OSHO AND THE RISING PHOENIX
by Lokesh
Osho says: “The very idea of reincarnation, which has arisen in all the Eastern religions, is that the self goes on moving from one body to another body, from one life to another life. This idea does not exist in the religions that have arisen out of Judaism, Christianity and Mohammedanism. But now even psychiatrists are finding that it seems to be true. People can remember their past lives; the idea of reincarnation is gaining ground.”
It is almost two years since Hari, an old Poona One friend, who I had not seen in 25 years, came to stay with me for a couple of weeks. We had lots to talk about. Hari lives in Maui and during the course of our conversations he reported the following.
Hari lives in the south of the island and not far from his home live a sannyasin couple M and J. I have to respect people’s privacy and hence the abbreviations. M and J took sannyas in the late seventies in Poona and met during an encounter group a few weeks later. During December 1983, J had twin girls in California. M and J are American citizens and, when Osho set up the commune in Oregon, M and J and the twins went to visit twice on celebration days. Life went on and the twins began to talk. One of the girls began to form words at a very young age and one of the first clear words that came out of her mouth was ‘Bhagwan’. By this time Osho had changed his name and the parents found it amusing that the little girl kept saying ‘Bhagwan’ and eventually started saying it when pointing at a large Osho photo hanging on a living room wall. A few months later, her twin sister began doing exactly the same. There were a lot of stages in between but, to cut to the chase, the essence of the report is that both of the twins have clear memories of Osho, Poona One, and who they were in that past life. Turns out they were both Poona One sannyasins and they can both remember their sannyasin names. The girl who began saying Bhagwan first can remember her previous incarnation in some detail, to the extent that she can recall where she grew up in South Germany last time around. There are a few details I could add but that is the essence of my friend’s report and there is more to tell.
When Hari told me this story I kind of took it with a pinch of salt. That evening we were going out and I pretty much forgot about it. My ideas about reincarnation at the time can be summed up in the following. I believed that when someone dies something essential leaves the body, but that something is not your personality. The personality dies with the body. Hari returned to Maui. I have had a couple of short emails about a year ago and that is it. The subject of the twin girls did not arise again.
During the last year, I began to hear various reports on Ibiza about children with either one or two sannyasin parents on Ibiza, who have past life memories. There are six children that I know of. I immediately thought about Hari’s story, upon hearing this for the first time. The children are aged between 7 and mid to late teens, and can all remember to a greater or lesser extent their previous lives as sannyasins. I have not met any of these kids and only know the parents from seeing them around, if at all. According to reports, the kids all remember their sannyasin names. I have sat around with friends and discussed the matter in some depth. My standpoint until recently was that you cannot be sure if these kids are who they say they are, as it could be a case of residual memories of dead people floating around in the astral soup and the children’s sensitive minds picking up on it. Lokesh the logical.
In March, I was invited to a small Enlightenment Day celebration. The event was held at a couple’s house, who are relatively new to Ibiza. The house overlooks the sea on the south coast of the island, near Es Vedra, a famous beauty spot. My first impression was who won the lottery? The ten-bedroom house must be worth at least ten million Euros. Absolutely fantastic does not quite sum it up. Yes, I was impressed.
The host and hostess were introduced to me. The hostess used to work in the Diksha’s kitchen during the late 70′s in Poona One. In her late teens during that time both her parents were sannyasins. She seemed familiar but I did not remember her. Her husband, a hedge fund manager, is not a sannyasin. Both of these people struck me immediately as being open-hearted and highly intelligent. I got chatting with the hostess, exchanging names from the old days until we made a connection, an old girlfriend of mine who worked in the mala shop. Two young women in their early twenties approached and the hostess introduced me to her daughters. Very attractive and both obviously spoiled rotten, too busy with there i-phones to pay much attention to an old guy like me..
The afternoon progressed. Over a buffet table I once again sparked up a conversation with the hostess. We started talking about Ibiza’s current water shortage and such commonplaces. It was then that a very tall man in his mid-twenties approached us. The man had exceptionally bright and clear blue eyes and something about his presence made me pay attention. He was squeaky clean and immaculately dressed in very straight clothes. ‘This is my son V,’ said the hostess, by way of introduction. V smiled and drew close and spontaneously embraced me. I was somewhat surprised by the energy that passed between us. V disengaged, stood back, put his hands on my shoulders and looked deeply into my eyes. After a few moments he chuckled and said, ‘You don’t remember me do you?’ By this time I was beginning to feel uncomfortable. Something was going on that I was unaware of. The hostess gave a nervous laugh beside me and then said to her son, ‘Come on, V, don’t play games.’ The exceptionally handsome young man dropped his hands to his side and gave me a sideways look. Then he said, ‘Last time I saw you was at A’s house in Chapora.’ I have not visited Goa in over thirty years. A was a friend, now deceased, who ran an Osho meditation centre during the seventies on the Chapora road. I looked at V and said, ‘Last time I was in Goa you might not have been born.’
V took a step back and said, ‘Lokesh, its me, V.’ The V in this case was a sannyasin woman’s name who I knew in Goa in the seventies. She died in the late seventies. We were not close friends and she was a bit older than me. I looked up to her at the time, a larger than life musician who had big energy and a lot of confidence.
I felt suddenly very emotional. V said, ‘Remember the time Bhagwan visited A’s house and we all blew our minds?’ I will not go into that particular story right now, but I certainly remembered it.
‘Fucking wow!’ I exclaimed. ‘Man,’ I said to V, ‘Is this some kind of joke.’ Hundred percent sure that it was not.
V burst out laughing and said, ‘I see you still like swearing like a good Scotsman should.’
This was hitting me like a psycho bomb. I started to cry. I sat down on a bench and V and his mum sat on each side of me, placing a comforting arm over my shoulders.
That was an afternoon that I will never forget. It has turned my world upside down. I could say lots more about this but will leave it at that. V works in cancer research in a London clinic and is a wonderful human being. He remembers not just his life as a sannyasin but other incarnations as well and I believe him absolutely. He is very matter of fact about it, but certainly does not dwell overmuch on his past life recollections, being fully engaged with his work in this life. We chatted and laughed a lot; V has a great sense of humour. Just an amazing person. |V returned to London the day after I met him. His parents expressed a wish to see me again soon. I am a bit busy at the moment and it has not happened yet.
I realize upon writing this that there are many aspects of this story that could be delved into and that I have skipped over a few details that would have embellished my report, and perhaps made it more credible. As I said, I am very busy right now and do not have the time to go into this any more than I have. I am also not interested in proving that what I have reported is true. It is up to you whether you believe it or not. As the old man was fond of saying, belief and doubt are two aspects of the same coin.
To conclude. I have already said perhaps more than I should have in certain respects. There is no big secret going on about any of what I have told you. |All the people I have mentioned are busy with this life and as I said at the beginning I have kept all concerned annonymous out of respect for people’s privacy, all of whom held one common denominator, they were all very matter of fact about the whole thing. I find it amazing and inspirational, perhaps you will also.
Since I first began writing this article I have heard through friends and aquaintances reports about other children in Holland and Germany who remember their lives as a sannyasins in a previous incarnation. It would appear that their sannyas name, Bhagwan, and a preference for wearing orange or red coloured clothes are, generally speaking, things they all hold in common.
When in comes to a worldview framework I am today more influenced by Gurdjieff than Osho. Mr G rarely speaks about anything directly concerning reincarnation. Ouspensky went into the subject in some depth in his chapter ‘Eternal recurrence and the laws of Manu’ wherein he describes how it is more feasible to see people reincarnating in the past. Yeah, that is an interesting one. Be that as it may, the sannyasin pheonixs are not something that I can ignore and it makes me wonder about the impact of contact with Osho and receiving a Sanskrit name with a more ancient and powerful phonetic charge than say a European name. Yes, Osho was right, Life is a mystery and not a problem to be solved.
“But now even psychiatrists are finding that it seems to be true. People can remember their past lives; the idea of reincarnation is gaining ground.”
It`s true! Apparently, the new I-Phone 7 has got an app in it you can use to receive calls from your past life.
The lad next door has got one. He got a call from a guy with a funny name in India only yesterday, and a guy asked him:
“Have you had an accident that wasn`t your fault in the last 30 years?”
He was blown away!
“That`s amazing ” he said, “how did you know that? I was run over by a bus in 1977! ”
“You could be entitled to karmic compensation.”
“Nice one, I could do with a bit of that.”
Wow, Frank,
All ingredients of a fulminating story came into full blossom in your responses (not only this one).
We have wealthy surroundings, almost even Hollywood-style, we have the hint that ´nothing ever dies´. But is transformed?
And we have the hint in that story that friendship and enmity often comes from deep down sympathy/ antipathy as kind of recognition of close familiarity.
That you and maybe others got hooked and inspired with fantasies to live out (as real and one-to-one) a vengeance in the ´karma-carousel´and feeling legitimised to do so, is no surprise.
Sadly enough.
Otherwise, the here presented story by Lokesh has many predators and will have many follow-ups. Probably. Especially in times of great crises and insecurities to face. Individually as collectively.
I address this to you because of your special roundabout bashing of my contributions here at SN yesterday, which always takes new (old and preferably sexist) turns. You are not alone in that approach, neither to ´read´others like me this way, nor to contribute in abundance.
Has nothing to do with being present in the Present. You can call me anything. It has nothing to do with my reality and nothing to do with that which I am – and neither with yours.
It may be the reason why, especially in the field of ´anonymous´ stories that get materialized so often, they are into competition, jealousy (hidden or openly recognizable) or even war stuff, in a very broad sense.
Too bad. Osho´s invitation to drop the past is a living one, another way to look at what we call ´PHOENIX´.
In the 70s of the last century He often talked in His responses to disciples’ questions about the reincarnation stuff. Maybe Arpana, as one quoting champion amongst others here, like Samarpan or Swamishanti too, could find the one or others about His fabulous paradoxical approach to that issue?
Madhu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gva_j5C1IYY
I had a past life dream once, in the early eighties, and I dreamt this Swami, who was later at Medina, had been my hangman in a previous life.
So you were well hung in your last life?
They all say that, darling!
And no change.
What a post, what a sharing. I will read it in two or three parts.
Master storyteller you are, lokesh. The way you describe, reviving the art of story telling.
Great post, Lokesh.
You have ended with my favourite Osho quote…a Mystery indeed. That quote changed my life. I first came across it in chapter one of Poona 1′s (1978) ‘Dance Your Way to God: A Darshan Diary’ in this form:
“Life is not a problem. It is a mystery to be lived.”
Reincarnation is a fascinating part of the mystery. Recently I have been drawn to literature about navigating the bardo between death and rebirth. A good book is: ‘Preparing to Die: Practical Advice and Spiritual Wisdom from the Tibetan Buddhist Tradition’, by Andrew Holecek.
“Part One shows how to prepare one’s mind and how to help others, before, during, and after death. The author explains how spiritual preparation for death can completely transform our relationship to the end of life, dissolving our fear and helping us to feel open and receptive to letting go in the dying process. Daily meditation practices, the stages of dying and how to work with them, and after-death experiences are all detailed in ways that will be particularly helpful for those with an interest in Tibetan Buddhism and in Tibetan approaches to conscious dying.”
Based on Lokesh´s story I can say with some esoteric surety, during next life many of you ladies and gentlemen are going to spend twilight years of your life in the extended campus of Osho Commune International.
This Shantam being the chairman of the foundation will ascertain commune construct old disciples’ habitat too!
On the other side, I pray to my God many times, “Enough is enough. Next life please have mercy, no birth in Islamic families and I don´t want to get entangled with any kind of religious or spiritual book(s).”
I love human beings and plain paper towels!!
There have been signs of babies being identified as being the reincarnations of old sannyasins up in Nepal.
Some of these children have even been considered as being possible ‘Bodhisattvas’ or future buddhas that will help humankind.
“Rajni, Rajnee”, the young ones have been heard to come out with as some of their first sounds.
And some of the young kids have been observed, in their play-pen, lifting both arms in the air and chanting “oo-hoo, Hoo!, Oo-Hoo!” during playtime, as if mimicking the movements of the dynamic meditation technique.
One of these kids was heard to be asking himself, “Who am I? Who am I?” during his school lunch-break.
Thanks, Anubodh.
I agree about the pseudo-science, and it is certainly reassuring that someone else at SN looks like they know the difference between science and pseudo-science.
I consider reincarnation a really rum business myself. It makes sense to know one has one life only, otherwise, as in Indian Hinduism, people go on living their lives quiescently, always reassured that in another life they will overcome all the obstacles to enlightenment.
It seems to me even if reincarnation could be proved, which I consider a silly pursuit, then it would be better if people simply accepted they had one life because they will make every effort in that life to overcome all obstacles.
I consider Lokesh’s ‘story’ to be what Graham Greene used to call, “an entertainment”. He divided his work into “real” novels, and “entertainments”. Lokesh, don’t forget, is a published novelist, and well able to use his imagination!
PM,
It’s my observation that the erroneous belief that you are more than the physical body has always been the root cause of much of the disruption in the world.
Some young kid walks into a crowd of innocent people wrapped in explosives and blows himself and all to pieces.
Why?
Presumably, because he believes he will then go to Paradise.
But what if you could get into his dumb head that’s incorrect and all that will happen is that he will simply cease to exist?
Would he still press that button?
I agree, Anubodh. It’s a good point you make.
Anubodh, most probably you and me and us will also press the buttons if we get influenced by their book as we are with our books.
This idea that someone is a hollow bamboo and God/Allah/Existence is speaking through him and therefore every word is a divine word, nothing can be changed or altered even, it is nonsense.
Look at few bloggers here, how they go all the way not just for the sake of O instead of M, but the high priests who give interpretations suited with their self-interests.
Now think about the person ready to die for ‘Jannat’, how intensely he has left aside his personal ego. Just imagine, for meditation sake, you are going to blow yourself up, how many desires and wishes and longings and attachments in the mind will say, “Please don´t die for our sake.”
All this inner churning is what religions say is ego.
There’s a whiff of Wilkie Collins (the Victorian sensationalist novelist) about Lokesh’s piece that set off my own bullshit detector. I enjoy his writing immensely (do check out his novels), but he is a bit of a mischief-maker – Loki, you could even call him – playing on our wish to believe.
And then there’s the old Incredible String Band song rolling around my head: “Lovers and friends meet again and again/ On the dear old battlefield.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Xqii9Z4xk
Haviz, the String Band song you mention is an old favourite that Norwegian Yogeshwar used to play back in the old days.
Yes, a bit of sensationalism is just about right. Beats the hell out of tired rants about who is running the show in the Resort, for sure.
Funny how people get on the past life number when they do not have a clue who they are in this one. Such is life. Let’s trust we are on the road to Findout land. Aye, and it’s the journey that counts.
Thanks for the novel plug, Haviz. Still waiting on the movie deal to come around. ‘Mind Bomb’, the blockbusting series. Dream on.
2058
World will listen, the year’s Nobel Prize in Medicine has been given to one American doctor for his novel breakthrough in Parkinson;s disease treatment.
Who knows, mainstream western society has become aware till then to understand that greatest scientist of our time was the greatest boxer in the previous life. All is possible.
I am not sure whether the doctor´s name will be similar like Dr. Cassius M. Jain or Dr. Islam M. Ali!
“Osho says: “The very idea of reincarnation, which has arisen in all the Eastern religions, is that the self goes on moving from one body to another body, from one life to another life.”
Which begs the question, what is this migrating “self”? As Lokesh says, surely not the ever-changing personality, arising from the body and our responses to external influences?
So all the casual talk of ‘my past lives’, as if the self-same body/mind entity has somehow existed in other, now deceased, bodyminds is self-evidently just a load of unexamined hot air.
But (apart from one I won’t name and shame) we’re all on the same page here, aren’t we? It’s a lovely day – I say, anyone for tennis? Er, sorry, I mean, an enlightenment intensive? Do tell me who think you are….
Enough to cogitate on regarding this life, let alone start adding speculation about previous lives. Holy moly.
Most probably, Satyadeva was once a student in India who took two years to pass one class. He is compensating in this life to prove smarter than others by being non-stop on fault-finding mission.
My grandfather was a primary school teacher. He used to say, “Duffer pupils have always heavy school bags.”
Be careful, Shantam,
You should be aware that every post you address to SD tightens your karmic ties to his soul.
At this rate SD will be your mum in your next life!
And what with him still having a few centuries of brutal Anglo-Saxon protestant conditioning still to act out, you might get a bit roughed up and sent out to get a job.
Are you ready for that?
Put that ton weight bag down, Shantam, wake up and re-read what I wrote, not what you like to imagine I wrote.
In other words, get on the same bloody page, you Duffer!
Lokesh,
I don`t think there will ever be scientific evidence of past lives.
So, any `truth` around the matter will be a more a matter of artistic or subjective truth. That is to say, essentially a matter of taste.
A painting, a poem, a song or a good story are true not just in the sense of whether they are factually correct or not. More importantly, they `ring true` in the sense that they engender a particular type of experience in the reader/listener/spectator that feels right/true.
It`s not much used, but true is also a verb – ‘to true’ means ‘to bring (an object, wheel, or other construction) into the exact shape or position required’.
In a creative sense, ‘true’ could mean that the painting or story can have an effect of ‘truing’ one`s sense of self/reality.
So sticking to this sense of true, and leaving aside discussions about the truth or otherwise of the theory of reincarnation, would it be presumptuous of me to say that this narrative may be about the possibilities for the author and his readers to ‘true’ the value of their own past?
“I don`t think there will ever be scientific evidence of past lives.” (Frank)
“Probably the best known, if not most respected, collection of scientific data that appears to provide scientific proof that reincarnation is real, is the life’s work of Dr.Ian Stevenson. Instead of relying on hypnosis to verify that an individual has had a previous life, he instead chose to collect thousands of cases of children who spontaneously (without hypnosis) remember a past life.
Dr. Ian Stevenson uses this approach because spontaneous past life memories in a child can be investigated using strict scientific protocols. Hypnosis, while useful in researching into past lives, is less reliable from a purely scientific perspective.
In order to collect his data, Dr. Stevenson methodically documents the child’s statements of a previous life. Then he identifies the deceased person the child remembers being, and verifies the facts of the deceased person’s life that match the child’s memory. He even matches birthmarks and birth defects to wounds and scars on the deceased, verified by medical records. His strict methods systematically rule out all possible “normal” explanations for the child’s memories.
Dr. Stevenson has devoted the last forty years to the scientific documentation of past life memories of children from all over the world. He has over 3000 cases in his files. Many people, including skeptics and scholars, agree that these cases offer the best evidence yet for reincarnation.
Dr. Stevenson’s credentials are impeccable. He is a medical doctor and had many scholarly papers to his credit before he began paranormal research. He is the former head of the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Virginia, and now is Director of the Division of Personality Studies at the University of Virginia.”
Scientific Proof of Reincarnation: Dr. Ian Stevenson’s Life Work
http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-proof.htm
There was that American boy. His parents were convinced that he was the reincarnation of Osho, because he used to spend hours playing with his die-cast Rolls-Royce model cars, and insisted on adding more and more of the same model to his collection.
Meanwhile, someone in India is convinced that Osho himself has reincarnated as Digember Jain Sadhu:
https://youtu.be/RoykNenuAms
Samarpan writes: “Many people, including skeptics and scholars, agree that these cases offer the best evidence yet for reincarnation.”
Why would skeptics agree that there was evidence for reincarnation at all? If they did, they wouldn`t be skeptics!
So that`s propagandist bullshit.
And what Stevenson has written has been widely discounted as scientific proof by other scientists. So proof does not exist, but some evidence has been offered.
I am not sure how convincing his evidence is, although it is definitely scientifically and statistically provable that it is more convincing if you already believe in reincarnation!
It`s all just:
Do you believe in God or not type stuff, to me.
An old-time religionist type like yourself – it doesn`t surprise me you have faith.`
There`s lots of things that are well worth the candle that haven`t been scientifically proven yet, but I`m not holding my breath waiting for egg-heads in white coats to validate them!
“Why would skeptics agree that there was evidence for reincarnation at all? If they did, they wouldn`t be skeptics!” (frank)
“A skeptic is one who prefers beliefs and conclusions that are reliable and valid to ones that are comforting or convenient, and therefore rigorously and openly applies the methods of science and reason to all empirical claims, especially their own. A skeptic provisionally proportions acceptance of any claim to valid logic and a fair and thorough assessment of available evidence, and studies the pitfalls of human reason and the mechanisms of deception so as to avoid being deceived by others or themselves. Skepticism values method over any particular conclusion.”
Steven Novella, skepticblog.org
Samarpan,
You are keen on quotations.
Can you find one by a skeptic who believes in re-incarnation?
“Can you find one by a skeptic who believes in re-incarnation?” (Frank)
It seems a normal question (or, at least, what we take a normal question to be). But how can I know you even exist, Frank? We might just be fictional characters who are currently experiencing a very vivid dream. How can we know anything for sure? How can I know skeptics even exist? Could skeptics just be in my imagination?
How can I be sure this question about quotes from “skeptics” about reincarnation is not just part of a butterfly’s dream? Maybe gravity and rocks and everything else is just as insubstantial, part of the butterfly’s dream? What can we be sure of?
Being radically skeptical about everything seems to lead to nihilism: “extreme skepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence.” Is that your belief, Frank? Why do you believe that? Do you exist? What is your proof? Are these meaningful questions? What criteria would you use to accept an answer as valid?
Sam,
A more honest and clear answer to my question:
“Can you find one by a skeptic who believes in re-incarnation?” would have been “No”.
Instead, you have started doing the Advaita Shuffle.
You must have left your Occam`s razor in the bathroom!
The Advaita Shuffle – isn’t that where the guy floats like a buttercup and stings like a tree?
Or where he floats like a butterfly and stings like a dream, perhaps?
“You have been listening to advaita, the unity, the one, but whatsoever you have done, you have created two. And you have created such a gap between the two that they look unbridgeable. Because of this Shankara had to talk about maya and illusion. You have created such a gap between this world and that world, they cannot be bridged. So what to do?”
Osho, ‘A Bird on the Wing’ chap. 4
Advaita Shuffle (colloq.)
(Not to be confused with -with the Ali Shuffle or the Harlem Shuffle, altho’ some similarities may exist).
1. Conversational gambit of jumping to the absolute level at odd times. Like when the receptionist asks why you were late for your doctor’s appointment: “There’s no one here to go anywhere or be late for anything.”
2. Using advaita philosophy as a strategy for avoiding the uncomfortable dualistic facts of practical human life. Usually by questioning the reality of another in a conversation by shifting levels, eg:
“Why do you believe that? Do you exist? What is your proof? Are these meaningful questions? What criteria would you use to accept an answer as valid?”
3. Using out-of-context quotes from advaita masters to establish that the other is living in an illusion, thus relieving the quoter from having to make any effort to verify previous badly- thought-out assertions.
Aka (in polite intellectual circles) as sheer, unadulterated sophistry.
Or (in basic common sense circles) as complete and utter, transparent bollox.
Samarpan,
Came home late; but before midnight like to thank you for the diversity of your contributions to the topic (including the article you posted).
As far as bridging unbridgeable ´gaps´ are concerned, I felt ar home with:
“The interesting part is trying to find out what they indicate….If you don`t know what something is find out what it`s for.” (Frank)
It´s the more the way, then, how water works when it´s meeting obstacles. We ´humans are quite fluid, aren´t we?
I am very much enjoying the chat these two days, as so-called ´reincarnation MINUS any ideology is what it is.
Osho´s words pointed to the moon, so to say.
And we may learn to swim and float, if there is no bridge. (His genius talked us through the case of that girl, mentioned in the article…she was, as far as I remember, de-hypnotized-hypnotized, to cope with her new´family and it must be nice to be born and grow up in a country where such cases are not ending up in a psychiatric asylum but taken care of in a way of understanding).
Madhu
Why are you shifting the topic away from the questions I posed to you by bringing up advaita? What is advaita?
Interesting that Dr Stevenson dedicated 40 years of his life to this research and yet reached (amongst others) these conclusions:
“Isn’t it often a disadvantage to remember a previous life?
Stevenson: Oh. I think so. These children become embroiled in divided loyalties. In many cases children have rejected their parents, saying they are not their real parents and have often started down the road toward their so-called real homes. In other cases, they insist on being reunited with their former husbands, wives, or children. One Indian boy was passionately attached to the woman he said had been his former mistress and was trying to get her back, causing himself and her real distress.
Omni: What advice do you have for those who have no memories of a previous life?
Stevenson: Some persons have said it is unfair to be reborn unless you can remember details of a previous life and profitably remember your mistakes. They forget that forgetting is essential to successful living in the present. If every time we walked, we were to remember how we stumbled, we would fall again. I’ve also had people envy children who remember previous lives, as if these children had special wisdom. In fact, it makes more sense to look upon them as suffering from an abnormality, almost a defect. The memories they have are often more of a handicap than a blessing; and they nearly all become happier as they grow older and forget their previous lives. To paraphrase Jesus Christ, sufficient unto one life is the evil thereof.”
I agree with Arpana (and so, it seems, does Dr Stevenson!). Perhaps this area is best left well alone unless/until one is evolved enough to understand and absorb its practical implications (if any) for one’s own life. Otherwise, it so easily degenerates into useless speculative entertainment, another mind game to fill one’s precious time (Shantam, please note!).
“Perhaps this area is best left well alone” (Satyadeva)
I agree and want to work with what is known. I know I am going to die, so I am preparing myself for that process/event…the rest will take care of itself. Sufficient unto the day, etc.
Still, I’m glad Lokesh shared his disconcerting experience about reincarnation. I concur with Lokesh and Osho about the Mystery. I am open to the possibility of reincarnation.
Sufficient unto the present the breath I am now taking…now the in-breath…now the gap between in and out breaths…now the out-breath. This moment is enough mystery.
It`s interesting and strange that after all that research Stevenson seemed to conclude that remembering past lives is psychologically harmful. I wonder why he persisted.
One reason was that, apparently, he was left a shedload of cash by a millionaire to continue his research.
Seeing as how he finally discovered that it is forgetfulness that does the healing, he probably should have spent the money on fast cars, birds and booze.
Here`s an interesting one from his wiki page:
“In the 1960s, Stevenson set a combination lock using a secret word or phrase, and placed it in a filing cabinet in the department, telling his colleagues he would try to pass the code to them after his death. .
The lock remains unopened.
Altho` he did note: “A recently deceased person who survives death will have many new experiences to assimilate and many things on his mind apart from the combination lock that he set,” Stevenson wrote. “So will the persons he has left behind.”
In ‘Wind of the Willows’, after Otter sees Pan (I think the chapter is ‘Piper at the Gates of Dawn’, also the name of a Pink Floyd album) there is a line at the end of that chapter which refers to the gift of forgetting.
Well, I had always had (Just one of my myriads ballocks hang-ups in those days) a hang-up about memory, and that line was a revelation to me. I came to understand how important forgetting is, which I had certainly not got until that point in my life (this was after I took sannyas).
“he was left a shedload of cash by a millionaire to continue his research.” (Frank)
LOL. Evidence of the existence of reincarnation produced by the scientific method is verifiable and its veracity is not dependent upon funding sources.
It may not be a good thing to remember past lives…but that also does not invalidate their existence.
The validity of Osho’s words on reincarnation (his past lives) is not changed by Osho having a “shedload” of Rolls Royces. It has nothing to do with it.
Just as the scientific validity of Einstein’s work is not influenced by the kind of car Einstein drove, or who funded his research. The funding source matters not… as long as proper and consistent protocol is observed.
Osho was perfectly consistent on reincarnation, as he was on many other subjects. Osho did not contradict himself by sometimes saying reincarnation was bogus, and other times saying he remembered his past lives.
Much of what Osho taught was pretty standard non-controversial stuff, i.e., (1) Karma is “Whatever you do in unawareness…” (2)
The Samskaras are Karmic inheritance, conditioning, and (3) Pratisprasava is reversal of samskara process. Meditation (relaxed, alert, nonjudgemental awareness) is pratisprasava, a return to our natural state of bliss. Hence, Osho’s emphasis for 35 years on meditation.
Osho does challenge some traditional teachings, i.e., karma and rebirth are:
(1) not a way to legitimize social order (caste)
(2) not the power domain of priests/parents
(3) not to teach self-repression (asceticism)
(4) not to instill fear (punishment in next life)
Osho says karma is strongly connected to unawareness (avidya) and Osho stresses avidya over samskaras.
For Osho rebirth is related to spiritual path. Spiritual path (neo-Sannyas) means being authentic in the here and now. It means evolving beyond humanism through de-focal meditation, which is what Osho consistently taught for 35 years.
Being real and being aware means you do not accumulate bad karma and rebirth.
Osho accepts karma and rebirth as taught by Patanjali with regard to Sancita (accumulated from past lives); Parabdha (what you work out in this life); and Kriyaman (day-to-day part of Parabdha).
Osho differs from tradition in saying every moment is a chance to do something or not to do something and the correct way to work out karma is not to attempt a good reaction rather than a bad one, but rather not to react at all. Observe the reaction. Allow it to be, but unexpressed.
For Osho, awareness is key, not cultivation of good karma. Of the three aspects of mind: Kriyaman (conscious domain of mind), Prarabdha (subconscious) and Sancita (unconscious), Osho says work on Kriyaman first.
Kriyaman are our day to day physical activities.
When eating eat, when walking walk, etc. Avoid zombie-ism: “Be Here-Now”
We then can address Prarabdha, to be aware of subtle nuances, emotions. And then we can address Sancita. By bringing light to your deepest core, you become a Buddha.
The way to do this, as Osho stated hundreds of times over decades, is through increasing awareness, in the Theravadin sense of satipatthana:
Mindfulness of the body
Mindfulness of feelings
Mindfulness of mind (or consciousness)
Mindfulness of surroundings
Cognizance of your subjective presence, development of a shadow-reflex of mindfulness practice, has a quality of deep silence.
The way out of the karma/reincarnation trap is to realize your rationalization, to see deeply you alone are responsible for all your misery and dissatisfaction, and to undertake pratiprasava (flowing back to the cause) through meditation (return to bliss).
Much of his teaching on reincarnation and karma is in Osho’s ten-volume commentary on the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali titled ‘Yoga: The Alpha and the Omega’.
Enjoy!
Samarpan, you can write thesis on the teachings of Indian gurus and their influence. I am sure, doctorate in theology will be damn easy for you.
Sannyas movement needs another scholar who meditates. One Satya Vednat (Dr. Vasant Joshi) is not enough.
Samarpan said,
“Evidence of the existence of reincarnation produced by the scientific method is verifiable and its veracity is not dependent upon funding sources.”
Who funds research is a hugely contentious issue as regards research; and evidence says funding can and does influence outcomes.
When the tobacco lobby funds research into cancer and smoking the outcome is different to when the source is medical school funded.
You’re not seriously suggesting that this one area of research, into reincarnation is apart from that? Come on.
I’m not interested in reincarnation at all. Doesn’t touch me, but this piece by El Loko seems straightforward and genuine reporting of an experience, experiences, and I’ve had experiences that I can’t explain or prove, loosely in this area.
Yes, hats off to Lokesh for a good article that has stirred the pot.
Arps,
Forgetfulness is an amazing thing. The verb `to forget` is misleading and gives the impression that it’s something that you can do. When in fact it just happens to you.
Also, before past-life memories can be verified, Cryptomnesia, that is, when a memory that has been picked up and then re-experienced as something new, has to be discounted.
Cryptomnesia happens regularly in everyone`s life. It comes to public attention for example, in writing, song writing etc. when those accused of plagiarism swear blind they can`t remember hearing or reading the original.
I did a past-life regression session myself years ago, and remembered myself as a famous historical person (don`t laugh!). The odd thing was that some time later I read something about that person in a biography that tallied with my memory. I had no memory of ever having come across this information prior to my session, but, considering it, I could not honestly discount that I had.
The fact that these people, both in Stevenson`s research and Lokesh`s story, came from a background where re-incarnation was taken as a given and also may well have overheard or read stories about their ‘previous selves’ would have to be taken into account.
But like, say, on a symbolic/dream/life narrative level these experiences are all true. The interesting part is trying to find out what they indicate.
“If you don`t know what something is find out what it`s for.”
“I don`t think there will ever be scientific evidence of past lives.” (Frank)
Before we go that far to ask for scientific evidence of existential secrecy, simple and foremost question to ask is, ” Is there a scientific evidence of Enlightenment and Avatars syndrome?”
Fascinating stuff, Lokesh. The questions it raises take us into a mystery, but such questions also deserve an exploration, even if we cannot provide any full explanation.
So often these tales have that far off hearsay quality, or they are so fantastical as to make no sense at all. Perhaps that is the point of them – they reveal a story that is so out of our comprehension that they just confuse and mystify us and leave us with a deeper sense of mystery and expansion.
That these tales are surfacing amongst sannyasins makes me wonder if they are also happening within other so-called spiritual groups, or within wider society. I have no knowledge of this.
In any case, what is the purpose behind such tales? What does V or the other reincarnates tell us or show us from their accounts? Is their fear of death lessened in any way? How is their current life affected by their awareness of past lives? How has it affected V or others who are experiencing this phenomenon?
Lokesh himself reveals that it has turned his world upside down, but doesn’t tell us how. Why does he cry? Perhaps if we explore these questions we may discover the deeper purpose behind such events. I’ve no doubt it would be very strange if someone appeared to me with some knowledge of previous interaction with me in their past life. I don’t know how I’d feel. I know I’d wish to question them very deeply and get precise details of the events they remember from the interactions with me. In order to question how real it is.
Perhaps when Lokesh is a little less busy he would care to elaborate more on the events and synchronicity he encountered. I’d love to know more.
I don’t care about Stevenson, I care about what Osho explained. He talked a lot about all this reincarnation business, and what happened with those kids who remembered it. Very sad, indeed! Don’t bother with past lives, it doesn’t help in living this life, so he said, and I believe him.
To be honest, guys, it’s very confusing to me to remember my adolescent years, what to say about my past life..?
Anyway, nice one, McLoke, you did it again. Cheers!
For the record’s sake, let me add that during the discourses in last phase of His life, Osho has talked about one American psychiatrist and his book, ‘Many Lives, Many Masters’. I hope some other blogger must be present in Buddha Hall on that evening. Sometimes I wonder, am I the only one at sannyasnews who has first-hand experience of last years of Osho and His commune (basically, commune was a kind of resort)?
Dr. Brian L. Weiss is one such person whose name will be part of Osho literature.
Similar to the The Dunning-Kruger Effect, which describes you to the letter, Shantam, but pithier.
2058
World media will give the news, the year’s Nobel Prize in Medicine has been given to one American Doctor for his novel breakthrough in Parkinson’s Disease treatment.
Who knows, mainstream western society has become aware before then to understand that greatest scientist of our time was the greatest boxer in the previous life. ‘Newsweek’ or ‘Time’ will have cover feature on the two lives of “The Greatest”.
All is possible, but I am not sure whether the doctor´s name will be similar like Dr. Cassius M. Jain or Dr. Islam M. Ali!
It seems finally in their sixties Lokesh and other westerns with Indian names have accepted the theory of reincarnation; that there is a very subtle system operating somewhere in the cosmos sending us like porn, music and talks to different locations.
Now what?
Many spiritualists have this burning wish or borrowed idea to delete the profile for ever and drop out from the chain of Life and Death. For what?
Oh, it is so juicy, so peaceful to be no one. It is bliss, contentment and and and….
Many times I think this description of spiritual lollipops is like an unconscious wish of mankind suffering from the idea of premature ejaculation. ‘Screwing without Cumming’ Jihadi version is what makes talk about bliss so alluring.
Samarpan has taken the time and trouble to cut and paste from Dr Ian Stevenson’s webpage what they both believe is scientific evidence/proof for reincarnation.
Unfortunately, what Dr Stevenson is presenting to the world is not science (as he claims), but pseudoscience.
The big giveaway is that a bona fide scientist will use the ‘evidence’ from their research to make a prediction about the future and then test that prediction against real-world events or experiments. And when prediction and experiment tally then, and only then, can it be presented as proof.
So tell us, Samarpan:
What correct future prediction has Dr Stevenson’s large volume of data made that entitles him to claim that his work is scientific proof?
Osho’s reference to psychiatrists in the opening quote of this string is at least 30 years out of date. Today, neurologists with access to state-of-the-art MRI scanners now understand how the brain encodes its experiences. A test subject can be shown various objects and they can watch in near real time neural pathways being formed in the brain. Pathways which represent the memory of that object. And when asked to recall the objects the same pattern of neurons can be seen to be active which, the subject then experiences as a memory.
So when you recall a memory from your past a unique pattern of neurons are firing in your brain. A memory from a believed past life would require access to the long dead brain which encoded them. Which means such memories have somehow been acquired in this life.
You could always employ a ‘spooky patch’ as a workaround and maybe say that memories of a past life are recalled from the ‘Astral Plane’ or some such place, In which case, if that’s how memories can be recalled – why has Nature evolved neural pathway encoding?
If people wish to believe in reincarnation, then so be it. My objection is when the word ‘science’ is used to back up and bolster dubious faith.
I don`t know why, but the whole scientific evidence schtick reminds me of a story told by Osho about when he went to visit the Bastar tribes up in the boondocks of Madya Pradesh.
Osho said he was present when a Christian missionary was demonstrating to some Bastar tribesmen the relative merits of Jesus and the local gods, who are artistically represented by local craftsmen as riding in a metalwork boat. (I have one of these simple and beautiful pieces myself that I bought in India years back). The missionary put the metal boat into a bowl of water and it sank; whereas when he produced a wooden Jesus and placed it in the bowl it floated. With this, he scientifically proved the superiority of Jesus!
Osho claimed that he then got the metal icon and the Jesus out of the water and put them both into a fire. The wooden Jesus went up in smoke but the metal boat survived. That`s when things turned nasty: the Bastars, quite a rough crowd when you rub them up the wrong way, by all accounts, kicked off and chased the missionary out of town.
Frank, now you tell frankly, the people who have religious stories in their brain will meet God on priority basis and those with newspapers will send back unceremoniously?
Sometimes I wonder about faceless frank, what prompted this Britisher to follow Osho like a shadow during all the productive years.
In my sincere wish, I hope the average Joes of the world should get heavenly comforts up in the sky and great spiritual seekers should be given utilitarian jobs. How wonderful it will be to see J. krishnamurti, Osho, Mahesh Yogi etc. doing their shift in the Man Power companies Heavenly Ltd.
Shantam,
Not sure that I quite understand what you mean here. I do remember, a while back, you writing that you were on medication, so I expect you are probably just experiencing a few side-effects. Nothing too serious, I hope.
If you are asking whether one would be more likely to be allowed into heaven by either:
1. Knowing some good stories
or
2. By masturbating to the Daily Mail,
then, even as someone who does not believe in God, I would have to go for the former.
I hope that clarifies things for you.
Swami Anand Anubodh,
What you think being enlightened or Avatar is, a matter of dubious faith or it is science? I presume, ready-made answer will be, it is a science of the inner.
When it is a science of the inner than how come one awake person thinks others are pretending to be awake, or vice versa?
Perhaps both Stevenson and I are wrong. Wouldn’t be the first time. Can’t say much else lest it be confused with the “Advaita Shuffle”. LOL!
It is good to distinguish between science and pseudoscience, and to remember that science only provides tentative guesses, albeit based on current evidence, which is always subject to change with new evidence. Anyone embracing scientific method has to be open to discarding what is now ‘known.’
Sam says: “Can’t say much else lest it be confused with the “Advaita Shuffle.”
There`s no confusion.
Those dance steps are unmistakeable!
Parmartha,
What do you mean by “overcome all the obstacles to enlightenment”? I am asking you because you are a level-headed person and won´t use cut and paste.
Why you think enlightenment is that important to put every effort into it, and have you seen some such people in your surroundings?
Shantam the immature shares his adroit/not, manipulation skills/not.
In the end, Shantam, it is the only thing of importance. For, in the end, all the machinations of men, and the life of the planet itself, will come to an end and nothing will be left.
You have been with Osho for nearly 20 years as I remember, so if you don’t know the answer to your question…well…but I will give you a clue: ‘living without ego’.
I have met a few people along the way who have made such efforts, yes.
And a much smaller number who finally lived without ego.
Big P,
Describe ego.
“Samarpan, Came home late; but before midnight like to thank you for the diversity of your contributions to the topic (including the article you posted).” (Madhu)
Thank you, Madhu.
Anubodh says, “Some young kid walks into a crowd of innocent people wrapped in explosives and blows himself and all to pieces. Why? Presumably, because he believes he will then go to Paradise.”
It is a lot more complicated than that. A declaration like that sounds like the impression was formed after reading mainstream press articles. It is too easy to form such a superficial idea like that, which is, of course, the whole idea.
“It is a lot more complicated than that.” (Lokesh)
So true, Lokesh; and yet nothing of that at all, but a very natural processing.*
But if we become more and more aware what human greed and ambition as also clerical ´hedgefundskills´ are making out of it (worldwide btw), it´s no surprise that we become – some more, some less, some not at all – a bit reluctant to share experiences and stories like you did these days.
And thank you, Lokesh, for your sharing.
And thank you for your tears, your being touched, you spoke of.
And thank you for sharing your awe and staying in that with open quests and not (really) pretending a knowing.
It´s but a very few decades now that we are facing major changes. One is to melt into the Digital Age, as we call it. Another one is that the human genome is about to be deciphered and the human genetic engineering has come into full gear.
With – besides amazing consequences also (how else could it be?) – very ugly ones.
Third, amongst other aspects, I would like to name the amount of ambition and greed to play ´the creator´ of human existence.
I don´t know about your area, but here – you won´t believe it, about roughly two decades ago or so – even journalists (not only of the yellow press btw) were dreaming about cloning a J.S.Bach or a Mozart, etc. etc., eager – just like little kids building their Lego castle with plastic stones.
Not to speak about the waves of over-excited Humpty Dumpty greedy talk (and actions).
The so-called Art-World followed and is following with `Avatar I,II,III’ (movies) and so on. Or the ´Tree of Life’ (movie) just to name a very, very few.
There is a mostly very ambitious longing to interpret the `PHOENIX´ in a very materialistic way and misusing the metaphor for power and the misuse of power.
AND there is also a longing we know of, by being lovers, yearning to feel a oneness again, when having been seemingly separated.
Or the longing to be recognized in the loving. As those who we are.
As simple as it is – and above all! – without any war-frame.
Just by chance…
With love,
Madhu
* Also the Tibetan very clear visions and very clear wisdom about these issues is in the processing of changes while melting their Himalayan secrets with a lot more people and sharing in other ways than it was happening before.
***
Takes time to get good gardening skills inside-outside.
****
And thank you all today that I can address my gratitude for your all inspiring contributions here.
Lokesh,
I don’t read mainstream newspapers so any assumption that I do is mistaken (but I have noticed that suicide bombers do tend to receive a negative press).
My post was about a belief in survival ‘after’ the explosion, so whatever the politics were that led up to that point can be taken as a given (or irrelevant).
Rather than ask myself where I might go after I’m dead, I’ve found the question “Where was I before I was born?” to be very expansive. It has a lovely sense of making no-sense to the mind.
Good thing you said there, Simond.
Simond,
Yes, that`s definitely a brain-jammer, that one.
Some have suggested that it could be that reincarnation is really just social conditioning from a past era.
Now, a lot of westerners who have their own conditioning have bunged a load of imported stuff on top of it and are filling their seeker`s rucksacks with a load of stuff to get spiritually obese with.
It`s popular to say that the ancient wise sages and yogis had discovered the truth by their inquiries; through extensive meditation, which was akin to scientific enquiry, they discovered the truth of reincarnation, and then they disseminated it to the people.
It is very strange then, that these uber-wise men in their total scientific/spiritual understanding of the true nature of existence were not able to discover and present the simple truth that men and women are essentially two parts of the same animal, therefore equal in the eyes of `God`. .
How did their wisdom grasp and then disseminate to the ever-pliant masses one more difficult/unknowable fact of reincarnation but miss the bleeding obvious by proclaiming difference in hierarchic spiritual status between the sexes as divine-ordained truth?
In any case, it is true that the idea of transmigration spread over the East because all the authorities, that is the wisest people with the support of the most powerful in the land, proclaimed the truth of it. In their day, they were ultimate authorities. The religious leaders and the kings were the media, church, scientists and the police rolled into one. The law-giver and the truth-giver were hand-in-glove.
They ruled the roost and like today’s scientists they tell you stuff about the universe that you can`t really know yourself. For example, as a layman, you don`t tend to argue with Prof. Brian Cox (famous astrophysicist) about the ins and outs of quantum physics, do you?
In short, the ancient religious authorities had total power of authorisation when it came to what people believed.
So, getting out of the circle of birth and death for people with this conditioning was/is not about removing something from an actual physical scientifically provable state, but about (sin of sin for the no-minders) thinking for yourself, giving the conditioned mind the slip, and noticing that cobbling random bits of the past together to form an identity can be hugely entertaining, but….
When I look back at the near to ten years prior to taking Sannyas, six and a half years prior to that time, the eleven different schools I attended, and the life prior to school days, I feel so disconnected from those times that I have used the phrase “I feel like I’m looking back at another life.”
So I’ve wondered if people who go through life and experience those kinds of disconnects for various reasons have a hand in developing the notion of past lives. (I knew a lovely bloke who was in Auschwitz, and he used the same phrase for his life before, the experience itself, and life since).
P.S:
Osho talks a lot about breaks with the past, and I know that experience well, and I’m making a connection between that experience and the idea of previous lives.
Thanks, Arps, for the reminder. Osho used to say that after sannyas “you are born again”. It is a clue, isn’t it? XX
My immediate ‘now’ began in May last year, Tan; and I have been in a ‘life since’ place since; a sense that I began again.
Arps,
There`s something in that.
One of the things about being a sannyasin and involved with Osho, apart from learning how to meditate and then slowly, silently and with complete awareness becoming perfectly enlightened, of course, was that it gave me and a lot of others a chance to live a few more lives than we might have done otherwise:
Dressing up as carnival holymen and women around the world, taking on a variety of Gurdjeffian odd-jobs, getting married and divorced six times before breakfast, climbing aboard a Rolls-Royce headed for Nirvana city and ending up panhandling at Samsara bus station and all that other stuff I read about in the Daily Mail etc. but couldn`t possibly comment on..!
The more parts you play the more you realise that you can`t be the parts, but you`re something other than the part.
Didn`t Osho say something like that?
This is on the cusp of interested response and a piss-take, so I am a little torn as to how to respond, you utter bastard.
“utter bastard” -
I like that.
Seriously.
Great stuff, Arpana…
Your insight into how the past feels like another life is true.
My experience is the same, even yesterday becomes ‘another life’ if I maintain that insight.
In truth, the only thing that stops me living fully is how much I choose to identify with my self in the past and in thinking I know anything at all.
Yes. That’s it. No longer identifying, having any identity tied up with those past phases.
It`s an odd thing that that non-identification is easier if you have been a fucking idiot in your “previous life”.
I mean, if you have a spiritual biography of showing up at just the right moment to just the right teacher and learning everything in a perfect sequence as the bios of many seekers would have it, how are you ever going to disentangle from that?
Whereas if you have been a total prat, messed up, blown it and lost the plot, then no longer identifying, having any identity tied up with those past phases is a piece of cake….
That is so deep, Frank.
On reflection, not sure I agree with:
“It`s an odd thing that that non-identification is easier if you have been a fucking idiot in your “previous life” “.
Addicts get identified with being addicts. Negative ego, such a bad’n’ is an identity game.
Arps,
Apparently, Dr. Stevenson also conducted scientific enquiries into this field, where he discovered that a significant majority of those who had declared themselves enlightened had actually been “fucking idiots” and “knobheads” in their “previous life”.
Dr.Stevenson’s credentials are impeccable. He is a medical doctor and had many scholarly papers to his credit before he began paranormal research. He is the former head of the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Virginia, and now is Director of the Division of Personality Studies at the University of Virginia.
@frank says:
11 June, 2016 at 9:40 am
Shantams and bell-ends as well, I guess.
Frank boy, you don’t need to be a medical doctor or have many papers to know that “those who declared themselves enlightened had actually been “fucking idiots” and knob heads in their previous life.”
And one should add that not only in their previously life, in this life too, because it is impossible to an enlightened being to declare himself enlightened. Impossible! Cheers!
Tan, you say, “it is impossible to an enlightened being to declare himself enlightened. Impossible!”
Is it?! How do you know this?
Satyadeva,
I am saying it because I met a few enlightened ones, not Masters, just ordinary people. I knew they were enlightened because of the energy field around them.
For what I could understand, they don’t take enlightenment as what most of us. Enlightenment is just a natural thing to happen, nothing that has to be declared.
Maybe it is Shantamism in me! Cheers!
Have sannyasins spent previous lives as hobbits?
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jun/08/flores-fossil-discovery-provides-clues-to-hobbit-ancestors
Some interesting comments. My favourite came right at the beginning of the thread from Frank: “It`s true! Apparently, the new I-Phone 7 has got an app in it you can use to receive calls from your past life.”
Truth be told, my views on reincarnation have not changed much over the past few years. That which most people take to be who they are is a puff of smoke that exists for the short space between the doors of life and death. Ego, or personality, begins forming in the early years of our lives. It is produced by this world and what belongs to the earth, like our bodies, will one day return from whence it came.
To imagine that you will have future lives, or have had past lives, is a fiction. It is a fiction because the YOU that might have those lives only exists for one life. Yes, there is something eternal in us but, sorry folks, it isn’t you. It is far more universal than that. Yes, that certain something may have a flavour of individuality about it, residual memories, habits etc. but I really do not see how a transient entity like you or me can lay any personal claim to it.
During the sixties I did many psychonautic sessions based around the Tibetan Book of the Dead and underwent what can only be described as a dying and rebirth experience where I pretty soon realised that ‘I’ did not amount to much. Central to these experiences was ‘Let Go’. We will all have to do the ultimate let-go one day when the body dies. And just like a powerful psychedelic trip, whether we have a good one or a bad one will be determined by our ability to let go.
I think I am right in saying that Buddha said Karma is not something you will understand by thinking about it. The idea of reincarnation is tied up with karma and therefore it is maybe wise not to think too much about it and just get on with living what appears to be your life today.
On the other hand, I once met an old sannyasin friend walking through the woods near my house. She lived in Osho’s house for many years. I can understand why. She has an uncomplicated view on life and has something very wise about her, meanwhile retaining a childlike personality which is at once charming and playful.
“Hi, Lokesh,” she said upon meeting me.
“We meet again,” said I in response.
“We always will for all eternity,” she then said.
“Do you really believe that?” I enquired.
She chuckled, “Of course. It’s so obvious that we will always meet up from time to time in different bodies, playing different roles.”
There was something that has stayed with me since that chance meeting. I will tell you what. The sneaking suspicion that she was right. Life is so contradictory, isn’t it?
“That which most people take to be who they are is a puff of smoke that exists for the short space between the doors of life and death. Ego, or personality, begins forming in the early years of our lives. It is produced by this world and what belongs to the earth, like our bodies, will one day return from whence it came.
To imagine that you will have future lives, or have had past lives, is a fiction. It is a fiction because the YOU that might have those lives only exists for one life. Yes, there is something eternal in us but, sorry folks, it isn’t you. It is far more universal than that. Yes, that certain something may have a flavour of individuality about it, residual memories, habits etc. but I really do not see how a transient entity like you or me can lay any personal claim to it.”
Excellently put, Lokesh, my sediments entirely, sir! (IE from what I’ve understood from all I’ve read and heard from others).
“There was something that has stayed with me since that chance meeting. I will tell you what. The sneaking suspicion that she was right. Life is so contradictory, isn’t it?”
Absolutely, and as a gambler, hedging your bets can be quite a good option, too!
Costs a lot to win, and even more to lose
You and me bound to spend some time just wonderin’ what to choose
Goes to show, you don’t ever know
Watch each card you play and please play it slow.
(Grateful Dead)
Dear All,
Didn´t know where to add some of strong joke spices Osho used to kick us out of narrow mindedness and/or other dreams during His lectures. Maybe here?:
“The third world war is just starting, and after two thousand years, Jesus Christ arrives, announced in New York.
He has come to give a speech to the United Nations Assembly. It is late and he is tired after his journey. He looks around but finds that none of them has a room. Finally, in a back street, Jesus sees a sign, which reads: £The Camel and Cow Inn – Vacancy”.
He ties his donkey to a lamp post, goes inside and walks up to the receptionist. Putting his hand in his pocket, Jesus pulls out some old rusty nails and throws them on the desk.
“Excuse me”, he asks,”can you put me up for the night?”
(Osho, ‘Joke Book’)
I like that one.
Tho` I think I prefer the ‘Bunga Bunga’ joke as I find it expresses perfectly the futility of choice and the need for choiceless awareness!
“A man enters a modern Chicago whorehouse-nightclub run by the gangland syndicate which is now planning to streamline its image.
The whorehouse takes up various floors of a skyscraper hotel, and he is received by a lovely young receptionist in a sexy uniform, who sits him at a teakwood interview desk and asks how much money he wants to spend.
She explains that prices range from five dollars up to one thousand dollars, depending on the quality and number of girls wanted.
Everything is shown on the television intercom. The higher prices are for the lower floors, which have higher ceilings, mirrors over the beds, three and four girls in bed with you at one time, etcetera.
Lower prices are for lesser delights, ending with five dollars for a “coal-black nigger mammy with big nostrils,” as the lovely young receptionist explains.
The client thinks it over. “Haven’t you anything cheaper than five?” he asks at last.
“Of course,” says the receptionist. “Seventh floor — roof garden. One dollar a shot. Self-service.” ”
Osho
Hi Lokesh and everybody,
There are those moments from time to time, when there is a sudden piercing of the everyday. When I first read ‘The Mustard Seed’ was the first such moment and there was a total certainty felt.
Obviously, in Poona and on the Ranch, this was a constant companion. Since then, not so often, but always noted and an affirmation to keep moving. The same sense of certainty felt on reading this letter – mysterious and wonderful.
Nature must be working overtime how to adjust thousands of sannyasins who are not egoless but refined egos.
My prognosis is that India of next generation will have many Avatars and mini- gurus, many of them from the school of Osho and most of them migrated souls from the West.
Only Hindu civilisation can give such people enough space to operate independently and get enough support from thousands of others on the path.
Being a westerner and talking about ego, godlessness, awakening etc. doesn’t create much impression among one’s own people.
This is one of the reasons more than 90% Satsang teachers cannot afford advertisement cost after a year or so and stop their travelling monk vocation.
No one else at Sannyas News has a bigger image problem than Shantam these days.
Or, to put it perhaps more accurately, it’s hard to think of anyone else who has a bigger gulf between his own self-perception and how the majority of people perceive him; and that gulf explains why most people would rather stay away from him, even actively oppose him, than be a part of his nonsense
Imagine if Hollywood continually produced the same type of films, but that the public in the main continually declined to pay to see them. This reaction would tell the studios something about their product and lead them to change their formula, their presentation…change something about their approach and what they’re selling.
Shantam is somewhat like this, except that in the face of a lack of uptake of what he is selling, instead of trying to make his product more appealing, he constantly berates Sannyas news users for failing to recognise the virtues of his current output, and obstinately continues to churn out more of the same.
At some point, one might think he’d engage in some honest self-reflection and realise that perhaps all this continued resistance has some merit. But it seems that Shantam is so steeped in his own self-righteousness, so sure of the parallel between himself and Osho’s work, and other legitimate sources of spirituality, so convinced that he is definitively and absolutely morally superior to anyone who doesn’t align with his values, that he thinks that eventually the barriers will break down and history will prove him right all along.
I think not.
I would like to post this link to the blog of Christopher Titmuss, who
also just wrote a 4 article series about:
The Place of Rebirth in After Death Views
What Continues after Death?
The View of Future Lives
Awakening
http://christophertitmussblog.org/the-end-in-sight-end-pain-self-exit-assisted-death-suicide-euthanasia-death-and-rebirth-part-four-of-four-rebirth-what-continues-after-death-views-of-future-lives-the-deathless
There he quotes from the Buddha some statements on how “past lives memories” are viewed by the detached mind.
MOD: KLAUS (& ALL POSTERS), DUE TO THIS TOPIC HAVING REACHED A CERTAIN NUMBER OF POSTS WE CAN’T GUARANTEE EVERY NEW ONE WILL BE IN STRICT TIME SEQUENCE (SORRY, “IT’S THE SYSTEM!”).
Hi Klaus, no problem, post the link.
REPLY TO TAN:
Long before he ever declared his enlightenment, before the days of “Bhagwan” and the leading of meditation camps as “Acharya Rajneesh”, Osho was a young professor of philosophy at Jabalpur University.
The other day I was wondering if anyone had noticed anything unusual about the young Osho or been sensitive to the energy that he channelled, then, as some sort of synchronicity perhaps, I came across this video of Arun talking about Osho in his early days, and how his magnetism had attracted some of his students, the energy even sending people out of their bodies during his classes:
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
Thanks, SS. Loved the video. But Arun is declared enlightened, isn’t it? Somebody sooooooo special…He brings Osho’s energy to everybody!
I am talking about people who don’t give a shit about spreading Osho’s word or energy! Even if they are grateful to Osho! XXX
I enjoyed the story about Osho and the snake.
I guess that the David Icke people and the conspiracy theorists would have been suspicious of the snake, but I suspect this is just undercover Christian conditionings.
As Arun points out, the snake has always been rather revered in India and Nepal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x8aIiBDNpE
SS,
At 13:30 mins. in this video, is Arun saying that Osho was arrogant?
And at the 19:00 mins., is Arun saying that Osho had a strange relationship with the tree?
Cheers!
Tan, at 13.30 minutes, Arun says, “You know that Osho is a very arrogant person also, so he resigned; he said, “If you don`t want me to park my car, I don`t want to serve here anymore” –
so that was it, he left.”
And yes, Arun alleges the controversial story that Osho was really in love with a tree whilst in university:
“Whenever he got time, he would come and meet the tree, and hug the tree- they were in a strange relationship.
Whenever he got time he used to come, he didn`t meet any friend, in university faculty, he just used to sit under the tree, and meditate, or go back….”
Cheers!
Arun also says in the vid that Osho loved his plants, and wouldn`t allow anyone to cut or trim them. Still, Osho looks puzzled by the sudden growth of this banana tree…
Thanks, SS, I got it right, then!
Osho seemed arrogant, but he was not, not at all. Arun got it wrong there!
Ok! Osho loved the tree, where is the relationship? Wrong again!
I don’t like this guy Arun.
Cheers, SS.
I find it odd in this long string that no-one mentions that reincarnation is a brilliant strategy by the mind to cancel out the overwhelming fear of death which most of us human beings have…so likely that it’s both its origin and its cancellation.
Face up to death without props seems to me to be the greatest spiritual advice.
I reckon the concept of reincarnation has its roots in observing Nature’s cyclical patterns.
George Lakoff and Mark Johnson in ‘Metaphors We Live By’ pretty much say all concepts that engage us can be traced back eventually to physical reality.
That’s a most interesting observation by the way, and serendipitously relates to reading I am doing at the moment relating to metaphors, which has really engaged my interest.
http://library.acropolis.org/the-philosophical-meaning-of-the-theory-of-reincarnation/