When I was near about 28 I arrived off the road into Pune one. Even now some of the old songs of that time are deep in my unconscious. I find myself singing them out of joy in the street, in the park, or on the allotments. One of them was “Just say yes”. For someone like me, at the time a recent philosophy student, who even felt that Descartes chickened out of universal doubt by embracing that ridiculous statement “I think, therefore I am” – the lyrics were at odds with the underbelly of joy that seemed to fill the old meditation place when they were sung.
Later when I was a commune member the refrain was the same but much more difficult. Whenever resistance came up those who were further up the hierarchy would say “just say yes” – to any instruction – even if clearly irrational. This attitude I later thought was the core reason why the communes failed… saying yes to non-meditators in the commune hierarchy was the end of it.
So I was interested to see recently that David Icke flirts with Osho and seems to like the old man. But what does he really know? One thing that he quotes from Osho is the danger of positive thinking! – which I also quote below. But what amazes me is that whilst Osho was criticising positive thinking as simplistic, and a con, those of us who took the robe either never seemed to hear his words, or if we did were shown the door when echoing the same vein of criticism to commune leaders… Parmartha
The Osho Quote is below
“The philosophy of positive thinking means being untruthful; it means being dishonest. It means seeing a certain thing and yet denying what you have seen; it means deceiving yourself and others.
Positive thinking is the only bullshit philosophy that America has contributed to human thought – nothing else. Dale Carnegie, Napoleon Hill, and the Christian priest, Vincent Peale – all these people have filled the whole American mind with this absolutely absurd idea of a positive philosophy.
And it appeals particularly to mediocre minds.
Dale Carnegie’s book, How to Win Friends and Influence People, has been sold in numbers just next to the Christian Bible. No other book has been able to reach that popularity.
The Christian Bible should not be a competitor in fact, because it is more or less given free, forced on people. But Dale Carnegie’s book people have been purchasing; it has not been given to you free. And it has created a certain kind of ideology which has given birth to many books of a similar kind. But to me it is nauseating.
… Dale Carnegie started this whole school of positive philosophy, positive thinking: Don’t see the negative part, don’t see the darker side. But by your not seeing it, do you think it disappears? You are just befooling yourself. You cannot change reality. The night will still be there; you can think that it is daytime for twenty-four hours, but by your thinking it, it is not going to be light twenty-four hours a day.
The negative is as much part of life as the positive. They balance each other.
After Dale Carnegie, the great name in the tradition of this positive thinking is Napoleon Hill. Think and Grow Rich is his greatest contribution to the world – a beautifully written book, but all crap.
Think and grow rich… you don’t have to do anything, you only have to think in absolutely positive terms and riches will start flowing towards you. If they don’t come, that simply means that you have not been thinking absolutely positively. ”
When Osho spoke above quoted words, they were sounding quite divine.
Now with the passage of time, when thousands of people have chewed His own words, one gets a little skeptical about Osho´s criticism about all that which was available in the market.
With little bit of observation, one can also see, how pick and choose words of positive energy are pasted by Osho´s own people.
Was Osho a developer of new kind of chewing gum?
Yet on a postive note, I feel always amazed how most of the people who have remained uncorrupted by the wisdom, have grown into inner richness oozing out from their auras.
I think yes, say yes, lover Parmartha is one such a being.
David Icke? As it happens I am familiar with him. From a distance. His messages are not too bad but…a couple of years ago he was giving one of his 8 hour talks, with the queues going round the blocks. Well, I studied the queues (on You Tube) and I would say that 95% of them were not our kind of people. If he is quoting Osho it’s because he is trying to attract Osho people rather than because he is capable of being influenced by Osho. There were some long Osho threads on the DI forum some years back but it was just sannyasins trying to push their religion and the anti-cultists posting their wares.
Vartan
I don’t disagree with anything you are saying, Parmartha. Positive Thinking, or Daydreaming, is something that people just like to do. They often try to get me into their “What would you do if you win the lottery?” games. It’s an emotional release mechanism that has been made into a philosophy by corrupt people.
The problem with “just say yes” is not with the statement but the corrupt people wielding it. It’s not very often I disagree with Osho but recently I was listening to him (I think it was in The Last Testament) saying that corruption is in all of us and power brings it to the surface. Well, I disagree. It is the corrupt who wiggle themselves to the top positions aided and abetted by other corrupt people on the way. This I not only read about but I have also seen it around me.
I work in an industry that has a lot of stunning women and when I happen to befriend them I always tell them not to pick men from the first row because they got there by pushing their way to the front.
I have tested myself and I am totally corruptible, so I have always stayed away from positions of power, as I like my sleep too much.
The real lesson is “know thyself” and don’t make the same mistake twice. I am mumbling now.
Vartan
I appreciated your reply Vartan. not in itself what you said, but the melody of it.
SN people in London (like myself), have never come across you, we understand you are Greek origin and live in London?
Parmartha says:
I appreciated your reply, Vartan. not in itself what you said, but the melody of it.
SN people in London (like myself), have never come across you, we understand you are of Greek origin and live in London?
I am very good at hiding. Hehe. On a serious note, yeah, I’ve been about. I used to go to the Body Centre and spend weekends at Medina.
I was brought up as a Greek because just after the independence conflict in Cyprus (in the ‘50-‘60s) it wasn’t good form to be speaking English. Osho did say that there are only two minds in the world, Indian and Greek, and I know what he meant. In ancient Greek, God is ‘the giver of names’. First, you have to make things, before you can name them thus, placing creativity at the top of the list. My favourite word that doesn’t exist in English is thambos, which describes the feeling one has in the presence of the divine.
I was totally blown when Osho went to Crete. I have a huge soft spot about Crete and the gynocentric Minoan period, which I have studied and written articles about. Did you know that the Minoans had no weapons? They were operating a system called Peer Politi Interaction, which I will condense into, “Who impresses whom and how”, as a method of progress.
Enough of all that. This is my ugly boat (my legal name is John Douglas, I just didn’t want to openly post it there).
http://www.meetup.com/Osho-Meditation-Camp-in-London/members/65102212/
So forgive my poor English, as it is not my first language. These days, my speaking-Greek is not that good either.
Vartan
Vartan,
You don’t write psychobabble and I did watch the recent Sheela interviews. One wonders how literally one should take her words when she refers to ‘Bhagwan’ and Vivek as drug addicts. She acknowledges his genius but states his vision is being distorted.
You point out in your post that you have a soft spot for the ‘gynocentric Minoan period’ which you have written about. You go on to say ‘that the Minoans had no weapons. They were operating a system called Peer Politi Interaction’ meaning ‘Who impresses whom and how’, as a method of progress.’
So do you have some nostalgia for the past? Was Minoan culture matrilineal and what went wrong? If matriarchal societies did exist, did they destruct from within or due to outside forces, or both. I’ve also been interested in this area of study for many years and have discussed the topic with people writing and doing research in this field.
It is interesting that Osho in the Tantric Vision series spends some time pointing out the destructiveness of patriarchal cultures and the virtues of fatherless societies. Osho wasn’t a scholar in this area but his comments were provocative at the time. A book titled, ‘The Fear of Women – An inquiry into the enigma of Woman and why men through the ages have both loved and dreaded her’, by Wolfgang Lederer, draws on archaeology and many other fields to try to explain the fear. He points out that historically, patriarchy hasn’t been around very long compared to thousands of years of matriarchy. The study is an important one. Any thoughts?
Finally, it terms of living creatively, an ex female sannyasin, Elizabeth Puttick, has written a book titled ‘Women in New religions – In search of community, sexuality and spiritual power’ (Palgrave Macmillan 1997). She was around in the old days and points out the benefits of being around Osho and how her life was enriched. She has since turned to worshipping female deities.
“She has since turned to worshipping female deities.”
Wonder why I found myself bursting into laughter reading that last sentence…?!
Satyadeva,
Only you can answer that.
Well, Roman, I was struck by an absurdity I preceived, I guess…Broadly akin to a ‘Private Eye’ spoof article ending in something like; ‘EJ Thribb is 75′….
Ok, ‘whatever turns you on’, or ‘whatever works for you’…And no one can say what’s good or right for anyone else, fair enough. But “worshipping female deities”? Resorting to imagination – is that the best she can manage? After enjoying being a sannyasin?!
Sounds like a sort of self-created therapy, at best.
Satyadeva, If Barry works for you why can’t the return of the Goddess work for her?
Perhaps you should re-read my post, Roman? I made it clear, didn’t I, ‘different strokes…’ etc?
For one thing, BL was a real man, addressing real issues for the people of his time – us. Not a product of someone’s or some collective’s imagination, upon which one may project anything one wishes – and, of course, never receive any challenging feedback.
Perhaps imagination is reality?
If that were the case, Roman, there would probably be vast numbers of ‘enlightened’ people in the world.
In the world of the human psyche, that aspect of reality, it has its place, sure. Useful tool too, probably, for various therapeutic enterprises.
Except that worry, of course, is a form of imagination, isn’t it? Not so valuable then, perhaps.
If “imagination is reality”, how come it was never part of Osho’s meditations, for example?
Sorry Roman, I totally missed this section of the thread.
Sheela: Going by the evidence, Osho and Sheela had substance issues but what I object to is the fact that she calls “her friend” an addict after he has left his body. A great friend she is. As for Vivek, I also know she had substance issues, but her real problem was that she was a clinically manic depressive (very similar to Kurt Cobain). Sannyas wasn’t good for her as she had nil spiritual inclinations.
The Minoans: Me, nostalgia for the past? Gynocentric environments were awful to men. What they were practising was the equivalent to “husbandry” (interesting word). From my research, the practice of circumcision is a relic of the castrations that were taking place in older times.
I don’t like the word matriarchy because it views the issue from a male viewpoint, of archons. Yes, the Minoans were matrilineal, and so were Amazons of northern Turkey just to mention another group you may know. The end of the Minoans came with the explosion of Thera around 1600BC, but not before they passed much of their knowledge to the priestesses of the Mycenaean proto-Greeks.
There was a war against women that lasted around three-thousand years. This war also included propaganda, traces of which you see in the Odyssey (the cheeky Greek, Zorba prototype) with Ulysses’s travels, and his encountering all those nasty witchy queendoms around 1100BC.
Check the dates on this baby: National Geographic – Lost Civilization
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Divine Women E1 When God Was A Girl (p1) … (Gobekli Tepe: 5 minutes in)
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I have done tons of original research that I need to put down. If you want to discuss any of this further we should perhaps do it through private email so as not to bore the forum.
Vartan
Vartan,
Nice post on Minoans. So the patriarchal age starts when Zeus gives birth to Athene out of his head. You know what I mean. Castration rituals and the Kali cult is also an interesting one.
By the way, I mentioned in my post on Zizek, that Lacan and Osho have been compared to each other. Lacan never wrote, just lectured and was a kind of shaman. The rich paid, and so they should. Lacan no Osho though. Also, there’s more to Zizek than just performance and jokes. Take care.
The Minoans, eh?
That was a load of bull, too!
Yeah, but Minotaur comics are great. Full of brilliant insights.
Roman says:
Also, there’s more to Zizek than just performance and jokes.
I know, but he is refusing to construct “a system” so all we are going on is talk. I know that he is a Stalinist…As it happens, I am just going through “Communism And Zen Fire, Zen Wind” and it looks like Osho turned Stalinist. I feel that Zizek and Osho have not given enough thought about the strength of the Orthodox Church is Russia.
Frank says: The Minoans, eh?
That was a load of bull, too!
What do you mean? The Hindus are still into cows. Cows are it.
Vartan
What is a Stalinist in the 21st century?
Is it safe to accept a dinner invitation from one or can I expect to end up hanging from a meathook by coffee time?
Btw, has Slavjob got issues with caffeine or something?
I`ve seen more chilled-out looking guys who`ve just jacked up a pile of crystal meth!
Thanks for your reply, Vartan, have not been here for a few days.
Parmartha says:
Thanks for your reply, Vartan, have not been here for a few days.
I remember going into a Greek shop in the ’80s as a full sannyasin with a mala and this old Greek lady wanted to kiss me because she thought the picture of Osho was Makarios.
Vartan
Vartan, you really are trying to stir the pot. Osho a Stalinist? You know there are admirers of Churchill (who admired Mussolini) and Thatcher reading these posts. Amazing how some think Churchill saved the world. Hasn’t anyone read E.P.Thompson’s ‘The History of the English Working Class’?
The guy who edited the Rajneesh Chronicles checks the site out regularly. I also believe there are spies spreading disinformation about Osho. We have ‘nappy gurus’ promoted. I think it is a two-for-one deal. You say something bad about Osho and something good about a chuddie and you get two pairs of chuddies from the Chuddie Foundation. It will all work out though. As Trotsky said, ‘You can go to the dustbin of history.’
Remember, the earliest written records of Gautama are 500 years after his death. We have a long way to go. Once things heat up in the world, all South-East Asia will embrace Osho. It is revenge against Western Imperialism. Sannyas has already spread to China, North Korea will go.
As for the Orthodox Church, I do love Rachmaninoff’s Vespers, I’m not just into cowboy music, but that will go once a few Osho photos start circulating. Remember Nicholas and Alexandra fell for Rasputin and he’s not in Osho’s league. A disembodied Osho will make his way along the trans-Siberian railway. Conversion is easy as you know. It happened to Julia instanteously just like the woman in that ‘chuddie’ clip we were posted. This time there won’t be any hysteria, no crying, she’ll just melt into Papa. It will be authentic. As for the Winstons, there is Room 101.
Finally, Zizek isn’t a Stalinist but he has a large photo of Stalin in the entrance hall to keep idiots away. It works perfectly. Zizek does admire Lenin and Trotsky. Remember Lenin’s ‘What’s to be done?’: ‘Give me a handful of revolutionaries and I’ll change the world.’ Now Osho read a bit in this area. There is no use calling yourself a Marxist these days, because that is tame. Those at the stock exchange read Marx and use his ideas whilst fools do their crystal healing. Calling yourself a Communist still packs a punch. I guess saying you are a Stalinist can infuriate.
Thanks for the gynocracy clips. By the way, did you know that the guy who invented ‘Wonder Woman’ was into the Goddess Artemis. Didn’t that take off? Osho comics could be the go.
Frank,
Zizek and Jack were close. ‘My name is Jack and I live in the back of the Greto Garbo home for wayward boys and girls. And here comes friend with a big head, here comes Salvo who think he’e thrown the bomb’.
Osho knew what to do when in a bit of pain. A few valium, no standing on your head like those dumb yogis, and a comfortable Rolls Royce.
Em…er…think positive! It’s a joke, because what might seem positive to one will seem negative to another.
Hitler thinks gassing Jewish people is a great idea…many agree…many more don’t, especially Jews.
Osho changes your name, tells you to wear orange and a mala. You think you’ve been reborn into a new, more positive life. Your friends back home think you’ve gone nuts.
Charles Ponzi dreams up a fraudulent investment scheme. At first, the investors think it’s the best thing that’s happened to them, until the reality kicks in.
I visualize myself winning Euromillions, and how I’d help others if I win. Positive thinking is all it takes. Meanwhile, the fickle goddess of Fate thinks otherwise.
Osho is right in saying it appeals particularly to mediocre minds.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to go out and do my Euromillions. It’s a massive rollover jackpot and I just know I’m going to win. 100,000,000 Euros. And it’s mine, all mine.
Actually, I do not ask, but conceptual positive thinking provokes, asking me the other way round…What – according to highest Truth – is Negativity? If I don’t know truth, how do I know the negative? A way of finding it out…Finding one’s self, positive will become obvious.
Is it really so hard to perceive negativity? How about anger, jealousy, fear, self-contempt, for example?
What chance of finding “highest Truth” if these still prevail in the self?
Satyadeva, you wanted to point at, before we have anger, jealousy, fear and self-worth dissolved, no self- realizing will be possible. I’m not one with that. If one can catch the right climate, it will happen. It’s a negative belief for me, if first you have to be virtue and after you become highest virtue.
Remember the card from the Transformation Tarot of Mansoor. Just one Finger was left, but the right climate made it immediately happen. Otherwise, one makes it almost impossible for him becoming one elf. Perhaps off, realizing the highest Truth, slowly anger, jealousy, fear, melt like snowflakes because of realizing something higher.
It’s not so much “becoming” anything, Preetam, more a letting-go of all that negative stuff.
That, plus meditation, or rather, a meditative life. For what is a meditative life if it doesn’t imply renouncing those destructive habits (as that’s what they are, aren’t they?)? That’s how one creates “the right climate” you mention above, isn’t it?
My Viewpoint, “the right climate” is result of our Meditation becoming intimate with “let go, or for me, giving up”. Basically, nothing has to be done in advance, it is our true nature. Just too much peripheries, rationality and a subtle inferiority complex of many Meditators makes it invisible for the three eyes. Meditation is not of becoming better, that is angular. Meditation is for remembering our self, our truth, to acquaint oneself with that climate.
Satyadeva,
We know one can be passionate about things and one can be in a passion. Unfortunately, our emotions can rule us in a destructive manner. However, anger and outrage can be very important. I remember Osho being in jail and he seemed pretty angry when interviewed. He seemed to be angry when Mukta was manhandled by the police in Greece. He also expressed outrage at the police station. Aristotle wrote about anger as a virtue. Outrage at social injustice is highly desirable. We all know Blake’s, ‘I was angry with my friend, I told my wrath, my wrath did end.’
I don’t have to go on about fear, enough good books have been published on the subject. It doesn’t have to mean cowardice and certainly isn’t foolhardy. It is important for survival.
Perhaps we need a deeper sketch for the emotions? You only mentioned a few. Can jealousy or envy be useful? We know Shakespeare was great on jealousy. Othello comes to mind. We live in a theatre of envy. Can envy help us? Does it always lead to resentment? Can one envy someone for their wonderful qualities and be inspired to change for the better? The origins of self-contempt are important. Self-contempt can stem from prejudice based on being victimised for one’s class, race or gender. The anatomy of prejudices is an interesting study.
I would like to know what you mean by the ‘highest truth’ and perhaps, seeing we are playing with words, you could also tell me the self that is left once purged of all these ‘negative’ emotions. I know you aren’t advocating a purging like the Catholic monks of old.
Well, Roman, of course there can be positive uses of anger, as you outline, but it depends where one is coming from, I guess. I’d imagine (as I don’t know about anyone else, just myself) that well over 90% of everyone’s anger is more or less a ‘robotic’ reaction, stemming from some sort of perceived ‘insult’ to one’s self – or rather, self-image – including any circumstances that don’t go ‘our way’, of course (as if they ever ‘should’!).
Anger at social injustice can be healthy, agreed, as long as it doesn’t degenerate into a chronic condition where it sort of ‘rules’ the personality, rather than simply being a rational response to a situation.
Fear is healthy, as you say, for survival purposes, and as such it’s not really of the person, is it, more of the organism?
Of course I’m not including that in my list of ‘emotional negatives’, it’s the fear that ‘enslaves’ and unnecessarily restricts the person that I mean. Thought that would have been pretty obvious.
And that’s closely connected to self-contempt, isn’t it?
Sure, self-hatred etc. can and mostly does originate from how we’ve been treated in our formative years, but as you surely know, in the end only we can undo its harm. So ultimately it doesn’t really matter where it comes from, does it?
As for jealousy and envy, I can hardly see any real use for these, I think you’re really scraping the barrel by suggesting there might be, frankly.
So I don’t see that one can really make an effective case for the ultimate value of these negative emotions. Are you trying to make out that Negativity is a goal worth pursuing? I doubt if you really believe so.
I quoted “highest truth” from another’s post, Roman – was it yours? I’m not claiming any personal experience of such a profound realisation, so no need to try to coax it out of me, thanks!
Although, like everyone, I’ve somehow known that where we habitually tend to live is very much in the shallows, whereas great teachers appear to be coming from a different space altogether – a space uncontaminated by attachment to, identification with thoughts and emotions. In other words, they seem to consciously exist in Inner Space, while our inner spaces tend to be clogged up with garbage, don’t they?
So to answer your final question, as far as I can understand, as a long-term wader-in-the-Shallows, that pure Inner Space is what is left after one sees through and disidentifies with the destructive effects of conscious and unconscious attachment to thoughts and emotions.
And I’m light years away from that, unfortunately….
Satyadeva,
What a strange dichotomy in the sannyas world. You are ‘light years away’ and others claim they have arrived. At least you can’t be accused of hubris here.
Nietzsche is an important philosopher on envy and ‘ressentiment’ and yet he was full of it, particularly when it came to Socrates. Nietzsche used these passions to produce, in a short space of time, some of the most brilliant writing in German and Western literature. Closer to home, we know the envy around ‘gurus’. A South-East Asian Buddhist monk and I were discussing this yesterday. It is no different in his part of the woods. Devotees mimic their teachers and desire to be like them. Mimetic desire is rife and it breeds envy. Some handle it creatively, others turn vicious. We in the sannyas world have our examples.
Your words on anger and being rational remind me of Aristotle, the philosopher of common sense. Interesting, since Osho was so critical of Aristotle. By the way, I did say we can be passionate or be in a passion.
I would never use a term like ‘the highest truth’ unless in infinite jest.
As for self-hatred and where it come from not being important, well I tend to contextualise when it comes to individuals and groups. By the way, it is a pity that leaders in the sannyas community didn’t have a clue about the history of Oregon when they decided to build their utopian community. Contextualising is important. The adventure was doomed from the start.
Finally, some of the most interesting posts for me are when I hear details about a person’s past, their historical context. Things like Parmartha reading Descartes or your account of TM. We are marked by History. Our personal and group narratives.
Roman:
“Your words on anger and being rational remind me of Aristotle, the philosopher of common sense. Interesting, since Osho was so critical of Aristotle. By the way, I did say we can be passionate or be in a passion.”
As far as I can see, Roman, the anger of an Osho (or a Jesus in the temple?) is a fully conscious, rational response to the conditions, the situation of the present moment, and isn’t carried over, as a sort of festering sore, after that has passed.
In other words, he’s not ‘attached’ to it, it’s not down there in the unconscious, ready to take him unawares, as it were, any time, any place. In contrast to the vast majority of us.
SD.
The idea that some enlightened guy somewhere is “not attached” to his anger etc. is probably just an attempted wish-fulfilment fantasy that, in itself, actually keeps you feeling stuck in your anger.
Not only are you angry, but now you`re angry that you`re angry cos some dream self is waving at you saying:
“Be un-angry,like me”.
“Nirvana is a nightmare of daytime”,
said Buddha.
You might be better off directing your anger at that silly fellow and giving him a good kick in the nuts. He probably deserves it.
And as for transcending depression and suffering, can I suggest you drop supporting Arsenal?
Some serious meditation and improvement in sitting on your backside and you might get to be reborn in a future life in Barcelona!
Talking football,
Glasgow Rangers remind me of the sannyas movement.
Krishnamurti and Osho were like the “Old Firm” in the 70′s and 80′s…
in a league of their own really.
But scandal and financial impropriety have laid the Protestants low, languishing in the 4th division, riven with strife, with little hope of returning to the big time.
Frank:
SD.
“The idea that some enlightened guy somewhere is “not attached” to his anger etc. is probably just an attempted wish-fulfilment fantasy that, in itself, actually keeps you feeling stuck in your anger.
Not only are you angry, but now you`re angry that you`re angry cos some dream self is waving at you saying:
“Be un-angry,like me”.”
Frank, by the same token one might say that your view on the matter might keep you stuck in being angry whenever and wherever you care to offload it (and to hell with the consequences, to oneself or anyone else).
You’re surely not stupid (I had to stop myself writing ‘unaware’!) enough not to know that being angry can (but not always) be just another form of suffering, it can really screw up the system (and others around us) if we don’t get some sort of hold over it. It’s not a question of becoming some sort of ‘ideal self’ at all, it’s about realising what works and what doesn’
Maybe you’re content being a sort of ‘robot’ though? Maybe that works for you?! If you think that’s being unjust, then same goes for your above comments – too witty-by-half, perhaps? Could be worth looking at, Frank, you never know your luck in a small town – er, I mean, website….
Moving on to more serious matters, perhaps you’ve failed to notice Arsenal’s extraordinary 7-5 win last night? Not too bad for what was basically their second string, eh?
Got so excited I forgot to take my anti-depressants…
Made up for it by 3 solid hours watching my breath this morning though, before the main business of the day, answering your load of old tosh.
PS: Who do you support, anyway?
Barcelona, isn’t it? (Cheat!).
Or could it just be Reading?!
SD,
They don’t support me, so I don’t support them!
But I do like to watch the occasional big match on the telly, just to block out the pain and suffering of existence for a while…
But it’s only a temporary relief…
Then I`m straight back to beating the wife, thumping the kids, mugging old ladies, shouting abuse at foreigners and uncontrolled road-rage at every junction.
I think I might need a guru!
Well, you know where I am….
Sounds as if you’re a prime candidate for the Blues, Frank…
Can you play guitar or harmonica at all?
SD, yeah,
here`s a lyric from one of my songs…
“When you wake up in the morning…
And you`re feelin` blue…
And the face in the mirror
says,”Who the fuck are you?”
It`s all right
cos the Blues is the truth
I tell you the Blues is the truth
and it’s alright….”
Blimey, SD,
You`re beginning to sound like a Taliban with a prickly pear stuck up his ass.
Have you thought of giving pleasure a go?
I know it’s transitory and all, but….
Well, when one is the ‘God of Truth’, one simply has to call it as it is, Frank…
And no way can I let Roman get away with calling jazz artists “buddhas”, however great their music is.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, it’s time for my evening cold shower….
Satyadeva,
I remember the Friday night when John the Baptist took Jesus Christ down to the river. And they talked about Mary, like a couple of boys. With nothing to lose but too scared to try.
Father John Misty
The facts are that Jesus was constipated in the temple. Read Josephus, who was around at the time.
Just imaginary garbage, Roman, intellectual bullshine.
Roman says:
“I remember Osho being in jail and he seemed pretty angry when interviewed. He seemed to be angry when Mukta was manhandled by the police in Greece. He also expressed outrage at the police station…”
I must admit I haven’t seen all of Osho’s prison videos (if anyone knows where they might be on the web, please let me know) but in my mind, the scene at the Greek police station* was the only time I have ever seen him properly angry. I remember proudly saying to my partner (at the time) that it takes some real zorbas to piss him off. The average IQ of a Greek policeman is around 50. They recruit them like that on purpose.
Vartan
* That’s another vid I haven’t been able to trace: The Crete adventure.
The Crete Adventure is not exactly 007.
The false should be exposed, truth be served; truth…God’s expression is Human.
We are Avatar, Avatar is the expression, filled by himself.
Parmartha,
I like your own account. Positive thinking can easily turn to scapegoating and victimisation.
The following poem by Etheridge Knight has always moved me. It is about entering a meditative space. Etheridge spent six years in prison. ‘I died in Korea from a shrapnel wound and narcotics resurrected me. I died in 1960 from a prison sentence and poetry brought me back to life.’ Etheridge went on to win numerous American poetry awards. He could see through stone. No inflationary hype. I hope you and others enjoy it.
A WASP WOMAN VISITS
A BLACK JUNKIE IN PRISON
After explanations and regulations, he
Walked warily in.
Black hair covered his chin, subscribing to
Villainous ideal.
“This can not be real,” he thought, “this is a
Classical mistake;
This is a cake baked with embarrassing icing;
Somebody’s got
Likely as not, a big fat tongue in cheek!
What have I to do
With a prim and proper-blooded lady?”
Christ in deed has risen
When a Junkie in prison visits with a Wasp woman.
“Hold your stupid face, man,
Learn a little grace, man; drop a notch the sacred shield.
She might have good reason,
Like: ‘I was in prison and ye visited me not,’ or – some such.
So sweep clear
Anachronistic fear, fight the fog,
And use no hot words.”
After the seating
And the greeting, they fished for a denominator,
Common or uncommon;
And could only summon up the fact that both were human.
“Be at ease, man!
Try to please, man! – the lady is as lost as you:
‘You got children, Ma’am?” he said aloud.
The thrust broke the dam, and their lines wiggled in the water.
She offered no pills
To cure his many ills, no compact sermons, but small
And funny talk:
“My baby began to walk … simply cannot keep his room
clean…”
Her chatter sparked no resurrection and truly
No shackles were shaken
But after she had taken her leave, he walked softly,
And for hours used no hot word.
Loved the poem, Roman. Thanks. Brought tears to my eyes on a cold winter evening.
Parmartha,
I love the winter nights. Respect your background and what you did when Osho landed in Thatchertown.
Agree with your past reference to Maneesha being genuine. Found the same with Anando and not just based on hearsay. Thanks to my beloved, Anando did us a nice favour.
Agree with Alok John and what happened to Osho in prison. These women don’t lie about that, one could say they are deluded but you don’t get put in the slammer and disappear under an assumed name.
Would like to interview the guys who came up with David Washington? Did they toss a coin? A lot of Washingtons are Afro-Americans. Maybe they thought of George?
Nothing quite like a wee stretch in the can for honing one’s philosophy. Three places to find out who your friends are, hospital, prison and your grave. Only one to go.
Lokesh,
Here’s another one which rings true to me. I’m looking forward to the one from the grave.
Feeling Fucked Up
By Etheridge Knight 1931–1991 Etheridge Knight
Lord she’s gone done left me done packed / up and split
and I with no way to make her
come back and everywhere the world is bare
bright bone white crystal sand glistens
dope death dead dying and jiving drove
her away made her take her laughter and her smiles
and her softness and her midnight sighs—
Fuck Coltrane and music and clouds drifting in the sky
fuck the sea and trees and the sky and birds
and alligators and all the animals that roam the earth
fuck marx and mao fuck fidel and nkrumah and
democracy and communism fuck smack and pot
and red ripe tomatoes fuck joseph fuck mary fuck
god jesus and all the disciples fuck fanon nixon
and malcolm fuck the revolution fuck freedom fuck
the whole muthafucking thing
all i want now is my woman back
so my soul can sing
Check him out reading his stuff and the prison cell. Love the man.
How right Parmartha and Osho are on this one. Give me the blues anytime. Went to Osho depressed and I can live with it. If you are into the blues get into it. Happy thoughts don’t make poetry or masters. Osho said if you follow me you are going to be lead to the abyss. Come follow me to the cliff.
ps good luck with the lottery.
Yes, Roman, it’s raw and honest all right. Rings true, for sure – a sort of death faced by many of us.
But aren’t this and Osho’s two different sorts of “abyss”?
If “happy thoughts don’t make…masters”, then why should unhappy ones do the job instead?
Happy/unhappy – that seems our lot…until we’re totally sick of it all and want a way out?
Satyadeva,
Some say there is no way out. This is water. Just this very moment. R.I.P David Foster Wallace
‘You got to get down a little closer to the ground.
People everywhere are goin’ out of their mind
Looking for answers in symbols and signs,
But there ain’t no answers up in the sky
We got to give the earth a try.
If you can’t feel pain then you can’t feel love,
You gotta let go of what you’re thinking of,
because you’re too far away from where you were
at birth
You better get down to earth’.
Toni Brown, ‘Closer to the ground’
Ma Taru Sings Mirabai to Osho.
‘A glimpse of your body
has hooked me!
My family sets out to restrain me
but I’ll never forget
how that peacock-plumbed dancer
embraced me.
I’m loggy with Shyam
my people say – she meanders!
Yes Mira’s hooked,
she goes for refuge into those depths
where every secret is known.’
Songs of Mirabai
Perhaps home is where you come when you run out of places. ‘Black and White Book of Film Noir’.
‘Keep on truckin’ as Jerry would say. Don’t get too comfortable, that’s when there’s danger at your door.
Roman:
Some say there is no way out. This is water. Just this very moment.
“Some say”? Maybe they don’t know as much as they think they do?
Roman (quoting Toni Brown):
If you can’t feel pain then you can’t feel love,
You gotta let go of what you’re thinking of,
because you’re too far away from where you were
at birth
You better get down to earth’.
Well, ok, pretty basic therapeutic stuff there, Roman. Then what?
Roman:
‘Keep on truckin’ as Jerry would say. Don’t get too comfortable, that’s when there’s danger at your door.
Who’s recommending getting “too comfortable”? If you think I am, you’re mistaken.
And I don’t see the point of the ‘Songs of Mirabai’ quote.
Satyadeva,
I have no idea if you are ‘too comfortable or not.’ And true, ‘Maybe they don’t know as much as they think they do.’ And perhaps they do?
I can’t prove to anyone that Schoenberg is better than the Rolling Stones or that Meher Baba is an avatar and Osho is a false master. Baba people I know claim this. These are just perspectives of followers.
As for Mirabai, her songs are about depth as opposed to new age positive thinking. She just came to mind.
I like ‘Roots and Wings’ by Osho where he talks about the depth of the soul and spiritual heights. Another perpective.
Fingers crossed!
Under extreme conditions of stress, the mere consideration of suicide can bring relief and I suppose, may be seen (in the circumstances) as positive thinking.
Is ‘visualisation’, ‘thinking’? Is the internal dialogue ‘verbal’? As Lokesh said, different people have different positives and negatives to which I would add that different people also have different channels of input and internal processing. Many years ago now, I was shocked to find that many people don’t visualise at all, some cannot spin even a simple 3D shape. I’ve always been good at visualising but I know much better. One of my interests is horology (clocks and watches, marine chronometers), in the 17th century a chap could visualise running movements for days in order to find their stress points before starting building them. Sculptors can visualise forms inside marble.
In the same way, some can see ‘the best’ in everything and everybody. Osho’s acceptance of everybody, Crowley’s LOVE IS LAW – LOVE UNDER WILL, are forms of positive thinking thrown outwards instead of inwards.
Osho is spot on. Meditation is better than positive thinking because meditation will improve the body (the mechanism) that will do the thinking.
Vartan
Meditation is ultimately supposed to dissolve our habitual dependence on our thinking minds, isn’t it? So in that respect, meditation and positive thinking are going in opposite directions.
SD – there are some things meditation can’t help – long Live the Blues!
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Ha ha, Rajni, very good choice!
But the Blues arose/arises through suffering, it’s basically the music of slaves, isn’t it? Actual physical slaves in the US of A, and later, now, despite the undoubted artistry, genius even, of many of its greatest writer/performers, it’s essentially the music of another sort of ‘slave’, which to a greater or lesser degree we all are these days, ie slaves to our emotional unhappiness, our misery.
Sure, creating and listening to this stuff can help us transcend our suffering in that moment – but how long does that ‘release’ last? Soon we’ll need another fix, and another…
I think we have to look elsewhere, for something other than what amounts to a ‘consolation’, if we really want to go beyond this pain, don’t we?
What’s the source of this suffering of ours? (I’m sure Lokesh would ask, “Who is suffering anyway?”).Can it actually be dissolved, permanently, even? Isn’t that why we’re ‘with a Master’ anyway?
SD, you’re right, I would. We cling to life like barnacles on an ocean-going liner’s hull, because we are programmed to do so. But who or what is it that believes we can get more by living longer? We suffer because we feel separate and take things personally…Our personalities are manufactured on this here people farm…But something watches and knows this and it’s not Big Brother.
Rajni,
Here’s to the conductors of the pit. The Monsters of the Id, the Ghoulies of the Night as Mose Allison would say. Van dedicated an album to him. Go Charlie Parker and Bessie Smith, the real Buddhas.
Finally, here’s to the Lord of the Full Moon.
“…the real Buddhas”, eh, Roman? But not, perhaps, if you look into their lives away from playing their undoubtedly brilliant music?
You wouldn’t be a sort of ‘sentimental intellectual’ type who’s prone to glorify, even deify such people from maybe the ‘other side of the tracks’, would you? You know, the attraction of opposites…?
Satyadeva,
I was brought up in a one bedroom hotel room for six years. Best people come from the wrong side of the tracks. We needed credit for bread, milk and butter. It was tough. City libraries, a great shelter from the storm. Bit of an autodidact, taught myself. Some might know Eric Hobsbawn, great ‘leftie’ historian died recently. Now there’s an intellectual with a big heart. He and Orwell.
Not into dichotomies. Complexities.
“We don´t need positive thinking but intense meditation to bring harmony in oneself and all over the world. Therefore we need to spread meditation in politics, in business, in every relationship”, the chief disciple was heard saying in a gathering.
“Sir, in that case, your fellow disciples must be radiating harmony in themselves and in their interpersonal relations?”, enquired someone from the middle.
Chief disciple could feel where the conversation will lead, still he answered, “Problem is, most of them don´t meditate, but talk.”
“But sir, at least you and your close-knit friends must be meditating?”, the same person enquired.
The chief disciple said, without showing how much he feels pissed off, “To be true, we should be meditating, unfortunately we don´t have much time”!
I think Osho’s above qoutes about positive thinking are just another example of an enlightened person talking absolute bullshit. Positive os negative thinking may be irrelevant to an enlightened consciousness. However, I have also heard Osho talking some beauty about the power of positive psychology.
I received an email with an interesting article by Ankur, where he sets out his beliefs. Ankur is a young sannyasin (well younger than me!) who runs a School of Awareness in S. London. As is so often the case, the article contains an odd mixture of Osho’s teachings and New Age positive thinking teaching.
Here is an extract:
“Why are we so scared to take a risk and be ourselves? Why grudgingly stay living a discontented life, rather than take a risk and be different?
Often the argument runs something like this:
‘Well, what choice do I have?
I need to live,
so I need to earn money,
so I do this job because it is the only thing I know how to do
(that someone will actually pay me for).
And anyway, I am just doing the same as everyone around me.
It could be worse!’
A superb excuse. Except that it isn’t. It isn’t really true. But we want to believe it’s true, because this is our excuse for keeping on doing the same thing day after day. And without your excuse(s) you might realise the truth is that you can live your life differently, and that is scary because it is full of change, unknowns, risks and fears. And so it is easier to stick to the devil you know:
‘Discontentment? Oh yeah, well, it’s not so bad!’”
You see the positive thinking. Ankur denies that it is sometimes the case that a person has little choice in how they earn money.
If anyone wants the full article, let me know.
Thanks, Alok, but I believe I’m going to give that one a miss.
Alok John says:
“And anyway, I am just doing the same as everyone around me….”
Yes, but are you doing it with the same emotional attitude? Doing the same and being the same are not the same. I had this insight the other day that every single sannyasin is at exactly the right place, where he or she should be*. Only that some of them clearly don’t think so.
The nisus to understand one’s current physical and emotional position in relation to Osho’s (post body) plan will probably be the Heineken thing to do at this point. Step one, “I leave you my dream” were never Osho’s words.
Vartan
*(I was actually thinking of Sheela in her home surrounded by the mentally disabled and Jayesh in his Resort surrounded by empty space).
I’m here to wake up to this day,
I’m here to dance the clouds away,
I’m here to live and sing my song,
And disappear into the Blessed One.
This old song from Pune One, it’s still with me. And the lyrics still ring true to me just as they did then, call me simple, but I think that’s what being an Osho sannyasin is…And here’s another one which to me defines an Osho sannyasin
If you don’t fight with life
Life simply helps you,
It takes you on its shoulder,
It takes you on its shoulder
It takes you.
Well, yes, Parmartha, but what happens all depends on your circumstances and karma.
For one person, “life helping you” might mean finding new friends and jobs.
For another person, “life helping you” might mean moving into poverty and death, albeit if you were in a let-go you would grow a lot.
(Come on Parmartha, you are not simple!).
Karma? Where does that karma come from? And who is it that has it? Here you are again, AJ. Let-go and growth. Let’s hear about your let-go and growth. What form has it taken and who and what is it that you believe to be growing? Hot air, perhaps? Nothingness? Consciousness? I await your response with bated breath.
Lokesh, I find it strange that we know only Karma as we have learned by New Age, but that Kâma from the Vedas we don’t know, have a look into the Atharva, here is the Link. http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/av.htm
IX, 2. Prayer to Kâma (love), personified as a primordial power.
Finding in the lower part of that web side, almost at the end.
Karma might be a human way of trying to put control on chaos. Yes, if you have some kind of conscience, karma appears to be there, but for many they just carry on regardless.
Here’s a quote from my second book:
‘The theory of karma is vague at best, but it does teach responsibility and definitely helps when it comes to rising above man’s animal-like behavioural tendencies. But then again, Buddha is reported to have said that trying to understand the workings of karma is impossible, even going so far as to declare it one of the ‘Four Imponderables’.
I know what connoted Karma at its Theory…Is it a theory or reality, a concept of how our subjective consciousness–“reality” creates the individual’s drama? Karma and Kâma, are they really rooted in two different Sanskrit word nomenclatures, meanings, as Karma (Fate) and Kâma (Love), or a result of wrong translation over many years?
Kâma (Love) is existential, permanent, as I interpret it from the Veda. But, if Karma is the absence of this Kâma (love), than Karma is truly an illusion if one has realized his Kâma?
My fault, guess they are really two different Sanskrit terms…I just do not trust that concept of Karma, it has a smell of some false pressure within.
To shine a clear light on Karma, may I recommend Barry Long’s cd’s, ‘The Law of Life: Karma’, also published as a chapter in his book, ‘Only Fear Dies’.
Also his video, ‘KARMA and How to Change It’.
No need to pore over ancient texts, or get confused by New Age-ish interpretations and speculations, BL nails it, as far as I’m concerned anyway.
Barry Long was a no-nonsense, regular, blue-collar enlightened guru.
And the possessor and utiliser of a commendably unemotional penis.
Yet I always got the impression that he and his followers might be in need of a bit of karmic relief.
So as far as 80s Australian gurus went, I was more into Crocodile Dundee, really.
I remember Crocodile Dundee. My Aussie mate ran down the road, pants down to his knees. Screaming, ‘Please come help me. That shaman gave a little too much to me’.
Shane Warne is the real thing when it comes to trickery and karma. Barry not in his league.
Well, BL lasted up to late 2003, so your “80s guru” date is a couple of decades out there, Frank. Arguably, as is the category “blue collar” for a former newspaper editor / pr executive – unless, of course, it’s applicable to all Aussies? Still, he left school at 15 and didn’t go to uni, so perhaps qualifies for that label?!
I get your “karmic relief” drift, yet one might say he, er, ‘mellowed’ a fair bit in his later years, after returning to Oz in ’86. So maybe your assessment isn’t quite up-to-date…
Anyway, as I said, his teachings on karma are unparalleled, imho.
Shane Warne…Some people are better at doing than speaking or writing, and he’s surely one of them. Great cricketer, but a bit of a big-head loudmouth, I’ve heard…Reminds me of that saying, “Beware of meeting your heroes”.
SD,
You`re probably right.
I never really heard much about him after the 80s.
You obviously know more about him than me.
Did he really do the unemotional penis stuff himself or was that pr exec type stuff as well?
I heard he was having quickies with his audience right, left and centre.
Nice piece of fishing there, Frank, I see you’re in form again…
But ok, to ‘play the game’, I’d say I really wouldn’t know, but…don’t necessarily believe all you hear – about anyone!
Hasn’t your VAAAAST experience of Life conveyed that simple lesson to you yet, by this (possibly) late stage?!
Alternatively, you know the old saying – that holds good, I reckon, even in rarified spiritual circles:
“A person tends to see what he’s looking for, and to hear what he wants to hear.”
SD,
You say:
“Dont believe all that you hear…”
I would agree with that.
On the other hand,
that’s what Jimmy Savile said for 40 years…
It worked for him!
How about writing an article on Jimmy Savile for SN then, Frank – you do appear to be extremely interested in the man? Chance to ‘get it all out’, as it were….
Alok – P is surely not talking about ‘some people’ here. He is talking about himself – and no one else.
Ok, P does indeed say “but I think that’s what being an Osho sannyasin is”, but…that doesn’t mean it’s some kind of rigid rule that you/me/others must live by.
I too am moved to tears oftimes when I hear some of the ‘old songs’ – and as corny as they are, because we were there and in His presence, these corny lyrics take hold and tears can flow. Why? It’s about being vulnerable, isn’t it? Something we were raised not to be – in case someone kicks us. We are brought up to keep our armour intact at all times, aren’t we?
But Osho allowed us to sit ‘naked’ – armourless, in front of him – and feel, for perhaps the very first time, the overwhelming relief at letting-go. But years pass. The master is dead. We ‘return’ to our ‘lives’. We pack on the armour again. We are once again afraid – of tears – of vulnerability. We scoff. We cringe. We no longer allow ourselves to hear the birdsong. It hurts to ‘feel’.
And being simple? What’s wrong with this? Utter simplicity is beautiful. I recently rescued a baby crow fallen from its nest. 100% vulnerable, but so trusting. And life is cruel and it may not survive – but I held it in my hands and felt the overwhelming-ness of existence. All around us – at all times. And my powerlessness.
I’m often moved to tears listening to the golden oldies, like Waves Are Coming In. I cry wondering how I could have been so very uncool, so utterly corny, singing such a load of utter tosh.
I still sing to this day in a sining group. Our repetoire includes blues and gospel classics, like the Stones, ‘You Got To Move’ and the confessional, ‘It’s Nobody’s Fault But Mine’. At times our group sounds like the Howling Cat Salvation Army Band, at others like The Fallen Angels. The group’s name is actually The Be Here Now Band, which, come to think of it, sounds very twee.
If you look at the life of Jesus it is obvious that positive thinking is the only way to go. Forget about Kerouac reciting a poem about Charlie Parker, the great Buddha. Jesus is for real. Now he may have had constipation problems but in the temple with the money changers his anger was a rational response to those dealing with filthy lucre, loose flowing cash, the tight arses and those who should have been put on a retainer.
What is unique about this master is that we now know what happened to him between 12 and 30. John Prine, foremost biblical scholar, has interpreted the recently discovered esoteric texts and we know that Jesus was so optimistic because of his intense spiritual practices during those missing years. Sit back with some popcorn and hear the wisdom. You’ll be purified.
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If you don’t fight with life
Life simply helps you,
It takes you on its shoulder,
It takes you on its shoulder
It takes you…
If you don’t fight with Jayesh…
Resort will not take your pass away…
Life will help you
To find Russian love in the bar!
If you don’t fight with India,
What Osho says about Indians…
Society will help you
To find wife, dowry and business…
Country will take you on its shoulders….
If you don’t fight with life, does it mean not fighting with the power-stuck status quo?
Just accept everything…till the point, if you can’t stop the rape, try to enjoy it!
Parmartha’s comments in introducing this thread point out that Osho stressed ‘the danger of positive thinking’ and how some of us ‘never seemed to hear his words, or if we did were shown the door when echoing the same vein of criticism to commune leaders….’
I appreciate Parmartha’s views and I’m reminded of the naivety that exists amongst utopian perfectionists of all persuasions. The longing for paradise, whether religious or secular, is often a manic quest for perfection, which is oblivious to anyone outside the pursuit.
Osho did emphasize how one should be wary of idealists and distrustful of ‘systems’, yet commune leaders, with utopian fervour, ignored historical context, and, according to Parmartha, Osho’s warnings about positivity and naive idealism. Whilst Rajneeshpuram was a longing for paradise, a return to the Garden of Eden, one tends to forget that the Oregonians also had their Utopian longings which were infantile. For example, in 1922, up to 200,000 active KKK members were influential in electing a Governor and legislature that supported conformity to their social, cultural and religious views. Whilst this happened back in 1922, these people had their own utopian vision, albeit a perverted one.
With this background, and even though Oregon would see itself as a democratic state, I don’t think it is surprising that the promise of paradise was bound to fail. We literally had two very different cultures which became entrenched within their belief systems and ideologies. Some would say Rajneeshpuram was a necessary mistake and we grew up. Others maintain that the ‘master’ was teaching us something along the way. The Oregonians have a different take, having erected a statue in honour of the defeated Rajneesh movement. I think it was Charles Turner, the attorney-general, who said that Osho’e eyes were outright evil.
Finally, positive thinking doesn’t always lead to a positive outcome. So here’s to the anarchists and anti-systemisers.
Despite Osho’s slamming positive thinking, surely the view, quite dominant in sannyas circles, that everything that happened in Oregon was a device of the master, is positive thinking par excellence?
Like falling Leaves blowing away
words disappear
and all I can say is
I love you.
I was born to love you
I was born to love you
Blessed one,
you set me free
Blessed one,
You set me free
Like falling Leaves blowing away
words disappear
and all I can say is
I love you.
Parmartha,
With the above song, I was born to love you…I can still see the tears in thousands of eyes, including my own…
And if life bless…I wish to see that atmosphere again….
A bit of nostalgia for the old folks. Where’s my snot-stained hanky? Boo-hoo.
You know, Osho was not a particularly sentimental chappie. Now here are Shantam and Parmartha going all soppy on us. Is this the shift in consciousness, making its presence felt as we shift into a new baktun on the Mayan calendar? Pass the popcorn.
‘It was twenty years ago today,
Sgt. Pepper taught the band to play
They’ve been going in and out of style
But they’re guaranteed to raise a smile.’
Chirpy Chirpy Cheep Cheep…
by Chicory Tip…
That was a classic too…
That brings a tear to my incontinence pants, does that one…
They don’t make `’em like that any more…
(Sigh)
Lokesh,
‘Waves Are Coming In’ is also a ‘golden oldie’ for me and I can be moved to tears. I do have a soft spot for the Salvo’s so the ‘Howling Cat Salvation Army Band’ sounds cool. Do you get to sing ‘Ripple’? I could make a hero’s journey to Ibiza if you do. I’ll paddle in my canoe. ‘There is a fountain not made by the hands of men’ touches a soft spot.
As for ‘nostalgia for the old folks’ and Osho ‘not being a particularly sentimental chappie’ I dig your point. Still, didn’t he listen to Indian music and perhaps he had his favourites? He also had some favourite poems. One in particular. Didn’t he like the ‘Ten Commandments’? I don’t know whether he got into 30′s and 40′s films or collected antiques. Was he a romantic man? Were Osho’s outfits nostalgic costumes? Did Osho ever praise the virtues of the honest peasant even though he may not have been a simple man, as disciples claimed? A Rolls is also an old classic. Ninety takes you back in time to the old Moguls. Maybe I’m wrong, but perhaps he longed to get out of the Big Muddy and be back in India.
Osho also referred to nature in its purity. Well, the Earth has been violated and shat on beyond repair. Was the purity of nature a longing for the past, some golden time? My God, I’m know thinking of the Golden Country. Good old George. I guess we will all meet there holding hands and singing, ‘There is so much magnificence in the ocean’. Meanwhile, I’ll continue my quest, my hero’s journey, which that other nostalgic old fart, Joseph Campbell, writes about, until I reach the Elysium Fields. We will meet in the Golden Country when we are no longer restless wonders internally or externally. It will be bliss. I’m humble enough to know it will take a long time but eventually the nostalgic longing for paradise will go.
There’s been a few references to karma and rebirth. Alok John may have got the ball rolling, followed up by Lokesh and Satyadeva. Lokesh points out that the Buddha ‘is reported to have said that trying to understand the workings of karma is impossible’. Lokesh’s comments tend to be supported by Richard Gombrich’s ‘What the Buddha Thought’, but perhaps not entirely. Gombrich is a Sanskrit scholar and founder of the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies. Gombrich claims that morally, the Buddha’s theory of karma provided a principle of individuation and asserted each individual’s responsibility for his own destiny. According to Gombrich, the Buddha, a brilliant and original thinker, would be appalled at what has happened to his teachings. Gombrich never ignores the social context of Buddha’s time.
On this site we have also been told, in Satyadeva’s humble opinion, that Barry Long ‘nails it, No need to pore over ancient texts’. A vey positive and optimistic statement.
Then we have Osho, who also spoke a bit on the topic.
In ‘Karma and Rebirth – Post-Classical developments’, edited by Ronald W. Neufeldt, we have an old sannyasin academic, Professor Gussner, who has written a paper titled ‘Teachings on Karma and Rebirth: Social and Spiritual Roles in the Rajneesh Neo-Sannyasin Movement’. Gussner points out that in the Rajneesh movement there is a trend to prune traditional doctrines on karma and rebirth of aspects (1) that legitimate the present social order, East and West, (2) that recommend ways to manage karma, tending to leave power in the hands of priests, parents, or others with official system-roles in the society, (3) that teach ways to repress yourself, or, (4) that instil fear about punishment in the next life or in the interval between lives.’
The essay says a lot more, but Gussner ends his paper by pointing out that ‘Rajneesh’s position on karma and rebirth seems to require the conclusion that he thinks it is true.’ Gussner’s piece was published in 1986. Osho’s Zen talks in Poona Two are obviously not taken into account.
Gussner’s comments on Osho and the other seventeen approaches to karma and rebirth, from monks and scholars from different parts of the world, highight the complexity of the topic, which is far from solved. Barry Long may have made a contribution to the topic but to have ‘nailed it’ may just be another perspective, in my humble opinion. Finally, Gussner does show us that Osho spoke about karma and rebirth in a liberating manner, but not naively.
Yes, well, it’s the sort of topic that genuinely disinterested truth-seeking academics and scholars can really get their teeth into, isn’t it, Roman, and a veritable feast for the would-be fascinated, possibly ‘crypto-priestly’ mind?!
But I’d rather trust someone who’s plumbed the depths of spiritual realisation rather than any of that lot, frankly, however conscientious their research and unbiased might be their conclusions.
What BL was very good indeed at was putting the most profound insights into non-obscurantist, non-mystifying language, so that the truth was accessible to us westerners, rather than us having to wade through reams of obscure eastern texts, the interpretations of which by westerners might well only amount in the end to mere speculation.
Like Osho, he wasn’t a mere ‘scholar’ in such matters, he knew, through first-hand experience. How do I know he knew? How does anyone know anyone knows such hidden truths? Through the ‘ring of truth’ in what he says and how he says it.
I recently came across an audio extract from one of his public meetings where he explained so-called ‘rebirth’ in the clearest possible terms, elegantly and without ‘spiritual bullshine’. Clear as a bell!
If you haven’t come across his stuff on these matters of karma and rebirth, I recommend you do, Roman. It just might save you a lot of time and energy on figuring it all out from other – sincere, gifted, but ultimately inferior – sources.
…thus spake prickly pear Taliban Savile, Lord of the Cold Shower!
The Lawyers’ll be after you shortly, mark my words, sir!
(Not sure re the Taliban, but if I were you I’d think about hiring a bodyguard, mate….)
Satyadeva,
‘The time we have waited for has come. The work is complete; The Final World is here. He has been transplanted and is alive.’
Thank you for the assistance.
Satyadeva,
Thanks for your sincerity. I’m sure that Barry wasn’t like some false shamans or gurus, despite the the rumours. There are so many naughty people in the world.
More importantly, last week in Linz 180 people died who had the ‘flu that is currently raging in Linz, but they died not from the ‘flu but as the result of a prescription that was misunderstood by a newly appointed pharmacist. The pharmicist will probably be charged with reckless homocide, possibly, according to the paper, Even Before Christmas.
SD, I’ve read some Barry Long books. I always enjoyed what the man had to say. My absolute favourite is the following. Brilliant. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Origins-Man-Universe-Myth-That/dp/1899324127/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1351931413&sr=1-6
Agreed, Lokesh, an extraordinary work (from his ‘Gnostic Period’, y’know).
Interesting post, Roman.
Often seekers is a bit self-distractive, creating distance within themselves. Reason and rationality supporting an outer concept that is hard too believe truthful and is basically against it in many ways, such as perhaps Karma. Trying to integrate truth into false by sanity is sick to me. Expressing a responsibility that becomes in the end a repression of one’s self-ecstasy. Idealized concepts from others, dead Philosophers who failed, although many intelligent words. They are empty as long those words are not our truth.
Believing in virtue and higher developed dead people, self-doubt and idealizing ideas about enlightenment, instead of accepting our self at whole, with some anger, jealousy, greed and love. The climate isn’t dependent on those believed negative emotions, resolved before. Negative emotions become negative if they are cultivated for the use of creating schemes which keep away from celebrating. Many Seekers and Finders all over the world are being more purified through release and a lived-out live than most of the nappy kings.
If you want to touch the truth – the who am I truth, you need to be free from all sentimentality.
Why it is so?
“Because I say so”, said the intellectual type.
Shantam,
Good point. The literal man can’t handle ambiguity. He’s into abstractions and inflated spiritual nonsense where books are referred to as brilliant and uplifting. In fact, my favourite literary genres are comics and science fiction. Books on religion, philosophy and spiritual matters are poor science fiction. One gets a laugh when one reads them through the eyes of science fiction. Ninconpoops read literally and have no poetry in their life.
Recently was given a beautiful book on the Goddess Kali and the Divine Mother. It was full of beautiful images of Indian Goddesses. It had a chapter on the worshipping of round stones which were beautifully coloured. Found similiar icons of worship in parts of Greece. Did a tour of Goddess sights and found the temples of Aphrodite and Artemis amazing. The hymns sung to the goddesses in both countries are moving.The high flyers would say that going back in time is just sentimentality.
Positive thinking may be bullshit but one can be inspired by songs and hymns to gurus and deities. Here’s one from the Homeric Hymns sung over two thousand years ago. It is translated with loving respect for the Greek religious experience.
The Second Hymn to Demeter
I begin
by singing
Demeter
in her beautiful hair,
majestic,
goddess,
Demeter,
her and her
very beautiful daughter,
Persephone.
Greetings,
goddess!
Preserve
this city and
direct
this song.
Sentimentality means to me that someone indulging in it has an unhealthy attachment to their personal emotional memories and the past events that they relate to.
Here is an appropriate Osho quote:
‘Don’t misunderstand your sentimentality for sensitivity. Sentimentality is ordinary; sensitivity is extraordinary. It happens through effort. It is an achievement. You have to earn it. Sentimentality is not to be earned; you are born with it. It is an animal inheritance which you already have in the cells of your body and your mind. Sensitivity is a possibility.’
Sounds as if Osho was making a distinction there between feeling (sensitivity) and emotion (sentimentality).
The one being a pure phenomenon, grounded in the depth of the present, the other being of the past, somehow ‘automatic’, unconsciously generated, ‘robotic’ even.
Satyadeva,
You are absolutely right. Spoken like a Maths professor. Keep things clean and clear. The Oshos and Barrys had no unconscious. The unconscious means just that, unconscious. Being enlightened beings it didn’t exist for them. It is as pure as one plus equals two, in all possible worlds. Enlightenment is an algorithm. We can separate the emotions and tidy them up.
By the way, the ranch seemed to have been caught up in some kind of collective unconscious. Suffering from a poverty of imagination. There was a bookshop which only sold Osho books. Not a poetry book in sight. As for novels like ‘The Brothers Karamazov’ by Dostoevsky, well, that would have been too dangerous on the ranch. Dostoevsky had a wild imagination, as did Shakespeare. By the way, Karamazov was one of Osho’s favourite novels.
You advise me what to read, so perhaps go back to reading Dostoevsky, if you haven’t already.
As for Barry, I’ll stick with D.H.Lawrence. They say he was influenced by him. Now there was someone who could write about sentiment and sentimentality, very different. Forget about therapeutic tools, a term you’ve used. There are other tools. But if this is a bit murky and dirty, there is always a cold shower.
Roman, I’m not denying the place and value of the creative imagination, I’m not that stupid. In fact, literature was my main subject from age 16, I first enjoyed Lawrence as a teenager and Shakespeare was very much part of the curriculum at both school and uni. I’m also familiar with Dostoyevsky.
As I said – but you chose to ignore it – it’s part of the human psyche, fair enough, it’s a major product of and contributor to man’s unique capacity among the creatues for self-reflection and the understanding arising from this.
I’ve been exposed to and done my share of plumbing the depths in this way, I know its enriching value all right.
But I maintain that your saying “imagination is reality” is not entirely correct. Reality has many levels, the imagination works where it does, it has its value, but can’t take you further.
Otherwise, as I’ve suggested, Masters would prescribe reading novels, poetry etc. as important practices for their people’s spiritual work, wouldn’t they?
No, imagination is superfluous to meditation, otherwise Osho, for example, would have made sure it was part of sannyasins’ recommended meditation practices, wouldn’t he? I notice you haven’t answered that point.
Nor the not so small matter that worry, a curse of the human condition, is a form of imagination run wild.
Lastly, perhaps a somewhat nit-picking point, but recently you wrote that “Shakespeare liked jealousy”, in relation to his great play, ‘Othello’. Sure he explored that theme and it makes for extraordinary entertainment and ‘instruction’ (for want of a better term). But the play demonstrates how destructive jealousy is, how poisonous to the person thus consumed and to those around him. So “liked” is hardly the right word, is it? One might as well say Shakespeare liked murder, betrayal, mental disorder…
Rather, such themes stimulated his creative imagination to hit unparalleled heights – you know, ‘holding up a mirror to human nature’ and all that.
That’s one way within, sure, but it can’t do the job of meditation and awareness, where we have our selves to encounter, rather than focus on symbolic characters in a manufactured drama, however brilliant that might be. That’s the point I’m making, really.
At times, Roman, you give the impression that you’re fixated (wrong word again, I expect) on art, especially literature and philosophy, as if these hold the keys to ‘going beyond’. Well, if these had that power, then many thousands, millions even, of intellectuals would have ‘reached’ (excuse the Indianism) by now. Something more is needed….
Satyadeva,
Was there a poverty of imagination at the ranch> Hasn’t Parmartha pointed out in the past what commune readers were reading? I could be wrong.
Perhaps you could give me your defintion of ‘reality’? Asking whether imagination is reality doesn’t imply I see it as some mathematical formula. I’m looking for a response, for a dialogue in the Socratic sense. One can read meditatively, not just bloody books. I have been impressed by Osho’s reading and have purchased novels, poets etc. on his recommendation. I was moved to see how carefully he dotted important passages in what he read. Like a good little boy, I mimicked him. I still do it.
Your Osho isn’t mine. I know one brilliant poet who hasn’t stopped writing about Osho after meeting him in Poona Two. He recently said he was still absorbing what he was given. He didn’t hang around very long.
Now this has been an interesting exchange. To me, meditation is everything one does, perhaps not very successfully. I’ve always been amazed at how some people read for information, necessary at times, and not for the pleasure of the language. Osho was a very poetic man. I know of one sannyasin, a well known psychiatrist, who told Osho when he visited the ranch what he was reading. Osho nodded in approval.
Now perhaps you can give me your definition of reality if imagination is not reality? Cheers.
Ultimately, as I understand it, human reality is of the senses, with “nothing arising” – no inner conflict, no neurosis, just a vast inner space…But that simple description hardly does it justice, I suppose.
Anyway, it’s late, I’m tired and hungry – and have to watch Match of the Day.
See you later….
SatyaDeva,
Cool, hope it is a good game. Thanks for the dialogue. ‘All’s well that ends well.’
Cheers, Roman.
Satyadeva,
There are always misreadings. It is part of life. I never said , ‘Shakespeare liked jealousy.’ I did say, ‘ We know that Shakespeare was great on jealousy. Othello comes to mind.’ I also pointed out that envy can be creative. One can envy Osho but one can use this constructively and learn from him. One can also become twisted and resentful. I’ve learnt from people who do things better than I. Trying to pull them down is another thing. Shakespeare was brilliant on envy.
I’m not fixated on art, literature, philosophy in terms of ‘going beyond.’ They lead to conversation. That is important. I did say philosophy and religion should be read like science fiction. I read for pleasure, curiosity companionship and interest, not for answers. You are inspired by Barry Long. Well that is cool. No doubt I’ve misread you.
You’re dead right, Roman, my memory tricked me re your Shakespeare on jealousy remark. How strange – I was convinced I’d got it right! Just shows, eh, how unreliable is memory – and how we recall as we’d like it to have been, or be…(Ok, as I’d have preferred it to be)….
Satyadeva,
I’ve done the same.
In reference to mystics and poetry, we know there is a whole tradition, East and West. Osho once raved about Lawrence’s book on the unconscious so I went and bought a copy. Lawrence is also a great poet. I bought Bly’s translations of Kabir because Osho discoursed on them. Meher Baba has disciples who are Sufi poets. I’ve met some of them. Osho mentioned many poets in his discourses and I followed those references through. I’m grateful because they have enriched my life.
I appreciate your comments.
Have the People devoid of sentimentality touched this filtered and refined state of Senstivity?
Just remembered Mahatma Gandhi’s favourate Bhajan, “Vaishnav Jan to Tinhi Kahiye…jo peer Parayi jaane Reh”. Roughly means Vaishnava (The most senstive ones: no meat, no wine, no onion, no Porn, no other man’s wife) is one who empathises with the pain and anguish of the other.
If such a person is sensitive, some Sannyasin will quote Osho condemning Gandhi as full with Mother Teresa complex!
People who are running the ashram are trying their best to cut off the source of Sentimentality, therefore all those Osho songs are not allowed any more.
Does it mean these people are full with sensitivity or Sadistic arrogance?
Shantam says, ‘All those Osho songs are not allowed any more.’
Well, at least the resort management got that one right.
I guess the answer’s in your second-last paragraph, Shantam, ie they’re simply trying to prevent people succumbing to sentimentality.
Well, Shantam, they have swimming pools these days and I believe you still have to be HIV tested to keep things pure. A form of infantilization? As if adults can’t be responsible. Exclusion? Who knows? Do you still have to wear rubber gloves and condoms? They can stimulate the imagination. As for hymns, well, you’ll have to join the troubadours and wild poets, like the Bauls Of Bengal, who move from town to town playing their music. Beautiful discourses by Osho. Pure poetry!
Shantam, you may be wasting your time arguing with a phallus. By the way, India made a big mistake trading Shiva, a vibrant Cock, for the bomb. Poor Shakti! Talk about patriarchy, women have a right to be angry. Would be nice to have a few more posting. What to do?
Resort management is appreciated by Lokesh.
I hope all these gentlemen will get the invitation from some Management university: “How to kill the brand and still claim success.”
Human mind has such vast potential, even it can claim to be the voice of the soul!
SD.
To equate emotion with sentimentality is wildly inaccurate.
The basic emotions…
Joy, interest, anguish, fear, distress, shame, disgust, dismell –
all these are visible in the facial expression or movements and motions (e-motions)of people.
These are rooted in our existence as humans, happen in the present and are literally vital functions.
How is this identical with sentimentality and living in the past?
Because they’re pretty well all – except joy? – in a way ‘automatic’, unconscious, ‘robotic’ reactions, Frank. We might like to think otherwise, because that’s what we tend to identify our ‘selves’ with.
Put it this way, perhaps:
Sentimentality is always down to emotion, is always unconscious in origin.
Emotion is often, but not always sentimentality (in the broadest sense of the word; I know very well that this is not its usual sense).
Feeling – Osho’s “sensitivity” – on the other hand, is never sentimental and arises from the Now, perhaps taking us by surprise, struck by how fresh it is. Should be more of it….
(Btw, why include “interest” in this list? And what’s “dismell”?!).
Interest, I will say, is one of the two basic clearly “positive” emotions, along with joy.
It is amazing and interesting that this fact has passed unnoticed .
Largely, I suspect, as a result of lumping all emotions together in a broad stroke of condemnation…
be it of “sin”, “weakness”or “unconsciousness”.
Interest is clearly detectable (like the other emotions) on the face of the interested party.
It is a positive emotion that can easily be noticed in oneself.
Also, people who are interested are more “alive”, of course,
(and more interesting).
Disgust is adverse reaction to taste, unpleasant or rotten taste.
And dissmell is adverse reaction to smell,
as in (screwed-up nose and withdrawal of the head).
God, my feet stink. Time for a cold shower!
Disgust in a moral sense is figurative, based on the physical sense of taste.
Frank,
I really appreciate this post and your intelligence.
Shame is also a complex emotion which has been given superficial treatment. There is the shame Primo Levi writes about which warns us about the future and the victims of holocausts. Those who live secure in their warm houses are asked to:
‘Consider whether this is a man,
Who labours in the mud
Who knows no peace
Who fights for a crust of bread
Who dies at a yes or no.
Consider whether this is a woman,
Without hair or name
With no more strength to remember
Eyes empty and womb cold
As a fog in winter.’
We know Primo is drawing on his own experiences and how it is shameful to forget the past.
But here is another form of shame from an entirely different culture, which pays homage to this planet and how we should treat it. A shame which perhaps acknowledges reference to all existence.
You may know these words spoken by Old Torlino, a Navajo elder, who chants them before telling the creation story. Here is a mindfullness before a sentient cosmos:
I am ashamed before the earth;
I am ashamed before the heavens;
I am ashamed before the dawn;
I am ashamed before the evening twilight;
I am ashamed before the blue sky;
I am ashamed before the sun.
I am ashamed before that standing within which speaks with me.
Some of these things are always looking at me.
I am never out of sight.
Therefore I must tell the truth.
I hold my word tight to my breast.
A different way of seeing. Words that are alive and conversing with a more-than-human cosmos.
Amazing how we are being looked at by a non-human world and we have stuffed it.
On first reading, I felt a bit uncomfortable, reminded of Ma Yoga Sudha’s introduction to the first edition of Osho’s ‘The Mustard Seed’, where she mentioned how she grew up with the crippling concept of God as a sort of “Cosmic Spy”, always looking at her, generating guilt – the usual Christian number.
So I wondered whether “ashamed” is really the right word here, if this has been translated from original ‘Navajo’ words. As this “shame” is of a very different quality, on a different level from, for example, an individual’s personal sense of shame that’s derived from negative influences in their early life.
But then reading again, bearing in mind it’s expressed by a man apparently consciously connected within to the Earth – and no doubt influenced by his cultural origins – it has a different sense altogether: A profound sense of responsibility for our earthly home, wherein the speaker seems to take it upon himself to speak on behalf of humanity.
Perhaps the more conscious a person becomes, despite having dissolved personal unhappiness along the way, the more they become ‘pained’ by ‘outside’ suffering, so the more he/she naturally tends to become more responsible for life outside? I recall Osho mentioning “the suffering of an enlightened one”, way back in the 70′s, seeing his people creating problems for themselves, holding on to their misery, as it were…
As within, so without – conversely, given the stare of humanity, no wonder the Earth is in near-terminal crisis….
Shame is the most mysterious emotion.
It’s possible to see how mutable to all the other factors of life, inner and outer impact, the basic emotions are.
I would speculate that the “function” of shame is something to do with realisation of limits and boundaries.
(These boundaries can be negatively conditioned into guilt or self-loathing at a young age).
So in this way, the Navaho here maybe connects with his shame in a realisation of his personal limits vis- -a-vis the rest of the universe.
That would show his shame to be fairly free of negative and problematic colouring.
I remember a story by Richard Burton, the famous Victorian traveller…
He was out riding with some Mohammedans in Arabia.
At one stage, one of the women, the wife of Burton’s host, fell on the ground whilst trying to mount her horse. As she fell, her veil was pulled from her face and simultaneously her robe was pulled up above her waist, revealing her nether regions.
Burton said that the woman instinctively used her hands to cover her face, now visible to a man other than her husband, in shame!
Interesting point there, Frank, re the “shame” of the Navajo poet. Realising his personal limits when confronted with the vast universe out there would be a way of getting his little ‘personal self’ in perspective, preventing him getting too hung up on self-importance etc. Hence the term “shame”. I think you’ve nailed that one.
That would be healthy, in contrast to the crippling effects of “guilt or self-loathing” that you also refer to.
SD.
The psychologist Nathanson said problematic shame is produced and set up by disturbing/interfering with the child (and adult) whilst he is in the movement of a positive emotion.
The shock produces dangerous shame.
That shock sends the victim into a limited range of reactions:
withdrawal
avoidance
attack self
attack other
It’s a nasty business because all the other neg emotions get pulled in, in their negative hues.
It seems the way through is,as you say, some form of “mindfulness” or “awareness”.
Which means you stay present with the difficult feeling without flying into the reactions.
These ideas have been used successfully to deal with addictions (which are always about limits),
by spotting the craving and just letting it come and go without acting on it.
But their application in dealing with just difficult emotions per se is more complicated because substances are alien to the body, whereas anger, fear etc. are still natural, even if they are messed up.
I don’t know for sure if it’s possible to kick negative emotions like you can kick drugs and booze.
But it’s worth a try!
That all said, I think embodying as much positive emotion as poss to give you the extra ooomph, rather than getting stuck battling with neg bits of yourself ad infinitum isnt a bad idea, too!
I am stating the obvious, really.
Frank says:
Shame is the most mysterious emotion.
Shame is when you need an erection and haven’t got one. One good thing about hitting 50 is that you stop worrying about what others think about you. Shame on me.
Vartan
Vartan,
Never had that experience and I’m 85.
That is the saddest story I’ve ever heard.
Frank,
Talk about joy!
You might enjoy this ride. It is a great song about Jesus hitching a ride to heaven full of joy. A friend of mine, whose band actually backed up Dylan, put me onto Terry Allen the songwriter. May not be your stuff but nothing is sacred for these guys.
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
Roman,
Country and western crazy wisdom!
Good lyrics!
Btw, Roman,
I actually backed Dylan once, too…
He came in last in the 3.30 at Newbury.
Frank, an astute comment. Some of them are into crazy wisdom buddhist philosophy. Country isn’t my favourite genre but I was given an education by a mate.
Disgust and dissmell then are initially and essentially instinctive reactions of the organism then, Frank, part of our survival mechanism, rather than ‘pure’ emotions.
Agreed, interest is an ‘interesting’ one….
SD.
I don’t really know what you mean by “pure”.
I notice that you use the word “pure” a lot.
Oscar Wilde said:
“The truth is rarely pure and never simple.”
Now, there`s a statement guaranteed to seriously irritate a puritan.
The point is that emotions as I am seeing it are actual motions that are visible on the face and posture of the human being.
These (e)motions are pretty much the same in all peoples.
They form the “primary colours”of emotion.
From these primaries we get a whole symphony, a mixture of colours and patterns resulting from the interplay of these, all the other parts of ourselves and our world,b many of which may not even have names (that’s where art, music and poetry come in).
To simplify this whole thing to
conscious vs unconscious
is simply a re-run of
good vs evil.
It’s a battle no one can ever win.
It seems dull-witted to me.
Not interesting.
Painful even.
A bit like endlessly watching a nil-nil draw!
Well, I’m not contesting the existence of emotions, Frank!! Why, I even recall ‘having a few’ myself – before I ‘saw the Light’, of course…But even you, surely, would find it difficult to deny that some are simply often destructive?
You ask what I mean by “pure”? How about the purity of the compassion of an Osho, for example? Or anything that’s uncontaminated by selfish self-interest, or anything that doesn’t arise from the pre-conditioned mind, ie the purely personal past? Or have you forgotten all that?
Btw, 0-0 draws can be thoroughly entertaining, can’t they?! Or is your footballing palate too jaded to appreciate the finer points any more?!
SD.
I have not said anything at all that would indicate that I deny that emotions can be destructive.
Those destructive elements…everyone will attempt, deliberately or instictively, to improve for themselves in whatever ways are possible for them.
There are moments when it seems to work.
Mostly, these attempts fail.
That’s hard to accept.
In my view, holding onto a mental image of “one who has gone beyond” all this and conquered their emotions is another way of attempting to deal with the hard-to-accept-ness of our difficult emotions, sure.
Good luck with it.
But it’s not about “holding onto a mental image” at all, it’s about understanding the damage that’s done to oneself (and others) and catching the moment when that stuff’s about to raise its ugly head…Otherwise, what’s the point of self-knowledge? Or, the point of all those therapy groups and sessions?
Btw, contrary to what you almost certainly think, I wouldn’t advocate repression, I know only too well the harm done there, enough to last me several lifetimes…
Self-regulating harmful emotions is moving on from their free expression, which is only a first, therapeutic stage.
Perhaps a major problem of human beings is that they insist on viewing their destructive emotions as valuable, important – as essential components of their self-created ‘identity’, in fact.
Why do you imagine the human race is moving, apparently inexorably, towards self-extinction?
Or do you view that as simply part of the ‘great tapestry of life’, just entertainment to sort of sit back and enjoy, even to fashion comedy from, perhaps?
I think those emotions become destructive if inferiority complex is involved.
Satyadeva, it’s not the human race as a whole, it’s again only the same Hermetic minority that uses and creates confusion around Humanity consciousness.
Use a bit of common sense, perhaps, Frank, and substitute ‘simply’ or ‘sheer’ for “pure”, as in ‘simply emotion’, or ‘sheer emotion’. Might be more useful than trying to attach a convenient label – “puritan” – to something you happen to disagree with?
SD.
Substitute “simply” for “pure”?
That’s an excellent idea.
That changes ” puritan”
to “simpleton”.
I like it!
No, it doesn’t, Frank, ‘pure’ is not part of ‘puritan’ at all (there’s no ‘e’ in ‘puritan’ or ‘simply’, is there?). As I suspected, you ‘simply’ can not see straight….
Satyadeva,
We are having fun. The bubbling up of the unconscious frightens a lot of people. The poets knew how to tap into it. Keats and Yeats come to mind.
Sailing to Byzantium – Yeats
An old man is but a paltry thing,
A tattered coat upon a stick, unless
Soul claps its hands and sing, and louder sing
For every tatter in its mortal dress,
Nor is there singing school but studying
Monuments of its own magnificence;
And therefore I have sailed the seas and come
To the holy city of Byzantium.’
I guess some will take Yeats literally. Hard to read a sentence, talk about writing one. Here’s to the poets who know a thing or two about the unconscious. Freud stole their ideas. But Freud is a poet, fools take him literally. ‘Bad poets borrow. Great poets steal’. Elliot.
Satya Deva feels great with the idea that “they’re simply trying to prevent people succumbing to sentimentality”.
I am sure, there are many in the world who will sympathise with the Talibans; as in their opinion talibans are standing for an holy act of preventng people succumbing to music, porn, education, culture, freedom and all that stuff perverted west stand for!
Seems like few white men are willing to play donkey to carry that burden which Osho has not imposed upon them. May be just the old habit to improve India..
And some where i am highly imprssed. Recently i was in Calcutta. The buildings which are still standing proud and have all the plaster intact were made by the British. Any infra structure developed by Indian simply stinks with the vibes of corruption. More sand less cement!
No, Shantam,I’m simply stating what I take to be obvious. It suits you to think and broadcast that I “feel great” about it. In fact, I’m not really bothered, either way.
A bit off topic but has anyone read Kabbalah Kirby’s ‘Fourth World’? He channelled it in 1956 and apparently it is a totally authentic life of Jesus. He points out that Jesus was a brave man.
Are certain types of people attracted to different ‘gurus’? For the readers out there, you may want to read ‘Moon Sisters, Krishna Mothers, Rajneesh Lovers: Women’s roles in New Religions’, by Susan Palmer. She’s written on sannyas life before and takes the middle path. That courageous man Buddha would love her.
Also, there is ‘Passionate Journeys: Why successful women joined a cult’, by Marion Goldman. Marion is apparently a smart cookie, she’s Professor of Sociology, University of OREGON.
You can now find out what it was all about or why your partner became a cult member.
Roman, in the big picture only women can be priestesses. Look how every time men attempt to take on the role of ‘priest’ they have to wear skirts.
On the subject of women in cults, there is quite a bit on You Tube. All interesting stuff, but I am not going to give links. To me, the Rajneesh movement was “Osho and His Women” (he was brilliant at playing daddy), the rest, all of it, was just kindergarten. He attracted the women and the women attracted us. “From Sex to Superconsciousness” as a book title is genius, you don’t even have to read the book, to ‘get it’.
Vartan
Not at all sure that’s true, Vartan. Not for me, anyway. I turned up thanks to the wonderful effects of dynamic meditation and other active stuff, plus having been attracted by his recorded discourses and books. Trust me, women, sex etc. wasn’t my motivation at all, I just wanted to feel good!
I guess this overwhelming ‘wanting-to-feel-good’ factor might be termed ‘therapeutic reasons’, and I was definitely seeking a ‘new start’. But apart from Osho as ‘parent-substitute’, there was also a deeper attraction, that I like to think was genuinely spiritual. (Women? Bah, humbug! IE I was a ‘non-runner’ in that particular area).
Vartan,
I was inspired by the guy. I tend to agree with Satyadeva’s post. I know of people who had a lot to lose by taking sannyas, but they took a risk. For some it has really paid off. Never saw Osho as a daddy figure. Women I know didn’t either. There were other ‘gurus’ who played that role. He deconstructed those type of fixations.
Vatan says, ‘Osho was brilliant at playing daddy’. I agree. I’d say most gurus are playing at big mummies and daddies. Name giving is traditionally exclusive to parents etc.
Why do adult humans need parental authoritaran figures in their lives? Because it is one of our first conditioning programmes. Many never get over it and thus fall prey to people pandering to their unconscious needs.
I can remember bowing at Osho’s feet and him patting me on the head and saying, ‘Very good, Lokesh.’ At the time I felt absolutely delighted…like a wee boy.
Nowadays, it all looks different. Live and learn, as the saying goes.
Adults do defer to authoritarian leaders, particularly in times of crisis. Large groups have blindly trusted authoritarian leaders such as: Molosevic, Stalin, Hitler, Nixon, Ataturk, Hussein and Bin Laden. Most of these guys promoted ethnic violence and terrorism. Nationalism is habituated in one at an early age. As Aristotle points out, all children are habituated in a certain manner. Some better than others. Aristotle pointed out that Spartan children were habituated to become warriors, whilst Athenian males were habituated to engage in debate and dialogue. I think Aristotle would reply to the charge of brainwashing that some cultures brainwash better than others. A brainwashed Buddhist is better than a brainwashed Nazi adolescent.
One also can defer to a person who isn’t authoritarian. Socrates was a lover of wisdom and stressed the importance of dialogue. One learnt from him, as shown in Plato’s early texts. It is also interesting how young Nazis were habituated to see women ( Klaus Theweleit ‘Male Fantasies’ – a large two volume brilliant study). A positive example of habituation is learning to play the sitar. It isn’t easy at first, but with practice and under the guidance of a ‘master’, it becomes creative and joyful. So we can have mentors, gurus, teachers who are not necessarily authoritarian. Some like Socrates are egalitarian in the true sense, others maybe liberal or conservative.
Intersting how Marx and Freud researched Aristotle. Marx wrote a doctorate on him and wanted to extend Aristotle’s notion of equal citizenship to all humans. Freud was interested in how civilization could protect humans from destructive instincts ( ‘Civilization and its Discontents’). He was prophetic when it came to Hitler and may have walked past him, in the streets of Vienna, before he got to England and his sisters were gassed.
Freud stressed that one could be a mentor without being authoritarian. One could hardly say that Freud was authoritarian when compared to Hitler. Fromm, Freud’s disciple, wrote about authoritarian patriarchal culture and stressed that mentors don’t have to be this way. Gurus may be parental substitutes but they needn’t be. By the way, even politicians have to defer to the motorcycle cop who becomes a parental figure when you are caught speeding.
So mentors like Socrates and other teachers may force you to think. They may nourish you. By delimiting the role of all gurus one also may be revealing one’s own limitations and missing out on the opportunity to flourish, as Aristotle would say.
Well, very simply, Roman, only a fool would choose to miss out on a chance to learn from a benign source.
But since when were Masters always ‘benign’ or non-authoritarian? Don’t they often challenge their people and do their best to penetrate their often too thick skins? Look at the sort of mills Osho used to put many of his people through, for example! What about blows with ‘Zen sticks’?
Osho and others have stated that the very existence of a community of a Master and the people drawn to him implies a sort of ‘dictatorship’, certainly not a ‘democracy’ anyway. A sort of ‘dictatorship of consciousness’, one might say.
SD,
Doctor Death and I were discussing this problem/quandary just the other night as it turns out. I was just refilling his glass with a bit of ale when he broached the subject of how difficult it is being a Master.
Doctor D, who was very tired after a hard day, lit up a spliff, blew some smoke rings and said, ‘Shit, Roman, people expect so much from me. They have this idea that I’m something that I’m not. They presume, because of what they’ve heard, that I’m somehow beyond knowing.’
Dr.D then kicked off his shoes, which in case you are interested, are the identical shoes that the Pope wears – red Pradas. He then nodded off.
To be continued.
Red Pradas, just like the Pope, eh? My God, wait till Preetam gets hold of this one….
SD,
He won’t let it go.
Osho could have been a fantasy dad.
You know, a cool guy you could always rely on to come up with some entertainmet for his kids. telling great stories and telling you not to take school too seriously and letting you skive off down to the river and loaf about, go for a swim and watch the birds (winged ones).
Trouble is, that sort of dad would tend to create a mama who would have to be overly strict to counter his libertarian ways. She’d be a tyrant.
He would support her, but you would always secretly feel he didnt give a toss.
You`d have ended up loving him for his wackiness, even tho` he drove your mum crazy, sitting around chewing the fat and doing substances at all hours with his cronies and constantly changing his opinions about everything.
They`d have to split up before you were old enough to take it all in.
You`d spend the rest of your life trying to figure out what happened!
Frank says, ‘You`d spend the rest of your life trying to figure out what happened!’
What happened?
Nothing ever happens!
And the moving ever shall stay!
It all comes
back to this.
In fact – it
never left.