The World has only a few religious hotshots who can bring hope and trust into other people´s hearts without the covert intention to misuse their trust.
This, I think, is one main reason of Mother Meera´s lasting impact on hundreds of thousands of western people. The whole structure and the work around her is so simple, in simplicity lies its beauty and most probably the authenticity.
Last Sunday, during the silence after the love-making, my friend says delicately, “Would you like to come for Mother Meera´s Darshan?
Crisply, I answered, ” No!”
She asked, “Why?”
Now I was out of silence back into the active brain. “Because I don´t have the hunger. It is some kind of hunger which inspires us to go anywhere. Different people have different hungers. This is surely not my hunger to go to anyone for religious reasons.”
She understood and there was no further discussion.
Basically, since I’ve known her these last two or three months, there has always been mention about her spiritual mentor near Freiburg, and Mother Meera´s coming visit.
People who know me deeply have said many times, ” You change your decisions very fast.” My ex-wife used to say, “You change decisions faster than people change underwear. As a family and working woman, I cannot rely upon an inconsistent partner.”
To her I explained many times, one decision is based on many components. Once the new reasons emerge which are better than the previous ones I don´t feel ashamed to change them. I am more bounded by the sense of fairness and better judgement where all sides feel win-win.
Next day, during the silent sitting in the church and in the wellness area of the Fitness Centre, I was feeling, “Even if I don´t have hunger, what is the resistance? Why I don´t go playfully to Mother Meera’s darshan?
Two of my friends at sannyasnews have also asked me to go, why not accept their suggestion and feel the atmosphere?
If you can go to a Swingers Club why not to a gathering of nice people?
Are you afraid to bow down before a lady? Do you think you will become small in your eyes?”
And somewhere picture of MM was getting zoomed in the memory…
At 11 in the evening I checked the darshan schedule and within minutes booked my place for Tuesday, 4pm darshan meeting. There was a peace in me that I had taken a courage to do something new which is not bad in any sense. I don´t think it affects my loyalty to my path. Moreover, I became curious to see the effect, as during the ashram days, while working in Sannyas Initiation Office I had years of experience in high-energy atmosphere of devotion and trust where being feels at the right place at the right time.
Whole of Tuesday there was some curiosity, but not that of an investigative journalist. It was to see something new, and also the effect on me of surroundings and people.
There must have been around 350 people in the auditorium, most of them aged 45-80. Many children and their parents. The car numbers in the parking area were indicating many people had come from France as well as Switzerland. So a few people had driven two to three hours to reach there.
From the participants’ energy it was clear they are well versed in spiritual literature, meditation practice and some kind of connection with other Indian masters like Sai Baba and Babaji. I will say most of them looked like organic food eaters who have a sceptical attitude towards normal pharmaceutical medicines. I can imagine many people were there with the hope of faith healing.
There was no music. Everybody sitting silently. At exactly 4, Mother enters. Participants stand up to greet her. She reaches the stage. Sits on her chair and the process starts. Same process everywhere – Freiburg, Berlin, London, Paris, Sydney, New York.
One by one people sit before her. She puts the fingers on the head.
Few seconds later there is an eye connection, she nods with the eyes.
One moves, another comes, three persons per minute. In two hours around 350 people get one-to-one, non-personal connection, a kind of silent blessings.
If I say something about Mother Meera´s events in one sentence I can say, “Nothing can be simpler than this.” No theatrical dialogues but only silence, no devotional music but a feeling among the people some kind of healing and positive energy will be transmitted, a kind of loving installation of godly apps in the brain during those precious 17-20 seconds before her. One waits meditatively and patiently for two hours.
Surely there is something…I won´t say it is an all-in-one wonder tablet but whatsoever it is, it’s not the copy of anyone else.
P.S: A few other thoughts I would like to share during the course of comments.
Shantam, firstly I need to congratulate you for your decision & also thank you for sharing.
I can relate to your “I had taken a courage to do something new which is not bad in any sense. I don´t think it affects my loyalty to my path” – I had a similar experience when I decided to go for S.N. Goenka’s Vipassana. Only difference maybe is it’s not a person-specific phenomenon.
With Osho’s lineage (disciples) who have reputation as being enlightened, I somehow feel differently, the ones I have met have always been very informal and so there is a camaraderie, there is a kind of equanimous give-’n'-take, if there is any!
I’m impressed, even ‘uplifted’, at how you overcame your resistance and went there, Shantam, and also how open and unbiased your account is. Never knew you had it in you, Swamiji!
I agree that the beauty of Meera’s approach is its very simplicity, lack of hype and emotional over-kill.
One or two further comments:
In my experience of MM’s clientele, in Germany and London, there have been more younger people than you found in Freiburg, quite a few being in their 30s, a few aged 20-plus.
And while no doubt there are plenty with experience of other Indian teachers (but not that many sannyasins) my sense has been that many come from various ‘New Age’ healing and personal growth backgrounds.
I wouldn’t say there are general expectations of “faith healing”, although she says she does “send Light” to wherever in a person she perceives it’s needed, including for the physical well-being of some.
By the way, did you go both days or just once?
Dear Satyadeva,
Thanks for appreciating my unbiased report coming from open heart.
May I request you to look with open heart my other reports which are political by nature. They too are unbiased and without any personal motive. Mirrors and photo cameras don´t lie. If we put our fears and greed aside, mirrors and cameras we all have.
During my first day at the event, the young organiser with whom I had lunch a few weeks ago was happily surprised to see me. Out of enthusiasm, she took me inside and offered a seat in the very first row and instructed, “Please remain in silence and no leg on the leg posture.” I answered politely, “Of course.”
Within a minute on the seat, a thought came: “Even in Osho discourses I was not sitting in the very first row. I am more comfortable in the back. From there I can watch the people.” Watching people is my main hobby and one source of my writing.
So I changed the sitting position from front to the third from last row. The collective energy was very simple and soothing, almost no trace of mind, and being one of the woman gazer swamis from Pune I can say there were very few women who had some kind of sex appeal!
It too was a good surprise that events were free of cost though there were boxes for donations.
After the event, fan merchandising products are sold like hot cakes. Most of the times, human heart wants to repay in one form or another. I too purchased one bag and a 2017 diary.
Afterwards, when we were in the restaurant, my friend told me, “You have not looked into Mother Meera´s eyes. When her hands went away from your head, you greeted her and moved away.”
I asked surprisingly, “Were you watching me?”
She said lovingly, “I was watching you all the time, even I saw you at a certain time dozing off. Maybe you were not aware about the whole process.”
I said to explain my position that it is my habit, I leave before someone says time to go.
She answered, “You should not think in this way with her. She is the leader of the event and she has planned in this way of few seconds of eye contact and then she nods lovingly to withdraw.”
I said, “In this case, I must come again tomorrow to complete the whole process.”
My friend answered, “It is a good decision. Many of us come both days.”
Next day, last event was between 1 and 3 PM. At the end of the event, when I came out from auditorium, I saw her getting into the car and driving away for another town or her home.
Your friend ‘rescued’ you there then, Shantam. So after seeing others (maybe many others?) going through the same process, you allowed yourself, at the very last moment, to just get up out of the way of the ‘main event’, eye-contact.
Anyway, you made it in the end, so congratulations. Although that first one sounds like more resistance on your part, rather than to be conveniently explained away by putting it down to ‘habit’ (believe me, I know a lot about that particular topic, see below).
Similarly, your unease being in the front row, just a few yards from the action, preferring to stare at others from the back rather than enjoying that coveted position and, perhaps, ‘watching’ your inner experience, as well as having the opportunity to watch MM ‘at work’ and ‘imbibe the energy’. In such a situation, why bother studying others beyond a bit of understandable curiosity?
My first time with MM my friend and I were also shown to the front and we could hardly believe our luck. In those days one chose when to go forward for the personal darshan and I couldn’t bring myself to do it until the very end, when no one else was waiting and it was ‘now or never’…She remained waiting, looking down, the seconds ticked past…and I jumped forward! ‘Story of my life’ in a way (and not always making it).
As for your ‘political’ comments being “unbiased and without any personal motive”, I’m afraid I’m far from convinced, Shantam. I’m not going into all that again here, but I suggest that’s more food for reflection on your part (though without any sense that you’ll take the slightest bit of notice, as I suspect truly gazing into THAT really would be just too threatening).
Dear Madhu, thank you.
Yes, it seems that in such emptiness we could share silence through a song or hear one hand clapping, and some places help to go in.
The silent place I could have shared with Mother Meera was in the link (Aurobindo samadhi, very shanti) because I read that she was connected with the Indian Plato.
This song is for you, about the sea, our little boat called Feeling, fear and joy for the travel, life…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69mFixWq4bE
Hug,
VF
P.S:
After 6 years without a job, in this financial dictatorship (euro), sometimes I forget to play my guitar and sing…so, in your way you remind me to drop the cross.
Yes, very good news, Veet Francesco, that you pick up your guitar again and play and sing…
You know today, Sunday, crispy, frosty, sunny, autumn Sunday, the streets in central Munich have been resonating with songs from every nook and corner by the street musicians; playing alone or together as small bands. Then home again, I listened to the song you posted. Beautiful. And don´t forget your guitar again, will you?
As far as the “cross” is concerned, you feel, I would say, that many are hanging on and in such circúmstances.
And there is a way out. Always.
Madhu
Dear Kavita,
I was enjoying the taste of your expression, “Not a person-specific phenomenon.” Maybe it is not a sentence but an adjective, though in my opinion quite a significant expression to show the dual reality of living gurus and departed ones.
Many sannyasins who came in contact with Osho during His early days still live in the memories of those person- specific phenomena of energy darshans and small wise talk. People around Mother Meera feel the same.
And it was an astonishing experience to see that one does not need to write many scholarly books and hundreds of audio videos to attract people. One does not need to be photogenic like Osho to sell photos.
Main source of Mother Meera Foundation is sale of her photos, calendars, diary, pens, incense sticks and just two audios of Mantra Singing. During last few years I have come across a few friends who have her photo at their altar table.
When she walked towards the stage and when I was looking at her from my audience chair my impression was, “Just like any one of millions of housewives from South India going for daily vegetable shopping.” This very simplicity, but can any of those millions of housewives get the idea to be divinely incarnated?
Can any one of us have the courage to create a running machinery of attracting people and blessing them? Those rares who believe find their ways too. One does not need to be some kind of genius and super-smart for that.
“Can any one of us have the courage to create a running machinery of attracting people and blessing them?”
if you are asking me, then I say, if one is inclined towards that then maybe yes. At the same time now, I would not bother about all of that as I totally understand it is an existential phenomenon, as mostly all other happenings whenever they exist or even don’t exist!
Good account, Shantam. And a great surprise to read something from you that is not tilted by one of your ‘agendas’.
I have never been to Mother Meera, but know people who have and who seem to have retained their sannyas, but also found her darshan helpful.
Over the years I have sat with a number of teachers, and listened to quite a few others. The ones that I can connect to have been mainly those touched by Osho in some way.
Satyam Nadeen was particularly important for me, he wrote ‘From Onions To Pearls’ and was incarcerated for many years in an American prison. He told the assembled in a London Meeting in 1999, “You can do it yourself, you don’t need to see me again, and I will not visit this place again. Just form darshan/satsang circles of your own on a democratic basis, and ‘create’ something.”
I am still grateful for those words. I believe he is still alive, but has ‘retired’.
About Masters and mastering the silence…and as an addict of the wine of paradox:
Though
“Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.” (LW)
and
“The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao” (LT),
Out of compassion something could be said about that nectar:
“Words are the container, the silence the content.” (O).
I haven’t yet met Mother Meera, but maybe we shared the same silent place…
http://sabda.sriaurobindoashram.org/catalog/show.php?id=eNews802
http://intyoga.online.fr/allsilnc.htm
What you felt, Shantam Prem, about “healing and positive energy” reminds me of my meeting with Sai Baba and with another Indian Mother, Amma. If so, asking miracles – a quite demanding mood. I don’t know if men and women are separated there too; if so, not at all a swingers’ club.
Thank you,
VF
http://www.sannyas.wiki/index.php?title=This_Precious_Moment_(music_track)
“I haven’t yet met Mother Meera, but maybe we shared the same silent place…” (Veet Francesco)
How I feel it, Veet Francesco, we all share the Silence, if we are silent.
Yet to take and to integrate what wants to be seen and dissolved while growing up, needs good company, I would say.
And what a beautiful song of ´ours´ you have added in your post…thank you.
Madhu
Thanks, Veet, for your contribution.
The main problem of people like Mother Meera, and perhaps the others you mention, and to which you faintly allude, is not their capacity to teach through silence, but the whole trip around miracles and healings, etc, that some say happen in their presence, and which are not really discussed.
It seems to me, for example, the encouraged practice of sending Mother some summary of life problems in a letter appeals to those who are still not fully mature. Even if a miracle by some happenstance occurs it still disempowers as the truth can never be achieved logically as to the claims for miracles or not.
When I first met Osho I was very impressed by the fact that he never encouraged such things or such thinking. Clearly, here was a man who invited one to a kind of final maturity in which one was in the ordinary sense fully responsible. In my blueprint, this responsibility is not the end of spiritual life, but the beginning.
Hence the feeling around the people around such types of ‘Masters’ is always that of ‘children’. Maybe very nice children, but all the same, those in a way disguised from themselves, and who throw responsibility on to someone else.
From medication to meditation…
Dear Parmartha, thank you.
To Mother Meera I can’t allude, just I don’t know her.
Let me be more accurate about the ashrams, spiritual or just religious places I visited: I learned something everywhere, about myself. I feel gratitude and compassion for the innocent people that I met there.
We know that meditation is a luxury and around us sometimes people are starving or have no money for medication, something quite more objective than ego.
In those places, I mean usually before ‘their feeling’ to be became ‘mainstream’ arises, with its issues of power and arrogance, I loved to share food, seva and bhajan with them, sharing Osho in some cases.
About ‘miracles’…
I saw a few. India is a big buddhafield and in the begining the high siddhis’ activity could have been for me a limit or an ‘easy device’ to short-cut, sweet in the beginning…Then ‘miracles’ are very cheap, even not worthy of mention or quickly forgotten when the colourful, precious gifts of an opening heart give shelter to those who are longing for them. Miracles were not fortuitous if Gautama was a prince…
But from an objective perspective it could be good to be a king…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-2h4XnKZ3g
I know the hope before the third world war is the new man, born from the meeting of the two approaches of East (inward) and West (outward), without confusing the ingredients…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWxR4onaxo
Thanks, Veet.
Both videos held me and both were sort of relevant, and both funny!
The second reminded me of the ‘range’ of discrimination in human beings. There are so many species of stupidity, and whilst all should be treated equally, certainly not all are equal.
Your reminder that all around those who are having the privilege of meditation in their ashrams and places of dwelling, there are many, many more who simply struggle for their daily bread, or simply don’t have the money for the medications they might need to stay alive. This latter is worthy of the deepest contemplation.
Swami Veet claims to have witnessed a few miracles, writing in such a way as perhaps to indicate that miracles are no big deal. The definition of what a miracle represents is an event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.
Having ascertained that, I request that Veet describes a couple of the miracles he witnessed, which should not pose a problem, seeing as how he has seen a few.
I request this in order to gauge a number of things, for example what a miracle represents in Veet’s life, even though deemed cheap and hardly worth a mention in his world view.
VF, wtf! I so agree with Parmartha.
Bbtw, the 2nd link to me here in India is probably kaput now! Do you have a double to replace that link?!
Reading Shantam’s account of visiting Mother Meera I was left with a anti-climactic impression. Great build-up without actually much in the way of description as to what actually took place in Shantam’s world upon his brief encounter with MM.
I mean to say, Shantam goes into detail to the extent that he is telling us that he still has an active sex life, yet when it comes to the close encounter we are given the following: “kind of loving installation of godly apps in the brain during those precious 17-20 seconds before her.” Having opened with “No theatrical dialogues” it did not take Shantam long to return to quite the opposite.
This is a pity, because I believe Shantam has something worthwhile to say here. So Shantam, how about following up on your conclusion, as indicated in the following” “A few other thoughts I would like to share during the course of comments.”?
I for one will be interested to hear what you have to say, if you can manage to say it without theatrics. It would appear that you still have not learned that it is often the case, in this instance as far as writing is concerned, that less is more.
Thank God, you are back!
How sweet, Tan.
Good to see you back, Lokesh.
Next time when you want to be away for more than a day or two, write an application for leave!
Hi Shantam, in a roundabout way I did actually apply for leave. I did check in to SN to see what was cooking but somehow managed to keep my mouth closed for a while. Most of the topics were run of the mill, but when I saw you off to meet MM I could no longer resist.
Lokesh, every time you are on leave, things get a nasty turn at SN. Believe it or not, but it’s like a negative energy being poured here, it is not Oshowise anymore…
Which is really funny because you are so anti-guru, etc…but it’s how I feel.
I don’t understand either, but it’s like that! Somehow you protect the site!
Cheers!
“Lokesh, every time you are on leave, things get a nasty turn at SN. Believe it or not, but it’s like a negative energy being poured here, it is not Oshowise anymore…” (Tan)
You do have your own vioce to raise when stuff gets nasty, Tan – or don´t you?
Otherwise, the misuse of the term ´negativity´ and the pretence to know all about what is “Oshowise” and what not, plus the silence of a majority, lead to all that we can define as a fascist regime, be it historically on the Ranch in Oregon…or elsewhere.
So if there is something precious to protect, any individual is asked to stand up, isn’t (s)he? Not wait for a ´messiah to do it. And what I call the ´bashing-syndrome´ will not do it either.
Madhu
Madhu, you called Vivek, Vidhya! Not one, but many times, in two posts, till I corrected you! No old sannyasin would be mistaken! Something very wrong here! I call it negativity!
I am not saying Lokesh is the SN saviour, I am just saying with him, things get in balance…
By the way, fascist, my ass…
Lokesh is here, where is Yogi?
“By the way, fascist, my ass…” (Tan)
Tan, I never claimed to be an ´old´sannyasin, and it´s true, I did a mis-writing the name of Vivek. However, as I said, I often miss your own stance here; you mostly come up and let the boys do the ´hit´, if it is necessary, and then you even ask for more, don´t you?
I don´t like that. And was already wondering what kind of aggressive reaction you would choose.
So that was it. Is it?
Madhu
P.S:
Btw, Tan, by not being “old” I mean not belonging to some of the inner circles that are often of intrigues and power plays, pretending nowadays and very much bragging about how ´close´ they have been physically or (in an ever-doubtful way) actually more ´informed’.
Madhu
Coincidentally, Tan, I was thinking up a new thread that began with that wee sign they had outside Buddha Hall in Poona 1: Be positive, transcend mind; be negative, self-destruct.
I would not describe myself as holding an anti-guru stance. I am more anti-parrot, anti-crutch and anti-stupidity.
@Lokesh:
Forgive me but I don’t understand if you are speaking with me or with your audience…it should be because of my low siddhi activity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp7OqkHF1KY
Do you really want to “gauge a number of things, for example what a miracle represents” in my life? Trying to know me in this indirect way and through this ‘controversial’ topic amongst all the things I said sounds not so polite. But I respect if you are not interested in the voice of my heart.
Ciao
P.S:
I know “without Love I would be just a charlatan” (Jovanotti)
http://lyricstranslate.com/it/tutto-l039amore-che-ho-all-love-i-have.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3HwnYbU_1A
P.P.S:
Such strange things happen in this world: sannyasin (I suppose) who sees connection between God and miracles, or who doesn’t see quotation marks where they are and sees them where don’t (Love), but are concerned (nosy?) about almost forgotten things.
‘Having ascertained that’, I would like to know if the sannyasin above has any opinion about Michael Talbot’s vision on the miracles topic, to show me his epistemological sensitivity, between Popper and Kuhn, Bohm and Einstein…just to help me to find an explanation of the things out there, weirder than ‘guessing’ names on the train of people I met for the first time…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vooaaYnW-VU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3O-reEHVss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTpFWiEx3eo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZlSl0EqFis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4Xlcn6sDPE
MOD:
VF, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN (IN YOUR P.P.S.), PLEASE?
and sees them where don’t (Love),
@MOD
Re Syntax:
Mmm…maybe I should have written ‘aren’t’ (not “don’t”).
I meant where the quote marks are not there (Love).
Semantics:
Re Love: Around the word “love” I didn’t put quote marks. I meant my sharing before to be ON the topics of “miracles” and “love” as IN Love.
I heard or read Osho say: “addresses change but the love letter is the same.”
Veet, looks like a smokescreen covering the fact that you do not wish to answer the question on a personal level. I suspect because you cannot actually deliver the goods. How come I am not surprised? I did not follow any of the links you posted because I asked you a personal question, not somebody else.
Pic of mega-dynamic in London yesterday. Maybe another adventure for our roving reporter Shantam….
There were synchronicities, etc. living in Osho’s Buddhafield. I would never call them miraculous, but I know there are those who did. For example, meeting just the right person at the right time, etc.
There were changes of consciousness sitting within Osho’s field of force, but I never saw UFOs, though some claimed to have!
But there definitely never were miracles in the normal sense of the word, and I think that was intentional on the part of the Master. He didn’t want people hanging around to be healed, or some such.
“He didn’t want people hanging around to be healed, or some such.”
(Parmartha)
How do you know that, Parmartha?
Madhu
PM, it all depends on how you look at it. I would say that the miraculous was commonplace around Osho. He gave eyesight to the blind. He helped the crippled dance. The miraculous happened without the actual act of performing miracles. Maybe I am exaggerating. I probably am.
I witnessed at least a couple of instances where something supernatural was going on that had to do with Osho. Not sure if I would go so far as to say that I witnessed miracles, though. That is my point with Veet. He says he saw a few miracles. If that were the case one would imagine, quite naturally, that one would wish to share it, to spread the good news etc. Instead, he avoids sharing anything other than some internet links.
I reckon his “I have seen a few miracles” number is a subterfuge to make him appear special. I might be proved wrong, if he comes up with the goods, but somehow I doubt it.
Thanks, Lokesh, and good to see you back.
I saw people sort of transformed, etc. also particularly in Poona 1. People’s mental health became markedly changed.
What I was driving at was the unfortunate way that some mystics become presented, particularly by history, and where those around them experienced ‘cures’ of physical diseases, etc. Seeing the lame walk, etc. This still goes on, including in Christianity.
I never saw any of that around Osho, and as he never gave any energy to that sort of thing I assume he himself had no wish for that to happen.
It may well be that some folk did experience cures of physical problems around Osho, but I would say that was due to an increase simply of feelings of well-being.
Actually, if we are really honest some westerners did experience declines in physical health around Osho between 1974 and 81. This was because of the poor sanitation and water-borne diseases living in a tropical climate to which many were not used. Dysentery, hepatatis, etc. were not at all uncommon and we would be silly to deny it.
What used to annoy me both then and now, was therapists saying that people who got one of these diseases were suffering from “resistance”. A clear example of nonsense if ever there was one!
I don’t think that Osho ‘deliberately’ avoided ‘performing’ miracles. The truth is, he probably didn’t know how to do such things intentionally, and he wasn’t born with the ability to use such powers as some apparently are.
Dipa Ma, a buddhist master from Calcutta, was encouraged to learn how to use superpowers after her initial self-realisation by her own teacher, who was very interested in these powers.
With intense concentration, she said she learned how to travel back in time and observe one of the Buddha’s discourses, and ‘duplicate’ her body so that she could be physically in more than one place at the same time.
It was also reported that she was seen to be levitating at one point.
After some time, Dipa Ma dropped messing around with these kind of powers because she said they involved ego, and later, as she reached a more refined state of enlightenment, and became a bit of a master, never encouraged that kind of thing, always instead encouraging her students to focus on witnessing and meditation, like Osho.
He wisely never encouraged anything of that nature, including ‘healing’, and focused solely on meditation.
SS says, “Osho wisely never encouraged anything of that nature, including ‘healing’, and focused solely on meditation.”
Perhaps SS does not know what he is talking about, but whatever the case, what he says is not true in this particular instance. Osho did encourage healing practices in his ashram.
Lokesh,
As long as Bhagwan/Osho took and was able to take care of the Therapriests and Healing Practitioners too, the statement of Swamishanti is quite right in my eyes and meets my experiences when I attended to be ´treated (long ago).
There and then, we met in giving in into a most vulnerable and open space and into the trust that there is always a space and realms which we can only surrender to. And know nothing much about. Then and there, miracles of a healing climate happened. I would say for both of us or all of all…
It´s quite something else when healing is a business and a merchandise (money) project. Or a power issue. That’s what Arpana and also Parmartha have been refering to, both in their very different ways.
Madhu
Once again. SS says, “Osho wisely never encouraged anything of that nature, including ‘healing’, and focused solely on meditation.”
During the 70s in Poona 1 there was a chap called Bodhidharma. Once a month after discourse, during the 10 day meditation camps, it would be announced after discourse that Bodhidharma would be doing a divine healing in Buddha Hall. I loved to participate in this healing session. Bodhidharma would get up on a table and hiss and appear like a fury from hell. Everyone present would go into a kind of mass catharsis. It was heap powerful wampum and great fun, and somehow purifying in a kind of ‘out, demons out!’ way.
Back then, Osho knew everything that was going on in his ashram. You think a divine healing taking place in Buddha Hall with many sannyasins screaming their heads off might have skipped the old boy’s attention? No, of course it didn’t. You think he did not encourage an early disciple like Bodhidharma to get up on that table and do his healing thing? Of course he did.
I worked in the ashram in the healing arts, doing individual sessions. To be honest, some of my clients at the time were a lot more healed than I was, but that was also part of the process. There were dozens of people like myself doing healing sessions, in the sense that we were endeavouring to help people experience life in a more healthy and open and more spiritually-orientated way. You think Osho was unaware of this taking place in a scene he created specifically for such purposes?
To say Osho ‘wisely’ never encouraged healing practices and focused solely on meditation is not true.
Hmmmm, Lokesh,
That´s a very juicy story of your history ´book´ from Pune 1. You probably wouldn´t believe it, but your own memory is not that far from mine, but our conclusions may differ.
Thanks for sharing.
Madhu
Osho authorised several experimental forms of healing and therapies in Poona 1, alongside his own devised meditations. But I guess he was secretly laughing at the ‘hissing’ mass healing event that you describe in Buddha Hall.
And later, he made many changes and introduced his own structures and took the piss out of many of the new-age ‘healing’ practices that were developing in the 80s.
The point I was making was that Osho encouraged his people to avoid getting distracted by siddhis, superpowers, astral travel and all that crap, and instead focus on meditation.
Nowadays, as Madhu pointed out too, there are many people who feel that they are ‘helping’ people, or even ‘healers’, who carry this kind of mentality and ego, even when they have not been invited.
So this is very different to people going to different people in the experimental ashram.
I reckon a lot of that was just to occupy people. Entertainments. Were a lot of tourists in Poona 1, on reflection.
Was a lot going on about us being dragged out of our comfort zones as well, as if dragging our sorry arses all the way to India wasn’t enough.
Here’s a brand new thought: Meditation is introvert. The entertainments were ‘extroverting’. He talks a lot about finding a balance between the two.
SS says, “I guess”. Which brings me to the conclusion that is all he can do in this case, because he wasn’t actually there.
Am I correct, SS?
Bit rich coming from you. Nobody is more opinionated about what happened in Oregon than you, and your weren’t there, weren’t even wearing a mala and red at the time.
I was there, but I got there when Osho had already gone into silence, in the ‘gauchami’ phase, 1981. And I was not at the mass ‘hissing’ event.
SS, only pulling your leg and thanks for your honest response.
Your comment brought it home to me that nobody really knew who Osho was. There are as many versions of Osho as there are people who in some way met him. Then again, is it not a bit like that with everyone we meet in life?
Arpana, I have given your comment some consideration and have to admit that you are right. I suppose what it boils down to is how conscious you are, fashion-conscious, to be more precise.
I gave up wearing a mala and red clothes during the mid-80s. Back then, the locals on Ibiza called sannyasins ‘butanos’, orange being the colour of butane gas cylinders. There was also a cash incentive. I sold my mala to a rich Indian for a four figure sum. I used the money to buy a Rolex Submariner, a wee memento to remind me that I am an ex-sannyasin.
You are fortunate living where you do, because you can get away with wearing a cheap watch, even to the point of feeling chuffed about it. Same goes for wearing red clothes and a mala, English people’s eccentricity lets you get away with swanning around town in a red robe and mala. Here on Ibiza that would be seen as being sooooooooo 70s, and very embarrasing. On Ibiza you have to keep up appearances or you will become a laughing stock on the social scene, as in, “OMG! You’re wearing a cheap watch!”
Arpana, you do not know how lucky you are having the social freedom that you do. In England you can be a real sannyasin and wear red and orange clothes as much as you wish. On Ibiza you simply can’t get away with that.
Rule Britannia!
@ Lokesh. 2 November, 2016 at 9:03 am
You are a master of rationalising your own inadequacy.
I’ll give you that!
Arpana, funny you should say that, my father used to say exactly the same thing to me as a child, when he was out on parole. I think this might have left a very strong impression on my subconscious.
I have noticed that people may attempt to mask or hide their feelings of inadequacy from themselves and from others in a number of ways. Some people may isolate themselves socially or otherwise close themselves off to the advances of others for fear of being truly ‘seen.’ Others may develop compulsions, such as over-spending or overeating, or buying cheap watches, or even collecting photos of Mother Meera as a way to cope with feelings of inadequacy.
And some people project their feelings of incompetence onto others as a way to avoid difficult emotions, or they may attempt to control others or their environment in order to regain a sense of control when inadequacy leaves them feeling powerless.
People who abuse their intimate partners, for example (I do not know if you are in a relationship) may do so because feelings of inadequacy compel them to blame their partners for any personal and relationship challenges and use abuse as a form of power.
How I counter my feelings of inadequacy, when I feel inclined, is to put into practice a wee technique I learned in an Aum Marathon, back in ’76. I sit on a cushion, wrap my arms around myself and shout out loud, “I am lovable.” After about an hour, it usually does the trick and leaves me feeling relaxed, contented and loved.
You might want to try this at home. I suggest having a friend around in case somebody needs to answer the phone etc. when you are in the midst of hugging yourself. Different strokes, as they say. It just feels good to share this. Thanks for creating the possibility, Arpana.
I might add that my comments on SN are not intended to be a substitute for professional advice, diagnosis, medical treatment, or therapy. Always seek the advice of your physician or qualified mental health provider with any questions you may have regarding any mental health symptom or medical condition. Never disregard professional psychological or medical advice nor delay in seeking professional advice or treatment because of something you have read on SN. Namaste.
@ Lokesh 2 November, 2016 at 11:29 am
Hilarious. When it comes to avoiding looking at yourself you can give Shantam a run for his money
Yes, Arpana, sad but true. I am sure you are speaking from experience.
I have even tried hugging trees to avoid avoiding looking at myself. Have you ever hugged a tree, Arpana?
Hug a tree, and one day you will come to know
that it is not only that
you have hugged the tree
but that the tree also responds,
the tree also hugs you.
If you have not tried tree hugging I highly recommend it. Love….
Tree hugging.
Is there no aspect of life that you aren’t a big head about?
MOD: POST EDITED.
Arpana, you have taken what I said about tree hugging the wrong way. I just wanted to share my positive experiences with you in that dimension to perhaps help you overcome your inadequacy problem.
I know how difficult that can be. I can’t help it if I am really good at hugging trees. Some of my tree hugging buddies say I am a natural at it, so maybe you are barking up the wrong tree and you should go and see Mother Meera about your inadequacy problem. It was you who brought the subject of inadequacy up, not me.
@ Lokesh 2 November, 2016 at 5:15 pm
“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our Light, not our Darkness, that most frightens us. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.”
(Nelson Mandela)
“What used to annoy me, both then and now, was therapists saying that people who got one of these diseases were suffering from “resistance”. A clear example of nonsense if ever there was one!”
People get into Sannyas because they haven’t got it, which often includes the delusion they have. Some never got past the delusion they’ve got it all sussed out. Then and now.
Hardly surprising really, with a lot of people talking a lot of bollocks alongside the good stuff.
Life is ‘dark’ and ‘light’. Nice and nasty. Isn’t Sannyas about learning to ‘dance in the rain’ rather than run indoors and complain?
Yay, Arps! XX
I’d start with the important things (censorship?):
@Kavita:
Thank you.
It’s the same here from here…try to put full or part of the title in the search engine field: ‘Hilarious Fake Miracle healing in INDIA’s church – Christianity’.
Or go to the youtuber channel who edited it.
Now the funny ones:
Pauli’s effect: How to deliver fresh air to lazy, doubtful (bullying?) people’s lives.
In a comment I wrote before:
“About ‘miracles’…
I saw a few. India is a big buddhafield and in the begining the high siddhis’ activity could have been for me a limit or an ‘easy device’ to short-cut, sweet in the beginning…Then ‘miracles’ are very cheap, even not worthy of mention or quickly forgotten when the colourful, precious gifts of an opening heart give shelter to those who are longing for them. Miracles were not fortuitous if Gautama was a prince…”
Then Lokesh (who quotes Poona 1: ”Be positive, transcend mind; be negative, self-destructive”) claims:
“I would not describe myself as holding an anti-guru stance. I am more anti-parrot, anti-crutch and anti-stupidity”.
And leaves a comment on that special part from one of my comments, saying:
“Swami Veet claims to have witnessed a few miracles, writing in such a way as perhaps to indicate that miracles are no big deal. The definition of what a miracle represents is an event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God. Having ascertained that, I request that Veet describes a couple of the miracles he witnessed, which should not pose a problem, seeing as how he has seen a few. I request this in order to gauge a number of things, for example what a miracle represents in Veet’s life, even though deemed cheap and hardly worth a mention in his world view.
“He says he saw a few miracles. If that were the case one would imagine, quite naturally, that one would wish to share it, to spread the good news etc. Instead, he avoids sharing anything other than some internet links. I reckon his “I have seen a few miracles” number is a subterfuge to make him appear special. I might be proved wrong, if he comes up with the goods, but somehow I doubt it.”
Now…
Has anybody noted the quotation marks, the difference between my experience of ‘miracles’ and Gautama’s “Miracles”?
And the relationship of “miracles” with siddhis? Instead, where did I indicate the connection of “miracles” with God or Osho?
Lokesh, go on with your “suspect” and you’ll never be “surprised”, I “suspect”. I will be “not surprised” about that, I “suspect” – this is not “special” at all.
And go on with your creative reframing, deleting (words, links, books, Teachers) and distorting what I said.
Yes, definitely a “smokescreen”, all this stuff; fresh air is needed, a walk in the park could help. Fresh air for the mind of a wise ant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7etsh4HwG78
Ciao,
VF
MOD:
POST EDITED.
Veet says, “About ‘miracles’…I saw a few.”
Then I ask if he could describe a couple of those miracles he witnessed. Instead, he delivers everything but a description of the miracles he claimed to have seen. Why? Could he be telling whoppers? My suspicious mind says it is very possible.
@ sw. veet (francesco) 1 November, 2016 at 3:18 pm:
Bravo for your post.
Real miracle is when a faithful follwer jumps from the 7th floor with the photo of his/her great saviour in his hand and angels come out from the 3rd floor flat to hold the person in their arms.
From the time men were in the caves, few human beings were always there to create some kind of healing magic.
When there is no way out or in search for shortcuts, most of us don´t mind to give a try to someone´s ‘light energy’ .
Fact still remains, in case of headache, 95 people out of 100 can get the desired effect from aspirin. In case of belief, 5 out of 100 will also get the healing. These 5 will create mouth-to-mouth publicity among 1000 others.
“It’s the same here from here…try to put full or part of the title in the search engine field: ‘Hilarious Fake Miracle healing in INDIA’s church – Christianity’.Or go to the youtuber channel who edited it.”
Well, VF, thank you for sharing the title of the vid, that was easy to find. That also means there was no need to go to any editor. Anyway, thank you for mentioning that.
Thank God I found the link you referred to or else I would be still wondering about the missing link as this censorship issue is such a killer at times!
I thought Shantam was the missing link.
You bet, Lokie!
@Lokesh, my heart is speaking in this way:
We don’t know each other and I don’t want to hurt you or anybody of our Brotherhood. So, for me this conversation, sometimes harsh, makes sense only if we agree about the frame to put on it.
From my side, what we are doing is to witness the gratitude for the boundless love and celebration that has given us the Master. And this should be visible also in our mutual “fuck you!”. Because deep down, in our surrender to Him we don’t care so much about who is wrong and who is right. We don’t care because we know the grace in our Friends who are leaving…There remains so little time after all the “I Love You” we need to say.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Tj6OXO7Xfs
If you agree about the frame go on…my mind, a couple of hours before was speaking in this way:
Lokesh claims that:
1) I say bullshit because he’s going on to repeat that I don’t talk to him about things HE thinks are worthy to be shared, despite his suspicious mind suspecting them to be false.
2) He is anti-crutches: When it seems to me that his way (the using of “us” in place of “me”) to defend the orthodoxy about what should be true or not in this almost relaxed Osho context, plus the clapping of someone to greet his polemic participation, could be a clear sign of his ‘delivery-on-crutches’ attitude.
3) He is anti-stupidity: this means, if he’s not a masochist, that he should have a high IQ; then, as a sannyasin, what to do with the compassion for the people with low IQs – bulliyng? Could this prevent him from completing the mystical journey from head to heart?
4) He is not anti-guru: relax, guys!
Lokesh…
Do you see any parrot around, mashed by crutches, acting as a smart guru, who doesn’t pay attention to his contradictions?
Love,
VF
P.S:
Next song is about Love which has no explanation (for my IQ):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feSJCAgWKKk
Veet, it’s not my fault that you have a low IQ. Why blame me? Many of the regulars here at SN have a low IQ and you don’t hear them complaining about it. They just carry on regardless and get the job done. Take Arpana, for example, he is endlessly copy and pasting other blogger’s comments and changing the name to the author’s. He actually believes he is being smart, witty, clever in doing such a mundane and repetitive practice. Nobody minds, because none of us are perfect. That is just the way God planned it.
All I asked for was for you to share a couple of descriptions of the miracles you have witnessed. Instead, you fire off another broadside of mumbo-jumbo, including a link to someone called Laxmi, who suffered from some kind of eating disorder. I only watched it for thirty seconds. Too depressing! I like technicolour, not black and white. This is the twenty-first century, in case you haven’t noticed.
Why not go and see Mother Meera or hug a tree? Perhaps it is a case of you being unsurrendered and resistant to Osho. Really not my problem. I was just looking for some new stories to tell my gay pals next time I visit the sauna.
Sw. Veet Francesco,
In my observation, you have not even introduced yourself properly and yet go on bombarding with enthusiastic posts which I feel as skin-deep only.
It is not the words which matter but the people behind them.
Shantam, bravo for your post. Mother Meera’s energy transference is doing wonders for you. Why not write about it in that diary you bought? It could be a best-seller.
Shantam
In my observation, you have no credibility and yet go on bombarding us with posts which are skin-deep only.
It is not the words which matter but the people behind them, which is why you have no credibility here.
I see no major issue of substance here.
Like Lokesh, I attended some of Boddhidarma’s sessions. I saw it as a sort of casting out of devils, but I never saw it as the processing of miraculous events. It seemed to me just part of the rich tapestry of Poona 1 which might contribute to the resilience of people’s mental health and enjoyment and fun.
Where gurus, etc. lay on hands, and appear to produce healing miracles, like making the lame walk, etc., that seems to me to be of a different type of order. And this did not happen around Osho.
The sessions with Bodhidarma lasted not more than 18 months and Osho dropped them after a comparatively short time.
I sometimes wonder whether the disagreements of bloggers here are nothing to do with the issue, or issues at hand, and maybe this should be looked at.
I would think a ‘Chinese whispers’ syndrome has occurred, coupled with the fact that some such ordinary goings-on often seemed ‘miraculous’ at the time. (Factor in the human capacity to exaggerate. Hmm!!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Pwfi89Z3I
We are almost certainly observing/participating in a hagiographic phenomenon.
From what I gather, Mother Meera does not make an enthusiastic public display of miracles and healings, unlike Sai Baba, although there are reports of such things from her people or people that have been to her.
Swamishanti,
You are quite right, I ´d say, in your estimation you shared (at 11.12 pm) yesterday; it meets my own experience.
Otherwise, for whomsoever it may be of interest, there are these two little books of Q&As with the Mother, and in ‘Answers II’ you’ll find Her own words about Her Sharing in the Darshan (pages 37-48). And what Her Darshan is about.
I won´t quote it here. It´s not meant for the just curious onlookers who then want to brag about stuff they didn´t or don´t want to experience themselves, and above that, it´s requested not to quote for a just ´mental´ discussion.
My own experience with myself, the very few times I have attended these Darshans – at the old place in Thalheim and then at Schaumburg Castle, and especially lately here in Munich, have been how fragile – if not distorted – my roots in the Silence Realms nowadays are.
And how ´easily´ I am distracted and fragmented and letting panic and fear rule my moves. I also know that from everyday life, but attending Darshan as with Mother Meera, is quite a strong mirror to that, and was and is not easy to take.
I am grateful to the sannyasins who brought me to Thalheim once, long ago, and also grateful to Satyadeva here, who informed me last year that the Mother is travelling now, which I didn’t know.
Yet seeing again how difficult, if not impossible so often for me, to cope with the changes of ‘Information-Technical-Age’ and strenghten my roots without cutting them myself again and again in the strong winds of distraction.
But what I like to say is that Masters of Meditation are working together; that was and is my impression coming from my pretty small plant of confidence, or call it trust.
And also that it is quite a challenge to learn to differentiate as everybody is quite different, I presume, what´s nourishing the Soul and what´s not.
With Love,
Madhu
Parmartha comments:
“I sometimes wonder whether the disagreements of bloggers here are nothing to do with the issue, or issues at hand….”
I have often thought this to be the case e.g. the persistent ridiculing of some contributors that frequently takes place here on SN would seem to indicate some kind of murky psycho-agenda on the part of the ridiculers. (Please note that I, in my humble honesty, do not exclude myself from being above this kind of behaviour!).
However, in an attempt to put a positive slant on the proceedings, I would recommend taking a look at the work of Dr. Brad Blanton, who gives workshops on what he calls ‘Radical Honesty’, which is described in Wikipedia in the following manner:
“Radical Honesty is a technique and self-improvement program developed by Dr. Brad Blanton PhD. The program asserts that lying is the primary source of modern human stress, and speaking bluntly and directly, even about painful or taboo subjects, will make people happier by creating an intimacy not possible while hiding things.
The RH technique includes having practitioners state their feelings bluntly, directly and in ways typically considered impolite.”
Sound familiar?
With warm regards,
Ashok
https://aeon.co/ideas/the-desire-to-fit-in-is-the-root-of-almost-all-wrongdoing
Yes, thank you Arpana, for supplying a very interesting and pertinent article as a follow-on to my piece.
Rgds,
Ashok
@Lokesh
I’d remind you that to enforce the ‘netiquette’ is not your job here; consider too the probability that Ma or Sw. MOD could be inspired by his/her policy re someone not completely correct.
Ok, you go on with your fictions and contradictions too long to show how many; I don’t know if as an effect of some kind of peculiar gestalt or simply by intellectual dishonesty.
I’m very happy that my way to express in words doesn’t affect you, so the next time you bother me with rhetorical questions I’ll avoid blessing you with my enthusiastic “Fuck you!”.
Yes, people behind words are important and sometimes coincide and sometimes not with them, and when they coincide, I mean not in an absolute way but in a unique, special way, it is just because we see the connections that make it possible.
And till now you are not a surprise for me, the man who is writing here is coinciding with the man around the campfire, sharing funny stories about ridiculous people who claims to do miracles, for this time (maybe) you can’t share about pathetic people who tried to explain it, so settle for that.
Ciao,
VF
P.S:
A good one, around a campfire, “Forgeting about the losses, exaggerating the wins.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmR-TnIRVyY
@Shantam Prem
Thank you…just close the mouth gently when you have nothing to say, it makes echoes of bullshit flying around.
@Parmartha:
Please, could you use a different wording of this sentence? (There may be something idiomatic that Google Translate doesn’t read). Or just the meaning. Thank you.
“I sometimes wonder whether the disagreements of bloggers here are nothing to do with the issue, or issues at hand, and maybe this should be looked at”.
MOD:
Parmartha thinks that some disputes between people at SN are not actually concerned with the issues ostensibly under discussion, but that essentially they’re about other matters. And so perhaps what such conflicts are really about should be looked at.
Veet, I am not interested in your links and I think everything you say is a cover-up to hide the fact that you told a lie by saying you had witnessed a few miracles, when in fact nothing like that has ever occurred in your life. Who are you trying to kid with your bullshit? Your self?
I think the key to this argument is that VF makes a distinction between miracles and siddhis, suggested first in his post of Nov. 1, 3.18pm, where he says:
“About ‘miracles’…
I saw a few. India is a big buddhafield and in the begining the high siddhis’ activity could have been for me a limit or an ‘easy device’ to short-cut, sweet in the beginning…”
And later, he stresses that he wrote ‘miracles’ not miracles, apparently to indicate that such events that he witnessed were ‘so-called’ miracles, not ‘actual’ ones.
Problem is that he doesn’t make this crystal clear and elucidate just what differentiates these two modes of ‘wondrous happenings’.
Which is compounded by considerable doses of a largely irrelevant outpouring of self-defensive hostility and references to “Love” and “Brotherhood” (not to mention the videos), emotional overload serving to obscure the central point in question – as it almost invariably does, causing unnecessary damage to all concerned, including the truth of the matter in question.
If you return to your experience, VF, the facts and your interpretation of them, then this impasse can dissolve very easily.
Miracles do happen.
Remember that time you went for Darshan, and were feeling really hungry, had to sit for three hours while someone next to you was quietly chanting “Meera Ma, Meera Om” the whole time and when you came out there was that hot-dog van that just miraculously appeared outside the venue?
That was Mother`s grace looking after you.
Remember that special discounted pork-pie you found in Lidl that you couldn`t believe your luck at the price?
That was no coincidence.
And it`s not always the big song and dance, exploding fireworks, golden eggs popping out the mouth, and large Afro approach of men like Sai Baba.
No, SS, sorry, you must have confused me with someone else. I got fish’n'chips from the van and a discounted apricot slice – from Holland & Barrett, not Lidl.
That is all very well, but deep fried Mars Bars is a Scottish invention and don’t try to tell me it isn’t.
Uuups, Swamishanti,
Quite a mouthful of crappy stuff left your keyboard at 1.43 pm. It is yours and yours alone, and doesn´t belong to whatever ´snack indulgences had been, have been, or are happening with anybody else, anytime, any place.
However, one point you made, I can relate to. Silence sometimes is very noisy. Inter-dependent we all are. It´s human.
Madhu
P.S:
I loved today what Satyadeva added to the thread at 4.45 pm:
“Out of such originally minor issues as the one in question (which basically boils down to inadequate communication) greater conflicts emerge, until everyone forgets what they were arguing about in the first place. And if you accept all that as “what makes people tick” then I suggest you’re part of the problem, not the solution.”
It´s for all of us, not only Ashok….
Yes indeed, my dearest Madhu!
I couldn’t agree more. Once again it would seem I have managed to bring out the best in him, and therefore I think I deserve some gratitude and recognition for my own personal sacrifice and ‘noblesse oblige’ in these crucially important matters, don’t you?
Perhaps on this occasion he could show himself ‘big enough’ to thank me for the loving service I have performed for him and for all attending here on SN, by administering a minor ‘bitch slap’ to his saintly and pure countenance, which then provoked the words of wisdom you so love and admire!
I remember reading in her `Answers` that Mother Meera doesn`t give her people any instructions on what kinds of food to eat, despite herself being vegetarian.
In India, I once met an old woman munching on a bone, sitting just outside a Durga temple.
“Jai Ma!” She greeted me.
“Bhagwan!” I said, and pointed to my mala.
“Bhagwan Satya Sai Baba!” She declared enthusiastically.
I had an image in my mind of Sai Baba in space, jumping through a hoop of fire, whilst popping golden eggs out of his mouth.
SS, would be a miracle if he was popping golden eggs through his ass.
Now, I don’t know why some of you guys are amazed that Mother Meera looks so ordinary. It’s not what enlightenment is all about?
Cheers!
Yes, Sai Baba could pop out golden eggs and produce golden lingams. And gave talks on superconsciousness on the side:
https://youtu.be/WGBjKaDf6zw
It would look odd if Mother Meera started popping out golden eggs or laying golden eggs under her seat at Darshan.
These days, it is the male Indian gurus that like to try to impress the disciples:
Sai Baba started materialsing sacred ash and revealing golden lingams.
Osho wasn`t to be outdone and started producing collections of Rolls Royces to get everyone`s attention.
So Sai started producing Rolexes and other things, which impressed a lot of people and earned many followers.
But Osho hit back by wearing his own scores of Rolexes and fake diamond watches.
Uuuups, Swamishanti,
You did it again….
SD, anchorman at SN’s service.
Besides, anyone who imagines India to be “a big Buddhafield” has to have fallen out of their pram as a baby and cracked the concrete pavement with their head. Just read an interesting article about a new trend in India: men paying to watch rape videos. Utterly depraved!
“…then this impasse can dissolve very quickly.”
To be honest, SD, old chap, I think you might be being a tad overly-optimistic here. Or to put it another way, more in keeping with the guidelines afforded by the ‘Radical Honesty’ approach, it would to all intents and purposes appear to me that you are a rather naïve individual lacking grounding and a true understanding of what really makes people tick.
I think the truth of my comments here are borne out by the reaction you have already provoked from Lokesh. He, it would seem to me, is much more interested in prolonging the emotionally-
charged “impasse” rather than accepting the ‘wise’ solution you have proffered to Veet.
I would speculate that the rather patronising and condescending position to both protagonists, which you have promoted your good self to, has managed to antagonise Lokesh further.
Consequently, and unsurprisingly, he (Lokesh) has launched a ‘bitch-slap’ in your direction, in addition to the on-going campaign of ‘bitch-slaps’ being launched in Veet’s direction.
I suggest, Ashok, that “patronising and condescending” be applied to your approach to my approach here!
I’m not quite as naive as you might think, although you might well regard any attempt to actually get to the truth of a dispute rather than witness the people concerned engaging and indulging in escalating mutual abuse as irrefutable evidence of this characteristic.
Out of such originally minor issues as the one in question (which basically boils down to inadequate communication) greater conflicts emerge, until everyone forgets what they were arguing about in the first place. And if you accept all that as “what makes people tick” then I suggest you’re part of the problem, not the solution.
What is leaving me terribly upset, I can’t sleep at night thinking about it, is that Veet told an obvious lie. I feel that he is trying to muscle in on my turf here on SN, because up until now this has been my domain entirely.
Everyone else on SN is radically honest. It makes me sick. Oh yes, we all know Shantam constantly contradicts himself, but he never actually deliberately lies in a conscious way like I do.
Veet should go back to his own country and tell the truth there. Then he will get a taste of his own medicine.
Again the hooligan baboons use their minds to indulge in a mass-debate on miraculous matters of which they know little, with less dignity than a one-legged psycho-analist in an ass-kicking contest in an Indian public toilet during rainy season during outbreak of dysentery!
Watch the absurdity of the mind which is nothing but mind! In the timeless words of my guru swami Gandoo, “Mind is as stupid as the people who have them.”
Sai Baba has done many miracles! I have experienced them myself!
When I entered his buggerfield, my bass chakra was vibrating for weeks afterwards!
And to have holy oil rubbed into balls by under-age disciples and to whip lingam in and out of robe with perfect sleight of hand that even close disciples, police, local judiciary, journalists and politicians could not see for years and years: Is that not an absolute miracle?
Certainly only possible in a buddhafield such as India! As it is written in holy Vedas: “Incredible India!” These miracles would never happen in the West because of low siddhi level of the nonces there!
But in mighty Bhorat we are too modest and humble to boast about these everyday miracles we experience in holographic universes…
This Italian mozarella buffalo should pay attention to sutras of his compatriot namesake:
“Miracles, I`ve seen a few
but then again..
too few to mention….”
Yahoo!
Hari Om!
Do-be-do-be-do!
There you are, readers of SN, a good laugh!
That’s what it’s all about!
Thanks, Yogi and Lokesh!
I loved the “Italian mozzarella buffalo”.
Ciao!
Ashok said,
“Or to put it another way, more in keeping with the guidelines afforded by the ‘Radical Honesty’ approach.”
I take it from the ‘tone’ of that remark, you’re a recent convert?
I’m sorry to disappoint you on this occasion, Arpana, but no, I’m not a recent convert. In fact, according to my dear darling mater, I took naturally to practising a blunt and impolite approach from a very early age.
She became very aware of my innate capacity for striking up intimate relationships based on RH on the day she took me to receive a polio vaccination – I must have been about 5 yrs old at the time. Well, all I can say is that I did not take too kindly to some strange bloke (a doctor), sticking a needle in my arm, so I reacted by trying to kick him in the balls – missed but got him on one of his tender shins instead!
As you can see, I was well ahead of the game before Dr Brad Blagton (PhD), decided to plagiarise my work.
@ Veet (Francesco)
BELOVED OSHO, WHAT IS A MIRACLE?
Sadhananda, it depends. To me, everything is a miracle. I never come across anything that is not a miracle; only miracles exist. Everything is such a surprise, it is so unbelievable! But if your eyes are closed, if your eyes are full of dust, if your mind is too knowledgeable, if you think you know all, then nothing is a miracle.
To know “I don’t know anything” makes everything a miracle. It depends on your inner state, it depends on you. And to live a life without miracles is not to live at all. You can have a million miracles every day, you are entitled to have them. But because you don’t know how to connect yourself with the miraculous, you are being cheated by stupid people.
Somebody produces a Swiss-made watch and you think this is a miracle. Then you become victims of ordinary magicians. Don’t be befooled.
The seed sprouting into leaves is a miracle – not somebody producing a Swiss-made watch out of nothing. That is just a trick, a very ordinary trick; street magicians are doing it all over the world. They are just simple people, not cunning people, otherwise you would have worshipped them.
While exploring the wilds of South America, a man was captured by savages. They were dancing excitedly around before killing him when the explorer had a bright idea. He would baffle them with magic. Taking a cigarette-lighter from his pocket, he shouted, “I make fire!”
With a flick of the thumb, the lighter burst into flame. The savages fell back and gazed in wonder.
“Magic!” cried the explorer.
“It certainly is,” said the chief. “It’s the only time I ever saw a lighter work on the first try.”
It depends on you, what you call a miracle. As far as I am concerned, there is nothing else except miracles. And drop these stupid kinds of miracles.
Mulla Nasruddin and his wife are sitting one Sunday listening to the radio, when this faith healer comes on and he says, “If you have a part of your body you want healed, place one hand on the radio and the other hand on the afflicted part.”
The wife placed one hand on the radio and the other on her heart. The Mulla placed one hand on the radio and the other on his appendage.
So the wife said, “Mulla, he’s trying to cure the sick, not raise the dead.”
Osho
‘The Book of Wisdom’
Chapter 17: ‘Wake up the Slave’
Question 4
Miracle is when a human being thinks oneself as messenger, prophet, messiah, uncle, aunt and cousin of God and many give their approval by singing and dancing in a circle, “Baba black sheep, have you any wool…?”
That’s a golden nugget coming from you !
And yet despite, Shantam, you obviously seeing yourself as messenger, prophet, messiah, uncle, aunt and cousin of God, nobody is singing and dancing in a circle round you, singing “Baba black sheep, have you any wool…?”
That’s not a miracle though. Just that nobody is daft enough to share your delusions about you with you.
VF, I need to share here/SN, it’s very much a no-non-sense place. I guess to understand that probably one needs to allow oneself to curdle like the process in cheese-making!
@Kavita
Thank you for sharing what you think to be the sense of this place. It’s not mine, which you should know already, despite my communication limits. No doubt you would have asked me, if case you’d been really interested in that.
When people say “everything is a miracle”, well, okay, but it seems a tad tautological to me.
It certainly is the case that the fact this universe exists, and this planet within it, and we are after billions of years walking around on it, and actually in some sense aware of that…enormous miracles. And worth a regular reminder.
However, when I have posted here I’ve been referring to those miracles that plague the Christian gospels, and the new age type beliefs in medicinal miracles through laying on of hands, etc. I do think that Osho was wise to skirt well around all that.
“When people say “everything is a miracle”, well, okay, but it seems a tad tautological to me.” (Parmartha)
Understandable, to get very tired , Parmartha, when the very moment of
HERE-NOW is loaded in abundance with pretty much all the concepts, mankind has invented and communicated, may they come from what we call science and /or organized religion.
Concepts are always serving a purpose though – as – for coming together in what we call ´peace´and cooperation – as well as in war times, where concepts of living together in harmony are being put on the ´flag´
( mostly for fight (-of different concepts)).
But concepts are concepts.
We have been invited to at least visit and come to know an enormous recreation zone in the spirit, where concepts completely fall flat
( disappear) or are clearly seen as that , what they are.
Crutches. Or vehicles. Sometimes useful, to regulate our difficulties, to let ´the other ´BE.
The mathematical formulas of a computer programming mutates questions of humanly living together in harmony into a row of ciffres of ´be-and-not-to-be ´(in very small letters), almost often like this Hamlet Shakespearian Drama. And what a drag is that. Horrible.
Besides the game affiliates here, there have been , or are some, who know, where to go inside , to visit the recreation zone, I mentioned.
We are very, very fortunate, to have to come to know and enjoy this space. A Miracle. A Mystery.
And in this ´Spirit, I wish you a very beautiful Saturday morning Meditation at your Queen´s Wood Cafe today.
with Love
Madhu
“Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
There is a field. I’ll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass,
The world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase “each other” doesn’t make any sense.”
Mevlana Jelaluddin Rumi – 13th century
This is a great quote, Arpana.
Makes bells ring for me.
I have a vague sense, possibly. A hint of a sense, a momentary sense; perhaps; a glimpse, occasionally. Maybe!!
Arps, so beautiful!!
Doesn’t make sense at all!
So, let’s laugh?
First time I hear this quote! Great gift!
Thanks! XX
Thanks, Madhu, for your thoughtful post.
I was having a tooth removed this morning and not in Queens Wood. I do think that Osho was onto something about the teeth, it is certainly a source of great pain. Goodness knows how our ancestors coped. I heard that in Paris they used to ply even the rich full of alcohol until they were staggeringly drunk before extracting teeth, up to a hundred years ago.
I was also pondering the same thing recently about how people used to cope with dental pain before modern dentistry, whilst sitting in the dental chair and wishing I could have some nitrous oxide.
I figured that before people developed crude instruments, before the Iron Age, before they had possibly used even pieces of flint to perform extractions, they would have had to find out ways to deal with the dental pain, finding and discovering herbs and plants that could help, such as cloves or neem.
Apparently, once the tooth has been eaten away by the plaque and decay, the root dies and the pain stops eventually. But then the gum can get infected. Which meant finding the plants that were antibiotic in nature and possible fasting.
Then I wondered what monkeys and other animals do to cope with tooth pain. I guess they must have worked out some kind of way of dealing with it.
Nowadays, everything is so much simpler with modern dental techniques.
According to a sannaysin friend of mine who is a bit of an historian, people simply died of tooth abscesses in the Middle Ages, for example, and often died younger than the 40-odd years that some were granted.
I can imagine that our ancestors going back thousands of years would have found ways to extract teeth, but such a procedure without anaesthetic must have been beyond the pain barrier for many, and they also died.
One imagines this is the same for animals in the wild.
With regards to ‘Tooth Truth’, some evidence has been found for a lot of decay in Stone Age times:
https://www.sustainablebusinesstoolkit.com/tooth-decay-stone-age/
I must try to look into how aborigines and groups of hunter-gatherers used to deal with these kinds of issues.
Dont you think that when the phrase “everything is a miracle” is used, is probably more metaphorical, than literal. Hyperbolic expression of appreciation.
Language has been so degraded bu public exaggeration. Everything is’ ‘awesome’. Everything to the Daily Mail is the most disgusting, evil, depraved event that ever occurred in the entire history of the Universe.
@Arpana:
I repeat what I have said above about the relationship between mouth and echo, if this is not a misprinted recipient.
However, my suggestion is not to show this enthusiasm about things that you then can not explain; here, the only tolerated idiot is Osho – almost.
I read that the asshole to whom you will send the quote, in an old comment was a little surprised at the intelligence of the Master about the American choice, imagined as a homeland of freedom and democracy.
And last, the quote comes from ‘Wake Up The Slave’ (Question 4, Chapter 17, ‘The Book of Wisdom’), while here there are far more subtle chains for individuals, in the midst of a nation of subjects, which claims to rule the world in sexual matters: God save Jimmy Savile.
What to say about food? Better not, I could puke….
Ciao…sorry, I mean see you.
P.S:
I write with responsibility ‘as if’ words can influence people behind them, ‘as if’ virtual reality is part of the non-virtual – and you?
@sw. veet (francesco)
4 November, 2016 at 5:32 pm.
I have no idea what you are talking about, referring to. I can not make head nor tail of the rest of the post, particularly in reference to anything I have said to you.
I have remarked on a picture of Osho, speaking Italian. Positive response.
I remarked “bravo” to comments you made to Lokesh.
I posted a video by Cheb Meme, in response to, and because I enjoyed one posted by you.
I posted a quote by Osho on miracles, that certainly interested me.
So ????
@Arpana:
Why should I not be happy for making you smile or having fun with my comments? Of course I have been. It’s just that now I wield a hammer to crush an insect that calls me a liar, in a chorus of servile approval, and hiding behind an alias. But it could be anyone, even one of my aliases, and now I could be struggling to fake being an Italian.
Now if you have read all the previous comments, and if you know the likelihood of ego-synchonicity of that alias, and not just from today, you should know why I have a hammer in my hand; if not, as the most advanced people here will usually say: “It is not my problem.”
Thus, I conclude that sending me a comment with a quote of Osho on ‘miracles’ and a ‘Miracle’ was definitely a blunder’; maybe you wanted to put a different alias after @.
But I bless you, anyway.
“It’s not mine, which you should know already” – VF, sorry, I didn’t know that already, I prefer not to know anything in advance and I quite like that. There’s always more than one possibility!
Is there a single person who knows Veet Franseco personally?
To me, word machine looks like a penny wise, pound foolish chap.
No depth in the words!
Hi Shantam!
Now that I have seen his photo I am 99% certain I know him. I am pretty sure he and I were in a group together in Pune at sometime in the period 2002 to 2004.
Re your observation on Francesco which goes, “No depth in the words!”, I would counsel exercising a little restraint, Shantam, as we are all guilty of that kind of behaviour on occasions, aren’t we?
Best regards,
Ashok
@Arpana
Yes, you’re right, I was quite wrong in tone and the substance of what I wrote to you (not counting, of course, the lexical errors).
Firsly, I neglected to thank you for what you write and the relevant links you post, then I scolded you for having sent me the quote from Osho with topic “miracles” interpreting it as a provocation or an error regarding the recipient. Instead, with innocence, you just tried to take me to the core of my first share in this subject, before I fell into a spider’s web.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8-tJvKMybo
The Spider (thanks, google tr.)
“I walked this far above the highest walls
To party with you
But I see that was wrong:
Talk about life and death
I do not feel do that.
You’re sitting on your thoughts
As an old thief failed.
I always I used cunning
With my geometry games
It is foolish to risk.
I am the spider that spins
Along the darkest holes
I tend ambush
To those who still admired by my skills.
Not concede anything, anything to anyone ever.
I always follow the wire and never lose,
Follow this thread and you will not miss,
Take this thread and you will not regret!
“Maze with no exit
Is your embroidered space
I’d not know how to walk on”
Fast I run up and down
They are all an essay
But scruples
I have not.
Inside my precious shrouds
Delicate cradle prey.
If I could wrap you whole
Today perhaps my most precious prey
You would be you!!
Take this thread….“
I’m sorry if I hurt you; yes, while I was writing I handled a hammer.
I wish you well.
Keep posting.
Hi Francesco!
Would I be right in thinking that you are the Francesco who did the Osho Therapist Training group in 2003/4, led by Svagito and Tarika?
Regards,
Ashok
@ Veet (Francesco):
I lived in Malta, went to school there when I was very young, and I remember so clearly seeing stonemasons working limestone, as you and your companions are in the photographs.
The Stone Mason
He builds from local rocks that come to hand —
craggy, irregular, or water-worn —
and guided by a form he has in mind
but nothing like a plan, nothing so stern.
Colours and sizes join haphazardly
except for some that draw themselves together;
some likely stones he has to throw away,
a few so small they are not worth the bother.
And gradually the thing materializes,
assumes the shape he’d say he worked to build
although the details harbour some surprises
and there are places where he’d say he failed.
A century from now all will be changed
except the pile of rocks that he arranged.
Jan Schreiber
http://www.poemtree.com/poems/StoneMason.htm
Seems we have another poet and artist in our midst here; good to recall Ariadne´s counsel (that wise woman from the Greek myth).
Welcome, Veet Francesco,
Your ´spider-web’ poem is very inspiring and your google translator becomes better and better. Obviously.
And I decided (today) for myself that you really know how to differentiate (when using the hammer) a human being from a rock.
Alas, one never knows though…yes, one never knows…
What I loved to witness today, the last two days too, that the ´new energy´ entering the caravanserai is appreciated.”
That´s rare, Veet Francesco. Enjoy!
Madhu
* Leaving Shantam Prem out here, but if you would know his vv (verbal-virtual_ habits a bit longer, you wouldn´t mind, I guess.
@Kavita,
I wrote “should know”, assumed that you had read my comment that I quote below (2 Nov 2016 at 1:55 am). But even if you had done it I should have used ‘could’…I will try to express better, thank you.
“…our Brotherhood. So, for me this conversation, sometimes harsh, makes sense only if we agree about the frame to put on it.
From my side, what we are doing is to witness the gratitude for the boundless love and celebration that has given us the Master. And this should be visible also in our mutual “fuck you!”. Because deep down, in our surrender to Him we don’t care so much about who is wrong and who is right. We don’t care because we know the grace in our Friends who are leaving…There remains so little time after all the “I Love You” we need to say….”
Not only hammering, I also like a constructive approach jpg (…)
A song for you:
http://lyricstranslate.com/it/750000-anni-fa-lamore-love-750000-years-ago.html
Hug,
VF
Yes, dear, I am also improving my expressions, thanks to the hammerings on SN – and it’s going towards no construction! (I am lazy, unlike VF!).
Gentle hug…& a wordless song!
@Ashok,
Ciao Bello! I knew was you…siddhi’=s matter, sshhh…
Love,
VF
Ciao, Ragazzo!
Good luck at SN!!
Big Hug,
Ashok
I feel overwhelmed by the emotion of your welcome and by the compliments that always embarrass me a little, much more than critics: all these people that suddenly pop up behind the words…And I’m also sorry – no, even sad for what happened.
So what better time than this to test the air-tightness of my inflating ego and say some bullshit to try to deflate it?
I would like to tell to our older brothers £ sisters that I appreciate the intensity of your sharings: your stories at the feet of the Master. If He were still with us, perhaps you will agree with me on this, you may now rest a bit as it was before, and quench your thirst again at that peaceful source.
There all of us would silently be sharing the same unabashed joy, without question the descriptions of the external circumstances and the nature of That miracle.
The Miracle that I have known primarily through extraordinary people like You that in those years with your colours and aromas have marked the path to the East of those like me who came later.
After my gratitude for having indicated to me the Moon I hope you see also my love for All of You through Him.
“My Message is Celebration” (Osho).
This song is for You, just You:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HePMuJE3w0s
Prologue:
If not in thousands but in hundreds there must be people in different parts of the world who in the context of their cultural traditions work in the ‘Blessing Business’ with a good intention and some kind of supportive healing energy comes out from them.
It may be, it may not be. At least there are no bad placebos.
Also a simple paracetamol is a useful over-the-counter substance to heal basic pain and cold. Human body and sicknesses are too complex and therefore it is an unending research and development in pharmaceutical branch. In my heart Osho developed His spiritual work the way someone created Novartis and Pfizer!
My inner motivation is based on Osho´s work. No shortcuts but different tools to create a wholesome man and a society.
I see myself as one of the R&D employees engaged in Osho´s lab.; it is very seldom that I take some product from other companies. I tried during last weeks.
Thanks for reading and participating in lively discussion, specially to those who stayed with the theme of the thread.
Love,
Shantam
Miten sings:
“In wonder
I stand in wonder
At the MIRACLE of you.!
The fact that a few people do seem to gain union with the universe itself, and become an instrument of that, is perhaps the greatest miracle.
If Mother Meera also in her own way gives a taste of that, all to the good. The more the merrier, cos it ain’t easy….
@Kavita:
I’d like to ask you, if it’s not too nosy, what relationship (if any) you see between your laziness and joy? If:
Lazy because joyful; Lazy because not joyful; Lazy but joyful; Lazy but not joyful; Lazy and joyful; Lazy and not joyful; Lazy although joyful; Lazy although not joyful…
Or…to remain on the topic:
If Mother Meera comes to your town you’d go to meet her? (In case MM for you had any relationship with joy…or laziness).
Isn’t she lovely lazy?
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/Come-foglie-Come-foglie.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNKnCP2_zsA
Ciao,
VF
MOD:
VF, A FEW OF THOSE Lazy/joyful CATEGORIES SEEM TO BE SIMILAR OR THE SAME:
Lazy but joyful, Lazy and joyful, Lazy although joyful
Lazy but not joyful, Lazy and not joyful, Lazy although not joyful.
ANY COMMENTS?
VF, to me, my joy is my laziness, the only thing I enjoy doing is keeping all my immediate surroundings (space I live in) nice, colourful, clean & peaceful, and that is pretty much effortless for me.
Well, if MM would come to my town – no, dear, for me now I am myself the source of my joy; if there is no joy I do not indulge/maybe ignore it.
Seems she is enjoying herself! Thank you for sharing and your inquiry.
@MOD:
My apologies for what may seem like an exercise in style, experimental – it is not.
I used logical connectives that in my language have different meanings, not only shades, emphasis; and sometimes it changes the hierarchy of cause and effect:
Today it is sunny but cold: assumes that the sun has to warm up;
Today it’s sunny and cold: assumes that between the sun and the cold could be no relationship;
Today it is sunny despite the cold: it presupposes an inverse relationship to the “but” above: when the sun is there it should be cold;
Today it is sunny but not cold: assumes that the sun should cool;
Today it is sunny and there is not cold: almost similar to “and” from above, this time it is assumed that between the sun and the heat can not be a relationship;
Today it is sunny despite there is no heat: it presupposes a consequential relationship between the cold and the sun.
Love,
VF
MOD: POST EDITED
OK, VF, BUT PLEASE EXPLAIN THE VARIOUS SHADES OF MEANING YOU LISTED FOR lazy AND joyful!
@MOD:
Yes, (for me) joy has infinite doors, laziness ‘could be’ one of them. And it’s not always in my power to open it.
In that ‘could be’ I place all the “shades of meanings”.
Because All runs…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uix0PGEhc2s
Love,
VF
MOD:
BETTER TO BE WILLING TO EXPLAIN MORE FULLY WHAT YOU PUT UP HERE, VF. (AND PLEASE REMEMBER, FEW, IF ANY, UNDERSTAND ITALIAN, SO NO MORE ITALIAN LANGUAGE VIDEOS, PLEASE!).
ALSO WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY Because All runs…?
It seems it is time for Lokesh and me to retire from Sannyasnews. New kids in the block have taken over the ground. I even can’t sense what they are playing.
“Lokesh and me” – Shantam casually borrows Lokesh’s name to present himself as one of ‘The Big Two’ at SN. In his own mind, that is. Oh, the delusion of it all!