Ex Sannyasin Sociologist claims NRM’s can be empowering for women

This Article was referenced in the Independent on 20th December

NRM’s can be empowering for women

author1It’s safe to say cults have a pretty bad rep, particularly for women. We’ve heard stories of manipulation, beatings, starvation and downright bizarreness.
However one sociologist who’s spent her life studying religious movements and cults believes there are some that are good for women.
Like many sociologists, Dr Puttick prefers the term “new religious movement” (NRM) to “cult” because it’s deemed more neutral.
She herself was a member of a NRM called the Osho movement, and it was her positive time there that drove her to look into other women’s experiences.
Dr Puttick explained to Broadly that the Osho movement focuses on meditation and philosophy, which appealed to her. After living in India and being part of the movement for five years, she gradually drifted away.

A lot of NRMs, however, are known for the extremely backwards roles they give women: “In more conservative movements, such as the Unification Church (‘Moonies’) and conservative Christian movements, women are often expected to serve men domestically, sometimes with restricted access to the teachings and practices,” Dr Puttick says.

And a lot of traditional NRMs are rife with misogyny, according to Dr Puttick.

However she explains that more progressive NRMs, such as the Osho Movement and the Brahma Kumaris, treat women equally if not superior to men.
“The Osho movement encouraged women to rise above their social conditioning and promoted them into leadership positions,” Dr Puttick explains. “Osho saw women as spiritually superior to male disciples and better equipped for becoming enlightened.”

Whilst singing the praises of the Osho movement, Dr Puttick admits that there are lots of NRMs that treat women badly, where the leader (or guru) exploits his female disciples, often taking them as lovers with the promise of a quicker path to enlightenment.

According to Dr Puttick, these relationships left some women feeling “abused and damaged”.
So how do you know whether an NRM is good or bad for women? “Perhaps the most important test is whether it’s as easy to leave the movement as it is to join,” says Dr Puttick.
If some cults and NRMs do leave women feeling more enlightened as she claims, that’s got to be a good thing.

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70 Responses to Ex Sannyasin Sociologist claims NRM’s can be empowering for women

  1. frank says:

    Cults are cool.
    Its high time cultists everywhere came out of the closet. There`s nothing more sad than someone standing there with robes, a mala, a pic of a bloke with a beard whose guidelines he follows all day, claiming he`s not in a cult.

    Time to come out guys!
    We could all learn something from the gays and stage a series of Cult Pride festivals all over the world.

    Just think…
    Carnivals with all the representatives of all the cults strutting their stuff thru the city streets on huge juggernauts hauled by bare-chested, shaven headed, long-haired, funky-bearded spiritual hunks with their pecs and chakras glistening out above their lunghis, holy chuddies and spiritual jewellery…
    There could be robed figures in Rolls Royces dressed up as whipped cream canisters…
    Bikini-clad girls handing out free kool-Aid…
    Raelians and aliens in the buff getting it on in the street…
    Hugging saints and hugging sinners…all welcome.
    Some Moonie weddings…
    Hare Krishnas in wet T-shirts and saris, going wild…
    TM guys levitating on down the street…
    Aum shrinko guys selling laughing gas…
    Tibetan boozists drinking insane quantities of chang and chanting mindlessly…
    Eckhart Tolle fans dressed up as garden gnomes.
    Baba Freelunch`s crowd would come for the free lunch.
    Barry Longers could even come along and comment on how over-emotional it all was…
    Branch Davidians falling out of trees…

    The positive thing for the Osho movement is we would be well represented these days than in the old days.
    We`d have Swami Brian Rajneesh and Dyanraj cavorting toplessly in an open-top rickshaw singing “We are the champions”. Arun in drag giving a blistering rendition of “I feel love”. The three Oshodhaba stooges could come as themselves..

    Remember the words of Gloria Gaynor:
    “Life`s not worth a damn
    Till you can shout out
    I am what I am!”

    • frank says:

      Seriously, the word ‘cult’ can be reclaimed and stripped it of its negative connotations and worn with pride, like gays have done with the word ‘queer’.

      (Ask any gay guy and he`ll tell you that queer-bashers are just repressed gays. Same with cults).

      Then you can look at people and say:
      “Sure, I handed over control of my conscious volition and surrendered to an all-powerful guy. Anyone who`s done it will tell you that master/disciple is the ultimate role-play turn on. It doesn`t get any better than that. There`s nothing wrong with it – it`s just reality – after all, conscious volition is an illusion: thou art that, and all that.

      Darling, you`re a bit uptight, you need to relax and let your inner cultist out to play. You look camp enough for a meditation camp. Fancy a quickie active meditation on the way to Heaven, under the arches?

    • kusum says:

      Spirituality is not a religion. Being spiritual just means you are in touch with your own divine self. It is very simple really.

  2. shantam prem says:

    This article I have seen first at Fb page of Chaitanya Keerti.

    People dedicated to religions have always a negative impressions about cults. In reality, cults are like boutiques whereas religions are like superstores. Cult or religion, main thing is customers’/followers’ satisfaction, transparent prices, high quality, mouth-to- mouth promotion.

    As far as cult called Sannyas is concerned, it is on the nadir of its decay. Managing partners are engaged in court battles, workers of the boutique have opened their own boutiques.

    Path of Love by Turiya, Arun in Nepal and Rajneesh in Mexico are few successful cult leaders catering to the social needs of people influenced by Osho´s oratory.

  3. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    I am always wondering in front of people who call themselves ex-disciples of Osho.

    How can they claim to get out of this particular cult, whose form of discipline & worship is primarily towards themselves being themselves, without appearing dogmatic or hypocritical what they say next?

    I think mostly they are people who have tried a father/god-figure that would allow them to continue to sleep on their own responsibility and to dream of a happiness after death. I remember (I see) that the strong presence of a sober friend while I was immersed in my various forms of addiction was quite annoying.

    Or they are people who, strangely, having a fresh source from which to drink, have preferred to judge it by the brand of those who bottled it.

    From this follows that an ex-sannyasin, seen by us, will be remembered as an ex-addict who at one point jumped from the boat, breaking the rehabilitation program through responsible behaviour.

    Hugs,

    VF

  4. Kavita says:

    After reading this article here, I had thoughts the same as Frank mentions (29 December, 2016 at 12:03 pm) and then when I read his first comment I could relate best to “Life`s not worth a damn/Till you can shout out/I am what I am!”

    Frank, thank you for saving my energy, I am a bit lazy to write, due to the cold weather!

    I would like to add this:
    Though being a man or woman in any cult is an individual experience, for me it’s given all the more courage to be myself.

  5. Lokesh says:

    Of course there is nothing wrong with cults. Ask Charlie.

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      You don´t mean Charles Manson and his cult here, SN self-proclaimed Skinhead, Lokesh, or do you really???

      That cult ´Charlie`, who so much liked to play the Californian guitar and cult-pontificating his audience at that time, while planning the gang´s next murder-riot?

      Still living I guess, in a Californian jail, this kind of ´Charlie´…

      Wouldn´t have mentioned and asked for clarification, Lokesh on Ibiza, if the chat thread hadn’t taken this turn triggered by a kind of dumpfolded* upload/update of an ancient Federico Fellini film, ‘Satyricon’, by Franks´s proposal for a reality soap script, which – in my view – doesn´t hit the target of the topic given, but goes far astray!

      Not ‘cool’ at all! So much so! (And Yogi, Anand, if you feel now like bulletting this one of my response(s) I would say, beforehand: “Shut up! Once in a while!”).

      Madhu (not amused at all!).

      P.S:
      And don´t ask me, why, moderators!

      *MOD:
      OK, Madhu – BUT WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY dumpfolded?

  6. Lokesh says:

    Stick it in the family album:

    Jim Jones
    Born: James Warren Jones
    May 13, 1931
    Crete, Indiana, United States
    Died: November 18, 1978 (aged 47)
    Jonestown, Guyana
    Cause of death: Gunshot wound to the head
    Occupation: Religious leader

  7. Parmartha says:

    On the string topic:
    Osho certainly directed that women be given lead positions in the ashram administration. He also sometimes talked about women mystics, though not that much.

    The paradox is that Osho was a man and he was the boss, or so one might say. Dr. Puttick does not address this.
    As for myself, if someone, male or female, has the ability, or in the case of mysticism, disposition, then they need every encouragement and need to exercise it.

    The sorrow of much of life is that so many people never have the chance to exercise their abilities and dispositions because of those who have ‘position’ and who are mediocre.

    I often felt all those years ago that within the ashram administration the abilities of males were overlooked, and somehow men became overly disempowered.

    • Kavita says:

      If momentarily I can call myself a sociologist (as I have academically studied sociology), I would say that Osho worked on emancipating humanity by reversing the power psyche, as of my observation (but I could be wrong here).

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Dear Parmartha,

      you say:
      ” The paradox is that Osho was a man and he was the boss, or so one might say. Dr. Puttick does not address this.”

      Well, why should she do that, Parmartha, in an article in a UK Newspaper or Journal – about comparing New religious Movements ?

      She -the author, seems to be grateful for the life phase, she joined the Sannyas ´dance´.
      Reading yesterday more about her vita and her advertising seminars and other stuff in her ´Literary Agency´ in London, she seems one of the very many, opening up a buisiness after having had profited quite a lot, from what she ´d got ( by the Sannyas Movement) , joining human growths workshops, being in Medina for a little while etc.

      She ´s passing something on – it seems. For good money, I guess, same like many others do. And we don´t know her, Liz, do we, or do you ?
      -
      Osho has never been a ´boss´in my eyes, but I met a lot of ´bossy people these long decades, using His name, often for living out their own power-trips. Most of the time, that was recognizable, sometimes not. Or pretty much later then. My blind spots !

      Also so called ´cultish behaviour has been happening. At any time btw, not only on the ranch in Oregon.

      I still call my relating to ´Sannyas a Love Affair, but not with a person, and this kind of Love Affair is still happening in me and didn t end.
      All ups and downs included.

      The very last decades and especially the very last years, I am living a kind of ´hermit life, it happened and I still wouldn´t say, that it was me, to decide for it. Nor that it is easy.

      So – the UK SN – spot to share – inspite of the ´void-feeling , which quite often grips my emotional body with all its insecurities became indeed a virtual caravanserai for me, a caravanserai , where one finds
      (inside-)shelter in a desert , during a ´walk about´, how the Aussies say.

      Time again , to say thank you, Parmartha, as you and Paritosh/Sam founded this virtual meeting place.
      And a miracle isn´t it, that such is still happening.

      You also share, Parmartha:
      ” I often felt all those years ago that within the ashram administration the abilities of males were overlooked, and somehow men became overly disempowered.”

      The latter did touch me deep ; I feel sorry for you here, and I feel sorry for me too.
      Reconciliation is a long way short and a short way long, isn ´t it ?

      I wish you very well, Parmartha -
      - not only during this Years New years Eve -

      with Love

      Madhu

      • Parmartha says:

        Thanks, Madhu.
        Happy New Year. Nice post.

        The new man and new woman in the new commune will be genuinely equal if I have anything to do with it, and those with abilities or dispositions, encouraged and not allowed to sit on their energies, or talents, just because the Sheelas of this world feel it is good for their growth. Actually, the opposite is true!

  8. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    @Lokesh:

    Bad news for you: even the boxers occasionally hugging each other. Maybe I can not be anymore so pissed off with you and the crap that you usually write here.

    Looking for, among the old posts of the blog, traces of the human DNA left back by nicknames, I came across a comment you did the last December, in response to the appeal by Ma Mukta.

    The love I felt in what you have written, instead of the feeling of your usual involvement in stylistic or disputing aspects, surprised and touched me, thanks for your sharing. (Ah, be careful: from people belonging to other sects do not accept drinks, especially orange juice).

    @Frank
    @Kavita

    Is there something more snobbish and sectarian than sannyasins who talk and giggle on other sannyasins, concerned only not to appear identified with the “adept” stereotype promoted by mainstream religions?

    Frankly, you don’t sound frank, but if you have already found, thanks to Gloria Gaynor, who you really are there is no need to suggest you any spiritual practice that normally do provide any, or at least comfortable, shoes.

    I do not care yours or anybody else’s sexual orientation, and I’m sorry if in case you’ve recently made a bad encounter returning from a 80s party: I asked only if you have something to share, besides the notarial and remarking function, it was not a gallant invitation.

    At least with your staid gesture, with whom I usually ward off a fly, you got some glory, maybe you have to work a bit more, she/he is lazy, if not just tired of the cult’s life, that essentially means celebration, imvho.

    “Ti amo” (Osho, speaking with me).

    Ciao,

    VF

    P.S:
    How does one to have an ungrateful heart with such a gift in the heart? How to believe that the centre of the world is a cold and wet king dorm, with its moods?

    • Kavita says:

      Sw.Veet, this post is very confusing to me as I can’t relate to any of it.

      P.S:
      Btw, that post of Mukta’s is probably Feb 2015.

  9. shantam prem says:

    “Too much fucking, less love, destroyed cult around Osho.”

    Can someone describe another reason in one sentence? One counter logic is already coming in my mind: “As long as book trade will remain, Osho cult will remain alive.”

    • Arpana says:

      Shantam,

      Submission to your agenda and love are not the same, and submission to your agenda is what you actually mean by love.

  10. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Happy new opening of the heart! (like in the early 90s, isn’t it, K?)

    “Someone will return
    to hear your voice,
    to tell you that life
    It is a game in the meadows,
    that time has no end
    if you live for someone.
    Someone will return
    to love you every day.
    To tell you that life
    It is a game in the meadows,
    that time has no end
    when you live for someone.
    Someone will return
    to love you every day.”

    • Kavita says:

      VF, I still haven’t reached that destination, if that;s your preferred destination now. I am still stuck with ‘me first’ as always/now, which seems the only way for now for me!

  11. Lokesh says:

    When I woke up to the fact, it was difficult for me to admit at first that by becoming a sannyasin I had joined a cult. Growing up in the sixties, cults had a terrible name, which is why I mentioned Jim Jones and Charles Manson. Of course, not all cults are bad. Apart from Oregon, sannyasins did rather well in the long run.

    So, a new year is upon us. 2016 was for me one of the toughest in my life. My wife was almost killed in a car crash on December 11, 2015. It was an event that changed our lives for ever and even though it was Osho’s birthday I certainly do not see it as some sort of a deliberate device for our awakening, although in many ways it was. We woke up to another level of appreciation and gratitude for every moment of our lives. Now that she is able to walk again, my beloved Prita is so happy that she can once again go for a stroll along the beach and I am also, because I almost lost her and it is a miracle that she is till here by my side.

    Much love to all the regulars here on SN and may it be a wonderful new year for you. The world might be in a mess, but if you have the right way of looking at it, it can still be paradise.

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Thank you very much for that fabuluous pic compilation again, Lokesh.

      And above all, thank you for your sharing.
      It has – like pretty much always ´flesh and bones´and wings too !

      You say: “Apart from Oregon, sannyasins did rather well in the long run.”

      Sounds really nice, but I don´t know , and wouldn´t at all deny it either !

      Re Oregon, you might sometimes, (if you have too much time), look at, what Yoga Priya shared about her time in Oregon ( being asked by her husband, to do so…
      It´s edited in Osho News, besides her nowadays shared Pottery Art and Poetry , which is also a very beautiful read and more than ´read !)

      Just came from a small byke tour here; the last day of this year gifts us all with an aquamarin sky of Light and frosty powdered trees and bushes and acres.

      Visited my favorite ancient tree in a courtyard of a tiny little castle here nearby.
      Michael Ende, a well known author of children´s books for grown-ups and beyond, has a museum there, as he also liked to paint a lot.
      (´Momo´and ´The never ending story´only two titles..´Garden of Mirrors´another one. Simply labyrinthic pieces with mostly a good ending…)

      And of the latter, you shared one, isn´t it ?

      Love and a hug to you and to your beloved Prita
      on a before New Years Eve – afternoon -where the Sun will soon be setting.

      Madhu

    • Parmartha says:

      Welcome post, Lokesh.

    • shantam prem says:

      Heart-warming post….

    • Tan says:

      Thanks, Lokesh, for the post and pic!

      You said, “sannyasins did rather well in the long run.” Yes, I agree, and there is your pic to confirm it.

      And I agree with you again: this world can be a paradise.

      Happy New Year!

    • satyadeva says:

      Great post, Lokesh.

      A personal strategy I’ve begun to use to minimise intrusion by ‘the world’ and its ever-increasing, apparently unstoppable misery, hopefully to also help release energy to reduce personal difficulties and focus on the good in life, is to avoid as far as I can the noxious outpourings of the news, particularly politics and seemingly insoluble socio-economic problems, whether on tv, radio or newspapers. I’ve just had enough of it all.

      Have managed about 12 days so far, the first target being 3 months, and am already feeling quite refreshed. It can get a bit bizarre at times, eg when I see or hear the news about to begin and make a scramble for the tv or radio, making sounds or mumbling gibberish to avoid being psychically ‘polluted’ by it all.

      So, it’s me vs. The Bad News. Absurd, but fun.

    • Arpana says:

      Lokesh.

      One of the defining characteristics of a cult is that individuals are not allowed to leave.

      Given the way you are forced to write so much negative shite about Osho and Sannyas here at Sannyas News, I can understand why you believe Sannyas is a cult.

      Given the way you were prevented from dropping the mala and red clothes in the early eighties, because your neighbours were unpleasant to you, and prevented from selling your mala, I can understand why you would see Sannyas as a cult.

      Had a major operation last year, along with other challenges. Started again. Given me a new lease of life. Been amazing, thrilling, but I am in no doubt my relationship with Osho has played a part in my rising to the challenge as I have.

      Glad Prita is OK.

      • Lokesh says:

        Yes, Arpana, thing is that as far as a quetionnaire about what defines a cult goes, Sannyas would tick most of the boxes. Personally, I am cool with that.

        You say, “Given the way you are forced to write so much negative shite about Osho and Sannyas here at Sannyas News, I can understand why you believe Sannyas is a cult.”

        This simply confirms for me that you have not a clue where I am actually coming from in my approach towards Osho and Sannyas. This in itself is not important to me and I do not feel the need to explain myself. As a regular here at SN I see that you are someone who needs someone you experience some form of enmity towards in order to fully express yourself. Often as not I am the one you choose to cast in the role of bad guy. I can accept that.

        For all your talk of meditation and your relationship to Osho I see you as someone who is labouring under a number of attributes that I would describe as delusional. You point the finger of negativity towards others, not seeing that it is your own negativity you are experiencing, something most people do. As a sannyasin, one should know better than that.

        A recent example was you interpreting something I said as me throwing a hissy fit. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am being honest with you here. In my life I can’t remember the last time I experienced anything remotely resembling a hissy fit.

        As a rule, I never write anything on here without considering it. If I detect too much emotion of a negative nature prompting me to write something, I immediately delete it.

        I wish you the best, as I do with almost everyone I meet in life. If you wish to have the last word, which is often the case on SN for you, be my guest. I have nothing further to comment on in regards to this.

        • Arpana says:

          @ Lokesh.
          “This simply confirms for me that you have not a clue where I am actually coming from in my approach towards Osho and Sannyas. This in itself is not important to me and I do not feel the need to explain myself.”

          He then goes onto explain himself.

      • simond says:

        According to Arpana, one of the attributes of a cult is “that individuals are not allowed to leave”. Which is odd, in that you often focus on individuals who have left Sannyas, or who aren’t as ‘dedicated’ and ‘surrendered ‘ as you are.

        You don’t display much interest in anyone who might have dropped their name or even spent time with other teachers, or anyone who doesn’t quote Osho as the highest form of authority.

        Seems to me that your attention and criticism and negativity display many of the attributes of cultish type behaviour….

  12. prem martyn says:

    Has anyone seen a large hand written double sided sheet of A4 near here? I put it down somewhere and despite looking in all the cupboards I cannot find it.

    Its entitled ‘Karl Popper’s Favourite New Year Disco Hits’, a compilation of quotes for the New Year and some dance moves.

    Here’s that disco tutorial that I love to pop to from the KP archives:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch12Rs3d25k

  13. shantam prem says:

    Happy Good Morning to all my fellow ‘cultists’. Life around the world is coming back to normal after collective hype and excitement.

    Even if someone goes out from the cult, shades and impressions remain in the cells of the brain. Not that easy to delete impressions even though every cult creates the jibe, karma of lives will be erased.

  14. frank says:

    Very little intelligent thinking has gone into what exactly a `cult` is. Fact is, `cultish` behaviour and thinking is extremely common in a variety of forms and is an essential component of the social animals that are human beings. It`s basically the natural in-group/out-group human tendency complexified by belief and ideology.

    People believe that because of the existence of a word, a clear entity ‘out there’ exists. `Hypnosis` is, in a way, similar. Hypnosis is taken to be a special state, outside of normal experience by most people. Enquiry has shown that in fact it is not possible to separate hypnosis from everyday life. There are everyday trances that everyone experiences, like when driving and being lost in any activity. It`s part and parcel of life

    Yes, there are extreme cases, and the relatively unusual is focused on, whether it be people drinking urine and savouring it as champagne, or clucking like chickens onstage, or Jim Jones handing out Kool-Aid, but this obscures the fact of universality of the experience in other more common forms.

    The idea of ‘cult’ is a projection by those who over-identify with the viewpoint of individual responsibility/authorship onto those who appear to throw responsibility. Of course this is a projection because that is how all societies, religions, armies, nations etc. etc. actually work.

    There has to be a receptacle for the unacknowledged parts of self. Cults act in this way for society. Cults are ‘the Devil’ who lives in the shadow.

    Nevertheless, on the other side, to deny one`s own cultish behaviour, such as many cult members do, simply shows lack of self-awareness. For example, to deny any cultism in Osho`s Sannyas, as many do (even as a ‘device’, when at the same time subscribing to Osho`s device of ‘giving a taste of fascism’) or in the face of endless ‘bannings’ and sects etc. is just silly.

    In order to become ‘enlightened’ you`ve surely got to be brighter than that?

    • Lokesh says:

      ‘Nevertheless,on the other side,to deny one`s own cultish behaviour such as many cult members do simply shows lack of self-awareness.’
      Frank, excellent comment, that is right on the money.
      If ever visiting Ibiza, look me up.

    • Arpana says:

      Lokesh,
      Nobody here at Sannyas News, with a picture of Osho on the mast-head, is trying to impose anything on you.

      Imposing and browbeating and nagging comes from you, because you can’t face up to the fact that you ran away from Sannyas because it got too much for you to handle.

      • Lokesh says:

        Interesting statement from Arpana, which leaves me wondering if there were two Oshos in existence. He says, “you ran away from Sannyas because it got too much for you to handle.”

        Why would one run away from such a thing? Perhaps the Osho Arpana met produced fear in him. Maybe he is not a very brave or courageous man and thus projected his fear onto Osho, thus creating some kind of cosmic boogie man. The Osho I met was nothing like that, in fact, he was the most benign man I ever had the pleasure of meeting in my entire life.

        Yes, perhaps in the early days I was a little afraid of certain aspects of the sannyas game, but really nothing to write home about. On the numerous occasions I had the supreme pleasure of talking, sitting with and hanging out with Osho there was only one occasion that I experienced anything remotely resembling fear, although I felt no need to run away.

        I had a darshan wherein Osho said to me, “Lokesh, are you sure you really want to be enlightened?” In that moment an abyss opened up in front of me. No stranger to altered states, the situation was not unfamiliar. Osho looked at me, awaiting an answer. I realised that I was not ready to give up my limited ego self forever and I answered, “No, Bhagwan, I do not wish to be enlightened right now.” Osho chuckled and said, “Very good, Lokesh.”

        On that level, at least nothing has changed in my life. I have dropped the whole idea of enlightenment and enjoy my life as much as humanly possible, very much aware that I will one day have to let go of it.

        There was nothing to be afraid of around Osho. In fact, quite the opposite. There was an abundance of love, and I experienced no problem in embracing that love. The fact that Arpana believes that there could exist something about Osho that would make one run away brings into question the nature of his relationship with Osho and what exactly that relationship was founded on.

        It is a mistake to think that you need to spend your entire life with a master to get what is available. I am reminded of a Beedie Wallah story. A young westerner came to visit the Advaita master and they shared a brief exchange, perhaps lasting 20 minutes. When the young man left, he did so receiving the master’s blessing. The Baba commented later that in today’s world such seekers are rare, because that young fellow understood everything there was to be imparted in less than half an hour.

        This in turn brings to mind the fools who hang around wise guys for decades and remain the same ignorant people they always were.

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Thanks, Frank.
      Was/is badly needed, this one of your contributions at 12.06 pm. Shiny New Year´s caravanserai-spot.

      Grateful, to have you online.

      Madhu

      • frank says:

        Madhu,
        Glad you`re happy again now.
        I promise not to put up any more bad taste, gay-themed jokes.

          • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

            ‘Shaudenfreudenspielzondergretzen’*

            You´re scoring as well in that kind of game as ever, Frank. Thanks for making that clear again for me.
            Maybe helping me to better avoid further psychic attacks from your corner, and being targeted, ´just like this´.

            Madhu

            P.S:
            *Took this from Prem Martyn´s ‘Karl Popper´s post-empirical reviews’ and creative writings the other day.

  15. shantam prem says:

    One interesting life fact happening around Osho´s commune was man/woman attractions. So much open relating in every form almost became a USP of Sannyas cult.

    Nothing wrong in this. It was almost a revolution in the religious movements founded by gurus from India. When others preach celibacy and arranged marriages, Osho stressed on the Love in all its forms.

    In this kind of atmosphere, many people went away from communes, one because of frustration and anger because their delicate feelings were crushed in the love affair, and secondly, those who found their life partners and felt strong enough to build their nest on their own.

  16. shantam prem says:

    One latest story about Yoga cult founder.

    Sannyasins can imagine what fate Osho Foundation has to pass through if facing Western justice system! Cult and corruption go sooner or later hand-in-hand. India is therefore the best country for nurturing and milking the followers’ emotions and their money.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4078878/Find-yoga-guru-s-Ferraris-British-woman-wins-control-yogi-Bikram-s-empire-43-luxury-cars-sex-case-ve-vanished.html

    • shantam prem says:

      Thanks, Frank, this is a worthwhile scene documentary. During first two minutes I thought, my God, so similar like Bhagwan and His people.

      Being one of the skeptical devotees I still believe Osho´s work is more than the scholarly talks in easy to understand language, it is more than guru worshipping, it is one scientific religious movement created for holistic human being.

      Time and again it burst into flames, not because founder had wrong intentions but disciples’ pride. It seems compassion of the master, devotion of the disciples and pride of top league disciples is a toxic combination.

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        Yes, Shantam Prem, this documentary about the Source Family is worthwhile.

        Other than in most of comparable other docs. about other social religious movements, it is done from the ‘inside’,´from the very beginning of this movement up to nowadays we hear (from so-called ´Isis´). Quite trustworthy documented stuff, telling stories of that which Satyadeva named a ´deterioration index´.

        Also points most honestly at the inter-dependency of the initiator (head) of the movement with its followers.
        The storyboard in so far a lucky rather local Californian ending´of the unending stories of humans who feel the urge and the call to go for a change in their lives in the context of the contemporary status quo of the society and the families they grew up with.

        And sorry enough that the majority of those who don´t feel any such urge ever, most greedily indulge in sensational so-called news about scandals of ´sex, drugs and crime, money issues or legal fights´, hardly if ever interested in the humans who choose a certain path of life. The here presented doc, though. makes such a view possible.

        Unlike you, Shantam Prem, I have not been reminded of “Bhagwan/Osho and his people”. And unlike you see yourself, Shantam Prem, as a “skeptical devotee”, I see you more as a sadly obsessed human being, sadly obsessed with fighting.

        And I only know ´you´ by your writings here. And never came to know, what your obvious deep hurt may be, that leads to such obsession. But I know some of my own deep hurts myself and the danger that that is when getting obsessed to solve it by trying to force others to change.

        It won´t happen this way.

        I wish you, Shantam Prem, and all of us readers and contributors, more Inner Peace in this New Year, and invitations for a change in that direction, that we are able to join. Some increasing ability and responsibility to embody such invitations ourselves!

        Madhu

  17. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    “Let others brag about the pages they have written, I am proud of the ones I’ve read” JL Borges. (I’m not proud of the latter ones either. Anonymous).

    “The fiercest war demons pretending to pray!” F. Battiato.

    I had a very little intelligent thought on what exactly ‘cult’ means:
    I could go on Wikipedia or Google but I preferred the hypnotic trance and to be crossed by Anacoluthon Spirit.

    Now, for example, He suggests to speak about reification, when usually, when not provoked to express an opinion, I would have danced and sung in one of my drag queen anti-cultism performances.

    Fortunately, the weak flame of awareness that still survives in my unconscious brings out the middle finger of the almighty Borat remembering that etymologically, ‘cult’ regards the external aspects of a religion (rituals, sacrifices, dances etc.) not the inner ones, metaphysical (the hypostatization therefore, it has nothing to do!).

    In fact, a religious ritual that proposes the induction of trance would not make sense without being referred to a metaphysical system or belief: it will not be a case that the Virgin Mary appear more often to Christians than to the animists of Borneo.

    At the end the question arises:
    Can anyone define ‘cult’ ignoring the inner aspects of a religion to which those exteriors are referred? No, worse, confusion between the two aspects, such as the use of the argument ‘reification’ shows.

    If she was not lazy and I would not look too Stalinist I’d ask Kavita about her experience with the Devil & Fascism.

    Ciao

    VF

    MOD:
    POST EDITED.

  18. frank says:

    To return to the thread subject…

    I don`t really believe in “ex-sannyasins”. I go back to my Osho/Hendrix analogy.

    After being exposed to and getting into that sound – that bolt from the blue- that quantum sonic leap – it is impossible to hear, experience (or play, in the case of musicians) the electric guitar in the same way again.

    Whatever the conscious attitude, whether you got rid of all your old albums, took the posters down off your wall or complained that he should have had a better backing band…

    Too late – it`s wedged into your soul forever!

    • Lokesh says:

      Rarely listen to Osho discourses but the other day I came across a five minutes youtube clip of the old man and found what he was saying was just what I needed to hear. Yes, indeed, wedged into your soul forever!

      • Arpana says:

        500 words comparing yourself to me, and deciding you’re above me. (Rationalising quitting really). You’re seriously rattled.

        • Lokesh says:

          Come on, Arpana, admit it, you;re not the sharpest knife in the drawer by a long shot. Be my guest and copy and paste this after changing your name to mine.
          It’s a stale number, but it seems to keep you amused and that is what counts…well…for little old you at least.

          • Arpana says:

            Yep. Rattled.

            • Lokesh says:

              Oh dear, Arpana is a bit cross. I do hope he does not throw one of his hissy fits and say that anything that does not fit his personal image is just a reflection and get really rattled.

              Arpana, let’s drop it. We will bore the other readers with this kind of school yard shite. Besides, you are not very good at it, being too grown up.

    • Arpana says:

      Get some backbone, Frank.

  19. shantam prem says:

    I don`t really believe in “ex-sannyasins”.
    (Faceless Frank)

    In a broader sense, there is no ‘ex-cultist’.
    Even when people pass through ‘de-culting’ therapies, shades remain, for the reason that beginning was alluring, falling in love with the cult founder is the entry gate to the new world of trust.

    In that sense, it is very common occurring to say, experiences are wedged into soul forever. If it is not with Guru A then with B,C,D,E….

  20. kusum says:

    Women are more emotional & less logical. They act through emotions – good or bad. And also women are easy to be manipulated.

  21. kusum says:

    Ma Yoga Mukta (Greek) has passed away on 30th December, at age of 87.