Dimensions Beyond The Known: Osho

Many suffer from disturbances which are called by western Doctors mental ill health. Many live with them all their lives. Some are visited from time to time.  And some it acts as a lifelong battle.

pre_enlightOsho suffered as he himself describes in ‘Dimensions Beyond The Known’ and summarised by Prem Paritosh (Sam) in his good book, ‘Life of Osho’ (below).  Osho came out of his horrendous period with what he saw as his enlightenment, but many, many do not reach such a stage. One would have been his lifelong companion, Vivek, who went finally back to London for treatment at some point after the Ranch, and arguably never recovered.

Osho during his pre-enlightenment crisis

SN believes that the PR exercises around these facts is undesirable, and an acquaintance with them can actually help disciples. Osho himself must have thought so by describing them, and allowing them to go into his early book.

Paritosh wrote::

“The abyss opens its mouth, the whole Existence yawns…” That was pretty much what had happened to Osho. What he later came to understand as ‘enlightenment’ was not the product of any ‘religious’ practice or way of life – in fact it took place quite outside any religious context at all. At the time he thought he was going mad…

Osho only talked about this once, in an early set of Hindi lectures, translated as ‘Dimensions Beyond The Known’. As a teenager, he said, he had been plunged into an intense adolescent crisis. Nothing seemed worthwhile any more. Nothing made sense. He tried to explore meditation, he hung out with sadhus, but none of it helped. “I doubted everything”, he said. “I could not accept anyone as my teacher…I did not find anyone whom I could call my master…I wanted to respect, but I could not. I could respect rivers, mountains and even stones, but not human beings.” He read everything he could lay his hands on in his home town, then at 19 went to the big city, to Jabalpur, to study philosophy at the university.

While he was a student there his confusion got worse and worse, until finally he had a complete nervous and mental breakdown.

“It was all darkness”, he said. “In every small matter there was doubt and nothing but doubt. Only questions and questions remained without any answer. In one respect I was as good as mad. I myself was afraid that anytime I might become mad. I was not able to sleep at night.

“Throughout the night and the day, questions and questions hovered around me. There was no answer to any question. I was in a deep sea, so to speak, without any boat or bank anywhere. Whatever boats had been there I had myself sunk or denied. There were many boats and many sailors, but I had myself refused to step into anyone else’s boat. I felt that it was better to drown by oneself rather than to step into someone else’s boat. If this was where life was to lead me, to drowning myself, then I felt that this drowning should also be accepted.”

“For one year”, he said, “it was almost impossible to know what was happening…Just to keep myself alive was a very difficult thing, because all appetite disappeared. I could not talk to anybody. In every other sentence I would forget what I was saying.” He had splitting headaches. He would run up to sixteen miles a day, “just to feel myself”, he said. Whole days were spent lying on the floor of his room counting from one up to one hundred and then back down again.

“My condition was one of utter darkness. It was as if I had fallen into a deep, dark well. In those days I had many times dreamed that I was falling and falling and going deeper into a bottomless well. And many times I awakened from a dream full of perspiration, sweating profusely, because the falling was endless, without any ground or place anywhere to rest my feet.

“Except for darkness and falling, nothing else remained, but slowly I accepted even that condition…”

“Slowly I accepted even that condition…” At some point he finally gave up. This was his introduction to that state of ‘let-go’ which was to play such a key role in his later thinking;- and from this moment, things started to happen very quickly.

“The past was disappearing, as if it had never belonged to me, as if I had read about it somewhere, as if I had dreamed about it, as if it was somebody else’s story I have heard and somebody told it to me. I was becoming loose from my past, I was being uprooted from my history, I was losing my autobiography…Mind was disappearing…It was difficult to catch hold of it, it was rushing farther and farther away…”

One night shortly afterwards the process reached its climax. Osho fell asleep early in the evening, in the little, box-like student’s room where he was living. Abruptly he woke at midnight.

“Suddenly it was there, the other reality, the separate reality, the really real, or whatsoever you want to call it – call it God, call it Truth, call it Dhamma, call it Tao, or whatsoever you will. It was nameless. But it was there – so opaque, so transparent, and yet so solid one could have touched it. It was almost suffocating me in that room. It was too much and I was not yet capable of absorbing it.”

He rushed out of the room and into the open air. He walked through the streets of Jabalpur until he came to a public garden. Finding it locked, he climbed over the railings and sat down under a tree he found there, a maulshree tree, to which he felt strongly drawn. There he spent the night, sitting in meditation, and whatever it was that he spent the rest of his life trying to communicate happened to him…settled, and stabilised.

Trying to describe this twenty-five years later it was still the negative aspects of the process he stressed. It was not that he found God, it was that he lost himself. God was what remained.

“A sort of emptiness, a void, came about of its own accord. Many questions circled around and around. But because there was no answer, they dropped down from exhaustion, so to speak, and died. I did not get the answers,

but the questions were destroyed…All matters on which questions could be asked became non-existent. Previously, there was only asking and asking. Thereafter, nothing like questioning remained.

“Now I have neither any questions nor any answers.”

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71 Responses to Dimensions Beyond The Known: Osho

  1. Kavita says:

    “Osho suffered as he himself describes in ‘Dimensions beyond The Known’ and summarised by Prem Paritosh (Sam) in his good book, ‘Life of Osho’ (below). Osho came out of his horrendous period with what he saw as his enlightenment, but many, many do not reach such a stage. One would have been his lifelong companion, Vivek, who went finally back to London for treatment at some point after the Ranch, and arguably never recovered.”

    I am somehow reminded of this Hindi saying: ek mayaan mein doe talwaarein nahin reh sakti! – There can’t be two swords in one sword-box!

  2. preetam says:

    Thank you, Parmartha, very, very interesting.

    What has been before…

    “Except for darkness and falling, nothing else remained, but slowly I accepted even that condition…”

    …is just preparation for ‘the big let go’. Kindly Existence gives fitting lessons. Truth has sensitivity to know by itself, how much preparation is needed for an individual and knows for sure the right moment and place by its deep love. Your moment is already booked, even place and date, so be ready – truth is coming.

    • preetam says:

      Osho has often talked about a right posed first question, important for this theme as well.

  3. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    “The Buddha describes how to proceed towards the higher levels of emptiness by emptying the mind from the contents of the progressively outdated levels. At the highest level of emptiness based on calm meditation, the Buddha observes that what remains is constituted by the non-vacuity of the “six sensory fields (5 + mind’s eye) which, conditioned by life, are based on the body itself”

    This implies that:
    “The method used, led to its extenuation, reverses into the opposite and from the observation of the ‘negative’ characters of the phenomenal reality (impermanence, unsatisfactory and lack of inherent existence) we come to meet the ‘positive’ characters of the unconditioned Reality (permanence) , bliss, reality), as on the other hand ecstasy / emptiness is reversed in multiplicity / fullness: being still ‘positions’ that move in the world of dualism, they reveal and turn into the opposite »
    Riccardo Venturini on Culasuññata Sutta (Little speech on emptiness) Majjhima-nikāya, 121.

    “What he later came to understand as ‘enlightenment’ was not the product of any ‘religious’ practice or way of life – in fact it took place quite outside any religious context at all. At the time he thought he was going mad”. (Paritosh)

    Is there any context in India that can be considered non-religious?
    Or, in other words, can be it distinguished from the mundane context?
    Was Raji’s grandfather religious?
    Was His first love for the girl religious?
    Was mundane the pain for the people He loved when they died?
    Were all the books He read in those years all mundane?
    The three babas He knew were worldly friendships?

    “Therefore, oh Ānanda, you must exercise this way: I will obtain a stable home in the most pure, supreme emptiness”. Buddha

    About the “pain” of Vivek and in case there was nothing wrong with her Skandhas I can not exclude that it was of the same nature as that of Raji, but with the choice to express a responsibility-testimony different from that of Ananda.

    After all, disciples do not suffer a little bit of the same squint, between the finger and the moon?


  4. shantam prem says:

    Sw. Veet, do you get sometimes the longing to be with some living Buddha or living Osho around and create your own notes from the rivering of life happening in that atmosphere?

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      No, for that, to me you are enough.

      I sit on the bank and listen to your notes, while you swim against the current.

  5. Parmartha says:

    Paritosh intimates that Osho simply thought he was going mad. I am not 100% sure of this. It is simply his impression from reading the ‘Dimensions’.

    I suppose there must be those who consider that ‘destroying the ego’ is the main thing before enlightenment, before becoming a non-person, and just a vehicle for Source, etc.

    Maybe for some the mental anguish of giving up the ego gives unbelievable mental suffering. But whether one is ‘aware’ that that is happening at the time, or just overwhelming mental anguish, might be a moot point?

    Clearly, many people suffer mental illness for their whole lives, and have periods when they feel more free of the anguish than at others. But whether such persons themselves have some kind of awareness – that the ego is being challenged to divorce – would seem to me to be doubtful.

    • preetam says:

      Their mental suffering arises from our unbelievable ignorance, how unconscious humanity is treating itself and continues to follow the violent ideas of fascism.

  6. Parmartha says:

    Vivek did her job unbelievably well for many years.

    After the World Tour my impression was she had some kind of breakdown, and also her personal life may have been confusing around Jayesh.

    It is, though, a surprise that someone who had lived around someone like Osho for so many years still had what appeared to be many attachments.

    • shantam prem says:

      Human mind has created certain kind of myths about the ancient religious giants; this mind feels vindicated, Osho is only an Acharya because he was taking normal medicines for illnesses.

      Those who became disciples have the tendency to create different kind of myths around their almighty, all powerful, omnipresent Osho.

      In my not so humble opinion, Osho. being the master of intelligence, has never guaranteed that crows will become swans by living close to him.

      This is one reason i wish to suggest, don´t waste precious life about stories of this or that departed Buddha, find someone on this planet and see how much is the essence and how much is the promotion.

      • sw. veet (francesco) says:

        It would seem dialectic, Shantam, between an ordinary or extraordinary opinion about Osho.

        As already said, if the process was not hooked with something deeper and different in nature than that of ideas it would be a boring game and it would have been exhausted years ago.

        You, paternalistically, place yourself above the thesis/antithesis game, preferring to play the ‘young ornithologist’ one.

        The paradox is that while not so humbly you call “parrot” who, like me, has not been with a living master, with the same criterion you should call “swans” those that you often honour for the long belonging to the Sannyas movement, who are the ones bothered by your caw about the material inheritance of the Master.

        This would be honourable if you did it with the prospect of grasping subtle aspects implicit in the betrayal of who, eventually, privileging the Zorba, has mystified His vision, confusing, depriving, delaying people about the possibility of enjoying a place like the asharam/commune/resort.

        Ah, it’s true, you do not do it for the new parrots…and the swans do not need to go back there – who’s left?

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      “It is, though, a surprise that someone who had lived around someone like Osho for so many years still had what appeared to be many attachments.”

      Parmartha, do you mean “attachments” to Osho, Jayesh or both?
      In case the attachment was for the first one, it would not surprise me that it could have something to do with gratitude, and with related themes such as feeling worthy of what was received.

      • Tan says:

        Attachment? What are you talking about, guys?
        We all are here in SN, after decades of Osho’s been gone, doing what? Are we attached to Osho? Why can’t we let it go?
        And most of us just had a glimpse of the man! What about Vivek, 24/7?
        Sod off, guys!

        • sw. veet (francesco) says:

          I like you, Tan, when you become talkative.
          I thought you were attached to your style dry, cold, fulminating, suitable for judgments.

          • Tan says:

            Veet, your judgment is not right, there is no style in my writing, just a lack of the English language. Cheers!

        • Kavita says:

          Tan, very good points & also, thanks for the reminder.

        • Tan says:

          I wonder if there is any woman as moderator in SN. I guess not. It would be interesting, somebody there who can understand love. Cheers!

      • Parmartha says:

        She seemed to be trapped within the attachments to Jayesh.

  7. Kavita says:

    Guess she did take a big jump by having a relationship with Jayesh, so she did try to detach from Osho. We can go on & on but no one can change what happened.

    • swamishanti says:

      Apparently, Vivek also dated Amrito for a while on the Ranch, so Jayesh wasn’t her only lover after Osho. This I remember from one of the books from the Lao-Tzu house crew.

      One got the impression that Osho had told Vivek to go and date other men and was himself uninterested in sex.

      • Parmartha says:

        Vivek did have relationships and was encouraged by Osho to do so.

      • Bong says:

        Bong still wants to bonk, occasionally.

        At what stage did Osho become uninterested in sex?

        A side-effect of his illnesses or medications or gradual progression?

        • swamishanti says:

          Osho became surrounded by young women sometime in the early 70s in his Woodlands apartment in Bombay. Most of them would have wanted to have some fun with him and I guess he granted a few lucky ones their wish.

          There were many women present there who never were given the opportunity, and many who would never would have believed that Osho was sleeping with anyone, except for perhaps Vivek. Ma Satya Bharti was one such example, who wrote in one of her positive sannyas books, recalling that there was one disappointed young woman at Woodlands who was asking Osho, “Why won’t you have sex with me?” and Osho told her to just go and make up any old story and tell people that they had had sex.

          He himself said on the Ranch that he had never been celibate but he was now.

          Remember on the Ranch Osho had his Olympic-size swimming pool and his little scooter his close disciples had bought for him. He had had enough of sex by this point and I heard it on the grapevine that no girls were being sneaked into his bedroom in LaoTzu house.

          Also, I remember Tim Guest’s recollection of one of Sheela’ tapes that had emerged (she had bugged his room on the Ranch) about an argument between Osho and Vivek. Vivek was upset and shouting at Osho, “You never make love with me anymore!” and she threw a plate at him. “Shut up, woman, I’m trying to watch the television”, came Osho’s reply.

          • shantam prem says:

            It seems junior Rajneesh is living the lifestyle of Papa Rajneesh!

            • shantam prem says:

              It won´t affect my devotion for late master whether he was making love or tickling ‘hairy cats’ with his long beard, but when someone writes it as a fact I doubt the intention and intelligence of such people.

            • swamishanti says:

              Well, not really, no.
              If the reports from those who left the Mexican commune are accurate, Ozen had people inviting girls on facebook to come and sleep with him, and he was also very possessive of one girl who left (who didn’t want to sleep with him?) and very much bothered about her leaving – this is very different from Osho’s style.

              Also there was the revenge porn – also seems highly unlikely Osho would ever do such things.

              I mean how many complaints of a sexual nature from women Osho ever had? Zero.

              • shantam prem says:

                My point is that Osho as Bhagwan or Acharya sleeping with women, and that too disciples, is highly unlikely.

                That his lust was sublimated by the high-end cars is a clear psychological fact, and his penchant for flattery from rich, white disciples became the cause of his work´s downfall.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Shantam, why should Osho/Bhagwan/Acharya not have been with women if he was eventually with Vivek? Not that I could care less, one way or the other.

                  “that his lust was sublimated by the high-end cars” is mere uninformed speculation, nothing like “a clear psychological fact”.

                  And “his penchant for flattery from rich, white disciples became the cause of his work´s downfall” is just your habitually obsessive personal prejudice.

                • shantam prem says:

                  Satyadeva, you are one sound investor who follows the maxim, never put all the eggs in one basket. Invest little with Osho, little bit more with Barry long, have some saving account with Ms. Meera and so on.

                  My perceptions cannot be same as yours, I have invested only and only at Neo-Sannyas and its founder. Consumers and investors see things not with the same or similar glasses!

                • satyadeva says:

                  Shantam, you are hereby awarded the Gold Medal for Devious Ways to Avoid Difficult Questions.

                  I’m certain, therefore, that your days of meagre employment are about to come to an end, as shortly you will be besieged by the more stupid politicians of all hues, eager for you to train them in deceiving others (and themselves).

                • Kavita says:

                  Yes, SD, Shantam’s Master, Rajneesh Jain, was a true patriot like himself & as the Indian National pledge opens with a declaration: “All Indians are my brothers & sisters….”!

                • Parmartha says:

                  Like other so-called devotees, young Shantam can’t basically feel easy with a master/teacher who is like them, especially in experience of life.

                  They therefore project some kind of ‘pure’ being, which is a nonsense.

              • dhyanraj says:

                finally all the facts have been exposed on ozen’s new website about all the false allegations now repeated here.
                everyone can read and see the lies exposed – and of particular interest are the voice recordings from dao and brindis


              • Parmartha says:

                The reports about Ozen are not at all accurate in my view, but either way, people have a right to defend themselves against such allegations.
                There is a website that does this called:

          • Kusum says:

            Sometimes I wonder if enlightened humans need sex or not. As their sexual energy is supposed to be converted into enlightenment (whatever that state means). Has Osho spoken about this?

            P.S: I mean physical sex.

            • sw. veet (francesco) says:

              I think he spoke ‘only’ about that, explaining the difference between “going around in a circle” and enjoying “peaks and valleys”.

          • Tan says:

            Those tapes really exist? I mean the one where Vivek throws a plate on him? Where is it? Is it public? Cheers!

            • swamishanti says:

              I don’t know where Tim Guest, author of ‘My Life in Orange’, read the story of that tape.

              Sheela did have a recording operation on the Ranch and did make many tapes, and personally I don’t doubt that particular story, but the problem is that Sheela was also a pathological liar and was said to be manipulating, editing or splicing some of the recordings, to suit her own needs.

              She also destroyed a whole discourse tape where Osho talked about abuse of power.

              She was said to be jealous of Vivek and organised her attempted murder, which failed, and which I believe she was never prosecuted for, as well as the attempted murder of Amrito, which also failed. Typically Indian.

              Someone else may know where the story of that tape comes from.

              • Tan says:

                SS, I don’t know if you noticed, but there is an undercurrent ‘thing’ around to make Vivek appear a very common woman, who begs for sex, is mentally ill, and was having sex with the men of Osho’s inner circle.

                This is very unfair and farther from the truth.
                Could the moderators stop all those gossips? A bit of respect would be good!
                This is worse than black magic!
                Let’s stop denigrating her memory.
                She doesn’t deserve it!

                • swamishanti says:

                  I don’t see Vivek as being portrayed here as you suggest.

                  Not that there is anything wrong with a “common” woman, or asking for sex, but I think the recording mentioned Vivek actually states, “You never make love with me anymore.”

                  We don’t know if the story is true, but to me it just sounds like the little domestic argument of an ordinary couple who had been living together for over ten years.

                  And Vikek did say that Osho was just an ordinary man. She did bow down to him in Buddha Hall and was devoted to him but also saw his human side.

                  Osho also said he was just an ordinary man, but it is true that he did tell Vivek to just go and have relationships with other men. Which she accepted.

                • Tan says:

                  To be ordinary is different than to be common. (Maybe somebody with English as mother tongue can help?).

                  Again, you’ve just heard things to be said – where all those gossips come from? Sheela’s tapes?

                • swamishanti says:

                  Ma Satya Bharti, after she left the Ranch and dropped sannyas, recalls a telephone conversation she had with Deeksha, the Italian Ma who also left the Ranch and grew disillusioned with Sannyas, who told her that she had once witnessed Osho beating Vivek.

                  Now, we don’t know if the story is true, or what would have provoked Osho to do this, but if true, again it sounds like another tiff between a couple.

                  I remember Osho saying many times that in India, if a husband stops beating his wife everyone knows that he has stopped loving her.

                  It is acceptable in India for a man to beat his wife, and I believe it even states somewhere in the Rig Veda or one of the other Vedas, that is ok for a husband to beat his wife.

                  So we don’t know if the account is true, or if so, what context it happened in.

                • Tan says:

                  Thanks, SS.
                  Much appreciate your information. Now, I know more or less where all this comes from.
                  Cheers! XXX

      • Kavita says:

        Ya, probably she did, but with Jayesh it seems she was often outside (travelling with Jayesh) Osho’s physical buddhafield & was in her own buddhafield when Jayesh was out for work!

  8. Levina says:

    Remembering the book, “Daughter Of Fire”, by Irena Tweedie, which I must have read about 5 times. I found it so intriguing and helpful because in her day-to-day diary she describes in detail how it is to be so close to her Master, Bai Sahib, who lived in India. I found it helpful cause she so well describes all the facets of heaven and hell and the ‘burning” she goes through in those 10 years she was with him.

    At the first time I read it, it destroyed the myth and belief I had that the spiritual path is all heaven, and when the equal opposite hell comes around, there must be “something terribly wrong”. The judgement played heavier than the thing itself!

    Also what she went through being so close to a master I can imagine that for Nirvano it must have been a similar thing, but I don’t think she talked about it! The way Irina Tweedie describes the rejections she had to endure and in the end his illness and death, speaks of utter devastation. She wanted to kill herself before Bai Sahib would die, she couldn’t imagine living without him. In the end, she didn’t, and as she writes after his death, she experienced him much stronger than in life.

    I’m not even touching what I want to say, but reading her book gave me courage to go on, and a road map at he same time!

  9. shantam prem says:

    When we are discussing Osho´s so-called sex life, I remember one answer from UG Krishnamurti. I think the answer is very relevant.

    As an Indian, and by chance having some interest in religion and spirituality, I am still very proud of the collective contribution of J, O and UG. UG has taken that enlightenment thing as biochemical changes in the brain and nervous system whose impact on the psychology and physiology is immense.

    It seems another way of saying, as one hears from Osho, the bond between body and spirit gets gulf of distance during that great moment.

    As I remember, the impressions of reading UG years ago, he has said, “Even if I want to have sex, I cannot. Body is not functioning any more in its usual order, and also there is no want.”

    So my feeling is that state of Osho which he got on 21st March, 1952, has the similar effect.

    • satyadeva says:

      UG’s answer may well be “very relevant” – to him! However, going by the facts of the experience of various enlightened people the effect upon their systems seems varied, with some continuing a normal sexual life while others become celibate. Ie ‘no sex, please, I’m enlightened’ are inappropriate words to project on to such a person.

      Are you aware, btw, Shantam, that J. Krishnamurti had an active sexual relationship for many years that he kept a secret through fear of public condemnation?

      • swamishanti says:

        Sexual energy from enlightened ones may also be useful for spiritual growth.

        I remember a lady recalling on this site once how Maitreya Ishwara told her over lunch:
        “If you have sex with me, you can get enlightened.”

        Seems like a good chat-up line to me.

        • Kavita says:

          Maybe if the seeker needs, they can use all/any kind of energy of the enlightened ones, it depends if the seeker is interested in spiritual growth at all or just a physical spiritual commune facility.

  10. shantam prem says:

    “If you have sex with me, you can get enlightened.”
    This is one sentence spoken down the ages by great religious preachers. Nothing wrong in it. Women have always believed best of them is their heart and sexual organs. It is not more than 100 years when women folks got voting rights and right of university education, thanks to winds of mind evolution started in the West by the brainy among the common masses.

    Spiritual people have easy access to women´s sexual loyalty, they just have to formulate like this:
    Woman´s first chakra is like fertile earth. What is implanted in the earth grows accordingly. You can implant grass for animals, that is when first chakra meets first chakra,; you can grow rice and wheat for humans, that is when fourth chakra energy is released in her vagina; and if you are blessed to have sex with seventh chakra people, you too can get enlightened in this very life. Otherwise, it is a long, tedious journey.

    • swamishanti says:

      I just looked into Maitreya’s book, ‘Unity’, for the first time in over ten years and came across this:

      “Everyone can benefit from tantric exercises but rarely do they transform sex energy into enlightenment. More often tantra is just a pleasant experience on the spiritual journey.

      Women do become enlightened through tantra but they require a partner who is more conscious than they are…

      Men and women in the first stage of awakening may be celibate, as they need the sex energy to help the opening to the next level.
      Second stage men and women sometimes enjoy sex, as do fully enlightened men and women.
      Now the journey is over, the kundalini has done its work in opening the crown chakra, and tantra is unnecessary.
      Buddhas are fully aware and are loose and natural with sex.
      However, they often remain celibate because the grosser energy of sex brings them into the physical body, and they are already enjoying a more refined ecstasy.
      Enlightened ones enjoy the ultimate inner tantra, the penetration of love by awareness, and the embracing of awareness by love.”

      (Excepts from ‘Inner Tantra’)

  11. Lokesh says:

    Before I met Osho in 1974, I was undergoing a psychological crisis, brought on by injesting too much psychedelic drugs. One aspect of this crisis had to do with sex. I can recall at the time being impressed by a book called ‘Secrets of the Golden Flower’. The book was based on conserving one’s sexual juices in order to build a body that could withstand death’s destructive impact and create a kind of immortality. My brain took all this esoteric information on board and left me in a somewhat confused state.

    I travelled to Pune with all those ideas rattling in my mind. It took me about a year to sort myself out, with much help from Osho. I am quite sure Osho had a sex life, although perhaps not a very energetic one. He was not a very physical man. What I find myself asking is what difference does that make to me? Answer, no difference.

    Historically, many enlightened men fathered children. It all depends on the individual. Being unenlightened as we are, I see no reason to think too much about it. If you enjoy sex, go for it. If you prefer to sublimate your sexual energies and channel those energies into another creative form, go for it. But for fuck’s sake, don’t sit on your sexual energies, because that will create problems in your life.

    I find that people who have a need to talk overmuch about sex simply are not getting enough of the real thing.

    • shantam prem says:

      “I find that people who have a need to talk overmuch about sex simply are not getting enough of the real thing.”

      With this principle born out of self-taught psychology, one can say, among the contemporaries, Sai Baba has more sex, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi has more sex, J. Krishnamurti has active sex life, they felt no need to talk too about sex. And Osho? One can hear Him talking world´s filthiest jokes!

      • satyadeva says:

        Shantam, your argument is irrelevant, as Lokesh’s point was re talking a lot about sex, not keeping quiet about it.

        Anyway, you’re on shaky ground quoting masters’ habits. Eg, re J. Krishnamurti, I take it you haven’t bothered to read my post of yesterday, 7.02pm?

        And haven’t you heard of the ‘homosexual paedophile’-type allegations about Sai Baba?

      • sw. veet (francesco) says:

        If I well interpret what SD writes, it is that your talking a lot, Shantam, does not exclude your reticence.


        • sw. veet (francesco) says:

          Reticence: reserve, restraint, inhibition, diffidence, shyness, unresponsiveness, quietness, taciturnity, secretiveness.

          Referred to Shantam, who speaks a lot about “Resort”, a secret plan of the “crows” to drive away “swans” and “parrots”.

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      Dear Lokesh, in ’74 I was in elementary school but 10 years later I discovered that there was a place in America of ecstatic people gathered around a man smiling behind sunglasses; I was touched.

      I saw the video of Sw. Rashid Maxwell linked on SN (24 February, 2018 at 9:54 pm) where he shares the tears after reading ‘My Way: The Way of the White Clouds’, before meeting its author, live.

      If also for you what led to Osho was not a coincidence, while, for example, you were on a pilgrimage to the places of Meher Baba, but like Rashid you had a “parrot” phase (defined as the crackly voice of a “young ornithologist”), could you say that the love felt before was of a different nature from that one after the meeting with Him?

      • sw. veet (francesco) says:


        (defined as the crackly voice of a “young ornithologist”)

        I don’t know if the meaning I tried to express is preserved if I meant “parrot phase”: such definition would be how a crackly voice of a “young ornithologist” calls it.

      • Lokesh says:

        Veet enquires, “Could you say that the love felt before was of a different nature from that one after the meeting with Him?”

        No, I could not. I have always had a love element in my life. You can call it human or divine, but in the end it’s only love.

        I leave it to the poets to describe what love is. In an illusory world, love is perhaps the only thing that is real, it’s always there.

  12. shantam prem says:

    Turning points come when they come.
    Lokesh´s reminder last evening is quite a turning point for me.

    Not only I am going to drop expressing mundane spiritual thoughts through sexual imagination, also will be very, very careful not to attack with sarcasm. It means my answers will be very different than the usual impulsive reactions to Swami Anand Anubodh’s and Satyadeva´s direct style.

    God Bless You, fellow friends, and me too.

    No, I won´t write “Osho´s blessings”!

  13. shantam prem says:

    When swamis were giving head to Mas with their mala, I can imagine that was the only time bearded master through his locket having the taste of lust.

  14. Kavita says:

    “My perceptions cannot be same as yours, I have invested only and only at Neo-Sannyas and its founder. Consumers and investors see things not with the same or similar glasses!” (Shantam)

    “As I remember, the impressions of reading UG years ago” (Shantam)

    Now I am wondering if an investor can also be a consumer of the same founder too, & if an investor of one founder can also be a consumer of another founder too, & vice-versa!

  15. shantam prem says:

    Let me tell a small story about UG:

    It must be somewhere between 2004-2006. I was living in Switzerland, not because I got some job in the bank, insurance or pharmaceutical industry but because of one relation developed in the commune days.

    I feel it was one of the most bombastic step in the history of mankind when some genius inspires and promotes multi-cultural, multi-racial interpersonal relating. He was Osho and most probably he will remain the only one.

    During my Swiss stay, I found out UG is staying in Gstaad, the famous ski town for high society and international jet set. It is two hours by train from the city Berne, where I was living.

    It seems Existence really takes care of Indian spiritualists, this or that way, they always find rich patron who supports their lifestyle so that they can speak out their weird thoughts and philosophies.

    One day, I wrote a letter to him and posted it without address, name and city only. As I try to remember, punchline was, “I cannot think about writing letter to some Bush or Blair and get the longing to visit them, but surely I would like to visit you.
    My name is Shantam Prem, I am an Osho disciple and presently live in Berne.”

    Interestingly, few days later I got a letter from his address: “UG was reading your letter and we were laughing. You can phone us before your arrival.”
    I phoned. I think elderly man himself picked up the phone. I reminded him about my letter. He said, “Yes, I remember that letter”, and then I hear some noises from behind and a lady takes over the phone.

    Few minutes later, during that short phone call, some deeper feeling from within emerged with the expressions, “No, I don´t want to visit anyone else after Osho. If Osho´s presence and his commune has not made me complete, let it be.”

    Letter too went in the box of recycling papers.

  16. Kavita says:

    So, Shantam, you are saying since you didn’t meet him you are not UG’s investor/consumer. What about you reading his books &a watching his videos, can you enlighten us?

  17. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Your “let it be” sounds so much as an “I gave up”, Shantam, if it is true that you should feel His presence only in the place where the interracial and intercultural heart of the planet was beating years ago.

  18. shantam prem says:

    J. Krishnamurti I was reading before Osho. UG was a fresh breeze because of his disruptive style.

    My reverence and love for Osho is not because of his oratory and being high calibre wordsmith but Sir Osho took the challenge to create a world based on his words. That is why I treat those disciples as bloody assholes who changed the creation of the creator in a very, very bad way.

    As far as literature is concerned, such literature has lost its shelf value or recommended only for middle-aged aunties whose husbands are busy chasing money and secretaries, and clerks in the banks who could not become investment bankers.

    After my only phone-call with UG I have not read any paragraph written by him. For my spiritual hunger, I feed me Sikh music and Osho talks. They give temporary relief, just like watching stand-up comedies.

    I am sure you are also watching Indian stand-up comedies at youtube. Remember your hearty laughter, samosas and chai and company of friends who were sincere and intelligent enough to grind Osho in their own style of comedy. Our friend Shashwat was one such hilarious seeker who will make us roll on the floor with his style of Sheela/Osho dialogues.

    In essence, spiritual literature is like porn stories. They affect and make brain relax. Real love is joy and challenge as living family and alive communities.

  19. Kavita says:

    Shantam, you say, “After my only phone-call with UG I have not read any paragraph written by him.”
    But I remember discussing reading Mahesh Bhatt’s book, I somehow take that as our consumerism.

    “In essence, spiritual literature is like porn stories. They affect and make brain relax. Real love is joy and challenge as living family and alive communities.”
    Somehow in reality I feel real love can’t only be joy, it has more or less equal ratio of pain too.

    There is mostly not a day when Shashwat days & commune days don’t come to my mind, but surely the frequency has reduced. Guess we are where & how we ought to be! Frankly, I am now kinda enjoying our separation days as much!

  20. Lokesh says:

    Shantam says, “When swamis were giving head to Mas with their mala”, etc. This is the sort of thing I am talking about. Shantam, you talk about sex a lot and never in a sophisticated manner, more adolescent. Does not exactly put you in a very favourable light as far as women readers are concerned. Your rap would not even go down well at a poker table. Very trite, baba.

    Perhaps you might like to look at that and lend a little respect to SN’s female readers and posters, otherwise you look like a chump. Okay once in a while, but as a constant it’s a turn-off.

  21. shantam prem says:

    Thanks, Lokesh, for the reminder, I will keep in mind to refine and make me mature for the sake of my own satisfaction and contentment.