Original German Baker sees Devastation

Transcend Terror argues the founder of the German Bakery

Klaus Gutzeit started the original German Bakery many years ago in Pune, at the suggestion and request of some of his sannyasin friends, who sure knew he could bake from previous times in Goa! The news of the blast on Feb 14th in Pune reached Klaus in the calm of the hills of Himachal Pradesh. Despite now being 64-years-old he immediately packed his bags and set off for Pune.

“I was shocked and it was important for me to be there,” said the nomadic German. “On the first day we opened the German bakery years ago in Pune when Osho was alive, there was a mad rush. After that we have never looked back,” he recalled.

“I thought it would help them a little on seeing me, being with them in their moment of grief…also I thought I should give them my support,” said Gutzeit, who is now in Goa, the place where he learnt he had it in him to be a successful baker. He was shocked by the devastation he saw but says terrorism can’t be allowed to win. “When I think about it, I’m filled with anger and sorrow. But we have to live with it and look forward with optimism. We can’t let terrorism win, the human will is much stronger than that,” he said.

The Bakery is now run by a local family, the Kharoses, but Gutzeit got to meet his old Nepalese friend Gopal, who has been in the bakery for 20 years. “I gave him my moral support. I am too old now to be of any real help to him,” said Gutzeit, lovingly called Woody by his friends. “I hope there will be a new German Bakery soon. There is so much moral support and demand for it.”

Woody, a school drop-out, who describes himself as a “simple traveller, doing writing, painting, and photography”, arrived in India in 1970 at the end of a road trip that took him one and half years. He never left.

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56 Responses to Original German Baker sees Devastation

  1. oshobob says:

    Inspiring! Heartwarming! A tale of courage and compassion! Transcending all national bourndaries, something you can take the whole family to go and see. Five stars! Bravo!

    But the big question that remains unanswered is…

    can “Goodtime Woody” put out a decent Wiener Schnitzel plate or not? You know, man cannot live on Pumpernickel bread alone ….. or can he?

    and…

    will the resurrected Phoenix of the German Bakery, rebuilt on the ashes of despair, rising again as an enduring monument to the indefatigable human spirit, send some apple strudel to the Bhaktal Bros. in their death row prison cell or not? Come on, maybe day old, beyond the sale date, at least ….

  2. Fresch says:

    I have very lovely memories from German Bakery, but it was very noisy, not many sanyasins in the evenings (I would not do it), quite a lot of restless people hanging out there. If they manage to open it again, I hope they try to make less crowded or it could work as a fast food take-away-place. The film is really lovely. I do miss Pune so much.

    Shantam, or somebody else, what would be a good book about Buddha’s life?

    Nobody has written the history of the communal living…? the thing is that when people meditate, we loose interest to use the mind…some outsiders should study us:)

  3. frank says:

    says fleschpot chianti:
    “when people meditate,we lose interest to use the mind”
    that is the kind of idiotic nonsense that i have come to expect from satsang junkies
    sitting in a line of white rogue flunkies
    with their minds jumping up and down like a bunch of friggin monkeys
    waiting for enlightenment that never comes
    then using whats left of “the mind” to rationalise why,,,

    old religions were against the body and tried to marginalise it.
    they ended up with badly kept and sick bodies.
    neo religion is “against the mind” so the subscribers end up with crap minds and rubbish thoughts.

    and all this as followers of the man with probably the largest private library,certainly of psychology and religion, in the world…..

    try banging your head against the wall or licking 12 volt batteries or something…..

  4. shantam prem says:

    “The film is really lovely”, which film you are talking about, Fresch?
    About Buddha , the following interview will prove to be of deep interest-Full Text
    ‘Compilers Ignored Historical Chronology’
    Stephen Batchelor, author of Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist, tells the untold story of the Buddha’s life and death.

    Outlook Interviews Stephen Batchelor

    What made you start on a search for the real Buddha?
    My interest was triggered by a project which took me for the first time to the places where the Buddha lived and taught–Shravasti, Kusinagar, Gaya, Vaishali, Rajgir, Boddhgaya. For the first time, I gained a clear geographical sense of the Buddha’s world. It created a sort of framework within which I started to read the early Pali texts. I started to look at the texts in a different light. Until then, like many Buddhists, I had a very vague idea of how the Buddha’s life actually unfolded. The Pali canon is like a window into 80 years of early Indian history, the first real historical text. In some ways it represents a human world, one where the gods are not really significant and its human beings struggling to control their own destiny. I also began to see the Buddha’s world in terms of the political and economic developments at that time. The more I read and the more I tried to piece the story together, particularly from the enlightenment to his death, I began to be more aware of the people occurring in these fragments of history. And slowly I was able to piece together a story.

    If all the details you discovered about the Buddha’s life and times are in the Pali canon, how come it’s not well known?
    One of the reasons his story was not well known was because the original compilers of the texts were not interested in the details. They were only interested in preserving the dhamma–the teachings of the Buddha. They organised the canon not according to the chronology but according to the length of the discourses. So you get little length discourses, long discourses, discourses connected thematically, discourses unified by using numericals to identify them. By dividing the canon that way, they destroyed inadvertently any sense of historical chronology. It’s only in very few texts where you actually have a sustained piece of narrative, an actual story. But when you put together all the little fragments of history, pulled out of the great resource of texts, you find that the little fragments are not arbitrary–not just there for decoration–but constitute a coherent whole. They all make sense one to the other, even the minor historical characters are consistently portrayed. There appears to be buried in the Pali canon, roughly five or six thousand pages long when translated, lots of little pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. You carefully put them together and you get a picture. Not entirely complete, but complete enough.

    And what is the picture?
    The standard picture that people have of him is this prince who grows up in a palace, renounces it all and becomes a Buddha, roaming around giving wonderful talks and hundreds of monks following him around. He teaches and teaches and one day he lies down and dies. They don’t think much about the enlightenment, but he had a task to achieve after that: to establish his teachings and his Sangha, the community. He says this on a number of occasions. These were his mission in life. In order to do that, he can’t just wander off with his monks somewhere in the Himalayas. He has to be able to find situations where he would have sufficient access to wealth, and where he would also have the guarantee of security. The only places where this could be provided on any scale were the emerging cities: Rajgir, Shravasti and to a lesser extent, Vaishali. He also had to deal with a very conflicted, troubled, violent and vicious world with kings and newly emergent monarchies and growing armies.

    We know from the text that he lived to quite an old age–he died at the age of 80. And we also know that he was enlightened at the age of 35 or 36. This means that for 45 years he was actively involved in teaching. And his teachings were not restricted to a handful of monks and nuns living in monasteries but addressed all levels of society, top to the bottom, in a period of Indian history where there was a transformation from very small republics that dominated the Gangetic plains to the emergence of the first monarchy which set the scene for the eventual unification of India under Chandragupta Maurya about a 100 years after.

    The other thing the Buddha was continuously engaged throughout his life was the care he had for his own community in Sakiya. It is sometimes talked about that after he left home, he somehow abandoned his responsibilities to his family and clan and just wandered off and became a monk. This is not entirely correct. After the enlightenment, he came back to Kapilavastu, reconciled himself to his family, and some of his most important followers were in fact his cousins: Devadatta, who subsequently tried to overthrow him, his son, Rahula, who was accepted into the order as a young boy, his stepmother, Mahapajapati, the first nun, his cousin Ananda, who memorised all the texts, another cousin, Aniruddha who was a close follower of his and present at his death, and importantly, his cousin, Mahanama, brother of Anirudha and Ananda, who succeeded him as the head of the Sakiyas on the death of the Buddha’s father, Suddhodana. So one of the aspects of the Buddha’s renunciation, when he leaves Sakiya at the age of 29, is essentially renouncing his role as the future leader of the Sakiyan people.

    But Sakiya wasn’t really a kingdom?
    Sakiya was one of the original ancient republics of India. It was not very big, a few hundred square miles at the most. By the time of the Buddha’s birth, it had ceased to be an independent republic governed by a council of elders and had become a province of the kingdom of Kosala with its capital in Shravasti. It was a community that was governed by representatives of the leading families, with one of them as a nominal head. At the time of the Buddha’s birth, his father Suddhodana was the head of the council that governed the internal affairs of the Sakiya, but they were the vassals of the king of Kosambi.

    Does that mean the Buddha became far more powerful politically than his father was?
    In some ways, yes. He moved in very powerful political circles. He had the support of some of the most powerful political figures of that time: King Bimbisara in Rajgir and King Prasenajit in Shravasti. He must have been a very, very good organiser, a very powerful leader of men and women, someone who really had a clear vision of what he was going to do and he set out to do it. This is not someone who just sits down and meditates and gives a talk occasionally. He’s deeply implicated in his world, not a renunciant, detached from the world like Mahavira.

    How did he win the support of the powerful kings of the time?
    The reason the kings supported him–I don’t think this was necessarily because they had a clear understanding of his philosophy — but because they saw him as some sort of genius, an inspirational figure, someone who had a lot of charisma–a visionary, as what we’d call such a person today–and they wanted to be associated with him. But it was also a period of enormous change: the first cities in India were only just emerging and the old ways of life which the Brahmins and those who followed the Vedas represented, essentially the agrarian lifestyle, was changing primarily because of economic development. There was now sufficient surplus through the immensely fertile production in the Gangetic area. The surplus production not only created a merchant class–very wealthy, including bankers – but also provided rulers with enough wealth to establish standing armies and enabled young men and women to leave home and survive off begging, to pursue religious, philosophical and other ideas. There is a movement to an unknown future. They would have seen their own emergent towns and cities as the beginnings of a new social order, somewhat overshadowed by the power of the Persians to the West. So I think these kings were supporting these armies and monks because they had civilising ambitions. And of course, in the end, a hundred years after the Buddha’s death, this did in fact happen: the emergence of the Mauryan empire. The first king, Chandragupta Maurya was a Jain, and Ashoka was a Buddhist, so they were clearly following, as it were, a movement in which Jainism and Buddhism were seen as alternatives to the Brahmanical religion, and there was a constant struggle between the different tendencies.

    Did the conflict with Brahminism exist in the Budhha’s time?
    No, that started after Ashoka’s time. During the Buddha’s lifetime, there was not these clearly defined camps, they had not really emerged. Clearly, the Buddha was very critical of Brahmanical thought. He was critical of the social system it legitimised, its metaphorical and religious ideas which he dismissed very directly. He had no time at all for any notions similar to that about God–he completely wiped that out of the picture. He is very suspicious of any kind of eternal soul. And when you start to look at some of the Buddha’s key ideas, they are clearly framed in opposition to the orthodoxy of the Upanishads or Vedanta. I think he saw his critique of the mainstream ideology of his time as an integral part of his attempt to create a new order, a new kind of world, as it were.

    Is there any physical description of the Buddha in the early texts?
    None at all. The only passage I found which has a physical description of him only says that he didn’t look any different from anybody else. He would have been fairly anonymous, like any Buddhist monk. The picture you have of the Buddha with this rather funny hairdo, the long earlobes and all of this, it’s an image that comes from a much later date, although it’s prefigured in the Pali canon because there must have been during the Buddha’s time a legend within the Brahmanical literature that spoke of a Mahapurusha–a great person–who will come at some point in history and he will bear these 32 characteristic physical marks, and there are two references in the Pali canon where a Brahmin hears that such a Buddha has appeared in the world and he goes to the Buddha in order to ascertain whether in fact he has these 32 marks, which he then proceeds to do and identify each one. Now that is clearly a piece of legend. So the images of Buddha don’t refer to his actual physical appearance but the fact that certain people believe he was a Mahapurusha who would therefore have to have these distinguishing traits.

    You say the Buddha was in exile towards the end of his life?
    In Rajgir, the king now was not Bimbisara, but Ajatasattu, who had not only overthrown his father, but had plotted with his teacher Devadatta to overthrow the Buddha. It appears that in Vaishali too he had lost his support. During the last rain retreat in Vaishali, he doesn’t stay in his usual place, which is a house with gabled roof in the great forest, but he stays in a little village outside the city walls by himself and he tells his monks to go and find lodging in the city for their support. Now this is strange–why does he do that? One possible reason for this is because he had recently been denounced to the Vaishali parliament by a man called Sunagatha, who was formerly a monk in the Buddhist community who then disrobed, left the community and went to the Vaishali parliament and said, “The monk Siddhartha Gautama is a fake.” So we know that he’s probably lost favour in Vaishali, he’s lost favour in Shravasti, his homeland is under attack, the Magadhans were treating him just as a sounding board for their next war. What you see in fact is that the Buddha falling out of favour essentially corresponds to the loss of his main benefactors. During the last nine or 10 months of his life, he’s constantly on the move, which again suggests this fact of exile.

    You also conclude that the Buddha may have been deliberately poisoned?
    He had no shortage of enemies. Pava, where he had his last meal, was one of the two principal towns of Malla, the Kosalan province adjoining Sakiya. Karayana, the general of the Kosalan army now laying waste to Sakiya, came from Malla, possibly from Pava itself. Pava was also where Mahavira, the ascetic founder of Jainism is said to have died a few years earlier, and when the Buddha arrived there was already a shrine to his principal rival. The text only says that the Buddha is invited to a meal along with his attendant monks at the house of a man called Cunda the smith. Cunda prepared a meal of sukaramadhava, tenderised pork, something like ham or bacon. From the moment it was offered to him, it seems that the Buddha suspected something was amiss with the food. “Serve the pork to me,” he told his host, “and the remaining food to the other monks.” When the meal was over, he said to Cunda:” You should now bury any leftover pork in a pit.” Then he “was attacked by a severe sickness with bloody diarrhoea, which he endured mindfully without any complaint.” His only response was to say to Ananda: “Let us go to Kusinara”, which under the circumstances, sounds like “Let’s get out of this place.”

    Why do you think he ate the pork if he knew it would make him sick?
    It makes perfect sense to me–he hastened his own death in order that his teaching would survive. Why would they kill an old man who was already dying? No point surely. We know the Buddha is very, very ill. What would be the point of poisoning an 80-year-old man who was already probably extremely ill. Doesn’t make sense. Why did the Buddha say, “Give me that food, and don’t give it to any of the others.” I don’t think the food was intended for the Buddha, it was intended for the others, particularly the monk Ananda, his cousin, who was the one who held in his memory everything that would exist. If you killed Ananda, you killed Buddhism. I think Ananda was the target. This is a somewhat original way of reading the text. But once you put the incidents into a chronological sequence, it’s very difficult not to draw that conclusion.

    He could have had it buried without anyone having to eat it?
    Perhaps he didn’t know for sure, but didn’t want to take chances. It’s true, you could explain it in another way, but all we have to go on are these few lines in these texts, it’s not a huge amount, we’ll never know.

    You say there was a power struggle after the Buddha’s death?
    Well, fortunately, the canon does not end with his death. It ends with the first council, held nine months after his death. And it describes quite clearly a power struggle: a struggle between Ananda, the Buddha’s cousin and a monk called Mahakassapa, who became a monk later in his life and is described as a former Brahmin. He claims to have received a kind of direct transmission from the Buddha. He wasn’t there when the Buddha died but arrived with a number of monks a week after his death, just before the cremation pyre is to be lit. Mahakassapa paid his last respects to the Buddha, the pyre was lit, and then the power struggle began. Mahakassapa does not consider Ananda to be fully enlightened, and therefore not qualified to have any leadership role in the community. Mahakassapa claims he’s fully enlightened and that he is the successor of the Buddha, even though the Buddha has explicitly declared that he will have no successor. Funnily enough, the Buddhist community now described him as the father of the Sangha. Now father in Latin is Papa, or Pope, the very thing the Buddha didn’t want happened within months of his death. Mahakassapa then organised the first council in Rajgir. He basically took over. And there are two sutras in the Pali canon where Mahakassapa is very dismissive, almost abusive, in his dealings with Ananda. He dismisses Ananda by saying he’s just a boy. “You don’t know your measure, boy.” And Ananda replies: “But are these not grey hair?” It’s very odd–why are those passages there, why haven’t they been edited out? There are a number of little passages, quite detailed, that tell us about the conflict before the first council.

    Was Mahakassapa’s take-over a bad thing for Buddhism?
    Mahakassapa took over at a time of great uncertainty. A war is about to break out. In some ways, if there hadn’t been a figure like that, a strongman or patriarchal authority, then perhaps Buddhism wouldn’t have survived. I think that has to be acknowledged as well–you sort of need people like that to take control, and to get a job done. Ananda would have perhaps been too gentle, he would have wanted consensus, he would have wanted to do things in a more accountable sort of way.

    Has unravelling his story reduced your admiration for the Buddha?
    I think I admire him even more now because I know him as a person rather than a mythic figure. I think the admiration I had for the Buddha until I started doing this work was for a rather idealised figure, but now you have a picture of a person who you can imagine very vividly, living on this earth, in this country, dealing with these characters–these ambitious relatives and kings–and in the midst of all these struggles, establishing his dharma sufficiently well so that we are talking about it now, I find this extraordinary.

  5. shantam prem says:

    The link to the above article-
    http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?264459

    “the thing is that when people meditate, we loose interest to use the mind…”
    The moment i read the above sentence, it was clear someone will jump over it.
    Frank seems to be waiting for this.

  6. oshobob says:

    looking at Batchelor’s account of Buddha’s life, don’t jump too quick to think that just because it seems new that it is truth….

    some of the comments on that link page of Outlook take exception to Batchelor’s slants, one major one would be that the word “sukara maddava” in the original Pali text means ‘pig’s delight’, which Batchelor translates as “pork”. It would mean that Buddha ate meat after a whole life of speaking against this practice. That would be a very odd. The commentor claims this word also identifies a kind of mushroom that pigs liked to eat, therefore it was a ‘pig’s delight’.

    Well, that would be a big thing — if you just take Batchelor’s word on it, and it was believed from now on as the truth, well…you can see how this stuff happens, why there is so much confusion and contention in religious circles over scripture and what it “really means”.

    Take into account also, that when an author writes a book, he is by necessity almost, required to cover new ground, usually in this day and age with some shocking revelations on the subject. This “pork” thing could be such a tactic.

    This more complete overview technique seems to be the trend though, in academic circles, on Zen too — tying it in with a much more inclusive social and political (and the money aspect), and re-looking at the in-house writings in relation to a larger cultural panorama. It looks like the Scientific skepticism vs. the Religious Belief battle that has smoldered now for centuries, flaming out again…

    Also, Batchelor tends to give the view that Mahakashyap’s strong taking over of the Sangha after Buddha’s death was most likely a good thing, as maybe with a weaker person, Buddhism would not have survived the future turmoils so well, maybe even would have died a very early death. But, remember, Batchelor may have an agenda here, as he seems to be a Zen adept, with time spent in a Korean Zen monastery as part of his Buddhist resume (note the brown robe outfit, that’s an Asian Zen thing) And Mahakashap, as we all know from Osho’s talks, was the “first partriarch” of Zen. So, Mr. M. comes out looking good in this story…is it perception, praise, or just propaganda?

    As always, i think it’s good to reserve final judgements on the veracity or untruth of anything you see or read or hear — admittedly not an easy thing to do.

  7. amano says:

    ;please do not post long messages, they are too complicated and waste of time. make it short and nice and clean and full of inside

  8. Punam says:

    “when people meditate,we lose interest to use the mind”

    ……..for starting wars, building bombs, for building empires, for eugenical engineering, for rape and pillage, for worrying, for hateing , for ………………..

  9. Punam says:

    ……so I have heard!

  10. Fresch says:

    Since I want to occupy my mind with anything else but my own real work, I have been very excited about this Buddha’s story and it’s clear similarities with osho of course.

    Osho knew everything about how religious movements would be born after the masters are gone.

    Thank you Shantam for this article!
    Very good points Oshobob!!!

    Shortly: Like Buddha, Osho had very influential followers, was able to deal with “princes and politicians”, was to set up /establish sanyas community from very early on, after the Ranch was travelling and not received by people ( and lost his influential followers), was poisoned (perhaps that the publicity or orthodox Christians everywhere did not have to poison us with their graph), and above all just maybe, let’s say maybe, predicted the split (power struggle) between devotional and zen with his own movement…what do you think? And do we need this split?

  11. Fresch says:

    I wrote earlier that Osho did not know where the social movement of sanyas would lead to…It might not be true, perhaps he did know.

    Individual’s mind works as a computer, we are not very awake…so as collectivise, we are moving as a computer programme for religious movements, collective of the minds, it’s as simple as that. Wow…how low…horrible, is there anything else to do, but dynamic….of course?

  12. Punam says:

    The beautiful paradox is that we are alone.
    Time and time again Osho reminded me of this.
    And yet it appears not.
    I crave the company of the movement to support me in my time of doubt.
    Then I can’t stand the movement with all its nonsense.
    So I long to find out who i am, rid myself of the doubts and come back and kick the movements ass.
    But it doesn’t work cos of the doubts so i crave the movement again to support me in my time of doubt.
    A circle game.
    I think they call it Samsara with a dash of Spiritual Materialism!

  13. Punam says:

    No no, got that wrong, I FEAR the movement with all its nonsense……would be more accurate.

  14. frank says:

    its all interesting stuff.
    but as oshobob points out,this guy could well be a bit of a latterday lobsang with his
    “dodgy bacon butties ensuring the long-term survival of buddhist dharma” story.
    but i like it .
    tho` going out on an overdose of mushrooms could be good,too.

    who was it that said:
    “the universe is not made up of atoms
    it`s made up of stories”
    ?

  15. frank says:

    punam,
    i think that what you describe is in enlightenment parlance,a “koan”
    psychologically,it could well be what gregory bateson called a “double bind”which he speculated was the basis of schizophrenia.

    you must love your mummy.
    you must be free
    you must be enlightened
    you must love your guru to become enlightened.
    you must rid yourself of doubt
    you must get out of your mind
    etc etc.

    i think osho laid these double binds on his disciples.
    be yourself/surrender
    with the aim of them being koans leading to a breakthru….
    maybe the oucome didnt match the aim
    and we all just went bonkers to varying degrees.

    did some one say why are all sannyasins fucked-up?
    well,that could be it…..

  16. Fresch says:

    No frank, we are not fucked up. Not at all..if I knew any so effective paths like sanyas, I would cry my heart out, but drop sanyas. But, I do not think so. Perhaps I could have a use of a zen-monk jumping on my head to wake me up…but it’s not my path, I would just hurt my head:)

    The problem is that on the way, we get hurt and closed up, we get ambitious and get closed up, we fall in love and get closed up, we get tired and closed up…etc. The path is long, and we have to come back many times. You know, also come back to Sanyas News is a good rehearsal :D DD

    But Frank, I like your description of “double bind” from zen koan to schizophrenia – way of the sanyas…Osho is just doing his job of fucking our minds up. That is his job, why to complain afterwards.

    I am not interested in this particular Batchelor-guy, but Buddha’s life story, especially in context with Osho’s story or sanyas story …Oshobob, you really are very good at research, I have already quoted you to other people:)
    Punam “I crave the company of the movement to support me in my time of doubt.
Then I can’t stand the movement with all its nonsense.” Yes, that’s how it is, so true, so true an a “vicious circle”:) Luckily we are not a cult, but free spirits, we can go in and out – and perhaps make circle some day. Just maybe.

  17. Punam says:

    Yes Fresch i think we can have our cake and eat it, as the saying goes! Secretly us sannyassins know that, cheeky master deserves cheeky disciples!
    Dodgy bacon butties………thanks Frank………this is fun!

    Mucho amores one and all!

  18. frank says:

    yo,oshobob,
    fleshpit is quoting you to “other people”.
    deservedly,you`ve hit the big time.
    and she`s “not interested in this particular batchelor guy” (stephen)

    so how many batchelor guys does that leave?
    there`s a conspiracy no-brainer,man!
    bob,i reckon you`re in with a shout .
    keep rollin out those smooth talking zen quotes out and she`ll be putty in your hand b the end ofthe week.
    that`s a promise.

  19. oshobob says:

    well ok frank,
    it’s the end of the week already, by my reckoning,
    so some smooth Zen quotes…?

    here’s one…

    “Why did Bodhidharma come from South Africa to the West of America, get a job at RIMU, and then end up carrying an Uzi next to Osho’s car on drive-bys?”

    well, that wasn’t that smooth, but still, it’s a good “gong an” (J., koan)…maybe Freschie can unravel it for us.

  20. Fresch says:

    we need more women here…hello there, help me out!

  21. Fresch says:

    Where are you Anand, Garimo and anybody new? Women pls, speak up.

    Chetna, do you know any story of history connected to you life? There is a reason, I am asking it. You would help a friend….By the way Chetna, is your friend with HIV a sanyasin? That is so sad, I hope your friend is meditating (any meditations)…

  22. garimo says:

    Why are someone else’s bodies chromosomes and hormones so important to you? Does the concept of male or female somehow improve writing skills or reading comprehension?

    I’m thinking a “X” or “Y” does not enhance abilities to have a meaningful message?

    More than half the time I think I must have no clue as to what people are going on about… and I don’t think assigning a gender to their comments would help me any.

    You’re going on about other’s meditation… and yet think you’re your body?

  23. garimo says:

    >>I’m thinking a “X” or “Y” does not enhance abilities to have a meaningful >>message.

    Hmmm, that’s a statement… not so much a question.

  24. garimo says:

    I probably should have just again said… “it’s Swami” and left it at that.

  25. prem bubbie says:

    Punam… “when people mediate, we lose interest to use the mind”… you forgot to mention- kidnapping and trafficking children.. the US state Dept. issued a warning today, for those people interested in adopting children, to avoid Nepal. Seems that many children from Nepal were either kidnapped or sold by parents to child traffickers and the Nepali adoption authorities either can’t stop it or are involved in trafficking.. So much for the “revolution” in nepal… Hey, how about you politicians stop spending so much time in the Osho ashram and do some real work for a change!!! All that meditating still hasn’t done much to wake people up, especially for politicians, or was it done for the public relations and the camera. Quick Sannyasnews- do some investigative journalism for a change and not PR stories for a meditation center. Long Live the Revolution!!!!! OH, communism isn’t en vogue anymore- tell that to the Nepalis

  26. Fresch says:

    “I’m thinking a “X” or “Y” does not enhance abilities to have a meaningful message?” I agree Garimo…but the flavour of the messages are often different; x seems to come out softer between the lines and when we loose the interest to use the mind, perhaps touch of heart would be the next step ( an advice for myself). Men often think they figured it out in their minds…yeah true: in their minds. That’s why women are needed in these discussions.

    And yeah garimo, how not to be attached to your body? Impossible.

    I have heard that people are flocking to meditate to Nepal. At the moment they are laughing…I might help Nepalese politicians by going to meditate there myself . If Indians are really kneeling on the floor for master Osho, maybe I just join them. But I will not sit aside:)

    However, I have had it difficult to become friends with Indians; woman keep their distance and men either behave very either romantically or overly sexually…but some who have been to the West are incredible fun to be with. I could learn something there.

  27. chetna says:

    Well, once I thought Kranti was a woman and so was Fresch …so here you go I can’t distinguish!

    I think when it comes to love for the Master this love is the same volcano for every living being. Do you remember a story of a bird that used to come and sit by his side during some early discourses (i can’t remember the place)? the bird was killed by the storm trying to get to Osho eventually and Osho said that that bird loved him more than anybody sitting in front of him (meaning people).

    Fresch, you say if there was something better you would have dropped sannyas. Really?
    This never even crossed my mind and in fact I am sure there are other most beautiful paths as strong as Osho’s but for different kind of people.

    I actually never liked sannyasin’s arrogance towards other paths. Osho was a Master and he criticised for some deep reasons and His words were never as arrogant as his sannyasins interpret.

    I feel all Masters help and as beautiful, but I cannot be a politician when it comes to Osho checking out who will take me “there” first.

    Being with Osho for me is the final destination and then inshallah

    It is better to fail properly with one paths than try out different ones. But that’s my feeling, some may benefit by jumping, who knows?

  28. Anand says:

    One of the ashram properties ‘SANAI’, which is the property down the road close to the German Bakery has been sold. People are moving out. One small part of it did not belong to Osho Resort, but the major part of it did.

  29. garimo says:

    >>Men often think they figured it out in their minds…yeah true: in their minds. That’s why women are needed in these discussions.

    So, you’re a man then?

  30. oshobob says:

    there it is,
    Miss Marple was right it seems (isn’t she always).
    the Resort is starting to sell out.
    first piece gone.

    question of the day…

    What do both Agatha Christie and Winston Churchill have in common, unknown to most people?

  31. Fresch says:

    Sorry garimo and chetna for my unconscious streaming.. I have to look at my self with this, I am clearly a woman.

    Chetna, I would be very surprised if I ever dropped Osho since I have been with him for 20 years and he is the only not-dysfunctional relationship with a man I have…:) Whatever way I approach him, cannot feel but love…you know how it is.

    However, is it happening the split, selling out of the commune as Anand is saying? Jayesh might be fed up with all the negativity he is receiving and escaping to Bahamas? So, I get to go to the Resort future the Ashram to kneel down on the floor.

  32. frank says:

    oshobob,
    quiznight at jackass news?
    nice one,
    mine`s apint and a packet of pork scratchings-and the same again for my mate buddha in the corner….

    i know this one…
    they were both er disciples..
    no,dysfunctional,
    er dyspeptic….
    dislocated…
    disinfected…
    oh,sod it…….

  33. frank says:

    i liked that story about osho in a hundred tales … when he was travelling around india giving talks,and at one place a pye dog tacked onto the scene and sat close to osho staring at him every day at satsang.
    (think of how indians treat dogs,normally)
    and when he left town,all the disciples were there to see him off and as the train pulled out the dog was running alongside,and was the last one running as the other disciples fell away.
    bhagwan turned to ma jyoti and said”he is a very advanced soul”

    what a joker…..

    .

  34. frank says:

    i can just see him going back to his bunk and laughing his skull off.
    disciples eh? bloody hell.

  35. oshobob says:

    frank,
    so
    talking about dogs and buddhas,
    and smooth zen koans
    and jokes…
    the well known story with Chinese zen master Zhaozhou (J, Joshu)
    was,
    does a dog have buddha-nature?
    he said “Wu” (J, Mu) — “without”…
    ok, enigmatic enough (next time he was asked, he said “with”)…
    but that is nothing compared to the story of some monk asking Linji (J., Rinzai)
    what is the buddha?
    zen master Linji says,
    a dried shit-stick.

    classic chinese. classic.
    and funny too — you gotta love it.

  36. prem bubbie says:

    Shanti/Fresch baby- you say you are a women, easier said- how about proving you’re a woman and showing your tits to all of us. What have you got to lose? Or are they so saggy that you need to hide them? Most of us men don’t care, we’ll suck on anything that’s on a female!!! Please, can we have a peek?

  37. prem bubbie says:

    “A dried shit stick”…. Back in the good ole days, before the invention of toilet paper and wiping with the left hand(India), there was the shit stick- or was it a “ZEN” stick? Tough to distinguish- some people need the former cracked over their heads, like most who post here!!

  38. Swami Detective says:

    Togo: Le fils de l’ancien dictateur Gnassingbé Eyadéma aurait reçu 60,9% des voix, selon la commission électorale.

  39. frank says:

    oshobob,isn`t the correct translation
    “shit-wiping stick”?

    definitely comic.

    knowing the love for a bit of knock-about comedy those zen guys had,i imagine that the master delivered the shit-shtick one liner whilst simultaneously administering a blow to the relevant part of the body of the disciple.

    shit-wiping stick
    zen stick
    slapstick
    there`s no question,these disciples certainly got a bit of stick…

    and have you heard about the time when the master rinzai was asked
    “does a cow have buddha-nature?”
    he replied “mu”

  40. Anand says:

    Fartbrain Bubbie came out again after buying his Sunday Oregonian. Today he took his weekly shower but outside showers do not manage to clean his brain and his repressed sexuality. Get a dog!

  41. Anand says:

    Fartbrain Bubbie from Seattle is not only brain dead and anti Osho and anti sannyas, but also a chauvinist PIG!

  42. Fresch says:

    Chao creatures,

    No dog for bubbie Anand, remember the dog might have a soul, but I am sure bobbie would love the stick.

    Joyty’s book was really strange experience, also because there was nothing from her personal life without Osho. I really loved the behind the door gossiping style of it, like she was telling about Osho’s healing power (that he him self always denied). I understand that better now because when I started to meditate I would have been more interested with that kind of stuff instead of focusing on meditation. I often think that oooohhhh, I have been lucky in spite of my self…of course till my greedy mind starts again.So, in addition enlightenment envy I now suffer from not-being-close-with the master-envy as well. How am I going to manage? Except for doing dynamic…

    Ok frank, I did use your Rinzai-cow-joke in an e-mail, but I did not tell the source.

  43. oshobob says:

    right, that’s right on the ‘stick’ story…
    now you have to ‘get it’…good luck…

    there was a rare woman in Chinese Zen called
    Iron-Grinder Liu.
    she got this name because whenever she met the young zen monks wandering around
    she would grind their ‘minds’ to iron dust
    with a few deft remarks.

    Her master was Guishan (J., Isan), who Osho has titled a book after — Isan: No Footprints in the Blue Sky.

    Guishan used to refer Iron-Grinder Liu as “the old cow”.

    Here’s a story from the zen Book of Serenity…

    Iron Grinder Liu went to Guishan: Guishan said, “Old cow, you’ve come?”
    The Iron-Grinder said, “Tomorrow on Taishan there’s a big gathering and feast — are you going, teacher?”
    Guishan lay down, sprawled out.
    The Iron-Grinder immediately left.

    now, you have to ‘get it’….good luck.
    (hint: Osho has a book titled The Great Pilgrimage: From Here to Here).

  44. Fresch says:

    hahhhaaaaa, of course we are too lazy to move any where. sanyas news is the best. sweet oshobob.

  45. Fresch says:

    However, I will be on the mountains some time in the future. Why would anybody be here and now?

  46. oshobob says:

    and speaking of people in the mountains, Swami Arun and a few others have just visited the old Ranch in Oregon USA just a few days ago, and have posted photos of the tour at old Rajneeshpuram, at the homepage of Tapoban’s website.

    here’s the link on their homepage:

    http://www.tapoban.com/

  47. prem bubbie says:

    big boobs Fresch… Shall we now call you “old cow”, or maybe “mad cow”? The shit stick cleaner Anand is out from under his rock… he still can’t take a joke!!! Quick Rinzai, whack Anand with your shit stick, it’ll be clean when you get it back…

  48. prem bubbie says:

    i hear Arun is going to offer some mala beads and trinkets worth $24 US dollars for the ranch….he’s hoping to start a “New World Order”, complete with a Walmart, 18plex cinema, and rodeo(to bring in the locals). He’s taking job applications now, I even heard he offered the managers job to Sheela, i don’t think she’ll take it though, life is too good bossing around old people in Switzerland!! Any takers? Sounds like the Dutch buying Manhattan Island all over again!!

  49. Fresch says:

    You are such a poor little thing bobbie, but you accidently solved my problem. Because in spite of lack of Jai ! Indian friend’s advice, now I know at least from where to start becoming friends with them: I just become a holy cow. Good, so you see, hanging out with us, your wisdom grows. And where are you going to grow from worm?

  50. prem bubbie says:

    a worm is the master recycler, it takes people’s shit and turns it into fertile soil—even yours Fresch!!! Tell me truthfully, why did you change your name from Shanti to Fresch? Trying to “reinvent” yourself- Again? Another lame effort by another sannyasin to forget their past!!

  51. Fresch says:

    For some people it seems impossible to let go of the past and go for new adventures, because they have all these vague excuses about going to the mountains. As Keerti put it “I live dangerously”, I see that as courage.

    Well, my friend’s 20-year-old very sweet daughter might join me, but I do not know if it is a good idea. She thinks she will find an Indian prince the teach her meditation, and I do not know how to tell her that Indians think western woman are tramps…it was written here clearly. Should I show it to her?

  52. Anand says:

    Hey Fartbrain Bubbie, when are you visiting Florida? Or maybe you should visit Las Vegas, prostitutes are legal there…good for you, to let of some steam.
    And get it, Freschie is not Shanti…..brain dead?

  53. frank says:

    those zen stories are

    some kind of theatre of the absurd

    as samuel becket said:

    nothing is better than nothing

  54. shantam prem says:

    Bob,
    Your comment below is worth repeating and deserve all the attention and i request you to send this to Mr. Batchelor in your articulate English.
    oshobob // Mar 4, 2010 at 11:56 pm
    Mr. Batchelor must explain how come a life long vegetarian accepts a pig Steak.
    There is a light year distance between the Mashrooms which pigs like to eat and the pigs meat.

  55. frank says:

    it`s a well known fact,as testified earlier by punam,that when vegetarians “fall off the wagon”,the most popular choice is a bacon buttie.
    clearly batchelor`s ham and mushroom soup is quite accurate here..

    personally,i think he is being paid by the dalai lama,who is trying to get himself off the hook for the accumulated bad karma of all the full englsh breakfasts that he has tucked into over the years

    but it all shows how mainstream buddhism has become these days ..
    buddha is now presented as a fat guy with a shaved head who enjoys a full eb,and is partial to the odd bag of porkscratchings with his mates of an evening…

    well,they predicted it didn`t they?
    the matreya was never going to be a guy sittng on the floor in a lotus,but seated on a chair..
    probably a barstool.

  56. Fresch says:

    Anand, you are giving very practical and sound resolution. Yes. I wonder who would not agree with it.

    I am interested in hearing martyn’s opinion on this because he has thought all about the politics. Are we planning a revolution martyn?

    And Keerti, interaction would be interesting (more than a one time speech).