Dionysus the Crucified

Prem Paritosh comments in his book, ‘Life of Osho’ on the last lectures Osho gave

“In December 88, at the height of the last Zen lectures, Osho had a series of heart attacks and nearly died.

Then, early in 89, with that strange resilience he seemed to command at the end of his life, bounced right back with some of the longest and intermittently wildest lectures he had ever given. The same themes are repeated throughout but one series of lectures in particular, Communism and Zen Fire, Zen Wind, (in many ways a response to Gorbachev’s perestroika, which was then at its height) strike a note unique to Osho, and at its most powerful in his last teaching. An insistence on individual enlightenment which is countered and balanced by an equal insistence on world revolution.

1010_PoonaTwoOsho pictured in the last lectures

The way he conceived sannyas socially and politically swings from one extreme to another.

At times he is as energetic and politically radical as he had been in his youth. The Zen Fire, Zen Wind lectures are where he talks of the possibilities of sannyas in Russia – of sannyas in a land with a millennial God-obsession of its own, but with all the spiritual deadwood burnt away by half a century’s atheiism. At one point he seems to have been seriously considering moving to Russia and setting up a bigger and better version of the Ranch. There would have been none of the hostility the basic idea ran into in the States; on the contrary, there could have been a lot of support. “Lenin the Buddha,” he joked; and I don’t think he was just being flippant. Was there a specific point where witnessing and revolutionary action could become one? Gandhi had tried for some such thing, and the fact he had missed did not mean that it was impossible. This is the context in which Osho came up with his splendid slogan “Communism… Anarchism…Zen…” As a programme it’s a fine example of one of his evolutionary series – only applied to society this time, rather than the individual. Politics One. Politics Two. Politics Three. There’s a strategy for real transformation contained in this, which tomorrow’s revolutionariies would do well to ponder…More particularly, it looks to me like we have the missing blueprint for the Ranch here, lost in the debacle at the Big Muddy…

At other times he seemed close to despair. The best sannyasins could hope for was to survive clandestinely – asan underground resistance movement, as a heresy. For some kind of Nemesis, war or plague or some still undreamt-of horror, was looming over society, and there was no longer any way to avert it. He spoke of a “Noah’s Ark of consciousness,” something which could contain and protect a group of people who were sincerely concerned with meditation. For the only thing which stood a chance of turning the tide on earth was a large number of enlightened individuals, working in concert. “But” he said in discourse, “your growth is so slow, there is every fear that before you become enlightened the world will be gone.

You are not putting your total energy into meditation, into awareness. It is one of the things that you are doing, amongst many; and it is not even the first priority of your life.

I want it to become your first priority…

Immense responsibility rests on you because nowhere else in the whole world are people trying, even in small groups, to achieve enlightenment, to be meditative, to be loving, to be rejoicing. We are a very small island in the ocean of the world, but it does not matter. If a few people can be saved, the whole heritage of humanity, the heritage of all the mystics, of all awakened people, can be saved through you”

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71 Responses to Dionysus the Crucified

  1. Parmartha says:

    Prem Paritosh (Pari) used this title heading, “Dionysus the Crucified”. I think at the time there was some confusion about it. Nietzsche in his last letters did use this sort of sign-off, but I think it was “Dionysus versus the Crucified”.

    Dionysus was the same God as Bacchus – a sort of equivalent to the modern Zorba? I was never 100% clear why Paritosh insisted on this chapter heading when I was helping him with the book.

    • Arpana says:

      Dionysus is the god of the irrational and chaos.

    • frank says:

      Here`s some thoughts about Freddie N I found in a commentary on Freddie`s last book, `Ecce Homo’, in which the aforementioned sign-off is to be found. It might be relevant to Sam`s view of Osho`s final days.

      “Nietzsche insists that his suffering is the expected result of hard inquiry into the deepest recesses of human self-deception, and that by overcoming one’s agonies a person achieves more than any relaxation or accommodation to intellectual difficulties or literal threats.

      He proclaims the ultimate value of everything that has happened to him (an example of love of Fate or amor fati). In this regard, the wording of his title was not meant to draw parallels with Jesus, but suggest a contrast, that Nietzsche truly is “a man.” Nietzsche’s point is that to be “a man” alone is to be more than a “Christ-figure.” “

      • Parmartha says:

        Thanks, Frank. You obviously know your Nietzsche! Helpful. I think Pari would have also known this last book of Nietzsche. But what was the exact sign-off that Nietzsche used?

        • frank says:

          Big P,
          “Dionysus versus the crucified” (English translation,of course) is how he signed his last book, ‘Ecce Homo’.

          Often the quote is confused as “Dionysus the crucified”, as you have put in your header. This is because in his final communications and letters, when he was losing his marbles, he also signed his name variously: “Dionysus”, “The crucified”, “Caesar” and “all the names in history”.

          “Dionysus against the crucified” could have been the pagan in him putting up two fingers to Christianity for the last time before he slipped into the void….

          • frank says:

            Btw, re knowing about Nietzsche:
            I never went to university or nothing. I only know something about Freddie N due to the fact that when my misspent youth finally burnt out at about the age of about 40, I needed something to help me get to sleep at night and 19th century German philosophy turned out to be just the ticket.

            Re Paritosh`s chapter heading:
            “Dionysus the crucified” echoes a recurring motif that Osho and Nietzsche both invoked:
            Crucifixion of the wild, alive, enlightened part killed by the powers that be…
            The resentful revenge of the herd against the free…
            Socrates poisoned again…
            One man against ugly past of humanity…
            Jesus crucified again…
            Reich`s “Murder of Christ”…
            Osho`s own insistence of his poisoning at the hands of the US Govt…
            Black magicians hunting him down…

            It`s the Blue Meanies destroying Pepperland…
            For real.

  2. Lokesh says:

    Osho declares, “Immense responsibility rests on you because nowhere else in the whole world are people trying, even in small groups, to achieve enlightenment, to be meditative, to be loving, to be rejoicing.”

    Somehow I find this difficult to take as true. There is an air of desperation about such a statement.

    Osho spoke of a “Noah’s Ark of consciousness”. Once again, Osho lifts something from Nicoll’s Commentaries. The idea of Noah’s Ark is often referred to in those books and is gone into in much detail in regards how esoteric schools hide out when the flood of materialism swamps the Earth and return when man is once more ready to be given a path towards higher understanding.

    “But” he said in discourse, “your growth is so slow, there is every fear that before you become enlightened the world will be gone.”

    Last time I looked, the world was still there, but I know what he means. Nonetheless, prophets of doom were never my cup of tea. It surprised me when Osho wrote his doom and gloom chapter.

    • frank says:

      Lokesh, agreed.

      “Immense responsibility rests on you because nowhere else in the whole world are people trying, even in small groups, to achieve enlightenment, to be meditative, to be loving, to be rejoicing. We are a very small island in the ocean of the world, but it does not matter. If a few people can be saved, the whole heritage of humanity, the heritage of all the mystics, of all awakened people, can be saved through you”

      A statement like this is also an absolute godsend for puffed-up spiritual seekers with delusional inflated identities that need authorisation to hang onto their very pleasing delusional fantasies of global and cosmic self-importance in the face of their own imminent impotence and insignificance!

      • Arpana says:

        You two pick holes in what Osho says and does, like he was just some character who gets up youre nose in the pub. Your gossiping about him now, Frank, like he was that character.

        • frank says:

          Arps,
          Maybe, but I just find that all that “chosen few” stuff is a carte-blanche for inflated nutters..

          …and another pint of wallop and a packet of pork scratchings please, luv….

          • Arpana says:

            Oh, well played, Sir.

            “Osho set something in motion that neither of you are capable of setting in motion. (Me neither)”

            “You’re like children who have read the Ladybird Book of Art, who can’t paint, criticising Rembrandt.”

            I think a little more circumspection in criticising someone who has done something I/we can’t, wouldn’t go amiss.

          • Arpana says:

            Frank. I find your aplomb, at times, awesome (although I think I’m too old to use that word, but it will do).

            • frank says:

              Arps, you say:
              “You’re like children who have read the Ladybird Book of Art, who can’t paint, criticising Rembrandt.”

              I don`t deny it. But here`s the thing:
              You know that book: ‘The Mind of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh’ that you put up the front cover of a few days ago? I remember that book. I bought it in 1981 for 6 rupees from a bookstall in south India.

              On the first page, Bhagwan retold the story of `The Emperor`s New Clothes` and how the only person in the town streets who voiced that the emperor was naked was a small child.

              I expect that all the others in the crowd were experts in cloth, sewing, haberdashery, tailoring and maybe Rembrandt, too!

              • Arpana says:

                The analogy isn’t working for me, old bean. Circumspection, a little modesty, is the issue.

                Those who can do. Those who can’t, carp at others who do.

              • Arpana says:

                P.S:
                The Emperor isn’t naked and you’re Not innocent or a child.

                • frank says:

                  “The analogy isn’t working for me, old bean.”

                  It must be one for the invisible readers then.

                  So be it.

                • frank says:

                  Lokesh also said, “It surprised me when Osho wrote his doom and gloom chapter.”

                  That`s a good point too. Remember his warnings about “The nightmare nineties”? A catchy title, but, realistically, it was a walk in the park compared to most of the decades in the 20th century.

                  Btw, didn`t some heavy metal band rip off that title for an album?

      • satyadeva says:

        “nowhere else in the whole world are people trying, even in small groups, to achieve enlightenment, to be meditative, to be loving, to be rejoicing.”

        This is just nonsense.

        • shantam prem says:

          Just because you have not experienced something it becomes “nonsense”. This is the way of the ego, that fucking ego all the ladies and gentlemen in the spiritual business wants you to to get rid of.

          It is million times true, Osho is not exaggerating. He has right to be proud of his creation.

          It is another fact it is no more the same, so Lokesh and Satyadeva get the confidence to take pot shots.

          • satyadeva says:

            Absolute nonsense from you, Shantam. It’s a very simple, pretty well self-evident truth that Sannyas around Osho was not by any means the only place where people were working on themselves through the perspective of ‘enlightenment’.

            If you want to drag “ego” into it, then you should realise that, contrary to what you’d no doubt prefer (and apparently ‘need’) to believe, you and sannyasins are not and never have been that unique, that ‘special’.

          • Lokesh says:

            Shantam, your obsession with the ‘ego’ trip passed its sell-by date years ago. In other words, constantly referring to what someone says as having to do with the ego is very old-fashioned. Kind of a throwback to the 70s. Rarely do I meet anyone who speaks like that today. Most intelligent people have moved on from there. You are stuck with it.

            Whether you accept it or not, everything you say about other people’s egos could be said about yours. Arps is fond of firing back people’s comments at SN commentators with the person’s name changed to the author’s. He does this because he sees the obvious. The person’s comment directed at others is often a reflection of themselves. Such is life.

            You have somehow managed to create an image of yourself whereby you actually believe you are standing up for Osho. It is complete nonsense. You never even got so far as talking to him on a personal level, and yet you imagine you knew him well enough to take on a role as his defender. This is pure fantasy and only possible because Osho is not around to whack your thick head in a probably futile attempt to knock some sense into it.

            While alive, Osho was an expert at standing up for himself and what he felt was true and he would not have enlisted your help because you are not a martial arts expert.

        • Lokesh says:

          SD, of course it is nonsense. Pointing that out has nothing to do with picking holes in what Osho says or does, as Arps suggests. It is calling a spade a spade.

          One on one, Osho was a force to be reckoned with. One of a kind. That does not mean he didn’t speak a load of shite from time to time. He also came away with many great things. It is healthy to acknowledge both and unhealthy to take everything Osho said as God’s honest truth, because it wasn’t.

          For example, one can easily imagine that had sannyasins stood up en masse against the shit Sheela came away with, history might have changed…and yes, I know hindsight is cheap. Instead, sannyasins did not want to get in trouble by standing up for what they knew was right and surrendered to something that went horribly wrong and even helped to create it.

          As the old song runs…we won’t be fooled again…but if we listen to history we probably will be.

  3. Parmartha says:

    Many of us here live pretty protected lives. I think writing now in 2016 the world is in a kind of hell, and something could go even more wrong in the next few years if the Islamists get nuclear weapons and engulf even those of us who live these protected lives.

    Millions are voiceless, we do not really hear the cry of well over 50 per cent of the Syrian population, or the Libyan.

    I don’t see how a relatively small number of people working on themselves and becoming enlightened can affect this. It’s a kind of wish-fulfilment thing.

    But it is a good response to ‘the world’ as it is now to work on oneself and experience some kind of final freedom.

    • Arpana says:

      Jung said words to the effect that anyone who reduces the size of their shadow is contributing, in a however tiny way, to the reduction of the mass shadow.

      Think stalactites and stalagmites.

      • satyadeva says:

        Not my ideas but they ring true for me:

        Any genuine spiritual attainment or effort that bears at least some fruit necessarily contributes to human (and therefore cosmic) evolution, as any wisdom thus realised (ie made real) remains in the human psyche as a resource from which current and future generations may draw.

        If so, then presumably, the more people real-ise the truth of life, at more than merely mundane levels, the greater the potential for others to somehow benefit – and the greater the chances of avoiding a mass wipe-out of the human race?

        However, I’m informed that whatever nuclear and/or biochemical holocaust might befall us, humanity will definitely survive, somehow, somewhere – albeit in a profoundly altered way, with a consciousness that will want nothing to do with the sort of insanity (eg conventional religions and power-madness) that caused the destruction.

        • Arpana says:

          I wonder if part of the appeal of the ‘spiritual’ life, in meditation, martial arts, yoga, painting, the arts, is that we are tuning into something that has endured for aeons at the most, for thousands of years at the least. There is some kind of security in that?

          Maybe we need causes, certainly wondered that about myself, and even more now I’ve written that.

          Top of my head stuff. Thinking out loud.

      • Parmartha says:

        Thanks for the Jung quote, worth thinking about.

        In what context did he say it?

        • Arpana says:

          Hell’s bells.

          I can’t believe I actually found the very quote:

          “If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all his projections, then you get an individual who is conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong, and they must be fought against… Such a man knows that whatever is wrong in the world is in himself, and if he only learns to deal with his own shadow he has done something real for the world. He has succeeded in shouldering at least an infinitesimal part of the gigantic, unsolved social problems of our day.”

          ‘Psychology and Religion’ (1938). In CW 11: ‘Psychology and Religion: West and East’, P.140

          I find, found that so inspiring.

          http://jungcurrents.com/quotations-shadow

  4. samarpan says:

    “Sannyas around Osho was not by any means the only place where people were working on themselves through the perspective of ‘enlightenment’” (Satyadeva).

    In a world of billions of people Osho’s Buddhafield of 5,000 could be considered a “small group” but compared to anywhere else on the planet in the 1980s it was probably the largest “small group”, incorporating equal amounts of Zorba and Buddha, rejoicing in celebration combined with “working on themselves”.

    What other place on the planet had thousands of people so dedicated to celebration and meditation in one geographical space in the 1980s? What other place, with a group of any size, addressed both Zorba and Buddha?

    • satyadeva says:

      You may well be right about numbers, Samarpan, although I suggest the old adages, ‘Size isn’t everything’ and ‘Quality, not Quantity’ are well worth bearing in mind here.

      The point I made is that Osho was simply mistaken – deliberately or otherwise – to tell his people they were the only people working for spiritual growth and therefore the only hope to save humanity from self-destruction.

      As Frank has mentioned, such a statement, readily accepted as a belief in such a relatively enclosed ‘hothouse’ of a community, easily tends to give rise to all sorts of self-important delusions and judgments of other groups and ‘paths’ that might well even have the opposite effect to the one originally intended.

      Unfortunately, many sannyasins have always tended to think they’re ‘special’, and such a pronouncement only adds to that somewhat unsavoury, false self-perception.

      • Lokesh says:

        Yeah, in Spain when you say someone is ‘special’ it means you think they are a bit loco.

      • swamishanti says:

        A lot of these modern spiritual groups think that they are special, and that their ‘master’ is the most important, and common is the idea that their ‘master’ or group is responsible for saving the world from Armageddon.

        And often the masters think that they are overly important too.

        It wasn’t only Osho that talked about a coming destruction of the planet.

        Sai Baba made similar predictions, and stated at one point that the US would be almost completely destroyed, whilst Russia would survive. And Haidakan Babbaji, who appeared in a cave on Mt. Kailash in the 70s, told his people that the world would be almost completely destroyed after a “great revolution”, by 2000.

        I can’t remember the exact details, but Haidakan Babbaji later said that the destruction had been averted by the intense spiritual work that was going on around the planet.

        Some of the Hari Krishnas think that they are responsible, as a group, for saving the world from destruction by chanting so many maha-mantras all day. Well, they would do, wouldn’t they?

        Adi da Samraj, well, what to say? He thought that he was the most important master, the most enlightened, and the ‘World Teacher’. He thought that the whole world would recognise him as the ‘World Teacher’ by 2000.

        Yet where is his teaching today? I can’t really see how he’s influenced the world at all.
        Most people don’t even know who he is.

        And then that sannyasin, Maitreya Ishwara, convinced that destruction was imminent, big planetary changes were coming. well, he may have been right about that, but I remember one of his ideas was that most of the more ‘unconcious’ people would be quickly wiped out, as the planetary vibration increased, and they would die in “love in bliss” and then be quickly purified in Bardo The more concious minority, the older souls, would be left to create Heaven on Earth.

        Could he have been reading the Jehovah’s Witness magazines at some point, by any chance?

    • Parmartha says:

      Samarpan’s view here seems to have some sense.

      I never really got used to some of Osho’s devices, I remember a few times on the Ranch that it was put out that Osho was getting ready to leave his body cos he was fed up with us. This one in the string leader seems a different but in some ways similar device.

      I remain sceptical that some few thousand souls waking up can turn the tide of apocalyse. As for the world still being here, well, it is just a stroke of luck. I think we have been close to a third world war a couple of times. Of course, if it ever happened, none of us would be here to prove or disprove it!

  5. Lokesh says:

    “I remember a few times on the Ranch that it was put out that Osho was getting ready to leave his body cos he was fed up with us.”

    That is not a device. It is called emotional blackmail. It was also ridiculous. Osho was already pulling that one in Poona 1. We, well most of us, went for it and took it all very seriously. So much for non-seriousness.

    SS says, “Talking about impending apocalypse or world destruction may be helpful in engendering a sense of one’s impermanence.”

    You just need to look in a mirror to experience that. Basically, doom and gloom is a negative attitude. Frustration across the nation, the news is always bad. Why? Because it feeds negative emotions. Any TV executive knows that.

    • shantam prem says:

      When emotional blackmail looks like device it means Religion is being created. It is not easier for sannyasins to accept the fact they are following the nameless Religion created by Rajneesh Jain aka Osho.

      • Arpana says:

        When Shantam babbles drivel it looks like the rubbish it is. It is not easy for Shantam to accept the fact that he is following the nameless Religion created by himself about himself.

        MOD: OK, LET’S NOT GET INTO ANOTHER SLANGING MATCH, PLEASE, GENTS!

      • swamishanti says:

        I remember talking to an Indian friend about Osho.
        A few days later I met him again and he told me he told me he had started reading an Osho book for the first time. The book was in Hindi, my friend was laughing at the title: ‘I teach Death’. The English version of the book has a different title.

        Today I found a video of Osho`s brother speaking about this book:
        https://youtu.be/1Y_HUWZ68d4

    • swamishanti says:

      “I remember a few times on the Ranch that it was put out that Osho was getting ready to leave his body cos he was fed up with us.”

      “That is not a device. It is called emotional blackmail. It was also ridiculous. Osho was already pulling that one in Poona 1. We, well most of us, went for it and took it all very seriously. So much for non-seriousness.”

      What was Osho trying to do with it then?

      Push sannyasins to meditate and get enlightened as quickly as possible, to keep the Master in his body?

      Or just behaving like a spoilt brat?

      Lokesh chirps: “SS says, “Talking about impending apocalypse or world destruction may be helpful in engendering a sense of one’s impermanence.”

      You just need to look in a mirror to experience that. Basically, doom and gloom is a negative attitude. Frustration across the nation, the news is always bad. Why? Because it feeds negative emotions. Any TV executive knows that.”

      Sure, TV relies on sensationalism and focuses on the power struggles and violence that are taking place all over the world. But I don`t really find the news that negative. More just a reflection of the present world consciousness.

      After all, this violence is happening on a very core level, in nature, on a daily basis. Animals hunt and are hunted. Every day is a matter of life and death.

      The question is, did Osho feel that there would be a shift in global consciousness, a “quantam leap”, as predicted by Babbaji, Sai Baba, Meera, and many New Agers, or was he genuinely worried that we would be destroyed if we didn’t` meditate enough?

      “We have come to the point or we are coming to it, approaching it every
      day….very soon man will have to choose either total destruction or a
      revolution – a revolution not political, not social, but a revolution of
      the heart. A turning-point is coming closer every day; you have to be
      prepared for it.

      Sannyas has to become a herald for a new world, the first ray of the dawn.

      Man is reaching towards total war; all preparations are there to commit a global suicide. This is what your history has brought you to.

      All the Alexanders and all the Napoleons and all the Stalins and all the Hitlers and
      all the Maos have been working for centuries and centuries; now their dream
      is going to be fulfilled: We can destroy this whole Earth within seconds.
      Destruction has reached its peak; unless creativity also reaches to its
      peak, man cannot be saved.

      Hence I am not interested in Christians, I am interested only in Christs.
      I am not interested in Jainas, I am interested only in Mahaviras. I am not
      interested in Buddhists, I am interested only in Buddhas. My effort here is
      not to create a following, not to create believers – but to create individuals, lovers, MEDITATORS WHO CAN STAND ON THEIR OWN; and each one can
      become a light. And we will need…

      The night is going to become darker and darker every day…WE WILL NEED
      MILLIONS OF LIGHTS AROUND THE WORLD, millions of people who are capable of
      love, unconditionally, without asking anything in return, and who are so
      silent and who are so blissful that wherever they are, they will be able to
      dissipate darkness.” (Osho)

      “The change of the present, which is full of turmoil, will be brought about by bloody revolution. Peace will return only after the revolution reaches its zenith.

      In the aftermath of the revolution-which will be total; no country will be spared, big or small – some countries will be totally erased, leaving no sign of their existence.

      In some, 3% to 5% and up to maximum of 25% of the population will be spared and will survive.

      Earthquakes, floods, accidents, collisions and wars will bring about the destruction.

      Babaji again cautions us to be alert. A great revolution is coming. It is not of the ordinary type. Between heaven and earth this type of revolution has never been seen before. It win be astonishing and terrible.

      The destruction will be such that people will die as they work, sleep or stand. People will be killed by gas; buildings will remain but the danger is to humanity. Babaji reminds us to be prepared.” (Babbaji)

  6. Lokesh says:

    “Be prepared”? Was Babbaji in the Boy Scouts?

    SS confesses, “I don`t really find the news that negative.”
    Ehm…well…er…neither do most people. They think all that shit the news channels broadcast is normal.

    SS quotes Osho: “The night is going to become darker and darker every day…WE WILL NEED
    MILLIONS OF LIGHTS AROUND THE WORLD, millions of people who are capable of love, unconditionally, without asking anything in return.”

    We already have millions of people doing that. They are called good parents.

    Unconditional love is a contradiction in itself, because to say love must be unconditional requires a condition.

    The Ohso quote concludes with the following: “In some, 3% to 5% and up to maximum of 25% of the population will be spared and will survive.”

    Which just goes to show that Osho was human, just like the rest of us…he had his off days too. This is Osho at his worst. As I said in an earlier comment, I was surprised when Osho entered his doom and gloom chapter. And I have a great vid to go with it. Check it out, man, because it just goes to show you don’t get what you paid for.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DWiB7ZuLvI

    • Arpana says:

      ” “MILLIONS OF LIGHTS AROUND THE WORLD, millions of people who are capable of love, unconditionally, without asking anything in return.”

      We already have millions of people doing that. They are called good parents.” ”

      I have often thought that.
      Good stuff.

      • Tan says:

        Arps, McLoke and SS, don’t forget Osho was talking for a very young crowd. Maybe he wished young people enlightened because when we are young we can take risks and we could do something about anything! Now we are a very old crowd, unenlightened, boring and reminiscing the gold past, isn’t it? How sad is that?

        We failed in a certain way…I wish I could have tried harder, we had everything, all the tools. If only I had believed in all the ‘apocalyptic’ crap and had tried harder…Now with arthritis, back pain, etc…things got more difficult. Cheers!

        • Arpana says:

          Good reminder, Tan.

          Easy to forget he was talking to mostly youngsters.

          Arthritis. Back pain. Not you as well, Tan. Flippin’ ‘eck. :D

        • swamishanti says:

          Presuming we don’t destroy ourselves, I’m sure we will one day end up with a more conscious society, where instead of Eastenders we get to watch Buddhas on tv.

          Programmes on tv will slowly begin taking about enlightenment as a concept and then slowly, slowly, Barry Long and others will start appearing as a regular feature. People will begin to realise what ‘enlightenment’ may be, and may not be.

          Osho clearly believed that “millions of buddhas” would be the only hope for this world. But when I thought about it, isn’t real enlightenment really meant to mean the end of “the world” for you, and won’t it make you disappear and dissolve back into the cosmos?

          So no more lives for those buddhas.

          • frank says:

            Btw,
            When did the idea of “enlightenment” get mixed up with “evolution”?

            I think I am right in saying that the Hindu/Buddhist procession through all the life-forms to eventual liberation was a question of the individual`s journey through all of existence rather than existence itself progressing as implied in evolution.

            I have a vague memory that Osho himself credited this idea of “spiritual evolution” to Khalil Gibran – maybe someone more archive-oriented knows the talk/quote?

            The idea of the world evolving spiritually en masse (Enlightenment + Evolution) is a blend of the East`s most defining myth with the West`s most defining myth.

            It`s no surprise that it has caught on.

            • Lokesh says:

              Yup, and maybe the world is perfect as it is right now. All this dreaming about some future Utopia, where we can watch Buddha on TV is bullshit. You can already do that and the world is still spinning round. If you ask me, all those fools projecting their dreams on the future screen are no different from those twats who think if they get a new Tesla car they will be happy.

            • swamishanti says:

              I think Buddhists just talk about all life as being ‘suffering’. Enlightenment is the way out for them. Not sure if they believe in any ‘evolutionary’ factors.

              Whereas Hindus started believing in perpetual cycles of less consciouss, and then more conscious ages. It was all a leela, a play, and the ‘Great Controller’ just set it all up and then knocks it all down again, just for the hell of it.

              • Arpana says:

                I became aware, in the middle of 1987, that I had seen Enlightenment as a way out, as an escape route, at the same time as I realised I no longer was in that space, was no longer looking for an escape route, a way out.

                • Tan says:

                  Arps and McLoke, what I mean by enlightenment is the blissfulness I felt in Osho’s presence. I deal with that!

                  McLoke, would be fun to sit down with you, more fun than with Mooji! XX

                • Arpana says:

                  McTan,
                  Many of my most perfect, ‘enlightened’, at peace moments have followed dynamic sessions. I did a kundalini and dynamic back-to-back once, and couldn’t speak for more than a day.

                • Tan says:

                  Thanks, Arps, for the clue. And I repeat, what I felt in his presence, it was enough to know what bliss and happiness is all about. XXX

        • Lokesh says:

          Tan speaks negatively about herself by saying, “Now we are a very old crowd, unenlightened, boring and reminiscing the gold past.” Personally, I can’t and won’t relate to such a murky vision.

          Tan concludes, “If only I had believed in all the ‘apocalyptic’ crap and had tried harder.” Tan, not for the first time, I find myself asking how it is possible to be so blind, having been exposed to a radical teacher like Osho. Perhaps the answer lies in my response to Shantam at 8.33. The reason I say this is because you are labouring under a misconception, which is encapsulated very well in your sentence, “If only I had believed in all the ‘apocalyptic’ crap and had tried harder.”

          If you think it is “crap” why bother believing in it? Belief and doubt are two aspects of the same coin. Surely you must have heard Osho say that. His point is that there is a third way that includes the opposites. I am sure it would be amusing to sit down with you and get right down to who or what it is that you think needs to try harder and to what end.

    • swamishanti says:

      “In some, 3% to 5% and up to maximum of 25% of the population will be spared and will survive.”

      Actually, that bit was from the Babbaji quote. I didn`t make that very clear in the other post.

  7. shantam prem says:

    Osho was human, just like the rest of us…he had his off days too. This is Osho at his worst…

    I love this outspoken Lokesh. I hope he will agree the Punja ji too was a human like rest of us, who played his destiny for a while to be Papaji for the spiritual orphans from the West.

    I think it is time to broaden the definition of Ashrams. Commune was added before. ‘Orphanage for the adults’ can be another definition.

    • Lokesh says:

      Shantam, I have said it before. I spent seven years with Osho and spoke to him perhaps 80 times. I spent six or seven weeks with Poonjaji and spoke to him three or four times, never once feeling like an orphan from the West. Do your arithmetic, because it appears you have a bug up your arse about the possibility that there are other people who have something worthwhile to impart on a spiritual level besides Osho.

      Osho and Poojaji were unique individuals. I saw no need for comparison. If comparisons arose, so what? I once listened to Osho berate a close friend for putting his partner up on a pedestal, and how she could not live up to the expectations my friend was imposing on her.

      Osho was right. Many put Osho up there and he did not live up to their expectations either, because he made mistakes. I find that endearing because it shows his humanity. Osho often appeared not of this world so it is good to remember he was fallible.

      Poonjaji was very human. He liked to chew pan and watch a cricket match on TV. I dug that about him.

      • Arpana says:

        “Nityam, I am not the Pope of the Vatican – I am not infallible. I enjoy fallibility. And Buddha was not infallible and Jesus as not infallible. Only these stupid popes, they started claiming to be infallible, because they wanted to dominate, they wanted to exploit people. I have no desire to dominate anybody, I have no desire to exploit anybody. I have no desire at all.

        Fallibility is natural; infallibility is unnatural. Even God has committed so many errors! The first error he committed was to create the universe; that was the beginning of the whole mess. But he did it and he continues to do it; he has not stopped. He created the Devil; if anybody is responsible for the Devil’s existence, then God is responsible – he created him. He created all kinds of sins in you, all kinds of instincts in you. If anybody is responsible, if anybody is punishable, then God is.

        Osho
        ‘The Dhammapada: The Way of the Buddha’, Vol. 8
        Chapter #11
        Chapter title: ‘The Psychology of Egolessness’

  8. shantam prem says:

    Lokesh spoke with Osho (Bhagwan Shree of that time) around 80 times. Very big score compared to me who has not spoken a single time. Maybe I was 250-300 times in the discourses at the most.

    How many times Sheela, Neelam, Nirvano, Amrito, Jayesh must have spoken with Osho? Maybe thousands of times. Does it make difference? Somehow it shatters the Indian myth, being with true master is a culmination of many lives’ good karmas.

    Now the question comes for hundreds of thousands of people who will ‘feel’ Osho only through his books, audios and videos. Sometimes I laugh at this scary thought, another life and again I come across books of late Shri Osho Ji or even some living guru of that time!

    • Lokesh says:

      I do not find it important how much time anyone spent with a guru. Some people only need a few words or a look from a master and their life changes for the better. Others read master’s books, go to satsangs, darshans, watch videos etc. for their whole lives and remain the same stupid people they have always been.

      My point is that it is the seekers’ intention, the earnestness of their enquiry, that lends the possibility of positive change in their life. Without that whole-hearted drive the seeker is on a treadmill.

      Shantam says, “I laugh at this scary thought, another life and again I come across books of late Shri Osho Ji or even some living guru of that time!”

      That “another life” is this life. You can laugh all you want, but ultimately the joke is on you. You have come across Osho in this life. The question is, what are you going to do with it? Continue to seek changes on the outside, or listen to the man’s good advice and seek change in your own inner world, the only change that is really worthwhile?

      • shantam prem says:

        And Mr. Lokesh, you have this notion you have brought changes in your inner world and poor Shantam is still focused on the outer. This is one of the shitty mind-set of so-called inner drivers that they judge the health of other person through their own pulse beats.

        I won´t take someone´s self-pride away but let us say, Shantam has dug 200 metres more than Lokesh and Sheela has dig 500 metres more than Amrito; the thought itself is laughable.

        Is there some objective parameter or just personal perception to judge one´s or others’ inner journey and growth?

  9. Lokesh says:

    Shantam enquires, “Is there some objective parameter or just personal perception to judge one´s or others’ inner journey and growth?”

    I would say that there are quite a few indicators that can judge if one is developing one’s inner life. A few examples:
    You laugh more.
    Take much pleasure in the simple things in life.
    Live quietly and peacefully.
    Attract intelligent people as friends.
    Love animals.
    Enjoy walks in Nature.
    See that violence is never the right answer.
    Learn to let go of what was not meant for you in the first place.
    Take pleasure from the company of those wiser than oneself.
    The list goes on….

  10. prem martyn says:

    Hello, Dearest Chosen Few,

    By my ready reckoner, ’twas those here on Sinnersnews of whom Big O spoke, as any fewer would have been more akin to Enid Blyton: ‘The Famous Five Save Humanity’. Funny that Big O never mentioned Enid as his inspiration…

    Of course, writing here from Mcloud Garbage where tons of practising shaven-heads are busy saving the world by a combination of open sewers and spinning prayer wheels – it is I, your roving, raving reporter who is honoured to wander in between growthful groups which even now are sponsoring those radicalisms that Osho empowered others with.

    Oh yes, were it not for his insistence that we ought to dress up like the Ku Klux Klan at 7 PM whilst revering the pre-prepared versions of deferential human life (bloke on video + hushed quiet + laughing at crap jokes + acknowledging the implicit validity of anyone who considers that quoting Osho actually constitutes a conversation between two people…oh yes – truly, along with blokes running around broadcasting that red blankets and poor drainage and a folkloristic myth mania about themselves constitutes a monopoly on salvation.

    Were it not for the above, many of us would be doomed to a life of singing ‘Crazy Love’ by that other bald-head, Van Morrison, and thanking Existence that after two thousand years of a mix of wars, Christianity, revolutionary humanism and industrial auto-immolation, we at least got some decent songs and dance music to sing along to. Unfortunately, after even 5000 years all Indian music and love songs can do is turn audiences into infantile, pre-pubescent teens.

    Osho was born in India but he had a universal message. If you accept that in all probability you cannot actually choose to be born, at least make sure that if you do it’s not on a planet as deeply fucked as this one.

    Love from Dumpshala.

    • shantam prem says:

      This post from Dharamshala is quite something.

      I think Martyn is in Macdoandganj to scratch the image of Pope the Dalai of Buddhist world. If there is a Buddhafield energy it is here in Europe, specially in the sauna rooms. Dharamshala (The Abode of Religion), Pune (The Sacred Place), Rishikesh( Hairs of Seers) are hypes and myths of Incredible India!

  11. prem martyn says:

    Shantam,
    When faced with religion of all types, including the cult of inward-aspiring, bludgeoning Oshoism, one ought to remember the last words of General Custer: “Don’t panic, men, it’s just Sitting Bull.”