Osho said in 1982 in an exchange with Devageet as recorded in the volume, “Books I have Loved” the following. (Of course the remark was directed specifically at Devageet so may be argued has no “general” force. However here at Sannyasnews we found it necessary of remark.)
“You have to listen to me, absolutely. It is a one way affair: I say, and you listen. I order you. There is no other way. When I am working on your soul do not disturb me. So listen and dont try to say anything to me because whatsoever you say is bullshit!”.
Of course Osho said many things, and we are sure that other quotes perhaps encouraging democratic discussion could be found. But it is clear that in some circumstances Osho did seem autocratic - and not unlike the encounter group leaders such as Veeresh and Teertha who worked under his guidance at that time. Was the intention of such autocracy the growth of disciples, or does it contain somewhere the remains of ego? Our further question is whether autocracy can ever be justified? perhaps to specific situations,etc. Otherwise Osho’s toughness here with his personal dentist might be deemed over the top, however their “relationship” was ordained.
Given Sannyasnews is a largely open board where discussion is encouraged and thought much more healthy than the ways of obedience, what say you our punters?
If I had thousands of followers I’d expect them to listen to me.
Not enough hours in the day to discuss everything with everybody.
(I say this from the experience of management, being the manger of a work place with eighty members of staff, and the final responsibility. Believe you me democracy doesn’t work in such situations. Sensitive, considered autocracy, which involves listening sometimes, not dictatorship is the only way to get anything done.
PS.
Zen masters would chuck people out of windows. Hardly democratic, and if Frank was one of my followers I’d chuck him out of a window as well.
Thus combining Tsar-zen practice with your love of sufi poetry, by making a kebab out of frank.
YES, but in a caring way.
of course its justified…
masters will always have to work on oursouls
and arpana,
when I`m working on your soul do not disturb me.so just listen and do not try to say anything to me because anything you say is just bullshit .
Pot. BLACK. kettle.
http://www.columbian.com/news/2011/aug/23/hot-dogging-the-frank/
Quoting the kebabmeister again…
“Close the language-door
and open the love-window.”
Out he goes…it’s a device isn’t it…tough love.
Alternatively hang the disciple/employee upside down by his ankles out the window chanting “Who’s your daddy, bitch?”
*Tsk tsk…Another 6 months of Dynamic meditation (german style) for you arps, for resistance to frank’s teaching.
But I already know how to prop up the corner of a bar on my elbow, with a pint, and quip all night.
R u sure?
A true ‘thirst’ for wisdom and connection to spirit (mine’s a double) takes lifetimes of inner work, after the ‘hunger’ for knowledge at the kebab temple with lashings of source.
its time to take your own enlightenment seriously arps.
although at times you do come over as fairly mindless,
you`re desperately holding onto your ego.
let go of it.
its a crap ego anyway.
you`ll be better off without it.
and your mind is just full of rubbish.
this is not my opinion but osho`s…
do you doubt the masters` words?
if you don’t doubt,then why are you not enlightened?
rotflmao
its time to take your own enlightenment seriously Frank.
You do come over as extremely mindful,
you`re desperately holding onto your ego.
let go of it.
its a crap ego anyway.
you`ll be better off without it.
and your mind is just full of rubbish.
Seemed like a promising bromance…
Ego…egoing… Egone…(e’ll be back!)
eel definitely be back
If you have earned the power and capability in your chosen field, you deserved to be listened with all ears and to bow down on all the knees.
Boyish man, the creator of facebook will expect the same from his staff.
With a Man like Osho it is even more subtle. Disciples have no right even to change one alphabet, it can disturb the whole decoding work.
Problem has arisen when chief surgeon is no more and janitors want to open and stitch the wounds.
Magic is lost!
Didn’t he call it an enlightened dictatorship?
Autocratic? Yes. Dysfunctional sometimes? Yes. In all of us? Yes.
Thought the quote might sound even more forceful in german, perhaps with three “OSHOS” shouted at the end.
“Sie müssen auf mich hören, Absolut….. Was auch immer sagen Sie, ist Schwachsinn!”
http://youtu.be/GxIQqLr2cF4
“Books I have Loved” was one of the volumes recited under nitrous and much in them has to be seen as the spirit riding unbridled (so to speak). Although Osho was autocratic the “You have to listen to me …” quote sounds like Osho on gear.
* * *
These days, I have seen it in a number of fields where the fans know more than the makers (of a product). A manufacturer might not be as obsessed with the product as the buyer/fan (fanatic). Today Osho wouldn’t have been able to get away with half the stuff he got away with then. hehe
Osho said, “You have to listen to me, absolutely. It is a one way affair: I say, and you listen. I order you. There is no other way. When I am working on your soul do not disturb me. So listen and dont try to say anything to me because whatsoever you say is bullshit!”.
I say that this was Osho’s general approach to anyone who came to sit at his feet. As far as it goes it is all good, but how far does it actually go? Up to the point that you no longer need an figure in your life who you believe knows what is best for you?
Osho said, ‘There is no other way.’ Sounds extremely limiting, but taken in context such a fixed attitude fits in the framework. If one steps into such a framework one has to play by the rules set down by the master or else there will be no game.
Osho said, ‘When I am working on your soul do not disturb me.’ This is classic guru rhetoric that could have been lifted out of Paramahansa’s ‘Autobiography of a Yogi’. How one takes such a declaration is entirely based on what one’s idea about what the word ‘soul’ represents. If one were to delve into what Osho said about the concept of soul I reckon you’d leave those waters none the wiser but realizing it’s simply easier to just live than think too much about such a mysterious matter. Do we have a a soul that needs working on? Where does personality end and soul begin? Who or what is it that entertains the soul? To what ends does it work to have a soul that’s been worked on? Are we on an endless journey of soul perfection? If we are already a Buddha but simply have not realized the fact why would it be necessary to work on a soul?
Questions, questions, questions. Sitting on a moss-covered granite boulder, situated in the heart of Scotland’s Royal Highlands, observing the antics of two young stags, patrolling the perimeter of a herd of about one hundred red deer, I noticed there was still snow on the peaks of some mountains in the background. The call of an excited kestral, hovering over a bend in a stream came to my ears. The wind picked up and blew all my thoughts away. There were no more questions. You know, most people really need to spend more time communing with nature. If they did the need for gurus, teachers and masters would decline, for nature can teach one everything there is to know. Sitting silently by the banks of a mountain stream. Brilliant!…as they say up in these parts.
” You know, most people really need to spend more time communing with nature. If they did the need for gurus, teachers and masters would decline, for nature can teach one everything there is to know”
So true the hovering kestrel doesn’t think,
“Since turning buddhist I can’t keep scoffing down these poor defenceless voles, I really must eat more grain and berries”
The stags don’t say,
“Guys guys, do we need to keep fighting over the girls. We really should do a men’s group and discover our soft vulnerable side.”
And so Hamish sat high in the highlands, lost in thought contemplating the meaning of life, on his smartphone. Then looking around he noticed he was surrounded by a pack of wolves. unperturbed he continued to remark,
“Even these wolves sit here silently, tamed by the power of my communion”.
Surprised he was then, to hear one say,
“No were not mate were just saying grace….
And that was the last we heard of Hamish Mcloud, living leg-end.
And the moral of the story is, nature only asks one question,
“Are you the dinner or the diner?”
Aye, Dominic, and thus the hunter was captured by the game.
Lokesh, I like what you have written here. Osho was playing a very funny joke on everyone. He was trying to move people out of their minds and into the moment. The things he said weren’t discussions or teachings, they were an attempt to trip up your mind so that you could stop identifying with your thoughts. Much of what he said, I believe, he said to create an effect in people, not as a rock-hard “truth” to be quoted and passed down forever. It was a performance, and a performer does not invite the audience to perform!
And yes, as soon as you get to the point where you create that gap between yourself as a witness and your mind, Osho is no longer necessary, except just because he is delightful. Yes, he was human, he made mistakes, he had an ego. If you don’t think he’s funny, if you don’t love his fragrance, why spend any time thinking of him at all? I think he would be the first to agree. The whole edifice he constructed was theater, it was a show, because people are asleep and without a show they don’t notice anything.
Furthermore, Osho gave everyone a great gift by messing up in Oregon. He showed himself to be human, so that we could not worship him as a god. In the end, being attached to Osho is just another trap. Whether this was his intention or not is just another language game. The universe is smarter than all of us, including Osho.
I’m probably not going to log into this site again, because it seems sort of silly. I will meditate instead. If you want to talk to me, that’s welcome and you can email me at cinerobert at gmail dot com.
In the mean time, everyone please take a giant shit into your pants. It will make you feel so much less tense. Especially if it runs down your leg into your shoe. Then your shoes will be squishy and will smell of shit, and you might forget to argue about Osho for awhile and live instead!
Good to see Lokesh again.
What so ever he writes may not be universal truth but surely there is a real man with real experience behind, how so ever limited experience it may be.
Any way is there some nut who claims he is almond, cashews and peanut all in one.
Real life is not a smart phone.
aye,man,he`s fockin` reel awrite,ye spit-roasted Sassenach fanny.
he eets pooridge uvry dee `n et stucks t`hus rubs,y`noo?
an he maight nort o` crack`d th` enlightenment game but dudja see him at the highland games?
I`ll wager yuv naiver seen anyone wi` a caber tha size o his .
an dudja see him toss it?
och,they dunna huv ought laik tha` un jullunda,awrite.
I think Shantam’s ‘currying’ favour though it reads like a backhanded compliment… “may not be universal truth…how so ever limited experience it may be.”
Some examples of backhanded compliments….
I always feel more intelligent after reading your thoughts and ideas.
Who knew someone could use language so creatively?
I’m sick of always reading things I can understand. Thanks for writing as you do.
Fascinating how you keep finding new things to say about the same old stuff.
You’ve made me feel psychic, I can predict what you’re going to say.
It is great to see your developing wit, now you’re halfway there.
(Just kidding of course!)
Shantam, their is no other electronic device on earth that succeeds in making human beings look more terrifyingly dumb than a smart phone.
Haha, universal truth, that’s a good one. Truth is specific and personal, not universal. Or is it? I don’t really know, but I sound important saying it, don’t I?
lokesh says.
“one has to play by the rules set down by the master or there will be no game”
that’s it.
that was the game that was.
question is
are you playing that game now?
who with? oshos `presence`?arun ?brian?the flying teapot club?the resort?or cohen?(they all use the same `my way or the highway` rhetoric)
if you`re not playing it ,then,
so what?
even the died in the wool catholic sannyasins are not playing the game any more. its just not possible,is it?
its all just memories bandied around in the orange sunshine old folks home….
or maybe its good as a sales blurb for a 7th level, 4th chakra 3rd ray 4th stone from the sun transsomatic topographic oceanic akashik blavatstik tripthelightfantastic healing session(TM) ?
Well, Frank, this song by the Byrds sums it up perfectly for me.
Oh I’d rather go and journey where the diamond crest is flowing and
Run across the valley beneath the sacred mountain and
Wander through the forest
Where the trees have leaves of prisms and break the light in colors
That no one knows the names of
And when it’s time I’ll go and wait beside a legendary fountain
Till I see your form reflected in it’s clear and jewelled waters
And if you think I’m ready
You may lead me to the chasm where the rivers of our vision
Flow into one another
I will want to die beneath the white cascading waters
She may beg, she may plead, she may argue with her logic
And then she’ll know the things I learned
That really have no value in the end she will surely know
I wasn’t born to follow
you old hippie,you.
I wonder if osho ever watched “easy rider”?
it would have provided a different possibility on the direction of the ranch than “patton”!
Well, Osho did claim to be the ultimate hippy and therefore he must have seen Easy Rider, or that would meant he was lying….and Osho always told the truth, didn’t he?
The Trip (1967, written by Jack Nicholson) was the definitive hippie film (also with Pete and Den) … and the precursor to Easy Rider (1969) which was the same team doing their biker/rocker act.
I know Osho saw Woodstock (1969).
Osho worked on my soul.
It worked.
My mind is so quiet now,that most people who know me wonder if its functioning at all.
Definitely a success story.
Yahoo!
A success story? I’m not sure if I would agree with that.
You can use your mind to talk to others but you don’t have to listen to it yourself. The mind is like a knife. You can use it to cut things but don’t cut yourself with it.
My mind is so loud, most people don’t realize that it’s not really me.
Come back when you are you. I thought you weren’t going to come back to the board because it is silly. And you were going to meditate about us shiting in our shoes and stuff, what happened?
You can use sillyness as a meditation … trust me, it’s much more fun meditating with others than doing it alone.
Your Soul (Self) is my Soul (Self) – my Soul is your Soul, hence the whole is him self, all of one self.
Healing – Meditation – Soul, realizing our meeting place… something higher teaches Love, it makes one self understanding that truth, how, – important serving.
I hear you,bro.
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.
I`m like you,sitting on a cornflake waiting for the van to come.
Floating in a golden cornflake, believe you. Dear you, naughty humorous guy
“Naughty humorous guy”….. nailed it! (goo goo g’joob)
Now What osho really said to devageet was,
“Do not disturb me, when i am working, you are soul. ”
Was the commune an autocrazy run by a teadespot cosy, or a teat-totaller who liked large norks .Was it a sacred cow that we worshipped or even a load of bullocks? Stay tuned while we find out.
Now the thing is a lot of people are confused and the rest not sure, leading to noclear fusion. This is a very unstable situation and can result in a lot of guru/disciple meltdowns.
‘My house, my rules’ worked well in the past but newclear fusion requires renewable thought.
So let’s let bhagwans be bhagwans, and try the new selfsave checkout service.
Right on the money with that one, Dominic.
Thx Lokesh, I’m a big fan too. Which is really useful cos it’s soo hot at the moment!
At this time of the year in northern Scotland it does not get completely dark. I was outside last night long after midnight and the sky was flouro-blue. Is this in any way symbolic?
,.- L _^-,
,.-’^OV ,-^ ^-,\
,.-’^ E A ,.-^ \|
\ ND ,.-^ k
\,.-^ i
ss
es
Yes it is. You are progressing with kumareji’s blue light meditation. You’re not doing it…it’s doing you.
Your life is becoming one long blue movie with blue sky thinking. Once in a blue moon is turning into everyday. Everything is just appearing out of the blue, including krishna.
As a blue-collar blue-eyed boy you’ll be singing the blues till you’re blue in the face in no time.
(But don’t scream blue murder or the boys in blue will be after you like a blue-arsed bluebottle fly.)
Oh yeah…life is Bluetiful! Blessings.
Ah Kumareji’s blue light….I have only glimpsed it once…dancing with my pals in front of Lenny Kravitz and his band last summer…my head it exploded in very lovely smithereens and oh golly blue light is arriving. Fortunately my head is reassembling in time for drive home in the dark.
His blessings…
Driving home late, should you see another blue light that flashes and makes a loud siren noise don’t attempt to become one with it. Pull over, take a nap.You don’t want to be had for resisting a rest.
any which way , guru / anti guru /teacher / master / self taught , democratic / autocratic etc , there is no way out of this just nowclear fusion !
dominic,
who is dominic, is he a self help guru Vasant Swaha?
dominic, is he a she, let us say wise woman from Germany Pyar”, the doctor woman famous for Satsanglogy?
when some one writes utter crap or someone writes wisdom from the blue, it always makes me curious, who is this person, how old he is, how he looks and whether he is a office type reading sannyasnews from the government coputer?
“selfsave checkout service”, who knows this becomes the buzz phrase of future spirituality. World would like to know the Franz Kafka of our time.
Franz Kafka of our time? Most humbly suggesting that his holiness Shantypanties is reading Haruki Murakami’s 19Q4.
Are you misspelling on purpose, you rotter?
1Q84
Don’t you just hate Qs?
Qua are good.
Qi not too bad either.
“God gives the nuts, but he does not crack them.” ~ Franz Kafka
Aah Franz…Kaf…Ka … I see what you did there, FKK-ing around again. Subliminal but brilliant.
As a Nuddhist you are not at all clothes-minded and seeking only the naked truth. You must be familiar with Lord Nuddhas four Knoble truths and his three jewels, the Nuddha, the Dongma and the Shangha.
But his greatest teaching must be the Deflower Sermon.
Toward the end of his life, the Nuddha took his disciples to a quiet lake for instruction. As they had done so many times before, the Nuddha’s followers sat in a small circle around him, and waited for the teaching.
But this time the Nuddha had no words. He reached into his pants and pulled out his transmission and laid them it on a banana leaf.
The disciples were greatly confused. Nuddha quietly displayed it to each of them. In turn, the disciples did their best to expound upon the meaning of it: what it symbolized, and how it fit into the Nuddha’s teaching.
When at last the Nuddha came to his follower Mahaguessyourpa, the disciple suddenly understood. He smiled, began to laugh, and fell into Knobmind.
“What can be said I have said to you,” smiled the Nuddha, “and what cannot be said, I have given to Mahaguessyourpa.”
From that day on he became the Nuddha’s successor.
I am now humble follower of Nuddha and his great teaching.
Yes, FKK not solved unto one self. Who still wears pants instead nappy? Of course, Hunter and Gatherer’s still seek individual immortality and hedge the money before Yama with false teachings and fiendish structures.
You are to SN what jabberwocky is to english literature. Thanks for writing as you do.
look,dom…
if you can`t see that hunters and gatherers still seek individual immortality and hedge the money before yama with false teachings and fiendish structures,then you simply havent been paying attention…
wake up and smell the semolina pilchards climbing up the eifel tower,man….
its obvious.
preet am the walrus.
ooo coo caajoo
Lol frank!
I do need to get with the program!
Bloody ‘ell, it’s elementary penguins when you think about it.
I’ve been a ‘naughty humourous’ boy and let my nickers down (just like a crabalocker fishwife) ….thx for anskewering the fraggle.
Strawberry fields 4ever
Just waiting for the, er, ‘Pornographic Priestess’ to enter the debate…
Oh, hang on, I do believe I can hear Shantam busy tapping away at his keyboard…
While the Egg Man – that’s Preetam, by the way – seems lost for words….
I’m irritated now SD. Just intend to be funny and found it a good word choice and aptly.
Take it easy, Preetam, no need to be so er, ‘hard-boiled’.
Although your English is rather ‘scrambled’ at times.
nothing to get hungabout!
At the time of recession, no money to join some group, please avail the services of Sannyasnews.
Express yourself, give voice to your soul.
Don’t feel asamed, once in a while gold sutras will come out, it is like cloud watching.
Only draw back is you won’t find someone who looks in your eyes and says, ” You are my poet or my poetry.”
shantam Prem says:
>> Only draw back is you won’t find someone who looks in your eyes and says, ” You are my poet or my poetry.”
Don’t get your sutras in a twist. The “slugging off” is the British way of accepting you. If they didn’t like you, the would have ignored you … or run away (remember what they did to Swami Brian?).
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
“Only draw back is you won’t find someone who looks in your eyes and says, ” You are my poet or my poetry.”
Can you trust pretty thief to steal old yearning disability? Recession bites and draws out mirror poetry. Looking without looking, Osho is everywhere.
also at this time of recession,no money to go banghofstrasse please avail the services of large drawback in chuddies.
dont be ashamed every once in a while some nectar is coming out of drawback even if it is not as large as elephant god ganesh drawback.
a peanut is not a smart phone!
The new iPeanutphone. It didn’t seem possible!
The thinnest, lightest, smallest phone ever.
Superfast nutwork connection. Outstanding buttery life.
New crisp dry-roasted display.
So good you’ll be spreading it around.
Available in smooth and crunchy flavours.
* May cause allergies.
This would be fun…
Powered by “World Commune Trust” – 3 day’s “Commune reunion Festival” – at Scotland Highlands
“Commune Trust”
Two words that should never go together. This would be dys’fun’sional
Eureka Eureka , probably there is a way out ! only for the choZen few !
Che vita Zenorita! You’re on a roll. “Eureka Eureka”…time for a shower then (you reek-a). The way out? Thru the gifts of preZense.
yes Mar…Zmellow , Zenow dominic !
Zensational. Zenow for ze unchozen many!
zenow is upcoming for some & ongoing for some , Zumadhi eventually !
Zoomadhi for the animals.
Snowtori for the froZen few.
Nearfarna for the confused.
Possible signs of an Autocrazy*.
-New designer robes. Only worn by prophet. Think Star wars meets Gandalf.
- White robe muslim brotherhood. You have been captured and sat in front of a huge screen for the rest of your stay. The prophet rambles on soporifically for hours every evening while you sit on a cold hard marble floor catching a cold. You cannot move, sleep, sneeze, cough, or have a toilet break (though you manage to fart very quietly). At the end you must carry an expression of beatific bliss (masking your relief).
- Marooned robe. You now worship at the commune, cleaning toilets all day as meditation. You must appear surrendered and grateful at all times.
- Black robe. You have been elevated to the status of ninja priest. You have acquired supernatural powers and insight into others’ souls. Also black is very slimming.
-Brown clothes. Colour of s…, nuff said.
*This will never change.
have you noticed that the leader of the muslim brotherhood in egypt that they are arresting is called
mohammed baddie?
who writes this stuff?
god….if you`re up there…
you`re taking the piss,mate.
like freddie M said
“is this the real life
is this just fantasy?
Yeah you couldn’t make it up.
MohamMad Baddie…well stone me…no please don’t.
No more morsi either, maybe they’re on a city break in Islam..a..bad..
Osho on the koran..(I wonder what he’d be saying today)
“Muslims have been asking me, “Why don’t you speak on the Koran? You have spoken on The Bible, on the Gita, this and that.” ……now I have to say that it is all rubbish, that is why I have not spoken on it — because why unnecessarily waste time?”
Halal Humour. Be here now. Be at the mosque later. If shit happens, blame Israel.
If shi’ite happens is raeli bad.
Better i ran away!
The Army Leader’s called General Fatah Sisi…haha.
Off-duty breaks with the guys in La hore? That’s between Iraq and a hard place, where there’s a telly ban (taliban).
Shantam,
Who is shantam?
Is he Selfsave service checkout seeking missionary position for quick buzzphrase, without newage ethereal disease and swaha-ing?
Or Franz Kofta (with pilau rice) giving fast masala massage to Hurry Krishna now getting poked on facebook.
A feelgood choice and Magic.
Enough for today.
When I am working on your soul do not disturb me – Osho
That was in 1982
Just 20 years later-
OSho we need to work on your Soul to make it socially compatible.
Now Tao is complete!
That’s Taorrible. Are you saying that OSho’s OS was edited from early 2000 for marketing reasons? Expound.
What is sooo good about sn is that here are NO news about groups.. It makes me feel osho is other things in life too. Aaahhh
There are no new messages. SN is working on your soul. Do not disturb.
We order you. So listen and dont try to say anything because whatsoever you say is bullsssittt.
[While a new tasty bone is being prepared for the hippie campers (hippocampus)]
Not so much on topic here! Speaking personally I feel that “zen” autocracy was of another age, over one thousand years ago. Who knows what the presuppositions of those living were then, but certainly any democracy had never been heard of then, and its obvious fruits for human life – and the human spirit were unknown.
I am not sure what Osho was doing in the nitrous sessions, (and agree with Vartan that needs to be taken into account as the background for the string leader quote). I am also not sure what he was trying to do with Devageet in replicating such old fashioned zen – but it is not for me.
Let’s not forget ‘democracy’ (the very word is from ancient Greek) in 5th and 6th century BC Athens. ie 2500 years ago, the original model for our present system.
Also worth bearing in mind is De Tocqueville’s famous 19th century declaration: “Democracy is the tyranny of the majority!”
And Disraeli’s “Now we must educate our masters!” (note the, er, lower case ‘m’ there!) following a radical (at that time) 1870′s Act of Parliament that gave many more people the right to vote in Britain.
Here’s some background notes on ancient Greek democracy:
Estimates of the population of ancient Athens vary. During the 4th century BC, there may well have been some 250,000–300,000 people in Attica. Citizen families may have amounted to 100,000 people and out of these some 30,000 will have been the adult male citizens entitled to vote in the assembly. In the mid-5th century the number of adult male citizens was perhaps as high as 60,000, but this number fell precipitously during the Peloponnesian War. This slump was permanent due to the introduction of a stricter definition of citizen described below. From a modern perspective these figures may seem small, but in the world of Greek city-states Athens was huge: most of the thousand or so Greek cities could only muster 1000–1500 adult male citizens and Corinth, a major power, had at most 15,000 but in some very seldom cases more.
The non-citizen component of the population was divided between resident foreigners (metics) and slaves, with the latter perhaps somewhat more numerous. Around 338 BC the orator Hyperides (fragment 13) claimed that there were 150,000 slaves in Attica, but this figure is probably not more than an impression: slaves outnumbered those of citizen stock but did not swamp them.[citation needed].
Citizenship in Athens
Only adult male Athenian citizens who had completed their military training as ephebes had the right to vote in Athens. The percentage of the population that actually participated in the government was about 20%.[citation needed] This excluded a majority of the population, namely slaves, freed slaves, children, women and metics.[clarification needed] The women had limited rights and privileges and were not really considered citizens. They had restricted movement in public and were very segregated from the men.
Also excluded from voting were citizens whose rights were under suspension (typically for failure to pay a debt to the city: see atimia); for some Athenians this amounted to permanent (and in fact inheritable) disqualification.
Parmartha says:
>> Speaking personally I feel that “zen” autocracy was of another age, over one thousand years ago.
I have recently heard of quasi-religious quasi-martial-art ‘temples’ in the far east practicing extreme regimes today and with what I see around, it appears that more ppl seem prefer structures, to freedom (probably ideas just go round and round).
>> I am also not sure what he was trying to do with Devageet in replicating such old fashioned zen – but it is not for me.
It think it was old-fashioned wind-up on Osho’s part. Osho spoke a lot of bollocks to a lot people. You just need to know what is for you. For me his last and biggest wind-up on us (and Shantam) is Jayesh. The longer I look at Jayesh the more I am beginning to consider the possibility that Sheela (after all) might have been a wind-up on us.
I have not been present at any physical events of osho’s , in any case on a serious note , I often ponder if ZEN had any connection with the Japanese seeress’s visit to Poona ?
actually as of now I don’t see myself fitting in any discipline , just like probably many / few .
. . . . . if emphasis on ZEN . . . . .
a master have the right to give order to the disciple,and the disciple has to follow,since volountarly he had give authority on him to his master.
There are certain things that we are not able to see about ourself,therefore someone else on the out side who have better view than us is necessary.Necessary is also some degree of obbedience and even submission to the will of the master,because usually when certain kind of things about ourself tend to com out,we don’t like it and we tend to escape,or to put blame on sombody/something outside.
Problem arise when the master start to make mistake.Yes the Master sometime make mistake,please allow this simple fact.
A self-proclamed enlightened master like Osho,never had a master for him self(or at least this is what he say the most),so this mean,while he was preaching discipline for his neo-sanyasin,he probably at some point failed on disciplining himself.
Osho was a human being.He made mistakes.When his power over thousands of rich educated westerners start to become famous around the world he probably get cheated from his own ego.
And yes,it was a lesson,it was basically the best rappresentation of the religious mind of humanity,on how every pedestall soon or late will go down in the mud.
The only thing that can save us is awarness.To be counscious of this mechanism,that he have described and explained so well,when talking about the other religions,cult leader,politicians,etc……but he failed on apply the same on himself.
It’s a good thing he failed, otherwise we might end up worshipping him! And arguing about him on chat boards. Wait….
YS, change your mind, and keep the change.