shankaracharya are ready to oppose him.

    Just make sure that you understand the mechanism of this phenomenon.

    Past opposes present, Dead opposes alive.
    Rotten opposes the new flower coming into existence.
    And those whose minds are not free from past, they can never understand Buddhas.
    Those whose minds are free from past! That is very rare! Such people can be counted on fingers, who have so much courage, that they are able to put aside their past, and get ready to welcome the new ray of Sunlight which has just come.
    Those who do not impose their beliefs, their concepts, their assumptions, their prejudices on this new ray of Sunlight.
    Those who are able to drop their prejudices in the favour of this new ray of sunlight, able to get naked, able to stand without clothes and accept this new ray of sunlight.
    Only very few such people are able to get transformed.

    So this story is not new.

    Discourse No. 100,
    Es Dhammo Sanantano (English translation of Discourse in Hindi)
    Osho

  101. shantam prem says:

    Bodh Ekantam.

    People like you have only one solution.
    Fight for the regime change in Pune.
    Let the ashram be as it was suppose to be, as one sees in the pictures and videos.
    Only one thing may not be the same, ” Swamis with long beard and Ma´s with hairy armpits.”

    But that is not much to complain about.

  102. prem Martyn says:

    Lokesh, here’s a thought….
    I still haven’t read your opening letter , and am probably quite unlikely to…..

    Along with about 70 percent of the other contributions here (its a handy trick I learnt from not seeking, not looking, and providing one’s own answers before, and not after )

    I’m currently walking around Switzerland trying to understand what I haven’t read….

    I thought it would be useful as some form of meditation however I could actually be quite wrong…..I might actually be walking up and down Switzerland.

    If you reply
    Please write loudly as I am wearing ear plugs to ward off listening to myself for the rest of the day.

    • Lokesh says:

      I find your copy and pasting Osho quotes to be a rather tedious process. What exactly are you trying to achieve by doing this, Ekantam?
      If one wishes to read Osho’s words there are countless ways to do so. Personally I rarely do. Having attended over a thousand Osho discoures I reckon I received the message. I suspect that many of the others at SN rarely do also, with a few exceptions, of course.
      I can’t remember where I read it on SN, but just the other day I came across the following…’As one can clearly see from reading people’s comments on SN, who constantly copy and paste Osho quotes, it is possible to find a quote suitable for almost every argument.’
      Are you one of them?

    • Lokesh says:

      To be honest, Martyn, I haven’t actually read the opening letter myself. I wrote it with my eyes closed. The letter was transmitted by an unearthly voice in my head that stretched out the S’s at the end of each sentence and concluded the whole thing with, ‘Enough for today.’
      Most peculiar I am sure you will agree.

  103. Fresch says:

    Madhu and other women here, I hope you understand I addressed “hello chaps” because of such dominant male energy here..I really wished there would be room, or better say interest, for other kind of energy as well. Even Kavita does not seem to bother to post now. It’s also getting difficult to follow this record long discussion. Well done SN.

    • dominic says:

      I agree with you fresch, but I don’t know what to do about it.
      Kavita can be a bit wet, though not in a good way.
      You seem to have more ‘balls’!

      • Lokesh says:

        Well, Fresch, I’m sure that most of the chaps would agree that women simply have better things to do. SN can be quite a rough place: with the likes of Shantypants posting crude innuendoes etc. Only a braveheart like yourself is cut from the right suff to withstand such a veritable battlefield of psychic energies.

    • Ashok says:

      The Righteous Brothers break out into song:
      ” There is nothing like a dame,
      Nothing in this world
      There is nothing you can name
      That is anything like a dame……!
      (SP Lyrics, Rogers)

      A Soul Sister responds with:
      ” I’m gonna wash that man rite outta Ma hair
      I’m gonna wash that man rite outta Ma hair
      I’m gonna wash that man rite outta Ma hair
      And send him on his way!”
      (SP Lyrics, Hammerstein)

      A case of ‘vine and aspirins’ in expired cough syrup medicine bottle, perhaps my dear Watson?

      • frank says:

        ashok,
        our very own righteous brothers here on SN
        seem to `have lost that lovin feeling`
        the `unchained melody` has turned into an S and M bondage session where they` re looking for the ultimate masochist hit :`going the whole way`
        ego-death or bust.
        `I leave you my suspension cuffs`

        • dominic says:

          Gentle frank wearing a gimp mask, nipple clamps, leather boots and carrying a whip cries,
          “Guys guys, you’ve had your fun, it’s my turn now! Who wants it?”

        • Ashok says:

          Beloved Frankie-pops,

          The cuffs go very nicely ta, with me ‘SPIRITUAL PRINCESS’ ‘SP’, Extra Prissie Collection Set that I’m slowly addin’ to, ie stockings from PM, and me own bit o’rope for reg’lar ‘anging of me substantial ego with!

          Oh how my heart goes out to those poor, poor girly-boys in the local alley cat-fight, ‘ rumble in da jungle’* all over agin with Sister Dominica’s fans chantin’ Bum-aye!*( kill her!), as she stings like a bee and Sister Sat’ya Deva’s singin’ Kum-ba’ya? ( Pigeon English for: ‘Come by here?…. Over my dead body, duckie!), as she floats like a butterfly!

          Well I never, a full-blown version of a “Who’s In-first?’ process and self-analysis in open-to-the-pubic view, whipping each other up into a creamy ’frenzy’, before coming to their senses in mutually satori-frying enlightenment!

          Wudja believe it?. I arsk you, wotever’s coming next? Gorra handbag ya can lend me sweet little girly-kins?

          Wishing you all the best ‘Sweet Creams’ & ’Melted Minds’, Uncle Frank.

          Your Ever-Loving Niece,

          Sister Patricia (Formerly of Kerry Gold Buttery and now an SP novice in Sanyass News nunnery)

          (MOD: SOME EDITING HERE)

  104. roman says:

    The following are some musings after reading and listening to a talk on William James. My musing are a response to the posts about different masters, teachers, gurus and Lokesh’s experiences around Osho.

    Osho has been referred to as an energy phenomena particularly by old sannyasins. In other words it was the experience that counted. It is interesting how Osho accepted the name ‘Osho’ which is connected to William James and the oceanic experience. Osho obviously thought highly of James who wrote ‘The Varieties of Religious Experience.’ James also felt it was the mystical experience that counted and he wasn’t that concerned with what triggered the experience but that you had it. For James the world is mystical and one can be spiritual and belong to a religion or spiritual and not belong. Obviously both groups have a spiritual experience in common.
    So James is not concerned with what triggered a mystical experience but that the experience opened you up to something greater than yourself where you felt a oneness with existence.
    As he says ‘Divinity lies all around us, but society remains to hidebound to accept the fact.’ (Bear with me I’m getting to the point)
    Now James also shows that the experience can be triggered off by meditation, prayer, walking in the woods where it happens unexpectedly or gardening. He would make no distinction between the synthetic and the natural. If chemicals triggered the experience it was the experience that counted. So whether it was Osho, Buddha, Christ, psilocybin, your cat which triggered the experience this was not his focus. So the trigger was less important than the fact that so many people from different walks of life experienced the mystical. Many don’t even talk about it as they may be labelled nuts without a belief system. An atheist friend of mine says his experiences are just physico-chemical so he has a scientific framework.

    Now depending on one’s culture you may frame your experience within that tradition. The experience has something to do with the Christianity, Jesus, Osho, Islam, Wicca etc. You’ve had a spiritual experience within a religious tradition whereas your neighbour has no religion but had the experience. The experience no matter how it happens is important because you are changed in a profound way and you develop an empathy with all forms of life. James also shows how the mystical experience is not that uncommon. The world is mystical.

    So one is greatful for the experience whether is was around Barry Long or whatever. James was indifferent to the cause, he wrote about mystical states that people from all walks of life experienced.
    So the point being if you have experienced the mystical that’s important not so much where. Things happened to me around Osho which triggered off altered states of consciousness and I’m grateful. I also had similar experiences when I was a kid but I didn’t understand them. This is where Osho helped me.
    Finally, I’ll end with the following lines by Whitman in James’ book.

    ‘I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contained, I stand and look at them long and long;
    They do not sweat and whine about their condition.
    They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins.
    Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things,
    No one kneels to another, not to his kind that lived thousands of years ago,
    Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth.’

    ps And Frank just in case you are tempted to respond I totally agree with you that one of the biggest mystical experiences, and the most enjoyable is sitting quietly, in the smallest room in the house totally emptying your bowels after a long bout of constipation.

    • Lokesh says:

      I returned from playing at a New Years party the other night. My three Siamese cats were waiting for me in the pre dawn light. I sat beside them in the garden and thought to myself, these guys know nothing about human creations, like Hogmanny. They wander through eternity, their only concerns being food, sex and a warm place to sleep. Yet those cats are absolutely beautiful, perfectly clean with not a bar of soap in sight. They would have breezed through an Osho darshan sniff test, yet I never saw any animals in Osho’s house.

      • roman says:

        Lokesh,

        We are also great cat lovers. In the last two years we lost two. One was in his 20′s and my partner nursed him through the night. The other one died too early and it was painful for her and us.
        People talk about different cultures and nature. Perhaps there are different natures and one culture? It is a privilege to be admitted into the culture when one has strayed. Cats can remind us of how we have strayed.

        Some folk say our notion of persons are too limited.
        Homage is paid to the North American Eagle. At the right moment the Eagle flies over the ceremony in a sign of appreciation and letting us know we have been allowed back into the culture.
        Does killing an animal separate us from the culture? They have their homes and relatives. As for so called inanimate objects, can they also become persons? Some rocks may stand out and bring us back into the world.

        I do owe a lot to cats. Take care.

    • frank says:

      roman, its true that having a good bowel movement gives you quite a high. that is all well and good. yet its possible to try to repeat the experience all the time,as some bulimic types do,then you will end up,not blissed out,but sick.

      the thing about altered states of consciousness is that, by definition,you cant stay there for ever. if you do, they are no longer “altered”.
      it is best to `kiss the joy as it flies`.
      some mind-altering substances, (and with neuroscience we know that `spiritual highs` are in fact.mostly chemically induced) might get you on your way,but what to do when it wears off….?
      you can seek to repeat the high as much as poss,but the problem with that is that you end up constantly avoiding,marginalising and ignoring the low or the `normal` in favour of `altered` state of consciousness.
      this,sadly, is literally ignor-ance.
      what you ignore will come back to haunt you, and like the bulimic ,you actually end up unbalanced.

      doing spiritual practice,meditations , satsang ,believing in the rightness of someone,etc etc can operate the same way. hanging on to and constantly exalting the high.the low will bite you on the bum.
      (that’s why all the oldtime religions kept women well out of the way.
      `evil` women have always found it easy to peg spiritual fantasists down a chakra or two or more! still do!)

      have you ever had to confront someone about their drinking or drug-taking?
      you get surprisingly similar reactions as when you criticise someones god,guru or meditation.
      and the whole `perfect avatar/master ending up with feet of clay` story that appears constantly on SN is essentially the inevitable outcome of this whole spiritual high/low dynamic.

      to someone who is hooked,any rationalisation/denial etc is brought in.
      and crazy wisdom is the best one of the lot.
      I call it:”the most sophisticated form of denial ever conceived by substance abusers”
      and it works just as well when the substance is a spiritual high.

      but having said that, I would say: get blasted.take it where you find it,trip out,dance, free your mind ,free your ass,do heavy breathing,be a shameless shaman,whack love hormones into your bloodstream like theres no tommorow, join a cult,shag your guru,kiss the marble sink the Bombay gin,cane it and more ,but when it starts caning you…
      could be time to straighten up…
      and follow the “tao”

      • satyadeva says:

        Good post, frank.

      • dominic says:

        You f*****g c**t!
        Nailed it frank… on the cross.
        Though SD must have been hallucinating since it challenges all his guru addictions.
        Or maybe you come with a halo, so that whatever you say Arpana and SD fall at your feet.

        • satyadeva says:

          Really, Dominic? Kindly explain your third line, it’s beyond me.

          Btw, for your information, I’ve had this Cook/Moore cd for years, and others, and happen to be a fan of their stuff.

          Sorry about that.

          • dominic says:

            Impressive SD!
            Who’d have thought it?
            Maybe there’s hope for you yet!
            As it appeared a sense of humour was nothing to laugh about, and that you were drier than a pointy-eared Vulcan, Mr. Spock.
            Thankyou for sharing.

            • satyadeva says:

              You mean, in your eyes, although I’m definitely and probably always will be a c**t, I might possibly not be a f*c***g c**t?

              My God, all my Christmases have come at once…

              (Ya f*c***g c**t!)

              • dominic says:

                “My God, all my Christmases have come at once”…
                Over-excitement makes you go biblical… I knew there was something of the christian fundamentalist about you.
                Time for a round of ‘Kumbaya’ with your brother-in-christ, Father Arpana and his papal bull ministry, preaching the gospel of his lord and saviour.

      • roman says:

        Frank,

        The importance of gifts. Nice to share. We try with words and imagination.
        James could perhaps be called a daoist. He was not interested in seeking an experience or focusing on the trigger.
        Here’s a small one:

        ‘A floating sandal
        is an object of fun
        for seagulls’

        • frank says:

          roman,
          I like it.
          and only the other day I was watching some seagulls dive-bombing over a couple of dogs on the beach.
          they`ve definitely got a sense of humour.

  105. dominic says:

    Enrol now for sannyasnews premier league total wipeout.
    Non-believers vs true believers.
    The Guru Liberation Organisation Worldwide (GLOW) vs
    Sannyas Patriots And Martyrs (SPAM).
    It’s gonna be brutal.
    More punch-ups and testyosterone than a good glaswegian night out, and the bookies are open for bets.

    • dominic says:

      Words! Words! Words!
      Seems were in need of a multiplayer online video game where we can kick the shit out of each other.
      How about..
      Call Of Duty 4: Sannyas Warfare,
      Acharya Assassin’s Creed,
      Osho Halo,
      Mala Of Honour,
      White Robe Sniper Elite V2,
      Counterstrike: Osho International Offensive,
      Any others?

  106. phoenix says:

    Lokesh
    What did I transcend?
    The same thing as the dewdrop transcends as it falls into the ocean.
    And consider this:
    Sometimes we are cynical, not because the other is deluded, but because we ourselves are lacking a certain thing. Or have forgotten it.

    • Lokesh says:

      The dewdrop metaphor is an old one, which most of us have heard. Even though it could be classed as a spiritual cliche I don’t really see you as living up to your request for plain talking. Then again, perhaps you have suddenly transcended it. My point being that I asked you a simple, natural and direct question and you are not capable of delivering likewise. Instead you deliver a flakey metaphor that actually sounds like you think you are enlightened or some such shite.

  107. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    aaahhhh
    are you kidding, dominic…
    no, you are not kidding , i suppose….

    may this glas of vine (or whatsoever) leave me out
    by processing – being passed over
    being spilt
    being thrown against walls or/and others just passing by

    mercy
    mercy
    mercy

    madhu s (one of the possible) respondings

    and hello
    for any fresh beginnings possible—-

    and thank you dominic, anyway
    for the sheer (faint)possibility to take a try to respond

    madhu, yours sincerely….

    • dominic says:

      Madear Madhu, not sure what you’re referencing, think of your poor reader. It’s hard enough understanding you as it is, though the Dadaist collective would no doubt be proud. By the way, have you heard of paragraphs, sentences and such? I start to realise there is much good sense, out of courtesy, to be found there, even though I do enjoy a bit of ‘finnegan’s wake’ and e. e. cummings every now and again.
      Hope springs…

  108. Fresch says:

    Dominic, you really get some attention, best to enjoy it, success doesn’t last long.

    Lokesh, how come I smell some irony? You seem to be one dancing with the wolves, almost as if whispering to their ears.

    Yes, I am really looking forward to this year Fresh beginning! This year, this moment. New energetic phenomenon and ability to enjoy the valleys for all of us.

    • dominic says:

      “There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about.” – Oscar Wilde
      Might have applied to Osho as well.
      Shantam’s getting a well deserved holiday at the moment, while I draw fire from SD’s rusty weaponry.
      Is that not showing my softer feminine side?
      Let’s try and top the league with the postage count here!
      Some more compassionate mud slinging should do it.
      Let’s see… SD you’re a big guru’s blouse!

    • Lokesh says:

      Fresch enquires, ‘how come I smell some irony?’
      Simple. I’m ironing.

  109. shantam prem says:

    what is synchronicity?
    When two drug addicts feel familiarity before the railway station of any western metro city.
    In the context of sannyasnews, when two people agree on something, like soul brothers Lokesh and Satya Deva.
    In the context of international politics best example of synchronicity is when three hundred top brass sit together to watch dogs feasting of the uncle of Prince devil!
    (about the authenticity of last example I am not sure, there are healthy nuts who see US propaganda in such rumours)

    • frank says:

      good question,shantam.
      c g jung,who coined the word, wrote:
      it is “the coming together of inner and outer events in a way that cannot be explained by cause and effect but is meaningful to the observer”
      so,for example, when you pull your chuddies up at just at the same moment as a big splash of crap comes flying out of your ass…
      that`s synchronicity.

    • Lokesh says:

      Shantypants. It was not that SD and I agreed upon something that I wrote syncronicity. It was because we posted comments at exactly the same moment, if you care to check. You are letting the team down. You are supposed to be a SN detective. Remember?

  110. Fresch says:

    It’s true dominic, Shantam has really been “on the spot” and now you seem to get grilled by “well meaning” fellow travellers (according to Lars von Trier “well meaning others helping people are the most dangerous ones”. His parents were left wing like my parents btw.). Now in his new film he looks like going tantra way. This dicussion is real pasta or 7 course dinner for sure.

    • satyadeva says:

      Fresch, please don’t confuse me with a “well meaning” person – what do you take me for, some sort of online social worker, or ‘agony aunt’?! I’m not trying to ‘convert’ someone either, just responding to what I see as a foolishly flawed point of view – and a rather nasty piece of online work. You’re too easy on him, but perhaps you don’t fully understand? I’ve said plenty already in this current SN thread, but in case you need the context made clear(er), here’s a few notes.

      It’s essentially a debate about the worth or otherwise of spiritual teachers, indeed the very value of listening to and/or ‘following’ such individuals, during which certain relevant (and irrelevant) ‘personal issues’ have been raised by both parties.

      Dominic is more than welcome to his personal views, but likes to dogmatically insist they’re the whole truth for everyone, and is clearly emotionally, therefore self-defensively attached to this rigid position, itself almost always both symptom and cause of an unreliable, flawed approach. And he hasn’t taken kindly to this and other points being put to him, ignoring certain leading questions, for example, while freely dishing out copious amounts of abuse.

      My conclusion is that I or anyone else is simply wasting their time bothering to discuss this (or possibly any?) issue with him, as, behind that witty, would-be ‘hip’ façade is an angry, disillusioned, arrogant, middle-aged man who’ll turn nasty on anyone who dares to challenge his precious assumptions and beliefs. While refusing to publically acknowledge the degree of personal hurt that very likely lies behind this ‘Mr Know-It-All’ front.

      If you need further evidence just read the last few days”dialogue.

      • Ashok says:

        GENERAL PLEA FROM THE ABBEY FOR A CURE FROM THE PLAGUE NOTORIOUSLY COINED, AS ‘KNOW-IT-ALL-ITIS’, RAGING HEREABOUTS IN THE HOLY- DOMAIN

        Esteamed Brother Sat’ya Deva!
        I will address this issue to you as you are principally responsible for delivering the message to the notice of my keen attention. However and before any further ado, allow me to congratulate you on the beautiful clear handwriting style you generally display … my compliments to you … irrespective of whether I agree with the ideas contained within your most prominent and holy of sacred vessels….. Oh… IF ONLY SOME OF THE OTHER BROTHERS AND SISTERS LOYAL TO OUR RELIGIOUS HOLDINGS AND BELIEFS WERE HALF AS CLEAR AS YOU!. But then, in retrospect , it might not be so much fun as I feel sure you will agree?

        Such clarity of mind and execution on your part, concerning the Brother Dominic in your holy contribution, would seem to SUGGEST A DEEP INTIMACY, KNOWLEDGE AND PERSONAL INSIGHT INTO THE AWFUL BLACK DEATH PLAGUE…..aka ‘KNOW-IT-ALL-ITIS’! I therefore put it to you that in this instance we may possibly dealing with a proverbial case of ‘the kettle calling the frying-pan, black arse’?

        Oh I do so hope so because it may be then within the reach of your wont, … to diagnose the classical symptoms of the epidemic coming on in my own favoured temple of worship and diocease, oh please? To your credit Brother Satya Deva of sharp, unerring,hawk-like eye and vision, many of the local pilgrims attending seem to be suffering with acute symptoms of the disease ….. including…dare I say it?…..my own saintly personage, and not forgetting of course Birdh Eggbantam, a thoroughly defeathered soul lost overboard from His own WordShip, along with the rest of his motley crew exactly like Him, ‘pon the stormy and endless ocean of Babel Punchking..

        I am therefore curious dear Brother, given your own and obvious familiarity with the stinky arm-pit pestilence scourging us at present, AS TO WHERE THE PATH OF SALVATION MAY LIE?

        Please save me, yourself and all the brothers facing the dreaded lurgy by BRINGING TO LIGHT SOME KIND OF CURE, Brother Sat’ya or I shall be left with no alternative than to prostrate my wretched self at the door of one of the Holy Sisters ‘in despera titation’!

        Finally, a goodly favour is requested of your most humble and excellent self . Word has it that the Elusive & Enigmatic, Brother PM, has been closely collaborating with you on some metaphysical matters or some such other?!* Therefore as it would seem that you are in close contact with him, would you please make the request on my be-half of the urgent need for some special soothing teas to help me with my lonely pain and suffering, as this may provide A DEFINITIVE AND SATISFYING REMEDY TO THE DREADED AFFLICTION discussed at length already – to the benefit of all I might add!

        Now while I think of it, p’haps Father Frankus Wordus, might have some words of wisdom for us regarding our our keenly felt plight….?

        Your Faithful Anticipant, Expectant of Further Godliness,
        Brother Ashok

        FINAL DESPERATE PLEA TO ALL & SUNDRY HEREABOUTS – WHAT IS THE ANSWER TO THE PRESSING QUESTION OF ‘KNOW-IT-ALL-ITIS?

    • dominic says:

      “Well meaning” fresch?
      Just a short vowel movement required for accuracy, that is, “Well moaning.”
      As you can see for yourself a classic case of projection and shadow work. Robotic in it’s predictability.
      The humourless ferocity and repetitive monomania of the attacks reveals the substratum of unconscious material.
      Sutchya DIVA carries much anger and disappointment, but unwilling to see it at home, needs to continually find external targets to peg it on and do battle with.
      Of course he is angry with himself.
      As any guruholic or addict, his inner abandonment flings both the best and the worst of himself, outside.
      He sees ‘divinity’ in safe spiritual heroes, idealized and placed firmly beyond his reach, at a distance and al fresco.
      The more mute they are the better, as in meher baba and mummy meera. All the better to fantasize with.
      The wholesale corruption of others he minimizes, ignores, won’t acknowledge or feigns disinterest in, as in sai baba.
      His fight for control in an argument is vicious, like a dog with a large bone.
      One suspects there was a lot of fighting in his early life, but no warmth, with his parents taking a very harsh rational approach to dominance. He has been fighting them ever since with his limited weaponry.
      “No I’m right!” you hear him cry, as he is sent to his room yet again for insubordination. It literally feels like life and death.
      Not winning means not surviving.
      Out of compassion one wants to help but there is no openness for new learning. What to do?
      Keep the patient comfortable, with dressing gown and slippers, and drip feed him the methadone of spiritual babblings he is so hooked on.

      • satyadeva says:

        Well, at least you’ve responded rather than retreated into the pseudo-insouciant passive/aggressive mode of your last few posts, Dominic, so that’s some progress anyway.

        As for the content, you’re not exactly one to make a point just once and leave it at that, are you? You, like Shantam, both drone on over and over again, labouring over the same old same old, like the species of fanatic you are, or at least give the impression of being here, while criticising similar in others.

        If you don’t know why I’ve repeated certain things then you must be a very ‘selective’ reader, one who’s apparently also unaware of what he himself has written – or rather, failed to write. You’ve chosen to ignore key questions, and still won’t answer, preferring to take refuge in would-be clever-dick passive/aggressive ploys that are, in their way, equally as “vicious” as you like to term my style of debate.

        In fact, in this prolonged argument you yourself, Dominic, have often ‘projected’ your own stuff onto me and today I suggest you continue to do so, certainly regarding my stance towards gurus/teachers, which is in reality nothing like how you describe it. Another example of your failing to read what’s in front of you, rigidly sticking to your fixed conceptions and thereby losing intelligence. “Guruholic”? “idealised heroes”? Do me a favour, try re-reading what I’ve said, rather than what you’d like me to have said, what fits your personal agenda.

        As for “corruption” in the ranks of gurus/teachers, well, as I and Parmartha have said, it’s a matter of discrimination. I don’t deny there’s bad stuff out there, but I also know, from personal experience, there’s an enormous amount of good as well. Hopefully led by good instincts, you make your choice and take your chances. Personally, I haven’t come across a wrong ‘un, so I’m grateful for that.

        Still, to an extent you’re on the ball re my family background, which, as I’ve already intimated, wasn’t exactly the best start to life, to put it mildly, although these days, thanks to the help I’ve been fortunate to have received, I’m doing relatively ok and I’m not actually “disappointed”, which again I suggest is your projection.

        I wonder whether your own past and present circumstances bear closer scrutiny, but let’s not go into that now, eh?

        • dominic says:

          My charming, perfectly formed, and often best responses, sometimes get deleted here by our ‘nanny state’ overlords and there’s no right of appeal, so I may appear silent.
          What to do? I learn microcosmically, the bitter taste of helplessness in the face of a contingent world.
          This too will probably get deleted.
          Shakespeare said it best in king lear.
          “As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport.”

          As a public service, may be this can help you…
          “Welcome to the Psychiatric Hotline.
          If you are obsessive-compulsive, please press 1 repeatedly.
          If you are co-dependent, please ask someone to press 2.
          If you have multiple personalities, please press 3, 4, 5, and 6.
          If you are paranoid-delusional, we know who you are and what you want. Just stay on the line so we can trace the call.
          If you are schizophrenic, listen carefully and a little voice will tell you which number to press.
          If you are depressed, it doesn’t matter which number you press. No one will answer.
          If you are delusional and occasionally hallucinate, please be aware that the thing you are holding on the side of your head is alive and about to bite off your ear.”

  111. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    dear dominic

    what i posted addressing you in particular at 1.21 pm
    war related to your posting at 12.30 pm
    and nothing more and nothing less too

    the fun issue very much relative
    when dealing with some mess a accuring on the flat line circus of virtual realms
    and forgetting to be as best of accurate to the seeable time table an mention that too
    real persons behind it – including me as an individual in flesh and bones
    and so are you

    and dealing with all kinds of masquerades – charades as well as timings-
    IS not easy

    as well as it is not easy to sometimes feeling the role of trixters energetically present
    (also as real persons indeed ????)
    trixters who play poker with timings
    much mess sometimes comes out of it
    much misunderstanding
    as in real life too

    madhu

    and some response to frank and his posting at 2.02 pm..

    my goodness frank
    have you been present (in the body to listen and absolve
    the FAMOUS F…. lecture

    i ve been present
    and laughed my belly off

    anyway
    that kind of reloading was fabulous
    and the experience it was donating as a gift to me
    was
    that some of the laughter we enjoyed amongst friends and fellowtravellers throughout the times
    has as much power as the pains
    and to feel that confirmed
    i loved so much
    because i have a lack of these sides of trust
    quite often

    all is a gift
    and still i m not choicelessness in gratifying it

    but i am on my way
    like everybody present here

    the wave though
    what came after
    is or seems to be with a kind of shield
    “for men only” a men s group
    has to be respected from the far
    but
    thats very beautiful that i am allowed to look at it

    but be careful
    like one of this group mentioned the “evil” women in it…”happening”

    i wish to us ALL
    an ever so often fresh beginning with a fresh beginners mind and FRESH-beyond mind
    because in the latter aspect
    the diversification of “sexes” are not that important any more

    madu s
    hello to everybody
    from a far away corner

    and …….
    ps

    think of the cleaning team too
    who
    ever now and then
    have to clean up (it s their job)
    also
    in a virtual-transrapid or so

  112. Fresch says:

    Lokesh, what ever triggers you with your lady..

  113. Lokesh says:

    My conclusion is that Osho was correct when he said nobody is here to fulfil your dream, including his, if the current state of this thread is anything to go by. Oh well, never mind. Rave on!

    • Arpana says:

      Excellent observation.

      • Arpana says:

        The first step is: accept yourself as you are; drop all shoulds. Don’t carry any ought on your heart! You are not to be somebody else; you are not expected to do something which doesn’t belong to you — you are just to be yourself. Relax! and just be yourself. Be respectful to your individuality. and have the courage to sign your own signature. Don’t go on copying others signatures.

        Osho.
        A Sudden Clash of Thunder
        Chapter #8
        Chapter title: Choicelessness is Bliss

        So please don’t be inspired by me; otherwise you will never become a source of inspiration. You will be just a carbon copy, you won’t have your authentic, original face. You will be a hypocrite: you will say one thing — you will do another. You will show your face in different situations with different masks, and slowly, slowly you will forget which one is your real face; so many masks…

        Osho
        Beyond Psychology
        Chapter #5
        Chapter title: You have to go nowhere

  114. shantam prem says:

    If somebody´s dream becomes your dream, you give your life to fulfil it.
    Despite of my criticism reserved only for Jayesh, man has given his intensity and passion to stand with something, many left after getting the desired commodities.
    Unfortunately, he had not trusted that there are thousand others who are equally passionate about, that dream, that vision, that atmosphere, which was not built by his Osho only.
    Without disciples Osho is as lost as frank on his bed in old people´s home.

    • Lokesh says:

      I leave you my nightmare. Shantypants.

    • dominic says:

      People presumably left because they were NOT getting the desired commodities, like yourself.
      The average sanyassin hasn’t a clue who or what jayesh stands for.
      Surely part of the problem.
      You make Osho sound as dependent on his disciples as they on him.
      At least for once I didn’t have to say it.
      That is one old people’s home I would like to visit.
      Why not give your life then to fulfill this ‘dream’ with all this energy of nostalgia? Return to poona… start a centre… or join one?
      “Osho Chuddie Celebration Center now offering daily meditations.
      Women come for free.”

  115. phoenix says:

    The concept of enlightenment may be nothing more than a desperate but false dream of the spiritually stunted. Because it is false, it must fail. Just as out of reach grapes are called sour, the failed dream must then be vilified.

    Yet all is projection.

    A swine will easily find another swine to agree that pearls cannot be chewed easily, and that they are without taste.

    The stunted impoverished soul craves approval, congratulation.

    Now what do we call that stunted soul? It has a very famous name. I will come to it in a minute.

    I stand accused of using the cliche of the dewdrop falling into the ocean to describe transcendence. For me it is not cliche, but a beautiful and apt picture. Is E=Mc2 a cliche because it is used often? No, it is used often because it works for many. Same with the dewdrop. It works for many. If it doesn’t work for you, no need to knock it…

    I was asked: what have I transcended? Let me answer once again, but differently. In fact, let me rephrase the question, better would be: What has been transcended?

    The answer is simple. It is that famous false thing, it is that thing of which nothing more need be said, once it is discarded, simply because it is false, and one is well rid of it.

    Ego.

    • Arpana says:

      You are the third individual I’ve come across on line making such a claim, and the three of you have in common, such a down to earth speaking, writng style on the subject, that I find myself devoid of cynicism as to your claims, indeed feel warmed, but its the down to earthness that warms me.

      ( Have come across more than three people on line who believe they are ‘enlightened’, all of whom get very angry if they come across anyone who doesnt want to kiss their ass. (You know who you are.) and they definately don’t elicit warmth in me. )

  116. shantam prem says:

    Difference between Master and teacher; I think everybody knows what is the difference between A billionaire and a millionaire!

    Few people are happy to find spiritual teacher, there is nothing wrong in it. As far as sex is concerned, laws of economy says, ” Fucking whore is much more visible option to save money than to ask similar service from wife.”
    One can have variety of girls in an given year, but not the stingy thing called wife.”
    And is it not a heart warming thing that no such girl will think about automatic inheritance after your death, wife will be already in the counting mode while choosing black lingerie, black dress and polished black shoes(without heals)!

    • Lokesh says:

      Shantam, your negative take on long-term relationships, is it from experience or what you imagine from the sidelines? Oh, I forgot…it is Shantipants I’m addressing so abandon hope all ye who enter here hoping from a coherant response from the chuddie king.

    • dominic says:

      “As far as sex is concerned”… SP has sex on the brain… (though he calls it ‘osho’), and it’s a frustrating place to keep it.
      You’re probably just lonely shantypants, when you’re thinking of panties.

  117. Fresch says:

    Satyadeva, I was writing at general level, but you are the one reflecting on it.

    I do not feel being “easy” on Shantam. During several years here at Sanyas News I have suggested him to start organizing his own, perhaps a small meditation group (any meditations) instead of whining about Pune in internet. Also I see him being lazy not doing so. But that is his choice by all means. I would love to read his experience about it if he went for it.

    On the other hand I have enjoyed very much somebody who is not Rajneesh, derage or ekatam (even in some pervert way I enjoy them too in small dozes) to bring Indian flavour in to this discussion in more grounded way.

    What comes to Dominic he seems to have some spiritual crisis. But it’s a bit too much to expect one person to start putting out all his own personal stories while others are not doing so. Instead perhaps he has gotten new inspirations from writing and sharing any way.

    My reflection with you Satyam is that you might come out a bit as an antie like me droning on about with people when enough could be just let people find out for them selves. But that’s ok too, in a way it’s sweet because you show you care. None of us is exactly perfect all the time. You see, I am being an antie now myself.

    • dominic says:

      “What comes to Dominic he seems to have some spiritual crisis.”
      Too much vino last night freschie?
      On what do you base this?
      If humour, insight and calling BS are deemed spiritual crisis, bring it on.
      Perhaps the Mother Mirror effect.
      The two Auntie-dotes. Oh no! The horror! The horror!
      SD… about as sweet as a Neem Tree.
      You’re right about the droning.

  118. Fresch says:

    One more thing, Satyadeva and rest of you who have brought up this Indian superiority complex in spirituality, for me it has been interesting because there is a blind point to bring more life into it in plural (Thanks Arpana) sanyas network. That’s why I also suggested Shantam to script write his Indian version of the movie “Do the Right thing” that is focused black, brown, yellow racist attitudes movie done by a black director. But if you all 4-10 chaps jump on one person Shantam about it without reflecting your own issues in the matter it cannot go very far, can it? The main reason I would not take a trip to the Mars with Shantam is that he is not meditating, but asking others (mainly Pune authorities) to do so. Any way he is already living in the best possible country for that; most experience in democracy, best technical university in Europe to build the plane and closest distances to all osho centers

    • frank says:

      fleschie,
      `the most experience in democracy`. that means Switzerland not germany, I presume?
      actually,i sympathise with shantam.
      the sadhana that he has chosen living in Switzerland ,for an indian or any brown person ,must be much more arduous than sleeping naked on a bed of nails in the high Himalayas! no wonder he dreams about being back home.
      india is a filthy hole, full of religious bullshitters,and bogged down by the caste system,but,inspite of all that…,dont ask me how…the people have soul…. whereas the swiss,for the most part,despite their wealth and clean streets are the most miserable robot bunch of sods I`ve ever had the misfortune to meet…..
      financially and politically,not for no reason has switz been labelled “a parasite livng off the developing world”…
      so go for it,shantam…scam as much of their cash in social payments as you can…a good deal of it has come from fat rich Indians,dictators and other murderous bastards who ripped their own people off and stashed it there,anyway…

      .

      • frank says:

        and the average swiss self-righteously goes on believing they are the beacon of humanity and `most experienced in democracy`etc
        if I ever catch a ride to mars,i will make sure I`m not stuck with a bunch of swiss. a couple of light years being stuck in the same compartment with them?
        it doesn’t bear thinking about.

        • dominic says:

          What about albert hofman, herman hesse, andreas vollenweider, ursula andress and c.g., can they come?
          No toblerone for you.

      • roman says:

        Frank,

        Yes!

        ‘A recent study by the World Institute for Development Economic Research at the United Nations University reports that the richest 1 per cent of adults owned 40 per cent of global assets in the year 2000 and that the richest 10 per cent of adults accounted for 85 per cent of the total wealth of the world. The bottom half of the world’s adult population owned 1 per cent of global wealth’.

        Zygmunt Bauman
        ‘Does the Richness of the Few Benefit Us All?

        By the way I’m not quoting from some ‘vulgar’ Marxist but a very subtle thinker. In actual fact it is much worse than this which he goes on to explain. Today with the increase in billionaires it is about 1% owning 87% of the world’s wealth.
        We are in for interesting times, liquid times. Human waste, produced on a massive scale
        ‘All that is solid melts into thin air’ Karl Marx

        So I’m sitting down at the beach watching the pigeons. Reminds me of Forrest Gump but without his mindset. Is this our new man?

        On a positive side your comment about Taoism struck a cord. ‘Classical Chinese Poetry’ by David Hinton is wonderful. Those Taoist/Chan poets weren’t into national imperialism like the Zen guys. Nice to see leading Zen schools acknowledging how complicit they were during the Second World War. I do love some of the individual Zen crew who were always marginalized.

        I’ll leave you with some more turds by zen master Ikkyu who exposed all the hypocrisy in the Zen monasteries.

        ‘age eighty weak
        I shit and offer it to Buddha’

        ‘even if Buddha himself kneeled at my deathbed
        he wouldn’t be worth shit’

  119. Fresch says:

    Dominic, just check when and what time I wrote my post you are referring, that is not my time for whine yet. Just bring more light into the details. We woman tend to say after a shity relationship that all men are schwein . Then some try to scan in internet date sites the perfect new partner. I call that crisis, not risking, not being vulnerable.

    • dominic says:

      A time for whining then…
      That’s a ‘fanny’ and manipulative definition of ‘crisis’, no wonder men are frustrating for you. There’s quite some pressure there.
      May you find the next perfect schwein (frog-prince) or a nice compliant one.

  120. shantam prem says:

    French,
    Let us not think about Mars.
    Shantam is meditating or not, can be checked only through meeting. Let we take a coffee at some airport shop, you can bring your ECG machine with!

    • Lokesh says:

      Fresch, don’t go. It is a set up. Remember Hannibal Lector.

      • dominic says:

        Good point.
        Be afraid, be very afraid, if he’s let out of the institution and says I’m having a friend over for dinner.
        You don’t know what pain is freschie!
        Could be the worst last two hours of your life.
        I hear he makes a nice liver with chianti and some f-f-f-fava beans.

        • frank says:

          you guys are just jealous of the shantam the balti babe magnet, aka jullundurs` answer to george clooney..
          its well known that down in switz,its so boring that the chicks are just mad for a bit of well-browned meat.
          the place is so dull, and what with all the guys either at home cleaning their swiss army knives,counting their money, working hard at towing the line 24/7 or down junkie park,some of the ladies are bound to realise that theres only so much rosti you can eat and start hankering for a bit of masala sausage.
          those girls know……that isn`t a lidl belly hanging out over the top of shanty`s chuddies ,
          its a fuel tank for a love machine……

  121. phoenix says:

    Now who is Arpana, at 111pm 5th January, talking to?
    His post is published right after mine, so maybe I am one of the virtuous three whose claims warm his heart.

    But perhaps I am rather classified among the ‘more than three’ who do not, because they react angrily to anyone who does not kiss their ass after hearing their claims of enlightenment.

    Let me say this.
    I have tried on this thread to develop the skill to say exactly what I want, even in the heat of the fire of antagonism, without adding fuel to that fire at all.

    It meant finding a very fine line. If I overstepped it, I apologise.

    And let me add this.
    Hurt and anger have indeed arisen in me. I have offered one of the most beautiful parables I know, of the dewdrop falling into the ocean.
    And it has seemed – but who can be quite sure online? – to be met with cynicism and prejudice. I did not like that.

    But no matter now. I write as I feel to, yet I should not feel attached to my words, they are just canoes, which can be put down, to move me a little forward, towards more words… or wordlessnesses.

    • Arpana says:

      You are one of the three.
      I tried to make that as clear as I could.

      I have laid myself open to being shat on from a great height.
      Anything but sneering cynicism is seen pretty much as weakness at Sannyas News by and large.

      • roman says:

        Arpana,
        A pigeon shat on me recently. ‘Is there providence in the …..’
        Cynicism a postmodern disease? A collapse of all values?
        Nihilism?
        Become creative nihilists? Freddie N.
        Osho gave it a go. Experiments are risky. Bless his heart.

        • Arpana says:

          Funny you should say that!!!

          • roman says:

            Arpana

            Stone Buddhas get lots of bird shit. In some cultures it is a sign of good luck. I felt privileged and burst out laughing.

            • Arpana says:

              Well that’s another way of looking at how the neighbor is carrying on at the moment.

              w(^o^)W

            • frank says:

              “cynicism is the only hope for humanity
              I teach….the new dog!”
              — woofo . “the tongue tip taste of chow”

              • Arpana says:

                The husband was one of those cynical, sour guys whom nothing moved or impressed. To him, everything was just a big “so what?” He visited a psychiatrist, and after a short examination was given this diagnosis: “You are cold and blase. To you, everything means a big nothing. You are married, eh? Well, here’s what you do. Ringling’s circus is in the town: take your wife and see the show. Take a look at how red-blooded people live and act. Watch the performers who live dangerously; see how they pulsate and glow.”

                The schnook took his wife to the circus. Out into the ring came the roaring lions and tigers. The wife
                was thrilled by the excitement, but the husband yawned and replied, “Yeah? So what?” Finally there camethe grand finale where the daredevil was shot out of a cannon three hundred feet into the air, turned several somersaults, and then, pulling out a clarinet, began playing before hitting the net. The crowd roared its appreciation for the act, but the husband, after a few minutes of thought, turned to his wife and grunted in a bored manner, “A Benny Goodman he’s not!”

                Osho.
                The Divine Melody
                Chapter #6
                Chapter title: : You will awake praying

        • dominic says:

          Roman… grecian… whatever..
          Bitter, cynical, misanthropic, postmodern, pessimistic nihilism?
          I don’t see the problem… with this position, you’re unlikely to be disappointed. Highly recommended.
          Philosophical Creedo
          “The glass is half empty, dirty, chipped,cracked, the water’s contaminated and I just cut my lip on it.
          Plus the service in here is terrible.”
          Thinking of replying? Why bother?

          • roman says:

            Dominic’s replied to me. Shit! What do I say now? Does he want me to reply? Is it a device? Is he wise? He’s rubbished Rolf Harris, trust British paints sure can, or was it someone called Barry or Larry? He didn’t mention Free Lunch. No Free Lunch is Frank. Fuck! And then there was Dylan. I’m confused. He really wants me to reply. Fuck……..I’ll take a piss. Bladder bursting. Prostate is okay but it gets most of us. Won’t drink so much tonight. No midnight pissing. Where am I? Can’t go on……… I must. Fuck! Fuck! That’s not me. Its Beckett. Samuel. Pinter said he’s not worthy of liking his boots. I’m not worthy of licking Pinter’s. Shit! Fucking inferiority complex. No doubt that’s why I went to Osho. All unconscious, didn’t fucking know.
            No, it was the women. Got more than I asked for. Nothing spiritual. I was conned. Fuck! Where am I? Wait! Think! No don’t think! It is a mind fuck. I’m in my head. Wait it’s Dominic! That’s it! Dominic! Dominic! Reply! Who cares! I’m alone! No Dominic is there! I’ll reply! I WILL!

            Dominic,
            I accept the gift. Thank you. Between the nihilistic certitude of some and the fundamentalist exaltation of others where do we go? Can you help? Please don’t pass me by!

            There I’ve done it. I replied.

            • dominic says:

              Just breathe and relax, while we plug you into the mainframe……. there didn’t hurt did it?
              “Let me tell you why you’re here. You’re here because you know something. What you know you can’t explain, but you feel it. You’ve felt it your entire life, that there’s something wrong with the world. You don’t know what it is, but it’s there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad.”
              - Morpheus

              Fyi, Father Arpana is just an old glitchy programme from an earlier prototype. I’m afraid he can’t handle much more than copy/paste.

              • dominic says:

                “where do we go?”
                “Nothing happens. Nobody comes, Nobody goes. It’s awful.”
                -Waiting for Godot.

    • satyadeva says:

      phoenix, perhaps you might find more positive responses if you were to describe what you’re talking about in more detail. As things stand, I for one simply don’t understand, except in the vaguest of terms. Unfortunately, using such a ‘borrowed’ image can easily be (mis)interpreted as pretentious, cliché-ridden waffle.

      So could you possibly try and put it into rather more ‘everyday’ terms, please? Don’t worry, I’m sure there are plenty of open minds here.

      • Lokesh says:

        Well put, SD. Very gentlemanly indeed. The metaphor in question is a classic, and a beautiful one at that. Osho was fond of using it and from his lips it sounded just dandy. If I used it you’d all wonder what is up with me and almost certainly pull my leg about it and quite rightly so. Phoenix is obviously a sensitive chap, some might say oversensitive. Nothing wrong wih that. SN is a playground, it may get a little rough from time to time but, as far as the regulars go, we are a bunch of softies at heart. Taking oneself seriously on SN is a mistake.

      • satyadeva says:

        Btw, I can relate to what you said about self-restraint. That’s along the lines of what I’m getting at, ie something that makes ‘normal’ sense, accessible to us ‘ordinaries’, although in the possibly ‘numinous’ (is that the right word?) context of the ‘experience’ (is that the right word?) that you’re trying to convey.

    • roman says:

      Phoenix,
      Nice.
      There is the stream crosser and the stream observer.
      Gautama
      the sutras don’t have dress crossers.

  122. phoenix says:

    … And of course, all the words of others too, whether liked or disliked, have also served to move me forward. So to everyone I say Thankyou.

  123. Fresch says:

    Dominic, I was not talking about your personal life, it was a metaphor for your whining about gurus and teachers all being fraud. Excuse me if your complaining “seems some kind of crisis”. And Shantam, I would love to meet you (or as any one here) and I am sure I will one day just on this earth, I hope.

    • Lokesh says:

      At your own risk. Shatypants will say he has to go to the toilet in order to change his chuddies and then run away and leave you with the bill.

    • dominic says:

      No freschie, I was talking about yours as a metaphor for seeking and inevitable disappointment.
      Are you whining about my ‘whining’?
      I am not whining or complaining, just stating. It’s a public service.
      Like on london transport, they have signs saying,
      “Look out, thieves and pickpockets are operating in this area”.
      I never said all are fraud. I’m sure most think they’re not. Probably few are outright fraud. Many a mixture of delusional, narcissistic and well-intentioned.

      • satyadeva says:

        That sounds a bit more reasonable, Dominic, although somewhat disingenuous in view of how strongly you made the case for the prosecution.

        But what about your scepticism, often enough expressed with deep, disbelieving cynicism, regarding the benefits of ‘associating’ with teacher(s)/guru(s)? Have you now also modified such views, perhaps to accept that your experience and conclusions, while true for you, might not be true for others, or even perhaps the majority?

        • dominic says:

          I’d love to help you with your reading apprehension, but it’s above my paygrade.
          Whatever you imagine the benefits to be, I am sure they are that.

          • satyadeva says:

            In the last few moments of extra time now and there he goes – my, such a graceful, yet deadly side-step by this fiendishly clever, tricky little player – feints to go one way, then the other, then nutmegs* the defender, leaving the way clear for a run on goal…

            But oh, no (as Chubby Checker sang) – he’s ‘missed’ again!
            Like he did last summer
            Oh, he’s ‘missed’ again
            Like he did last year!

            The boy just can’t finish, Gary! He’s confusing where he thinks the goalposts are with where they actually are! He can’t see the wood for the trees! Thus failing to distinguish imagination and reality! And frankly, Gary, he’s been doing this for some time now – not good enough for a player of his experience, not at all.

            Something wrong there, I reckon…If I were his manager I’d have him back for extra training every day for at least the next month. That, plus at least a dozen sessions with the club psychologist…

            Mind you, with a talent like that for missing the whole point of the game while deluding himself everything’s fine, maybe he should just give up and go into politics? They can always do with another slippery so’n'so to fend off leading questions when put on the spot by a persistent, ‘difficult’ interviewer determined to establish the truth. Could be a smart career move – after all, he is getting on a bit….

            *nutmegs – beats an opposing player by putting the ball between his (the defender’s) legs, running around him to collect it and move on.

            • dominic says:

              Gary you should stick to selling crisps.
              You don’t know your arse from a hole in the ground.
              We’ve had the final whistle, the game’s over, and he walked off with the cup ages ago.
              You’re a twelfth man trying to be a player.
              Yeah… You could have been a contender… In your dreams.
              “No guru, no cry”

              • satyadeva says:

                Well, he’s walked off the pitch, he’s sent himself off, Gary! Quite right too, of course, but still most surprising.

                Or is it? Is it really true that these Anglo-Italians simply “don’t like it up ‘em”?

                Well, committing foul after foul then crying ‘hard done by’ when he gets a bit of hard-but-fair treatment? I reckon it is, Gary, if this one’s anything to go by!

                • dominic says:

                  Well Gary dribbles a lot. It’s not a pretty sight!
                  And the oppositions shots are only a mile or two either side of the post.
                  Sure there have been some injuries to their team, but they’re no more comatose than before. They shouldn’t notice.
                  If there’s a rematch we can expect the same thing.
                  Another total wipe-out.
                  Sadly denial is without doubt the first response of a Guruholic. Would take a lot of ‘bottle’ to fess up!

                • satyadeva says:

                  Judging from these post-match comments, Gary, the ‘lad’ Dominic appears to have been playing another game – in his own mind, at least!

                  Totally agree, Brian, I mean, you only have to watch the video replays to see he’s ben played off the flamin’ park!

                  Seems not only his legs have gone, but his memory, ability to read (the game) and his capacity to deliver an accurate, honest assessment of his and the opposition’s performance. Discrimination gone, totally gone.

                  Funny old game, eh, Gary?

                  Certainly is that, Brian. As I said, extra work at the training ground and plenty of sessions with the club psychologist probably the only way forward.

                  Yes, Gary – either them two or give up the game altogether…

                  Dead right, Brian. Fancy a crisp, mate?

                  Cheers, pal – I need something to take my mind off this pile of shite.

                • dominic says:

                  Well it’s a tough game for the common-tators. They’re all over the place,
                  dribbling, going round in circles and just not scoring.
                  Maybe they need to call in a substitution. Let’s see who have they got? Arpana? Hopeless, no… maybe they need to pass it to frank. They’re gonna have to buy in some new players if they don’t wanna get relegated.
                  It’s fantasy football league at the moment.
                  They’ve resorted to comfort eating, chanting mantras, offering pujas to their gurus, as well as kissing their team’s balls.
                  But I’m afraid there’s no beginning to their talent,
                  and they’ll all be down the job centre tomorrow.
                  Tragic really.

            • Arpana says:

              Are Kristians allowed to play footy SD?

              • Arpana says:

                I thought they were supposed to go round trying to make sure everybody was as fucking miserable and bitter as they are.

                • dominic says:

                  Good lord! Father Arpana is creating another vitriolic schism in the church. He should stick to what he knows best, singing from the Osho Hymn book and playing his organ. He’s got lots of first-hand experience there!

              • satyadeva says:

                I believe they are, Arps, yes.

                Although they can tend to become rather, er, ‘cross’ when the game’s going against them…

                Somewhat like ‘pseudo-sannyasins’ or certain species of ‘fellow-travellers’ who absolutely hate the whole concept of being ‘taught’ and then try to foist that disillusioned, bitter, angry perspective onto others.

                What ‘mystifies’ me (if you’ll pardon the term) is how few bother to oppose such utter heresy. I really do need to have a word with the vicar about it…

                Meanwhile, any ideas?

                • Arpana says:

                  Maybe if you ignore him, although doesn’t work with Shantam.

                • dominic says:

                  Sorry to disturb the love-in chaps. But if your rants are as soggy bottomed and witless as this I’ll have to move on, while you assume the missionaries position.
                  Perhaps you can prop each other up, since you’re both a bit wobbly on your own feet, and need support and training wheels, (with the guru’s approval of course!)

                • satyadeva says:

                  Oh, the Hostility! Oh the Bitterness!

                  And to think, once upon a time, loooonnnngg ago, poor ‘Privates’ (as Dominic was affectionately nicknamed) was ‘called’ to a faraway land, only to utterly waste the ‘best years of his life’, in abject thrall to a foreign dick-tator…

                  Oh, the Regrets! Oh, the Rage! Oh, the Thirst for Sweet Revenge!

                  “I’ll get them all
                  Then
                  Retire to Penge!”

                  Resentment burns
                  The Truth he spurns
                  An angry man -
                  No lessons learned!

                • dominic says:

                  ~Ode To A Diva~

                  The silly boy he’s lost his head
                  He really should’ve stayed in bed.
                  The pot that calls the kettle black
                  What goes around always comes back.
                  So much scrap and so much fight
                  Is he a creature of the night?
                  And where’s the fruit to all his labours
                  Sitting at the feet of saviours?
                  Has it made him wise or kind
                  Or only lost inside his mind?
                  More like a judge or Mr Spock
                  And You defendant in the dock.
                  His logic lunges strict and square
                  And with Arpana… what a pair!
                  His love of gurus just a con
                  So he can ramble on and on.
                  His first love yes… I think you’ve guessed
                  It’s football, cricket, and the rest!

                • satyadeva says:

                  Ode to ‘Privates’ Dom

                  The silly ‘lad’ he’s lost his head
                  Gone for mid-life crisis ‘hip’ street cred.
                  The pot that calls the kettle black
                  What goes around has just come back.
                  For all he thinks he has the right
                  To say we’re in an awful plight,
                  He’s spent his life chasing Masters
                  And now he claims they’re all ‘Disasters’!
                  Has it made him wise or kind?
                  ‘Fraid not, as he’s in spirit blind.
                  Less like a judge than a ‘Mr Mock’
                  He claims he couldn’t give a ‘fock’!
                  He really longs to be in a Pair
                  And with – what, no one? – Quel Despair!
                  His hate of teachers just a con
                  So he can bore us, droning on.
                  His first love? Yes, I think you’ve guessed…
                  HIs ‘clever-dick’ self ( and “sod the rest!”).

  124. Fresch says:

    And now, after dinner and delicious white wine, I repeat also my other old request how much fun it would be to meet all of you some day on this real earth real life as Sanyas News readers somewhere including Rajneesh gang..

    • roman says:

      Fresch,

      The beauty of online religion is that we aren’t literally sniffed and we don’t have to attend church meetings.
      We are obviously under surveillance by the Vatican. Surveillance is everywhere these days. You’ve already been quoted in a University study of new religions. Now that you’ve revealed your sex, but not your gender that will be filed away. It is a bit like the Minority Report. Digital techniques monitoring everything that will happen. We don’t need Bentham’s Panopticon. We’ve been brainwashed into surveilling ourselves. Every part of our lives is under surveillance. Rancho Rajneeesh has gone global. The message has spread over the whole planet. What prophets you are Osho and Phillip K. Dick.
      Anyway we can have fake vegan chocolate and coffee in the Matrix.
      Who knows about the real thing? Perhaps one day. As Osho says anything is possible.

      • dominic says:

        Yes the Vatican can.
        We’re all digital pimps working hard for the machines… and your keyboard is spying on you!
        But if this universe doesn’t meet your standards, you should see some of the others!
        Someone or something is watching over me and cares enough to take an interest… Now I feel a little less alone in this empty, meaningless, purposeless infinity of longfacebook friends.
        For the surveillance teams…
        “Warning: If you are reading this then this warning is for you. Every word you read of this useless fine print is another second off your life. Don’t you have other things to do? Is your life so empty that you honestly can’t think of a better way to spend these moments? Or are you so impressed with authority that you give respect and credence to all that claim it? Do you read everything you’re supposed to read? Do you think every thing you’re supposed to think? Buy what you’re told to want? Get out of your apartment. Meet a member of the opposite sex. Stop the excessive shopping and masturbation. Quit your job. Start a fight. Prove you’re alive. If you don’t claim your humanity you will become a statistic. You have been warned.”

    • dominic says:

      Oh great gang warfare!
      A punch up in the SN car park behind Tescos.
      Will it be a private fight or can anyone join in?
      Every little helps.

      • roman says:

        That’s the problem. Whilst we are acting like Droogs, a Christian Evangelical Millennialist group are doing kundalini in front of a blonde haired blue eyed photo of Jesus. Talk about postmodern. They then sit in pink robes yelling out Christ. Everything is appropriated in these times.

  125. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    MOD: MADHU, YOU’RE VERY WELCOME HERE, BUT PLEASE TRY TO KEEP MORE OR LESS ‘ON TOPIC’ (OR THEREABOUTS0) IF POSSIBLE. WILL LET YOU HAVE THIS ONE AS A NEWCOMER…

    response to you, dominic (your post at 5.januar at 2.20 pm)

    late
    but in a way also accurate time
    because your toblerlone thing…saved me
    the ripples of laughter throughout the hours talking in a way
    taking care of me
    not to indulge to deep in the television store (at home)
    “jeremy irons and meryll streep today with the xxxx tv-repetition of “house of the ghosts…”
    i just now used the button to shut down
    not to get drowned once and again in the whole melodramatic
    and also touching story of southamerican history-ries and temptations to get emotional on a very bad trip
    (like it happened before again and again)

    this (your)thing with the toblerone made the run
    or better
    the inner experience of some tiny little inner video-spot (self-made)
    i just saw when i read it
    and just laughed and laughed and laughed
    how elegant
    smart the flight of the golf ball

    and the best of english in a way

    what i saw in inner eyes
    was a men
    on a special golfing turnier
    very decent
    hitting the ball

    and this ball then went over BASHOS POND
    and then
    found its hole
    (the golfing language i m sorry is not in my capacity as i do not golfe
    just looking)

    but
    staying in the little picture-movie
    … i then ran and looked after the spot where this ball had disappeared
    because the golfer (you) had already disappeared to
    hit some other targets in the beautiful
    (but very crowded landscape)

    so
    i looked into the hole where the golf ball had disappeared

    enjoyed BASHOS POND

    and guess what
    beneath the golf ball a fresh package of the marvelous toblerone i found

    i am forbidden to eat it though
    but my memories to this kind of chocolate are just marvelous
    i loved it
    ages ago
    when all teeth have been more or less sane as delicious

    now

    that s over
    but the memory of a good chocolate is not over

    was it you ?????
    by the way
    who mentioned the home for the old aged (“sannyasin”)
    sticking to memories …????
    but that was another hit by your side
    aiming at other bits and bytes trash moving s
    from here to here and from there to there

    and i m not concerned
    about everything
    cannot

    so
    for me it is beautiful to see where i get hooked
    and then sometimes enjoy that
    sometimes not

    but this story inside i enjoyed so much so

    that i want to share that with you

    well

    all of us DESERVE a good chocolate
    don t we ???
    even a swiss one

    and even one
    one can only remember

    and also outside or better BEYOND some loveless home for the old aged

    enough of this kind of stuff
    is
    happening isn t it ???

    happy go-lucky-inner movies-enjoying-madhu
    send some special toblerone- advertising to YOU
    no swiss
    no german
    no english
    no russian
    no italian product
    and what firm addresses more…
    NO
    just

    CHOCOLATE
    withe tiny bits of nuts and almonds in it and formed
    ahhhh well formed

    madhu s discovery

    when the golfer was already gone

    • dominic says:

      Personally I think your poet’s heart is on message Madhu!
      Toblerone… So, delicious, tempting, indulgent, more-ish… and full of Nuts.

    • Ashok says:

      POOR WANDERING ONE
      (A poem by an Irish Wonderering Sanyass-in-first, that has surely strayed in his tinking)

      Paper tiger burning bright
      In the forest of the fights
      What mortal hand or eye
      Framed thy cheerful alchemy?

      ‘The Master’s final words…. “I leave you my fresh German ice-creams
      Plus an Indian friend, Romans and countrymen more like Athenes”
      Pity poor Paddy, so lost in his own whim
      Not able to see the glaringly obvious, when presented to him!

      Maybe delusional paranoia tinking again
      But I reckon the penny’s finally dropped
      With a big ding-dong jolt from my pen-pal Ben!
      Time to head for me meds you might pray
      But I’ll try to think on a little more in future
      Afore I swallow every damn ting some of you lot say!

      (Extracted from Gilbert O’Sullivan’s ‘Pirates of Pens-angst’ inspired by various other sannyasin clear writers ‘n’ tinkerers.)

  126. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    now you got me straight to the point
    dominic (your post 5.january at 10.53 pm)
    thank you for drying me up
    i needed ist
    the direct neighborhood is
    you know

    turkish
    and they love (female)liver too
    fresh beaconed as far as the IT crimes allow it
    a feast for the whole neighborhood where these guys are well connected
    they are as well very good connected to the manuals of frying female liver
    right fro the IT area i am living in
    sorry to say
    well the german neofascists also like fresh female liver fried

    and so

    i deep correction was needed
    and i am talking of the here-now.DE

    and yet
    i spoke out
    it has been so seductive to try to share to an “well) unknown “pond” and golf players who really
    i learn to love
    even in the virtual realms
    but reality bites
    isn t it

    and i am neither that romantic kind of indulging but in other ways i may be an
    hopeless case
    but nuts
    i am not
    just hopeless case
    may be sometimes imagining in the desert I feel having some fatamorgana

    we re living here in a multicultural ethnic
    and what the collective unconscious depends
    on the one hand a male male and pascha-male surrounding
    murder of “honor” is also integrated
    also the fundamental christians don t reject that possibility of extinguishing a female that simply does t fit here

    well
    the hackings and huggings and stalkings are also in full gears
    and i have to encounter that being in a kind of surrounding where GAMES
    (“reality”)GAMES
    (“reality”)GAMES
    are coming into everyday life s anything and by people who sometimes are really nightmarish for me

    and targeting a person like me

    your are also a good example of a player and you know what you write
    well—most of the time i guess
    targeting a person like me
    over long years now like here where i am living
    sort of…
    targeting is
    very easy if you belong to what ist called
    a SWARM (?)(schwarm) team players like in every dimension also
    fun-loving-criminals
    human rights movement ? well
    the liver eaters SHIT on that while having their female liver fresh by trojaners and hackers on THEIR tables too

    LISTEN dominic
    i don t regret having addressed you
    not
    at
    all

    don t you please misunderstand me

    people who don t fit
    well the germans
    especially the bavariens and the well integrated immigrants of many different countries
    like to reserve as ONE possibility
    a place in a mental asylum
    to get their sometimes really obnoxious businesses (GAMES)in white collar crime gloves
    its calles “OCCULT”
    before i joined the caravanserai i came to know that
    i have been quite aware of many background facts of many really uncomfortable times i m experiencing as a women
    here
    and elsewhere too

    the aspect of “friendship” in the sannyas realm or ex-sannyas realm throughout the decades i am experiencing that too

    (hear the bugging tribe OUTSIDE my open window)

    well disillusion processing that is not just a word but an experience

    late
    i came to be part of sannyas news- cravanserai
    often i have been reading it
    and many illusions had been already gone
    many more may be lying ahead go dissolving

    pain
    is also not just a word

    from my very very early childhood times
    i have got a -let us say with modesty- gift
    it s universal
    hadn t to do with being taken care of with love and respect but had to do with the knowing

    if i am here
    i should BE here
    otherwise i would t be here

    and i loved nature so much
    a big garden also where i could hide when it was TOO MUCH with the humans

    i am born quite after the war
    but the war was still present (as now the global war-ing IS present)
    i could feel that
    i can feel that
    to make a long possible story short

    i ever so often loved the GAPS
    of a free sky
    every dimension of a free sky

    so
    the inner movie i saw when reading you post
    my laughter has been as well “free sky” as well as my running and finding “something”
    sure -loosing ist again- but you know
    THAT DOESN T MATTER

    there are gold nugget moments and there are moments which are not of this kind
    to differ the ones from the others
    happens when you grow elder
    and to honor them
    sometimes one needs a thank you address for THIS response
    if that seems to be possible -

    and here we go again – dear dominic and thank you for drying my pain too

    it just happened
    just like this
    other point
    concerning you speech with “indulging” and “nuts”

    well
    i don t feel like a spoiled child
    neither NOW
    nor when the childhood days have been happening

    ever so often so grateful to have clear memories
    of some gifts on the way
    or let us say
    having been able to meet more than remarkable BEINGS
    i would not be still on the bumpy roads from here to here
    if i would not have had this opportunity

    that i know for sure
    something keeps me going

    have you – a good night wherever you are

    yours SINCERELY
    madhu

    • dominic says:

      “Nuts” in toblerone, refers to the sweet allure of gurus and the number of nutcases to be found there. NOT to you!
      You are merely sweetly and endearingly, a little cuckoo.
      Thank you for sharing.

  127. shantam prem says:

    New String for 2014.
    This string of 28th December 2013 is history!

  128. Fresch says:

    Roman, that sounds scary, what context? I hope you corrected my language. Well, if true, interesting..I might think about the movie for you.

    For you Dominic there is one great movie “Fanny and Alexandra” by Ingmar Bergman, it tells the story of deteriorating old rich family; everything looks perfect on the outside while all is rotten inside. When spiritual group starts calling them selves as a family, be aware. However I do like all great family stories like Buddenbrooks (the book, not the tv-series) too.

    I see I have been a bit overwhelming here, just scroll up. I am waiting for a holyday, so soon go for away.

  129. phoenix says:

    Well, everything maybe quietens on the eastern front. Dominic and SD are perhaps a little reconciled; I have apologized, and others have done something similar. There were after-dinner mints… or what?… I seem to remember something like that ( but am not going back to look, my phone battery is weak, and all the scrolling through this mammouth thread tests it terribly.)

    Now…..
    Satyadeva, thanks for your feedback. You say my words are too vague, so you/one can’t respond well. Fair enough. You have seemed a bit prejudiced against me, not willing to give my (even if vague) words a chance. But perhaps I am prejudiced against you, still remembering your scepticism once towards my work here in Ghana, scepticism based partly at least, it seemed then, on some small peccadillo of mine from about 2006.

    But that is all river under the bridge, so let me/us start afresh.

    Lokesh, you say I may be oversensitive. Maybe. Perhaps I have just absorbed the ultrarespectful values of my new home, a far cry from London. Never drunken loutish behaviour on the streets, everyone always addressed not only by name but also with a title (mother, sister, uncle etc), I, as boss at work, therefore always as ‘sir’ or ‘Mr’…. And above all a great avoidance of confrontation, so that, if two people get into an argument on the street, they will typically rope in the first (often quite unknown) passer-by, and BOTH WILL THEN TALK ONLY TO HIM/HER, often a great way to stop escalation of conflict.

    And I guess I am here in Ghana because that now suits me, and the Encounter style which I learnt in my very early sannyas days is something I no longer favour, here or anywhere.

    (I also favour more seriousness, by the way, at least in the sense of concentrated attention, there is too much wisecracking and funniness for my liking here on this site, insights will be missed that way. If that means, Lokesh, that I take myself too seriously in your eyes, so be it, but remember that I never appointed you spokesperson for SN in the first place.)

    Anyway, that refusal of confrontation brings me back to how I entered this thread. I was then critiquing what I took as an ‘overpersonal’ approach to Osho in Lokesh’s opening piece. In my first thought-out version of that critique, my words were more ad hominem, but then I opted for a different tone, less confrontational, I thought. I chose words with (if I may be permitted to say so) the simplicity sometimes now called zen… And I continued in that vein… At the risk perhaps of vagueness.

    I am hoping then to get the same reverence (maybe that word will jar with some, but then, I have always been outrageous) as should at least sometimes be accorded Osho. True, he told many anecdotes from his life, but he also insisted on being a nobody; being a nobody is a very good way to do the work of liberation from the prison of personhood.

    So I then also sometimes talk, in distilled fashion; too much ‘everyday’, too much detail, and the eternal, the universal, may be obscured .

    I mention master and disciple, but they have no names. There is transcendence, but nobody who has transcended.

    It can seem good that way. If there is nobody, then no finger either… Only the moon is left, so no chance of confusion.

    See the moon shining in the deep silence of primordial night.

    • dominic says:

      “Dominic and SD are perhaps a little reconciled”
      Now that’s seriously funny!

    • satyadeva says:

      Interesting post, phoenix, thanks.

      Perhaps then, if ‘everyday’ terms might obscure the reality of what you wish to intimate, writing in terms of what it isn’t, and/or of what you’ve given up, ‘renounced’, to make space for ‘the new’ (the always there but hitherto obscured?) might make it that much clearer? You’ve already given hints, of course.

      • dominic says:

        I’ve had a team of philosophers and codebreakers, working on this through the night, trying to decipher the meaning, and we’re just not getting anywhere…
        Alan Turing (enigma, hut 8, german naval codebreaking) we need you now.

        • satyadeva says:

          One that lacks Inner Wealth
          Merely wastes his Time
          Fooling self.

          One wonders why
          Dom even bothers
          Writing this and fooling others!

          • dominic says:

            If your words are so sublime
            Tell us what was in your mind.
            It’s buggered up all our hard-drives,
            So I’ve passed it on to MI5′s
            Counter-intelligence team of swots,
            They’re good at thwarting rubbish plots.
            Perhaps I shouldn’t really censure
            It could be early onset dementia!

            • satyadeva says:

              Alive and well
              I am right Now
              No need through words
              To force and plough.

              I don’t believe what you are seeming
              That you can not see what I am meaning.
              MI5? That’s just a smokescreen
              You know ‘dom well’ just what I mean…

              To divert minds
              You use this space
              A hapless ploy
              For ‘saving face’!

              • dominic says:

                Well Let us face it, we all know it
                As a poet, you just blow it
                Your lines don’t scan Your metres off
                I can hear the public scoff.
                As for content, we’re off the charts
                And Blowing raspberries, lighting farts.
                Mustn’t really hope too much
                When a guru is your crutch!

                • satyadeva says:

                  To make such a fuss
                  About rhythm ‘n’ metre
                  I’m afraid, Dom lad, you appear as a Cheater.
                  Why stoop to criticise every letter?
                  For you yourself have hardly done better!
                  I suggest you return
                  To the Main Issue -
                  What? Did I hear you might need
                  A Tissue?!

                • dominic says:

                  The MAIN issue. Its not too late
                  First medication for your state.
                  A long analysis might help
                  Some added supplements with kelp.
                  A total detox, a year’s suspension
                  From all those awful books you mention.
                  No more chasing golden carrots
                  Or sitting at the feet of parrots.
                  Who needs other paid for saviours
                  With all their rotten bad behaviours?
                  Yes, there’s a bloke whos really awesome
                  Not jean de ruiter in a foursome.
                  He travels with you night and day
                  Never leaves wont go away.
                  He knows the story of your life
                  Better than your shrink or wife.
                  He doesnt say much doesnt blather
                  Who he is i think you gather.
                  Give yourself a welcome break
                  Step right in and heal that ache!

                • satyadeva says:

                  Your first 10 lines are none too kind
                  Though they’re just the Concoction
                  Of a prejudiced Mind.
                  By your last 10 lines
                  I have been diverted -
                  Yet you seem not to know
                  You preach to the Converted!
                  Still, you really should accept – you really, truly oughta:
                  No need to discard guru
                  With bathwater!

                • dominic says:

                  I like to bathe all on my own
                  As well as sitting on my throne.
                  You seem to want to share your bath
                  With strangers who dont talk or laugh.
                  Sure it’s your right to be so kinky
                  But shared bathwater yuck! that’s stinky.
                  Too much scum too much debris
                  Even some who come and pee.
                  I like to stretch out have some fun
                  Only room for just my bum.
                  I’ve got my very own radio station
                  Without commercial exploitation.
                  Making money off the back
                  of people with a sense of lack.
                  So I say there is no need
                  For that sucking vampire breed!

  130. shantam prem says:

    Madhua Dagmar
    Fratzen
    I don´t understand
    what you want to say
    I have no idea
    who are you,
    Man woman or transgender.
    Please, introduce yourself
    a little bit…
    I hope you understand
    My concern,
    otherwise I will type
    few hundred words more.
    Thanks God,
    typing on the website,
    cost no Paper, kill no trees!

    • dominic says:

      Uh-oh, seems such a sweet and innocent request.
      Don’t fall for it Madhu, it’s the old bait-and-switch.
      He’ll be after you quicker than you can say in-your-facebook!
      He never learns.

  131. Fresch says:

    Satyadeva, the Diva, am I being too easy on you or somebody else?
    Roman, feel free to choose: you must be doctor Phil having a crusade with Mormons or the movie “The Wannabe” with exception that this mob do not reject you. You are totally welcome. Just be aware you might loose your head.
    Frank is of course “Searching for the suger man”, the unknown mystic hiding in the old people’s home.
    Martyn is either Jay Lennon or at his best Conan O’Brien
    Madu’s movie is without the doubt “Chocolat “,The Lovers on the Bridge (Les Amants du Pont-Neuf ) and sometimes Emily of New Moon
    Arpana: My Fair Lady, professor educating others
    Parmartha: The Rum Diary, a movie about a reporter who found his voice
    Kavita is Mary Poppins, the book version, doing what ever she likes and sometimes looking after the children
    Satyadeva’s movie is Lars von Trier Nymphomaniac” with his personal leather whip
    Lokesh is “Dancing with wolves,” him being wild with the animals on-line
    Shantam: Do the Right Thing, next cross-cultural success on black, braun, yellow racism
    Ashok, an open book of “Men are from mars, Women are from Venus”.
    Rajneesh gang any movie in Bollywood
    Dominic, “Fanny and Alexandra”, Dominic being the little girl watching horrible rotten grownups not behaving as she wants in her dreams
    I am the “Braveheart” (by Lokesh), but I would more like “Wild at heart” because it’s a road movie and soon I will be on the road, endlich. So on the way to disappear from here too. That is my Sanyas news New Year promise. You know how they go. 5,4,3,2,1.

    • Arpana says:

      Next time your in my neck of the woods,
      it will be a pleasure to share food with
      you and yours.

      (>*-*>)

    • roman says:

      Mormons are cool. They wear fire proof underwear to protect themselves from the apocalypse.

    • frank says:

      fleschie,that’s a good game.
      SD, suitably up-to-date with “the arsenal stadium mystery” (1939)
      arpana “grumpy old men”1993
      the brian rajneesh gang..has to be “kumare”
      roman “the dead poets society” for sure
      madhu definitely “chocolat”, as you say
      parmartha conan doyle, has to be a who-done-it “a study in scarlet,maroon and orange”maybe
      lokesh …lets see, pearls of wisdom from a drug addled scotsman..with a lot of good music in the background.?…..has to be “trainspotting”
      dominic…got to be a carry-on movie “carry on up the chakras”?
      ashok..any episode of “father ted”…
      phoenix..the original “walter mitty” by the sound of it.
      shantams,is of course “passage to india” with him as doctor Aziz, and you, fleschie would make a wonderful miss quested,altho I can see you as “mary poppins”,too
      and ,like phoenix, I demand a bit of reverence…
      so, i`ve got to be keanu reeves in “the matrix” haven`t I?

      • dominic says:

        You’ve certainly dodged a lot of bullets Mr. Anderson or is that rogue Agent Smith… nah you’re a one-off.

        Looks like we might have a remake of the Bergman classic, “Fanny and Arpana”.
        “Next time your in my neck..
        it will be a pleasure to share..
        you..”

      • Lokesh says:

        Pretty good. As far as stimulants go I see it that sobreity is indeed the greatest form of intoxication. I am completely drug free as it happens. Crossed the line a wee bit on Hogmanny.
        Just finished Irvine Welsh’s latest, Skag Boys. I agree wih the Sunday Times, it is an incomparable masterpiece. Pure genius. Felt sad on finishing it, because I know there will never be another one.

    • Lokesh says:

      I enjoyed that.

  132. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    thank you moderator(s)

    i refere here to
    the kind of “sound of one hand clapping”happening in the midst or what do i say (around the time table at 6.1.2014 at around 1.12 am)
    right before the beginning of my outburst of despair

    wonder wonder wonder
    like a trojaner s (response-)happening

    being on it s way too

    at least i HAVE BEEN seeing that in the night when your posted into seemingly
    everybody (also mine)presence in the caravanserai happenings
    this “sound” appeared in big letters and these couple of hours later

    i wonder that i can t see it any more

    well
    anyway
    thank you for your patience expressed in that to me as a newcomer
    how you rightly reminded me to be
    and thank you for the sound of this kind too
    some sort of very GOLD- nugget -memory

    and i heard you

    appearing-disappearing-reappearing-redisappearing and so on and may be so forth
    seems to be part of the modules (used)
    is it ?

    i feel a need
    obviously
    to reassure you that i ve been seeing your lines !
    although they seemingly disappeared a few hours later…

    it s human conditioning
    is it ?
    and the promise to RESPECT as to my best capacities
    and also
    to go forward in struggling
    to take my pain not as important
    that
    sometimes
    in my life
    takes or better needs a little or a big break

    i have having had a little one by now

    the morning here came bright and sunny and more cold than yesterday s

    the dirty dishes are done
    late though
    and even later the other daily cleaning stuff will follow

    the inner list of ” to do s ”
    has its own rhythm

    the inner answers for issues on top of all this caravanserai chat
    has
    for everybody an individual rhythm too
    that s natural

    as far as i can SEE it

    so
    the music s probably
    going on and on and on

    as well as the silence underneath it

    loving embrace to moderators and moderator teams by now
    just now
    NOW

    madhu
    yours also very sincerely

  133. shantam prem says:

    Everybody has something to say
    who cares, it makes sense or not.
    Let we collect our words
    spoken or written
    and then publish through internet books..
    Call it one hand clapping or
    Tick tick tick on the key board!

  134. Fresch says:

    And Phoenix of course, your film would be Casablanca..

  135. Fresch says:

    And osho news is online “vanity fair” and anything, any possible way published by pune oif is the “this time the real bible ” on-line, mobile, youtube, paper, skype what ever- bible with the bill.

  136. Fresch says:

    Frank isn’t it lovely not to be able to loose anything? We can watch the cat fight of satyadeva and dominic..Which one do you think will win? I would say, they need some pasta for dinner before new year

    • frank says:

      flesch,
      who will win?
      as they say in football…
      its got 0-0 written all over it.
      or maybe its part of the world war one 100 year celebrations.
      two out-of date forces entrenched in the mud, firing off poisonous gases at each other.
      movie “oh what a lovely war”

    • dominic says:

      Is it just a moggy fleschie, I was going for a tiger?
      There simply aren’t enough ‘rites of passage’ for the modern male at his keyboard. This is as good as any.
      Celebrating WW1 100 years celebrations with a hundred years flame war. And when I go to Valhalla…
      “I leave you all my dream… No Retreat and No Surrender!”
      Dulce et decorum est pro Sannyas mori”.. Dad’s Army.
      “Out of date”… the cheek. I’m wearing out my iPad.

      -In SN Fields-
      “In SN fields the poppies blow
      Between the crosses, row on row,
      That mark our place; and in the sky
      The larks, still bravely singing, fly
      Scarce heard amid the guns below.

      We are the Dead. Short days ago
      We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
      Loved and were loved, and now we lie
      In SN fields.

      Take up our quarrel with the foe:
      To you from failing hands we throw
      The torch; be yours to hold it high.
      If ye break faith with us who die
      We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
      In SN fields.”

  137. Fresch says:

    We need the animal whisper – on-line. The one who knows.

  138. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    shantam prem (your “post” 6.1.2013 at 11.23 am)

    your adressing me
    reminds me of neighborhood heavy alcoholics who – in the beginning – here
    start up the day with serverel bottles of bavarian beer
    than stumble on the street to “gröhl” how it s called here
    especially targeting women like me
    (living next door )
    as stalker

    fucked up guys who are fucking up

    next steps are for those guys to shop more beer
    and meet people to “gröhl” and fucking up together

    so

    SHUT UP !
    shantam prem
    (may be a neighborhood male kretin to have found his way in this caravanserai)

    you NEED
    and DESERVE
    an ANSWER like this
    as well as the innoumerous “spezln” (that s how it is named here)

    who are on the roads
    WHEREEVER
    in the evenings they get -may be – a big fat “schnitzel”
    by
    MAMA
    (up to the age of…open end…and how long that lasts…)

    madhu

    • roman says:

      Madhu,
      Here’s to you.

      They could have done better but don’t mind
      They shouldn’t waste your precious time
      Don’t think twice, it’s all right ……

      But it is not all right for some who should definitely think twice.

  139. Fresch says:

    Frankie, I would like it to be “oh what a lovely war” and end. It’s anyway so.

  140. Fresch says:

    Madhu, that is a sad story..for you

    • roman says:

      Yes! And sad stories always make me cry.
      Here’s to those female tricksters ‘Pussy Riot’. Up yours Putin and Co
      As for the the Japanese whalers. The recent images made me sick.
      Send a spare dollar to the Sea Shepherd. They are cool folks living on zilch.

  141. shantam prem says:

    madhu dagmar frantzen
    I checked the facebook,
    it said, check the web results,
    I checked the web results,
    it brought me to sannyasnews.
    So the lady from München (Baveria)
    Is German your mother tounge,
    or you one of those foreigners
    like me;
    I am from India, are you from Czech republic!

    Any way, once there was one German
    girl, woman or auntie
    called Meera,
    she was writing as profound as your
    poetical prose is.
    Bitte, say my Liebe Grüss to her.

  142. phoenix says:

    Won’t write (much) more here.
    Satyadeva, thanks for the engaging response. I still think though that brief metaphor remains the best form of expression here for me.

    Thanks anyway to everybody for this thread. Those of you who see my facebook page may know that I am writing a book. I didn’t write anything of that though for two weeks. Today though, due to inspirations from here, I wrote over 900 words before 5am.

    I’m not sure I’ll show any of those book words here, even though they could be reworked to appear here, just as the last two threads I started here were extended versions of facebook posts.

    With this book, I still have the idea that inner integrity requires that I show it to nobody before finishing, as feedback seems more likely to confuse or derail than help…

  143. Ashok says:

    FATHER T.R.’ASHOK (TRIPELET SIBLING TO BROTHER ASHOK), TODAY SPEAKS FROM THE PULP-IT OF THE HOLY TRINITY CHAPEL IN CASHIEL-NUT TOWN, IRE-LAND

    Firstly Brethren I would like to inform you of the Brother Ashok’s sudden departure on a proselytizing mission abroad (S.E. As’ia), where he hopes to gain much spiritual practice & experience . May God bless him? Please be wary of the fact that the kind godly Brother Ashok, known more fondly by those close to him as Nick Nack Paddy Whack of ‘give the dog a bone’ singing fame, will return in all his righteous glory and God-fearing castigation soon.

    Now down to business – sadly and sorry to say – there has been EXCESSIVE BELL-PULLING & RINGING within earshot of our sacred Holy Friary grounds as of late. Brothers do not abuse your bells in this manner, but instead follow the sage expedience put forth by the Mother Superior Mary, in my own favourite hymn:

    “ I wake up to the sound of music
    Mother Mary comes to me
    Speaking words of wisdom
    Let it be….”
    (Beetle Brothers, ’69, Virgin Label)

    In addition, I would remind you of my Brother Ashok’s own wise counsel in these tight and tense situations:

    “TURN THE OTHER CHEEK!”,

    and thus maintain your sancti-monious dignity within the bounds of your own fair countenance’! ‘EYE FOR AN EYE’ Old Testament approaches do not prove bountiful in MY unholy experience.

    Moreover, ‘midst all this talk of soccer and boxing, doing the karmic rounds, I would like to make an appeal for FAIR PLAY FROM THE ALL THE PARTICIPANTS INVOLVED, and esp. of a soul sister of acting fame prev. known as the Marquess of Queens-bury. The latter playing from a position of unfair ‘vantage in her part-time vocation as an arbitrator of dubious credibility, frequently disallows worthy opposition goals, censors re-plays on the big screen and thus unscrupulously favours the home team.
    Nevertheless, the score currently still stands after completion of extra time at:
    Thailand Reserves 1 (Opposition own goal) – Shaftesburynutmeg Ravers 0

    Finally, Brothers and Sisters let us now sing the hymn ‘Fight the Good Fight with All Thy Might’, in an act of mutual contritrition……..

    “Fight the good fight with…..?
    THE BROTHER TEDDYBEAR RODGERS ASHOK, THUS CONCLUDED HIS SERMON.

  144. Fresch says:

    I just said good-bye for face book as well for a while (free from on-line for a while) and you know what was the last post I read: David Lynch is starting Twin peaks again. Lara Palmer’s last words were “I will come back in 25 years”. Female nightmare reappearing for the “dream” guy. Its pilot episode was first broadcast on April 8, 1990. I will so much look forward to it.

  145. Fresch says:

    So, to be specific, the movie for OIF is Twin Peaks,