Below what has recently gone up on utube, contains some bits of prison interviews with Osho from 1985.
I remember there being three prison interviews, but have never seen them at all in recent time.
Towards the end there is an interview with a Rajneesh spokesperson. a sane interview, and so different from Sheela! But only ever seen her here. Wonder what happened to her?
This video has the contents unseen before.
Out of 5 likes, fifth is mine.
To watch this without followers´s sentimentality is an amazing exercise.
Haven’t watched the video all the way through, but have it saved to do so, however, I am most struck by how much that Oregon time, the time between Poona 1, and Poona 2, seems like a dream.
Rationally, ‘I know’ all this happened, but quite frankly, the video, the events just seem so unreal now.
I do have a very strong sense of connection to Osho, to Sannyas, but not to that, although he was called Bhagwan in those days and sannyasins wore malas and red clothes, and we are sannyasins of Osho and wear plain clothes, which I guess would make a difference.
Parmartha,
I am also wondering about Dhyan Rosalie’s further pilgramages from ´here-to-here´, when listening to her in the vid you posted; and my heart feels so good when listening to what she had to speak out (1985), then and there, quite three decades ago (and having quite a moderate moderating reporter, which was also an exception in those times, wasn´t it?).
To say I am wondering might not be appropriate, as I feel very confident that as a mature being, as she shows up there with mature statements about her relating to the Master and commune calamities at this time, she might be very much all right now, wherever she abides.
The last days, while reading a lot, there was this Jack Johnson song ever again hauting me, and a few lines of the lyrics of ‘Good People’ of his I´d like to take as a quote, adding my gratefulness for Dhyan Rosalie to appear as one of the numerous exceptions to those who have been and are very noisy…
“Where’d all the good people go?
I’ve been changin’ channels
I don’t see them on the TV shows
Where’d all the good people go?
We got heaps and heaps of what we sow.
They got this and that
With a rattle-a-tat
Testing one, two
Now whatcha gonna do?
Bad news, misused, got too much to lose
Gimme some truth
Now who’s side are we on?
Whatever you say
Turn on the boob tube
I’m in the mood to obey
So lead me astray
And by the way, now
Where’d all the good people go?
I’ve been changin’ channels
I don’t see them on the TV shows
Where’d all the good people go?”
With Love to a Sangha – unknowable by the mind -
Madhu
P.S:
So sorry, I don´t know how to post pics or vids (or songs and music) etc. technically; I often feel sorry for my incapacities to cope with the technical issues.
Do you really have nobody in your life whom you’re glad to know?
I could give you so many names: Neighbours. Friends. Acquaintances.
I’ve been ill. Slept for five days. Woken in the middle of my sleep by twenty-something young married couple, Rummy and Susie, come to check up on me because they hadn’t seen me out and about. Friends, despite the age difference. They don’t meditate. Know nothing of Sannyas or Osho.
This isn’t criticism. I am asking you because of that song you posted.
Arpana,
Our life situation and challenges are very different, I´d say.
My neighbours, acquaintances, former friends, are more into stalking, I´d say. Took me about ten minutes to even get into my Apple computer after coming home, as it was ´occupied´, so to say (About other harrassments these long years here, I´ve said enough, for the moment).
I am so glad for you that you might not have to cope with such in particular; and I am so utterly glad about your recent work you shared, compiling these (for me) very precious inner-views of friends I came across in these decades.
My heartbeat strenghtened when reading it. Today, during lunchtime, I´ve finished the first read and am really eager for follow-ups!?!
Went for a swim then, outside by the river here, floating in the water like a leaf of grass; these moments of bliss so precious – the last summer breezes.
The chat took a nice breeze too, didn´t it? And I just listened to the music you shared. Beautiful, thank you for this – (was Lokesh a support to that?).
Madhu
I didn’t really get how you felt about your life till you posted that song.
I would it were otherwise for you.
Dhyan Rosalie – yes, would be nice to know how it all turned out for her.
Anyone know her?
Thanks, Madhu, for your post.
Thanks, Parmartha too.
Just came ´home´ here.
Warm embrace to you.
Didn´t like to hear that you don´t feel well at the moment.
Wish you very well,
Madhu
Well before the printing press was invented, word of mouth was the primary source of news. People banged blocks of wood together and primitive people even learned how to use smoke signals to convey simple messages.
Someone having a baby or a neighbour’s hut being burnt down was `local news`.
In aboriginal environments, people told stories of their past and used didgeridoos and other instruments to tell a story or make a point.
In more recent times, ‘international news’ involved returning merchants, sailors and travellers bringing news of far-off events back to the mainland, and this was then picked up by pedlars and travelling players and spread from town to town. This transmission of news was highly unreliable.
The Romans published ‘Acta Diurna’ (‘Daily Acts’) or government announcement bulletins, around 59 BC, as ordered by Julius Caesar. They were carved in metal or stone and posted in public places.
In China, early government-produced news sheets, called tipao, were commonly used among court officials during the late Han dynasty (2nd and 3rd centuries AD).
But it wasn`t until the seventeenth century, that the first `newspapers` appeared in Europe.
In the last century, the invention of the radiogram and the television, and their widespread popularisation in the 50s, started broadcasting international news to the general public, and people started learning about events from around the world, as reported by the media.
Nowadays, people are able to just sit back in their chairs or look at their tablets and look into small news sites like sannyasnews, and see Osho speaking publicly from his prison cell in the USA back in the 1980s.
It is difficult to accept the fact but it is real that not one time but two times Bubble of Utopian-like life around Osho fell apart like palace built with logo chips.
Innocent participants have to bear the shock, loneliness, poverty, dependency, unemployment or leftover jobs. Surely star therapists got the best out of it and also management people – be it Sheela or Jayesh kind.
Anyway, only losers win the game and post-leaving the body faithful disciples will get furnished apartments on star called Nirvana.
I have been looking for the Ted Koppel ‘Nightline’ interview with Osho, which was also conducted in the same jail, but have not found it. I remember watching a videotape of that interview in the eighties.
To me, I found Osho looks quite beautiful in the interview, with his hair all messed up, but quietly and simply explaining his defiance of the arrest and incarceration. I always find the Indian street kids beautiful with their wild hair .
Hugh Milne describes the interview of Osho in jail in his book, ‘Bhagwan, the God that Failed’, but in his eyes Osho was exposed in the jail, naked without his special clothes and shiny hats.
A bit like ‘the Emperor that lost his clothes’ for him. To me, this was just his take on things, and he was missing the ‘gap between the words’ that Osho was always pointing too. Also, in Hugh Milne’s book which was co-authored in co-operation with the US authorities, they deliberately missed out Osho’s response to a question, which was his punchline.
Today, we are fortunate to have the stories of other sannyasins who actually spent time with Osho in jail and said he was unchanged.
I recall a friend of mine after we saw Bhagwan on British TV during this period admitting the following:
He said he’d been going through a really bad time, and saying to himself that it was all right for Bhagwan, surrounded by all those beautiful girls, surrounded by people whose sole purpose in life was to fulfil his every whim; and then he saw him looking so radiant in jail and he said he took it all back:
“Now I know he’s the real thing.”
(One of my favourite images of him).
In Hugh Milne’s book, he ran a transcript of the interview with Ted Koppel, but out of meanness of spirit, or it could have been the publisher’s control, he missed out the punchline.
Which was:
Koppel was disputing that people who were just “friends” not “followers”, as Bhagwan was claiming, could act in the way that his sannyasins did and said, “Well, I don`t have friends that buy me Rolls Royces”, and Bhagwan replied with a chuckle, “You are not the blessed one.”
I was watching that Ted Koppel ‘Nightline’ interview live on TV in the US.
It was a brilliant moment.
That guy had some balls.
A brilliant moment in what was otherwise a scary movie.
Thanks, Frank.
Well remembered!
If you, or anyone else, manage to find the full transcripts of the prison interviews, or videos of them, please post them here.
I always felt Osho in those (just forget what he was saying, and they did not make it easy for him in prison); in terms of being, just the same as I always experienced him.
That guy Shiva was just a mean-spirited character at that time, and bitter with revenge, etc. I wonder how he sees things now, I understand he makes a living doing sessions, but I don’t know where.
Last I heard, Hugh Milne was living in America and doing well. From what I understand he is not very preoccupied with his distant past and he appears to be an intelligent and decent man.
Lokesh,
You can listen to Hugh Milne in a portrait, done by Ian McNay on Concious TV UK, same source as the interview with Alan Lowen was done (not so long ago); at that time he was living in Scotland, doing his cranio work, and for sure he appears to be decent and a good cranio facilitator.
Couldn´t figure out though, in depths, why I felt a bit uneasy though, when listening and looking at the vid.
Never read his book, the one talked about a lot (the choice of title – ‘God that Failed´ – had been so repellent to me).
Madhu
U`ll tell ye thus, ye daf` coo. Uf ye woan yur craenyum gi`en a good seen` tae, it’s a fokn Scoatsman ye need to set aboot et an guv et a good gaiin over, ye noo wut u meen, laike?
Translation, please, Frank boy.
I wouldn’t like to miss that one….
Tan,
Here`s some homework for ye:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4yeqSgNxiE&list=RDmGjDVfcP9tI&index=2
I love Rab C when he is on a rant. An’ see you, yer scum, that’s what you are.
That bit when he says when you get down to it they are a bunch of fascist bastards. Classic! Maybe it helps being a Weegie.
MOD: Weegie = a Glaswegian (someone from Glasgow)
Hi Madhu,
I would be interested to meet up and have a chat with Hugh Milne.
I will not be checking out his interview vid. Like the vid that this thread is based on, I am not very interested in such things. I will write a fuller comment below.
“Hi Madhu,
I would be interested to meet up and have a chat with Hugh Milne.
I will not be checking out his interview vid.”(11.19 am)
“Hi Tan, very interesting interview…Most enjoyable.” ( 7.29 pm)
Hi, Lokesh, sometimes wondering if we chat on the same website in a day’s hours turn?
Madhu
Madhu, wonder no more. I was at a loose end and for want of something better to do I watched the Hugh Milne interview. Tan made it easy by posting a link. Easy was definitely right in this particular instance.
If someone asks me to define old age I usually say loss of flexibility. I try to remain flexible, which includes changing my mind every once in a while.
Flexible, in my view, means intelligence.
Definitely, we have to be flexible!
Thanks for the remark, McLoke. XX
There you are, all the interview with Hugh Milne. What do you reckon, guys?
https://youtu.be/PNQT1VL7I2s
Hi Tan, very interesting interview. Most enjoyable. Definitely a good guy in my books. Thanks for posting the link.
Hugh seems loch he is daein’ weel, which is stoatin. But sittin’ doon an’ havin’ a bowl ay porridge wi’ heem? But his book was a load ay naf, went it ay his way tae portray Osho in a bad lecht, whit wi’ aw a scuttle stories in Bombay an’ aw ‘at he shoods hae jist kept ridin’ his dumper truck an’ kept his wee gob shut. Surrendered tae th’ master.
I was told once by a Lao Tsu dwelling resident that a tall guard who also became famous, once broke a woman’s leg with a karate kick of jealous rage. I actually know who this person was, and so will never support the view that some people with pokey glaring eyes are anything but nutcases.
Osho had plenty of nutcases around him. He thought it was fun. But he also tried to clear up some of the mess that poor judgement caused. I learnt that Osho loved people to assert themselves in spite of him, not because of him. But in a decent way. Not everyone got the decent part.
I also remember the Airforce Planes flying low over the auditorium when everyone was in listening to Bhagwan during the last festival.
I don`t remember him saying “don`t be worried” like the girl (love the hairdo) in the interview at the end says. I remember him saying something like “the world is full of idiots”, and again a moment of comic relief.
Frank,
I didn´t hear her say “don´t be worried” just like this…and her name was/is Dhyan Rosalie, btw. And she is a woman, not a girl.
And yes indeed, her hairdo was beautiful. Her face too. And her expression. And even much more beautiful was her way to take responsibilty, the way she did – in precarious times; and very dignified too.
And yes, I´ve been also present, to feel the shadows scraping the sky during the festival, more so, I felt the shadows in the audience…
Let us see how it all works out, Frank, without pushing the river.
In my better moments, I see us like ancient cows, chewing and chewing same or similar stuff, until it´s done; that´s a funny picture, isn´t it?
Like your posts, adding some indigestive-little-helpers, sometimes even remedies, to the process.
Madhu
My impressions:
How dated the interviewers looked in their grey suits and ties and hair dos.
How earnest and liberal they were in their attempts to understand the events and personalities involved. Credit to them for trying.
How crazy Sheela appeared in her undoubtedly edited interviews.
And how deeply flawed the idea is of a commune, itself. The desire to escape the world and to create a paradise is a long held one. From Jamestown and Waco, to the island retreat of Da Free John, it seems spiritual types have experimented with trying to create a new world as a means of escaping the old. And they all end in ruin.
If sannyasins couldn’t do it, with all their intelligence and with Osho as the inspiration it seems to indicate, no one else will either.
Our attempts to create any form of social/’spiritual’ harmony seem destined to fail, because they are based on a desire to seek harmony without, rather than within.
But hey, it was worth it. At least an effort was made. And in my experience I met very few who have any regrets. Many learned something real from the whole experience.
There is a famous saying, “Nothing can stop the idea whose time has come.” On similar note one can say, ”One cannot plant the idea whose time has not come.”
Who knows some extraordinary spiritual genius gets birth again and uses Osho´s efforts as compost to create worldwide spiritual movement which is New in all the respects and not Hinduism packed in designer bottles.
Time has shown, Osho did not get the right disciples ON THE TOP, whether in America or India. It can be explained with simple example:
Decades ago, Osho as son and master created the festivity called MahaPrinirvana Day( Day of great liberated departure) in memory of His father and disciple, who breathed his last on this day of 8th September.
The very hand-picked trustees of the master have scrapped this festival too from their lopsided interpretation of their own master´s work. No protest, no articles against the stone-headed decisions of one´s own priests?
The decline of Osho´s work cannot always be blamed on Ronald Reagan, Sheela Birensteil?
Today is 8th of September!
Osho Mahaprinirvana day!
I watched the video. I was struck immediately by how intelligent Osho looked. Too intelligent to have got himself into such a stupid and dangerous situation. It can happen to the best of us.
The interviewers were a pretty bland lot. Their questions uninspired and mainstream. The government officials looked like…ehm…er…government officials.
Osho came away with some pretty naive comments. That imprisoning him in the USA would illustrate that America was not the democracy it claimed to be etc. As if locking up an Indian guru would create a stain on the collective consciousness of America. This is ridiculous. A failed and flakey manipulative tactic that would gain no purchase in America’s hard soil.
Look at America’s track record. Their armed forces are responsible for the loss of millions of innocent people’s lives. You think someone will cry foul and stop the game because an Indian guru gets banged up?. Innocent people have been imprisoned in America, sometimes for decades. New evidence is discovered and they are set free with a cheque and a little publicised apology.
Then we have Sheela. Half the time she looked like she was on speed. A nutcase. Yet, Osho put her in charge of his commune. Why? As a device for our awakening to our fascist tendencies? If you believe that hype, you will believe anything. Osho put her in charge because he thought she was the right person for the job. If that is not naive then what is?
Right up to the end he was supporting her, even going so far as to say she was not going far enough in her provocation of the American authorities. Then the shit hits the fan and Osho cries out, “I’m innocent.” Maybe he was but if that is the case he must also have been very naive.
Then we have the female sannyasin representative. The commune can continue if Osho is not physically there, because he is inside of us all. As history was to show, it did not quite pan out like that. The Ranch collapsed after Osho left USA. Viewed in a certain light her rap could have been produced by a variety of people from different religious cults. She appeared sincere but it all sounded a bit flakey.
Then we have the sannyasins themselves. Rose petals shower down from the sky. Osho drives by in a Rolls Royce. Everyone is ecstatic – everyone, that is, except a bunch of sannyasins dressed in lilac uniforms, looking very serious indeed as their eyes scan the crowd, the safetys off on their automatic weapons. What a fucking circus. Yet, so many sannyasins went along with it. If that is not naive tell me what is?
As sannyasins our core values were founded in love and peace and harmony. If we find ourselves in a situation wherein we need to arm ourselves it is surely an indication that we are in the wrong place and better get out of Dodge quick. Instead, many treated a deadly serious development as if it were all good, clean fun, a leela, a device. Well, if the latter were a device it was probably cooked up to show you how fucking dumb you were, hanging out and supporting an armed police force in the middle of nowhere. ‘Lord of the Flies’ is showing in a cinema near you.
It’s an old story now and SN is doing its best to come up with fresh topics. It is a poor reflection on us regulars that nothing a wee bit fresher is being written. Instead, we have the same old, same old recycled topics relating to events that happened thirty years ago. Yes, you can always find a reflection, no matter how mottled the mirror. Then again, the dust of time clouds the reflection.
I have written plenty of threads. I find it quite an easy task and I am no genius. Some come on, how about something a little more up-to-date from some of you other writers, instead of re-runs of all our yesterdays? The past is a graveyard!
“Innocent people have been imprisoned in America, sometimes for decades. New evidence is discovered and they are set free with a cheque and a little publicised apology.”
And many experiments were carried out in the US, without their knowledge or consent, on some of these prisoners, by the CIA and other US government agencies.
Some of these experiments involved hallucinogenics and other chemicals, and there were also experiments with radiation.
Numerous human radiation experiments were performed on prisoners and others groups that included, but were not limited to:
•feeding radioactive material to mentally disabled children
•exposing U.S. soldiers and prisoners to high levels of radiation
•irradiating the testicles of prisoners, which caused severe birth defects
•exhuming bodies from graveyards to test them for radiation (without the consent of the families of the deceased).
Bill Clinton gave a public apology on behalf of US government for human experiments in 1995.
Lokesh suffers from the endemic notion that seeing the glass as half-empty shows him to be deep and intellectually evolved, as if seeing the glass as half-empty is unusual and radical.
Yah couldn’t make it up!!!
Arps, why not try a new approach? Instead of seeing my comments as an excuse to launch a personal attack upon me, why not use my comments as a reason to share your perspective on the matters discussed?
Were I to look for some kind of personal reflection from one of the regulars here, you would be the last person to whom I would look. The reason for this is that there is something warped in your reflection. In general, you only really have something to say when you are on the attack and little of interest to say in regards yourself.
You have a nasty streak. Why not address it? It is a negative side of yourself that must suck on your energy like a vampire. Why waste your precious time on feeding such an entity? It’s up to you. I do not take anything you say about me seriously. So, why waste your time on such a fruitless activity?
Oh dear. When you sneer and jeer and launch your vitriolic, shitty personal takedowns on fellow- posters it’s because you’re deep, intellectual and incredibly evolved, but calling you out on self-delusion is victimising you.
All together now: Poor Lokesh. BOO HOO.
Arpana, you sound like dog barking at elephants.
There is nothing wrong. Nature has created all kind of creatures and Osho has created a miniature world of human possibilities and pitfalls.
Osho´s religious movement is the most humane one. I mean Osho´s movement in its original vision, before the vasectomy by chosen few.
All together now? Arps, you have returned to your habit of speaking for others, when nobody on this site is requesting you to be a spokesman for them. Apart from being predictable it also shows a delusional aspect to your take on things.
No more comments from me on anything further you say for some time. I know you like to have the last word and I am happy to let you have it. On that level at least, you are easily satisfied.
Lokesh said:
“In general, you only really have something to say when you are on the attack and little of interest to say in regards yourself.”
That’s a fair description of what you do whenever the Ranch is mentioned; and I find your name-dropping about Poona 1, and the endless bragging pretty boring as well.
First of all, the patronising announcement that you’re not interested, without fail; and then you start to bang on at length, the same old, same old obsessive sneering and glass is half-empty claptrap we’ve all heard so many times.
You couldn’t stand the heat. You weren’t above it.
In a way, nobody writes like Lokesh, whether at sannyasnews or any other Osho disciples’ media outlets.
One of the reasons he is not sentimental about Osho is that he is out of the conditioning by which humanity is bound with its special ones. We give foolproof immunity to our Buddhas and Christs. There is a natural instinct to create faultless, infallible messiahs out of departed masters. To find human fault in them is sacreligious.
Whether in America or in India, Osho became the victim of His own disciples’ over-confidence, clever and shrewd intentions. Instead of appreciating this humanness of Osho, we try to paint a master who has x-rays in his eyes, who has a kind of lie detector machine inside.
The inner child does not want wise masters but the masters who are miraculous. I think in Rajneeshpuram, many disciples were living with this high, that Existence will protect their commune and founder from all kind of blunders and visibly illegal activities, that people around Osho become automatically dry-cleaned.
Quite so, Shantam.
But perhaps you haven’t realised that the game’s been up for such wrong views of masters, present or departed, for quite a while; certainly, for many, since the Oregon episode.
Might be worth remembering that Osho himself always referred to himself as “an ordinary man”, as have other masters who’ve insisted that they’re “not special”.
This is surely evidence of a new, more mature phase of ‘seeking’, even though espoused by a tiny minority of the population, the rest still in the thrall of traditional religions, seemingly enjoying being treated like children.
Good response, Lokesh. I think your comment about the naivety of those days and of Osho himself, in his interview, just shows how it is through trial and error and experience that we, as individuals learn.
Of course, even with experience many don’t even learn, but repeat the same mistake time and again…and of course there is no ‘group ‘ learning.
Many were fooled by the notion of the ‘device’. It can be so all-encompassing as to cover any crap that is thrown at us. And as to how it worked at the Ranch, it seems our need for daddy, our need for an authority figure, ran very deep in sannyasins as it does with most people.
To stand outside the crowd, to actually think for yourself is far more difficult than we imagine. The pressure to conform, the desire to be loved and to feel secure is a deep one.
Osho was a paradox, teaching us, on the one hand, to become real individuals and on the other, grouping us together in some mystical group as ‘sannyasins’.
He was naive too.
Quite so, Simond. What occasionally surprises me is how narrow-minded certain sannyasins are in relation to such matters. We fare best if we remain open.
I wish…
Nice pic, Simond; back to sender….
Thanks, Madhu.
This is the second video from the same person who posted the first one. Also very interesting and first time seen stuff.
It seems in life no relation lasts for ever if it is between two living human beings, even when one is master, another the closest disciple.
It is really something when the Sheela, Bhagvan´s Sheela, waitress Sheela confronts her Bhagwan!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLi5vlAYH2c
Watched the vid, Shantam. The old man was on the ball. That is, until he predicted what was going to happen to Sheela. He was mistaken. His domain was the here and now. There he was king.
Law of unintended consequences:
“Prohibition”, intended to suppress the alcohol trade, drove many
small-time alcohol suppliers out of business, consolidating the hold
of large-scale organized crime over the illegal alcohol industry.”
“The War on Drugs”, intended to suppress the illegal drug trade, has
driven many small-time drugs dealers out of business, consolidating
the hold of large-scale organized crime over the illegal drugs
industry.”
“The introduction of rabbits into Australia for sport led to an
explosive growth in population, and led to rabbits becoming a major
pest in Australia.”
“Blowback describes the phenomenon of supporting a foreign regime or
terrorist entity, on the principle that your enemy’s enemy is your
friend, only to have it attack you, often with the weapons and
resources you gave it.”
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=176107
Lokesh says, “I try to remain flexible, which includes changing my mind every once in a while.”
Flexible just doesn’t mean what I thought it did is all I can say.
Flexible actually means inflexible.
Sorted.
@ Parmartha.
Regarding Oregon. You might find this interesting.
https://www.scu.edu/ethics/focus-areas/more/technology-ethics/resources/the-unanticipated-consequences-of-technology/
* Life is very complex, more so than we admit.
* All of our actions have unanticipated consequences.
* We bear a moral obligation to take our positions tentatively, with humility in the light of our ignorance.
* Short-term and long-term values are often different, often contradictory.
* Uncertainty can be reduced but there is always a cost.
* It is desirable to reduce uncertainty – but not to eliminate it.
Decisions and outcomes…
http://owlturd.com/post/140927719819/image-this-is-from-bluechair-webtooncom