Excerpts from Ageh Bharti’s recollections about the meditation camp held by Osho from December 9 – 12, 1969 at Junagarh, Gujarat.
Osho left Jabalpur for Bombay on December 7, 1969 and flew to Junagarh on December 9. Ageh Bharti arrived a day earlier and had brought with him a bundle of the newly published Hindi book ‘Satya ki Khoj’ for Jaya as per Osho’s instructions. This book contained Osho’s discourses delivered at Junagarh itself and had been published by Jaya and her husband, Dr. Hemant Shukla.
Satya ki Khoj inner cover (left) and dedication by Osho (right)
Osho stayed at the State Government House and I met him there. He inquired about my journey and well-being. He also suggested coming to the Circuit House if it was inconvenient for me to stay at my accommodation. I replied to him in the positive.
The next day, he asked again, “Are you comfortable there?”
I replied, “Yes.”
He asked further, “Didn’t mosquitoes bite you in the night?”
Now there was no way to hide. So I told him, “I could not sleep almost the whole night because of mosquitoes, and I am feeling a little feverish too.”
Osho got worried and said, “This is not right. Better you come here to the Circuit House.”
“Acharyaji, two or three people have become friends, if I come here, they will be disheartened. So, it will be better if I stay there,” I said.
Hearing this, he suggested for me to sleep on the terrace where the mosquitoes wouldn’t disturb me and at the same time Dr. Shukla rushed to get some medicine for my fever. I have observed Osho taking a lot of care of his lovers.
City Gate Junagarh (also called Junagadh)
During the camp, Osho delivered an hour long discourse in the morning as well as in the evening, followed by 15 minutes of meditation. In the afternoon, he used to meet devotees between 2 and 3 pm. Afterwards, a one-hour long sitting in his presence followed. Listening to him was a great meditation. Moreover, sitting in his presence, one used to go into a meditative trance. He devised wonderful techniques that are extremely helpful; one comes to know what silence during practical life is.
Osho’s meditation camp was a different world altogether. Even just being there was being in a different world where caste, creed, religion did not exist, where only a very loving meditative atmosphere prevailed. It felt as being in the garden of God himself.
On December 11, many friends went to the Circuit House to congratulate Osho on his birthday. Some carried magnificent gifts with them.
In the evening, when I met Osho, I asked, “When people congratulate you on your birthday, I am not able to understand. Do you really have any birthday? Because I never have the feeling you had any birth.”
Osho replied smiling, “See how people spread rumours.”
On the evening of December 12, Osho’s last discourse was of a very high pitch, it flowed like a river. Somebody outside cracked explosives and some of his lovers became alert and went to look around.
In the middle of the speech Osho said, “Don’t bother. Children often explode crackers and some mature people also remain childish. Whosoever has exploded the crackers, hasn’t done it with awareness; otherwise it would not have been possible for him.”
And he continued the discourse. What a coincidence! At this moment he spoke about life with awareness. When he got up after discourse and moved towards his car, hundreds of students chased after him. I was exactly behind Osho with Praveen Bhai and others. The group of students jostled with one another and we found it very difficult to keep them at bay.
I felt quite depressed. I never cared for the state government, power, or for conventional old people, but finding the young people failing to understand Osho, made me feel sad. I also realized that nobody could guard Osho. And he was absolutely alone because as we followed him towards the car on the right side, the group of students walked hurriedly on the left to stand on either side of the narrow path through which the car rolled out. The crowd was massive and the path was so narrow that we found it difficult to walk close to the car.
We had to leave Osho to himself but I had some solace that Jaya was in the car with Osho. The car crawled along the path, we saw it from a distance. Osho greeted one and all on either side with folded hands and a smile. Dr. Hemant told me, “R.S.S. (1) has a great influence in this area and it is they who do such stupid things.” After finally passing through the narrow lane (about 150 metres), the car resumed normal speed and Osho was driven to the Circuit House.
On the way I thought, “Osho’s life is far more important than any leader’s on earth today. How unsafe he was! What was the arrangement for his safety? There are enormous arrangements for leaders. Many vehicles pilot their cars, other vehicles follow them. And being a political leader is not as rare as it is to be a great Enlightened Master like Osho. The earth had to wait for thousands of years. They do not pay any attention to him today, but tomorrow they may have to shed tears?
I reached the Circuit House, entered Osho’s room and pulled the curtain aside. Laxmi and Jaya were already there. I burst out, “Acharyaji, for a few months in the recent past I have been using an adjective for you, i. e. a ‘dangerous’ man. And I feel that one day all that is going to happen with you. So, the first thing I want to know is: Do you know about all that?”
“Yes, I know,” said Osho.
I replied, “Being in love with you, we are in great difficulty. Please give us the energy so as to bear with it.”
Osho answered with tremendous love, “You will get energy.”
I asked, “Acharyaji, is such a world possible where good people can live?”
Osho replied, “Certainly, such a world is possible. However, we have to make efforts to create such a world. Certainly, it is possible. And the world today is better than what it was in the past; otherwise Jesus was very mild, Socrates was very generous, but they were killed. The way I speak, they never spoke. They were very generous. Had it been the world of two thousand years before, I should have been killed on the very first day. Humanity is better today. When Jesus was being crucified, about one thousand people had gathered there but it was difficult to find even eight sympathisers. In spite of the way I speak, many people love me. So humanity is better today. And certainly, we have to bring about a day when good people can live.
“They try to disturb my meetings, they oppose, but there is nothing to worry about. In 1916, when the Banaras University foundation was being laid, Gandhi was there. Gandhi was not well-known until that time. After great recommendations he was permitted to speak only for five minutes. But when he spoke, people got utterly displeased. Even Annie Besant and Pt. Madan Mohan Malviya (2) objected to Gandhi’s speech because he was speaking against the prevalent norms. Lastly, people started to shout and Gandhi could not speak even for five minutes. But within three years, they started to follow Gandhi and in three years, Gandhi became very popular. So there is nothing to worry. Opposition is also necessary.”
Listening to his comments, I thought, “You are really great. One may meet you from any angle, may ask anything from any angle; you never let one feel disheartened. You never see disappointment in anything. Fear and doubt do not belong to you.”
Meanwhile, Dr. Hemant entered the room. He besought Osho to cancel the next day’s meeting.
Jaya said, “The meeting will not be cancelled.”
I also repeated, “The meeting shall not be cancelled.”
But Dr. Hemant repeated his request again and Osho said smilingly, “Well, tomorrow’s issue will be seen tomorrow. Today it is time to sleep.”
And Osho slipped inside the mosquito net.
(1) Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh is a right-wing volunteer, Hindu nationalist, non-governmental organisation.
(2) Indian freedom fighter, politician, and also an eminent educationist.
Excerpts from Ageh Bharti’s book Blessed Days with Osho
Not a single western around when Moon was in full glory, or glory came when moon rose in the west!
It’s mostly been delightful to go through his sharing & also meeting him in person. The last time we met was on 24th July, 2013 at our residence, he had got along this book ‘Blessed Days With Osho’ & a Hindi book which was for sale. I read the English one, as reading Hindi is an effort for me, my mother read the Hindi one. After reading we passed it on to a sannyasin who was interested.
When not a single disciple is alive who has seen the master, then is the fertile time to read books, imagine the scene, feel overwhelmed and write poetry over it or philosophy.
Humanity has a long tradition to indulge in such kind of devotion to all-time great of one´s choice.
In my not so humble opinion, transmission of the lamp means now and the future instead of now in the past.
Is it not amazing, all the book writers about Osho share only their memories and not a single idea about Osho´s vast vision on every single aspect of life including, love, sex, money, power, politics, religion?
Interesting, Shantam, that the list of topics are all areas in which you appear to be personally lacking and/or in which you would like to be influential but are not.
I don’t see that you are particularly qualified to pronounce on any “transmission of the lamp” when your own life is so glaringly deficient that your proposals (basically, to resurrect the Pune past) are basically self-serving claptrap.
“Is it not amazing, all the book writers about Osho share only their memories and not a single idea about Osho´s vast vision on every single aspect of life including, love, sex, money, power, politics, religion?”
What about those memories which Osho needed to be shared through these writers? Yes, for sure, that aspect (“vast vision”) you are talking about probably needs to be explored on one’s own.
Wonder why everything should be served on a platter when now there are many possibilities which are in existence thanks to Osho’s effort, even though now they are probably diluted existentially. Isn’t that asking for too much?
That Osho´s efforts are diluted existentially or by the extreme cowardliness and cunning mind of closest disciples in leadership position is a matter of discussion.
Surely every untimely death, including murder after rape, cannot happen without existential plan, if we believe not a single leaf moves without THY WILL.
“That Osho´s efforts are diluted existentially or by the extreme cowardliness and cunning mind of closest disciples in leadership position is a matter of discussion.”
Yes, why not? My word is not the last word!
“Surely every untimely death, including murder after rape, cannot happen without existential plan, if we believe not a single leaf moves without THY WILL.”
I wonder if Existence has any plans in the first place – and this is the last word!
What the article brings up for me is the changes that influenced what Osho was to become. Ageh Bharti presents a picture strongly influenced by his Hindu roots. I met Osho for the first time five years after the events described and can relate to them to a certain extent, because back then Osho fulfilled the role expected of an Indian guru, even taking into account the controversial nature of his preaching and teaching.
During that time, being initiated into Sannyas at Osho’s feet still held a certain intimacy, an intimacy that would eventually be watered down and lost due to the amount of people showing up at his front door.
The question arises, what changed Osho? He turned into something at times quite the reverse of the man described in the article. For instance, back then Osho had no difficulty dealing with the close physical proximity of large amounts of people. Ten years later, it was as if he had become allergic to people etc. My guess is that Osho became physically ill to the extent that it affected his lifestyle and behaviour tremendously.
I read recently that Osho took a lot of Valium, 80mg a day, to be precise. A typical adult dose of Valium to treat anxiety may range from 2 to 10 mg, two to four times a day. Osho must have been in need of some kind of relief to take so much Valium over an extended period of time, and he probably suffered some of the side-effects produced by this drug, which include extreme weakness or drowsiness, hallucinations and delusional behaviour.
Valium could not be described as a consciousness expander, quite the opposite, in fact. Yet Osho used Valium over an extended period of time and no matter how enlightened you believe him to be he must have suffered from some side- effects. He must also have been in some kind of pain, physical or psychological. Or else why use such a powerful drug?
It is all very well reading glowing accounts about how Osho once was, describing him as a great enlightened master that the world had been waiting on for thousands of years etc., but that is a pretty one-sided take on things. Osho, as it was later to emerge, had a darker side that was kept well concealed behind closed doors.
It is stupid to deny this or see it as some sort of slur on Osho’s character. Surely it is wiser to try and have a more complete picture of Osho the man and learn what you can from a more comprehensive and complete vision, instead of a lopsided portrait of Osho painted in glowing colours.
Osho was, let us not forget, a human being. For me, this is one of the greatest things to understand about Osho, because he was human, with all the beauty, mystery, love, nonsense and fuck-ups that being human entails. To miss that is to miss the whole point of his incredible, strange, mysterious, contradictory and unique life, wherein he influenced many people to the extent that it changed the course of their lives for ever, for the majority in an extremely positive way.
I clearly recall you mouthing off at me in my early days here when I suggested the beauty of Osho’s Sannyas was that it is about ‘either and or’, contained and said yes to that which had previously been labelled good and bad, whilst obviously not saying yes to the worst of human behaviour.
Osho actively encouraged us to go into and say yes to behaviour we had been conditioned to say no to all our individual and collective lives. No wonder hell broke lose. (Yet for all that I personally think it wrong to dismiss what happened in Oregon as 100% bad).
P.S:
I am convinced you are rationalising the fact you dropped Sannyas, and that underlies most of your pronouncements of this nature. I’d probably have a much more positive response to your remarks if they weren’t rationalisations.
You’re not above Osho and Sannyas, Lokesh. If you bang away at anything, as you do you Sannyas and Osho at Sannyas News, you are as attached as the rest of us.
Unless you have read this information somewhere else, it was 60mg per day, not 80mg, and it was Sheela that had stated that Osho was taking this amount of the drug, in a press interview after she left Rajneeshpuram.
How reliable the story is is unclear. Sheela herself was said to be using large amounts of uppers and downers at the time.
Valium is a muscle relaxant so his doctor may have prescribed it to help him sleep when he had a lot of back pain. Then, perhaps he got a taste for it.
But I read somewhere that Osho had already discovered a “small yellow pill” – some type of sleeping tablet – back in the sixties, which he found useful for his migraines.
SS, were you to ingest 60mg of Diazepam we would hear nothing from you during the next 24 hours, because you would be out for the count.
I recently read some papers just released in Oregon by the local authorities and I think the 80mg was mentioned there, although can’t say for sure. Besides, I have heard from various sources that Osho swallowed a lot of Diazepam over a protracted period of time, which certainly could not have done him much good in the long term, Diazepam being heap mighty powerful medicine, even for a chief.
My point is that Osho suffered a lot of ill health and as a result used strong prescription drugs and that influenced to some extent what he was to become.
You can buy this stuff online at oshopharma.com
They don`t have any trademark problems.
Frank boy, you are very naughty! You deserve a flicking in the ears.
Do you believe what that incompetent Sheela said?
Do you believe, as well, that the nursing home she runs (I believe that there are competent people running it for her) was bought with money earned with her work as looking after pets for people, like she announced?
Tan,
The ailment that Osho was moved from India to the States for was a chronic slipped disc. The standard treatment for that is valium to stop muscle spasm and get pain relief.
If you watch Osho videos when he started talking again, you see an unbelievable deterioration in a very short time. His facial expressions are very slowed down, his mouth slowed to almost slurring, his razor-sharp eyebrow movements kind of blurred.
That`s downers all over. Valium (Diazepam) fucks you fast.
His doctor, like the vast majority of doctors at that time (and even now) were unaware/in denial about the addictiveness of these types of drugs. You can develop physical dependence in a matter of months.
Couple that with his own eulogising of the effects of sleeping pills obtained off-licence from a doctor friend of his, which he (bizarrely) claimed “balanced the two sides of his brain” and cured his severe headaches when he was younger, then you start to get a picture of a man with quite a penchant for these kind of drugs.
Of course, you can say it is all conjecture on my part. I don`t mind. It’s all gone now. More important is to learn the lesson.
Just say no to pharmaceuticals and the twats that foist them on you. Die clean.
I am going to.
It’s all in the eye of the beholder.
If you heard that Osho was taking drugs, dropping qaaludes and jumping around in his living-room like a monkey, and also sometimes asking Sheela to get her tits out and having a fondle, then you would probably see a junkie when you watched the Ranch vids.
But if you look at some of the video recordings of him in lecture around 1980/81 – actually he looks and sounds exactly the same. The only difference is he isn’t wearing those hats and he displays a bald dome and white robe.
What I said has nothing whatsoever to do with Sheela`s tits.
Frank boy, maybe you are right about the drugs.
I did a bit of a research and it was confirmed that Osho’s body and mind had a different reaction to drugs and medicines. Which is easy to believe due to the energy we could feel around him.
I agree with SS, he looked the same, if you look at the videos or listen to the talking. XX
There are a couple of pictures I`ve seen from the Ranch, I think it was on one of the annual World celebration days, where Osho looks a bit wasted.
But this is only two appearances out of thousands. Perhaps he had a particularly bad back that day.
Tan, you say:
“I did a bit of a research and it was confirmed that Osho’s body and mind had a different reaction to drugs and medicines.”
Where did you get this info from?
Yes. From an old book, called ‘The Golden Guru’, by James Gordon, and the newest one: @The Buddha in the Dental Chair’, by Devageet. Cheers!
It`s a great book, that one.
I like the story where Devageet recalls how he was doing Osho`s teeth one day, and had the electric drill in Osho`s mouth, when Osho suddenly decided to shut his mouth tight whilst the drill was still going…
And the part where Osho moves his hands around into different mudras in response to whether Devageet’s mind was active or more peaceful…great stuff.
You’ve got such a lot to say about drugs, Lokesh, but I can not recall a post where you mentioned your experiences of meditation.
Hmm. I think we should be told!!!
I don’t know what the Oregonians think that happened around Osho. From memory, I remember that Sheela was interviewed and said that Osho was taking 60mg a day and using laughing gas to look happy (I could be wrong, she may have said 80mg).
She also said that Osho used to play with her breasts.
When Osho was asked about it by the media he said something like, “She is disgusting – this is sheer lies” (the breasts bit) and “She has seen my doctor give me valium once on the plane to America to help me sleep.”
I don’t think a bit of valium would have been such a bad idea for a guy like Osho anyway, remember he had trouble sleeping, and he used to feel the whole universe was inside him.
It might help him to stop colliding into those folks on Saturn and counting all those billions of stars….
Just 49 views are logged into this new video at youtube.
Yesterday evening I was watching this after scanning the latest article at sannyasnews.
1968 to 1985, just in 17 years time how dramatic became the life around Osho. This video is really something about man in the master:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLi5vlAYH2c
Humans have become accustomed to a world of buttons, switches and knobs. The electrical revolution has produced such wonders as light-bulbs and refridgerators.
Indians rarely complain about mosquitoes. Those ones in the story must have been particularly vicious. Nowadays, Indians from cities such as Mumbai like to leave the fan on the whole night, even when it is cool outside, because it discourages the mosquitoes.
But one wonders why they don’t use a mosquito net and why this guy, Ageh Bharti, did not have one in his room like Osho.
In the past in India, houses or huts were designed to be warm in the winter and cool and naturally air-conditioned in the summer. There was no fan or electric bulbs, and Indians did not stay up all night with the tv blasting at full volume.
Now, silicon valley has produced the microchip and this has led to everything being the click of a mouse away. Someone in India even designed the world’s first email service.
“But one wonders why they don’t use a mosquito net and why this guy, Ageh Bharti, did not have one in his room like Osho.”
SS, in India having a mosquito net was a luxury at that time. I have read & heard, when Osho had started travelling in India in the early 60s he mostly lived at a rich person’s home/a high-class dharamshala/religious or charitable lodge/a Government rest house or Circuit House, which were for high-ranking officials. Later, he stayed in luxurious hotels during his world tour days!
Yes, I gathered that Osho used to generally stay in style and luxury and would travel by first class on the train.
I once met an Indian guy who told me that Osho used to stay in the home of his wealthy aunt when in Mumbai in the early days.
I guess the mosquito nets would have been cotton-spun in those days. Nowadays there are more common and cheaper nylon nets. I kept meeting Indians who prefer to sleep with the windows shut and the fan on, even on a cool night at a hill station.
Lots of those coils too…I prefer the herbal ones which are non-toxic. Some people use those plug-in vapours. Perhaps people used to use stuff like Neem in the past.
Yes, nowadays in India, fine nylon/metal nets are fixed on all doors & windows of the house, so there is no need of an individual net for beds.
I prefer neem-based creams for outdoors.
Yes, although mosquitoes seem to prefer skin that is paler and do not seem to bother Indians so much.
The text says:
“Somebody outside cracked explosives and some of his lovers became alert and went to look around…Osho said: Don’t bother…Whosoever has exploded the crackers, hasn’t done with awareness; otherwise it would not have been possible for him.”
Now, that was nearly fifty years ago. If nowadays, maybe would be a suicide bomber, and many would be killed. So, how the world is becoming better? Maybe Osho mistakenly judged the “unenlightened forces”?
Well, if he could not see through Sheela then how to expect him to perceive such “unenlightened forces” accurately?
Anyway, why expect enlightenment to necessarily confer foolproof prescience?
“Anyway, why expect enlightenment to necessarily confer foolproof prescience?”(Satyadeva).
What a witty and necessary question, I feel, Satyadeva.
Sheds again some light on immature expectations to get our quests solved by an enlightened Presence ´outside´, like from a good father-figure.
However, there is no foreseeing ´plan´ for existence, more a trial and error thing, I guess, and Kavita stated something in that direction; more a meeting, sometimes merging, sharings of fragmented souls in a big happening – everlasting, and the Masters worth their salt, as Lokesh expressed it, (re)present, in their Presence, ´this Invitation´.
What I loved especially about the quote from Agey Bharty´s recollective memoirs of some almost fifty years ago, chosen in this topic, were his insights, sharing about fear and courage and trust too.
The challenge, when going against vested interests in society or politics in the name of religion.
The vulnerability, the dignity and the strengths of that Love to truth. So much less sticky (for me) as other testimonials and very contemporary stuff, isn´t it?
As courage is needed.
Madhu
Satyadeva, I wouldn’t trust an enlightened guy to know how would be the weather by tomorrow. I am talking about 50 years go, when this marvellous man came along and started to say totally the opposite what any religions all over were saying, like sex, it’s not sin, look inside, etc…
The impression, at the time, it was he had vision as an intellectual, as a philosophy professor! The enlightenment ‘thing’, he played afterwards.
Cheers!
Of course the firecrackers didn’t work properly, Tan, they were Indian!
There was a later attempt by another right-wing hindu fanatic who tried to kill Osho by throwing a knife at him in discourse, that didn’t work either.
It just sort of fell out of the air in mid-flight.
Come to think of it, there was another failed Indian assasin too – Sheela, whose many attempts at fatally poisoning people all went wrong.
A main work of disciples of any faith is to work in the defence team against any allegation against their greatest of the greatest. The emotional involvement gets so strong, followers would prefer to kill God instead of raising any finger of doubt towards their super-duper man.
This is how humanity creates religions, willingly or unwillingly. To create religion does not mean million-plus people need to be enrolled.
It feels like reading some comments, Sannyas is almost a religion post-demise of master, a No Brand religion.
Some here seem to question the ‘memoirs’ of various disciples, or the activity of writing a memoir itself.
Despite the sceptics, there are still people who come afresh to Osho and want to find out about him. Prem Paritosh’s book, ‘Life of Osho’, was conceived back in 1996 with that in mind and I have had many thanks for helping with that book over the years.
I also appreciate Ageh Bharti’s writing. I and even Lokesh were not around in 1969, and it is good to read and see how things were then. It does not subtract, as Shantam seems to say, from the present, it simply informs the present.
Lokesh is right to point out Osho’s health problems. He got diabetes from the age of 21, and I assume he took the medications for that. According to Osho himself, he was in bad physical health ever afterwards.
He did get around in India between 1962 and 1970, and clearly this must have been taxing, but as Kavita points out, Osho stayed almost invariably in very rich places, and I see in this text from Ageh that he took a plane to get to Junagarth.
One meaning of Junagarth, incidentally, is the place where the Greeks lived…
Some ancient Greeks came to India at different times and to different places, and settled.
I suspect genetically Osho had some ancient Greek blood; his grandmother was thought to have Greek ancestry and known for her psychological Greek questioning! Like her grandson!
P,
I’ve written about 5OO pages on my main visit to Poona. For myself; and it’s a bit like looking at a painting. I see things that passed me by at the time. Get a new sense of perspective. My perspective moves.
Might do it again sometime.
In fact, I’ve also written, again for myself and at length, about other phases of my Sannyas life, particularly the mala and red clothes, time after Poona, and during Oregon.
Why not share some of your recollections and insights in a full article, Arpana?
Rev. Simond,
Given you have gone beyond Sannyas and are above those of us who haven’t, you have information enough here available at Sannyas News to psychoanalyze me; explain away to your satisfaction my unwillingness to become one of your acolytes; and here’s a bit more:
I have not gone beyond Sannyas, or fellow-travellers who have the courage to pursue difficult and different paths, or my fellow sannyasins, as apposed to those who have managed to get themselves a Sannyas name, and think that’s it; and I would not exchange my life for anyone else’s.
Anyway, I didn’t know any special sannyasins. I didn’t drop Sannyas at the end of the seventies, thereby acquiring an all-seeing, all-knowing, scientifically objective view of everything Sannyas, nor do I believe only my life experience is of any value.
I have just come to know myself a whole lot better, because of Osho and myself; come to understand I am neither superior, nor inferior to anyone else; so what possible interest could my musings be to you? What could you possibly learn from my musings about my history?
Arpana,
It was only a thought…After all, you indicated how your perspectives had altered and your history or ‘musings’ are surely worth as much as any others who tell their own stories of Sannyas and experience of Osho.
You are sometimes quick to offer your musings and criticism of others who have bravely put their own views forward…But rarely offer your own proactively.
Why not offer yourself forward with an article of your own? What have you learned and gained?
It might be a real learning experience to see that what you write is of real value to others on the site, especially when, as you write, you take care to truly explain and explore – rather than just lecture, or decry the views of those who may see life differently.
It’s a risk of course…
Who knows how others might respond? But we are in the risk business, aren’t we?
“What have you learned and gained?”
You haven’t actually read my reply then.
Just a question, Arpana:
Are you kind of administrating the chat-data of this UK SN Chat? Is it allowed to ask where you are living?
Madhu
“Are you kind of administrating the chat-data of this UK SN Chat?”
I’m not part of the Sannyas News collective.
“Is it allowed to ask where you are living?”
In the UK, Midlands.
Oooh! You`re so vicious!
Watch out tho` – we`ve already established that Simond was once the guv`nor of the much feared West Dorset Satsang Droogies, who famously led his firm into battle against the Andrew Cohen Headhunters in a no-holds-barred ruck for spiritual authority over Totnes Village Hall.
And rumour has it, he`s looking for a few sannyas heads of hoo-hoo-hooligans to add to the collection on his wall.
Don`t say you haven`t been warned.
Whilst, if you remember, Frank, you were bearded and hairy and dancing to new age lullabies, whilst trying to stop thinking in Vipassana and desperately trying to get laid!
Touché.
I can`t remember any of that.
No need to be defensive tho – giving Andrew Con and his followers a good boot up the bass chakra sounds like right livelihood in my book.
Respect!
Madhu, many a true word is said in jest. I am simply enjoying SN. I find it fascinating how we get to know each other here on SN. I find something of interest in the reflection from most of the commentators. If I catch myself getting in any way serious about writing a comment, I immediately delete it.
In a way, SN is a microcosm of life.
I have to go now as I am preparing for my annual trip up into the highlands of bonnie Scotland. Take care.
Simond, you missed an opportunity.
When Arps asks the following of you, “What could you possibly learn from my musings about my history?”, which is a snub, you could have then asked him, why did you write the following on the same thread, “You’ve got such a lot to say about drugs, Lokesh, but I can not recall a post where you mentioned your experiences of meditation. Hmm. I think we should be told!!!”, wherein he is asking basically of me what he snubbed you for.
Not only that, he speaks of ‘we’. Meaning that he has nominated himself as a spokesperson for others on SN, when in fact nobody else on this site is addressing such questions to me. A bit presumptuous, I am sure you will agree.
Simond, I suspect you would not bring these points up because it is all a bit petty. If so, well done.
I tend not to bother much in general with Arps’s comments, because they are often negative at heart, meaning to me that in spite of his claims pertaining to how much Osho has done for him the only time he seems to be happy to me is when making snide and caustic comments about other commenters here on SN, especially myself, whom he is a trifle obsessed with.
Ah well, such is life, and we all have our problems. In this case, Arps not treating others how he would like to be treated himself. What a better world it would be if we could all live by that maxim. That is, unless one happens to be a masochist.
“In this case, Arps not treating others how he would like to be treated himself.”
You routinely address posters here as if they were dirt, Lokesh, and you’ve been doing so since I started to post here.
Talk about dish it out and can’t take it.
If I wasn’t sure what you were before, I am now.
Thanks for the Alan Watts quote, Lokesh.
But can you give a hint also what´s going on here the last hours in your words?
And why pretty much any interesting thread like this one ends up in bitchy fights? Worse than some washerwomen meeting to spin one intrigue or the other against some who are not present! (Like that Andrew Cohen stuff in UK, I don´t know anything about, fortunately, I guess).
En-lighten me about that, will you?
Madhu
P.S:
Seems to be quite some old stuff on board, is it?
Madhu, you ask:
“But can you give a hint also what´s going on here the last hours in your words?”
It`s called hooliganism.
It`s a British thing.
Altho` like all British inventions, others are now much better at it than the Brits themselves.
It`s not rocket surgery:
If you stick
A Scottish Skinhead
A Bitter Brummie
And Totnes’s very own romper stomper together in a confined (head) space, you are going to get, to use the technical term: a spot of bovver.
Btw,
Where`s the Alan Watts quote?
“The more we try to live in the world of words, the more we feel isolated and alone, the more all the joy and liveliness of things is exchanged for mere certainty and security. On the other hand, the more we are forced to admit that we actually live in the real world, the more we feel ignorant, uncertain, and insecure about everything.”
Alan W. Watts, ‘The Wisdom of Insecurity: A Message for an Age of Anxiety’
Parmartha, I have no objection if you or we remain hooked with Osho´s life stories. But then there is no need to pretend it is not a religious act.
Is there some demarcation line that stories of people who died 500 years before are religious and stories of recently died ones are spiritual?
Why not to accept Osho as a founder of something in banking/insurance/health care/religious sector and give him due recognition accordingly?
Why to pretend false bravado that I am enough unto myself?
Jabalpur to Junagarh to Amritsar to Mumbai: Acharaya Rajneesh Ji was living a good life while preaching religious rebelliousness. It is like politicians in opposition. It is easy job to criticise government policies without having the responsibility to provide real time results.
Most of the Indian mystics therefore remain contented with audience and microphone. They don´t take the chance to create community of disciples. My master did this.
Few other people´s master left behind a successful business to fuck it up.
Apropos of nothing, but I found this photo and it reminded me of Osho
Simond, you have to explain why such an inappropriate comparison.
I don´t mind when anyone pinpoints shadow side of Osho´s character. I am not one of those who have all-perfect, all-mighty master, who was never born, never died. In a way, such master is promoted as the younger brother of Jesus, who studied in the same college where Mohammad went. Still I find this public display of private thought offending.
Matter of the fact is, Simond, you never had any kind of emotional connection with Osho. You know what it means? It means what you feel for your girl/boyfriend and what you feel for the casual sex!
The master is just a mirror…and I don’t think you are cute as the puppy in the photo. You are a horrible guy suffering from envy.
Amrito, a sannyasin author, wrote about this kind of disease, here, in SN.
And you are right: I don’t like you!
Offended by a blissed-out dog…What next?
I wonder if Tan or Shantam have ever explored the notion of projection?
Simond, you are cornered. Don´t use this highly used shit called projection.
People using the term projection think they have mastered the human psychology. It is not. Blaming others for projection is a very crooked idea. I know this from the premises of Osho´s own property.
P.S:
Here Tan can say, Shantam is projecting this on Osho. He did not have property. He was just a guest!
In that case, it must be the only example in the history of mankind, Guests leave and owners become roofless!
Agree, Simond. It seems as if Tan and Shantam saw an animal and automatically perceived an insult, rather than the total, innocent surrender to absolute well-being and relaxation communicated in the beautiful photo.
Their response is almost on a similar spectrum, but less extreme, to Muslims being incensed by images of Mohammed.
If you believe that, SD, then you can not ever have felt that sense of personal connection to that man who was a living, breathing physical presence in our lifetime; and don’t tell me you don’t know he posted that photo to manipulate the reaction he got.
Not a problem for me, SD.
I would stand up for you if someone put you down when you weren’t around to defend yourself.
Will you stand up for me too, Arpana, or is it just your friends who you’d defend?
Will you stand up and defend those who think or believe in something different to you?
Have you ever wondered that in defending in the ways that you do, you are perceived by others as defensive and afraid? Are they right or wrong?
Do you hope that if you defend SD that you hope one day he will defend you, in a moment of crisis? And that you may need his protection? Because underneath your strong, confident personality you actually feel weak and unworthy? In the same way that most of us feel?
Have you considered how, as you heroically defend one moment, in the next you attack? How the two are deeply linked but hidden from your mind.
Have you observed that you tend to ignore or defend your aggressiveness and feel wounded that anyone, especially your friends, would ever describe you as such?
I know, of course, that you don’t care what I think or say, because I have no value for you. I’m just a reverend, an ex-sannyasin, a nasty piece of work. I shouldn’t be on this site, I’m just a egoist and in my mind. I have no heart, I stand for everything that is despicable and am vain etc. etc. etc.
So, perhaps you’d never seek to defend or to protect me.
But what about SD? Can you be sure he will act to help? What if he doesn’t? What about your other friends and allies? Can they be truly trusted either?
It’s not a happy thought, is it, that actually you aren’t so unlike me? I’m friendless, without allies and alone…Perhaps all that is different is that I don’t care. I don’t need friends to defend me. I’m supported and defended by something far deeper and more real – by the intelligence or being inside me, beyond personality.
I suggest, Arpana, that you look deeper into yourself, beyond the petty machinations of defence and attack, and seek out the place beyond it.
Where you do not need, nor seek the approval or disapproval of others, where a simple peace is waiting to be discovered. It’s in you as it always has been, waiting to be heard and found.
Why do you care about my opinion of you? I’m nobody. You’ve got the good opinion of SD and Lokesh.
In a way, this lengthy analysis of my personality has given me something, because in truth at one time it would have cut me down, and now it just makes me laugh.
You sound as if you want something from me. The reverse is not true.
I would not defend you or Lokesh, but imagine a scenario where I met someone who read this blog, and that man or woman tried to draw me into a conversation about you two, and ‘agreed’ with my opinion of you. Well, I would shut the conversation down.
I wouldn’t dream of denigrating you or Lokesh behind your back. Believe it or not, I never, as near as damn it, near 100%, don’t gossip. I let people know how I feel about them. Both if I like them and don’t, to their face, and live with the consequences.
It’s a funny old number not gossiping, because one is instantly separated from any possibility of being part of a co-dependency network.
I don’t expect SD to defend me.
We haven’t signed a contract.
We are not in a co-dependent relationship.
Arps, the first time I talked to Poonjaji he told me to mind my own business, be here, be quiet and not gossip. At first, I wondered why on earth he said that to me and eventually came to realise he was giving simple advice on how to lead a peaceful life. Nothing good ever comes out of gossiping.
Tell me about it.
I had an epiphany.
I found out someone had been back-stabbing me, and suddenly heard myself doing the same.
I grew up in that moment. Pre-Sannyas as well.
Simond in his days with the clockwork orange people…pre-dating his Torquay hardman days and before he joined the ozzie romper-stomper spiritual ockers….
I don’t see it as a put-down of Osho though. I can understand if you think that something precious in you has been violated, as I assure you I know that reaction in my own past experience.
But really, the photo is beautiful and yes, even though it’s a mere dog, at some level it does somehow tend to communicate something of the master, however bizarre that might seem.
Diogenes` dog says:
“Take a deep breath, guys.”
If Rev. Simond feels validated by the idea that he manipulated me, he can have it. Welcome to it in fact.
Thanks for the second paragraph.
Well, Arps, if Simond deliberately tried to manipulate the reaction he got then he succeeded – and you fell for it, matey.
Anyway, only Simond knows whether that was the case, so perhaps he’ll confirm or deny it.
….
Precisely, SS (and BL!).
Looking at today’s spat more objectively, it’s surely an example of deeply held psycho-spiritual beliefs and values, including personal relationship with a master, aka ‘religious feelings’, being instantly outraged and thus eliciting conflict and, judging by some of the language used, the potential for violence.
It doesn’t matter whether such key values are based on imagination, lies even, as in conventional religions where long-dead masters are not only venerated but worshipped, at times as ‘gods’ or even as ‘God’, or whether they’re based on actual contact with, love of, and crucially, profound need of a master, whether alive or dead, the outcome can look very similar.
In today’s case, as I said, although such personal values are profoundly precious to the people concerned, I find the responses, or rather the reactions, surprisingly over-the-top, and I’m not surprised there was no manipulative intention from Simond.
Next you’ll be stoning people who don’t believe in your God/Osho and who “haven’t got your sense of personal connection.”
What you should be seeing is a blissed-out dog, a beautiful animal at peace with itself. A beautiful symbol of beauty and grace, with no mind or thought or care.
Anything else is your imagined and distrustful self, always seeking (and finding) pain and mistrust and abuse and injustice.
Isn’t it the intense emotional attachment, based on gratitude and love, for sure, and also insecurity and need, that feels so easily threatened by even the slightest hint or possibility of criticism of what’s treasured as closely as one’s very life, ie the intimate connection – imagined or real – with the master?
What I’m getting at is that, mixed with insecurity and need, such an inner connection can become a sort of minefield (eg by creating an imagined provocation or insult, or even in over-reacting to an intended criticism) and produce results that are, presumably, contrary to one’s best intentions.
The Gospel according to the Rev. Simond.
“Anything else is your imagined and distrustful self, always seeking (and finding) pain and mistrust and abuse and injustice.”
Yes, Simond, and yet the context is important.
And yes, the dog-pic is working good (like any similiar pic) as a strong confrontation, with all that anguish and tenseness a human being can be in. While looking at a creature which is in peace.
However, I am reading in the same response of yours: “Next you’ll be stoning people who don’t believe in your God/Osho and who “haven’t got your sense of personal connection.”
The latter attack, with which you start off your response, is quite strong (projection) stuff from your side as well, isn´t it?
Confronted on a daily basis of such mobbing murderous energy here, where I am living, I know what I am talking, when I say, fundamentalism is a strong lethal poison, and even then, when it is not spoken aloud, but lurking in the caché. And you (me) can go really tense when experiencing that.
Never experienced Samarpan as a ´fundamentalist, more close to a dreamer. Some aborigines say, the world is dreamt before coming into manifestation.
To shock a dreamer, just for the sake of showing up, how great one is functioning as a ‘shocker’ is odd in my eyes, might not at all serve the purpose to wake somebody up. (Btw, would you shock your dog?. Just for the sake to play with your pet? You wouldn´t, I guess).
Dogs are dreaming a lot, I heard, and saw, even go through nightmares etc.
And if it is so, like you presume/project here, that a human is stuck in his or her nightmares, shocking might not be a good remedy. At all.
Madhu
P.S:
Please, no ancient ´stories of hits from wild ZEN Masters now, throwing their disciples out of windows , etc. etc. There´s quite enough challenge available in everyday life….
Mr. Sofa specialist called SD, why not you share blissed-out Ms. Meera´s photo with the tag, ‘Alive Oshoness in female body’?
Simond can also post afterglow photo with the partner, it must be fucking enlightenment Osho talks about.
There is some aesthetics in life and etiquette too!
What a shame, people who write faceless don´t hesitate to post or appreciate dog´s photo imagining it is their stepdad! Dog must be more human than such jerks.
Totally offended…how can you see yourself as this beautiful dog? No way! Told you and repeat: you are horrible!
The beautiful, blissed-out dog is exactly that. A blissed-out dog.
Any idea of manipulating and calculating on my part to offend is imagined.
What you see is what you see.
‘Shantam’s idea of keeping to the topic. He says, “Most of the Indian mystics therefore remain contented with audience and microphone. They don´t take the chance to create community of disciples.”
This is untrue. Many spiritual teachers from India have created communities. It has been going on for centuries. Shantam makes much out of having a Sikh background. Ridiculous coming from a sannyasin, but there you go.
“The fundamental beliefs of Sikhism, articulated in the sacred scripture ‘Guru Granth Sahib’, include faith and meditation on the name of the one creator, unity and equality of all humankind, engaging in selfless service, striving for social justice for the benefit and prosperity of all, and honest conduct and livelihood while living a householder’s life. Very community spirited, to say the least.
After having spent a lifetime of travelling abroad and setting up missions, an aged Guru Nanak returned home to Punjab. He settled down at Kartharpur with his wife and sons. Pilgrims came from far and near to hear the hymns and preaching of the Master. Here his followers would gather in the mornings and afternoons for religious services. He believed in a castless society without any distinctions based on birthright, religion or sex. He institutionalised the common kitchen called langar in Sikhism. Here all can sit together and share a common meal, whether they were kings or beggars.”
I repeat, here Guru Nanak’s followers would gather in the mornings and afternoons for religious services. Sound familiar?
Shantam would do well to return to his Sikh roots in order to rein in his racist tendencies. Old Guru Nanak would never have tolerated such ignorance in his commune. Very similar to Osho on that level. “Nanak believed in a castless society without any distinctions based on birthright, religion or sex.”
Right on!
“SS, were you to ingest 60mg of Diazepam we would hear nothing from you during the next 24 hours, because you would be out for the count.” (Lokesh)
I enjoyed reading Ageh Bharti’s recollections. Lokesh seems to fulfill the role of loyal SN opposition. When Osho said, “Opposition is also necessary”, perhaps that was prescient?
What drugs Osho did, or did not, take is of no concern, Lokesh, unless there are expectations about how a Master ‘should’ act. Nor should assumptions be made about drug effects.
“After some time he [Maharajji (Neem Karoli Baba)] pulled the blanket over his face, and when he came out after a moment his eyes were rolling and his mouth was ajar and he looked totally mad. I got upset. What was happening? Had I misjudged his powers? After all, he was an old man (though how old I had no idea), and I had let him take twelve hundred micrograms [of LSD]. Maybe last time he had thrown them away and then he read my mind and was trying to prove to me he could do it, not realizing how strong the “medicine” really was. Guilt and anxiety poured through me. But when I looked at him again he was perfectly normal and looking at the watch.
At the end of an hour it was obvious nothing had happened. His reactions had been a total put-on. And then he asked, “Have you got anything stronger?” I didn’t. Then he said, “These medicines were used in Kullu Valley long ago. But yogis have lost that knowledge. They were used with fasting. Nobody knows now. To take them with no effect, your mind must be firmly fixed on God. Others would be afraid to take. Many saints would not take this.” And he left it at that.
When I asked him if I should take LSD again, he said, “It should not be taken in a hot climate. If you are in a place that is cool and peaceful, and you are alone and your mind is turned toward God, then you may take the yogi medicine.”
(Ram Dass)
Perfectly correct, Samarpan!
As Narendra Modi has made perfectly clear: the 5000 year-old sages, yogis and vedic scientists of mighty Bhorat discovered the plastic surgery, space-travel, stem cell genetics, public toilets and, of course, LSD! Oswald Owsley was a reincarnation of Vishnu!
Also with idea of karma reincarnation these mighty wise men of Bhorat were the original grateful dead!
Of course, the cynical dogs of SN will claim that Ram Das made up the story in order to try to convince hippies that meditation was better than acid, man, and was fooled by a simple sleight of hand from the venerable blanket baba!
Let them wallow in their ignorance while you go on with your perfectly correct beliefs that are not in any way self-serving!
Of course, as you clearly state, enlightened ones can and must take all the drugs that they want!
My guru, Swami Bhorat, takes Valium every day! It helps the come-down of the combo of crystal meth and viagra he gobbles, which is absolutely neccesary for him to take out of compassion and the tantric well-being of his female disciples!
And his balls become more and more enlightened every day!
Yahoo!
Bom Shankar!
Great, Yogi. Always good for a larf.
Seconded!
Samarpan, if you have the chance, spend one evening with Ageh Bharti and one with Lokesh.
Life is quite complex. Those who can make pulse rise because they can write great love stories does not mean they are great lovers too.
People like Lokesh have not eaten Osho´s work as home-grown viruses and infections. Lokesh went out when boat was getting over full!
Shantam says, “Lokesh went out when boat was getting over full!”
I know what he means. It wasn’t/isn’t quite like that. When the time arrived when I could have gone to the Ranch things were beginning to look decidedly weird on the Ranch. When my wife saw pictures of a sannyasin police force carrying automatic weapons she did not want to go, because it was such a heavy statement. We both hate guns.
Meanwhile, Sheela’s rise to power was building momentum. She was an obvious power-mad creep.
Meanwhile, on Ibiza we had our very own version of a mini-Sheela. His name was Devayana and he took it upon himself to impose strict sannyas law on the few hundred strong sannyas community, living on Ibiza at the time. He was a chip off the old General Franco block and had telephone conversations with Sheela to keep in touch with how much he could fuck up what was originally a really beautiful scene.
Time passed and my attentions strayed elsewhere. I always thought I would see Osho again, but it never happened. If you want to make God laugh tell him your plans.
I never actually reached a point in my life where I thought I am giving up sannyas. Most of my friends still call me Lokesh. I like the name.
During the last twenty years the most I felt Osho was in Lucknow, when I met HWL Poonja. I suppose it was because I would not have had such a great contact with Poonjaji had it not been for my contact with Osho, who taught me how to be open to such things. The two men were incomparable in many ways, but when you sat at old Poonjaji’s feet it was exactly the same vibe as when sitting with Osho. I became hip to the fact that if you meet a genuine teacher it will always feel like coming home…to your self.
If someone asks me if I am a sannyasin I generally say yes, or something smart, like Is that a trick question?”
To tell the truth, I can’t relate to a lot of what is going on in the name of Osho today. For me, Osho was a tremendous figure in my life. A true spiritual friend. He is gone now and the world surely lost a crazy diamond when he left.
Today, I follow spiritual practices that bear little in common with say, dynamic meditation etc. I stay with my current meditation because it works for me. How do I know? I will put it like this. The lower can never see the higher, but the higher can always see the lower.
If someone honestly believes Osho is working on them today, that is their business and really none of mine, even if I believe that sort of thing to be bullshit. The Osho I knew would have had a good laugh about such superstitious practices.
If someone were to ask me what kind of man Osho actually was I would tell them he was a man of Zen, if they were capable of understanding that. Men of Zen have no place for superstition in their lives. As Osho said, “I am absolutely against superstition; all kinds of superstitions must be destroyed.”
Right now, I am off up into the wilderness of the Scottish Highlands. No internet, no mobile phones, no indication that human beings exist. Ahhh…heaven.
“If you want to make God laugh tell him your plans.” How beautiful is that? Gold for the ending of the day. Cheers!
Such posts as Lokesh has written simply go into the heart.
One can just imagine, if there is a living community around, how generation after generation can go on enriching life with their stories on the path. Every collective does not create jihads and crusades, much sweetness also takes place when seekers on the path meet.
One more reason for me to liberate Pune Commune. It will be such a great get together if all the old sinners and saints feel welcome and inspired to visit Pune one last time.
Why not to end the journey of life with really goodbye and to see you again at the place which became part of our inner life?
Shantam, it is not a question of liberating anywhere. It is a question of liberating your self. Do that and all else will follow.
Mind you, liberating Pune Commune might be a lot easier.
Liberating Oneself is a religious cliche!
Those who say they are liberated have also feet of clay. With time, the followers wash the clay and implant feet of gold.
Surely, if there is a clinical trial of brain mapping of liberated beings, I would really like to present myself in comparison study.
I feel it will be great spiritual service if religious phrases pass through certain kind of fire tests. Just oratory is poetry or interactive pornography!
How convenient to adopt and cling to such a belief. I suggest you look into your laziness, Shantam!
And btw, if you really do think along such lines then what the hell do you think Sannyas is about? A social club ‘with benefits’ would seem to be the answer.
Come on, be honest with yourself for once.
The joke is that this man actually believes he’s fit to take over the flamin’ ashram! You really couldn’t make it up….
Satyadeva, you are an armchair seeker in my eyes. I don´t see any sharpness.
If you cannot make fun of the usual one liners, then South Indian traditionalists are good for you. Osho is too sharp a chilli for such people.
I suggest you research the definition of ‘projection’ again, Shantam, as the above nonsense fits you like a glove – like so many of your comments about others.
Still, thanks anyway, it’s always good to laugh out loud and long in the morning….
Again, the absurd rational baboon and have-a-go psycho-analist SD chops his logic and projects his projections like an armchair Mr Spock whilst Shantambhai heroically offers to baldly go where other bald guys on SN fear to go!
Would SD be willing to undergo clinical trial of brain mapping as Shantambhai has heroically offered to do? It is certainly time to go ‘head to head’ in clinical trial!
I am certain that the finest neurosurgeons will find that SD brain is full of mind which is nothing but mind!
But Shantam is a Sikh!
Inside his head they will find no mind, but will uncover a 400 year-old pair of heavily stained underwear, a German social security card and a dog-eared TV guide for the XXXX channels!
Neuroscientists will certainly agree, along with astrologers, graphologists, the invisible readers and all those who have banged head on holy marble and are now banging the head on his facebook wall, that the day will come when Shantambhai`s and Osho`s dream is finally fulfilled as he is carried aloft on his armchair through the Gateless Gate by singing and cheering seekers, gora girls and Japanese porn stars for one last spiritual gang-bang before he goes to Dispatch Dept. for one last time, to be dispatched to next life as someone with a life!
Yahoo!
Hari Om!
Neem Karoli Baba’s LSD trip is pretty much old hat by now. What that story did was launch a new kind of enquiry for the sixties generation.
Truth is, Alpert could have been duped into believing the baba swallowed enough acid to float a magic bus, so excited was he to be with a master. I like to believe the baba did the trip. I was in the area at that time but missed it. Some close family members hung out with the baba and, going by their reports, he was definitely a very magic man.
To use this story in connection with Osho’s valium intake is ridiculous. Osho wasn’t a yogi for a start. Writing this I feel the topic has reached its sell-by date.
Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!
You say: “Samarpan, if you have the chance, spend one night with Ageh Bharti and one with Lokesh.”
It is utterly clear that along with stem cell genetics, plastic surgery, air travel, space travel, prozac and LSD, the sages of mighty Bhorat, in their infinite wisdom, also came up with “Blind Date”!
It has served us well for 5000 years of marriage!
Also, if one meditates deeply at the temples of Khajuraho, it is obvious that the sages of mighty Bhorat also invented threesomes!
Dick Rambone is an incarnation of Shiva! So why not Samarpan can take on Ageh and Lokesh in same night?
As you rightly say, “there is risk of homegrown viruses and infections”, but surely we must follow diktat of master: “Live dangerously”!?
Yahoo!
Phwooar!
“Writing this I feel the topic has reached its sell-by date.” (Lokesh)
Yes, that is the impression you give about Sannyas. Yet you hang around SN and sample the merchandise. Off to the Scottish Highlands with you!
Isn’t this what really gets up your nose though, Samarpan? As it directly contradicts what you hold so very dear?
“If someone honestly believes Osho is working on them today, that is their business and really none of mine, even if I believe that sort of thing to be bullshit. The Osho I knew would have had a good laugh about such superstitious practices.
If someone were to ask me what kind of man Osho actually was I would tell them he was a man of Zen, if they were capable of understanding that. Men of Zen have no place for superstition in their lives. As Osho said, “I am absolutely against superstition; all kinds of superstitions must be destroyed.” “
SD, Sammy strikes me as a bit of a wally. Coming away with the old Ram Das story like it’s hot news and things like that. Gives the impression he is a newbie.
That’s what I mean when I say that I can’t relate to a lot of what goes on in Osho’s name today. Sammy gives the impression he is one of those white robe brothers, watching Osho vids, listening to Osho talks, reading Osho books and thinking that Osho is working on him.
Well, he does need a wee bit of work for sure. There’s no denying that. Good luck to him.
I don´t know, Lokesh, if Samarpan was ever “one of those White Robe brothers”, how you put it. But it may be the right moment to share with you and all, that I went to White Robe Meeting every evening for a very, very long time here and felt deeply nourished by that Silence and Inspiration I got out of it.
Was well known and despised for that too. Maybe the right moment to share that. So I have been one of ´those White Robe sisters´, if you don´t mind.
However, I am truly able to relate to your sharings quite often, even though our paths-walkings seem to be very different.
Madhu
Sounds good, Madhu. Never went to a White Robe happening. I am sure it could have been great for me to do so. Having said that, I do not feel I missed anything.
Madhu,
Why not you create an article about Osho White Robe Brotherhood from personal as well as historical perspective?
And here is for Lokesh:
I never tried LSD. I am sure it could have been great for me to do so. Having said that, I do not feel I missed anything.
If one has not tasted something how one can even miss it? Think over it.
“Gives the impression he is a newbie.” (Lokesh)
I am a newbie, Lokesh. Thank you for noticing.
@ Samarpan
https://youtu.be/bm3lZG1MTJs
No problem, Sammy, it was easy.
“Writing this I feel the t o p i c has reached its sell-by date.”
Too sad, Samarpan, that you didn´t really read what Lokesh was writing at 1.58 pm, what exactly he referred to and then later shared – especially at 5.39 pm.
Concerning the given topic, I would say anyway, that it was abandoned quite much earlier.
Madhu
Yes, Madhu, I was referring to Osho’s Valium intake. Does not take long to feel it’s a worn out topic.
Thing about Sammy is he just needs to feel self-righteous, defender of the faith etc. Can’t take people like that seriously, because they are doing plenty of that themselves.
“During the last twenty years the most I felt Osho was in Lucknow, when I met HWL Poonja. I suppose it was because I would not have had such a great contact with Poonjaji had it not been for my contact with Osho, who taught me how to be open to such things. The two men were incomparable in many ways, but when you sat at old Poonjaji’s feet it was exactly the same vibe as when sitting with Osho. I became hip to the fact that if you meet a genuine teacher it will always feel like coming home…to your self.”
This I presume was after Osho was gone physically?
And then…
“If someone were to ask me what kind of man Osho actually was I would tell them he was a man of Zen, if they were capable of understanding that. Men of Zen have no place for superstition in their lives. As Osho said, “I am absolutely against superstition; all kinds of superstitions must be destroyed.” ”
Does this mean that those were your superstitions which have evaporated now?
Lokesh, I relate to most of your sharings, this bit is confusing though.
To be honest, Kavita, I have a superstitious side. I reckon Osho was not in the least superstitious and saw superstition for what it was, as defined just so:
A belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, or trust in magic or chance.
Fair enough, Lokesh.
Then again, Osho became a bit superstitious towards the end…negative mantras coming in to Buddha Hall etc. It seems there exists a thin line at times between superstition and science.
Yes, to put it simply, I guess ignoring superstitious possibilities is the best in most cases.
Osho was against superstition but did mention that he felt he would still be around and felt that it might even be more helpful as mentioned in his “I leave you my dream” video:
https://youtu.be/xYe34M2T_g8
(Contradicted at other times, of course, by insistence that sannyasins should “find other masters when I am gone”).
You’re going to get yourself in trouble, SS. The important, highly evolved posters here at Sannyas News don’t approve of this sort of thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT9xuXQjxMM
Thanks for sharing, SS. I always cry watching this video, despite his advice that “it is not the way”!
Now, the advice that “sannyasins should find other masters when I am gone”, it is a nice way to tell them to fuck off! Osho was never rude, stern sometimes, but never rude! Cheers!
“Now, the advice that “sannyasins should find other masters when I am gone”, it is a nice way to tell them to fuck off!”
I suggest that belief suits you, Tan, but it’s not necessarily true, simply because many people need an alive master, even if you don’t.
To reject such people as ‘unworthy’, as you seem to be doing here, is itself unworthy of a fellow-seeker, betraying an uncomfortably closed, ‘cult’-like attitude.
I’ve heard the “sannyasins should find other masters when I am gone” remark, or rather heard of it, on innumerable occasions; and just didn’t cross my mind that was a device for offloading people, but you must admit, Osho being what he is, that’s a distinct possibility.
But Arpana, after Osho’s departure many people would just go on their ways and do whatever they wanted and needed to do without Osho’s say-so, “device” or not.
Realising that (and it’s not exactly arcane psychology) I recall he blessed ‘all seeking and all paths’ (approx. quote).
He sure as hell didn’t leave any rules for people to turn into dogma. We really do have to act or not, and live with the consequences. Sheesh.
As Satyadeva also mentioned here, Osho also sometimes encouraged people to move to other masters:
“Soon I will not be ‘ere either. And remember, I would like ter remind me disciples especially: If ya ‘eaven and ‘ell golden dove me, chicken pen I am gone I will direct ya ter people ‘oo will be Beechams Pill jack’s. So daan’t be afraid of that. If I send ya ter tibet or if I send ya ter china or if I send ya ter Japan or ter Iran – Scapa Fla. And daan’t say that ’cause ya belong ter me ya cannot belong ter anovver real master. ”
“Just butcher’s in the mince pies and ya will find me mince pies again. The body will not be the same but the mince pies will be the same. If your journey ain`t complete wif me while I am ‘ere, if summit is Beechams Pill ter be done, completed, then daan’t be afraid. By droppin’ me ya will not be betrayin’ me. In fact, by not droppin’ me and by not followin’ the real, the jack’s master, ya will be betrayin’ me. Keep it in Chinese Blind.”
(‘Sufis: The people of the Parf’, vol wahn (East-End text) )
Translation:
“Soon I will not be here either. And remember, I would like to remind my disciples especially: if you really love me, when I am gone I will direct you to people who will be still alive. So don’t be afraid of that. If I send you to Tibet or if I send you to China or if I send you to Japan or to Iran – go. And don’t say that because you belong to me you cannot belong to another real Master. Just look in the eyes and you will find my eyes again. The body will not be the same but the eyes will be the same.
If your journey is not complete with me while I am here, if something is still to be done, completed, then don’t be afraid. By dropping me you will not be betraying me. In fact, by not dropping me and by not following the real, the alive Master, you will be betraying me. Keep it in mind.”
(‘Sufis: The People of the Path’, Vol 1)
I didn’t mean unworthy people, Satyadeva.
What “fuck off” meant, in my opinion is: “I haven’t worked for you, and you are not happy with my popping off, so, find somebody else, and be happy!”
I am sure that you know that ‘fuck’ is a very versatile and religious word, praised by Osho many times, with various meanings, so….
Cheers!
Yes, ok, Tan, but I assure you – and surely you know anyway? – ‘fuck off’ is not particularly ‘polite’, however much Osho played around with the word(s), it communicates sheer hostility.
Ok. I am really sorry and I mean it.
Maybe this word doesn’t sound too bad to me because I wasn’t aware of it till in my early twenties when I started learning English just to understand Osho more.
I wouldn’t dare to call anyone unworthy! Cheers!
“Just look silently an’ deeply an’ you’ll find yaaahr master everywhere. The ‘ole existence’ll become suffused wiv yaaahr master. And ov caaahrse, da momen’ a master dies, ‘e makes da whole existence sacred fer ‘is disciples. In da stones they’ll touch ‘im, in da flaaahrs they’ll see ‘is colors, in da rainbows they’ll see ‘is beauty.
A disciple becomes so deeply immersed in da consciousness ov da master, what when da master’s consciousness spreads all over existence, da disciple at least can see it. That’s why in Zen when a master dies da disciples dance; they make a ceremony ov it, because their master is freed from all boundaries ov body an’ mind.
This freedom ov their master is an indicashun ov their own freedom. This freedom ‘as ter be respected, recognized, froo their ceremony, froo their songs an’ dances.
‘Zen: The Diamond Thunderbolt’ (East-End text).
Translation:
“Just look silently and deeply and you”ll find your master everywhere.
The whole existence will become suffused with your master. And of course, the moment a master dies, he makes the whole existence sacred for his disciples. In the stones they will touch him, in the flowers they will see his colours, in the rainbows they will see his beauty.
A disciple becomes so deeply immersed in the consciousness of the master, that when the master’s consciousness spreads all over existence, the disciple at least can see it. That’s why in Zen when a master dies the disciples dance; they make a ceremony of it, because their master is freed from all boundaries of body and mind.
This freedom of their master is an indication of their own freedom. This freedom has to be respected, recognized, through their ceremony, through their songs and dances.”
@swamishanti
4 September, 2016 at 5pm
Wheredja get this from, Shants?
Good, innit?
(More seriously, that piece is intense, affecting. Surprisingly so. Couldn’t have seen the impact coming).
I heard that from a bloke down the pub, mate.
He also told me something else that Osho said:
“Even if I leef the bloody body I ain`t garn ter leef me sannyasins. I will be as much available as I am wite na. But the bleedin’ only fing ter remember is – ‘re ya available ter me?
I am available ter ya, and I will remain as available forever. If ya ‘re available ter me then there is nah need ter be afraid, then a lin’ exists.
And wif me sannyasins I am individually linked. It aint a question that ya belong ter an organization, it aint an organization at aw. It is a personal relationship, it is a golden dove affair. If ya ‘re open ter me, even if this body disappears, it aint garn ter make any difference. I will be available ter ya.”
Translation:
“Even if I leave the body I am not going to leave my sannyasins. I will be as much available as I am right now. But the only thing to remember is – are you available to me?
I am available to you, and I will remain as available forever. If you are available to me then there is no need to be afraid, then a link exists.
And with my sannyasins I am individually linked. It is not a question that you belong to an organization, it is not an organization at all. It is a personal relationship, it is a love affair.
If you are open to me, even if this body disappears, it is not going to make any difference. I will be available to you.”
╭( ･ㅂ･)و ̑̑ ˂ᵒ͜͡ᵏᵎ⁾✩
MOD: TRANSLATION, PLEASE, Arps (OR someone!)
There is a little smile; a little wave, and an OK in the glyph.
That is too cute. Well, thanks for catching me unawares!
On a divergence on this string of, I think, yesterday…
I always thought that Ram Dass was sincere, but a bit missing on the street wisdom level. Neem Karoli Baba suffered, as did Osho, with diabetes. He died actually of a diabetic coma, when one presumes he did not take his insulin.
I don’t believe in miracles. Many of these Indian dudes are good at sleight of hand, and the acid story seems even more unlikely given the Baba suffered so badly from diabetes.
Ram Das carried on in the 70s to be a follower of a small-time American guru, Joya Santana (Ma Jaya Sati Bhagavati).
He shagged her for a while, then got disillusioned and split when he later found out that her “incredible energy” was due to her enormous intake of amphetamines.
He clearly had a blind spot vis-a-vis drugs.
It`s a great superhero fantasy tho` – necking insane amounts of gear and remaining “totally conscious”.
Btw, it must be time for a new-age version of ‘Autobiography of a Yogi’, updated ‘Autobiography of a Bhogi’. It should have a few whizzed-up, alky, downerfreak, tripping, loved-up Yogis buzzing about wreaking havoc, completely off their original faces but with total awareness.
Maybe a new novel project for Lokesh?
Doesn’t appear to be any doubt he experienced physical pain, but if that was so he would be able to experience physical pleasure. Painful sensations. Pleasurable sensations. Don’t have one without the other.
Sometimes pain-reducing substances create pleasurable sensations.
Why not a novel project to Yogi? Cheers!
Ram Das is a sweet guy. He is gay. Took a lot of acid. Had a serious stroke and now rides around in a wheelchair. I like his books. He has the knack of putting a spiritual slant on everything that happens to him.
He did a disservice to spiritual life by being so naive about the ‘powers’ of Indian gurus, in the sixties. Took many seekers the wrong way and led to the abuse of the word ‘miracl.
Perfectly correct, Tan!
Osho certainly was perfectly correct to tell those fuckers to fuck off and to give guidelines so that his disciples would also tell them to fuck off!! Not out of aggression, as the absurd logical baboon Satya Deva is claiming, but out of pure compassion!
As Arpana points out, it was a device to offload the unworthy rubbish disciples onto a bunch of third-rate wannabe gurus! The device has been working wonderfully since Osho left the body!
The baboons who would entertain the idea of betraying neo-Sannyas and disobeying Osho’s guidelines have been slowly but surely fucked off from the movement leaving only the true disciples – Tan, Arpana, Shantam, Samarpan, a few hardcore neo-hindus and a couple of alcoholic baboons!
It is perfectly correct!
What can the unconscious fools know of the way of the wise men of mighty Bhorat?
Only yesterday, my guru, Swami Bhorat, out of compassion told his disciples to fuck off! He was administering tantric energy to some Tamil actresses behind the podium when some disciples walked in and were horrified and remonstrated with him! But they simply did not realise that it was a device to destroy their preconceived ideas about how an enlightened one should act!
To complete the device and drive his spiritual point home, Bhorat then attempted to wash down a handful of Valium and Dexies with a bottle of Jack Daniels, when the foolish disciples attempted to grab the bottle from him!
Like a Zen master, he punched both in the eye and told them to fuck off!
I was sitting next to Samarpan and he turned to me with a knowing look in his eye and said:
“What drugs Bhorat does, or does not, take is of no concern, unless there are expectations about how a Master ‘should’ act. Nor should assumptions be made about drug effects.” And then proceeded to recount the very pertinent story of Ramdas’s guru.
Yahoo!
Hari Om!
Absolutely perfect use of “fuck off” in that sentence, Tan.
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