Below is part of the current text about “taking sannyas” from Pune, and from those who knew Osho in his last days most intimately. Many consider these instructions were left by Osho. They certainly seem “modern”. One wonders in that context about what people as different as Veeresh and Arun are doing by disempowering those who “take ” sannyas from them. To us it does not ring true in the 21st century, and we are interested in what SN readers feel. ((SN Editors).
” Now, sannyas is available to anyone who chooses to make the decision “to live life in its totality, but with an absolute condition, categorical condition: and that condition is awareness, meditation”. Individuals can now do this without the involvement of anyone else. This respects the individual and his or her freedom and choice: As Osho said: “It is your decision. Always remember, whatsoever happens here is your decision. If you are a sannyasin, it is your decision. If you drop sannyas, it is your decision. If you take it again, it is your decision. I leave everything to you.”
Osho said, “The sannyas movement is not mine. It is not yours. It was here when I was not here. It will be here when I will not be here. The sannyas movement simply means the movement of the seekers of truth. They have always been here.”
If you are such a seeker, you can now go ahead and complete the process of confirming for yourself that you are indeed a sannyasin – without anyone else’s assistance.“
Seems like Osho left the instructions in the deep freezer, wrapped in a plastic folio. Like a wise grand parent, He even wrote the instructions about the instructions, ” Open this in 2000, 2003, 2007, 2010….” and so on!
Actually Shantam,
I am surprised you dont go to Nepal. What Arun does is almost a complete copy of what Osho used to do.
Of course it has no power as it is just a copy. Nonetheless I have a feeling you would be at home.
I don’t see Arun’s Nepal effort anywhere near as “raw and controversial” as Osho’s. Shantam should go to the Resort and change them from within.
Vartan is correct. “What Arun does is almost a complete copy of what Osho used to do.”
This is not true. He is far less controversial than Osho, a bit religious. He chats in his groups but there are no discourses as such. He does have a lot of spiritual power, but nothing like the power Osho had. He obviously loves Osho and his groups are very powerful.
“Of course it has no power”….. how do you say that? I have seen people go crazy and I remember myself going through a lot when I took sannyas. He makes it very clear that sannyas is from Osho only and not from Him, every other group leader I have seen says that. I have seen Vedant, Keerti, Neelam and all Indian camp leaders say and do the same.
My 2c.
Well, people ‘going crazy’ doesn’t necessarily mean anything, does it? Never underestimate the power (or force, if you like) of the mind, emotions and any surrounding emotional hype around these rituals to create such dramatic effects.
As for these ‘camp leaders’ claiming to channel Osho’s energy, I’d be very sceptical about that, it sounds like a load of old psychic baloney, geared to fulfilling the wishes of themselves and their willing audience.
Wouldn’t it be more honest for them to simply stand as themselves, as sincere Osho lovers and ‘servants’, (if you like)?
There might not be so much to get hyper-excited about, it wouldn’t be so ‘glamorous’, but at least there would be truth, integrity in the situation.
I think what you guys are trying to describe is “the buddha-field” effect.
Any bunch of people meditating and listening to Osho for a few a days can do it. Any longer than that and the mind begins to creep back in.
Osho could do it with his mere presence but that is another story.
those camp leaders sound like they`re having a gay old time….
carry on up the chakras,i say…
What I’m trying to describe,Vartan, is the delusion of ‘camp leaders’ (yes, frank!) who are unable to see they’re imagining things, ie that they’re somehow ‘channelling Osho’s energy’.
Plus the self-willed delusion of ‘the crowd’ who imagine likewise.
Osho’s living presence was one thing, this other stuff – however sincerely meant – is quite another.
One was profoundly spiritual, the other is just psychic, borderline voodoo even. There’s a world of difference between the two.
“camp leaders doing psychic borderline voodoo”
sounds like a good night out.
julian clary,mystic meg and derren brown all on the same stage?
cool.
could you get us a couple of tickets?
satyadeva says:
>> One was profoundly spiritual, the other is just psychic, borderline voodoo even. There’s a world of difference between the two.
There is good and bad everywhere and I am sure the sane can figure out what’s what. As for the not so sane, who cares?
Apart from “the not so sane” though, perhaps many who are relative newcomers (a few “not so sane” among them?!) might well not realise what’s going on, ie they’ll take this for something more ‘real’ than it actually is.
As for: “As for the not so sane, who cares?”, well, may I remind you Osho himself used to say he was the guru for “the crazies”…
It is just that doing a meditation in Arun’s presence is more powerful than doing it in his absence. It is an experiential thing. You know when you have done a deep meditation and you know when your meditation was only superficial. In that sense Arun is a channel of Osho.
But why necessarily of Osho, Alok?
Why not of Life, the Divine, Spirit, whatever you want to call It?
Bringing Osho into it brings in the ‘psychic’ element, it sort of muddies the waters…
This is exactly how religions are born, isn’t it? Well-meaning, 100% sincere people wanting to keep things as they were when the original Master was alive – rituals, ceremonies, now even a certain ‘channelling’ element.
All run by ‘priests’ who can’t stand alone and so lack spiritual power.
No doubt plenty of good stuff goes on, but let’s see it for what it is, a sort of ‘copy’ of what was once truly vibrantly alive.
Well maybe, SD. But generally Arun uses Osho techniques….the standard meditations or meditations in Osho books. Also isn’t there a sort of flavour of sannyas? I mean Buddhist meditations and Osho meditations are both meditations, but isn’t there a sort of flavour imparted by Osho meditations. Some people used to say just after the red clothes were dropped that they could spot sannyasins—they all carried a certain vibe, as it were. In Arun’s groups I think you get the same vibe. So in those two senses I think it is okay for Arun to say he is a channel of the Olde Boy. BTW, he does not labour the point.
I’ve listened to more than half of Swami Arun’s interviews on You Tube and I feel that his heart is in the right place. I don’t think the words “channeling Osho” came from his mouth. My view is that Osho was the biggest thing that happened to Swami Arun and he can’t stop talking about it. And I am happy to hear it.
Swami Arun telling the story about his first meeting with Osho is second to none …
Imagine … in twenty to thirty years there will be nobody left who met Him …
I’m sure you and Alok are right about Arun, there’s no doubting his pure-hearted sincerity, nor the vast amount of good work he’s put in over the years. (What a refreshing contrast to the appalling ‘Osho Rajnesh’, for example).
Although I’m still uneasy about the ‘going crazy’ taking sannyas from Arun story. Such phenomena remind me of the various psycho-physical disturbances that happen to people undergoing so-called ‘faith healing’ in certain allegedly Christian groups in the US, brilliantly highlighted by Derren Brown and his team in a recent UK tv documentary.
Brown and a couple of other acting (etc.) experts trained a man from scratch to act like a ‘healing minister’ and sure enough, dramatic effects followed his emotionally-charged ministrations among a group of fairly desperate (it seemed) believers.
As I said, never underestimate the power of the emotionally hyped mind, esp among a suggestible crowd of like mentality, only too eager for a bit of drama to ‘prove’ ‘divine intervention’.
You might call it the ‘Buddhafield Effect’, Vartan, others might feel it’s closer to a sort of group-induced hysteria.
Some might say, ‘Yes, but the same sort of stuff happened around Osho in similar circumstances, so it must be authentic, it must ‘mean something’.
Far more chance of that being so around the true Master, and far greater chance of self-deluding fakery – at some level, not necessarily totally conscious – without that consciousness presiding over the scene.
One is real, the other (and I’m not referring to Arun himself here) a copy (along rather similar lines to Osho and his would-be clone, ‘Osho Rajneesh’).
@Vartan…..
I have been to several of Arun’s weekends, and once he told the story of his first meeting with Osho. He obviously loves/loved the Olde Boy.
satyadeva says:
>> You might call it the ‘Buddhafield Effect’, Vartan, others might feel it’s closer to a sort of group-induced hysteria.
Apart from the point that the first is positive and other negative … the way I feel that it works is that it operates on the level that you are better off sitting in the office thinking about the beach than being on the beach and thinking about the office. You are where your mind is. The ‘Buddhafield Effect’ is an event which occurs when the body and the mind are the same place (for a period). Now, you may wish to call that “a group-induced hysteria” but I am sure you can see that there more parameters at play. I’d say that it works closer to the phenomenon of stigmata, but without the stigmata.
Vartan:
the way I feel that it works is that it operates on the level that you are better off sitting in the office thinking about the beach than being on the beach and thinking about the office. You are where your mind is.
SD:
You are where your mind is? Shouldn’t that be ‘You are where your body is’ and ‘You’re just dreaming, unconscious, if you mentally drift off anywhere else’?
Sure, there are “more parameters at play”, but I remain convinced that whatever positives are involved in post-Osho-alive sannyasin group gatherings, there’s a general, pretty well tangible wish in the air for drama, excitement, one might say ‘emotionally dramatic experience’, which I suggest inevitably leads to people creating scenarios of so-called ‘craziness’, freak-outs etc., then wrongly labelling them ‘spiritual’ rather than ‘psychic’.
satyadeva says:
>> Sure, there are “more parameters at play”
I trust introjection. Everything I’ve seen up to now has been ok.
This reminds me of the schism at the Papist Council of Trent sometime on a Thursday in 1560-something, when many of the faithful were called to discuss how many angels could fit on the head of a pin.
It’s actually top dollar news really.
Last week I excommunicated myself from the Huttite Church of Alabama, and previous to that I thought long and hard about becoming a pastor for the vegan Lutheran Kirkegaard Church of Libidinists for Christ and the John Hoguean Nutcase Nostradamians, by sending in a cheque for $50.
In the end I bought a copy of Porn again Vegans for Jesus and sinned ferociously to myself whilst earnestly seeking for something revelatory between the covers.
If finding copy has become a tad tricky , with the lovely spring weather , an’ all, taking people out and about, I can send you a shortened version of my life story for discussion. I’ll fill it with important seeker stuff .. and bingo the world map will light up with replies…
ps.
Where is Frank ?
That photo is of Swami Rajneesh’s mala , certificate & pouch , actually I have been with him during this time when he was selecting them & also when they arrived in may 2008.
Frankly I stopped reading osho books /quotes the day I came to know that they have been edited .
Anyway sanyas is such a individual /personal matter , just like any other activity .
Pic now corrected
thank you sannyasnews
>> One wonders in that context about what people as different as Veeresh and Arun are doing by disempowering those who “take ” sannyas from them.
Do we know of many (or any) self-made sannyasins? … who ordered a mala online?
The way I understand it is that, these days, you can do whatever you want and anyway most newbies wouldn’t have a clue about what giving power away means. I see power being given away today (as we speak) … but if it helps somebody … so what? I wouldn’t even call it dis-empowering, more like, energy-direction.
My personal understanding is that it matters not an iota on how somebody finds Osho because once they find him, Osho will get through. I feel that both Arun and Veeresh are doing the best with what they have, but Oshos they are not. A blend of Arun and Veeresh would be a better balance. Currently, one is a tad too-East and the other a tad too-West.
shantam prem says:
>> Seems like Osho left the instructions in the deep freezer, wrapped in a plastic folio.
Osho repeatedly said that his messages are all in his teachings (books) and there is no need to be looking any further, either into his private life or into his freezer.
Bodhi Vartan, you seems to be an academic expert of Osho literature..
What Osho has repeatedly said or not said, I don´t know, it can be I was sleeping in the discourses…but this much I have heard Him saying that never speak in absolute terms about the masters teachings. It is more appropriate to say, ” I have heard Master saying….”, in this way there is some scope of other interpretation too.
I know this was not heard by the regime of last 30 years. They too speak in absolute terms, and the result is quite obvious. Today again I got the information from a Poona based friend, ” He has not seen so less people coming to Pune as this year. Record low”.
When quality learning can happen through correspondence course, why one should go to university.
Why?
If the Master says apparently contradictory things it’s up to the individual to take whatever they feel is right for him/herself, then go and live it and see where it leads. Pretty simple really.
“One wonders in that context about what people as different as Veeresh and Arun are doing by disempowering those who “take ” sannyas from them. ”
I agree with vartan. “Disempowering them” is psychobabble.
pS pic looks like the “sannyas” of Sw “Rajneesh”
Pic corrected
BV,
It’s great that the diaspora has differences and irreconcilable opposites and schisms. I have enjoyed the varieties on offer at times, and paid for the stupidities at other times.
What I really determinedly oppose is the classifying of corporate blessed stigmata,(consciousness theatre) via the stamp of subtly codified social interactions, their range of inputs and their huge unaddressed expectations.
There is a whole raft of so called religionists, white robe, love of paths, humanoids, primal tantristas who are defining their own validity. Their own need to shepherd , their own wills to power, which they have conveniently cottoned onto this era’s soft osho-sell.
There is a known Tantric self appointee with appropriate grand title to boot, who gave themselves the title, upon whom authority is conferred by others who then give themselves kudos, ad infinitum ,because of associative identity. And how did this happen ? Because the said partner of the said tantrika , left the said tantrika for a younger partner, causing the remaining tantrika to re-invent their own tantric authority for the market with added hoo haa, to steady their own potentially relapsing identity.
We have primalistas who go into a veritable bourgeois infantile tiswas when their own elderly even more bourgeois parent comes to visit them.
Meantime their afficionados dance merrily to tunes which gives these mala and name awarding primalistas all the authority and knowingness of a Swiss Psychologists Medical White-Coat jamboree with all the institutional hand shaking but without the questioning of motives or presumptions , after all corporate psychologists were Osho’s favourite product line after meditation wallahs.
Because guys, a religion is being formed for the social benefit of mankind, and they are its progenitors… just by haloed self-approval,….. ….not because of any deep throated disfunctional ambitiousness which has hardly allowed themselves these relaxing intimacies which they so dearly love to promote they are deeply living, and is their main product line…oh no…perish the thought.
The equation.. you give the money, they give the experience. Have you heard of Zippos circus ?
But if it was a real circus I’d join… thing is it doesn’t have the buffonery or the skills on offer.. or the fun. Not these days, as its all packaged for an end result. Which keeps people like me away.
Selling integrity is a bit shame faced isn’t it. Give me old fashioned mutual exchange of experiences to foster a living intentional community any day, not these weekend liberations for the mortgaged lifestyles of the privileged understanders of Oshoism.
It’s my opinion that taking sannyas now is pretty much obsolete. For me it was about how you felt in Osho’s presence when he was alive and kicking, a flag for rebels to gather round for one last stand etc. Times have changed and now that the old man is dead so has the nature of taking sannyas.
I’m sure that for some newbies it might still be an exciting step to get a new name etc, yet somehow, in my eyes at least, the train has left the station quite some time ago. In retrospect what Osho left behind was quite a mixed bag in terms of the effect he had on people who were touched by him. Some blossomed, some wilted, some just faded back into normalacy, some went mad.
This morning, I was discussing with a sannyasin friend the strange case of a top sannyasin group leader who has just been commited into a mental hospital after a psychotic episode. The razor’s edge certainly has its dangers. One of my spiritual heroes once described how to recognize an enlightened person. ‘Well,’ he said, ‘they will probably be leading a quiet life and not be drawing attention to themselves.’ For me there is a lot in that answer.
So, as far as modern day sannyas-taking goes, I’d say its entirely up to the individual. I’m not faced with such a decision and it is none of my business. If questioned further on the matter I’d say it’s a simple case of when the shoe fits. Thing is that in todays world modern day sannyas is a very watered-down version of how it started out. The fire is almost out.
Bowie sang, ‘Ashes to ashes, funk to funky
We know Major Tom’s for a junkie.
Strung out in heaven’s high.
Hitting an all-time low.
Bowie said that with “Ashes to Ashes” he was “wrapping up the seventies really for myself, and that seemed a good enough epitaph for it”
Maybe for sannyas too. Only time will tell.
“This morning, I was discussing with a sannyasin friend the strange case of a top sannyasin group leader who has just been committed into a mental hospital after a psychotic episode.” (care to elaborate?!)
Now that sounds interesting Loki… and gossipy … what I found good about Pune one was it’s immediate invitation to hang out and just spend time gossiping. In 1974 the first sannyasin I ever met told me that Osho spent at least one hour a day gossiping with Laxmi…. now that sounded an interesting master to me compared with what else I had seen on the self important and “serious” roads of India.
Yes, Parmartha, I catch your transcendental drift. I’m parital to a wee morsel of tasty gossip from time to time myself. Unfortunately I gave my word to keep my big mouth shut on this one. I’m old fashioned in that I try to keep my word. Apart from that, Papaji told me to be here, keep quiet, mind my own business and not gossip. The man was a hard taskmaster.
As it happens the incident in question gave me food for thought in the sense it might make a good thread around the theme of the razor’s edge. Over the past forty or so years I’ve seen quite a few of my contemporaries lose the plot, some left to wander the void of a blown mind for the rest of their earthly incarnation.
sannyas is probably dead…
pushin` up the daisies,shuffled off its mortal coil,its metabolic process come to an end , kicked the bucket etc etc….
on the other hand,rumours of my death have been greatly exaggerated.
however,as frank the avatar of the age of cynicism,i must say that after some years of trying to convince ancien and nouveau washtup hippies,spiritually obese religionists,marble-kissers,satsang junkies,`ave-a-go-advaitists,enlightenment lickers,parrots,ex-parrots, past-their-sell-by date cult members and various other spiritually-challenged relig-idiots drowning in de nile that father xmas doesnt exist,i have finally decided to leave my body.
its been a pleasure doing pleasure with you all.
“franko
never bored
never died
just visited planet jackass for a while…”
i leave you my…….
Frankji… we are at a loss over the 21 of your inner circle who have already started bickering in your name.. any chance of some tips over how to have a really good final bust up without this pussy footying ‘last wishes’ mullarkey of other religions…
“It is no good to keep the tree in the middle of the Pune traffic. Its polluting air will destroy the soft leaves.”, said one of the cronies to the big boss.
“You are right. Master has handed over his cherished dream to me. I cannot allow this to happen. What we should do now”, boss enquired in the closed door meeting.
“My idea is that we should hire a professional gardening company to relocate the tree in this vast office complex. 24 hours Air conditioning will help the tree to live long and healthy,” suggested one NRI sannyasin from LA!
“I like it. Osho loves always out of the box approach.” Boss said while sipping his evening drink.
In this encouraging atmosphere, IT expert also an NRI, who was participating in the management team meeting first time, suggested, ” We can even install CCT camera, fellow sannyasins living around the world can feel how sensitive and passionate we are for the growth of Osho´s neo Sannyas!
Shantam, don’t you have anything better to do? Your Resort obsession probably has something to do with a repressed sexual episode during your childhood, says that old fart Siggy, but like your posts nobody is much interested in that sort of thing these days.
So Lokesh, Let us start a new thread and talk about Papa ji, Mami ji, Ganga Ji, Yamuna ji, Kaveri ji, Godawari ji…
I wonder, why there is no Jennifer or Jessica, Dorothy or Daniela, George or Germania in the spiritual market?
May be for the reason, There is No JI in their culture!
Funny enough, during the last summer on Ibiza I could not help noticing that many people were adding ji as a suffix to their name. Bahramji, Maureenji, Ohmji, etc. Ji whizz is this a new trend exclussive to Ibiza or is i going on elsewhere? Lokeshji.
Could be significant.
Idiot Shantam has still not healed his childhood repressed sexuality, That is why he is harping for a dead Ashram..
All others thousands who were sitting on their ass and singing the praise of short man with long beard have gone beyond their repression, that is why they have buried the ghosts of the past. They are in blissful silence even during 69ing!
Bravo! Congratulations….
I like Jizzi .. it sort of leaves the girls wondering…
Gandhooji, putting the fizzy into the jizzi.
satyadeva says:
17 April, 2013 at 11:34 am
If the Master says apparently contradictory things it’s up to the individual to take whatever they feel is right for him/herself, then go and live it and see where it leads. Pretty simple really.
Satya deva, It is pretty simple if you enter in a store. You can pick chose and go.
But the bankruptcy of that store is not far away, where the store manager tells the staff, ” Sorry guys, we cannot keep red shirts, I don´t like this colour. My wife does not like low cut orange colour lingerie, and also those brands…please never order that again….”
Position brings responsibility, one needs to put one´s own mind aside. Look at the bus drivers. Whole life they drive on those routs which are not connected with their life at all.
You seem to miss my point, Shantam, which is simply to cut through any confusion about a Master’s apparently contradictory teachings. As I said, all you do is take what seems right for you and go and live it as best you can. Only then can you know if it ‘works’ for you, right?
I wasn’t referring to any ‘political’ concerns, just to the individual.
And trust you to provide a women’s low-cut underwear metaphor…Better get across to Nepal before your time runs out, mate….
Parmartha says:
Actually Shantam,
I am surprised you dont go to Nepal. What Arun does is almost a complete copy of what Osho used to do.
Of course it has no power as it is just a copy. Nonetheless I have a feeling you would be at home.
It is not every day, Parmartha gives advise. As editor of this site, I am sure he has immense sense of balance. All kind of thoughts he has to read first before allowing the publishing space. Respect!
Respect does not really means, master of one trade becomes master of masters of all trades. How so ever sincere his advise may be, it is one sided, and does not look into the vast spectrum of human experience.
Just because a father likes the vibes of his child´s kindergarten teacher, does not mean he should look for the job in the same premises.
It is easier to have a one night sex affair but it is not possible to have one night love affair. Few things leave impact for whole life, how so ever short their duration may be.
What Arun ji has done in Nepal, any entrepreneur sannyasin can do with the initial investment of private resources. To start a plant for Smoothies, one does not need to be an agro scientist.
If I have a choice, I would love to have the position in the management of Osho Pune….
When big generals are shopping for their pampers and Cialis, some low rank soldier can come forward to take over the command!
But alas, it is not possible. Korean Peninsula is not United States of America. Where a toned man without experience and with funny name can become the president and commander in chief!
Shantam, are you channelling all that stuff from Planet Plongo?
Beyond enlightenment you enter into nothingness.
Experience disappears, experiencer disappears.
Just pure nothingness remains, utter silence.
Perhaps this is the destiny of every human being, sooner or later to be achieved. We don’t know yet whether there is a white hole or not — there must be. Just as you enter beyond enlightenment into nothingness, there must be a possibility of coming out of nothingness back into form, back into existence — renewed, refreshed, luminous — on a totally different plane. Because nothing is destroyed, things can only go into a dormant state; things can go only into deep sleep. Then in the morning they wake up again. This is how the existence goes on. OMG …… this is really freaking … again we have to come on this message board for never ending discussion !!!!!
SCIFI, if you have a problem with, ‘again we have to come on this message board for never ending discussion !!!!!’ Why bother? You don’t appear to be discussing anything, more like broadcasting.
There is nothing to discuss … noTing @ all , noTing …. noTing @ all … @ all ….. Broadcasting sometimes due to overflow of Joy n Bliss. Just 4 fun.
Franks back.
Must have felt like this round that tomb after Jesus raised Lazarus from
the dead, or do I mean scene from the Walking Dead.
Hmm!!!
i guess.
i`m only on a day-pass from the bardo.
a run-in with a coupla black magicians could put me right back there.
the walking dead take one step at a time…
Not bad, although I wus expectin’ a bit more fire, bit more brimstone.