Frank makes the case for open communication between rigidly polarised groups.
I don`t think anyone would deny that the world has become torn apart with every kind of polarity: left v right / religion v rationality / vaxx v anti-vaxx / “sheeple” v “covidiots” / climate campaigners v climate change deniers etc. etc. The Oshosphere is not exempt: .devotional v therapy / old-time religious v religionless religion, and maybe even 70s sensibilities v ‘MeToo’ and so on.
Many commentators these days suggest that some kind of dialogue is the only way through. This is in notoriously short supply as a brief browse online shows how much folks are locked into their echo-chambers and filter-bubbles.
In the Sannyas scene, dialogue has never been given much credence per se. It has always been a bit ‘top-down’. Even those who moved on from Osho and got into other gurus tend to go more for the idea of truth being revealed by those who know, ie the gurus. Thus, the discussion between Guru and disciple is never dialogic as such, for the guru disseminates from an essentially higher state. It`s not difficult to see how this slides into authoritarianism and fascism , as Sannyas history tends to illustrate.
The authoritarian approach is scarily more common politically on every continent than it was when Osho was alive. It`s no surprise then, that the cross-over between religion and extreme right-wing/authoritarian thinking, and that includes “Newage spirituality”, is so extensive.
The fact that SN is the only public discussion area and has been for years is quite amazing really. Yes, there`s Facebook. Yet many of the sannyasin Facebook sites are members-only, which reflect the elitism and insiderism usually associated with typically authoritarian structures, not to mention cults.
Most open Osho sites are essentially consumerist/propagandist in nature. Flogging their and their friends` products. No chance of a conversation there.
At the risk of entering into Swami Bhorat territory and in the absence of better solutions, I will even venture to say that a good chinwag is the only hope for humanity.
Aye or nay?
(MOD: Apologies for lay-out flaws)
Yes!
Views and opinions are just that.
Observation(s) of whats going on in one’s life – outer or inner – to me are existential and cannot be put into standardised concepts of -ism and or -ology.
What is really happening? Aversion, loneliness, fear, insecurity, independence or other?
So many questions.
Eugene Gendlin was an interesting psychologist.
He said: “What is split off, not felt, remains the same. When it is felt, it changes. Most people don’t know this! They think that by not permitting the feeling of their negative ways they make themselves good. On the contrary, that keeps these negatives static, the same from year to year. A few moments of feeling it in your body allows it to change. If there is in you something bad or sick or unsound, let it inwardly be and breathe. That’s the only way it can evolve and change into the form it needs.
Every bad feeling is potential energy toward a more right way of being if you give it space to move toward its rightness.”
Exactly, Frank.
That is what I hinted at in the “wounds have consequences” article…
With each painful event in the psyche confronted, worked through and transformed there will be new light in the inner.
However, there might be another ‘tunnel at the end of this light’.
Then we have to pick ourselves up, turn ourselves around and we are going to start all over.
We need the new light to overcome the imprints again and again.
Peeling the onion can be tearful.
@ Satchit
Now that’s reframing.
I am not unaware of this.
Definitely got something going on to do with energy.
Like riding a wild horse. Good to be intense and full of fire. Alive.
＼(☆o◎)/
It’s hard or rather mostly impossible to find anyone unpolarized in some way or the other, including myself!
Not everyone wants / needs to have an open discussion about their side; maybe the ones who don’t want to openly discuss this / that would probably come under the ”rigid” category!
But guess in some cases rigidity is the only ultimate solution! So, ultimately the solution is – no solution! Or probably all solutions are only temporary!
Yes, me too! Shall ”venture to say that a good ‘chinwag ’ is the only hope for humanity”! If at all, anything such as a solution-free life for humans exists!
Well, Frankie, thank you for introducing ‘chinwag’ to my vocabulary!
Cheers, K.
Christianity seems to be making a bit of a revival around here so, I say unto you:
“Blessed are the chinwaggers for they shall at least get a bit of enlightentertainment.”
Actually, Frankie – I say unto you, all nations are seriously reviving their religious identities; wondering if the God- fearing chinwaggers are really the blessed ones?!
Good point!
“Beati pauperes spiritu
quoniam ipsorum est regnum caeloru.”
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
In a more modern language:
Blessed are those who have few items on their minds as they can rest in heaven.
Or some such.
Imo, the ideologue’s mind is fully filled with words and stuff.
The discussion between Guru and disciple cannot be dialogic because they are not on the same level.
The disciple is the searcher and the Guru has found.
Well, Sannyasnews is not the only public discussion area.
There will also be other sites in other countries, I am unsure how many but one needs to understand Russian, or other languages.
This sort of statement about how the guru has found and the disciple is the searcher is a classic example of the ignorance of these times. How many times does it have to be pointed out that the ignorance of the master is a reflection of his disciples (what a ghastly word that is, so filled with eastern rhetoric) and vice versa.
What guru hasn’t made catastrophic mistakes, been found wanting in so many areas? And such thinking just makes disciples passive believers and followers.
What, Simond, are your qualifications for making such a knowing statement? How exactly did you come to a place where you can speak with such certitude about such matters?
You speak as always like a priest. You’re like a man who never had sex, but read ‘The Joy of Sex’ over and over again!
I have no qualifications to speak of, Arpana. Unlike you, I don’t need to quote others or read intellectual books or defer to anyone. I use my experience and intelligence to make observations as I see fit.
What precisely are you so offended by in these observations? If it’s the reference to mistakes by gurus, I suggest you examine the lives of any guru and come up with one or more who hasn’t made a mistake, an error of judgement. To err is, after all, a human trait, surely?
As to your comment about my sexual inactivity, I can assure you I’m still very much up for it.
@ Simond
You can’t read properly if you think that was a remark about your sex life, you silly old bugger!!
Interesting how well-informed you are about Gurus. That’s intellectual. Who cares?!!
My inner life has been transformed by my relationship with Osho, and meditation.
Don’t preach at me about being intellectual.
I don’t consider myself superior to anyone, nor inferior (you can’t write that down about yourself).
Doesn’t mean I can’t recognise self-aggrandising cant when I read it.
You had an opportunity. You didn’t have what it takes. You ran away. You failed. Not Osho.
Stop preaching and trying to convince yourself your failure was Osho’s fault. You didn’t have what it takes.
And for God’s sake stop kidding yourself your preaching is objective.
@ Simond
I rated the article you wrote. Most sincere you have sounded here. I could relate to some of it.
Here’s what you don’t understand about Osho:
If you had stuck around, meditated, grown-up, which is what the whole game is about, he would have addressed you as you are. As you matured he would have spoken to that maturing you. He is not that internalised parent spouting the same old crap at you constantly. What he says changes as you change.
Osho is addressing people at whatever level of maturity or immaturity they are at, at any given time. You will never be able to understand that experientially because you cut and ran.
Thank you, Arpana, for your feedback about sincerity.
I won’t go into too much debate about what I’ve said here or in the preceding article.
I respect your love of Osho and how he has helped you. I have no desire to take that away from you.
All I try to express is my own understanding and lack of it, and to offer whatever I can as part of a real dialogue.
Finally, I don’t feel I failed Osho, or that he failed me. As I’ve mentioned time and again, my love and respect has never wavered. However, as he changed his mind about many things, so I too have changed. The circumstances of the 1980s are so very different from today.
Arpana says, ‘Here’s what you don’t understand about Osho.’
Timothy Leary said, ‘Think for yourself and question authority.’
Arpana believes he understands something about Osho that Simond does not, thus setting himself up as an authority on the matter. Sounds like puerile nonsense to me. As if Arpana understood ‘what the whole game is about’. Egocentric to the max.
If anything, Osho served as a mirror, mirroring whoever happened to sit in front of him. Whatever someone saw reflected in that mirror had nothing to do with anyone else and thus, if effective, did away with the need for authoritarian viewpoints and self-appointed priests, or in Arpana’s case the role of Sannyasnews self-appointed village policeman.
Lokesh,
Whatever credibility you had, as far as I was concerned, was wiped out when you sneered at me because I’d had a hard time with TM, as you knew more about TM than I did, because you had a friend who had done TM and he didn’t have a hard time.
You are 70 years old and you still don’t understand the difference between experience and what you’ve heard about. Sad.
“Policeman”:
When you call others out that’s because you are scientifically and spiritually objective, but anyone who calls you out is flawed.
Get over yourself.
PC Arpana’s thick-soled boots are hurting his feet as he pounds the streets of SN. Having to carry the weight of all those chips on his shoulder adds to the agony.
Perhaps he will get some solace from dreaming he knows ‘what the whole game is about.’ But really, if you think about it, such mumbo jumbo wears a bit thin when spread over decades, because it wasn’t based on anything substantial in the first place. I’m outta here. I don’t want to get a ticket for loitering if PC Arpana catches me hanging out on a shadowy corner of SN’s Main Street.
@ Lokesh.
Thanks for sharing that with me, your specialness.
Arpana, the difficulty you have is disassociating the pain you had about a comment Lokesh made about some while ago, (was it days or even months ago?) with what is being explored now.
Do you see? Pain gets in the way and clouds everything.
Lokesh’s style is occasionally very direct. He can be impatient, he’s very clear, he says it as he sees it. It’s up to me to stand back from any reaction I may have, listen to what he says first. Don’t let my standpoint stop me from hearing what he says.
In this way the very subject that Frank raised in his article about the difficulty of dialogue may be addressed.
@ Lokesh.
I’ve just re-read this.
You’ve policed Sannyas News since I got involved; pontificating, spouting whatever it took to shut down any positive talk about Sannyas and Osho.
You don’t have even a modicum of self-awareness. Talk about ‘projection’.
@ Simond,
I’m not in pain about what Lokesh said.
To me a remark like that goes to the heart of his credibility. He has none.
You obviously see Lokesh as above me. I don’t share that view.
Lokesh plainly sees himself as the apex of Sannyas News. I don’t. I’m just poking at him.
I accept you mean well by this intervention, but this is rescuer behaviour.
And we wonder at the ‘madness’ of antagonisms between nations…
Although at least some of the leaders are actually meeting each other, whereas online we’re seeing the inherent limitations of ‘disembodied’ communication, if emotions are allowed to run the show.
As Frank says, “Interesting chat can happen online but it`s a crazy landscape.
The dialogue that needs to happen is probably embodied dialogue as the net doesn`t always bring out the best in folks!
Still, I recently came across this quote from Montaigne:
“The most fruitful and natural exercise for our minds is, in my opinion, conversation.”
To be continued….
Although I have to admit that I am quite partial to the occasional religious ruck, philosophical fracas, spiritual scuffle and sectarian scrap, in my old age I am seriously considering becoming an ancient Greek philosopher.
“Epochē, in Greek philosophy, “suspension of judgment”, a principle originally espoused by non-dogmatic philosophical Skeptics of ancient Greece who, viewing the problem of knowledge as insoluble, proposed that, when controversy arises, it is wise to refrain from any conclusion for or against anything. This is the decisive step for the attainment of ataraxy -a state of serene calmness.”
Anyone here tried it?
Any good?
@Frank, 12 Feb, 4.19 pm
The controversial conversations going on here imo are excellent and to the point.
I have a large grin on my face and my head is empty as a light bulb, ie. no taking of sides.
Very uplifting works indeed!
“Arpana believes he understands something about Osho that Simond does not, thus setting himself up as an authority on the matter. Sounds like puerile nonsense to me.”
As if Arpana understood ‘what the whole game is about’.
He may not understand what ‘the whole game is about’ (can anyone?) yet he obviously understands Osho better than yourself or Simond.
Sannyasnews appears to have become unpopular within sannyas circles, simply because a fair amount of negativity, but also statements and even articles from some commentators which have included attempts to try to to tell sannyasins that they are ‘imagining’ their experiences with Osho or are ‘delusional’. If they talk about experiences that others doubt.
These kind of statements do not function as ‘zen hits’, as they are not hitting anything that is substantial, but will appear childish and hostile to many sannyasins – thus making the site appear unwelcoming for the majority of sannyasins. And that includes not only those who have experience, as most will not want to write publicly about them, but the general level of hostility will also be off-putting to many new sannyasins. On the other hand, the site has become very attractive to certain parasitic Christians and a couple of simple-minded North Americans who are very obsessed with Osho, but in an unhealthy way.
I am not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing, and I have got a lot out of the site over the years, just how it appears to me right now.
I think what may have been irritating Arpana there (and I could be wrong) is some of the hostility towards those who really appreciate Osho here.
@ Shanti.
Damn right I feel irritated by the hostility towards those of us who appreciate Osho. At a site that wouldn’t exist if not for him.
Half-assed, glass is half-empty saddoes.
Shanti says, “Arpana obviously understands Osho better than yourself or Simond.”
How absurd. As if there is some way to calibrate who understood Osho best. As if there is some sort of competition going on. Shanti Gascoigne gives Arpana a starter for ten on SN Challenge. Unfortunately Arpana feels irritated about it and loses his starter for ten.
@ Lokesh posted:
“How absurd. As if there is some way to calibrate who understood Osho best.”
Are you fucking kidding? Your shtick is only you know anything about Sannyas and Osho.
Sounds like a round of ‘Universally Challenged’ to me.
Btw, Shanti , who are the “parasitic Christians” you refer to?
You are the one who recently posted a born-again Christian cartoon and are always enthusiastic about Jehovah`s Witnesses. Plus Arpana was trying to push some Xian who was trying to get away with “Original sin is the founder of democracy.”
You remind me of an old episode of ‘Hancock`s Half-Hour’ where Hancock gets freaked out by the fact he is receiving poison-pen letters. He gets really worked up about it trying to work out who would be doing it.
In the end it transpires that he has been writing and posting them to himself in his sleep.
Come on then, let’s have it, let’s have it!
Shanti is destroying Osho’s vision with his aggresive posturing, and not living up to the name the master gave him.
I apologise for any aggressive posturing last night which may have intimidated ex-Sannyas baboons such as Lokesh and Frank.
Even aggressive posturers and rogues such as Darth Vader, Boba Fett , Han Solo and Lando Calrissian were able to share an amicable if somewhat uncomfortable lunch together:
https://youtu.be/ywSOt773ic4
Better watch it though. Next time, you could be hung, drawn and quartered.
Shanti,
I get it now.
I guess if you have been brought up as a fan of Star Wars and stuff, it is easy to slip into mythical dream worlds about magical gurus, yogis, supernatural forces, etc.
It`s pretty much the same genre.
Fantasy.
I wasn’t brought up as a fan of Star Wars, I just watched the movies as they were released – the last one in the eighties. I don’t rate the more recent films as highly. But I am for sure a fan of the first films which I consider some of the best films ever made.
I introduced them to my own kids.
Is Star Wars fantasy the same as mystical experience? No.
Running around and imagining you are Luke Skywalker or Han Solo is good fun, but not the same as meditation, or growth in consciousness.
Jedi Masters are not the same as enlightened Masters. In fact, the Star Wars concept of the duality of Light and Dark sides of the Force has nothing to do with authentic non-duality. It bears more in common with Christian notions of good vs. evil – beliefs which are often limited and flawed as what is held and considered either ‘good or evil’ , ‘right or wrong’ , always depends on the particular mind , backround , conditioning of the individual and the values of the society that they were brought up in.
For example, the idea of an enlightened master, going from a relatively simple appearance to having lots of cars and displaying opulence could be difficult with those from a particular religious backround and can play into the mind of the ‘fallen from Grace’ concept of some Christian conditioning, thus making it easy, for example, for some of those with a strict Christian conditioning, especially Americans, to believe that Osho ‘lost’ his enlightenment after his display of Rolls Royce collection developed. They were brought up with the idea that ‘only a poor man can enter into the Kingdom of God’.
Whereas the many kids growing up in Sannyas homes today will have no such issue with the idea of an enlightened man enjoying luxury and material comforts. They have a ‘Zorba the Buddha ‘ conditioning.
Nevertheless, here is another Star Wars fan, Prem Vishrant, from Osho’s own lineage, talking on Star Wars vs. Buddhism in this satsang:
https://youtu.be/RRpL2fcTr00
I find it quite remarkable that Shanti imagines calling someone an “ex-sannyasin” delivers some clout. How twee is that?
I would be interested to hear what his definition is of a sannyasin and ex-sannyasin. I suppose that will require him to put on a white robe, do the hokey cokey and look for a few relevant Osho quotes before coming up with anything remotely resembling a response to this.
@ Lokesh. 17 February, 2022 at 8:47 am.
Why do you care what Shanti’s opinion of you is?
Oh! PC Arpana is on the prowl. Strange, I didn’t hear him blowing his own whistle until it was too late. Now he has his wee black book out, licking the point of a stubby pencil, ready to issue me with a ticket.
But hold on a minute. I’m innocent. I did not say I cared what citizen Shanti’s opinion of me is, because I really do not care. Everyone knows that opinions are like assholes because everyone has one, so why care about them? This amounts to nothing more than police harassment.
While we are at it, I notice that some of the pages of PC Arpana’s copy of the deluxe edition of ‘The Good Catholic Sannyassins’s Handbook’ are stuck together. There is definitely something fishy going on. Could it be that the PC is slipping into the hell world of the ex-sannyasin? I shall pray for his soul.
@ Lokesh
What a surprise. You’ve changed the subject!!!
The court reminds the condemned man that extracting unholy self-satisfaction of a lubricious, licentious and lustful nature whilst watching other teachers on YT is already a crime of the most unpardonable sort.
The magistrate therefore advises you not to worsen and further increase your sojourn in the flames of hell by the continual and unrepentant practice of bitchcraft.
I guessed that might bother you. I can’t give any more thought to it for a while, as need to take a little break from the game for a while to focus on some more important issues.
Adios
In the meantime, more ‘tit for tat’ from Robot Chicken. https://youtu.be/-Xt0GO4KaqQ
Swamishanti,
Wish you a nice break::))
And thanks for the Vishrant link, btw.
No problem. And, until I return, for Star Wars fans…
More Robot Chicken:
“This deal’s getting worse all the time…”:
https://youtu.be/31HaTbWONmQ
@ Shanti, who wrote at the other thread (‘Sannyas News Facebook Page’):
“Simple sannyasin/ex-sannyasin baboons and doubting Thomases such as Frank and Lokesh are not Arhats, they belong in the first category.
Because they have fooled themselves into believing that they know better than those with trust and experience, who were at Rajneeshpuram, the new commune (in Lokesh’s case he wasn’t) ….”
Being/having been at the Ranch is not better than not being/not having been at the Ranch.
Because ‘Witnessing’ is the main factor.
You can witness this or that.
Very, very good point!
Observing is de-identification.
Things are movibg.
Tutto corretto, imo.
Satchit, you commented on the 6th February @ 8.41, to Shanti:
”Being/having been at the Ranch is not better than not being/not having been at the Ranch.”
I am pretty certain Shanti wasn’t saying to be at the Rranch was better than not being at the Ranch. He was saying, not having been at the Ranch wasn’t better than spending time in that situation, as certainly one of our number believes!
I take it you didn’t make it to Oregon?
I don’t know of what “number” you speak, Arps.
No, I was not on the Ranch. You ?
@ Satchit.
Two longish visits and facing the world while the controversies were going on in the West, with few sannyas contacts. As difficult in a different way as being one among many other Osho people (if wearing the mala and red clothes, that is!).
Eureka!
Has just come to my awareness I’ve been quite comfortable being completely anonymous, albeit not especially so, ever since we stopped wearing the Mala and red clothes. Being in the West during that time in a mala and red clothes, certainly for me, was to be in a state of permanent and varying degrees of at times excruciating self-consciousness.
“excruciating self-consciousness”
Being conscious of being part of a group?
Satchit,
Have you never experienced feeling self-conscious?
It depends what you call self-conscious.
Conscious of the real self or of the false self?
@ Satchit.
Google Translate says self-consciousness in German is Selbstvertrauen, although the next page says confidence. ???
Self-consciousness means you have the understanding that nobody is higher or below you, relax.
People are only different.
I wonder, Arps, why you have these problems with Frank and Loco?
@Satchit,
Because, unlike you and Frank and his special friend, everyone else for that matter who posts here, I am deeply flawed, utterly lacking in self-awareness, and because I see dark where there is only light.
Because I am completely unintegrated, and screwed up, project my flawed self onto all these unflawed individuals, and I don’t care, because in my own flawed, troubled, inferior way I am doing my best to make the best of my life, and nothing anybody here has ever written has convinced me they have something that is so above me I should defer to them, particularly Frank’s special friend, although I often find Frank’s posts, as I do yours, and others’, interesting.
@ Arps
You have also your special flavour.
Stopped painting?
;Time for the Baby Boomers to Grow Up Already’
By Michael Warren Davis
https://justpaste.it/6wk58
In response to your article, Frank, regarding dialogue and the lack of it.
These days are trying times for intelligent dialogue. Occasionally on Fb, the BBC dig up old interviews with Michael Parkinson, or late night shows with intellectuals of one sort or another.
The pace and style is so much slower and more open, even gracious, than that of today’s interviews. Today the Media thrive on creating real or imagined conflict. The onus is on the entertainment value of conflict. The seeking of a more harmonious resolution of ideas is abhorrent to the media
As much as the media express this, so I can see it is also a reflection of the psyche or the gestalt “of the day”. Whether this division is an expression of an inner conflict within seems a possible explanation to me. How this has come about is perhaps a subject for another day, but I always tend to look into the micro to see the macro and vice versa.
The old rules have broken down and we are entering a more profound time of conflict and change. The lack of real debate confirms this. The pain of the ‘Me Too’ movements, the climate change warfare, the political divide, the Trump era, all seem indicators that we are moving away from the old regime Into something new.
I’m challenged by it too. It’s not easy. And the easy answers of meditation and staying in the now don’t work either, do they? The new age rhetoric is failing, or at least it has failed me. So too, all religious leaders, gurus, and all. The onus now is on the individual, on me, alone, with whatever band of merry warriors to seek out the new solutions. I find great solace in women, but not all, and in my ability to stay out of intellectual debate, as far as is possible. I am learning to use the muscle of instinctive feeling to make my observations and to listen and learn from the many intelligent people, struggling like me, to be honest and true.
To be honest, I might add, not to my gross emotions but to the deeper feelings within. And to always fall back on the changing nature of any realisations. Not to get stuck in simple theories and explanations, but to create real dialogue with others. I’m learning that by asking real questions of others, I get real answers.
Finally, I have no hope for mankind but I’m learning to accept the hope in me must die.
Hi Simond,
Yes, the speed is ramping up, probable destination: vanishing point.
`Abandon hope all who enter here` is probably the catchphrase.
I guess a lot of it is down to the attention economy and the fact that everyone is fighting to capture your time/attention online and monetise/utilise it. Controversy and the attendant souped-up emotions get addictive clicks.
I guess we have managed to have polarisations/civil wars long before the internet.
Interesting chat can happen online but it`s a crazy landscape.
The dialogue that needs to happen is probably embodied dialogue as the net doesn`t always bring out the best in folks!
Still, I recently came across this quote from Montaigne:
“The most fruitful and natural exercise for our minds is, in my opinion, conversation.”
Simond said,
”And the easy answers of meditation and staying in the now don’t work either, do they? ”
“Easy” – Really? Tell me more.
By easy, Arpana, I was referring to how the teachers of meditation and those who talk about living in the now, talk the talk, but rarely walk the walk.
Their simple formulas fail and the evidence is all around us. The Eckhart Tolles of the world and all the other teachers of this sort, don’t ever answer real questions, they avoid real talk of love, jealousy and pain, and therefore are of no real value to me. Indeed, they confuse others with their spiritual nonsense.
What I would reproach some of the teachers like ET for sometimes would be that he does not seem ‘to pick up the mood of the moment’ of the crowd sitting in front of him.
Or is the possible intent to take them away from brooding – thinking – worrying into (the) other dimension(s)?
Then again, people might not be able to answer questions like ‘Can you observe awareness arising?’. In a state of where one is at at this moment.
I am, however, just catching occasional youtubes, some of which are quite old.
The “can you observe awareness arising? “ is another example of the nonsense of these so-called teachers. It’s the duplicity of the statement, the windrows lie of the idea.
I like your observation of how ET “misses the mood of the room”. I’ve noticed this too, it’s because at times he simply doesn’t answer the question at all, leaving the room rather unsettled.
His way of concluding a difficult monologue is to bow and Namaste, and everyone thinks they are very “Eastern and wise”.
Still the fact is this is where the masses reside, as in truth they always have.
MOD:
Simond: “the windrows lie” – should that be ‘wondrous’?
This is a good website to help in understanding all these so-called teachers.
https://sebpearce.com/bullshit/
Just imagine what could happen if in a Satsang where everyone sitting in the crowd paid something like 90 USD for a 1.5 hours session……….
….. and the one in front would have everybody “sit in silence” for 1.5 hours and “experience it”?
Thus, the bullshit generator comes into play, I guess.
Would there be more than just “a mild fracas”?
The British might say:
“Wow, everybody just went bonkers!”
Should have put “the bullshit generator” in inverted commas, too.
Sometimes it may be bullshit, sometimes not.
Sometimes we cannot make the difference.
In that sense.
I’m not sure this is completely true, Simond.
ET advises:
“If there is jealousy, defensiveness, the urge to argue, the need to be right, an inner child demanding love and attention, or emotional pain of any kind – whatever it is, know the reality of that moment and hold the knowing.”
And…
https://eckharttolle.com/personal
love/#:~:text=ET%3A%20True%20love%20is%20transcendental,the%20form%20%E2%80%93%20is%20true%20love
“whatever it is, know the reality of that moment and hold the knowing….”
(ET)
https://makeagif.com/gif/eckhart-tolle-burrowing-3-dOnznv
Ask yourself, what does the following sentence mean, Sat? “Know the reality of the moment and hold that knowing.“
It is indirect, and wishy-washy. It confirms in the mind of most students that this “knowing” is very much some place else and some place better than they know. Far off, never to be realised.
He doesn’t enter the ugly arena of jealousy, love, hate, sex, with any other sticking plaster than statements like “hold the knowing.”
If you are facing the wrath of woman, I can tell you that sort of answer never helped me one bit.
Look at the man, with his high-pitched voice and his forever blinking eyes, his silly laugh.
It doesn’t mean he hasn’t realised something of the inner mystery, but he continues to fool the people with the same old “be in the moment” nonsense that most of the gurus of the past hoped to sell us.
When we were attracted to Osho was precisely because he sold a far deeper, more illuminating box of tricks, with laughter and wonder.
@ Simond.
Sounds to me as if you are being ‘triggered’ by him, to coin a phrase, as if he’s a parent or teacher. Someone you’ve been involved with.
Or you’re seeing aspects of yourself in him you can’t accept. Probably both.
Arpana,
Would you take the time to explain why and how I’m “triggered” in this case, and “ a rescuer” in another of your posts?
You appear to have a great deal of insight into psychological matters, far more than I have.
In addition, you seem so knowledgeable about Eckhart Tolle and how my expectations have clouded my observations.
Rather than simply make a judgment, could you offer your own personal insight and understanding? Use your own real experience to tackle these complex issues.
In this way an opportunity for dialogue is possible.
Homework of this kind might really enable you to get your own thinking clearer and help me at the same time.
@ Simond,
Well, first of all, you’re a rescuer so you see everything in terms of villain and victim. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Karpman_drama_triangle
ET is a villain wronging victims, whom you want to rescue.
‘Triggered’ just means externals get your blood up, your mind racing. What he says ‘presses your buttons’.
My pulse rate goes up if I see anyone in faded shades of red, despite that being so long ago.
I’m not knowledgeable about ET, but have heard enough of how he speaks to know what you’re getting at. When someone carries on about externals as you do about him, that says to me you’re being triggered. You’re calling him names – that’s projection.
You might be taking this a bit personally. Was just a remark, as I felt we had moved on a bit.
I get triggered, get my buttons pressed. Regularly.
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Karpman_drama_triangle
Don’t confuse boundary setting with being triggered, although buttons being pressed can lead to boundary setting.
P.S:
Have you been a teacher at some point in your life, or even ‘a man of the cloth’?
Arpana, 14 Feb, 7:19
But, Simond – or me, too, and/or others as well – could have been – or most certainly was – a ‘wo/man of many cloths’ i.e. roles. Parts of which can reappear in expressions and even behaviour.
There are certainly quite a few aspects of oneself one certainly does not want to talk about on a public noticeboard happily. Long sentence, isn’t it?
Spanish Inquisition
any kind of war participation
life of agony in times of hunger – Irish famine
Slavery oppressor/victim
WW 1, WW 2 – Germans and else
dictatorships Myanmar
Torture Gitmo
…
Just a few things springing into my mind…that could be called “sins committed”…
I like Simond’s expression “help me / help you, too” as much as I liked your “I dont have any meaningful sense of inferiority / superiority”…
Feeling the heat brings out a lot…creativity not the least….
Cheers.
The Karpman drama triangle…
About roles adopted – and switched, ha, good:
“The reason that the situation persists is that each participant has their (frequently unconscious) psychological wishes/needs met without having to acknowledge the broader dysfunction or harm done in the situation as a whole. Each participant is acting upon their own selfish needs, rather than acting in a genuinely responsible or altruistic manner.[citation needed] Any character might “ordinarily come on like a plaintive victim; it is now clear that the one can switch into the role of Persecutor providing it is ‘accidental’ and the one apologizes for it”.
@ Simond.-
Definitely, something going on with you regarding E.T. and your expectations.
I’m indifferent to E.T. You’re not!
Thank you, Arpana,
I didn’t realise I saw everything in terms of villain and victim. (Did you mean everything?)
I’d guess we all have some tendencies to feel sorry for ourselves, self-pity is something I recognise from my past. Inevitably any such notion will also contain its opposite, the villain. I too have been one of them.
Indeed I’m conscious that any label or aspect of personality and or self-identity can be labelled at me. I contain every aspect of consciousness within, some more conscious perhaps than others. Some I’ve acted out, others less so.
As to being triggered, I’m always up for being surprised at my reactions, occasionally even shocked. It always humbles me when I have to see things fresh again and without the habit of my opinions and judgement.
Overall I don’t worry about such things or such labels. I’ve given up identifying with them too much, or taking them too seriously. You might say old age has lessened my need to be heard, or to fight the good fights.
I’d say being deeply loved has helped me. Whereas once I soldiered on alone, with the world on my shoulders, and injustice and blame in my heart.
Slowly over many years of exploration I lost that focus, and as a result invited more harmony, more love into my life. Woman is a tremendous healer for us men, but she says I do the same for her.
Where I am more prejudiced is in the area of those who teach this consciousness stuff. Having known one of the best, in Osho, I’m a great one for looking at the modern versions, as well as some from years gone by. I’ve learned a lot from the very best and the very worst. Both have their uses. But I’m somewhat saddened and angered by the nonsense so many spiritual and psychobabbling teachers display. I am not triggered by ET, because I know his limitations. To be triggered implies a lot of emotion and I’m not. However, I do like to help others (my rescuing habit, again) to see that this old school namaste, master teacher, bliss, emptiness talk is limited. I have no truck with it because I see where it leads.
If by sharing my insight it helps anyone, so be it.
Your final question which in various ways you’ve never, until now, really asked, about me being a man of the cloth? No, never been close to the church or any form of priestly endeavours.
Would it matter? Does it help to identify me in some way? How does such a label fit into your box?
Of course, I’m a teacher, but then aren’t we all?
@ Simond
You regularly address people, in a kindly way, as if they are children, which made me wonder if you were or had been a teacher. Curiosity. Only that.
@ Simond.
Being triggered, getting buttons pressed can be energising, although probably because I no longer expect of myself I should be ‘flawless’. So liberating to settle into flawed, or what I would have labelled as flawed at one time
@Simond who wrote:
”Where I am more prejudiced is in the area of those who teach this consciousness stuff.”
The point I was trying to make is probably best illustrated by the following example:
I was walking through the local park years ago, and I had an experience which was probably one of the first times I had ever really understood that my reacting to something told me something about myself.
In fact I was angry because of an article I’d read in the paper, although I don’t remember the details, and I suddenly recalled, to my chagrin, an incident at 19 where I had been a complete shit to a guy I worked with. Although the reverse could have been true, because the anger could have been because the newspaper article reminded me of being mistreated, which I had had a lot of experiences of, and in that particular work situation.
So all I was suggesting is that because you felt so strongly about E.T. something like that might be going on for you, although not necessarily so.
PS:
Is prejudice ever any good about anything?
Arps, I think you are too literal-minded.
I coined the nickname “Rev.” for Simond years ago and due to constant use on your part, you seem to have started to believe that it is literally true.
@ Simond
“Know the reality of the moment and hold that knowing”
It’s not wishy-washy advice but a meditation technique similar to those 112 of VBT.
Satchit,
The VBT meditations that you are familiar with are poetic translations in English by Paul Reps in 1957 from c1500-year-old mystic verses in a dead language.
Eckhart Tolle is attempting to offer advice about how to deal with “jealousy or emotional pain of any kind” in English to an audience of self-improvers in the 21st century.
Your comparison is flimsy, but Tolle and his admirers would, I am sure, find it wonderful, and self-aggrandizing.
Frank.
This is just your glass is half-empty attitude versus Satchit’s glass is half-full tendency.
Glass half-full?
Sounds more like half-assed bull!
NO, no, no, Frank. Half-assed bull is you for Satchit.
Yes, Frankie, I should not aggrandize this ET.
In comparison to your Bhorat Guru, he is an unworthy Nothing.
Every disciple thinks his master is the one and only.
Cheers.
Perfectly correct, Satchit!
Swami Bhorat is pleased that you have finally reached!
Now he can retire to the Himalayas. His work is complete.
Satchit,
Is Swami Bhorat not the caricature of ‘the real Eastern One’?
Whereas ET in his case is the real presentation of a ‘real Western One’?
Real or not real. That’s the kvetching.
If we could read their minds. Yeah.
Yes, Klaus,
“What is real?” is a very old question.
Already old Tantra teachers asked it.
And they came to the conclusion that what comes and goes is not real.
Only the knowing of the moment is real.
ET revived this old teaching.
I did not want to hurt the feelings of Frank. But with Bhorat one has also to ask:
What is fake?
What not?
@ Frank
Re Swami Bhorat’s retirement
Does this mean your glove puppet days are over, Frank?
Satchit, you ask:
“What is real?”
This is a question worthy of deep consideration.
For example, take “The Laughing Gnome” by David Bowie. One of his more enigmatic and occult works, not entirely dissimilar to the VBT.
Consider the sutra:
“Ha ha ha, hee hee hee
I`m the laughing gnome and you can`t catch me”
Someone like yourself, in tune with the wisdom of the ancient tantrics would rightfully assume that it is a meditation on `what comes and goes is not real.`
On the other hand, more exact knowledge could reveal that it is what ET sings to himself backstage after the show whilst he is counting the takings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SQdBxVjZx4
@ Frank
Your Bowie Sutra goes about different perspectives, but the topic was witnessing.
@ Frank.
I coined the nickname “Rev.”
These senior moments of yours are starting to happen with alarming frequency.
You started to believe, by repetition, self-hypnosis even, that the `Rev` thing was literally true.
It`s the same with all these psycho-cliche ass-half-empty and victim triangle things.
If you have a metaphysical model where one-third are `victims`, that`s what you see when you look around. Then you start making bizarre claims like the next president of the US will be chosen according to how much of a victim he can prove him/herself.
I find this sort of `thinking` is common amongst the type of people who absorb too much psychobabble and/or maybe watch a lot of Jordan Peterson vids.
Thank you for sharing this with us, Frank. We want you to know your messages are very important to us.
@ Frank
If someone gave you £450 you would bitch about whoever gave the money for not giving you £500.
You could win gold medals for negativity and your capacity to always see everything in the worst possible light, along with your at times great sense of humour.
Frank is obviously an incarnation of evil with a wicked sense of humour, whose glass of dragon’s blood is half-empty. Out demons, out!
Yeah, Arpana, and where`s that £50 you owe me?
Arpana probably spent the money on a deluxe edition of ‘The Good Catholic Sannyasin Handbook’.
@ Satchit,
I’m painting and writing more intensely than usual at the moment.
@ Arps
So seems SN contact is good for your creativity.
Loco is also happy that he can provoke you again.
It is a win-win situation for all.
Btw, good picture.
In ancient times, long before Osho’s 20/20 vision became blurry, due to the master of masters’ stubborn refusal to wear specs, copious inhalations of nitrous oxide and one too many middle of the night tantric sessions, adjusting gullible female disciples’ chakras, something of great importance was recorded on the akashit records. Arpana had a psychotic episode due to too much dalliance with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi’s TM, something Osho compared to repeating Coca-Cola endlessly. When the mists of mantric maya cleared, Arpana discovered he had attained an unusual siddhi. He could blow his own whistle.
For decades Arpana has continued to blow his whistle, seduced by the fleeting and transitory experience of blowing his pesky whistle, much to the annoyance of his neighbours. Wherever PC Arpana goes the sound of him blowing his whistle is to be heard.
Osho warned that to a real master siddhis are like cufflinks, but Arpana paid no heed, believing a minor satori was in fact samadhi, wherein he mistakenly believes he has attained the ultimate and, in his own words, he understands what the whole game is about.
There is something for us all to be learned from poor PC Arpana’s plight. Blowing your own whistle is a mug’s game, even if you visited the Ranch twice, and will leave one feeling completely unintegrated, and screwed up, projecting one’s flawed self onto unflawed individuals, and imagining one is doing the best to make the best of their life. Thank you for this lesson, Beloved Arpana, namaste, his blessings.
In ancient times, long before Osho’s 20/20 vision became blurry, due to the master of masters’ stubborn refusal to wear specs, copious inhalations of nitrous oxide and one too many middle of the night tantrick sessions, adjusting gullible female disciples’ chakras, something of great importance was recorded on the akashit records. Lokesh had a psychotic episode due to too much dalliance with an acolyte of who was an acolyte of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi’s TM, something Osho compared to repeating Coca-Cola endlessly.
When the mists of mantric maya cleared, Lokesh discovered he had attained an unusual siddhi. He could blow his own whistle. For decades Lokesh has continued to blow his whistle, seduced by the fleeting and transitory experience of blowing his pesky whistle, much to the annoyance of his neighbours. Wherever PC Lokesh goes the sound of him blowing his whistle is to be heard.
Osho warned that to a real master siddhis are like cufflinks, but Lokesh paid no heed, believing a minor satori was in fact samadhi, wherein he mistakenly believes he has attained the ultimate and, in his own words, he is above the human condition.
Here is something for us all to be learned from poor PC Lokesh’s plight. Blowing your own whistle is a mug’s game, even if you never visited the Ranch, and will leave one feeling completely unintegrated, and screwed up, projecting one’s flawed self onto unflawed individuals, and imagining one is doing the best to make the best of their life.
Thank you for this lesson, dreary Scotch twat Lokesh, NOT.
Hmhm… names are just the hooks, my guess.
Take ‘Klaus’ for instance – only – and it would also fit. Occasionally at the very least. Wouldnt it?
By the way: fantastic prose, worthy of AY at the minimum!
Twiddledidumm and twiddlededee.
Arpana, you have moved on from parroting Osho to parroting me. Well done.
Even Bob Dylan makes mistakes:
‘Stayed in Mississippi a day too long…’
And next he writes a (lovely) song about it!
If you hear a squawk followed by a whistle, run. It’s PC Arpana.
PC Arpana is a very evolved soul. He once filled out a questionnaire for the Scientologists. Unfortunately, and as a direct consequence, he later underwent a psychotic episode and ran down the High Street brandishing his truncheon. Shocked pedestrians took refuge in a nearby bomb shelter.
It is possible that in a previous incarnation the PC lived on a planet vibrating at a higher frequency than our world, which one has to agree would account for his inability to cope down here, leaving him prone to aggressive verbal outbursts and indulging in strange online behaviour patterns wherein he copies and pastes other bloggers’ comments on SN, changes a few words and imagines himself to be incredibly intelligent to be indulging in such mundane practices and endangering readers’ lives by boring them to death. The fact that he is a born again Catholic sannyasin, who believes he is fulfilling Osho’s legacy, does not help. One can only hope that he keeps a firm grip on his truncheon before he injures himself.
Frank is absolutely correct when he surmises, “Many commentators these days suggest that some kind of dialogue is the only way through. This is in notoriously short supply as a brief browse online shows how much folks are locked into their echo-chambers and filter-bubbles.” We must do what we can to assure PC Arpana that we love and care for him, before he one day returns to the astral realm, where he will find eternal peace. His blessings….
@ the geriatrics’ geriatric DJ
I did fill out the Scientology Questionnaire. Had become interested in personality tests, so I approached them in the city centre where they badger shoppers to take the test. They were a bit nonplussed. They didn’t quite know how to handle willing victims.
The questionnaire is the most grotesque scam. Has questions, as you get down the page, it’s impossible to answer without showing yourself in a bad light. Heads you lose, tails you lose questions? The test is named Oxford something or other, which inevitably gives the bloody thing spurious credibility, but is in fact entirely devised by Scientologists and linked to Scientology prejudices.
At the interview after I’d finished the questionnaire they got straight into the selling scam and were telling me things about myself they deduced from the answers, which were just not true. They really play on people’s vulnerability.
You’ve obviously filled in the questionnaire. They would have fitted you into the knowing, pompous pensioner, Scotch Knobhead category.
https://youtu.be/xwS7F4wPCwI
Yet those aggressive verbal outbursts continue to surface. Perhaps those Scientologists were on to something, PC Arpana, hence your psychotic episode. Get well soon. Namaste.
@ Lokesh
I’ve had a great idea. Why don’t you write an article about your experiences with meditation? What you did and what you learned. How meditation affected you. I’m sure that would make fascinating reading.
Fascinating reading? I suppose that would depend on how well I wrote the article and what content I used.
The last time I considered writing an article for SN was last December. The topic would have been ‘death’. Four people I knew died that month, one of them a really good friend in Ibiza. She was a real ray of light, positive, funny, giving, a meditation and yoga instructor. She was an old school sannyasin who would dance at the drop of a hat. Fit as a fiddle, she died quite suddenly at the age of 66. Still can’t quite believe she is gone, although I talked to her body moments before she was cremated. I mourned her passing for about a month. Life goes on and my daily contemplations on the nature of death and how fleeting life is passed.
Today, I would not describe myself as a meditator as such. I endeavour to be present in whatever I am involved with, even when joking around on SN. The basic rule of thumb is to maintain a non-serious and playful attitude.
@ Lokesh
You? Playful! Non-serious!
You live in a fantasy world.
You could not be heavier and more serious if you tried.
(And before anyone attempts to finger point at me. I have not claimed to be non-serious and playful).
You said, “Today, I would not describe myself as a meditator as such.”
Well, that’s progress, a sign of a degree of self-awareness, although you didn’t need to tell me.
Pretty obvious you and anything to do with meditation are poles apart.
Associative thought being what it is reminded me of a song I had not heard in 50 years: ‘Mister, you’re a better man than I’ by the Yardbirds. Arpana, I think you are old enough to remember the band. So I listened to it…I like the music from that colourful epoch because rock bands sang about real things…like feeling you are superior to others etc. #
So, I listened to the song. Not bad and can be related to your above post. The guitar solo from Jimmy Page is not bad…probably played through a Marshall amp. So, Arpana, Mister, you’re a better man than I.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgC8iz_ALik
Wow!! Like thanks, man. Like what a playful non-serious response. Like wow man!!
Most exuberant song ever recorded. Totally uplifting:
https://youtu.be/cTaqn8_gMR0
I like the Isley Brothers. My favourite track by them is ‘Live it up’…’Fight the power’ a close second.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=live+it+up+the+isley+brothers
P.S:
I do not wear bell-bottom trousers.
@ Lokesh
By the way, I was really impressed with the playful, light-hearted way you dropped the term “psychotic” into your playful, light-hearted, non-serious exchange with me.
You’ve still got the expressions “fascist” and “Nazi” to use playfully and in a light-hearted, non-serious way. I look forward to that!!
φ(￣ー￣ )ノ
As the Lord Jesus was heard to say: “Seriousness is in the eye of the beholder.”
@Lokesh
What a surprise. You’ve redefined ‘serious’.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
There is a funny music video made by the German satirist/comedian Walter Moers:
“Adolf – Du alte Nazi-Sau” – No, I will never capitulate!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ifcg-wr95vQ
So, there is indeed a non-serious way to address this – still ongoing – topic.
I listen to it often as it feels relaxing and joyful to me… cathartic in a sense.
Reggae, a very good groove….
After some consideration, I’ve come to the conclusion that it is because of People like Arpana that Sannyas got such a bad name.
Meditation for today:
When drama outside, relax in knowing !
To get back to the topic…
It seems that the polarisations in all walks of life mentioned in the original article are exploding before our very eyes. It has been truly shocking to hear rumours of the Oshi`ites` and the Sunni`asins in some far-away Facebook land battling about the contents of their Koran, not to mention allegations of extreme financial and sexual impropriety and even murder.
Now, on SN, the Oshodom is also being dramatically and spectacularly riven. Catholic sannyasins with their hard-line doctrine on the one hand and the Protestants with their multitude of heresies on the other side. Not-so-cute catty Cats versus barking-mad Proddy dogs battling viciously for control or even some say, destruction of the legless legacy in no-holds-barred online combat.
Where once groups such as the Bogomils, Iconoclasts, Ranters, Leaguists and others roamed medieval Europe provoking an orgy of religious civil war, now various splinter groups roam SN like medieval spiritual brigands: Neo-papists, would-be grand-inquisitors, witnesses of both the Osho and Jehovah variety, unordained reverends, cod-psychologists, egotists, have-a-go Adventists, unacknowledged visionaries and mystics, various spiritual skinhead lineages, the mind, and even garden-gnome cultists savaging each other with Youtube clips, their projections, toilet humour, badly
thought out arguments and one-liners, all with terrifying consequences for the future of consciousness.
I think we can safely say, along with Dante entering the gates of Hell:
“Abandon hope all ye who enter here.”
Congratulations, Frank, at least, unlike Lokesh, you are not deluding yourself you are above it all.
Yes, Frank, jolly good show. You are obviously what Arpana would describe as a ‘good egg’, even though Arpana is obviously a scrambled egg, who thinks it would be a cracking idea to turn Osho’s 9/11 vision into an OMlette.
No, it’s Armageddon.
On the Battlefield:
In the left and red corner:
Shanti and Arpana.
In the right and blue corner:
Frank and Loco.
Gonggggg!!!
My feeling is you are not taking this very seriously, Satchit!!
Your feeling is right, Arps.
Tell me if you need help on the battlefield!
We’re fine. Satchit. You just sit back and enjoy the show.
Ah! `Tis a papist plot of the most vile nature.
The treacherous, mindless Austrian has left off playing with his sausage and drinking Alzheimer pils and is siding with the papists!
`Tis little surprise, as between them, they could muster up less intelligence and understanding of Osho`s vision than the scrapings from a one-eyed baboon with myopia`s heavily poxed pizzle!
Pass me my arquebus, Bardolph, let us see how this three-inch fool`s lederhosen protects him from a grapeshot of hot lead.
Let him then call his so-called psychologist to assess whether his ass is thence half-full or half-empty and how much of a victim he is thereof.
Although Grand Inquisitor Clouseau de Torquemarapana pretends to great faith in our Lord, not only are his attempts to persecute his superiors and betters with argumentation less convincing and coherent than that usually heard coming from the mouths of severely brain-damaged mutes whose tongues have been cut out and pickled in aspic but also the depraved truth is this:
Convincing evidence has surfaced indicating that he has secretly spent many years in his monk`s cell relieving himself lasciviously and lewdly in the most carnal fashion whilst listening to the teachings of the mountebanks Jordanus Petersonius and Thom Hollandius. He was also once even caught `in flagrante` attempting to abuse a gnome in a garden centre, later claiming that he was “getting into Eckhart Tolle.”
A solemn jury of impartial witnesses are now deciding whether this kind of behaviour is an acceptable part of Osho`s vision and an officially sanctioned way of getting his legacy over.
A quick glance at discussions on the Pune 1 and Ranch Facebook sites would indicate that, in fact, it may well be.
Ahh, this to me is an abominable crux of a climax.
If this wording is indeed possible in the English vernacular.
High Five hundred from me!!
MOD:
Klaus, “abominable crux” literally means a very bad, unpleasant basic or essential point or feature. Is that what you mean?
KLAUS:
Ah, interesting!
I meant it as ‘a lovely exaggeration of a caricature’.
Meaning: appreciatively the opposite…:)))
These were indeed the words that came to my mind…so I hope Frank gets it in the right way.
Yes, indeed, Klaus, is Frank getting it in the right way? This is the question on everyone’s lips right now. I’ve scrolled through all the sannyasin Facebook pages but there is absolutely no mention of this, and therefore no answer. Time to fall back on that old Osho nugget, life is a mystery to be lived….
“It is like floating along on the crest of a wave it’s like maaaagic….”
If that is indeed the case, then the evidence is unequivocal leaving this court no option other than to invoke “De heretico comburendo” and to charge Arpana not only with committing subversion of the said catholic faith by the heinous crimes not only of reading the Bible and remembering the steamy bits and pronouncing an unordained commoner to be “Rev”, but also the unforgivable apostasy of watching YT vids of other teachers than Our Lord.
He has moved round the drama triangle from perpetrator to victim and in this case, there will be no rescuer.
He is hereby sentenced to be burnt at the stake. May the Lord have mercy on all oursouls!
As for Shanti. If he cannot produce a theologically sound doctrinal definition of an ex-sannyasin, he will also be thrown in the holy fires of Hell, there to cleanse his soul in eternal damnation.
Amen
@ Frank.
You’ve always struck me as damn near impossible to provoke.
Sheesh! I certainly managed to provoke you this time.
Your counterattack has used eight times more words than all my remarks put together.
Have to give you credit. This is as funny and witty as anything Anand yogi says when he’s using you like a glove puppet. Delighted you’ve found your own voice.
ε-(´・｀) ﾌ Phew!
I take that back. Verbose is your middle name. You would never use 5 words when you could use 1000. Mind you that’s true of old mouth and trousers.
Thanks for making me the object of one of your bitchfests.
The moment for falling on one`s knees in snivellous entreaty, grovelling dissimulation and with disingenuous blandishments is long past.
The fires of Hell await. Satan the persecutor is already heating his poker in keen anticipation for another victim who has only himself to blame, whilst giving careful consideration as to whether to take the ass half-full or ass half-empty approach.
Aaww, Frank. You’re such an old softie!!
Just showing a bit of Christian kindness.
Don`t be so cynical, and give Satchit a break. The poor chap`s obviously not very well.
He has had his sense of humour surgically removed, an operation that can lead to very serious complications.
Don’t worry Frank, my sense of humour is still functioning.
It was a joke that you can become a Buddha immediately.
“It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle
than for a cynic to become enlightened.”
And seeing the multitudes on SN, Our Lord went up into a mountain, opened his mouth, and taught them, saying:
“Blessed are the parrots, for they flap around and squawk, and though their cages be knee-deep in the last century’s guano, I say unto you: they have no idea what they are talking about.
Blessed are those with their ass half-full for they will be pretty much full of shit.
Blessed are the cynics, for, these days, no matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up.
Blessed are the piss-takers for they shall be given a backstage pass to the kingdom of Heaven.”
Amen.
Have you heard this version of your anthem, Frank?
https://youtu.be/zov2UIJfiaU
Uuuuuaaahhhh, that sounds very much like a very rocky and horrorful picture show!! Including some rather terrible munsters.
“Pick a Winner?” just like Herman?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB5SX76s3yc
Frankie, you have so much potential.
You could be a Buddha immediately.
But what are you doing?
You waste your time in funniness.
Satchit,
Yes, I am a daft Buddha.
Frank said, ”Just showing a bit of Christian kindness.”
And that’s why I sent you the video about Tom Palmer, Frank, because you’re such a good Christian, but sadly you got defensive because you didn’t want him who you take far too seriously to know, so you overreacted; and frankly, Frank, you have been a bit of a **** about this I am somewhat saddened to tell you.
Woah, I love the conversation going on here!
It is such a great opportunity for throwing around words of all kinds and all shapes and all sizes in whichever order one not chooses.
Wonderful!
Keep ‘em coming and going – no eats or wets in them…for my feelings….
MOD:
Hi Klaus, what does “no eats or wets in them” mean?
KLAUS:
“Eats meets Wets” in my memory was something Alan Watts said in relation to the “East-West-Lifestyle”…so it is allegorical…
There is a blog here =…
https://www.rose-rosetree.com/blog/2011/01/27/enlightened-enlightenment-alan-watts-alcoholic-buddhism-energetic-literacy/
I would not take it too literally, though. A lot of word play.
Klaus,
Your pleasure, delight, tickles me pink.
Arpana
That could be a vicious cycle! Unless you’re being sarcastic…just a little bit?
@ Klaus
Not even vaguely sarcastic. Your enjoyment of the show made me laugh, and not in a bad sense. Glass is half-full attitude.
Some of our viewers will be seething with disapproval, but actually revelling in feeling superior. Getting their jollies off.
I know you’re still out there, Tony, you sanctimonious coward!!!!!
Thanks, Arpana, for the encouragement!
There is a hugely creative, lovely, intelligent and inspiring side to this site here. My feelings.
Where else can you get that?
We are working through things, too, until we are breaking through to the other side:
flip-flopping between ‘ego and awareness/beingness/consciousness’
- and feeling the pain in it.
You can see that I watched some Vishrant. “No no, no new age crap there.
Just for the truth in it….”
“Just a little bit” – Gordon Lightfoot (new in 2020)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvflGuDotbo
Cheers many.
@ Klaus 17 February 2022 at 9:25 pm
Yes, I agree. A mixture of chaos and order. Destruction and creativity. Reaction and response.
Is love on SannyasNews ‘lying in wait’?
James Hill’s uke extravaganca (2013) is singing about it here:
https://youtu.be/vhmzLKSHrRg?t=160
“…it is bigger than we are – so let us make it happen….”
Musical conversation at its finest.
Peter Gabriel famously sings of his wish:
“Ohhh, I wish it would rain down, down on meee!”
I guess he is certainly wishing that it isn’t raining down ‘the shit after it hit the fan and flew high.’
Rather he wishes for the raining down of blessings?
@ Klaus
I saw him live, just after he ceased to be the backbone of phenomenal prog-rockers Genesis, and before the band turned into ***?@@@#~.
https://youtu.be/e3yckgRec_o
Arpana,
So wonderful!
Yeah, I am a Genesis fan, too…a lot of my English stems from their lyrics and listening to the records: Lamb Lies Down, Foxtrot, Selling England, Wind & Wuthering etc.
Saw Peter Gabriel’s ‘Growing up’ Tour in Germany around 1989 or something…rather fantastic.
@ Klaus
I have a friend who is from Chile whose English is excellent and which he speaks with a strong accent, but he can recite the lyrics to Led Zeppelin in the same voice and accent as Robert Plant, who was born not far from where I live.
Arpana
A hell of a lot of unbelievably creative musicians come from England / UK.
Is it because of the lush countryside with the rolling green hills and else?
I really do not know.
The British art school system was changed after the second world war and there’s a theory that says that the explosion of sixties music in the UK happened because of that.
https://justpaste.it/60b7c
Reams have been written.
Top read, thanks a lot ::))
@ Klaus.
Here’s a notion…
The vast majority, and I mean vast majority, of individuals who came to Sannyas in the early days of the mala and red clothes time in the 70s, Poona One time, had been heavily influenced, had been touched by the Beatles and the Stones and Pink Floyd etc. and we related to each other, not just through our interest, sense of connection to Osho and Sannyas, but also because of our shared interest, mutual interest in the music of the 50s and more particularly the 60s and 70s.
Further to that, the music we loved so much was so much part of our lives, was the water in which we swam, was an anchor to the sense of identity, or certainly for many of us, an anchor to our sense of identity we came to Sannyas with, although I would also add books and reading to that, for many of us.
Addendum:
Then of course we were all unwittingly Christian or anti-Christian, conforming to Christian ethics unwittingly or telling ourselves we were rebelling against Christian ethics, again unwittingly; which many of us at the time would have perceived as so reprehensible it would have been impossible to acknowledge; indeed for some of our fellow travellers even now, to even mention Christianity as having played a part in our lives, as affecting our lives, is utterly reprehensible.
Without Christianity, there would have been no rock `n` roll.
Soul music was at the beginning largely a matter of taking gospel music, exchanging the words `God’ and ‘Jesus’ for ‘she’, ‘my love’ etc.
Would Zorba the Buddha have been a viable prospect without the prior existence of Elvis, Chuck Berry etc. and its influence on youth?
Maybe not.
But in a way, it was shadow Christianity. Either rising up from the oppressed black population or from the fact that music had been so cerebral and bodiless for so long, something just had to give.
So it was probably both Christianity and its breakdown and rejection that created the unique tension that was at the root of it all.
@ Frank.
I owe you an apology. I was expecting you to put the boot in; but yes, that is absolutely my point. That is why I found Tom Holland’s premise so interesting, why his premise really struck a chord with me, despite whatever phrases he may have come out with which were outlandish.
In the early 80s, after ashram time ended, I became aware, before Sannyas, despite being identified with atheism and anti-Christianity, anti-religious, my moral compass was not separate unconsciously from the 10 commandments, plus another 6 Christian notions if you will, and even now part of my moral compass is “do unto others as you would be done by”, and “judge not lest ye be judged”, but not in the monumentally overbearing way Christian values impacted on my life in the early days of the connection to Osho. (Certainly at that point in my life I’ve a feeling I was horribly bloody caught up in the notion of turning the other fucking cheek, which thank fucking God I’ve got over!)/
10 commandments – 17 actually.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. メ
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy メ
Honour thy father and thy mother メ
Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Thou shalt not covet (neighbour’s house)
Thou shalt not covet (neighbour’s wife)
Thou shalt not covet (neighbour’s slaves, animals, or anything else)
Be a good Samaritan.
‘Tis better to give than receive. メ
Let he was amongst you is innocent cast the first stone. Judge not lest you be judged.
Turn the other cheek メ
Do unto others as you would be done by.
lLove thy neighbour as thyself .
It is better to give than receive. メ
I have speculated that in the early days of Sannyas, we baby-boomers were heavily conflicted between the Christian conservative values of our parents and schoolteachers, and the anti-Christian, anti-conservative values of our peers. Indeed, I have even wondered if what happened in Oregon wasn’t something to do with that internal conflict coming to a head.
Arps, thanks for that. Hearing the 10 commandments again is a welcome reminder on how deeply spiritual I am in the eyes of the Lord.
I haven`t killed anybody, done any burglary, committed perjury or adultery much, I don`t fancy my neighbour, I live in a semi so I don`t covet her gaff, I haven`t nicked her cat or even mentioned her slaves.
I think I will have to drop in on the local vicar and inform him that I`m well on the way to Christian heaven. Alleluia!
Btw,
The 10 Commandments weren`t really Christian anyway.
The bit I didn`t get of that biblical story was how a bunch of guys on the way from Egypt to Israel could get lost wandering in the desert for 40 years. Have you seen a map?
Burning too much bush I expect. And Moses with his tablets. Bunch of wasters.
@ Frank
I’m sure the Lord is well pleased, and let’s face it, at your time of life, better safe than sorry.
https://youtu.be/04v-SdKeEpE
I had a chat with the vicar last night.
He assured me that according to the Protestant doctrine of ‘Total Depravity” (also called ‘radical corruption’ or ‘pervasive depravity’) which is derived from the concept of original sin, I`m in the clear. It works like this: seeing as how man is unable to free himself from selfishness, there`s nothing he can do, and he just has to rely on whether the Big Boss wants to save him or not.
The Rev. made a couple of phone calls to upstairs and it turns out I`m on the list of the `elect`, the saved.
So bollocks to meditation and all that crap, I`m just gonna kick back and enjoy until my number comes up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEvy8mROAj0
@Frank
He’s probably one of those vicars who can’t handle the real e=mc2. Faced with someone of your spiritual calibre he cracked under the weight of his own contradictions.
Yeah, the motivating freedoms coming with Rock’n Roll:
‘Natural Thing’ – Steve Gibbons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0BoFrXlZjE
“Teacher preacher said to me:
keep your body clean
… wash your dirty mind…
Keep your thoughts right away
from things – that can send you blind….”
The incomprehensiveness of the Christian sayings…are still so today.
‘Light Up Your Face’ – Steve Gibbons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07dFcgOgFUA
“Jumping from joy – like a newborn boy”
Another input:
Without the cold in the Canadian town of Winnipeg there would not have been the Winnipeg music scene:
In the long winters, everybody disappeared into the house – or the cellar – and started practising some musical instrument. And then created the next band:
The Guess Who
Burton Cummings
Randy Bachman
Neil Young
Bachman Turner Overdrive
Tom Holland is a bit like you, Frank. He gets carried away with the sound of a perfectly crafted phrase, even if that phrase is a load of old bollocks.
I notice that Osho News seems to have been defunct for over a month.
Did they get cancelled!?
Or just given up the ghost?
Quite dramatic as their last post was Jan 19 article with a picture of Osho`s funeral pyre.
Spiritual holiday.
They are on a break until next month.
Thought they might have popped their clogs.
Have you seen this?:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/feb/23/does-life-flash-before-your-eyes-brain-scan-of-dying-man-suggests-its-possible
It also reminded me of the Terry Pratchett quote:
“It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it’s called Life.”
It’s worth bearing in mind that the brain can also continue functioning for half an hour or more after decapitation.
Yes, and apparently, studies show that in many cases, decapitation can increase intelligence levels .
I wonder where those kind of studies were conducted. Syria?
They seem to be on another month’s break….
It’s a shame that there aren’t more places where sannyasins come together for a world-spanning chat, discussing the words of Osho and what the encounter has meant to them. It’s true that dialogue has never been given much importance in the sannyas world, and maybe rightly so, but if you look at the buddhist world, there is the concept of the sangha which is given a lot of importance.
It seems to me that trying to foster dialogue between all kinds of polarised groups is a mammoth task, and just trying to bring sannyasins closer together is difficult enough. It’s all very well to be a light unto yourself, but would it not be good if sannyasins were a support for each other as well?
Anyway, aye to the idea of discussion as a way forward.
Nityaprem wrote:
“It’s true that dialogue has never been given much importance in the sannyas world.”
Surprised at that remark. My experience of engaging with others connected to Osho, face to face, is of constant sharing of personal issues.
Welcome to Sannyas News.
May you live long and prosper.
Tell us a bit about your experiences as a kid at the Ashram.
Hi Arpana!
In Poona 1 there was a period in 1979 where if you took a right turn after coming through the Ashram gate you’d end up in a little garden where there was a tree in the middle which was good for climbing, and often I could be found in its branches with a collection of comic books.
My English wasn’t very good at the time, but I remember being welcome pretty much everywhere. It was a fun time, I even had a darshan with Osho with my mother and father, during which he asked me if I had any questions, and I said no. I recall the wave of laughter that triggered in the auditorium.
@ Nityaprem
I remember that garden.
Do you still enjoy comics? I do.
Just finished reading Y – The Last Man. (1-10 (2003-2008) Again?
@ Nityaprem
I used to sit in the garden and write my daily journal, and I can remember being badgered by some kid or other as often as not because you were all the bloody same, you had your noses into everything.
I really enjoyed the place having kids around. Pulled us away from being so serious all the time. (⑅ノ-_-)ノ~┻━┻
N.B: The symbol means giving the bird to the seriousness
Although it has to be said I am nearly an old fogey myself by this time, the grand age of 50 is creeping up on me. It has to be said the biggest difference I have noticed so far is that I can no longer read up close with my glasses on, I have to take them off.
I do, yes, from time to time. I read the Eternals comic by Neil Gaiman not so long ago, and I enjoyed his Sandman series which Netflix is making into a live-action series. I’ve given up collecting them though, there’s too much of attachment and materialism in that. I found that collect enough stuff that you’re attached to, and then you will need a house to store it in, and then you’ll get attached to that, and there might be a leak in the roof, and you’ll have to care for the garden…
I take comics in limited doses these days, same as TV and movies. It’s a question of what is truly wholesome and beneficial in life, and often I prefer to read a spiritual book or listen to a lecture. That feels more right than watching some action hero killing bad guys.
“I take comics in limited doses these days, same as TV and movies.”
You’ve cracked Osho Sannyas.
Although…
“and then you will need a house to store it in, and then you’ll get attached to that, and there might be a leak in the roof, and you’ll have to care for the garden” might be going too much the other way.
Which led me to recall the following song”
“There’s a hole in the bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza,
There’s a hole in the bucket, dear Liza,
There’s a hole.
Then fix itm dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
Then fix it dear Henry, dear Henry, fix it.
With what should I fix it, dear Liza, dear Liza,
With what should I fix it, dear Liza, with what?
With a straw, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
With a straw, dear Henry, dear Henry, with a straw.
But the straw is too long, dear Liza, dear Liza,
The straw is too long, dear Liza, too long.
Then cut it dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
Then cut it dear Henry, dear Henry, cut it!
With what shall I cut it, dear Liza, dear Liza,
With what shall I cut it, dear Liza, with what?
With an axe, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
With an axe, dear Henry, an axe.
But the axe is too dull, dear Liza, dear Liza,
The axe is too dull, dear Liza, too dull.
Then, sharpen it, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
Then sharpen it dear Henry, dear Henry, sharpen it!
With what should I sharpen it, dear Liza, dear Liza,
With what should I sharpen, dear Liza, with what?
With a stone, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
With a stone, dear Henry, dear Henry, a stone.
But the stone is too dry, dear Liza, dear Liza,
The stone is too dry, dear Liza, too dry.
Then wet it, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
Then wet it, dear Henry, dear Henry, wet it.
With what should I wet it, dear Liza, dear Liza,
With what should I wet it, dear Liza, with what?
With water, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
With water, dear Henry, dear Henry, with water.
But how shall I get it? dear Liza, dear Liza,
But how shall I get it? dear Liza, with what?
In the bucket, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
In the bucket, dear Henry, dear Henry, in the bucket!
But there’s a hole in the bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza,
There’s a hole in the bucket, dear Liza, a hole.
There’s a hole.”
“It’s a question of what is truly wholesome and beneficial in life, and often I prefer to read a spiritual book or listen to a lecture. That feels more right than watching some action hero killing bad guys.”
Nityaprem, does this preference extend to rationing your exposure to the news, especially on tv, well over 90% of which consists of the most negative events and situations (and where no doubt they’re currently really enjoying piling it on re Ukraine)?
I’m tempted to tune in for the ‘excitement’, including the feelings of outrage at the horror of it all, but have resolved not to bother as I don’t want my psyche even more contaminated by such images, political double-talk and fearful speculation re the possible consequences for us all.
I’m bound to come across at least bits and pieces of this news of course, whether newspaper headlines or overhearing random radio accounts, but I know I’ll be better off avoiding it, switching my attention to “what is truly wholesome and beneficial in life”, as you say.
Who knows, there may come a time when we are able to witness the processes amounting to ‘the end of the world’ at home on our tv screens – watched, no doubt, by the largest audiences of all time? Who needs fictional murders, war films or any other tales of desperate suffering inflicted on people by other people when the real thing is just a click of a switch away? Some might say that time’s already here (and has been for quite a while)….
“…does this preference extend to rationing your exposure to the news, especially on tv, well over 90% of which consists of the most negative events and situations (and where no doubt they’re currently really enjoying piling it on re Ukraine)?”
Absolutely. A few years ago I was looking at how much of my news consumption actually impacted my life, and it turned out almost none of it was relevant, it was just entertainment. Then when you come down to what is wholesome and beneficial, how much of entertainment around knowing current events is not just stimulating worry or morbid curiosity?
I do read the news once or twice a day, I have a website where I skim the headlines. Once in a long while I will read the front page of The Guardian or The New York Times, but I don’t subscribe to any papers or regularly watch TV news.
The idea being to keep up with the important news, such as covid restrictions, while not getting drawn into the world news in general.
Nityaprem,
I like your comment.
Bhagwan/Osho put the Sangha before the Dharma in the gacchamis. For a reason.
I have this mild longing to be among loving, like-minded individuals with an approach to meditation, too.
Just appreciative of our individual – and common – effort to raise one’s consciousness beyond worldly strife, competition and waste of resources plus time.
Cheers, everybody.
Keep on exchanging whatever we have and wherever we are.
Hi Klaus,
Yes he did, when I came across the Buddhist form of the Three Refuges I wondered about the order of the gacchamis as we chanted them on the Ranch. But he did say “I’m not here to give you more knowledge” so perhaps the importance of the dharma was less in his eyes.
Then again, the parts of the Buddhist dharma that I have enjoyed have come as a revelation of truth that I somewhere already knew. Those are the bits that make real lasting change. And you can still find them in Osho’s lectures and also elsewhere these days.
To be exchanging thoughts with meditation-minded people is always a pleasure, there are a few little oases on the internet (I’m not a fan of Facebook).
Klaus,
Terrific version of ‘Space Oddity’.
The opening sequence is particularly uplifting!!
https://youtu.be/LYl74O0G-fs?list=RDLYl74O0G-fs
Thanks, Arps, I enjoyed that, lovely communal sound.
I was watching the opening sequence and suddenly became aware I had a big grin on my face. That beginning is ”y fantastic”, and the song is perfect for what they were doing.
I enjoyed it too, although I don’t think I have ever heard the original. David Bowie I guess? I currently have a three-month trial of Apple Music’s all-you-can-eat streaming service, I might look it up.
Someone who has never heard ‘Space Oddity’ by Bowie?
Wow.
I didn`t even think that would be possible!
Life is full of surprises!
Klaus,
Great dance track…
https://youtu.be/VaWIjB982o0
Hi Arpana
Thanks for the links and the nice reminders…
I feel a bit wiped out due to a few acupuncture sessions…uhhhhh, the effects.
In effect, I rest a lot and am taking things very slowly.
::))
This is more my style…
https://youtu.be/aatr_2MstrI
Haha: 1.1 billion views
+100,000 comments.
And I’d never heard of it.
Good one!
Yeah, it’s all about where your bubble takes you…I remember I used to get all my music from listening to the radio and making mix-tapes, nowadays the temptation is to listen to what YouTube’s algorithm pulls up for you.
Recently I have been getting back into internet radio, it has all changed, there is too much choice, I’ve gotten lost….
Hi Nityaprem,
Thanks for these comments and welcome to the topic.
Here are some relevant points (from an advocate of The Work of Byron Katie) to help engender worthwhile discussions with people of opposing points of view. (Worth sending to the likes of Messrs. Putin, Biden & co.? Of course not! Which pretty well sums up the dysfunctional state of the world, which appears to ensure that things will get worse, maybe far worse ‘out there’, before they ever improve).
Not necessarily easy but we’ve got to start somewhere….
Navigating the Divided Landscape
Division is sown deeply in today’s world. It seems almost anything can become a political wedge. You’ll recognize these issues because they almost invariably cause stress as people scramble to take sides.
Vaccines, abortion, religion, diet, the environment… these are just a few of the hot topics of the day. Whether it’s liberal vs. conservative, race against race, or religion vs. religion, the world wants us to draw hard lines against each other and fight.
How can you navigate these dangerous waters where one wrong turn can destroy your ship? One way is to never set sail, of course. But that’s not the only way to remain unstressed in today’s world.
Is It Possible to Participate in Divisive Discussions Without Getting Overwhelmed?
Is it possible to even be passionate about something without being stressed? It all depends on how you see it.
Stress, in my experience, comes from attachment and fear. When I’m attached to being right, I feel threatened when someone challenges me. When I fear disapproval, I hide my views from others.
What if those attachments and fears were not there? Would the same discussions be as stressful?
Let’s Take Vaccines for Example
There are two camps with vaccines: 1. they are really important and, 2. they are dangerous. These couldn’t be more diametrically opposed points of view. Moreover, it’s all or nothing: either you get vaccinated or you don’t. There’s no middle ground.
If you look more closely, the topic revolves around fear on both sides: fear that the pandemic will be worse without the vaccines on one side, and fear that vaccines will make health worse on the other side. Both sides are driven by fear.
This makes any discussion between two fearful people on opposite sides a very emotional discussion. Each is fighting for survival. And that makes each see the other as the enemy to be destroyed at all costs—not a very conducive environment for peaceful discussion.
But What If Each Side Questioned Its Fearful Thinking?
If you’re accustomed to doing The Work of Byron Katie, you’re no stranger to questioning fears. It’s very simple, yet profound. Here is a belief that could be questioned from either side.
The other camp threatens my health (or wealth, or freedom).
How do you react, when you believe this thought? The whole story of conflict is built into this one thought and its variations on either side.
Without it, the mind starts to see good people on the other side again. Similarities begin to dominate instead of charged differences. Though we may still disagree, we can now have an interesting discussion and enjoy connecting, instead of fearing the other like an enemy.
I Am Right, Is It True?
This is another thought that gets in the way of harmony and love. Who would you be without the thought, “I am right?” I would be listening, putting all my cards out on the table. There would be no charge. And if, in the end, it’s unclear what is true, the discussion would not get stuck on that. There is no need to find an absolute truth. When both sides are open, they realize that there is always truth on both sides.
This is how humans interact when they are not stressed: they respect each other, they listen carefully, they share opposing points of view with kindness and without force. But this way of interacting is only possible when the mind is not attached to being right.
I encourage you to notice your stressful thoughts on this or any other divisive issue. Question your stressful thoughts (filling in a Judge-Your-Neighbour Worksheet on someone can be helpful in identifying the thoughts to question). Then see if there might be a way to find the middle ground that is neither fighting nor fleeing the discussion — a way that feels peaceful inside, even when others are defensive.
If you want to practise doing this work, I encourage you to take The Work 101 course starting in April. In that course, you will spend time unravelling the thoughts that bind you, whatever they may be.
Very interesting, Satyadeva, I’m not familiar with Byron Katie’s writings. It’s certainly one way to approach these things.
When I am passionate about something, it’s as if the words come more easily. There is a flow that happens, a naturalness. But I tend not to let myself get dragged into exchanges, it tends to be counterproductive.
Similarly, when people talk about highly emotive subjects where they feel their health or wealth is being threatened, my thinking tends to be about letting go. If suffering is caused by clinging, why would you not just relax your grip and let go?
Sounds sensible to me, Nityaprem.
Does the Byron Katie system work if you are up against people who claim that the vaccine has been designed by Bill Gates to euthanize the world population and/or that Putin has invaded Ukraine so as he can liberate subterranean children farms run by blood-drinking, Nazified, drug-addicted pedophiles?
To be fair, I guess every psychological system has its limits.
@ Frank. 26 February 2022 at 4:33 pm
You may be suffering from extremely unrealistic expectations methinks, old bean!
Exactly.
@ Frank.
I may have misunderstood Byron Katie, indeed I have never paid her much attention, but where is she claiming her method can bring an end to all the horrors of life?
I guess one has to use one’s common sense and withdraw from the sort of situation you mention, Frank. Pointless to fight against a brick wall – think Jehovah’s Witnesses, for example.
I’m not a BK ‘graduate’ but I’ve had some exposure to her processes (via my partner) and can see their value.
I think the point of BK’s ‘Work’ is first to create an inner space of clarity by examining and thus eliminating inner conflict and disturbance via a rigorous process of self-honesty rather than learning ‘tricks’ or ‘systems’ for winning arguments.
And if you find it a struggle to maintain equilibrium under certain circumstances then it’s back to the self-questioning process.
I reckon Jehovah’s Witnesses also know when to cut their losses and run. I saw on a docu that they have a role-playing process they do to train before they go out door-to-door, which explains why they left rather sharpish when I answered their opening questions at my front door a few years ago.
‘Space Oddity’ – David Bowie.
https://youtu.be/iYYRH4apXDo
I guess any training is an attempt to mitigate future surprise.
Maybe that is why any `life training` will be necessarily incomplete.
The way life is, `be prepared` will regularly be trumped by `be surprised`, whatever the spiritual boy scouts say!
Frank wrote, ”I guess any training is an attempt to mitigate future surprise.”
That’s an interesting comment. I can see where you’re going with the statement. Oblige me and expand on what you’ve written.
Arps, I would love to. Nothing I like better than a bit of philosophising on a lazy Sunday afternoon.
Think of a game of sport or chess.
Training, which is a repetition of various actions and tactics that happen away from the actual game that could be defined as habits developed with the aim of essentially not being surprised by the opposition.
A simple example in football would be you plan to mark and cut off the opposition`s star player so he doesn`t do anything you don`t want him to. Or in chess, if an opponent is so skilled that he knows from the move that you make, all the other possible moves from then on, you are lost. That is why computers can beat grandmasters. The computer programme cannot be surprised.
To apply this to what the BK guy was saying about remaining unattached or unfearful in polarised situations. This is like a training session in that you read or listen to him, entertain his ideas, then ask yourself honest questions about the true motivation behind your opinions, etc. At this point, you are not actually in a dispute defined by one of the polarities mentioned. This is like a training ground session as opposed to an actual match. The listener is saying “Yeah, I will stay chilled, ask myself honestly whether I`m afraid or fucked-up and not take sides by taking deep breaths”, or whatever
Of course, in games that incorporate human error, the best trained and most tactically proficient teams/competitors don`t always win.
In the same way, the keenest meditators/psychologists/inner workers, no matter how many hours they`ve clocked on the mat, how many searing honest questions they have confronted themselves with, and how much inner work they have done to become calm or reasonable off the pitch, might, under the pressure of real-time activities kick off, lose it, stick the boot in, get irrational, egotistical, lie, nick stuff, get inappropriately sexy or whatever.
I suppose that the BK idea is to replace the normal game: “I know I`m right and will defeat the wrong” with another type of game: “I am aware of my need to be right but I will train towards not being imprisoned by that idea because I feel that by this process, I will achieve a more satisfactory level of `rightness`.”
To quote Sri Sri Bruce Forsyth:
“Good game, good game.”
Fucking awesome, Frank. I’m going to save the reply to Instapaper to read through more fully a few times.
Basically, we are talking here about finding the balance between order and chaos, routine and spontaneity, technique and creativity. Habit and spontaneity.
Joking apart, I really am impressed with your reply and I WILL have to read through the reply a few times.
Yahoo.
( ᐛ )و
@ Frank.
I put the post through Grammarly.
https://justpaste.it/4cz9a
@Frank
Generally speaking, water colour painyers are stuck in technique. Seen one, seen them all.
Here’s a water colour paining not bogged down in technique.
@ Frank who wrote.
”In the same way, the keenest meditators/psychologists/inner workers, no matter how many hours they`ve clocked on the mat, how many searing honest questions they have confronted themselves with and how much inner work they have done to become calm or reasonable off the pitch, might, under the pressure of real-time activities kick-off, lose it, stick the boot in, get irrational, egotistical, lie, nick stuff, get inappropriately sexy or whatever.”
Further to that, I would add, it’s possible for a meditator to kick off and react and just accept that reactivenes, not judge, which it seems to me changes kicking off into something else, a bit closer, certainly somewhere between response and reaction, maybe even an extension of responsive??
To be in a state of meditation is to be closer to an aware rather than unaware amorality, and then sensibility prevents inappropriate behaviour rather than morality or conscience.
Arpana, you say: “It’s possible for a meditator to kick off and react and just accept that reactiveness, not judge, which it seems to me changes kicking off into something else.”
Does it change the kicking off into something else?
But at least it can give relief from guilt and possible negative self-talk about not being able to stop kicking off.
Back to the sport analogy, there is so much money in sport these days that they seem to think of everything. I heard that if a player makes a big mistake, for example, missing an open goal, it is part of the training to teach to try to drop those self-defeating thoughts as fast as possible so that they don`t lead to distraction, loss of confidence and hence, further blunders.
Most guilt is a hangover from childhood, and parental or churchy injunctions.
Not appropriate to feel guilty about giving Lokesh the evil eye when he acts like a headmaster.
@Frank
The remarks about kicking off were musing out loud, certainly not an absolute statement.
Imo, developing positive self talk is beneficial, but needs balance.
I got into actively looking for the positive, thinking positively in my twenties, but didn’t realise I was repressing negative ”thoughts”, and that came back and bit me in the arse a few years later after Poona 1.
Sometimes yes to no is a good thing.
Arpana said: “Most guilt is a hangover from childhood, and parental or churchy injunctions.”
In those moments when you are really sensitive to your nature, don’t you find that there is kindness, gentleness and love at the root of it? That is my experience. Guilt sometimes pokes me when some conditioned response has triggered me to be other than kind. And that’s not a bad thing, it is a reminder that we sometimes come off the rails.
I never really comment upon the manifestation of what I will, for brevity’s sake, refer to as my “better nature”; but that is likely because from very young my inner monologue was mostly tied up with what I perceived as my failings, and I developed an idea very young that to say anything positive about myself was egotistical.
So although that inner monologue and that attitude to myself has shrunk dramatically, gone to some extent in the other direction, I have never consistently observed that better nature in action, in a way that leads to remarks, self remarks, although that has happened much more, more recently.
That is not meant as a criticism of you or criticism of what you’ve just said, is not meant as a criticism of you for observing your own “better nature”.
Arpana, you say, “I never really comment upon the manifestation of what I will, for brevity’s sake, refer to as my “better nature”….” Having an hour before already declared that you’d “donated 500 quid to the Red cross Ukraine relief fund, Lokesh” and “babysat the Ukrainian neighbour’s two kids, three nights in a row, probably tonight as well.”
Doesn’t sit well with me: I mean experiencing one’s “better nature” is one thing, wholly desirable and the more the better, but ‘broadcasting’ it to demonstrate one’s ‘goodness’, generosity, ‘spirit of service’, thereby claiming moral superiority over someone else, doesn’t feel good to me, rather the opposite in fact.
@ SD.
“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of a small mind.”
(Ralph Waldo Emerson)
P.S:
What is it with you, SD? Playing Knight in Shining Armour to helpless maidens.
It’s simple enough, Arps, I’m not ‘rescuing’ anyone, I just don’t appreciate the self-righteous tone of that post of yours. Nor using that Emerson quote to attempt to justify it.
Seems to me that using your no doubt pure original motivations to compare yourself with and put yourself ‘above’ someone serves an egotistical purpose that undermines rather than elevates your point. And I doubt whether Emerson would have been too impressed!
“Self talk” is a cute way of putting it, not entirely familiar for me because I am one of those uncommon people who don’t have an inner monologue. It means certain things to do with the mind function differently for me. Thoughts, for instance, can have a wide variety of representations from 3D spatial concepts to linked forms of logic, to brief phrases.
Generally, when I talk I don’t have in my head what I’m about to say, it’s a bit mysterious.
https://youtu.be/RB7fstrbJSA
@ Nityaprem: 28 February, 2022 at 3:00 pm.
Are you sure you don’t have an inner monologue? Are you sure you’re just not aware of your inner monologue?
I recall a number of individuals in Poona One becoming aware of an inner monologue because of meditation and being really freaked out by that awareness.
@ SD, 28 February, 2022 at 3:08 pm
You could have levelled that remark at Lokesh a thousand times and you wouldn’t dare.
Beauty and ugliness are in the eye of the beholder.
You’re a puritan!
Lokesh was bragging when he made that remark. Bragging is his middle name.
I’m not special because of what I did. Just one of thousands lending a hand, rather than gobbing off about the failings of others.
“I’m not special because of what I did. Just one of thousands lending a hand, rather than gobbing off about the failings of others.”
There you go again, elevating your little self by comparing your ‘goodness’ to others – while claiming, of course, to be “nothing special”! After accusing someone else of “bragging”!
As for “You could have levelled that remark at Lokesh a thousand times and you wouldn’t dare”, well, I suggest that as well as “beauty and ugliness” being “in the eye of the beholder”, so are perceptions of what constitutes “bragging” and what doesn’t.
It seems to me that you find Lokesh pushes your buttons and you invariably over-react, as you have in this post I’m replying to. My experience of the same input happens to be completely different.
Arpana said: “I recall a number of individuals in Poona One becoming aware of an inner monologue because of meditation and being really freaked out by that awareness.”
I have meditated quite a bit over the years and have never encountered it. If I see a Magpie, I hear nothing unless I internally say to myself “Magpie”. There is a kind of thought-stream, a progression of thoughts of different kinds, but there is no monologue or inner voice to accompany that, and sometimes it falls away.
@Nityaprem,
If I see a magpie I don’t say “magpie”, but I am aware of magpies and crows and rooks, very much so.
In fact I am often aware of all that I once ‘sub-vocalized’ about that I don’t any more, and you sound to me as if you do have an inner voice, just not about everything you are aware of, see, hear, taste, smell.
If you are an introvert you won’t.
I have a vivid memory of standing waiting for a friend at about 24 years old, well before meditation in any form was part of my life, and becoming aware of the inner voice commenting about everything around me, and that doesn’t happen anymore. My inner voice is connected to what I feel, picture, insights I have.
I don’t not believe you by the way. I’m curious. I’ve heard others say this and certainly one individual I know does have an inner voice, and says he doesn’t, but I can see his throat moving when he’s not talking, or just sitting, or reading. He lives in his head. Totally knowledge-bound. (A guy I’ve known for years, along with his wife and kids).
Vlad the Puta has his nuclear deterrent on high alert. Millions of Ukrainians are having their lives destroyed and sannyasnews rattles on, swapping links to pop songs on Youtube and sharing opinions on watercolours. Trite does not quite sum it up.
Loke,
What do you suggest as better?
Buy a gun and head to Ukraine?
Well, that would at least be doing something instead of impotent agonising.
@SD who wrote.
”There you go again, elevating your little self”
Isn’t “little self” a good thing?
I guess it depends on the individual, Arps. Attempts to make oneself appear ‘bigger’, more ‘important’ – and superior
- in one’s own and/or others’ eyes might well indicate discontent with ‘merely’ being “little” – ie a classic and very common egoic reaction. Listen (if you can bear it) to a football phone-in on the radio and every now and again you’ll hear an argument over whether this or that club is a “big club” and if so, whether it’s bigger than another club or clubs.
At the end of the day, it’s all about whether ‘size matters’, isn’t it?
SD says:
”Well, I guess it depends on the individual, Arps. Attempts to make oneself appear ‘bigger’, more ‘important’ -and ‘superior’ – in one’s own and/or others’ eyes might well indicate discontent with ‘merely’ being “little”!
You’ve summed up how Lokesh behaves succinctly, and you continue to say nothing.
https://youtu.be/gOqblSqx_VI
You make such a fuss about this perception of yours that you really do believe everyone should also hold similar or even identical views. I suggest that’s a self-imposed limitation due to feeling somehow ‘threatened’ on a level that’s crucially important to you – but not necessarily to all people or even, maybe, to anyone else.
I suggest you are at least as threatened as you think I am, SD.
I mean if you want to play rescuer. Fine. But Lokesh!!!!!
Arps, it’s not a question of this or that person, or of ‘rescuing’ anybody, I’m responding to what I find to be flaws in your posts. That you can’t see beyond your ‘rescue’ interpretation and how it applies to Lokesh says much about how fixated you appear to be on these matters, so absolutely convinced that you see things as they are when it seems that in fact you see them through a filter of very strong, self-interested emotional bias.
Why do you react so fiercely to Lokesh, for example? No one else around here does so it would seem there’s something in you that feels profoundly threatened. Or is the right term ‘insulted’ (which amounts to the same thing)?
“Impotent agonising” doesn`t sound a good response for sure.
Lokesh didn`t suggest what a better course of action in response to the crisis on the part of SN contributors might be.
I donated £500 quid to the Red cross Ukraine relief fund, Lokesh.
What have you done apart from sneer knowingly and feel superior?
@ Klaus.
Bob Geldoff talking about the Beatles, Stones. Dylan:
https://youtu.be/1ssIPRMrYzU
And babysat the Ukrainian neighbour’s two kids, three nights in a row, probably tonight as well.
It reminds me of Ramana Maharshi looking at the tumour on his arm and saying “does the tumour also not have a right to live?” As he refused surgery for the cancer.
Hi Nityaprem,
Although the reports of his illness and death by those present do report that he seemed unconcerned/relaxed about his death, these are, in brief, the known facts related to the treatment of his illness:
“In November 1948, a tiny cancerous lump was found on Ramana Maharshi’s arm and was removed in February 1949 by the ashram’s doctor. Soon, another growth appeared, and another operation was performed by an eminent surgeon in March 1949 with radium applied. The doctor told Ramana Maharshi that a complete amputation of the arm to the shoulder was required to save his life, but he refused. Third and fourth operations were performed in August and December 1949, but only weakened him. Other systems of medicine were then tried, ayurvedic, homeopathic; all proved fruitless and were stopped by the end of March when devotees gave up all hope.”
Well, Osho was also not always accurate or completely well-sourced, so perhaps I am in good company.
I forgot that was Osho`s version.
Fact-checking wasn`t a thing in those days!
Frank,
He regularly makes remarks about Van Gogh which are factually wrong.
I know individuals who found that disconcerting, although I noticed it didn’t really ruin the point he made.
My point was rather that being factually accurate is a hang-up of modern thinking. While in fact it is an illusion, what the mind considers a fact is a shifting morass of sense and non-sense.
Osho was often poetic with facts and stories, preferring to paint some picture which spoke to a point he was making, rather than limit himself to the purely factual. And that’s fine.
Yes, the fact is, that there are no facts.
“All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”
A proclamation by the pigs who control the government in the novel ‘Animal Farm;, by George Orwell. The sentence is a comment on the hypocrisy of governments that proclaim the absolute equality of their citizens but give power and privileges to a small elite.
This is relevant to what exactly, Arps? Are you playing the “hard done by” card?
ROTFLMAO
I find the war in Ukraine diabolical, as I do all wars. I suppose, like many of us, I feel this war’s impact more, because it is on our international doorstep.
It is hardly news to say that there is a global war taking place on this planet, involving the forces of light and darkness. Right now, darkness appears to have the upper hand. To have a man like Vlad the Puta in command of one of the world’s biggest nuclear arsenals is indeed worrying because if he decides to hit the red button we are all fucked. I think Vlad is just about insane enough to do it. Very dangerous to get a monster like him in a corner.
The wise have mostly advised that to meditate is the best thing we can do for our fellow man. I think that is sound advice. I have always admired the Dalai Lama’s non-violent stance on the invasion of Tibet by China. I firmly believe he has adopted this stance because he knows better. It certainly was not because he is a coward. I see him as a courageous man who teaches by example.
When sannyasins started to get tooled up in Oregon I knew it was not a place for me. Osho, one would like to have imagined, should have known better. But he did not. Pity. But that is the way the chappati crumbled and crumble it did.
Lokesh wrote.
”The wise have mostly advised that to meditate is the best thing we can do for our fellow man. I think that is sound advice.”
But not advice you believe applies to you, Lokesh!
Lokesh,
I’m surprised by your regard for the Dalai Lama. Of course, he has a sweet, cuddly, and humorous side to him. Not unlike Eckhart Tolle.
But quotes like this: “Being able to have sexual contact without releasing semen is something needed when you practise the advanced stages of the complete stage.” – The 14th Dalai Lama (Berzin Archives) are on the one hand amusing, but also indicate his ignorance. He certainly isn’t “teaching by example” as you indicate, just parroting Tibetan doctrine, just parroting Tibetan doctrine on a subject he clearly knows nothing about.
What makes you suggest that there is a war between light and darkness taking place on the planet? Has it ever been thus? Or are we now living at the end of time? It’s unlike you to sound like some religious nut?????
As to his proposal that we might all meditate more, surely we may also follow the advice of the Christian leaders and pray? We’ve been told to either pray or meditate for some centuries and nothing has ever changed. You of all people know how a collective approach to change is always doomed to fail. What makes you think mass meditating is going to help?
He`s an old time religionist, for sure.
But with good taste in comics….
I tried the `without releasing semen` thing in my previous life in Lhasa and it just made my balls ache.
Lokesh remarked:
”When sannyasins started to get tooled up in Oregon I knew it was not a place for me.”
How did you know that, Lokesh?
A bit like you know all about the Ranch, despite not getting to the place, or even wearing a mala and red clothes from ’82.
For goodness’ sake, Arpana, let it go. This obsession with what Lokesh says, doesn’t say, did, or didn’t do is just going on and on. You’ll never get the satisfaction of justice or a sense that you have won. It never works like that, it continues to eat away at you, more malice breeding more bad feeling in you.
Lokesh might occasionally play the game, but you’re the one rising to the bait. It’s time to let it go.
@ Simond,
That’s so funny.
I bask in the warm glow of your concern.
Best laugh I’ve had all day. ( ᐛ )و
Now look what you’ve done, Lokesh.
Making Simond care about my welfare.
Yes, Arpana,
I do care about your welfare, if only because your behaviour and cynicism are so self-destructive – that it disturbs me.
Of course I can close myself down, and disregard it, and you’re very clever at dismissing the natural desire that I and others have to draw your attention to your attitude.
As a supposed follower of Osho it is shocking somewhat that you’ve taken so little of his profound teaching to heart, but have remained bitter and cynical, and self-destructive.
Osho gave his body and soul, literally, to help others, and it’s sad that you believe yourself to represent, even defend his teaching , whilst continuing to act with such envy and bitterness.
@Simond.
”but have remained bitter and cynical.”
That’s a description of Lokesh, you silly old thing.
Simond,
Yes, Arpana`s behaviour is deeply disturbing. Like you, I have also experienced profound agony, angst-ridden anguish, desperate distress and have lost more than a few nights` sleep worrying about how a disciple of such a great master could have fallen into such a pit of negativity.
I`m pretty sure that such a thing has never happened before.
I`m worried that such a confrontation between light and darkness might trigger World War 3.
I vote we contact the Dalai Lama and ask him to send a crack squadron of spiritual slapheads to chant mindlessly whilst rubbing their Dorjes but retaining their semen, thus meditatively dispelling the anti-Christ monster with great care and love.
Frank says, “I`m worried that such a confrontation between light and darkness might trigger World War 3.”
Relax. I made that up. As for the Dalai Lama, I like him much more than Vlad. So there!
Keep your hairy hands off Little Red Riding Hood. She is still recovering from a trauma induced by an overdose of TM.
One thing we can clearly observe:
@Frank got us talking!
And we are not at war with words. Yet, at least.
Keep them coming.
Cheers.
@Klaus
Jaw jaw is better than war war,
as the saying goes.
Thinking about Tibetans in the context of the theme of the thread, I remembered that the Tibetan monks in their monasteries have a tradition of philosophical debating.
I have watched it myself many times when I was in Dharamsala, home of the Dalai Lama.
The monks are all in an open space together. (There, it was out in front of the DL`s monastery). They fiercely debate philosophical points and Buddhist doctrine, taking it, in turn, to stand whilst proclaiming and sitting when listening.
The one making his points claps loudly, stamps and makes various gestures. The sessions go on for a while and are considered an important part of the education.
It is quite vigorous but not solemn and the monks look like they are enjoying it. In fact, there is quite a playground feel to it, it gets noisy, even mildly raucous.
The idea is to iron out misconceptions and get the debaters closer to the truth, yet it always looked quite fun to me.
I remember it reminded me a little of a kind of spiritual version of Monty Python`s ‘Argument Clinic’ sketch but where the punchline would be enlightenment.
@ Frank
God, you’ve been around. You personify the archetype of the Traveller! If I was younger I would even go as far as to use the expression “awesome”.
https://www.archetypes.com/explorer-family-traveler/
Mind you, I do struggle to square that with you living in a bloody semi. My jaw dropped when you told us that. Hell’s bells!
Arps,
The traveller archetype did a runner and now I more personify a narky type archetype,
living in a semi called `Dunroamin`.
Did roaming give up on you. or did you give up on roaming, Frank?
I never made it to Dharamsala myself though I did see the Dalai Lama when he visited the Netherlands a few years ago, they hired a huge concert hall so that everyone who wanted to could attend.
But the role of debating in spiritual search is an interesting quandary. Osho was all-India debating champion at one point, I recall reading. Maybe the ability to construct good arguments and talk convincingly is important somehow.
Nityaprem,
I guess, at base, it`s a “use it or lose it” approach.
Like some kind of physical exercise/discipline is needed to keep the body in order, same with the mind.
@ Nityaprem.
Sincere exchange of views, co-operative discussion can be really uplifting.
One-upmanship conversations, last word conversations are ok up to a point, but hard work eventually.
One person’s cynical quip can be another person’s deep revelation. It just depends on whether you are open to it.
But certainly, not all conversations are worthwhile….
@ Nityaprem
Cynical quips say a lot about the quipper. Reading what the quip says about the quipper is another matter.
Ah well, you know what Field-Marshal Sheela Kurtz used to say…’Tough chapatis!’
Or, in Arpana’s case…burnt-out chappati. Oh-oh, the air raid sirens are going, signalling incoming. I suspect Colonel Arpana has resorted to the use of WMD. Words of mass destruction. Prepare to be cluster bombed by Osho quotes. There is danger of being bored to death. Gotta run!
Oh yes indeed, what follows is yet another of Arpana’s bombshell Osho quotes! If not Osho, some other psychobabble nonsense with diagrams and charts.
Re Simond declaimed on 1 March 2022 at 10:39am:
I don’t really get why you’re being so pissy.
The opening line acknowledged my starting point was how I handle criticism, an awareness of being critical and criticised. I haven’t exempted myself from the gist of the post.
The Osho extract you sent in today is particularly relevant, I think, Arps. Good choice.
@SD
Which quote sent in by Arpana are you referring to? I can’t sort it out. Dukhito / Sorry.
K
Do you mean the “adolescent sense of humour” one, Klaus? If so, that was March 2, 6.49pm.
A good Osho quote is never wasted, surely? It has anecdotes and jokes and moments of wisdom that are relevant to the goings-on.
I was pondering on how I deal with criticism this morning, how others deal with criticism, neither judging myself or anyone else for that matter. I set off by picking up the Three of Pentacles (if anyone is interested I’ll explain why) and purely by coincidence, came upon the following:
BELOVED MASTER,
WHY IS IT THAT NOBODY LIKES TO BE CRITICIZED, AND YET EVERYBODY LOVES TO CRITICIZE OTHERS?
Gayatri, the ego is very sensitive and very fragile, and is very afraid of criticism. The ego depends on others’ opinions. It has no reality of its own. It is not a real entity, it is not substantial – it is just a collection of others’ opinions.
Somebody says, “You are beautiful,” and you collect it. Somebody says, “You are intelligent,” and you collect it. And somebody says, “I have never come across such a unique person,” and you collect it. And then one day a person comes and he says, “You are repulsive!” Now how can you accept criticism? It goes against the image that you have been creating of yourself. You will retaliate, you will fight tooth and nail. But whatsoever you do, the mind has taken the impression of this opinion too. Then somebody says, “You are ugly,” and somebody says, “You are stupid.” And there are millions of people in the world and they all have their own opinions, likes and dislikes.
Hence, your ego becomes a hodge-podge thing, a very contradictory phenomenon. One fragment says, “You are beautiful!” another fragment says, “Nonsense, you are ugly!” One fragment says, “You are intelligent,” another fragment says, “Keep quiet! Shut your big mouth! You are just plain stupid and nothing else!” Hence people live in a confused state. They don’t know who they are, whether they are intelligent or stupid, beautiful or ugly, good or bad, saint or sinner — because one person may call you a saint, another person may call you a sinner. There are different values and different criteria in the world, there are different moralities in the world.
Your neighbour may be a Christian and you may be a Jaina. Now the Christian has no problem with drinking wine; in fact, Christ himself loved to drink wine. But the Jaina cannot conceive, even in his dreams, of Mahavira drinking wine. That’s impossible, the very idea is inconceivable. But to the Christian the greatest miracle that Jesus did was to turn water into wine. If Mahavira had been around, he would have done just the opposite miracle immediately! He would have turned the wine again into water.
Now, if you drink wine once in a while, are you a saint or a sinner? Different people will say different things. In Mahatma Gandhi’s ashram tea was prohibited; what to say about wine! Tea, poor tea, innocent tea was prohibited! And all the Buddhist monks down the ages have been drinking tea. In fact they think that it helps meditation, and there may be a grain of truth in it, because it keeps you awake. And the Buddhist meditation is such that you tend to doze off: sitting for hours in a single posture…Just try it. After ten minutes you will start dreaming. After one hour it is impossible to keep awake.
Tea may have helped. In fact, tea was discovered by Buddhists. One of the greatest Buddhist masters, Bodhidharma, discovered tea. The name comes from a monastery, Ta, in which Bodhidharma used to live in China. That monastery was on top of the hill, Ta. In China ‘ta’ can be pronounced in two ways: either it can be pronounced as ‘ta’ or as ‘cha’ — hence the Hindi CHAI, the Marathi CHA, and the English ‘tea’. Bodhidharma, the great founder of Zen, discovered it.
And wine has been made in Catholic monasteries down the ages. You will be surprised to know that the best wine has been made by Catholic monks and nuns. The oldest wine is available only in the cellars of ancient monasteries in Europe, the oldest and the best. Wine, made in monasteries? What kind of monasteries are these? Who is going to decide?
In fact, again there is a grain of truth in it. Buddhist meditation means watchfulness, and tea has some chemicals in it which help watchfulness — it has a stimulant. Now some day it is possible that another Bodhidharma will come and say, “Smoking is good,” because tobacco also has a stimulant — nicotine. Smoking can also help meditation if tea can help it. Smoking is still waiting for its Bodhidharma to appear. Then you will be more able to smoke and feel very virtuous: the more you smoke, the more saintly you will be!
It is not accidental that wine became part of the monastery’s creativity. Jesus says: To be drowned in God is prayer. Jesus’ path is that of love, Buddha’s path is that of meditation; hence, Buddha will never agree to wine, but to tea he may agree. Jesus agrees to wine because wine gives you a taste of being utterly lost, of being drowned, of getting out of the ego, of forgetting the ego and all its worries. It gives you a taste, a glimpse of the unknown.
But who is going to decide about who is right and who is wrong? All these things are there in the atmosphere, and you catch them. Out of these things you make some kind of image; it is bound to remain hodge-podge, it can’t be clear-cut. Hence you are very much afraid of somebody criticizing you because he brings your hodge-podgeness to the surface. It is not his criticism that you are against; you are against the fact that he brings problems to the surface which you are somehow repressing within yourself. He makes you aware of the problems, and nobody wants to be aware of the problems, because problems then want to be solved, and it is a complex and arduous affair. It needs guts to solve problems. You may not like to solve problems in fact, because you may have some investment in your problems — you MUST have, because you have lived with them for so long that you must have invested in them. You may not like to change your life-style. If you are miserable you may like to remain miserable — whatsoever you say on the surface, that’s another matter. Notwithstanding what you say, deep down you may still like to remain miserable.
For example, a wife knows that the husband is loving towards her only when she is ill. Whenever she is healthy he simply forgets all about her, he never takes any care when she is healthy. When she is ill, out of sheer duty, responsibility, he comes, sits by her side, puts his hand on her head; otherwise he does not give her even a look. Ask husbands, “How long has it been since you have seen your wife’s face, face-to-face?” You may be able to recognize your dog if it is lost, but if your wife is lost you will have to ask the neighbours because they will recognize her better — just as you will recognize the neighbour’s wife better. Who looks at his own wife?
Mulla Nasruddin had gone to see a play. A man was in such great love in the play, he was acting so romantically that Nasruddin said to his wife, “This man is a great actor.”
The wife said, “And do you know? — the woman he’s acting with is really his wife in actual life.”
Nasruddin said, “Then he is the greatest actor in the world!”
To show so much romance to one’s own wife…it is next to impossible.
I was travelling for twenty years in this country. I was staying in thousands of homes, and I saw it continuously: when the husband is not in the house, the wife seems to be very cheerful, very happy. The moment the husband enters the house she has a headache, and she lies down on the bed. And I was watching, because I was just staying in the house. Just a moment before, everything was okay — as if the husband has not entered but a headache has entered.
Slowly slowly, I understood the logic. There is a great investment in it. And remember, I am not saying that she is simply pretending. If you pretend too long it can become a reality, it can become an autohypnosis. I’m not saying that she is NOT suffering from a headache, remember. She may be suffering: just the face of the husband is enough to trigger the process! It has happened so many times that now it has become an automatic process. So I am not saying that she is deceiving the husband; she is deceived by her own investments.
You have a certain image and you don’t want it to be changed, and criticism means again a disturbance.
You surely know the story of Little Red Riding Hood:
This little girl had gone to see her grandmother who lived in the woods. The bad wolf, who wanted to eat her up, took the grandma’s place in the bed after having devoured her in one gulp. So he was under the blankets with grandma’s nightie and nightcap on.
When Little Red Riding Hood arrived, she noticed something different, and looking the grandmother in the eye, she asked:
“But, granny, what big eyes you have!”
“It is to see you better, my dear.”
“But granny, what a big nose you have!”
“It is to smell you better, my dear.”
“But granny, what big arms you have!”
“It is to hug you better, my dear.”
“But granny, what hairy hands you have!”
“Hey! Have you come around just to criticize?”
There is a limit. Beyond that nobody likes to be criticized. But the other side of the story is that everybody likes to criticize others; that gives you a good feeling. If others are bad, vicariously it helps you to feel good. If everybody is a cheat, a hypocrite, dishonest, cunning, it gives you a good feeling: you are not THAT bad, you are not THAT dishonest. The comparison relaxes you. It helps you to remain dishonest, because people are more dishonest than you are. In this dishonest world how can you survive? You have to play the game.
Every morning, early in the morning when you read the newspapers, it always gives you a good feeling — so much happening all over the world, so many ugly things, so much violence, murder, suicide, rape, robbery, that compared to all this you are a saint. Hence people don’t like to read the Bible in the morning, or the Gita, but the newspaper! Reading the Gita you feel like a sinner, reading the Bible you start feeling a trembling, that hell is bound to happen to you, that you are on the way. And the scriptures depict hell so vividly, with such color that it can make anybody afraid. And one thing seems to be certain: that you cannot reach heaven. It seems to be impossible, it demands impossibilities.
Nobody likes to read the scriptures, nobody likes to listen to the scriptures. That’s why if you go to the temple you will find almost everybody fast asleep. There are physicians I know who send people to religious discourses if they suffer from insomnia. If no tranquilizer works, don’t be worried: go to a religious discourse. It is the ultimate in tranquilizers — up to now nothing has been able to defeat it. Listening to religious scriptures one starts falling asleep. It is a protection, it is to avoid; otherwise, it becomes absolutely certain that heaven is not for you, you are meant for hell. And it stirs your heart, raises great fear, and there seems to be no way to escape from it.
Hence, everybody likes to criticize, and not only to criticize — everybody likes to magnify others’ faults. You try to make others’ faults as big as possible because then, in comparison, your faults are negligible. And God is compassionate: RAHIM, REHMAN! God is compassion! You have only small faults, and looking at the world where so many sinners exist….
When the Day of Judgment comes you can be perfectly certain that your number is not going to be called, you will not be called. The queue will be too long, and it has to be decided within twenty-four hours. One Day of Judgment, and millions and millions of people — Tamerlane and Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great and Adolf Hitler and Mussolini and Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong…these will be the people standing in front. You will be the last in the queue. Your number is not going to come. You can be certain of it if you look at people with a magnifying glass.
After running into a wild crowd at a basketball game one evening, the referee picked up his wife and told her it might be better if she stayed away from the remaining games to which he was assigned. “After all,” he said, “it must have been pretty embarrassing to you when everyone stood up and booed me.”
“It was not so bad,” she replied. “I stood up and booed too.”
Ego does not want to be criticized AND wants to criticize everybody. Become aware of the strategy of the ego, how it nourishes itself, how it protects itself. Unless you become absolutely aware of all the cunning devices of the ego, you will never be able to get rid of it. And to get rid of it is the beginning of a religious life, is the beginning of sannyas. Then you are no longer worried what others say about you.
Just look at me…The whole world goes on saying things about me. I don’t even read them. Every day Laxmi brings hundreds of reports appearing in different languages from different countries. Who cares? If they are enjoying rumours, let them enjoy; they don’t have anything else to enjoy in their lives. Let them have a little fun. Nothing is wrong in it, they cannot harm me. They can destroy my body, but they cannot harm ME. And I have no image of my own; they cannot destroy that either. And I don’t react, I act. My action springs out of myself, it is not to be manipulated by others. I am a free man, freedom. I act of my own accord.
Learn the art of acting of your own accord. Don’t be worried about criticisms and don’t be interested in praise. If you are interested in being praised by others, then you cannot be unconcerned about criticism. Remain aloof. Praise or criticism, it is all alike. Success or failure, it is all alike. AES DHAMMO SANANTANO.
Osho
The Dhammapada: The Way of the Buddha, Vol. 2, Chapter 10: The Law – Ancient and Inexhaustible
The sirens fall silent. I return to the bright light of day to find Arpana’s WMD was a dud. No surprises there. Little Red Riding Hood turned out to be a disillusioned hooker. And granny had hairy hands. I suppose we all have our problems, but you can count yourself lucky that you aren’t a burnt-out chappati.
@ Arps
What is the Three of Pentacles for you?
We criticise because we want that the other behaves according to our ideas, our standards. What else?
What is good for one ego can be bad for another one.
Real-life, these days.
@ Satchit
The 3 of Pentacles always makes me think of art critics who can’t paint and who can be sneeringly critical of those who do, sneeringly critical of those who put themselves on the line and work on something. Commit to developing a skill if you like, and take the risk of failing.
I despise those who sit in the pavilion and throw rocks at the players.
I was also aware this morning, which was the point of what I was communicating, of myself being critical and being criticised; I juxtaposed the two, rather than criticising and resenting being criticised. (The left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing).
Regarding your other remarks:
It isn’t possible to swim without getting wet.
The question on everyone’s lips right now is…Is PC Arpana, who knows how to blow his own whistle, and claims to have survived TM trauma, actually a terrorist, working for the forces of evil, using classic acts of online terrorism, like Osho quote “sannyas or suicide” bombs and baffling readers with trite images created with keyboard symbols, while all the while posing as an artist?
There is no smoke without PC Arpana’s policeman pants on fire and the Dalai Lama has been notified that Arpana might be a herald of the end of days.
Swami Bhorat sends a message from Bungbungalore Ashram:
Certainly, the western baboons would do well to remember that Zorba the Buddha Modi and all true supporters of holy Hindu right to rape have made it clear that not only did the wise men, rishis and sages of our mighty land first come up with arithmetic, science, flight, space travel, plastic surgery, knob gags, public toilets and institutionalised racism but also were world leaders in sexism, sexology and the art of rape!
]
Extensive scholarship funded by Bhorat University has revealed that Sid the Sexist was in fact none other than Siddhartha Gautam in past life! When asked whether women should be allowed to join his religion, he famously said:
”No chance, pet. If we get them lasses coming roond, ma religion`ll collapse in nee time what with all wurs lads havin te rape all them hinnies all the time. Theys =`ll have nee time for meditation, man! Everyone noos that rape is the ultimate in longing for a woman, like. And oot of compassion ye cannae deny `em , like. Anyroads, most of gadgies roond here cannie tell the difference between thur wifes and thur dogs, especially after a few cans o the old hippie crack an a few handfuls of Valium, like”
Certainly the holy right to rape and fulfill ultimate longing of women must be upheld by all those who teach the time-honoured truths of mighty Bhorat! Many gurus in India are heroic prisoners languishing in jail for the righteous cause at this very moment!
And many therapists and high-ranking sannyasins have also taken teaching to heart, and such was their humility and wish to keep this most sacred teaching from the eyes of the unconscious masses, that it only recently has their heroic exploits have come to light on Facebook!
Yahoo!
Long live The Fat Slags! May their crusade to rid us of Catholic sannyasin jihadists be victorious.
“Are you a spiritual pilgrim, too?”
See cartoon….
Klaus.
I remember this one. Bloom County is the best.
Osho says in Arpana’s recently copy-and-pasted quote, “For example, a wife knows that the husband is loving towards her only when she is ill. Whenever she is healthy he simply forgets all about her, he never takes any care when she is healthy. When she is ill, out of sheer duty, responsibility, he comes, sits by her side, puts his hand on her head; otherwise, he does not give her even a look. Ask husbands, “How long has it been since you have seen your wife’s face, face-to-face?” You may be able to recognize your dog if it is lost, but if your wife is lost you will have to ask the neighbours because they will recognize her better — just as you will recognize the neighbour’s wife better. Who looks at his own wife?”
Osho also says somewhere else, “Your outer world is a reflection of your inner universe. You mirror your inner self in your relationships with others.”
I agree with the second quote and totally disagree with the first, because the first is a reflection of Osho’s inner universe and has nothing at all to do with mine. To speak in such a cynical way about man/woman relationships is typical Osho, because he was not a monogamous man. He had wandering eyes and wandering hands and he couldn’t keep them off the women living next door. I do not find anything wrong with that. But I do find something wrong with Osho’s first quote because it is a load of nonsense, a generalism that plasters over the utter beauty, pure joy and path of illumination that can exist in a human relationship.
Osho’s first quote is a load of crap that simply reflects Osho’s limitations in the world of human relationships. For anyone to take what he is saying as gospel, they would have to be utterly stupid. This is not wisdom. It is bullshit.
That’s the problem with Osho’s wonky verbal vision. Idiots adopt it as their own instead of going to the bother of creating their own unique vision, because they are too cowardly and lazy. Sheep. Far too much importance has been placed on Osho’s words and that is not a good thing because they are so full of contradictions, which I believe was intentional on Osho’s part because he did not want people to make a religion out of his words.
When they were delivered live, his words kept the mind busy while the real transmission actually took place, if you were fortunate enough to be open and available to that transmission happening. Now, forty years down the line, the monkeys are still parroting his words, completely unaware of how foolish that is. They adopt Osho’s contradictory verbal vision of life as their own and end up as confused as the times we are living in.
@ Lokesh
Oh, dear. Guess who just got his buttons pressed.
That bit of truth hurt. ROTFLMAO
PC Arpana says, “Sincere exchange of views, co-operative discussion can be really uplifting.
One-upmanship conversations, last word conversations are ok up to a point, but hard work eventually.”
Then PC Arpana says, “Oh, dear. Guess who just got his buttons pressed.
That bit of truth hurt. ROTFLMAO.”
Yes, our very own PC Plod is up to a point and working hard as he patrols the streets of SN, ready to write a ticket for anyone who does not toe the Catholic sannyasin party line.
Confusion will be his epitaph.
@Lokesh
Get over yourself. You’re pissing your pants because Osho’s remarks struck at your delusion you are above the human condition.
My personal experience of relationships in the widest, and also most intimate sense, is the best, AND most difficult of times.
Relationships are heaven and hell.
“Relationships are heaven and hell.”
If you are lucky, then they are not heaven and hell.
@ Satchit.
I don’t believe you.
You are channelling Lokesh.
You are funny, Arps.
Certainly I am channelling Loco.
He is my best friend.
Well played, Satchit. Great shot!
ヾ( ￣◇￣)ノ
I agree, Lokesh, the first quote is childish.
Maybe he said it to provoke people, but it can become easily a consolation for failure.
It’s an old psychological story that the child gets more attention and love by the mother if it is sick.
@Lokesh:
I always thought of Osho’s vision on relationships as “love first”, and quite realist although his jokes and anecdotes can read as cynical. I’m not an expert on love, but most human emotions don’t seem to last very long and long-term attachment often becomes a practical arrangement. I think that’s what Osho is getting at in the first quote.
But it is good to have an independent vision on Osho’s words, and it is in discussions such as this that we define for the world to see what our hearts and minds really think. Osho’s discourses for me are rather hypnotic, things just kind of go in, and as you say it is about the transmission that came with the words.
Relationships tend to bring out the things you care about, and so in a way they expose what we are most attached to in life. It helps one mature to be really aware in relationship.
Hi Nitya, back in ’75, me and my partner went to ask Osho about our relationship, like most couples back then.
The old boy told us to stay together. He also said, “If there was no love, there would be no problem.” He was absolutely correct in that observation.
As for staying together, we split up the following day. Forever.
What I don’t understand is why anti-Sannyas proselytisers need to spend so much time haunting a site devoted to Osho’s work and browbeating those who are actually into him about the connection.
Strikes me you are feeling a little bit insecure about Sannyas and Osho.
The psychological phenomenon of not wanting others to have what you can’t have. Eureka!!
Arps,
Agreed. Us true spiritual sannyasins who think that women who are raped are asking for it, and who think pedophilia is cool should stick together and battle the tide of cultural Marxist post-modern snowflake politically correct anti-Sannyas propaganda.
Namaste, Frank, to coin one of PC Arpana’s favourite expressions, you are a good egg, who always wears his sannyas or suicide belt when confronting Marxist post-modern snowflake politically correct anti-Sannyas propaganda. In other words, a true spiritual sannyasin.
His blessings….
Don’t do that, Frank. It’s really scuzzy.
You either trust his intentions or you don’t.
We do that all the time with others. Read between the lines.
I see you as a pretty decent human being. I don’t think you’re a saint but then I don’t think you think you’re a saint either.
A lot of what you say I just laugh at, but some of it is really gross. If I didn’t read between the lines I would think you were obsessed with buggery, gay sex and God knows what else. The woke would have you hounded from life if they saw some of the stuff you write
We would never make it through life, just with ordinary ongoing living, without reading between the lines.
My next-door neighbour is 84 years old. His language would make anyone who was really P.C. wince. He couldn’t be kinder and more decent if he bloody tried.
What do you think of Osho`s idea that rape victims are asking for it, though?
And sex as fun for all the family like Monopoly or Twister.
Good advice?
I trust his intentions when he said that.
I trust his intentions absolutely.
Just as I don’t believe you going on about sex the way you do is saying anything about you and sex, just about your adolescent sense of humour.
Taking of “adolescent sense of humour”, I see outsiders Luton Town have hugely strengthened their defence for their big FA Cup game v Chelsea tonight…and are already a goal up…
25
Steer
15
Lockyer
32
Osho
16
Burke
20
Kioso
14
Mendes Gomes
29
Bell
8
Berry
3
Potts
7
Cornick
26
Muskwe
PC Arpana, sannyasin Jihadi Number One, states, “I trust Osho’s intentions absolutely.”
I find this to be an interesting statement that reveals much about the PC’s mindset.
For a start, does anyone actually know what Osho’s intentions were? Yes, we all know about awakening mankind from the sleep of ignorance, and sannyasin double-think like “It was all a device.” But do we really know what Osho’s real intentions were? I have to say I do not.
Then we have the PC’s general sentimental approach to Sannyas and all things Osho…anything that might dent that sentimentality is immediately met with over-emotionally loaded attacks…attack in his mind being the best form of defence.
“I trust Osho’s intentions absolutely.” My, my, what a brave spiritual warrior, giving his all in the name of what exactly, nobody knows and I doubt PC Arpana does either, because it’s bullshit.
We could have an interesting discussion about this, but it is unlikely that the jihadi element will participate, blissfully ignorant to hover in their hallowed Osho bubble. Now Jihadi, PC Arpana, is talking about pre-emptive strikes as if he is at war. Talk about losing the plot.
I have not yet, despite asking several times, got an answer from Satchit and Arpana whether they agree with Osho that women who are raped are asking for it. Or whether children should be dancing around their parents while they are having sex.
@ Frankie,
I see you are confused and need my help.
It was not Osho’s idea that in women is a hidden desire to be raped. He only parrots stuff from Freud, who called it feminine masochism.
More help?
So Osho was not responsible for that statement as he was merely ‘parroting’ Freud, although he made no mention of Freud as its source? You’re on shaky ground there, Satchit. As are those who tend to always use the “it was a device” explanation for apparently questionable words and actions.
But this issue is not so clear-cut. The intellectual accuracy of all the words of a master is not the be-all and end-all, other things, eg the presence, energetic transmission, the love, are far more important, yet it does seem rather foolish to deny obvious shortcomings, as if anything short of ‘perfection’ were an admission of fallibility and hence a reason for doubt, with a consequent undermining of one’s perhaps childlike trust in the man. After all, Osho himself never claimed he was flawless, despite ‘perfect consciousness’.
Still, Osho encouraged his people to have “an emotional relationship” with him, and some, perhaps many people have needed and still need to relate to the master as a child relates to a ‘perfect’ parent, seeing no flaws, not even minor ones, and if that helps them recover from difficulties, eg childhood trauma, and move on, then I’m certainly the last person to condemn them.
@ SD
Certainly Osho is responsible for that statement.
But you cannot make him responsible for what you do or don’t do.
It’s only your choice alone.
Satchit,
This is Prabhupada, founder of Hare Krishna`s view:
“A man is always famous for his aggression toward a beautiful woman, and such aggression is sometimes considered rape. Although rape is not legally allowed, it is a fact that a woman likes a man who is very expert at rape.”
“It is not that the woman does not like rape. Outwardly they show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not….”
This sort of attitude is still common all over India and the world in old-school religion.
Nothing to do with Freud. He`s a Johnny-come-lately.
Frank,
You are not going to manipulate me into a puerile schoolboy gotcha moment.
I trust Osho’s intentions absolutely. I don’t trust yours. I also trust my own perceptions more than I trust yours, yah proselytiser.
PC Arpana says to Frank, “You are not going to manipulate me into a puerile schoolboy gotcha moment.” This describes exactly what the PC tried on with me the other day, triumphantly declaring “gotcha” as if he’d scored some points. Feeble-minded does not quite sum it up.
Straws. Clutching
In the early 80s, before we had become notorious, before the great running away began, I was working at a book distribution firm, in a mala and red clothes, with a couple of lefties on the staff, and they were at me all the time, constantly trying to put me on the spot about something or other to do with Osho, although that was more to do with being anti-religion rather than what is happening here.
And here I am again all these years later in a situation which is so similar, at a site devoted to the work of Osho, only now the role of the lefties is being played by those who ran away yet can’t keep away from Osho and Sannyas and sannyasins.
They have contented themselves with a fantasy that they are ‘above’ other sannyasins in some way, believing that the others are in a ‘cult’, don’t have their own minds, take absolutely everything that Osho said literally, are gullible, and have been duped.
This must be a projection of how they consider themselves to have been when they were younger – some years later they became cynical and lost their trust. The other ‘sheep’, sannyasins who still get something out of Osho (delusional in their minds), are inferior in their eyes and yet bthe cynics here are by far the most attached to this ‘Sannyas’ site. And often they will get very threatened when sannyasins come on here and make overly positive remarks about Osho.
Strange situation.
If you are still stuck in the same headspace, fighting the same losing battles after 40 years, it`s probably time to move on.
For example, it might help if you try to explain what Osho meant when he said:
“But then too, it is not certain that raping the woman is certainly bad. Perhaps she was also waiting for it. Perhaps she was getting frustrated that nobody is raping her. There is a deep desire in every woman to be longed for, and the more drastically you long for her the more satisfied she feels. And rape is the ultimate in longing for a woman.”
Frank, who talks more about sex than the rest of us put together to the power of ten, hidden behind the cloak of humour, including what are rape jokes in actuality.
Compensating, or what?!
‘And rape is the ultimate in longing for a woman.’
Do not worry, PC Arpana trusts Osho’s intent absolutely. And there is a perfectly rational explanation for why Osho spoke these words of wisdom. It was a device for your awakening.
Really, man, and woman, the Sannyas jihadists are starting to look more like the zombie apocalypse. Sannyas or suicide belts and foaming at the mouth.
What do you expect by someone who is full of nitro, Loco?
It’s a fascist quote done at the end of
Rajneeshpuram.
Frank, it is unlikely that you will get a coherent response to your questions from the jihadis. Their armoured column is running out of fuel, morale is at an all-time low and they have lost the plot and are stranded on the outskirts of Sannyasnews, wondering what to do next.
I suspect they will cling to the idea that they have surrendered, believing they trust Osho’s intentions, while jihadi HQ puts out disinformation and behaves with self-righteous indignation, all the time knowing they have committed war crimes and may eventually face a tribunal in The Resort. (Reporting from my bunker in Ibiza).
Yes, they can`t even stand up for their guru`s words.
Great disciples!
Aye, as Granny MacDoon used to say, “The human tongue is a beast that few can master.”
@Frank
Osho’s great strength was that he knew the natural impulses of man, as he was when he got down from the trees in the grassland of Africa. It sometimes led him down paths that weren’t very politically correct. No big deal, as long as you don’t go crazy about it. Many people have said more outrageous things.
The Buddha also once said to a rich court lady that all she had to do was repeat the name of a previous buddha three times and he would rescue her at the moment of her death. That sutra was taken out of 80,000 others and became the keystone of Pure Land Buddhism, now the most popular form of buddhism in China and Japan.
Taking one question and answer out of a body of teachings and giving it undue weight is a dangerous thing.
Nityaprem, you say:
“Taking one question and answer out of a body of teachings and giving it undue weight is a dangerous thing.”
Dangerous? In what way?
Also, in what sense do proclamations that women who are raped are asking for it, and that children should be present during adult sex constitute “teachings”?
@Frank:
You’re probably right that Osho wouldn’t see his discourses as teachings, and wouldn’t encourage us to always follow them. As the Buddha would say, test that which you learn.
Next, one might certainly find someone claiming that the raping he did “was out of love and for the help of the raped person.”
Thats when everything has got lost.
One can read about (gang) rapes done every day in Bangladesh in ‘thedailystar.net’ news online.
Pure violence and retribution for the lack of own self-worth. Imo.
No heaven for those persons, my guess.
@Klaus:
I once went on a first date with a lovely young lady who professed towards the end of the date to be very much into “play rape”. What would you have said to that?
Osho was not entirely wrong, although there is a big difference between consensual play rape and anything non-consensual.
@Nityaprem
To me, that is a different situation: when the lady expresses a wish for this kind of an approach to sex – then it is imo not rape, it is consensual. If you manage the aggressiveness.
I have my experiences in this direction, too, as it was said to me:
“Sex without pain is not nice.”
Ah, not easy for a guy with my kind of story.
I get pleasure from sweetness and loveliness.
Much less could I be aggressive towards somebody ‘not asking for it’.
But then again, I
“Just ain’t seen nothing yet
I met a devil woman
She took my heart away
She said, I’ve had it comin’ to me
But I wanted it that way
I think that any love is good lovin’
So I took what I could get, mmh
Oooh, oooh she looked at me with big brown eyes
And said,
You ain’t seen nothin’ yet
B-b-b-baby, you just ain’t seen n-n-nothin’ yet
Here’s something that you never gonna forget
B-b-b-baby, you just ain’t seen n-n-nothin’ yet….”
…
BachmannTurnerOverdrive
N.B:
To me, that is a different situation: when the lady expresses a wish for this kind of an approach to sex – then it is imo not rape, it is consensual. If you manage the aggressiveness.
Which I never could or can.
Just to be clear: nothing to this effect happened.
We discussed this attitude openly and lovingly.
This is no call for violence of any kind in any situation.
I have stated this – I think clearly – in many statements before.
@Nityaprem
As an imo very interesting turn of events the lady later on told me that her father choked her violently out of anger in her youth and she was afraid of dying during the attack.
I conclude from this happenstance that the sorriest consequences of wounds inflicted on someone’s consciousness are those which remain hidden in the unconscious. As imo these bind the energies required to progress on the path to full freedom.
Also, this lady is operating on another spiritual level compared to my small self. And does not seem to suffer directly from this event.
Which to me seems quite miraculous. Much to learn from such a person.
Sad story. I know a few sannyasins who have stayed together as couples. But as a rule they seem to spend some time in love and some time just pragmatically being together, and with some huge bust-ups.
But I think even given Osho’s talk of no-mind and enlightenment, he was still using his mind to talk to us, and so he was subject to the stuff accumulated in that mind. I tend to forgive him the occasional coming off the rails, in return for the many times when he spoke with wisdom and clarity.
Of course, Osho used his mind, especially so seeing as how he had a brilliant one, but I think he did not let his mind use him. Maybe I am mistaken. I really don’t know for certain.
The other day, I came across a short quote from Ramana Maharshi that stayed with me.
Fuck me. Osho sounds like Sid the Sexist.
Oi! Here`s a good one that he woulda loved, by the sound of it:
Q. Why is it better to go out for a drive in the car with your dog rather than your wife?
A. Your dog is happy to see you when you let it out of the boot.
Also, Mick the misogynist, Rohypnol Ron and Knuckle-dragging Nobby from down my local pub, ‘The Old Chauvinist’, told me this one:
Q. How do you know when your wife`s dead?
A. Sex is the same but the washing-up piles up.
(Sid the Sexist, cartoon character from Viz)
Typical line:
“How, pet, my name’s Sid. D’ya fancy a fuck?”
When answered with a definite “No!”, he replies:
“Well, would you mind lying down while I have one?”).
There are quite a lot of things that Osho said about human relationships that seem pretty questionable, to say the least.
Take, for example, this from the ‘Osho Times’:
Who Is Responsible for Sexual Abuse of Children?
“Osho,
You say that there is only one sin, and that is unawareness. I tried for years to look for the good in every situation, however painful it seemed, but I still have not come to understand how there is no wrong. To me, things like the abuse of a child – either physically or psychologically – and the rape of a woman are wrong. How can they be called good? Can you tell me anything to help my understanding of these things?”
Osho replies:
“I have said that awareness is the only virtue, and unawareness is the only sin. Now I am in a difficulty. Who has told you to look for good in everything? How did you translate my statement about awareness to mean that you have to see the good in everything? And you say you have tried long to see good in everything, but there are children abused psychologically, sexually; women are raped – how can these things be good?
But you seem to be just stupid. Being aware means not to make any judgment. And all this time you have been making judgments about what is good and what is not good. Then you are bound to be confused. And awareness will not arise out of this discrimination.
Awareness simply means witnessing anything just like a mirror, giving no judgment about it. And as your awareness grows, things that looked sinful to you will look only pathological.
People are sick. And they are sick as victims of thousands of years of teaching them what is good and what is not good.
With awareness there is no decision about any act. Awareness simply sees it whether it is good or not; it has no criterion. But the first thing is to attain to awareness. And then the same things may not look the same.
For example, the rape of a woman is certainly ugly. But who is responsible for it? The society, the culture, the religion – they have been trying to keep men and women apart.
Your biology knows nothing of it, and when you see a beautiful woman on a dark night, alone, your biology takes over your so-called morality and religion.
But then too, it is not certain that raping the woman is certainly bad. Perhaps she was also waiting for it. Perhaps she was getting frustrated that nobody is raping her. There is a deep desire in every woman to be longed for, and the more drastically you long for her the more satisfied she feels. And rape is the ultimate in longing for a woman. You are ready to commit a crime just to have her. You may be imprisoned for years in a jail, you don’t care.
In most of the cases you and the woman are both brought up by the same idiotic society. They have told the woman to remain away from men, they have given her a certain psychology to avoid men. Even if somebody is attractive to her, she has to say no.
In all the languages the poets have been saying for centuries that when a woman says no she means yes. But this is not true in Rajneeshpuram.
Here when a woman says no she means no, and when she says yes she means yes. You are fortunate if she says no! But there is no confusion about the meanings of the words.
No woman has been raped in four years’ time in the commune here – but a few swamis have been raped! This is something new that is happening. The swamis are in such a fear, and wherever they turn there is somebody ready to rape them! We are writing human history from the very beginning again.
But you cannot decide these things superficially. All psychologists agree that a woman is raped because deep down she desires it. It gives her a great ego, that she is so beautiful, so lovable, that people are ready even to commit suicide – there are countries where for rape you will be sentenced for your whole life or you may be crucified; still the man wanted her. There is a great satisfaction – he risked his whole life!
So don’t take things superficially. But an unaware man is bound to take things superficially. My emphasis is not to determine which act is wrong and which act is right. In one situation the same act may be wrong; in other situations, right.
Just a few days ago, one sannyasin wrote me a letter saying, “Osho, You have created a trouble” – because I had said some time ago that many people, almost the majority of people in the world, men and women both, are untrained lovers. No training has been given to them. In fact everything has been kept from them, they have been kept ignorant.
What does ‘a virgin’ mean? Someone who has been kept absolutely ignorant.
So I had said that the best way to introduce your children to love will be that, while you are making love, children should be playing around. Let them be there. And in fact it is one of the most significant things because every child sooner or later discovers what you are doing to his mother. First he thinks that this father seems to be a barbarian, doing pushups on the poor woman. He wants to kill this man, but the child is so small…so he represses the desire, and he is not even allowed to admit that he has seen it.
And the child will never be able to forgive you, that you were secretive about things. You were not open, even with him. You talked about love, but love means many things: openness, honesty, sincerity. And about one of the most basic things in life you kept the child absolutely unaware.
Children are very intelligent, every child is born with a tremendous energy of intelligence. It is the society and the education and the religion-they start destroying his intelligence, so by the time he is a young man, he is just a fool. But the small children are very perceptive, you cannot deceive them.
So I had said that it is perfectly good – because the child has to learn and it is better he learns from the very beginning.
Now this woman wrote to me, “A problem has arisen: we allowed our child to be present while we were making love; now the child wants to make love to me. He says, “If father can do it, why can’t I do it?” Now we cannot say that this is sin, because if it is sin, then why is his father doing it, and why is he being allowed to commit sin?
In a really human society there will be no sexual abuse of children. Such abuse exists only because children are kept in the dark; and they are curious, very curious, “What is it all about?” Then they get caught in somebody’s net.
“But children are very understanding too. The mother, the father, both should make him understand, “This is your training to see how love is made. The time will come when you will be a young man and you will be making love – then don’t make the same mistakes that we have made.
Make your lovemaking a deep understanding for the child. Make him also aware that he is not your age. Make the place of your lovemaking a temple, so that the child from the very beginning starts feeling love is something sacred. And if he knows everything about it nobody can abuse him.
Now the question arises: who is responsible for sexual abuse of the child? You are responsible.
“You are keeping your children in darkness, and they are feeling that there is something that is being kept secret. They become curious; the more you hide it, the more curious they are.
If it is open and is made available so the child can understand it – yes, there will be a few problems, like the child wanting to make love to the mother. The mother can hug the child, the mother can help the child to understand: “Just look at my size and your size. Just grow up and you will find a beautiful woman, far more beautiful than me.”
But every mother wants the child to feel that she is the greatest and the most beautiful woman in the world, not knowing that she is creating a tragedy for the child for his whole life because now he will be looking for her all around the world and he will not find her. No woman will come up to the standard of his mother. No woman is going to give him satisfaction.
The same is true about small girls. They should be made absolutely aware – not just verbally in a classroom. That does not help, they become even more curious.
Make it very honest. And when the experiment is happening every day in the house, where is the problem? Let your girl, your boy, be present. Let them see the beauty of it. Make the whole phenomenon as sacred as possible. And these children will always respect you because you were so honest with them, so sincere with them; you never kept anything secret from them.
And any problems like this – boys asking to make love to their mother – can be explained to them, that they are not yet ripe. One day they will be ripe; for that day we are preparing them. And children are very receptive, very understanding.
There is sexual abuse of children because they are kept in darkness by their parents, by their teachers. Love is something like a sin which has to be done in darkness, and nobody is to know about it. You are doing something ugly.
In your own mind it is something ugly, something that should not be done. You are not rejoicing in it.
Rejoice! Make love a festive moment. And of course, your children have to take part in it. They can at least dance around you while you are making love, sing beautiful songs around you, play on their small guitars, drums. They can make it really festive!
And they will understand that they are children and they are not of age, and soon they will get their own lovers. And if this experience has been part of their growing up, their love life will have a totally different flavour.
So in child abuse, the person who has abused the child is only a victim of a very neurotic society.”
Osho, ‘From Death to Deathlessness’, Talk 32: ‘Silence Is the Highest Music’
Such a load of garbage in there:
“All psychologists agree that a woman is raped because deep down she desires it.”
Really?
This is exactly the kind of chauvinistic nonsense that you hear from every single hard-core old-time fundamentalist religionist.
Involving kids in your sex-play?
No comment.
From this, it seems pretty clear Osho was not free of the regressive brainwashing he was subjected to by his culture of birth.
Osho declares, “Being aware means not to make any judgment.”
Then he proceeds to deliver a whole lot of judgments, many of which are pretty warped. How absurd is that?
@ Frankie
There is a meaning in this “load of garbage” :
It helps you to become free of the Guru.
What about you, Satchit?
Rape: “nicht-nicht” or “ach, ja”?
Frankie, your German is not very good.
Better explain in English language what you want!
Rape:
Victims are asking for it?
Or not?
What say you?
What I say, Frankie?
I say you don’t know how a Master functions.
You see only the surface.
First he attracts you and then he repulses you.
And the underlying music from the beginning to the end is: My words are just fingers pointing to the moon. Don’t bite into my fingers!
And to repulse you, no zen stick is needed.
Just talking stupid stuff or doing crazy things is enough.
Thanks for reminding me to never underestimate the power of denial.
Aye, the jihadis are out in force, strapping on their ‘sannyas or suicide’ belts, ready to blow up the unbelievers in their crusade in the name of…what? I am not exactly sure. Ehm…pure stupidity?
I have to bring up here my favourite short Osho quote:
“The doors to heaven are
- love
- non-violence
- compassion
- silence”
Thus, whenever I feel disconnected and/or confused, I check myself which one of the above I am lacking.
Choice.
Oh, just a few days ago I saw a quote (true or not true I do not know) of the Buddha:
“Don’t ask any experts. Figure it out yourself.”
At least it sounds short & sweet to me.
Satchit, 2 March 2022 at 7:52 pm
Well made point, Satchit. Pretty sure they are both jealous of Osho. That they will never receive the respect and regard he does. The trust. Eating at them, I have no doubt.
The word I’d examine, Arpana, in your earlier defence of Oshos’s statement is “ trust”.
There is no need to trust anyone or anything. Trust in the context you are referring to is just another form of belief.
There are many instances where Osho clearly expresses that you don’t need to trust him, or where he does say that we have to trust the Master, but essentially his teaching was intended that we discover our own “truth”, and not follow him or anyone else.
The need to trust him was part of his early work, when it may have been necessary to truly listen to him, and to challenge our naive, even infantile opinions or early conditioning.
As we grow, so we lose our beliefs, and then we can make observations, and see the limitations in any teacher or any philosophy.
We grow from followers into something unique, independent and in no need of anyone to trust.
@ Simond
By writing that piece you have demonstrated you don’t know what trust is.
You are an ideologue. Trust is a feeling. Not an idea.
I know trust because I also know betrayal and naivete.
@ Simond.
Trust is a feeling mixed with a degree of body sensation. A degree of the visceral, and is connected to, in my case, my relationship with myself. I trust my trust and I trust my mistrust. I am also circumspect in my trust in my attitudes to others for as long as possible, and I trust those feelings as well.
Who and where is this “I” that does all the trusting and mistrusting, Arps? Is it identical with what you call “myself”,
or is it, as the phrase “my relationship with myself” would appear to indicate, another entity altogether?
“Trust in existence” was an Osho slogan back in the day. He was right to say that. The thing about such a stance is that it requires a 100% commitment. 99.9% will not do the trick. Therefore, to trust in existence also requires much courage.
@ SD
I don’t understand what you’re asking me then.
SD,
I think you might be over-egging the philosophy bit there.
Simply, Arpana personifies the fanboy archetype.
He`s done it on Osho, done it on Jordan Peterson, that Christian schoolboy academic guy.
Shit, man, he nearly did it with me!
Gives you an idea of how desperate he is!
@ Frank.
Thanks for this.
https://youtu.be/8B7xr_EjbzE
@frank
Osho is not wholly wrong when he says ‘unawareness’ is the problem. If people were more aware and sensitive to their inner nature – which is love and trust – they would not do these things which would harm others.
So much of the negative stuff which we carry in our minds is born of trauma, it takes time to let go of the shit and come back to love.
@Nityaprem
Quotes Osho:
“If people were more aware and sensitive to their inner nature – which is love and trust – they would not do these things which would harm others.”
This is a statement I can fully agree with. See my comment “The Doors to Heaven are….”
@ Lokesh. 4 March, 2022 at 6:37 pm
I’m sure he’s feeling quite giddy knowing you’ve given him your seal of approval.
Trust, trusting is a work in progress.
In part about screwing up and finding out the world doesn’t come to an end.
Developing trust through trial and error in perceptions, feelings, decisions and capacity for dealing with consequences.
Developing trust in dealing with what happens, warming or difficult. Not always nice.
Trusting the strong impulse to tell someone to fuck off. Trusting the impulse to reach out, to help out, to be quiet and listen to someone. Even trusting one’s capacity to prepare a meal for friends on time, that’s edible.
Trusting capacity to follow through after saying I will help you out with that.
Mundane and sacred.
Some people know they can’t trust themselves with a bottle of beer within reach.
My guess is you will gob off because I used the word “sacred”.
Enjoy.
@Arpana
Lovely, well-worded comment. Summing it up and looked at from various angles.
High 10. Appreciate its usefulness, indeed.
Makes sense to me, Arpana
@ Shanti
Yes, that’s my view. They are projecting their younger selves out, younger selves who were unable to commit and ran away when the going got tough then can’t accept responsibility for not getting anywhere.
Like Hitler said, “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.”
Arpana, you have been repeating the lie that I ran away from Osho for years. It’s bullshit.
Anyway, who are you to speak? You hardly spent any time around Osho. And the little time that you did spend does not seem to have benefitted you much…leaving you with a spiritual hangover based in sentimentality.
The idea that you have to ‘get’ somewhere on the path is kindergarten nonsense.
Actually, that statement, “ =a lie repeated a thousand times becomes a truth” is attributed to Joseph Goebbels.
Yet, in 1869, in ‘The Crown of a Life’, it was written by Isa Blagden:
“If a lie is only printed often enough, it becomes a quasi-truth, and if such a truth is repeated often enough, it becomes an article of belief, a dogma, and men will die for it.”
Therefore it is known by many propagandists.
@ Lokesh
Given you are so far above me why do you care what I say about you?
Lokesh said to Arpana:
”Anyway, who are you to speak? You hardly spent any time around Osho.”
So you are saying I have no right to question you because you are superior to me.
PC Arpana, I have no idea what warped logic you are pursuing to come to the conclusion that I am in some way above you, and your need to keep on repeating it.
May I remind you that this is a blogsite. If you write something addressed to me it elicits a response on my part. This has nothing to do with my caring about what you say about me, which again illustrates the position of warped logic you are coming from, because it should by now be obvious that nothing you say about me on SN is taken seriously by me.
On that note I might add: A few times you have mentioned how your respect for me evaporated after I joked about your TM trauma. I share the same sentiment for you after having listened to that soppy podcast interview you did some time back. Pathetic. Maybe my assesment of the poodcast is wrong, so why not repost the podcast link and see what other bloggers have to say about it?
Lokesh, in response to a 17 words post, wrote a post of 172 words, which included the phrase, ”because it should by now be obvious that nothing you say about me on SN is taken seriously by me.”
Phew!!! Thank God you are indifferent to me!!
@ Lokesh, re podcast:
I am impressed. I knew you’d use that as a stick to beat me with me at some point, but never crossed my mind you could have restrained yourself for so long.
If you want everyone to hear the podcast, you post the link.
Lokesh, on 6 March, 2022, you described Arpana’s podcast as “soppy” and “a load of sentimental tosh” and “Pathetic”
Such a strong reaction like this from you is probably because what Arpana spoke about likely challenges your ego construct of ‘knowing better’ – yet not having the same experiences as others. Arpana does speak of those things such as the love for his master, his connection with his master (in the here and now, not something from the 1970s), experiences of bliss and love for Osho which you yourself on occasions have attempted to deny other disciples of Osho here on SN – which has made the site appear quite ‘cult-like’ at times if a cult means that people are not allowed to express various sentiments or experiences without being chastised or condemned.
Where can I find this podcast?
Was it ever on SN?
PC Arpana, the word counter, sorry to disappoint but I speed type and I spent all of three minutes in the response you are referring to.
I see you have not posted the podcast link. Hardly surprising, seeing as how it is a load of sentimental tosh. I have the link, but out of respect, I leave it up to you whether to repost it or not.
PC Arpana asks in the cross-examination room, “So you are saying I have no right to question you because you are superior to me?”
No, I am not saying that. I am asking you, “Who are you to speak?”
Relax, guys, this is getting out of hand.
Time to meditate.
Take a deep breath and read some Osho quotes to calm down:
“Rape is the ultimate in longing for a woman.”
“There is sexual abuse of children because they are kept in darkness by their parents, by their teachers. Love is something like a sin that has to be done in darkness, and nobody is to know about it. You are doing something ugly.
In your own mind it is something ugly, something that should not be done. You are not rejoicing in it.
Rejoice! Make love a festive moment. And of course, your children have to take part in it. They can at least dance around you while you are making love, sing beautiful songs around you, play on their small guitars, drums. They can make it really festive!”
“Guys can`t tell the difference between their wives and their dogs.”
Keep breathing….
@ Frank
No change, Frank! Trust Osho. Trust his intentions.
Don’t trust your intentions, Frank.
If a dog took a dump in the finest garden in the world, Frank, you’d see the dump and not the rest of the garden.
Frank, I’m not 100% sure, the wisdom of insecurity and all that, but this all might be a device for our awakening. Perhaps we should ask PC Arpana as he seems to be an authority on such matters, even though he suffers from an inferiority complex.
Arpana, you say:
“If a dog took a dump in the finest garden in the world, Frank, you’d see the dump and not the rest of the garden.”
Yes, a useful skill actually, because like that, I would keep my shoes clean and be able to enjoy the rest of the garden without squelching around smelling of shit for the rest of the day!
Maybe something to learn?
@Arps
Why should Frank trust Osho?
Doubt Osho is fine for him, if it fits.
@Satchit
Frank is a sophistical rhetorician, inebriated with the exuberance of his own verbosity, and gifted with an egotistical imagination that can at all times command an interminable and inconsistent series of arguments to malign an opponent and to glorify himself.
That`s a pretty decent testimonial.
I think I might use that on my business cards.
@ Frank
Not surprised.
Cant imagine the original object of the insult wasn’t enthralled to be maligned in that way.
Read your testimonial out to the wife (or was it the dog? I can`t tell).
Anyway, she loved it and said: “Forget about your business cards, I want that on your gravestone.”
Cheers.
Benjamin Disraeli Quotes…
“A sophistical* rhetorician, inebriated with the exuberance of his own verbosity, and gifted with an egotistical imagination that who can at all times command an interminable and inconsistent series of arguments to malign an opponent and glorify himself.”
*sophistical: “clever and plausible, but unsound and tending to mislead, eg a sophistical argument”.
PC Arpana hints that this might have come from someone else although obliquely. Probably an effort to impress Frank with his linguistic skills, due to the PC’s inferiority complex.
Arps has been copy and pasting the works of famous people?
How deeply shocking.
I haven`t been so shocked since I caught Swami Bhorat smoking hippy crack, reading ‘Viz’ and getting blown by some female disciples.
@ Frank and Lokesh
http://www.wikifortio.com/574638/Arpana.mp3
The only reason you haven’t posted the link to the podcast, Lokesh, is because you can only take it for granted Frank will denigrate me.
Further to that, you don’t want to take the risk of me getting good feedback.
PC Arpana, the only reason I did not post the link was out of respect for another human being, even if it is PC Arpana in this case.
I really do not care what kind of feedback you get. The podcast is host to a mushy sentimentality and overseriousness about oneself that knocks my cringe meter into the red, not to mention the profusion of hackneyed spiritual cliches. You come across like a drama queen…which is why Shanti can relate to you.
Don’t make a fuss, just get on the bus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LineNDAOThQ
Heil Lokesh.
Your elevated indifference is an inspiration to all.
After interviewing all old Osho sannyasins and `being totally in love` with Osho for a few years, the LoveOsho podcasters, Chetna and Swaram who did this interview have gone solo and don`t even mention Osho any more.
(And their podcasts don`t seem to be operative any more._
Here`s their website:
https://www.blissout.co/about
I `m guessing that all the abuse scandals and stories about Osho getting sucked off on the quiet etc must have freaked them out.
Don`t worry Arps. I`m unlikely to listen to the pod. I`ve listened to a couple of those of people I knew and not to put too fine a point on it, I`d rather have my tongue stapled to the floor of an Indian toilet with a rusty croquet hoop during rainy season whilst listening to some old bloke going on about when England won the world cup!
Cheers!
I noticed that about Swaram and Chetna, I didn’t jump to the same conclusions, but I did wonder if they had withdrawn from the heat.
Swaram is ok. Seemed a decent man. He’s likely just at a ‘step-back’ place in the ongoing ‘steps-forward’ and ‘steps-back’ process of having a life.
Ah, the spiritual people are into (heavy) style marketing: don’t forget repeating name 5 or more times…
These banks are famous for exactly which credentials? Neoliberal attitudes much? Egotism extreme?
Bang a gong. I won’t sing along.
To me, there seems to have been an investment into the Osho lifestyle.
Frank,
Any links or hints to the scandal stories? I did not find much there.
No, mate, my guess is that they have just gone undercover for a while, working on a different strategy. Looks like they are trying to introduce Osho’s meditations to people outside of the Sannyas world in a different way. Those two are devotees.
Stories about Osho’s sex life may upset moralists (many things do), but the end result of any such stories will be that Osho just becomes depicted as another Lord Krishna with his gopi girls. At least in the Indian collective consciousness.
No doubt the podcasts will return in another form sooner or later. I think some of them can still be found somewhere. Osho’s enlightened bodyguard, for example, and several others, can still be found on YouTube.
Swamishanti,
Yes, that is another way of looking at it.
I wish them well with the new direction.
Not my cup of tea, however.
@ Klaus.
17 March, 2022 at 10:27 am.
Which post is this referring to, Klaus?
It refers to Frank’s post 9.49h:
The blissout webpage….
You’ll love this, Frank.
A joke about your gang.
A man went into the confessional and said to his priest, “I almost had an affair with another woman.”
The priest said, “What do you mean, “almost”? The man said, “Well, we got undressed and rubbed together, but then I stopped!” The priest said, “Rubbing together is the same as putting it in. You’re not to see that woman again. For your penance, say five Hail Marys and put $50 in the poor box!”
The man left the confessional, said his prayers, and then walked over to the poor box. He paused for a moment and then started to leave.
The priest, who was watching, quickly ran over to him saying, “I saw that. You didn’t put any money in the poor box!”
The man replied, “Yeah, but I rubbed the $50 on the box, and according to you, that’s the same as putting it in!”
That’s the beauty of that series ‘From Death to Deathlessness’, which Osho gave at the Ranch. He forces you to think for yourselves; in some parts he will say things that many would consider shocking or disgusting, in other parts, incredible beauty. Of course, which parts each listener likes depends on the individual.
“ Trust is of the heart, belief is of the mind. They are diametrically opposite, they never meet. They can run parallel to each other, but they will never meet. Belief will remain hollow, without any content, and trust is overflowing with joy, blissfulness.
You say you trust me. That’s enough, more than enough.
I don’t want you to believe in my statements, because my statements go on changing every day. If you believe in my statements you are going to be crazy. They are so contradictory, you will not be able to figure out what I actually want to say to you.
But trust remains the same — the same flavour, the same grace, the same beauty, because it is not a statement of the mind. It is not a statement at all. It is a silent communion between two hearts, a silent communion in which two hearts synchronize; their beats become a rhythm, their vibe takes the same colour and aroma.
What the hell am I doing here?
Persuading you every day that you should not agree with anyone! You should be yourself. You were agreeing with Jesus, you were agreeing with Moses, and now you have started agreeing with me.
But you remain the same – the agreeing fool. Your subjects change, but you don’t change!
I am talking to you in such a way that if you have a little intelligence you cannot agree with me. Every day I go on contradicting myself. How long are you going to put up with me? Sooner or later you will say, ”I cannot agree with all these contradictions.” And that’s exactly what I want.
I want you to agree with yourself – a great agreement with whatever you are.”
(OSHO: ‘From Death to Deathlessness’)
“And I speak not to emphasize a certain psychology, a certain theology – I do not speak to programme your mind. I cannot humiliate any human being by programming his mind. Programming the mind of a human being means you are reducing the man to a machine.”
“His question was relevant. He was puzzled: “There are people who have been with you for twenty, thirty years – can’t they see these many contradictions? And they go on believing in you?” He was simply using the word “belief” wrongly.
My people trust me, love me. It is not a question of my statements to them. They enjoy my statements, it is good entertainment, but it is not a belief system for which you have to live and die. It is only pure entertainment. You have just to laugh and enjoy.
My real work is going on underground. Whatever I am doing is just creating a situation so your head is engaged. And my real approach, my target, is your heart, not your skull. And it is the best way I have found to sort out people. Those who approach me rationally will soon find the way towards Santa Fe. Santa Fe is going to be a world-famous place. All the camels of different sizes and shapes!
To be with me you have to learn one art, and that is, don’t take my statements seriously. For the moment enjoy them, but don’t expect that I am not going to contradict them. Don’t impose any expectations of yours on me. I never impose any expectations on you. At least this much you can do – a simple thing.
For centuries masters have been imposing their ideas on the disciples. I am not imposing any of my ideas on you. Don’t from your side insist on how I should behave, what I should say or not say; accept that saying something will create contradiction, saying it will create hostility in people outside, saying it will create unnecessary confusion. Don’t expect anything from me. Open your heart. That is where the real surgery has to happen.
And once you have known the beauty, the joy, the blessing of dancing in tune with my heart, you will never be bothered by what I said yesterday, what I said ten years ago. Leave all this to people whose profession is gravedigging. Let them settle with the skeletons of the past.
You be here now in this moment, part of my life, part of my love, part of my being. Let me reach you in your innermost core. Allow me to touch your centre.
The head is only the periphery, and I am not interested in your heads. I don’t count heads, I count the hearts.”
(OSHO : ‘From Death to Deathlessness’)
“I am not interested in your head.”
That`s not what quite a few Mas have been saying on Facebook, recently!
I could hear Frankie Howard going…ooooh!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brsmsh-6SSo&list=PLKSMu7dPK4ZfiqHNDrrHU70Mmu0CKoHOK
Frank,
are you a sannyasin or have you been a sannyasin?
If none of this, what is your motivation to play the moral policeman?
Cherry-picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position while ignoring a significant portion of related and similar cases or data that may contradict that position.
@ Frank
Some people go looking for rare orchids and occasionally find what they are looking for.
You, Frank, go looking for rancid, putrid, rotting carcasses and you come back here and wave what you have found over your head like a trophy, telling yourself you’ve uncovered some fine treasure which makes you feel oh so very important.
Beautiful quotes, and very much to the point. Thanks, @swamishanti.
“I want you to agree with yourself – a great agreement with whatever you are.”
Means: Be a light to yourself!
OSHO: ‘Contradictions a Creative Doorway’
https://youtu.be/Wn0WTKer7Wc
“When the mind closes shop…”
Step 1:
Thinking & feeling
Step 2:
Feeling & being
“Looks like we’re into nasty weather…” – John Fogerty and Brad Paisley Live
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GaE_X5k3iE
I am full of song, again, today:
‘Sit down, young stranger’ – Gordon Lightfoot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiqILSkr8l8&list=RDGMEMQ1dJ7wXfLlqCjwV0xfSNbA&index=27
Formidable lyrics, me feels.
“I try to contradict myself as often as I can. So that finally your mind closes shop. And the only reaction left is laughing out loud.”
LOL.
Beautiful video, Arps.
@Shanti.
I’ve been aware for a number of years now of those long pauses during his discourses, and I’m really drawn to said gaps, in fact I might even have started to wait for the moments which I find mesmerising, and I just sit and scrutinise him when that happens; but I realised watching that one, not only am I waiting for the pauses, scrutinising him during the silence, I also stop breathing.
The first question:
Question 1
WHAT’S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MADMAN AND A DEVOTEE?
Not much. And yet much. Both are mad but their madness has a totally different quality to it; the centre of madness is different. The madman is mad from the head; the devotee is mad from the heart.
The madman is mad because of a failure. His logic failed He could not go on with the head anymore, any longer. There comes a point for the logical mind where breakdown is a must, because logic goes well up to a certain limit then suddenly it is no longer real, then it is no longer true to reality.
Life is illogical. It is wild. In life, contradictions are not contradictions but complementaries. Life does not believe in the division of either/or, life believes in both. The day becomes night, the night becomes day. They melt and merge. Boundaries are not clear. Everything is overlapping everything else: you are overlapping into your beloved, your beloved is overlapping into you. Your child is still a part of you and yet he is independent. Boundaries are blurred.
Logic makes clear-cut boundaries. For clarity it dissects life into two, into a duality. Then clarity is achieved but aliveness is lost. At the cost Of aliveness, logic achieves clarity.
So if you are a mediocre mind, you may never go mad. That means you are just lukewarmly logical, and much that is illogical goes on existing in you side by side. But if you are really logical, then the ultimate result can be only madness. The more logical you are the more you will be intolerant of anything illogical. And life is illogical. So you will become by and by intolerant of life itself; you will become more and more closed. You will deny life, you will not deny logic. Then finally you break down — this is the failure of logic.
Almost all the great philosophers who are logical, go mad. If they don’t go mad, they are not great philosophers. Nietzsche went mad; Bertrand Russell never went mad He is not such a great philosopher, he is in a way mediocre. He goes on living with his commonsense — he is a commonsensical philosopher, he does not move to the very extreme. Nietzsche moved to the very extreme and, of course, then There is the abyss.
Madness is the failure of the head and in life there are millions of situations where suddenly the head is irrelevant.
Osho.
Ancient Music in the Pines
Chapter #6
Chapter title: Madmen and Devotees
26 February 1976 am in Buddha Hall
Indeed, very fitting quote, Arpana (9 March, 8.25)
Lokesh piped (2 March, 2022 at 9:51 am):
“That’s the problem with Osho’s wonky verbal vision. Idiots adopt it as their own instead of going to the bother of creating their own unique vision, because they are too cowardly and lazy. Sheep. Far too much importance has been placed on Osho’s words and that is not a good thing because they are so full of contradictions, which I believe was intentional on Osho’s part because he did not want people to make a religion out of his words.”
The problem here is that you appear to believe, that you have found some kind of original and special understanding, when in reality you are preaching to the converted. There is nothing new here which any sannyasin won’t already understand, or at least have imbibed themselves from reading or listening to Osho, or watching his vids.
You have simply absorbed parts of Osho’s talks from the seventies, which all other sannyasins get. Even some of those new sannyasins who are well into watching the vids from the 1980s, on YouTube, are afraid of a religion being created out of Osho. However, this is because, Osho was incredibly clever at putting that message across, especially when talking on his own ‘religion’, at Rajneeshpuram. Those talks form the majority of the Osho videos available on YouTube.
You continued:
“When they were delivered live, his words kept the mind busy while the real transmission actually took place, if you were fortunate enough to be open and available to that transmission happening. Now, forty years down the line, the monkeys are still parroting his words, completely unaware of how foolish that is. They adopt Osho’s contradictory verbal vision of life as their own and end up as confused as the times we are living in.”
What you say about the transmission is absolutely true, but what you don’t understand is that this transmission is still very much available in the same way, if you are open. I get the transmission in the here and now from watching the videos and it can be very intense, and the same for listening to the audios. When Osho is dancing at the Ranch is particularly beautiful energy-wise.
You have developed an ego complex out of the idea that you are more independent than the rest of the ‘sannyasins’, who are well into Osho.
Yet this is a false notion as Osho’s whole talking process generally revolves around helping his listeners, towards independent and rebellious minds.
The others who you imagine are ‘sheep’, are in fact nothing of the sort.
They all have their own takes on Osho and what they will agree with and disagree with from his talks.
You are , in reality , in no way superior to any of the others who are still in love with Osho today.
Shanti, I appreciate the effort you took to make the above comment. Unfortunately, you miss my point entirely. Reminds me of a line from a Frank Zappa song, ‘Cosmic Debris’: “Look here, brother, don’t you waste your time on me.”
I do not feel superior to anyone. Me thinking I am in some way superior is a line that Arpana came up with ages ago and repeats from time to time. Now you are parroting it. Like Hitler said, “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” Well, it worked on you.
Belief Bias
If a conclusion supports your existing beliefs, you’ll rationalise anything that supports it.
It’s difficult for you to set aside your existing beliefs to consider the true merits of an argument. In practice, this means that your ideas become impervious to criticism, and are perpetually reinforced. Instead of thinking about your beliefs in terms of true or false, it’s probably better to think of them in terms of probability. For example, you might assign a 95%+ chance that thinking in terms of probability will help you think better, and a less than 1% chance that your existing beliefs have no room for any doubt. Thinking probabilistically forces you to evaluate more rationally.
A useful thing to ask is ‘when and how did you get this belief?’ You automatically defend your ideas without ever really questioning them.
Why do you think @swamishanti is parroting @Arpana? It seems to me if people are independently coming up with this conclusion, it’s worth considering seriously if there is some truth in it.
Nitya, seeing as how I am on the receiving end of the parrot’s comments I think I am in a good position to judge what is going on. Besides, is considering things seriously something you deem to be a real sannyasin attitude?
Besides, I know for a fact that Shanti has grown feathers and a beak.
BTW, I was asking my son, Premada, if he remembered you from Poona One. Same age and he was there from 76 to 81. He did not remember you. He was a wee lad with blonde hair, a catapult, blue eyes and hung around the ashram hustling money. even though he did not need it. He was pals with Sid and the rest of the gang.
What I wrote reflected my own insight, was not parroting Arpana in this case. I have used the same word, ‘superior’, that’s all.
The spiritual ego likes to feel superior in some way or another.
Squwk! Yeah, I read the book…several times. An all-time favourite.
@Lokesh
I am still waiting for a response to the following post:
Lokesh said to Arpana: ”Anyway, who are you to speak? You hardly spent any time around Osho.”
So you are saying I have no right to question you because you are superior to me.
Superior, superior, superior – sounds like a stuck record. Superior/inferior perspective in this respect requires comparison and as Osho once said, “Do not compare yourself to others. If you do so, you are insulting yourself.”
Sounds like sound advice.
@ Lokesh who wrote:
”Osho once said, ‘Do not compare yourself to others. If you do so, you are insulting yourself.’ ” And then added, “sounds like sound advice.”
I’m a little surprised you are quoting Osho at me, given you’ve made it clear so many times you have nothing to learn from him; indeed, in your view, Osho has much to learn from you.
Would you care to explain the following to me?
Lokesh said to Arpana: ”Anyway, who are you to speak? You hardly spent any time around Osho.”
Arpana, it’s a ‘gotcha’ moment. I was not quoting Osho. It was Adolf Hitler who was first credited with saying that about comparison. Just the sort of thing you’d expect me to do, I suppose. The joke’s on you. Trust this does not aggravate your inferiority complex.
@ Lokesh.
Not at all surprised. You have referenced Nazis and Hitler on a number of occasions. No one else ever does, but obviously because you do, a good thing.
You pathologise referencing Osho, but have managed to convince yourself you referencing Hitler and the Nazis, Goering, is proof of how spiritual you are.
Yeah, I am a regular old neo-Nazi skinhead. If you ever visit Ibiza I invite you to see my collection of Slade albums…vinyl of course.
My point is you did not notice the difference between a quote by a Nazi and one by Osho, I thought you were hoping to graduate to the SN branch of the CID. It is not going to happen. Better to stick with trusting Osho’s intentions.
We`ve heard what women`s ultimate longing is.
No for PC Arpana`s ultimate longing ….
Heil Lokesh, Self-deceiver.
@ Lokesh
What did you mean by this?
Lokesh said to Arpana: ”Anyway, who are you to speak? You hardly spent any time around Osho.”
@Lokesh. who wrote
”My point is you did not notice the difference between a quote by a Nazi and one by Osho.”
So you are now saying you are on a higher plane than me because I am interested in Osho, which you are not; and also on a higher plane because you are interested in Hitler and the Nazis, and have managed to convince yourself by quoting Hitler as follows: “Do not compare yourself to others. If you do so, you are insulting yourself.” Which proves no more than that you see quoting Hitler as valid alongside your routine sulking and pouting when others post Osho quotes at a site called Sannyas News with a picture of Osho on the masthead.
It’s not called ‘Lokesh Nazi News’.
@Lokesh
He sounds familiar, I think I met him once or twice. I was only in Poona 1 for about three months, then we returned to the Netherlands. The trip made a big impression on me though, everything from the encounter with Indian toilets to riding on the back of an elephant.
I will maybe send a photo at some point.
Coming to a cinema near you, Frederico Fellini’s posthumous masterpiece, ‘Satchitycon’, starring PC Arpana as the one-eyed bobby with a helmet, prowling the labyrinth of SN Central ready to pounce on unsuspecting females and pound them with his truncheon as his wicked master commands.
Do you post just to make fun of people? It seems that way. There is a lot of negativity in what you say, cynicism under the guise of wit. Not really a very sannyasin attitude.
Nitya, is being judgemental a very sannyasin attitude?
I remember ‘the ego sensitiveness’ and ‘the awareness support by a Buddhist cuppa tea’ quote…
Is this the one SD said, “it was a good one”? Was there another one?
Would have really liked to look up “the good one”. Hahahaha.
It is okay. Anyways.
MOD:
The text Arpana originally posted is alive and well: March 1st, 8.39am (which SD appreciated at 3.09pm the same day).
Oh, thanks!
But Nitya,
Lokesh is not a sannyasin.
He is an ex-sannyasin who makes fun of sannyasins.
Satchit, the “ex-sannyasin” number has already been flogged to death by PC Arpana, who has a bigger truncheon than you and is a sergeant in the SN Thought Police, while you are a lowly private.
I know my comments are sometimes off, but mostly I strive for originality, even if I do not always succeed. So maybe you should endeavour to come up with something new, instead of scraping the bottom of a very rusty barrel.
Loco, the number can easily have a reincarnation.
Everbody who has eyes can see that you as an ex-sannyasin and your never-have-been-sannyasin friend Sancho Frankie Panza make a crusade against innocent sannyasins like Arpana and me. Be aware!
Satchit you sound like a nagging wife, playing a stuck record.
“Innocent sannyasins”. That’s a good one.
Oh-oh, SN has gone all quiet again. Like a ceasefire. The other day I saw, for the first time, six regulars online simultaneously. Now it is back to an Osho vid link and a couple of Youtube links to pop songs. A sign of the times.
PC Arpana has locked himself in an isolation cell after being exposed as a plagiarist (something he learned by copying Osho), giving a terrible shock to Frank, by posting a Disraeli quote as if it were his own. (Disraeli was a British statesman and Conservative politician who twice served as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. He played a central role in the creation of the modern Conservative Party, according to Wikipedia. Cream used his name in a groundbreaking album, ‘Disraeli Gears’. The album is considered by critics as one of the greatest albums of all time).
Rumour has it that the disgraced PC has sunk into a deep depression because he has no one on to attack, book on trumped-up charges, or put in their place. Now, all he has for company is his truncheon, which is all bent out of shape due to overuse.
Satchit has run out of one-liners.
Shanti has gone all shanti and is down at the local library, copying quotes from religious texts that he hopes to employ soon on SN, with the idea in mind that this will impress SN’s readers.
Shantam Prem just turned 60 and continues his crusade on Facebook, giving talks to an army of followers that may soon pass double digits.
Life goes on and in the Ukraine death and destruction continues unabated.
Perhaps SD, who PC Arpana dubbed a “good egg”, will make everyone happy by uploading a new topic and get the cannonball rolling again.
Meanwhile, Frank is basking in glory, due to having composed one of the most commented upon articles in SN’s glorious history.
Whatever happened to Madame Kavita?
MOD:
A new topic is waiting, created by Nityaprem.
Yes, it’s true, I did create a new article. Thought I would put a slightly different spin on things. You will have to wait and see…
But I notice discussions on here seem to take on a life of their own, taking in all kinds of topics that aren’t really related to the original article. Sometimes 40 posts in a day, sometimes 6, depending on who is around and how tempers get riled.
Yes, there is a factual level and a relationship level. The relationship level can go into the wild wild country.
@ Satchit
Interesting distinction!!
@Satchit
I find your comment interesting, too.
In the last days I stumbled over this straightforward account of Susan Harfouche on how she became attracted to and totally fell in love with Osho.
How she wanted to go to the Ranch and finally managed to get there for the build-up. She had an insight into herself – and the workings of the hierarchy – and then straightforwardly left.
Interesting.
https://oshounveiled.blogspot.com/2020/08/susans-experiences-in-rajneeshpuram.html
In the course of reading I saw another link and came to this article:
https://newrepublic.com/article/147657/outside-limits-human-imagination
A rather long kind of documentation starting with the Eva Renzi story in a Poona 1 encounter group and passing via explanations of the meaning of Bhagwan/God in self-declaration until the final days at the Ranch.
So, there is the relationship level between the facts.
Today during fitness training I had to close my eyes to collect all driving impulses and fell into a total silence for a while.
My interpretation is that the need to go and stay inside currently is a kind of protective impulse with regard to overflow and superficiality.
Cheers.
That article is also in regard to the deeds of the “innocent sannyasins” besides what happened at the Ranch.
@Klaus
I read the Susan Harfouche story. It’s interesting because she was so upset by the hierarchy that she left and didn’t want to follow Osho anymore. She essentially abandoned the spiritual search.
The hierarchy I feel is just something that gets in the way of searching out the words of the enlightened. People who seek power tend to also be corrupted by it, and that is true for those close to the enlightened as well.
Perhaps Papaji was right in his approach, to just allow people to come and say what he had to say, but not allow them to stay.
@Nityaprem
I like her straightforward approach and the totality of her doings there. She had a transcendent experience, too:
“I went straight home to my tent ready to die.
This feeling lasted only several hours, and then like a miracle I transcended everything so totally it was like magic. Instead of my ego being crushed and destroyed, I felt alive and new like never before! I really didn’t care about anything here! All this was not necessary for me.
Why should I throw my life away, worshipping Bhagwan and serving not only him, but Sheela, Vidya, anybody and everybody?
I knew I could connect directly with the divine on my own because I’d done it before!”
So, imo she will come back to this in her daily life time and again.
That is more than most people on any spiritual path can hope for in this life, me judges.
My idea of a spiritual centre resembles quite much an open style Buddhist temple, where people come to practise, feel and see every now and then. And then walk away freely on their own impulse.
Cheers.
‘The Guest House’, by Rumi
This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.
A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.
Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they are a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still, treat each guest honourably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.
The dark thought, the shame, the malice.
Meet them at the door laughing and invite them in.
Be grateful for whatever comes.
Because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.
One of my favourite poems, Arpana.
This fragment of Hakim Sanai’s Hadiqa spoke to me even more, for me it shows the whole spiritual impulse in just a few words…
We tried reasoning
our way to Him:
it did not work;
but the moment we gave up,
no obstacle remained.
My friend, everything existing
exists through him;
your own existence is a mere pretence.
No more nonsense! Lose yourself,
and the hell of your heart becomes a heaven.
Lose yourself, and anything can be accomplished.
Your selfishness is an untrained colt.
Melt yourself down in his search:
venture your life and your soul
in the path of sincerity;
strive to pass from nothingness to being,
and make yourself drunk with the wine of God.
@ Nityaprem.
I took Sannyas in the West before I went to Poona in the 70s, and received a message with my name from Osho, along with my mala, which I still have; and that poem pretty much says what Osho said to me, at greater length in fact, which is why the piece made such an impression and then the translation is particularly poetic, close to aphoristic.
More pics from inside PC Arpana`s mind:
Seriously tho`.
Skinheads can sometimes supply valuable spiritual teachings and life lessons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfyIW8oraUk
@Frank
I remember seeing that not long after the ad campaign began, and I was enthralled, being a fully paid-up Guardian reader then.
The point I’m leading up to is, apparently, the advertising campaign was a complete flop. The only individuals the film reached were Guardian and Independent readers; and readers of the Daily Mail, Sun, Mirror and Express etc. actually didn’t remember seeing the advert at the time, as reported in the Guardian.
Was filmed in Scotland, of course.
Scotland the brave – Dropkick Murphys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2ctpx0zYgk
Rock on, Celts!
@ Frank.
You do realise that’s a film about perspective and seeing things from different angles? That it’s a film about not viewing through a narrow prism of prejudice, preconceived notions and confirmation bias?
No, I thought it was about a skinhead running away from a rival gang to attack some ponce with a briefcase, and that it was just a coincidence that a pallet of bricks happened to be falling down from the sky at that moment.
I bet that after that, the skin must have kicked the ponce`s head in and nicked his briefcase as he was obviously a right stupid twat not to notice he had a ton of bricks dangling above his nut.
“Lord Indra himself has said, ‘The mind of woman cannot be disciplined; she has very little intelligence.’
— Rig Veda 8:33:17.
“All wives of the host reciting three mantras go round the horse. While praying, they say: ‘O horse, you are, protector of the community on the basis of good qualities, you are, protector or treasure of happiness. O horse, you become my husband’. After the animal is purified by the priest, the principal wife sleeps near the horse and says: ‘O Horse, I extract the semen worth conception and you release the semen worth conception. The horse and principal wife spread two legs each. Then the Ardhvaryu (priest) orders to cover the oblation place, raise canopy etc. After this, the principal wife of the host pulls penis of the horse and puts it in her vagina and says: ‘This horse may release semen in me. Then the host, while praying to the horse says: “O horse, please throw semen on the upper part of the anus of my wife. Expand your penis and insert it in the vagina because after insertion, this penis makes women happy and lively.’ – Yajur Veda 23.19-21
“Surely, a woman who has changed her clothes at the end of her menstrual period is the most auspicious of women. When she has changed her clothes at the end of her menstrual period, therefore, one should approach that splendid woman and invite her to have sex. Should she refuse to consent, he should bribe her. If she still refuses, he should beat her with a stick or with his fists and overpower her, saying: “I take away the splendor from you with my virility and splendour. – Brhadārankyaka Upanishad (6.4.9,21)
From the ‘Laws of Manu’:
“It is the nature of women to seduce men in this world; which is why even the wise are cautious in the company of women.
Wise people should avoid sitting alone with one’s mother, daughter or sister. Since carnal desire is always strong, it can lead to temptation.
Food offered and served to a brahman after the Shradh ritual should not be seen by a chandal (a person belonging to low caste), a pig, a rooster, a dog, and a menstruating woman.
A brahman, a true defender of his class, should not have his meals in the company of his wife and should avoid even looking at her. Furthermore, he should not look at her when she is having her meals or when she sneezes/yawns.
In order to preserve his energy and intellect, a brahman must not look at women while she applies collyrium to her eyes, one who is massaging her nude body or one who is delivering a child.
One should not accept meals from a woman who has extramarital relations; nor from a family exclusively dominated/managed by women or a family who has witnessed recent death.
A female child, young woman or old woman is not supposed to work independently even at her place of residence.
Girls are supposed to be in the custody of their father when they are children, women under the custody of their husband when married, and under the custody of her son as widows. In no circumstances is she allowed to assert herself independently.
Men may be lacking virtue, be sexual perverts, immoral and devoid of any good qualities, and yet women must not cease to worship or serve their husbands
Women have no divine right to perform any religious ritual, make vows or observe a fast. Her only duty is to obey and please her husband, if she wants to be exalted in heaven.
After the death of her husband, let her emaciate her body by living only on pure flowers, roots of vegetables and fruits. She should not mention the name of any other men after her husband has died.
Any woman violating duty and code of conduct towards her husband, is disgraced and would become a patient of leprosy. After death, she would enter the womb of a jackal.
In case a lady enjoys sex with a man from a higher caste, the act is not punishable. However, if she enjoys sex with lower caste men, she is to be punished and kept in isolation.
In case a woman tears the membrane (hymen) of her vagina, she shall instantly have her head shaved or have two fingers cut off and made to ride on Donkey.
If a female, who is proud of the greatness of her excellence or her relatives, violates her duty towards her husband, the king shall arrange to have her thrown before dogs at a public place.
It is the duty of all husbands to exert total control over their wives. Even physically weak husbands must strive to control their wives.
While performing namkarm and jatkarm (rituals), Vedic mantras are not to be recited by women, because they lack in strength and knowledge of Vedic texts. Women are impure and represent falsehood.
Any woman who disobeys orders even of her lethargic, alcoholic or diseased husband shall be deserted for three months and be deprived of her ornaments.
A barren wife may be superseded in the 8th year; she whose children die may be superseded in the 10th year and she who bears only daughters may be superseded in the the11th year, but she who is quarrelsome may be superseded without delay.
In case of a problem in performing religious rites, males between the age of 24 and 30 should marry a female between the age of 8 and 12.
In case a brahman man marries a shudra woman, their son will be called ‘parshav’ or ‘shudra’ because his social existence is that of a dead body.
Brahman men can marry brahman, kshatriya, vaishnava and even shudra women but shudra men can marry only shudra women. However, in no situation should men from the other castes marry a shudra woman. If they do so, they would be responsible for the degradation of their family.
The offerings made by such a person at the time of established rituals are neither accepted by God nor by the departed soul; guests would also refuse to have meals with him and he is bound to go to hell after death.”
@swamishanti
Just goes to show that the writers of the Upanishads could also be violent and perverse. It is no reason to take it seriously, and it casts a different light on the whole Upanishad because if their minds were that far in the gutter, who knows where the rest of their writings came from?
“O horse, please throw semen on the upper part of the anus of my wife. Expand your penis and insert it in the vagina because after insertion, this penis makes women happy and lively.’
It certainly makes “Our Father…” and “Hail Mary…” look pretty tame.
This particular Upanishad, the Brhadārankyaka Upanishad, from which the procreation advice verses are taken, also contains the famous ‘Pavamana Mantra’:
asato mā sadgamaya,
tamaso mā jyotirgamaya,
mṛtyormā’mṛtaṃ gamaya.
“Lead me from the unreal to the real, from darkness lead me to light, from death lead me to immortality.”
This is the mantra that inspired Osho to name some of the series of talks he gave on the Ranch, ‘From Death to Deathlessness’, ‘From Darkness to Light’, ‘From the False to the Truth’, etc. Later renamed after originally published as the ‘Rajneesh Bible’.
There is a chapter included in this Upanishad:
Chapter IV: Conception and Birth as Religious Rites
I read an alternative translation of the quote taken from the Brhadārankyaka Upanishad (6.4.9,21):
“If she does not willingly yield her body to him, he should buy her with presents. If she is still unyielding, he should strike her with a stick or with his hand and overcome her, repeating the following mantra:
“With power and glory I take away your glory.”
Thus she becomes discredited.
If she grants his desire, he should repeat the following mantra:
“With power and glory I give you glory.”
Thus they both become glorious.”
The fact is that in India it has been considered the right of a man to rape his wife for thousands of years, and, to beat her. The verses which discuss and condone this in this Upanishad, which is one of the oldest Upanishads, as well as other Hindu scriptures, such as the oldest Rig Veda, are a reflection of this part of Indian society.
What can one say from a heart point of view?
Dropping ideologies is a good thing, imo.
Certainly dropping happens out of one’s own understanding at best.
@ Klaus (The following is not meant as preachimg. Just interested in what you said, so I’m responding).
An aspect of the ”spiritual” journey is refining and integrating our ideologies, so identifying is loosened, or certainly more subtle, so we sometimes get to engage outside ideology, away from one-upmanship.
Ideology isn’t just left or right. Some are ideological about the music they listen to, the teams they support -all ideology.
Step by step is certainly ok for me.
Not only left & right, but also something like women are lesser than men etc….
How life is. How we think life is. How we think life should be.
That’s what I feel when I stand near my wife. And also other females I know.
And when the boys feel like bullies. Especially those in greyblueblack suits.
These verses are not just a reflection of the society, they have been the creators of it.
“Lead me from the unreal to the real, from darkness lead me to light, from death lead me to immortality.”
Standard religious mumbo-jumbo.
Any idiot can parrot rubbish like that and then go and rape his wife. And they do.
I call bullshit.
@swamishanti
I think this advice is madness. In Buddhism you have the Five Precepts, and one of those is to not engage in sexual misconduct. That came from India too.
What about love, respect, compassion, kindness? A tradition of beating and raping your wife turns all husbands into abusers and goes against your deep nature. Best to have nothing to do with it, and scrap the old texts.
Just because something is old doesn’t mean it has to be respected.
“Particularly in Indian villages, where wives are still beaten, if a certain husband stops beating his wife it is known that now he has stopped loving her. And even wives understand that if the husband has become totally non-violent toward them, it means the love has stopped. He is not fighting, so it means he is not loving.”
Osho: Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, vol 2
There is also a lot of wisdom in those old Hindu texts. Which were originally songs, hymns, before being written down.
The oldest known Indian scripture, the Rig Veda, contains two verses, two invocations which are the oldest, and two of the most powerful mantras in Hinduism, the Maha Mrityunjaya Mantra, and the Gayatri Mantra.
These two mantras carry incredibly powerful vibrations and can bring benefits to the listener even if the listener doesn’t understand the meaning or what the sounds mean.
So there are special vibrations all over India, not only from the energies of many enlightened souls, but also from the daily chanting of various mantras and invocations.
Playing tapes of various mantras is also very popular on the subcontinent.
I remember being woken up at 4am on one occasion by a loud rendition of the Gayatri Mantra by Anuradha Paudwal being blasted out on loudspeakers on the highest possible volume from a cassette, near to my hotel, which I wasn’t too happy about.
Yet, on another occasion, sitting in an Indian bank and listening to a gentle repetition of a mantra from a small box on the wall, was incredibly relaxing, whilst waiting for hours for a transaction that would take ten minutes in the West.
Religious nuts are often fanatical about their various texts and scriptures and rules and regulations, always believing that theirs are the best.
It is always the more open-minded ones from any tradition who are open to more possibilities. It is easy for anyone who is more open-minded, or from an Osho background, to take what they like from particular teaching or text and throw the rest in the fire, if they so wish.
Yet for the religious nuts, it is not so easy.
The five precepts may be useful for laypeople, followers of Buddhism.
Yet in Zen Buddhism, Masters have been known to use violence with their disciples, including beating with fists and sticks.
And there is the Zen story of the monk who imitated his Master. When making a point, the Master would raise his right hand, displaying one of his little fingers.
The monk developed a habit of imitating this gesture, whenever the Master was speaking.
One day in the monastery, the Master took the monk and, with a knife , cut the little finger off of his right hand.
The next time the Master gave his discourse, the monk , out of habit, raised his right hand – and then he NOTICED. That his little finger was missing. Then he got the point.
The five precepts forbid intoxicants, yet historically, some Tibetan masters have been known to occasionally drink or smoke…
I also appreciate Osho’s contribution of also smashing the old idea that an enlightened one, a Buddha, has to live without any possessions, without any comfort or material enjoyments and pleasures.
“Particularly in Indian villages, where wives are still beaten, if a certain husband stops beating his wife it is known that now he has stopped loving her. And even wives understand that if the husband has become totally nonviolent toward them, it means the love has stopped. He is not fighting, so it means he is not loving.”
Ay-up! Sid the Sexist is out and about again.
Listen and relax to magical mantras that carry enlightened vibrations and then go and beat your wife?
Yes, Shanti, you are obviously on a very high heart level. Very spiritual.
Hinduism is very complex. Good relations within marriage is also seen as a very important thing.
There are mantras for use for every possible situation, including attraction mantras.
People seeking help with their marriage relationship, infertility problems, as well as seeking a partner who would be a good match, will use mantras such as Swayamvara Parvati Mantra: https://youtu.be/WbnBoqwDDkY
Or other mantras: https://youtu.be/_fw1lNctpEs
I have also seen the tradition of young women praying for help with finding a suitable partner in the temple, after the night of Maha Shivarathri. This night marks the marriage night of Shiva and Shakti, who are considered the ultimate couple. Therefore young girls will visit the temple the next day to ask for help for finding a good marriage match.
“Hinduism is very complex. Good relations within marriage is also seen as a very important thing.”
Yes, it is complicated. I mean how on earth do they decide whether to rape the wife, beat her, sing a mantra for her or get a horse to sodomise her? Very tricky.
@Swamishanti:
Goodness. And you consider this normal relations? No wonder the girls pray for a good marriage, if those are the options.
Whatever else the Upanishads have to say, this is pretty medieval. Tell your people to get with the times, dude.
@Nityaprem, you put:
“ Whatever else the Upanishads have to say, this is pretty medieval. Tell your people to get with the times, dude.”
But they are not ‘my people’ anymore.
UK has granted India independence from British rule since 1947.
Still, the connection between the British and India has been quite a deep and intimate one.
We have given India one very large railway system, the post office, English language, built hill stations, and there is a deep connection. Ever since Clive of India first arrived in 1744, and established the East India company alongside ‘Hindoo Stuart’ and others.
As far as the five precepts in Buddhism are concerned, they are meant to be guidelines or principles for lay people. But not necessarily strict rules.
For example, one of the five precepts is the principle of non-killing, Ahimsa.
Yet the Dalai Lama has said that it is acceptable to defend oneself in the advent of attack.
(Quoted in Seattle Times, May 14, 2001) :
@ Shanti
One morning, when working at the ashram somebody had a go at me about some nonsense or other, and I had not been working very long, was floundering in that new situation, and took the nonsense on the chin; then rationalised how I had reacted on the grounds that was the right way to behave, that was “surrendered”.
About three days later I blew up about this privately, nobody actually knew how angry I was, and I went through a lengthy rush of insights which culminated in me saying to myself that I would never be on anyone else’s side against myself ever again, on the grounds that if being bloody spiritual meant being a bloody doormat then “stuff spiritual”.
(Also, retrospectively, I became quite convinced the notion of surrender as practised in those days and which was still doing the rounds in Oregon was just an unconscious continuation of the Christian notion of turning the other cheek, especially if you had been kicked in the goolies by someone higher up the pecking order).
“I went through a lengthy rush of insights which culminated in me saying to myself that I would never be on anyone else’s side against myself ever again, on the grounds that if being bloody spiritual meant being a bloody doormat then “stuff spiritual”. ”
Are you still adhering to this decision, Arps? Here at SN it certainly looks as if you are, at least the vast majority of the time. If so, then you might have missed some useful info, although I suppose it depends on your perception of what being “on anyone else’s side against myself” means. And no doubt you’d had more than enough of being browbeaten by ‘authority’ up to that point?
It seems like opposites to me…Christians indulging themselves in suppression and the horse fantasists indulge their fantasies.
Part of my motivation for writing that, SD, was to give you something to get your teeth into.
Chew away.
@ SD
As far as I am concerned Lokesh is a parasite, a leech.
In my view, standing up for something that matters is a good thing.
I have taught him there is nothing he can do that will drive me away, or destroy my trust in Osho. That will do.
That may be your view, Arpana, but it’s certainly not mine (nor, as it happens, was it the view of SN’s co-founder and former editor, Parmartha). As far as I’m concerned Lokesh has consistently been one of the most interesting and stimulating contributors over the years and moreover, his initiatives have in fact been responsible in no small measure for SN’s continuing existence during the last year or so, which I strongly suggest you bear in mind before making such extreme remarks.
He can speak for himself of course but I find the idea that he wants to drive you away and/or destroy your trust in Osho is an imagined over-reaction, possibly even verging on paranoia.
SD, ignore my 4.09 comment to you.
That’s much more antagonistic than I meant to be.
At the back of my mind as I posted the original comment, I had a feeling you would pick up on it.
Thanks, SD, for your positive and supportive comment.
I have been called a lot of things in my life, not all of them good for sure, but I have never been called a parasite and a leech. It sounds absurd to me.
Arpana declares in relation to his religious zeal for all things Osho, “In my view, standing up for something that matters is a good thing.”
In my view, that is most definitely not always a good thing. I just watched a news announcement, featuring the monster of the moment, Putin. He also appears to be standing up for something that matters. It is certainly not good, no matter how one looks at it.
Arpana shows the hallmark of someone who is filled with excessive and single-minded zeal. In other words, he has become a religious fanatic.
Heil Lokesh.
Is there no end to your grandiosity?
You’re comparing me calling you names on an obscure chat board, with Putin attacking Ukraine. Good God. You need help.
…..
Arpana, you need specs or something.
You say, “You’re comparing me calling you names on an obscure chat board, with Putin attacking Ukraine. Good God. You need help.”
That is a smokescreen and untrue.
What I said is, “Arpana declares in relation to his religious zeal for all things Osho, “In my view, standing up for something that matters is a good thing.”
In my view, that is most definitely not always a good thing. I just watched a news announcement, featuring the monster of the moment, Putin. He also appears to be standing up for something that matters. It is certainly not good, no matter how one looks at it.”
What does that have to do with calling me names? Zippy.
You think I need help? Perhaps it might be a good idea to get your own house in order first, before thinking about others needing help.
Of course, you won’t do that. Probably copy and paste an Osho quote instead, in the mistaken belief that you are some kind of a spiritual warrior, fighting the good fight with a nonexistent enemy. Delusional doesn’t quite sum it up.
I will now be taking a break from this for a while. I’ll leave you with this video of a real devotee of Osho, his secretary for India, Ma Yoga Neelam, who left her body last year, interviewed here by another long-time sannyasin, Ma Dharm Jyoti.
This is a 24 part series of interviews which will be of interest to many sannyasins.
Part one, Neelam describes meeting Osho for the first time in 1969:
https://youtu.be/nYrZHD90z4U
There is a lot there, and I haven’t watched it all yet.
In part 19, Neelam described friction between Osho’s new secretary Anando in 1987, and claims that Osho was deliberately giving them both different messages:
https://youtu.be/TBDoDkMxybo
Well, well, well…
Maybe I should have posted some of the lyrics with Gordon Lightfoot’s ‘Sit down young stranger’ song in which he describes a life’s journey with its ups and downs and insights. Where does one stand, after “all of these heres and theres”?
“And will you gather daydreams
Or will you gather wealth?
How can you find your fortune
When you cannot find yourself?
My mother’s eyes grow misty
There’s a tremblin’ in her hand
Sit down, young stranger
I do not understand.”
‘
The song was published in 1981.
Interesting times and mindscape parallels.
I took it for inspiration. And possibly the need for quite some more transpiration.
I enjoyed listening to one or two of the Neelam interviews. She has a lovely spirit, she emphasises her own learning and she paints a devoted image of Osho, whilst still retaining her own individuality.
What does it mean when you are contradictory? Adjective. opposite, contradictory, contrary, antithetical means being so far apart as to be or seem irreconcilable. opposite applies to things in sharp contrast or in conflict.
Osho delivers his reasons for being contradictory in a playful and highly intelligent manner in relation to getting out of the mind and into the heart. It makes perfect sense, or non-sense, depending on which way you look at it.
Klaus echoes Osho’s words, ‘“I try to contradict myself as often as I can. So that finally your mind closes shop. And the only reaction left is laughing out loud.” Mimicking such behaviour could create other reactions. Feeling confused. Feeling stupid etc, It is unavoidable that one has to contradict one’s self in life. There is absolutely no need to try and contradict yourself because you will be doing it whether you want to or not. Life is change and we change with it. What was true yesterday in our life might not be true tomorrow. We must adapt and move with the current of life and that involves a certain amount of contradictions in our life because we are life. It is unavoidable.
To believe contradicting yourself is something special, a spiritual practice transporting you out of the mind into the heart could leave you ripe for psychotherapy. Why? Because everyone is contradicting themselves. There is nothing spiritual about it. It requires no effort and in normal folk it definitely does not close their mind down. In fact, quite the contrary for many. It can often make people feel very mixed up and even more entangled in the mind.
Look at public enemy number one, Vladamir Putin. That power mad monster said for weeks that he would not use Russia’s armed forces to invade Ukraine. We are all very much aware what came out of that. Putin completely contradicted himself and ordered his army to invade a peaceful and civilized country and wreak havoc. You think that helped him move from the mind to the heart? Of course, it didn’t. The guy’s a fucking headcase, even though judged by the analysts to be rational.
We will all continue to contradict ourselves, no doubt about it. I doubt it will bring us out of our heads and in into our hearts en masse. I believe simply loving people will be a more effective way to do make that happen.
Actually, this was a Osho quote out of the video Arps posted.
Nonetheless your comment, Loke, I feel is on spot.
Osho quotes for Osho situations.
Being and being loving sounds great to me.
Thats what I keep trying.
Ping pong is endless.
Contradiction was part of cutting the string between the Master and the disciple.
Sannyasins did easily say “Bhagwan said this … ” and used it for their own ideas.
If the Master is contradictory, one time he says “trust the Master”, a few days later he says “doubt everybody, even me” then it’s difficult to do this.
At the end you can only follow yourself.
I don’t think it was really so much about “cutting the string” between the master and disciple as rather talking contradictions to ensure that it would be very difficult to create a dogma around his words. And, of course, to encourage sannyasins to think for themselves.
“If I am in your heart, there is no way to go away from me. You can go away from my physical presence, but my physical presence is no longer significant if you are already feeling my presence in your heart.
You have become aware of my spiritual presence. The physical presence is only a triggering point – if it can lead you to the spiritual presence, its work is done. Now I will be beating in your heart wherever you are, it does not matter whether you are here or on a faraway planet…
So remember: if you feel me in your heart, then I am coming with you. Wherever you go, I am coming with you – and without a ticket! Because they have not yet found a way to know whether a person is travelling with someone hiding in his heart.”
Osho: ‘Beyond Enlightenment # 21’
Those are factual statements and can only be verified by experience. Whether you agree with your master’s words or not.
Guru Questions
https://youtu.be/mvgy4H_BTeU
Ah, those are very difficult for me to listen to.
So much slur and allusions to local vernacular. Similar to the football one…holy cow.
Might need transcripts and footnotes.
P.S:
Same with Tom Holland actually – tried several times but didn’t get beyond the introduction…uhhhh.
@ Klaus
The guru questions videos I posted were at the time groundbreaking, the first-ever British Asian comedy show on television, and were hugely successful as they laughed at themselves, British Asians, as well as everyone else in the UK, but they were also very, very much of the time, and of the UK so I can imagine you might not get a lot of the references. Comedy doesn’t always travel.
Tom Holland has been of interest to me, in part because I have been drawn to broad sweep history books, which give me a sense of how humanity evolves; I’m rather a broad brush reader than a details reader.
Also, seems to me, Westerners of my generation who came to Osho had been brought up as “Christians”, and Osho actively encouraged us to behave in ways that would have been against our upbringing, which is to say encouraged us to be bad Christians in some ways. And I have wondered, certainly in the past, if a lot of the conflict that’s gone on among sannyasins, more specifically during the mala and red clothes, Bhagwan Shri Rajneesh time, was conflict between “good Christians” and “bad Christians”.
That is why I picked up on his basic premise very easily. Western culture is steeped in Christian values: the 10 commandments plus those other 6 or 7 Christian edicts.
I became aware because of meditation, which I have to say freaked me out at the time, a few years after finding out I was connected to Osho, that my values were based around the 10 Commandments-plus, and even now a primary moral injunction for me, although much more subtle these days, is “judge not lest you be judged” or “he among you who is innocent cast the first stone”, and if I fail to live up to those values I feel quite defensive still, although it strikes me asv not a bad value to attempt to live by.
@ Shanti
The quote above is a quote for devotees.
Not everyone is a devotee – seems you are?
It is again a kind of “The Master says”…
but not for everyone.
Devotion is an I – Thou relationship.
I belong to a different category.
@Satchit
Which category is that?
The `drinking Alzheimer Pils, watching telly and tossing off the occasional spiritual cliché` category?
You are funny, Sancho, a bit repetitive but still funny; what’s the name of your donkey?
@Satchit.
Such wit. This is a new facet of your personality. ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
Be aware. The hounds of hell, the dogs of war are about to be unleashed!
Dapple, of course.
A sturdy and reliable beast.
I don`t consider myself a devotee as some are, some who are utterly devoted to Osho. But I have experience that is enough for no doubts to exist. And I can see that when Osho talks about the master/disciple relationship, he is being spot on.
Is it also true that you then feel ‘the whole universe in your heart?
And anything and anyone can appear in and touch this heart?
Besides Bhagwan / Osho all kinds of people coming and going in this heart?
Plus sometimes no person. No image. No sensation.
It requires an open heart to feel this kind of connection, from a Master, I guess. I am a heart-type. Yet I also have a head.
Meditation and football…
https://youtu.be/iF2yaA9wdN8
@Arpana
Do not overlook this one:
‘Philosophy Football’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfduUFF_i1A
Nietzsche caught a yellow card, because he told Czonfuzius that he didn’t have a will of his own.
There you go.
@Klaus.
‘Philosophy Football’
Doesn’t date Great stuff.
Ah, got it:
Great stuff never gets outdated.
Cool.
@ SD.
You are such a schoolteacher.
Upholding the traditions of the school.
Here’s my take on your behaviour:
You see Lokesh as higher status than you so you don’t criticise him.
You see me as lower status than you, so you think I shouldn’t criticise him either, which is also why you talk down to me.
https://youtu.be/nUcm_hokUIc
Arpana, at times you’re too easily carried away by your imagination.
SD, That remark is from the schoolmaster’s playbook,
But is it true, Arpana?
I doubt whether you’d ever admit as much and you yourself are rather too fond of well-worn cliches that so easily prevent you from looking at what’s being suggested. Like politicians, many opinionated radio phone-in callers, football fans, anyone with a fixed position and who easily feels threatened.
Which isn’t to say you never have anything of value to say; in fact I respect what you’ve gone through to reach where you are.
https://youtu.be/PJ2EzTkLsp0
Heil Lokesh.
That is the second time you have compared me calling you names at an obscure chat board to Putin launching an invasion of Ukraine. Get some help!!!
It`s absolutely wrong to compare Arpana to Putin.
In his mind, at least, he is more like Zelinsky.
Heavily outnumbered, battling the forces of evil who seek to destroy Osho`s vision, armed only with hand-held Osho quote-throwers and ground-to-air cod-psychology missiles and psychobabble drones.
He has already survived numerous character-assassination attempts and heroically proclaims that he will never surrender or be moved off the fatherland of SN by the threats of Lokesh Putin McBoot-in and his evil cronies.
Thanks, Frank (11 March, 2022 at 11:44 am).
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
I’m sure you think it’s all fun and games, as long as you don’t take it seriously. But it is one of the things that nearly made me reconsider joining in, because it doesn’t speak of a lot of respect or kindness for others. It is verbal daggers under a veil of fun, and I don’t see what Arpana has done to deserve these comments.
Nityaprem,
He loves it.
Women enjoying being raped may be a bit far-fetched, but people enjoying having the piss taken out of them isn`t.
Yes, Nitya, absolutely correct. PC Arpana Zelinsky is as innocent as a babe in the woods, and is trusting in Osho’s intentions 108%. He does not deserve such slanderous comments, cast at him by the iniquitous evildoers on SN.
Worry not. Reports are coming in that the great spiritual warrior is unaffected by these slurs on his good name and is pounding the SN beat as usual with his truncheon in hand and singing a merry tune that goes like this…
“Flag high, ranks closed,
The S.N. army marches with silent solid steps.
Comrades enlightened by the orange sangha and meditation
March in spirit with us in our ranks.
The street free for the orange battalions,
The street free for the Catholic Sannyasins.
Millions, full of hope, look up at the empty sky;
The day breaks for freedom and for satori.
For the last time the whistle will now be blown;
For the struggle now we all stand ready.
Soon will fly Osho-flags over every street;
Maya will last only a short time longer.
Flag high, ranks closed,
The S.N. legion marches with silent solid steps.
Comrades enlightened by knowing Osho’s intentions
March in spirit with us in our ranks, truncheons in hand.”
I’m sure I have heard this song but can’t remember from where. Any clues?
Heil Lokesh.
I bask in the warm glow of your indifference.
Fighting Cock
CHI HSING TZU WAS A TRAINER OF FIGHTING COCKS FOR KING HSUAN. HE WAS TRAINING A FINE BIRD. THE KING KEPT ASKING IF THE BIRD WERE READY FOR COMBAT.
‘NOT YET’, SAID THE TRAINER. ‘HE IS FULL OF FIRE. HE IS READY TO PICK A FIGHT WITH EVERY OTHER BIRD. HE IS VAIN AND CONFIDENT OF HIS OWN STRENGTH’.
AFTER TEN DAYS HE ANSWERED AGAIN: ‘NOT YET. HE FLARES UP WHEN HE HEARS ANOTHER BIRD CROW’.
AFTER TEN MORE DAYS: ‘NOT YET. HE STILL GETS THAT ANGRY LOOK AND RUFFLES HIS FEATHERS’.
AGAIN TEN DAYS. THE TRAINER SAID: ‘NOW HE IS NEARLY READY. WHEN ANOTHER BIRD CROWS, HIS EYE DOES NOT EVEN FLICKER. HE STANDS IMMOBILE LIKE A COCK OF WOOD.
HE IS A MATURE FIGHTER. OTHER BIRDS WILL TAKE ONE LOOK AT HIM AND RUN’.
From Osho: ‘When The Shoe Fits’
MOD. maybe Satchit could be persuaded to broker a ceasefire with his “cock of wood”.
Or is it time for the new article?
MOD:
Probably the latter, Frank, yes.
Satchit Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.
Old Sufi proverb:
“The dogs bark but the caravan moves on.”
Ancient haiku…
Mouse whispers
Nobody hears.
Another ancient haiku…
The police whistle blows
Nobody cares.
Not bad.
Here`s one I saw scrawled on the toilet wall in the Osho Steak House in Kyoto:
“To escape the thought police
you must slip into
a state of no-mind.”
Another one that was written on an ancient banana leaf in the Theosophical headquarters, Adyar:
“Haiku in praise of Astrology.
It is extremely useful
to know exactly
where Uranus is.”
Good, Frankie, that you help Loco.
He seems to be very confused, seeing already some mice running around.
Reminds me of one of Osho’s favourite Zen stories…The Mouse is Out.
I came across this blog entry on the Astrotabletalk blog of Barry Goddard dated 11th March, 2022 in the last days which I find quite suitable to this thread, especially the picture and quote of C.G. Jung attached:
https://astrotabletalk.blogspot.com/2022/03/saturn-pluto-vaccine-and-projection-of.html
Quote:
“It often seems to me that many people’s political attitudes, or attitudes to the vaccine, are based on the assumption that those in power mean us harm. I think this is by and large a projection of our own unacknowledged malevolence.”
There was a break between this blog entry and the previous one dated 10th January, 2022. Similar to the break going on at SannyasNews….
Keep up the inspiration. Cheers.
In relation to the above quote, I agree. In other words, it means the world is a reflection, as the sages have been saying down through the centuries.
Lokesh,
Is this an admission all the negativity you see in Sannyas and Osho is a reflection of you, or are you, as usual, exempting yourself from ”the world is a reflection, as the sages have been saying down through the centuries.”?
There was/is good and bad in Sannyas.
That’s as far as I can see it.
So, there is good and bad in me, too.
Any events to this or that side then seem to be a reflection of our inner dispositions at the time.
And all the encounters now.
Fitting to the — fiasco —
Clarke & Dawe: The Oil Spill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClvLp4vXJ5I
“First things first:
Underestimate the problem
2nd:
Acknowledge the magnitude of the problem.
But it is/was certainly not our fault.
Thirdly:
We dropped a shopping centre down…now we know that doesn’t work…
Fourth solution:
Offer our help with the clean-up…
Fifth:
…..
In the meantime:
We will go with the democratic solution which is nice: blame the President!
But, but he didn’t do it!
He didn’t prevent it, did he?”
We didn’t prevent it. Did we?
However, there is no necessity to cling to anything in this regard. Or other regards, too.
Words of wisdom?
Klaus.
When you say good and bad in Sannyas, that sounds very much like the Christian binary of right and wrong, and given Osho actively encouraged us to behave in ways Christians have deemed reprehensible, that seems to me to throw what constitutes good and bad in the context of what goes on between us, within the context of Sannyas, seriously up in the air.
On a more personal note, behaviour or qualities I would have once viewed as wrong, or bad, I regularly perceive these days as a useful attribute at times (I had a very conservative Christian upbringing). I have been called a weakling because I have never gone around knocking others about, and a villain because I have wanted to on occasions.
Here in the crazy world of Sannyas News critiquing Osho is considered a sign of higher-level cognition, whereas critiquing Lokesh, and being into Osho, if not actually called evil, is certainly perceived as a sign of mental disorder, being generally fucked, a catholic sannyasin, one of the ‘sheeple’.
You may have started a discussion about what constitutes good and bad in the context of Osho Sannyas, and more specifically, Sannyas News.
“Here in the crazy world of Sannyas News critiquing Osho is considered a sign of higher-level cognition, whereas critiquing Lokesh, and being into Osho, if not actually called evil, is certainly perceived as a sign of mental disorder, being generally fucked, a catholic sannyasin, one of the ‘sheeple’.”
Arpana, I suggest these perceptions are significantly exaggerated and say far more about your personal fears and antipathy towards one individual than about the actual attitudes of SN contributors. Furthermore, by continually referring to how offended you are you yourself are fanning the flames of ‘communal strife’ and, in a sense, doing similarly to what you accuse another of perpetrating.
That you can’t just let go, laugh and walk away speaks volumes.
But it makes for a good study of conflict, its origins and growth from differing personal approaches and perspectives, through mutual disrespect into ongoing hatred and chronic enmity. No different, in many ways, than the age-old political and religious rivalries we, as such ‘spiritual’ people view with a matching superior distaste.
“Oh, but it’s obvious I’m right and he/they are so very, very wrong! So he/they deserve whatever they get, including (and especially) my hatred and my violence!”
Yes, that’s what they all said and continue to say…as the body count rises…and the verbal (and non-verbal) missiles are kept fine-tuned for action….
”“Oh, but it’s obvious I’m right and he/they are so very, very wrong! So he/they deserve whatever they get, including (and especially) my hatred and my violence!””
And that’s what you’re doing as well, and more particularly that is a description of Lokesh, but you are not going to do anything about getting him to behave differently.
So do you accept the first statement (the ‘quote’) is true of you?
I can tell you that it’s not true of me (not that I expect you to believe me) although I do find you thoroughly exasperating in this context.
SD,
This is black and white thinking.
You believe I am absolutely wrong and he and you are absolutely right and above criticism.
I don’t agree with you.
By the way, I don’t have issues with Buddhist friends because they meditate and have done for years, and they are respectful of Osho, as I am about what matters to them, as I am respectful of anyone who works on themselves, meditates; knowing as I do from experience, rather than something I’ve heard from someone else or read about in a book, what an uphill and arduous journey that can be at times.
Arps, please re-read what I wrote at 8.08pm tonight. (I’m soon about to sign off from writing for tonight, I’ve other things to do, although posts will be put up as usual).
I am reminded of something Granny MacGroovy used to say to me when I was a wee laddie in Auchtermuchty: “One who is too insistent on his own views finds few to agree with him.”
Yes Indeed. That is true, Lokesh!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auchtermuchty
Is that where you’ve grown up, indeed?
Love me Scotland…although the weather…uuhhhh…I guess I would have my twosome frozen there.
Arpana,
I hope that you find the video of C & D at least a little bit funny, if not hilarious!
I can see in my mind so many parallel scenes to what happened at mmmmmhhhh!
This ‘BP’ guy almost breaks out in laughter himself at his own arguments…one can see it in the sparkle of his eyes and small movements around his mouth.
Good/bad to me is not about fixed rules, but rather about sensitivity, one’s own insights and having learned about oneself: is it leading me downwards or what? Am I aware enough not to go down the same old tunnel?
Something in this way: one has to find out for oneself what is wholesome or unwholesome (in Buddhist speak). Can be different for different people.
PS:
The hammering I enjoyed here over the years cut away quite some naivety and intellectual speak on my side. ‘Hammer on the Rock’ was the first Bhagwan book I read near lake Phokara in 1980 – and it was like “Yes, yes, yes”.
We just keep going. Cheers.
PPS:
I take the challenges as hints to the pitfalls and traps seekers encounter on their respective path(s) – or even any path. There certainly are a few, not least attachment to rules & regulations, persons, habits and so on. The direct way to learn is through experience. Why not learn / understand directly from what someone else already knows? There will always be people who know more/better: I can appreciate somebody else’s proficiency – it can be pure Wowww! Sometimes! My brother is a rock & blues guitarist and a video artist 5 years younger than me! What a courageous guy – standing in front of an audience being creative intuitively for 2-3 hours!
You remember your comment after I spelled out my dream induced by the Shantam ping-pong? On the spot, sympathetic, clear, no nonsense, helpful, supportive, sharing: appreciate, appreciate.
Now it’s become a rather long comment!
@Klaus
I have read “Hammer on the Rock’ so many times. If I had to choose one of Osho’s books to take to a desert island it would be that.
Interesting comment about learning from others.
I went to art school. A lot of art students were frightened to look at the work of famous artists because they felt that would in some way detract from what they had, and I always happily embraced and took an interest in the work of famous artists. And I remember a tutor saying to me, words to the effect, “You have realised you don’t have to reinvent the wheel to be an artist. You can look to what’s gone before.”
Art comes from art. We are always connected to what’s gone before. Always.
@ Klaus.
The video is wickedly funny by the way!!!
There certainly is good and bad in Sannyas. It’s a beautiful thing to focus on a spiritual path together with others, but it also takes you away from the life you might have lived.
It is useful to reflect from this position, a number of years down the line, what difference it really made in your life? Once you were back in the West, did your life revert back to the old patterns, or was there a real concrete change?
Osho set out to shake people up, with the mala and wearing red, and the dynamic meditation and the groups. But what I see is people who are more free, more loving, but don’t necessarily have less bad habits.
MOD:
Nityaprem, by “less bad habits” do you mean fewer or ‘better quality’ bad habits (or both)?
Not having bad habits is difficult for Buddhists too.
If you google Ajahn Chah, you find that a common praise is that his org has never been implicated in any sex/abuse/corruption scandals.
That this is presented as a `plus` and a recommendation shows exactly how common it has been/is in Buddhist circles.