Osho, Gurus and the Spiritual Search, by Nityaprem

Nityaprem writes…

Not so long ago I asked my father what were the most significant books in his life. He answered, P.D. Ouspensky’s ‘In search of the Miraculous’, and any Osho book (of course). Apparently he had read Ouspensky’s book on Gurdjieff some years before running across Osho’s picture in an alternative magazine and thinking, that man is it, I must speak to him. The following summer he was on the plane to India to spend time at the Ashram. This would have been 1978.

Of course, Ouspensky describes his own time as a disciple of Gurdjieff, and serves as an introduction to my father’s thinking of the concept of following a master, if not quite in the Indian sense of the word, then at least in practical terms a similar affair. Ouspensky’s relationship with Gurdjieff was first one of ideas and teachings, whether it later became one of the heart is difficult to tell from the book. Still, that impulse to follow a remarkable man is something a lot of sannyasins will find familiar.

For my father, Osho is the one and only guru. For me, although I share a lot of Osho background with him and still consider myself a sannyasin, I have read a little more widely in recent years, taking in much Buddhism and the books of Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj and H. W. L. Poonja, among others. In a way, I am still a seeker, while he considers himself to have found all he needs. I am sure it has something to do with the formative stages of my childhood in which I first encountered Osho, as I was only 7 when we first boarded the plane to Bombay in 1979.

We were all seekers once. And those sannyasins who went to see Poonjaji in Lucknow after Osho left his body continued seeking. The real question is, do you eventually give up the search? In a way, searching implies a goal, something that is sought. In the beginning what motivated my father, and what I felt when I started studying Buddhism was a certain impulse, something from the heart.

Osho has said…

“One has to be available to many sources. It is good that you have been to Shivanand, to Ramana, to Aurobindo. It shows you have been seeking — but it also shows that nowhere could you feel at home. So the journey continues. The journey has to continue until you come to a point where you can say: Yes, I have arrived. Now there is no need for any more departures. And you can relax. Then the real work starts.

Whatsoever you have been doing is just moving from one place to another. The journey is exciting, but the journey is not the goal. One becomes enriched by the journey. You must have become enriched being open to so many sources; you must have learnt many things — but still the journey continues. Then you will have to seek again and again.”

Osho – ‘The Search – Talks on The Ten Bulls of Zen’, chapter 4, Question 2

So, does one arrive “home” when one finds the final guru?

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611 Responses to Osho, Gurus and the Spiritual Search, by Nityaprem

  1. frank says:

    One thing we all forget easily is that all this language is metaphors.
    Journeying, seeking, searching, walking the path, arriving and so on.
    These kind of activities happen and exist in the everyday world `outside` sure enough, yet we transpose them into an `inner world`, never stopping to think we have moved into the world of poetry and metaphor.

    For example: we say “I see what you mean” or we say: “I am on my path.”
    But what kind of eyes are doing this seeing and what kind of feet are doing this walking?

    Nityaprem asks:
    “So, does one arrive “home” when one finds the final guru?”

    “It felt like coming home.”
    That`s a classic, too. I have heard so many people saying that as I`m sure you have, in different contexts. About arriving in India, about meeting their guru, about taking psychedelics, about shooting heroin.

    How could it be final? Your visa might run out or you`re deported, the guru dies or gets caught with his pants down, or your stash runs out, then what?

    I was reading ‘The Tao of Travel’, a compilation of travel writing selected by Paul Theroux.
    Overall, many travellers tend to agree with the Chinese proverb, “A good traveller is not intent on arriving” or “It is better to travel well than to arrive.”

    Mind you, arriving at a destination is fun. But as it is such fun, why would not every traveller set off on another journey just so as to get the buzz of arriving again?

    • swamishanti says:

      Interesting post from Nityaprem.

      NP mentions that sannyasins visited Poonja in Lucknow after Osho left the body. I stumbled across this video documentary of one of the enlightened teachers from Osho’s lineage, Samdarshi and his commune in the Himalayas recently. Several sannyasin teachers can be seen visiting the ashram, and also Poonja himself who came to share satsang.

      Apparently, Samdarshi had a bit of a ‘Judas’/Hugh Milne type ex-follower who left in anger about something and wrote some things against him, including that Poonja had said to the group when they were giving a joint satsang,‘ this guys not going to teach you anything, come over to my side if you want to learn something..”
      or something to that effect. However, according to Osho’s bodyguard Vasant Swaha, who was there and actually was responsible for bringing Poonja to visit Samdarshi, whatever Poonja said was simply intended to tease Samdarshi in the way that Masters will sometimes play games with each other, and it was not intended as a serious rebuke of Samdarshi or to suggest that he was not enlightened.

      Anyhow, here is the video, which has some interesting footage including some skydiving and techno parties:
      https://youtu.be/aHouMU_GI18

  2. Nityaprem says:

    Personally, as a commune kid I found it difficult to connect to the spiritual search. I took sannyas, but I think that like many of the other kids I was just following my parents. It wasn’t until I was in my forties that I started to feel a spiritual impulse, a need to search.

    Osho says that the search enriches you, but also that “the work only begins once you have made a commitment to a master.” So finding a guru is not the end of the path, it is only the beginning.

    For those who want to read the entire question and answer that I quoted, here is a link:

    https://sambodhiprem.com/Osho-talks-about-choosing-a-spiritual-path.html

    • frank says:

      Nityaprem, you say: ”So finding a guru is not the end of the path, it is only the beginning.”
      Where do you want to get to, though?

      On the last thread we had a post that contained Amrito, Osho`s doctor`s thoughts about Anando`s book and while he was at it, also about Osho`s previous secretaries. According to him they were all self-serving liars, falsifiers of history and crass egotists hopelessly caught in their own negative emotions. Highly likely that they think the same of him and his mates. Indeed, a lot has been written implying that and worse.

      A Noah`s Ark of Consciousness ushering a new loving era for humanity or a nest of compulsive liars pumping out fake news for decades mixed up with murder, suicide, bad drugs, Omerta, endless cover-ups, all honeyed-up with pronouncements about how enlightening it all is, or something else?

      We never really know where a path may lead.
      Humans are hardwired to walk, so there`s no avoiding it:
      We have to put one in front of the other and take our chances.

      • Nityaprem says:

        I would say, if you call yourself an Osho sannyasin, you shouldn’t be paying too much attention to all the things that the mind does, especially when it causes you to express yourself negatively towards others. Maybe this is something I picked up from Buddhist ‘right speech’, but to me it has always felt instinctively correct to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself. Does Osho not teach witnessing and no-mind?

        When you reach certain higher levels of awareness it becomes clearer what is appropriate to say and what isn’t, and as a sannyasin, a man or woman on the path, these things should count heavily. But it seems some senior figures like Amrito aren’t as aware as we would like them to be…that mud-slinging is not what I’d expect from a spiritually developed person.

        Where you want to get to is a tricky question. As soon as you introduce “wanting” you’re stuck in the land of desires, involuntary ‘my-making’ and the tricks of the ego. It’s turbulence of the mind, not the path to no-mind. I think if you can just be quiet and still deep inside then you are doing well.

        • frank says:

          My main takeaway from meeting and living with Buddhists, in the form of Tibetan people, was more of a human thing. They were oldworld religious, for sure, with their little rituals and superstitions and whatnot, but more often than not seemed to have a kind of cheerful, earthy and solid joie-de-vivre. I respect that.

          All the mind-watching-the-mind-watching-the-mind-watching-another-part-of-the-mind-inner-guru battle-of-attrition-against-the-ego conversations that seem part and parcel of western buddhism and all enlightenment scenes can get tiresome and headachey.

          I went to a puja with Lama Yeshi, one of the first Lamas in India to set up a scene for westerners back in the day. He had just come back from his first visit to the West and was meeting up again with his western disciples/fans in India.

          Before the puja started, he looked at me, who wasn`t part of the group and didn`t know the words and said, ”Look, I`m a monk so I will have to chant a bit of mumbo-jumbo with these people now, don`t worry about it, you just sit there and meditate.”

          After the puja, someone asked him what was the thing he liked most in the West.
          Without blinking he answered: “The chocolate.”

          The others giggled in a slightly embarrassed way, but he was being straight. In fact he went on to write a whole bunch of stuff in his books about tantra which he related it to the experience of eating chocolate.

          Learning a bit of meditation is good but using the mind to mindfuck about how duff the mind is never strikes me as particularly intelligent use of the mind.

          Western Buddhists and enlightenment seekers would probably be a lot happier sticking to the things that make them happy, like drinking good German beer and watching the football, with mindfulness, of course, at least, until their team gets knocked out of the Cup.

          • Nityaprem says:

            @frank who wrote: “western enlightenment seekers would probably be a lot happier sticking to the things that make them happy.”

            Western society seems to be very busy encouraging people to spend, spend, spend. As if that makes you happy, or the commensurate need to chase money and the corporate ladder, which is guaranteed to make you unhappy. Better, as Timothy Leary used to say, to “tune in, turn on and drop out.”

            Spirituality festivals seem to do quite well these days. Last I saw a website advertising one with “yoga, astrology, crystals and mediums”, it’s a whole cottage industry and many people don’t see the more worthwhile aspects such as yoga and tantra in the middle of it.

            The young people today are finding their way on places like Samaneri Jayasara’s youtube channel or Leo Gura’s website Actualized.org, reading the books of Ramana and Nisargadatta from the comfort of their own digital homes before they even dip a toe in the waters.

            Is that real spirituality? Has your generation and my generation done such a great job taking on the baton?

            • frank says:

              NP, you say “Western society seems to be very busy encouraging people to spend, spend, spend.”
              Yes, and the “spiritual” market is very much part of this ultra-capitalist phenomenon of commodifying, monetising, marketing and generating customers for absolutely every aspect of life. It is experiencing exponential growth right now as it tends to be an enterprise with little visible end product and masses of merch.

              With this, the difference between the corporate ladder and the greasy pole of enlightenment become indistinguishable and interchangeable.

              Osho`s idea that the spiritual man can enjoy material stuff was radical in the 70s and 80s. It is simply a bland comment in the internet age.

              And is there really a “job” of a “baton” of “true spirituality” that needs to be passed on?

              I have no doubt that every loony cult-leader and fundamentalist religionist believes this sort of thing, too.

              • Nityaprem says:

                Sadhguru takes corporate sponsorship, I heard, and speaks at business conferences.

                • frank says:

                  Never mind Sadhguru, he`s just Swami Bhorat without the laughs.
                  Have a go yourself!

                • satyadeva says:

                  Apparently, this book isn’t a send-up, it’s for real!

                • frank says:

                  SD, it gets pretty hard to tell.
                  One thing for sure is that sitting around watching your mind, breathing and fighting off your ego just doesn`t generate enough cash, er…I mean energy.

                  I suggest DNA re-activation therapy if you find you are a few strands short of your full Atlantean quota.

                  Or have you tried Psychic surgery, Vaginal steaming, Urine health tonic, Maggot Debridement Therapy, Tibetan Pumping or Mongolian plunging. They could save your life!

                  Or if you haven`t been stung enough already, how about Bee Venom Therapy?

                  If all else fails you can put in for a soul transplant.

                • satyadeva says:

                  I’ve tried psychic surgery around 25 years or so ago – only as a client though. The ‘surgeon’, Stephen Turoff, based in Chelmsford, Essex, took just a few minutes of plunging his hand into my stomach (which felt as if it was right inside my body, not painful but a pretty powerful energy experience), taking it out a few times to ‘throw away’ some toxic energy into a waste bin.

                  After this quite brief treatment I was delighted to find that the oppressive, stagnant, depressed, ‘ill’ feeling in that area that had weighed me down for a while had completely vanished, allowing me to enjoy a cup of tea etc. at a nearby cafe.

                  Over a few years I had several sessions with ST, each time producing welcome results. My partner at that time, who had hepatitis C, was also a client of his and the doctors were surprised to find that afterwards her viral readings had lessened dramatically.

                  Perhaps those sessions we had could have headed off more serious illness, and maybe even extended her lifespan.

                • satchit says:

                  This is how it goes:

                  Some make their money in the material world, some make it in the spiritual world.

                  New Age is not something new.
                  Religions have had this businessplan for centuries.

                • frank says:

                  SD,
                  I read something interesting by Alejandro Jodorowsky, the director famed for his psychedelic films and happenings in the 70s who has become some kind of wacky therapist, even guru in his own right.

                  Some decades ago, he became involved with Pacita, a famous psychic surgeon in Mexico. As a theatre man, he had an interesting take on the phenomenon. He reckoned that it was theatre, with the healer using knives, animal entrails and all sorts of props to do her `surgery`. Jodorowsky realised that what she was doing was not what she said she was doing, it was a show, but he nevertheless estimated that the whole theatrical set-up and performance was indeed a powerful experience for (some of) the patients and as a result, at times, seemingly remarkable emotional and physical results ensued.

                  I don`t know anything about this stuff for myself. I have never even had homeopathy or acupuncture. But the idea of magic being theatrical interests me. After all, have you ever visited an enlightened one who wasn`t sitting on a stage with the disciples as an audience?
                  It doesn`t get more theatrical than that.

                  Not everyone has such an open-minded view about psychic surgery, mind, which is understandable too.

                  The most famous and successful practitioner of psychic surgery in the world was John of God, the Brazilian healer who was busted 3 years ago long on 600 counts of rape and sexual abuse. He`s doing 63 years.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  I recall Stephen Turoff, a friend of mine went for treatment with him. She came out of it rather impressed and feeling better, but didn’t go back a second time.

                  Regarding the book, @frank, I think quite a few sannyasins move in this direction already, judging by the ads on OshoNews. Some of it I would say is perfectly valid like Mystic Rose groups, but some of the rest looks a little dodgy.

                  Bee venom therapy sounds tricky, don’t bees die when they sting something?

  3. satchit says:

    I think one arrives somewhere ‘home’ when the inner guru is developed. In the connection with the outer guru this may happen.

    A sign is also that there is no search for any outer guru anymore.

    ‘Home’ is also not a place where one stays forever.
    Sometimes one leaves the home for a walk outside.

    • Nityaprem says:

      @satchit who wrote:
      “I think one arrives somewhere ‘home’ when the inner guru is developed. In the connection with the outer guru this may happen.”

      My uncle, a fun and wise man who died of cancer last year, was of the Taoist persuasion and set great store by the ‘inner guru’. In the last years of his life, he wrote several slim volumes of poetry, amongst them many dialogues with his inner guru. Unfortunately, to people other than him these dialogues turned out to be largely mediocre.

      My point is, you may find your inner guru to be less than eloquent, or insightful. It’s easy to fool yourself. In those cases, you may find a lot more in the way of wisdom more easily from external sources. But I have heard of other people who have developed an inner guru, so who knows?

      • satchit says:

        @ NP

        Basically it’s a case of resonance.
        If there is resonance, good, if not, forget it.

        Mediocre means there is no resonance for you.

        • Nityaprem says:

          @satchit

          How would you expect this communication with an inner guru to happen? It might be a bit much to expect fully-formed visions to appear in your mind’s eye….

          • satchit says:

            Dialogue with the inner guru?

            Sounds more like one part of the mind talking with another part of the mind.

            Maybe your uncle made a joke.

            • Nityaprem says:

              Yeah, that’s what I thought, maybe not so much a joke as a genuine attempt to leave something of his depths behind which ended up being not much more than mind talking to mind.

              But a lot of sannyasins are doing that by writing books, it’s entirely a question as to whether they get picked up by a wider audience. I was surprised how much stuff is now available free on the internet, especially spiritual books.

              • satchit says:

                Yes, spiritual books.

                Reminds me of:

                Neale Donald Walsh, ‘Conversations with God’.

                Also a dialogue….

                • Nityaprem says:

                  I was just reading the quotes people have put up from the Neale Donald Walsch books, it all seems rather simplified. Only two emotions, fear and love….

                • satchit says:

                  @ NP

                  Fact is: there is no voice. Just find your core, then everything
                  follows.

                  Peace, totality.

                • swamishanti says:

                  From what I’ve read of Neil Donald Walsch’s ‘Conversations with God’, I thought the books contained a highly useful message, that of creating one’s reality, or co-creating with ‘God’ or ‘Source’.

                  Coming back to the topic, on Osho and gurus, another from Osho’s lineage, Maitreya Ishwara, also claimed to be channelling a message from God/Source. A very different message of fatalism and global transformation.

                  I have no idea whether there will be any kind of major ‘shift’ in global consciousness in the near future, whatever one is most interested in is what they will focus on, and therefore those interested in meditation and growth will be focusing on awakening and consciousness and various gurus, which is now a worldwide phenomenon. This may appear as if a big shift in consciousness is taking place, however there are always a small minority of more conscious older souls who are interested in awakening and will be aware of others who are undergoing transformation.

                  Whereas ‘Conversations with God’ is about creating your own reality, Maitreya’s sounded more like the teaching style of various traditional Indian gurus and scriptures which teach predetermination.

                  I have no idea if all events are predetermined. It appears unlikely given the nature of this intrinsically violent world and all of the abominations and suffering, that the whole story was designed by a higher intelligence. And this little ball is only one small part of a vast universe.

                  It does appear highly likely to me, however, that there is an element of destiny. Many events are foretold and have been seen beforehand. Whether the whole thing is preprogrammed I have no way of knowing as I have no way of seeing the whole picture.

                  I currently have a theory that it could be a type of creative dream that just unfolds randomly, predetermined or not. But then the theory of karma and balance may not fit into that. Yet ancient texts such as the Ashtavakra Gita and many Indian gurus say otherwise.

                  Anyhow, here’s a satsang with Maitreya from 2000 recorded in the big Pyramid in Pune: https://youtu.be/SdVXHGRhVdY

                • swamishanti says:

                  A traditional depiction of Vishnu is that he creatively dreams all events of the universe into reality whilst he lies sleeping.

                  For the duration of one breath he manifests and destroys tiny universes which emanate from the pores of his skin. His one breath being equal to total universal time.

                • swamishanti says:

                  Another sannyasin, Ageh Bharti, has ‘channelled’ a book, ‘Allah Gawah Hai’ (‘Allah is the Witness’).

                  Which has so far only been published in Hindi.

                  Looks interesting:
                  https://www.oshonews.com/2021/12/26/kadambari-award-2021-for-ageh-bharti/

  4. simond says:

    You raised the question of giving up the search or giving up seeking. It’s a challenging question, which Frank has answered in his inimitable way. In many ways he has explored the issue so deeply that I have nothing to add. But I’ll try????

    I recognise I was on a seeking path, a search. A search for someone or something to provide me with a reassurance, answers, a sense of peace etc. The so-called spiritual path has been the pathway to seek answers to real and imagined questions.

    Moreover, from birth to death, each of us is on a path or journey. Some are aware of this seeking whilst others go through life with less need to make this conscious and are more oblivious to the deeper questions in Life. But regardless, the search continues for everyone. Whether it’s the seeking of more money, more security, or more love, or more so-called truth. The seeking in some senses never ends. We seek food and shelter and are required to continue this to the very end. Seeking is therefore part of living and can never be “given up”.

    One of my profoundest learnings was to see how what I once thought of as my search was to a large degree a “running away”. So whilst it appeared I was looking for more truth and a real understanding, so I was also running away to a great degree.

    It was also my conclusion that those who profess the spiritual path were themselves, like me, also running away.

    Wearing red, hanging around gurus, reading spiritual books, doing therapy, meditating itself can be and was for me a means to run away. Being a sannyassin, being a follower, a disciple, were means by which I could run away in order to try to make myself “feel better”, “heal trauma”. I could identify myself as a serious seeker, all the while ignoring the fact that the seeking was itself part of the problem.

    To separate myself from ordinary life by identifying myself as a seeker has an unwanted and hidden consequence. It separates me from ordinary men and women. The idea of a commune, or a retreat, the idea of a spiritual life itself can become a barrier to normal life. It can make us spiritual people feel just a bit “special”. A bit above the common man or woman, with their daily humdrum lives.

    Such is the effect of spiritual communities, monastics, ashrams etc.

    I don’t mean I could ignore the seeking, or get to where I am without some intent and soul searching, but there definitely comes a point where you discover that the searching is part of the problem.

    We’ve all had these moments when life stops, or during a meditation, wherever it may be, when we realise or discover we are “ok”. This may be in a glorious moment of transcendental awakening, or in some far less grandiose manner, but we are likely all to have felt it.

    In some ways such moments are the start of our problems, as these oneness experiences can be the moment when we recognise how divided we are in our normal everyday life. And so we start looking for these transcendental moments again and again. Through drugs, therapy, meditations or wherever the search for what Osho called “bliss” can become feverish or obsessional.

    Meeting Barry Long was a starting point for seeing how my prior seeking had itself become problematic. But he too also became rather too “Master”-focused for me. But it was refreshing to hear someone talking about ordinary life, about being responsible for my daily moods and frustrations. In other ways he expressed how the search for “peace” could be discovered in any one moment and didn’t require years of practice or meditations. In this sense he was hinting at the end of the seeking process at all.

    As the years have gone by, so the need for peace, stillness and bliss has dissipated. The dissipation occurred not through trying to get more peace, but by giving up the idea of a permanent state of peace.

    Osho had inadvertently fed my desire for a permanent state of bliss. What he called bliss I realised was just a state of mind where nothing much was going on. There aren’t the feelings in this state of bliss that I once imagined. The “bliss” is the consequence of a less feverish and doubtful mind. Whereas once I was confounded by feelings of inadequacy and insecurities and worries, now I was far less so.

    However, life’s challenges never disappear. There are always moments when the unknown appears, life feels scary, people are overly frightening in their aggression. There is no end to this, and therefore no end to seeking new ways to learn, and new ways to understand the mysteries of life.

    • Nityaprem says:

      Thank you @simond…

      When you start looking seriously at what you are searching for, the idea of peace, stillness and bliss seems to make quite a bit of sense, and I’ve read a fair few pieces where Osho seems to support this. The bit in the question in The Search where he says, “[only after committing to a Master] does the real work start” implies that he has a longer path planned out, eventually leading to the bliss he talks about.

      There are various other sources which don’t agree with this. The Buddhists often talk about equanimity and cessation after a long path, quite a different goal, and Barry Long talks about about discovering peace in the moment, a different approach. So it seems different traditions and masters set out quite different end states for the search.

      But what starts the search is an impulse, that ‘something is lacking’. Some people encounter it at a young age, others when they are older. What exactly it is is given shape by the teachers you find. They fill in the goal for you, and sometimes that is enough. Osho says when you find the right teacher you drop the search.

      Life does indeed carry on, but can we be transformed so that we experience it differently?

      • frank says:

        “Can we be transformed so that we experience it (life) differently?”

        It may help to be specific about what the thing that needs changing actually is and why you feel it must be changed.

        Otherwise how is it different from wondering whether to wear the Pierre Cardin suit or the Vivienne Westwood culottes to the party?

        • simond says:

          Well said, Frank.

          The detail or the specifics are what many miss.

          Instead we go round in circles debating the finer points of theory. This is exactly the problem with most of the non-dualists whose emphasis is on the “being & awareness”, or looking for the “Now”.

          • frank says:

            @Simond,
            Yes, in any walk of life, more clearly formulated questions tend to get clearer answers.

            Non-dualists like a good waffle, though.
            Did you know, for example, that your problems are simply appearances of impersonal thoughtforms arising in the illusory mindspace of duality which is a contraction of the egoic consciousness of non-doing by the knower of nescience into the nothingness of core nowness that is self-manifested by the illusion of non-being?

        • Nityaprem says:

          Osho did say on a banner above the entrance to one of the Mount Abu meditation camps, “Come to me and I will transform you.” And he did deliver, a lot of sannyasins who came to him were definitely changed people afterwards. A lot of sannyasins I have known were rather special people, just a different kind of energy around them.

          What made them different? Their connection to Osho, of course, but also an appreciation of art and design, a creativity, a free-spiritedness that didn’t care so much about money, courage, an alternative way of looking at the world.

          In a way that is what sannyas brings. A new name, a master, a mala with his photo inside, a red robe. Just that is enough to mark a man and change his life. But also the psychological changes: a sense of belonging, discourses, meditation, groups.

          Maybe that is enough to fulfil the spiritual search.

          • frank says:

            @NP
            Again though, what is the search actually for?

            For a cave, there to sit in your chuddies on a tiger skin with white light emanating from your third eye, as you say to yourself: “I made it”?

            The same, but in a far-flung monastery peopled with serene saffron slapheads nodding sagely and saying: ”Very good, grasshopper”?

            Having an interesting, creative life or accepting a normal one with enlightened acceptance?
            Living any life, even a crappy one, with the undercurrent feeling of `this is as good as it gets`?

            • satchit says:

              “what is the search actually for?”

              Asking for meaning you can do in all directions.

              What is life actually for, because death is waiting sooner or later?

              • simond says:

                U would definitely pass all the Guru examinations with your wise words.

                But as to assisting an ignoramus like me, it’s not very helpful.

                Perhaps you could answer your own question in more depth, in your own words rather than a quote from Osho.

                • satchit says:

                  U are certainly not that ignoramus, you pretend to be.

                  I don’t know what the meaning of life is.
                  Maybe there is no meaning.
                  But I can understand that there is an urge to know oneself.

                  Some seeking for an answer, also for the “Why am I here?”

            • Nityaprem says:

              What is the meaning of life? Can you do better than to follow a mysterious mystical urge to a far away sage who promises to transform you?

              I think the whole point of enlightenment is to discover the point of enlightenment. The meaning should stand revealed through the transformation.

              • satyadeva says:

                Best I’ve come across is BL’s “the purpose of life is to be life”. Then, I imagine, all such questions are answered – or become redundant. Beyond that, who knows? An eternal mystery, perhaps, beyond the reach of our mental processes….

  5. Nityaprem says:

    Is the spiritual impulse just a desire to give meaning then? Or is it something of its own, like the desire for sex, an impulse to add a new dimension to your life?

    For most people religion explains some things and then raises a whole lot more questions, which often add a lot more to one’s life than the answer to the original question… It’s a storytelling exercise where the introduction of continual new elements keeps the ball rolling and rolling. For instance, have you ever tried to read the Bible?

    In that way I found Osho’s later years rather interesting, because he simplified. From talking about many religions he seemed to go down to mostly just Zen.

  6. simond says:

    I am somewhat surprised by the responses to the questions regarding the so-called meaning of life.

    It is of course a very abstract question and the very nature of the abstract is that it largely leads nowhere.

    If I ask what is the meaning of life, I sense a subtle panic within. It seems like a question we all ask but is so difficult to answer that I’m reminded of being at school, where I’m asked a question I’m supposed to be able to answer.

    But there’s a simple solution, don’t make it abstract, but turn itself into a question about Me. So it becomes another entirely. “What is the meaning or purpose of my Lif This simple trick takes the intellectual abstract into a more direct and personal exploration of my own purpose and meaning.

    Now I’m freed up to examine my life, in a real way. I can look at my achievements or my mistakes, I can reflect on how my mind and my emotions, and any challenges, have and do affect me. In other words the question becomes yet another one: Who am I? And so, even more questions follow on. Why do I act in this or that way? What disturbs or hurts me? What other forms of self-identity have I taken on? How authentic am I?

    I see that many people find these questions difficult.They are a challenge as they involve being honest about myself to and with others. They involve investigating relationships, partners, women, parents, children. They mean discussing jobs, money, self-worth, all areas of real life. Many of which I see we avoid. Instead we prefer to talk about spirituality and meditation, non- duality, Osho, enlightenment and other abstract and impersonal matters.

    The personal questions eventually lead to exploring the wider Mind of others. If we explore our own minds, so we discover our minds aren’t so different from anyone else’s. The mind is the mind after all. And our own life experiences and challenges aren’t so different from others’. The more we share our own minds, the more we discover where and if our experiences coalesce.

    Such explorations can then lead us to discover not only our own purpose and meaning but where the wider “human condition” may have parallels with our own understanding.

    They’ve led me to see that not only am I on my own personal journey to a greater understanding but so too is the human species as a whole. As I’ve evolved so I can see humans are in some sense evolving and sometimes perhaps devolving too. There is in some sense, I can never fully know, a mystery unfolding. I’m a part of it as is everyone else.

    Where I once fretted about my own loneliness and angst, I see that others are too similarly facing the same doubts. I no longer feel so divided or separate from my fellow man or woman.

    The meaning of life has become a question that can be answered if never fully or with certainty but at least it isn’t just an abstract question, but one that anyone can investigate for themselves.

  7. Nityaprem says:

    @satchit, who wrote “the good auld days…”

    Very nice to see Osho with a dark beard, it looks like footage from a meditation camp perhaps? Shame the speech is all dubbed in Italian, but still a good find!

  8. Klaus says:

    Sometimes, although a teacher – or even THE teacher – is available, which nowadays is quite often the case via internet and even physically, and even though one considers oneself a person on a spiritual search, there still is no capacity “to take on (or in) more of it”:

    One more talk and another talk and another one. Or sessions online or live.
    Or new words for known methods (Embodiment, empowerment for instance…).

    There may be a need for more tranquility, walks in nature, watching the clouds in the sky, sleeping under the moon with just a sleeping bag…in order not to feel excited all the time.

    That’s what I am in currently, it seems: I could not find any stance or words or opinion somehow suiting the items on this thread…maybe that’s good for me. And for you, too! Hahahahaaaa.

    • Nityaprem says:

      @Klaus, who wrote: “There may be a need for more tranquility, walks in nature, watching the clouds in the sky, sleeping under the moon with just a sleeping bag…in order not to feel excited all the time.”

      Reconnecting with nature really helps me from time to time as well. I get on my bicycle and ride through the forests and past the wetlands and on the dikes, sea to one side, land on the other, a sky filled with impressive clouds overhead. The feeling of moving quickly, wind in the hair, helps concentrate the mind.

      I used to go on walking holidays in the mountains. I’ve been to Wales, Scotland, the Alsace, the Alps, the Pyrenees, Turkey…quite a few places. But always on reaching high places in the mountains I’ve had that feeling of openness, of being able to see far away, that was close to a spiritual experience. I’ve never been to the Himalayas though.

      • swamishanti says:

        @Nityaprem

        My experience of Holland was that it is exceptionally flat and also good for cycling. Everyone took bikes.

        Perhaps the lack of hills is what inspires you to take your trekking holidays in other lands.

        ‘The Lowlands of Holland’…
        https://youtu.be/1cQ4xPhmT3g

        • Klaus says:

          The Lowlands of Holland

          Quite a few, in fact many years ago I went paddling in Holland – near Monnickendam to Purmerend.
          Somehow I must have missed a turn and ended in a dead end. Then a took the boat and carried it over the road and put it in on the other side from where I could carry on!

          Instead of the planned 8-10 kilometres or so in the end I did round about 30 kilometres.
          But the experience! Wind, water, sun, physical effort, close to everything. Plus a sunburn lasting 3-4 days.

          Would do it again!

          Cheers to Holland.

          • swamishanti says:

            Whilst walking in the Welsh mountains, or at least the foothills of the mountains, I have come across clear quartz crystals just lying on the earth.

            You won’t find crystals in Holland, just lots of flat ground, clogs, windmills and some good cheeses.

            • Lokesh says:

              Every winter I go ski-ing in the Dutch Alps.

              Joking apart, I had an apartment in Amsterdam’s Jordaan area for some years. It was a fun time. Eventually, I tired of it. I’m a country bumpkin at heart.

    • Nityaprem says:

      @klaus who said: “Sometimes, although a teacher – or even THE teacher – is available, which nowadays is quite often the case via internet and even physically, and even though one considers oneself a person on a spiritual search, there still is no capacity ‘to take on (or in) more of it.’”

      I think it is much more difficult to assess a teacher online. For example, I was watching an interview with Tony Parsons on Conscious TV, and I thought, maybe this guy has something, because of his laugh, his openness, and his clarity. Then I talk to my father, who went to see him in person a few years ago in Amsterdam, and he says, “I didn’t think he had it.”

      With Osho, there was this luminous quality to him, so clean, like the light of the full moon. In person this would often just blow people away. Not everyone would feel it, but for me it was unmistakable. But in a way he came too soon, I had much living to do, I needed to taste of other things before I could approach again.

      So for me, was he the first and last guru? I still feel a liking for Ramana and his lineage. Maybe there is more wandering to be done…

      • Lokesh says:

        NP says: “With Osho, there was this luminous quality to him, so clean, like the light of the full moon. In person this would often just blow people away.”

        Can’t disagree with that, but how do you know he ‘had it’? The truth is you do not know. He might have had something, but you do not actually know if it was ‘it’ or not. We can only recognize something in another that we know in ourselves. Otherwise, it is just guesswork.

        • Klaus says:

          Feeling is closer to being than thinking.

          Putting the label on it is not essential.

          My guess.

          • Klaus says:

            Actually, I wanted to put the comment more nicely…like:

            In between and wiggled around the thoughts and the feelings and sensations and the emotions we all have clear consciousness.

            Therefore, everybody can feel it to a greater or lesser extent in varying degrees….

        • Nityaprem says:

          @lokesh wrote: “Can’t disagree with that, but how do you know he ‘had it’?” and “We can only recognize something in another that we know in ourselves.”

          I think Osho said so himself, it’s an affair of the heart. You have to be open to it, and far enough along that you do recognise something of it in yourself, that you recognise it as the right road. And that you see in his presence someone you can trust.

          If you start to analyse it, you are on the cusp of losing touch with that feeling. I think many people lose contact with the heart as they get older, they accumulate wounds and acquire habits which are hard to shift, which is one reason so many sannyasins were of a certain age.

          • Lokesh says:

            NP says: “I think many people lose contact with the heart as they get older, they accumulate wounds and acquire habits which are hard to shift, which is one reason so many sannyasins were of a certain age.”

            This is based on pure speculation that is not grounded in fact.

            Yes, as people age they often tend to live more habitually for one reason or another. This does not mean that the elderly lose contact with their feelings. I know many elderly people who are open-hearted. Going through the trials and tribulations that accompany ageing often serves to make people more sensitive, due to the vulnerability that is part and parcel of ageing. This in turn serves to create compassion in one’s heart because one realizes everyone is on the same boat.

            That many sannyasins were of a certain age is pure nonsense. You were just a kid in Poona One and therefore were perhaps unaware that all age groups formed the community, from the very young to the elderly. The need for deeper meaning in life can arrive in an individual’s life at any time. It hits some when they are young, others when they are old. It all depends on the individual.

            As for Osho saying it was an affair of the heart, yes, he said that. He also said a lot of other things. So what? Osho says ad infinitum. That is one thing that you can also realise when you age…you don’t need to parrot a guru’s words, because you have the wealth of your own experience to work from and, if you have lived well, it serves one better than what somebody else says, no matter how enlightened they were.

      • swamishanti says:

        @Nityaprem wonders whether he will travel on with Buddha, Osho, or perhaps Ramana.

        I guess Ramana Maharshi might say, it all depends on your destiny….

      • satchit says:

        @ NP

        “I didn’t think he had it.”

        Maybe your father ‘has it’.
        Is he not already long enough a sannyasin?

        • Nityaprem says:

          @satchit

          That’s a terrifying thought that my father might be enlightened. He has been a sannyasin for a long time, but he still watches ‘Ancient Aliens’ on tv.

          • satchit says:

            @ NP

            Watching ‘Ancient Aliens’ on tv is a good sign for enlightenment.

            Anyway, if you take him as your new Guru, this would be the easy way.

            • Nityaprem says:

              @satchit

              I feel it pays one to choose gurus carefully. Much as I like my old dad, he is not really guru material. I’m pretty sure he’d agree, too. He found it difficult enough being a school teacher.

              • frank says:

                NP, having a dad is better than having a guru.
                I can`t stand gurus.
                If I ever run into one again and he starts giving me the old “it`s all mind”,”it`s your ego”, “who is asking?” bollocks, it`s going to be a choiceless choice giving the twat a weegie kiss and a short sharp knee in the cream crackers.

                • Klaus says:

                  If the guru was telling me, “It is all work. You have to do it. Nobody can do it for you.”
                  I would go: “Ooopssie.”

      • frank says:

        NP,
        Enlightenment is like the clap.
        A lot of sannyasins “had it”.

        • Nityaprem says:

          @frank

          Enlightenment as a communicable disease, how funny. Maybe it works like that, a lot of people at the commune were kind of blissed out…whether it helped with insight though, that I cannot tell.

          A lot of people these days do seem to be having enlightenment experiences, judging from books like Adyashanti’s ‘The End of Your World’, but it seems like very often it’s a temporary thing and not a lasting change.

  9. In my case, “the search” was/is more about how to explain in words the Joy of “this Just be/being”.

    When for some reason Life pushes me out from my/that centre, for example during an attack on my surviving/Freedom, or when It seduces me with something sensually exciting, what makes the difference is how Deep Is my trust in Existence, beyond my willingness to be part of It in some special form.

    • satyadeva says:

      Veet F, sounds good, but can you provide an actual practical example of this, please (as I don’t quite fully understand)?

      • Satyadeva, I reflected on Nityaprem’s question “do you eventually give up the search?”, replying that in my case the spiritual search is the side-effect of a spiritual experience of wholeness and ecstasy, that is, looking for the words that explain that experience.

        An example of these two aspects of research (of truthful explanations and experience of the truth of my being) could be my total disinterest, not even intellectual passion, for books recently suggested to me by a dear close friend. Scrolling through the titles of the paragraphs of the books in question (by David Deida) I recognized a certain competence and plausibility that fall within the standards of other reading fone in the past about the art of relating in intimacy, which would have at least left me curious for a deeper understanding…instead, nothing, a sort of rejection. Yet, at the same time, the feeling of care for her is still strong, but I no longer try to explain according to which model of intimacy or tantra.

        Does stopping reading, studying, reflecting, writing about spirituality mean stopping the inner process of witnessing in the spiritual seeker? I think not. Even when that experience of inner joy is only a faded memory, with all the pain that certain memories return, the research/testimony continues.

        Sometimes tired and in precarious balance I find myself on narrow and steep paths, and still wondering if I’m there for a death drive or for a deep trust in Existence. The roots of my trust in Existence are founded in the process of understanding the human being and his potential, despite wars, famines, cataclysms and animals predating men; all this at worst fuelling my desire for annihilation.

        • Nityaprem says:

          @veet francesco

          There are certain aspects I recognise there, like a lack of energy for spiritual teachers which some time before would have been interesting. I even had a time when I stopped listening to Osho lectures…

          I think the inner search does have a connection with what you feed the mind, books, new ideas. Without that you kind of withdraw into silence. I went through a period like that a few years ago when I reflected and meditated a lot and saw relatively few people, preferring just to stay in my top floor apartment with a glimpse of the sea. It was a quiet time, I read a few books but not many.

          I’ve been on a bit of a Ramana streak lately, listening to these readings on a YouTube channel where there are quite a few hours of stuff, not in his voice but still. He talks quite a bit about silence, being quiet, surrendering.

          And sometimes the right thing to do is just breathe, go walk up a mountain and enjoy the view.

          • Nityaprem, as for your father, a teaching like Osho’s is enough for me too. In reality, in my case, it is not a question of applying principles or rules of behaviour, but, rather, of drawing on the posture that his teaching method invites me to assume, of openness and trust in the abundance of options that an open heart always inspires.

            But what happens, for example, to our hearts when the teacher’s words, or despite them, trigger the behaviour of Sheela’s gang or Reagan’s one? What non-violent options are available against such violence? The implications of recognizing an objective violence taking place on our heads means preparing for defence and possible counter-attack, a somewhat unusual posture for a spiritual seeker, but I don’t think it is of less value.

            Can spiritual research be fuelled with new books and ideas that help make the war against humanity’s enemies more effective and less destructive? I would say yes.

            • Nityaprem says:

              Veet Francesco, I think there are usually options against violence. Look at Ghandi or at the Dalai Lama. We in the West are not very used to ahimsa, harmlessness, but for a spiritual seeker it is a very useful attitude.

    • Lokesh says:

      Trusting in Existence is all very well and also an old sannyasin motto. But what exactly is Existence? We probably all have different answers to that question. It is all good as long as it does not involve Mother Nature because she totally lacks compassion.

      The thing about the trusting in Existence game is that it requires 100% surrender. 99% will not do the trick.

      • Nityaprem says:

        @Lokesh

        I think that is what @veet francesco is saying, that the depth of his trust in Existence rather got challenged by a few situations. I can sympathise, it is easy to trust Existence when the fecal matter isn’t hitting the rotating air-moving device.

        • Lokesh says:

          Embracing what life brings is the name of the game. Not always easy.

        • Nityaprem, I believe shit has been hitting the global fan for a couple of years now. Talking about spiritual research could be a way to hold on to the past, wearing a brown shirt so as not to notice the sketches of the present.

          • Nityaprem says:

            @veet francesco

            The last couple of years haven’t been easy, but still…

            “The greatest gift you can give to the world is your own self realisation.”
            (Sri Ramana Maharshi)

          • Klaus says:

            Veet Francesco

            Shit happens in this world. That’s true.
            Who are the enemies of humankind?

            Al Jazeera has won two amnesty awards for best investigative documentary:

            Quote
            I-Unit wins for an investigation into Bangladesh state corruption; AJ English wins for a report on rape as a weapon of war.
            Unquote
            https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/5/al-jazeera-wins-amnesty-media-awards-for-best-investigation

            And here is the documentary of 1 hour in English: ‘All the Prime Minister’s Men’
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6v_levbUN4

            The incriminated guys grew up in a poor family in Dhaka/Bangladesh. For a living, they turned to gang criminality at an early age. They became so important that politicians turned to them for their “help”.
            Today, one of the brothers is the Army General and so forth and so forth….

            Reading the comments below the video is also quite interesting.

            This is not meant to push ourselves into more depression, but to see how others must live and feel the heartbreak that this (might) mean for humankind in general. And for each individual hit by such circumstances.

            “We don’t need our own criminal thugs. We own the police.”

            Goodluck.

            • Lokesh says:

              I read something along the lines of this yesterday. The problems of the world are like a sea. You are like a boat on the surface of this vast expanse of water. If you do not allow the waters of negativity to enter your boat, you will sail home. I kinda like that idea.

              • Klaus says:

                Oh, the guy has an upside down umbrella as a boat! Cool.

                The affairs of the world are endless…so should be our equanimity.

              • Klaus says:

                Watching the Al Jazeera video ‘All the (Bangladesh) Prime Minister’s Men’ I did not let negativity overcome me.

                Rather, I came down from naivety, over-positivity regarding the possiblities of change in that country’s politicial situation.

                I feel I was naive in that I approached actions with a “can do” and a totally ethical attitude: that a party or a candidate can win without any cheating, deceiving, criminal support – ballot stuffing, vote snatching, intimidation of voters at the booth, harassing the other candidates and so forth.

                Mind you, Rajneeshpuram also comes to mind: non-corrupted and non-criminal actions could have brought different results. Possibly, in my naive mind.
                We were close “to the action”, weren’t we?

                I am quite close to the action in Bangladesh as my relatives are telling me tales of their efforts to vote: “When I wanted to cast my vote the observers were telling me that my vote ‘already had been cast’.”

                A few years ago I took part in a presentation of how “EVM electronic voting machines can be corrupted via mobile phones”. Result: they can be!

                In the upcoming elections the Bangladesh government suggests that EVMs will be used in all voting stations.
                As a consequence, IMO presumably not one single result will be correct.

                In this sense I had ‘a real life eperience’: such is the world.

                Cheers.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Klaus, I understand your reasons for checking out political developments in Bangladesh. Thing is, even though it can affect our lives, politics is a very low energy game. Look at that nutcase, Putin, a perfect example of a lying politician, who will do anything to prolong his grip on power, even if it involves slaughtering thousands of innocent people.

                  This world has had wars going on since humans first roamed the Earth. Nothing new there.
                  I see it that our stay here is brief, so why get identified with any of that bullshit, unless some fascists are kicking in your front door? It is a passing show and it has been running for a very long time.

                • Klaus says:

                  Lokesh

                  Yes, that is clear to me, too. Observing is kind of a hobby.
                  Plus it brings disillusionment with it and loss of hope.
                  So I am losing baggage and finding compassion.

                  Losing is good.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  @Klaus

                  After all the things Osho had to say about politics and politicians, we still have to realise that it has very little benefit for the world or ourselves to get involved. Why not spend your time in a more wholesome way, like something creative or therapeutic?

              • Nityaprem says:

                @Lokesh

                You are right with your boat metaphor. But we get so much “news” pushed at us that it’s easy to make the mistake to think that it’s important to us.

                Some time ago I made the decision not to watch news on the tv anymore, and to drastically reduce my news intake from the internet. I now check The Guardian’s front page once a day, read maybe one or two articles and that’s it.

                I can thoroughly recommend it. You almost certainly won’t miss anything important, end up spending a lot less time and be a lot less anxious.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Snap! I made a similar decision quite a while ago, NP, severely rationing my exposure to the news media.

                  But I do enjoy the brilliant satirical humour of John Crace and Marina Hyde in the online ‘Guardian’ and more or less anything critical of Boris Johnson whom I’ve enjoyed having come to thoroughly detest (very therapeutic, I find!).

                • Klaus says:

                  @Nityaprem

                  Very sound advice, thanks.

                  I haven’t been watching TV news for x years.
                  I also read the Guardian online 3-4 times a week – certainly not the war news, however.

                  Rather “A new start after 60″ – “Beautiful homes in the countryside” – “Australian First Dog on the Moon” cartoons…

                  2-3 times a week I check the dailystar.net for news on Bangladesh (I have many relatives there…).

                  I spend about 3 hours a day walking in nature with the occasional sitting meditation and or zikhr (if it comes by itself).

                  In the mornings and before sleep I do some QiGong (these 15 minutes affect sleep quality indeed!).

                  In the mornings, too, I prepare my daughter’s lunchbox and bring her to school; later I help her doing some homework and study.

                  My wife and daugther took part in the last Ramadan, we celebrated Iftars and Eid, with very, very healthy food; spent half days in silence.

                  In this way, my life is quite wholesome.
                  No complaints from my side…I do not miss this world too much, once I have lost it….

                • Lokesh says:

                  Frustration across the nation…the news is always bad. Reading and watching the news is more a men thing. Women take in less crap on that level than men do. I never watch TV news but read the Guardian online etc.

                  Back in 1984 Alvin Toffler published a book called Future Shock. Toffler predicted that news would become a major form of entertainment. He was right.

                  Broadcasters understand that bad news sells because it feeds people’s negative emotions. The war in Ukraine is a goldmine for them.

                  Makes me think of a Don Henley song, ‘Dirty Laundry’…

                  I make my living off the evening news
                  Just give me something, something I can use
                  People love it when you lose, they love dirty laundry

                  Well, I could’ve been an actor, but I wound up here
                  I just have to look good, I don’t have to be clear
                  Come and whisper in my ear, give us dirty laundry

                  Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down
                  Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down
                  Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down
                  Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em all around

                  We got the bubble-headed bleach-blonde who comes on at five
                  She can tell you about the plane crash with a gleam in her eye
                  It’s interesting when people die, give us dirty laundry
                  Can we film the operation? Is the head dead yet?
                  You know the boys in the newsroom got a running bet
                  Get the widow on the set, we need dirty laundry

                  You don’t really need to find out what’s going on
                  You don’t really want to know just how far it’s gone
                  Just leave well enough alone, keep your dirty laundry

                  Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down
                  Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down
                  Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down
                  Kick ‘em when they’re stiff, kick ‘em all around

                  (Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down)
                  (Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down)
                  (Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down)
                  (Kick ‘em when they’re stiff, kick ‘em all around)

                  Dirty little secrets, dirty little lies
                  We got our dirty little fingers in everybody’s pie
                  Love to cut you down to size, we love dirty laundry

                  We can do the innuendo, we can dance and sing
                  When it’s said and done, we haven’t told you a thing
                  We all know that crap is king, give us dirty laundry
                  (Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down)….

                • Klaus says:

                  Don Henley:
                  I dedicate this song to Rupert Murdoch!’

                  I saved the live version with Glen Frey to my favourites 2 weeks ago!

                  Got rhythm ‘n makes sense.

                • frank says:

                  I like to watch a lot of news. I wouldn`t want to be in a situation where I didn`t know what was going on in the world. I need to know exactly and by the minute, how many people have been blown to bits, knifed, shot and mugged within a proximity of say, 8000 miles from where I live. And simply couldn`t live without knowing which celebrity has shagged which other celebrity, especially when it turns nasty and ends up in court. And then there`s the advertising, it`s amazing how all the ads that appear in front of me are exactly what I want and need just at that moment. Who says magic doesn`t exist?

                  Ok, it can get a bit tense at times, but then I just log on to some porn sites to relax for a few hours and have the odd break for a burger, soft drinks, beers and some chocolate muffins. And if I`m feeling philosophical after taking some drugs I bought on the dark web and need some alternative views I switch onto Joe Rogan, Russell Brand and Alex Jones. I`m a firm believer in keeping informed and getting a holistic view, too.

                • Klaus says:

                  @Frank

                  Ah, thanks for coming in and bringing some balance.

                  Just in time. ::))

                • frank says:

                  When you think about it, looking for gurus is a lot like surfing the channels on TV looking for something decent to watch.

                  In the end, people tend to either give up as new stuff is mostly cack, or they end up watching reruns of their old favourites….

                • frank says:

                  I remember reading about an anthropologist in some far-flung place studying some tribe in Meso America, I think, sometime in the 1970s.

                  They told him about a private ritual that they did every week and he was very interested to be the first westerner that had heard about it. They arranged for him to be present. They were very happy and enthusiastic about this ritual and the anthropologist became convinced that he was really onto something. He was ambitious and sure that he was going to make it big in anthropology as a result of this ground-breaking work.

                  On the evening of the ritual everyone was in high spirits and they all met at the tribal elder`s hut. In the corner was a cloth covering what was obviously the ritual object. With great reverence the elder removed the cloth and under it was a TV set. They then proceeded to watch ‘The Partridge Family’ with all the tribals falling about laughing and enjoying themselves immensely.

                • satchit says:

                  @ Frank

                  It is a shallow idea that looking for gurus is like surfing the channels of the tv.

                  As I see it there is some hunger and crisis needed.

                  If everything is fine there is no need for a guru.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  @Lokesh

                  I believe you’ll find ‘Future Shock’ was first published in 1970, but it was far ahead of its time. The young people are able to keep up with the pace of change, and the older folks say, “Boy, doesn’t the world move fast?”

                  Also RIP the iPod, discontinued today by Apple. I remember when you could first get one of these devices which would put “10,000 songs in your pocket”, as Steve Jobs put it.

                • frank says:

                  Perfectly correct, Satchit!
                  It is certainly a shallow idea that looking for gurus is like surfing the channels of the tv, unless of course, one is watching the box in mighty Bhorat:
                  https://www.tvchannelpricelist.com/channel_category/spiritual-channels/

                  Certainly, not all disciples can achieve the oceanic depths of profundity of an Ananda…a Tilopa…a Shantam…a Dhyanraj…a Satchit…
                  And it is utterly clear that the depth of your statements on SN are nearly as deep as the depth of guano, parrot droppings and empty bottles of Alzheimer Pils strewn on the floor of your parrot cage!

                  Swami Bhorat and Osho are extremely fortunate to have disciples of your calibre!
                  Without you, their movements would have sunk into the oblivion of Netflix crime documentaries, abuse scandals, inter-sect power struggles, counter-accusations of a string various felonies and the odd spiritually-retarded football fan endlessly posting glib, facile, flimsy spiritual quotes on an obscure website!

                  Hari Om!
                  Yahoo!

                • Klaus says:

                  @Nityaprem
                  11 May, 2022 at 7:18 am

                  In the 70s my favourite books regarding the state of society were:
                  Dennis Meadows and the Club of Rome – Limits of Growth
                  Neil Postman – Amusing ourselves to death
                  Alvin Toffler – Future shock

                  Those still seem to have at least some reverberation today.

                • Klaus says:

                  Link to Neil Postman:
                  https://neilpostman.org/

                  Quote:
                  Subjects should be taught as history. “Every teacher,” Postman said, “must be a history teacher.” Every subject has a fascinating history. Facts and dates are memorization, not understanding. To teach a subject without the history of how it happened “is to reduce knowledge to a mere consumer product,” he said. “It is to deprive students of a sense of the meaning of what we know, and of how we know.”

                  Smart understanding.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  @klaus

                  Thanks for the Neil Postman link and quote, I very much agree with him. I once had a physics teacher who taught in that style, with experiments and lives of scientists from centuries past, it was fascinating. Probably the best teacher I ever had.

          • Klaus says:

            Veet Francesco

            Shit happens in this world. That’s true.
            Who are the enemies of humankind?

            Al Jazeera has won two amnesty awards for best investigative documentary:

            Quote
            I-Unit wins for an investigation into Bangladesh state corruption; AJ English wins for a report on rape as a weapon of war.
            Unquote
            https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/5/al-jazeera-wins-amnesty-media-awards-for-best-investigation

            And here ist the documentary of 1 hour in English: “All the Prime Minister’s Men”
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6v_levbUN4

            The incriminated guys grew up in a poor family in Dhaka/Bangladesh. For a living, they turned to gang criminality at an early age. They became so important, that politicians turned to them for their “help”.
            Today, one of the brothers is the Army General and so forth and so forth…..

            Reading the comments below the video is also quite interesting.

            This is not meant to push ourselves into more depression, but to see how others must live and feel the heartbreak that this (might) mean(s) for humankind in general. And for each individual hit by such circumstances.

            “We don’t need our own criminal thugs. We own the police.”

            Goodluck.

            • Ciao, Klaus, there are global institutions which can do criminal policies without paying for It. To understand Who Is the entity-ies backstage you have to follow the Money. (Giovanni Falcone).

              • Klaus says:

                Veet Francesco

                I once read this quote:
                ‘Those who have the strongest weapons will get (most of) the money.’

                In the end, this will be what weapons are used for….

                • satyadeva says:

                  That’s been the case for a very long time though, Klaus.

                • Klaus says:

                  Satyadeva

                  I guess that’s correct.
                  Only one did not know about so many things as we do now.

                  And nobody promised that the world would only get better.

                  One keeps on getting disillusioned, step by step.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  It certainly was true in the days of gold and silver. Recent wars seem to have been about other things, like IS or Yemen or Ukraine.

              • Klaus says:

                @Veet Francesco

                On a positive note:
                In 1984 I met an Italian guy named Mauro Bergonzi on a meditation retreat in UK. We had a great mutual understanding.

                Last week, I had the impulse to check if I could find out what he might be up to currently…and guess what:

                He is himself teaching meditation at
                https://cortonafriends.org/mauro-bergonzi/

                Lovely, indeed.

      • satchit says:

        ‘Trusting in Existence’.
        “But what exactly is Existence?”

        Yeah,Loco, you can also ask, but what exactly is trust?

        Remember the words of your Master:
        “Real trust cannot be betrayed.” ?

  10. Grateful that you joined the chat here, Nityaprem – and in my view with an equanimity quite needed in these turbulent times.

    I m still busy with your last lines of the thread narrative as the quest of yours where you mention the ZEN Bulls reminded me of times in Pune 2 where some Japanese and one Chinese calligrapher started the ’10 Bull Paintings’.
    We were in awe about it, seeing the painters in the Garden.

    There are simply Metaphors, Narratives and Recomments which never die, aren’t there?

    Rainy Sunday here. Nature enjoys!

    Madhu

    MOD:
    Good to see you here again, Madhu.

    Could you clarify what “Recomments” are, please?

    • Nityaprem says:

      @madhu dagmar frantzen

      It’s my pleasure to be here; lately I have been thinking a lot about Osho and the spiritual search, and it made sense to find one of the few places on the internet where one can talk with fellow sannyasins.

      Some quotes, stories, pictures and poetry indeed never die, but get passed on to the next generation.

      Ramana quote for the day…
      “The Power that created you has created the world as well. If it can take care of you, it can similarily take care of the world also. If God has created the world, it is His business to look after it, not yours.”
      (Sri Ramana Maharshi)

      • Well – Nityaprem – this was and is a quite powerful quote you passed over ( without inner or outer then context from the loving and lovely Sangha around this – one can say pinnacle of a human Being -times and times ago )

        What I have in my shelves are heartwarming testimonials from his Lovers frim times ago

        I mean- besides the photos from Ramana taken by His Lovers – which seem to give – up to today – an impression of a Living Warmth.

        And yet- from some hear-say – I heard from some fellow travellers who visited the place Arunachala that He- Ramana-
        could silence questioners also in a stern way up to the point to throw some out from the gathering.

        Would love to know more of your context to your chosen quote, if you don t mind ?

        I ended up like so often in the inner search re the ability to respond or vice versa the inability to respond with the danger to be in a ” flight-fight-freeze” old habits.
        As far as ” God” is concerned ” He” left that kind of work discernment) over for that bodhy-mind-Soul called “me”.

        About the Love in Ramana s Presence, we cannot speak I d say.

        Madhu

        PS for Lokesh:
        weather today :sunny and exhausting heat. Will soon be time to water the garden.

        • Lokesh says:

          Madhu, thanks for the hot weather update.

          Btw, did you watch the sannyasin docu on NDR last night? All about sannyasins in Germany then and now. Positive and fun at times. Made me realize I was once part of a religious cult. It was a blast and Osho was groovy. ZZ Top of the spiritual world. Sheela was, once again, shown to be the stupid egotist she always was.

          • @Lokesh

            I will have to wait a bit before watching the doc on NDR last night – as – for a week now,
            I m not able, for tech reasons, to watch anything on TV or broadcasting media tech stuff – as my borrowed notebook (to do this) hasn’t functioned for a week.

            You say, Lokesh, the mentioned NDR TV contribution made you realize you were once a part of a religious cult.

            No surprise I guess that we may have a different view according re our sannyas life-story?

            Weather report of the day: Cloudy. Cooled down temperature (which is good for my health-situation at my place here).

            Me: Cloud watching…in – as outside.

            Madhu

            • Lokesh says:

              Perhaps your brainwashing was different. Osho washes better than ever before.

              • @ Lokesh/ 12 May, 2022 at 2:27 pm

                GASLIGHTING (from ‘Psychology Today’, 2020)

                “Some people try to be tall by cutting off the heads of others.”

                — Paramahansa Yogananda

                Gaslighting is a form of persistent manipulation and brainwashing that causes the victim to doubt her or himself, and to ultimately lose one’s own sense of perception, identity, and self-worth. Gaslighting statements and accusations are usually based on blatant lies, or exaggeration of the truth.

                Passive-aggressiveness can be defined as anger or hostility in disguise, expressed in underhanded ways to exercise power, control, and deception, with the hopes of “getting away with it.”

                Although many forms of gaslighting are overt and obtrusive (i.e. persistent and false verbal attacks, accusations, condescension, judgement, and criticism), there are also passive-aggressive forms of gaslighting that are more subtle and difficult to detect at the outset, and can carry the same negative contagion and toxic manipulativeness as overt gaslighting.

          • Nityaprem says:

            @Lokesh, who wrote “made me realize I was once part of a religious cult.”

            It’s easy to default to society’s view and call it a cult. But then you haven’t learned what Osho had to say about society, who was often a rebel and a man of religiousness, not religion. I still think of Sannyas as a movement, not as a cult, and it is part of a continuing dialogue to frame it that way.

            • Lokesh says:

              A cult is a group or movement held together by a shared commitment to a charismatic leader or ideology. It has a belief system that has the answers to all of life’s questions and offers a special solution to be gained only by following the leader’s rules, and if you do not think there were any rules you are dreaming. You can tick the boxes and see if Sannyas constitutes a cult:

              The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.
              The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
              The group is preoccupied with making money.
              Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
              Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
              The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth).
              The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity).
              The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society.
              The group’s leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations).
              The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means that members would have considered unethical before joining the group (for example: collecting money for bogus charities).
              The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them.
              Members’ subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and friends, and to give up personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group.
              Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group.
              Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

              • satchit says:

                There was an interesting statement in this German Sannyas doc, that they miss young people living with them in Parimal.

                Someone said that the reason is that young people are more interested in a living Guru.

                Old people’s home.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Satchit, yes, it was an interesting ducu. Most of the sannyasins came across as interesting and intelligent people. I might be classified as ‘old’ but I’m afraid I could not stand hanging out with a bunck of oldies, getting choked up as they sing along to Osho’s greatest hits. It would hurt my teeth.

                • satchit says:

                  Yes Lokesh, singing functions better with a living Guru.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqEe6lo1z-I

                  MOD:
                  Is this the recent tv programme Lokesh mentioned the other day, Satchit?

                  SATCHIT:
                  Yes Mod, it was 3 days ago on tv.

                • Lokesh says:

                  What I found, while watching the NDR docu, was the progression of what Sannyas became once it arrived in Oregon. Osho behind the wheel of a Rolls during the drive-by, sannyasins doing the pogo to wishy-washy songs, Sheela strutting around like an orange peacock, serious-faced sannyasin security personnel toting automatic weapons, all added up to bullshit.

                  Viewed in retrospect this is especially so, taking into consideration confirmed reports of Osho using the drive-bys to check out women for middle of the night tantra sessions to have their chakras realigned, Sheela being behind a lot of crazy crimes, including mass poisonings etc.

                  The Ranch was doomed to failure from the get-go, and it was a waste of the commune’s financial resources and physical energy. It must be remembered it was Osho who placed Sheela in a position of power that would ruin the whole scene. There were dozens of places in the world that would have been better to set up a commune, but idiot Sheela chose Oregon…the rest is history.

                  Some friends have told me they loved the Ranch, others could not escape quickly enough.

                  Of course, Osho somehow managed to get back on the trackless track, but not before his health was ruined, for one reason or another.

                  It is all water under the bridge and I would not have mentioned any of this were it not for viewing an interesting docu.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  I watched some of the docu, despite it being in German which I only understand a little, and found quite a few positive things in it. The old footage of meditation, the parts about Parimal, the interviews.

                  It depends with what kind of eye you look at it. If you look for a cult with crazy happenings you can emphasize those parts. I choose not to; if you want to you can see a lot that was good in the sannyasin movement.

                • satchit says:

                  If you ask me, I would say Osho was aware from the beginning that the Oregon-project would fail.

                  Why? Because it was a house building on the bridge.

                  Everything you try to create in this world will fail sooner or later.

                  Maybe he even put Sheela in this position so that it could happen sooner. Why wait so long because it would fail anyway?

                  The message was always the eternal of the here and now and never of a spiritual dream in the world.

                • satyadeva says:

                  “Maybe he even put Sheela in this position so that it could happen sooner. Why wait so long because it would fail anyway?”

                  The version of Osho that suggests he knew everything. Which with only a little thought collapses when one takes into account that the failure in Oregon with all its crimes and scandals seriously undermined Osho’s work – not least by leading to his premature death.

                • Klaus says:

                  Satchit
                  15 May, 9.50h

                  Good one! Impermanence counts everywhere.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Satchit spouting his usual spiritual cliches. This time based on pure speculation and make-believe. I do not think anything that happened on that level was forseen by Osho. When the time arrived to get out of the house when it was on fire he jumped out the window.

                • satchit says:

                  @SD

                  In my opinion, Osho’s work was help for growth and not to create an everlasting commune.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Well, of course, Satchit. But to suggest he might have appointed Sheela knowing she’d create an unholy mess which would end up seriously harming his movement’s reputation, himself and his potential influence defies common sense.

                  Osho as an investor in failure and suffering? In your dreams, swami!

                • satchit says:

                  Lokesh, you only see the surface.
                  You are a failure in understanding.

                • satchit says:

                  SD, can we agree on this point that Osho is surendered to Existence, that he is no more?

                  So what is then Existence?
                  Is it always nice and loving?

                  No, it is also war and destruction.

                • satyadeva says:

                  So are you suggesting that in appointing or even, in your terms, ‘allowing’ Sheela to be in charge, Osho was aware that “war and destruction” would follow, including attacks on his own body that would significantly shorten his life and hence reduce the impact of his life’s work, while also bringing him and his movement into disrepute? And that all this was the ‘will of Existence’ to which he had no choice except to surrender?

                  Have you considered that, due to his lack of first-hand experience of America and its likely response, as well as his trust in her, he simply made a mistake (which, by the way, is also part of Existence – unless you want to choose only those aspects that fit your explanation)?

                • satchit says:

                  SD, no, I don’t suggest that he knew what Sheela would do.

                  We also don’t know what he talked about to her.

                  It is all a field of speculation and belief.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Anything to say re this question, Satchit?

                  Have you considered that, due to his lack of first-hand experience of America and its likely response, as well as his trust in her, he simply made a mistake (which, by the way, is also part of Existence – unless you want to choose only those aspects that fit your explanation)?

                • satchit says:

                  Re “mistake”

                  Mistakes happen if there is a goal.

                  If there is no goal, if it is a play, then there is no mistake.

                • satyadeva says:

                  In that case, Satchit, if it’s just “a play”, so nothing matters and therefore “no mistake’ is even conceivable, why do you think Osho publically criticised both Sheela and the US authorities so heavily?

                  Do you honestly think that he was ‘beyond’ feeling angry, betrayed, sad, even disappointed (see his reaction to the absence of trees at the Ranch when he first arrived there)? Sure, his enlightened brain would avoid being identified with such negativity but I’d be very surprised if he didn’t have preferences as to outcomes, as well as to the local landscape.

                  There was indeed “a goal”, to establish a self-sufficient spiritual commune where people could immerse themselves, grow in love and consciousness, and which had the potential to inspire humanity. Which Osho had announced and had wanted to pursue for quite a while as the place where his work would flower, for a large number of people, preferably away from the hassles of the outside woirld.

                  The problem in your reading of the situation is that you’re ok with giving Osho credit for inspiring the Ranch commune’s two or three years of success, in the face of huge outside pressure, exacerbated by his choice of top person, but you don’t want to assign any responsibility to him for its eventual failure (to which the same person contributed much). Great when he ‘won’ (what an omnisciently inspirational master!) and intrinsically blameless when he ‘lost’ (nothing matters, for him it was only “play”!).

                  However, he did say, on his return to India from America I think, something like, “Nothing matters except my silence.” Which doesn’t mean he was incapable of making a mistake, but that his enlightened mastery was still intact, thus his capacity to inspire and help his people.

                • Klaus says:

                  Satchit

                  “There are only two things:

                  Mystics and mistakes.”

                  Quote: Sadhguru

                  I guess he fully trusted his chosen experts. And went with it.
                  Imo, it certainly did affect his longevity.

              • Nityaprem says:

                @Lokesh

                Some of those points certainly apply (“charismatic leader”, “mind numbing meditations”) and some of them do not (“polarised us-vs-them mentality”: most of the time not, “leadership inducing guilt feelings” I have never come across, “members encouraged to socialise only with other group members”).

                I think it’s also a question what originates from sannyasins in leadership roles, and what comes from Osho. I would say, disregard what the leadership contributes. Sannyas for me was something that was given by Osho, and whatever the commune chooses to do is kind of separate from that. They have very little authority, and a rather poor track record from all reports.

                One thing to realise is that you are responsible for your own financial state. The commune would love to absorb all your money, but it would be unwise to let them do this. The reality of the world we live in is such that it is very much safer to keep your own cash. This is the key turning point for the commune’s control of people’s lives and avoiding undue pressure. In the end we are seekers on our own path, and the commune is no more than a spiritual resort.

                • Lokesh says:

                  What? You do not think a “polarised us-vs-them mentality” existed on the Ranch. You must be joking.

                  You can add not believing you are part of a cult when in a cult to the list.

                  Really, I do not take any of this stuff seriously. It is all so old hat. Suggested reading, Joel Kramer’s ‘The Guru Papers’. You can download a PDF for free. It is a worthwhile read.

                  I’m finished with the guru trip.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  @Lokesh

                  There was a small problem with the mods editing my post, I wrote “polarised us-vs-them mentality” most of the time not. Yes, on the Ranch there were periods when that happened, but many other times the focus was elsewhere.

                  Thanks for the suggested reading, I found a pdf which I will read. Seems a good source. Might take a little while though.

                  But even so, I think a lot of the cultish aspects of the commune came from sannyasins put in a position of responsibility, and not from Osho. I don’t mean to say Osho could do no wrong, sometimes he made mistakes. But it’s an important distinction.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  @Lokesh

                  I read the first 100 pages or so of Joel Kramer’s rather waffly effort ‘The Guru Papers’ but didn’t find it compelling. The authors were building all kinds of anti-guru arguments out of thought processes which I was supposed to have had, but in fact they were totally foreign to me. It reads like an anti-guru polemic, an attempt at brainwashing itself.

                  Ultimately, control is futile anyway. If a guru asks you to surrender to him, you answer, “I surrender until such time that it no longer suits me.” Which is as much surrender as anyone can promise — in reality there is no such thing.

                  Osho never asked for my surrender, and he was never authoritarian to me. I don’t really view him as a guru, more as a spiritual friend.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Yes, NP, it’s all good. Whatever floats your wee boat.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  ‘The Guru Papers’ does make clear certain inherent problems with communes with a single spiritual leader, I’ll give you that. I’m reading a bit deeper into it and it’s not entirely without merit.

                • Lokesh says:

                  NP, maybe you were a bit quick off the mark condemning ‘The Guru Papers’. It has been out for a long time, but I believe it is quite an important book. Did you come across the part where they described one guru, Osho of course, becoming allergic to his disciples? It is a funny way to put it but in a way it is true.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Lokesh, the authors do say they have strong anti-guru opinions. It’s a biased book. I’ve read the first half, which is the whole bit about gurus, and while there are some things which do apply to Osho, the majority of points they raise about gurus and cults do not apply.

                  That said, it’s a pretty good book to read for if you ever get caught up with a dodgy fake-guru cult you will be able to spot the signs.

                  The thing is, I’m not blind to Osho’s faults. But I am also aware of his merits. I think he was better than most in that position.

                • Lokesh says:

                  NP, of course, it’s a biased book. Anything interpreted by the mind is bound to be biased.
                  Osho was often biased in his criticisms of other spiritual teachers, politicians and revered personages.

                • satchit says:

                  SD, seems you project a bit of stuff on me.

                  Certainly one can be angry without being identified. Every actor can do it and it is a play for him.

                  ABC of Sannyas is that it is a play, have you forgotten?

                  Even if one plays it serious, it is still a play.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Ok, Satchit, it’s a play. Which is all very well for a guy like Osho but beyond the capacities of most of us, when things get, shall we say, rather more ‘serious’ (if I may use this word with such an implacably non-serious person as yourself), eg in times of crisis: death, injury, betrayal, serious loss, etc. etc.

                  I ask again: Was Osho capable of making a mistake? If so, can you provide an example, please?

        • Nityaprem says:

          Madhu, I look at the photos of Ramana and I feel a warm presence. As far as I know he was more about self-enquiry and silence than about the path of love, but there is still a lot we can learn from that. I’m currently reading the book of his sayings, ‘Be As You Are’, edited by David Godman, which seems to be a pretty approachable text.

          The quote was more said with laying down burdens in mind…the news and television shows bring the war in Ukraine so close, it’s like we are in some way expected to do something, contribute to keeping the peace. But Ramana says, lay your burden down and give it to God. In sannyasin terms, let the universe take care — do what you feel you must, and then drop it.

          I would love to have so much mindfulness that the fight, flight or freeze reflex no longer kicks in, but the most I seem to be able to do is delay it…I just go, “Ah right, is that so? Let me look.” And then I go and ponder and usually by the time I have come to a decision the emergency is over.

          • Nityaprem, I need to share my gratitude that you came up here as a former “sannyas-kid”, contributing the very thread, we are still into in ‘Sannyasnews’.

            Finally! Feeling someone is coming up here in this caravanserai for a “peace-train- exchange” and not for an expert-competition or in a kind of (hidden or open) revengeful mood amongst the meanwhile sannyas-generations.

            Ramana Maharshi you mentioned yesterday, has been/is one if these rather rare universal “citizens” – not unlike Osho was/is.

            We are on our way.
            In turbulent times one can say. And mostly not being able to lay our burden down “just like this”.

            I ve been in tears reading one or the other of your contributions and I cannot say if these were tears of sorrow or sadness. Or coming from some other source.

            I really cannot say.

            Was reminded of the poem by Bertolt Brecht which struck my heart when I was still at school here in Germany and I love to share that with you today:

            Truly, I live in dark times!
            An artless word is foolish. A smooth forehead
            Points to insensitivity. He who laughs
            Has not yet received
            The terrible news.

            What times are these, in which
            A conversation about trees is almost a crime
            For in doing so we maintain our silence about so much wrongdoing!
            And he who walks quietly across the street,
            Passes out of the reach of his friends
            Who are in danger?

            It is true: I work for a living
            But, believe me, that is a coincidence. Nothing
            That I do gives me the right to eat my fill.
            By chance I have been spared. (If my luck does not hold,
            I am lost.)

            They tell me: eat and drink. Be glad to be among the haves!
            But how can I eat and drink
            When I take what I eat from the starving
            And those who thirst do not have my glass of water?
            And yet I eat and drink.

            I would happily be wise.
            The old books teach us what wisdom is:
            To retreat from the strife of the world
            To live out the brief time that is your lot
            Without fear
            To make your way without violence
            To repay evil with good —
            The wise do not seek to satisfy their desires,
            But to forget them.
            But I cannot heed this:
            Truly I live in dark times!

            II

            I came into the cities in a time of disorder
            As hunger reigned.
            I came among men in a time of turmoil
            And I rose up with them.
            And so passed
            The time given to me on earth.

            I ate my food between slaughters.
            I laid down to sleep among murderers.
            I tended to love with abandon.
            I looked upon nature with impatience.
            And so passed
            The time given to me on earth.

            In my time streets led into a swamp.
            My language betrayed me to the slaughterer.
            There was little I could do. But without me
            The rulers sat more securely, or so I hoped.
            And so passed
            The time given to me on earth.

            The powers were so limited. The goal
            Lay far in the distance
            It could clearly be seen although even I
            Could hardly hope to reach it.
            And so passed
            The time given to me on earth.

            III

            You, who shall resurface following the flood
            In which we have perished,
            Contemplate —
            When you speak of our weaknesses,
            Also the dark time
            That you have escaped.

            For we went forth, changing our country more frequently than our shoes
            Through the class warfare, despairing
            That there was only injustice and no outrage.

            And yet we knew:
            Even the hatred of squalor
            Distorts one’s features.
            Even anger against injustice
            Makes the voice grow hoarse. We
            Who wished to lay the foundation for gentleness
            Could not ourselves be gentle.

            But you, when at last the time comes
            That man can aid his fellow man,
            Should think upon us
            With leniency.”

            (Bertolt Brecht, ‘An Die Nachgeborenen’, first published in Svendborger Gedichte (1939) in: Gesammelte Werke, vol. 4, pp. 722-25 (1967)(S.H. transl.))

            • Nityaprem says:

              Madhu, that’s an excellent poem. It really speaks to what the Buddha also said about anger and hate, that indulging in these emotions is like “holding a hot coal and expecting the other person to be burnt.”

              There is a mindfulness trick that I learned from the teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh, that whenever you experience an emotion like that, you pause and just focus your attention on it mindfully, and you will find that within 30 seconds the emotion disappears. Funny, eh?

              Wisdom is a tricky thing, you can’t accumulate it by just reading the words of the wise. At the most we can use their words to underline something we had already seen for ourselves. Then a quote can definitely come in handy!

            • Nityaprem says:

              The “peace train”, yeah, I like that very much. It is about filling the mind with what is really worthwhile knowing, doing the things that make life richer and healthier and more wholesome.

              I find that competition, being seen as expert (so often just a sham), grudges and ill-feeling aren’t really behaviours worth being shared. So often it’s just feeding the ego, it’s better to focus the attention on other things.

              During my reading in buddhism I came across a small meditation of Atisha, which basically stated that since everything was left behind at death, one would be best off working on those things that one could take with one, and those are the fruits of the spiritual search. It made a great impression on me.

            • Klaus says:

              Poem to Poem

              There is one more lovely poem by another German author which I find a valuable quote:
              Hermann Hesse: ‘Stufen’ (‘Steps’)
              A German poem with English translation following below.

              Wie jede Blüte welkt und jede Jugend
              Dem Alter weicht, blüht jede Lebensstufe,
              Blüht jede Weisheit auch und jede Tugend
              Zu ihrer Zeit und darf nicht ewig dauern.
              Es muß das Herz bei jedem Lebensrufe
              Bereit zum Abschied sein und Neubeginne,
              Um sich in Tapferkeit und ohne Trauern
              In andre, neue Bindungen zu geben.
              Und jedem Anfang wohnt ein Zauber inne,
              Der uns beschützt und der uns hilft, zu leben.

              Wir sollen heiter Raum um Raum durchschreiten
              An keinem wie an einer Heimat hängen,
              Der Weltgeist will nicht fesseln uns und engen,
              Er will uns Stuf’ um Stufe heben, weiten.
              Kaum sind wir heimisch einem Lebenskreise
              Und traulich eingewohnt, so droht Erschlaffen,
              Nur wer bereit zu Aufbruch ist und Reise,
              Mag lähmender Gewöhnung sich entraffen.

              Es wird vielleicht auch noch die Todesstunde
              Uns neuen Räumen jung entgegen senden
              Des Lebens Ruf an uns wird niemals enden…
              Wohlan denn, Herz, nimm Abschied und gesunde!

              As every blossom fades
              and all youth sinks into old age,
              so every life’s design, each flower of wisdom,
              attains its prime and cannot last forever.
              The heart must submit itself courageously
              to life’s call without a hint of grief,
              A magic dwells in each beginning,
              protecting us, telling us how to live.

              High purposed we shall traverse realm on realm,
              cleaving to none as to a home,
              the world of spirit wishes not to fetter us
              but raise us higher, step by step.
              Scarce in some safe accustomed sphere of life
              have we establish a house, then we grow lax;
              only he who is ready to journey forth
              can throw old habits off.

              Maybe death’s hour too will send us out new-born
              towards undreamed-lands,
              maybe life’s call to us will never find an end
              Courage my heart, take leave and fare thee well.

              It touches me every time I take enough time to read it slowly – and see memories and their accompanying sadness floating by.

              I ask myself:
              “Did I take leave? Do I fare well?”

          • satchit says:

            SD, your question will not become better if you repeat it.

            “Was Osho capable of making a mistake?”

            The truth is Osho was enlightened so He was no more, only Existence was.

            So the real question must be:

            Is Existence capable of making a mistake?

            Now it depends on the goal.

            If you want that this planet survives, you can say creating the human race was a mistake.

            Enough for today.

            • Klaus says:

              Having been reborn was an unavoidable mistake.

              Now why would I have such a reactive thought?

              ???&%§$%$§”%§$”%

              • Klaus says:

                By the way:

                Did you know that
                “Bob Dylan was born Robert Allen Zimmerman. His paternal grandparents fled the Ukraine in 1905 because of anti-Semitic persecution. His maternal grandparents were Lithuanian Jews.”

                And that he wrote this wonderful song, too?
                “With God on Our Side”
                https://genius.com/2462755

              • You wrote yersterday, Klaus:
                “Now why would I have such a reactive thought?”
                I could offer:
                “Because you didn’t delete it before it even was printed in an open available Chat to be seen by others (NOT IT-trolls, btw!) – who would like to relate to and understand what you have to share re an issue.

                No mistake!

                Madhu

                • And a PS for Klaus:

                  I was reminded of the meetings we had here with Byron Katie Herself, when she was still able to attend such in Person.

                  a work it was and still is to find out where most of – it – if not pretty much all of our thoughts – come from and discover some of the sources of our up-growing, which have not been ‘our-own’.

                  An endless work in progress, it seems, and quite difficult in the virtual realms….

                • Klaus says:

                  Yes, Madhu, I follow what you are saying.

                  In the virtual realm we can just express in writing our feelings, emotions, views, opinions and information we have gathered and questions we might have.

                  Or maybe it is the other way round that we start with the questions, then information then opinions, views, emotions, feelings….

                  The presence of more experienced persons closer to “their inner source” is of great help. Friends on the path.

                  There may still be (a lot of) friction. Which Satchit may (rightly so) say “is beneficial for the search” – fire up.

                  One keeps on keeping on. Don’t we?

                • Klaus says:

                  When we were a bit confrontational on one of the threads here dear Arpana once hinted at this song
                  ‘Cruel to be kind (in the right measure)’ – Nick Lowe
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Vo4lNb0w48

                  (Lyrics are in the comments…).

            • satyadeva says:

              “So the real question must be:

              Is Existence capable of making a mistake?

              Now it depends on the goal.”

              Ok, Satchit, so did Existence, through Osho, ever make a mistake? If so, please provide the relevant details rather than waffling about a philosophical irrelevance before signing off for the day without facing the point.

              I reckon you’ve too much of a tendency towards a ‘spiritual romanticism’ that wants to believe in an impossible ‘perfection’, imagining any vestige of simple ‘personhood’ to disappear at some point after enlightenment.

              In your parents’ generation such a tendency helped give rise to belief in the delusions of ‘The Fuehrer’ and the doctrine of the psycho-spiritual purity of the ‘Master Race’ etc. With easy answers to complex questions of identity and purpose. A collective neurosis that morphed into psychosis.

              Perhaps you’ve somehow unconsciously picked up on traces of that which informs your view of Osho.
              (And please remember, I said “perhaps”, so don’t send the SS after me! Lol).

              • satchit says:

                Now he comes with “The Fuehrer”, funny.

                “Spiritual romanticism” lol
                You need not teach me what’s wrong with me.

                Things are much more simple: I refuse to think your thoughts and you have a problem with it.

                • satyadeva says:

                  On the contrary, Satchit, I’m enjoying looking at potential causes of your apparent neurosis. I’m simply having a bit of fun, it’s only a “play”, after all, no need to be so deadly serious!

                  Main point though remains the question you haven’t yet answered.

                • satchit says:

                  Seems I have to teach you the ABC of play.

                  Seriousness is needed for play.

                  At least as a Gunners supporter you should know.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Ok, then, Herr Playmeister, be serious and just answer the question, please.

                • satchit says:

                  It is a known fact that you have a stubborn character.

                  The play functions like this: you ask because you think you know the answer already, is it not?

                  So there is no point in answering your question for me.

                  I better enjoy my “spiritual romanticism.”

                • satyadeva says:

                  You’re no stranger to stubbornness yourself, Satchit, as this post clearly illustrates. So I’m assuming you do realise Osho made a few mistakes but you won’t say so as you think that would undermine your argument, not to mention your ‘wise spiritual man’ image at this site.

                • satchit says:

                  SD, before you can judge something as ‘a mistake’ you have to know a few things. These things neither you nor I know.

                  Why did they leave Pune?
                  Was it really because of tax problems? Or was it because the place became too crowded?

                  How many options did they have to go somewhere else? Was it only Oregon or were there also other places? Australia?

                  Was it a case of only this or nothing else?

                  Even if there were other options than Oregon I would not call Osho naive to go there. In my opinion he did it intentionally and the strategy was friction.

                  Btw, these days it is very modern looking back and calling behaviour “a mistake’:
                  “Oh, we have been too friendly to the Russians.
                  Look at them now, it was really a mistake!”

                • satyadeva says:

                  “Even if there were other options than Oregon I would not call Osho naive to go there. In my opinion he did it intentionally and the strategy was friction.”

                  Was that strategy effective, or was it responsible for consistently alienating the very people whose support the commune needed?

                  Was Sheela a wise choice to be his chief public representative?

                  Did Osho have any clue how to cope with America?

                • satchit says:

                  If you ask me, I would say the strategy of friction was effective.

                  If they would want support, it would be an easy thing to act differently.

                  The Master would give orders and Sheela and others would follow.
                  To blame it all on Sheela is in my opinion a bit naive.

                  I don’t think that Osho wanted to cope with America.
                  A Master is a fire.

                  Did Jesus want to cope with the Jews?

                • satyadeva says:

                  “The strategy of friction was effective”, was it, Satchit? Are you saying the American ‘campaign’ was a success?

                  You mean the way the Ranch collapsed amidst the crimes and arrogant attitudes of Sheela & co. that poisoned an already tricky public relations situation? And closed the doors of many countries (and the hearts and minds of many people) to Osho? And which led to Osho’s poisoning, considerably shortening his life?

                  Osho on the same track as Jesus? Was he really that much of a “masochist” (which is how he described Jesus)?

                  And all the above the ‘Will of Existence’ as Osho and Existence were one and the same? Leaving no space for ordinary human errors, mistakes, even major misjudgments?

                  Really?

                • Lokesh says:

                  What comes up for me when reading Satchit’s comments is a question…could someone really be that stupid? I have to say the answer is ‘yes’.

                • frank says:

                  @ Lokesh
                  I know what you mean, but like to stay positive and not get downhearted about existence.
                  I still believe that some conversations with parrots can be worthwhile

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6klZx7IhwsI

                • Nityaprem says:

                  @frank who wrote “some of our conversations with parrots may be worthwhile.”

                  Funny man! Reminds me of the saying that a million monkeys with typewriters writing for eternity will eventually produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Parrots! I say, pass the bird seed. Squawk!

                • satchit says:

                  Also a religionless religion needs a good story to be remembered, SD.

                  The story of Sannyas is love & crime in Oregon.

                  The story of Jesus is still known after 2000 years.

                  Right now we have passion games in Oberammergau/Bavaria:

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=353CXJdBWkM

                • frank says:

                  Exclusive pic:
                  Satchit`s darshan and initiation with Swami Bhorat at Bungabungalore ashram.

                  (Transcript):
                  “Talk the talk, walk the walk and squawk the squawk and remember, the ego is like guano: it must be dropped at every opportunity.”

                • satchit says:

                  @ SD

                  Certainly Osho was capable of mistakes.
                  I remember the story of his car accident.

                  Accidents happen only if you make mistakes.

                  Looking back and calling something a mistake is always a bit non-accepting of the past, is it not?

                • satyadeva says:

                  Can you suggest another way of learning from experience, Satchit?!

                • satchit says:

                  Yes, SD, in some cases you can learn from experience.

                  For example, if you get a sunburn, next time you put a hat on your head.

                  In other cases you get only one shot.

                  For example, Oregon

                  And certainly one can speculate: Would Australia have been a better place? Or would another woman have been a better choice than Sheela?

                  “But this is all mind”, speaks my parrot.

                  “Croak.”

                • satyadeva says:

                  Put it this way, Satchit: Elsewhere it would have had to have gone even more monumentally wrong than the demise of the Ranch to make the choices of the USA and ‘redneck’ territory in Oregon, and of Sheela, appear reasonable.

                  And if there had been another chance to set up home away from Pune do you seriously think that these and other key elements of the Ranch experience would not have been taken into account, as in “My God, never again!”?

                  As a wise old woman once pointed out to me, many years ago, “This world is a school, it’s for experiencing and learning.”

                  In fact, learning from experience, positive, negative or all intermediate shades, is where the mind plays a hugely important role (in case you and/or your parrot hadn’t noticed!).

                • Klaus says:

                  Satyadeva

                  I like your expression

                  …”would have had to have gone even more monumentally wrong than….”

                  Imagine, some beautiful atoll in the Indian Ocean or elsewhere was chosen…one would have had to bribe the officials for any kind of permit…in the near future they would extort more of the commune based on this first step…then a tsunami…the atoll cracks…and so forth.

                  “Mistakes come in all shapes and all sizes….”
                  Osho quote for the mere mortals.

                  Maybe twop possible lessons were/are:
                  “make best use of your time” and
                  “speak up when your gut feeling is challenged”.

                  But then again, this might also not make a (big) difference….

                • satyadeva says:

                  The possible problems you mention, Klaus, would have been disqualified – IF adequate research were done before any decision on location were made.

                  I mean, were Osho’s ‘top people’ totally deficient in practical, worldly-wise common sense? If they still were after Oregon they really would have been utter fools.

                • Klaus says:

                  Satyadeva
                  17 May, 2022 at 2:24 pm

                  “The possible problems you mention, Klaus, would have been disqualified – IF adequate research were done before any decision….”

                  Hm, I think there must be the requirement that the people in charge of fact finding – research – decision making do not have vested interests /a hidden agenda – besides “love of the Master” and “making a project of love reality”.

                  This actually leads me to think/believe that in the course of the decision making for “Oregon” there have been vested interests…

                  Was there any corporate control of the financial flows?

                  Interestingly, as per my knowledge there seem to have been no criminal complaints (by the owners; which owners? Investors?) with regard of “dollar amounts possibly missing”.

                  How could the requirement of “non-vested interest” be checked, if the Master chooses the persons in charge?
                  The cat bites its tail….

              • Nityaprem says:

                @satyadeva

                To me it’s pretty clear Osho could and did make mistakes. AIDS, for example, didn’t turn into quite the epidemic he envisaged.

                But he was right far more often than he was wrong, when not predicting the future that is.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Yeah, Osho’s crystal ball was a dud.

                • frank says:

                  My extensive studies in Norse mythology at the University of Abba may help cast some light on this difficult matter.

                  Not a lot of people know that the word ‘mistake’ is etymologically derived from the old Norse word `mistaka` which is very close to `pistaka` – meaning to take the piss or pisstake. The pisstakers in the ancient sagas were those Norsemen who drunk reindeer piss that was loaded with psychedelic chemicals from the Fly Agaric mushroom. They communicated with the spirits whilst on their trips and so discovered that it was the mischievous gods and spirits who were responsible for the mistakes of humans, which the gods set up as practical jokes so as to enjoy their creation more by having more entertaining stories to watch over.

                  At first, the gods only wanted to have those that they didn`t like making mistakes, but they soon discovered that the universe didn`t work like that, so in order for pisstaking and its benefits to be enjoyed by humanity, everyone had to make mistakes and have the piss taken out of them, even the good guys.

                • Klaus says:

                  Frank

                  That seems to come very close to the functionings of….

                  The neutral ones also got caught up: they could not stay on the sidelines. Haha!

    • Lokesh says:

      You can always count on Madhu for a weather report.

      • Cloudy here today, Lokesh, and cool.
        What’s happening at your climate place on Ibiza Island?

        I mean – besides sending some warning re a “DUD” – along the virtual realms?

        Is your swimming team already happening? Is the water in the ocean warm enough?

        • Lokesh says:

          Dear Madhu, thanks for the weather update.

          Sea swimming begins next week. I have a few days more of work around the house to do. It is roasting and after a casual morning’s work it is now siesta time. First a dip in the pool. Yipee!

          • Thanks, Lokesh,

            We here had some thunder and lightning around late lunchtime and quite some rain.
            Now – a few hours later – the sky shows up as if nothing ever happened….

            Too bad that having a good swim and diving deep is out of the question due to my health situation.
            What a nice pic you sent!

            Madhu

            • satyadeva says:

              What is your health situation, Madhu?

              • Let’s put it like this, Satyadeva (and thank you for asking):

                Never really recovered in the body from an accident in the streets here; since (January 2013) metal screws and the long metal nail still in one of my legs; then years later thrombotic happenings, then embolie of the lungs, and on top of that more recently, corona happening and its after-effects.

                Busy all these years is me, I can say walking step by step – or imagining walking – on the
                “Acceptance Boulevard” in a social field which is less than friendly or supportive.

                AND YET I WALK. Sometimes like today.

                The latter though is a good preparation:
                “Bardo of Life, Bardo of Death”, finally, as some of the Tibetans say.

                Just Here-now I m listening to the rain in the evening – and besides anwering your question put out in our small Sannyas-Chat-community – I m listening to classical music.

                Which I enjoy… and even more so – the gentle sound of the rain.

                Madhu

                • Lokesh says:

                  Touching post, Madhu.

                  My wife was in a terrible car accident six years ago. Still has a metal rod in her leg and screws, along wirh six screws and hinges in the neck. She hates cold weather when the metal gets cold.

                  At times life can be a wicked joke, but if we can we must keep right on till the end of the road, meanwhile keeping up our urge to keep on keeping on.

              • Nityaprem says:

                I’ve noticed that everyone over 70 has their share of health problems. You are lucky if you can still walk vigorously and work in the garden. Am considering not participating in this process of getting old, seems more trouble than it’s worth!

                • satyadeva says:

                  These ailments very often show up well before 70, NP. Try asking anyone over 60, or even a few years younger.

                  What exactly do you mean by “not participating”, by the way?

                • Lokesh says:

                  NP says, “Am considering not participating in this process of getting old, seems more trouble than it’s worth!”

                  With an attitude like that it is hardly surprising that you are considering not participating in this process of getting old. Even though you have little choice in the matter.

                  On the upside ageing does have its perks. All that spiritual ideology about ‘no mind’ seems to happen quite naturally. As does realizing it is all within yourself etc., if so inclined.

                  At 70 I have no desire for the days of my youth. It was fun but really it is a simple case of been there, done that. The story of your life unfolds and the last chapters are still interesting and worth living.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  @Lokesh

                  Yes, it’s true, it is unavoidable, I was only making a little joke, hoho. I have not discovered the elixir of eternal youth.

                  Some people in my experience do a lot to stay fit in their later years, walking 20 km a day for instance.

                  But is it not better to just let life unfold, rather than trying all these things to prolong it?

                • satyadeva says:

                  But besides possibly prolonging one’s life any health-giving practices enhance the quality of the later years. That’s my experience, as without making certain efforts I dread to think where I might be at now.

                • Lokesh says:

                  It is not so much a case of prolonging life, but rather a case of quality over quantity.

                  The body is like a car. You need to be a good driver and use the vehicle. Cars seize up through lack of use. If you don’t use it then the scrapyard is the next destination.

                  Of people I know of the ones who keep fit seem to enjoy life more, with less trips to the doctor.

                  One old lady I know swims all year round. She is 86 and as fit as a fiddle.

                  Lifestyle is the key. Genetics plays only about twenty per cent of how healthy you will keep. Keep on truckin’.

                • frank says:

                  Body and mind, too.

                  Use it or Lose it
                  (by A. Buddha)

                  Meditators try to refuse it,
                  Spiritual types tend to accuse it,
                  Intellectuals they overuse it,
                  Common people try to amuse it,
                  Charlatans try to confuse it,
                  Enlightened ones try to defuse it.
                  But whichever way you views it,
                  As long as you can still choose it:
                  It`s gotta be use it or lose it!

  11. Nityaprem says:

    @simond who wrote: “In other words the question [of meaning] becomes yet another one: Who am I? And so, even more questions follow on: Why do I act in this or that way? What disturbs or hurts me? What other forms of self-identity have I taken on? How authentic am I?”

    Good questions. ‘Who Am I? deserves a special mention, as according to Ramana it is a question that is meant to dissolve the questioner, and is a pointer into a more intense field of self enquiry. But in effect all these questions are to do with self-enquiry, getting to know oneself a bit better. But as Gurdjieff says, it’s not just seeing but remembering, and the constant process of self-remembering is quite difficult.

    Self-identity I feel is largely useless. You can identify as a Buddhist, say, but as you do this you are writing your name under a series of doctrines which you may not all know. For a tradition with a large body of teachings this is difficult; can you be honest with yourself that you actually know what you are signing up for? Is it not better to just say “I am what I am” without saying “I am this” or “I am that”?

    The last thing I would single out in the field of self-enquiry is sincerity. Without sincerity it is hard to make significant headway in a spiritual field, because one has to be honest in order to see clearly and sincere in order to have effect with one’s decisions.

  12. Klaus says:

    @Nityaprem

    You seem to like doing research about the spiritual search and connected things…I have a hint to another homepage:

    “From Meher Baba to Osho with love”
    https://o-meditation.com/category/enlightenment/

    One can spend quite some enjoyable time there….

    Check with Cheers!

    • Klaus says:

      …that is if you have not found it already! Haha.

    • Nityaprem says:

      @Klaus

      That is much appreciated, thank you for the thought, Namasté???? I vaguely remember seeing the site one time in passing when I was looking for an Osho quote but I had no idea it was so extensive! There is a lot of material there on many masters.

      But I try not to hop too much from one teacher to the next, at the moment I am reading Ramana, but I will add Meher Baba to the to-be-looked at pile. I always felt attracted to him, but there is such a thing as having too many teachers. I think I will come back to the site.

      Whenever I read a book from, for example, Ramana, it’s like I am looking for something, some understanding that will make it clear to me what enlightenment is and how to get there…It seems quite a few people think they have something to say there, but very few really know what they are talking about.

      • Klaus says:

        Hi NP,

        There is a Ramana chapter, too….

        • Nityaprem says:

          Yeah, I saw. Ramana didn’t leave as much behind as Osho, he was before the time that discourses were routinely recorded. The book I am reading, ‘Be As You Are’, was put together from scraps of paper on which disciples wrote down what was said to various people.

          It’s funny. Yesterday I was reading in the Ramana book and I come across a passage where I see him say, you are already enlightened, there are only the vasanas obstructing you realising it. Then I was listening to Osho late in the evening, and he said pretty much the same thing (in ‘Om Mani Padme Hum’, discourse no.17).

          • Klaus says:

            Yeah, kilesas – vasanas – the veils of ignorence over eyes, ears and heart…

            Inner workings.

            • satyadeva says:

              So can we get down to being specific re exactly what these “veils of ignorance” consist of? Why don’t we see, hear or feel ‘straight’? What’s inside us that prevents total clarity?

              In a nutshell, that describes the job of a master. Didn’t Osho do his utmost to help us address these blocks?

              • Klaus says:

                Hi Satyadeva,

                All the ‘things’ we have stored in our systems – the bodymind computer – emotions unexpressed, situations we could not stand pushed into the unconscious, attitudes, views, opinions that rather obstruct clear seeing…

                I cannot put it in a nutshell, as there are so many approaches to healing, too.

                There is a lovely article on oshonews describing a process of the healer – healing – perception of body and mind:
                https://www.oshonews.com/2018/04/15/my-journey-through-touch-anugyan/

                Passages we have to pass through. Be it in meditation – touch – therapy. The unveiling – transformation – dissolution – taking place.

                My guess with regard to the Master is that he can show us a few – if not all – things.
                And then we carry on on our own. Wherever we are in the process.
                I take Osho as the modern modern-style Master: using traditions and methods. But in essence being – he himself fully – free of them at the same time.

                The dealings of this world is one side of the journey – mundane.
                The inner world is a different one – going beyond the mundane.

                • Klaus says:

                  I would add this to my last comment:

                  A quick search found this one on the journey starting and then passaging through the ’70000 veils’ from the Sufi view:

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CeQfyhmwqw

                  I don’t know the author, but it seems to be catching the essentials.

                • Please, Klaus, are you in a rating committee?
                  Modern style?

                  For me – the inner and the so-called outer world have been and are inter-woven and inter-dependent from the very first breath we take in the body – and maybe even before and after.

                  Madhu

                • Nityaprem says:

                  @Klaus

                  It’s funny you should talk about the things we “push into the subconscious”, I have been thinking about this as well. I was wondering if these things end up being like karmic imprints.

                  And thanks for Anugyan’s article, I enjoyed it!

                • Klaus says:

                  @Nityaprem

                  Everything that is stored in the system is a (karmic) imprint-kilesa-vasana-veil-blockage – as we name it.

                  In developing more and more awareness/consciousness we see our composites in detail.

                  Osho’s book, ‘Hammer on the Rock’ comes to mind.
                  (German title: ‘Stoppt den Fluss des Unbewussten’ – ‘Stop the flow of the Unconscious Mind’).

                • frank says:

                  @Klaus

                  Is it really possible or desirable to stop the flow of the unconscious mind?
                  That is putting the `conscious` mind in a very preferential position.
                  What or who is this `conscious` mind that is so divorced from the unconscious mind that it would have the power to stop it?

                  Reminds me of King Canute.

                • Klaus says:

                  @Frank

                  Uuuhhhh, I would be very wary of trying to stop something that can be so much bigger than a small person…

                  But then again, that was how the title ‘Hammer on the Rock’ has been translated into the German version of the book.

                • frank says:

                  @Klaus
                  It`s an odd translation.
                  I imagine ‘Hammer on the Rock’ as being a riff on Freddie Neitzsche`s ‘Philosophising with a Hammer’ ie breaking up preconceptions/fixed ideas etc.

                  Maybe the German translators didn`t want to give the `Osho is a Freddie, thereby Hitler fan` media thing any juice at the time.

                • Klaus says:

                  Frank

                  Applying ‘Thor’s Hammer’ to people’s heads…that’s what the German leaders did….

                • frank says:

                  Klaus.
                  Ouch!

                  Also available on Amazon: ‘Hammer in my Rocks’, a banging autobiography by Swami Mahabanananda, legendary tantric disciple of Swami Bhorat. He is currently doing a 10-year retreat on VP Wing.

                • Klaus says:

                  Frank

                  Checked amazon and found this:
                  https://www.amazon.de/Sprengt-Fels-Unbewu%C3%9Ftheit-Hammer-Rock/dp/359623378X

                  So the German title is
                  ‘Sprengt (Blow up) den Fluss der Unbewusstheit (the flow of the unconscious)’

                  Swami Bananananananananda is funny, too :::)))

                • satchit says:

                  ‘Hammer on the Rock’ is a darshan diary.

                  People did speak in front of ‘Bhagwan’ in those times about their problems and resistance.

                  And the “Hammer” was the awareness of the Master.

                • Klaus says:

                  Satchit

                  True….

              • Yes, I second that, Satyadeva – and thank you for coming in here just in time today, raising a moderate voice.

                Last night I was looking again in some of the ‘Darshan Diaries’ (November 1976) which like most of them are recorded – and printed by chance! (Title: ‘The Shadow of the Whip’).

                The way though that even before Osho’s departure to America such exchanges had simply not been possible anymore as the Sangha had been exploding one can say – AND take that for bashing all those who had been coming “late” is a thorough ‘cul de sac’ (‘sackasse’, we say here) and brings more of this hostility and judgmental heat and kind of war-like scenarios which, as I understand you say: brings nothing of value. Neither individually nor collectively….

                Thanks again for coming up, Satyadeva.

                Madhu

              • Klaus says:

                Madhu

                Traditional-style masters, imo their limitations.
                Bhagwan to me is rather limitless.
                So, modern is to me 12 stars out of 10.

                I have my limitations, too. Therefore words can be mingled.

              • Nityaprem says:

                @satyadeva who wrote “what exactly are these “veils of ignorance?””

                In the book of Ramana’s conversations which I am reading he says the first barrier is identification with the body, that before one can get results with self-enquiry that needs to be tackled.

      • satchit says:

        @NP

        “clear to me what enlightenment is”

        E. is dying to your identity, where the door to the madhouse is wide open.

        • frank says:

          Sounds like Satchit has been giving E to his parrot again:

          “Squawk! ‘Eezer Goode ‘Eezer Goode He’s Ebeneezer Goode. Squawk!”

          • satchit says:

            Ever heard that funniness can also become a habit, Frankie-parrot?

            Btw, it was not Nietzsche style. It was the Master himself who said in this diary to a group leader:
            “I have to be hard to you. I will be with you like a hammer on the rock. Hm? Good.”

            • frank says:

              @Scratchit
              Thanks for the tip.
              I will check into rehab if things get too comical.

              Meanwhile, to complete Madhu`s weather forecasts, here is ‘The Laughter Forecast’ by Sue Cowley

              Today will be humorous
              With some giggly patches,
              Scattered outbreaks of chuckling in the south
              And smiles spreading from the east later,
              Widespread chortling
              Increasing to gale-force guffaws towards evening.
              The outlook for tomorrow
              Is hysterical.

              And don`t worry, parrots are very spiritual.

              In South India I have seen parrot readers. Often in public, like at a bus stand. The customer asks a question, the sadhu spreads out the cards which have pictures of different gods on them. Then the sadhu`s pet parrot is let out of its cage and it goes along the cards and picks one out with its beak. This is the relevant card that depicts the god that the customer needs help from or to pray to.

              Just checked and of course it`s on Youtube:
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skgZE4Q8K-A

              • Klaus says:

                If I had not seen the video I would not have believed it.

                These Indians are over-spiritual, indeed.

                But it leaves much space in the head.

                • Klaus says:

                  Hahaha:

                  Sue Cowley – “Getting the buggers to behave”

                  “…manage behaviour through developing better relationships…better thinking skills….”

                  That’s the way to do it!

                • frank says:

                  I didn`t know she was a parenting adviser, I just came across the poem.
                  Have you followed her?

                  I have seen something similar in the streets in Delhi (not on Youtube) where a sadhu got people to ask simple questions to a bull (that I suppose was a representation of Nandi/Shiva).
                  The bull would answer by either nodding or shaking its head, It was a good circus trick but folks took it seriously and maybe it sorted their lives out. Got them to make a decision one way or the other, I guess.

        • Nityaprem says:

          @satchit

          Every teacher seems to have his own favourite phrasing. I like Ramana’s self-realisation. Or Adyashanti’s shift in perspective.

          But if the door to the madhouse is wide open, do you choose to walk in, or out? The mad people are quite interesting after all…

          • satchit says:

            @ NP

            It is not a question of phrasing, but of being or better to say not-being.

            A lot of preparation is needed, it can be dangerous.

            Why are you interested in that?
            Don’t you lead a good life?

            I choose to be unenlightened.

            • frank says:

              “I choose to be unenlightened.”
              Careful, Satchit, you are sliding into the funniness habit!

            • Nityaprem says:

              @satchit who wrote “why are you interested in that?”

              Who wouldn’t be interested in deeply knowing their own nature and the truth about their reality?

              • Nityaprem, you responded:
                “Who wouldn’t be interested in deeply knowing their own nature and the truth about their reality?”

                Well, I’d say – when opening the site of the Chat just now and reading what came up just very recently bragging about a story, a kind of sensational ‘METOO’ report about the case of a woman who doesn’t post here (!) but has done so apparently quite Murdoch press-print business-style.

                And then – see our Scottish regular contributor – as if yawning who must have had a nap or two for some hours:
                “Aah old stuff, old stuff, know it all but won’t go into it just now etc…I know the involved people but won t go into details etc. etc.”

                Sure enough, other male buddhies followed, apparently relieved to have found another unknown and a female prey to escape their very own stuff re such matters (reality).

                Your question though is a good one, Nityaprem (as was – in my eyes – your honest intro/topic).

                And it may be one not fit to be responded to on a website and in a Chat-room like this?

                Madhu

                • P.S:
                  That which is called “victim blaming” has taken obnoxious, very perverted forms in Digital Times!

                  And has in my insight nothing to do with your question(s) you put out, Nityaprem.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Madhu, I suggest you stick to writing weather reports. In relation to the article Frank posted, you have not a clue what you are talking about.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Thanks, Madhu. It’s difficult not to get hung up on things. Erin deserves to be heard, and what Osho did was not right…he put people in responsible positions in the ashram, and then makes requests that are not kosher, at night in secret.

                  And this affects the rest of us, because were we not like Erin in that master-disciple relationship?

                  You’re right that this has kind of diverged from my original topic and question, which was about finding the final guru, but at the same time it is kind of relevant because it changes your relationship with the guru.

  13. @satchit said/ wrote:
    16 May, 2022 at 3:32 pm (I to IV)

    I
    “Also a religionless religion needs a good story to be remembered, SD.”

    A religionsless religion does not need a good story to be remembered, Satchit.

    At the most – and only if we can t take that truth – I would agree with Nityaprem who mentioned and promoted a “Shakespearean update” about the daily variations happening in inter-(in-)human affairs. Something to laugh-cry and then get silent and then let it sink in and maybe broaden our consciousness (for the time being…but the latter only by Grace…).

    II
    “The story of Sannyas is love & crime in Oregon.”

    You don t know what love is, I’d say to you, Satchit – and you sum that up by trolling a Chat using a name you probably found as an internet-trolling entity, Indian-style, and you joined a Chat with a kind of military stance and the very cunning and secluded verbal abuse covered up by only seemingly “squeaky-clean” two or three-liners. Over years by now!

    Staying anonymous like a religious secret services agent and a kind of ‘watchman’ gathering data about some of the pain or some of the confusion of others here.

    That’s OFF the WALL, as one says. And I say that too.

    III
    “The story of Jesus is still known after 2000 years.”

    How you, Satchit, come to a stance here, proclaiming that YOU, Satchit, know sanything valuable or essential of the Life of a Being called Jesus (more than 2000 years ago) murdered in the most cruel way conceivable – is a HOAX of a contemporary watchman of Fundamentalist viewpoint, in my eyes (or even worse).

    IV
    “Right now we have passion games in Oberammergau/Bavaria”

    Yes, true, Bavarian Satchit – the Theatre play in Oberammergau IS happening and yesterday was the Premiere.

    And you, Satchit, don t do any favours to the many people of this small Bavarian town or to the Director, Stückl, who has worked on this play for a long time, it’s his second or even third time working on this (ever-changing).

    Bragging here and pumping up your BIG EGO in this very UK/SN-Chat about it is neither a favour for the people involved nor a favour for Mr. Stückl, the Director, whom I know, having listened to some of the interviews given by him and heard an emotionally intelligent man speak re the content of the Play and some of the historical facts and the Gestalt of a man we call Jesus, has much more such emotional Intelligence than you’ve ever shown here in the UK/SN Chat.

    The Play is happening due to a vow: every ten years after the Plague in the 17th century it’s been happening and as far as I know, also in wartime.

    Unlike you, Satchit, this Director doesn’t at all brag about himself or promote the Play like a hidden anonymous watchman of religious Fundamentalism.

    All these people playing a story over and again from one decade to another, changing the content a bit, they deserve respect – even if one does not feel attracted to going there for that great theatre happening or has found other insights in one s lifetime.

    Madhu

    • P.S. for Satchit and maybe others here:

      TIME IS UP to end all kinds of war happening with the fuel of religious ideologies (hidden or open) up to the present moment re the war amongst brothers and sisters in Ukraine and Russia where the two Christian Patriarchs were/are preaching war in the churches and so-called ‘little people’ lidht candles for those who are going to be butchered in these wars beforehand…ending in tears.

      TIME IS UP for criminals who are out of their minds and hearts in these wars: Wars where women are extremely violated and raped by soldiers in the course of these wars.

      Or where their offspring – the children – are losing their very lives in the course of this kind of utter insanity. (Even then when they kind of survive in the body)…we have a generation s long after-effects as we truly came to know in the twenty-first century. It’s not that we don’t know!

      TIME IS UP to not any more indulge following a kind of TV-Lifestream of War listening to spin-doctors of War – religious or otherwise – the latter like Money-and-Power-rooted spin-doctors’ happenings on any of the sides of war – the ancient ones as well as the very contemporary ones!

    • satchit says:

      Madhu,

      I see in spite of your health problems, your power of aggression is still functioning. Congrats!

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRot9IjNSso

    • Nityaprem says:

      The thing is, the story of what went wrong at the Ranch and Osho’s poisoning doesn’t really contribute anything to his message. It is very unlike Jesus’s almost dying and miraculously reappearing a few days later in that way, because that was the foundation of the Christian miracle story and the big guilt trip of Jesus dying for your sins.

      While I do agree that every large movement needs a great story, I doubt whether the Ranch and what followed will be that for Osho. It was the great experiment that went wrong.

      • satchit says:

        @NP

        “It was the great experiment that went wrong.”

        Yes, but it was no problem for the witness.

        And it was a beautiful and dramatic failure.
        The whole world got to know it.

        Maybe some Wagner music would fit:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcZp7u_Krp8

        • satyadeva says:

          “No problem for the witness…The whole world got to know it.”

          Sure – apart from for the public, Osho becoming largely viewed as a charlatan, his chief disciple as an obnoxious, loud-mouthed, lying criminal, the rest of her top group as partners in crime, and the thousands of followers idealistic but utterly gullible fools.

          Oh, and, er, the similarly minor consequence of Osho’s life being considerably shortened by poisoning (no problem at all for the witness).

          A great outcome, just what Osho/Existence required and the rest of humanity needed!

          • frank says:

            @Satchit

            For sure, the Wagner piece from ‘Apocalypse Now’ is appropriate!

            Colonel Sheela Kurtz, model officer gone bad deep in the twisted jungles of the mind, presiding over her brutal, despotic kingdom in the heart of darkness.

            “The horror, the horror….”

            Mind you, Kurtz never made it onto the chat-show circuit like Sheela has, which is a plot twist that neither Joseph Conrad nor Coppolla envisaged.

            • frank says:

              The “no problem for the witness” spiel is such disembodied nonsense.

              I bet in reality, old Scratchy was going apeshit and doing his nut and had to quickly break out another bottle of Alzheimer Pils when Bayern got knocked out of the Cup by that mickey mouse Spanish team!

              No problem for the witness, though, as he slumped back into his heavily-stained sofa in despair, consoling himself that at least they had won the one-team league again!

              Lol!

              • satchit says:

                No, it is not nonsense, Frankie.

                Right now I watch myself having fun with your description.

                P.S:
                Say hello to your parrot!

                • frank says:

                  @Satchit

                  Let`s try to get to the bottom of this.

                  So, you are slumped on the sofa with a half-empty bottle of Asperger Pils watching an old VHS of Gerd Muller`s greatest goals.

                  You become aware of the witness watching you watching Gerd Muller`s greatest goals on the TV.
                  But who knows this? You realise that it must be another witness that is watching the first witness that is watching you watching Gerd Muller`s greatest goals on the TV. Then you wonder how would you know that unless you were another witness who is watching the witness that is watching the first witness that is watching you watching Gerd Muller`s greatest goals on the TV?

                  Your mind goes blank and you have a satori as Gerd lashes yet another one into the back of the net from an unlikely angle, and as you take another swig of beer and are `mulling` this over in your pils-induced altered state of consciousness, the thought arises:
                  “If Gerd makes a mistake and misses an open goal, how can you say that there has been a mistake, as mistakes are only possible when there is a goal?”

                  As you struggle with this zen koan, your consciousness spins and spirals into a widening void…

                  Not long after this, you have an awakening.

                  You wake up to find your beer spilled all down the front of your trousers, coupled with a warm feeling in the area, the empty bottle on the floor, your TV screen flickering and the realisation dawns on you: there are no more goals.

                • satchit says:

                  @ Frank

                  Fact is, you did hypnotize my parrot
                  with your crazy Müller talk.

                • frank says:

                  @Satchit.
                  Sounds like you and your parrot have been getting mullered!

            • Aaah, sigh… yes, @Frank, and up to just now filling up some end of the verbal virtual uproar on a “Blue Monday”.

              Reminding me that a so-called peace is more often a replacement for war…just using “other weapons”.
              A few moments of so-called relief – not more…!

              Getting stuck for decades with a “Scapegoating-Approach” with whatsoever elitist measures borrowed by whomever doesn’t provide us with any of the lights for a darkened heart inside, so urgently needed.

              And Life is happening somewhere else, isn t it?

              Masters and Mystics – “worth their Salt” (as Lokesh put it) – shared about that Issue (= Scapegoats) – you can deny if you want.

              Also, Osho did share lots of reminders about that Issue of Scapegoating – but sure, only if you are open to hear it and take it to heart.

              The latter to differentiate from a masochistic, immature conditioning may in some lives be an ongoing inner-work, and I know that by my very own experience.

              It’s you, Frank, instead of Lokesh, who’s getting today’s Bavarian Weather Monday-Morning Broadcast:
              Sky in aquamarine BLUE, just a few white clouds to be seen and the small little rosebush I can see when I open the window did proudly open up lots of white blossoms.

              Have a nice Day,

              Madhu

            • Klaus says:

              Doing “the chat-show circuit…” – like for re-instatement.

              People should avoid it.

          • satchit says:

            First, SD, nobody knows if his poisoning was true.
            It is a case of believe it or not.

            Second, Osho never pretended to be a saviour. This was Jesus’s style.

            So the question is:
            What is his basic message?

            For me it is still witnessing. For you?

            Btw, His followers were fools from the very beginning. Nobody who has a clear mind will follow a Sexguru.

            • satyadeva says:

              Satchit, yes, that Osho was poisoned while in custody in America hasn’t been definitively proven; however, there’s plenty of evidence to indicate that’s what happened, with which I suggest you acquaint yourself – unless, of course, you prefer to remain one of the legions of blind “fools” as per your description of “His followers”.

              You miss the point by wilfully misinterpreting me as viewing Osho as a “Saviour” (a description of Jesus which, by the way, was almost certainly coined by the Church). Nevertheless, while he wasn’t naive enough to believe he could convince everyone to ‘follow’ him, realising that his appeal was limited to a particular sector of the world population, so that he didn’t bother wasting time on ‘converting the unconvertable’, the purpose of the Ranch was not only to further his people’s spiritual life but also to demonstrate to the world what could be achieved by the ‘New (Hu)Man’, through the remarkable way it was built, and, crucially, via the energy, authenticity, happiness and love – ie the best of humanity – of its residents.

              Osho’s “basic message”? That depends where each individual is at. I recall a letter sent to me in London back in ’76 or ’77 by one of Laxmi’s office people, in response to my complaints to ‘Bhagwan’ about how hard I was finding life (low energy, fear, worry, everything a struggle, dead-end jobs, little money, poor living situation) where I was urged to “get disidentified and just relax”…Back in those dark days I didn’t understand the message, despite several years of sannyas meditation (which was then becoming virtually useless anyway).

              Authentic witnessing is, I suggest, an advanced stage, which depends on how deep one has gone within, how clear one is, how genuinely still, and which is not necessarily to be confused with a basic functioning faculty of self-consciousness available to all of us. There’s plenty of room for self-delusion, pretending to oneself and others how much of a ‘watcher-on-the-hill’ any-time-meditator one has become. Which could be another way of distancing oneself from things inside that really need to be looked into and resolved/healed, including thinking one has ‘got it all sorted’.

              Returning to the final part of your post, do you now still include yourself as being as foolish and confused as all other sannyasins are (or at least, were)? And do you really think everyone joined up due to sex?

              • satchit says:

                Evidence for poisoning?
                His health problems could have many other reasons.

                And I guess it’s not an easy thing, becoming enlightened at 21, and then living many years with a broken identification with the body.

                No, not everyone joined up due to sex. This was just another one of my dirty jokes.

                • satyadeva says:

                  How far have you investigated Osho’s condition after his 12 days’ imprisonment in the US, Satchit? Not a lot, it would seem

                  For a start, I suggest you read the transcript of this discourse:

                  https://www.oshonews.com/2020/10/28/it-was-a-fight-between-death-and-your-love/

                • frank says:

                  Not everybody joined up for the sex but I think Osho did.
                  It`s part of the whole guru/disciple trip, usually on the quiet.
                  Of the 20th century, Krishnamurti, Muktananda, Maharishi, Yogi Bhajan, Sai Baba, Trungpa, Osho etc. etc.

                  It goes on. It`s actually easier and shorter to name the ones who didn`t conform to the trope.

                • satchit says:

                  SD, I trust my intuition.
                  And my intuition says: maybe yes, maybe no.

                  Why is it necessary for you to convince me?

                • satyadeva says:

                  What do you think is the point of this site, Satchit?

                  Why shouldn’t your statements and views be challenged?

                  Or are you some sort of ‘special case’?

                • satchit says:

                  Yes, we can challenge our views.

                  You believe his words.

                  Maybe I have too often heard:
                  “My words are fingers pointing to the moon, don’t bite into my fingers!”

                  You see, not only a special case, even a lost case.

                • satyadeva says:

                  You’re misusing that quote, Satchit. In his claim of having been poisoned he’s referring to specific details, claimed facts re circumstances he lived through, not to descriptions of meditative processes or states of being that can defy normal rational understanding.

                  And I suggested you read that talk “for a start”. Perhaps, if you have an open mind (which appears not to be the case) you might also consult one or two books that have been written on the subject.

                • satchit says:

                  Yes, SD, you can judge me as misusing a quote, this is your freedom.

                  I did read the talk “for a start”.

                  At the end of the day you live in your world and I live in mine and we can settle the case.

        • Nityaprem says:

          @satchit who wrote, “it was a beautiful and dramatic failure.”

          And even then, except for ‘Wild Wild Country’ it might still have been forgotten. It has a certain air of wild conflict, something almost Shakespearean to it, I will give you that.

          But it could have turned out better for Osho, I think. He was only 58 when he died, not exactly old.

    • Nityaprem says:

      Talking of great stories, here is a short musical interlude:

      https://youtu.be/jWNEr4eHL18

  14. Lokesh says:

    Satchit declares, “In some cases you can learn from experience.”

    Really quite remarkable that Satchit has come to such a deep insight.

  15. @ Klaus
    19 May, 2022 at 12:50 pm

    “Everything that is stored in the system is a (karmic) imprint-kilesa-vasana-veil-blockage – as we name it.”

    Who or what is the “we” you have been talking about today around lunchtime?

    (Or – other way round – what is the role you, Klaus, are playing as a kind of speaker of a “we”?

    Madhu

    • Klaus says:

      Madhu

      Actually, I meant it kind of impersonal, like “or whatever one likes to name it.”

      Maybe I typed a little bit too quickly on my mobile, sitting in the hot sun…and did not look at it too precisely before hitting ‘send’. ::))

      • Nityaprem says:

        Klaus

        It happens to us all that we get a little imprecise. The Gelug Tibetan Buddhist monk who was teaching me probably wouldn’t approve of calling vasanas and kilesas the same either. According to Wikipedia, vasanas are “karmic imprints that may influence actions” while a kilesa is a “negative mental state or emotion”.

        • Klaus says:

          Oh, NP, good information!
          I guess, this makes a difference: then I do not need to worry too much about kilesa states.

          • Klaus says:

            NP

            I actually like being precise. It is good to know the details of what one is talking about.

            Nowadays I’m just a householder…the Tibetan lamas & rinpoches are certainly more professional and profound in their studies.

            I wish for everyone to experience in practice the depths of their studies. And I would enjoy the person’s success, too!

            Sympathetic joy (mudita) is something…wonderful.

            • Nityaprem says:

              @Klaus

              Wunderbahr…I like to actually know what people are talking about, so the definition of terms is useful. Luckily in Buddhism there are quite a few scholars who tend to be obsessed with what the rest of us pay only passing notice to.

              • @ Nityaprem, who says:
                “Luckily in Buddhism there are quite a few scholars who tend to be obsessed with what the rest of us pay only passing notice to.”

                “Luck” you say? Being in a grip of an ‘obsession’?

                I’d like to put that into question.

                Sure enough though – the virtual plane we are about to meet here in SN/UK gives lots of ‘Thors’ to swing a “hammer”. Doesn t it?

                Does it help?

                Madhu

  16. frank says:

    This recent online article is addressed “To the Osho community” so I forward it to here for any who might be interested.

    I wonder what the punters here make of it and how they might react to it.

    https://www.erinrobbins.life/letter-to-osho-community

    • Lokesh says:

      Yeah, I read the article. Had already read it somewhere else. What to say? Nothing is what it seems. I do not feel anything about such revelations. Too busy with today to bother thinking about what was going on decades ago in a scene I had already said goodbye to.

      More important things to attend to like repotting a few plants. Very symbolic. Those hanging on to their old sannyasin crutches need repotting.

      • swamishanti says:

        It’s a shame that the woman in question, some forty years later, after her life in the commune, feels abused.

        I wasn’t there in the bedroom at that time and, assuming that this particular story is true, I feel it’s a shame that the woman apparently got nothing from receiving shaktipat in this manner from her guru, especially when there were thousands of other women who would have yearned to be in the same position with him.

        Sex and transmission of shaktipat with an enlightened man/woman in this way, can be extremely powerful and beneficial for a disciple, in India there are whole traditions around it.

        • Lokesh says:

          Guru Shanti is dreaming again.

        • Nityaprem says:

          Hmm, well, the letter doesn’t read in the slightest esoteric or shaktipat-like, or haven’t you read it? Secret invitation at midnight to give a blow job and perform a sex show with Vivek, no consent asked? Sounds like abuse and a crazy power trip to me.

          • swamishanti says:

            Yes, I read it and a few others last year sometime courtesy of Mr Luke Mitchell (Lokesh).

            It is true that Osho seems to have had a bit of a ‘wham, bham, thank you, mam’ attitude towards sex with women other than Vivek. That was part of his thing, I think. He once said, “Sex is like shaking hands”, or something to that effect.

            Perhaps this didn’t work out so well for all of them…some women prefer more attention and time….

            • satyadeva says:

              Ironic that the above is a description of “the sex guru”. I’m looking forward to hearing what women make of that, perhaps especially the last paragraph. I reckon you’re in for a right hammering….

        • simond says:

          How do you know shaktipat can be extremely powerful and beneficial for a disciple?

          This sort of make-believe thinking is what makes sexual abuse such a common experience in the spiritual community. This is just another of your borrowed knowledge.

          “I, as a master, know what’s best for you, and surrendering to my higher knowledge is good for you”, “oh and by the way, keep it quiet.”

          My sense of this is that it shows how enlightenment is never “complete”. Osho may have been enlightened about the transcendental, but his understanding of sex and women left a lot to be desired. Indeed, his actions demonstrate how grubby that part of his mind was.

          • swamishanti says:

            @simond you put:
            “How do you know shaktipat can be extremely powerful and beneficial for a disciple?
            This sort of make-believe thinking is what makes sexual abuse such a common experience in the spiritual community. This is just another of your borrowed knowledge.”

            This is where you’ve put your foot in it, with your assumptions that my knowledge is “borrowed”. But it also means I have to talk about my personal life.

            So, I have experienced that shatikpat can be transmitted powerfully sexually because actually it happened with my girlfriend. I triggered a kundalini awakening in her through sex, this was many years ago. That awakening went on to transform her life and greatly helped her own spiritual path.

            I am not enlightened, but I know that this kind of sexual contact can be extremely powerful – and helpful. And if it can happen though me, then the old tantric tradition of a guru giving shaktipat in this way can also be valid.

            • simond says:

              I stand corrected on your experience – and it’s great that you reveal what is your own understanding, rather than theorise.

              However, does that mean Osho or others did the same? You’ll know as well as I do how sexual predators use all sorts of ‘clever’ reasoning to justify their actions.

              In Osho’s case it appears to me he is guilty as charged.

            • Nityaprem says:

              I would say it is only “real” if you can duplicate it and trigger it consciously.

              I once tried to mind-control a pigeon, and it did exactly as I asked, for about 30 seconds, and then it flew away. I’ve never since been able to duplicate a special rapport with pigeons. ;)

            • Klaus says:

              Well, that sounds…at the least promising.

              It also could happen the other way around.

              In the ZEN approach ‘it’ – satori, kundalini, awakening, slipping into nothingness/the void – could also happen while washing the dishes or harking the stone garden.

              It all depends on how prepared a person is.

              Buddhist mumbo-jumbo:
              According to one’s paramis suitable conditions etc. etc. will arise and all doors are open….

              MOD:
              Klaus, could you clarify what “harking” and “paramis” mean, please?

              • Klaus says:

                Oh:

                …and even without anyone else being around.

                No guru, no method, no teacher.
                Thats what Van Morrison claimed.

                • satyadeva says:

                  And is Van the man a good example of spirituality? Or just another emotionally-deluded egotist, albeit one who can write great songs?

              • Klaus says:

                Mod:

                Sorry, I was typing from my mind…and not checking vocabulary:
                harking = raking

                paramis: buddhist term for virtues (or more commonly, good karma) to be cultivated/accumulated which will take the meditation yogi “beyond”.

                Quote:
                “The Paramis to be cultivated

                In Buddhism, these virtues are cultivated as a way of purification, purifying karma and helping the aspirant to live an unobstructed life, while reaching the goal of enlightenment.

                The word pāramī derives from parama, ‘supreme,’ and thus suggests the eminence of the qualities which must be fulfilled by a bodhisattva in the long course of his spiritual development. But the word preferred by Pāli writers, is sometimes explained as pāram + ita, ‘gone to the beyond,’ thereby indicating the transcendental direction of these qualities.”

                1. Dāna pāramī : generosity, giving of oneself
                2. Sīla pāramī : virtue, morality, discipline, proper conduct,
                3. Nekkhamma pāramī : renunciation
                4. Paññā pāramī : transcendental wisdom, insight
                5. Viriya pāramī : energy, diligence, vigour, effort
                6. Khanti pāramī : patience, tolerance, forbearance, acceptance, endurance
                7. Sacca pāramī : truthfulness, honesty
                8. Adhiṭṭhāna pāramī : determination, resolution
                9. Mettā pāramī : loving-kindness
                10. Upekkhā pāramī : equanimity, serenity
                11. Dhyāna pāramitā : one-pointed concentration, contemplation
                12. Prajñā pāramitā : wisdom, insight
                13. Upāya pāramitā: skillful means
                14. Praṇidhāna pāramitā: vow, resolution, aspiration, determination
                15. Bala pāramitā: spiritual power
                16. Jñāna pāramitā: knowledge

                Unquote
                from here:
                https://buddhistbasics.com/the-ten-paramis/

                That is also where past lives come in: everyone has already accumulated some of these.
                Whether these are “complete” only meditation practice might show.

                For myself I know that I am most certainly lacking
                wisdom = prajna
                and
                energy = viriya

                Once these things, including the enlightenment factors, are balanced, ‘it’ might happen anytime….

                Van the Man is spiritually imo most likely not a good example, i.e. no realisation, just words plus feelings.

                • Klaus says:

                  Addition:

                  Out of my experience on this path I can say that if these factors are not cultivated by one’s own effort even with the help of the teacher one will fall back to the level ‘work for oneself’.

                  With shaktipat one can certainly go far (all the way..?) but without maintaining one’s own meditation practice – dingdong: falling down again.

                  Beware:
                  There is no progress without one’s own discipline (see no. 2 – Sila – discipline) plus meditation practice (no. 11 – Dhyana).
                  The others – imo – are more or less connected….

                  Buddhist mumbo-jumbo.

                  There are certainly other ways and means.

                • Klaus says:

                  10 Paramis = Theravada Buddhism / Burma, Thailand, Laos, Sri Lanka etc.

                  6 Paramitas = Mahayana Buddhism / Tibetan etc.

                  That’s why 16. points.

                  Sorry confusion.

            • frank says:

              Guru Shanti,
              My shagging is pretty impressive too.

              I guess it all started in a past life when I got a job as an artists` model in Khajuraho, 969AD.
              Call me Rock Hardwar. That`s what Shakti Pat calls me and she should know. Man, you should see the juggernauts on her; to be fair you probably have as you sound like the sort of guy who watches the Khajuraho channel.

              Btw, have you read the Upanishags by Sid the Sexist? It`s literally banging, man.
              Patriarchal Indian culture is where it’s at. Lord Krishna with his 16,0000 bitches?
              Absolute GOAT.

    • satyadeva says:

      One rather odd thing is that she refers to her current “wife”. I wonder whether these sex sessions with Osho put her off men for the rest of her life, or whether she always had a bi-sexual tendency. And if the latter, whether Osho might have been attempting to ‘straighten her out’ (as it were). (And I’m not trying to ‘exonerate’ Osho here).

      • Lokesh says:

        “straighten her out”? I doubt it. I remember her being with guys in the ashram.

        It is a pity that Osho turned out to be another sexual predator guru preying on his female disciples. He showed so much promise in the early days…so much good vibes…said so many wonderful things and then turns out to be the same old, same old. Bummer! Life goes on.

        Of course, there will still be idiots who write all this off as judging the ways of an ‘Enlightened One’. We’ll leave those questions to fools like Satchit to write about.

        NP obviously has not read about all the allegations about young sannyasin girls in their early teens being sexually abused in the commune that surfaced about a year ago. This had nothing to do with Osho and everything to do with a small group of men in the commune taking advantage of kids. Kinda weird but these incidents actually happened, blackening the already bad rep of the sannyas scene. It’s history now and I know for certain some of the guys who were named had to deal with a lot of shit due to this.

        • satchit says:

          The general question is:

          Can an unenlightened being judge the behaviour of an enlightened one?

          • Klaus says:

            With regard to non-consensual acts and possible criminal acts like abuse we can certainly judge it.

            Whether it means anything to the enlightened one is not a question asked in the worldly courts.

          • satyadeva says:

            Well, I’d say Erin certainly can, yes. Wouldn’t you agree?

            If you never actually met Osho, Satchit, and never received any personal feedback from him, then perhaps you’ve nurtured a rather over-idealistic, romanticised perception of him, which can be a sort of ‘easy way out’ for some people, who create a ‘convenient’ version of him that suits them, a ‘master in their own image’, as it were. Hence your unwillingness to discuss certain issues that might tend to upset this image of Osho and/or of yourself.

            • satchit says:

              You have a strange picture of me, SD. But what to say, it’s your choice.

              I did read the article again and strange, I did not find anything about rape.

              I mean she was 25 years and felt good that she was getting this much attention from her beloved Master.

              There was always the possibilty to say, “No, I don’t want.” But she did not. So it was certainly consensual and no crime at all.

              But people are strange, years later they come up with “abuse”, not taking the responsibility for what they have done in the past.

              • Lokesh says:

                Satchit, if you were paid for the utter stupidity you write, you might well be rich.

                Osho abused the trust the woman placed in him. Plain and simple. The fact that you don’t get what that actually means in terms of Osho’s ridiculous and predatory behaviour is testimony to what a complete fool you are. In that aspect of your life, you are indeed total, totally dumb.

                • satchit says:

                  Yes, Loco, Osho was certainly the sugar-daddy for all the women.

                  It was not only a case of trust but also of saying “No”. But this your dumb mind cannot understand.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Yeah, right, Satchit. Just say “no”. You and Nancy Reagan would have got along like a white house on fire.

                  The simplicity of your response slots you in a 12 year-old’s mindset.

                • satchit says:

                  Seems you are the only one who is childish here, Lokesh.

                  Trusting Osho does not mean that you are no more responsible for your life.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  @Lokesh

                  I think you are right, Osho did abuse Erin’s trust. He didn’t deny himself anything, it seems, even when that violated the bond between master and disciple.

              • Nityaprem says:

                @satchit

                You could say she didn’t protest and so there was ‘consent’ but I think it was a special situation. Osho talked many times about the master-disciple relationship, and that she was involved in that way imposes a duty of care on him, not to abuse the trust and his position of power as guru.

                • satchit says:

                  @NP

                  It depends what the lesson was to learn for the disciple.

                  If the lesson was to trust herself and learn to say No, then she missed it in the situation.

                  And certainly it is maybe more difficult to say No to the Master than to anybody else.

                  I also doubt that she did not speak with anybody about this.

                  I know these blow-job stories already more than 20 years.

                • satyadeva says:

                  And the Master bears no responsibility for the situation, knowing that she’s “missing” the “lesson” – for many years?! Or was he only too pleased to take advantage and really couldn’t care less?

                • satyadeva says:

                  Maybe the times we’re in are so degenerate that we can not expect any ‘master’ to be without flaws, perhaps particularly re sex. Maybe a master is not just a reflection of the Truth of our Being but also of the condition of his people whose beliefs, values etc. are themselves products of the age. As Osho and, as Frank recently pointed out, quite a few others in the same trade, were conditioned in deeply repressed India, it might not be all that surprising that they took advantage of their extraordinary position, while often preferring to hide this from public screwtiny, er, I mean scrutiny.

                  I recall a conversation with a sceptical Indian man in Pune’s Cafe Delite in the mid-70s where he asked Bhagwan’s age and responded to my answer with, “Ah, a randy 40-something, eh?!” To which, genuinely offended and pitying the man’s obvious prejudice, I had little choice but to defend the master’s'celibate purity’. Seems the ‘ignorant’ gentleman might have been on the right track…although it’s a track I’m sure he himself envied a great deal!

                • satchit says:

                  I think the Master is no therapist.

                  Things happen around him, maybe he is aware, maybe not.

                  To blame it all on him is a bit too easy.

                • satyadeva says:

                  To suggest that throughout their apparently many sexual liaisons Osho, a tantric master, never realised Erin wasn’t getting any benefits, seems far-fetched, to put it mildly.

                • frank says:

                  SD, Yes, it`s standard behaviour repeated with monotonous predictability by gurus of all stripes.
                  It is no surprise that the defensive ploy of “we unenlightened are not worthy to judge the master” is wheeled out by disciples clinging like limpets to their piece of driftwood from the sinking Titanic. Disciples of every so-called master whose secret activities have been exposed (and there are so many of them) have tried this one. Standard stuff.

                  I am slightly more surprised that folks haven`t doubted the veracity of the story, saying that anyone could claim this kind of thing. However, the fact that there have been other similar stories also surfacing would seem to have to made this approach harder to hold to.

                  For myself, anyone who presents a claim that a guru that has sex in such a secretive and manipulative context has done it as a “lesson” for the disciple and is oblivious of the power/trust abuse element is simply either desperate to hold onto their bogus image of the guru and by extension, themselves, or shows that they lack basic intelligence and humanity. Probably both.

                  Most disturbing is that there is no way that they could have thought these kind of thoughts before being exposed to the words/philosophy propounded by the guru himself.

                  That`s actually gaslighting and grooming as well as good ol` brainwashing.

                • swamishanti says:

                  @NP, Osho spoke about and taught tantra and could very much be described as a ‘tantric master’.

                  It would be unrealistic to expect him to maintain the lifestyle of a celibate, or describe him as ‘abusing the trust’ of his disciple.

                  Of course, if anyone feels abused in any way in a guru/disciple relationship then it can be healthy for them to talk about it and that may be therapeutic/cathartic in this case for Erin.

                • satyadeva says:

                  “It would be unrealistic to expect him to maintain the lifestyle of a celibate, or describe him as ‘abusing the trust’ of his disciple.”

                  Why would it be “unrealistic”, Shanti, if that is the woman’s experience?

                  “Of course, if anyone feels abused in any way in a guru/disciple relationship then it can be healthy for them to talk about it and that may be therapeutic/cathartic in this case for Erin.”

                  I wonder why she didn’t mention this to Osho. Too intimidated? Not enough self-esteem? Fear of being rejected? Or why Osho apparently didn’t enquire about how she was doing.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Osho, the tantric master, never claimed to be celibate. That has nothing to do with misusing the trust placed in him by his female disciples. To imagine in some way this had to do with an energry transmission on his part is pure bullshit.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  @swamishanti

                  If, as you say, Osho was this great Tantric master, then why the secrecy? Why midnight blow jobs and not real Tantric sex?

                  No, SS, that doesn’t hold any water.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  @satyadeva and @swamishanti

                  “Of course, if anyone feels abused in any way in a guru/disciple relationship then it can be healthy for them to talk about it and that may be therapeutic/cathartic in this case for Erin.”

                  “I wonder why she didn’t mention this to Osho. Too intimidated? Not enough self-esteem? Fear of being rejected? Or why Osho apparently didn’t enquire about how she was doing.”

                  From the podcast, Erin was groomed across a number of meetings, being told “100% surrender” was required. And that stayed with her for 43 years. Courageous of her to tell the story now.

                • frank says:

                  Anand Yogi writes:
                  I am reminded of the day when I came across my master Swami Bhorat in the back of his Rolls Royce, late at night cavorting with a couple of Tamil actresses. They were on their knees in front of him in time-honoured devotion with heads bobbing up and down in time to devotional music that was playing on car stereo. The floor was littered with empty bottles of Armagnac and gin, nitrous oxide canisters, empty bidi packets, chewed paan leaves, porn mags, tissues, piles of used notes, watches, firearms and empty packets of red and blue pills…

                  Fortunately, I had read ‘Autostimulation of a Yogi’ several times and listened carefully to what master had said about ultimate longings of women so I realised that what was going on was tantric shaktipat, not some kind of abuse as claimed by Meetoo-inspired unconscious westerner baboons who are stuck in their minds and do not understand Indian culture!

                  Yahoo!

                • swamishanti says:

                  @Lokesh:
                  There is always an energy transmission. It just depends whether we are open to receive it.

                  @NP:
                  There was secrecy but Osho would have had many women who wanted to be sexually intimate with him and declaring he was with anyone in particular would have created jealousy amongst many.

                  Anyhow, how he handled his private life was his own business.

                  We must also be wary of reading too much into Erin’s story, as we cannot see the whole picture, only a snapshot created by her and only what she has chosen to write and the way she has chosen to portray it.

                  We were not flies on the wall, and there will have been many other women who have been intimate who will give very different, positive accounts of sex life with Osho. No doubt. Only they have not written about them anywhere.

                  Ozen Rajneesh had a few people leave his Mexican commune several years ago, creating a site to try to pull him down. They made him look pretty bad but, others of his commune members, including people involved, put forward a very different story, even here on SN.

                  Some time later Ozen’s team created this, which gave a more rounded picture:
                  https://ozentherealstory.com/

                • frank says:

                  “It`s tantra and Shaktipat.”
                  “We shouldn`t read too much into it.”

                  Which is it?
                  Shanti, you are confused.
                  And now trying to bring in Swami Brian as back-up?
                  Omg.
                  I hear there are some vacant beds at the Chernobyl Electroshock Hospital.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  This whole story makes me wonder about Vivek’s death. If she was so involved as Erin’s letter shows her to be, I wonder what would have been going through her mind during those last hours… Certainly Osho has to bear some responsibility there, too.

                • swamishanti says:

                  The circumstances surrounding Vivek’s death are really very unclear. She had been in relationships with other men for some time and was dating Jayesh at the time.

                  There are many sannyasins, including some who lived in Osho’s household, who doubt that her death was a case of suicide.

                  Apparent overdose of sleeping pills has been talked about but some doubt this. Such as Nivedano giving his tribute to her here with his musical voice:
                  https://youtu.be/lP5luopL_uc

    • Nityaprem says:

      @frank

      Thanks for the article. I found it rather shocking. It’s not how I am used to picturing Osho, but I don’t see any reason to call into question what Erin says. It makes me sad, as Lokesh said, to see someone of such high potential as Osho abuse his power in such a way. What of all the lectures where he spoke out against porn, the gays? Then to read this that seems a bit hypocritical.

      The bit where Erin talks about sexual abuse of commune children, that is something I have no knowledge of. Boys and girls were in separate cabins on the Ranch, and as a teenager I noticed a lot of the girls were ‘unavailable’ for the usual experimentation. But I never did find out exactly what was going on, by the time I got interested the Ranch folded. I did hear later on from some of the girls in the Dutch commune about “loving initiations” at age 13, which is certainly not legal here.

    • Klaus says:

      Woooosh…That was in the coming, wasn’t it? However, this is the first time I’ve read about a person who had such an experience directly.

      Idolisation and low self-esteem make a sorry mixture with regard to perceiving clearly plus thinking and acting independently.

      Even for people who come from a so-called rich background where people (normally) are said to have abundant confidence and power to act.

      To me, this feels quite sad and again takes away from my still remaining naivety and spiritual romance.

      Such is disillusionment and I feel for the persons who got downtrodden by such situations. Hopefully they will be able to heal traumatising experiences with all the support available.

      Now I am waiting for the ‘official stances’ of the current representatives of Sannyas. If there are any: official stances as well as people who are – or feel to be – the representatives.

      • Lokesh says:

        Klaus, these stories have been circulating for some time now and I reckon most of them are true.
        There is a saying, ‘When it comes to gurus, take the best and forget the rest.’

        Since these allegations first surfaced over a year ago, I have had plenty of time to think about it and my own relationship with Osho over 40 years ago. I have much to be grateful to him for. He gave me help when I needed it and asked nothing in return. I prefer to remind myself about that, rather than get into all the weird shit he had going on in his life in his later years. Beats me why Osho did all the strange things that he did. He definitely abused the trust certain female disciples placed in him.

        NP concludes, “Then to read this that seems a bit hypocritical.”
        A bit hypocritical? On a few levels, Osho was a complete hypocrite. It is history now as far as I am concerned. Live and learn.

        • Klaus says:

          Lokesh,

          One cannot know all acts and motives of other persons, I guess. I do not have an impulse to research and judge. Mostly I am looking at myself, feeling and seeing the reactions coming and blindfolds I might have had.

          So, I get your drift and the valuable personal experience you have had. “Live and learn” – good one, indeed….

        • Nityaprem says:

          @Lokesh who wrote:
          “Since these allegations first surfaced over a year ago, I have had plenty of time to think about it and my own relationship with Osho over 40 years ago. I have much to be grateful to him for. He gave me help when I needed it and asked nothing in return.”

          Yeah, I can see that. But as a child, my perspective was somewhat different. Osho’s views on sex and partnership contributed, I believe, to my parents separating a few years after we all took sannyas. I moved house 13 times with my father in 8 years (not counting moves inside the communes) up to the age of 16, each move costing me all my friends and a familiar environment. It was really hard for me to have girlfriends. Growing up solely with a sannyasin father, his various girlfriends and a mother in another country was not easy. So our whole pursuit of Osho did cost me certain parts of a normal childhood.

          But Osho did bring me certain things. An early knowledge of all kinds of spirituality. Travel. A couple of years in America. Interesting schools. Fluency in the English language. An experience of commune life.

          Who knows how things might have turned out…?

    • Nityaprem says:

      @frank

      This could easily have been a new topic on SannyasNews, there is a lot of stuff to discuss about it.

      • frank says:

        NP,
        I think you are right. It certainly qualifies as `Sannyas news`!

        Up till now these discussions and revelations have been taking place on mostly private Facebook accounts.

        By putting out a podcast and placing the letter on her website, Erin Robbins is the first to put her story fully `out there`. It`s current and one would expect more online comment.

        Over to you, MOD.

    • Nityaprem says:

      Song for Erin Robbins — musical interlude

      https://youtu.be/1zvCpfOJaYY

    • Nityaprem says:

      Erin Robbins also did an hour-long podcast with ‘A Little Bit Culty’, a podcasting team that specialises in cult topics. It’s only a little sensationalised in the introduction, mostly straightforward.

      https://podcasts.apple.com/nl/podcast/surviving-wild-wild-country-erin-robbins-speaks-out/id1553334816?i=1000556151327&l=en

      • Nityaprem says:

        I would really suggest that if people want a deeper look at what Erin is saying about her experiences, listening to the podcast is a good idea.

      • Nityaprem says:

        What I find surprising about Erin’s talk on the podcast is the talk about ‘surrender to Osho’ for the meetings for mediums (and being told to wear loose, flowing clothes with no underwear) and then later the midnight secret sex sessions? It’s like she was being prepared, set up.

        Why the secrecy? If Osho wanted to have sex, he could have taken one or more consenting partners in the open, it’s nothing unusual. But the secrecy and the psychological preparation and the not asking for consent makes it feel like there is more going on, a power trip, brainwashing and hidden coercion.

        Maybe in India, where views on sex are different, it wouldn’t have been seen as very respectable. But Osho never let that bother him in any other circumstances.

  17. Lokesh says:

    Ultimately, what broke my connection to the sannyasin scene had nothing to do with Osho’s madcap behaviour. It was the guns. When I saw those twats in lilac police uniforms in Oregon, wearing peaked hats and rotting machine guns, I realized I wanted no part of it.

    Then we had Sheela Kurz in charge, a completely egotistical nut job. Anyone who wanted to follow orders dealt out by that deranged woman needed psychiatric help. The show went on for a while and I got busy building a life for myself and my family in Spain. Then the Ranch collapsed and Osho ended up in India and it was business as usual for a while until Osho died. Now the dirty laundry is hanging out for everyone to see. Pretty awful.

    I do not see anyone as being particularly responsible for the mess. Osho never hid the fact that he was crazy. I do believe there is a collective responsibility. The sannyasin sheep will continue to bleat that it was all a device for their awakening, while they sleep on into eternity. A thousand and one trite sayings about the mystery of what an enlightened master’s behaviour represents etc. But was Osho enlightened? Who really knows? Personally, I doubt it. Taking into account all that has now been revealed about Osho’s private life, it is difficult to tie it all in with him being a buddha. Buddhas do not trick their female disciples into giving them blow jobs. That is bullshit. And it is swallowing that kind of bullshit that lies at the heart of the shambles that represents Sannyas today.

    Not enough sannyasins had the guts to stand up and say this and that is wrong. So brainwashed into ‘acceptance’ and ‘surrender’ and being non-judgemental they had become. Doing nothing about all those wrongs was the greatest of crimes in the sannyas community. Of course, the more intelligent and discerning packed their bags and got out.

    Having said all that, it must be acknowledged that Osho was directly responsible for a lot of good. In his own way, he changed people’s lives for the better. He did much to promote a meditative lifestyle. You can’t knock that. He made the world a wee bit better than the way he found it. That is a great accomplishment. That is the best a human being can do in life. As for the rest, forget it and remember that you won’t be fooled again.

    • Nityaprem says:

      Osho certainly was good for a long time at maintaining a certain image. When you hear about him picking the photos that were going to be used for his books, or his robe, or his towel over the arm, he was very aware of how he came across.

      But his teachings did, as you say, make a positive impact on many people. Living, laughter, celebration, it’s a message that still speaks to me today and that I need to be reminded of every so often. He did make the world better, and that, as you say, @Lokesh, is a great accomplishment.

      So how do we square that with what Erin Robbins experienced? I think it’s clear that Osho was not immune to desire. I don’t think he was a buddha, he was uniquely his own kind of man, who succumbed to the temptations of power once in a while. He made a big show of placing women in positions of power and then privately he does something like this. Sometimes he manipulated people, I’ve heard.

      I think it is not bad to be fooled. For many sannyasins and ex-sannyasins this was the richest period in their lives. But I think it is important to maintain some boundaries, some feeling for what is good for your deep inner self so that you don’t end up like Erin did finding out 40 years later that someone has transgressed.

      • Lokesh says:

        I won’t end up like Erin did finding out 40 years later that someone has transgressed, because Osho never asked me to give him a blow-job.

      • swamishanti says:

        In your studies you have moved into the Buddhist way of considering enlightenment, @NP. In the Buddhist tradition, a Buddha is expected to live without enjoying desire in the sense of no material attachments, no sex, etc.

        Thankfully, Osho burnt all of those conditions and various restrictions and we now have a life-affirmative spirituality as part of Osho’s heritage, where it is possible for an enlightened one, a Buddha, to lead a normal, ordinary life, enjoying sex, beers, tv, motor cars, cigars, whatever he fancies. These things will not affect his enlightenment nor his enlightened transmission in the least.

        The old rules and regulations, set by Buddhism are what I would describe as “All-inclusive meditation bollocks”. Although they are not really part of meditation practice itself, but rather unnecessary requirements , multiple restrictions and moral expectations.

        • Nityaprem says:

          I think though that the buddhists are right on quite a few counts. If you really become mindfully aware, you don’t desire beer so much anymore, because you notice what alcohol does to you. And the precept is against sexual misconduct, and I would say abuse of power is often part of that.

          For me, the key to interacting with others has always been “do not do to others what you would not wish to be done unto you.” Known as the golden rule. Now I am beginning to doubt Osho understood that.

          • swamishanti says:

            I can see that you’re well into Buddhism.

            Osho was really not into giving rules, regulations, outer rules of conduct or moral codes…just freedom but focusing on witnessing…which always turns into love and compassion at some point.

            • Nityaprem says:

              I think you’re somewhat naive about our inner world, Swamishanti, and Osho was not nearly as nice as you give him credit for. He was sometimes fiery and angry and insulting of people, qualities you wouldn’t find in a Buddhist speaker.

              • swamishanti says:

                I don’t figure how you find me “naive about out inner world”, NP.

                I agree that Osho was indeed fiery and occasionally even nasty, especially when dishing out ‘hits’, to a group of visiting Roman Catholic priests, for example, in Pune Two (Christianity the deadliest poison and Zen the antidote to all poisons) and on many other occasions telling people what they didn’t want to hear based on the particular ego identification of whoever happened to be sitting in front of him.

                He loved provoking people.
                I enjoy it sometimes when people get provoked, and it amuses me when I see various religious and spiritual types getting upset about Osho (and believe me, there are so many of them there) but I wouldn’t do the things that Osho did.

                I am much more of a friendly person, although can be fiery. I’m not into expensive watches. Actually, I was thinking about the differences between myself and Osho just the other day.

                However, Osho was as compassionate a man as you will find. His very being was love. A Buddhist preacher talks about nice things and has been tauhgt to behave in a particular way but has not the compassion or the inner light of an Osho.

                Perhaps we’ll talk again in two weeks. I’ve just put my crash helmet on.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Guru Shanti concludes, “Otherwise it all remains simply speculation on a purely intellectual level.”

                  Yes, that is true. Funny enough, Guru Shanti is the person most guilty of that on SN. Having read many of his holiness’s comments I have come to the conclusion that he never actually met Osho, in the sense of sitting down with the man and having a wee chat with the man. Of course, I might be mistaken, but I doubt it.

                  He describes Osho as an enlightened being, but taking into consideration the current debate, Osho was a pretty ordinary Indian in the way he treated some of his female sannyasins in requesting that they perform sexual acts for him. There was nothing tantric about it.

                  Osho began to rise in the guru ranks with the publication of ‘From Sex to Superconsciousness’, a book in which he talks about hours-long lovemaking sessions. It is pretty clear from several women’s accounts that Osho definitely did not practise what he preached on this level…quite the opposite…a one minute quickie with absolutely no foreplay was the order of the day. This is extremely hypocritical. What is enlightened about that? Sweet fuck all.

                  Therefore it can be said that Guru Shanti’s ideas about Osho are based on speculation and projection because he does not have a clue about who and what Osho actually was. From personal experience, I can honestly say that Osho was a truly remarkable man with the most powerful good vibes I have ever been fortunate enough to meet. I very much doubt he was enlightened in a spiritual sense because he left behind too much dirty laundry.

                  Good for Osho. He blew all the spiritual lame ducks like Guru Shanti clean out of the water, leaving them floating around in no mind’s land trying to make sense of it all, when in fact it was all complete non-sense.

                • swamishanti says:

                  Indeed, I did arrive in Pune One after Osho had gone into silence.

                  After that he stopped giving the same darshans that you went to and he only discoursed later.
                  However, I do know a fair amount of sannyasins who met him personally. One friend told me that when he sat in front of Osho he went out of his body and right up above the ashram and could look down and actually see himself sitting there down in front of Osho below.
                  However, instead of Osho he could see only a very bright white light.

                  I didn’t know Osho personally as a man but my understanding is not only based on intellectual speculation, indeed it arises from a deep connection with Osho – that has arisen inside of me. Therefore it is on a deep spiritual level and has dispelled any doubts that my mind used to produce.

                  I agree Osho was absolutely ordinary, I won’t agree that there was nothing tantric about his sexual enjoyments. But I really couldn’t care less as I am not overly interested in his sex life.

                  See you in a couple of weeks. Got my helmet on now.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Yes, many have their special spiritual experiences due to sitting in front of Osho, myself included. In retrospect I really can’t say for sure how valid any of those experiences are. It must be taken into account that gurus like Osho present us with the perfect screen to project our spiritual fantasies onto.

                  The heart of the matter is that true spiritual experience has nothing to do with spiritual experiences, and everything to do with that which views the experiences. It is therefore that I take everyone’s spiritual experiences stories with a pinch of curry powder, especially my own.

                • Klaus says:

                  The inner world, too, is full of phenomena. No surprise there.

                  I enjoy how you have put this in your last comment, Loke…
                  “Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose.”

                  I guess this includes spiritual phenomena, also.

                • Klaus says:

                  See the left out “buddhist mumbo-jumbo”?

                • satchit says:

                  Lokesh, I see your doubt.

                  You think, now this Osho has betrayed the trust of female disciples, maybe he has betrayed me too.
                  Maybe he is a fraud, maybe he is not enlightened at all?

                  I say, don’t worry, he is still enlightened, just the Indian style.

                  So long being used to this guy, one forgets the basics easily.

                  And one can be happy that it is not enlightenment, Russian-style.

                  Take it easy!

                • Nityaprem says:

                  @swamishanti who wrote “his very being was love”

                  Now, I don’t see how you can know that. If you look at the books throughout his career, there were plenty of instances which demonstrate him feeling anger and not being particularly pleasant. Erin’s accounts show Osho’s manipulative side.

                  Whether a buddhist teacher has the same inner light as Osho, I was once at a ceremony given by the Dagpo Rinpoche, a fairly prominent Tibetan buddhist figure, and he had a definite radiance.

                • swamishanti says:

                  @Nityaprem

                  Ok, thanks. I discovered unconditional love inside myself through meditation, at that time I wept in gratitude to Osho as he had been my main teacher in meditation in this lifetime. He had spoken about it, now I was experiencing it myself.

                  That opening of the heart grew deeper and deeper with more meditation and is the best feeling experience.

                  There are some things that can only be understood by experience. Unconditional love is one of them. One does not have to be enlightened to be feeling unconditional love as an ongoing experience, and it doesn’t mean that one will not get angry, have moods, or even act in ways that others may consider unreasonable.

                  Later I came into contact with some enlightened masters, and felt the unconditional love coming from them also.

                  Later I unexpectedly developed an inner connection with Osho. I will not write about that much. It was enough to dispel any doubts that my mind occasionally produced, and I could feel his love also. I could understand things from his books more clearly, in fact it changed my whole perspective of Osho.

                  Psychology, science are unable to understand love, the growth of consciousness through meditation, etc. You can doubt me, think I am imagining or deluded but ultimately you can only discover these things yourself through your own meditation practice.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Shanti, up to now I haven’t seen any evidence of any “unconditional love” for Erin and her plight.

                  Or are you leaving that for Osho to have taken care of?

                • frank says:

                  Shanti says:
                  “You can doubt me, think I am imagining or deluded, but ultimately you can only discover these things yourself through your own meditation practice.”

                  Yawn. You are getting to sound more and more like yet another online satsang junkie on a wannabe guru trip.

                  It happens all the time to people who watch too many Youtube gurus and Samdarshis, Brians and their Osho impressionist ilk and read too much Sid the Sexist and his amazing Upanishad sidhis/Autostimulation of a Yogi-type superpower nonsense and think, “I want to be Hari Puttah.”

                  Get real, bro.

                • swamishanti says:

                  SD, I cannot comment on Erin because I cannot see the whole situation, how she was at the time, what was really going on, if her feelings changed later, her own personal psychological state and her later life, etc.

                  As far Osho is concerned the unconditional love was always there. After enlightenment all fear disappears and only love is left. I trust him on spiritual matters absolutely. No matter what his particular bedroom antics were, his attitude to sex, etc.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Have you listened to the podcast, Shanti? That should help clarify these aspects.

                  As for trusting Osho on spiritual matters, I agree, he was/is a great master. However, you seem to separate “his particular bedroom antics…his attitude to sex, etc.” from the rest of his teaching, as if they were relatively unimportant, when that whole area of life is hugely significant for humanity, responsible for much unhappiness as well as joy, and where it wouldn’t be unreasonable to expect an example of ‘enlightened’ behaviour from ‘the master of masters’, would it?

    • satchit says:

      “Buddhas do not trick their female disciples into giving them blow jobs.”

      This you cannot know because you are not a Buddha.

      Maybe it’s a new lineage called the Blow-job-lineage.

      But you should repent that you doubt the “enlightenment” of your ex-Master!

      • Lokesh says:

        Satchit does his usual stupid number by declaring, “This you cannot know because you are not a Buddha.”
        With an attitude like that you will never know anything.

        I must confess that, when it comes to responding to Satchit’s nonsense, I often ask myself why I waste my time on him.

        • Nityaprem says:

          @lokesh who wrote “…why I waste my time on him.”

          Haha. Because he is such a cute, little, Indian-sounding Bavarian? Or have I been totally misinformed?

          But I think we can know a few things about Buddhas. The Buddha stated that everything he said was for the purpose of teaching freedom from suffering.

        • satchit says:

          I know why you waste your time, Loco.

          Because there is a deep longing for understanding in you.

          • Klaus says:

            I think we are here in this Chat because we like to communicate whatever is happening to us.

            And maybe also find out some blind spots or misunderstandings or weird (own) patterns in due course.

            Every now and then somebody is playing the ‘advocatus diaboli’, i.e. taking the opposite stance to a seemingly set common attitude. That’s inspiring! To me.

            I for my part am finding the ping-pong very helpful over all these years.

            Somehow we are a small ‘community of fate’ – like a group of passengers on the same bus for a trip from A to B.

            Keep on ping-ponging.

    • swamishanti says:

      Lokesh chirped:
      “Buddhas do not trick their female disciples into giving them blow jobs. That is bullshit. And it is swallowing that kind of bullshit that lies at the heart of the shambles that represents Sannyas today.”

      Yet woman disciples can really benefit from having blowjobs from a Buddha – historically this has been known in certain Indian esoteric tantric groups as a particularly powerful method of shaktipat transmission. This tradition is much, much older than Buddhism and Christianity.

      I tried to find an old Indian painting I remembered of a dreadlocked sadhu standing in a cremation ground with a woman kneeling in front of him performing fellatio. I can’t remember the exact term, but when I searched I could not find it and it led me to an Indian porn site, where there was a video of an orange-clad sadhu nlaying on top of a woman in some bushes and moving up and down. This was being clandestinely watched and secretly filmed on someone’s phone from a nearby building, until the woman underneath noticed and alerted the guy on top.

      Of course, this can work the other way, too. Some tantricas devotees and disciples can worship the divine vulva, the vulva of the goddess, and this can happen between a male disciple and a female master as a form of meditation.

      • Klaus says:

        This kind of worship led to me becoming the father of a very energetic daughter. I am a very bad nay-sayer.

        With a male guru my not saying: “No, enough of this” led to the handing over of thousands and thousands of lovely EUROs…ahhh, the heck.

        Interestingly, fate willing when I got (more or less) kicked out from my job with a bronze parachute and falling ill at the same time in that year, I received my life’s best income: all financing and expenses covered, no obligations left. Plus early pension at age 50+.

        Nowadays, with my wife and daughter everything is quite balanced: everyone has their own moods and temper and freedom of expression. Thus, nobody is put at a loss compared to the other two.

        “Live and learn”. Lokesh’s fitting statement.

        • Klaus says:

          P.S:
          Contact with the guru (male) is still possible; but I feel so wary of picking up the challenge, currently. I am not up to the struggle. Maybe I will never in this life be up ‘to this struggle’ again.

          If it would indeed be a struggle?
          Maybe find out?
          With enough self-esteem and clear knowing of my own stance?

      • Nityaprem says:

        Swamishanti, you seem obsessed with these esoteric forms of shaktipat. If they are so great, why don’t we have a few, just a few, enlightened female sannyasins? Or even little historical flowerings of great female spirituality around the places where these teachings are held?

        I think it is a load of bullshit made up by randy wannabe-gurus looking for willing female partners.

  18. garima says:

    How about this interpretation:

    Osho wakes up from his deep Samadhi with an apparent sexual desire, the body shows an erection. He is a lazy man, so masturbation is out of the question. In the vast emptiness there appears a thought, a picture of a woman he would like to share this sexual desire with. Still being in this vast emptiness, where everything is happening all by itself, and nobody is doing anything, he summons his caretaker to call and bring this woman to him, in the middle of the night. The woman comes, and complies with his wishes.

    It is cold in the room, and one doesn’t know whether the sexual compliances are happening on the bed or on the cold floor, nor whether Osho appearing as vast emptiness is getting the blowjob standing or sitting up or lying down…This scenario apparently, according to the woman involved, repeats itself over a vast number of occasions…No one knows exactly what happened really, apart from the woman and Osho himself, who has by now totally disappeared in the vast emptiness….

    In the meantime many of his followers are completely gobsmacked by these revelations, their mind cannot deal with it, since it can only think in terms of or-or, it’s impossible for this mind to see that yes, the vast emptiness through the body of Osho is totally ok with wanting and getting blowjobs in the middle of the night in an ice-cold room, and him not wanting the woman “to tell the boyfriend”, emptiness doesn’t care a hoot – or does it?

    Doesn’t it care about the hurt feelings of the woman, and if in emptiness the woman and Osho are one, then Osho must have felt the discomfort of the woman, but didn’t act on it…In my eyes it’s all ok from emptiness, but emptiness is still one side of the coin, the other side, manifestation, is also emptiness in form, and since Osho was that manifestation of emptiness, my conclusion is that he used emptiness as an excuse to let certain things “happen” that were out of order.

    These things might not have disturbed his emptiness, but they certainly disturbed the form of many of his followers…Whether that was a good thing or not, that remains to be seen….

    • Lokesh says:

      Garima’s ‘interpretation’ is pure bullshit based on speculation that has no basis in personal experience. She speaks about emptiness, meanwhile, her head is crammed full of speculative, spiritual mumbo-jumbo that could have been lifted from a subpar Lobsang Rampa novel. Her warped conclusion is that Osho used emptiness as an excuse to let certain things ‘happen’ that were out of order.

      Those certain things did not just happen spontaneously. They happened because Osho wanted them to happen. He gave the orders and explicit instructions and the women were delivered to his room, minus their panties. For a man who claimed to be beyond it all it appears that he was not beyond even the most basic of human instincts. He lived in an air-conditioned cave and behaved no different from any other randy caveman.

      Why is it that, when it comes to calling a spade a spade in their relationship with a guru, people experience so much difficulty in seeing things as they are? The need for myth-building in such instances reaches ridiculous levels of pure fantasy. Why not just accept Osho did what he did, plain and simple, and move on without the need to prop the old boy up with what amounts to a monumental pile of shite?

      • Nityaprem says:

        The thing is, admitting that Osho had sexual desires means his mind and body were still connected to his being, still causing the doing, and perhaps the emptiness was not as empty as he let people think. Maybe his enlightenment was not so complete after all.

        And even further, why couldn’t he content himself with one woman? Why all the mediums? Why getting Vivek and Maitri to do a lesbian love-show for his pleasure? A fever of desire working in that supposedly enlightened brain. I guess now we know why it all had to be secret.

        • swamishanti says:

          @Nityaprem,
          The way I see it is there are several myths about enlightenment. One is that all sexual desire dissapears. This may have come out of traditions of celibacy such as Buddhism, or Jainism, etc.

          More modern enlightened folks have made it clear that the body can feel sexual attraction after enlightenment- Satyam Nadeen wrote that his sex drive actually increased.

          I expect that enlightened folks can easily sit in a cave without any sexual frustration if they need to/choose to, but this doesn’t mean that they have to do this.

          Ultimately. it is only religious conditioning that determines people’s ideas about whether an enlightened one can enjoy sex, who with, and how many, etc.

          Long before Buddhism, enlightened Indian Rishis kept wives and children.
          In some of the tantric traditions sex is accepted and has not been repressed.

        • satyadeva says:

          I see no reason at all that enlightenment and sex are incompatible, as enlightenment surely implies profound love, and the secret of sex is love, isn’t it? Ask any woman if in doubt about this!

          Erin’s experience of extreme disappointment, disillusion perhaps reflects that of many people in far less ‘rarified’ circumstances, well away from Sannyas. No wonder she seems to have given up on men after realising she’s suffered at the hands of the tantric master she regarded as the very incarnation of love.

          • satchit says:

            SD, I think Erin plays a bit the victim.

            And this after this many years.

            She was 25 years, certainly not a helpless child, for example, that was abused by her father.

            I say it again, she could have said “Stop” any time, but she did not.
            Why not? Maybe felt good to be special?

            And later after many years, one starts thinking….

            • Lokesh says:

              Satchit, has it not occurred to you that Erin was a victim?

              • satchit says:

                Lokesh, is your brain still ok? Jokes you don’t get because too serious.

                In your world she is the victim, certainly.

                Has she given up the freedom to choose because of being a sannyasin?

                Is the Ashram a Gulag?

                • satyadeva says:

                  “Has she given up the freedom to choose because of being a sannyasin?

                  Is the Ashram a Gulag?”

                  Erin was a committed disciple who took on board Osho’s dictum, ‘Nothing less than 100% surrender to the Master is required’. You appear to have no conception of what that meant, Satchit, no insight into her situation, her psychology, no empathy, hence not a trace of understanding or compassion.

            • satyadeva says:

              Have you listened to the podcast, Satchit? If not, that should clarify one or two things.

              It’s easy, from the outside, to underestimate the effects of being in a collective energy-field such as surrounded Osho wherever he set up a commune. Look how thousands simply accepted Sheela & co.’s bullshit at the Ranch, believing all was bound to be ok due to Osho’s presence.

              And Erin was an ‘insider’ who lived in Lao Tzu House, chosen by Osho, one of his nine darshan ‘mediums’, a therapist/group leader, one of the ‘privileged’! Of course she felt ‘special’, unbelievably fortunate, she says. And she’d given up a career and prospects of a future inheritance from her wealthy family for Sannyas, in love with Osho, the communal energy, bowled over by the people, on a perpetual ‘high’, she said. And all that after initial reservations, resistance.

              Easy to judge from the outside, not so easy, apparently, to be the person in that situation. Anyway, as I said, take the trouble to listen to her story.

              • satchit says:

                Ok, SD, I can understand that it is special in a collective energy-field.

                Maybe there is no freedom to choose, not for her, not for Sheela, but then also not for Osho.

                Problem is only if one talks retrospectively of “abuse”.
                It did not function with “mistake”, why shall it function with “abuse”.

                Get it?

                • satyadeva says:

                  No, sorry, Satchit, I don’t understand your point, or rather, I completely disagree with you.

                  First, equating the situations of Erin, Sheela and Osho doesn’t hold water. Each of their circumstances was unique, it’s just lazy to lump them together as you’ve done here.

                  And re-assessing one’s past circumstances and actions through a change of perspective, information or consciousness is a perfectly valid function, if approached honestly. By saying otherwise, you’re denying a key human faculty, the growth of intelligence through awareness, which, of course, is part of what Sannyas is all about, isn’t it?!

                  Again, you underestimate the effects of trauma, which can cause the person concerned to want to ‘close down’ part of themselves, to not fully face the implications, the consequences of a deeply upsetting experience as it’s simply too painful to contemplate. That’s why it took Erin so long to truly recognise and accept she’d been ‘abused’. Listen to the podcast and you should understand this clearly.

                • satchit says:

                  Ok, SD, I try once more.

                  Either I say there is free will then people are responsible for their doing.
                  Erin and Osho.

                  Or I say the Buddhafield was so strong that there was no choice, people had to do things.
                  Also Erin and Osho.

                  PS:
                  We can leave it if it’s too complicated.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Have you read my post of 2.26pm, Satchit, which I in fact wrote quite a lot later than that time after initially just saying that I didn’t undersatand what you’d previously said (at 2.12pm)?

                  (By the way, your latest post (3.02pm) is so obviously flawed that I’m surprised you had the nerve to even think about putting it up here! I’m taking a break for a while, see you later!)

              • Nityaprem says:

                SD, that’s how I understand it also. I think Erin has had a moment of clarity and took advantage of that to take stock. It was courageously done. She had friends and acquaintances who she might lose and could make some enemies, but she told her story anyway.

            • Lokesh says:

              Yes, SD, you nailed it as far as Satchit is concerned. He is out of his depth for sure.

      • garima says:

        Emptiness dancing as Lokesh, the great blunt annihilator of SN, never heard of projecting, no sense of humour, doesn’t know how to read between the lines, and very angry, methinks.

        • Lokesh says:

          Garima, you think too much. You haven’t a clue.

          • garima says:

            And neither have you, Lokesh! But mostly you respond to people’s posts by saying you this and you that, often putting the person down in a nasty way, trying to make them feel small, being very sarcastic…hardly ever I see you responding to what is actually written, or saying, I see it differently. I find it hurtful, and I’m pretty sure others do too.

            While I was writing the post, as I wrote it clarified things; I also tried to look at it from different angles, using humour and wanting to look at it from the emptiness/form perspective, and not wanting to be judgemental about it, somehow feeling into the situation. If that’s not your way of expressing things I can understand, but I would prefer that you do not try to make me feel wrong about that.

            • Lokesh says:

              Where you are going wrong, Garima, is in your accusations about me. You state that I have never heard of projecting. Wrong. That I do not know how to read between the lines. Wrong. That I am angry. Wrong. That I lack a sense of humour. Wrong. Whether or not you actually realize you are wrong is none of my business.You addressed me and this is my response

              On the subject of humour, you think you have one. Looks like a warped one to me. Creating a jolly funny joke out of Erin’s bum sexual trip with Osho is not funny, except for idiots like Satchit. You say you wished to approach the subject from a non-judgemental attitude. Old school sannyasin rhetoric that no longer cuts the mustard.

              • garima says:

                Wrong, Lokesh…I didn’t try to make a jolly funny joke out of Erin’s bum sexual trip. That’s your interpretation about my interpretation. And yes, my accusations about you are wrong, just as your accusations and dismissiveness about me and others here on SN are wrong.

    • satchit says:

      Funny interpretation, Garima. I like it.

    • Nityaprem says:

      Seems like bringing in ‘emptiness’ may be unnecessarily complicating things. If he had enough of a mind and being to order women brought to his room for his pleasure, then he certainly had enough to show some consideration.

      • garima says:

        But it all hinges on that, doesn’t it, Nityaprem, whether it all just happened through Osho as a clear channel of emptiness, or consciousness, or whatever you want to call it…or did emptiness bump on some unclear sexual conditioning such as lust and power? Or can an enlightened one behave like an asshole or not?

        According to Adyashanti there are 3 stages of awakening: of the mind, heart and gut…If there is only a mind awakening, and not the heart, there can be situations of abuse, and not taking responsibility for that, cause “it all just happened, there is no doer” sort of thing….Wondering now if Osho felt in that catagory….

        • satyadeva says:

          Osho’s heart ‘unawakened’? That’s a new one, for sure! And I’m not buying into it either.

          • frank says:

            Adyashanti is right. You can have no mind awakening, no heart awakening but still have a knob awakening followed by an emptiness in the testicles.

            Reminds me of when I went down the red light area in Bombay with Swami Bhorat. After a couple of quick blowjobs, the boss came by and asked for payment. Bhorat said, “I am simply emptiness-shagging-in-a-brothel. There is nobody here to make a payment” and skipped out of the window like greased lightning.

            Spiritual philosophy and metaphysics philosophy are the best!
            You can use them to rationalise and get away with anything.

            Yahoo!

            • garima says:

              Haha, Frank…emptiness shagging in a brothel…reminds me of a story of Willem van de Wetering pushing Chogyam Trungpa in a wheelchair along the red light district in Amsterdam, that was after his accident…but he might have said the same thing.

              I also remember a story of an awakened one saying, “It’s really difficult, especially with the women, you just see them as the One, as yourself, and there is this sexual desire, and no control or censoring any longer….

              • frank says:

                Yeah, Garima, I find I have that difficulty too.

                When you know that all is one and it`s all a play of emptiness, there is no difference between sitting quietly at home and watching the garden grow and doing a load of crystal meth, sinking a couple of bottles of saki and a handful ofr Viagra and heading down to the red light area to go uncensored and completely let go of control.

                Like Willem de Wettering and Chogyam Drunkpa, the emptiness inside me just seems get its willy wet and get absolutely plastered.

                I find it`s so hard to express this eternal truth to folks who just haven`t reached the same level.

                I`m glad you understand.

              • Nityaprem says:

                @garima who wrote:
                “I also remember a story of an awakened one saying, “It’s really difficult, especially with the women, you just see them as the One, as yourself, and there is this sexual desire, and no control or censoring any longer…”

                That makes some sense, but then why the celibate image during discourse? I’m still trying to put it together.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  At least in Osho’s case there was some control on his part. Midnight secret meetings instead of darshan sex sessions.

                • satchit says:

                  @NP

                  “darshan sex sessions”

                  Gang Bang parties you find in the Bungabungalore Ashram of old Bhorat.

                • swamishanti says:

                  @Nityaprem

                  Osho did announce that he had “never been celibate” in 1985 at the Ranch and said that he had slept with “hundreds of women”.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  @swamishanti

                  Where did he say this, SS? I’m curious to read the context.

                • swamishanti says:

                  @Nityaprem

                  Some time in 1985 at the Ranch when answering questions about his sex life.

                  Q: HAVE YOU EVER BEEN CELIBATE?

                  A: Right now I am celibate, but if my health gets better I am not going to be celibate. I have never been celibate. I do not do anything against nature. Right now I am celibate, not because celibacy has any value, but just because I am sick. I don’t have any energy to make love to a woman and do all the gymnastics, no. I have enough energy to talk to my people, to talk to you. If I get healthy again, I promise you, I will not be celibate.

                  Q: DON’T PROMISE ME, PROMISE THEM. ALL THESE LADIES ABOUT THE PLACE TELL ME THAT YOU’RE A GREAT LOVER.

                  A: I am!

                  Q: HOW DO THEY KNOW THAT?

                  A: Many of them must have loved me. I must have loved them.

                  Q: DOES THAT MEAN YOU’VE HAD SEX WITH THEM?

                  A: Certainly. How do you love if you don’t have sex with them?

                  Osho – Book: ‘The Last Testament’, Vol 1

                  “Beloved Osho,

                  I have been a sannyasin for one year, and feel like a kangaroo who has to make big jumps to follow you. Today, I was shocked to read that you had said you may not remain celibate when you are healthy again. I thought you had said that an enlightened person has transcended sex. Yet, I know how beautiful it is to make love. Why do I feel so confused?

                  Please comment.”

                  “One always feels confused if one has expectations. Now who told you that enlightened people transcend sex? And immediately you are saying, “…although love is such a beautiful experience.” So why prevent enlightened people from having such a beautiful experience? But the idea has been created down the centuries that the truly religious people are celibate, and particularly that the enlightened person is celibate.”

                  Read more:

                  https://oshoworld.com/osho-on-celibacy/

                • Lokesh says:

                  Osho concludes that talk by saying, “Blessed is the sannyasin who can trust me without bothering about my statements or my actions.”

                  It does not sound at all like you can trust Osho without bothering about his statements…you are constantly quoting them.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  @Lokesh, who quoted Osho saying, “blessed is the sannyasin who can trust me without bothering about my statements or my actions.”

                  I’d say to that, actions speak louder than words, words speak louder than thought. Trust is earned, the world is full of politicians and conmen.

          • swamishanti says:

            I think what Adyashanti is referring to by a ‘mind awakening’ is a satori. Perhaps it happened that way for him. He had a satori, which many confuse with enlightenment, then a heart expansion, then his ‘gut’ awakening was his enlightenment.

            The third chakra is the power centre, the centre of the ego. Osho has said that this third centre, in the belly, has to feel empty if enlightenment has happened. Although this would be only the beginning of enlightenment for him.

            • frank says:

              Guru Shanti,

              That is correct.

              I also find that a good kick up the arse can send the kundalini energy right back up through the chakras and cure a lot of, but sadly not all, cases of premature enlightenment and penile dementia.

            • garima says:

              Correction, Shanti, the belly is the 2nd chakra, all our survival mechanism is there, it’s like a fist, saying no to Life…when the fist lets go, it is seen there was never a fist…or a doer…or enlightenment.

              • swamishanti says:

                Ah, bollox, I’ thought I had managed to get away… Garimo, in my experience of the third centre , the power chakra ,which it is in the belly. This I have felt very strongly in a positive way in various times during my life, especially during certain work I have done, sales and marketing, etc.
                It is centre which is connected with personal power, empowerment, individuality, etc. The centre that successfull politicians are coming from. If it is very open in an individual then that person will be unstoppable and will easily be able to influence others.

                In the British army, those with authority are taught how to speak(or shout, rather), from the belly, rather than the throat, when in command of a unit.

                Ma Anand Sheela is a good example of an empowered woman.

                Those maps , chakra maps, with the seven coloured chakras are not always exactly in the right place, that is because they have been drawn not from experience but rather just parroting some one else’s drawing from thousands of years ago.
                Also precise chakra positions can be different with each individual.
                The second chakra that you are talking about, is usually placed lower down. But I guess that may be the centre that is felt strongly , and I’ve heard there can be a strong physical jerk when the ego is dissolved.

                Ok, that’s it from me then for a while , capiche?

                • Klaus says:

                  Plus not to overlook the chakras in the feet, in the hands, up to the elbow. And at the back of the head.

                  Very impersonal.

                  Alora. Andiamo, ragazze.

                • Klaus says:

                  Don’t want to let you off without this link to

                  David Lindley & Wally Ingramm Live in Basel 2000:
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQo1kU09Hvk

                  54 minutes with oriental touch and western groove.

                  I bet you won’t stop listening – until the end!

                  Dankeschön.

                • garima says:

                  Thanks for the explanation, Shanti…the energy here in the 3rd chakra (just below the ribs) feels very different than the 2nd one, just below the navel….

                • swamishanti says:

                  Yes, @Garima, in some maps the third chakra is higher than the belly which (may) correspond with your experience.

                  Yet in others, it’s only a little above the navel, whereas the second chakra is a little below the navel.

                  So, it may differ with each individual. In my case, my heart experience is very much felt in the chest, which is well known in all cultures to be the area where ‘heartbreak’ is felt.

                  My experience of the third chakra, of power, is very much felt in my belly. And it corresponds with all descriptions of this third body that I have read.

          • garima says:

            Yes, isn’t it, Satyadeva? Hard to believe that a Master of the Heart can do such a callous thing.

          • Lokesh says:

            Osho declares he was a great lover. I do not know because I never had sex with him. Was Osho gay?
            That said, from several reports I have read over the past couple of years by women who did have sex with Osho, by all accounts there was nothing great about his approach to sex at all. No foreplay, just a wham bam and not even a thank you, mam…it was all over very quickly…next.

        • Nityaprem says:

          @garima

          Can you believe that a “clear channel of consciousness” can ask two women who don’t love each other to have sex in front of you, knowing that you have the authority of a spiritual leader and that they would probably obey, and use that to satisfy some desire (otherwise why do it at all)? That was in Erin’s letter, it happened. It seems to me that that is some hang-up of the unenlightened mind, lust and power as you say.

          What that makes Osho is a difficult question. In the Tibetan Buddhist world he’d be stripped of his Rinpoche title, like what happened to Sogyal. If you compare him to Ramana, to the best of my knowledge Ramana stayed celibate. Poonjaji had a normal wife, and they lived together.

          But Osho forged his own path.

          • Klaus says:

            NP

            Just a little information from the wikipedia:

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._W._L._Poonja

            “At the end of 1968 Poonja met in Rishikesh Geneviève de Coux (born 1947) — later known as Ganga Mira — a young Belgian seeker, who became his disciple and with whom he would form a new family, after the ancient Vedic polygamic tradition. Their daughter Mukti was born in 1972.”

            Eastern boys & Western girls.

          • swamishanti says:

            Osho was very inspired by visiting the Khajuraho temples, encouraged also by his Nani. Looking at the carvings and images such as these. Threesomes and foursomes.

            MOD:
            “Nani”, Shanti? (Grandma?!)

          • satchit says:

            The question is:

            Do you think Osho is an ordinary voyeur or is there another reason, and what could this be?

            • garima says:

              I remember Madhuri writing in her book, ‘Mistakes on the Path’, that the first time she saw Osho, she tried to give him a hug, he felt as cold as an iceberg…imo he was the ultimate voyeur.

            • Nityaprem says:

              @ Satchit

              Sadly, I think that Osho has given us his own answer, by making these meetings so deeply secret.

              Any attempt by us to “find another reason” is only playing with words and ideas. We don’t really know.

              • satchit says:

                @NP

                “We don’t really know.”

                Fact is, I know.

                Because you are the only one who tried to answer and I don’t want that all these idiots here jump on me again, at least I give you a hint.

                Ever heard of ‘surrender’?

                • Klaus says:

                  Obedience ain’t surrender.

                • Klaus says:

                  Satchit,

                  Interesting stance on other people’s views making them “idiots”.

                  Man, I never called you this.

                  I have a faint feeling that he might have had a ‘hangover’ from unfulfilled Kajuraho fantasies.

                  Surrender coming or going.

                • satchit says:

                  But Klaus,

                  You are an exception, you are not an idiot.

                  It is not the first time that Osho played the sex card for surrender.

                  I remember first time meeting Sheela he wanted to see her tits.

                • Klaus says:

                  No need to worry about me. That’s my job.

                  No need to go low, it is only views and opinions. No rewards there, imo.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Surrender is basically an “I dare you to go further.”

                  Any sensible person will reply, “I surrender until it no longer suits me.”

  19. satchit says:

    Just one question, SD:

    Had Erin the freedom to say No? Yes or No?

    • satyadeva says:

      You’re someone who likes everything perfectly cut-and-dried, Satchit, who can’t stand ambiguities, complexities, shades of grey. Life often works differently though, in case you haven’t noticed yet.

      I suggest you re-read my earlier post (2.26pm) where I wrote about the effects of trauma and Erin’s particular situation. Then you might realise that the answer to your question is both Yes (in theory) and No (in real life).

  20. So much expectation that turns into judgments…Commonplaces against commonplaces. Manipulative Indians vs. naive American Zionist high bourgeoisie.

    • Klaus says:

      Veet Francesco

      I am not so sure. I call maybe.

      In the podcast the male moderator made this statement – citation from memory approx.:

      “In any organisation lead by some figurehead sooner or later the organisation takes on the personality of the leader. This accounts for any organisation.”

      To me, this sounds quite valid. Looking back at more than thirty years of professional experience in different sectors of the business world: there is some kind of streamlining going on – and most of the participants in my personal observation – IMPO – do not find the courage to speak out. Or quite decisively leave the plot.

      There are certainly very acceptable personal reasons for this.
      But on the other hand there are also limitations in the personality for not being able to do so.

      Love it. Change it. Or leave it.

      • Nityaprem says:

        @Klaus who cited:
        “In any organisation led by some figurehead sooner or later the organisation takes on the personality of the leader.”

        That’s an interesting statement when applied to the commune, isn’t it? The commune exhibits lovely aesthetics, meditative sense, high ideals, a competitive streak and some craziness in the leadership…

        But it didn’t take very good care of its children, as we’ve noticed. As Erin also says in the podcast, it’s crazy for there to be this focus on the New Man, and then this strong policy of not having kids, sterilisation, almost neglect of the children that were there.

        • Klaus says:

          @Nityaprem

          I once read an account of a Ma who observed a young boy child walking around the road construction sites on the Oregon project. Just with some pampers on, in the mud, among the trucks running back and forth. She stated she wondered that the boy did not get killed by the trucks.

          To me, this is certainly neglect. No love, no awareness, no attention, no mindfulness, no heart,
          no patience to take time out to care.
          Fracking unbelievable.

          This story still gets me as now I am a father, too, and can feel the explosion and expansion of my heart.

          What a trip. How many mistakes.

          My view.

  21. garima says:

    Nityaprem, from the mind I wanted to give Osho the benefit of the doubt, also it’s true what Lokesh said that I haven’t got a clue about an incident that happened 30 years ago between 2 people, and I wasn’t even there…So it’s just a story, but because it involved Osho and womanhood, more feelings are surfacing now.

    Also seeing more clearly that my investment and projections about Osho, although I’d like to think he’s not my teacher any longer, apparently are still there. But up till now I hadn’t really realized on a gut feeling level how devastating it must have been, especially for a woman, to be betrayed by her master in that way. I imagine it must have felt like rape. That’s already horrendous, but if it is by a master you trust, it must feel a thousandfold so.

    • Lokesh says:

      Garima, now you are talking. Good post.

      • frank says:

        Just want to throw in another view that has been bypassed.

        In the pro/anti guru outbreak, no one here has really considered that Erin might be making it up or at least decorating. What is the evidence?

        After all, she spent a long time in a cult, and stayed in the satsang subcult scene for some decades after Osho died. Now she has fallen in with the anti-cultists. The site that podcast Erin`s podcast is on, ‘A Little Bit Culty’, takes a pretty hardcore, committed anti-cult stance based on the work of Janja Lalich who is an “expert on cults”.

        What is to say that Erin hasn`t developed a lifelong habit of going with the crowd and saying stuff accordingly? And that the anti-cultists are just the latest cult/forceful ideology that she has been taken in by?

        If this was a legal investigation, for example, corroborating evidence would be needed to raise her letter from the level of unfounded allegation to something more substantial.

        Is that available?

        • Klaus says:

          The incriminated person cannot protect himself now. He also cannot make any (criminal) claims against these statements, afaik.

          With Americans, I very, very, very often give them “the benefit of the doubt” as I very, very often find it quite difficult to see the message through the marketing.

          Clipped from google:
          “Meet the Board and Staff – Main Site – Gangaji.org
          https://gangaji.org/about-gangaji/meet-the-board-and-staff

          Suman was a founding board member of the Gangaji Foundation in 1992, along with Maitri (Erin Robbins), Shivayama (Sally Ruane) and Gangaji. Over the years Suman has filled other volunteer roles at the Foundation, but rejoined as a member of the Board of Directors in 2016.”

          Still there is disillusionment with the happenings.
          Which I think is a good thing to happen to everyone.

        • Lokesh says:

          Frank, that does not ring true.

          All of Osho’s hanky-panky went on behind closed and guarded doors. Unusual for Osho there was little in the way of witnessing. It was all very hush-hush. After all, Osho was breaking one of the cardinal rules of gurudom….having sex with his female disciples. Many a guru’s rep has been broken on the wheel of sexual misconduct…not that Osho really gave a fuck about his reputation…but it would have been bad for business and he cared about that off and on.

          The extent of the secrecy surrounding Osho’s late-night chakra adjusting sessions is really quite remarkable. A couple of years back I had a chat with a friend who lived in Osho’s house for several years, both in Poona and Oregon. My friend told me that in all the years that they lived and worked in Osho’s house they did not once see a suspicious female entering Osho’s quarters. Strange but true.

          By current estimates, Osho had a lot of nocturnal visitors. I knew one of the women in question and she was highly attractive, ‘Playboy’ centrefold material. Osho had good taste when it came to drive-by selection time.

          • swamishanti says:

            @Lokesh, you put:
            “After all, Osho was breaking one of the cardinal rules of gurudom….having sex with his female disciples…”

            I have heard this kind of line put forth by moralists before and it simply isn’t true. At all.

            The truth is that no guru has to follow the expectations of any other guru who has preceded him, nor the expectations of the society.

            But the fact is that even at the famous sculptures of the Khujaraho temples which Osho was well known to admire and visited many times as a young man, there are scenes depicting a guru surrounded by a sex scene: looks like an orgy.

            I have personally seen that particular image and many others, also at the temple at Konark where there are many beautiful erotic sculptures.

            Tantrics are often ostracised by mainstream society, yet you will find gurus having sex with female disciples is a very, very ancient thing.

            The point is that this idea that moralists like to believe is true, these ‘rules’ that a guru should not be allowed to have sex with his disciples, or only under certain conditions, have been created by religions long after the death of the founder.

            There are no such golden rules printed anywhere – only the rules made by gurus themselves.
            Sometimes spiritual groups such as ISKCON – the Hari Krishnas – believe in absolute celibacy and take a moralistic stance on sex, believing themselves to be far above everyone else; typical moralistic ego sickness trip.

            Yet it is ironic that Krishna himself is depicted as enjoying sex with thousands of women, and enjoying watching them naked just for his pleasure. Which is accepted by his devotees too. Sri Krishna is considered as the supreme personality in India.

            • Lokesh says:

              Yes, Guru Shanti, I know all the above info. Osho was not Krishna and I am not a moralist. That said, I was speaking in general when I said, “Osho was breaking one of the cardinal rules of gurudom….having sex with his female disciples.”

              Often the unwritten rules are more sacrosanct than the written ones. You want to believe Osho was just like Krishna: be my guest. Hari Rama.

              • swamishanti says:

                @Lokesh

                Osho was not Krishna – although there are certain similarities. He danced like Krishna and loved to play with women, multiple women, like Krishna.

                Osho was also not a total pacifist, like Krishna.

                • frank says:

                  Shanti,
                  Krishna, in the Bhagavad Gita, says to Arjuna on the battlefield:
                  “If you will not fight this righteous war, then you will fail in your duty, lose your reputation, and incur sin. People will talk about your disgrace forever.”

                  How is this pacifism?

                • swamishanti says:

                  @Frank, I meant that like Krishna, Osho wasn’t a total pacifist.
                  Krishna encouraged Arjuna to fight in the war.

                  Those lines you quoted may be there in those books now. But those parts about sin, disgrace, etc. have likely been added to the script later…by moralists.

            • Nityaprem says:

              I feel early exposure to things like Khujaraho is like early exposure to porn, it can educate the sexual centre in the wrong way and create unhealthy expectations.

              • swamishanti says:

                I visited Khajuraho several times. I found the sculptures and the temple structures impressive.

                I also visited the temple at Konark which has some very impressive artwork in the form of erotic sculptures. I found the statues beautiful and to me they demonstrated a healthy attitude towards sex. I would not compare them to porn.

                So I have quite different ideas to you.

                In fact, I would probably think it was a good idea to send young men and women to the temples to study the sculptures.

                Here is a bust from the Konark sun temple:

        • garima says:

          You could ask Osho some info about that, Frank…he was the witness. From what I heard he’s last seen hanging out in the Khajuraho bardo….

          • frank says:

            I`m mildly surprised that the defence of Osho here has been along the lines of “an enlightened one can do what he wants” rather than attempt to discredit the story. I guess that`s quite telling.

            Garima,
            I`ve been conducting some enquiries in the bardo and it seems that Osho had plenty of previous and an Akashik record as long as your arm.

      • garima says:

        Thank you, Lokesh…these things happen when you get out of bed on the wrong foot, apparently.

    • Nityaprem says:

      Yes, Garima, I definitely understand. I’ve given Osho the benefit of the doubt for a long time, but Erin sounds to me like a pretty reliable witness, and this whole affair raises doubts about how far one could really trust a man who does these things. I find it difficult to make up my mind.

      • garima says:

        Nityaprem, yes,it drives the mind crazy…good or bad, for or against…I only got some clarity through feeling my own pain relating to it. And that’s all I know really, the rest is all speculation and interpretation.

        • Klaus says:

          Yes, Garima, that is were I find acceptance, too:
          What are my reactions? To already known plus new info.
          Then I feel it settles, but may change again….

          • Nityaprem says:

            Well then, my core reaction is this: I’ve always been of the opinion that sex is where men and women are most sensitive, and that it should be treated with respect and care. I can’t fathom any enlightened being doing what Osho did.

        • Nityaprem says:

          Swamishanti said above that “Osho’s very being was love” but I wonder how that could be if he treats the women he has sex with like this. It isn’t my understanding of love, he never seems to get beyond lust. It will take me some time to find clarity, I think.

  22. Lokesh says:

    Guru Shanti, seeing how you are obviously into info dumping, here is some more, courtesy of Joel Kramer. It does not represent my views, just someone else’s valid opinion, in my opinion.

    Having sex with one’s disciples, whether secretly or openly, is a real betrayal of trust because:

    1) The guru is putting his own needs and pleasures first, which is an exploitation. “Honouring” a disciple with sex is a form of unabashed dominance — how can a disciple refuse who is committed to serve and obey?

    2) Rewarding women for their sexuality taps into and reinforces deep lines of conditioning in them. Traditionally, women’s power has been related to sex. So women, especially the good-looking ones gurus seem to choose, generally have deep patterns that link their power and self-worth into their sexuality. Gurus, like fathers, are in a context that gives them enormous power because of their disciples’ needs, trust, and dependency.

    One reason incest is a betrayal of trust is that what a daughter needs from her father is a sense of self-worth not specifically linked to her sexuality. Sex with a guru is similarly incestuous because a guru ostensibly functions as a spiritual father to whom one’s growth is entrusted. Having sex with a parental figure reinforces using sex for power. This is not what young women (or men) need for their development. And when the guru drops them, which eventually he does, feelings of shame and betrayal usually result that leave deep scars.

    3) Sexuality with disciples (whether overt or covert) sets up hierarchies of preference where disciples compete for status through who is attracting the guru. If covert, it also creates lies and secrecy among disciples.

    • satchit says:

      Fact is, you betray yourself with this crap, Loco.
      Remember, you and the Master are one.

    • swamishanti says:

      Well, I don’t agree, Lokesh. If applied, those ideas take us into a moral structure where the guru is expected to remain celibate.

      You can have rules such as the guru is only allowed to have sex with his/her wife/husband, but why should the wife not also be the disciple of the guru?

      And if you create rules where only marriage is allowed, which may satisfy some religions, are you going to be expecting the guru to be allowed only one wife, or are they allowed to have multiple wives as in certain religious traditions?

      Who would be making all of these rules?

      Osho publicly declared that he was not celibate when asked by a reporter in the US in 1985, saying that he had “slept with hundreds of women”. He was prone to exaggeration, especially with numbers, yet sannyasins have known about this since 1985, and have had their choice whether to remain with Osho or move onto another path.

      They have known about the collection of Rolls Royces since the Ranch; many people left for various reasons, things they didn’t like.

      Osho had sex with some of his sannyasins, which he was open about, even when asked by the world press.
      Other gurus/teachers may decide not to do this, or to remain monogamous.

      You clearly don’t like of lot things about the way Osho lived his life.
      Why not just choose another guru?

      Moralists always make the mistake that other people need their ideas and guidance how to behave and believe that they are so important that their own views are going to influence others’ behaviour in the future.

      This isn’t the case. People don’t need these types of people to tell them how to behave, they can make up their own minds on how they want to live and what they expect from a particular guru or a teacher.

      What I actually appreciate about Osho is, that he didn’t give any rules, he left his people to make their own decisions about how to live.

      I will now be away for while from SN so please don’t reply after tonight otherwise you may be deleted.

    • Nityaprem says:

      Largely agree with Joel Kramer on this, I don’t think it is a healthy pattern.

  23. garima says:

    Lokesh,

    Also what comes up is that according to some women who were close to him, saying that he was hammering again and again that the main obstacle for women to get “enlightened” is their neediness, relationship being the strongest.

    And I know this is a hypothesis, but just imagine these sex session could have been a kind of learning for the women. From their side, there is a neediness for the guru, they want to merge with him, but all they get is cold sex in the middle of the night, that’s a kind of cold turkey for neediness, maybe not realized at the time, but years and years later as in Erin’s case – cruel perhaps, but I can imagine in her case she will never want to play that master-disciple game again.

    • frank says:

      Garima,
      Clandestine sex sessions in the middle of the night involving lesbian shows and blow jobs as an enlightened cure for neediness?

      What planet are you on?

      • garima says:

        Planet earth, Frank, same as you. I presume you disagree with the hypothesis? You could just simply say so…

        So far your reactions have been judgement of the whole guru-trip, wrapped in a humourous fashion, and doubting if Erin’s story is perhaps not true. I like to look at the story from different angles as a woman, and perhaps a bit more nuanced than from your position as a man….

        • Lokesh says:

          Garima, Frank has moved on in life, experimenting with other gurus, like Sid the Sexist, the Fat Slags and, of course, Roger Melly, the man on the telly. He is an avid reader of the holy scriptures as interpreted by Viz Comics, although not as enlightened as Satchit, or Guru Shanti for that matter.

          • garima says:

            Yeah, Lokesh, we all play our roles perfectly in this SN show. Frank is perfect in his hilarious, vulgar, outrageous, comic way…Lokesh is perfect in his: I know best, and you’re a piece of shit, and writing interesting anecdotes way. Garima is perfect in trying to control, correct and advise this unruly SN crowd. Nityaprem is perfect in his honest, thoughtful way of looking at things. Satchit is perfect in his being simple, short, and to the point. Klaus is perfect by being considerate, careful, and a bit intellectual sometimes…Swamishanti and Satyadeva are just perfect…Madhu is perfect in her vulnerability and power….

            • Klaus says:

              Garima,

              Lovely characterisation, to me.

              Everyone being a bit ‘overboard’ in his or her own way brings in the fire required (?). Question mark as this might not be real English….

              That’s the problem with words: one can never get “the full picture” plus the idea behind across….

              • garima says:

                Yes, Klaus, isn’t it miraculous that I have never seen you as a person, but only virtual like this, and still there is a kind of energy, vibe, communication? It’s not real, is it? And would it be more real if we met in person?

            • Lokesh says:

              Garima, check your facts before you make accusations. In the many years I’ve been commenting on SN, I have never once called anyone “a piece of shit”.

              • garima says:

                No, not in those words, Lokesh, but more disguised as verbal abuse in a sarcastic, funny sort of way. It always feels to me as if you are trying to belittle certain persons here on SN, like Satchit, Swamishanti, Arpana, Madhu, and myself. You are very good with words, but imo you often use them as a weapon, and I always wonder what your motivation is, and why you can’t just say to somebody that you don’t agree with their point of view, and explain why.

                The same applies for myself of course, I notice that mostly my reactions to you are also often on the attack, as a way to defend myself and show my boundaries. So in that way you are a good trigger to come up for myself….

                • Klaus says:

                  When I started here on the blog I got shocked, too.

                  Then I realised that actually I had to look at my own reactions, feelings and attitudes: I saw that in the beginning here I was a simplistic person, simple minded, naive, feeling smallish towards the more experienced, straightforward, encounter-trained persons here.

                  Interestingly I never felt insulted or put down.

                  To me, it is a learning situ7ation.

                  Plus information gathering, too, as more people know and saw more things.

                  Perfectly imperfect. Or the other way round.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Garima says, “I always wonder what your motivation is.”

                  I have a confession to make. I am motivated by amusement, fun, enjoyment and enlightentertainment. I know it’s evil, but I just can’t help myself. I blame it on Osho’s bad influence.

                  I have only one rule about writing on SN. I never ever write from a place of anger in myself.

                  I do not need to belittle Satchit because he does a good job of belittling himself already. Guru Shanti is okay, but I am not fond of all that esoteric tripe he posts and I do not find him as clear as he imagines himself to be. I think he is a gentle guy and that is certainly a plus in my books. Arpana is very confused. Madhu means well but she is a few chappatis short of a talli.

                  Next…

                  Oh! I almost forgot. I think you might have been a kid in Poona One. Maybe slightly older than my son, who is 51 and spent a few years in Poona One. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I estimate your age to be 53. Your posts are in general readable, and you do have something worthwhile to say, although you do come across as a bit wooly headed from time to time. Judgements, I know, but we need judgements to create a rational exchange. I hope you stick around. You are a welcome addition to the regulars on SN.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  @Lokesh

                  Oh dear. I may be your kryptonite. I’m a very unfun, straightforward kind of person. Very little humour.

                • Lokesh says:

                  NP, krptonite! I’m no Superman so no problem there. As Donovan sings in ‘Sunshine Superman’…
                  “Superman or Green Lantern ain’t got a-nothin’ on me
                  I can make like a turtle and dive for your pearls in the sea, yeah!”

                  A Dutchman who has little in the way of a sense of humour? I doubt it. You’re probably a Tommy Cooper fan. Next you will be telling me you don’t have a beard.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  @Lokesh

                  I lived in England so long I like ‘Monty Python’ more than André van Duin! And you’re right, I do have a beard…bit of a love-hate relationship…occasionally I shave it off, only to grow it again.

                • Lokesh says:

                  NP, do you sing Johnny Jordan songs in your sleep?

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Now would you mean Johnnie Jordan or Johnny Jordaan?

                  I have a decent but sadly undeveloped singing voice, I meant to get some singing lessons a few years ago but then the pandemic struck and singing was out.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Musical interlude — heeere’s Johnny!

                  https://youtu.be/nsEBq0iGqN8

            • Lokesh says:

              Johnny Jordaan, of course. You know the dead guy who has a bronze sculpture of his noggin in Amsterdam’s Elandsgracht. There’s a flower box in my window…la la la and all that shit.

          • frank says:

            Garima,
            In theory, anything can be a learning situation, however strange, for sure.
            But it sounds to me like you`re still hanging onto the idea of Osho doling out `teachings` while having his cock sucked to a Khajuraho floorshow.

            Sounds bonkers to me.

            But then, as Lokesh points out, I`m not as enlightened as Shanti and Satchit.

            Thank bog.

            • garima says:

              Forgive me, Frank, for not being black-and-white about the whole thing. But I’ve heard Osho say that he’ll do anything to wake us up, out of the make-believe trance. So imo it’s either a case of that, or he was just a dirty old pervert…well, here we go, white or black….

              Thank bog? Who is bog?

              • frank says:

                Garima,

                I never said he was “a dirty old pervert”. Those are your words.

                He was a guy from a culture where pretty much the only form of casual sex available was down the red light. He became a guru. Western girls showed up. He wanted a piece of the action and did what he felt he needed to, which was to use his position to do it on the quiet on his own terms and stay in control. It doesn`t sound particularly dirty. But it does sound self-serving, exploitative and not very pleasant for the girls, as the stories reveal. That`s it.

                I find the idea that he was launching his custard into attractive young women`s mouths for someone`s enlightenment to be a mixture of cultish brainwashing and grooming as well as, I have to admit, darkly comic.

                • garima says:

                  Just suppose, Frank, imagine that you could have been Maitri, you are creative, so that must be easy…what would you have done in her circumstances?

                • Nityaprem says:

                  @frank who said: “but it does sound self-serving, exploitative and not very pleasant for the girls.”

                  Yeah…and can you trust a guru who displays these properties to guide you spiritually? That for me is the key question. If he doesn’t have the best interests at heart of the women who he is involved with, will he have your best interests at heart when considering your spiritual evolution?

                • frank says:

                  Garima, you ask me: “imagine that you could have been Maitri, you are creative, so that must be easy…what would you have done in her circumstance?”

                  Actually, it`s not easy, and not just because I lack the vital organs and the hair. Indeed, any imagination that I could have been her and dealt with it differently/better would not only be unrealistic but most probably also an unhelpful stance vis-a-vis the situation.

                  It`s hard to see myself in her situation for various reasons, like that by the time Osho asked her to leave her pants at the door along with her mind, she was already living in a world that I don`t see myself ever having fitted into.

                  I imagine she was ambitious to make it in the spiritual world. Most likely the ambition was instilled in her from a young age, coming from a very high achieving, no doubt pushy, rich and famous family. She most likely transferred that ambition onto spiritual achievement. She was at uni/college and looking for a world to get into when she met Osho. Get in with the boss. Become a therapist. Become someone on the scene. Retain an elite self-image. Plus, she had the cash behind her. All these factors along with her pretty face would have made her an obvious target for someone with big plans and a pent-up libido.

                  I wouldn`t have been the right kind of actor with the right kind of life script for the role. It sounds more like `Dallas` whereas I probably would have slotted better into something like `Down and Out in Beverly Hills`.

                  It is well documented and understood these days that guys who initiate manipulative relationships have a nose for finding the suitable people as their marks or victims. I hope these aren`t too strong words for this situation but I`m not sure how else to say it. They zero in easily and instinctively on those with whom their ploy will work. Like the classic mafia “offer you can`t refuse”, the ploy includes elements of fear and coercion along with a suitcase of goodies relating to exactly what the victim desires (and of course, Omerta). In this case, not used notes, but enlightenment, closeness to the master, standing in the community, kudos etc.

                  Maybe later, he had such cosmic power in the eyes of all involved that he didn`t really need to screen for the right people, in a similar way that in his pomp, Sai Baba’s magic tricks were actually pretty poorly executed (as seen on Youtube) which went unnoticed as he already had the crowd enthralled with the much more powerful magic of unconditional adulation.

                  Whatever the case, the reality is probably that by the time she showed up at his door, the die was cast.

                  Are there any stories of women who got that far but turned back saying “Nah…” or telling him to go fuck himself? I think there was one woman who said she recoiled and wasn`t invited again. Maybe that would be about as good an escape as possible under the circumstances.

                • frank says:

                  @NP
                  Yes, I know what you mean.
                  “Would you buy a used Zen stick from this guy?” kind of thing.

                • Klaus says:

                  Frank
                  26 May, 11.00 am

                  That to me seems to cover it not only quite well, but very well.

  24. Lokesh says:

    Everyone knows Osho declared he was not a celibate. He made no secret of it. That is not the point. Comparing Osho to Krishna is pure nonsense. For a start, Osho did not have blue skin. It is difficult enough to believe Jesus actually existed, let alone some blue-skinned god tooting on a flute 5000 years ago in India to attract the local milkmaids for a milk shake.

    The lengths people are going to in order to prove Osho was some kind of enlightened Buddha, Avatar or master of masters, totally beyond it all etc., has reached absurd proportions and it has reached that point because many sannyasins have a huge investment in Osho being special, which in turn makes them feel special. They are not.

    Sheela was a nut job, but I do appreciate the fact that she came out with the truth and declared Osho to be an ordinary man. Osho himself declared he was an ordinary man many times, but the party faithful with their huge emotional investment in Osho being really special did and do not want to believe it. Being an ordinary man opens the door of possibility to Osho doing ordinary things, like having sex with his female disciples because of the power he had over them. Unlike Jesus, he yielded to temptation. A pretty ordinary thing to do. Ultimately, it is a moral question.

    I see the situation for what it is. None of this had anything to do with the man I hung out with back in the seventies. When it all boils down I remember him as an utterly amazing man. Most of the people writing on SN never actually met Osho. Never experienced his remarkable vibe close up. Never smelled that mysterious balm he used. Wish I knew where to buy a bottle. They never heard him address them by name. Never shared a laugh with him, except when they were an anonymous face in a sea of people. In other words they did not know him at all. Not in the slightest. Of course they will smooth that problem out with wishy-washy shite about their special connection with the master. It was a communion of the heart etc. Sweet dreams are made of this. Dream on.

    • satchit says:

      Ok, Lokesh, finally you come to your senses again.

      How can such a man with intelligence do such dirty things that woman talked about?

      Seems you trusted her more than your Master.

      Maybe the whole thing is a matter of trust-test.
      Do you doubt or do you trust?

      Certainly, Krishna and Osho is the same on the level of consciousness. Only the expression is different.

      Btw, even Zenmasters made love with their female disciples.

      • Nityaprem says:

        I don’t particularly care what Krishna or unspecified “Zenmasters” were doing. Those are largely mythological persons, little better than someone’s dreams.

        But Osho was someone I sat in front of and considered a spiritual teacher. I hold him to a higher standard than ordinary sannyasins who notched a few hundred sexual partners.

        The main thing is, I see no love in his approach to women, no respect in his sexuality, no appreciation of motherhood. It’s as if there is only room for the emotional bond with the master.

        For me and for a few other sannyasins I know, Erin’s letter and podcast have marked a turning point in how we see Osho. It’s been the thing we couldn’t ignore.

        • satchit says:

          Yes, Nityaprem, I can understand that it is a turning point.

          Either your trust goes deeper or you have to say goodbye to Osho. Here you are and others.

          But you should remember, it’s you who chooses doubt instead of trust, nobody else.

          Would be good if Arpana would be here with a few quotes, for example with something like, “real trust cannot be betrayed.”

          Anyway it is how it is.

          • Nityaprem says:

            I don’t know if I will ever say goodbye to him, exactly. He was a big part of my childhood. But trust him? Certainly I will look a lot closer at what he says, and test his teachings far more carefully.

            • Klaus says:

              I had a similar reaction regarding the books, words and teachings:

              “Is it really that intelligent? Is it practicable? Does it really fit me?”

              As you wrote to me in a previous comment, it is quite easy and natural to be (a little bit imprecise) in our daily life’s runnings…Life is life – and not a segregated and deeply immersed retreat situation.

      • Lokesh says:

        Satchit comments from the locked ward in the home for the spiritually challenged: “Certainly, Krishna and Osho is the same on the level of consciousness. Only the expression is different.”

        Obviously the anti-psychotic meds. Satchits’s been prescribed by Doctor Chopra are not having the desired effect. His delusions are getting worse. He does not know what level of consciousness he is on let alone mythological characters like Krishna, who supposedly lived 3500 years ago and is portrayed in various perspectives: a god-child, a prankster, a model lover, a divine hero, and as the universal supreme being.

        Satchit thinks Krishna is just like Osho although their expression is different, for example, golden chariots being replaced by luxury cars, gopi girls replaced by unwitting female disciples who have been duped into believing Osho would adjust their chakras when really all the man wanted was a bit of sexual relief from the tedium of living in isolation on a pedestal.

  25. “Absorb what is useful, discard what is not, add what is uniquely your own.” ~ Bruce Lee.

    I absorbed much from Osho that I found to be useful, knowledge of what he may have (or not) done with female sannyasins is no use to me so I discard it, these days I prefer to work anything needed out for myself.

    • Nityaprem says:

      @swami anand anubodh, who wrote, “I absorbed much from Osho that I found to be useful.”

      That is certainly true, a lot of what Osho said was original, refreshing, and useful. I won’t dispute that, and I am grateful to him for it. But that is a case of testing the teachings, as the Buddha would say.

      These days, I am finding less and less of what is truly useful in his discourses. I know most of the anecdotes, some of the jokes are beginning to sound familiar…I was a little bit over halfway through the complete set of audio discourses.

      But the trust question – aye, there’s the rub.

      • garima says:

        Nityaprem, isn’t it about trusting yourself, your intuition, Existence? I know from myself as long as there is a distrust in all three, or one or two of them, I start clinging to an outside authority, be it a guru, teacher, or spiritual books. Thankfully, it’s getting less and less, and bit by bit trusting that this is it…no way out, neither through a guru, nor spiritual experiences….

        • Nityaprem says:

          Thanks, Garima, that’s pretty good advice. Some time ago I found a quote by Basho, which said, “Do not follow in the footsteps of the wise; instead, seek what they sought.” I liked it, it speaks to not following blindly, but achieving the same high goals consciously.

          But I think reason and introspection have a role to play also. Intuition is all very well but it can sometimes lead you a merry chase up the wazoo….

    • frank says:

      Anubodh,
      Yeah, I guess, in the end it all depends on how much skin anyone has in the game.

      • Klaus says:

        Skin in the game. True.
        When we attach our goodselves to a spiritual teacher/guru, we attach ourselves to non-attachment. Finally.

        Now, I feel that everybody should be in a position to have as much sex as they need. Or even want. Ok.
        Who am I to try and regulate the (sex) life of others?

        In relationships including topdogs and underdogs one should (haha: like in the Bible “Thou shalt not….”, then almost everybody does it) be aware of the power differential.
        And in my view respect it: either the topdog having enough sensitivity and self-restraint or the underdog taking an unhindered clear stance, i.e. take the freedom and courage to address the situation.

        Clarity. That is possible what one can glean from these situations.

        Cheers.

        • Klaus says:

          In the afternoon, I have read through some facebook posts dated end of April to 8th May 2022 regarding the “grooming of and having sex with minors in Poona and Oregon”….

          Therefore, I want to add to my above last comment regarding the “awareness and respecting of an existing power differential” and the “underdog taking an unhindered stance etc.” is clearly meant for ___adults of legal age__.

          UnHoly cow.

  26. garima says:

    This whole thing has become a bit like an enlightenment intensive: Who is Osho, who is Maitri? Who am I in all this? Ultimately, Life has no meaning, there are just moment to moment happenings; the meetings between Maitri and Osho were like that, but they got stored in Maitri’s memory, and became a story, she shared that story and now it’s also becoming my/our story, but the question is: am I my story?

    • Nityaprem says:

      One from Jiddu Krishnamurti: “truth is a pathless land”.

    • satyadeva says:

      Yes, Garima, but if events, behaviour, interactions are repetitious, follow a pattern, it’s hardly surprising if they “become a story”, which may be used as evidence to make a case, is it?

      • garima says:

        Satyadeva,
        Yes, if we repeat stories of behaviour, events,and interactions long enough, there is always a danger to become entangled/identified with them. It’s bad enough if I believe my own story, but do I want to be saddled with a story that happened 30 years ago, and is really none of my business…unless it triggers something in me of course, and then it is my business to see it for what it is?

        • satyadeva says:

          Garima,
          I was emphasising that repetitious events, behaviour, interactions are themselves almost inevitably bound to become a ‘story’, and if seen negatively, a ‘case’, a catalogue of injustice, simply due to happening often.

          As for this story that happened 30-40-plus years ago, if it didn’t ‘trigger something’ in us, that might indicate indifference, a lack of connection to Osho – or a concept of a Master based on a belief in his infallibilty.

          However, Anubodh’s pragmatic stance (May 25, 12.18pm) might just be the wisest option: take what you find useful, ditch the rest – and trust yourself. Probably not for those of a devotional persuasion though.

          • satchit says:

            SD,

            I think the main question is:

            Do you believe that there is some stable enlightened consciousness possible?

            Only if you say No, you can talk about cunning or power-trips of gurus like Frank does.

            • Klaus says:

              Satchit,

              I believe or dream that it is possible.

              But then, one will still be in the world and there will be actions and exchanges. With whatever happenings and consequences.

              Is there suffering? Question: Who is suffering?
              Is there anger? Question: Anger towards myself or some other person? Or only anger?

              Same for sadness etc.
              No division of me vs. anger vs. another person.

            • satyadeva says:

              I’ve no idea from my own experience of course, Satchit, and let’s face it, direct experiential knowledge is one thing, while a belief is just a belief – “for fools”, as BL used to say.

              All I can say is that I’ve heard from a few teachers (Krishnamurti, Eckhart Tolle, Barry Long and others) that ‘enlightened awareness’ is strong at times, less intense, or ‘in the background’ at other times. Also (but not from these people) that it is possible for enlightenment to be ‘lost’ and that the individual concerned has to want the state to remain (which is normally not difficult) although I’m not sure whether whether that still applies after many years.

              Re “cunning”, let’s face it, Osho was exceptionally cunning at times, using untruths, lies when it suited his purposes. That’s not a criticism, by the way, it was ‘for our own good’.

              I don’t know whether Osho was ever on any ‘power-trip’, but normally, whoever we are, we all know that sex is an extremely powerful energy that can undermine anyone’s judgment or habitual good sense. Osho declared many times he was “an ordinary man” and sannyasins sang songs confirming, loving, even worshipping that very identity. Now, when the extent of that ‘ordinariness’ appears to be revealed, some, like you, Satchit, prefer to look the other way and admit no possible fault. Strange, as up to now you haven’t come across as any sort of ‘devotee’ type. But that, I guess, is what can happen when a cherished belief is challenged.

              • satchit says:

                You misunderstood it, SD.

                “No possible fault” is part of having no ego anymore. If the identification is gone, who decides what happens? Emptiness is always right.

                But I guess it’s difficult to talk about this from our ego standpoint.

                • satyadeva says:

                  But – I know you’ll correct me if I’m wrong – wasn’t it you, Satchit, who agreed Osho had made at least one or two mistakes. If “emptiness” rules and is infallible, how do you explain that?

                  My understanding is that while someone might well attain and retain, at varying levels, ‘perfect consciousness’, they are still capable of human errors and what we normally term ‘faults’, great and small, eg crashing a car, appointing the wrong person to run their organisation, lapses of memory, irritability (eg Krishnamurti), indulging in self-ish sex….

                • satyadeva says:

                  Btw, I agree with ET that ‘spaciousness’ is a far better term than ‘emptiness’, which has connotations of sadness, painful loss, etc.

                • Klaus says:

                  SD,

                  Emptiness also suggests that ‘nothing is happening in the consciousness’ anymore.

                  Imo this is not the case: thinking, feeling etc. are still there – each having one aspect of clarity and one of emptiness. Like reflective thinking.

                  As Satchit suggests there will be no ego identification – i.e. my thoughts, feelings, decisions etc…

                  Otherwise one would have to live in a monastery where everything is taken care of – and no worldly reflections, decisions are needed.

                  But I might be wrong. It is just maybe so.

                • satchit says:

                  SD,

                  For me it would be an interesting question how far one can understand the
                  phenomenon of enlightenment by us unenlightened ones.

                  If you ask me, these ‘faults’ you mention are judgements from our
                  unenlightened minds.

                  But how is it for the enlightend one himself who has no individual centre anymore?

                  Who has only one centre, the centre of the whole, what’s deep down also our centre, without knowing.

                  All the actions he will be doing will come from this oneness centre, there will no ego interfering, because it is gone.

                  I guess it will all be a happening to him, all totality, no judgement what’s right, what’s wrong.

                  Namaste

                • satyadeva says:

                  But Satchit, you don’t appear to have really considered the implications of your view of the experience of ‘an enlightened one’. I don’t think it’s necessarily always quite how you say it is.

                  Does an enlightened person not have to make decisions, choices?
                  Eg in Osho’s case, giving intimate personal advice to hundreds of people via darshans or letters, appointing someone to run his organisation (Sheela helped to ruin the Oregon project and undermine the reputation of the Sannyas movement), deciding on how his organisation would be run after his death, choosing which women he fancied for sex while determined to keep such liaisons secret (evidently not always ultimately beneficial for the women), choosing which photos to use for book covers, driving a car (Osho crashed his on the Ranch, with no other traffic in sight!).

                  Sure, his brain had been enlightened, he had profound resources of wisdom, of love that were a joy to behold and to bathe in, he was ‘one with Life’, essentially. But on other levels, some things he was good at, other things he wasn’t so good at – like all of us. And to claim, “I guess it will all be a happening to him, all totality, no judgement what’s right, what’s wrong” is not only to make a case for him not to be responsible for anything, but also to be a total fool, who wouldn’t be worthy of anyone’s trust!

                • satchit says:

                  I like ‘emptiness’, it does not make me sad.

                  But there are also other words for the same reality:

                  Oneness, divineness, egolessness, nirvana, non-duality, and so on….

                • satchit says:

                  That’s not true. SD, only he would be worthy of trust.

                  Because he has lost his separated self.
                  And his real self would be the same as your real self.

                  I would say the real self makes choices for him, the ego has died. Something new is reborn.

                • satyadeva says:

                  So, in your terms, Satchit, what you call “the real self” is incapable of making a mistake, in any area of life?

                  How then do you explain the “happenings” (your term again) I’ve mentioned?

                  By saying it’s our unenlightened perception that’s at fault, regardless of the evidence?

                  Do you come from a Catholic background by any chance? As this reminds me of the doctrine of Papal infallibility.

                • satchit says:

                  What happenings you mean, SD?

                  There are so many happenings happen.

                  He said enlightenment does not mean that he knows that his room is bugged.

                  So I guess enlightenment does also not mean that he knows that Sheela was the right person.

                • satyadeva says:

                  “What happenings?”

                  The examples I listed, of course.

                  “He said enlightenment does not mean that he knows that his room is bugged.

                  So I guess enlightenment does also not mean that he knows that Sheela was the right person.”

                  Ignoring that knowing a room is bugged and perceiving a person clearly require very different capacities…Therefore you agree that “enlightenment” is capable of making a mistake, a misjudgment here and there, notwithstanding its ever-deepening profundity (as the enlightened ones report is the case).

                • satyadeva says:

                  And that misjudgment of Sheela wasn’t a small issue, look what happened because of it.

                  Why expect anyone, even an enlightened person, ‘one with Life’ etc. to be any sort of reliable expert on or be automatically qualified to cope adequately with an area of life or of expertise in which they have no specific experience or training? Eg, coping with the demands of life in America, a very different challenge to what was faced in India, where Osho ‘knew the ropes’ very well.

                  There seem to be limits on intelligence, even of the enlightened sort.

                • Lokesh says:

                  I doubt Satchit comes from a Catholic background. His background is more rooted in having read a few Osho books and spiritual books. Everything he says, more or less, sounds like he is parroting something he has read, and mistakenly believes he actually knows what he is talking about, which, of course. he does not.

                  His biggest crime is that he is a bit stupid. Most of the time he is either shooting in the dark, hoping he strikes the lost chord, or simply guessing with the idea in mind that he might just guess the right answer. He is definitely not an existentialist because nothing he says sounds like it is based in actual experience.

                  Shantam used to rattle on about people hiding their identities on SN. Satchit is one of those because he reveals so little about who he actually is, other than being the class dunce.

                • satchit says:

                  Loco, do you really think you can impress
                  me with your little provocations?

                  Now you even try parroting the parrot.
                  This is really far out!

                  Things are simple, you reveal what you want to reveal.
                  I reveal what I want to reveal.

                  Or is this too difficult for your dumb mind?

                • Lokesh says:

                  Satchit, if I wished to impress anything upon you it would be that you would be more interesting if you tried speaking from your own life, instead of repeating stuff you have read in books.

                  As an example, instead of speaking about egolessness in the abstract, why not share the last time when you actually experienced it? If in fact you have. For all I know it all might be running in your imagination.

                • satchit says:

                  Lokesh, you are the better storyteller than me.

                  And you live an excited life on your hippy-island.

                  My life is very ordinary.

                  Reading Osho books is for me long time gone.

                  I just remembered from your morning-blah-blah that you mentioned you were also standing on the brink to egolessness once.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Satchit, although your response is a bit of a sad one, at least it sounds real, human. Osho was big on authenticity, and this is my biggest criticism of what you write on SN. It is not genuine. It is copied.

                  I may well be a better storyteller than you, but that is no reason to compare yourself to me. Everyone has a story to tell, from the Queen of England to the Count of Hell. You don’t write your story. You write other people’s. I suspect you do this because you don’t believe your story is worthwhile telling. You see your life as boring in comparison to mine, if I am to believe what you are saying and you are not just being sarcastic. Some would also describe my life as boring, although I rarely suffer from boredom and it has nothing to do with where I live. ‘Hippy Island’ is tabloid nonsense and has nothing to do with my life. I live very quietly and do not see a lot of people. One of the reasons I write on SN.

                  Gurdjieff once said that if a man can do just one thing well, even if that is just knowing how to brew a decent cup of coffee, then he can have a conversation with that man. If that is good enough for Mr G, it is good enough for me.

                  I stand on the brink of egolessness quite a lot, and I don’t just stand there, I go for it. I had a bash at it today and cried in the midst of a beautiful revelation, while listening to The Beatles’ incomparable ‘Within You and Without You’. Primal Scream’s ‘Moving on Up’ sounded great, also. I see how small I really am quite often, a complete fucking nobody, and I take sanctuary in that experiencing. Today, believe it or not, I thought of you and saw your plight, when I was out in no mind’s land, hence my long response.

                  I would much rather hear about your boring life than all that spiritual bunk you currently write on SN. All you are succeeding in there is making yourself look stupid, and I am quite certain you are not stupid, that there is a real you that could do with sharing. There are some intelligent people writing on SN. Instead of trying to impress them with all that enlightened shite you write, why not actually share something personal about yourself? I am certain you might well be in for a pleasant surprise if you do and the reflections you receive might actually help you learn something new. Never a bad thing. Good luck with that, if you have the guts to go for it.

                • Klaus says:

                  Just doing something without thinking left and right and expecting something out of it can imo also be quite an egoless action:

                  Making spaghetti for the 9 year-old to come home from school.
                  Taking out the pots, putting them on the stove, adding water and letting it boil. Tomato sauce needs some spices – ok. Stirring the spaghetti a few more minutes.
                  Ring, ring – the girl is here, “How was it at school?” – “Ok, nothing special.” – “You like your spaghetti now?” – “Yeesss!”…
                  AQnd so on.

                  No exciting energy there, just being with it – hands carrying plate and fork and spoon. Ok.

                  Isn’t this what we have gone “through the mess of making gutsy efforts” for? I appreciate Lokesh’s accounts of enjoyment and remember the majestic sunset with the clouds he described before while just being with…Gorgeous, isn’t it?

                  I also learned about another Beatles song: ‘Within You, Without You’…

                  I also appreciate Satchit’s expressions. He is pointing again and again to the non-divisive realm.

                  Why would someone write something, if it weren’t in his/her realm of experience? That would be cheating oneself, imo.

                  Telling our stories imo does not separate us from one another. As Lokesh is saying, it makes us human.

                  Sympathetic joy – that comes later than loving kindness and even compassion….

                  Tack. Enjoy the ‘Hygge’ (Danish for feeling-good..).

                  Look at the guys in the video – relaxed:

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5k-OE0-fWs
                  ‘Ain’t She Sweet’ – McCartney & Harrison on ukulele + Ringo (1994)

                • satchit says:

                  Thank you for your long response, Lokesh.

                  One reason that I write short stuff is certainly because I am not a native speaker.

                  All these idioms, slang expressions, takes too much effort to always check the dictionairy.

                  I admit that the thing with the hippy-island was a bit ironic.

                  We are not so much different, I have also not so much contact with people. So writing here
                  on SN is a kind of hobby.

                  I don’t want to impress you or others here, but I like to speculate, also about spiritual things, but for me it is still playful. Because what do we really know?

                  Lately you said you don’t write when you are angry. But for me you come through very aggressive sometimes, that one should function your way, your will shall be done.

                  How often did you say that I am stupid?

                  But I can imagine in real life we would like each other.

                  Take care.

              • Klaus says:

                As far as I understand – after reading comments regarding sexual acts with children and what should have been done about it – the role Bhagwan/Osho wanted to play was not one of a manager of commune affairs.

                But rather that he wanted to (only) share his wisdom/inside/energy/enlightenment as it was/is.

                And let the commune deal with whatever comes up in its own capacity.

                He may have failed in choosing the suitable person(s) from the start and possibly failed in the right timing for coming out of silence during an awful period.

                But the ‘parts’ of the commune who did not interfere and speak up towards the (criminal) bigmouth hubris ‘nonsense’ happening in public (and in secret, too) IMO also failed massively. And possibly even more so as so many are/were highly educated, upper-class and partly even rich people. Or (highly) educated people with a background of non-violence, i.e. love, peace and happiness of the 60s era and Gandhi style ‘ahimsa – non-violent action’, refusal of military service etc.

                Lokesh already commented on these failures in a previous comment to which I broadly agree.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Yes, it was a failure of all of those in charge. But it’s also a problem when you have a new town being created and an inexperienced police force who sometimes turn a blind eye towards the law of the land. Sex with minors is illegal in many countries, and it’s the sheriff’s bailiwick to enforce that.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  But the thing is, Osho was ultimately responsible, it was his commune, built after his vision. I don’t think you can absolve him completely because he delegated some of that responsibility. It was clear that if he said something should be done one way, no one would argue.

                • frank says:

                  Osho`s late night chakra inspection sessions and the abuse allegations have to be separated to some degree, at least for the fact that the latter stories clearly cross boundaries of legality that the former most likely do not.

                  It could be that they are linked in the sense of blind-eye-turning, somnambulant acceptance of dubious worldviews, some promulgated by Osho, and other more seedy parts of the zeitgeist. Remember that in the 1970s (it seems unbelievable these days) in the let-it-all-hang-out spirit of the times, groups that advocated paedophilia often shared platforms with feminists, gay activists and other advocates of sexual liberation, playing to be `oppressed`. Sounds like there was a bit of that kind of extreme and twisted `liberation` ethos floating around in the Osho scene.

                  I know all this stuff is a bit past and maybe a bit painful. (Last night I dreamed I was dissecting a cadaver that to my horror turned out to be a family member, which later morphed into my own left foot. Ouch!). But anyway, another angle on this story has occurred to me.
                  It seems that Erin/Maitri, after Osho died, joined the satsang scene (Klaus posted a link of her involvement as some kind of admin in Gangaji`s org.). She appears to have spent a few decades involved.

                  All the inner search and journey in the company of these so-called awakened ones for decades and she did not realise what had happened to her with Osho? Doesn`t this represent a glitch in her self-awareness and reflect somewhat badly on the efficacy of these scenes for coming to `know oneself?” at a most basic level?

                  Maybe the explanation could be that all these satsangy post-Papaji awakened ones scenes are also plagued with the same kind of authoritarian cultish beliefs and ethos that Erin presents as having got her into this problem in the first place? I wonder how she feels about all that now.

                • Klaus says:

                  NP @28 May, 8.10h

                  If I have caught the details correctly Osho was invited to the commune. And he accepted the invitation under the precondition of being able to do things 100% in his way, to have free reign of how the work will be done.

                  He explicitly stated that this ‘was not his commune’, he rather was a guest of the commune.

                  So the participants should imv not push away authority on the single highest person. But check their own doing or not doing in how things ‘played out’.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Yeah, Frank, good points.
                  I remember Sheela confronting Osho on a live TV interview saying, more or less, ‘Come on, tell them the truth. Tell them you are an ordinary man.’
                  As it has turned out, nobody at the time suspected how ordinary Osho actually was. Sheela must have known about the chakra sessions, for sure. But, as far as I know she never said too much about it.
                  I can remember on SN getting flak from people like Arpana for telling the story about Mexican Rupesh delivering heavy canisters of laughing gas to Osho’s house…dozens of them.
                  Closer to home, all this scandal made me reflect on my relationship with Osho. I still think he was a great man. Of course, he never asked me for a blow job. Probably because he knew I would say no. I was always a bit unsurrendered.

    • frank says:

      Swami Bhorat says:
      “Perfectly correct, Garima!

      Certainly, life is meaningless and all stories are simply illusions of the mind which is nothing but the mind!

      So come quickly to Bungabungalore ashram and get your laughing gear round the illusionary appearance in duality that is sticking out from under my robe! And imbibe deeply of the emanations from the enlightened lingam which is designed in compassionate emptiness to guide you along your path! And afterwards, remember, it`s just a story. So no need to store it in your memory….”

    • satchit says:

      No, Garima, we are not our story.

      We are the creator of our story.

      Everybody paints his/her Osho/Maitri picture.
      One paints with the heart, the other with the mind.

      They never meet.

      • satyadeva says:

        “Everybody paints his/her Osho/Maitri picture.
        One paints with the heart, the other with the mind.

        They never meet.”

        The unconscious irony of this statement is that these choices can arguably be applied either way, not only your point of view, Satchit, but its reverse:

        Sympathetic feeling for Erin (Maitri) from the heart, while the mind gets busy with concocting a mental justification for actions that might otherwise undermine its faith – and calls it ‘heartfelt spirituality’, ‘being in tune with the Master’, or a similar superior-sounding label.

        While in all probability failing to realise or even consider that much of its preferred interpretation might well arises from a need for certainty, security, something or someone to believe in absolutely.

        As a friend of mine has said, “there’s more utter bullshit spoken and claimed in the name of ‘spirituality’ than any other topic.”

        • satchit says:

          SD, this is again your painting.

          You put your colours (ideas plus arguments plus projections) on my statements.

          Fine, one can do it. But I will neither react nor defend. Yahoo!

      • garima says:

        Satchit,
        As long as it is the One who paints, we don’t have to worry, do we?

  27. garima says:

    That’s quite an interesting, extensive explanation, Frank. Yes, it’s probably quite difficult for a man to get into the skin of a woman, even in imagination.

    You might scoff or laugh at this, but if I don’t understand someone’s behaviour I often do role play with gestalt, or voice dialogue, and it’s quite surprising usually what comes up, plus it helps to have more acceptance and compassion for that person.

  28. garima says:

    Thanks for the response, Lokesh. Well, it’s also a good thing that I feel something I wrote is torn to shreds, to the extent I feel upset about it, to that extent I’m still identified. And that’s for me to look at…And after all, it’s only exchanging words, stories, by nobodies. I don’t know you, you don’t know me, that’s clear from your interpretation. It’s all virtual…and yet we pretend to know each other, because we were so-called sannyasins in a distant past….

    So it’s obvious I’m writing to myself here, since that is the only person I know….Howdy, Garima…talking to yourself again?

    • frank says:

      @Garima

      Writing stuff down is worthwhile and fun in itself. If anyone who has the vaguest interest or idea what you`re on about reads it, it`s a bonus.

    • Nityaprem says:

      @Garima

      Sometimes it is fun though, to talk to sannyasins who you do not know. It’s like taking half of a story about yourself, putting it into the Universal Semi-Random Story Generator ™ and watching an answer come rolling out, in all its infinitely-variable, colour-coded glory.

    • Lokesh says:

      I have met four people that I got to know through commenting on SN. I liked all of them. The big surprise was Shantam. He wrote so much nonsense on SN, including racist shit about the white skins. He turned out to be a sweet guy, loving father with a very smart and charming son, who I also liked. Shantam had tears in his eyes when we hugged and said adios on Ibiza some years back.

      As for getting upset by other writers’ comments – forget it. A non-serious approach is the way to go on the streets of SN. I don’t think anyone really means to hurt anyone else on here. Take it with a pinch of curry powder.

  29. Lokesh says:

    I hear people like Satchit using words like ‘emptiness’, ‘nothingness’, ‘egoless’ etc., which in turn makes me think that if they really entered an egoless space they would in all probability shit their pants. Talk is cheap and so are words. These states require guts to go for them, not just a load of blah, blah, blah.

    • Nityaprem says:

      Very true, Lokesh. Real spiritual exploration confronts you with a load of difficult questions: What if you lose something essential? What if you end up crippling your spiritual self? The stakes become a lot higher, and to really get involved requires courage.

      • frank says:

        I think you guys are being too hard on Satchit here.

        I`m sure that he must have had some pretty deep and devastating experiences of emptiness in his life.

        Like when FC Bayern lost to that mickey mouse Spanish team in the Cup. Not a shot on target, a bit like his posts on SN. His ego must have been knocked sideways. Also he is clearly no stranger to emptiness when it comes to bottles of Alzheimer Pils.

    • satchit says:

      I know that it requires guts, Lokesh.

      And I know that you did not have these guts.

      Otherwise you would have been enlightened long ago, bro.

      PS:
      I suggest you reread my text.
      I did not pretend being enlightened.

  30. Nityaprem says:

    I just wanted to add this quote from Osho…

    “Q: Are you celibate?
    A: No, why should I be? I am just natural, why should I be unnatural? If you want to meet celibates you go to a Catholic monastery, and you will meet celibates doing nothing but masturbating. I don’t see that anybody can be naturally celibate, he is bound to become a pervert in some way or other.

    I am a simple, natural man, I follow my natural instincts in every way. I have loved many women – perhaps no man may have loved so many women. In the beginning I used to keep count; then I dropped it because what was the point?”
    (Osho, ‘The Last Testament’)

    If that is so, where is the natural instinct towards loyalty, to take care, to form a partnership, to reciprocate, to love deeply? In Osho’s approach to free love as described in Erin Robbins’s letter I see something that’s shorn of all the natural instincts towards parenthood. It seems aimed at satisfying lust, if anything.

  31. Lokesh says:

    Hi, Satchit,

    Thanks for your sincere response. For me it is one of the best comments you have posted on SN because it gives a sense of who is behind the words.

    Just for the record I am not aggressive in real life. My bark is a lot worse than my bite. I grew up in Fifties Glasgow…a very tough place to grow up. You had to stand up for yourself or be a good runner in the face of the aggression on the streets. I had to do a lot of encounter therapy to overcome some of the nego programmes I picked up in my youth. What a relief to drop them.

    I still visit Glasgow once in a while and occasionally look up some old friends. They are very normal people, who like to discuss football and politics, neither of which I am interested in. What I appreciate about most Glaswegians is their ability to talk straight, call a spade a spade. If they think you are getting too big a head about something they will pull your leg about it…hard. So I come from such a background. That is why Frank jokingly calls me a Scottish skinhead. I reality I would not hurt a fly.

    I have said you are stupid many times. Not because you are stupid, but because you post a lot of stupid comments about supreme spiritual states that I doubt have anything to do with who you are in real life. Most of the regulars will not be taken in by that. Maybe you are fooling yourself. I do not know.

    Whatever the case may be, I find such lofty spiritual jargon uninspiring. Everyday life is the path and I enjoy to read comments relating to everyday life, not holy Joe talk about emptiness, nothingness, egolessness etc. Yes, those states exist, but if you are in those spaces there is nothing much to say other than ‘wow!’ That is why Lao Tzu said that he who speaks does not know.

    Of course, in real life we would like each other. I tend to like most people I meet. Not because they are all great people, but because I find that liking people makes my life easier. Ha ha! Easy is right.

  32. frank says:

    Some of those Zen stories that Osho dug out towards the end were a bit far out. My favourite was:

    Master Wang was walking along the road in a storm in the middle of the night and it was pouring with rain. Absolutely pissing down. He was absolutely soaked through.

    One of his disciples, Dum Gai, pulled up alongside him in a car, wound down the window and asked: ”Do you want a lift?”
    Wang answered. “No thanks, I live in a bungalow.”

  33. Lokesh says:

    Yeah, I’ve met Dum Gai many times. He is everywhere and nowhere and on SN all at the same time. He is especially fond of quoting Osho quotes.

  34. Nityaprem says:

    There’s a certain art in thinking up joke names that aren’t immediately obvious. As a non-Chinese speaker it took me several seconds to realise Dum Gai was not a proper Chinese name. Doh! I too am Dum Gai.

  35. frank says:

    Don`t forget Fung Hai and Foon Gai the two Zen masters who taught liberation through enjoying yourself and taking magic mushrooms.

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