In 1984, whilst still in Rajneeshpuram, Osho dictated this book, “Books I have Loved” through his dentist, Devageet. Here is what he said about Rabiya.
“I have not yet balanced that heavyweight champion, Blah-Blah Blavatsky. This woman will do it. She is a Sufi; her name is Rabiya al-Adabiya. Al-Adabiya means ’from the village of Adabiya’. Rabiya is her name, al-Adabiya is her address.
That’s how the Sufis named her: Rabiya al-Adabiya. The village became a very Mecca when Rabiya was still alive. Travellers from all over the world, seekers from everywhere, came searching for Rabiya’s hut. She was really a ferocious mystic; with a hammer in her hand she could have broken anybody’s skull. She actually broke many many skulls and brought out the hidden essence.
Once, someone called Hassan came to her searching, seeking. One morning while staying with her he asked for the Koran for his morning prayer. Rabiya gave him her own copy. . Hassan was aghast; he said, ”This is condemnable. Who has done this?” Rabiya had corrected the Koran! She had crossed out many words in many places. She had even cut out whole passages. Hassan said, ”This is not allowed. The Koran cannot be edited. Who can edit the prophet – the last messenger of God?” That’s why the Mohammedans call him the last messenger – because there will be no more prophets after Mohammed, so who can correct his words? He is correct, and not correctable.
Rabiya laughed and said, ”I don’t care about tradition. I have seen God face to face, and I have changed the book according to my experience. This is my book,” she said; ”you cannot raise any objection. It is my possession. You should be thankful that I allowed you to go through it. I have to be true to my experience, not to anybody else’s.”
Why great men and women exist only in stories?
That’s the sort of throwaway statement-cum-soundbite that might sound impressive to you, Shantam, but a few moments is all you need to realise it’s nonsense, although it depends how one defines “great”, of course.
In my lifetime I can instantly think of several people widely recognised as such while they were alive, eg Nelson Mandela, Muhammad Ali, Winston Churchill, John Lennon, – and probably loads more where they came from.
But if you’re referring to the ‘spiritual arena’, surely even you can recognise greatness in at least a few beings who are or were your contemporaries? Anand Yogi and Swami Bhorat, for example….
Real master or Messiah or some spiritual hotshot is a human being too. He can commit mistakes like anyone, he can fall in various traps like anyone, and this is the beauty, the grace, where human and divine walk and talk in one.
After death, what remains is only the stories and cleverly built image by followers of infallible entity.
In a way, the polished image is entertaining but far from the reality Existence has created. This is one of the reasons followers of such people remain digging superficially because their icon too is an artificial creation.
Better to be in the company of one living great rather than reading stories of hundred and one such people. Around master or his community is the life, rest is simply crowd on the central square of the mind.
Freedom from such crowd is oneness.
Whatever, certainly should Rabiya be alive today, then she would be cut in a thousand pieces by most of Islam. Even for the so-called moderate Islam the Koran is totally sacrosanct. And a woman at that…
I don’t know whether Rabiya was “great”. but she was certainly brave. I have actually met a few brave men and women who also had flaws, but the bravery outshines all else.
And actually Rabiya gives a great example on how to use mystical books generally – just as aide-memoires to one’s own growth.
I remember some old copy of ‘Be Here Now’ in a squat in Camden Town back in the seventies: markings from many hands, and notes in margins that were illuminating in themselves….
This thread apt, perhaps, as it is the Muslim festival of Eid.
I happened to come across an old pamphlet about Meher Baba (which someone gave me years ago, whilst cleaning my place the other day, and had a look. I came across Meher Baba`s master, Babajan, and read up on her online.
Of course, we are flooded with a huge array of information and there is a mixture of bullshit and half-truths floating around on the internet, but one can sometimes find the jewels shining there too.
Hazrat Babajan died in 1931 (Osho was born later the same year), and years before thousands of seekers flocked to meet Bhagwan in Poona and establish a commune around him, years earlier Babajan had attracted her own gathering in Poona, based around the neem tree where she lived.
Like Rabiya, and other female mystics and travellers, it has got to be a difficult life as a woman, trying to live this kind of spiritual life in the open, in a world dominated by men and the orthodoxy.
“Defying the orthodox code of female subjugation, Babajan would exclaim: “I am a man, not a woman!” This situation perhaps really boiled down to Babajan versus the ulama (religious leaders). The fact of being a woman implied an inferior religious status in Islam. Not only the ulama, but also the Sufi orders in India, were very patriarchal; all the prestigious Sufi pedigrees were male. Women had no profile in the Sufi orders (except in Turkey via the Bektashiyya).
Babajan never wore a veil. She allowed Hindus and Zoroastrians to join her congregation at the neem tree. One of the Hindus was Babu Rao Genuba Ubale, a young man who owned a bicycle shop. The general impression conveyed is that Babajan did not permit Hindus to perform obeisance. (30) In her early years at Poona, some orthodox Muslims encouraged their children to throw stones at her, saying she was a heretic. Zoroastrian children copied this bad habit. Eventually, that problem was overcome, when the sheer number of her devotees meant that the miscreants no longer dared to insult.
By 1920, there were hundreds of Babajan devotees in Poona. The soldiers were by now a distinct minority amongst them. The civilian ambience was increasingly middle class, with three or more religions being represented. The Zoroastrians were basically a middle class factor, but some Muslim devotees were affluent. In the 1920s, women were included in the gatherings at the neem tree; there were separate areas for the men and women to sit. Frequent sessions of qawwali music added a more “Sufi” complexion to the assemblies.
Pathans continued to figure strongly, although no statistics are available. Only some of the Pathans were soldiers; the division became more pronounced in the later years, when so many civilians were in evidence. The Pathans are reported to have visited Babajan in the mornings and evenings. In the 1920s, a young Pathan from Peshawar found that assertiveness left him when he came into the presence of Babajan. “When he saw Babajan, he became speechless, he could not talk.”
(Newell, Experiencing Qawwali (online PDF), p. 72.)
“A counterpart occurred in the instance of a Parsi who was likewise a regular visitor to Babajan during the 1920s. Ardeshir S. Baria came all the way from Bombay, but would never say a word in the presence of Babajan. Eventually she asked him why he was so silent. He replied: “You are the Ocean, and I am but a traveller who has come to drink from the Ocean.”
(Shepherd, Pathan Sufi of Poona (2014), p. 53)
“Some commentators have an evident difficulty in assessing this figure. Babajan was not a senile mystic who sat under a tree all the time. She was fit and energetic for her age; she was lean, and could still walk fast. Until her last years, she was frequently an active walker in the streets of Poona, and was by no means stationary in that respect. She gained a repute for being markedly resistant to illnesses, having a quick recovery rate.
In Poona she gained many followers. Babajan was multi-faceted in her numerous interchanges with visitors. She was sometimes calm and still, speaking very little; at other times, she was liable to express a strong and heated resistance to visitors with inadequate approaches, or who breached the protocol she preferred. In contrast, she could also be humorous.
She made no reference to a Sufi pedigree or chain of transmission (silsila), a common feature of conventional Sufi projection, and which excluded women. Members of Sufi orders customarily charted their patriarchal lineage back over the generations via numerous official Sufis, and ultimately to the Prophet Muhammad. The accuracy of silsila attribution was a vexed subject amongst Islamic scholars and traditionists, who sometimes repudiated the claimed link with Muhammad. In the case of Babajan, no such problem arises.
This female faqir had no doctrine, no dogma; she did not give initiation, which is a widespread practice in popular Sufism (and also Hinduism). There were similarities, in such respects, with the liberal faqir known as Shirdi Sai Baba (d.1918). Initiatory systems were applied in medieval Sufism, and extending to investiture with a garment. Ceremonial does not necessarily achieve spirituality.
(Shepherd, Pathan Sufi of Poona, pp. 76-7)
A very interesting post, Swamishanti. Thanks.
“Of course, we are flooded with a huge array of information and there is a mixture of bullshit and half-truths floating around on the internet, but one can sometimes find the jewels shining there too.” (Swamishanti)
Yes, so true, Swamishanti, I subscribe to that. And I very much appreciate that you took the effort of a bit of sorting and research.
And isn´t it such a drag and sometimes a horror too that so many insanities and utter narrow- mindednesses are infecting all kinds of civil public places pretty much everywhere?
Simply insane how the cyberwars then of obnoxious, stupid people materialise in their street-work.
Action-reaction and on and on it goes, and getting more and more stupid and cruel too. Such a drag! And we´re facing it globally.
And I write it down, as I would so much like that we create together a little more sane spot here at SN, a kind of recreation zone. Staying sober and, above all, getting our immune system working when meeting or being confronted with all the rubbish re growing fanaticism we have to face elsewhere, wherever.
Thanks for your contributions these last days.
Madhu
Madhu, you say (and far from the first time):
“Simply insane how the cyberwars then of obnoxious, stupid people materialise in their street-work. Action-reaction and on and on it goes, and getting more and more stupid and cruel too.”
I honestly don’t know what you’re referring to here. Perhaps you live in a particularly troubled area – but what form does this unacceptable behaviour you so often cite take? Could you give one or two examples, please?
Parmartha,
We must not forget, it is Osho´s art of telling stories that we see some people in bigger fonts.
Maybe you can ask some Islamic scholars whether it is a factual story of Rabia correcting Koran or it is on similar lines to when Buddha takes the fly away from forehead while talking with Ananda.
Sometimes it feels like Osho is to the spiritual oratory what James Cameron is to the movie ‘Titanic’. The love story is a fictional creation to woo the audience.
“I don’t know whether Rabiya was “great”. but she was certainly brave. I have actually met a few brave men and women who also had flaws, but the bravery outshines all else.” (Parmartha)
In my eyes, Parmartha, Rabiya was a Being in a female body-mind-soul, striving very sincerely and remarkably to be Herself. A rare Flower. Sincerely striving to embody what SHE adapted from Her understanding of Koran scripture at Her time of being.
Or maybe better said: It just happened and She didn´t resist the pull. And it is told that she has not been antagonistic in a cheap or childish or showbiz way but HER unique way unfolding.
As anybody is called to Be, to grow, to commune (BE with others) his or her way. As wisdom needs company, I would say.
No surprise that that drew people near Rabiya in Her (historical) time, as well as the opposite people, whose vested interests as religious politicians were touched and they very upset and even in rage and worse.
I wouldn´t say though, that she was “brave”, as you put it, as to bravery belongs an intention or something to fight for.
I am remembering some of the tales, kinds of parables, when Osho shared about this woman, honouring especially the simplicity of Her wisdom (like looking for the lost needle outside the house in the village when you lost it ´inside´ etc. etc.). For me, this story is a functioning ´stop!´ exercise with good effects up to today, so it is a living story that, unlike some other stories, can be ever again told…(to me).
Rabiya has Her way to teach and to inspire up to nowadays. Quite a natural way and very deep; wisdom mostly unavailable for pundits’ minds. And a threat for those minds too.
Sufis, at least some of them, are famous for such teaching simply by living. Even to call it a teaching might be wrong.
Would be very nice to have better life-affirming conditions in our societies for such Suchness, as it is (on the contrary) apparently unfolding.
Madhu
Thanks, Madhu.
I am afraid I know very little about Rabiya; where did Osho speak of her elsewhere? Maybe you let readers know?
The story has the ring of truth to it for me, so I don’t really share Shantam’s scepticism.
It may say something about the past. There were always very small pockets of tolerance in some societies, and maybe Rabiya lived in such a pocket. Christians, Moslems and Zoroastrians lived together amicably for many years, for example in certain cities in the Middle East – Shiraz is such an example – until 1979…and the madness then unleashed in the name of Islam.
Parmartha,
He mentioned Rabiya and some other wise women in His spoken Books: ´Sufis, the People of the Path’, Vols.I & II.
Also, around the early eighties, we used a lot to draw cards from the then fabulous ´Rajneesh-Neo-Tarot´, we called it ´ZEN-POKER’ at that time; it´s still with me. The cards are connected to a lot of Sufi parables. (Rabiya is mentioned in the card 57: ´Intelligence´).
Madhu
Madhu, very nice sharing, thank you.
This morning, first post which I have seen at facebook is an inspiring story from the life of Prophet M. With this kind of living teaching, story of Rabiya looks authentic. This wonderful story from the life and time of Prophet is also an indication, how much corruption and false interpretations happen when greatest men leave the Earth, never to return again.
Basically, clever followers create their dummy out of the ashes and bones, but no soul. Such things did not happen only in past. Many people are eye-witnesses how the life and work of Osho Ji has been distorted by his own closest followers. In case of Islam, it is undoubtedly The Extreme.
Yes, Shantam, but how do you or anyone know this version you publish here is authentic? After all, it happened around 1300 years ago!
It strikes me that you start from your fixed position re ‘The Regime’ and spend much of your time searching for evidence that you think corroborates that viewpoint. Which is not a recipe for seeing straight, rather one for creating a story-line that suits you – the propagandist’s stock-in-trade.
I have written this as story, I have not said it is factual.
And moreover, I don´t search for material, it comes by itself. Surely it is my right to use them in my way. When you paint through colours or words you paint your own way without keeping in mind how others will react.
Moreover, if this story is accepted as factual by the Muslims, it can change the course of Islam.
By the way, some time ago I have posted this story on facebook as my cover story, with commentary.
Did wearing the veil originate from Mohammed?
Not according to this report:
http://middleeast.about.com/od/religionsectarianism/f/me080209.htm
So, let’s get this straight:
Did you write this yourself, or are you copying someone else’s story?
In either case it’s just another lie, especially as you present it as if it’s some sort of historical document. Again, a typical propagandist’s technique.
And as for potentially helping “change the course of Islam”, well, you’re even far more deluded than I ever thought. Why the hell should this fictional “story be accepted as factual” by the profoundly and apparently irrevocably conditioned Muslims?
I suggest you make your way asap to the ashram of Anand Yogi for urgent treatment – although I fear your case is incurably terminal….
A mediocre mind pretending to be great psychoanalyst? It is not needed to discuss with someone without any gravity.
MOD:
POST EDITED. PLEASE NOTE FOR FUTURE REFERENCE, Shantam. (IT’S NOT THAT YOU HAVEN’T BEEN WARNED BEFORE!).
Which, translated from Shantam-speak, simply means you’re cornered, resorting to personal abuse, the last refuge of the defeated.
P.S:
And by the way, what’s “psychoanalysis” got to do with this?!
If someone like you dares to say to Meera, “How come you are an Avatar and I am just a Britisher?”
To have a good discussion with Lokesh is enriching, but with you, Satyadeva, it is wastage of time for me and also for those who are readers. There is no pull, but repulsion over the sheer power of Mind.
Your first paragraph is incomprehensible non-sense, Shantam. (What’s that you said earlier about a “mediocre mind”?!).
As for the second, it’s just another lament of the defeated, an attempt to escape from the nagging sense of having been humiliated.
“…with you, Satyadeva, it is wastage of time for me and also for those who are readers…”
Again, Shantam, you make a claim without a shred of evidence. Who are you to speak on behalf of others here? After all, in case you haven’t noticed, SN has hardly been filled with support for your compulsive outpourings over the years, has it?
Shantam, you say, “I have written this as story. I have not said it is factual.”
A claim that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny in your introduction, which strongly implies the text is historically authentic:
“This morning, first post which I have seen at facebook is AN INSPIRING STORY FROM THE LIFE OF PROPHET M. With THIS KIND OF LIVING TEACHING, story of Rabiya looks authentic. This WONDERFUL STORY FROM THE LIFE AND TIME OF THE PROPHET is also an indication how much corruption and false interpretations happen when greatest men leave the Earth, never to return again.
Basically, clever followers create their dummy out of the ashes and bones, but no soul.”
You’re as devious and as fundamentally self-ish as those “clever followers” you want to discredit.
Shantam, how would I/we know what story you are talking about which is on Facebook? Do you care to share it if it;s not too much trouble?
MOD:
JUST SEE THE Discussion PAGE (and Shantam’s post, 10.11am today), Kavita!
Story is attached as a document/photo.
Sorry then, but neither the photo nor the document is visible to me, there is only a small blob-like thing at the end of your post.
Thank gosh, can see it now. Now I am wondering if sometimes “Ask & it shall be given!” has any truth in it.
Once I met a travelling female faqir. I observed boys throwing stones at her in the street, and watched her shouting at them and chasing them away with a big stick.
People laughed at her, but the Kashmiri shopkeepers had a lot of respect for her, and used to invite her into the back of their shops, where she would drink tea and occasionally smoke cigarettes. The Kashmiris would ask her to sing songs, and ask for her blessings.
One day she removed her headscarf and revealed large scars on her head, and grabbed her hair. Obviously complaining about something, she spoke in a confusing mixture of Bengali, Hindi and Urdu, that was difficult to understand.
The Kashmiris explained that she was describing how some men had assaulted her, grabbed her hair and smacked her head.
It can be a difficult life for such travelling women.
I don´t quite understand here, Swamishanti, why you call that woman a “faqir”; by the term ‘faqir’ I have understood up to now those people who perform hurt on themselves while being ´brave´ as they do it. A presentation which never attracted me (as a sign of strength?), even repelled me a lot when seeing that in India.
The woman you described, though, had been violated and hurt by others, for whatsoever reasons. That makes a difference, doesn´t it? Please clarify that for me, will you?
Here, in the so-called West, people who are not going smoothly with the masses and the mob are sometimes ´psychiatrised´ or declared ´masochistic´. The borderline is thin in such matters.
Anyway, I tend to feel and see people who wilfully hurt themselves as people who need our compassion and treatment, to find out what they really have to say. The amount of very young people, for example, who cut their skin here, later belonging then to a ´scar clan’ or starving themselves to death, is increasing here and seemingly more a problem of strong despair than rebellion, and it is a sad story (mostly rooted in family affairs).
Yes, the borderline is thin, and a deep look into such behaviour and communicating the social circumstances around it is needed.
Madhu
Madhu,
To me, `faqir` or `fakir` is used to describe wandering Islamic mystics, or nomadic renunciates, similar to Sufis, who are often known to sing and dance, sometimes believed to possess miraculous powers. Although in India the term `fakir` can also be used to describe Hindus as well, and indeed there is cross-strain and fusion between these too in the sub-continent.
In Bengal, fakirs have a widespread presence, and the Bauls, the singing and dancing crazy mystics that Osho talked of a lot, also originate from Bengal.
It was difficult to understand anything that that particular dervish that I was referring too was talking about, as she was talking in several different languages all at once, which was her style, but it became apparent that she originated from Bengal and had been part of a group of faqirs at some point – although these fakirs are usually male.
When she described being beaten it wasn`t clear by whom -
at the time, I remember wondering if she was talking about a previous husband.
Of course, the kind of behaviour that this lady was exhibiting would not be understood in the West, but this kind of stuff is generally known in the East.
My friends, the Kashmiris and one `Brahmin` friend who was also present, understood little of what she was on about, yet enjoyed her company for a while, and she enjoyed sharing with us and drinking tea, and also enjoyed smoking a couple of my cigarettes.
However, she wasn`t into any kind of self-harm, at least as far as I was aware, and `fakir` is not a term I have heard used to describe any kind of sado-masochism, although these people can live ascetic lifestyles.
I know there are some sick traditions of self-mutilation in certain spiritual circles in India and I have heard of one ceremony of `breaking the penis` (ouch) that is done next to a fire, and some sadhus will use chastity-belts (I would have thought that the chastity-belt is a better option as you can always take it off later if you change your mind).
Anyway, these kinds of `austerities` have been practised with the belief that they will provide some superpowers at a later date.
Once I saw a sadhu at a fair who was proudly displaying the fact the his penis was tied to a tree – it wasn`t clear how long he had been standing there. At the time I just thought it was silly and didn`t really care.
Your experience-based yarns are a treat, Swamishanti.
Keep ‘em coming.
SS states, “these kinds of `austerities` have been practised with the belief that they will provide some superpowers at a later date.”
Apart from being a very general statement it is also uninformed. Yes, some fakirs do gain siddhis through practising austerities, but that is more of a sideline than the original intention, drive, to perform extreme austerities. The idea behind performing austerities is the creation of tremendous willpower. Try standing on one leg for ten minutes to get a vague idea of what doing such a practice for thirty years might feel like.
I have heard that some of these practices can create a certain form of immortality, but that which is created is a thing, perhaps even a monstrosity. The reason being that development of pure willpower leaves our emotional and intellectual sides completely underdeveloped.
The path of ascetism is what Osho would have described as a bullock cart path, a path which had no place in the teachings he implemented. Osho’s ideas about creating a new man, a Zorba the Buddha, were based upon the idea of balance. Ascetism is an imbalanced approach to inner development.
During the decade I spent in India, I met many sadhus. It was rare to meet a sadhu whom I judged to be intelligent, which does not mean that they were not interesting and living on the edge in a kind of let-go. On the few occasions that I met intelligent sadhus I have to say that they were very psychically powerful people, at times to the point of being positively spooky, or very wise and on occasion very love-generating beings.
Some fakirs appeared to have adopted a lifestyle that gave them a sense of belonging and overcoming the harsh financial realities a misfit in India would have to face, or better still, escape from. Subcontinental hippies, one might say. Hence the sixties generation who made it to India liked to hang out with the babas on the burning ghats, looking on as corpses went up in smoke on the funeral pyres.
It`s true that you can develop willpower and powers through bollock-cart methods. But does it make you smart? Seems a little unlikely.
Ending up with sausage and mash can`t do much for your love life either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js_3bIni52I
Not to mention…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83DUsuNQazw
Sorry, that´s not at all a surprise today that the thread about Rabiya, a woman, lingers around (?) temporarily (I hope) with your very deep concerns about your most precious sexual organ and the philosophising about threats YOU guys may have to endure.
Madhu
You`ll like this one, then…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAg1r6zw7Bg
Yeah, it is a classic. Ouch!
No, Frank, I don´t (like it).
And knowing this already, you left out the response button.
Glad about the ‘Brexit’ just now!
Lokesh,
I`m glad that you like tasteful and high class comedy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1sP1tSA_ss
Yes, Frank, so glad to hear you appreciate my refined and highly sophisticated taste in humour. Unlike some other lesser mortals, no names mentioned, who clearly find themselves out of their depth. Quite understandable really. Not everyone had the chance to grow up studying Bill and Ben, not to mention Weed.
Benny Hill was my guru for some years until I discovered he’d misused his tickling stick on a female disciple, after which I graduated to Sri Tommy Cooper. Under his tutelage I soon experienced the great Just Like That and never looked back.
My journey took me to the feet of many masters, The Big Yin, MahaGeorge Carlin, Rab C. Maharaj, to name just a few. Now I sit in silence repeating the great question that is the mahamudra of koans:
‘Why does the Zen master keep an empty milk bottle in the fridge?
He keeps it for the disciples who like to drink black tea.’
I understand in my heart of hearts that one day this koan will bring to an end my desire for enlightenment. Knowing that the joke and the joker are one.
The Tao of Frank.
The Tao that can’t be franked is not the Tao.
Yes, Arps.
Frank on his own is the best!
Now, Frank boy and McLoke are a riot! Don’t stop, guys! I remember both of them taking Osho Rajneesh and his gang…It was memorable!
Indian religions have hundred thousand inspirational stories created by masters and disciples during the ages.
Osho has used many such stories all around His career as new age spiritual master. (Maybe it is no good to say, masters jet-legging from town to town, country to country, are not expanding their career but following a Mission Divine).
To think stories are facts and actual is as intelligently childish as to ask, “Why James Bond never gets bullets in the middle of their heart and balls?”
As I have posted the other day one story about Prophet M taken from the wall of a prominent Indian Muslim entrepreneur lady, I wish to share another story in my words about Late Prophet. I don´t have the clue whether Osho has told this story. I came to know from one of my Indian friends living in Hamburg. During all these years, once in a while I visualise this story and feel sense of respect for the great man.
Mohammad Sahib was on death bed. It was clear he won´t survive long but as it is human nature, family members and doctors don´t give up hope as long as one is breathing. One day, he tells his wife, “Whole night I was feeling restless, uneasy, my feeling is something was not done right in this household.”
Wife felt amazed by the inner sensitivity of holy man.
She confessed, “I saved some money last evening instead of giving this to the needy in the evening as you have instructed me to do every day. I thought, who knows if we need to call Hakeem (medical practitioner) during the night? So I saved for his fees.”
Prophet said, “Now you go and give that money to the needy people. I don´t want my trust in Allah gets shaken in my last days. What we need today, he will give today and this is the way for ever.”
Story says, he breathed his last that day.
Shantam, you say, “To think stories are facts and actual is as intelligently childish as to ask, “Why James Bonds never gets bullets in the middle of their heart and balls?” ”
You’re clearly attempting to save face after our last dialogue, but (apart from the fact that you seemed to deliberately imply that the story you published was fact rather a piece of fiction) I’m afraid the problem that you fail to recognise here, Shantam, is that as it’s impossible to prove whether those old masters actually said what they’re supposed to have said, after so many centuries, when much, if not all, about their life and teachings wasn’t recorded until long after their deaths, we therefore can not necessarily trust such stories as ‘spiritually valid’.
I’m not denying that myths, legends, stories play a key role in all cultures, but in the realm of conventional religions many of these stories are almost certainly apocryphal, created by priests who, in time-honoured league with rulers, politicians and other vested interests, were largely concerned with maintaining public morality and order, keeping their society running smoothly, so that the powers-that-be, including themselves, could carry on running the show.
That being the case, they could (and still do) recommend anything that suits them, passing off even the most outlandish nonsense as ‘divine truth’. Take a look at a few of the claims made in Islam, for instance…
Living masters, of course, are another matter, they can use anything they like, as long as it ‘works’. But theirs is a totally different ball game to that of the priests, isn’t it? Besides, these days their work is usually pretty well all recorded anyway.
You might think you and others are well able to discriminate, to sort the wheat from the chaff, as it were, but that’s not a valid supposition, bearing in mind the predilection of so many, including you, Shantam, to believe what ‘suits’ them, even if it’s obviously sentimental hogwash.
Rabiya certainly was a brave woman, if she did indeed cut out whole passages and modify the Koran. Not just because of the dangers that such an act might put her in, but because Muslims are given a certain programming from birth, that comes from that book, that she also would have carried.
The fear of God and hellfire is instilled quite a lot in that book, from what I have read, in a similar way to the Old Testament.
“The fear of God and hellfire is instilled quite a lot in that book, from what I have read, in a similar way to the Old Testament.”
An excellent, albeit extreme example of the sort of misleading ‘spiritual story’ I mean. I myself know young Muslims, otherwise intelligent, educated, highly competent people, and good company, who insist on believing absolutely literally in hellfire and damnation.
And Rabiya did not have any `Bhagwan`, anyone to tell her to `drop her programming’.
Of course, followers of the `Blessed One` have been given certain programmings from Osho, but apart from US government agencies radiating your balls if you said the wrong stuff, there wasn`t much in the way of fear in that programming.
There wasn`t much in the way of fear in that programming.
I do not entirely agree with that.
“There wasn`t much in the way of fear in that programming.
I do not entirely agree with that.” (Lokesh)
Me neither, Lokesh, me neither.
Madhu
Yeah, Madhu, some ashramites lived in fear about loosing their front line cushion at the morning discourse, while others fretted about the threat of having their food pass cancelled because they were resistant. Meanwhile, a small minority were horrified that they might lose their mind.
Seconded, Lokesh.
Thought of today, based on the comments of yesterday:
Sannyasin means someone who has memory of the past but no idea about future.
This is called, in spiritual language, ‘here and now’.