My Messge to Pune

HAPPY YULETIDE to all our bloggers

Dhyan Hareesh (Madhukar Thompson)  was a sannyasin who some of us knew. He was a good cartoonist, with an independent bent of mind.  He died when drivng his motorbike  in an accident in India in 2011. It was a tragedy.  He was in love with advaita vedanta.

Maadhukar records in his book ‘A Seeker’s Quest for Enlightenment’ an answer from Ramesh Balshekar to the question, How do you feel about people who come to you from the Osho ashram in Poona?

020-Hareesh1

Hareesh

Ramesh says: What do I feel about them. Nothing. Whether they come to visit me from Poona or from Switzerland1 From Poona, from Lucknow, from Kerala – makes no difference to me.

Question: do you have any message for those people form Poona?

Ramesh:  Do I have a message? Certainly! A very simple message: if you are able to accept that  everything happens according to the will of God, then you will be a happier person. That is the message.

BUT it is not in your hands as to whether you are able to accept this or not. This is what the Americans call the bottom line. Is it your will or God’s will? IT is God’s will!  That’s the bottom line.

 

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124 Responses to My Messge to Pune

  1. frank says:

    Welcome to midnight mass at St Sannyas of the Underclass, where we have left undone those things which we ought to have done and we have done those things which we ought not to have done, so let us take a moment of quiet meditation as to why we are all here (because we are not all there).

    And let us pray, too, for the guruless who have no ashram for where to lay their head and find themselves out on the streetless street where they are defenceless against the robbing and abuse of any random passing DIY satsang teacher.

    Happy Superconscious New Year.

  2. Kavita says:

    Happy Sexmas and a superconscious new year! Love.

  3. Lokesh says:

    I am surprised to hear Madhukar is dead. I had not heard that. We were not friends but I saw him around on Ibiza for some years, during the summer season. My most vivid memory of Madhukar is him overtaking me on a road at 120kmph a hundred metres from a road junction.

    • frank says:

      That`s a typical Advaita Vedanta practice, of course.
      The road junction was obviously an illusory happening arising in dualistic space-time.

      Ramana Maharshi was a boy racer too, I once saw him taking a blind corner on the Deolali highway on a hotrodded bullock cart at at least 8 mph whilst smoking a bidi, giving a traffic cop the finger and proclaiming, “Thou art twat.”

      The masters are not here to fulfil your expectations of how an enlightened one should behave, you know.

    • sannyasnews says:

      This is his obituary Lokesh, if you were really in doubt!
      https://www.oshonews.com/2011/05/26/dhyan-hareesh-madhukar/

  4. shantam prem says:

    In God We Trust
    Or we Trust
    Late A, B, C…!

  5. frank says:

    Ramesh was a banker at State Bank of India for his working life, wasn’t he?
    I wonder where he got his ideas from.

  6. shantam prem says:

    Advaita, philosophy of non duality!
    Maybe it means, your money is my money. After all, we are one. Indian power elites follow Advaita from the core of their heart.

    Let me share one psychological trait of Indian spiritual elites.
    They are all ‘Rana Sahib’ when dealing with westerns. They will answer gracefully, will be extra courteous because foreigners must carry the impression Indians offer warm hospitality. Deep down they have no regard for such fickle-minded people. For them, western people are ‘bacche’ (kids) for deep spiritual search. This aspect they tell only to their closest Indian confidants.

    Matter of the fact is, there is a gulf of cultural divide. If there is a meeting it is solely for transaction purposes.

    • Lokesh says:

      Shantam, you are expressing a very cynical point of view. I don’t see you as an authority on the matter and I doubt your statement is based on life experience. Tell me three spiritual teachers you have spent time with in India for whom western people are viewed as ‘bacche’ (kids) for deep spiritual search.

      Your whole East/West dichotomy number is an anachronism that you hold on to for, I suspect, totally personal reasons. Could it be the case that unconsciously you hold a grudge against westerners? After all, you work and live in a highly organised western society where you perhaps feel looked down upon by people who regard you as a foreign nobody.

      By constantly referring to how superior Indians are in all matters spiritual you are maybe bolstering a part of yourself that feels downtrodden. As in, ‘I might be a failure in the material world but I am something special in the inner world because I’m a fucking Indian and you aren’t and never will be.’ It’s really bullshit that you are speaking on that level. As they used to say in the old days, “Drop it, Swami.”

      • shantam prem says:

        Lokesh dear, who is the one other than me on this site who has exposed holes in religious business developed by Indians?
        And drop this idea that I am looked down by the westerns.

        Surely, for purely linguistic reasons, I will remain square ball in the round hole but culturally and socially I am well connected and respected. I have not felt a single time when someone has looked at me in a doubtful way. Can you imagine being only Indian among few hundred other Germans on naturist lakes?

        Whether in India or here, many people have told me, “You radiate energy of trust and reliability.” I am thankful to God for making me like this.

        • Lokesh says:

          Shantam, what you describe is purely on the surface. You do not know what is going on in your unconscious and you would be a fool to pretend you do, that is why it is called unconscious. What I am saying is that many of your comments come across as if you bear a grudge. I did not say that you are aware of that because I do not believe you are.

          It is easy to repeat the same thoughts and thus form an attitude, again an unconscious process. It is an unwholesome picture that you wish to present, very negative. I do not see why you would not wish to let go of such a stuck aspect of yourself. Or is it a case of being unable to teach an old dog new tricks?

    • Kavita says:

      “If there is a meeting it is solely for transaction purposes.”

      Seriously, what transactions did people like Punjaji/Balsekar have?

      • shantam prem says:

        As I know from the information of all these years, Punjaji looks like archetype Indian grand father, simple and warm-hearted who feels overwhelmed by the sudden praise.

        In that sense Osho is more calculative, modern day Sadgurus are ambitious entrepreneurs.

        People who flocked round Punjaji feel like gold diggers from the West. Their adoration was a transaction. Punjaji could see through childish cleverness, in one video he curses even the clever followers to go to hell.

        • Lokesh says:

          Shantam, once again you project your own limitations on someone you know of second-hand and paint a negative picture of westerners being gold-diggers.

          If I were you and someone pointed out such a characteristic I would stop for a moment to reflect and question my actions. You don’t. Instead you blunder on and on, blurting out any old shite that is in your confused head, showing little inclination to drop unnecessary baggage weighing you down, mistaking it for who you are.

          I’d say identification with the superficial and mundane is your main feature, something which is perfectly normal as far as most people are concerned. I wonder if you ever dream of a more light-filled dimension, unlike the dense reality you appear to inhabit, going by your comments here on SN, that is.

          I rest my case, knowing I am wasting my time trying to get through to you.

  7. Dominic says:

    The above picture is of one overly-pleased-with-himself sadsang teacher called Madhukar, still alive!

    Merry gossipsmas, may the farce be with you.

  8. Kavita says:

    Now is this Madhukar alive or dead? I am curious!

  9. sannyasnews says:

    Hareesh looked quite different before he matured into Madhukar.
    Have a good look at pic 2 on the obituary page.
    But extend your case and let’s see the ‘other’ Madhukar….

  10. Dee Dee says:

    I’m sorry but there seem to be two Madhukars.

    One who is very alive and giving satsang in 2014, 2015 and 2017

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w78frC7n4vk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LpBHhsZlV4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tek48Mo_cR4

    • swamishanti says:

      Perhaps it’s the ‘second coming’ of Madhukar.
      Jesus appeared to his disciples to have survived the crucifixion, he still had the holes in his hands.
      The early Christians had a difficult time. They were labelled a ‘cult’ by the Romans and fed to the lions in the Amphitheatre.

  11. swamishanti says:

    Happy Madhukarmas.

    Ramesh Balsekar didn’t believe in free will and taught that everything that happens is God’s will, an old Indian concept.

    This idea has been adopted by a couple of other western satsang-givers, Satyam Nadeen was one of them who got turned on by one of Ramesh’s books whilst in prison for supplying large quantities of ecstasy and claims enlightenment whilst incarcerated (I have a friend who was in a similar situation for years but no enlightenment for him. Funnily enough, there are several teachers now connected to Osho who spent time in prison for drug smuggling and claim enlightenment).

    ‘From Onions to Pearls’, Nadeen’s book, is a good read, he has adopted Balsekar’s teaching that we are all part of a divine programme. However, he questions reincarnation and karma and speculates that the “Source” creates past-life memories in people just for fun.

    Life is just a lottery with only a tiny amount of people awakening to see the whole picture whilst embodied in the matrix, it doesn’t matter because everyone else realises when death happens anyway.

    The problem with this idea is that the God would have to be a rather sick fellow to design such a violent and cruel world whilst keeping majority fast asleep with maya and giving just a few souls the awakening card.

    I wonder whether Ramesh Balsekar also believed in reincarnation and karma.

    He was wealthy, having being educated in England, and had a top-notch job. It will be easier to believe in these preprogramming ideas if you are wealthy and comfortable, especially if you are feeling inner peace and/or enlightenment.

    • dominic says:

      Life does seem to be a lottery, with not “only a tiny amount of people awakening to see the whole picture whilst embodied in the matrix”, but even a tiny amount receiving glimpses of it.

      Some people are born into relatively comfortable lives, others not so. Some are born genetically gifted with good looks, long health and high IQ, others not so much. From the human perspective, God does seem like a sicko, from God’s perspective it’s just a bit of fun!

      Does everyone ‘realise’ when they die anyway? It seems more probable to me than reincarnation. As the human wrapping is released, the life that animated it returns to source, and one’s ‘true nature’ gets revealed. Life on earth was merely a dream (or nightmare) and all is well again. It’s a nice idea, we shall see!

      • swamishanti says:

        So the God creates the illusory world and occasionally sends him/herself down as south Indians to help us wake up, oil our balls, bumfuck us and give us darshan.

        • dominic says:

          Yeah, he’s sathya sly baba!

          • frank says:

            Dom, Re “Life on earth was merely a dream (or nightmare) and all is well again. It’s a nice idea, we shall see!”

            William Blake, cockney mystic, seemed to go with something similar…

            Every Night & every Morn
            Some to Misery are Born
            Every Morn and every Night
            Some are Born to sweet delight
            Some are Born to sweet delight
            Some are Born to Endless Night
            We are led to Believe a Lie
            When we see not Thro the Eye
            Which was Born in a Night to perish in a Night
            When the Soul Slept in Beams of Light
            God Appears & God is Light
            To those poor Souls who dwell in Night
            But does a Human Form Display
            To those who Dwell in Realms of day.

            MOD:
            Frank, SHOULD THERE BE TWO REPEATED LINES, Some are Born to sweet delight?

  12. shantam prem says:

    Ramesh says: “What do I feel about them. Nothing. Whether they come to visit me from Poona or from Switzerland, from Poona, from Lucknow, from Kerala – makes no difference to me.”

    This is very interesting! Basically, a clear slap to those who are going to this and that with their spiritual begging bowl. “Please, add something so that my meditation flowers into Enlightenment without obstacles and delays.”

    As I have written earlier, out of politeness wise people may answer the questioner but they know quite well, these people will go to someone else the way they have come from somewhere else. Who feels anything for such outcomes?

    Since I look around different spiritual groups I feel immense respect for those who stick with their “intellectually underdeveloped” master therefore won´t even think about reading Osho or others in the market.

    Such stable, contented, non-greedy, emotional responses open door to Grace.

    • satyadeva says:

      It’s not necessarily anything other than what the man said, ie that it simply “makes no difference” to him where (or whom) anyone comes from. With no other evidence, you just add the interpretation that happens to suit you, Shantam, which I’m afraid is all too typical of how you operate here.

      You think you know what “wise people” ‘really think’, you pretend to yourself you know, but you’re merely projecting your own unconscious negative attitude, as Lokesh has suggested.

      As for your other statement that “Such stable, contented, non-greedy, emotional responses open door to Grace”, that’s more presumption on your part and is therefore at best contentious, at worst pretentious, condescending garbage, and also looks very much like an attempt to justify your own self-confessed laziness.

      • shantam prem says:

        Why not write sometime just on the contents of the string?
        Why suffocate others with your unwarranted corrections?
        Please, hit the ball and not the batsman!

        • satyadeva says:

          After all these years you still don’t understand what a discussion forum like this is about, Shantam. It’s about give and take, stating your views and getting responses. Having a go at someone for disagreeing with you and telling you where he/she thinks you’re wrong, mistaking that for an ‘assault’, complaining, essentially, that ‘it’s not fair’, seems rather childish, to put it mildly.

          On another level, proposing the antithesis of open dialogue is verging on a sort of authoritarian censorship, isn’t it? Which does your much-vaunted ‘democratic’ credentials no favours at all.

          If you have no adequate responses to others’ criticisms of what you say then it’s a sign that your views might, possibly, be misguided.

          Or, which seems to be the case, are you so insecure (and/or self-important) that you can’t possibly bear to accept that possibility, so you immediately dismiss it from your mind?

          Hasn’t your quite long life experience, notably all those years at the ashram, taught you anything at all about such fundamentals?

          • Lokesh says:

            SD says, “If you have no adequate responses to others’ criticisms of what you say then it’s a sign that your views might, possibly, be misguided.”

            That one is worth remembering. I can dig it. Simple and to the point.

            • shantam prem says:

              Intellectually, it is worthy sentence. From my side, I will say, “I don´t make movies for the critics but for audience.”

              Here at this site, let us say, when Lokesh criticises it has worth because he exposes his views and does not play secretive and doesn´t shy away from receiving right or wrong punches. This is humane way of evolution.

              Because I am allergic to unjust behaviour and believe in fair play, I feel offended by SD for his approach of protecting oneself and hitting others.

              He reminds me of a quotation: “Feed a slave and he will bite your finger. Beat him and he will lick your feet.”

              • satyadeva says:

                Shantam, I could go through your post and demolish it, bit by bit, but I have far better things to do and besides, the return would almost certainly be a poor investment of my time. So, briefly:

                The bottom line here is that you resent being criticised when you have no adequate response. Invoking “unjust behaviour” and “fair play” for, btw, thoroughly spurious reasons, is a red herring, a convenient smokescreen you use to rationalise feelings of anger, perhaps even humiliation.

                Not that you’re likely to admit or even recognise this humiliation, such is the degree of armour you’ve placed around your mind, which, I repeat, prevents you from seeing straight. Looks like sheer laziness, like too many of your posts.

  13. shantam prem says:

    I was checking Amazon to order this book. Availability of English titles is zero but in French one copy is available.
    Price: 228 euros!

  14. dominic says:

    I get the impression Ramesh is not so popular anymore. Having been relegated to third division because of scandal and limited intellectual repertoire.

    His variations on the theme, “If you are able to accept that everything happens according to the will of God, then you will be a happier person, but it is not in your hands as to whether you are able to accept this or not”, are all Catch-22s and no-win double-binds. Comforting for the lazy-ass slacker, demotivating for the ‘Yes, we can!’ seeker! It’s both ancient, ‘Everything is God’s will’, and modern, ‘Free will is an illusion’ (neuroscience).

    No surprise then, that he claimed it was God’s willy doing God’s will when he was brought to task for greed and sexual harassment.

    If you want to read more about the controversy surrounding him, you can’t do better than read Timothy Conway’s article… if you have the stamina!
    http://www.enlightened-spirituality.org/ramesh_balsekar.html

    • frank says:

      “Then the young western doctor asked Ramesh, “Do you have a mistress?” Ramesh responded, “No, no.” At that point Ramesh was lying.
      He went on to then say, “Each event is just a ‘happening’, a part of the body-mind mechanism’s programming, and the guru is not affected….”

      I guess this is the point at which Anand Yogi and all parodists just have to admit defeat and pick up their P45!

      “The testicles represent duality. The erect member represents oneness. Disciples should hold fast to oneness. It is God`s willy”.
      Rambone Balls-ache, author of ‘Nothing Ever Happened, I Never Touched Her, Honest’.

      • dominic says:

        As if he knew what was coming, Ramesh’s actual book titles were preparing his defence:
        ‘The Happening Of A Guru’
        ‘Sin And Guilt: Monstrosity Of Mind’
        ‘Who Cares?! The Unique Teachings Of R.B’
        ‘Pursue ‘Ha piness’ And Get Enlightened’
        ‘Consciousness Strikes’ (with a new foreword by Harvey Weinstein perhaps!).

    • swamishanti says:

      Apparently, Nisargadatta “told” Ramesh to start talking to people. That is according to Ramesh’s site anyway.

      Timothy Conway also doesn’t accept the other teacher. Ranjit Maharaj, although he was endorsed by Nisargadatta as a jnani in one of his sessions.

      Also, when Conway questioned Ramesh on sleeping with some of his female visitors, Ramesh apparently said, “It is just a cuddle, what is wrong with it?”

      And then told Timothy that Nisargadatta used to visit a prositute. According to David Godman, who spent a lot of time with Nisargadatta and Ramesh Balsekar, Niz used to be quite vulgar and crude in his Marathi talks, often giving sexual innuendoes or swearing.

      The translators were uncomfortable with translating these parts into English so they never made it into the books

      • swamishanti says:

        David Godman, “remembering Nisargadatta Maharaj” : http://davidgodman.org/interviews/nis2.shtml

      • frank says:

        I`d love to see the full transcripts of Maharaj`s talks. Sounds like a kind of Maharati ‘Derek and Clive’.

        Its also possible, then, that the story I heard about Bidi Baba, Rambone Ballsache and LBW Punjaji going on a foul-mouthed bender down the Bombay red light in search of the ultimate medicine was true.

        Several bhang lassis, a coupla kilos of pan and a few packs of ganesh bidis later, the trio woke up in a whorehouse. The Madam came in and asked, “Who`s paying?” Quickasaflash, Bidi said, “Nobody is paying as there is no one to pay”, and skipped out of the window like greased lightning.

        It is impressive to see how faithfully the disciple learns from the master! Have-a-go advaitists, listen and learn!

        • frank says:

          Of course, the real, unedited version was:

          “Fuck off, you old slag, each event is just a f…ing ‘happening’ arising in dualistic f…ing time/space, you c…!
          It`s all a part of the f…ing body-mind mechanism’s f…ing programming, and the f…ing guru is not f…ing affected, so no`one`s f…ing paying, right? You f…ing twat!”

      • dominic says:

        Good gossip, Shanti! I heard that too about Niz visiting prossies, from another source. Perhaps with the unedited talks, Lokesh reveres a guru who’s a dead ringer for Shantypants! (Just kidding guys.. kind of ;) )

  15. Kavita says:

    “As I know from the information of all these years, Punjaji looks like archetype Indian grand father, simple and warm-hearted who feels overwhelmed by the sudden praise.

    In that sense Osho is more calculative, modern day Sadgurus are ambitious entrepreneurs.

    People who flocked round Punjaji feel like gold-diggers from the West. Their adoration was a transaction. Punjaji could see through childish cleverness, in one video he curses even the clever followers to go to hell.”

    You sure have a ‘big brother/uncle image’ among sannyasins in the Poona commune!

    Since “you radiate energy of trust and reliability”, one more question:
    Are those many people who see this radiation in India & Germany & any other place in the world, gold-diggers too? You sure seem more than happy with their opinions of you!

    • Kavita says:

      PS:
      Btw, Shantam, I thought, “If there is a meeting it is solely for transaction purposes.”

      Seriously, what transactions did people like Punjaji/Balsekar have?

      I thought you would say something like, they were content with God’s Will/may have had a pension plan/knew to to live on a budget!

      Anyway, seems you were in your ‘Jallianwallah Bagh revenge mood’!

  16. Vijay says:

    That is why USA makes a lot of money by selling weapons to any nation and making wars everywhere. It is God’s will.

    • Lokesh says:

      Vijay, your powers of perception defy belief.

    • dominic says:

      Are we all agreed, God is a sicko? Are there any counter-arguments?

      • satyadeva says:

        Well, it certainly appears that way at times. But how about your own life, Dominic? Has it really been that bad?

        Maybe it’s our concepts of “God” that are the problem?

        • satyadeva says:

          Or rather, one of the problems.

          • frank says:

            Some say:
            The idea of “It’s all God’s will” is a medicine. People often get lots of suffering due to attachment to “I like this, I don’t like that.” Seeing everything as God or God’s will gives relief from that particular cause of suffering.

            You take medicine to cure a particular disease. If you instead just take the medicine constantly, the medicine itself causes a disease.

            “It’s all God’s plan” is like that.
            All teachings, all ideas, are also like that.

            • swamishanti says:

              God certainly is a sicko, if everything on this planet has been preprogrammed.

              Presumably that would mean that every movement of the planets and the solar system has also been set to affect life here on this world, as well as the lines individually found on the palms of the hands.

              The idea of perpetual cycles of light and darkness, where things evolve to a more loving and conscious way of living for a while and then disintegrate into war and violence again, with all the shit that goes with it, is a bit of a sick idea.

              If it means that we develop a more peaceful society for a while based on principles of love and spiritual evolution, with enlightenment as the highest value, but then it all gets overturned again and we end up fighting and torturing people and pulling people’s toenails out for a while until the next cycle.

              A constantly evolving theme for humans, that doesn’t involve cycles where everything gets knocked down again, would mean that humans would gradually evolve and their values change to more peaceful, loving ways of living, with the highest values being enlightenment and transcendence.

              Of course, all the enlightened ones would just disappear as their time would be up. Humans would have developed space travel and would travel the galaxy in our spaceships and help other, less advanced cultures.

            • satyadeva says:

              Like that post, Frank. It perhaps boils down to being pragmatic, applying some practicality to the situation.

              Perhaps ‘Whatever is, is’ might be also be useful for accepting the otherwise hard-to-accept, including efforts to change it if one is moved to.

              • frank says:

                Cheers, SD.
                You say:
                “‘Whatever is, is’ might be also be useful for accepting the otherwise hard-to-accept, including efforts to change it if one is moved to.”
                Then it is probably an appropriate medicine.

                If however, on my doorstep is an old dear who has been mugged and dying, I step over her and go for a beer, saying to myself, “Whatever is, is”, then it would most likely be inappropriate use of the `medicine`.

                Another example is ‘You create your own reality’.
                This can be helpful either in situations where one needs to take responsibility for one’s part in a situation. Or also as an encouragement to create something in life.
                On the other hand, if you take it as a set-in-stone philosophical or metaphysical truth, like a lot of nuagers and reincarnationalists, you end up with ludicrous ideas about how napalmed kids in Syria or babies with AIDS in Africa are somehow `responsible for their reality`.

                Words and ideas are tools.
                You can use a hammer to build a house or bash someone`s brains out.
                The hammer does not contain the truth, of itself.
                It`s the use that counts. The context.

                • Lokesh says:

                  God’s will? If Osho’s will is anything to go by its a bit of a mess. Can’t even be ascertained whether or not it is his will, because his signature might have been forged, which may very well be the case with God’s will also. I blame nobody because nobody makes mistakes and so there’s nobody to blame.

        • dominic says:

          It’s one of those perennial, evergreen conundrums, SD. I don’t have an answer. It does appear that way, whether you call it God, Brahman, Tao or anything. I suspect it can’t be resolved rationally, only by a ‘shift in consciousness’ (God willing, of course!).

      • swamishanti says:

        I remember talking to a stoned Indian restaurant owner who had a great place with chilled out vibes and a great garden which attracted lots of westerners. Can’t remember what the conversation was about but I remember he mentioned , “Oh yeah, all the bad people are going to get wiped out and all the good people are going to be left to party, can’t remember where I read that.”

        I wondered if he had read Maitreya Ishwara or some pamphlets of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

  17. satchit says:

    Interesting and funny interview of Madhukar (the real one) Thompson
    and U.G. Krishnamurti:

    https://gatelessgate.wordpress.com/tag/berthold-madhukar-thompson/

    • Parmartha says:

      Thanks, Satchit. This is a good interview.

      I notice that even this website where this good interview occurs still assumes that sannyasin Madhukar is still alive – but he has been dead these seven years.

      Those seeming few who knew him and knew of his death rejoiced somehow in his death on a motorcycle, which, according to Lokesh, he drove madly. However, SN discovered at the time that he died on a scooter!

      #I always liked his cartoons, but they also do not seem to be that well known.

    • shantam prem says:

      Aha! what a fresh breath to see the interview of UG!
      The man lived and died with moral high ground.

      • swamishanti says:

        Osho didn’t rate UG much.
        Surprising you rate him so highly when you are so much of one disciple/one master.

        “…only one thing has to be remembered: when you are fragile in your growth, people like U.G. Krishnamurti can destroy you. These people have missed their life, and now they are living in frustration. And in frustration people start behaving like women. They start breaking things, throwing things. That’s what U.G. Krishnamurti is doing.” (Osho)

        • Kavita says:

          Seems mostly one-disciple/one-master are the ones who read all masters but consider themselves virgin seekers!

          Imagine if UG was alive & heard someone talking about his moral high ground – probably would laugh it off!

          • shantam prem says:

            Can you also imagine opinions vary when someone is alive or dead? Will it come in your brain that I would use other adjective when UG was alive?

            For the dead, cynical UG, I stay with my adjective. He was the one making fun of the Ponzi schemes promoted by few in the race of World Teachers of last century.

            • shantam prem says:

              If Kavita was an Agony Aunty in some magazine, someone like me would have surely asked,
              “Aunty, I have a moral dilemma. I love my wife very much, still I watch Porn. Does it mean I am not faithful to my wife, I have committed adultery?”
              Curious how Aunty Kavita of sannyasnews answers!

              • Kavita says:

                To which Aunty Kavita will say, “Dear child Shantam, instead of watching Porn why don’t you experiment with your wife? Maybe you have better experience than watching Porn!”

                • shantam prem says:

                  5 star answer.
                  No doubt, sannyasins are better in advising than professional journalists and writers. This I write without sarcasm. Osho´s words and his people´s interactions opens something.

            • Kavita says:

              Same way can you take the OIF MANAGEMENT SERVICES?! Since Osho also died, if you remember!!!

        • shantam prem says:

          Swamishanti,
          When Osho was alive, things were different. Don´t you think? 30 years later, when great disciples of late Osho start massaging the feet of each and every one in the market one has to look life a bit differently.

          On my own I appreciate many people from different walks of life. Surely I appreciate the politics of Donald Trump from the very beginning.

          Liberals who wants to be the pubic hairs of Obama are also realising, the guy hungry for applause for rogue states like North Korea, Iran and Cuba destroyed the future world peace tremendously.

          As I know Sannyas cult is full with leftists and asocial kind of people, to hate Donald Trump is a majority issue. I will prefer to be expelled than to change my insight.

          This is what I call Osho´s grace. You drop the crowd and follow your own, if it is full with fashionable idiocy.

          PS:
          Suggested Reading: ‘The Rebel’

          • satyadeva says:

            “Surely I appreciate the politics of Donald Trump from the very beginning…
            This is what I call Osho´s grace. You drop the crowd and follow your own, if it is full with fashionable idiocy.”

            Well, Shantam, ok, you and Trump no doubt have much in common, fair enough.

            But “Osho’s grace”? That’s the best laugh I’ve had today! Thanks!

        • satchit says:

          Tell me, Swami Shanti:
          What counts more at the end of the day?
          The rating of the Master or your own intuition?

          • shantam prem says:

            Tell me, Swami Shanti,
            What is your master´s rating about Donald Trump and Jaggi Vasudev?
            Former is in the same position as Ronald Reagan, latter in the league of your master.

          • swamishanti says:

            The point was made because Shantam is always chastising others for visiting other masters or teachers.

  18. Parmartha says:

    I visited Ramesh and went to his satsangs for a week or so in Bombay in 2000. He seemed harmless enough to me, and had an avuncular, traditional presence.

    I am sure he was not trying to advertise himself as some kind of god, or someone who was perfect in some way.

    He looked to connect with people who came to see him, Leonard Cohen being one, and to see if there were ways he could help them in a non-prurient way. He certainly did not have sights on ‘using’ them in any way.

    I think a lot of criticism is made of teachers by people who never even went to see them, etc.

    And also based on a projection that they are somehow ‘tricking’ those who came/come to see them. It is just a sign of what we mental health professionals would call marginal paranoia.

    • dominic says:

      Large P,
      Ignoring damning evidence by people ‘entranced’ by gurus, we mental health professionals, from the University Of Life, would call significant credulity or more pointedly, being in denial.

      Leonard Cohen managed to swop out his long-time hard-core molesting Zen Teacher, Sasaki for Ramesh. On Sasaki…
      “They said he would tell them that sexual contact with a Zen master or roshi, like him, would help them attain new levels of “non-attachment,” one of Zen’s central objectives. If they resisted, they said, he used intimidation and threats of expulsion.”

      Ramesh’s own words…
      “Ramesh then pulled out a paper which had been placed next to him, and read a letter of apology which he had prepared before-hand: “If I have hurt you I apologise…But all this is only a happening and it does not concern me…You have created the problem. Now solve it…you have been asking me for hugs and whatever happened afterwards is your fault…I have nothing to do with it…It is you who are creating the problem.”
      A mental health professional would ‘wake up and smell the pathology’!

      Power corrupts. Perhaps Ramesh held back in earlier days but as he grew more popular and therefore wielded greater influence he succumbed to the temptation of exploiting others. Seems to be a familiar pattern with gurus.

      • Parmartha says:

        Did you ever actually meet Ramesh, Dominic?
        Maybe not. I am trying to restrict things to my own experience.
        I am not trying to say anything about Saaski so why bring him up?
        I am also not trying to say anything about Ramesh of a psychological nature. I spent a week with him, and thought he was okay and created a good atmosphere in his sanghas, and never saw anything ‘with my own eyes’ to condemn him.

        I AM saying something about a common mistake of the judgers of teachers, who seem to me often to be people who actually want perfection in their teachers, and then when they find them imperfect can’t stand it, and even make up stories about them. As Shiva did of Osho.
        And if Shiva was not paranoid, then you certainly don’t know much about the mental health world….

        • dominic says:

          “I am trying to restrict things to my own experience.”
          Why would you do that? (Are you a holocaust denier, because you weren’t there to experience it?).

          “I am not trying to say anything about Saaski so why bring him up?”
          I am not trying to say anything about Shiva so why bring him up?

          “I…never saw anything ‘with my own eyes’ to condemn him.”
          Strange! You mean he never openly hugged/shagged his female followers in your presence?!

          “I AM saying something about a common mistake of the judgers of teachers, who seem to me often to be people who actually want perfection in their teachers.”
          Is that what ‘they’ are actually saying? Are they asking for “perfection” (no such thing)? Or are they asking for a reasonable base line of integrity, trust, accountability, and to not exploit impressionable followers financially or sexually?

          Call me old-fashioned, but wouldn’t mental health professionals subscribe to a similar code of ethics?

          • Parmartha says:

            Silly argument, Dominic. You would not get far against a good barrister.

            I am just saying I did meet Balshakar, and wondered if you had?

            As I have said before, you seem to hold a sign up saying all teachers are bad, and the relationship between a teacher and a disciple is also in and of itself flawed.

            That seems a very flawed view to me.

            People can help other people along the way, and often such relationships are amongst the best that human being can have, as they are based upon a true generosity of spirit.

        • swamishanti says:

          Shiva irritated Osho enough by what he had written in his book, for him to ask his lawyers to sue him. He obviously didn`t feel that this book was ‘good publicity:

          “Shiva has written a book against me, full of lies. I have told the English sannyasins to sue him in court, because what he is saying is utter nonsense. And you can see the cunningness. In Poona, every evening I used to have a meeting for people who were taking sannyas. It was an open meeting—almost sixty, seventy, sometimes a hundred people would be present. One dozen people or maybe more would be initiated. And ten sannyasins were dancing as mediums to create a vibrant energy.

          And Shiva has written in his book that every night I need ten women, without making any reference to the fact that those ten women are mediums and they dance in an open place with one hundred people watching, a dozen people present to be initiated. He does not mention that; he simply mentions every night I need ten women.

          Can you see—can a person be more ugly? And he used to trust in me so much that he used to say that he can give his life—and this is what he is giving! And there are thousands of things which are absolutely wrong, fabrication, fiction, from his own mind.”

          Osho: The Path of the Mystic

          From an earlier discourse, I think before the book was published:
          “Somebody was asking me in a letter…because just a few days ago Shiva has written a letter: “Please forgive me. I have done everything wrong. I have said lies against you, and the burden of it all is so much it is killing me.”

          The other person was asking, “If Shiva comes back” — because this letter may be just the beginning of the camel cowhich ming back from Santa Fe — “would you give him the same position that he used to have, your bodyguard?”

          I said, “Certainly. I trust him.” ”

          Osho
          From Death to Deathlessness
          Chapter 6

  19. shantam prem says:

    Dominic says:
    26 December, 2017 at 2:48 pm
    “Are we all agreed, God is a sicko? Are there any counter-arguments?”

    Before I give some counter-arguments, may I ask how old are you, Dominic? As one can see, most of the posts of Dominic are in the lines of satirical prose style of faceless frank. In Dominic’s case, they are more cynical, as if it is a joy to rip off the socks of guys in the spiritual trade, and now even the God!

    Is there some standard definition about God? Don’t we all have some unique impression of our own with this three letter word?

    I won´t like to replace ‘God’ with ‘Godot’. In Indian languages we have plenty of words to describe the indescribable. Being a Sikh, I am more attuned with ‘WaheGuru’! Roughly translated, Wah means Wow, Waheguru means something like ‘Faceless, timeless, fearless, enmityless, eternal master whose glory is simply amazing’.

    • dominic says:

      Are you sure you’re not an identity thief, Shantam? I’ll tell you one thing, I wasn’t born yesterday!

      I think I strike a balance of fun (leela) and sober reflection (dharma). Can you show evidence of what you consider cynical? With UG as your new anti-guru Guru, you’d only be shooting yourself in the foot!

      There’s no need to list the thousand names of God. You seem quite happy for Wowguru to remain “faceless”, maybe next time you speak with the ‘simply amazing faceless Wow’, give him/her/it the third degree as well! ;)

  20. shantam prem says:

    Surely my time will come too, one thing I have learnt from the spiritual trade, one cannot rely upon western males as disciples.

    Because most of the Indian gurus never had a real life experience of West, so they became overwhelmed with the gentlemanly western male attention and got trapped in the mind net they were not aware about.

    Spiritual history of last century is obvious, cults where westerns became predominant fell like building with less cement, more sand…

    It does not mean Indians are better human beings, not at all. They are simply good customers for spiritual trade. It is ingrained in DNA. Indians will betray everybody but betraying master is rare. The obedience towards masters is out of this world.

    In my dim memory, during my only meeting with Sheela, she asked reverse question, “Do you think it is in our Indian culture to do something which is against master´s work?” I take this with a big pinch of salt but not entirely untrue.

    • satyadeva says:

      “Surely my time will come too…” – For what exactly, Shantam?

      Dreaming again of status, power, sex?

      Death, perhaps?

      • shantam prem says:

        Status, power, sex and Death…
        Very Scorpion issues!

        My feeling is most or all of us at sannyasnews commune will deal with them in a more straight and lightful way because we can make a joke about them.

        • satyadeva says:

          “Surely my time will come too…”

          Are you going to explain what you mean by this, Shantam?

          • shantam prem says:

            “Surely my time will come too…”
            It is a little joke on myself, on that lingering desire which also wants to play humble by pretending connected with higher consciousness.
            Wait for the day when I post my face with long white beard!

  21. satchit says:

    “BUT it is not in your hands as to whether you are able to accept this or not. This is what the Americans call the bottom line. Is it your will or God’s will? IT is God’s will! That’s the bottom line.”

    To say everything is God’s will is a device, nothing more and nothing less. By its very nature every device is a half-truth. Means in this case, it helps people to relax who are tense and identified with their doing. To create Truth from a half-truth does not work.

    • frank says:

      Satchit,
      Will a ‘device’ be convincing if the one for whom the device is devised for does not take it as truth, but only as half-truth?

      If you get out of literal-mindedness you can benefit from an idea or words without worrying about the ‘truth’ or not.

      ‘Devices’ are not just the fiefdom of so-called enlightened ones:
      A rose is not love itself, death is not literally a door and the world is not literally a stage.
      They are devices, literary/poetic devices!

    • preetam says:

      Or it asks to give our responsibility away onto God’s representative on Earth – such like British queen or Pope the South American. It also includes the message that you are not good enough to have your own will.

    • swamishanti says:

      Sure, Satchit, to say that everything is God’s will is a device, and a very good one at that. It will put you into a transcendental frame of mind, and help you to relax. “This so-called universe appears as a juggling, a picture show. To be happy, look upon it so.” (Vigyan Bhairav Tantra).

      But from what I have read of Ramesh, he certainly believes that in predetermination, and programming. It is not just a device that he uses.

      Actually, this is an ancient Indian idea that led to the justification of the Caste system, everything that moves is God’s will, and it`s all God Godding, playing all the parts.
      Only the Brahmin caste were allowed to read the Upanishads and the ancient wisdom of the tantras and other books. And always only the men, never the women.

      Nowadays, of course, anyone can read whatever is posted on the internet. The times they are a-changing.

      Whether this is true or not, it still means the God is a bit of a sicko, to put it mildly. The animal kingdom is always violent by its very nature, but to give bipedal animals complex brains, without much or any heart, can result in psychopathic tendencies, and the worst kind of activities and abominations would have been orchestrated and designed by the God.

      • satchit says:

        “Actually, this is an ancient Indian idea that led to the justification of the Caste system, everything that moves is God’s will, and it`s all God Godding, playing all the parts.”

        In the West too, not only in India, power was justified by God’s will. Look at your coins in U.K.!

        What’s written there still in the year 2017?
        ELIZABETH II . D. G.

        What does D. G. mean? It is Latin and means:
        Dei Gratia = by the grace of God.

        Funny, hm?

        • Kavita says:

          Somehow makes me think most of westerners, like Dominic, not different from any other Easterner who think that what is credited in the East/West is probably the bottom line!

      • dominic says:

        Everything is God’s will is an old idea. Today we say, “it is what it is”. Relaxation and acceptance might be one response, resignation and passivity could be another.

        As you say, it’s a great way of controlling the masses. Throw a little ‘karma’ into the mix and you have a dopey sedative that helps to maintain the status quo.

        Animals are instinctual. Humans evolved a sense of fairness and justice because it became beneficial for the survival of the group to work together. We look for it when we watch movies or read books. We want baddies to be punished and for good to triumph over evil. If movies were just random and there were no happy endings we wouldn’t feel satisfied or bother to watch.

        So I don’t know if God’s a sicko. It’s just that humans are (mostly) pre-selected for morality, it has evolutionary benefits, but God doesn’t give a shit about any of that!

  22. dominic says:

    I believe Madhukar (Hareesh) has been trying to communicate with us from the other side, about Ramesh being more literal than we imagined when he was pointing to the “bottom line”!

    • shantam prem says:

      Is there a story behind this childish banner?

      • dominic says:

        Don’t take it personally, Shantam, not everything is about you!
        After doing the rounds of enlightened ‘Nobodies (but I’m a bigger Nobody than anybody else)’, this was Madhukar’s final teaching and pointer! ;)

        • shantam prem says:

          Dominic, is this placard against Rajesh ji?
          The tiles on the floor look Indian.
          Under what compulsion someone will resort to such cheap gimmicks?

          • dominic says:

            I have no idea, Shantam. I took it as a generic warning, or as the Romans used to say: “Cave sordida senex sapiens”. The picture is from the earlier SN link.

  23. Dhanyam says:

    After the Ranch and before he moved to India, Madhukar lived in our community for a while, and Viha sold his books. We still have a few ($20 each).
    Please let me know if you want one.

  24. Lokesh says:

    I will have you all know that I am studying up on enlightenment and getting nowhere fast.

    Someone mentioned our old hobo friend Satyamitra who had a collection of milk bottles full of his own piss in an attic in the notorious Ashley Road squat. He did not like the cold winters and peed in bottles to save him getting out of his scratcher.

    I ran into him in the early 80s down in Kodai Canal. He was completely out of his mind on magic mushrooms and really chuffed about the puppy he’d just found in the bushes. I liked him. A real Australian eccentric, fun and gentle. I left Kodai the next day and never saw or heard of him again.

    • swamishanti says:

      The first time three of us tried magic mushrooms, we had come across a huge stash that someone had stored inside a large amethyst crystal. It was a large, shared house, and the owner of the crystal and the dried mushrooms being away at the time, we decided to make a pot of tea.

      After some time, one friend decided that nothing much was happening so he decided to scoff a few more. And then again, some more.

      As it turned out, just as the tea began to affect us and we started laughing, the fellow who had scoffed a huge amount lost control of what was happening and well and truly tripped out.

      He ended up reaching into my friend’s pet terrapin tank and ended up putting the poor thing in his mouth. He did not eat it, but the poor terrapin later died of shock.

      He reports to have no memory of any of it, not even hitting one of us over the head with a hockey stick, or trying to fly out the window.

      Crazy times.
      The moral of the story is:
      Wait till you come up before you eat more mushrooms.

    • sannyasnews says:

      Thanks Lokesh.
      Yes, we wonder once a year what ‘happened’ to Satyamitra!
      It’s good to know he was alive longer than we knew he was, which was in 1981.
      And yes, we do remember about the piss bottles!
      One wonders, maybe someone, somewhere, is reading this and can give us some more info.

  25. shantam prem says:

    Business of enlightenment is becoming bit sordid. Maybe in few years, books about Abnormal Psychology will have chapter about state of Enlightenment.

    While writing this, I remember my late father. Maybe I write an article about his spiritual state to understand the biochemistry. This article, a very personal chapter from my life, will also be an indication how seriously I take my intentions that courageous will be that Enlightened who challenges the scientific community to scan his brain. This will be true service to the cause of spirituality being a science for inner.

    This much I know for sure: five universities in the West are doing long-term studies over the biological and psychological effect of meditation and prayers. It is already established those who go regularly to churches have less chances to be depressingly sick. But this can be said for those too who participate regularly as fans at the football matches.

    • satyadeva says:

      Such studies of the effects of meditation etc. are old hat, Shantam, they were done decades ago, eg to prove the benefits of Maharishi’s TM.

      • shantam prem says:

        The meditation is not any more connected with the branded stuff of Indian cult leaders. It has become generic.

        As one of the trustees of Osho Foundation in case democratic set-up is established during my lifetime and old hats think about my services and passion, I will surely encourage independent researchers to check the effect of Osho active meditations.

        The biological, psychological and biochemical effect won´t be less than the jogging and inner peace will be as of long stay in retreats.

        But the stuff called enlightenment or Satori is a totally different ball game. They need to be researched, including the brains of Maharishi types during lifetime or post-demise; Western and Indian both.

  26. frank says:

    I smell foul play from that Napoleon of advaitic crime, Swami Madhumoriarty, Watson!

  27. Kavita says:

    I second ”I smell foul play from that Napoleon of advaitic crime, Swami Madhumoriarty, Watson! ” !