Vivek’s death at 40, and how was it untimely?

Ma Prem Nirvano:  next week is the anniversary of her death,  some 26 years ago,  which some consider untimely, and others not.  Below Shantam explores his thoughts on the subject.

Osho with Vivek

images

The death and cremation of Nirvano seemed to me to be the most secret operation of the late 20th century.
That is intriguing,  because the spiritual master with whom Nirvano had spend her adult life,  was an expert in digging out and advertising every secret of the life story of the founders of many religions, and the lives of the mystics from the corners of history.

I do wonder sometimes whether Osho was even aware that Nirvano had died.

I was in Pune during those days around Nirvano,  and then Osho’s death, a few weeks later. In my memory there is a glimpse of Nirvano and Jayesh near the stairs of Krishna House,  where Jayesh had his room and office. It was a few days before her death,  and as I remember the glimpse it was happy and romantic.  I think it was common knowledge at the time that these two were together.

Osho’s health was termed at the time as very delicate, and he was said to be sick most of the time.  Osho had mentioned in earlier public discourses about his daily life,  that he was sleeping most of the time,  and only became awake when his body was amongst his people.

Nirvano died suddenly on 9th December, 1989.  Within a few hours of her death, and in the middle of the night,  a few people came to cremate her.  In between her death and the cremation all the formalities were completed.  Two days later Osho entered Buddha Hall for his birthday celebration, the last birthday in his body.

Now can someone really imagine Osho saying, ” Oh my God, this is going to ruin my reputation and the whole sannyas movement if the world comes to know about her death – simply cremate her as soon as possible,  and take care the press dont get inquisitive about it.” ?

On innumerable occasions, Osho had taken a dig about the Hindu deity Rama who exiled his wife Sita because of public opinion. Osho had termed such people cruel and heartless; is it not an irony that he would order his closest companion to be cremated in a clandestine way. Nirvano, the British lady,  was not just a life long companion and caretaker but in Osho’s own words, his past life love too.

After later seeing the working style of Chairman Jayesh and his deputy, my feeling is: these two gentlemen have hidden the full facts around Nirvano’s death, and did not even ask  Osho’s opinion as to what to do with her body and celebration.

Also,  it is a common sense, when someone is extremely sick doctors don’t break tragic news before such a person,  to avoid sudden shock which can lead to their own coma and death. My feeling is very clear, that to avoid any kind of questions from Osho, Vivek’s lover acted unilaterally.  I do know from a few friends, Nirvano died as the wife of one Jaspal Singh. No need to say, it was a sham marriage for the purpose of a hassle free stay around Osho, and her lover Jayesh.

Surprisingly perhaps, a few years later,  Jayesh  installed a stone (below)  on one of the ashram buildings in her memory.   How then does he define  untimely?

Nirvano

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134 Responses to Vivek’s death at 40, and how was it untimely?

  1. Tan says:

    Shantam, stop stalking Vivek! Respect, please! What are you doing? You are sick!

    @ moderators: How could you allow this? If it was a post celebrating all the beautiful moments that happened with Vivek (Nirvano) and Osho, brilliant! But this? Shame on you!

  2. samarpan says:

    I heard that Osho laughed. It was not an untimely death. She left just in time to prepare the way for Osho, who was soon to follow. Where could she go, if this is leela, and death is a fiction?

    • satyadeva says:

      Well, Samarpan, he didn’t laugh when he announced it, did he? In fact, he looked solemn, grave. And if it wasn’t “untimely”, how come he used that very word?!

      Moreover, do you actually know what you’re talking about here, from your own experience, or is it just ideas and concepts you’ve borrowed?

      What do you mean, for example, when you say Vivek “left just in time to prepare the way for Osho, who was soon to follow”? Sounds like sentimental claptrap, a ‘comfortable’ belief, but one lacking any authority.

  3. Parmartha says:

    SD:
    I don’t know whether that was Osho’s word, or as Shantam says, Jayesh’s. Either way, I would say, like you, her death was “untimely”. She was quite young and in good physical health. One has no reason to doubt Shantam’s observation a few days before her death of her being in love and looking like she was.

    She suffered what are called today mental health problems. I know this because at some point after 1985 she was in London staying in the flat of a friend of mine in Primrose Hill, and seeking treatment for that.

    If Shantam is to be believed, this plaque he has put on his article is still there in the Pune ashram?? Maybe someone knows?

    Shantam draws attention to the middle of the night scenario at the burning ghats, which is also my intelligence on this matter. Many would have celebrated her death, however it happened; she was an utterly loyal caretaker to Osho for many, many years, and deserved a good sannyasin send-off.

    • satyadeva says:

      As I suggested when replying to Samarpan today, I recall (or think I recall) a video where Osho rather gravely states that Vivek’s death was “untimely”. Perhaps someone can confirm or deny such evidence exists?

      • shantam prem says:

        Till that time, Osho has stopped giving discourses. During the final phase, Osho was coming to Buddha hall to be part of few minutes meditation with His people. Soft music, silence, music, silence, music, silence and then three drum beats and Osho leaving the podium in Namaste.

        Few times some instructions and suggestions were delivered through Amrito. The crescendo was two or three days before His breathing the last. Amrito has said something like, “Osho has felt silence in Buddha Hall was crystal clear. One could touch it. He feels happy to see his people getting mature.”

        Without any sentimentality involved, when I heard this message I was least surprised but very surprised. During that silence an observation was passing through me: “Buddha Hall was never so silent, as if no one was there.”

        MOD: DO YOU MEAN not the least surprised, IE not surprised at all?

  4. shantam prem says:

    When all the usual commentators have written and others too, I will be able to write disclaimer. Faceless people like Tan can abuse me as stalker till then.

    I must say, it is with heavy heart and some kind of burden on consciousness one writes such a piece. When it is the first choice of everybody to be face, head, heart, feet and hands of an organism, someone has to get the destiny to be an asshole.

    Fortunately, plastic dolls are luckier!

    • Tan says:

      Shantam, I didn’t abuse you, not yet. The day we’ll meet, I will kick your fat ass in the name of the western women, and I will kick your ball in the name of the lovely Nirvano. Sod off!

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      It’s the very way you mix your ongoing personal crusade here, Shantam Prem, with – for me – quite a shocking incident (the dying of late Nirvano), which I feel as disgusting and repelling as Tan.

      I remember Lokesh on some other historical UK spot here, mentioning the stress and inconveniences Nirvano might have had to suffer in the midst of the hornets’ nest of greediness, power plays, jealousies and intrigues happening in the very inner circles around the Master, let alone her personal challenges to be the most close to Him:

      as a disciple and a lover.

      She did share that, and the Master did speak about that too…as time went by…
      So also her very lifetime must have been hell sometimes.

      So – even if you wouldn´t have had any mental or psychological health problems before, I truly guess you could get into such by just not being able to cope with such a challenge.

      I met Vivek, later Nirvano, only once – decades ago – very close and face-to-face, and that was lovely and quite ordinary. A solitary beautiful being.

      I remember feeling sick when I read ages ago this long telefax (1989) on our noticeboard in Munich Tao Meditation place, just some very few weeks before my booked flight to Pune; and I felt sick about the tone in which that was written: somehow very cold, I felt.

      Felt gripped by a fear beyond any understanding but didn´t cancel my flight.

      And I remember too that in the year before I took many more jobs to make another few months in the Ashram possible, and I remember having been in wonder about my emotional state, not be be as thrilled as other times I could recall.

      In the weeks in Pune to follow, after arrival, I got quite often heartful hugs from so many old friends, saying to me: “Aaah, you made it just in time; how lucky you are!”

      Whereas I constantly answered: “It has been NEVER a question of being close in a geographical or physical way, never.”

      I don´t know if some of you here, whom I don´t know intimately, will be ‘content’ with such a response.

      Love your straightforwardness, Tan. I have to let it come my way, though.

      And (not only this topic/issue) still touches many wounds and scars. And what Tan is requesting here, her way, I would like to subscribe.

      Madhu

      P.S:
      Who you ‘think´ you are, Shantam Prem?

      • shantam prem says:

        Who you ‘think´ you are, Shantam Prem?”

        This answer I have written just hours ago in my previous post. Madhu, many of you can take pride to be head and heart of Sannyas. Few are blessed to be cheek and face, twinkling eyes and sharp nose. Few are taking pride to be dancing fingers and those wonderful Tantra organs.

        I say to all of these people, enjoy your superiority. In the scheme of things, Shantam is anus. And for sure, I take humble pride to say, I did not let master´s creation fail.

        If Madhu and Tan like Ma´s and Swami´s have little sense of retrospection, they will remember, Osho himself created His own birthday celebration formalities/structure/ritual/celebration.

        Madhu, can you tell me a single sentence where Osho says something like this: “Beloved Friends, it was beautiful to have you here during my birthday. May I take the chance to remind you, don´t continue such things once I am gone.”

        Give stress to your memory and then be honest to tell, “Head and heart have mixed their shit into the master´s work or it is the poor anus.”

      • Tan says:

        Thanks, Madhu. You really understand my point. Love you for that, and it is true, Lokesh always gave the respect Vivek always deserved, which made me appreciate his sensitivity! Cheers!

  5. Kavita says:

    Well, Swami Shantam Prem, just to let you know, I had heard in 1995 from a reliable (I am aware of the relativity of what that means) source that Osho was totally aware of Ma Yoga Vivek/Prem Nirvano’s death.

    He had called Ma Yoga Neelam to his room & had already told her about it much before the news reached the Commune. And probably it’s only after this incident Osho announced that any death due to unnatural circumstances would not be celebrated.

    • shantam prem says:

      Kavita, from 1995 till 2015, not just 20 years have passed but almost a Yuga. Find out the telephone of Neelam through her Nisraga center website, dial her and get to know her side of story. I can assure you to talk with her is easy.

      What you have written seems to be more a rumour, less a fact.

      • Kavita says:

        Look, Swami Shantam Prem, you find it out if you don’t trust that, she is as accessible to me as to you.

        • Kavita says:

          P.S:
          Just a reminder: Why don’t you talk directly to the persons concerned about your complaints & doubts? And stop forcing your doubts onto me.

          Probably you think that just like in the recent past, because Parmartha asked me to find out something , let me tell you I did it only because that was for fun; the matter you are digging is not of that nature.

          And please, Swami Shantam Prem, let’s be strangers once again like a Yuga back. At least that’s what is more practical for me. Thank you.

          • shantam prem says:

            Personally, I have no love, no hate, no friendship, no enmity relation with anyone on this site or anyone in not so neo-Sannyas.

            I will be happy if no one addresses their posts to Shantam, and those who do, take the responsibility of their words by giving them identity.

            Impersonally, I write about the theme. I feel like historian and participant disciple.

            • satyadeva says:

              “Impersonally, I write about the theme. I feel like historian and participant disciple.”

              On all past evidence, this statement, like so many of yours, is sheer self-delusion. The truth is rather that you write more like a tabloid newspaper journalist, motivated to ‘sensate’ the readers (and, in your case, to wallow in self-important self-gratification).

              Your problem is the state of your own life, not who runs the ashram/resort or how they do it (and certainly nothing whatever to do with how or why Nirvano/Vivek died 26 years ago).

              Because you confuse the two, very few of your ‘political’ pronouncements are valid, suffused as they are with personal unhappiness and the lack of clarity that such a condition engenders. That’s why much of the time you come across as an unintelligent fool.

            • Kavita says:

              ”Personally, I have no love, no hate, no friendship, no enmity relation with anyone on this site or anyone in not so neo-Sannyas.”

              Do you think I/others are here on SN to find a date?

              Anyway, Mr Historian, first of all get your facts right. Of course, not your fault – historians are sometimes known to be distortians!

              • shantam prem says:

                So one can say, I am not on this portal to find friends or acquaintances also.

                Any fact which is not stated factually and truthfully is regretted and will be corrected immediately if someone points about that. For example, if I write Dr. Amrit Lal Jain while referring to Osho´s personal physician and someone points out the falsity in name, I will correct with a note of thank you.

                After all, I am writing about the life and times of spiritual master Osho and His people, and not Michael Jackson, his physician and his fans!

                • satyadeva says:

                  Trouble is, Shantam, you’ve been careless and apparently lazy re such matters so often over the years that your credibility as a genuine, unbiased ‘researcher/historian’ is rather low.

                  Such poor habits are probably due to your having a pre-existing personal agenda, which, as I said earlier today, acts as a smokescreen, both for the truth and to hide from yourself the real causes of your discontent.

                • Kavita says:

                  ”Any fact which is not stated factually and truthfully is regretted and will be corrected immediately if someone points about that. For example, if I write Dr. Amrit Lal Jain while referring to Osho´s personal physician and someone points out the falsity in name, I will correct with a note of thank you.”

                  Dear, it’s not only about stating the right name, since you claim to be a historian! It’s ok if one chooses to call the physician Amrit Lal Jain – but also not pushing it on anyone’s face till they are choking, because in self-defence the other may also choke you!

                  It’s just stating your view & moving ahead & giving some space to the other viewers!

            • Kapil says:

              Dear Shantam,

              What a waste of life! On such impersonal matter as Vivek’s death! I wish you had learnt just one thing from Him: “Just be.” I am sure this would have answered all your queries.

  6. prem martyn says:

    Here’s a till receipt from Morrisons from 2008…anyone got any ideas about this sort of thing as it relates to…oh, I dunno…passing the time online… and erm…mystical insight?

    Could be the cue for some extended narrative including the articles that were sold…sort of bedtime story thingy – and erm, unnatural death?

    Oh, and one more thing…
    What flavour Pringles were they? Any views?

    https://www.shopandscan.com/receipts/images/sas_tillreceipt1.bmp

    • Kavita says:

      Some bills are unbilled too. These are unbilled receipts! Like this one.

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        My best wishes, Kavita, that this unfilled receipt you offered here, comes into the right hands of an executive with heart and mind of integrity and with expertise how to deal with it. For example, like somebody with a heritage of a Victorian very good detective (inspector).

        ´Hot chillie stuff´ – that too!

        Have to drink a camomile tea for the stomach and some breathing exercise are needed – and as I said, my best wishes! That this ´message of yours finds the right address. Of somebody capable to deal with it.

        Madhu

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      “What flavour Pringles were they? Any views?”

      HOT CHILLIES, Prem Martyn, very hot chillies.

      • prem martyn says:

        Thank you, girls, Kavita and Madhu, for joining in with the never-ending stories…

        I was doing Osho gibberish and laughter meditation in a Welsh town just the other week. The majority of people there (about 12) had never done anything like that before and yet at the end of the session the room was aglow, very hearty and you could hear a pin drop in the relaxation phase…

        I’m so happy that what Osho left behind was so very accessible for everyone without credo…

        The obvious conclusion from my till receipt is that whoever was going home to eat that lot was going to get very drunk, stuff themselves with a pork pie, console themselves with 3 chocolate bars and then watch a movie, snacking on the Pringles. Alone.

        Therefore using the same powers of deduction it is blatantly obvious that:
        1) Punters here prefer to spend money on the internet looking into the void (Shantam’s brain).
        2) It is similar to the rules of cricket where the players stand around a lot waiting for something to happen or to be expectantly surprised…(patience is everything).
        3) Any innocent visitor is entirely puzzled what the rules of the game are.
        4) Umpires’ decision is final.
        5) The same online game can last for days with lots of off-pitch commentary and utterly useless information being aired.
        6) There are no commercial ads or clothing.

        Frankly, it’s the best way I know of to share the unified state of awareness between consenting adults, and so much more productive than voting for a state of a war-weariness recently made in the UK parliament.

        Luckily, we are not doing this in public in a square in Paris under a banner, as we would then be contravening the State of Emergency which is the logical consequence of going to war in another desert country and which, just by the way, turns voters towards fascist salvationists, like the FN in France have.

        Really, it’s much safer to just stay online and rack up those expenses. It’s a scary world out there.

  7. samarpan says:

    “Whereas I constantly answered: “It has been NEVER a question of being close in a geographical or physical way, never.”

    I likr that response, Madhu. It has ALWAYS been my answer also.

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      As you are referring to that tiny little piece of my response, Samarpan, I would like to add:
      It is one thing to come to know in the heart and by meditative experiences about a truth and quite another to embody that as stable, when staying in the storms of everyday life.

      You know, in former days, I recall, I made friends with an Australian woman, older than me (body-age) and a wise woman visiting the place for the first time, she said. What she shared with me is that in spite of knowing quite a lot and deeply by her work with Australian aborigines about magic ´walkabouts´ and such stuff, she didn´t feel able to cope with the energy field of the Ashram place of those days, she felt herself in in India and would go for a flight back to Australia as soon as possible. I missed her and besides a few letters we have lost contact since then.

      What I want to get more clear here, Samarpan, is that I don t share your kind of statements (5 December, 2015 at 8:30 pm) and that I am quite allergic to such, which, unfortunately nowadays (always?) are uttered aloud.

      And some of them, Lokesh described quite rightly as esoteric ´mumbo jumbo´, and so often are leading totally off-rack (of growing up), or digesting strong shocks and trauma, which can take a lifetime, if not lifetimes, I feel.

      I heard Him say, the worst thing one can lose is trust.

      Another way to put it is that the worst things one can lose are parts of the soul (shamans’ way to put it); or happening to be dissociated (psychologists’ way to put it).

      To be a loving support to each other as brothers and as sisters is an ART and I didn´t want to claim here that I found/find always the right words either. Or that I am finished with my efforts. Or that I would be the ´knowing type´ of Existence.

      Madhu

      P.S:
      You know, Samarpan, what I loved on the female side of the tribe very much? It was the joy, simply being in a celebrating mood, instead of being greedy for ´Enlightement´ – that was pretty convincing…

      The challenges were/are ´invited´ anyway; they just happen. In a never-ending ‘pilgrimage’.

      MOD: 3RD PARAGRAPH, MADHU: she felt herself in in India? PLEASE CLARIFY.

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        Yes, moderators, India, Pune Ashram and her visit in Dec./ 1989/January 1990. She was treated as a kind of VIP and she didn´t like that too (besides other stuff, I mentioned). We met in the more secluded Bamboo zone…by chance….

  8. Parmartha says:

    The main criticism of this piece would still be unstated.

    Shantam is always trying to find sub-agendas to support his main agenda, the fall of the present regime in the Pune Resort, and the establishment of some Sikh empire or similar! If he can, in his own mind, provide dubious proof of some ‘cover up’, and those he seems to implacably hate are somehow involved, then he is right happy.

    Vivek’s death was a blow and shock to all the then communes, and would have been a real shock to Osho himself.

    In the nether world of heroin etc. Nirvano would not have been the first where accidents occur and the word ‘untimely’ would be appropriate.

    • shantam prem says:

      Parmartha, what kind of personal agenda I can have? It was not my personal agenda to whisper in Osho´s ears, “Don´t leave behind a successor but a 21 member team and call it Inner Circle.”

      In my opinion, it is a sacred job of disciples to raise questions than to follow the dictates of Vatican.

      Here is one historical proof enclosed. I have no hands in creating this wording. My question is simple: How come a co-operative movement ends up in the authoritarian grip?

      If people treat Mr. Jayesh as their master´s voice I have no objections. Personally, I have nothing against him and if there is a need to write essay on his great leadership qualities, I can write better than many.

    • swamishanti says:

      What I have heard/read is that her death was related to a drug overdose, and that it was a suicide.

      I can’t remember where I read about the heroin story.
      Who knows what the truth may be?

      • Parmartha says:

        Thanks, Shanti.
        Swami Paritosh in ‘Life of Osho’ says (page 234) that Vivek was found dead in a Bombay hotel room.

        He also says something beautiful:
        Of Osho: “did it all replay in silence (after she died) how he had met her in Bombay that summer so long ago, she a young English girl, shy, with a long nose, and as beautiful as the day?”
        Of her, by explanation: “She gave everything she had, and I think it tore her apart”.

        I wonder whether her family in the UK were (are) still alive when she died, and whether they had anything to say? Anyone know?

        • shantam prem says:

          “Swami Paritosh in ‘Life of Osho’ says (page 234) that Vivek was found dead in a Bombay hotel room.”

          This is an amazing fact to know, Parmartha. It makes the clandestine operation even more intriguing.

          Everybody knows this fact/rumour in the commune/resort that Jayesh has a long- term luxury suite booked in a five-star hotel. Most probably, Nirvano was in Bombay during those fateful days as his girlfriend.

          And then to transfer a dead body from a Bombay hotel room to Pune hospital for post-mortem and then to burning ghat without informing police; it is worth a James Bond kind of 007 operation.

          Few things one cannot imagine in Canada, UK, USA. India was and is the best country for meditation of closing the eyes and looking only inside.

        • swamishanti says:

          Maitreya Ishwara also mentions Vivek’s passing in his ‘Biography of a Buddha’ – an interesting read. Apparently, he was working in the ashram as Osho’s close-up cameraman around this time, and remarks in the book that “after Vivek killed herself I could tell by the way that Osho looked that he wouldn’t be with us for long.”

          He also describes how after Osho leaving the body he felt blessed by a growth in consciousness, something that I have heard other Osho disciples talk about during this time.

          The suicide story was going round in the ashram at the time, but who knows what really happened, perhaps it was a case of accidental overdose, especially if she was mixing barbiturates with alchohol, as in the case of Brian Jones or Jimi Hendrix even?

          So, who knows?

  9. shantam prem says:

    “Whereas I constantly answered: “It has been NEVER a question of being close in a geographical or physical way, never.”

    Is this a revelation of 21st century leading to environmental change?
    Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims and Sikhs are in Oneness with such feeling.
    I bow down to all of them.

    They did not buy and won´t buy Indian gurus’ declarations, “We are alive and they are dead. We are just produced by Existence, they have expired.”

  10. Parmartha says:

    Osho and Vivek at darshan.

  11. Lokesh says:

    Shantam, pride is a keyword in your personal lexicon. It is a mistake to take pride in one’s pride, especially in a spiritual dimension, where pride is viewed as a stumbling block of the ego. You speak about taking “humble” pride in your actions: a contradiction in terms…utter nonsense, like your insensitive article, which reads like something out of Houllo Magazine.

    How can one be humble about one’s ‘pride’, meaning conceit, self-esteem, egotism, vanity, vainglory implying an unduly favourable idea of one’s own achievements, etc?

    Shantam, you are extraordinary in the sense that you take obvious delight in acting and appearing like a buffoon with a personal agenda. It occasionally works, but definitely not in regards your latest article.

    It is not in the least amusing. There is something of the voyeur about it. A reflection perhaps of your whole sannyas trip, in that you do not really seem to have entered into the process very deeply, preferring to play your game from the sidelines. A bit sad if one bothers to consider it. Well, at least in that you are not alone, there are a lot of sad people in the world.

    Shantam recently described his first “darshan” with Osho, when he saw him at the airport, basically a disgraced guru returning to India after a major fuck-up in the West. To describe such an event as darshan requires an imagination composed entirely of knicker elastic.

    It made me think about what darshan meant to me, the intimacy of the meeting, the intensity, the beauty, the reality of a magnificent being giving its undivided attention to a wretch like me, and what a watered-down version Shantam seemed to be so excited about, a trend that began with Osho’s drive-bys:

    It was fun at first…wow! Osho looked at me! Viewed in retrospect it all became a predictable load of bollocks. The cult of personality full-tilt (I was not entirely immune to it myself). In other words, the antithesis of what Osho was all about. The rejection of personality as something completely false.

    I am not too sure about where Osho was really at towards the end. I am sure how he was in the years I spent around and with him, when one was left in no doubt that he was a representative of something wonderful, playful, inspirational and transcendental. That is the mistake that many make around enlightened men and women; they do not realize that the masters still have a personal life. What is different about them is that they are not identified with their personality, knowing it for the mirage that it is.

    Now we have chumps like Shantam, dissecting every detail of Osho’s personal life, to the extent of raking over the ashes of Osho’s 26 years dead, long-term lover and carer, in search of some cover-up or some such conspiratorial shite. Meanwhile, somehow managing to maintain some paper-thin fantasy about himself being a “real” disciple of Osho. Well, fuck me, if it were not so pathetic I could have a good laugh about it.

    • shantam prem says:

      Have you ever seen a mirror, Lokesh?

      I have not seen a single post of yours in the last four years which does not have the stink of Pride. If there is one such, you can copy it.

      It is an utter bullshit from any side to think oneself as Real disciple. Do you think one can get priority being a real disciple in the toilet lines in Hell or a seaside Bungalow in Heaven?

  12. prem martyn says:

    Don’t know if any of you have ever had a ‘Jacques Brel moment’ in your life…but Vivek knew Osho was dying.

    Have you ever told your lover that you couldn’t bear to live without them, that you could not imagine life without them, that you would prefer to die before rather than after them?

    Only in French does it sound perfect, with Brel and Piaf.

    That’s my instinct on why Vivek left (I was with an ashramite at the time, who also knew Osho was dying and that all the public pronouncements on his returning health were baloney).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7zgNye6HTE

    “Ne me quitte pas…”
    “Don’t leave me…”

    *Jacques Brel wrote this in regret that he had obliged his lover to have an abortion for a child that she wanted, she inevitably then left him. He said he wrote it as a reminder and regret of his arrogance and of man’s arrogance to woman, although it is heard and sung solely as a love song – of absence.

  13. shantam prem says:

    “Swami Paritosh in ‘Life of Osho’ says (page 234) that Vivek was found dead in a Bombay hotel room.”
    Parmartha, the line above was the point, I felt it is necessary to talk with someone who was part of the Inner Circle, not just a part but one of the key functionaries at that time, The ashram in-charge, Swami Anand Tathagat.

    People like Lokesh and Satyadeva, the elite, refined ego-bags of Pune 1, may not be aware about this name but in the scheme of things taking place during Osho´s final years, Tathagat was picked up by Osho Himself to be the face of the commune. The rivalry between Tathagat and Jayesh is the main reason for the vertical divide in the Sannyas movement post Osho´s demise.

    (I have already a title for this article, ‘The Game of Supremacy between White Tiger and Brown Elephant: The story of two prominent Osho Disciples, Jayesh and Tathagat’).

    Tathagat is the person-in-chief behind the parallel happenings in India. He with his other Inner Circle colleagues and partner Neelam has created the Nisarga Center in Dharmshala.

    During our talk, Tathagat was in Mysore in some Vipassna meditation camp.
    I told him the reason of my calling that in Sannyasnews I have submitted an article about the death of Nirvano and want to have his opinion about it and also to make few points clear. I hoped he could spare few minutes for this.

    Because of lack of internet access he had not seen this article till now.
    My first question was where Nirvano has died as some old disciple has mentioned in his book, Bombay was the place.

    He said, “It is not true. Nirvano breathed her last in Wadia Hospital in Pune.” He was present in the hospital with few others. After the White Robe evening meeting, he went to Osho and it was Osho´s instructions to take her straight to burning ghat for cremation.

    At this point, I remembered Kavita. I think her sources told her the similar fact in 1995. Most probably, Tathagat must have gone with Neelam to Osho.

    I asked Tathagat had he sensed some foul play in her death, that she took overdose herself or someone forced her or gave her the wrong dose as it happens in many cases?

    His reply was, “Many things became clear during the later years. At that time Osho was present and we were covering each other. Surely because of Nirvano´s death, these people got complete access to Osho. She was a hindrance in their plan.”

    From these people, he mentioned the names Jayesh, Amrito, Shunyo, Anando, Devageet. That these people created a smoke wall around Osho.

    At this time, I told Tathagat, “I won´t mention your name but only as reliable source.”
    He insisted, “No, you write my name.”
    And I asked him, “Is this true that Nirvano and Jayesh were together during those days?”
    Tathgat said, “Yes, more than a year and many times she was staying with him in Oberoi Hotel in Mumbai.”

    Other than this, we were talking about various court cases filed by them against the Resort trustees and general lack of interest of disciples and its psychology.

    This talk I will add in the next article.

    • satyadeva says:

      All speculation and innuendo, Shantam, not a shred of evidence to support what you (and probably, Tathagat) would clearly prefer to be the truth of this case, ie that Jayesh (& co.) murdered Nirvano to further his/their own ambitions.

      It’s a sad enough story without your paranoid, ultimately deeply selfish fantasies.

    • Lokesh says:

      Shantam declares, “This talk I will add in the next article.”

      Gee whizz, I am sure everyone at SN is having a job containing their excitement over this new development. I suspect it has something to do with those evil alien reptiles who have taken over the management of the Pune Resort in order to harvest pituitary glands in a last-ditch effort to save their dying race.

      • shantam prem says:

        I was sure, salt on the wounded ego of Satyadeva and Lokesh will make them jump with their naked knives. Within minutes of my post based on the talks with a reliable person, these two gentlemen have written their hasty comments.

        Matter of the fact is, both of these guys won´t be able to distinguish from photos who is Jayesh and who is Yogi. Who is Neelam and who is Avirbhava. I find it very childish that instead of accepting one´s ignorance, Lokesh tries his best to implant his 1977 into 1990.

        • satyadeva says:

          It’s not particularly important to know who certain individuals are, Shantam, it’s only necessary to know about you and your very personal predilections (very likely shared by your fellow Indian, Tathagata).

          As I said, there is no evidence whatsoever to justify your suspicions and all you’re doing is milking this story in order to further your personal ‘political’ agenda.

          As I said before, you’re no ‘historian’, no unbiased searcher for the truth, you’re too emotionally driven, too disturbed, too enmeshed in your own resentment at your apparent lot for that.

          You’re far more like a tabloid newspaperman, giving a particular slant on ‘news’ for purely self-ish ends.

          To think otherwise is just part of your self-delusion, your self-inoculation against facing up to the reality of your plight and your ultimate responsibility for it.

  14. shantam prem says:

    The conspiracy theories are doing the rounds for more than 26 years. Till 2005 I have ignored them, rejected them. During the early years, I even informed Jayesh´s close colleagues about the idea of press conference by some of the disciples opposed to Jayesh´s style.

    But the way Jayesh sidelined everybody and changed the structure from commune to resort and submitted false will of Osho into the court in Spain, I started doubting his intention. The man is really a master in his game and has no apparent respect for rules of laws and democratic way of living.

    Here it is important to mention that it must be Jayesh´s idea to smuggle Osho out of America towards Canada in that maiden plane journey when Osho was arrested.

    It is not my intention at all to accuse anybody for any crime, but sometimes circumstances make you think about some kind of cover-up; naked ambitions in the world of meditation is not just cheap stunt but betrayal of feelings of those who trusted.

    In the world of Osho it is even more tragic, because Osho developed his spiritual enterprise by poking needles into the skeletons of each and every historical figure and their followers.
    As a disciple and human being of 21st century, I feel it is important to use the same yardsticks for everyone.

    Again I say as disclaimer, I have zero per cent intention to put the needle of blame on anyone yet I think it is justified if British press takes this issue and investigates the mysterious circumstances leading to the sudden death of one of their fellow citizens just 26 years ago.

    I think cover-ups and hiding the skeletons in the cupboard are not closures and one should not be afraid to pass through the lie detectors of Karma.

    • satyadeva says:

      “Again I say as disclaimer, I have zero per cent intention to put the needle of blame on anyone yet I think it is justified if British press takes this issue and investigates the mysterious circumstances leading to the sudden death of one of their fellow citizens just 26 years ago.

      I think cover-ups and hiding the skeletons in the cupboard are not closures and one should not be afraid to pass through the lie detectors of Karma.”

      Sheer, unadulterated bullshine. Lying to yourself as usual, Shantam. How can you be so blind to your own blatantly obvious motives?

  15. Kavita says:

    Shantam, in any case I didn’t say Vivek/Nirvano was in Bombay & I had mentioned “He had called Ma Yoga Neelam to his room & had already told her about it much before the news reached the Commune.” As you said, “Also, it is a common sense, when someone is extremely sick doctors don’t break tragic news before such a person, to avoid sudden shock which can lead to their own coma and death.”

    Anyway, it’s your doubt and no one can be of any help, Swami Shantam Prem!

  16. samarpan says:

    “What I want to get more clear here, Samarpan, is that I don t share your kind of statements (5 December, 2015 at 8:30 pm) and that I am quite allergic to such, which, unfortunately nowadays (always?) are uttered aloud.” –Madhu

    Thank you, Madhu, for your clarity. We do not need to share the same kind of statements. We are all beautifully unique flowers of Osho.

    • satyadeva says:

      I gather from your silence that presumably, a “unique flower of Osho” doesn’t need to defend any statement of his that appears like sentimental nonsense? (See my response (12.08pm, Dec 6) to your post re Vivek’s death (8.30pm, Dec.5).

      • samarpan says:

        You assume correctly, Satyadeva.

        “If the whole world starts laughing and enjoying and playing, there will be a great revolution. War is created by serious people; murder is committed by serious people; suicide is committed by serious people – madhouses are full of serious people. Just watch what harm seriousness has been doing to human beings and you will jump out of your seriousness, and you will allow your child, which is waiting within you, to play and to sing and to dance.

        My whole religion consists of playfulness.

        This existence is our home: these trees and stars are our brothers and sisters; these oceans and rivers and mountains are our friends. In this immensely friendly universe you are sitting like a stone buddha – I don’t preach the stone buddha; I want you to be a dancing buddha.”

        Osho, ‘The Rebellious Spirit’ (ch. 17)

        • swamishanti says:

          I can easily imagine Osho laughing when he heard the news, after all it was he who once described himself as laughing out loud at a cremation party , whilst everyone else was trying to be as sober and serious as possible.

        • satyadeva says:

          Ah, yes, the Great ‘Non-Seriousness’ Smokescreen! As I suspected, rather than acknowledge you don’t actually know what you’re talking about, you take refuge behind a lengthy Osho quote, which is irrelevant to the issue, a ploy used so often by sannyasins in similar circumstances.

          Vivek’s death ‘preparing the way’ for Osho’s? Why would you imagine he – or indeed anyone – might have needed such ‘preparation’?

          I’ve generally given you the benefit of the doubt up to now, but this latest instance has me wondering whether you’re another deluded air-head.

          • samarpan says:

            I could tell you my own joke:
            These three guys walk into a bar…but…wait…why did they walk into the bar? Are they preparing the way for someone else by entering the bar? Why would they think preparation is necessary? Is entering the bar rational behaviour? Did they walk into the bar on their own authority or are they leaning upon one another? Did anyone need to prepare the way for them entering the bar? Or is entering the bar a ploy? I am beginning to think those three guys are deluded airheads. Case closed! No joke.

            • satyadeva says:

              Clever-dick bollox doesn’t close any case, Samarpan.

              By confidently declaring that Vivek ‘prepared the way’ for Osho to follow her into death (whatever that might be – do you know?) you simply concocted something that sounds ‘comfortable’ for you. Didn’t you?

              That’s why I say it’s a load of sentimental claptrap and that you sound like a rather complacent air-head.

              • samarpan says:

                Let me amend my first post:

                I heard that Osho laughed. I heard it was not an untimely death. I heard she left just in time to prepare the way for Osho, who was soon to follow. I heard that comment as a joke and laughed. I heard this is leela. I heard that everyone will die. I heard that death is a fiction.

                All my so-called knowledge is borrowed. I am not confident about any of it. I heard that the case is closed! But I’m pretty sure you will tell me otherwise!

                • satyadeva says:

                  Almost closed, but not quite…

                  You say, “I heard it was not an untimely death.” From whom?

                  And, would you agree that the moral of this episode is surely, ‘Beware of believing everything you hear – and of passing off borrowed knowledge as your own’?!

                • samarpan says:

                  The person who made the joke (it was a joke!) is still alive and I will not say who it was.

                  I do not agree the “episode” has a moral.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Well, complacency and self-satisfaction is always resistant to learning, I suppose.

                  But surely a couple of ‘lessons’ (ok, sannyasins tend to run for cover at hearing the word ‘moral’) might be not to pass off others’ comments as one’s own and/or to make it clear when a “joke” is being made.

                • samarpan says:

                  A couple of lessons for you:
                  1) “I heard” imputes authorship to another.
                  2) When something seems non-empirical, consider whether what is said might be a metaphor…or a joke…without it being labelled as such.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Samarpan, you originally wrote:

                  “I heard that Osho laughed. It was not an untimely death. She left just in time to prepare the way for Osho, who was soon to follow. Where could she go, if this is leela, and death is a fiction?”

                  While “I heard that Osho laughed” “imputes authorship to another”, the rest of your statement has no such implication, suggesting that these are your sentiments alone. Which itself tends to lend a similar connotation to the first sentence.

                  So rather than inviting the reader to play a ‘guessing game’, to “consider whether what is said might be a metaphor…or a joke…without it being labelled as such”, why not simply be clear, unambiguous from the start, eg by saying:
                  ‘I heard that Osho laughed, that it was not an untimely death, as she had left just in time to prepare the way for Osho, who was to follow, and so where could she go, if this is leela, and death is a fiction?’

                  Here endeth this morning’s lesson.

                  But in any case, what exactly is your own view? Do you regard the statement as a “joke”? Or are you attempting to make it into one? Are you suggesting it’s a metaphor? If so, for what? Or do you rather like the whole idea of it, sort of wanting it to be true?

                  Clarity, Samarpan, let there be clarity!

    • Kapil says:

      Thanks, Samarpan, Kavita and Madhu for keeping the Osho-fragrance alive amid this stinking mud-slinging. Lokesh and Shantam are birds of same feather. They go on holding mirror to each other, pulling faces at other, totally oblivious of who they are.

      • Kavita says:

        Kapil, can you please tell a little about yourself & your journey here to Sannyasnews?

        • Kapil says:

          Hi Kavita,

          I bumped into the Sannyasnews while browsing some stuff on Vivek. And I was taken aback to see the hot discussion going on on her. चैन से सो रहा था ओड़े कफ़न मज़ार पर/ यहाँ भी सताने आ गए किसने पता बता दिया? (I was cozily sleeping in my grave, wrapped in the coffin/the tormentors have come here too! How did they find out this place?).

          It reminded me how my own journey with Beloved began. A professor of mine, His junior at Sagar University, had referred to Him several times, and I was simply charmed to hear about Him. Then I bought a book and read it. Just reading it, something was stirred inside. I used to be a hardcore religionist. Yet His words penetrated the thick conditioning. The whole mind melted away for a moment and I, as it were, woke up. Out of a deep sleep. Indeed, there was some pre-birth bonding with Beloved.

          As the journey continued, the flowers of love and meditation began to blossom all around. There were tough times too. Dark nights! When everything seemed lost. But He was there, ALWAYS! It needed real courage to live Him. The courage too came from Him only.

          In the course, I came across Sheela and Shiva episodes too. Felt fortunate I did not read about them before meeting Him. Otherwise they would have brainwashed my rational mind into a nasty doubter and arguer. And I would have rejected Him without even experiencing Him.

          I was a bit concerned for those who would see Him through Sheela and Shiva lenses. And of course these lenses are ‘authentic’ because they were closely associated with Him. I had the similar feeling for SN also.

          Gradually, something began to dawn upon me: everybody would meet Him the way Existence plans.

          Just a few days ago, while listening to Him, I was dissolved in a tearful harmony with Him. The intense love for my beloved absorbed me so totally that I could clearly see the distance from my body. And as He has always said that the body thus will become vulnerable to diseases. So I am contracting some of them.

          Then for the first time it was revealed what a master does for the disciple. He remains in His body to stay in the world for our sake. I took 15 years to feel His grace, His overwhelming love. And lo! There is debate on democracy and autocracy when the Old Man is just asking to “keep quiet when I am working on your soul.”

          Though I can never thank Him enough, one way to thank Him is to pour every single particle of my energy into knowing the Deathless. Through this mail, I want to remind those who care to know more about themselves than the world His words: “Time is short. Drop everything that concerns others.”

          P.S:
          I must thank SN for staging this cock-fighting. It makes me marvel at His patience. With so much compassion did He deal with all this clamorous crowing!

          • Kavita says:

            Thank you for responding/sharing, Kapil. I forgot to mention, if it’s ok with you to share here. Anyway, seems it was ok. Hope you found what you were browsing for?!

            “Time is short. Drop everything that concerns others.” – Sir, does this also apply to you too?

            • Kapil says:

              ““Time is short. Drop everything that concerns others.” – Sir, does this also apply to you too?”

              This is the only thing that matters to me now.

              Further, Kavita, I was wondering if you met Him in person. I missed out on it. I was just ten when He left the body.

              If you have spent some time with Him, could you share how it feels being near Him?

          • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

            “Gradually, something began to dawn upon me: everybody would meet Him the way Existence plans.”

            And thank you so much for appearing with this, Kapil; and won´t quote other lines of your response – worth repeating.

            If Existence “plans”, I don´t know. Yet these gorgeous spacious spaciousless moments, when any arguing in inner and outer chatter stops. In a Peace Train. For the time being…

            Loving what IS, not in an Himalayan cave, but in the midst of all our inter-connectedness.

            We are, I feel, all of us, asked to develop that compassion you spoke about in your P.S. – nobody will spare us from this effort, to go into developing in ourselves the compassion which we may have experienced with the Master in what rightly is called a ´GREAT AFFAIR´, melting into the miracle of a Meeting altogether in this lifetime. In the body.

            So much cannot be spoken.

            However, it´s wonderful to give it a try.

            With love,

            Madhu

            • Kapil says:

              Beloved has taught Existence is paradoxical. So he makes planless plan such like your “gorgeous spacious spaciousless moments.”

              True, Madhu; what can be said of the bliss flowing from Him always?! By the way, I was wondering if you met Him in person. I missed out on it. I was just ten when He left the body. If you have spent some time with Him, could you share how it feels being near Him? I shared my longing to hear about Him with Kavita also.

              • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                “Him” didn´t make “planless plans” as you said.

                Bliss – coming and going more like a breeze – not to be caught hold of! (Otherwise – when not learning to practise this you surely at the same time ´booked your ticket for hell’, ‘normal’ yo-yo bungee jumps from peaks to valleys; that’s how the grasping mind works).

                It’s also your grasping mind that wants to know if I have been sitting in His Presence. YES, I did. But nothing I could say (and your question shows that) that YOU could get out of that.

                Your practising to be ´a watcher on the hill`,
                YOUR tears, when you come to an understanding of the Silence in His words (as you told us the other day),
                YOUR laughter, when you come to understand a joke He made.
                And it’s YOUR unique way to the Silence, ever-present.

                You will become acquainted with it, its gems and gifts for you and you only. A refuge too. And it is very good to look for a place and fellow-travellers to practise to listen to the Silence and to Existence and to bow down to an Enlightened one, if that – by grace – is happening.

                No plan can be made about it, also no planless plan.

                Very much I loved when He said: “Don´t push the river.” In fact, you are IN IT (the river) already, Kapil. And it’s good to look for places and spaces which support your acknowledging that Truth. And letting that BE your best company (companion). And that will happen too quite naturally.

                Madhu

                P.S:
                ZEN, I heard, is a Beginner´s mind; ALWAYS.

                • Kapil says:

                  How beautifully you write, Madhu! Just like honey! And it is so deep, so subtle, so graceful! Being a student and teacher of language, I simply love it. Your words and silence are equally absorbing.

                  Going back on the mundane plane, may I know where you belong to? Geographically!

      • Kavita says:

        Kapil, welcome to SN. Seems it’s your first time writing-in here? & is it possible for you to tell what exactly is “Osho-fragrance”?

        I am wondering if questioning could also be “Osho-fragrance” to you?

  17. Lokesh says:

    SD does a good job of putting the disciple and human being of 21st century on the hot seat. Interesting to observe how Shantam reacts by trying to add more gravity, seriousness and self-importance to his comments, rather than relenting in his pointless crusade.

    Thick-skinned as he is, Shantam obviously is breaking out in a sweat in his own personal version of Wounded Knee…make that Wounded Ego, as he blusters about hasty comments, something, going by the above, that he most definitely is guilty of himself.

  18. shantam prem says:

    During the night, I was feeling how innocent and non-corrupted Indian mind is in comparison with the West. No wonder, no one goes to West for learning religion, spirituality and finer points of human consciousness.

    What Osho was doing basically?
    Bringing the essence of Indian heritage on the plate for the westerns. How much the West has got is obvious the way they have tried to plant tomatoes in the style of potatoes.

    The conversation with Tathagat left the feel that these Indians who were controlling the life in Pune were fully dedicated, not just to Osho but to the western guests. If there was any resentment and anger they could have used many opportunities to frame in police cases all the people who are now in power.

    One does not need much to do for this. A small hint to the press and case is taken over by the media and public opinion starts working against the “foreigners”. This way Rajneeshpuram too was brought to its knees.

    As far as I know, till today, Indian Sannyas seniors have not hit under the belt. The cases pending in the courts are the most civilized way to stop further eradication of Osho´s work by not allowing to become one family´s domain.

    Here at Sannyasnews, which is dominated by the western mind, one can see the response. How collective piles are bleeding. Most of them are ganging together to protect one of their own.

    If some Indian had dared to spoil their master´s work I am sure western sannyasins would have gone to the international human rights court.

    To me, Satyadeva and Lokesh are the symbols of Blair/Bush puppy puppy game. Thanks God, I am not from Iraq but India.

    Indians knows instinctively how cheap human ego becomes when provoked. Yet grace lies not to knock out the others.

    • satyadeva says:

      Rather a good example of corruption is attempting to ‘frame’ someone for a serious crime, in this case murder, without any convincing evidence other than hearsay heated-up by personal preference and cooked by a lurid imagination, both generated by chronic unhappiness for which the individual concerned takes no responsibility. While all the time claiming to be acting purely in the interests of dispassionate, unbiased historical truth!

      Shantam, this episode demonstrates the extent to which you’ve become emotionally, mentally and intellectually toxic.

      • shantam prem says:

        You mean and pathetic one, let me make it clear again and again for the sake of history:
        There is never an intention and nor circumstantial evidence that Nirvano was murdered.

        Because Satyadeva is blindly fixated with me, so he is trying to stretch my words. Should I write a note to his spiritual mentor?

        Though I will definitely say there is a cover-up in this sense: nobody knows the true story behind her act of untimely death (which is closer to suicide).
        Let us say she has written a final note, cover-up means to burn this note with cigarette lighter and make it disappear. This is a logical conclusion and a valid guess.

        Cover-up also means without looking into the emotional pressures in her brain (Pisces Woman-Aquarius Man) and simply spreading the news that she was always suffering from bi-polar.

        These kind of cover-ups and disciples think they are protecting the dignity of one of the most closest disciples of Osho.

        • satyadeva says:

          In several ways your arguments are flawed, Shantam:

          “…I will definitely say there is a cover-up in this sense: nobody knows the true story behind her act of untimely death (which is closer to suicide).”

          If nobody knows the truth, how can you or anyone else say her death was “closer to suicide”?

          “Let us say she has written a final note, cover-up means to burn this note with cigarette lighter and make it disappear. This is a logical conclusion and a valid guess.”

          This is just pointless speculation, Shantam, because no one can ever know whether it happened and it can not be assumed to be the case on any balance of probabilities. As such, it’s another slice of innuendo, the propagation of which is your main (or only) motivation for writing and commenting on the article.

          “Cover-up also means without looking into the emotional pressures in her brain (Pisces Woman-Aquarius Man) and simply spreading the news that she was always suffering from bi-polar.”

          You really think it appropriate that inquests into premature deaths should delve into astrological relationship readings?! Readings by whom, appointed by whom, and on what authority? By you? On yours? God help us all!

          “These kind of cover-ups and disciples think they are protecting the dignity of one of the most closest disciples of Osho.”

          Not only her dignity, but surely, the reputation of Osho and of the entire movement. If, for example, she was using heroin and a normal inquest happened, can you imagine the ensuing furore in the media if this was brought out into the public domain, eg ‘Sex Guru’s girlfriend/lover/personal carer dies of heroin overdose!’ (and so on). It would have severely undermined everything, and who knows where it might have ended?

          • shantam prem says:

            This is what cover-up means…
            Protecting the reputation at the cost of truth. And that too in the last part of 20th century when every public figure’s life is in media´s eyes.

            And is not a divine justice that Sannyas movement has gone into the footnotes of history?

            If human cleverness can sidetrack the Tao, there won´t be any need for religion, spirituality, religiousness and all the allied subjects.

            • satyadeva says:

              The only ‘cover-up’ worth discussing here is the one Shantam’s perpetrating by pretending he’s speaking impersonally in the interests of truth and justice, while it’s as clear as daylight that he’s simply seeking to further his personal anti-Jayesh & co. agenda.

              Unfortunately, he’s not quite bright enough to even realise what his motivation is, such is his penchant for self-delusion, for ‘covering-up’ the truth about himself from himself.

              And time after time, similarly unbelievably stupid behaviour from someone who thinks he’s fit to pronounce on how Sannyas should be run. As they say, you really couldn’t make it up!

              Still, I suppose it could be said that we’re ‘lucky’ to have been given the chance to observe what sort of utter mediocrity gets to want to begin to shape so-called ‘religion’. Laughable, yet tragic, if even a modified version of ‘Shantam’s way’ were ever to prevail in the movement inspired by Osho.

    • Neophyte Proselyte says:

      “The Indian mind is full of sexuality, full of anger, full of hatred – and it talks about love, talks about compassion, talks about non-violence. But don’t be deceived by their talk – their talk simply shows that just the opposite is inside them. And now they are free; there is no pressure on them to go on repressing…

      All kinds of things go on happening in India for the simple reason that the country lacks character – character in my sense, character that arises as a by-product of consciousness.

      India is absolutely characterless, but what they think is character, they go on bragging about all around the world: that they are very religious, very moral. And that is sheer nonsense! I have seen their morality, I have seen their character – it is bogus, it is just painted. And when you have a painted face your face can be exposed.” (‘Zen: Zest, Zip, Zap, Zing’, Chapter 9: ‘India: A New Present for a New Future’)

      • shantam prem says:

        Neophyte Proselyte,
        If you have a little bit of character and human dignity, you would have written with your original name and with proper introduction.

        Anyway, you have not written anything, just quoting Osho and that too that aspect which fits with your closed mind.

        Anyway, thanks for reading Sannyasnews.

  19. Arpana says:

    Appalling how corrupted Shantam’s mind is in comparison with the westerners. No wonder, no one goes to Shantam for learning religion, spirituality and finer points of human consciousness.

  20. Lokesh says:

    Oh dear, Shantam has hit an all-time low…not just scraping the bottom of the barrel but going through it, to that last refuge frequented by scoundrels through the ages…patriotism.

    Regulars here on SN are all too aware that Shantam lives in Germany and, according to him, reliant on the welfare state created by the evil Western mind. A reminder here that Osho gave explicit advice to his sannyasins heading west in ’81 not to sponge off welfare systems or become in any way dependent on them. How then does this fit into Shantam’s image of himself being a true disciple of Osho, when he cannot even follow basic tenets laid out by his master?

    Shantam confesseses that his fantasies are now extending into his dream world, saying, “During the night, I was feeling how innocent and non-corrupted Indian mind is in comparison with the West.”

    Of the dozens of countries I have visited, India ranks as one of the most corrupt, right up there with Sri Lanka, where you really can get away with murder if you have the money to pay the bribes. I have witnessed this first-hand.

    If Shantam’s Indian mind is anything to go by it contains little that is innocent, and as for corruption – corruption in this instance meaning rotten – well, Shantam, going by his comments on SN, harbours racist tendencies, exhibits sexist behaviour toward women, and appears to be suffering from a varicose condition of the external hemorrhoidal veins causing painful swellings and bleeding at the anus.

    Goodness gracious me! Doe this sound healthy and uncorrupted to you? No, of course not. It is disgusting.

  21. Tan says:

    Thanks, Lokesh! Much better than my kickings, I have to admit. XXX

    • shantam prem says:

      A woman covered in Burqa from top till bottom wants to kick like Beckham!

      Western mind personified by Lokesh, Satyadeva, Tan and Madhu of this site think they are individuals and all these individuals think in the same way.

      Android in their brain think only Apple has the factory-packed software!

      • Lokesh says:

        Dear Shantam, thanks for help in turning your extremely uninspiring article into a jolly good laugh. Thanks also for playing the role of psychological punchbag. You must indeed be filled from head to toe with sawdust to take so many whacks from a multitude of directions and still be left vomiting piss and vinegar on this…the final bell.

        Now, onwards to the next thread in the fascinating tapestry called SN.

  22. shantam prem says:

    Santa Singh became Swami Santa Bharti and one could feel his attitude towards life has changed.

    His old friend Banta Singh reminded him, “I think now you have become spiritual, you won´t hesitate to give my money back. It is already more than three years that you promise next month and postpone.”

    Swami Santa said, “My friend, how long you will remain attached with the past? Life is here and now.”

    • satyadeva says:

      If that’s meant to be an analogy with the ‘inquiry’ you’ve started here, Shantam, then again, it’s flawed.

      Repaying such a financial debt is of significant practical value to the lender, whereas merely speculating about what happened to Vivek/Nirvano over a quarter of a century ago, and who might or might not have caused or helped to cause her death, without prospect of ever finding the truth, is ultimately a waste of time and energy, however much a speculator like yourself might desperately want to implicate those he regards as enemies.

      • shantam prem says:

        This analogy is a light-hearted attempt to tease the cliche of here and now, past is no more etc., something which collective Sannyas mind is very active to quote. It was not written as an extension of “uninspiring article”.

  23. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    In the Greek mythology we have the parables like the´Labours of Heracles´.
    One of them is dedicated to deal with the Hydra, a ´beast housing in the underground like a huge octopus with nine heads, one of which was said to be immortal.

    The story goes, that if one of the kraken-heads wakes by being fought with the wrong methods, at least two new fresh ones grow out of the wounded limbs and come into function.
    Not a bad analogy for digital age and digital natives, even it is clear, isn’t it, that we were not born as such inhuman, robot-like entities?

    I would like to quote from a response yesterday late afternoon, a little bit altered though:
    “this thread-episode demonstrates the extent to which we are in danger to become emotionally, mentally and intellectually toxic.”

    These were the right words, echoing in my heart, as it was not enough to follow Prem Martyn’s: “Really, it’s much safer to just stay online and rack up those expenses.”

    He spoke then about ´the scary world “outside” as if that would be nowadays possibly cleanly to be separated from. That is not the case. Has never been, by the way. But up to now, very few decades ago, the delusion could be held. This time is over and we all are individually as collectively asked to cope with that challenge.

    Rarely I meanwhile go into such ancient parables and myths like that of Heracles. But yesterday, seeing what mercilessly unfolded, crossing any borderline, here, it happened.

    Madhu

    • shantam prem says:

      When smart ladies and gentlemen are happy to make small gossips with their beauticians and hair cutters, someone has to do the dirty work too.

      Madhu, if you are really in touch with Greek mythology then you should feel a sense of wonder, a deja vu rather than condemning and cursing each and everyone who does not fit with your imaginary of healed world.

      Most of the modern day astrology books take their inspiration from Greek mythology and Jung´s psychology. So I have some familiarity with the characters.

  24. Kavita says:

    Madhu, just sharing what I think & feel about that toxicity which happened here yesterday. Even though a miniscule, it’s disgusting enough but definitely not enough to contaminate the whole of of Existence & definitely I have not taken in any of that consciously.

  25. swami anand anubodh says:

    There is a backstory which is relevant to the events of 9th Dec. ’89 which our mischievous Sikh friend would not be aware of as he is a latecomer to Osho.

    I remember there was great concern that after the ‘Jonestown Massacre’ in 1978 the same might happen within the community of sannyasins. And so Bhagwan made efforts to reassure the world that such a thing would not be possible with his people as his teaching is life affirming.

    http://www.oshoworld.com/biography/innercontent.asp?FileName=biography7/07-48-jonestown.txt

    As you can read he also took full advantage to be critical of other world religions for doing exactly the opposite. He speaks about how the suicide of an American sannyasin caused many problems. But above all else he is absolutely adamant that he is creating an environment where such a thing as suicide would not be possible.

    No doubt the ensuing events at the Ranch were a serious blow to his optimism. But at least Osho managed to limp back to India without a Jonestown on his CV.

    This particular conspiracy theory of ‘foul play’ has been contrived, and is a crude attempt to throw mud at the Resort management in the hope that some of it will stick (no doubt with the approval of others much higher up the food chain).

    So rather than adding to the intrigue by speculating on unresolvable issues like: ‘who may have done what to whom…’ stick to the known facts and put yourself in the position of Osho receiving the news that Vivek had committed suicide.

    The one thing he effectively vowed would not be possible. Compounded by it being someone closest to him.

    What decision would you make about what to do next???

    Do you deal with the matter expediently and discreetly? Or do you allow a public farewell and risk destroying a life’s work by romanticising her death and possibly inspiring other idiot sannyasins to ‘copycat’ her actions?

    Does this dilemma really put you in a laughing mood?

    (All those with a Sikh heritage are excused this particular exercise as a certain amount of inner enquiry will be needed).

    • shantam prem says:

      Anubodh, two, three times I have read your post. It really makes sense. Thanks

      Your post also makes me curious in which year you came to Osho?

      It seems you are not from a Sikh background, nor Islamic, nor Irish Christian or from Greek or Russian Orthodoxy.

      Maybe Jew, Jain/Indian or Nepali Hindu living in UK or Canada!

      • swami anand anubodh says:

        SP,
        Just to tidy up a loose end…

        You said on 7 December, 2015 at 11:11 pm:

        “I think it is justified if British press takes this issue and investigates the mysterious circumstances leading to the sudden death of one of their fellow citizens just 26 years ago”

        I agree.

        So tell us: What happened when you contacted the British press with a request to launch an investigation?

        I am sure followers of SN would rather know how you were received rather then whether I am from Timbuktu or not.

        • shantam prem says:

          I have written this piece only for Sannyasnews. I treat sannyasnews as one of the few sites where life and time of Osho´s disciples is chronicled.

          I have not shared the link of this article on facebook also, neither have any intention to connect with British Press or Indian press.

          • swami anand anubodh says:

            So what you have deliberately done, Mr Sikh, is maliciously invoked the British press as a means to add gravity to your crusade, with full awareness that they have no knowledge of the events in question, and are now trying to cover your tracks with indignation and childish metaphors.

            I look forward to your next tirade against the Resort management for their deceitfulness.

          • satyadeva says:

            I think you’re extremely fortunate that SN allows you to keep posting such rubbish, Shantam. Most, or all similar sites would have severely curtailed or banned much of your stuff by now.

  26. shantam prem says:

    On the eve of Osho´s birthday, I request again to different disciple factors indulging in leg-pulling to drop their anger, rivalry, jealousy and fears and work together to make Osho Commune International again the centre of the cyclone, the fertile Buddhafield where new spirituality takes birth.

    Solution is very simple. Let Jayesh and Neelam meet and share not a handshake but an Osho Hug. Let us show to the world how with Osho hug egos can drop.

    • Arpana says:

      Start with yourself, Shantam.
      You pompous, self-righteous, self-deceiving, obscene hypocrite.

    • satyadeva says:

      Such a wish would carry far more authenticity if you were to renounce most or all of your articles and posts that are desperately critical of and abusive towards your ‘enemies’ in the ‘Regime’, Shantam, notably including your latest outpourings on Vivek’s death, which are just sensationalist tabloid trash-with-an-agenda.

      As Arpana says, it starts with yourself, ie the buck stops with you.

    • Lokesh says:

      Shantam declares, “Let us show to the world how with Osho hug egos can drop.”

      Yeah, Shantam, maybe that is something you should actually put into practice.

      • shantam prem says:

        Without putting this into practice, I would not have hugged you, Lokesh. Somewhere your wounded ego is unable to see the reality.

        You are a basically good chap who just wants to grab all the attention and wishes the recognition to be accepted as someone superior because seven years investment with Osho is not a small work.

  27. Kavita says:

    Swami, one more time a reminder:
    If you want that “Jayesh and Neelam meet and share not a handshake but an Osho Hug”, why don’t you call them personally and tell them?

    Instead of wasting energy, time & money on insinuation of motives etc., maybe see once & for all what they have to say.

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      How beautiful and sensitive – your choice of contribution for today´s moments, Kavita. Love – very much in tune you are, it seems.

      So grateful for the nature in it all is me.

      You know this tiniest, smallest of tiny birds? This creature with the multi-coloured feathers? Airing the air like a butterfly?
      Not living here in cold regions? But somewhere where the rainforests still bloom?

      Yet my heart sometimes feels like this: It´s called JOY
      And thank you for this.

      Madhu

  28. shantam prem says:

    Amazing people are here at sannyasnews. Even on 11th December, they won´t stop their reactionary attitude. Shantam v/s Almost All has become the game. As if one elephant has created a syndicate of all other meat eaters and grass eaters.

    And these similar minds think they will inherit the kingdom of God.

    • Lokesh says:

      Shantam, it will take a shock, but one day I predict that it will dawn on you that what people are saying to you on SN might actually have more than a little to do with your very own ‘reactionary attitude’. That will be a tough day for you but also a good one as it will put you back on the mainline instead of being stuck up a siding, belching sulphurous smoke that nobody but yourself is very interested in. Choo-choo.

      • shantam prem says:

        “This is the destiny of whistle blowers, it hurts the ears drums of meditative sleepers.”

        And Lokesh, how many cents of investment you still have with Osho and Sannyas? For a person like you, it would have been the great service if someone has created the site, http://www.papajinews.com

        Why don´t you create some website based on your idea and thoughts instead of cursing the other?

        • Lokesh says:

          Shantam, I have never viewed Osho or the Sannyas movement as some sort of commodities that one could have an investment in. I simply cannot relate to such an alien concept.

          As for the rest of your mumbo-jumbo, I can’t relate to that either. Your need to draw attraction to yourself using whatever limited tools available to you is symptomatic of a child who did not receive enough attention from its parents in infancy.

    • satyadeva says:

      If “Shantam v/s Almost All has become the game” then it might well be worth investigating the reasons why, wouldn’t it?

      I suggest you take heed of the old saying, ‘If one person calls you a horse, you can shrug it off, if two call you a horse it might be a bit disturbing but maybe still not that significant, if three call you a horse it might be worth checking the mirror – but if four or more call you a horse then you’d better buy a saddle!’

      • Lokesh says:

        SD, a coincidence. I thought of exactly the same saying in regards Shantam. The first time I heard it was in a Veeresh Aum marathon. It was directed at me, sitting on a very uncomfortable hot seat. I am quite sure it was apt at the time.

        • shantam prem says:

          This is one of the points I can relate with Lokesh. His wisdom is earned by being on very uncomfortable hot seat time and again. Satyadeva plays too safe therefore it provokes my sense of fair play.

          And Lokesh, if in eternity you meet Veeresh ever again, tell him, just because someone is on the hot seat does not make him wrong or false!

          • satyadeva says:

            “because someone is on the hot seat does not make him wrong or false!”

            If by being on the “hot seat” you’re referring to posting at SN then I’m afraid you’re more often than not an exception to this ‘rule’, Shantam.

            We’re still waiting for evidence of any “wisdom” gained from the continuous exposure here of your over-impulsive, poorly researched, ill thought-out, over-emotional outpourings (all ploys to deflect your focus away from the realities of your life) and the overwhelmingly negative responses they generate.

            Perhaps you thrive on the attention and mistake that apparently gratifying feeling for “wisdom”? If so, that would be rather stupid, wouldn’t it?

        • satyadeva says:

          Well, I also heard that one from a similar source, although not during a ‘marathon’ and not directly from Veeresh.

  29. Arpana says:

    Everything you ever write here is always a description of yourself.

  30. shantam prem says:

    It is not a matter of concern what Arpana writes; Lokesh falling to that level is a matter of concern.

    When an amusing story creates abusiveness, it shows difference of opinions are turning into enmity.

  31. shantam prem says:

    During Pune days, when one of the best satsang atmospheres was created through hot and cold discussion with friends, presence of WAGs was felt as a hindrance. Here at sannyasnews, I feel those forefathers were right who thought best place for women is in the kitchen.

    P.S:
    Ladies and Gentlemen, start with your volleys.

  32. Kavita says:

    ”I feel those forefathers were right who thought best place for women is in the kitchen.”

    & I wish I had listened to my maternal grandmother who said not to make friends with strangers of other religions!

    • shantam prem says:

      Your maternal grandmother was as wise as mine…My deepest love and regard for such women who could not sign their names properly yet knew the essence of life. India was richer because of such women.

      • Kavita says:

        I somehow could never relate to her, thank God I didn’t spend more time with her. If I was obedient to her she would have got me married as soon as I had started to menstruate, to one of her nephews!

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