The Chateau de Prieure des Basses Loges was a medieval hospital, and later monk’s priory which patrons of Gurdjieff bought him to create a commune in 1923 near Paris. Oddly enough the largest financial patron of Gurdjieff in the interwar period was Lady Rothermore who met him through Ouspensky, perhaps explaining why he could manage such a purchase. (There is an essay somewhere for someone about how the very rich have supported teachers through history. For example Osho and Greek Mukta who was the daughter of a Greek shipping magnate).
Some writers have compared Gurdjieff’s twenties commune with Osho’s experiment in Rajneeshpuram. Especially it’s emphasis on non intellectual work, which in their interpretation explains why Osho choose not to speak between 1981 and 1984. Some even claim that Osho modelled the Ranch on the Priory.
One major dissimilarity however has been missed. Gurdjieff was both the spiritual AND administrative head of the work there. No delegation to anyone like Sheela and her associates was made for the later. Hence the work at the Prieure was curtailed not by the collapse, crimes and paranoia of the administrators, but by choice, and followed Gurdjieff’s major road accident 2 years into the work. The commune there continued for a while, but it is clear that Gurdjieff withdrew from that work after the accident, and decided to write his mainly incomprehensible ‘magnus opus’ “Belzebubb tales to his Grandson”, from there on in.
However the “taking on of the intellect” does seem to be a major similarity. Those intellectuals drawn to Gurdjieffs work were not dissimilar to those drawn to Osho’s in their responses. Ouspensky lasted a very short time, returned to London and taught in the name of Gurdjieff. However he was denounced by Gurdjieff, as not being ready to be a teacher. A parallel would be Teertha and Somendra in Osho’s work.
There were of course intellectuals of a different mien – like the Englishman A..R. Orage whose grave is in a remote Hampstead churchyard.
He was a leading UK intellectual figure of the day. One day in 1923 on hearing he was leaving his job as Editor of the then famous literary magazine “The New Age”, his Secretary asked, “where and why are you going”. He answered “I am going to the Prieure to find God”
Gurdjieff set Orage’s surrender to the test immediately, and got him digging holes all day and filling them in. Within a few days he was crying at the end of the day, but ignored. But he continued. After 10 days, close to giving up, he made one more exhausting effort. That day something “happened” according to Orage’s self report, and to his surprise Gurdjieff was there immediately in person. This has been described as Orage “connecting” to his body for the first time since he was a child.
Orage was taken off the digging detail immediately and became one of Gurdjieff’s most diligent emissaries for some years. . However his discipleship also ended in a way reminiscent of some Osho disciples – he left his Master for a young woman and lived within the protection of a domestic round for the larger part of his later life…. Of course if gender were reversed it could have been for an older man – or a younger!
From SN Notes
SN, what is “SN Notes”?
There is a little of what we call ‘think-tank’ in it, Kavita, I guess, initiated by a beloved friend who is gone for quite a while, and those who have been with him did let that grow. (Sometimes notes are taken, for sure).
We are all part of it, and yet a beautiful and may surely be sometimes not so beautiful work, to give it sort of frame and ´address´, recycling topics, etc., AND taking notes, stays with those who make the effort to print a topic or to decide when is the time to print: ´Enough for today, or enough for these days…´ Or just do it…
As for the topics, ever again asking (obviously intrinsically) attention for a repetition in ever slightly different forms (the Gurdijeff theme, for example) – it needs to be that way.
I enjoyed to have this Sunday´s topic on the screen, and even more really enjoyed how Lokesh responded to it (10.49 am).
I would even go so far to say that comparisons are NOT highly debatable. But it is happening, so what to do? Appreciate it. All of it. The notes, the re-digestion, the responses, the honouring some past, and last, and not at all least, coming into the present moment.
Have a beautiful Sunday, you all.
Madhu
Thank you, Madhu, for shedding your light too!
This made me think of the biblical expression, “Many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:14). Everything to do with Gurdjieff is interesting. Really helpful for getting some perspective on Sannyas.
Arps says, “Everything to do with Gurdjieff is interesting.”
Yes, I agree. He was a fascinating man. I recently was given an old book, full of personal accounts, about various people’s impressions of Gurdjieff. In the end, Ouspensky somehow became disenchanted with Mr G. What I appreciate about Mr O was that he did not stoop to slagging Mr G off. His life just went in a different direction and he took what he learned from Mr G with him, which is how I think it should be. Of course, it does not always work out like that. Ouspensky was an exceptionally intelligent man.
“Some even claim that Osho modelled the Ranch on the Priory”
Has Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, the founder of that place, ever told Rajneeshpuram is modelled on the Priory, or his commune in Pune is an extension of Buddhist way of life, plus meeting of hearts and genitals?
I find that there existed little in common between the Prieure and Rajneeshpuram. Also, the parallels drawn between disciples like Teertha leaving and denouncing Osho afterwards I find have little in common with what happened with Gurdjieff. Ouspensky, for instance, left Gurdjieff because he felt Gurdjieff’s teaching to be incomplete. I can relate to that in regards Osho also.
For example, Osho’s main emphasis was on witnessing. Very good, up to a point. The point in question being that as long as you are aware of witnessing you still have not got it. The Beedie Wallah picks up from where Osho left off on that particular topic. Osho was catering to the needs of a lot of people, and did a great job of getting that crowd lifted into a new, more intelligent perspective. I reckon a more personal contact with a master is required to bring the disciple right to the truth. Perhaps that happened with a few of Osho’s people. I really cannot say for sure. Gurdjieff had a more intimate contact with his students because he was not having to deal with thousands of people.
There was no scandal concerning the locals where Mr G set up his scene. Mr G made a point of cultivating good social relations with the local populace wherever he went, although on a more personal level he was definitely known as a rogue. Osho, on the other hand, delighted in stirring up the shit with the locals. Perhaps because of the notion that any publicity is good publicity, which, as it happened, did not turn out to be true.
SN says, “Ouspensky lasted a very short time”. True in one way, false in another. Ouspensky had been travelling with Mr G for some years before he left. Those were intense years in Russia, with, amongst other things, a country in the midst of civil war. They had to move on a few times because the social climate was extremely dangerous, not because of The Work but because murder was high on the social agenda. I think this probably intensified everything in their lives, including The Work.
SN says, “Some writers have compared Gurdjieff’s 20s commune with Osho’s experiment in Rajneeshpuram. Especially it’s emphasis on non-intellectual work, which in their interpretation explains why Osho chose not to speak between 1981 and 1984. Some even claim that Osho modelled the Ranch on the Priory.”
Pure speculation that is highly debatable. It could be the case that Osho had simply had enough of the whole carry-on and just wanted to kick back and indulge in watching movies. He watched ‘Patton’ dozens of times, the reason for which will forever remain a mystery. The rest of what Osho was getting up to behind the scenes has been covered extensively. Mr G also enjoyed a bit of saying yes to another excess. In his case, cigars and good cognac being his wee treats, the difference being Mr G did not make a secret out of it, in fact he often invited people to get drunk with him.
Gurdjieff had a major, perhaps the most major influence on Osho’s vision, but I disagree that his communes were modelled on Mr G’s to any great extent. Both men were unique and left their unique stamp on everything they did, for better or for worse. They were incomparable and so were their communes.
Such a fluid language, as if words are united by the mysterious thread. Lokesh in his best elements.
Given your extensive experience of both situations it would be hard not to acknowledge this piece as the definitive and last word on the subject, especially as Shantam has given it his seal of approval.
Yes, Arps, Shantam’s seal of approval is really something. Excuse me, I have to run and tell my neighbours about it.
Well played, Sir.
Smiles….
This comparing and judging of Osho, Gurdjieff, the Beedie Wallah, etc. reminds me of Chogyam Trungpa’s book, ‘Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism’ in which Chogyam Trungpa says: “The problem is that ego can convert anything to its own use, even spirituality.”
Like Osho, Chogyam Trungpa said you must allow yourself to trust yourself, to trust in your own intelligence, to simply let ourselves be. Going to places like The Prieure, or Rajneeshpuram, to ‘get’ something is spiritual greed.
“As long as you are aware of witnessing you still have not got it. The Beedie Wallah picks up from where Osho left off on that particular topic.” (Lokesh).
“You still have not got” what? What did the Beedie Wallah get? How do you know the Beedie Wallah ‘got it’?
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2010/08/21/us/21beliefs.html?referer=&_r=0
It’s a mobile link. If the link doesn’t work, just google chogyam trungpa sex scandal
Tantrick sex master? Mmmm ohhhhh ommmmm yeaaaaaassssss dalai lammmmmmmaaaaaaaaa.
http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/trungpa.html
Ahhh, blessings…upon bald-headed blessings….
Lokesh, sorry for barging in, couldn’t resist this one!
“You still have not got” what? What did the Beedie Wallah get? How do you know the Beedie Wallah ‘got it’?”
Samarpan, the same way you claim to know Osho & Chogyam Trungpa!
‘Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism’ is an old favourite. The chapter on the loka realms, is a masterpiece.
Sammy enquires, ” “You still have not got” what? What did the Beedie Wallah get? How do you know the Beedie Wallah ‘got it’?”
Suggested reading…’I Am That’. Will not do you much good unless you begin to practise what you read.
Well, Osho, Georgie G and Chogyam Drunkpa did have something in common. They all liked getting off their faces!
Drunkpa died at the tender age of 48 after spending the last 18 months of his life in an alcohol-related coma.
I don`t know about cutting thru spiritual materialism but he certainly got thru his liver pretty fast.
George G`s extreme drinking habits are well documented – he managed to allday drink Armagnac etc. and still `pretend to be drunk` to his disciples.
Btw, Ouspensky pretty much drank himself to death too. He was a big fan of nitrous and plenty of other gear in his younger days and even now, not many people realise that ‘Tertium Organum’ and ‘New Model of the Universe’ is seminal spi-fi stoner lit.
Osho`s mental dental thing has been extensively covered on SN.
And Alan Watts, that other John the Baptist to Osho`s Jesus. was also well away on the booze after years of puffin’ an’ trippin’ by the time he shuffled off his mortal.
I wanted to be like them. I thought that I could blast my way to enlightenment with a well-stocked bar and an endless stash, but I had to pack it in when I ended up in rehab! Just a lightweight in spiritual matters, I guess.
So I hope you don`t think it`s just sour grapes when, in between my daily attempts to find out who the ‘I’ is that knows that ‘I’ don`t exist, I set off wondering:
Can anyone explain why these geezers that we all love very much were so absolutely whacked off their heads right up to their Paranirvana day?
And as you ask, yes, I have got what the Beedi Wallah got – a very bad cough.
“Well, Osho, Georgie G and Chogyam Drunkpa did have something in common.”
✌With you as well, Francis. ☜☝
Thank you for sharing, Frank. All of it.
I wish you well, if you allow me to do that.
Madhu
Yup, beedie wallah liked to hack his way through three packs a day.
“Ouspensky, for instance, left G because he felt G’s teaching to be incomplete. I can relate to that in regards Osho also.”
McLoke, Osho did that on purpose, didn’t he? I can’t say about G (screw him, by the way), but Osho I can. If a man like Osho left out something I trust that there is a reason, maybe we have to complete it on our own?
Nice point, TanTanchickyboomboomboom.
He also said that everything is always incomplete:
BELOVED OSHO,
IN THIS PHASE OF YOUR WORK, ARE YOU GIVING THE FINAL TOUCH TO THE PAINTING OF YOUR WHOLE LIFE, FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE NEW HUMAN BEING?
My work is not like a painter’s work.
It is not that I can complete the painting; it is one long painting. And I will be giving touches to the painting
even when I am breathing my last — still, the painting will be incomplete.
In life, only mad people ask for perfection. The perfectionist is another name for someone who is getting
ready to become mad.
I was a guest in a maharaja’s palace, and the maharaja was showing me around — it was a beautiful palace. At a certain place he stopped and he said, “Do you see?” There was a wall, incomplete.
I said, “Why have you left it incomplete?”
He said, “The palace was made by my grandfather, and this is the tradition in our family that nothing
should be made perfect. Some imperfection should be left so that the coming generation remembers that life does not allow perfection.”
Imperfection is not something bad. Imperfection is the root of all growth; perfection can only be death.
Once something is perfect it is dead.
The painting that I have started will remain imperfect — although I will go on trying to make it perfect,
but it is the very nature of existence that it cannot be perfect.
And it is not my painting.
Those who are with me… it is as much their painting too. When I am gone, you have to continue to paint it. The painting has to go on growing new flowers, new foliage. Don’t let it be dead at any point. In other words, don’t let it become perfect. Make every effort to make it perfect, but don’t let it become perfect. Then there is tremendous beauty, and always flowing and growing, and there comes no full-stop.
Osho, Beyond Enlightenment
Chapter #21
Chapter title: The watermelon and the knife.
He also, as always, contradicts that remark, so there you go.
Thanks, Arps. Really beautiful, your post! I have never seen his incompleteness that way, maybe because I am not an artist like you. XXX
Tan enquires, “Osho did that on purpose, didn’t he?”
Possibly, never really given it that much thought. I reckon Arps pulled up the right quote in regards that.
Language is very limited, especially when it comes to the inner world. Of course, there is nothing to be got ultimately because there is nobody to get. Nonetheless, I have been in a situation with a guru where I reacted against the notion of not getting it, only to find, some weeks later, that I eventually got it, much to my surprise.
In the end, you either get it or you don’t. Such is the contradictory nature of existence.
“Of course there is nothing to be got ultimately because there is nobody to get.” (Lokesh).
Exactly! Now apply that to this statement:
“Will not do you much good unless you begin to practise what you read.” (Lokesh)
Sammy, you simply just don’t get it. Maybe you are not supposed to. Perhaps you are. Who knows? Not I.
Is it possible, Lokesh, that you are kind of obsessed (in this UK SN chat) to divide contributors into those
who ´get it´ and those who ´don´t get it´?
Madhu
Madhu,
Enlightenment is like the clap.
You`ve either got it or you haven`t.
I`ve got it.
So has Lokesh.
Enjoy….
Yeah, like the sound of one hand slapping.
Lokie, we are born with “it” so there is no “getting it.” Our true nature is Sat Chit Ananda.
Chogyam Trungpa’s ‘Spiritual Materialism’ appeared in 1973, and I read it before I heard Osho’s calling in 1976, before I fell in love with Osho. Falling in love…there was nothing to do…nothing to “get”…enough just being in Love.
Just relaxing in Osho’s presence, just dancing with his energy, just enjoying the buddhafield…nothing to desire, nothing to grasp, nothing to hoard…just simply being in love. As always…As then…As now…Ah, this!
Deary me, that kind of talk hits me like a snooze pill. Well and good back in the day, now it sounds like a leaky auld bagpipe, dripping nostalgia for the auld folks. Lines from the cinema classic, ‘Out of Poona’.
Lols…
When one has nothing else to hold, one holds the memories.
Falling in love with Osho!
Fishes will fall in love with the bait when instead of usual flour balls, fisherman hangs chocolate balls. This childish idea of unconditional love for someone is a snowball idea.
Osho was creating the infrastructure of just relaxing in Buddhafield. Does the Disneyland get created by just oratory?
When others were offering Milka from the discounter, Shree Rajneesh Bhagwan, aka Osho, was offering Premium brands.
Samarpan and McLoke:
Please, enlighten me. You said “there is nothing to be got ultimately because there is nobody to get.”
In my case, my world is my body and mind, so I am somebody…and I am sure there is plenty to get…my inner world belongs to my body & mind, that of course belongs to Existence, like everybody else! So, could you elaborate a wee more?
Tan, I leave that sort of thing to the professionals.
Fair enough!
Tan,
Don`t worry about it…
It`s boy`s stuff…a spiritual variation of the old locker room favourite game of “my dick`s bigger than your dick.” In this version, you get your ego out,slap it on the table and the guy with the smallest ego wins…and a guy with no ego takes all…
They are very good at in in India, but it’s always been quite popular in the West, too….
Frank speaks with all the veracity of a Master of pub quizzes you know, Tan, so these sutras are not to be ignored.
Here’s Frank giving satsang in the snug of the Pig and Whistle in Peckham…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq4LKHvZ0j
With a statement like, “In my case, my world is my body and mind, so I am somebody…”, I just would not know where to begin. That is work.
Perhaps you should visit Mooji…I am sure Shantam might be able to help…or how about Madhu? Frank will only complicate matters and try and sell you a third-hand version of Ego Trip, the new bored game by the makers who brought you Snakes and Ladders and the world famous guessing game Who Am I?,
Or…ehm…how about…….as long as the window is open there will be sunlight, even on a cloudy day?…or, errr….
Frank boy, I remember Osho said that ” if a monkey ( animal one) meditate at least 1hour a day, he will be enlightened in 10 years. I am with Osho for about 30 years and nothing…
Talking about monkeys, did you see them flying, before going to rehab?
Yes, we love the drunkards, just the intelligent ones. XXX
Arps, LOL. X
Lokesh, don´t be so rough on Tan. She is just trying to open up a bit as an writer. I think her post at 10.49 am is the longest till now.
So Tan, don´t feel discouraged by the macho male attitude of superior writing. If you are following American Presidential elections, learn something from Marco Rubio!
Shantam, it’s not a case of being rough on Tan. I was being honest. It is not my job to educate people. Tan obviously is at a learning stage about some fundamentals. If she is really earnest with such enquiries then I suggest she ask a professional about such matters. Meaning, ask a person who has set themselves up to answer such enquiries. I am not cut out to fulfil the role…well, at least online.
If I could sit down with her it would be a simple matter to illustrate the false notion that being somebody is dependent on your mind and body. You can observe both and that means they are not who you think you are. I am sure you know what I mean.
Thanks, Shantam, for your kindness, but I still am going to kick your balls!
McLoke, I “get it”, you don’t answer my silly, stupid question because you don’t know. Simple as that! And if you decide to answer, please be straightforward, don’t give me crap, like any Osho quotes, or talking esoteric shit…
Anyway, appreciate your attention! Cheers!
Tan, I wonder where you get the idea that I might deliver an Osho quote…extremely rare. I am not one to deliver Osho quotes, I speak for myself. Perhaps you mixed me up with someone else.
Here is something for you to contemplate. The reason there exists so much violence and aggression in the world is because people are identified with the notion that there is an individual self to protect. If people realized there is no such individual self, that it is a magic show, an illusion, all violence and aggression would cease.
Perhaps this falls under your label of esoteric shit. I do not know. There is no need to know. I am easy about that.
Lokesh, thank you for this unique light!
Kavita and Shantam produced a chuckle, while taking a break from chopping wood…my favorite meditation technique – gets the anger out when needed and keeps you fit as the proverbial fiddle. Oh yeah, and it feeds the fire on the long Ibizan nights.
“I reckon a more personal contact with a master is required to bring the disciple right to the truth. Perhaps that happened with a few of Osho’s people. I really cannot say for sure.” (Lokesh).
In a way, in the beginning of master-disciple relation, emphasis was on the personal contact. Master was not supposed to be the mass-produced sim card of Vodafone transmitting Orange rays…
My personal guess is, Osho is the last superstar master who can be promoted on the basis of his videos to the West. Future masters will be in the category of Hinayana (small boats) and not Mahayana kind of cruise ships.
When I think about communes around Osho, thought goes towards Titanic!
U Vill Vitness – und zat is ein Order!! Aum Schnell!
Now tell us vot yu see and vot yu haff vitnessed or your friends vill get zere heads geshavenededen.
Sieg Gachami!
…
Many times I wonder whether Parmartha will ever dare to put the blame of Rajneeshpuram´s debacle on anybody else than the usual culprits, Sheela and gang.
Between white and black there are no grey zones for religious believers.
Between white and black there are no grey zones for religious zealot Shantam.
SP, more evidence as to what one often suspects, that you don’t read replies to posts, etc.
I think we were all to blame, including Osho.
“I think we were all to blame, including Osho.”
I think this is the most courageous statement ever made by any disciple of any master.
No wonder, we are the product of 20th century shaping the future of religion and spirituality in 21st century. The above statement needs collaborative discussion.
”Can anyone explain why these geezers that we all love very much were so absolutely whacked off their heads right up to their Paranirvana day?”
Probably those whacked off their heads geezers have to pass over/on the whacking that they received!