Such good groundwork but a fatal flaw

Blessed Times

Dhyan Pascal

 

 

 

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64 Responses to Such good groundwork but a fatal flaw

  1. Arpana says:

    Like recalling another incarnation, especially watching with no sound

    • frank says:

      Me too,
      I had a past-life flash of being that guy dressed only in mal-fitting Y-fronts, twitching and jerking like a lab animal with electrodes on my head.

      It never did me any harm!

      • Arpana says:

        I did Dynamic every day for about six weeks, up till the day before I left; the day after Bhagwan came and sat with us in silence, on the 9th May, 1981. Best I ever felt in my life up until then, because of the Dynamic, that is.

        • frank says:

          Dear Marge,
          I did dynamic 6 times a day for 6 years, but today, if anyone disagrees with me or looks at me funny, I still kick off, big time.

          Do you think I will ever get enlightened, or should I just turn myself in?

        • shantam prem says:

          34 years ago Arpana did the Dynamic for 42 days… Is this enough an investment to get awakened in this life and also to get ownership rights of two bedroom flat in Heaven?

          P.S:
          It is just a joke. I don´t like to judge other people´s inner work. No one can do it.

          • Arpana says:

            Shantam says:
            “I don´t like to judge other people´s inner work.”

            Oh yes you do.

            You believe that if meditation was effective anyone who did even one session would be a carbon copy of you.

            You see yourself as the template of what a real sannyasin is.

      • Ashok says:

        Maybe not you, Mr Frank, but p’haps one or two others on the block were not so lucky!

        So I don’t get the title of this thread, is it really as simple as it looks i.e. pun on flaw? Or am I p’haps missing something again?

        • karima says:

          Fatal flaw is that we/I thought that doing dynamic religiously for umpteen years, we/I would be forever happy, blissed-out, peaceful and would never have a cross word/freak-out with anyone again.

          Fact is, it only made things worse, all the shit came gloriously drifting to the surface and we/I (un)happily indulge(d) in it up till now.

          Now the vital question is: Is that good or is that bad????

          I myself think it’s veryveryvery bad that still, after all those years of jumping up and down, I’m still jumping up and down; however, I’m jumping higher and falling lower, and again, is that good or is that bad???

          Perhaps the solution is to have deepdeepdeep discussion about that here on SN!

      • frank says:

        Is it quiznight at the ‘Finger and the Moon’ enlightenment theme pub again?

        Come on. What`s the “fatal flaw”?

        It`s got to be either the profusion of dodgy facial, follicle and underarm hair or the crypto-fascism lurking behind the ecstatic but authoritarian cultism.

        I think we should be told.

  2. shantam prem says:

    “Such good groundwork but a fatal flaw”…
    What is that fatal flaw, Mr. Editor?

  3. Parmartha says:

    Fatal Flaw – as Frank says: “crypto fascism lurking behind the ecstatic”.

    Even in Poona 1,
    Discussion was frowned on, and the commune was much too inward-looking. It had anti-democratic tendencies from the beginning, which the second regime in Rajneeshpuram ruthlessly exploited.

    It was this fatal flaw that led to fascism and to the collapse of 1985, despite the wonderful atmosphere of love.

    No-mind is not mindlessness.

    Nonetheless, this little video certainly captures something of what it was about.

    • Arpana says:

      Lot of people in would have done well to understand the difference between surrender and submission, not that I’m always sure what surrender means, but it isn’t submission.

      • prem martyn says:

        Surrender means you withdraw your choice. Submission means they take it away from you

        Position 1 of the Anarchist re the above.

        1)They have already lost, always and forever.
        2) Winning is of no interest.
        3) They cannot take away your life affirmation, as an inherent quality of one’s own life, so actually one/you/I never submits and that feels good whatever it looks like on the outside.
        4) If it feels like shit, then it is, actually, shit.
        5) Smile, it keeps ‘em puzzled.
        6) Fight as needed, but don’t struggle inside.
        7) Enjoy projecting and avoid being drawn on exactly who is what is who or why. Just stoke the fire, often.
        8) Celebrate the consequences of unconsciousness often, it makes for hilarious parties.
        9) Successfully fail.
        10) Expand on the above, mercilessly.
        11) Regret everything and nothing.

  4. prem martyn says:

    Fatal Flaw:

    Offering earnestness as a cure for earnestness by being gleefully earnest.

    Turning introspection into a dietary cure.

    Offering solitary meditation as a cure for isolation.

    Trying to out-do the Buddhists in their arrogance.

    Incapable of changing roles during the whole play.

    Utterly incapable of taking the piss whilst taking the piss.

    Not putting out the equivalent of these pub signs around any Osho centre but instead putting out loving reminders with blessings and lickable stone statues of some c*%t sitting on his arse as being definitive.

    Enjoy…beloveds…
    http://digitalsynopsis.com/advertising/40-funny-creative-bar-signs/

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      “Offering solitary meditation as a cure for isolation.” (Prem Martyn)

      Yes, Prem Martyn, that´s indeed a FATAL flaw, I know it by my own experience.

      However, it might as well appear to be the only approach left in precarious times, surrounded by wannabe anarchists verbally bulleting websites like this with as fascist approaches than those which they are up to intentionally destroy – only starting up with verbal abuse.

      You appear here often, as I see and feel it, more as a psychopath than an anarchist, roaring and roaming around, leaving hardly a space for life insights and responses other than your own (with your meanwhile well-known ‘followers’).

      I understand that you have been very much enjoying the Koshuan kids UK corner as a facilitator, some forty years ago; and the vid´posted here (as well as in Osho News in synchronicity) has about the same age.

      Being a facilitator gave strong feeling of life to you, and you miss it. Obviously. Instead of sharing the pain of a loss, you choose to be furious. And – not unlike Frank – give the warning of a kind of KZ setting if one does not agree with your stand or with that whichyou call your ‘humour’.

      Point is that the time and climate of those happenings is gone, gone, gone beyond (or/and retro in new-old camouflage). As well as the vid above of a community happening at that time.

      What I loved most about the vid has been that the sannyasins, one could see, have not been ´=performing ;meditation’ like it is nowadays mostly the case, in awareness of a camera team or even with selfies. Or maybe also happen to be your multi-tasking e-neighbours when attending a meditative meeting.

      So – I really love it (the vid, like others of that kind) as a testimony and remembrance of an essential quality lost to a great extent.

      The natural way, I call it.

      Madhu

      P.S:
      I came across some of these former Koshuan´s, now grown-ups, who didn´t feel as well as you did as facilitator; and now – if they can – they are settling some accounts with whomsoever in the age of their parents. So, the pendulum swings…

      P.P.S:
      And liked to read what Parmartha has responded to that time and age and more…to get a view of it – more sober….

      • prem martyn says:

        Madhu,

        Words wont help, Madhu.
        Try numbers…

        Number 4.

        I’ll be out in a minute.
        …Oh, I nearly forgot…

        5.

  5. Kavita says:

    ”Offering solitary meditation as a cure for isolation” – what an ironical paradox!

  6. Kavita says:

    “You appear here often, as I see and feel it, more as a psychopath than an anarchist, roaring and roaming around, leaving hardly a space for life insights and responses other than your own (with your meanwhile well-known ‘followers’).”

    Madhu, wonder what is your depth of insights (don’t bother if it’s too much to tell), probably much deeper? Except for his veggie propaganda, he is one of the stars of SN!

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Kavita,

      I won´t say that anyone is a “star” here (or we all are stars, if there is a need of such ratings). At best, I can say that I feel it sometimes happening that the issue/topic comes into a flow and very different entities with feeelable very different backgrounds are contributing, and then even sometimes this flow is not about the ´yesterdays´ but more contemporary.

      And when the latter is happening, it all depends, I guess, on honesty instead of being a trixter. Or showing up with some megalomanic sites, of knowing how all should be – like some yesterdays, or settling some accounts with the latter, which is also very okay if the own pain is not overstepped and totally hidden.

      That´s what you called rightly ´propaganda´, don´t you?

      Martyn can very well and does speak for himself, when addressed in special; I got hooked by the sentence I responded to, and it touched my utter pain to be quite isolated.

      Your background to the same sentence is most probably totally otherwise.

      I can only add at the moment that this was the only sentence of his full load, which confronted me with my pain of loss of many friends and my incapacity to compromise with post-modern e-standards of ‘coming together’.

      I have no solution for a change, neither for me, nor in general.

      What´s also falling apart for quite a long while now is the imagination of a ´oneness´, as I thoroughly feel all is going more than less into fragmentation, misunderstandings (deliberately or not) and quite often more autistic performances. Not in terms to relate with each other but more like show business. Leaving me starving in a way.

      I am not the only one; yet my expression of this is unique and so is yours, Kavita, Prem Martyn’s, Lokesh’s and everybody’s. Isn´t it?

      And I enjoy the variety to an issue/a topic.

      Master Musicians like Hariprasad Chaurasia left the gift of:

      ‘Call of the valley’
      and
      ‘The Valley recalls’.

      How difficult it is, though, to let that be in a verbal (even totally virtual) exchange… learning to play together like in an orchestra. In deep respect to the different tones and Silences in between.

      Madhu

        • Kavita says:

          1) Yes, Madhu – “I won´t say that anyone is a “star” here (or we all are stars, if there is a need of such ratings).”

          That’s why I said “one of the stars”.

          2) “And when the latter is happening, it all depends, I guess, on honesty instead of being a trixter. Or showing up with some megalomanic sites, of knowing how all should be – like some yesterdays, or settling some accounts with the latter, which is also very okay if the own pain is not overstepped and totally hidden.”

          Btw, I am as nude as possible for my conditioning .
          Come on, Madhu, who doesn’t do that? You mean to say you are the shining star here? Sorry, not for me – maybe for Simond!

          3) “That´s what you called rightly ´propaganda´, don´t you?”

          Propaganda, for me, is something which is very personal issue and we bring that in focus without any real context & of course, who doesn’t have one?!

          4) “Martyn can very well and does speak for himself, when addressed in special; I got hooked by the sentence I responded to, and it touched my utter pain to be quite isolated.”

          Martyn can, ofcourse, but you mentioned his fans. I do consider myself his fan & so I responded!

          5) “I can only add at the moment that this was the only sentence of his full load, which confronted me with my pain of loss of many friends and my incapacity to compromise with post-modern e-standards of ‘coming together’.

          I have no solution for a change, neither for me, nor in general.

          What´s also falling apart for quite a long while now is the imagination of a ´oneness´, as I thoroughly feel all is going more than less into fragmentation, misunderstandings (deliberately or not) and quite often more autistic performances. Not in terms to relate with each other but more like show business. Leaving me starving in a way.”

          Madhu, darling, I wish you do overcome your starvation but self-service is the only way for me whenever that is possible, probably for everyone too!

          6) “I am not the only one; yet my expression of this is unique and so is yours, Kavita, Prem Martyn’s, Lokesh’s and everybody’s. Isn´t it?”

          No doubt about that, dear!

          7) ” ‘Call of the Valley’ and ‘The Valley Recalls’.”

          I also enjoy those.

          8) “How difficult it is, though, to let that be in a verbal (even totally virtual) exchange… learning to play together like in an orchestra. In deep respect to the different tones and Silences in between.”

          Yes, it does seem difficult for some sometimes.

      • Kavita says:

        Thanx, Madhu, for reminding about the valley music :)

  7. prem martyn says:

    Madhu,

    The context is everything.

    I have just received an offer of dinner place mats as conversation starters with famous people from history, including Macchiavelli, Buddha, Mary Wollstencraft and Oscar Wilde (his contribution is: Can we ever fully understand the ones we love? Should we enjoy gossiping? Should the world be populated only by artists and independent thinkers?).

    You want the full course or just an appetiser? A conversation or a justification? An expiation of sins or a transformation of the being? Please tell the waiter, as they are taking orders now.

  8. Lokesh says:

    I currently have a respected friend visiting. We just had a morning chat about what we saw as the basic flaw in Osho’s work. Selfishness.

    I understand why Osho encouraged people to accept, embrace and live out their intrinsic selfishness. For me, being selfish appears almost like a fundamental to living in the human realm, so why not live it instead of pretending the situation is otherwise? Due to events, too long and complex to be gone into right now, I eventually tired of the creedo of selfishness.

    My friend, who has visited Poona many times over the last 40 years, was never interested in taking sannyas. His observations over the years about the sannyasin indulgence in selfishness were summed up by him more or less in the following words:

    It was like letting a bunch of 7-year-olds indulge themselves. At first, the rebellious aspects of this were fun and understandable. Rebelling against parents, society and convention etc. Eventually, it turned into narcisstic obsession, which is not very attractive when viewed from the outside.

    Perhaps the process was needed up to a point, well and good. Today, when I see certain individuals still hanging on to Osho’s ‘be utterly selfish’ programme it appears embarassing, ugly, stupid and immature.

    Therefore, if you ask me what was flawed in Osho’s teaching it is not being mature enough to see that being selfish is okay up to a point, but not being able to move beyond that selfishness is childish, because narcissim is a belief in ego which separates one from the true self.

    • shantam prem says:

      What kind of respected friend that can be who visits Pune for 40 years and did not take the sannyas because it is below his level? Sannyas in context of Osho is not more than wearing a swim suit on the beach.

      Yes, there are poeple who click their photos in their underwear too. There are few intelligent men who prefer to sit on the nudist beach with their burqas.

      Such respected people…My foot!

      • Lokesh says:

        Shantam, by describing someone as a respected friend I mean a person whose company I value. He had other reasons to visit Poona besides visiting the ashram/resort. As it happened, he has done so on many occasions. He has many sannyasin friends and has never once spoken to me in such a way as to cast the impression that Sannyas was below him.

        You have a very narrow-minded way of viewing things. Your taking sannyas obviously has not helped on that level. In fact, I find your whole stance in relation to what it means to be a sannyasin highly suspect.

  9. frank says:

    Shantam,

    By your own account, one flash of a pair of titties was enough for you to renounce and drop out of law school and sign up for a piece of the action. And as the Punjabi top gun stud, you ended up, all expenses paid by Mr Fritz in Free Lunchland, living just down the road from a nudist lake doing less for a living than a narcoleptic Taoist on a sleepover. Not bad!

    And you are still moaning?

    Don`t you think a bit of joie-de-vivre and even gratitude might be in order instead of your incessant complaining?

    The average inhabitant of Jullundur would give his left bollock to be in your shoes! Get a grip, man!

    A disciple, whose devotion was so intense that it was said that only one flash of the chief disciple’s` breasts was enough to induce a satori in him, went to his master`s ashram and devoted himself to the spiritual life.

    One day,he asked for darshan with the master. Master asked him what his problem was.
    “Well, my girlfriend wants it 10 times a day.”
    “Mmm…what is problem?”
    “Well, my other girlfriend also wants it ten times a day.”
    “Mmm…and?”
    “Well, my wife wants it ten times a day too.”
    “I see, and?”
    “Also, there is a girl in the tantra group, she also wants it ten times a day.”
    “Ok, and?”
    “Actually, I am a little bit gay,as well, so I have a boyfriend who wants it ten times a day.”
    “Mmm, I see…”
    “Well, actually, two boyfriends.”
    “Yes, but what exactly is the problem?” said the master, by now getting a little irritated.
    “Well you see, I get blackouts when I have a wank.”

  10. shantam prem says:

    Lokesh, “Which side would you be on?”
    Arpana, “Survival side.”

    Answer is a fitting answer for the people who swear to be diehard Osho disciples. From master´s follies they all have learnt the art of survival.

    You provoke others, we will say Osho, Osho.
    You get chains and poison, we will say Osho, Osho.
    You die for us, we want to survive. Chairman Jayesh is our living Messiah!

    • Arpana says:

      This is even more moronic than usual for you, Shantam booby.

    • Lokesh says:

      Which side would you be on? This refers to a film Arps mentioned, ‘If’. In its time it was cutting edge and radical.

      • shantam prem says:

        In Uncle Freudian psychology, banana is lingam, apples are vaksham!

        To be on the survival side has become a Neo-Sannyas theme. To be true, we all have become experts in living at other people´s work with the pretension, “We are doing The Inner Work.”

        Let us be honest and ask each other, “What kind of work best of the best Osho Bloggers are doing?”

        MOD: SHANTAM, PLEASE EXPLAIN THE SECOND PARAGRAPH.

        • shantam prem says:

          Mr. Moderator, second paragraph means you can create a string to know about the work/profession/job/career disciples are involved in after their self-discovering Pune/Rajneeshpuram odyssey.

          I am curious how many can be truthful in their descriptions.

        • Kavita says:

          “Let us be honest and ask each other, “What kind of work best of the best Osho Bloggers are doing?” ”

          I don’t have an answer for that, but what’s yours? Or maybe Ashok can answer that!

        • Lokesh says:

          Shantam declares, “To be on the survival side has become a Neo-Sannyas theme.”

          That makes me think of Osho talking about not reducing life to survival. There is something tragic when you ask someone how they are getting along and they reply, “Surviving”.

          Shantam, you have not reached refugee level, so would you mind explaining what this shite you are writing is supposed to mean? You say, “Let us be honest and ask each other, “What kind of work best of the best Osho Bloggers are doing?” ”

          What business is that of yours? Who exactly are the best Osho Bloggers? And what is your criteria for what constitutes the best in this case?

          • shantam prem says:

            Simple thing is, Lokesh, vast percentage of Swamis and Mas are engaged in earning money through crooked means or taking the benefit of other people´s work.

            Spiritual ponzi schemers people become when pass through distress situations. Thousands of people left their career and countries to follow a different dream. When it collapsed and people have to go back to the world once they despised, clever ways to earn money become tools of survival.

            It is nonsense to say, “What business is yours?” I am not pointing fingers towards some individual, but collective situation.

            • satyadeva says:

              “Simple thing is, Lokesh, vast percentage of Swamis and Mas are engaged in earning money through crooked means or taking the benefit of other people´s work.”

              Oh, really? How many of this “vast percentage” have you interviewed then, Shantam? Where’s the evidence, please?

              No, you’re just trying, once again, to offload your own dissatisfaction, your own personal frustration, of ‘failure’, onto ‘circunstances’, created, but of course, by those nasty others – you know, the ones who are responsible for ruining your life, those people.

              • shantam prem says:

                I start from you, Satyadeva. What is your profession? Is your quality of life based on the money you earned through your work?

                Next ones are Frank and Arpana. Hope they will be honest enough to tell something about their job resume.

                • Arpana says:

                  Another of your puerile attempts at manipulation.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Once again, I repeat, Shantam, how people who write on this blog make a living is none of your business. In essence, you are a nosey parker. In general, the people who are interested in other people’s business are the people who do not have any business of their own to take care of.

                  This forum is a public one. At its heart lies the possibility to discuss Osho and his work, not how his people make money. When Osho left for the West in 1981 he was very clear that he did not want his sannyasins sponging off the Social Security systems in Europe and America. Where does that leave you in the picture?

                • shantam prem says:

                  Lokesh kind gets the right to question and scrutinize every act of omission and commission of Osho yet nobody should question, “How you have managed your finances after spending years out of the socio-economic system?” I am not asking as a taxation man but as a question of self-inquiry.

                  What is basically the agenda to be a seeker, one encounters tough questions. The way it has provoked your otherwise cool demeanour shows a weakest link in strong chain. Matter of the fact is, every single day I encounter this question in me. It is an open wound.

                  Here I wish to mention about a dear friend, who left quite a promising law practice and future in politics, who now sustains himself on alms somewhere in Haridwar for the reason he has spent his best years in and around Osho commune.

                  I mean, we all are paying the bill, quite often with deep contentment too. So it is a very valid point and worth a string: How Osho sannyasins are sustaining themselves post-Commune?

                • satyadeva says:

                  So your claim, “Simple thing is, Lokesh, vast percentage of Swamis and Mas are engaged in earning money through crooked means or taking the benefit of other people´s work” was, as suspected, just a load of hot air, like so many of your baseless, unresearched assertions. You should get a job in the gutter press, Shantam, they readily employ the likes of you.

                  In the light of that, plus the fact you invariably avoid – or apparently hardly read – what for you are mindset-’threatening’ questions, well, you can take your question and stuff it up your backside. Karma, swami, karma!

  11. Kavita says:

    This is such an irony! Shantam, you have taken Jayesh’s name more than any living Osho sannyasin other than probably anyone who has/had any direct longest physical contact with Jayesh; it seems you have spent more time with Jayesh – more than even his girl friend!

    • shantam prem says:

      It is a sad irony, among the Seers, Shantam is the only blunt one who is not hesitating to say where lies the flaw.

      It is surely not Sheela, not Modi.

      • satyadeva says:

        Quite so, Shantam.

        Look in the mirror and perhaps you’ll find the answer…eventually…perhaps….

        • shantam prem says:

          When diagnostic answer about the systematic flaws is given, it is serious business. No one likes such childish clichés, “Look in the mirror”.

          Satyadeva, I can also say, “watch your fragile ego”, certainly it needs development.

          • satyadeva says:

            The point is, Shantam, as has been pointed out to you countless times here by a number of people, that you refuse to be responsible for your own situation, you insist on blaming others and external circumstances for your unhappiness. As such, you are the creator of your own suffering.

            Have you read and digested Parmartha’s recent suggestion that you do a sannyas encounter group over there in Germany?

            Or, as one suspects, have you glossed over that one, relegating it to your internal Trash file, as you do to others that ‘make you feel’ uncomfortable – especially those, like Parmartha’s, that, if taken on board, might just threaten to undermine your irresponsible mind-set?

      • Kavita says:

        Shantam, I am sure, we all at SN are already at peace after reciting your name the maximum times!

    • frank says:

      Kavita,
      He`s got a thing about the vital organs of chief disciples. He spent 30 years thinking about Sheela’s` tits and the last 10 years thinking about Jayesh`s balls.

      But the most indelible disciple/organ related image on the poor lad’s` fragile psyche comes from the time when he went along to an event advertised as “Lord of the Full Moon Meditation” in the Resort.

      When he and a number of other serious devotees filed respectfully into the Samadhi they were amazed to be greeted with the sight of Amrito, who had clearly started early, waving a half-empty bottle of Bombay gin at them, then pulling up his robe, the chief disciple turned round and shook his shiny, milky white gluteals at them, shouting: “I am the lord of the full moon,you losers, and if you think marble’s`got energy, you should try kissing these babies!”

      • Arpana says:

        So vivid is that description, Francis, methinks you must have been there.

        Did you take him up on his offer? I think we should be told.