The path through Encounter

One of the problems with the early ashram,  that general commentators found – even those favourable to it,  was around something that arguably had not so much to do with Osho.

From 1975 Osho certainly did encourage well known people like Paul Lowe, Michael Barnett and Lowen,  to take sannyas, and then introduce their own Esalen style encounter groups to the ashram. (Paul Lowe had come back from California to the UK with his wife Patricia Lowe (Poonam) in 1972 and started up an Esalen style outfit in Kilburn.)   Something we can say for sure Osho was only – and solely familiar with through his vociferous reading – and in no other way. A few like P.T. Mistleberger (his little mentioned book “The Three Dangerous Magi, Osho, Gurdjieff, Crowley is worthy of study) considered that the hybrid of encounter with eastern mysticism immediately put Osho’s work “on the cutting edge of transformational work”.

These groups could be pretty physical, though in the seventies all such groups, within Osho’s work or not,  with the same presuppositions around ego,  could also be pretty physical. For the record I do remember in Pune one, scuffed knees for many (in an encounter group I participated in but not much else) and  seeing from time to time a few black eyes, and bruises around. An ex-Irish nun had unintentionally broken a leg in one group in 1978.

What struck me as paradoxical was that Richard Price, one of the founders of Esalen (the at the time famous Growth centre in California, where Lowe had studied and worked) was a participant in the 1978 group where the leg was broken.  He cited this as his reason to leave the ashram and “drop” sannyas, though in fact he could not have been closer to understanding the Esalen presuppositions. Perhaps it was his excuse.  Shortly afterwards however the “no limits” type of encouragement in groups was stopped.

I don’t know what happened to Esalen, or whether it still exists, some here may know?  I also understand that the whole world of personal growth groups has become “benign” and non transformational,  but I don’t speak from any personal experience, but would be interested to know.

Looking back, I agree with Mistlberger that such groups could be alchemical, BUT unlike him I don’t think they should have been used as a universal panacea for all psychological ills – or for everyone. There were indeed westerners (as many Indians were,)  who should have been barred from such groups. Nonetheless many who passed through these groups did emerge lighter, more relaxed and clearly less neurotic,  and with that vitality which can only be described as a “proper engagement” with life, and a love of that life.  It was indeed for many a proper apprenticeship to being a “worker” in the ashram, and there was about the place at that time a lightness of touch and an alchemy that even “outsiders” were prepared to acknowledge.

Such “methods” of all the experiences that sannyas provided had in my view the least connection with Osho.  Osho adopted the old Hindu trick, just absorb whatever comes, and make it part of what is your overall umbrella. For sure Osho would never have come near doing such a group in his own apprenticeship. He even said that he would have avoided the ashram like a plague during his own development!
How see you it, voracious sannyasnewsers?


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218 Responses to Encounter

  1. Arpana says:


    I am convinced the primary purpose of the groups was to keep the troops busy, and to provide a forum for newbies to make connections and start relationships, in the widest sense
    Then of course the nice little earner guv aspect, but only after the first two were happening

    (I got involved in am dram theatre group some years before sannyas, and that played the same role in my life, in my world then, apart from the earner bit, and was just like doing groups at best. )

    • Parmartha says:

      everything that one does is to keep one busy! The whole sannyas work trip certainly was that and more than one administrator called such activity “the work group”. You see how things work out in ashrams, etc where people just “visit”, they stay for a short time, and then go away with the “experience”.
      It depends on how you feel about the view, which seemed to be Osho’s, that the longer one stayed around him and his Buddhafield, there was more chance of “growth”. Some of those who were physically close to Osho, and were part and parcel of ashram life then for years did not seem to catch his quintessential “non-doing” flavour – so the view that being around him and finding an excuse to do so was the most important thing in life could be questioned.

      • Arpana says:

        ”It depends on how you feel about the view, which seemed to be Osho’s, that the longer one stayed around him and his Buddhafield, there was more chance of “growth”.

        But where physically did you have to be, to be round him.
        Not a space and time thing I reckon.

        I’ve posted the quote here before when he said those in the front row cant swim, those in the back row can.
        Never heard him say the opposite of that one.
        To quote Diane Raje. Hahahahahaha.

      • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

        yes – to hang around in the buddha field was the most important thing parmartha – soaking up the meditative energy of the master magnified by those in tune with the master – it didnt matter what anyone was actually doing – just to be there was the thing – if one was open, relaxed, in a let go one simply dissolved into that energy and became it oneself

  2. shantam prem says:

    Without encounter, without friction there is no growth. from making curd till atomic energy or the latest lab in Switzerland about God particle, some kind of heat is required to generate the required results.
    Osho has used emotions till the boiling point.
    Here at sannyasnews we follow the tradition otherwise it will be like dozen others. They carry the name Osho but without salt, without chilly just vegan food.
    I remember one writer at Oshonews who has written about the neo rich gurus of India. It is a clear example of pot calling the kattle black. Without encounter, he can live on the moral high just like Indian priests and politicians, pretending to be better than the others, but others know quite well, , such people don´t even use toilet paper!
    They think right hand does not know what left is doing.

    • Parmartha says:

      as you are from the Indian sub continent originally, can you explain then, as here you are arguing for “groups” why Osho instructed Laxmi (or that was how it was always put) to stop any Indians, (other than those born in the West) doing groups, in particular “encounter”?
      How come they did not need the friction you talk about, one might argue they needed it more?
      Indians at the time who I was friends with in the ashram were “put out” by this and always wanted to get into the groups they were barred from.
      If you can answer this question then maybe your contribution could rise above the everyday.

      • Arpana says:

        Please do not ask questions that require the deployment of cognitive skills, Perceptive and discerning functions. The answers will always piss you off.

      • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

        i heard that osho told that indians and eastern peoples in general didnt need to do groups and that they were not for them
        the indians who were disappointed perhaps thought they were missing out on fun and sex – just guessing here

        encounter groups were all the rage at one time – i myself tried one – zencounter led by rajen in the leeds centre – the high from meeting a bunch of sannyasins and getting naked together wore off after two or three days – rajen did alright out of it though walking away with a big bundle of cash

        last week i came across an interview with him on youtube – the now old guy is still at it with his groups – its been his lifelong career
        i was surprised to hear his story of how he left osho – he heard osho had been arrested leaving the ranch on his plane – rajen/ lowen was shocked that a man who “stood his ground” as he said should “flee” and now his “trust” in osho was broken and he was “free”

        many therapists like him abandoned osho the moment he was in trouble – with osho out of the way they found an opportunity to advance themselves as gurus and make more money
        it goes to show the lack of love they had for their master – that when he is in trouble they turn their backs, take advantage of sannyasins and set themselves up in his place

        i attended teerthas event in london that summer – hundreds of sannyasins were there – teertha didnt mention bhagwan once the whole evening and seemed to be declaring himself the master now
        poonam organised it for him and he went home with a big wad of cash from those trusting sannyasins who were missing osho and heartbroken seeing him jailed and abused

        • Parmartha says:

          The big therapists, except for Veeresh as I remember all “left” Osho after the Ranch collapsed in 1985. Thanks for the story about Rajen, DR. I can remember how in groups people used to hang on his every word, yet this “reason” why he left shows almost no insight or cognitive ability.

        • dominic says:

          This advances and regurgitates rajneesh’s loathing of the therapriests and their groups. I have no real axe to grind for them either way. They were obviously part of Osho’s work, and the intelligent blend of east and west that drew many seekers. Sure many got on their high horse but it was part of the culture around them.
          You can spin anything whichever way you want. Leaving Osho at the time of the ranch and losing trust seems to me a pretty reasonable decision with all the information to come to light. You can do a complete whitewash, because it suits the agenda and belief in a supreme being, an infallible master, but it’s childish and delusional.
          I think several therapists did behave as mini-gurus, but this was also being role modelled, picked up and reinforced round the ashram. An authoritarian charismatic style. As groups evolved and got bigger the tendency increased.
          Also power corrupts and just seems to attract personalities that need adulation and control.
          There are as many different ways of doing therapy as there are facilitators and different styles and schools.
          Sannyas therapy had it’s own brand of conditioning for better or worse. Mostly I enjoyed it at the time, but it could lend itself to abuse and power trips, as in any hierarchical situation. There weren’t any systems in place to guard against it, that i can think of. Just as Osho never had anyone to call him out, when he needed it.
          Many smaller group formats morphed into Lgats (large group awareness trainings, est, landmark etc) both within and without sannyas. These were cashcows, (pack em rack em and crack em), and multiplied peer pressure, conformity, charismatic leadership etc.
          I always understood it was osho’s decision to keep indians and asians from participating in groups, and I’m glad he did. Though I think this has been relaxed now.
          As bv said and applies today, would be better if indian males empowered their own women and stopped chasing stupid insecure white meat, or at least if it was a level playing field.
          When i was in poona 2, the white robe, the meditations, osho books, were all compulsory group activities for the most part, not a late appendage before osho died. Which was a shame because no sooner had you got back from a long lunch break than you had to break for kundalini etc. So a training day was short and not really good value for money.
          Perhaps if Osho had done a few groups himself, got some feedback, some of the interpersonal mess generated might have been ameliorated. Perhaps what all gurus ought to do in an ideal world. Get off their pedestal and open themselves for a reality check.

          • bodhi vartan says:

            >> Perhaps what all gurus ought to do in an ideal world. Get off their pedestal and open themselves for a reality check

            The guru paradigm is long dead gone. Look at how much stick poor Swami R is getting – or anyone else will get if they dare to poke their head above the parapet. This is the information age and the information coming out of Mexico is not very original, to say the least. Today in all areas and including sannyas, the collective will always have more information than any individual. Today there is no pedestal, only a chopping block. I would have loved to see Osho in jeans and a machine-gun, or is that too much information for the devout?

            • dominic says:

              “The guru paradigm is long dead gone”.
              I’d like to think so bv. Certainly things have shifted. Though watching the kumbh mela on tv last night you wouldn’t know it. In the last years so many gurus and traditions have been exposed with their pants down. But the roots of authoritarianism, blind belief, self-delusion and the search for certainty and belonging run deep. The internet is a powerful tool for uncovering the rot behind the spin, spiritual or otherwise. But how many people use it or want to know what might upset a considerable emotional investment. Swami R gets stick here but his hubris is unassailable, if he’s not open. As long as he’s got an audience, a band of dependent simpletons around him, he’ll go on.
              As soon as someone gets on a pedestal, the projections fly as in kumare. But yeah would have been fun to see osho or any of the biggies,
              unfolding in the age of twitter.
              I’d also like to kick the myth of enlightenment into touch too!

            • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

              yes we have a lot of information today
              individual transformation doesnt have any relation to knowledge or information

              your knowledge is a hindrance rather than of some use on the path, which requires rather a humility and an innocence far removed from the games of the mind

              your little fantasy about osho in jeans with a machine gun shows your desire to bring him down to your own ignorant level of being vartan, and shows that you are not available to his energy or ready for any transformation

              buddhas who have declared themselves and tried to help humanity transform have always got “stick”- thats nothing new or confined to rajneesh only – they have all experienced this through the ages – the only way to avoid it is to do nothing and say nothing publically which is not of much help to anyone

              • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

                and for dominic -
                saying enlightenment is a myth is only to say you are ignorant of enlightenment and have experienced nothing – you have no idea what is enlightenment – its no myth i can assure you – its a death and rebirth – an explosion of energy that is very real – more real than anything an individual has ever known till then – which have been the fearful dreams of a robotic, miserable, sleeping condition that the vast majority of humanity takes as reality

                as you have no interest in transformation or osho as a master dominic and say his enlightenment is a myth its clear you are not oshos sannyasin – why are you commenting here then ? trying to convert oshos people to your own sick and “clever ” ignorance ?

                • Arpana says:

                  ”and for dominic -
                  saying enlightenment is a myth is only to say you are ignorant of enlightenment and have experienced nothing”

                  Could of course mean he’s actually enlightened. Your’e not so how can you tell?

                • dominic says:

                  The myth of enlightenment and enlightenment is a myth are two different propositions.
                  But sure is a golden carrot to keep true believers like yourself hooked.
                  Isn’t there a quote from osho somewhere reported that he wished he could stop pretending?
                  You are a broken record.
                  All you ever really try to do is shame people as a fundamentalist does when in disagreement. “If you don’t believe what i believe your soul is eternally damned and you go to hell.”
                  I wonder what your background was, i guess you must have got shamed a lot yourself and probably had a rageaholic father.
                  The myth of enlightenment for me means that i don’t think gurus live in a permanent state of oneness, beyond ego all the time without self-centred interests.
                  Though it’s been claimed I’ve never seen it.
                  I think we’re all works in progress.
                  Maybe you’ve had some expanded experiences, satoris even, but seems you’re claiming enlightenment now.
                  If this is the face of enlightenment we’re in big trouble!

              • bodhi vartan says:

                I only told you half the story. Of course information cannot transform but the only way I would know whether you have transformed or not is from the information that is coming out of you. The physical medium (the flesh) is an information generating organ. Parroting Osho means you have no new information to impart. That might work in mexico but round here until you can convert your experience into new information it’s all just bla, bla.

                You say that my knowledge is a hindrance. A hindrance to what? Being poor of pocket and mind?

                To get to other half of the story. Osho loved to dress silly …

                Osho – The Fun Loving Buddha

                • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

                  your knowledge is a hindrance to individual transformation vartan

                  and how is information about enlightenment going to be new?
                  lies may be new but the truth is always going to remain as it is

                  great video – i havent seen these clips before

                • satyadeva says:

                  Has it occurred to you that Vartan might well have been talking about new ways, methods, paths, perspecives etc., which have been and are multiple, are they not, rather than new information, new descriptions of ‘enlightenment’?

                  Anyway, he’ll no doubt respond himself….

                • bodhi vartan says:

                  dhyanraj says:
                  >> lies may be new but the truth is always going to remain as it is

                  The new definition of truth is “that which works”. What worked yesterday may not, WILL NOT work today. As others have said, today’s Joe-public is more knowledgeable than you guys ever were, and will not fall for the tricks you fell for. Can you handle the truth?

                • satyadeva says:

                  Yes, but you and DR are talking about different things, one might even say different octaves of the term:

                  DR’s clearly a world authority on The Truth, whereas you’re talking about the truth. At least, that’s how it appears.

                  He’s means, you know, ‘God’, Life-with-a-capital-L, the Divine, Reality-with-a-capital-R,
                  that sort of er, ‘thing’ (which he knows All about, of course), while your truth concerns perspectives, paths, methods etc. – doesn’t it?

                  Sort of Ultimate Truth and relative truth?

                  (PS: By the way, I am the ‘God of Truth’, you know – it says so on my sannyas certificate).

            • dominic says:

              Parrot…robot…genetically engineered, or simply brainwashed.
              “The individual can be enlightened”
              How do you know that?
              “All enlightened Masters were crucified…”
              How do you know that?
              The answer is always the same. “Because supreme leader said so.”
              Are you from north korea, minnie mouse?

            • satyadeva says:

              Word-perfect, mini.

              Well copied!

  3. Prem Martyn says:

    Dear Parmartha,
    Why don’t you *ç %** , oh with your ‘ “*&!! £ç ‘ self and all that %ç*”§§ of yours. You really should just ç%&/* , and another thing, isn’t it about time after 40 years that you stopped (¨é=?’* with every word you utter that just makes me wanna *ç”&// and tell you to go stick it up your (£èèç*”+/( you little ££$$?=)(/&**.

    Tea and cakes wil be served at the interval. In the meantime help yourself to some kleenex in the corner, on this, SN’s Encounter nostalgia night.

    By the way Lokesh..go and.&/%ç-late in your porridge, ha hahahahaha.

  4. Dhanyam says:

    Parmartha if you want to know about Esalen just Google and you will find
    out it is alive and well.

  5. Lokesh says:

    I would really like to comment on the Encounter thread, but cannot for fear of that bully, Arpana, getting on my case for speaking about Poona One and writng more than he does. I feel quite traumatised by the whole thing and wonder if any of my fellow commentators would care to suggest a therapy group that might speed up the healing process. Thank you and a virtual hour long hug outside of Krishna House.

  6. shantam prem says:

    What I was thinking the other day, your question comes comes closer to that. In few minutes I have to go for work(Yes, I work too from time to time. 15 hours in a week), one thing I can say sure, Osho has spoken in such simple English and Hindi, anybody after primary school can claim to understand.
    But to understand the context, one needs to have a bit of some knowledge about psychology, difference in Individual and collective minds, cultural influence, also religious and socio economic position of the country.
    I find it quite a tragedy that western seekers initiated by Osho carry Indian names, they have spend much time in Pune too but have never built any meaningful connection with the country neither have shown any interest to see from where Osho come from.
    What I am saying is not my projection, reality is visible in black and white. After the collapse of Ashram, i have not seen any top till bottom level therapists going in any Indian city and offering their expertise?
    All are crazy about China, Japan, Uzbekistan. Why?
    They will even go to Bosnia Herzegovina but not Chandigarh, Bhopal Calcutta?
    I hope it will answer some part of your question and may be my “white brothers and sisters with Sanskrit names” can contemplate, why China is more closer than India?

    • Lokesh says:

      Shantam, you might take ino consideration the fact that India is, in general, a filthy dump. Oh yes, we’ve all heard about Buddha’s footsteps, it’s just that one has to wade through sewage to find them. If the lotus does indeed grow out of the mud of human existance India would be overflowing with enlightened people. Instead Delhi has become rape capital of the world.

      • bodhi vartan says:

        Shantam, apart from agreeing with Lokesh … I would like to add that Osho himself gave up on Indians because they would nod and come back a week later and nod again but do nothing, ever. Dare I say just like you, or would that be considered an encounter.

        I reckon that Indian women could be very powerful on the Indian sannyas scene if you lot supported then instead of chasing stupid and insecure white meat.

  7. bodhi vartan says:

    As far as encounter per se is concerned I cannot see it coming back anytime soon in the forefront of the Osho world. But I do like psychodrama, and as Arpana said above, even at the level of a theatre group it can offer immense and lasting insights.

    These days I will only support Osho’s meditations because I feel that is what Osho was all about and somehow they were pushed to the side for reasons I cannot be bothered to go into. Also, with just the meditations there is less chance for personal space abuse.

    • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

      oshos meditations are the real thing that can transform energies as satyadeva shared with us about dynamic the other day – they have been neglected because therapists dont make money out of them, they are simple and no need for the therapist

      shortly before osho left his body he left laotsu house and came to see what was happening in his name in the multiversity plaza – shocked at what he found there he immediately cancelled all groups and therapy trainings on offer and said they were just games for people to play of no real value in themselves – from then on he said all groups should last no longer than three days and would include dynamic and kundalini meditation and white robe meeting every day as part of the group, and that group participants would be given one of his books as required reading

      • satyadeva says:

        While for me it’s true on the whole that meditation of one sort or another has done me more good than ‘encounter’-type therapy groups or (with one or two exceptions) individual therapists, I should add, however, that for me dynamic meditation lost its transformative power after around 2-plus years, also that for a few years other Osho meditations were of limited help as well, indeed there came a time when they actually seemed to hinder my overall body/mind well-being.

        Indeed, for about 6 years, starting 3 years after I began dynamic, my main practice was Maharishi’s TM (which I’d originally taken up aged 20, 5 years before ‘Bhagwan’ came along), supplemented by active Osho meditations, which I greatly enjoyed but which, in a way, I could sort of ‘take or leave’.

        It might be of interest that when I once ‘confessed’ to ‘Bhagwan’ that I’d started TM again, he responded positively, saying it was fine, no problem at all – despite having always rubbished it in discourses. (I seem to recall he also used to denigrate yoga, yet I saw him in a darshan encouraging someone to go ahead and train as a yoga teacher, saying it was very good for the body. Similarly, he would rail against schools and teachers, yet I was encouraged to go down that route as it was “very good”).

        Everyone has to find their own way and from personal experience I absolutely disagree with any rigid ideas of what ‘should’ or ‘should not’ be deemed ‘correct’ or ‘desirable’, whatever label one likes to place on oneself or ‘communal flag’ one is supposedly giving allegiance to.

        That’s why I am sceptical about ‘psycho-spiritual dogmatism’, whatever its source. It’s a case of ‘one size simply doesn’t fit all’! And I strongly suspect most of the regular contributors to this estimable organ – that’s SN, btw – are of a similar tendency.

        • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

          meditation techniques are not going to be usefull forever – once they have done their work there is no need for them – after all they are only techniques – not meditation itself – a sannyasin can come to an understanding where whatsoever he does can be done in a meditative space – or not as he chooses – the technique is nothing to be valued in itself

          • satyadeva says:

            Quite so, DR.

            Although pointing that out is like the old saying, ‘carrying coals to Newcastle’….

            • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

              yes satyadeva – now you are finding it more difficult and yet still manage to put out some kind of negative spin

              in fact i agree with you when you say -
              “Everyone has to find their own way and from personal experience I absolutely disagree with any rigid ideas of what ‘should’ or ‘should not’ be deemed ‘correct’ or ‘desirable’, whatever label one likes to place on oneself or ‘communal flag’ one is supposedly giving allegiance to.
              That’s why I am sceptical about ‘psycho-spiritual dogmatism’, whatever its source. It’s a case of ‘one size simply doesn’t fit all’!”

              • satyadeva says:

                So if you agree, what’s the problem?

                Perhaps it’s you wanting to stress the negative?

                Btw, I’m not aware of “finding it more difficult” at all. That’s your imagination, DR, which, it seems, you’d rather prefer to believe.

                Indeed, it wouldn’t be a surprise if you believe you’re ‘making spiritual progress’ when the reality might be somewhat different. That’s a measure of how you’ve presented yourself here, by the way. And yes, I know this is a limited medium, only words passing through cyberspace, sort of one-dimensional, but there it is, that’s my impression.

                • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

                  of course you are right satyadeva – negativity is easy for you not difficult at all –
                  its the oldest trick to make oneself appear wise to oneself and others that whatever people say it is rubbished

                • satyadeva says:

                  Precisely, DR.

                  That’s a fair portrait of how you come across at SN, yes indeed, sir.

                • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

                  i am responding to yours and others continual negativity and misunderstanding satyadeva –
                  it is true though that one tends to become like who one is fighting –
                  but its fun and amusement for all concerned to enjoy the punch and judy encounter show

                • satyadeva says:

                  “it is true though that one tends to become like who one is fighting!”

                  If this is true of you, I ask again, what have you gained in all these years of being in close proximity to masters, in communes, ashrams and so on? What?

                  And why has Swami R chosen you or allows you to be his chief online pr man?

                  I mean, for Christ’s er, I mean Osho’s, er, sorry, Swami R’s sake!

                • satyadeva says:

                  “but its fun and amusement for all concerned to enjoy the punch and judy encounter show”

                  Well, perhaps we’d better pass the hat around after future er ‘shows’, then, DR?

                  “Enough for today” though, I reckon.

        • bodhi vartan says:

          dhyanraj says:
          >> came to see what was happening in his name in the multiversity plaza

          Thanks for the details around that event plus all the rest. I also feel that 3 day meditation camps should be the max. I know in Nepal they hold nine day ones but them are them.

          thanks for the rundown of your meditation experiences. You see in the olden days, therapy was to lead to meditation, and meditation to lead to workship … today, meditation upon mediatation upon meditation, and for what? If you ask me the whole purpose of meditation should be to lead to creativity. The active meditations if done intensely, for no longer than six months, and their purpose should always be to direct towards the passive ones like Vipassana and Zazen. On the final rung everything can be an upaya. Even writing on SN.

          • Arpana says:

            You know BV.
            We are all different.

            Some people might need to do Dynamic for a year, and vippassana for a month, and the reverse. etc. etc. and whatever variation or mix is possible.

            Some of us are introvert. Some extrovert.

            I meditated my ass off during the mala and red clothes time and at the ashram and worked and did groups and after. took up painting at forty, went to art school, and got a BA and MA, started a PhD in art, and still paint every day and write everyday.
            I spend most of my time alone by choice. Still use various forms of meditation intermittently

            Before I took sannyas I was a wildly outgoing political activist and party guy.

            • satyadeva says:

              I agree with the general gist of this, Arpana, ie that everyone’s process is different and to try to fit all into one basket, as it were, is not only misguided, it can also even be dangerous.

              Why, ‘Bhagwan’ even advised me not to enter into a simple group exercise he was suggesting to all and sundry at the time, telling me to simply do it alone, if I wanted to do it.

              Then there’s the instance where, contrary to all he publically stated, he ok’d me taking up TM again while in Poona.

              • Arpana says:

                He’s as contradictory about mantras as everything else isn’t he.

                In the Darshan dairies he actively gives people mantras to use occasionally.
                Ya Malik being is one I recall.

                He said he was against mantra use and then proceeds to devote five series of discources, over five months, during which he talked about a mantra a month, and mentions said mantra regularly throughout every discourse daily.

                After a few thousand discourses looking to him for clear cut yes’s and nos becomes pointless and yah just gotta get on with it, and live with the consequences of the decisions made or not, and trust, which he always did for me, he would say something relevant at the relevant time.

              • bodhi vartan says:

                satyadeva says:
                >> I agree with the general gist of this, Arpana, ie that everyone’s process is different and to try to fit all into one basket, as it were, is not only misguided, it can also even be dangerous.

                Thanks everybody. I am not commenting but everything is being taken in.

                You must admit there is a bit of fuzzy science going on. Next year, once the situation settles I’ll try a do some blind tests. My current feeling is that much depends on the expectations of the practitioner and/or the reason for practicing in the first place.

          • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

            vartan the 3 day rule was for therapy groups not for meditation camps – which were for ten days i think – or as long as you wanted really the meditations were running everday in the ashram

  8. dominic says:

    The human potential movement (potential to be human) was part of the Cashram’s Moneyfesto.
    ‘If you see a cash cow, milk it until the cows come home’.
    I remember that momma’s boy, ‘dick’ price running off to his namby pamby wimp’s creche – Wussalen.
    Back in the day, it was a real dude’s psych ops.
    Apart from Neo-encounter torture, there was bioenergetic flagellation, iron maiden rebirthing, chamber of past-life Auras, the primal rack (for extended growth), Marathon head crushing, and zen tickling.
    All followed up by free, sects parties. Hosted by dj Lokesh, (when he was on downtime from his one to one’s).
    And yeah a face-off with an ex-irish nun from the magdalene laundries, could get pretty nasty, especially after some black velvet.
    Groupies today huh, don’t know they’re born.

  9. Anand Newman says:

    I met some long time sannyasins from the west who are very contended and have nice memories all the way from Poona one days. When asked about the encounter groups of those days “ we don’t know why we did it, but we did it anyway. Some of them doesn’t make much sense now” they say. But no complains.

    May be Osho ( and his team that time) himself was learning as far as working with Sannyasins from the west he being from east.

    Why Sannyasins from India were not allowed into the encounter group? Because they were different obviously. (now a days, its million dollar industry in Multi national companies to teach people from east about west and vice versa). People from West who came to seek after spending so much money, life energy and time were more sincere than the home team. Back then there was lot of cultural gap compared to today. But now or in near future, there is going to be lot of cultural fusion happening. Also, unfortunately, even Buddhism could not sustain in India where as it was widely adopted in neighboring countries. Comparatively, “Osho” is much better received in this post feudal/imperial modern society. I wish it gets even better.

    I wish there is more focus on contemporary and forward looking topics for discussion in this forum rather than the threads that kind of support the aspect of “ biting the finger pointing to the moon”. Like Kashmiri pandits who have become minority/refugees in their own country India, people who wants to talk good about Osho have become minority in this forum.

    • Parmartha says:

      Not so simple, Newman.
      We are all human beings, and that is the most important thing by a million miles. In fact there are no Indians, or Americans or British, or German in my book. I see the Indians being excluded from the groups (as I believe they still are) as something to do with Laxmi’s thinking, not Osho’s. She tried sex only once in her life, and said it was not for her…. says something about her I would say…
      You have misunderstood this string if you see it as people biting the finger that points to the moon. Being close to a Master means that sometimes you wrestle with him…

      • dominic says:

        I think you’re out on a limb with that one Parmartha. Consensus seems to be it came from the horse’s mouth for very good reasons such as the indian male sexual feeding frenzy that would have resulted. Note, few indian women come to groups.
        The current liberal thinking (neo-marxist fascism I call it) that has entered the mainstream, is how we’re all one, la la la. So we all have to respect each cultures’ bullshit.
        Race and culture have been conflated, so that if you criticize one you criticize the other. Funny how easily we can talk about the characteristics of different breeds of dog or animals without being called animalist.
        Culture and conditioning makes groups of people behave very differently. Not talking about the regional differences between most post classical enlightenment cultures, but the much deeper clashes that we see all around today.
        So in our ‘tolerance’ in the west, we embrace intolerant cultures and ideologies, that seek to dominate. Madness!

        • Parmartha says:

          I was once in a Poona group with a load of Japanese and German people. It would not have been my choice as I was “conditioned” by my family who lost family members in the second world war to “hate” them. However I found it of great value. Palestinians and Jews, Kurds and Turks, Serbs and Croats – bring Paul Lowe out of retirement, and send them into a group rather than rich nations giving them tanks and guns to kill each other.
          I dont agree that “Indians” could not benefit from some of the groups I did in Pune, I remember things like the Tao group and Centering Group, etc. Indians could have easily enjoyed and participated in those if they were genuine seekers.
          Yes Dom, I am out on a limb about what Osho told any and all of his secretaries. He was a very lazy guy, perhaps the laziest he said of himself in the whole world. I know lazy guys from other walks of life, they just delegate and delegate and delegate….
          For me genuine seekers are all one, whether they are Japanese, Indian or German or English, or anyone else.

          • bodhi vartan says:

            To my soul, a person’s skin or origin, make no difference at all; But I can see different responses coming from different cultures. For example, this forum with its current content could never exist or function in India. And that is an extreme example, there are very many subtle differences.

            P, a few days ago you were looking for elements which might have influenced Osho and to that I will use one word, Anglospherics. The colonised, just by the fact that they have been colonised, they learn the rudiments of colonisation, and then can go forth and colonise themselves. The team-building spirit (science?) of the British is second to none and for a reason … and it’s worth looking into those elements, rather than Mahavira or Bodhidharma.

  10. Parmartha says:

    The old Zen Masters who I respect certainly used to “encounter” their disciples, so I cant just consider the tradition as a fashion that has passed. As Vartan intimates the problem with encounter and similar groups is that it releases the bully and abuse happens. But this is not to say that in skilled and loving hands, such as a genuine master, or even a genuine disciple, that cannot be avoided.

    • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

      in the buddha field of a master – almost anything can be used as a way of transformation – it works because the masters is present there and his presence is the transformative magic –
      when the master is absent nothing works really –
      even meditation techniques become useless really if there is no connection with the master – you can do them but unless you have a natural ability to to dissolve oneself they will not work – just they become another way for people to struggle against themselves and waste their energy in futile action

      • satyadeva says:

        Sounds rather too much like an ultimately dangerously self-defeating dependency on the Master’s physical presence, DR.

        • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

          well satyadeva – i know what i have experienced for myself in the presence of both osho and of rajneesh –
          theres nothing dangerous about it unless you consider losing your head and dissolving into energy and no mind dangerous –
          thats what looks dangerous to those who have no real interest in transformation other than as a pose and cling to their egoic personal identities, fighting with those who might help them lose themselves

          • satyadeva says:

            The simple point I’m making, DR, is the danger of becoming over-dependent on a master or a teacher, so that you can not stand on your own feet when they’re no longer around.

            How many years have you been around Swami R?

            And, to approach ‘encounter’ mode:
            Quite seriously, what good has it actually done you? Because how you’ve come across so far I see little evidence of any, frankly.

            • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

              the love between a master and a disciple you paint as “dangerous dependancy”

              the whole idea of independance is completely false – no one is or can ever be independant – we are all totally dependant or interdependant on all that surrounds us – if the sun doesnt rise tomorrow you will see exactly how independant you are

              - and if there is a love and synchronicity between a master and a disciple it continues when they are no longer around physically – and let me tell you that for those who love osho he is still around – his body died but he is still here in his light body bound to earth by the love of his devotees, as is gautam buddha and many other masters who lived on the earth once as humans

              • satyadeva says:

                You’re basically a ‘devotee’, the vast majority of westerners – and certainly of men – are not suited to approaching Truth, the Divine, God (whatever you want to call it) in such a fashion. This you don’t appear to understand at all.

                Go your way – but realise that you’re never going to get through to people by taking such a confrontational, self-important stance – whatever you feel are the rights and wrongs of the matter.

                You’ve done very little here except to get people lined up against you. You clearly think that reflects on them , but I’m telling you it reflects on YOU, sir.

                You talk the talk, but your ‘walk’ here at SN negates almost everything you claim to be and to hold dear. Just like any old fundamentalist bigot.

                I ask you, seriously, why do you bother?

              • satyadeva says:

                Ok, DR, no argument with that, it has the ring of truth (but what would I know?).

                But the question remains:
                How come you ‘know’ all that esoteric stuff, presumably in your day-to-day living experience, yet present yourself here as a thoroughly, shall we say, ‘unattractive’ sort of character – self-righteous, self-important, mostly humourless, spiritually ‘superior’, chronically angry, indignant, laughably easy to ‘wind up’ etc. etc?

                All that ‘person-al’ stuff, ie of the person that you are, seems very much alive and kicking, thriving even, in this environment, doesn’t it? It doesn’t appear to be existentially informed by what you say you know, which consequently would appear to be merely ‘mental’ .

                You see, whether or not my impression is true – and we know this medium is flawed – that’s how you appear, as a sort of cartoon caricature: claiming this, claiming that, yet actually being, in our limited experience of you on here, quite the reverse. In other words, swimming in a sea of self-delusion.

                And that’s why I say you’ve failed and continue to fail every day here.

                Can you see the absurdity of it all? Of the ridiculousness of your online persona?

          • satyadeva says:

            DR, you say:
            “thats what looks dangerous to those who have no real interest in transformation other than as a pose and cling to their egoic personal identities, fighting with those who might help them lose themselves”

            It strikes me that your own ‘egoic personal identity’ has been having something of a ‘field day’ here at SN, angrily attacking, righteously defending, imagining various slights, making self-importantly portentous statements, symptoms of guru-itis flaring up on a regular basis and so on…You seem to relish a bit of a struggle yourself, don’t you?

            ‘Losing your head’, ‘going into no mind’?

            Er, yes, DR, quite….

            • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

              obviously satyadeva mind is going to be used when commenting here – and yes you are right – ego has to be used for survival in this world full of fools and wolves – without it an individual would be simply torn to pieces or enslaved –
              but to know that ego is not really who you are is another matter -
              its a necessary tool as is the mind – and to use it to support the buddhas when wolves seek to harm them is preferable than using it to destroy what is beautiful, good and true i would say

              • satyadeva says:

                But I’m trying to get you to see that what you take to be ‘defending the buddhas’ is in fact having the opposite effect to your intention!

                You don’t successfully “support” a buddha by alienating all and sundry – which is exactly a key error that Sheela committed in America, with her appalling so-called ‘pr’ strategy. If Osho advised and supported that ill-fated effort of hers then he was misguided. Same goes for Swami R, if he has instructed and is encouraging you to do likewise at this place.

                You might even think that ‘any publicity is good publicity’, but I beg to differ.

                You might be doing great with Swami R, it might well be perfect for you (how would I ever know?) but unless you and others can do better than just mouth off on here as if you know it all and everyone else not in your camp is a misguided or malignant fool then there’s no hope whatever of your convincing anyone.

                Your sincerity isn’t in doubt, of course. But any fool can be sincere. Ultimately, what convinces, especially in this field (for God’s sake!) is quality of being. And up to now, you’ve missed the mark.

    • bodhi vartan says:

      Encounter between individuals (no matter what their station) will always exist. I was talking about Encounter Groups which is different.

      • Arpana says:

        You mean conflict when you say encounter I surmise.
        Useful, imo, to make a distinction between friction and conflict.

        Friction can be enlivening, whereas outright conflict is a bummer, although, a lot of people love conflict.
        (You know who you are. )

    • dominic says:

      I think we have romanticized the zen tradition here in the west, parmartha. There is a lot of S & M in it. It is bound up with the japanese psyche and the samurai warrior mentality. It has generated a lot of abuse and people falsely colluding with it, believing it was ‘good’ for them and spiritually advancing them towards the golden carrot. The recent case of leonard cohen’s teacher sasaki (and ramesh balsekar) make an excellent case study, of how even very intelligent people are suckered into the deceptive underbelly of many autocratic oneness teachings and traditions.

  11. shantam prem says:

    If a person is gay and seeks God, who am I to judge him, says Pope

    This is called pragmatism. Making religion contemporary.

    Are you or your subordinates reading me posts, Mr. Chairman!
    I am sure, Osho´s great spirtitual movement can stand the onslaught of time if the chairman says in the white robe gathering, ” If you guys want to sing devotional songs and celebrate Osho Birthday, who the fuck I am to object. Let us bring the fire back!

    (This is one aspect of encounter, when a drop falls on the rock)

  12. dominic says:

    God I’d just love to surrender to some fanatical puritanical tyrannical theatrical piratical Dadaji, and live in a drooling infant state of total whacked out dependency, muttering gaga and dada all day long, in some mantra man boo!dah field with a bunch of other lost orphaned toddlers…….
    But I just can’t get my head that far up my ass. Please advise.

  13. Lokesh says:

    Having participated in most of Poona One’s therapy groups I can only say that they were very good for me. It was kind of like cleaning out the basement in order to build a sound foundation for meditation proper to happen. If the basement is left full of shit no matter how strong a building you build on top of it it will eventually crumble and fall.
    It was sound common sense that Osho did not allow Indian sannyasins to participate in the groups because basically they were not ready for it. Massively repressed on a sexual level, how could they have been let loose in a room full of naked westerners where the only rule of thumb that applied, in the case of Teertha’s Encounter group, was anything goes? Even for Osho it was too much of a Pandora’s box. So Osho left the Indians to their Bhakti yoga, which for the most part he probably chuckled about in the privacy of his air-conditioned cell. It was a double edged sword in many respects. A good example would be someone like Dhyanrage who talks about enlightenment as if he knows his subject matter, but scratch the surface and the rage erupts when confronted by anyone who does not see eye to eye. Or Shantam, who constantly uses sexual innuendo in his writing…a sign of his repressed sexuality. You can stuff your shit down, but like like flowers left in the dark they just grow and the repressed nature of one’s psyche bubbles up to yhe light any chance you get. Now Shantam is refrering to homosexuality. For all he knows about that part of his nature he could very well be a closet gay. I kissed guys in groups and having explored that side of life I knew for sure I was pure hetro. But if you haven’t explored it how do you know it is not for you?…and so it goes right down the line.
    Another aspect of learning a bit of psycho babble that both eastern and western disciples are guilty of is that it can form attitudes. Important here to remember how an attitude is formed. You get hold of an idea and repeat it so often it becomes an unconscious pattern that you are completely unaware of. Hence we have patterns wherein if someone says something that doesn’t fit in your movie it’s ‘all a reflection’. Or the attitude of having everything of a psychological nature out on the kitchen table. I paid for this with my son, who grew up in his formative years in an extremely emotionally expressive environment, He had no social limits as far as expression of his emotions went at home. By the time he was in his late thirties he was stilling playing full on encounter every time he saw mum and dad, who were by then out of such a crazy loop and had reached a more mature way of dealing with serious emotional issues. For example, if you have really serious shit coming up take it to a good therapist .
    I could say much more on this subject because I really did encounter to the max, but right now I’m going two kilometres out into the sea with my swimming group. The sea is a great place for letting go of your emotions….so massive it just rolls with the punches or absorbs pure love like a sponge. Lokesh jumped into the Med, splash!

    • dominic says:

      One of the conditionings or myths around old style encounter was that by expressing your feelings at someone like anger, that you were being real or truthful, which led to ‘acting out’ or ‘dumping’ in life, with negative results. A simple but false equation that catharsis by itself led to healing or insight.
      The raw power of it was very liberating in a safe context, but could also become abusive and lacking in personal responsibility and boundaries.
      There are many layers to the onion. On top feelings of rage may be covering up much quieter and more vulnerable feelings of helplessness, loneliness. And sexuality, the need for love.
      The weekend group format, the predominant sannyas one, didn’t allow for much one to one or ongoing work, for sustained or in depth change.
      It was more wham bam thank you ma’am.
      But it was fun and made most non-sannyas groups appear very tame and problem-oriented by comparison.
      I still think the relatively small open type group, where anything can happen, an exciting growthful format. But the groups shouldn’t be too large and ‘safely’ run.
      What I did find in Poona was that after therapy groups, the energy moved more towards creativity – theatre, dance, singing etc and generally mucking about.

      • satyadeva says:

        Parmartha made the point that some people did groups who shouldn’t have and at one time I was one of that unhappy band. The worst case was 3 supposedly ‘energetically transformational’ months with Somendra, quite a small group of about 15 people, I think, plenty of weekends, regular midweek sessions and 3 lots of 5 day residentials. And all the encounter, including vicious abuse and violence, one could ever wish for, as there were a lot of ‘personality clashes’…

        I wanted to do it – I was in desperate straits: mediocre health, terrible living conditions ( a slum of a ‘squat’, without proper plumbing or electricity, or furniture), no proper work, no money, one of the lowest points of my life – and at that time, Somendra, founder of ‘People not Psychiatry’, didn’t like to turn away anyone.

        I should add that I’d also been given ‘the green light’ to participate by, I thought, ‘Bhagwan’, having written to him and received the advice, “Yes, help Somendra”! Oh, the irony…There were one or two others who shouldn’t have been there, including a mild-mannered ‘schizoid’-type young man, but there we were, lambs in the slaughterhouse.

        I can honestly say it was not only a complete and utter waste of time (and money), it was also very damaging – on top of the damage I was already carrying in my very cells. In fact, it convinced me, aged 29 (yes, good old ‘Saturn Return’!) that sannyas wasn’t for me, I’d never ‘make it’, I was destined for ‘failure’. And that just a couple of years or so after having my life transformed – or thinking it had been transformed – by dynamic meditation, leading to nearly 10 months in Poona, including editing a book, ‘The Mustard Seed’.

        In retrospect, I should never have been allowed to participate in such an enterprise, I should have been supported firstly in getting my life on some sort of healthy track, well away from that sort of poisonous rubbish. Which, fortunately, is what I eventually managed to do, after a fashion.

        I have no good memories of those 3 months, none whatsoever, it was a nightmare, and I certainly made no friends. Indeed, one person used to look down her nose at me for years afterwards, on the few occasions I came across her, still making snide remarks – all in the name of ‘growth’, but of course!

        That essentially ‘finished’ sannyas for me, for many years, although I paid it ‘lip service’, as it were, enjoying meditations, books and videos and the company of certain people, after my general health and well-being improved (thanks to TM, the so-called ‘primary school’ non-meditation).

        • dominic says:

          Interesting sd. A survivor of therapy abuse! Guess there’s plenty of that around, especially if you’re in a very vulnerable place. Yes the group/leader context can be nurturing and growthful or become ‘Lord of the flies’ and everything in between.
          Normally there’s screening for most groups to make sure there aren’t too many squirrels in the loft.
          TM…well that’s another story (and delusional money making system with a manipulative perverted guru!)
          But yeah the discipline of sitting quietly everyday for a short while may be just the ticket and a lot more doable for most people than hour long heavy duty meditations.
          I’ve noticed people do stay attached to TM even after sannyas. I wonder about it. Is it an ocd thing ?
          It’s just inwardly repeating a mantra right, kind of calming I suppose. Then again the ones I’ve seen emerging from that background tend to be spiritual bypassers….eastern mumbo jumbo dressed up as science, siddhis, flying lessons, big bang theory, black magic….sounds just like….oh no! the horror! the horror!

          • satyadeva says:

            Re TM, it’s more therapy than true meditation, but its effects aren’t “delusional”, they’re tangible and beneficial in my 8 years’ experience (3 separate periods).

            For a start, after a very short time the mantra sort of repeats itself and changes, ‘stretches’ even, according, I suppose, to the condition of the body/mind, specifically the nervous system. And the relaxation, the rest that arises is remarkable, with energy, mental clarity and a certain well-being the spin-offs afterwards.

            Nothing to do with ‘ocd’ either, I kept going as I felt I needed it and enjoyed it.

            But…there came a time when something told me to stop, time to move on….

          • Arpana says:


            Surely that shitty experience with Somendra
            played a part in you finding out what you needed to to do to get some clarity about your life, which you do have.

            I personally always see sannyas and meditation, as trial and error.
            Steps forward and back, and forward.


            • satyadeva says:

              Of course, Arpana, there’s a lesson in everything.

              Yet, as I said, it put me off sannyas for years, reinforcing a lifelong pattern of believing I was fundamentally ‘not good enough’ – and never would be.

              Which, as I understand it, isn’t exactly the point of it all….

              • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

                sorry to hear that satyadeva – it was an awful experience you entered into – i feel very sad about the wound you have expressed – there are tears in my eyes
                i know you may not appreciate as it includes rajneesh – but i wish to share with you a beautiful song which if you can hear it may help you heal – accept yourself


                • satyadeva says:

                  Heard the song tonight, DR, and thanks again for your response.

                  While I appreciate your gesture, I find the song nice but nothing that I haven’t already heard, in fact it’s all pretty well par for the New Age course really. Sorry, I don’t want to sound churlish, but I can’t honestly say it moved me, although the words are a good reminder.

              • Arpana says:

                I hear you mate. I know that one.
                \( ^o)(o^ )/

                • satyadeva says:

                  Ok, Arpana, Dhyan Raj, I hear that you hear!

                  To get into something (sannyas), hoping – and even at first experiencing (via dynamic and other high-energy processes, plus the very words and presence of the master) – that it would be the end of that sort of negative programming, and then find that, faced with arising personal difficulties, an apparently important aspect of the whole set-up (group therapy under a so-called ‘vip’) only served to further undermine fundamental self-worth, was indeed a bitter pill…Not what I’d signed up for!

                  And that’s all I want to say, as ‘now is now’ and thankfully, it ain’t so bad….

                  PS: Cheers for the link, DR, I’ll catch up with it later on.

        • Arpana says:

          Thanks for sharing this old bean.
          Good on yah.


      • Lokesh says:

        Good post Dom, and yes it was fun.

  14. shantam prem says:

    Every time I read Lokesh, I get the picture of millions of Indian middle class senor clerks and small town business men.
    Let me give them the name Uncle Ji.
    Uncle ji have no university education yet know everything because he subscribes Hindi Newspaper and also he has good memory to remember the discourses of his babaji.
    These uncle ji look at the half naked photos of western women in Hindi press, read about the divorces and stories of family dramas in Europe and America and think, ” How lucky we Indians are to have stable family and faithful wives. These Europeans are so behind us in the matters of heart and spirituality. Look the way they came to Rajneesh!”

    Uncle ji´s wife is all ear when she listens her husband speaking about religion. It is Satsang for her. She always forgets who this Rajneesh is. Many times she has asked, ” Is this Rajneesh not the same person who calls himself Osho?”
    And uncle ji never get tired to explain ” Yes..He changed his name after doing illegal things in America. Really, Time never forgives any one. Look such a genius like Osho lost all his qualities once these white Shudras started coming to him. In the end he was just telling dirty jokes to them and they were laughing like sexually suppressed teenagers.”
    Through Vasna(Lust) No one has got the freedom. It is like pouring oil instead of water on the fire.
    One another quality of uncle is that they can never live away from their wives. I remember one uncle ji saying, ” Even in this age of 65, he needs at least five time sex per week.”
    When I asked with the same woman? he was laughing, ” Aare, I am not Follower of Acharya ji”.

  15. Lokesh says:

    Shri Shantum says, ‘Every time I read Lokesh, I get the picture of millions of Indian middle class senor clerks and small town business men.’
    I’ve told you time and again, Shantam, that all that glue sniffing would damage your brain. You ignored my advice and going by your above sentence I can see that irrepairable damage has been done.
    Chelation therapy might help, but it is not cheap.

  16. shantam prem says:

    Lokesh, Not just the opening sentence, the whole post describes your kind of character, if words are some indicators.
    Who knows, you were one such Indian in past life, who knows filthy dirty India becomes your abode in the next life, in case Ibiza is not the full stop of all the longing, all the craving, the last degree last minute of 360 degree circle.

    India I have said for the reason, Lukhnow or Pune, Jabalpur or Dharamshala, Chennai or Bangalore also need some new age gurus who have lives long experience of the west.
    Till now, Indian gurus knew about West only through the books or the starving hearts of milk powdered disciples.
    They have 0% idea about the real west. I am sure none of them have seen even a washing machine, and they talked about nuclear bombs!

    • Arpana says:

      Your whole life is based on assumption and supposition.

      Gibberish and Let-Go

      “Gibberish is to get rid of the active mind, silence to get rid of the inactive mind and let-go is to enter into the transcendental.” Osho

      First Stage: Gibberish

      While sitting, close your eyes and begin to say nonsense sounds – any sounds or words, so long as they make no sense. Just speak any language that you don’t know! Allow yourself to express whatever needs to be expressed within you. Throw everything out. The mind thinks, always, in terms of words. Gibberish helps to break up this pattern of continual verbalization. Without suppressing your thoughts, you can throw them out. Let your body likewise be expressive.

      Second Stage: Moving In

      After some minutes of Gibberish, there is a drumbeat, at which point the Gibberish stops. Osho’s voice then guides the listener into a space of deep silence, stillness and relaxation, saying, for example, “Be silent, close your eyes…no movement of the body – feel frozen. Go inwards, deeper and deeper, just like an arrow. Penetrate all the layers and hit the center of your existence.”

      Third Stage: Let-Go

      Another drumbeat and, without arranging yourself, just allow yourself to fall down “like a bag of rice,” so you are lying, utterly still and relaxed, on your back as you are guided even more deeply into a silent stillness.

      Fourth Stage: Coming Back

      At the final drumbeat, Osho’s voice guides you back to a sitting position, with the reminder to carry the glimpse of silent awareness one may have had into everyday activities.

      To participate, here’s
      a sample meditation (14 mins)

      If you go to the Downloadable Osho Audiobooks page and follow the links to the Catalog page and select “Order Spoken: From Recent” you will find all the talks from “Live Zen” to “The Zen Manifesto: Freedom from Yourself” have guided Gibbersish and Let Go Meditations at the end.

      “Remember, the first step of the meditation is Gibberish. Gibberish simply means throwing out your craziness, which is already there in the mind, piled up for centuries. As you throw it out you will find yourself becoming light, becoming more alive, just within two minutes.

      You will be surprised that when Nivedano [the drummer] gives his second beat, to enter into silence, you enter into silence as deeply as you have never done before. Just those two minutes have cleaned the way. In fact in those two minutes, if you put your total energy … the more you put into it, the deeper will be the following silence.

      Any child can do Gibberish, it doesn´t need any training. From the very first moment you are almost trained. Gibberish needs no training, nor does laughter need any training. If you can do Gibberish you are cleansing your mind of all kinds of dust that goes on gathering. And as the mind becomes silent…there is nowhere to go other than inwards. All roads are forgotten; there remains a single one-way traffic.

      Just for a day or two you may hesitate to go that much inside. Who knows whether you will be able to come back or not? It is a playful, joyful exercise. There is nothing to be worried about, you can go as deep as you want… not knowing Chinese but speaking Chinese, not knowing what they are saying but saying it very emphatically, not bothering at all who is listening…. Nobody is listening, so you can say anything you want, you are not going to offend anybody. There is nobody other than you.

      That will make you saner than you have ever been, because you throw so much garbage that you were holding. Do you think your gibberish is coming from the sky? You are carrying all that garbage, throw it! Just do it totally, enthusiastically. Don´t be bothered whether it is Arabic or Hebrew or Chinese; you are allowed to speak any language that you don´t know. Just avoid the language that you do know, because the language that you do know will not bring your nonsense out, it will be very grammatical. Meaning is not at all the requirement. Just for two minutes give an opportunity to your existence to be meaningless. And you will be immensely shocked to know that just within two minutes you become so light, so ready to enter into silence.”

      Osho, The Miracle, Talk #2

      To continue reading, click here.

    • Lokesh says:

      Shantam speculates, ‘Who knows, you were one such Indian in past life,’
      Shantam, something reincarnates, but I can assure you it is neither you or I. Personality does not survive death, for it was created in this world and therefore, just like everything else created in this world, it will one day be destroyed. Such is life.

      • dominic says:

        What will I be after death?
        I suspect the same that I was before birth.
        Lights out.

        • Lokesh says:

          What about turning on your love light?
          TM? I thought this was a sannyasin blog.

          • satyadeva says:

            TM is only relevant here in the context of meditation/therapy, as I personally feel it’s a deep relaxation therapy masquerading as ‘meditation’.

            As this topic is about ‘encounter’-type therapy, of which my experience was almost totally and destructively negative, with adverse short and long-term consequences, it makes sense to contrast this to much-maligned in ‘know-it-all circles’ TM, which I found very beneficial for recovery from all that stuff, however ‘spiritually incorrect’ it may or may not be.

            Different strokes for different folks, for different needs, at different times!

            • dominic says:

              The main trick to meditation seems to be actually doing it and tm as a form of daily relaxation can’t be bad, though I’d rather just have a quiet lie down for 20 mins.
              I don’t see meditation and encounter as opposed. One is a more internalised mirroring/meeting of our inner selves and the other a more externalised mirroring with outer selves stimulus. All about the same thing ultimately, growing in awareness and love, especially for yourself. Since we all tend to carry that ‘not ok’ monkey on our backs.
              Both paths have dangers.
              You might feel you’re very peaceful and evolved in meditation till someone pushes your button, then Boom!
              You might get group addicted, feel supported and enlivened being with others and being led, but on your own lack resources for self-support and inner direction.
              Your negative reaction sd seems pretty intense. As I said groups and their leaders can range from totalitarian to safe and supportive.
              I never liked the whole star celebrity worship around some of these therapists and don’t trust people who don’t come across as ordinary and approachable these days. I think times have changed in that regard. Groups and gurus are part of the zeitgeist and change with it, although a trip to the kumb mela might contradict that.
              Therapies are just a tool, depends how they’re used. For a while I did some co-counselling where the client is in charge. This opened my eyes to just how authoritarian most therapy models are. It is almost an unconscious given that you give your power away (the transference) to the all knowing therapriest who has this bag of secret tricks up his sleeve. They seldom expose their own vulnerability.
              It is potentially quite a power trip and rife for exploitation financially and emotionally, even if unconscious.
              Sannyas therapy could be quite cavalier without the normal safeguards of the mainstream. Supervision, ongoing therapy for therapists, feedback forms, complaints proceedures, code of ethics……I don’t think so.

              • satyadeva says:

                Your negative reaction sd seems pretty intense.

                It was simply absolutely the wrong thing at the wrong time. Any proper, conventionally accredited therapist would have filtered out me and one or two others beforehand.

                But that’s how the game was in them days, Brian, wasn’t it?

                Now things are different, times have changed, football’s moved on, you can’t risk them tackles from behind no more, it’s a no contact sport these days – sports science, Opta stats, video replays, Sky tv and all that…

                My God, do you remember them mass brawls, when it was kicking off in the middle of the pitch and in the crowd at the same time?

                Do I miss them ‘encounters’?

                No, not at all, Brian, not at all, mate, thanks.

            • Lokesh says:

              I have one friend who really practises religiously his daily one hour TM session. I would describe him as a very relaxed and centred individual. In an intense and stressful situation I can think of no better man to have on your side. He swears, and I’ve no eason to doubt it, that practising TM has transformed his life in a positive way.

  17. shantam prem says:

    Leave and branches were discussing the metaphysical question, ” If the thick head roots fall during the storm, won´t it be freedom for all of us.

    This dependency thing really nerves!

  18. mini kang says:

    Osho on Therapies and Therapists :
    Our therapists also need people to be miserable to sell Therapies and Groups

    From Death to Deathlessness Ch #32: Silence is the highest music :

    Your priests, your politicians, your psychoanalysts, your professors….live on your misery. They live on your being somewhere wrong. If you are perfectly right, they are useless.
    Just the other night, one of my topmost therapists, Veeresh from Holland, asked me, “WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF OUR THERAPEUTIC EFFORTS?”
    I said to him that, “OUR THERAPY IS JUST TO DESTROY all that has made man miserable, split, schizophrenic, insane, sick. But once our therapy has destroyed all this poison in the world, then THERE IS NO FUTURE FOR OUR THERAPY. It has done its work and there is no need for it to exist anymore.

    “That has to be understood very clearly, because once you start doing something, IT BECOMES YOUR VESTED INTEREST. Then on the one hand, you go on doing what you are supposed to do, destroying sickness — and on the other hand you go on creating it, because without it you will be nobody.”

    So my therapists have to understand from the very beginning that WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS TO BE PERMANENTLY THERE. It is only in the transitory period of humanity that therapy is needed. Therapy is needed because people have been made sick. Their sickness is not real, that’s why it can be cured very easily, very simply.

    But remember always that YOU ARE NOT TO BECOME A PERMANENT PHENOMENON, because that means you will have to create sickness. You will have to create the same old game — perhaps under a new name. You have to be courageous enough, when the work is done, to retire from the work.

    Become a gardener, become a farmer, a plumber or anything you can manage to do. BUT THERAPY SHOULD NOT BE YOUR PROFESSION. THESE ARE UGLY PROFESSIONS. We have to have them because in the past man has suffered so many wounds, they have to be healed. But just heal them, and once they are healed you move to some creative work.

    It was compassionate of you to help human beings to be psychologically healthy. And this will be even more compassionate, NOT TO BECOME A PERMANENT SOURCE OF DEPENDENCE for all those people you have helped to be healthy. You have to know when the time is ripe for you to become farmers, gardeners — anything that you love, but be creative.

    THERAPY IS NOT CREATIVE, THERAPY IS DESTRUCTIVE. It is destroying sickness which has been imposed on humanity. A better human world will simply accept realities and will not ask for fictions.

    It is clear that Osho warned Therapist to not make it a profession, which is clearly what is happening today where Therapists behave like mini gurus, and elite people charging 3000 – 5000 US$ for these Therapies and Groups. Is that to making a vested interest and a profession ??

    • satyadeva says:

      Do you think humanity’s ‘psychological sickness’ has been cured, mini kang?

      Here’s what Osho said:
      “It is only in the transitory period of humanity that therapy is needed.”

      What makes you so sure this “transitory period” has ended?

      What you say comes across as another somewhat priestly attempt to propagate the Swami R ‘party line’, but unfortunately it isn’t informed either by an accurate perception of how things really are in the world – don’t worry, it’s not getting any happier, or, shall we say, less miserable! – or, crucially, by your own personal experience, which would appear to be, er, zero.

      So you fall into the common trap of the disciple, just parrotting what someone else has told you; you don’t actually know enough to write with any authority on the matter.

      The latter deficiency is also shared by your teacher, of course, whose anti-therapy stance is informed, I suspect, as much by a wish to take power in the world of Osho as by any realistic appreciation of its value for ‘the seeker’.

      Sure, Osho therapists became too powerful, too much like ‘priests’, and there were abuses, as I’ve described, plus a certain amount of financial and other exploitation, but no need to throw out the baby with the bath water, they can still be of great value, to the right people at the right time.

      And, by the way, may I remind you that sannyas does not necessarily have a monopoly of top-rate therapists. I speak from personal experience, including that of my current life, where I have been lucky enough to have found – via an old sannyasin friend – a truly excellent one. I assure you it makes a difference.

      • dominic says:

        I agree with sd, mk. Parroting sw. rajneesh/osho makes you look like a….parrot, a rajneeshbot. At least speak with your own words and experience. Your master seems to have a chip on his shoulder about it all, even if there are valid points to be made about exploitation.
        Swallowing it whole without proper chewing and digestion produces a lot of wind.
        Instead of telling people what to believe and not believe, how about supporting them to find out what’s right and true for them.

        • Lokesh says:

          Poor Mini has, as usual, not a clue what she is talking about. something that appeas to be a common denominator amongst Swami Rajneesh’s people, who constantly parrot Osho’s words, words that often contradict other things his master’s voice said.

          • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

            mini is quoting osho its true – so i dont see how you say she hasnt a clue what she is talking about – she isnt talking – osho is – and your idea that oshos insights are of no value is just weird on an osho sannyas website

            • satyadeva says:

              As I said in my earlier post (1.09am today)…

              Do you think humanity’s ‘psychological sickness’ has been cured, mini kang?

              Here’s what Osho said:
              “It is only in the transitory period of humanity that therapy is needed.”

              What makes you so sure this “transitory period” has ended?

              DR, as you appear to have missed this point, let me ask you the same question.

              • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

                powerful and utterly simple ways of bringing out suppressed emotion or psychological sickness and releasing it such as mystic rose meditation, dynamic and kundalini, nomind gibberish meditation, dance and song are there which can do no harm and need no special knowledgeable person to facilitate them

                what is the need of all these therapy games and therapists other than to make a career for themselves exploiting others like the old priests?
                and particularly encounter groups – screaming and shouting at each other just creates more sickness and damage in people –
                as those here who experienced encounter to the max as you satyadeva and lokesh have testified

                • satyadeva says:

                  Again, you avoid the question, DR.

                  According to Osho:
                  “It is only in the transitory period of humanity that therapy is needed.”

                  Again I ask, do you really believe this “transitory period” is over?

                  Besides, several of the methods you advocate above are simply impractical for most people to get to grips with.

                  I speak as someone who for many years practised various ‘releasing’ methods to a large extent on my own and let me tell you that while they’re very useful, they’re far from the ‘panacea’ you seem to think they are, they’re not necessarily going to do the whole job for everyone – even when meditation is added to the mix.

                  Your dogmatic stance on this demonstrates to me that you don’t really have much grasp of ‘psychological sickness’ and its treatment. Either because of a lack of adequate personal experience, being otherwise ill-informed, or simply choosing to blindly follow the agenda-driven viewpoint of another (who may well be equally ill-informed).

                  Btw, I think you’ll find Lokesh reckons he benefited from the Poona encounter group. But no doubt he’ll put you straight on that later.

                  Number one rule for ‘commentators’, even for those of a, er, ‘priestly’ persuasion:

                  Get your facts right.

                • mini kang says:

                  Perfect reply, clear as to what are real meditations that transform, which need no Therapist playing Guru.

                • satyadeva says:

                  As I’ve said to DR (see my post of 5pm), I doubt whether you know exactly what you’re talking about.

                  But following what some authority figure says makes you think you know something, makes you feel ‘secure’, doesn’t it?

                  Why not face up to the blindingly obvious fact that you know very, very little?

                • bodhi vartan says:

                  DR, the use of therapy in the old days was used in order to direct the meditator’s ‘attention’ towards his personal blocks by identifying them.

                  It can be done by meditation alone. It just takes longer.

                  If you can do Osho’s active meditations with 100% energy, you don’t need bio-energetics, and if you can cathart 100% you don’t need therapy.

                • satyadeva says:

                  “…if you can cathart 100% you don’t need therapy.”

                  I know from my own (and others’) experience this would-be ‘definitive’ statement is nonsense, Vartan, it’s just a misinformed, shallow, ‘pie-in-the-sky’ claim, the kind of baseless tripe served up by Swami R & co.

                  I spent many years ‘catharting 100%’, in and out of dynamic meditation, both while not needing and needing therapy. With meditation a major focal point of it all. At times, such ‘self-help’ is simply not enough, whatever efforts are made to clear one’s inner space.

                  An extreme case? Maybe – but believe me, there were/are plenty of them.

                • bodhi vartan says:

                  satyadeva says:
                  >> Vartan, it’s just a misinformed, shallow, ‘pie-in-the-sky’ claim, the kind of baseless tripe served up by Swami R & co

                  Still catharting …

                  I can accept your opinion without the abuse.

                • satyadeva says:

                  That’s nothing like catharting or abuse.

                  Perhaps you don’t like your slick-sounding little aphorism being shown up as nonsense.

                • bodhi vartan says:

                  It’s not nonsense but I will accept that it does not apply to everybody.

                  Also, catharsis can be more than emotional release. Extreme activities (sports) can be cathartic both from the level of the participants and the level of the spectators.

                  I have actually considered introducing some kind of sport activity (not necessarily extreme) to replace the therapy in the sannyas world (in the west). My current foray into Japanese Archery is leaning slightly in that direction and if it works I will be looking at Swordmaship next.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Sure, catharsis doesn’t necessarily involve emotionally catharting. Greek tragedy, for example, the first time I ever heard the word, age about 14, I think.

                • bodhi vartan says:

                  It is a metaphor originally used by Aristotle in the Poetics to describe the effects of tragedy on the spectator. (Wiki)

                  These days they advise ppl to write diaries in an effort to get them to see themselves from an external viewpoint.

            • mini kang says:

              Perfect observation again Dhyanraj.

              Satya Deva, Dominic, Lokesh projecting their own personal views against Osho views.
              I was just illustrating a clear issue raised by Osho, and they use that against me as if i have quoted, and then call me a parrot.
              Illustrating and Quoting are separate.

              Why do all these people call themselves Osho sannyasins ?? Why not have a Lokesh or Satya Deva Quotes area on SN ??

              Unfortunately i have already read most of their personal quotes on Osho earlier, and i cannot quote them like a parrot, as that would be a real offense.

              Better to be an Osho parrot than a Lokesh, or Satya Deva parrot.

              • satyadeva says:

                Not a particularly intelligent post, mini kang (to put it mildly).

                Where, for example, have I posted “against Osho views”?

                It is you and DR who seem to want to ignore Osho’s simple point about ‘dissolving’ therapies:

                For the third time:
                “It is only in the transitory period of humanity that therapy is needed.”

                Again I ask, do you really believe this “transitory period” is over?

                I suggest you ask DR or Rajneesh for more lessons in ‘practical parotting’.

                As with DR, why on earth you’ve been chosen as one of SR’s chief advocates defeats me.

                (On the other hand, I guess there’s something in the old adage:
                Like attracts like, or…

                One parrot deserves another)….

                • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

                  yes – like attracts like – thats why you stand with these other fools here and their “clever” mind trips pulling osho down’ and i stand with rajneesh -
                  no one has chosen me as anything satyadeva – rajneesh is perfectly capable of representing himself
                  i speak in favour of rajneesh and osho out of love because i wish to and from my own experience

                • satyadeva says:

                  Points of information, DR:

                  Swami R didn’t do a good job at all of representing himself when he came on here.

                  And as I and others have told you, you yourself are doing no better on his behalf.
                  As quite apart from anything else, how you present yourself is enough to put anyone off what you’re saying.

                  Pompous, priestly (ie ignorance pretending to know) statements about enlightenment being just one instance among many.

                  PS: Any chance of responding to my twice-repeated question, by the way? Or is it too inconvenient for your liking?

                • bodhi vartan says:

                  satyadeva says:
                  >> For the third time:
                  “It is only in the transitory period of humanity that therapy is needed.”

                  >> Again I ask, do you really believe this “transitory period” is over?

                  If I may,
                  I don’t believe that the “transitory period” is over. But what I do believe is that sannyasins haven’t (perhaps as yet) sorted out this therapy thingy properly.

                  Haven’t you noticed that we (on this board) hardly disagree about the meditations and the friction arises when we start discussing therapy … and the moral is … that perhaps we should be sticking to what we know.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Interesting how DR and mini k have chosen to avoid this question of “the transitory period”…

                  Can’t imagine why…

                  Oh, wait a minute – could it be that what they dearly believe to be so, one of their learned main agendas, conflicts with what Osho has said on the matter?

                  No, surely not?

                • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

                  you seem to be pretty well stuck on this question of transitory period satyadeva -

                  its an example of a mind grasping onto straws to try and prove that therapy and therapists are of some value with their mind games

                  there is no need for mind games – there is a need to raise energy up beyond the mind – where the mind and its intricacies becomes simply irrelevant –

                  therapy is a way to cling onto the old mind – a pretend transformation is sought by attempts to understand and alter the mind – all useless really as far as real transformation of energy s concerned

                • satyadeva says:

                  I’m “pretty well stuck on this question”, DR, first because you’ve taken so long to respond, and now because – Shock! Horror! – you’re going against what Osho specifically stated. To remind you yet again (for the fourth time):

                  “It is only in the transitory period of humanity that therapy is needed.”

                  Many, probably most, experienced ‘seekers’, of course, are way beyond the therapy stage, that’s not in question. But a few aren’t, neither, I imagine, are very many less experienced or new ones.

                  Moreover, remember, Osho is talking about “humanity”, not a tiny section of the human race, but all of it.
                  If you truly believe that humanity is no longer in “the transitory period” then you are an utterly misguided, out-of-touch fool. So absurdly mistaken that such a claim simply beggars belief.

                  But, I suppose, what else to expect from one so obviously living in a ‘bubble’, separate from most of the rest of the world?

                  As far as humanity is concerned, including many would-be ‘consciously spiritual’ people, these views of yours are nothing but the product of inappropriate, ignorant, pseudo-spiritual pretentiousness. Flavoured and driven by an apparently blind adherence to the un-nuanced, dogmatic anti-therapy/anti-therapists agenda of your teacher.

                  As I said, your expressed views on this are contrary to Osho’s guidelines. So I suggest you either revise them or keep to them and simply give up trying to play the ‘perfect devotee’ – unless you want to be defined as an utter hypocrite, of course….

                • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

                  well satyadeva – first you tell me what i truly believe even though i have said nothing of the kind then attack me for that belief which is the creation of your own imagination – do you think that is intelligence?

                  ah well – its too difficult to keep on scrolling up and down to answer the other colourful misconceptions you bring forth so ill leave it at that

                • satyadeva says:

                  What a slippery old so ‘n’ so you are when cornered, eh, DR?!

                  Tell me straight now – and remember, the whole world’s watching:

                  Do you or do you not accept that “it is only in the transitory period of humanity that therapy is needed.” ?

                  As you clearly state that therapy is merely “mind games” and take pains to denigrate it as of little or no value, then – providing you accept Osho’s statement – it follows that you believe that “the transitory period” is over. (Of course, as a real devotee accepts unquestioningly that the master is always right, then if you don’t accept Osho’s statement then you disqualify yourself as a ‘proper devotee’, do you not?).

                  Correct, or not?

                  Now follow this, it’s really very simple (even for you)…

                  Many, probably most, experienced ‘seekers’, of course, are way beyond the therapy stage, that’s not in question. But a few aren’t, neither, I strongly suspect, are very many less experienced or new ones. These can find good therapy modes of real benefit.

                  Agree, or not?

                  Moreover, remember, Osho is talking about “humanity”, not a tiny section of the human race, but all of it.
                  As anyone with any vestige of awareness, or even of real common sense, realises, much of humanity is in an appalling, unconscious, one might even say, degraded, condition. Consequently, therapy is still needed, still serves an important purpose, very much so, for very many human beings.

                  Agree, or not?

                  If you avoid these questions, either completely of by giving an inadequate, too-slippery-by-half answer, I’ll be right on your tail, mate.

                • bodhi vartan says:

                  I am getting a bit confused here. Are we talking about encounter in particular or therapy in general?

                  My position is that a traumatised individual needs therapy, fullstop … but the way I saw ‘therapy’ applied in sannyas was on the principle that if you administer ‘therapy’ to a healthy individual, it should have a enhancing effect. It partly worked but it confused a lot of ppl too. Ppl like me.

                • satyadeva says:

                  About therapy in general in recent posts, Vartan.

                  I suppose it depends what one means by “healthy”…

                  There’s a spectrum of mental/emotional health and briefly, ‘different strokes for different folks’ would seem the optimum guideline.

                  At this point, I’d like to say that I’m no ‘therapy junkie’, not at all, and there was/is a lot wrong (as well as a lot right) with the sannyas version, as recently outlined by Dominic. But it remains a potentially extremely valuable resource to help mildly or severely damaged people, of whom there are many in this madhouse of a world, so it’s sheer irresponsible stupidity of the likes of DR, MK and their teacher to renounce it all as ‘useless rubbish’.

              • dominic says:

                A parrot is a parrot is a parrot. No originality there.
                Criticize Osho? Hell, yeah!
                (Mk: Stone the infidel!)

                • Lokesh says:

                  It’s going to take Mini a long time to wake up to what she is involved in. I have faith in the lass and believe one day she will get it…as in what an idiot I must have appeared to those guys back in the days of SN. I’ll be long gone by then and so will a lot of other things but, hey, that’s life. So here is to Mini when she is an old lady.

                • dominic says:

                  “I have faith in the lass”
                  Wish I could share your optimism, but fear she’s headed for the Parrotorium.
                  Or on the bright side if this doesn’t work out there could be openings in north korea or with the Taliban.
                  “Perfect observation again Dhyanraj” is the kind of line that the comrades go apeshit over. Or “Rajneesh Akbar”. All easily transferrable skills.

                • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

                  oh – and one more thing satyadeva – osho himself took steps to dissolve therapy groups while he was in the body by introducing mystic rose, born again group, and no mind group for people to do instead – groups that need no therapist and do not attempt to understand the mind –
                  direct non confrontational methods to clear the mind of all accumulated rubbish – perhaps he did not listen to what he himself had said earlier about “transitory period”
                  how silly of him eh ?

                • satyadeva says:

                  Yes, these are probably wonderful groups, DR, who would ever argue with that – but they aren’t necessarily good for all people at any time. I’ll bet my last penny that some in fact might even be the wrong thing for certain people to do, causing more harm than good.

                  Some people, perhaps a lot of the less experienced and newcomers – not to mention the vast majority of “humanity” (remember, Osho used this word, he didn’t say ‘sannyasins’ or similar) are better served by more conventional therapies, including one-on-one individual work and guidance.

                  To deny that is to go down a very foolish, very misguided path, and I believe is asking for trouble, for mental health casualties. My sense is that you – and your teacher – simply haven’t had enough personal experience of the matter, and are far too committed to an uninformed, dogmatic policy that suits a certain agenda, based on power issues, rather than being based upon what might be in the best interests of the people.

                  Besides, Osho did not put a stop to therapy or therapy groups, they carried on flourishing in his ashram and in his centres worldwide. Thus, to say “perhaps he did not listen to what he himself had said earlier about “transitory period” how silly of him, eh?” is just disingenuous, slippery nonsense, plucked out of the air without any proof, simply because it happens to suit your agenda. Unimpressive again, DR.

                • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

                  ah well – keep your therapy then satyadeva – therapies may have gone on flourishing in ashrams and centres due to the efforts of therapists and the idea this was a good way to raise money –
                  and as osho had left the body there was nothing much he could say more about it eh – until rajneesh started exposing the truth about the game that is

                • satyadeva says:

                  And before Osho’s death? If he wanted to ban therapies, why didn’t he?

                  Also, you conveniently choose to completely ignore that he was talking in the context of “humanity”, not merely of sannyasins or his ashram. Very probably because you are some sort of ‘spiritual elitist’ – you know, several cuts above ‘the common herd’, so you’d never lower yourself to consider them in such an issue.

                  Your argument is so desperately flawed, no wonder you can only provide the sketchiest of responses..

                  For anyone with a vestige of awareness and/or common sense, it’s glaringly obvious that therapies are necessary in this benighted world.

                  Also obvious is that the power issue imperative (plus sheer ignorance, due to lack of experience) has blinded you and your teacher to any sort of realistic assessment of their value.

                  It’s really quite remarkable how unimpressively you come across here, DR.

                  As Lokesh has said, if you and mini k were typical examples of the sannyas movement, I’d immediately resign.

    • Lokesh says:

      Same old, same old. Osho says, ‘ Teertha has become a mini-guru. He knows nothing about enlightenment.’ Dhyanraj, that definitely rings a bell. An alarm bell perhaps? Well, I’m qute certain you won’t hear it, but thanks for the reminder anyway.

      • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

        yes – same old same old – thats how it is here -
        the same old thirty year old “news” is continually chewed over ad nauseum by cynical exsannyasins who are proud to have no interest in the sannyas movement or osho today –
        i mean really – who is interested in encounter groups now ?
        the whole blog seems to be stuck in a timewarp where old men endlessly reminisce about their youth, agree with each other that they were intelligent to drop sannyas, that osho is no longer relevant in their lives and they are much more sensible now without sannyas

        - living out their days playing clever word games with each other – it might as well be dominoes

  19. Parmartha says:

    Most of the old Pune one groups were benign. And as Arpana hints earlier done by way of entertainment for the troops, arguably to hold them there within Osho’s Buddhafield, otherwise they would drift off to the next ashram in their sleep, etc.
    The encounter group was barred to Indians (except those born in the west and Bollywood types), but as I have indicated before, why not Japanese or Persians or many other cultures, that if one accepts the Indian argument would not readily fit or be suited to the encounter groups.
    There is a moving account in one part of this string by SD who is English about how he felt damaged by an early encounter group.
    The point about those few heavy type groups, whether in Pune one, OR anywhere else, then or now, is that there should be a careful selection policy for them. They are not for all by any means. I still consider that some Indians, like some Japanese who benefited from them, were suitable, and some, like SD, who was from the UK, were not. It showed and shows a lack of nuanced and sophisticated thinking that was and is common.

  20. shantam prem says:

    “My Mini guru is a big one. His mini guru is very mini.”
    Are the gurus have come to this level to compare them in the showers of locker rooms?

  21. shantam prem says:

    It was an experiment to provoke God. But the neighbours got disturbed with the smoke of provocation.
    Once the legendry alchemist died, His people thought, let us mend the bridges with neighbours!

  22. Lokesh says:

    Parmartha declares, ‘It showed and shows a lack of nuanced and sophisticated thinking that was and is common.’
    I agree, especially in regards Poona One ashram policies. So much absolute nonsense was taken ever so seriously by the non-serious sannyasins back in those days. People actually believed people like Diksha were zen masters, that two thirds of the world’s population would be wiped out by AIDS, hepatitus was a spiritual illness, steralization was needed to further ones spiritual growth, that a little wooden box with Osho’s toe nail clippings emanated strong spiritual vibrations…the list is endless. Most times it was good for a laugh, but not always.

  23. shantam prem says:

    I feel it will be more graceful if the so called independent souls criticise the adulterers of their immediate spiritual mentors rather than criticising Rajneesh. By hitting at the soft target is not warrior like at all.

    • dominic says:

      I’m sure shants that if other devotees presented themselves here with their parrot squawking, we would offer them equal opportunities for a check up from the neck up.

  24. shantam prem says:

    People of my age and above, who were saying Osho Osho Osho their whole life; most probably will get their last glass of water from missionaries or the help appointed by the Church.
    This will be a kind of poetic Justice!

    No encounter group leader will be around, no path of love where you paid from credit card, but a simple Nunn, looking in the eyes, holding the pulse and saying, ” How are you Mr Swami”?

    If someone in master´s organisation runs over the tractor over the seeds sown by the master himself, such case scenario is not a too far fetched fantasy.

    • dominic says:

      Justice or Just-ice. A chilling thought.
      Perhaps it’s time to start backing the favourite ‘Ave Maria’ horse and the after-life odds.
      I’m sure you’ve just highlighted a potential market though. Skype ‘making the transition’ calls with paypal and a therapriest of your choice, or even the whole path of love academy on a large flatscreen celebrating your demise with ecstatic dancing.
      I’m imagining your response…
      “A simple Nunn, looking in the eyes, holding the pulse and saying, ” How are you Mr Swami”?
      “I’ve been better, but I could really use a b*** job right now.”

  25. Preetam says:

    Each self decides if he encounters the periphery or seeks his true root. If disciples use Encounter as a Therapy, that way making of himself just a reasonable compromising lamb, it’s his freedom… but spreading this version; is twisting truth into some typical holy or unholy sh…

    • dominic says:

      People here seem to have a caricatured view of encounter or open group therapy (all screaming), seen through a small and embryonic sannyasin lens. It is more than that. There is data around it, with most people seeming to benefit over short and long term with 6-10% who don’t or are left traumatized. The style of leadership of any group is a key factor I would have thought, rather than of the labels ascribed.
      Let’s face it sannyas style therapy has always been cavalier, loose and charismatic in it’s approach without too many safeguards, especially in the early days, so perhaps it has a higher casualty rate. Who here can ever remember filling in a feedback form ?
      People like MK, DR, and swami R, would probably get ‘slaughtered’ in such groups, nobody would stand for their posturing for too long, hence their aversion!

  26. dominic says:

    Yes shants, it’s taken 50 years for western seekers with the help of the internet to arrive at a much more realistic view of the romantic mystical east and it’s other worldly emporium. Gurus have been stripped and consciousness deconned, with still much work to be done. The integration of the best of east and west is still a workable paradigm though and what set osho apart.
    Emerging markets are going to be historically less sophisticated in separating the wheat from the chaff. They are also more inured in totalitarian mind control and thought structures, laying them more susceptible to simple-minded guru-itis and obeisance.
    Here in london, groups and events are populated by eastern bloc enthusiasm and not just the men as it with indians! Hopefully any naivetee is getting buffered by the anti-authority stance and wit of uk monty python culture.
    From another point of view, what is genuine and of benefit and what is the march of spiritual capitalism is a moot point.

    • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

      painting the master disciple relationship and science of transformation which is of such value to the few who understand – saying its something that should be torn down – is simply interfering into others freedom dominic –
      yes the masters will not benefit you – you dont have that understanding – and who can blame you – you are with the vast majority of unconscious humans –

      what is the mystery is why you are commenting here – ah but you have revealed the answer –
      “Gurus have been stripped and consciousness deconned, with still much work to be done”
      first you put the master on a pedestal of your own imagination – now you imagine it is your duty to remove him from where you yourself have put him

      • bodhi vartan says:

        >> dhyanraj says:
        dominic –
        yes the masters will not benefit you – you dont have that understanding – and who can blame you – you are with the vast majority of unconscious humans –

        Does your current master tell you to raise the abuse level, like Osho did with Sheela? Are you going to start calling us names?

        • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

          perhaps my statement of fact seems abusive to you vartan – i cant help it – true is true – the vast majority of humanity is unconscious – and one cannot be benefited by the masters when he has so little understanding of them and has made it his mission to drag them down to his own unconscious level

          • bodhi vartan says:

            I think where we differ DR is that you still see Osho as your master … whereas we see him as our friend. It is only a small shift in consciousness but you don’t seem to want to make it. It will transform you.

            Argue that!

            • Arpana says:

              One of us at least cant find a suitable word to describe
              Osho’s role in his life!!!

            • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

              Vartan, i will try to answer your question –
              the idea that you are osho’s friend is simply the way osho chose to lose those so called sannyasins who had been hanging around him without any real connection to him – a way for him to relieve himself of unnecessary responsiblity for those who were pretend disciples – egoistic people – they were very happy to have become oshos friends, his equals – they dropped sannyas and went their own way, as they did before they met osho
              those who were oshos disciples have remained oshos disciples – and value the master disciple relationship – it is a love affair, a dissolving into the master
              if you want to see where osho explained all this to his small group of disciples who were with him in uruguay you can read his book beyond psychology chapter 24 – here is a link

              • bodhi vartan says:

                swami satyam dhyanraj says:
                >> Vartan, i will try to answer your question – the idea that you are osho’s friend

                No, I was never Osho’s friend but he was my friend and if you can figure out the difference, you have arrived.

          • Preetam says:

            Where do you take the barefacedness from to say that most people are unconscious. Who provokes you to do such destructive statement against your own kind?

            • Preetam says:

              Earlier whole cultures and tribes were described as uncultivated and undeveloped. What certain people prompting to teach them culture. In Africa, America, Asia, even in Australia it was a terrible massacre in this name.

              Now the word changes fashionably fit in “unconscious”. In future perhaps likely enough to be sufficient substantiation in the behalf of New Age keeping business running and teach the world what “conscious” implies.

        • mini kang says:

          Bodhi Vartan, says // Does your current master tell you to raise the abuse level, like Osho did with Sheela? //

          So you say that Osho abused Sheela ??

          • anand yogi says:

            It is a well known fact that Sheela used to beat Oshos bare bottom with a hairbrush.
            A Shakti tradition that ,i hear, has been carried on down the lineage of enlightened masters,today,even though the majority of the world is completely unconscious…
            And you are perfectly right,Dhyanraj has made perfect
            Anyone with a little piece of consciousness,opennness and love for the master can see that he is an almost perfect disciple.
            And his catchphrase:
            Yes,perfectly good.

            • Tan says:

              Thanks for the reminder Anand Yogi.
              Let’s not forget that from Sheela beating Osho’s bare bottom with a hairbrush, it has been developed into a healing by the SN therapist, Lokesh Baba. The unforgetable THB is one of the finest joke to ever be told here.

              • anand yogi says:

                Your reply is perfectly right,Tania.
                I have to keep on hammering on the thick skulls of the unenlightened masses,and chopping the egos of the fools, ex-sannyasins who osho said were only accidental sannyasins anyway and cleverminds whose knowledge is a hindrance to anyone on the true path to enlightenment like those here on Sannyasnews who hate the truth and who are jealous of that perfect disciples Droneattackraj,Brianraj and Mini Brian whose obvious enlightenment they have to deny from their own justified feelings of envy and inferiority.
                Of course,the degraded,unconscious,hater of enlightenment,the abusive, egoic-minded,egotistical cricket-loving papaji-clone,member of retarded humanity, disgraceful pundit and 32 year old ex-sannyasin osho-hater Lokesh has become a therapriest making money and exploiting all the innocent people with a treatment that does not cost any money at all.
                just you take off the chuddies and take the hairbrush and beat.
                it is so simple.why charge money?
                I have been getting this treatment for free and soon I will make it available at no cost in 6-8 communes worldwide.
                Ha! The red-bottomed alcoholic baboons at the resort will soon learn their lesson when we have taken over the resort and the innocent sannyasins can see that our bottoms are just as red as theirs!

                • Tan says:

                  Thanks for that, Anand Yogi.
                  Really enjoyed and laughed heartfully. Pure therapy!
                  Nobody could have said it better.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Golly, I’ve finally been put in my place. Shakti, pass the hairbrush. It’s time for another therapy session. Yes, of course you can keep on your black suspender belt. We can wear any colour we want now.

      • dominic says:

        If you are a shining example of the science of transformation, then we’re in big trouble and need to rethink the science.
        Your sannyas passport must be a fake since your Osho bible studies have more holes than a sieve.
        Two Osho quotes out of many……
        “There is no guru now, there is no one to be followed. There is no leader, there is no guide. You are alone; you are the aloneness.”
        “I had always wanted not to be a master to anybody. But people want a master, they want to be disciples; hence, I played the role. It is time that I should say to you that now many of you are ready to accept me as the friend.”

        You are your own worst enemy and shoot yourself in the foot at every turn. No thanks to your thought police, but we still have free speech which allows people like yourself to put people off ever wanting to evolve, if this is the result.
        But who can blame you…. your posts are cognitively challenged, emotionally disabled, differently moraled,


  27. Preetam says:

    Yes Shantam, they have discovered the concept of inside / outside therapies sensibility. The great surrender unto the money archetype. A little as people who join the Military and swear loyalty perhaps onto the Dutch crown. As I see it, they hired on a corsair, ordinarily people would therefor hang.

  28. Lokesh says:

    Squack! And what is so wrong with being a parrot? We are eco-friendly. look lovely,have names like Mini and Brian shit on human heads and generally parrot around. Leave us parrots alone, or we might peck you! Squawk!

    • dominic says:

      Pretty polly is very ego-friendly in a cage, repeating ad nauseam what it’s master says, however much you want to shut it up.

      • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

        a life long obsession with encounter therapy that has found its expression in old age calling people names here on sannyas news – give him a bisquit – he deserves one for his endless attempts to prove his worth by abusing others

        • satyadeva says:

          “A lifelong obsession with encounter therapy” – who exactly are you referring to here, DR?

          I don’t recognise anyone here that remotely fits such a description.

          Are you someone who’ll make up anything, as and when it suits you? You know, that sort of liar, common to all manner of highly emotional, agenda-driven fanatics: politicians, fundamentalists and the like?

          • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

            i am refering to lokesh satyadeva who told us he and his wife and son made a habit of such encounter throughout their lives –
            mellowed out now he said although his 40 year old son is still at it –
            and yet in his old age transferring the encounter trip to these sannyas news comments

        • dominic says:

          “Abusing others”
          Now who could possibly fit that description?
          Shall we take a vote on it?
          No need. The undefeated champion by a long way….Die ‘n Rage
          Well at least you’re good at something, (apart from parroting.)

  29. Preetam says:

    Yes, Vitra is part of the game provoking senses – provokes desire and greed for power, it’s easier to find co-perpetrator and henchman. Such we make unresisting wrong oblations, pretty harmful for the human soul and society… Atharva call’s them Rakshas. Must be the “free” willy of east and west perhaps, at least one syntheses.

  30. shantam prem says:

    Squacki baba Lokesh
    Who says to be ex. sannyasin is not a good degree!
    Parrot not in the cage is free from the parroting too.

    • Lokesh says:

      If Mini and Dhyanrage are the cutting edge of the sannyasins world, I’ll put it bluntly and say I am definitly an EX. My local postman is closer to enlightenment than those guys. Squak! I love seeds. I was a sparrow in my last life. Things are looking up.

      • mini kang says:

        Have you personally met DhyanRaj or Mini Kang ??
        Or just making opinions ?? If you claim you are a mature sannyasin or Ex Sannyasin, you should know this difference. To make options and judge others is completely blind, and not having ever met them also makes you judgmental egoistic.
        Better to place facts and not personal opinions. That is just your ego talking and you need to encounter yourself clearly. here.
        Judge the Act not the person. And by Act i mean the quality of consciousness behind the act. So it is clear you have never met me to make any judgment. Now that is a Fact.

        • satyadeva says:

          Mini Kang:
          Judge the Act not the person. And by Act i mean the quality of consciousness behind the act. So it is clear you have never met me to make any judgment. Now that is a Fact.

          I have rarely seen such a mixed-up apology of a statement at SN.
          If it’s any indicator of your inner state then you’re rather confused, mk.

        • dominic says:

          If I said, you make a lot of sense mini mart….why then I’d be a really big liar.
          Perhaps you’re playing all the right notes just in the wrong order.
          When moving away from your comfort zone of copy and paste, start small …. Baby steps.
          If you’re not used to expressing yourself then
          a few simple words will do to begin with…then build on that.

        • bodhi vartan says:

          MK, you need to get out of SR’s control, DR’s control, and self control. Come back in a few years.

        • Lokesh says:

          Mini Klang enquires, ‘Have you personally met DhyanRaj or Mini Kang ??’
          The lass obviously doesn’t trust her memory. In answer to her question; the answer is no and I have no desire to. Why would I want to meet such a pair? The world is full of stupid people. There is no need to seek them out, just get on the bus and don’t make a fuss and you’ll see plenty of them. I’m interested in meeting authentic, creative, intelligent, humourous, artistic people and, of course, aliens.

          • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

            here we see the encounter group in action – mini says something from the heart and four egoic bullies gang up to do their best to tear her to pieces –
            no wonder genuine sannyasins rarely comment here on sannyas news

            • satyadeva says:

              “Something from the heart” was just another instance of mini k looking for a problem and getting the wrong end of the hairbrush – er, sorry, stick!

              PS: “Four egoic bullies”, eh? That, presumably, includes you, DR?

              • swami satyam dhyanraj says:

                yes satyadeva – hen peck mini – its easier than commenting on oshos talk about his “friends” below –
                are you one of oshos friends no longer a disciple as vartan says you are ?

                • anand yogi says:

                  Do not relent in your ceaseless fight against these Osho-haters and destroyers of enlightenment who egoically attack a poor little helpless and innocent soul who has learned her lines by heart,like Mini Brian,who wouldn’t hurt a fly.Shame on these egoic bullies who think they can just abuse anyone who disagrees with them.
                  I am with you all the way,BrianRaj.
                  I will not rest until the world is a free place for Osho impersonators and their clones to imitate clone and parrot osho and pass it off as enlightenment as much as they like and swami doppelganger is restored to his rightful place on the podium in pune ..
                  we will use black magic if needs be!
                  truth is truth
                  lies are lies
                  there is no brian but brian
                  and brian is the only prophet
                  (who`s not making a prophet)

                • satyadeva says:

                  DR, you really are a hoot!

                  “hen peck mini” indeed – classic!

                  You’d be better employed figuring out the source of her chronically misplaced dissonance, how she’s always getting it wrong.

                  PS: As for your question, are you training for a career in the Sannyas SS, by any chance? You know, making a census of all citizens so you can eliminate the ‘undesirables’ when the ‘revolution’ comes…

            • Lokesh says:

              Genuine sannyasins? That is a new one. What do they look like? How do they speak? How do they smell? See you on the next thread.

  31. bodhi vartan says:

    Shantam, Indian men letch 24/7/365. Pakistanis are even worse. And I am not going to go into it because it’s not a nice subject. Just accept it. (Nudist camps my ass!!!!!!!!!!!!)

    • dominic says:

      Simply go to any free beach in India where there are white women, and watch indians perving, hassling, mas********g.
      The only time I’ve had to intervene in a group was when an indian kept touching a woman’s breasts and wouldn’t back off.
      As for Pakistanis….don’t get me started….

  32. swami satyam dhyanraj says:

    an answer to vartan from osho
    Beloved Osho
    For some tme now you have been saying that you are our friend and we are friends. Im having difficulty in truly getting it.
    Osho, to me you are my most beloved master. please show me where i am missing

    “The question is from Vivek.
    I can understand her difficulty.
    The same will be the difficulty of all those who have come close to me, loved me, received me in their hearts as a master.

    I have been saying that I am your friend, and you are my friend for a very strange reason that may not be obvious to you. There was another question from Milarepa — why are a few sannyasins feeling very resentful towards you, angry with you?

    This has been an historical thing, that amongst disciples there are always a few who are accidental. The wind was blowing this way and they arrived. They saw a tremendous energy in the disciples, and they became greedy. But it was not a search for truth, it was not a search for love; it was simple greed. They also wanted to be spiritually powerful.

    They became sannyasins, they became disciples, but the distance between me and them remained the same. They could never become my intimate people. They could never become my people. Even though they were with me, deep down they were resentful, angry. I wanted them to drop their resentfulness, to drop their anger. It was not my problem, it was their problem, and I wanted to help them in every possible way.

    It was for this simple reason that I had said, “I am your friend, you are my friend.” Those who were not really with me were immensely happy that now their status and my status was the same. And amongst these were people that you would never have imagined… Just the other day I had the message from a sannyasin that Teertha is saying to people that my state and his state are now the same — we are friends. For this he was hanging around for fifteen years. Rajen is saying to people, “Now I am no longer a disciple but a friend, and I have the same status.”

    These were the people that I wanted to get rid of as peacefully, as lovingly as possible.

    But those who had loved me felt hurt — because they have loved me as a disciple, and to be a disciple is something so valuable that who cares to be a friend? ”

    osho – beyond psychology – chapter 24 – whenever the ego gains you are the loser – full answer at

  33. dominic says:

    Once when I was in Auroville in india, I went to hear a talk by michael murphy in his 80′s, co-founder of esalen with dick price. While waiting for the talk to begin, the person sat next to me, introduced himself and asked me how I was and we started chatting. As the auditorium came to a hush, he then got up and gave the talk. What a nice guy I thought.
    On reflection the more ‘ordinary’ and genuinely friendly a guru/teacher/therapist is the more I’m impressed. The more they set themselves apart to be special or worshipped, the more of a turn-off it is, and the more I want to poke fun at them.

  34. prem martyn says:

    Diary of Swami Adrian Mole aged 50 something and a 1/4

    Last night I was really annoyed. I lost my temper.
    Apparently I might not be the right person to lose my temper.
    Once ,Jimmy Snodkins , whom I have known since we were in retreat together, ( ‘ retreat from everything stay at home’, his mum calls him ) also had a HUGE temper tantrum. Lost it completely. Luckily we found it. Later, much later lodged somewhere in his memory.
    It all started because someone had moved his favourite comic from the shelf where it was stacked in a pile , neatly, to the cupboard where he keeps his pens. Jimmy is still a bit touchy about it, which is very understandable as he hasn’t spent a long time , much at all, being familiar with himself. I mean in his life. It’s always good to put a time limit on things, otherwise they go on and on. Doesn’t he , eh ?
    So in those moments where he loses it, he finds he has what his mum calls the ‘inner demoniac ‘. Lose something finds something else. Isn’t life forgiving ? And full of variety ? And tempers.

  35. dominic says:

    This just in. Anand yogi bears all.
    Even more perfect reply comrade. Your Anal-ysis is red hot and giving me oshogasms. These traitorous osho haters are only depriving themselves of the divine nectar from swami rajneesh’s astral breast milk that could have saved them from a cockroach rebirth. I cannot rest until their disgraceful punditry has been exposed and the unconscious masses have embraced swami’s vision of a planet of red-bottomed apes.
    Poor mini, when i see her being bullied with her red baboon bottom, I must bring up the rear, for I cannot leave her behind alone.

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