Osho spoke both for an against many many things with eloquence and persuavesiveness, and yet this was not his main work at all. It was the transmission of something beyond words – but talking to people did engage their minds – as this matter does!
So this below is not definitive at all, nothing can be used of Osho’s words to support or not support any case. Here he is supporting simply becoming aware of the end product – that the words of truth should reach all nooks and crannies of the known world. I would say myself this is happening through all the contesting trademark/copyright parties despite their animosities! …. (Parmartha)
Below From The Last Testament vol5 #23..
(A question about stealing his words and not mentioning his name.)
” My name is irrelevant. What is relevant is truth. And truth is nobody’s property — neither mine nor yours. So why think in terms of stealing? Perhaps they are not stealing; they are impressed but they are cowards, they cannot say my name. But still they are doing my work. So far so good. Help them. Find out more passages for them to steal. Anyway, the message has to reach to the people. In whose name it reaches is not my concern at all. Just it should reach..”
Osho
So, Parmartha, does this mean it’s a good deal to have court cases among different Osho factions?! Wonder how many are interested in such kind of litigation/news…Maybe those who are, are the bait! The less the better in this case!
Loved to see your post re the matter, Kavita. More so your question: “Does this mean it’s a good deal to have court cases among different Osho factions?!”
You didn´t ask me, but I would answer: NO, it´s not at all ´a good deal’ to have court cases among different Osho factions, but it has happened to be the case.
More so, such is a very fatal happening, as those who deal officially may not only be “the bait” (and I speak of living people, humans). And I would also like to mention that and I would also like to mention that innocent living people and sannyasins, completely uninvolved in such fighting, may be taken hostage or happen to fall prey to unfair deals for power, business and money reasons.
The quote of Osho that Parmartha chose for the topic is situated in a historical context, where everybody involved in the Ranch Experiment had to deal with its collapsing and its failures, its crimes, which had been happening (no doubt about the latter).
The chosen quote though is one kind of ´Absolute TAO´, one can say. Very strong stuff of ´truth´ about ´Truth´.
Bringing such into sucessful application, one could and would say that ANY lawyer´s fights about spiritual possession or a spiritual heritage would just melt like ice in the Sun.
We are not that much evolved, neither a Sannyas Sangha is, nor an obviously and, btw, at any time hostile opponent surrounding us is, one can say.
Quite often, and that is my experience here, one cannot even talk of being in a lived state of fair speech and on fair exchanging speaking- terms. So that we are more or less ´speaking-symptoms´ of this is my impression.
And that´s quite painful, and above that, has less – if in any way -connections with the inner essential Truth of a quote of ´Absolute TAO’, but more with the sometimes enormous difficulties to embody some understanding amongst each other.
Kind of PS:
Did anyone know that in ´Information Age´ nowadays, some (rather rare, very skilled Individuals) Digital Natives are asking for a new to be installed “Human Digital Rights Convention”? They say such is urgently needed to cope with technical information – evolution on the one side AND Humanness on the other.
I feel so too and would second that!
And in spite of that and on a deeper level is lurking a knowing (sensible) that a TAO quote of the calibre posted here above cannot be contradicted, no way…but also not by anybody.
Madhu
Madhu, after writing the question I realised how could anyone have an absolute answer for that? Frankly all this debate is futile/in vain.
The truth probably is whatever happens is the Tao of the moment!
Dear Kavita,
Yes, “all this debate may be futile/in vain”. Responding, though, maybe not, it just happens, and as far as I see, it also belongs to the Tao of the moment, doesn´t it?
Madhu
Actually, Madhu, all is only Tao!
In terms of the word getting out it does not matter.
Yes, the word of ‘ no word ‘ !
I found this quote interesting because Osho is not arguing about copyright or trademark.
He is not even offering any sort of possession of the truth. He is a neutral force for the Existence itself, and it needs to get out, with or without a name. That is the overwhelming matter, and the human mind endlessly finds ways, subtle and not so subtle, to subvert this.
Parmartha,
Even in Pune 1, words were property of Rajneesh Foundation. It has trademark, logo and copyright.
Difference between then and now is Master was still alive so Foundation was not private property of some individuals.
If Osho Foundation is controlled by the collective will of the master and trustees are answerable to disciples and are replaceable, copyright will have some basic legal purpose.
Is the message less valid because we don’t know the postie’s* name, we don’t like, approve of the postie, the way the postie behaves doesn’t fit with our expectations; the message is not valid because the postie is not perfect, or doesn’t fit with our ideas of ‘perfect’?
*postie = postman
I´m a bit insecure, Arpana, if your long and complex question is really a question for you?
Anyway and however, a message becomes valid for me if there is more to it than a postman embedded in the receiving.
Such was/is the case for me with Osho and in spite of coming to know in the course of time that He didn´t fit with expectations of mine, or more important, coming to know that He didn´t and does not fit with my ideas of ´perfect´, and also did and still does strongly challenge my ideas of ethical or moral standards*.
All that didn´t diminish the essence and value of the value of messages like ´Be Yourself´ or ´Take it Easy´ or ´This moment is Everything´, just to name a very few out of the decades-long ´hammering on our rocks’, so to say, or inviting us to float with the white clouds – amidst HIS ways to deliver kind of ´Sheherazade Tales´, spiced so often with numerous jokes, which sometimes did point so accurately to some ´moon´ (inside) that I could sometimes neither take its immediate wisdom (nor laugh about it); most valuable the latter, as He promised it…
And YES, I also came across (like Satchit) other Masters or Mistresses, but I for me can say up to now that none of them hit my unknown and unknowable core so deeply as He did with His sheer Presence.
Sheer Presence, I´d say, has no name anyway – if we are talking names here…
And it’s a really a mystery that I can´t and won´t figure out:
Whenever I join a silent sitting with others, or sharing some truth out of the silent sitting with words, and whenever it happens that a few O-sannyasins join a new constellation by chance and as a surprise (for me), then I´m going deeper, it just happens, and more courage is happening (for me) to let it BE, whatever…comes up.
As far as I can see it, the Issue of ´Sangha´ of a spiritual gathering still holds some unresolved ´inner-topics´(issues, traumata too), as what we call ‘Sangha’, or as I say sometimes ´Field´, is not really understood (made Peace with) by myself, and quite often I´m reminded again about Osho’s take ´BE Choiceless´, to name a last one for now.
Madhu
P.S:
* Here too, the UK/SN Chat delivery, sharing quite a lot of very inconvenient facts, played a challenging role for me the last years – as an uncomfortable ´helper´, one can say.
About five or six years ago I came across an individual who posted so many Osho quotes (Fifty a day, day after day, all over the internet) he was accused of turning Osho’s words into spam, which made me think about, wonder if the postman had to be someone we liked, admired etc.
So this remark wasn’t aimed at you, and wasn’t about me. It was a response to Parmartha’s very balanced view, in response to Osho’s words and the issue of court actions, that the important thing is the message gets out. In support of Parmartha, pretty much from a somewhat different angle.
Thanks for clearance, Arpana, I didn´t recognise that your question mark hadn´t really been one inspiring a response.
Would surely second you when you also dislike when somebody is misusing Osho´s words like spam in the internet, and – last but not least – appreciated, like you did, the Osho quote Parmartha chose to add to the topic.
Madhu
It is well written post, Madhu. Intelligently and honestly written pieces have their own flavour, like summer smell of the grill. More forbidden by the religions and equally fanatic vegans, better taste the steaks. This too was an Osho art, add touch of forbidden.
I would also say that this copyright or trademark thing is not relevant. Some people like to play it – some people play to be against it.
Osho was a channel for Truth. It would be a problem if he would be the only channel for Truth. But this is not the case. Existence created channels of Truth before him and is not miserly and has not stopped creating channels of Truth since his departure.
Osho x-rays truth from all its sides, why? If truth is obvious, why worr?. But something goes wrong, otherwise why masters again and again should try to wake us up?
Sure, truth itself is eternal and fixed…but wordly has humanity been sold down the river by politicians of all times in the name of truth. Leaders and their politicians don’t know eternal truth, they have to steal words to impress the people with lies. Already Atlantis has been drowned by greed and lies of politicians. They simply sell people’s blood on to a minority.
Not stealing – but adulterated…a not knowing society can not resist lies.
World’s dominant leaders focus solely on violence and demarcation. Our time is the most violent human society ever. If a ruling minority uses Osho’s words in future, probably they will mix them up with lies. They claim to be God’s representatives on Earth. Thus they believe devoutly to know what is best for humans. This arrogance will also include poisoning Osho’s words.
Such people are not like us with an approach to live moment to moment. They plan for hundreds of years in advance and learn from past. Result is a lost world society, violence as main focus, caused by violence, lies and not knowing.
Unfortunately, our time gets short, we will not experience what from Osho’s understanding has been made.
Osho says, “Anyway, the message has to reach to the people.”
Okay. I would be interested to hear from fellow-bloggers what exactly this message that has to reach people actually is. Any clues?
Lokesh has had well over thirty years to get the message, and he still hasn’t got it (obviously), so probably a waste of time anyone here attempting to impart it to him.
Lets face it, if Osho can’t give him the message, no chance anyone else can.
I disagree, Arps. Osho, while a spectacular ‘vessel’ for Life to flow through, is not the only master worth listening to, reading, being with or ‘surrendering’ to.
It just happens to be the case that different people need different influences at different stages of their lives. And also, that no one master can ever suit everyone, his/her ‘constituency’ is necessarily limited, even for a master as vast as Osho, whose people would, I think, give widely differing responses as to what “the message” actually is.
Besides, I reckon Lokesh seems to be doing fine, well on the way to being ‘a Light unto himself’ – which is what it’s supposed to be about, isn’t it?!
Why always be so upset with him? Insecurity, or what?
The message is not for you, Lokesh.
Arpana and Satchit, can you both show your answer to your loved ones?Someone called Lokesh asked what exactly the message of Osho that has to reach people actually is and this is our answer?
You guys don’t even feel embarrassed by utter childishness.
If “Religion is an opium for the masses”, Osho books are heroin for another set of masses.
Apart from a thoroughly stupid last paragraph (no doubt born, as usual, from your chronic sense of personal deprivation), I’m actually with you on this one, Shantam.
“Arpana and Satchit, can you both show your answer to your loved ones? Someone called Lokesh asked what exactly the message of Osho that has to reach people actually is and this is our answer?
You guys don’t even feel embarrassed by utter childishness.”
Shantam, your words don’t impress me much. It is a known fact that you play the role of Lokesh’s servant here.
Satchit,
Your words rarely have some gravitation, don’t show much experience; riding on the greatness of any master, alive or dead, does not make people great.
Write something of your own, surely I will be your servant too, or in that sense, any disciple’s servant.
Listening and trying to live Sikh Hymns is part of my daily life. One verse where a disciple named Bhai Gurdas utters, “So overwhelmed to see my fellow disciples, from so far away they have come, I won’t mind if my skin is used for their socks.
“Satchit,
Your words rarely have some gravitation, don’t show much experience; riding on the greatness of any master, alive or dead, does not make people great.”
Shantam,
If you are looking for gravitation you will not find it on the outside, neither in me nor in somebody else.
I suggest you do some Zazen sitting on a pillow, there maybe you can find it. Could be even better for you than singing devotional love songs.
I don’t ride on the greatness of anybody, I’m a master of my self.
Btw, still miss an answer to my question: “What were your reasons that you did take sannyas?”
I mentioned it already: I did take sannyas because of falling in love with Bhagwan. And you said this is a cliche.
I guess one could call it also a cliche:
Falling in love with a German girl and then leaving homeland and following her and the song of love to the Black Forest (sounds like Bollywood).
Cheers!
Satchit declares, “I’m a master of my self.”
That’s a good one. Very entertaining, indeed.
When few people recommend some meditation, it feels like Meditation and Masturbation come from the same root; root is the desire to have peaceful pleasure!
Unnecessary to mention, Shantam I. Singh aka Shantam Prem, that your way of Masturbation would not even be allowed in some ugly M & S pub. That’s maybe the reason you prefer to spill your kind of junk into the worldwide-web.
At least as long you will do so until the moment one will catch hold of you red-handed one day and then in real time/real world stance as a real male Pervert, as well as all your IT-equipment you mostly use for harassment and nothing much else!
Watch out!
My God!
Satchit is a contender and challenger for the jackass news heavyweight world champion village idiot crown!
This is mouthwatering!
Even attempting to challenge and take on a Punjabi village idiot, which is the equivalent of trying to outrun a Jamaican or a Kenyan, is, in itself, extremely idiotic, thereby paradoxically giving the German parrot-weight champion at least a fighting chance.
The reigning chump, in his Everlast chuddies needs to watch out!
The contender can do a pretty neat advaita shuffle!
Bring it on!
Btw, Frank,
You make me curious: Is “Frank” your sannyas name, something like Swami Anand Frank, or have you dropped it?
Satchit,
Yeah.
I`m an underground ubermensch now.
Shantam, shouldn’t that last bit read:
“So overwhelmed to see my fellow disciples, from so far away they have ‘come’, I won’t mind if my foreskin is used for their sex.”?
I’m really surprised you got that famous Goodarse quote so wrong….
If one were to ask someone, “Are you happy?”, this does not imply that the questioner is unhappy, obviously or otherwise.
To believe that asking such a question implies the questioner is obviously unhappy because they asked such a question indicates that the believer is totally lacking common sense or, in Arpana’s case, harbouring resentment and obsessive tendencies that render him blind to the fact that he is talking nonsense.
{*}
MOD:
THIS MEANS ‘Expand’.
“Okay. I would be interested to hear from fellow-bloggers what exactly this message that has to reach people actually is. Any clues?”
If at all there is a message it’s that there can’t be any message, period!
Seems (to me), Kavita, that you as one here hit the target of the thread topic (how it is embedded and given) the most relaxed way and a picture came up: the admirable ´yawning of a cat´…
Strangely enough, what came up in me during that more sleepless than restful night last night: and that was the incident when the FBI on the Ranch found out about the very technically refined (ordered by Anand Sheela) complex bugging system, also in the private rooms of the Master, where He used to have talks in particular with very few of ´chosen few´.
In later responses to questions from disciples and also journalists, HE said: “To be enlightened does not mean that you know that your room is bugged.”
So far to the title here:
“The Words should reach- How – It is not my Concern” (Osho) which Parmartha (or others?) chose as title of the thread topic.
A relaxed cat on a sofa would not even blink an eye about such an incident, or about any fuss made about it, I guess.
But ordinary humans and even an ordinary-extraordinary Master of Meditation may be claiming some respect and intimacy for words spoken in intimate zones. Words, which may not at all intentionally mean to be a ´message´ for just everybody like a ´flat-liner´ – and for good reasons the latter?
I´m a bit reluctant to post what came up in the night here for me, but surfing some ´waves’ the thread was taking yesterday, I´m going to post it.
In spite of realising that I´m not that relaxed as a cat; and just having had some glimpses of Truth about that which we then call ´TAO´ or ´LEELA´, which doesn´t ´reject´ anything: neither betrayal, contradictions, false testimonials vs. trustworthy testimonials, trial and errors, love or hate, good intentions or bad, misunderstandings or understandings…and so on and so on.
That´s quite a challenge to deal with and deserves big letters, doesn´t it?
Madhu
“But ordinary humans and even an ordinary-extraordinary Master of Meditation may be claiming some respect and intimacy for words spoken in intimate zones. Words, which may not at all intentionally mean to be a ´message´ for just everybody like a ´flat-liner´ – and for good reasons the latter?” (Madhu)
Madhu, according to me, even when a Master-Disciple bonding appears to be happening/happens, even in that intimacy, the Master is not at all intimate, this is my realisation now.
As for “flat-liners” (it’s an American science fiction psychological horror film as per my search engine!) so probably you mean ‘one-liners’, which is more like it!
“That´s quite a challenge to deal with and deserves big letters, doesn´t it?” – For me it’s mostly a challenge to decide which ones deserves big letters!
SD said,
“Osho, while a spectacular ‘vessel’ for Life to flow through, is not the only master worth listening to, reading, being with or ‘surrendering’ to.”
Yes. I agree with that. I even find inspiration in remarks made here.
I have just read a book entitled ‘Art and Fear’. I know myself better now.
Many individuals, who are nothing to do with meditation, let alone ‘enlightened masters’,inspire me, show me doors worth exploring.
I loved reading (quite fast) through the posts. You guys nailed it – the MESSAGE. The one who really understands it owns it. I think that’s precisely the show we are watching between OIF, Indians and Nepalese and even here on Sannyasnews.
For the 1st time, I agree with Lokesh (at least I hope I sensed it right) – there is no MESSAGE! Just relax…no one can relax, everyone so serious….
Nice to read (hear), Chetna, that scrolling roundabout our caravanserai comments here could be of any bit of a service for you at your place in London.
And thanks for your concluding feedback, recommending: “Just relax…no one can relax, everyone so serious….”
So familiar the latter, you won´t believe it….
Madhu
Yes, Chetna, you sensed right. Osho taught over a broad spectrum. Unlike other gurus who were more specific and stuck to one approach like Advaita teachers.
Good topic for a thread, or so I thought, sitting atop some rocks enjoying the sun sparkling on the sea. A million shards of light from the same source.
A common theme is emerging: in the end there is no message. Very Good!
What about the real estate in Pune whose market worth is around a billion euros?
Anyway, erotic literature has also never claimed to have some kind of message. Are recorded and published talks of Superconsciousness in the same league as Literature Erotica?
Common people, whether in countries or cults, are always relaxed and take life easy, it is the itching in the groins of alpha males and equally powerful, their bitches, which create hell on the Earth.
Shantam asks, !What about the real estate in Pune whose market worth is around a billion euros?”
Ehm…errr…a grossly exaggerated sum?
You will not get your hands on any of it?
What does it have to do with you?
None of your business?
Who gives a fuck?
What about it, Shantam?
You are right, Lokesh, Osho had written off that small piece of worthless property to me on a Rs 101/- stamp paper which he made on my 7th birthday in 1974. I was going o disclose this on 11th Dec 2017 but couldn’t resist after I read your post!
Cool, K.
It is easy to play morally superior when one has no emotional investment. For example, priests do this all the time though hold their salary as tightly as child holds the teddy bear.
That would seem to be the point, Shantam, your “emotional investment” in memories of a past that’s receding every day yet which you stubbornly insist on keeping alive, angry that it’s gone, blaming others for your consequent misery, while imagining it can be resurrected in a similar form.
Have you ever considered that you might have allowed your emotions, fed by memory and imagination, to rule you to such an extent that they’re ruining your life? Not the OIF and the ashram powers-that-be, but absolute belief, trust in your own emotions and their fantasies.
Including giving up your legal career before it had really started, imagining you’d live ‘happy ever after’ in or close to the Pune ashram, going to Germany…all based on emotional dreams, that can so easily turn into nightmares.
For me, Osho is as dead as Jesus or Buddha. Unfortunately, his church is in bigger shit than Christianity and Buddhism. Being an insider participant it seems my good intention to clean the sewerage.
The message is:
Meditate.
Go into what is dragging you down; either actively or by watching.
Go into what draws you; ignore those who will try to to stop you; and be flexible about how you do that.
Be total, or in the words of Fred from the Pig and Whistle, “Get stuck in. Give it a bit of Welly.”
Also, if you go in the wrong direction totally enough, that direction will eventually become the right direction.
The message is very clear.
It is: Be a light unto yourself!
And if you cannot be a light unto yourself, be at least a joke unto yourself!
Well, Satchit, no one will argue that you succeeded at the latter part of Osho’s message. For sure.
Cool, Loco, this was a good remark. Try again, don’t be so shy, you can even do it better!
To say there is ‘no message’ is good for the dumbheads.
If one is a bit intelligent then one knows the contrary is also true. The message is thousandfold. Every real sannyasin is a message.
I would say a ‘real sannyasin’ follows his intuition.
“There are sannyasins who are not sannyasins; there are non-sannyasins who are sannyasins.
Sannyas is not something outward, it is something inner.”
(Osho)
You say, Satchit: “I would say a ‘real sannyasin’ follows his intuition.”
I´d say, cleansing “intuition” from all kinds of delusions, nice dreams – as also nightmarish dreaming patterns as habits, maybe a lifelong happening, if not even ´lives´(?)long company – if we like it or not.
Everybody, I guess, would easily agree (mostly, sadly enough, only intellectually) that we go step by step on the ´Path of Life´ (some training facilitators of ´walkabouts´ call it ´Path of Love´), uniquely and walking alone on our own feet, our own feet in our own moccasins.
One step at a time.
So many ´adverts´ on the crossroads, inner as outer ones. So many ´Escort-Services´ to book, one can say, and none of which will relieve anybody from the effort to investigate by ´trials and errors’; if their ´walking-support-manuals´ do encourage us in facing the Unknowable of a path: One step at a time ; nothing more, and nothing less either, it´s marvellous.
Very much enjoyable and it seems to me, needed too, to meet friends of walking in this kind of spirit. Meeting them ´for the time being´.
I felt familiar with some of your short-liners these very last days, Satchit. And sure enough, as some said here: to meet somebody writing here ´in the flesh´ can be quite something else…
-
Crispy clear sunny early morning here at my inner-working place
Sky without clouds
The Wind happening to be a ferocious Entity these last days
Beginning calming down
Trees letting go of almost all their coloured leaves…
Sitting here, watching it all – barefoot…in Gratefulness for a guidance which didn´t claim to be a guidance at all. In the true sense of the word: Masterly…
Wishing you all well, you ´Unknowables´ – here.
With Love,
Madhu
“To say there is ‘no message’ is good for the dumbheads.”
To say this is true for Osho beginners.
MOD:
TO SAY WHAT, PLEASE, Kavita – to say there is ‘no message’ OR TO SAY Satchit’s IDEA?
Kavita:
Actually, in both cases.
Kavita, if you say there is ‘no message’ then it boils down to an opinion which can only be the half-truth.
A blade of grass is the message, and a falling leaf too.
No, dear, it does not mean the half-truth, in fact saying there is any message is a way showing a false bait where none exists; that’s why I said that is for Osho beginners!